WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.590 Neil McPhedran: Happy 50th, Jen. 00:00:02.190 --> 00:00:02.490 Jennifer-Lee: I know. 00:00:02.490 --> 00:00:04.110 What kind of present do I get? 00:00:04.110 --> 00:00:07.569 I feel like we've been together for 50 episodes now. 00:00:08.140 --> 00:00:10.110 What is that in anniversary terms? 00:00:11.280 --> 00:00:11.820 Neil McPhedran: I don't know. 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:12.780 That's a good question. 00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:13.620 Jennifer-Lee: Is it wood? 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:14.429 Is it gold? 00:00:14.429 --> 00:00:14.759 I don't know. 00:00:16.259 --> 00:00:18.930 Neil McPhedran: All I can say is I'm really happy to have gotten 00:00:18.930 --> 00:00:20.850 to episode 50 with you, Jen. 00:00:21.299 --> 00:00:22.949 Jennifer-Lee: What did the older people say? 00:00:22.949 --> 00:00:24.780 A hundred more with you? 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:26.400 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:29.670 We've learned so much from so many incredible higher education 00:00:29.909 --> 00:00:30.990 podcasters along the way. 00:00:31.589 --> 00:00:31.980 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:00:32.040 --> 00:00:38.100 I've learned so much from you and our podcast guests, and I 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:40.170 can't wait for more episodes. 00:00:40.754 --> 00:00:41.385 Cheers. 00:00:42.135 --> 00:00:43.394 We need some bubbly. 00:00:43.845 --> 00:00:44.504 We'll get on that. 00:00:47.445 --> 00:00:50.775 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education 00:00:50.775 --> 00:00:52.815 podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:53.085 --> 00:00:56.475 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company. 00:00:57.404 --> 00:00:59.745 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations, 00:00:59.745 --> 00:01:01.695 podcasting is broadcasting. 00:01:01.695 --> 00:01:03.315 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:01:03.315 --> 00:01:06.464 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and 00:01:06.464 --> 00:01:08.324 we can all learn from each other. 00:01:08.550 --> 00:01:12.929 Neil McPhedran: That's right Jen, and a good place to learn and find 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:20.520 other higher education podcasters is HigherEdPods.com, where there is over 00:01:20.520 --> 00:01:24.750 a thousand other higher education podcasts now in the directory. 00:01:25.380 --> 00:01:26.220 Jennifer-Lee: That's exciting. 00:01:26.310 --> 00:01:30.150 One of those is the podcast that we're talking about today, Normal Curves. 00:01:30.329 --> 00:01:31.179 Neil McPhedran: Yes, you're right, Jen. 00:01:31.229 --> 00:01:34.560 Normal Curves is definitely one of the podcasts that you can find 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:39.989 in Higher Ed Pods and actually Normal Curves is a newish podcast. 00:01:39.989 --> 00:01:46.139 So they launched, I think they've got seven episodes out there, and it's from 00:01:46.169 --> 00:01:52.440 two professors, Kristin Sainani, who is a professor at Stanford University 00:01:52.500 --> 00:01:57.419 and Regina Nuzzo who is a professor at Gallaudet University, and she's actually 00:01:57.419 --> 00:02:00.300 a part-time lecturer at Stanford as well. 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:06.419 I really love their podcast, Jen, and I know you've enjoyed listening 00:02:06.419 --> 00:02:08.220 to a few of their episodes too. 00:02:09.404 --> 00:02:12.535 Jennifer-Lee: I love it, and I love the fact that it's called Normal Curves: 00:02:12.554 --> 00:02:15.135 Sexy Science and Serious Statistics. 00:02:15.374 --> 00:02:19.994 Because sometimes I feel like with science we take ourself too serious. 00:02:19.994 --> 00:02:23.714 So I really love the fact that they are bubbly personalities. 00:02:23.894 --> 00:02:27.885 They're women, they're scientific journalists, and 00:02:27.885 --> 00:02:29.144 they're professors as well. 00:02:29.144 --> 00:02:33.704 So I'm excited to talk to 'em about some of these topics, like the one which, you 00:02:33.704 --> 00:02:37.809 know, I was just listening to, Hookworms: Can Parasites Improve Your Health? 00:02:37.869 --> 00:02:39.640 Which sounds kind of gross, but I'm excited. 00:02:40.359 --> 00:02:43.089 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, so we wanted to chat with them because we really 00:02:43.089 --> 00:02:48.459 wanted to get into their journey around launching a podcast and how that's 00:02:48.459 --> 00:02:50.230 gone now that they're fresh into that. 00:02:50.230 --> 00:02:53.529 So let's just get into our conversation. 00:02:53.890 --> 00:02:55.209 Jennifer-Lee: Let's get started. 00:02:57.249 --> 00:02:58.839 Neil McPhedran: Welcome, Kristin and Regina. 00:02:58.869 --> 00:03:01.329 Thanks for joining us here on Continuing Studies. 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:03.174 It's so nice to have you here today. 00:03:03.605 --> 00:03:04.255 Regina Nuzzo: Good to be here. 00:03:05.279 --> 00:03:06.029 Kristin Sainani: Great to be here Neil. 00:03:06.029 --> 00:03:06.809 Thanks for having us. 00:03:07.290 --> 00:03:11.159 Neil McPhedran: So first off, you two are longtime friends, 00:03:11.189 --> 00:03:12.689 if I understand that correctly. 00:03:12.689 --> 00:03:16.140 And you were actually students together at Stanford, is that correct? 00:03:16.589 --> 00:03:17.790 Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, a couple years ago. 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:19.679 Kristin Sainani: Just a few. 00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:21.570 Regina Nuzzo: Back in the day. 00:03:21.570 --> 00:03:21.869 Yes. 00:03:21.869 --> 00:03:26.549 We were grad students at the same time, and we were friends because 00:03:26.549 --> 00:03:28.409 our boyfriends were friends. 00:03:28.830 --> 00:03:30.150 Kristin Sainani: Yeah, they introduced us. 00:03:30.210 --> 00:03:31.440 The boyfriend's long gone though. 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:33.750 Neil McPhedran: The boyfriends are long gone. 00:03:33.750 --> 00:03:36.990 But you two and your friendship is longstanding and now 00:03:36.990 --> 00:03:38.790 you're podcast hosts together. 00:03:39.200 --> 00:03:39.820 Kristin Sainani: Yes. 00:03:40.100 --> 00:03:40.450 Neil McPhedran: Excellent. 00:03:40.475 --> 00:03:43.170 Regina Nuzzo: I don't, I think if you had asked us back in the day, will 00:03:43.170 --> 00:03:46.829 you be podcasting together, first of all, we would say, what is a podcast? 00:03:46.950 --> 00:03:47.579 But yes. 00:03:47.579 --> 00:03:48.960 Second of all, no. 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.810 You don't think of these things in grad school, how lasting they are, 00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:56.310 but it's really the basis for a good collegial relationship and a friendship. 00:03:56.310 --> 00:03:57.240 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I like that. 00:03:57.570 --> 00:03:57.929 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:03:57.929 --> 00:04:02.070 And you have a podcast called Normal Curves, and I was listening 00:04:02.070 --> 00:04:03.819 to an episode today on Hookworms. 00:04:03.839 --> 00:04:05.969 I wasn't sure at first, I had to tell Neil. 00:04:06.359 --> 00:04:09.510 I looked at some of your other episodes 'cause I was scared to listen to that 00:04:09.510 --> 00:04:13.619 one because when I saw worms, I didn't realize they were worms for good. 00:04:14.339 --> 00:04:18.435 I thought, I thought it was like, what happens if you contract a worm? 00:04:18.435 --> 00:04:20.115 And I was like, terrified. 00:04:20.325 --> 00:04:22.575 And he is like, no, no, you gotta like listen to it. 00:04:22.575 --> 00:04:26.794 So I still don't think I would try it, but it sounds really interesting 00:04:26.794 --> 00:04:30.724 like back in the day when you watch those shows about the kings and 00:04:30.724 --> 00:04:32.645 queens and they're like using leeches. 00:04:32.824 --> 00:04:35.385 Anyways, tell us a little bit more about your podcast. 00:04:35.405 --> 00:04:39.055 How did you guys end up, you're friends, and you both work at 00:04:39.055 --> 00:04:41.935 Stanford, but like, how were you like, oh, let's create a podcast 00:04:41.935 --> 00:04:44.354 together and talk about weird things? 00:04:44.715 --> 00:04:47.265 Kristin Sainani: So I invited Regina to come co-teach a 00:04:47.265 --> 00:04:48.734 course with me at Stanford. 00:04:48.734 --> 00:04:52.364 So she actually flies out from Gallaudet a couple weekends in the 00:04:52.364 --> 00:04:53.955 summer to teach this course with me. 00:04:54.255 --> 00:04:56.864 And we do it, uh, flipped classroom. 00:04:56.864 --> 00:05:00.705 So we pre-taped the lectures and when we taped the lectures, we decided 00:05:00.705 --> 00:05:03.645 to do them video podcast style. 00:05:03.974 --> 00:05:06.734 So we have a conversation, we talk about case studies. 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:11.114 And our students the first year said, hey, we're watching these on 00:05:11.114 --> 00:05:13.775 Friday night instead of Netflix. 00:05:13.844 --> 00:05:17.174 Um, possibly just buttering us up, but we think it was genuine and 00:05:17.174 --> 00:05:18.405 they asked us if we had a podcast. 00:05:18.405 --> 00:05:20.764 So that's, the seed was planted. 00:05:20.820 --> 00:05:23.789 Regina Nuzzo: But then the second cohort and the third cohort did the same thing. 00:05:23.789 --> 00:05:28.140 So we thought, oh, maybe, maybe we should check this out and actually do it. 00:05:28.289 --> 00:05:32.190 They wanted to keep on learning statistics, which was really exciting, 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:34.560 and I think shows the power of podcasting. 00:05:35.039 --> 00:05:36.419 And learning through conversation. 00:05:36.570 --> 00:05:38.370 Neil McPhedran: Is that ultimately sort of what you were hoping to 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:42.000 achieve from the podcast then, is just to continue that learning? 00:05:42.479 --> 00:05:47.229 Or what did you hope to achieve, or what do you hope to achieve from this podcast? 00:05:47.909 --> 00:05:49.559 Regina Nuzzo: Definitely teaching. 00:05:49.559 --> 00:05:55.079 Kristin and I feel very strongly about understanding evidence, understanding 00:05:55.079 --> 00:06:00.239 statistics, and being able to apply this in your everyday life. 00:06:00.299 --> 00:06:05.499 And so we choose the fun subject like hookworms as a way to 00:06:05.499 --> 00:06:07.839 investigate the science behind that. 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:13.329 Also, other things that we have planned, but along the way you learn statistics 00:06:13.329 --> 00:06:19.359 and evidence and epidemiology and research methods, and we delight in that because 00:06:19.359 --> 00:06:25.119 Kristin and I are also science journalist, the ability to teach and entertain at the 00:06:25.119 --> 00:06:26.834 same time, it's a very heady combination. 00:06:27.374 --> 00:06:31.265 Jennifer-Lee: Do you ever incorporate then your podcast into any of the lectures 00:06:31.265 --> 00:06:36.695 that you guys do, or use it as reference or get the students to use it as a way 00:06:36.695 --> 00:06:39.364 to get more information on a topic? 00:06:39.364 --> 00:06:42.664 Do you ever put it into tests? 00:06:42.664 --> 00:06:45.814 And I'm only asking 'cause some of the people, Neil and I have talked 00:06:45.814 --> 00:06:48.784 to have actually done this stuff with their podcasts in the past. 00:06:49.114 --> 00:06:52.114 Kristin Sainani: We are planning to, so we are not far enough along 00:06:52.114 --> 00:06:54.934 yet that we've had the opportunity to drop it in our classes. 00:06:54.934 --> 00:06:56.104 But that is the plan. 00:06:56.104 --> 00:06:59.614 And actually we do envision this as a teaching tool that others could use. 00:06:59.825 --> 00:07:03.905 And I, a friend of mine recommended it to her kids high 00:07:03.905 --> 00:07:05.645 school AP statistics teacher. 00:07:05.645 --> 00:07:08.794 So we're hoping, you know, that'll set it in motion and people will 00:07:08.794 --> 00:07:09.934 start using it as a teaching tool. 00:07:09.934 --> 00:07:10.205 Yes. 00:07:10.609 --> 00:07:13.400 Neil McPhedran: So then from an audience perspective, it is a 00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:15.020 bit more of a focused audience. 00:07:15.020 --> 00:07:18.140 Then I know we've been joking about the topics here so far, but it 00:07:18.140 --> 00:07:24.169 really is meant to be a more learning cerebral, you are digging into real 00:07:24.169 --> 00:07:28.820 statistical components and isn't necessarily for the wider audience. 00:07:29.030 --> 00:07:32.780 There is a more, a smaller sort of focused audience for this show then. 00:07:33.229 --> 00:07:34.340 Regina Nuzzo: I might disagree with that. 00:07:34.659 --> 00:07:34.951 Neil McPhedran: Okay, great. 00:07:34.951 --> 00:07:37.925 Regina Nuzzo: Kristin might agree, but we can have a little conflict on this. 00:07:37.925 --> 00:07:38.435 It'll be fun. 00:07:38.735 --> 00:07:43.265 I like the idea of people tuning in, I think there are a lot of people, just 00:07:43.265 --> 00:07:47.435 general listeners out in the world that miss school and they want to 00:07:47.435 --> 00:07:52.895 continue learning, but they don't want to take classes and listen to lectures. 00:07:52.925 --> 00:07:57.515 They want to learn through stories and fun things and people having 00:07:57.515 --> 00:07:59.225 good conversations with each other. 00:07:59.525 --> 00:08:03.245 So I think in the back of our minds, yeah, maybe kind of targeted, oh, learn. 00:08:03.559 --> 00:08:08.179 But it's combined with this idea of ambient learning, entertainment. 00:08:08.210 --> 00:08:09.530 You get something along the way. 00:08:09.710 --> 00:08:13.189 Jennifer-Lee: I agree with you, because there was a stat out a few years ago, and 00:08:13.189 --> 00:08:16.139 they said the majority of people listen to podcasts to learn something new. 00:08:16.429 --> 00:08:18.919 And that's not necessarily students, that's anybody. 00:08:19.280 --> 00:08:21.229 And that's why we listen to podcasts. 00:08:21.530 --> 00:08:22.580 So I totally agree with you. 00:08:22.580 --> 00:08:27.034 I also have to say, I just love the tagline for your podcast. 00:08:27.034 --> 00:08:30.694 So it's like Normal Curves: Sexy Science, But Serious Statistics. 00:08:30.694 --> 00:08:33.214 And I totally think that sums up exactly what you guys do. 00:08:34.194 --> 00:08:34.424 Kristin Sainani: Yeah. 00:08:34.704 --> 00:08:38.824 We might have like a primary audience in mind that's a little bit of grad 00:08:38.824 --> 00:08:42.215 students and people, young scientists trying to learn some statistics. 00:08:42.515 --> 00:08:46.055 But I think we also keep in mind that we have lots of people listening to 00:08:46.055 --> 00:08:48.694 it that are not studying statistics. 00:08:48.725 --> 00:08:49.564 My kids like it. 00:08:49.564 --> 00:08:52.175 My kids have been listening, and they just feel like it's fun to listen to. 00:08:52.580 --> 00:08:53.750 Neil McPhedran: I think that's great what you're saying. 00:08:53.800 --> 00:08:58.509 You get into the weeds enough in the statistics stuff for it to work for 00:08:58.509 --> 00:09:02.619 your grad students, but at the same time it's, Regina, as you said, it's 00:09:02.619 --> 00:09:05.170 approachable for a wider audience. 00:09:05.619 --> 00:09:10.629 Kristin Sainani: We both are advocates for making science approachable and 00:09:10.689 --> 00:09:12.670 making scientists better communicators. 00:09:12.670 --> 00:09:15.489 I have a whole course on Coursera where I'm trying to get scientists 00:09:15.489 --> 00:09:18.489 to write more clearly for everyone. 00:09:18.489 --> 00:09:20.199 So I think it's a part of our vibe as well. 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:21.159 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:26.139 So as our audience is other higher education podcasters, maybe we can 00:09:26.139 --> 00:09:29.709 just sort of get into some of the minutiae here about producing and how 00:09:29.709 --> 00:09:31.449 you launched and so on and so forth. 00:09:31.509 --> 00:09:37.839 A lot of the podcasters we've interviewed to date are more tightly 00:09:37.839 --> 00:09:39.669 aligned with their universities. 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:44.214 You've launched and you are producing Normal Curves with, from what I 00:09:44.214 --> 00:09:49.014 understand, without much support from Stanford or from Gallaudet University. 00:09:49.044 --> 00:09:50.274 That's correct, right? 00:09:51.354 --> 00:09:52.014 Regina Nuzzo: Zero support. 00:09:52.134 --> 00:09:52.614 Neil McPhedran: Okay. 00:09:52.614 --> 00:09:55.824 Because we hear a lot and just in our day-to-day work, it's 00:09:55.824 --> 00:09:58.914 like, you know, working with comms departments within schools. 00:09:58.914 --> 00:10:01.974 It's like professors approach them, I wanna start a podcast. 00:10:02.244 --> 00:10:07.674 So did you approach either of your schools for support off the bat or 00:10:07.704 --> 00:10:09.719 you just gone out on your own on this? 00:10:09.963 --> 00:10:13.003 Kristin Sainani: This was more of a pet project, so we didn't even think 00:10:13.003 --> 00:10:14.893 to approach anybody for support. 00:10:14.923 --> 00:10:17.863 It's not that they didn't support us, it's just that we just started this 00:10:17.863 --> 00:10:22.003 sort of while we're both on sabbatical and had some time for a pet project. 00:10:22.393 --> 00:10:25.183 Jennifer-Lee: Your podcast, though, is really highly produced. 00:10:25.183 --> 00:10:26.563 Do you guys do all of that? 00:10:27.103 --> 00:10:27.373 Kristin Sainani: Yes. 00:10:27.873 --> 00:10:30.883 Regina Nuzzo: Kristin is our amazing editor. 00:10:31.293 --> 00:10:33.183 Who does not like technology. 00:10:33.453 --> 00:10:37.953 So I think it makes it all the more amazing that she is doing all of that. 00:10:38.103 --> 00:10:38.253 Yes. 00:10:38.253 --> 00:10:40.953 Kristin Sainani: Well, I'm a reluctant adopter of technology, 00:10:40.953 --> 00:10:42.723 but then when I get it, I like it. 00:10:42.723 --> 00:10:45.993 But it's the bar of getting over learning something new because 00:10:45.993 --> 00:10:49.203 it's supposed to just do what you want it to do and often it doesn't. 00:10:49.203 --> 00:10:50.193 And that drives me crazy. 00:10:50.373 --> 00:10:54.843 We do have, I do send it to, I'll put a plugin for East Coast podcasting. 00:10:54.843 --> 00:10:56.527 They do the final polish on the sound. 00:10:56.697 --> 00:10:59.369 I am doing the editing out of the, you know, when we mess up 00:10:59.369 --> 00:11:01.979 and rearranging and stuff though, that was quite a learning curve. 00:11:02.236 --> 00:11:04.936 Regina Nuzzo: I think that we have certain freedom though, Neil, getting back to 00:11:04.936 --> 00:11:07.186 your question about institutional support. 00:11:07.426 --> 00:11:08.926 It's nice to be independent. 00:11:08.926 --> 00:11:12.016 You can be a iconoclastic, you can talk about your dating life, 00:11:12.016 --> 00:11:13.996 your love life, and not worry. 00:11:13.996 --> 00:11:16.186 You don't need to represent the institution. 00:11:16.606 --> 00:11:20.866 So I think it comes with certain disadvantages, but advantages as well. 00:11:21.326 --> 00:11:24.476 Neil McPhedran: You do have the disclaimer in your intro that this 00:11:24.476 --> 00:11:27.326 is separate from your day jobs, which I think is a smart thing to have 00:11:27.326 --> 00:11:30.596 in there, but that's an interesting insight that it gives you the freedom. 00:11:30.596 --> 00:11:33.266 I also think, Kristin, it's interesting that you never even thought about that. 00:11:33.266 --> 00:11:37.946 As I said, we hear this all the time, especially from the folks we work with 00:11:37.946 --> 00:11:42.211 in the comms department, that a prof sort of, here, we wanna do this, help us do 00:11:42.211 --> 00:11:43.771 this, make this happen kind of a thing. 00:11:43.771 --> 00:11:46.411 So I love that you guys kind of branched out on your own. 00:11:46.411 --> 00:11:49.801 But that said, have you heard from any of your colleagues or 00:11:49.801 --> 00:11:51.271 the universities that anyone, 00:11:51.271 --> 00:11:53.861 Kristin Sainani: Neil, I also think it's our journalistic background. 00:11:53.941 --> 00:11:57.211 So we didn't feel the need to go through the communications because 00:11:57.211 --> 00:11:58.411 we already had that training. 00:11:58.561 --> 00:12:01.471 I did reach out to somebody in communications and say, 00:12:01.471 --> 00:12:02.521 hey, can you write about it? 00:12:02.521 --> 00:12:03.601 They haven't yet, but I'm hoping. 00:12:03.901 --> 00:12:06.271 Jennifer-Lee: But the school's obviously are aware that you guys 00:12:06.271 --> 00:12:08.611 are doing it and they haven't told you to stop, so that's awesome. 00:12:09.331 --> 00:12:10.201 Regina Nuzzo: There you go. 00:12:10.446 --> 00:12:10.956 Exactly. 00:12:11.916 --> 00:12:13.566 Neil McPhedran: So let's dig into a little bit about your 00:12:13.566 --> 00:12:15.846 pre-launch process, your journey. 00:12:15.846 --> 00:12:19.986 So you got this push from some students and the two of 00:12:19.986 --> 00:12:21.306 you went, hey, let's do this. 00:12:21.306 --> 00:12:27.786 So how long from, we're gonna start a podcast to actually launching was it, 00:12:27.906 --> 00:12:31.356 and maybe just sort of tell us a little bit about that pre-launch journey. 00:12:31.626 --> 00:12:32.796 What did you learn along the way? 00:12:33.276 --> 00:12:34.566 Regina Nuzzo: That was a long journey. 00:12:34.986 --> 00:12:36.126 Kristin, 2022? 00:12:36.396 --> 00:12:39.156 Is that the first time we actually started talking about this, I think? 00:12:39.841 --> 00:12:40.411 Three years? 00:12:40.531 --> 00:12:40.891 Kristin Sainani: Yeah. 00:12:40.891 --> 00:12:44.061 We started talking about this as a book first. 00:12:44.521 --> 00:12:47.581 And then we kind of went back and forth, but we decided on podcast. 00:12:47.581 --> 00:12:51.961 We didn't really start working on it till the end of 2023. 00:12:51.961 --> 00:12:55.351 I had a little cancer in the middle, so that also, yeah, we, 00:12:55.351 --> 00:12:58.951 we had a little break in, we got kind of going on it and rolling. 00:12:59.326 --> 00:13:02.176 And then I had a stage one breast cancer. 00:13:02.206 --> 00:13:04.626 So that derailed it for a bit and then we got back on it. 00:13:04.716 --> 00:13:06.936 Regina Nuzzo: Also, we had no idea what we were doing. 00:13:07.176 --> 00:13:08.446 So it takes a little while. 00:13:08.596 --> 00:13:10.056 You're finding your way yourself. 00:13:10.356 --> 00:13:12.906 Kristin Sainani: The first episode, I think, well, didn't end up being 00:13:12.906 --> 00:13:16.266 the first episode, but the first one we taped probably took us a long 00:13:16.266 --> 00:13:17.646 time to get through the whole thing. 00:13:18.606 --> 00:13:20.436 Neil McPhedran: Did you sort of, from there, you gotta 00:13:20.436 --> 00:13:22.056 record it and listen to it. 00:13:22.056 --> 00:13:28.191 Is there stuff you can share with others out there that are at this, we 00:13:28.191 --> 00:13:32.326 wanna do a podcast, what do we need to think about before we actually launch? 00:13:32.326 --> 00:13:33.891 Kristin Sainani: I think Vitamin D might've been the first 00:13:33.891 --> 00:13:36.141 one we taped, we worked on. 00:13:36.141 --> 00:13:38.091 That was like the first one I wanted to tackle. 00:13:38.091 --> 00:13:39.081 Or was it Red Dress? 00:13:39.141 --> 00:13:39.981 One of those two. 00:13:39.981 --> 00:13:43.621 But I can tell you that it took a very long time, a ridiculously long 00:13:43.621 --> 00:13:45.061 time to get to a final product. 00:13:45.061 --> 00:13:48.151 Because we didn't really know how we were framing it or the 00:13:48.151 --> 00:13:49.281 organization, the narrative. 00:13:50.266 --> 00:13:51.106 And alcohol as well. 00:13:51.106 --> 00:13:52.486 Yeah, we did many iterations, yeah. 00:13:52.916 --> 00:13:55.726 Regina Nuzzo: Kristin I think had a good insight that I resisted 00:13:55.726 --> 00:13:57.016 at first, but I will call it out. 00:13:57.016 --> 00:13:58.516 She said, we just need to start. 00:13:58.516 --> 00:14:03.496 We have no idea what we're doing, so let's just go into the booth, turn it on, record 00:14:03.496 --> 00:14:10.216 and just start talking because the only way to climb a mountain is just to start. 00:14:10.786 --> 00:14:13.606 So there were a lot of iterations in there. 00:14:14.341 --> 00:14:14.641 Kristin Sainani: Yes. 00:14:14.641 --> 00:14:16.441 And I also like to research a lot. 00:14:16.441 --> 00:14:21.451 So some of those, I did quite a bit of reading of papers to prep, 00:14:21.811 --> 00:14:24.181 but then we just went in and talked about like, oh, I found this. 00:14:24.181 --> 00:14:24.631 I found that. 00:14:25.261 --> 00:14:27.211 Jennifer-Lee: That's so important though, because I was gonna say, 00:14:27.211 --> 00:14:30.871 you've gotta get in there and start sometimes, but it's always important 00:14:30.961 --> 00:14:32.941 to be prepped for your podcast. 00:14:32.941 --> 00:14:37.046 Which brings me to, how much research do you guys do for these topics? 00:14:37.046 --> 00:14:38.936 Because obviously you're giving statistics. 00:14:38.996 --> 00:14:42.076 You have to give out information that is proper. 00:14:42.806 --> 00:14:45.746 And a lot of people don't realize, like to do a statistics podcast. 00:14:45.746 --> 00:14:47.186 It's not like an easy feat. 00:14:47.186 --> 00:14:49.526 So how much research goes into each episode? 00:14:50.716 --> 00:14:51.106 Regina Nuzzo: A lot. 00:14:52.576 --> 00:14:55.336 Kristin Sainani: But this is where Regina's got it down a little better 00:14:55.336 --> 00:14:59.596 than me because I tend to fall down a rabbit hole and I'm like, I'm going 00:14:59.596 --> 00:15:04.186 to research all of vitamin D and like, you know, five weekends later. 00:15:04.486 --> 00:15:08.716 Whereas Regina has been more disciplined and been able to stick to a few papers. 00:15:09.801 --> 00:15:11.301 And we can really dig into those. 00:15:11.484 --> 00:15:13.434 Regina Nuzzo: I think you can see the two sides of us come 00:15:13.434 --> 00:15:17.204 out with this because we're both professor and science journalists. 00:15:17.604 --> 00:15:20.184 So professors say, ooh, these are great facts. 00:15:20.184 --> 00:15:22.794 I wanna put this in here because I learned so much about it. 00:15:23.184 --> 00:15:24.804 And surely it's important. 00:15:24.984 --> 00:15:29.334 And surely everyone else wants to know all of the details and all of the great story. 00:15:29.334 --> 00:15:34.674 And then the science journalist in us say, wait a minute, just because you think 00:15:34.674 --> 00:15:38.594 it's interesting and you've learned it does not mean that everyone else needs 00:15:38.594 --> 00:15:42.494 to learn it or should learn it if it doesn't help the story, the narrative. 00:15:43.034 --> 00:15:45.974 So I think you see a swinging wildly back and forth between 00:15:45.974 --> 00:15:48.284 those two personas when we prepare. 00:15:48.914 --> 00:15:50.594 Jennifer-Lee: And I think you're doing a really good job because even 00:15:50.594 --> 00:15:53.624 though this is directed, like you were mentioning earlier, to students and 00:15:53.624 --> 00:15:57.524 people would understand these topics, what you guys are talking about, but 00:15:57.529 --> 00:16:01.304 like Neil said, you're not limiting your audience because you're not putting 00:16:01.304 --> 00:16:05.624 it in such a high category that I was actually able to understand everything. 00:16:05.624 --> 00:16:07.849 Like, I love the Red Dress episode. 00:16:07.849 --> 00:16:09.709 I almost kind of want to go buy a red dress. 00:16:09.979 --> 00:16:13.039 You kind of do the thing like The Magic School Bus does for kids. 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:17.149 It's like you are putting it in layman's terms that I understand, 00:16:17.149 --> 00:16:19.159 but it's a fun atmosphere. 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.679 Like you've got The Magic School Bus effect going on. 00:16:21.739 --> 00:16:23.389 Regina Nuzzo: I love that so much. 00:16:23.719 --> 00:16:24.099 Thank you. 00:16:24.289 --> 00:16:24.919 I'm stealing that. 00:16:25.009 --> 00:16:26.899 Neil McPhedran: The Magic School Bus. 00:16:26.899 --> 00:16:27.569 I like that, Jen. 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:29.179 Jennifer-Lee: Magic School Bus effect. 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:29.599 Neil McPhedran: Yep. 00:16:29.599 --> 00:16:30.259 There you go. 00:16:30.709 --> 00:16:31.729 Kristin Sainani: We're gonna use that in marketing. 00:16:32.134 --> 00:16:34.504 Neil McPhedran: Jen did ask you a little bit about your process. 00:16:34.564 --> 00:16:39.064 You're on two different ends of the country, three times zones 00:16:39.064 --> 00:16:45.604 away, and you're doing a lot of the editing and production yourselves. 00:16:45.604 --> 00:16:48.634 So maybe just, um, could you just share a little bit more about your 00:16:48.634 --> 00:16:52.954 process and how you guys collaborate together in two different time zones? 00:16:53.614 --> 00:16:57.694 Regina Nuzzo: So the recording process does present some challenges. 00:16:57.724 --> 00:17:01.864 At first, we tried me flying out to California, where we would sit 00:17:01.864 --> 00:17:03.604 next to each other in the booth. 00:17:03.964 --> 00:17:06.814 I'm glad actually we started that way because I feel like there's a 00:17:06.814 --> 00:17:10.264 certain synergy that happens when you get two people to together. 00:17:10.384 --> 00:17:13.174 We have now switched to, time zones are still a problem. 00:17:13.174 --> 00:17:17.254 So I end up working a little later, but me in my closet, in 00:17:17.254 --> 00:17:21.484 my apartment, where I am now, and Kristin has a nice booth to work in. 00:17:21.979 --> 00:17:24.709 Kristin Sainani: Yes, I have access to a booth and Regina is in her closet. 00:17:26.539 --> 00:17:30.799 Neil McPhedran: So each of you picks a, a topic or a focus, and then you 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.379 research up front, and then you come together and you start recording? 00:17:33.379 --> 00:17:37.144 And then Kristin, you're doing the sort of first cut of the editing 00:17:37.144 --> 00:17:40.444 and you get some outside help for the final post production? 00:17:40.474 --> 00:17:42.694 Kristin Sainani: So we're switching off leading the topics. 00:17:42.724 --> 00:17:46.354 And what we do is one person goes off and researches, and then we 00:17:46.354 --> 00:17:49.804 get together and do sort of a first take of talking it through. 00:17:49.804 --> 00:17:53.614 And basically it's one of us asking a lot of questions and also us 00:17:53.614 --> 00:17:56.764 identifying what are the statistical topics that we wanna bring out because 00:17:56.764 --> 00:17:57.814 we can't talk about all of them. 00:17:57.814 --> 00:17:59.764 So we have to pick a few per episode. 00:18:00.574 --> 00:18:03.004 And then we refine it from there. 00:18:03.334 --> 00:18:10.204 And hopefully get two good takes, so that in editing, if I need a backup, we have 00:18:10.204 --> 00:18:14.104 a backup take that I can grab from if something goes wrong with the microphone 00:18:14.104 --> 00:18:16.474 or we talk over each other or whatever. 00:18:16.774 --> 00:18:20.674 And yeah, I'm doing most of the, the editing, because Regina has a cochlear 00:18:20.674 --> 00:18:23.584 implant, it's a little bit harder for her to hear the subtleties, but 00:18:23.584 --> 00:18:27.184 she's helping me with, I'm going back and saying, okay, what can we cut? 00:18:27.484 --> 00:18:30.004 Because sometimes, especially my episodes, are too long. 00:18:30.379 --> 00:18:33.169 Regina Nuzzo: I think it's helpful the format that we've set up where 00:18:33.199 --> 00:18:37.909 one person is responsible for most of the research on the topic, and the 00:18:37.909 --> 00:18:42.559 other person comes in relatively fresh because they are the audience proxy. 00:18:43.009 --> 00:18:46.609 So it's very helpful to have that other person asking questions 00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:50.779 because it brings an arc for the story that it wouldn't occur to you. 00:18:50.779 --> 00:18:54.329 So I like how we have this back and forth, switching things off. 00:18:54.329 --> 00:18:58.619 I know in other podcasts, both people come in super prepared and I 00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:02.849 feel like you get a lot of cursive knowledge that way because you don't 00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:04.349 have that fresh outside perspective. 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:06.059 Neil McPhedran: I really like that approach. 00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:08.936 And you can actually, when you listen to your episodes, you could 00:19:08.936 --> 00:19:10.136 probably make that assumption. 00:19:10.136 --> 00:19:13.171 You could sort of tell who brought the topic to the table? 00:19:13.171 --> 00:19:16.471 I think actually you even addressed that in a couple of the episodes. 00:19:16.811 --> 00:19:22.391 It probably helps as well from a prep perspective, that each of you 00:19:22.391 --> 00:19:25.721 is responsible for every second episode to go deep as well too. 00:19:25.721 --> 00:19:28.091 So that's probably a good takeaway for the audience. 00:19:28.451 --> 00:19:32.451 I'd also like to circle back though, the way you did it is great, where the 00:19:32.451 --> 00:19:35.931 first few episodes you sat together. 00:19:36.226 --> 00:19:40.556 I do think there is something in there and agree with you that to find your 00:19:40.556 --> 00:19:45.476 voice and to find your comfort even though you guys have been friends for 00:19:45.506 --> 00:19:49.526 years and you're very familiar with each other and comfortable with each 00:19:49.526 --> 00:19:53.096 other, it's a different thing to put a mic in front of your face and to start 00:19:53.096 --> 00:19:55.076 recording and to record a podcast. 00:19:55.076 --> 00:19:59.576 So I think that's another really good insight for us all of thinking about it. 00:19:59.576 --> 00:20:02.606 And so you do two takes, or more. 00:20:02.606 --> 00:20:05.696 And then you're taking them and you're putting them together as one episode. 00:20:05.696 --> 00:20:07.256 I think that's a really interesting approach too. 00:20:07.351 --> 00:20:10.586 Kristin Sainani: We, we do an initial take that's just for the laughs and the 00:20:10.586 --> 00:20:14.276 asking all the questions, but then we do two takes because I've found in the 00:20:14.276 --> 00:20:18.596 editing that sometimes I need a second take to grab from, I have a backup in 00:20:18.596 --> 00:20:21.466 case the mic is reverberating or whatever. 00:20:21.496 --> 00:20:24.976 Or just we talked over each other or somebody said the wrong number, you know? 00:20:24.976 --> 00:20:25.846 So I have a backup. 00:20:26.881 --> 00:20:29.611 Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, we've also learned that working in chunks helps. 00:20:29.671 --> 00:20:36.091 So we go in that first take just exploring together, but then we have an 00:20:36.091 --> 00:20:40.921 idea of the backbone of how it's going to go, and then we have a rough script. 00:20:41.191 --> 00:20:44.491 And we've realized that taking things in chunks just makes it a 00:20:44.491 --> 00:20:48.246 little easier to edit and a little easier to say over and over. 00:20:48.391 --> 00:20:51.451 It took us a while to figure that out because sometimes we 00:20:51.451 --> 00:20:53.066 were just doing take after take. 00:20:53.636 --> 00:20:55.726 And it got a little unwieldy. 00:20:55.906 --> 00:20:59.086 Kristin Sainani: We have about 25 chunks per episode, so we tape the 00:20:59.086 --> 00:21:00.586 chunk once and then we tape it again. 00:21:00.586 --> 00:21:02.456 So sometimes that second take is a little cleaner. 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:03.599 Jennifer-Lee: I would never know though. 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.769 It seems so natural. 00:21:04.769 --> 00:21:08.129 It seems like you guys, um, turned on the mic and you're doing it. 00:21:08.309 --> 00:21:13.369 But again, the more prepped and stuff you are the more natural you come off. 00:21:13.429 --> 00:21:15.469 So how do you find the topics? 00:21:15.489 --> 00:21:19.149 I'm curious because like how do you find the topics that you talk 00:21:19.149 --> 00:21:20.709 about because they're so good. 00:21:20.919 --> 00:21:24.759 Regina Nuzzo: Some of it is what Kristin and I had covered when we were 00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:26.409 doing a lot of science journalism. 00:21:27.159 --> 00:21:32.929 So Kristen wrote a health column for a beauty magazine, Allure 00:21:33.009 --> 00:21:37.629 magazine for a decade, and she covered health studies there. 00:21:38.019 --> 00:21:43.089 For a little while I was writing for the Los Angeles Times and doing a column 00:21:43.089 --> 00:21:46.719 on sex, kind of mating, dating sex. 00:21:46.889 --> 00:21:52.289 But Along the way, we covered studies that were, uh, questionable quality. 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:57.509 And so some of what we are doing now is an opportunity to go back and 00:21:57.509 --> 00:22:01.769 recover what we did before and kind of do our, our penance for that. 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:03.209 Kristin Sainani: Yeah. 00:22:03.209 --> 00:22:06.629 I had 150 words per study, so you couldn't get a lot in, so there 00:22:06.629 --> 00:22:07.949 was a lot more I had to say. 00:22:07.949 --> 00:22:09.659 And I think Regina similarly. 00:22:10.169 --> 00:22:12.269 There's just a, we felt like there was a lot more to cover, but 00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:15.689 when you're writing for magazine or newspaper, it's very short. 00:22:15.749 --> 00:22:18.899 Regina Nuzzo: I think we're also picking things that are in the popular 00:22:18.959 --> 00:22:20.979 imagination that are in headlines. 00:22:20.999 --> 00:22:24.419 And you always wonder, hmm, what is the evidence behind that? 00:22:24.419 --> 00:22:27.629 Because other journalists are covering it too, and they don't have room. 00:22:27.629 --> 00:22:30.329 But we have the opportunity to go a little deeper. 00:22:30.724 --> 00:22:35.284 I am tending to pick things that have to do with dating or 00:22:35.284 --> 00:22:37.984 relationships or sex or gross science. 00:22:38.284 --> 00:22:41.284 And Kristin is doing a lot with health. 00:22:41.674 --> 00:22:45.274 So we're also gravitating towards things that we enjoy ourselves. 00:22:45.274 --> 00:22:48.694 And I think that's key because we spend a lot of time doing this. 00:22:49.834 --> 00:22:52.384 Kristin Sainani: And these are topics I've been following for years and I 00:22:52.384 --> 00:22:54.574 often use in my own teaching at Stanford. 00:22:54.574 --> 00:22:57.724 So some of the bad papers or good papers I've already used in teaching 00:22:57.724 --> 00:22:59.404 before and that's, they're in my bucket. 00:23:01.024 --> 00:23:03.334 Neil McPhedran: So how did you launch Normal Curves? 00:23:03.334 --> 00:23:06.544 Did you have a network to lean into? 00:23:06.994 --> 00:23:09.544 What was your first initial push to get it out there? 00:23:09.544 --> 00:23:13.114 I think a lot of podcasters, this is something that they'd probably 00:23:13.114 --> 00:23:17.344 love to hear from you guys about how you kind of approached your launch. 00:23:18.754 --> 00:23:20.344 Kristin Sainani: We didn't really know what we were doing. 00:23:20.344 --> 00:23:23.674 I do have some following through, I have a writing course I teach 00:23:23.674 --> 00:23:26.764 on Coursera, which again is trying to get scientists to write better. 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.089 And so I had somewhat of a following on that. 00:23:29.089 --> 00:23:32.629 So I had an audience, and I think in developing the podcast, we were thinking 00:23:32.629 --> 00:23:35.899 a little bit about that audience, young scientists, grad students. 00:23:36.469 --> 00:23:38.509 Regina Nuzzo: Kristen is very goal oriented, so I love it. 00:23:38.539 --> 00:23:39.919 She said, okay, here's the date. 00:23:39.919 --> 00:23:41.719 We just have to pick a date and we have to launch. 00:23:41.719 --> 00:23:42.809 We're not going to be ready. 00:23:43.144 --> 00:23:46.024 We have no idea what we're doing, but we just need to do it anyway. 00:23:46.054 --> 00:23:50.854 And if it were me, I would keep delaying until we were, you know, 200% ready. 00:23:50.884 --> 00:23:54.664 And there is something to be said for having a Kristin on your team that's 00:23:54.664 --> 00:23:56.584 like, nope, we're just doing it anyway. 00:23:57.064 --> 00:23:59.104 And then find yourself along the way. 00:23:59.134 --> 00:24:03.074 And Neil, of course, you and your team were super helpful, like honestly. 00:24:03.544 --> 00:24:07.919 We had no idea what we were doing technically, or marketing or any of that. 00:24:07.949 --> 00:24:10.679 And you guys were amazing in helping with that. 00:24:11.189 --> 00:24:11.609 Neil McPhedran: Thank you. 00:24:11.749 --> 00:24:12.389 Regina Nuzzo: Yes, yes. 00:24:12.389 --> 00:24:14.414 Neil McPhedran: I wasn't looking for that from the question I asked. 00:24:14.654 --> 00:24:15.094 Regina Nuzzo: It's okay. 00:24:15.239 --> 00:24:17.399 Kristin Sainani: I don't know if we should admit there was a shift in title. 00:24:18.419 --> 00:24:19.559 Regina Nuzzo: Oh, that's right. 00:24:19.564 --> 00:24:19.814 Neil McPhedran: What? 00:24:19.819 --> 00:24:21.299 What was the original title? 00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:22.679 Kristin Sainani: Are we giving that away, Regina? 00:24:23.069 --> 00:24:23.519 Regina Nuzzo: Yes. 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:24.859 I think we should give it away. 00:24:24.899 --> 00:24:25.209 Kristin Sainani: Yes. 00:24:25.379 --> 00:24:28.169 it was originally gonna be Sex, Beauty, and Statistics, and that was 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:31.749 recognizing that Regina had written about sex for general audiences, 00:24:31.749 --> 00:24:35.169 science of, again, and I had written about beauty for general audiences. 00:24:35.169 --> 00:24:37.179 Actually it was about health, but it was for a beauty magazine. 00:24:37.179 --> 00:24:40.619 So it incorporated those tracks as well as the statistics. 00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:45.239 Regina Nuzzo: And Neil, you and your team helped us explore and helped us come up 00:24:45.239 --> 00:24:47.249 with the Normal Curves, which we love. 00:24:47.429 --> 00:24:50.219 And the fun logo and tagline. 00:24:50.219 --> 00:24:51.949 Kristin Sainani: Well, Regina, the fun logo is all you. 00:24:53.189 --> 00:24:54.779 That was a stroke of, of genius. 00:24:54.809 --> 00:24:57.889 I think another reason we didn't go to our, ask for institutional 00:24:57.889 --> 00:25:00.669 support, it was because originally there was sex in the title. 00:25:01.386 --> 00:25:05.076 Regina Nuzzo: I do think it's helpful, so much of this requires 00:25:05.076 --> 00:25:06.786 inside knowledge, I think already. 00:25:06.816 --> 00:25:08.226 How do you even choose a platform? 00:25:08.226 --> 00:25:08.916 Where do you go? 00:25:08.916 --> 00:25:10.236 Where do the files go? 00:25:10.556 --> 00:25:12.236 You have files, what do you do with them? 00:25:12.236 --> 00:25:13.736 How do you do all of this? 00:25:13.736 --> 00:25:15.756 What is an RSS feed, right? 00:25:15.857 --> 00:25:19.946 All of these things, it's helpful if you have a friend or if you have, you 00:25:19.946 --> 00:25:23.996 know, someone like you, Neil, to come in and break it down step by step 00:25:23.996 --> 00:25:29.246 because it seems obvious to you, but not to two professors starting out. 00:25:29.396 --> 00:25:29.546 Kristin Sainani: Right. 00:25:29.606 --> 00:25:30.386 We knew nothing. 00:25:30.536 --> 00:25:34.376 Regina Nuzzo: I guess then that is a perfect way to lead into, for anyone 00:25:34.376 --> 00:25:37.646 thinking of starting a podcast, what is some advice you can give? 00:25:38.286 --> 00:25:38.786 Kristin Sainani: Just do it. 00:25:39.836 --> 00:25:40.976 We didn't think too hard about it. 00:25:40.976 --> 00:25:43.106 We just got in the booth and started taping. 00:25:44.096 --> 00:25:46.856 Regina Nuzzo: Are most of the podcasters that you work with, are they doing it 00:25:46.856 --> 00:25:49.706 solo or do they have co-hosts together? 00:25:49.826 --> 00:25:52.696 Jennifer-Lee: Most of mine are interview style podcasts. 00:25:52.713 --> 00:25:54.574 So there'd be one host, interview. 00:25:54.771 --> 00:25:55.161 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:25:55.311 --> 00:25:59.421 We work with a lot of single hosts that's not co-hosts. 00:25:59.751 --> 00:26:00.981 Kristin Sainani: So that, that's good advice. 00:26:00.981 --> 00:26:04.581 If you wanna start a podcast, get a co-host because that has made it doable. 00:26:04.581 --> 00:26:05.721 I wouldn't have been able to do this on my own. 00:26:06.321 --> 00:26:10.581 Jennifer-Lee: But I will say when I worked back in radio, I learnt, 00:26:10.681 --> 00:26:14.551 you don't always have great rapport with everybody as a co-host. 00:26:14.901 --> 00:26:16.191 I've been lucky. 00:26:16.191 --> 00:26:19.221 I co-host this podcast with Neil, so we're lucky that we 00:26:19.221 --> 00:26:21.421 have the rapport that we have. 00:26:21.651 --> 00:26:23.031 But not everyone has it. 00:26:23.031 --> 00:26:27.231 And you guys being friends, you can really tell that it's genuinely really 00:26:27.231 --> 00:26:30.141 great because not everybody clicks. 00:26:30.141 --> 00:26:32.841 So that would be my advice if people are co-hosts, just don't 00:26:32.841 --> 00:26:35.411 find a warm body to be your co-host. 00:26:35.486 --> 00:26:39.801 But your friendship, I think is really why you guys feed off of each other so well. 00:26:40.236 --> 00:26:42.606 Regina Nuzzo: I think that it's also helpful, right? 00:26:42.666 --> 00:26:47.526 Rapport, respect, all of that, but finding someone who has complimentary 00:26:47.796 --> 00:26:52.566 skills and personality, bringing this, because two of me would be too many, 00:26:52.656 --> 00:26:54.246 two of Kristin would be too many. 00:26:54.786 --> 00:26:59.181 So bringing that together because you get different strengths that 00:26:59.181 --> 00:27:01.341 way, different perspectives. 00:27:01.761 --> 00:27:07.101 And I think it's also helpful to have a co-host because when you start to 00:27:07.101 --> 00:27:11.421 lose, you know, faith in yourself, luckily Kristin and I, throughout 00:27:11.421 --> 00:27:15.411 this process, at least one of us was always a hundred percent on board, 00:27:15.471 --> 00:27:16.971 even if the other person wasn't. 00:27:17.091 --> 00:27:20.331 So that creates a certain momentum, I think. 00:27:20.381 --> 00:27:20.951 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:27:20.981 --> 00:27:21.521 I like that. 00:27:21.611 --> 00:27:24.431 I met Jen, I had been thinking about doing this. 00:27:24.431 --> 00:27:27.461 I was thinking there was an opportunity to, you know, this would 00:27:27.461 --> 00:27:31.436 be a good way to meet more higher education podcasters and to really 00:27:31.436 --> 00:27:33.236 lean in and to learn more about it. 00:27:33.326 --> 00:27:35.816 When I met Jen, I was like, hey, you wanna do this with me? 00:27:35.846 --> 00:27:39.056 And I agree, that's been a great part of the journey is doing it with 00:27:39.056 --> 00:27:43.586 someone else and, and Jen came with more of a background into interviewing 00:27:43.586 --> 00:27:45.116 and the space and whatnot too. 00:27:45.116 --> 00:27:50.306 So pairing up or teaming up and finding a colleague or a friend to tag team it with, 00:27:50.306 --> 00:27:52.076 I think that's some good advice there too. 00:27:52.356 --> 00:27:56.856 Regina Nuzzo: I think it's helpful also to think in terms of story and not 00:27:56.856 --> 00:28:01.836 lecture because a lot of your audience are coming from this academic background, and 00:28:01.836 --> 00:28:04.296 it's a different experience to lecture. 00:28:04.296 --> 00:28:07.956 You come in, you need to deliver content, you have a captive audience. 00:28:08.046 --> 00:28:09.516 It's very different than podcasting. 00:28:09.636 --> 00:28:14.436 And the podcasting, thinking about being friends with your audience and telling 00:28:14.436 --> 00:28:18.726 stories that they will be interested in is a little bit of a switch, so I 00:28:18.726 --> 00:28:23.736 would advise professors who don't have that sort of background to maybe try 00:28:23.736 --> 00:28:25.416 to think like a journalist that way. 00:28:25.986 --> 00:28:28.296 Neil McPhedran: I think that's some really good advice 'cause I think 00:28:28.356 --> 00:28:32.016 that especially for professors to think that way differently. 00:28:32.016 --> 00:28:37.086 And obviously as science writers and journalists, you brought a 00:28:37.086 --> 00:28:40.596 different perspective to the table where you had experience doing that. 00:28:40.596 --> 00:28:46.166 It wasn't just, here's the facts, you had to weave a story into your 00:28:46.166 --> 00:28:47.936 articles and into your writing. 00:28:48.026 --> 00:28:50.966 And it comes out too in the way you approach things. 00:28:50.966 --> 00:28:55.196 And I think that's what makes it more approachable and to a wider audience 00:28:55.196 --> 00:28:56.426 where there's something more to it. 00:28:56.756 --> 00:28:59.306 Kristin Sainani: We'd actually spend a lot of time thinking about the narrative 00:28:59.306 --> 00:29:03.836 arc. So when we do that first take in the booth, after that, we then start to say, 00:29:03.866 --> 00:29:05.396 oh, when this goes here, this goes here. 00:29:05.396 --> 00:29:10.271 And we often move around based, not what the natural conversation was, but where 00:29:10.451 --> 00:29:11.891 can we build a better narrative arc. 00:29:12.251 --> 00:29:16.661 Neil McPhedran: So you're now seven episodes in, I would assume 00:29:16.661 --> 00:29:19.451 you're starting to hear from your audience, any feedback that you've 00:29:19.451 --> 00:29:21.011 received that's surprised you. 00:29:21.071 --> 00:29:25.001 Anything that sort of made you rethink something or just, I guess it must be 00:29:25.001 --> 00:29:28.391 interesting to start to hear feedback just in general from an audience. 00:29:28.751 --> 00:29:31.211 Regina Nuzzo: Yeah, it's qualitative instead of quantitative. 00:29:32.021 --> 00:29:33.941 We can look at the download the numbers. 00:29:34.511 --> 00:29:38.801 But it's much more interesting to see the comment, the stories from actual people. 00:29:38.981 --> 00:29:44.741 We've gotten some fantastic comments that really I think help keep us going when 00:29:44.741 --> 00:29:47.301 we think about how much work this is. 00:29:47.668 --> 00:29:49.498 Jennifer-Lee: Any comments from the students? 00:29:49.578 --> 00:29:52.998 Regina Nuzzo: One of the nice things we started to hear from young graduate 00:29:52.998 --> 00:29:58.163 students, postdocs, which we were expecting, but we heard from female grad 00:29:58.163 --> 00:30:04.793 students, for example, saying it's so nice to have a sciencey podcast with two women 00:30:05.033 --> 00:30:11.133 instead of, you know, these bro casts and that you are women and you don't mind 00:30:11.133 --> 00:30:16.653 coming in and being human and fun and sexy and smart and strong at the same time. 00:30:16.713 --> 00:30:23.073 And for Kristin and me, that's just, oh, that's, that's just so exciting. 00:30:23.553 --> 00:30:27.688 We didn't have role models like that when we were coming up through grad school. 00:30:27.868 --> 00:30:28.888 Neil McPhedran: That is great. 00:30:28.888 --> 00:30:30.838 You guys are the anecdote to the bro cast. 00:30:31.378 --> 00:30:31.768 Jennifer-Lee: I love it. 00:30:31.768 --> 00:30:32.848 I'm stealing that one. 00:30:33.908 --> 00:30:36.458 Neil McPhedran: So, well, I think that was great. 00:30:36.488 --> 00:30:39.248 Thank you so much for joining us today. 00:30:39.278 --> 00:30:42.818 I think it's been great to hear about your journey, and we've learned a lot. 00:30:42.848 --> 00:30:46.718 I think there's some really good, tangible insights for those out there thinking 00:30:46.718 --> 00:30:50.198 about planning to launch a podcast. 00:30:50.228 --> 00:30:52.838 Really appreciate your time and your, uh, candor today. 00:30:53.288 --> 00:30:54.068 Regina Nuzzo: It's has been fun. 00:30:54.068 --> 00:30:54.908 Thanks for having us. 00:30:56.408 --> 00:30:58.898 Neil McPhedran: Well, that was a fun conversation, wasn't it, Jen? 00:30:59.288 --> 00:31:00.938 Jennifer-Lee: I feel like I could talk to 'em forever. 00:31:00.938 --> 00:31:06.938 I felt like we were like at a bar gabbing together with a bottle of wine. 00:31:07.628 --> 00:31:11.408 Neil McPhedran: I think that's what's great about their podcast is to a 00:31:11.408 --> 00:31:15.278 certain extent they're achieving that you feel like you're part of this 00:31:15.818 --> 00:31:22.538 conversation that they're having, but also it's part lecture as well too. 00:31:22.538 --> 00:31:25.838 I think they've really done a good job of figuring out both those sides 00:31:25.838 --> 00:31:31.238 and as we talked about the importance of storytelling and as they talked 00:31:31.238 --> 00:31:35.381 about, there's a story arc and the way that they approach their episodes. 00:31:35.381 --> 00:31:40.331 They're not trying to give a lecture, they're trying to weave 00:31:40.331 --> 00:31:45.791 it into a story and to make it more interesting for the listener. 00:31:46.706 --> 00:31:48.716 Jennifer-Lee: It's definitely not like the lectures that I used to 00:31:48.716 --> 00:31:52.646 go to a university where you fell asleep during half the lecture. 00:31:53.786 --> 00:31:57.596 I like the fact that they're making it fun for us regular people 00:31:57.596 --> 00:31:59.786 that aren't going into science. 00:31:59.816 --> 00:32:06.596 I really enjoyed it because they were able to talk to me like I was on par with them. 00:32:06.596 --> 00:32:08.486 It's like watching The Magic School Bus. 00:32:08.666 --> 00:32:11.006 Fun but informative. 00:32:11.456 --> 00:32:14.951 Neil McPhedran: I think there's a lot of really interesting learnings 00:32:14.951 --> 00:32:18.011 there for us as podcasters too. 00:32:18.061 --> 00:32:27.511 One of the things that struck me was how they do multiple takes and how they work 00:32:27.511 --> 00:32:33.121 it down into chunks, and then they'll do a couple of versions of that, and then 00:32:34.251 --> 00:32:39.901 Kristin has so much to choose from when she goes into, put that edit together. 00:32:40.331 --> 00:32:43.991 You wouldn't know that they were actually recording it that way. 00:32:44.501 --> 00:32:48.461 And I think, as you said when we were chatting with them, it really goes 00:32:48.461 --> 00:32:56.321 to show that that prep and practice and multiple takes actually leads to 00:32:56.411 --> 00:33:02.801 this more casual, almost approachable conversation that you wouldn't know 00:33:02.801 --> 00:33:06.971 how much has actually gone into it when you listen to the final product. 00:33:07.571 --> 00:33:10.421 Jennifer-Lee: You know that saying practice makes perfect. 00:33:10.421 --> 00:33:12.281 It's the same thing. 00:33:12.281 --> 00:33:15.071 And if you're not prepared, you're gonna fumble and you're 00:33:15.071 --> 00:33:16.751 going to not sound great. 00:33:16.751 --> 00:33:20.381 Be prepared, and you'll sound casual. 00:33:20.501 --> 00:33:21.131 Neil McPhedran: There you go. 00:33:21.946 --> 00:33:26.266 Jennifer-Lee: You feel confident and you're not gonna care if you screw up, but 00:33:26.266 --> 00:33:30.796 if you don't prep, you're gonna be nervous because you don't know what you're saying. 00:33:30.976 --> 00:33:34.636 Anyways, thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast 00:33:34.636 --> 00:33:36.286 for higher education podcasters. 00:33:36.556 --> 00:33:39.586 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:33:39.616 --> 00:33:42.676 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:33:42.676 --> 00:33:46.036 podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:33:46.306 --> 00:33:48.921 But if you found this episode particularly valuable. 00:33:48.981 --> 00:33:52.431 Please consider sharing it with friends and colleagues who also might be 00:33:52.431 --> 00:33:54.201 interested in higher education podcasts. 00:33:54.471 --> 00:33:59.211 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect 00:33:59.211 --> 00:34:03.381 to other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:34:03.471 --> 00:34:05.721 Thank you so much for being part of our community. 00:34:06.021 --> 00:34:09.531 We look forward to continuing to bring your valuable insights and conversations 00:34:09.561 --> 00:34:11.151 around higher education podcasts. 00:34:11.571 --> 00:34:13.131 See you in the next episode.