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Welcome to our 2025
year in review episode.

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I normally have these in year
episodes where we try to wrap

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up what mattered to us this year
and but this year felt different.

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I think it's safe to say that we
are consumed all of us by AI agents

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everywhere in all of our tools and.

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I kind of knew that that would
dominate any retrospect conversation.

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So we, we did that even after we
recorded this episode in early December.

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The landscape shifted under our feet as
Anthropic release their Opus 4.5, along

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with Google's Gemini three days earlier.

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And these models caused a lot
of my friends and tech leaders

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to spend their holidays, vibe
coding on personal projects.

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That were quite easier to
accomplish than with the models

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available just three months ago.

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So in December, we recorded
this year end episode.

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I'm joined by my co-host, Nirmal of AWS,
and we're also joined by our special

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guest, Viktor Farcic of Upbound, to
discuss everything we loved and hated

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about cloud native and AI in 2025 from
terminal emulators to IDs from CLI agents.

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To AI browsers we're breaking down what
worked for us, what flopped, and what's

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worth our time and money, and maybe yours.

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We kick things off in this episode in
the trenches of the command line where

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the battle between Claude Code, OpenCode.

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GitHub Copilot and all the
other CLI tools rages on.

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And Viktor, you know, he makes
his passionate case for why Claude

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Code dominates the terminal space.

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While I am mostly focused on GitHub
Copilot, mostly because I'm making courses

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on that stuff, and Viktor is concerned
from my mental health about that.

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So we talk and discuss the PRs and cons.

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Nirmal talks about AWS Kiro
and brings that into the mix.

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We don't just talk about CLI tools,
although, you know, that really I feel

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like has dominated the last few months of
conversations everywhere on the internet.

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we talk about Ghostty and terminals
versus my favorite iTerm and we discuss

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warp terminal and how I spent some
months on that and then kind of left it.

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we talk all the way up
the stack to IDs and into.

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AI browsers and why I am just very
uncomfortable with any AI in my

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browser, at least the way that it's
being implemented in all of them

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today, and a whole lot of other topics.

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So I really hope you enjoyed
this episode with Normal and

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Viktor, and let's get into it.

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Thanks for being here, everyone.

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yeah.

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So I'm just glad to see you again, Bret.

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It's been a hot minute.

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So, excited to kind of get into
this end of the year, but before we

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start, just want to remind folks,
all the opinions on the show for me

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are my own and not representative
of Amazon Web Services, my employer.

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That being said, I am a principal solution
architect at AWS and, we'll probably

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going to get into some AWS services today.

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Potentially.

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Potentially.

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Maybe,

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maybe.

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So, this show is going to be us bringing
on our special guest, Viktor, and we

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are going to walk through the best
and worst of AI tech, at least in our,

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our views for 2025 and then into 2026.

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Viktor, welcome.

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Hey, hey, hey.

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I have a disclaimer as well.

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I'm probably going to say something
ridiculous that is going to offend

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people and opinions are mine and
only mine and whatever else people

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say in those cases, I don't care.

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Yes,

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opinions are always mine.

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I only say other people's
opinions when they pay me to.

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So far, so far no one has, it's
still yours successfully paid me to.

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Oh no.

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They're always yours and they're great
opinions and that's why people come.

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Mm-hmm.

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Back and back to hear
us espouse our beliefs.

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I

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influenced, I am
influenced by money though.

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So that's my disclaimer is money
will influence my decisions.

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Yes.

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which I will mention disclaimers
today, when, when we get into it.

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But like, I guess one I should say
is GitHub provides me free Copilot,

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so that influenced my decision.

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Well wait until we get to
the worst heck of the year.

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That's right.

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So, the whole point of this game, and
it is a game because we could make,

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we could say this like, you, for every
one of these tip picks, we're probably

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going to have someone has a, a complete
opposite argument that's is just as valid.

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So for whatever I love and whatever
they hate, like someone else is

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going to think love and hate is
different and that is perfectly fine.

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but I think like in starting in planning
the show, it was, I was realizing

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it has been an incredibly long year.

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And when I think back to this just the
first quarter, like what we were talking

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about, which is, and what we were doing
versus what we're talking about and doing

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now is like, it's, to me, it's one of
the fastest paced years in tech of my

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career where so many of my tools have,
my behavior in using them has changed.

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what we're going to talk about, tools
that we tried to adopt, maybe we had to

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roll back, maybe, you know, failures.

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everything is up for grabs right now.

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I feel like, whether it's terminals or
browsers or IDs or note takers or it's

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just, an onslaught of innovation and
I'm kind of here for it, but also like

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we all just need to get stuff done.

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So I'm excited to hear what you all think.

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I ordered, I created a mental list.

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Talking about the, so the theme
is it's got to have some sort of

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AI related, which is not too hard.

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I, I, there's very few tools that don't
have some sort of AI connection anymore.

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The first topic, I think, to
get out of the way is CLI tools.

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we're going to go to the nerdy
stuff first and maybe like zoom out.

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Maybe that's the theme
as we slowly back out.

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We'll, we'll end with browsers,
maybe something, more consumer cited.

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But, you know, the rest
of the world's all.

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Thinking about ChatGPT and Grok
and the consumer side of things.

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those of us that are developers
and operators, like we're

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more and more in the terminal.

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I feel like this was the year
that AiTerminal tools grew up.

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I don't know about you, but my first
experience with an AI tool was when iTerm

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added, like three years ago, they added a
ChatGPT similar experience in the iTerm,

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like in the actual ui, not, not a Shell
CLI, but like in the UI of the terminal.

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So it was kind of weird and I
used it for like five seconds.

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Five minutes.

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And then I was like, this is dumb.

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I, I would just rather use a browser.

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iTerm definitely needs AI for
their settings because no human

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can understand how to computer.

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Oh,

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I'm so surprised they haven't done that.

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Exactly.

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Because kind of we give up on
this, humanity gave up on this.

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So let's put some ai,
maybe it'll figure it out.

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Oh, that is, and whatever it does,
it won't do the worst job than

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you will you, you would do, right?

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That is, that is gold Viktor, because
I feel so validated that I, I, every

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time I open up iTerm settings, I feel
like I've lost my understanding of it.

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Like completely every time.

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Can I do a, every time I try
to change a font in iTerm, like

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I, I don't know where to go.

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Can I do a non-AI pick?

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Just because we're talking about it?

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Yeah, sure.

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If it's on, if it's on topic.

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Pick ghostty.

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It's absolutely awesome, it simply
doesn't do anything special.

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Nothing.

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There is nothing you say, Hey, this is,
I've never seen something as good as this.

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No, it just works.

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So what is it?

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Explain what what it is

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and choose.

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It's just a replacement

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for iTerm done by Hashimoto.

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You know, the Hashi HashiCorp guy?

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it's his, pet project, right?

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And even if you go to the repo,
it says kind of like, this is my

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kind of, don't complain to me.

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This is my pet project, right?

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So, it's just awesome.

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Why, why should I switch to it?

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Why?

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What's so awesome about it?

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That's the thing.

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I cannot give you the answer
to that question because there

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is nothing special about it.

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It's just fes.

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I never had any trouble, I never
had issue kind of how to change

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the theme, how to, change the font.

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It's just simple works.

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And that's it.

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That's awesome.

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I heard it's fast, but I don't
know if that's Yeah, it's lean.

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That's true.

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It's, it's,

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it's, it's main call, main
claim to fame is speed.

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like, like rendering speed.

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my biggest thing is it, unless it's
been fixed, it doesn't have control

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f so I can't search the window.

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like a true Unix person's attitude is
you don't get to search the window.

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that's not how terminals work.

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You have to grep right?

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You have to re you have to
put that log into a filter.

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I have just used control F for
searching the window for decades

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and I, it's like a muscle memory.

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But I will switch as soon as
that feature is available.

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'cause it is a great terminal.

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it is very lean and streamlined.

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You know what it is I, what
I love about it is that.

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it's built now.

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Like iTerm shows its age because it
was built over the last at, I mean,

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I was, I've been using it since 2009,
so iTerm's probably 20 years old.

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it's got every feature be, you know,
because we didn't have those features, we

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didn't have all a true color 15 years ago.

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We didn't have the ability to put
italics very easily 15 years ago.

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Like, you had to do a lot of hacks to get
italics to even work in your terminal.

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So Ghostty just knows all that is
modern and it just works out of the box.

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Like there's no special config, it
supports nerd fonts out of the box.

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it understands all these
modern terminal concepts.

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iTerm just has this horrible history.

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It kinda reminds me of,
what's the SSH Windows CLIent?

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putty, it reminds me of like
putty or, or old school.

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Remember we used to have like x these
old school windows terminal emulators

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for Linux and Unix that were like,
you could decide between which formats

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of like Unix or X term, or u like all
these different terminal settings.

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Like they were just old school stuff.

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And Ghostty throws all that away,
says, Hey, you got a, what is it,

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a YAML file or TOML or something?

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yeah, TOML.

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Yeah, it is great.

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Nerd phone is, is actually the
reason why I switched to it.

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I, I wanted to change the font in my,
iTerm I ended up having to Google for

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more than five seconds and I said, no, no.

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If I'm going to Google for solution, I'm
going to Google for replacement for iTerm.

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That's how it started.

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Yeah.

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So speaking of terminals,
this is a great segue.

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so now you've got Ghostty running.

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Super fast, super slick.

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Mm-hmm.

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what's your favorite AI tool
in the terminal from 2025?

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Come on.

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Before,

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before he answers that, I did want to
mention that if you're interested in

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terminals, Bret Fisher dot com, put this
link in Bret Fisher dot com slash shell.

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It is my guide.

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It was updated this year.

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it was actually in the last month.

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It's my guide to terminals across OSS
add-ins, plugins, fonts, how to get

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italics working if it doesn't work.

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what do you use?

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Do you use zsh?

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Do you need o Oh, my ux?

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Do you need Zelig?

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Do you like, there's so many.

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These are not mostly AI things.

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Very few of it's AI related,
but for 10 years now.

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I've been keeping this thing up to date.

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I updated every couple of years.

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It just got updated.

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If you're a veteran to terminals,
you've been using 'em for years

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and you know you and love your
terminal, you will not need this.

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But if you're newer to terminals or
you're learning how to advance your

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terminal game, if you care about the
GitHub monospace font, which is my

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favorite fonts, a terminal Terminal,
which is a replacement for tux, which

235
00:11:15,754 --> 00:11:20,134
uses session list UDP packets, like
there's so much in here that over the

236
00:11:20,134 --> 00:11:22,354
years of consulting and stuff like that.

237
00:11:22,354 --> 00:11:23,764
So selfish plug.

238
00:11:24,264 --> 00:11:25,194
There you go.

239
00:11:25,224 --> 00:11:25,524
Okay.

240
00:11:25,704 --> 00:11:26,394
What was the question?

241
00:11:26,394 --> 00:11:26,634
Sorry.

242
00:11:26,634 --> 00:11:27,384
Let's back to the question.

243
00:11:28,644 --> 00:11:32,064
So now that we have this awesome
terminal and I can plus one plus a

244
00:11:32,064 --> 00:11:37,214
thousand breadths, shell page, it's what
I use as my guide to set up my shell,

245
00:11:37,464 --> 00:11:42,364
including the awesome demo modes that
you've put in there for you know, I

246
00:11:42,364 --> 00:11:48,714
do a lot of presentations to customers
and on stages and workshops and having

247
00:11:48,714 --> 00:11:54,914
that demo mode so that you're not like
showcasing your whole entire right from

248
00:11:54,914 --> 00:11:57,354
your, from your shell, is really handy.

249
00:11:57,384 --> 00:11:57,804
Okay.

250
00:11:58,074 --> 00:11:59,024
So Viktor?

251
00:11:59,124 --> 00:11:59,214
Mm-hmm.

252
00:11:59,714 --> 00:12:02,884
We've got Ghostty running and I
just installed it while you were

253
00:12:02,884 --> 00:12:04,534
lighting the awesomeness of it.

254
00:12:04,844 --> 00:12:06,584
I've got it up and running and it boot it.

255
00:12:07,034 --> 00:12:09,974
One thing I already like is that
you can resize the window any

256
00:12:09,974 --> 00:12:11,294
way you want, which is amazing.

257
00:12:11,924 --> 00:12:12,104
Yeah.

258
00:12:12,104 --> 00:12:14,774
You can create paints, you can
split planes, you can do everything.

259
00:12:14,834 --> 00:12:15,074
Awesome.

260
00:12:15,134 --> 00:12:15,794
That makes sense.

261
00:12:16,294 --> 00:12:20,014
What is your favorite Ai CLI tool of 2025?

262
00:12:20,514 --> 00:12:21,864
Oh, there is no competition there.

263
00:12:21,864 --> 00:12:22,614
It's Claude Code.

264
00:12:22,944 --> 00:12:26,694
And I will, I dare anybody
when it's terminal based.

265
00:12:27,194 --> 00:12:27,914
Terminal based.

266
00:12:27,914 --> 00:12:31,324
I dare anybody to fight
against it with me.

267
00:12:31,824 --> 00:12:36,594
now the, the note there is that if you're
using Anthropic models, just to be clear,

268
00:12:36,594 --> 00:12:42,584
so if you're looking for something that is
model agnostic, OpenCode is probably the.

269
00:12:43,084 --> 00:12:44,374
Least bad option.

270
00:12:44,874 --> 00:12:48,114
but if you're okay with a
Anthropic or Sorry, not Anthropic,

271
00:12:48,334 --> 00:12:49,654
provider and Anthropic models.

272
00:12:49,654 --> 00:12:51,664
It can work with Bedrock, for example.

273
00:12:51,784 --> 00:12:52,324
That's fine.

274
00:12:52,324 --> 00:12:52,384
Yeah.

275
00:12:52,884 --> 00:12:56,634
now if you're not fond of a
Anthropic models, then we are going

276
00:12:56,634 --> 00:12:58,314
to have another fight afterwards.

277
00:12:58,814 --> 00:13:02,324
Tell us, I mean, I, I don't think I
have a debate about Anthropic models.

278
00:13:02,324 --> 00:13:06,264
I might have a debate about Claude
Code, but what is it about Claude

279
00:13:06,264 --> 00:13:11,454
Code, specifically the terminal
component that just beats the pants,

280
00:13:11,484 --> 00:13:13,284
beats the socks off of anything else?

281
00:13:13,784 --> 00:13:15,584
Have you tried all the, of,
have you tried other tools?

282
00:13:15,584 --> 00:13:16,924
Yeah, I tried OpenCode.

283
00:13:17,324 --> 00:13:21,254
I tried the, what is the charm thingy?

284
00:13:21,899 --> 00:13:22,739
the charm thing.

285
00:13:23,099 --> 00:13:23,549
Yeah.

286
00:13:23,549 --> 00:13:27,329
The, you know, the folks behind Charm
has the, have the Trivy of themselves.

287
00:13:27,329 --> 00:13:30,559
I tried go probably like 10
of them, and I spent, I spent

288
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,329
this a week with each of them.

289
00:13:32,699 --> 00:13:37,299
and first of all, Claude Code just works.

290
00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:39,149
It works, right?

291
00:13:39,359 --> 00:13:42,149
And all the things that you might
need, assuming that you like

292
00:13:42,149 --> 00:13:43,289
terminals, but some people don't.

293
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:44,339
It's simply there.

294
00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:48,259
So here's a simple example, and
that might have changed, like in

295
00:13:48,259 --> 00:13:49,909
OpenCode, which is my close second.

296
00:13:50,209 --> 00:13:54,039
I cannot see the status of my mcps
kind of, I don't know whether they're,

297
00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:55,889
they're connected and running, right?

298
00:13:55,889 --> 00:13:59,479
Kind of very basic kind
of, you know, table stakes.

299
00:13:59,689 --> 00:13:59,749
Yeah.

300
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:02,749
I don't want to even discuss the
usefulness of something like that.

301
00:14:03,249 --> 00:14:06,969
Or if I stick with the same
team, I try the Cursor CLI.

302
00:14:07,479 --> 00:14:12,339
And after not being able to configure, MCP
may, it might, things might have changed.

303
00:14:12,339 --> 00:14:13,659
Just to be clear, it's at a time.

304
00:14:13,659 --> 00:14:16,779
I tried it after failing to configure cps.

305
00:14:16,779 --> 00:14:20,469
I, I googled it, went to the site
and it says, oh, it's very easy to

306
00:14:20,469 --> 00:14:26,229
configure CPS in, in cursor, CLI, you
open Cursor IDE configure it there, then

307
00:14:26,229 --> 00:14:28,329
close it and open the CLI and it works.

308
00:14:28,829 --> 00:14:29,039
Right.

309
00:14:29,249 --> 00:14:29,639
Come on.

310
00:14:29,969 --> 00:14:33,529
then, then there are adding features
that nobody else has, right?

311
00:14:33,529 --> 00:14:36,799
You might like, or you might dislike
skills, but skills are there.

312
00:14:37,099 --> 00:14:39,589
can you describe what skills
are, what are, what are those?

313
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:46,459
Skills are like prompts or a directory
with prompts And scripts and what not.

314
00:14:46,699 --> 00:14:49,489
It's very simple, very, very
similar to slash commands.

315
00:14:49,989 --> 00:14:55,839
The major difference is that, you can
trigger those prompts, let's say, or

316
00:14:56,079 --> 00:14:58,459
commands through chat with your ai.

317
00:14:58,549 --> 00:14:58,819
Right?

318
00:14:58,999 --> 00:15:02,659
So typically we need to
execute slash something, right?

319
00:15:02,719 --> 00:15:02,779
Yeah.

320
00:15:02,779 --> 00:15:04,849
Here you can say model slash

321
00:15:05,989 --> 00:15:07,699
CP slash usage.

322
00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:08,269
Exactly.

323
00:15:08,769 --> 00:15:11,989
And here you can say, hey, I don't
know, like, create a PR, right?

324
00:15:12,489 --> 00:15:18,519
And just as it would trigger MCP, if there
is a description of MCP tool that matches

325
00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:21,429
that it would trigger skill as well.

326
00:15:21,609 --> 00:15:26,099
So think of it like prompts that
have the context or description,

327
00:15:26,439 --> 00:15:32,139
that is loaded as a system prompt so
that AI treats it as a tool as well.

328
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:32,939
Got it.

329
00:15:32,939 --> 00:15:33,089
So

330
00:15:33,089 --> 00:15:36,119
it can like skills and it's not just.

331
00:15:36,619 --> 00:15:37,789
About itself, right?

332
00:15:37,789 --> 00:15:43,409
It's not just the slash commands to run
Claude Code CLI, it could be anything.

333
00:15:43,909 --> 00:15:44,419
Yeah.

334
00:15:44,579 --> 00:15:48,299
it's a combination of prompts
with an MCP tools, right.

335
00:15:48,299 --> 00:15:48,659
Got it.

336
00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:50,929
And I think it got open source today.

337
00:15:51,049 --> 00:15:53,719
I think the skills maybe I'm,

338
00:15:54,219 --> 00:15:59,929
I heard today that, OpenAI seems
to have implemented skills as well.

339
00:16:00,019 --> 00:16:00,229
Yeah.

340
00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,649
so agent skills are open
source as of today, I think.

341
00:16:04,779 --> 00:16:05,409
Open standard.

342
00:16:05,439 --> 00:16:06,219
Open standard.

343
00:16:06,719 --> 00:16:07,139
There we go.

344
00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,809
there's a skilled directory, under
Claude dot com slash connectors.

345
00:16:11,809 --> 00:16:11,869
Yeah.

346
00:16:11,989 --> 00:16:13,529
I think is what you're talking about.

347
00:16:14,029 --> 00:16:14,479
Yeah.

348
00:16:14,979 --> 00:16:17,459
And now, you know, Bret,
you need to stop me.

349
00:16:17,459 --> 00:16:20,729
I can, I can go on for 45
minutes now about code.

350
00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:24,534
Well, I, I. It's apparent to me
that you, you fall into a group

351
00:16:24,534 --> 00:16:28,449
of my friends that are such
Claude Code advocates that mm-hmm.

352
00:16:28,529 --> 00:16:33,749
It makes me start to realize that the
real secret in the sauce of whether it's

353
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:37,169
OpenCode, which I've heard a lot about,
which, but I've never personally used,

354
00:16:37,569 --> 00:16:41,529
is like we've, the internet tends to
focus so much on the model's performance,

355
00:16:42,029 --> 00:16:46,169
but it, I feel like we're at a point
where it matters more about how much of

356
00:16:46,169 --> 00:16:52,019
the tool you're using and your patterns
around how you, whether it's skills or

357
00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:57,289
it's commands or it's, you know, heavily
using the agent's file or whatever that

358
00:16:57,319 --> 00:17:00,979
agent's variation is, because they all
still haven't quite settled on exactly.

359
00:17:00,979 --> 00:17:03,439
Like, not everybody is all
using Agents md. Mm-hmm.

360
00:17:03,709 --> 00:17:07,429
And what if I want a bunch of different
files in different directories?

361
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:10,549
Like how there, there's
a lot to all of this.

362
00:17:11,049 --> 00:17:14,109
What I would call like automation
and context enhancement stuff,

363
00:17:14,109 --> 00:17:17,400
which is Outside of the model,
sort of independent of the model.

364
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,760
And, there was a lot of talk earlier
in the year, especially first quarter

365
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,560
when I was first discovering like local
models and experimenting with Qwen

366
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,500
and like some of these local things.

367
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:32,870
And then I realized how inferior they
are to the, to the, to the SaaS models.

368
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:34,310
So I just stopped using them.

369
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:38,750
I mean, I, I, I can afford the $20 a
month plans on the internet, so I, I

370
00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:43,280
choose to do that rather than suffer with
the slower for performance local ones.

371
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,470
So you're doing option, not everybody
gets that you're doing option, but

372
00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:47,320
Oh, you're doing it completely wrong.

373
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,010
You can easily avoid $20 or a hundred
dollars a month subscription to

374
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:53,360
something like on Anthropic, right?

375
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,850
You just need to buy, 20 K hardware
and run the latest model over there.

376
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,720
It'll take its problem solved a year
before it gets obsolete, but it'll

377
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,660
work well for a year and you will,
you will not have to pay subscription.

378
00:18:07,140 --> 00:18:07,410
Yeah.

379
00:18:07,530 --> 00:18:09,750
Not to mention the electricity cost.

380
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:10,620
Right.

381
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:13,590
So for the benefit of all that
money gone from your wallet,

382
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:15,630
you don't have to send your
tokens to the internet.

383
00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:16,490
Yes.

384
00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:16,760
yeah.

385
00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:22,020
to me the takeaway here is whether you
choose, whether you like Gemini or,

386
00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:26,550
and, and to be fair, I'm going to lump
developers into two camps right now.

387
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,320
and that is the ones that get to
choose their tools, which the three

388
00:18:30,350 --> 00:18:34,830
of us, especially Viktor and I, being
a, a little bit more independent than

389
00:18:34,830 --> 00:18:36,930
Nirmal, we get to pick whatever we want.

390
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:38,430
We get to pay for whatever we want.

391
00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:40,610
and so we get to choose what we like.

392
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:45,460
Most people in enterprise positions
I talk to do not get that choice.

393
00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:48,210
In fact, I run a DevOps
Guild meetup every month.

394
00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:49,050
We call high fives.

395
00:18:49,370 --> 00:18:50,120
four people.

396
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:53,880
A whole four, showed up
yesterday, so I surveyed all four.

397
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,900
So the, it was a universal, a hundred
percent of those four all said, I

398
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:04,220
like this, but I use this because
it's what my company pays for.

399
00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:09,440
And that might be that they paid a lot of
them just use GitHub and copilot because

400
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:10,760
that's what their company pays for.

401
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,060
They would talk about, like, my
last job paid for cursor, so we all

402
00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:15,560
use that, but my new job doesn't.

403
00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:16,750
and the same with models, right?

404
00:19:16,750 --> 00:19:18,280
Like models and ides, they pay.

405
00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:21,060
so I would say that a lot of people like.

406
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,920
Your, maybe your choices aren't as
infinite as Viktor's in, in mine, but,

407
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:29,420
if they aren't, then your, your angle
of attack is to learn the crap out of

408
00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:33,710
that tool so that you can take advantage
of all of its specialty features.

409
00:19:33,710 --> 00:19:37,880
Because I think that's just as good as I,
I was worried about, Gemini for a second.

410
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,130
Like, Gemini comes out, oh,
everybody's telling me it's awesome.

411
00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:42,890
So I switched to the Gemini,
CLI, and I switch everything.

412
00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:44,670
and then I'm like, you know what I mean?

413
00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:46,620
I've lost all my, a lot of my advantages.

414
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:48,810
So why do I care about the
little edge it's given me?

415
00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:53,720
Because in five minutes and there's going
to be a new Claude model that's going to

416
00:19:53,990 --> 00:20:00,200
upend it, and I can just stick with one,
maybe one CLI and just wait for the model.

417
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,380
Like, anyway, that's my theory,

418
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:02,180
you know?

419
00:20:02,180 --> 00:20:05,420
I think that the quality of
models, when they're released,

420
00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:07,160
they're overhyped to begin with.

421
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:07,910
Yeah.

422
00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:13,060
But also that people forget that
it's not only about models, right.

423
00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:15,460
you can easily have a combination.

424
00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:18,790
And I, I'm inventing now, so
don't take this as me saying it.

425
00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:22,420
Kind of, you can say that, Hey,
Gemini three as a model works

426
00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:23,980
better than something else.

427
00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:30,870
But then Gemini three with Gemini
CLI, is still inferior to, let's

428
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:33,120
say Claude Code with, Sonnet.

429
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:33,840
Right?

430
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:34,230
Right.

431
00:20:34,475 --> 00:20:39,060
I, I would go as far as to say that Claude
Code with Haiku is better combination

432
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:42,390
than, than the one I mentioned earlier.

433
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:42,660
Right.

434
00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:45,840
not because models are better
or worse, but because it's a

435
00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:47,370
combination of things, right?

436
00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:47,880
Yeah.

437
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:47,890
Yeah,

438
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:48,600
yeah.

439
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:49,350
I mean, I agree.

440
00:20:49,445 --> 00:20:54,625
I think it's about what is actually
enhancing your productivity

441
00:20:54,625 --> 00:20:55,975
and getting out of your way.

442
00:20:56,525 --> 00:20:58,685
so there is a floor to the model, right?

443
00:20:58,685 --> 00:21:01,685
So like you were talking about
using some of the local models.

444
00:21:01,955 --> 00:21:02,555
If you're getting.

445
00:21:03,055 --> 00:21:06,835
Crap tokens back and it's
taking you minutes to get some

446
00:21:06,835 --> 00:21:08,635
output from your local model.

447
00:21:09,135 --> 00:21:10,395
That's the floor, right?

448
00:21:10,395 --> 00:21:14,955
Like, like these foundational
models from Anthropic or, you

449
00:21:14,955 --> 00:21:18,085
know, DeepSeek or others, Gemini.

450
00:21:18,365 --> 00:21:20,605
they're going to beat the pants
off of what you can probably run

451
00:21:20,605 --> 00:21:25,135
on your local machine for general,
like, just a general statement.

452
00:21:25,635 --> 00:21:28,695
maybe specific models for
specific tasks that you're doing

453
00:21:28,695 --> 00:21:30,375
of course could be much better.

454
00:21:30,875 --> 00:21:34,685
But general statement, there's
a floor to the model quality.

455
00:21:35,185 --> 00:21:38,875
But back to what Viktor just said, and
I could, I'm in in violent agreement

456
00:21:38,875 --> 00:21:41,175
with that, the tooling around that.

457
00:21:41,205 --> 00:21:43,365
Like we just talked about
skills for two seconds.

458
00:21:43,695 --> 00:21:44,625
That seems like.

459
00:21:45,125 --> 00:21:49,495
A very valuable thing to get out
of your way to get the most out of

460
00:21:49,495 --> 00:21:50,995
the model that you have access to.

461
00:21:51,385 --> 00:21:55,005
And so even if you had access to
Gemini but the tooling doesn't

462
00:21:55,505 --> 00:21:59,725
help you get out, you know, get the
most out of it, then like, does it

463
00:21:59,725 --> 00:22:01,525
really matter how good the model is?

464
00:22:01,825 --> 00:22:02,545
I don't think so.

465
00:22:02,545 --> 00:22:02,935
Yeah, exactly.

466
00:22:03,405 --> 00:22:06,855
yeah, and I think that's really where
people kind of get hung up right

467
00:22:06,855 --> 00:22:12,395
now is like chasing that incremental
quality of the model versus the

468
00:22:12,395 --> 00:22:14,465
patterns of using these tools.

469
00:22:14,915 --> 00:22:19,535
And the orientation of these
tools toward productivity.

470
00:22:20,035 --> 00:22:20,335
Right.

471
00:22:20,335 --> 00:22:25,805
And I, it seems like Viktor, like what
is it about Claude Code that matches your

472
00:22:25,805 --> 00:22:31,055
brain, your mental model of like how you
want to work with a model to enhance,

473
00:22:31,055 --> 00:22:34,455
like development or whatever you, you
know, what tasks you're doing with it.

474
00:22:35,005 --> 00:22:36,715
there are two answers to that.

475
00:22:36,805 --> 00:22:41,585
First would be how, you know,
or question that you should have

476
00:22:41,585 --> 00:22:44,035
asked first is terminal versus IDE.

477
00:22:44,605 --> 00:22:47,965
because I think that without entering
into what is better, because it'll

478
00:22:47,965 --> 00:22:51,865
depend, but they change the way
how we operate those things, right.

479
00:22:52,205 --> 00:22:54,695
Aren't you using both in some kind of way?

480
00:22:55,195 --> 00:22:57,715
I am using both but separately.

481
00:22:57,985 --> 00:22:58,375
Okay.

482
00:22:58,875 --> 00:23:03,885
so I do have, IDE open that serves
similar purpose, like Vim to be honest.

483
00:23:04,215 --> 00:23:07,035
but I might occasionally open a file.

484
00:23:07,335 --> 00:23:10,155
Literally command p
open a file, that's it.

485
00:23:10,245 --> 00:23:12,525
No, not even three structure
or anything like that.

486
00:23:13,025 --> 00:23:17,395
But in my case, I feel much
more comfortable with terminals

487
00:23:17,395 --> 00:23:19,345
simply because what they do is.

488
00:23:19,845 --> 00:23:22,275
I treat it almost like a person, right?

489
00:23:22,275 --> 00:23:23,145
I talk to it.

490
00:23:23,145 --> 00:23:25,935
I, I don't need other distractions, right?

491
00:23:26,435 --> 00:23:28,720
I, I, I don't need the list of files.

492
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,230
I don't need, to be
clicking here and there.

493
00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:34,560
I don't want to click any buttons
and I don't want to spend time

494
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,090
learning all the shortcuts.

495
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:37,860
it's, it's simply there.

496
00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:42,700
And I think that it would be in
a very similar question, like if

497
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:45,690
I would ask you, forget about AI
for a second, or agents, right?

498
00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:51,050
Do you use terminal separately from your
IDE or do you use terminal inside IDE?

499
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,310
And there is no wrong answer there, right?

500
00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:56,160
But I'm, I'm, I'm a separate terminal guy.

501
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,820
simply, it somehow feels better.

502
00:23:59,660 --> 00:24:01,960
and, I'm used to never touch the mouse.

503
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:06,030
Or it's not, never touch the mouse,
but I rarely touch the mouse, right?

504
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,310
it just feels so much easier, more
intuitive, and so on and so forth.

505
00:24:09,310 --> 00:24:11,080
Now, I'm not saying that
those features don't exist.

506
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:15,580
When you use agent in IDE,
it just somehow feels better.

507
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:16,950
it's about feelings.

508
00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:20,100
I don't know how to, there
are some cases where I cannot

509
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:22,280
give you tangible measurement.

510
00:24:22,330 --> 00:24:27,010
oh, I'm 20% more pro productive
in Claude Code than, than in, I

511
00:24:27,010 --> 00:24:28,330
don't know, Cursor or whatever

512
00:24:28,420 --> 00:24:28,570
You hear.

513
00:24:28,570 --> 00:24:29,530
We heard it here first.

514
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:32,330
Viktor is 20% more
productive with Claude Code.

515
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,400
by the way, Eric Smalling's opinion,

516
00:24:34,450 --> 00:24:38,140
My favorite tooling is whatever Viktor's
last show is about, then I forget

517
00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:39,520
about it and just use Claude Code.

518
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,370
So his default is Claude Code, but he's
willing to try whatever Viktor suggests.

519
00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:44,640
Yeah.

520
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:48,570
It sounds like the winner
here is the term CLI.

521
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:51,500
Winner is Ghostty plus
Claude Code or OpenCode.

522
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,326
I'm So if you can't use Claude Code,
'cause maybe your company doesn't

523
00:24:54,326 --> 00:24:59,226
pay for, Anthropic models, then maybe
your backup plan is to use OpenCode.

524
00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:03,166
I don't know this for a fact, but my
assumption is as much hype as I hear

525
00:25:03,166 --> 00:25:09,606
from open source terminal shell advocates
about OpenCode, I assume it's good enough

526
00:25:10,056 --> 00:25:15,936
to be competitive with like Gemini,
CLI or copilot, CLI or name me another

527
00:25:15,936 --> 00:25:18,036
model, CLI that just comes from Yeah,

528
00:25:18,456 --> 00:25:22,886
OpenCode is, or Codex CLI, in opinion
better than any other OpenCode is

529
00:25:22,886 --> 00:25:25,796
the top the best, in my opinion.

530
00:25:25,826 --> 00:25:28,076
Terminal based agent you can imagine.

531
00:25:28,576 --> 00:25:30,616
Except Claude Code that is
in a different category.

532
00:25:30,616 --> 00:25:33,916
So it's kind of like, you know, we
cannot compare soccer and basketball

533
00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:36,766
kind of like there, or first and
second league of soccer or whatever.

534
00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:40,806
Kind of, if you exclude Claude Code
a go with do and code, it's awesome.

535
00:25:40,896 --> 00:25:43,946
Absolutely awesome as long as you
don't compare it with Claude Code.

536
00:25:44,066 --> 00:25:48,146
So, so Bret, what's your
favorite AI CLI tool?

537
00:25:48,646 --> 00:25:50,116
well, I'm basically
agreeing with all that.

538
00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:53,956
I feel like I started the year at
iTerm, I ended the year in iTerm,

539
00:25:54,266 --> 00:25:55,446
I'm not going to debate Ghostty.

540
00:25:55,466 --> 00:25:59,296
I really just have one feature, muscle
memory thing with the Control F and

541
00:25:59,666 --> 00:26:03,446
they had some other issues with that
were minor issues in the ui, but those

542
00:26:03,446 --> 00:26:04,886
have all been fixed throughout the year.

543
00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:06,366
so I keep it installed.

544
00:26:06,366 --> 00:26:09,186
I switch back and forth every once
in a while to see, and Ghostty is

545
00:26:09,186 --> 00:26:11,616
fine until I immediately need to
search something on, like when I'm

546
00:26:11,616 --> 00:26:13,776
doing serious work at the shell.

547
00:26:13,896 --> 00:26:18,366
Probably not in my AI CLI, I'm just
in the shell and I want to search now.

548
00:26:18,696 --> 00:26:22,236
I will say I did, if you, if you
watch videos or the live streams

549
00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:24,576
of us over the year, you will
hear me for like three months.

550
00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:28,806
Not shut up about Warp Terminal
2.0 when that was released in June.

551
00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:32,470
That made waves and I gave another shot.

552
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,990
'cause I did, I gave Warp 1.0 some time.

553
00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:39,440
It wasn't like it was around for
years, it was fast, because I think

554
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,720
they were doing rust and claiming
it was faster than other terminals.

555
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,940
It was fast, but it feels like
a young person's tool because

556
00:26:45,940 --> 00:26:51,070
I am 30 years of muscle memory
into how pseudo terminals work.

557
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:52,990
And it is the opposite of that.

558
00:26:53,050 --> 00:26:55,450
And I appreciate their revising
and they talk about it.

559
00:26:55,450 --> 00:27:00,290
They're re-envisioning the CLI, what does
a terminal, what does a shell behave like?

560
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,935
And the problem is, is the
advantages don't for me outweigh

561
00:27:06,055 --> 00:27:09,145
the muscle memory and the efficiency
of what I've already done.

562
00:27:09,475 --> 00:27:15,615
So, because I know, you know ZSH
idioms, I know shell shortcuts.

563
00:27:15,855 --> 00:27:17,535
I know all the little,
you know the control.

564
00:27:17,535 --> 00:27:20,625
SI know you know how
to command completion.

565
00:27:20,655 --> 00:27:21,465
I know all these things.

566
00:27:21,465 --> 00:27:23,655
And Warp throws all that out
the window and says, no, no.

567
00:27:23,655 --> 00:27:24,525
Rethink everything.

568
00:27:24,895 --> 00:27:29,765
and it does make more sense if you
don't know the history of how terminals

569
00:27:29,765 --> 00:27:32,015
have, I've always had to work since
green screens in the seventies, of

570
00:27:32,015 --> 00:27:33,155
which, that's where I came from, right?

571
00:27:33,155 --> 00:27:36,365
Like, maybe not the seventies, but I
was using, my first job in the US Navy

572
00:27:36,365 --> 00:27:39,185
was managing green screens and trouble,
and I actually had to repair them.

573
00:27:39,545 --> 00:27:44,305
So I think that my old school muscle
memory is actually preventing me from

574
00:27:44,545 --> 00:27:46,615
enjoying Warp terminal two better.

575
00:27:46,915 --> 00:27:48,925
for me warp two would be
great if you're young.

576
00:27:48,925 --> 00:27:52,015
If you're learning terminals now, and you
just want to try something new and fresh.

577
00:27:52,315 --> 00:27:53,215
Great idea.

578
00:27:53,425 --> 00:27:54,205
Give it a shot.

579
00:27:54,445 --> 00:27:56,545
The one thing that broke
it for me was that.

580
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:02,410
The reason I had to leave Warp was
because command completion for them is

581
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,660
they break all ZSH command completion.

582
00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:07,890
So the only way it works in Warp
is they have to add manually c

583
00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:10,860
command completion for each tool,
which to me, one isn't sustainable.

584
00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:14,330
Like there's a, there's a
thousand tools, and two, I don't

585
00:28:14,330 --> 00:28:15,770
live strictly in a dev world.

586
00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:17,540
I live more in a DevOps and ops world.

587
00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:21,110
So I have a lot more, I think I
have a lot more command line tools

588
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:22,310
than a typical dev might have.

589
00:28:22,670 --> 00:28:26,480
You know, like, think of all the, all the,
the, the Kubernetes terminal tools we have

590
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,170
and all that stuff, and those don't have
command completion and warp, which means

591
00:28:30,170 --> 00:28:35,030
I'm forced to use two terminals because I,
I, I totally depend on command completion.

592
00:28:35,030 --> 00:28:37,970
AI command completion doesn't really
work well for a lot of those tools yet.

593
00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:42,470
And so then I have to go the, and then
the minute I have to have my old terminal

594
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:45,200
and the new terminal up, I want to throw
one away and I throw away the new one.

595
00:28:45,530 --> 00:28:45,740
Yeah.

596
00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:46,130
Right.

597
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:46,425
Like, so.

598
00:28:46,865 --> 00:28:46,955
That

599
00:28:47,455 --> 00:28:48,535
defeats the whole entire purpose.

600
00:28:48,565 --> 00:28:48,745
Yeah.

601
00:28:48,795 --> 00:28:49,225
Viktor, it's not

602
00:28:49,225 --> 00:28:55,035
that Warp's bad, it's just very, it's
in a very competitive landscape and I, I

603
00:28:55,035 --> 00:28:58,605
don't know that it has the edge it needs
to sustain itself, but good luck to them.

604
00:28:58,605 --> 00:28:59,655
I'm excited for their product.

605
00:28:59,795 --> 00:29:00,345
Viktor, go.

606
00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:04,245
So I want to push back on your comment.

607
00:29:04,245 --> 00:29:06,525
If you're young, I feel
completely opposite opinion.

608
00:29:06,555 --> 00:29:06,705
Okay.

609
00:29:06,705 --> 00:29:11,175
If you're young, that's the reason not to
use it, because then you will never learn.

610
00:29:11,675 --> 00:29:12,695
Mm-hmm.

611
00:29:12,725 --> 00:29:14,165
You'll learn when it doesn't work anymore.

612
00:29:14,255 --> 00:29:15,215
Kind of, you'll learn it basic.

613
00:29:15,215 --> 00:29:15,695
There are some

614
00:29:15,695 --> 00:29:18,815
basics that you need to know, no
matter which technology we use,

615
00:29:19,055 --> 00:29:23,915
no matter how we operate, the real
systems are not running work terminal.

616
00:29:24,155 --> 00:29:27,065
Kind of like you will not know
what to do when something happens.

617
00:29:27,455 --> 00:29:27,845
Yeah.

618
00:29:28,955 --> 00:29:29,465
Please don't.

619
00:29:29,915 --> 00:29:30,155
Okay.

620
00:29:30,245 --> 00:29:34,565
Now, if you're older, said, okay, I did
my dues, I, I want to switch to something

621
00:29:34,565 --> 00:29:36,395
more productive and Warp works for you.

622
00:29:36,545 --> 00:29:37,445
Great.

623
00:29:37,805 --> 00:29:38,555
Amazing.

624
00:29:39,055 --> 00:29:39,625
Do it.

625
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:43,720
But not at the expense of never
figuring out how to actually work.

626
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:45,610
I mean, that's fundamental Yeah.

627
00:29:45,610 --> 00:29:47,530
To all of these tools, right?

628
00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:48,490
I mean, this is, yeah.

629
00:29:48,550 --> 00:29:53,420
This is the essence of, of the challenge
that college professors are going through

630
00:29:53,420 --> 00:29:55,190
right now with their courses, right?

631
00:29:55,190 --> 00:30:00,700
Like all these tools just do, and
they hide what they're doing if you

632
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:03,340
don't, and they're wrong, right?

633
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:03,520
Yeah.

634
00:30:04,420 --> 00:30:09,910
And so, there's a cliff here for, with
all these things where regardless of

635
00:30:09,910 --> 00:30:15,520
Claude code or, or Warp or Copilot,
you do have to take them a moment

636
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,990
to understand what it's doing.

637
00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:21,430
And I'm, I'm assuming y'all are,
are you all running your AI tools

638
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:26,130
in terminal, in YOLO mode where
they just have rampant authority to

639
00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:29,210
run any script or modify any file?

640
00:30:29,660 --> 00:30:30,020
Never.

641
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:30,920
No, never.

642
00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:32,890
I'm seeing listen to the container.

643
00:30:33,390 --> 00:30:35,640
Not unless it's in a container,
but I don't normally develop

644
00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:36,780
do it in a container yet.

645
00:30:36,810 --> 00:30:39,330
Kyle Quest, by the way, is
pointing out that war's really

646
00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:40,980
great for shell stuff with DevOps.

647
00:30:40,980 --> 00:30:44,010
He likes it and ha and does the
agent stuff and container tasking.

648
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:44,250
Correct?

649
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:44,880
I do agree.

650
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,720
I love that it has native notifications
and that it has a little panel

651
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:49,440
that you can keep track of.

652
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,970
All the agents working in the background.

653
00:30:51,470 --> 00:30:55,830
that is neat stuff, but it's not enough of
advantage over a typical multi-terminal.

654
00:30:55,830 --> 00:31:00,590
Like I'm an iTerm with three different
windows and five different tabs and like

655
00:31:00,590 --> 00:31:06,100
I've, I've got my setup, I've got my
process there and it was to revise myself.

656
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,510
I completely agree with
everything Viktor said.

657
00:31:07,750 --> 00:31:11,350
It does not, subs warp is not a
replacement for learning other.

658
00:31:11,725 --> 00:31:13,495
Foundational shell tooling.

659
00:31:13,735 --> 00:31:19,105
For me, it was about, mostly about
iTerms like the way that I open tabs

660
00:31:19,105 --> 00:31:23,845
and shells and windows and I, I actually
use, you know, command I to label

661
00:31:23,845 --> 00:31:28,195
terminals and I colorize them and I do
all sorts of things and I have different

662
00:31:28,195 --> 00:31:30,295
profiles and all that stuff you're
complaining about in the settings.

663
00:31:30,295 --> 00:31:33,835
I really heavily use all that stuff 'cause
I've been using it for over 15 years.

664
00:31:33,835 --> 00:31:35,545
So it's that part.

665
00:31:35,545 --> 00:31:38,125
That's why it's going to be hard for me
to shift a Ghostty or whatever because

666
00:31:38,125 --> 00:31:40,165
I will lose a lot of my preferences.

667
00:31:40,165 --> 00:31:43,605
And the way that I, the way that
I use the graphic interface of

668
00:31:43,605 --> 00:31:45,855
the iTerm that more so than warp.

669
00:31:45,855 --> 00:31:50,655
And warp is just, I feel like too,
too young it has its set way, it's

670
00:31:50,655 --> 00:31:53,385
very opinionated and you, it's
hard to deviate outside of that.

671
00:31:53,385 --> 00:31:57,285
And that's what is hard for me
to really commit to long term.

672
00:31:57,315 --> 00:31:57,795
So

673
00:31:58,295 --> 00:32:00,575
to me it doesn't feel like
terminal, to be honest.

674
00:32:01,070 --> 00:32:04,330
Yeah, it feels like IDE, and
nothing against IDEs here.

675
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:04,930
Right.

676
00:32:04,930 --> 00:32:06,100
But it doesn't feel like terminal.

677
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:09,750
Kind of like I have problem with,
with wasted space over there.

678
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:13,500
I don't see the information I need
because everything occupies so much space.

679
00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:14,190
Yeah.

680
00:32:14,190 --> 00:32:16,020
The default format isn't compact.

681
00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:19,620
That's an's a setting, but it's like,
it's not as good as Yeah, exactly.

682
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:23,680
It's, it's very opinionated in a way
that it's going for readability, not

683
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,970
density of, of content, which can then
mean your screens don't show as much.

684
00:32:27,970 --> 00:32:30,010
And that also was frustrating for me.

685
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,870
I will put in a mention of goose.

686
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:38,430
Like, goose to me was better for
people that aren't quite developers.

687
00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:41,820
Like maybe they're developer adjacent,
like maybe they're people that have

688
00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:44,630
developers in their team, but they
hear about all this agent stuff,

689
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:46,280
but they're maybe not CLI people.

690
00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:49,430
And so they can manage
multiple agents through a GUI.

691
00:32:49,715 --> 00:32:52,775
But they don't need to look at, they
don't need to stare at code, but maybe

692
00:32:52,775 --> 00:32:57,845
they need something other than five
different ChatGPT windows open, you

693
00:32:57,845 --> 00:32:58,805
know, they need something like that.

694
00:32:58,805 --> 00:33:03,415
And that's where I feel like
Goose might have an edge anyway.

695
00:33:03,988 --> 00:33:04,288
Normal.

696
00:33:04,288 --> 00:33:05,713
Tell us what your, what your PIX are.

697
00:33:05,718 --> 00:33:10,188
yeah, so I'm going to pick, and this
is, you know, my opinion, I'm going to

698
00:33:10,188 --> 00:33:15,328
go a little bit different and say, AWS
kiro for both the CLI, formerly known as

699
00:33:15,328 --> 00:33:19,468
Amazon QCLI, or QCLI and, the Kiro IDE.

700
00:33:20,488 --> 00:33:25,478
not that it's, necessarily like, you
know, the best thing since sliced

701
00:33:25,478 --> 00:33:32,008
bread, but the idea for the CLI,
it's just, I enjoy working with it.

702
00:33:32,038 --> 00:33:34,408
It has those slash commands.

703
00:33:34,408 --> 00:33:34,708
It.

704
00:33:35,208 --> 00:33:37,608
Gets your MCP, it's just
like straightforward.

705
00:33:37,938 --> 00:33:45,448
And for the operations of EKS clusters,
AWS environments, it, comes with some

706
00:33:45,448 --> 00:33:50,488
of those MCP servers if you want out
of the box, for AWS documentation

707
00:33:50,698 --> 00:33:55,258
for the work I do and the, and the
customers I support, it has been

708
00:33:55,558 --> 00:33:58,548
great to just be a better operator.

709
00:33:58,548 --> 00:34:02,978
And also, you know, I have to understand
what my, what my customers are doing

710
00:34:02,978 --> 00:34:04,448
and how they're using our tools.

711
00:34:04,478 --> 00:34:06,868
And so I live in, in that world.

712
00:34:07,258 --> 00:34:10,918
Of course, it helps that it's
available to me as an employee.

713
00:34:11,338 --> 00:34:17,028
I do enjoy Claude Code a lot and
I. I wish there was like this.

714
00:34:17,028 --> 00:34:18,138
I think we'll get there.

715
00:34:18,588 --> 00:34:21,498
But all these cons, like,
there's like little pieces of

716
00:34:21,498 --> 00:34:22,698
different tools that I've used.

717
00:34:22,698 --> 00:34:24,228
I used Cline earlier this year.

718
00:34:24,468 --> 00:34:25,518
Love that a lot.

719
00:34:25,588 --> 00:34:29,688
and especially to be able to dig in to
some of the details in its thinking.

720
00:34:30,048 --> 00:34:34,753
but out of all these tools, Claude
Code has a lot of paradigms and then

721
00:34:34,753 --> 00:34:40,453
Kiro IDE has like the spec driven
development, the idea of really thinking

722
00:34:40,453 --> 00:34:45,333
through how you're going to use the
tool and the project management.

723
00:34:45,813 --> 00:34:51,353
And it feels much more like how you
would actually use this in an enterprise.

724
00:34:51,803 --> 00:34:58,583
and also it's, or it orients you toward
being successful with the output of

725
00:34:58,583 --> 00:35:01,483
these LLMs, which I really appreciate.

726
00:35:01,603 --> 00:35:03,643
And we can get into
spec-driven development and

727
00:35:03,643 --> 00:35:04,753
all that a little bit more.

728
00:35:05,253 --> 00:35:09,243
At some point in the future, I wish all
of these things, like all the awesome

729
00:35:09,243 --> 00:35:14,123
bits from all these tools would just
be in one, and there would be just

730
00:35:14,123 --> 00:35:17,463
like some kind of, there, this wouldn't
even be a debate anymore because we've

731
00:35:17,463 --> 00:35:23,243
just like settled on how these tools
work and it's, it gets out of your way.

732
00:35:23,243 --> 00:35:28,383
But for me, you know, at at Reinvent,
I, I helped host a hackathon on a bus

733
00:35:28,743 --> 00:35:35,803
where a, I think 50 developers were
using Kiro to build apps in six hours.

734
00:35:36,143 --> 00:35:41,223
and they didn't really run into many
issues, with random teams of people.

735
00:35:41,223 --> 00:35:44,313
They just met getting
together and building an app.

736
00:35:44,733 --> 00:35:47,913
And I think that's the power of
like, the spec driven development.

737
00:35:48,413 --> 00:35:51,083
but I'm excited to see
where these tools go.

738
00:35:51,083 --> 00:35:52,463
I'm of course, hedging my bets here.

739
00:35:52,823 --> 00:35:56,623
I'm excited to see where these
tools go when they're bridging.

740
00:35:57,103 --> 00:36:02,813
The age agentic, non-deterministic
components of, these tools

741
00:36:03,113 --> 00:36:07,913
with the deterministic normal
code that we're writing.

742
00:36:08,343 --> 00:36:12,543
and to me, like the SPECT driven
development, there's another

743
00:36:12,543 --> 00:36:16,403
paradigm, A-I-D-L-C where you're
planning through, you're thinking

744
00:36:16,403 --> 00:36:20,193
through, what the project's going
to be, you're, you're going through

745
00:36:20,193 --> 00:36:24,643
it at, in a task orientation, makes
sense in terms of bridging that.

746
00:36:24,913 --> 00:36:27,763
And also, I think we're going
to start seeing a little bit

747
00:36:27,763 --> 00:36:33,403
more formal verification or
formal methods of verifying what

748
00:36:33,403 --> 00:36:34,903
the output of these tools are.

749
00:36:35,403 --> 00:36:36,873
Are what you asked for.

750
00:36:37,233 --> 00:36:42,633
And if you go the spec driven development
route, you have a framework for being able

751
00:36:42,633 --> 00:36:44,673
to take advantage of that in the future.

752
00:36:45,173 --> 00:36:46,223
So that's my answer.

753
00:36:47,384 --> 00:36:49,954
so, when you say Kiro IDE, that's web?

754
00:36:50,454 --> 00:36:50,874
No.

755
00:36:50,994 --> 00:36:56,404
So there's a Kiro IDE, it's called
Kiro and it's its own thing.

756
00:36:56,584 --> 00:37:01,194
And then there's Kiro, CLI, which
is the, it used to be called QCLI,

757
00:37:01,194 --> 00:37:03,024
but it was rebranded to Kiro.

758
00:37:03,464 --> 00:37:07,154
Is Kiro IDE just a another vs.

759
00:37:07,154 --> 00:37:08,114
Clone a VS.

760
00:37:08,264 --> 00:37:09,014
Code clone?

761
00:37:09,514 --> 00:37:12,184
Yes, but it's, there's some.

762
00:37:12,259 --> 00:37:14,254
M modifications to it for sure.

763
00:37:14,254 --> 00:37:15,519
Yeah, it looks pretty, it looks heavily

764
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:16,449
modified, but yeah.

765
00:37:16,479 --> 00:37:16,929
Yeah.

766
00:37:17,429 --> 00:37:17,639
All right.

767
00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:21,929
By the way, my pick was actually, my
pick isn't what everyone else should use.

768
00:37:21,929 --> 00:37:25,529
It's the picks were like, what
I'm using and then what I'm using

769
00:37:25,529 --> 00:37:27,989
in right now is Copilot CLI.

770
00:37:28,319 --> 00:37:29,489
So, okay.

771
00:37:29,539 --> 00:37:33,399
and it's not because I chose
it over Claude Code because

772
00:37:33,399 --> 00:37:34,269
I thought it was better.

773
00:37:34,419 --> 00:37:36,669
It's because it's what is free for me.

774
00:37:36,789 --> 00:37:42,639
And it is, I'm influenced by
money and it, I do like that it's

775
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:45,399
integrated with VS Code's IDE.

776
00:37:46,179 --> 00:37:49,164
So I can have the conver, I can
start a conversation in the CL,

777
00:37:49,299 --> 00:37:52,659
I continue that conversation with
the context in the IDE and then go

778
00:37:52,659 --> 00:37:54,669
back to the CLI like, I like that.

779
00:37:54,919 --> 00:37:57,039
so I do that a lot, but that's just

780
00:37:57,189 --> 00:37:57,429
me.

781
00:37:57,669 --> 00:38:00,299
Can I, can I make a
suggestion to you, Bret?

782
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,309
Can you open a GoFundMe?

783
00:38:02,809 --> 00:38:04,009
create a GoFundMe.

784
00:38:04,109 --> 00:38:05,489
I pay for Claude code.

785
00:38:05,729 --> 00:38:07,424
I pay $20 a month for Claude code.

786
00:38:07,424 --> 00:38:07,624
No, no,

787
00:38:07,624 --> 00:38:07,824
no, no.

788
00:38:07,949 --> 00:38:08,369
You did.

789
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:09,509
Wait, I didn't finish.

790
00:38:09,509 --> 00:38:13,319
I mean, I think you need GoFundMe hand
fund me because I think that people will

791
00:38:13,319 --> 00:38:18,529
churn in because you definitely need
money to pay a psychologist after all the

792
00:38:18,529 --> 00:38:20,779
drama you were experiencing this year.

793
00:38:21,439 --> 00:38:21,679
Right.

794
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:25,059
So I used copilot, CLI with, yeah.

795
00:38:25,059 --> 00:38:25,359
Okay.

796
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:29,279
When you ignite term, I said,
okay, you know, things happen,

797
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:30,809
but then you added copilot.

798
00:38:30,809 --> 00:38:31,949
CLI cannot.

799
00:38:32,009 --> 00:38:34,444
Definitely that trauma, it's too
far needs to be, it's too far.

800
00:38:35,067 --> 00:38:38,607
It needs to be resolved because it'll
count you for the rest of your life.

801
00:38:40,077 --> 00:38:40,137
So.

802
00:38:40,637 --> 00:38:41,927
So it's a quick advice, express

803
00:38:41,927 --> 00:38:43,432
cry for help, professional, professional.

804
00:38:43,437 --> 00:38:46,607
So we're going to have a private therapy
session where Viktor is going to walk me

805
00:38:46,607 --> 00:38:52,157
through my horrible Copilot experience and
why Claude Code is so much better at it.

806
00:38:52,157 --> 00:38:55,577
But that is too long for this
podcast, so don't take my advice.

807
00:38:55,577 --> 00:38:58,577
I'm just saying it's what I
stuck with the most this year

808
00:38:58,577 --> 00:38:59,897
over all the things I tried.

809
00:38:59,897 --> 00:39:03,757
I played, I tried codex when suddenly,
you know, whatever 5.0 came out.

810
00:39:03,757 --> 00:39:05,647
Everyone was like, oh, Codex,
Codex CLI, blah, blah, blah.

811
00:39:05,647 --> 00:39:06,397
I tried that.

812
00:39:06,397 --> 00:39:08,197
Like, but I'm using very basics.

813
00:39:08,197 --> 00:39:12,007
I'm not using all the features and
throwing, you know, I'm not using

814
00:39:12,247 --> 00:39:13,867
the latest functionality in there.

815
00:39:13,867 --> 00:39:14,827
So I, I understand.

816
00:39:14,827 --> 00:39:16,232
I'm not necessarily code
course, target course

817
00:39:16,232 --> 00:39:18,797
you're using basics because you
cannot find features in iTerm

818
00:39:20,137 --> 00:39:21,607
and compiler doesn't have them.

819
00:39:21,607 --> 00:39:24,057
So of course you are fair,

820
00:39:24,417 --> 00:39:24,477
all.

821
00:39:24,537 --> 00:39:27,887
So, before's, before we turn this into
the only thing we talked about with CLI

822
00:39:27,887 --> 00:39:30,197
tools, I'm going to change subjects on us.

823
00:39:30,417 --> 00:39:33,567
we touched on ides, so visual editors.

824
00:39:34,067 --> 00:39:34,367
Yes.

825
00:39:34,367 --> 00:39:34,997
Another topic.

826
00:39:34,997 --> 00:39:36,197
We've got tons of them.

827
00:39:36,617 --> 00:39:39,817
Almost every CLI has a companion IDE.

828
00:39:40,207 --> 00:39:42,187
I feel like at this
point, maybe not Gemini.

829
00:39:42,187 --> 00:39:44,827
I don't know what Well, Google has
oh yeah, windsurf now, now, right?

830
00:39:45,327 --> 00:39:45,627
Gravity.

831
00:39:45,657 --> 00:39:45,837
Oh, no.

832
00:39:45,837 --> 00:39:46,437
Anti-gravity.

833
00:39:46,437 --> 00:39:46,447
Gravity.

834
00:39:46,647 --> 00:39:47,427
Who's got windsurf now?

835
00:39:47,427 --> 00:39:47,517
No

836
00:39:47,517 --> 00:39:47,877
anti

837
00:39:49,557 --> 00:39:49,887
windsurf.

838
00:39:49,917 --> 00:39:50,157
Google.

839
00:39:50,157 --> 00:39:50,607
Google.

840
00:39:50,607 --> 00:39:51,447
Also, he has

841
00:39:51,447 --> 00:39:53,092
people from Windsurf, not windsurf.

842
00:39:53,097 --> 00:39:56,007
Windsurf turned is turning
into, well, we think like the

843
00:39:56,247 --> 00:39:59,517
winds surf's team is building
antigravity or something like that.

844
00:39:59,517 --> 00:40:00,687
So who knows?

845
00:40:00,717 --> 00:40:02,967
I tried that for five minutes and
went Yeah, it's like all the others.

846
00:40:03,027 --> 00:40:03,357
So,

847
00:40:03,857 --> 00:40:04,127
yeah.

848
00:40:04,627 --> 00:40:07,377
I kind of already answered
that, but I would say Kiro.

849
00:40:07,847 --> 00:40:09,787
I am productive with it.

850
00:40:10,267 --> 00:40:12,367
I like the spec driven development.

851
00:40:12,367 --> 00:40:13,387
I'll say that again.

852
00:40:13,727 --> 00:40:17,237
we should have another show, Bret,
on like these paradigms, like

853
00:40:17,237 --> 00:40:20,297
A-I-D-D-L-C spectrum development.

854
00:40:20,727 --> 00:40:23,237
I like, it's, it's just straightforward.

855
00:40:23,637 --> 00:40:25,977
it's easy to get started and use.

856
00:40:26,057 --> 00:40:30,067
and I just watched a bunch of
developers in a time constrained

857
00:40:30,067 --> 00:40:32,407
manner be very productive with it.

858
00:40:32,797 --> 00:40:37,531
I can't say a percentage of productivity
with it, but you know, that's a good test.

859
00:40:37,901 --> 00:40:41,991
and I'm biased because, I get it
for free from AWS as an employee.

860
00:40:42,491 --> 00:40:44,121
Alright, so you're saying Kiro.

861
00:40:44,141 --> 00:40:48,131
so by the way, with Kiro, CLI,
you would be using what terminal

862
00:40:48,431 --> 00:40:49,791
before you just installed Ghostty.

863
00:40:49,791 --> 00:40:50,681
What was before Ghostty?

864
00:40:50,696 --> 00:40:51,791
Just, just terminal?

865
00:40:51,791 --> 00:40:52,111
iTerm.

866
00:40:52,501 --> 00:40:52,981
iTerm.

867
00:40:53,321 --> 00:40:53,681
Okay.

868
00:40:54,181 --> 00:40:55,021
Yeah, I mean,

869
00:40:55,521 --> 00:40:57,246
I won't, I will refrain
Frain from saying it.

870
00:40:57,261 --> 00:40:59,491
'cause it sounds like you're
going to be a convert to Ghostty.

871
00:40:59,511 --> 00:41:00,171
So, yeah,

872
00:41:00,231 --> 00:41:00,721
I am.

873
00:41:00,806 --> 00:41:04,501
I have Ghostty running now
for, what, 20 minutes and it's.

874
00:41:05,001 --> 00:41:06,811
The, I'm already thinking
I'm going to like it.

875
00:41:07,641 --> 00:41:10,971
It is, it is definitely the one
for you if you're not Mac too,

876
00:41:10,971 --> 00:41:12,591
because like iTerm is only Mac.

877
00:41:12,691 --> 00:41:13,286
and true.

878
00:41:13,501 --> 00:41:14,491
You know, so you're,

879
00:41:14,991 --> 00:41:18,441
and if you don't have high
expectations feature wise, just

880
00:41:18,441 --> 00:41:20,301
to be fully transparent, right.

881
00:41:20,541 --> 00:41:23,541
You will not get iTerm
fanciness or anything like that.

882
00:41:24,111 --> 00:41:25,191
It's just a terminal.

883
00:41:25,311 --> 00:41:25,731
Yeah.

884
00:41:25,731 --> 00:41:29,001
I don't, I don't think I take
advantage of all the iTerm fanciness

885
00:41:29,001 --> 00:41:32,621
because it's hard to take advantage
of all of it to understand it.

886
00:41:32,711 --> 00:41:34,121
Back to what you were saying, Viktor,

887
00:41:34,451 --> 00:41:36,491
I have plenty of developer friends.

888
00:41:36,761 --> 00:41:36,971
Yeah.

889
00:41:36,971 --> 00:41:39,491
I have plenty of developer
friends that are terminal people,

890
00:41:39,491 --> 00:41:40,901
that are Mac terminal people.

891
00:41:40,901 --> 00:41:44,171
So like when I see them running
terminal, I lose my shit.

892
00:41:44,671 --> 00:41:46,261
Ghostty is for them, right?

893
00:41:46,261 --> 00:41:49,561
Because it's, it's definitely faster than
the, my understanding is it's definitely

894
00:41:49,561 --> 00:41:53,971
faster than Mac terminal and it has
a lot of much nicer built in themes.

895
00:41:54,391 --> 00:41:57,751
The ones that are built into the
Mac terminal, are mostly garbage.

896
00:41:58,181 --> 00:42:01,661
so yeah, it does it, and it supports,
like you said, it supports nerd fonts.

897
00:42:01,991 --> 00:42:04,811
One of the best things to come
out of terminals is nerd fonts

898
00:42:04,811 --> 00:42:06,191
in many years, so it's great.

899
00:42:06,691 --> 00:42:08,401
Viktor, what is your IDE of choice?

900
00:42:08,401 --> 00:42:10,141
I, I'm not sure that
you've me mentioned it.

901
00:42:10,641 --> 00:42:11,091
None.

902
00:42:11,591 --> 00:42:12,191
None.

903
00:42:12,941 --> 00:42:18,786
Ooh, I, so I, I do have, IDE open, all
the time and I, the only thing that I

904
00:42:18,786 --> 00:42:24,096
do in that IDE is command P to start
typing the file that I want to open.

905
00:42:24,096 --> 00:42:26,736
Open it if I want to
check it in more detail.

906
00:42:26,796 --> 00:42:27,126
Right.

907
00:42:27,626 --> 00:42:29,756
I use it for that exclusively.

908
00:42:29,756 --> 00:42:31,946
I don't use IDE for anything else.

909
00:42:31,946 --> 00:42:36,411
I'm not saying that they're bad, just
can, terminal based agency is very spent.

910
00:42:36,911 --> 00:42:39,991
Almost all my time,
occasionally look at the file.

911
00:42:40,201 --> 00:42:44,011
So if I, whichever choice I would
give you, I cannot justify this

912
00:42:44,011 --> 00:42:48,381
that is looking at the file is
better in one over the other.

913
00:42:48,501 --> 00:42:48,801
Right.

914
00:42:49,191 --> 00:42:52,221
So I'm not against them,
just I don't use them.

915
00:42:52,721 --> 00:42:55,466
So this half of the year,
this half of the year.

916
00:42:55,466 --> 00:42:57,581
So, so what if you needed to like

917
00:42:57,581 --> 00:42:59,531
rename the top of the read Me.

918
00:42:59,561 --> 00:43:03,401
Would you use like Neo Vim, I mean,
you're in the shell, would you just

919
00:43:03,401 --> 00:43:06,991
use like a, a Vim variant or like, I
mean, if you needed a one line edit,

920
00:43:06,991 --> 00:43:08,491
you wouldn't ask an AI to do that.

921
00:43:08,491 --> 00:43:08,731
Right?

922
00:43:08,731 --> 00:43:11,011
would you just open up VS Code for that?

923
00:43:11,101 --> 00:43:12,841
Would, do you, would
you use Cursor for that?

924
00:43:13,291 --> 00:43:13,531
No.

925
00:43:14,031 --> 00:43:14,496
First of all.

926
00:43:14,996 --> 00:43:16,226
I would just say I to do it.

927
00:43:16,676 --> 00:43:17,546
Let's start with that.

928
00:43:18,811 --> 00:43:20,251
so you're having a AI edit,

929
00:43:20,251 --> 00:43:21,211
one line changes.

930
00:43:21,211 --> 00:43:21,631
Okay.

931
00:43:21,691 --> 00:43:25,191
See, I, I can't get it to be that
precise, so I'm faster than the

932
00:43:25,191 --> 00:43:26,991
AI when I need to change one line.

933
00:43:27,081 --> 00:43:27,411
So, look,

934
00:43:27,911 --> 00:43:31,451
I can seriously issue throughout my
life that I'm like speaking with people,

935
00:43:31,901 --> 00:43:35,201
and now all of a sudden that's okay
because they don't talk back to me.

936
00:43:35,471 --> 00:43:36,461
I'm always right.

937
00:43:36,961 --> 00:43:38,651
Kind of like, and I want,
I want more of that.

938
00:43:39,156 --> 00:43:39,456
So you

939
00:43:39,456 --> 00:43:41,221
like, you like your
terminal to be sycophantic.

940
00:43:41,701 --> 00:43:42,181
Yeah.

941
00:43:42,301 --> 00:43:42,511
No.

942
00:43:42,511 --> 00:43:47,581
So actually what I do is that in, in
my terminal in ghost, I have different

943
00:43:47,581 --> 00:43:49,481
types, for different projects.

944
00:43:49,661 --> 00:43:52,151
Sometimes I work in multiple
projects at the same time, which

945
00:43:52,151 --> 00:43:53,741
is badness, but bear with me.

946
00:43:54,131 --> 00:43:56,771
And each of those top has
two pains up and down.

947
00:43:57,271 --> 00:44:02,191
one pane is Claude Code, another
one is just pure terminal.

948
00:44:02,431 --> 00:44:06,751
When I need to do those things,
like vi going back to your

949
00:44:06,751 --> 00:44:09,251
question, And Bret, change one line.

950
00:44:09,311 --> 00:44:10,571
Yeah, I would use vi, right?

951
00:44:10,781 --> 00:44:11,951
Execute some command.

952
00:44:12,341 --> 00:44:12,911
Still do it.

953
00:44:12,911 --> 00:44:17,561
So I just switch up, go up and down, or
full screen if I need only one of those

954
00:44:17,561 --> 00:44:18,921
panes and that, that's my workflow.

955
00:44:19,421 --> 00:44:19,631
All right.

956
00:44:19,631 --> 00:44:21,461
I'm, I'm putting nine and
I don't recommend it to

957
00:44:21,461 --> 00:44:22,571
everybody, just to be clear.

958
00:44:22,571 --> 00:44:24,341
Kind of, I just freaky that, that's all.

959
00:44:24,341 --> 00:44:24,551
Yeah.

960
00:44:25,051 --> 00:44:28,191
Well, and you know, like,
it, it's a purist approach.

961
00:44:28,321 --> 00:44:33,941
and I sympathize or, or align with that
because there are days where I'm like,

962
00:44:34,211 --> 00:44:35,801
I don't want anything on my screen.

963
00:44:35,981 --> 00:44:38,291
I just want a giant terminal window.

964
00:44:38,591 --> 00:44:40,361
And I don't want to leave
this terminal window.

965
00:44:40,361 --> 00:44:42,331
So if I'm editing something,
it's going to be in Neovim.

966
00:44:42,701 --> 00:44:44,501
which, you know, I go
back and forth between VS.

967
00:44:44,501 --> 00:44:45,891
Code and Neovim, Kyle Quest.

968
00:44:45,891 --> 00:44:47,901
And Chad is asking about anyone using Zed.

969
00:44:48,201 --> 00:44:49,971
I have Zed open right now.

970
00:44:50,241 --> 00:44:53,901
It, I've used it as a text note taker,
like it is, I'm actually tracking

971
00:44:53,901 --> 00:44:55,671
our show notes with it right now.

972
00:44:55,921 --> 00:44:56,851
it's super fast.

973
00:44:56,851 --> 00:44:58,561
It replaced my sublime.

974
00:44:59,061 --> 00:45:03,711
text editor, sublime Text, which
that replaced whatever was before VS.

975
00:45:03,711 --> 00:45:04,131
Code.

976
00:45:04,131 --> 00:45:05,151
The Adam editor.

977
00:45:05,421 --> 00:45:09,861
So Zed is my go-to random
editor of, of text.

978
00:45:09,861 --> 00:45:14,091
But I do see a lot of people using Zed,
full time, especially in the Go world.

979
00:45:14,091 --> 00:45:17,751
They, they tend to like
Zed as a Golang editor, but

980
00:45:18,251 --> 00:45:19,271
Zed is awesome.

981
00:45:19,771 --> 00:45:22,861
If I would be using it, I would
be using Zed to be honest.

982
00:45:22,861 --> 00:45:26,116
If I would bad installing it,
I had it for quite some time.

983
00:45:26,616 --> 00:45:32,316
What is really, and I suspect that
next year will be the year of Zed,

984
00:45:32,816 --> 00:45:37,186
because what makes Zed special,
forget about AI for a second, right?

985
00:45:37,636 --> 00:45:42,406
Is that it is IDE that is built
or being built for collaboration.

986
00:45:42,906 --> 00:45:44,936
That's its main strength, right?

987
00:45:45,026 --> 00:45:49,166
And the more we are adopting
AI agents, what not.

988
00:45:49,666 --> 00:45:55,276
The more I can see how that can be a
competitive advantage of Zed, right?

989
00:45:55,306 --> 00:45:55,396
Mm-hmm.

990
00:45:55,846 --> 00:45:59,896
Because you can argue, hey, how much do
I collaborate with others in my daily

991
00:45:59,896 --> 00:46:01,696
workflow and how much I work alone?

992
00:46:02,196 --> 00:46:07,306
But now that we are moving up to
different degrees to to agents,

993
00:46:07,306 --> 00:46:09,766
I think that collaboration is
happening now all the time.

994
00:46:10,266 --> 00:46:14,156
So if something is designed for
collaboration, that makes perfect

995
00:46:14,156 --> 00:46:17,576
sense, even though it might not be
the type of collaboration, how it was

996
00:46:17,576 --> 00:46:19,526
envisioned from the very start of that.

997
00:46:20,026 --> 00:46:21,016
That's a, that's a good take.

998
00:46:21,016 --> 00:46:21,496
I like it.

999
00:46:21,996 --> 00:46:22,536
Yeah.

1000
00:46:22,876 --> 00:46:23,356
I've actually been

1001
00:46:23,356 --> 00:46:28,756
sad I wasn't in a team to use Zed
because when they first came out and

1002
00:46:28,886 --> 00:46:33,206
that was one of the first features was
like automatic GitHub login, automatic

1003
00:46:33,206 --> 00:46:34,586
collaboration with other people.

1004
00:46:34,886 --> 00:46:37,886
And I was like, I can't get to
really use any of these features

1005
00:46:37,886 --> 00:46:39,596
'cause I'm not like pair programming.

1006
00:46:39,596 --> 00:46:40,741
Or you can

1007
00:46:40,766 --> 00:46:41,856
do that with Bret.

1008
00:46:41,876 --> 00:46:42,776
You can do that with me.

1009
00:46:43,226 --> 00:46:43,376
Okay.

1010
00:46:43,376 --> 00:46:43,916
Just hit me up.

1011
00:46:44,336 --> 00:46:45,026
Okay, normal.

1012
00:46:45,026 --> 00:46:45,986
And I can, we'll, a z session

1013
00:46:45,986 --> 00:46:48,176
sometime, maybe we should,
should go online and see.

1014
00:46:48,476 --> 00:46:51,806
We should see how many people live
can join our Zed hacking session.

1015
00:46:51,806 --> 00:46:52,016
We'll be Z

1016
00:46:52,316 --> 00:46:53,846
friends, we'll be Z friends.

1017
00:46:53,996 --> 00:46:54,536
Sounds good.

1018
00:46:54,566 --> 00:46:55,046
There we go.

1019
00:46:55,376 --> 00:46:56,006
AI

1020
00:46:56,006 --> 00:46:56,786
browsers.

1021
00:46:56,786 --> 00:46:58,786
Ooh, thumbs up, thumbs down.

1022
00:46:58,786 --> 00:47:00,226
And if it's thumbs up, which one.

1023
00:47:00,726 --> 00:47:02,196
Go Viktor down.

1024
00:47:02,506 --> 00:47:08,176
he's thumbs downing all AI browsers, which
I'm also thumbs downing all AI browsers.

1025
00:47:08,206 --> 00:47:08,416
Wait,

1026
00:47:08,446 --> 00:47:10,636
so Bret, okay, I've got to call you out.

1027
00:47:11,186 --> 00:47:17,011
This has been a running meme in our
show with you for years now, where we

1028
00:47:17,011 --> 00:47:22,781
almost had not a single show where you
did not mention ARC browser, right?

1029
00:47:23,291 --> 00:47:24,521
It was like, I love ARC browser.

1030
00:47:24,956 --> 00:47:30,431
You, you were like an unpaid spokesperson
Super Bowl ad for the ARC browser.

1031
00:47:30,931 --> 00:47:31,771
What happened?

1032
00:47:32,271 --> 00:47:32,721
What's going on?

1033
00:47:32,721 --> 00:47:34,041
It is not an AI browser.

1034
00:47:34,541 --> 00:47:35,951
It has AI features,

1035
00:47:36,451 --> 00:47:37,051
right?

1036
00:47:37,111 --> 00:47:38,461
So, okay, so what does that mean?

1037
00:47:38,461 --> 00:47:41,571
Like, I'm not a, I'm still
running Firefox and, and Chrome.

1038
00:47:41,571 --> 00:47:42,291
So yeah.

1039
00:47:42,571 --> 00:47:43,471
what is the difference?

1040
00:47:43,471 --> 00:47:44,371
What, what is an ai?

1041
00:47:44,371 --> 00:47:44,671
Because you're.

1042
00:47:45,171 --> 00:47:47,181
You're like our, you're
like our, our baseline.

1043
00:47:47,181 --> 00:47:52,031
You're like the normal
dev pre 2023 or 2022.

1044
00:47:52,531 --> 00:47:54,481
and, and Viktor chime in here real quick.

1045
00:47:54,481 --> 00:47:57,511
the difference between ARC and an AI
browser, which is why they changed

1046
00:47:57,511 --> 00:48:01,471
and made a new browser that was not
arc, is ARC has AI functionality that

1047
00:48:01,471 --> 00:48:05,521
I love, like it'll rename downloads
to a more, it'll look at the file

1048
00:48:05,521 --> 00:48:10,231
contents and then rename the file name
to something that's not tax rebate.

1049
00:48:10,261 --> 00:48:15,631
Document PDF 0 0 1 2 2 1 1 under
underscore five, like it'll rename it

1050
00:48:15,631 --> 00:48:17,851
to Bret's tax return, whatever, right?

1051
00:48:18,241 --> 00:48:22,231
it has other little AI features like it
will auto name, it'll rename the tab.

1052
00:48:22,731 --> 00:48:25,281
To what it thinks that page
is about versus what they will

1053
00:48:25,401 --> 00:48:27,021
call that tab from the website.

1054
00:48:27,021 --> 00:48:27,231
Right.

1055
00:48:27,231 --> 00:48:28,191
It'll do all that sort of stuff.

1056
00:48:28,491 --> 00:48:30,921
It'll automatically combine
different tabs into folders if

1057
00:48:30,921 --> 00:48:32,001
you want to organize things.

1058
00:48:32,001 --> 00:48:37,131
So it'll, it'll sub, it'll create groups
and groupings based on the contents, but

1059
00:48:37,131 --> 00:48:39,801
I can't talk to an AI about a website.

1060
00:48:40,301 --> 00:48:40,631
Got it.

1061
00:48:40,631 --> 00:48:41,831
So it's like a browser.

1062
00:48:42,131 --> 00:48:44,291
Oh, so, so those, that's
not an AI browser.

1063
00:48:44,591 --> 00:48:48,041
What you're talking about is
using AI features to make a

1064
00:48:48,041 --> 00:48:50,231
normal browser more useful.

1065
00:48:50,731 --> 00:48:51,031
Right.

1066
00:48:51,061 --> 00:48:52,921
Essentially that's what they started with.

1067
00:48:53,221 --> 00:48:53,461
Yeah.

1068
00:48:53,731 --> 00:48:54,211
Okay.

1069
00:48:54,601 --> 00:48:54,751
Go

1070
00:48:54,751 --> 00:48:55,001
Viktor.

1071
00:48:55,081 --> 00:48:59,761
No, I, I don't know what would be a
definition, but I see a browsers as being,

1072
00:49:00,181 --> 00:49:06,141
you know, it's a similar like MCP where
AI can use tools so you give it Right.

1073
00:49:06,471 --> 00:49:06,591
Okay.

1074
00:49:06,591 --> 00:49:10,881
Similar kind of basically AI can use
your browser to do things for you.

1075
00:49:11,296 --> 00:49:11,956
does doesn't

1076
00:49:11,956 --> 00:49:12,436
work,

1077
00:49:12,766 --> 00:49:13,126
right?

1078
00:49:13,176 --> 00:49:14,496
ai browser definition.

1079
00:49:14,826 --> 00:49:21,916
It has control of the URL bar from
an AI prompt and likely can see the

1080
00:49:21,916 --> 00:49:25,866
complete and it can see the complete
dom and it can control the window.

1081
00:49:26,256 --> 00:49:30,096
So we can create new tabs, it can
delete tabs, it can read the page, it

1082
00:49:30,096 --> 00:49:33,486
can summarize the page, it can change,
it can decide what websites you go to.

1083
00:49:33,486 --> 00:49:35,016
It can open up five pages at once.

1084
00:49:35,436 --> 00:49:37,676
That's an AI browser in my definition.

1085
00:49:37,676 --> 00:49:37,836
Got it.

1086
00:49:38,011 --> 00:49:43,371
So for example, if I'm building an app in
Kiro and I want to, it's like a web app

1087
00:49:43,431 --> 00:49:47,711
and I use like a playwright MCP server

1088
00:49:47,741 --> 00:49:47,831
mm-hmm.

1089
00:49:48,281 --> 00:49:54,161
That will like open up a headless browser
or whatever it is and click buttons and

1090
00:49:54,461 --> 00:50:00,061
you know, test that website as q and
a is that playwright MCP a AI browser?

1091
00:50:00,561 --> 00:50:04,206
It feels like that, I mean, it's
probably not okay, but feels like that?

1092
00:50:04,206 --> 00:50:04,656
Yes.

1093
00:50:04,686 --> 00:50:04,986
Yes.

1094
00:50:05,016 --> 00:50:05,046
Okay.

1095
00:50:05,046 --> 00:50:07,776
Basically, AI can do
stuff using a browser.

1096
00:50:07,866 --> 00:50:11,766
So is it a browser with just a
really good API that is attached

1097
00:50:11,766 --> 00:50:13,626
to an agent that knows that API?

1098
00:50:14,126 --> 00:50:17,796
Well, you have you have an AI dropdown
for Gemini in your, Chrome browser.

1099
00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:18,606
Do you not use that

1100
00:50:18,636 --> 00:50:19,056
normal?

1101
00:50:19,556 --> 00:50:21,751
I, I don't, mostly because

1102
00:50:21,931 --> 00:50:22,711
security, I, I

1103
00:50:22,711 --> 00:50:23,811
mean, sure.

1104
00:50:24,411 --> 00:50:24,681
Yeah.

1105
00:50:25,181 --> 00:50:29,511
Well, I feel that there are
two major use cases over there.

1106
00:50:29,541 --> 00:50:33,981
One is that, use AI to make
sense of the, of some information

1107
00:50:33,981 --> 00:50:35,331
that is available online.

1108
00:50:35,331 --> 00:50:37,491
You know, that's the example
that you brought from mentioning,

1109
00:50:37,671 --> 00:50:40,911
oh, I have seven tabs open and I
want sum this, stuff like that.

1110
00:50:40,941 --> 00:50:41,211
Right.

1111
00:50:41,421 --> 00:50:44,691
And the other one is to do things for
you, like, Hey, I want to book a flight.

1112
00:50:44,901 --> 00:50:49,169
Ah, the first one, I feel I don't
need a special browser for that.

1113
00:50:49,229 --> 00:50:52,949
That's what, you know, ChatGPT,
Gemini and all this stuff.

1114
00:50:52,949 --> 00:50:53,099
Yeah.

1115
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:57,909
I get a place where I type something
and I get the answer kind of like,

1116
00:50:57,979 --> 00:51:03,019
I'm not sure why I need a browser
for that instead as opposed to a tab.

1117
00:51:03,519 --> 00:51:03,849
Right.

1118
00:51:04,299 --> 00:51:08,429
does the same thing now, if somebody
would ever convince me that AI can

1119
00:51:08,429 --> 00:51:13,019
book a flight that matches what I
really need, and that would take less

1120
00:51:13,019 --> 00:51:18,729
time than if I do it myself, I will
adopt AI browsers that same moment.

1121
00:51:19,229 --> 00:51:21,629
but at the same time, like what
you're talking about, like for

1122
00:51:21,629 --> 00:51:26,289
example, booking a flight, that's
just a stop gap between just because

1123
00:51:26,289 --> 00:51:31,359
the flight, the Air Airline website
doesn't have any API at some point.

1124
00:51:31,859 --> 00:51:35,489
You, I mean, you could go into a terminal
and say, Hey, I want to book a flight.

1125
00:51:35,489 --> 00:51:41,159
And if the airline had a good API and an
MCP or an agent, then it doesn't matter.

1126
00:51:41,309 --> 00:51:46,349
Like it's so the, the AI browser in
those use cases, it's just a stopgap

1127
00:51:46,349 --> 00:51:48,779
until there's like better integration.

1128
00:51:48,779 --> 00:51:49,139
Maybe

1129
00:51:49,829 --> 00:51:53,309
now we are talking, now we are
coming to the crux of it, I think

1130
00:51:53,459 --> 00:51:55,049
because you both put thumbs down

1131
00:51:55,049 --> 00:51:56,999
on AI browsers and I don't know why.

1132
00:51:57,119 --> 00:52:00,329
Well, yeah, let's, yeah, let's,
let's clar, let's clarify our why.

1133
00:52:00,479 --> 00:52:02,699
My why Security nightmare.

1134
00:52:02,699 --> 00:52:04,229
Everyone keeps jail breaking them.

1135
00:52:04,319 --> 00:52:08,609
They will eventually, we will
have announcements of major.

1136
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:13,309
Problems We've already seen that
they're incorrectly buying things.

1137
00:52:13,309 --> 00:52:15,019
They're not buying the correct things.

1138
00:52:15,019 --> 00:52:17,949
They're, when they shop for
you, they're screwing up.

1139
00:52:18,449 --> 00:52:18,839
They, right.

1140
00:52:19,139 --> 00:52:23,579
They're the fact that an AI can see
everything I'm doing online, including

1141
00:52:23,579 --> 00:52:26,719
every password I'm putting in, and
like, it is a security nightmare

1142
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:27,589
and there's no way around it.

1143
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:28,699
And I don't know how
we're going to solve that.

1144
00:52:28,969 --> 00:52:32,509
So until people just pretend that
it's all fine and ignore security,

1145
00:52:32,509 --> 00:52:34,999
which is what maybe people that
are using today are doing, like

1146
00:52:34,999 --> 00:52:38,519
the DIA browser, which is the Arc's
replacement from the browser company.

1147
00:52:38,729 --> 00:52:41,279
I mean, these things, there's
no way to keep them safe.

1148
00:52:41,279 --> 00:52:44,039
I don't know how we would ever do it
in our current con and at least in

1149
00:52:44,039 --> 00:52:47,129
the current world of AI and MCP and
everything else that we're living.

1150
00:52:47,129 --> 00:52:47,369
So

1151
00:52:47,789 --> 00:52:52,139
it sounds like to me, like if I, if I
was a scam artist or someone designing

1152
00:52:52,139 --> 00:52:54,379
phishing, th this is like a Yeah.

1153
00:52:54,384 --> 00:52:54,624
Dream.

1154
00:52:54,624 --> 00:52:55,939
You can jailbreak, this
is a dream come true.

1155
00:52:56,149 --> 00:52:56,299
Yeah.

1156
00:52:56,299 --> 00:52:57,499
You can jailbreak them and

1157
00:52:57,499 --> 00:52:58,129
people keep doing it.

1158
00:52:58,129 --> 00:52:58,519
Yeah.

1159
00:52:58,759 --> 00:53:01,489
I would get someone to
download these browsers.

1160
00:53:01,729 --> 00:53:03,919
And then you're off to the
races essentially, right?

1161
00:53:03,949 --> 00:53:04,339
Oh yeah.

1162
00:53:04,839 --> 00:53:05,129
Yeah.

1163
00:53:05,629 --> 00:53:05,809
Yeah.

1164
00:53:05,809 --> 00:53:08,349
Actually, I, I, I don't
even understand what they're

1165
00:53:08,409 --> 00:53:09,609
trying to solve, to be honest.

1166
00:53:09,609 --> 00:53:10,509
And why browser?

1167
00:53:10,659 --> 00:53:14,019
Why not APIs that al you just
mentioned kind of, basically, right.

1168
00:53:14,019 --> 00:53:18,759
If you want, let's say that I want
you to find me five top options for a

1169
00:53:18,759 --> 00:53:21,069
flight to Whenev wherever, whenever.

1170
00:53:21,189 --> 00:53:21,399
Right?

1171
00:53:21,399 --> 00:53:21,639
Right.

1172
00:53:22,139 --> 00:53:27,749
why would browser AI browsers do it for me
if no GT is perfectly capable of doing it?

1173
00:53:27,839 --> 00:53:28,169
Yeah.

1174
00:53:28,169 --> 00:53:32,114
I want, I want the unless API
to find, unless I wanted to.

1175
00:53:32,614 --> 00:53:32,884
Yeah.

1176
00:53:32,884 --> 00:53:34,714
Unless I wanted to book it for, for me.

1177
00:53:35,214 --> 00:53:35,514
Right.

1178
00:53:35,514 --> 00:53:38,064
Kind of like, Hey, here's my
password and user and here's

1179
00:53:38,064 --> 00:53:40,194
my credit card, do it for me.

1180
00:53:40,404 --> 00:53:44,244
And I, I already have enough trouble
trusting, those that are, should

1181
00:53:44,244 --> 00:53:45,894
be trusted, like Amazon with that.

1182
00:53:45,894 --> 00:53:51,674
Right Now, I'm not trusting with my
credit card number, some malware.

1183
00:53:51,674 --> 00:53:51,764
Right.

1184
00:53:51,769 --> 00:53:53,294
So, and that, that's not the scammer.

1185
00:53:53,444 --> 00:53:53,714
Right.

1186
00:53:53,714 --> 00:53:55,154
And that's not like the main.

1187
00:53:55,559 --> 00:53:59,819
Friction point, like purchasing,
click this, like purchasing the

1188
00:53:59,819 --> 00:54:04,309
ticket isn't the major part of
finding an, finding a flight.

1189
00:54:04,809 --> 00:54:04,989
Yeah.

1190
00:54:04,989 --> 00:54:06,609
It's the finding the flight.

1191
00:54:07,689 --> 00:54:08,709
That's the major part.

1192
00:54:08,709 --> 00:54:12,219
It's not like the credit card
information and your, you know, like

1193
00:54:12,219 --> 00:54:14,469
your passport IDE and your profile.

1194
00:54:14,469 --> 00:54:15,609
that's a solved problem.

1195
00:54:15,609 --> 00:54:15,669
Yeah.

1196
00:54:15,729 --> 00:54:16,119
Right.

1197
00:54:16,419 --> 00:54:16,839
Exactly.

1198
00:54:17,319 --> 00:54:23,909
And so to me, I would love, like, you
know, a, a direct MCP feed into the Sabre

1199
00:54:23,939 --> 00:54:29,569
API and like Google Flights and Flight
Aware and you know, kayak or whatever

1200
00:54:29,569 --> 00:54:35,109
those tools are, and they should just
return JSON with all the prices and

1201
00:54:35,289 --> 00:54:37,449
schedule information and call it a day.

1202
00:54:37,479 --> 00:54:37,809
Right.

1203
00:54:37,809 --> 00:54:38,199
Like,

1204
00:54:38,979 --> 00:54:41,059
but the key here I think is that.

1205
00:54:41,559 --> 00:54:46,749
the services like Gemini and, open ai,
open AI and whatnot, they're already

1206
00:54:46,779 --> 00:54:48,819
capable of doing that without my browser.

1207
00:54:48,879 --> 00:54:49,869
That's the point, I think.

1208
00:54:49,869 --> 00:54:50,019
Yeah.

1209
00:54:50,019 --> 00:54:50,199
Right.

1210
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:53,519
Kind of like you're perfectly
capable of finding that flight.

1211
00:54:53,579 --> 00:54:56,069
Why do you navigate my browser to do it?

1212
00:54:56,569 --> 00:54:56,839
Yep.

1213
00:54:57,169 --> 00:55:00,769
I think it's just a way for the
AI companies to lock you in.

1214
00:55:00,919 --> 00:55:05,449
I mean, it's no different than Google
owning Chrome and I, I feel like it's

1215
00:55:05,449 --> 00:55:09,609
just another lock in play and I don't,
I do have hope for the Zen browser.

1216
00:55:09,999 --> 00:55:11,019
I do have hope for the Zen browser.

1217
00:55:11,049 --> 00:55:12,429
It's not an AI browser.

1218
00:55:12,739 --> 00:55:16,369
it's taking all of the ARC features,
putting 'em on top of Firefox.

1219
00:55:16,369 --> 00:55:20,469
I really wish it wasn't Firefox, but
it's got the Firefox Mozilla engine.

1220
00:55:20,969 --> 00:55:24,119
but it, it feels a lot like arc. There's
someone in chat who's like, yeah.

1221
00:55:24,149 --> 00:55:25,919
but ARC is no longer actively developed.

1222
00:55:26,339 --> 00:55:27,839
ARC is being maintained.

1223
00:55:27,899 --> 00:55:28,739
There's a difference.

1224
00:55:29,099 --> 00:55:31,829
I'm perfectly fine with
ARC's existing functionality.

1225
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:33,029
I don't like a couple of the bugs.

1226
00:55:33,029 --> 00:55:36,059
It has like, especially window
management bug that it has on Mac.

1227
00:55:36,479 --> 00:55:39,829
But everything else in it has
performed great for me for years now.

1228
00:55:39,979 --> 00:55:43,459
So I don't need new features
or features expanded.

1229
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:45,649
I just need it to stay stable and secure.

1230
00:55:45,649 --> 00:55:49,009
And they've been doing that with regular
weekly chromium updates all year long.

1231
00:55:49,009 --> 00:55:52,919
So kudos to them for shelving a
product, but keeping it safe for the

1232
00:55:52,919 --> 00:55:54,449
existing users that still use it.

1233
00:55:54,449 --> 00:55:57,809
I bet you they still got a half a
million daily users on the, on the

1234
00:55:57,809 --> 00:56:00,819
browser that they've shelved, they've
probably got more daily users on it

1235
00:56:00,819 --> 00:56:02,409
than they do on the, on the DIA browser.

1236
00:56:02,409 --> 00:56:06,029
My, I'm guessing, but until
we have like something Arc

1237
00:56:06,029 --> 00:56:07,619
replacement, which is probably then.

1238
00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:11,059
Zen still got some little limitations
in corks that I'm not quite ready

1239
00:56:11,059 --> 00:56:12,769
to leave a completely for it yet.

1240
00:56:12,769 --> 00:56:15,499
I don't know about Viktor if you're
trying something else besides Arc or

1241
00:56:15,999 --> 00:56:18,699
if you're No, I'm back, back to Chrome

1242
00:56:18,699 --> 00:56:22,789
just because I have no patience now to,
to, know, I fair, I'd like to go back

1243
00:56:22,789 --> 00:56:26,839
to your previous question, kind of what
they're doing that, the many vendors

1244
00:56:26,929 --> 00:56:30,519
have a real problem and that's, that
they don't control the platform, right?

1245
00:56:30,879 --> 00:56:35,499
You cannot really do real
business, because Apple controls

1246
00:56:35,499 --> 00:56:36,729
your mobile phones, right?

1247
00:56:37,229 --> 00:56:39,089
they say what you can and cannot do.

1248
00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:42,019
Google controls your
browsing experience Chrome.

1249
00:56:42,229 --> 00:56:42,469
Right?

1250
00:56:42,469 --> 00:56:46,339
if you don't control those things, you
cannot really go as far as you want.

1251
00:56:46,669 --> 00:56:49,489
And I'm a hundred percent sure
convinced that that's why.

1252
00:56:49,849 --> 00:56:54,199
they're releasing those browsers
because if you are convinced to switch

1253
00:56:54,199 --> 00:56:57,919
from the platform, core platform
that you are already using to theirs,

1254
00:56:58,309 --> 00:57:02,659
then they can do the stuff they would
normally, wouldn't be able to do.

1255
00:57:02,689 --> 00:57:02,929
Right.

1256
00:57:02,989 --> 00:57:03,469
That's the game.

1257
00:57:03,469 --> 00:57:06,259
Not because you benefit, I
cannot imagine the reason.

1258
00:57:06,289 --> 00:57:09,159
Why would you use open AI
browser, whatever it's called.

1259
00:57:09,159 --> 00:57:10,269
Is it come or something?

1260
00:57:10,299 --> 00:57:10,509
I don't know.

1261
00:57:11,019 --> 00:57:14,969
It makes no sense except when you look at
it from that perspective, that kind of, if

1262
00:57:14,969 --> 00:57:18,689
we manage to convince you to switch to our
platform, then we are talking business.

1263
00:57:19,189 --> 00:57:20,299
That that's the whole game.

1264
00:57:20,799 --> 00:57:21,129
Yeah.

1265
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:23,139
That's my conspiracy theory.

1266
00:57:23,554 --> 00:57:23,974
Theory,

1267
00:57:24,849 --> 00:57:25,299
yeah.

1268
00:57:25,299 --> 00:57:26,334
I don't think it's a conspiracy.

1269
00:57:26,334 --> 00:57:30,054
I mean that's just, that's like a
classic vertical integration play, right?

1270
00:57:30,054 --> 00:57:30,354
Like,

1271
00:57:30,854 --> 00:57:34,214
I think that Arc will go down
as like one of the major.

1272
00:57:34,714 --> 00:57:39,634
sad stories of tech, of a fantastic
product with an upward trajectory and a

1273
00:57:39,634 --> 00:57:41,794
clear potential market for people to pay.

1274
00:57:41,794 --> 00:57:43,594
I wish they would've, they
made the same mistake.

1275
00:57:43,594 --> 00:57:44,044
Docker did.

1276
00:57:44,044 --> 00:57:45,394
They didn't charge early enough.

1277
00:57:45,544 --> 00:57:46,804
No, they still don't charge.

1278
00:57:47,074 --> 00:57:47,794
There was no opport.

1279
00:57:47,824 --> 00:57:50,974
I would've paid them money for
years, five, 10 bucks a month

1280
00:57:51,394 --> 00:57:53,014
for access to those AI features.

1281
00:57:53,014 --> 00:57:55,494
Like, but you and five others?

1282
00:57:56,304 --> 00:57:58,794
Well, maybe, but they could
have expanded that market.

1283
00:57:58,794 --> 00:57:58,804
Okay.

1284
00:57:58,804 --> 00:57:59,604
10. 10. Okay.

1285
00:57:59,604 --> 00:58:00,594
Don't fight me on that.

1286
00:58:00,654 --> 00:58:01,404
Let it be 10.

1287
00:58:01,719 --> 00:58:02,169
Yeah.

1288
00:58:02,499 --> 00:58:05,669
But, they, and they could have explored
additional third party, you know, like

1289
00:58:05,669 --> 00:58:08,159
additional functionality that, and,
you know, they probably could have

1290
00:58:08,159 --> 00:58:10,409
done like everyone else and said, here,
we'll give you access to the models

1291
00:58:10,409 --> 00:58:13,439
for our, you know, we'll be the gateway
and we'll take a cut off the top like

1292
00:58:13,439 --> 00:58:14,529
everyone else is doing with the IDEs.

1293
00:58:14,729 --> 00:58:19,109
But the, the crazy part to me, Arc
died because of Silicon Valley.

1294
00:58:19,359 --> 00:58:20,859
it died because of VCs.

1295
00:58:21,249 --> 00:58:27,099
VCs need their money back and there
wasn't a clear path to a $500 million

1296
00:58:27,099 --> 00:58:28,569
annual run rate kind of thing.

1297
00:58:28,869 --> 00:58:32,499
So they couldn't figure out how to
monetize it in a way that they could've

1298
00:58:32,499 --> 00:58:33,399
figured out how to monetize it.

1299
00:58:33,399 --> 00:58:36,849
If they had a 10 or less people team
and they just needed to make 10 million

1300
00:58:36,849 --> 00:58:40,089
a year or something, but they couldn't
figure out how to monetize it at scale,

1301
00:58:40,299 --> 00:58:42,279
which is the problem with VC money.

1302
00:58:42,779 --> 00:58:45,879
So now they've got to make another
terrible browser that's, that's not

1303
00:58:45,879 --> 00:58:47,549
going to make them that 5 billion either.

1304
00:58:48,049 --> 00:58:50,869
Without VC money, they couldn't
have made those movies that

1305
00:58:50,869 --> 00:58:52,579
cost like Hollywood production.

1306
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:56,469
Yeah, well, they might be right, by
the way, they might get bought by

1307
00:58:56,469 --> 00:59:00,879
another company for a billion dollars,
just like, well, they already did.

1308
00:59:00,939 --> 00:59:01,449
They got bought.

1309
00:59:01,449 --> 00:59:02,769
So they want, that's their thing.

1310
00:59:02,769 --> 00:59:04,119
Like they got bought, I keep forgetting.

1311
00:59:04,119 --> 00:59:05,639
They got bought, by Atlas, Atlassian.

1312
00:59:06,059 --> 00:59:07,469
So they made their money.

1313
00:59:07,469 --> 00:59:09,179
The VCs got paid back, presumably.

1314
00:59:09,509 --> 00:59:13,769
And so to me, like I kind of wish that
maybe because they've already been

1315
00:59:13,769 --> 00:59:17,889
bought, maybe the DIA features will
just be added to Arc. I don't know.

1316
00:59:17,889 --> 00:59:20,679
Or maybe they'll add the ARC features
to DIA and I can turn off the AI.

1317
00:59:21,039 --> 00:59:26,589
I'm not really sure, but at some point
the AI browsers are like, it's a question

1318
00:59:26,589 --> 00:59:31,919
of how much will Chrome have to compete
with the AI browsers and are we going

1319
00:59:31,919 --> 00:59:33,199
to get a worse chrome in the future?

1320
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:34,489
Like, are we going to get a Chrome.

1321
00:59:34,989 --> 00:59:38,979
That we all learn to hate because
it's AI first and we don't want it,

1322
00:59:39,059 --> 00:59:40,539
and we just want to turn off the AI.

1323
00:59:41,049 --> 00:59:44,709
I've already got friends that work in
the AI space that are like websites.

1324
00:59:44,709 --> 00:59:48,509
Could be, remember how SEO hackers
used to put little tiny texts in a, in

1325
00:59:48,989 --> 00:59:54,539
a font at the bottom of the page that
would seed the search engines with

1326
00:59:54,539 --> 00:59:56,609
information to help them their rankings.

1327
00:59:56,609 --> 00:59:59,219
And they would put it in small fonts
with the same color as the background

1328
00:59:59,219 --> 01:00:00,239
so that the human couldn't see it.

1329
01:00:00,239 --> 01:00:03,269
But the, well, the same thing is going
to be happening with ai, where we're

1330
01:00:03,269 --> 01:00:06,209
going to end up with jail breaking
texts at the bottom of your website.

1331
01:00:06,209 --> 01:00:09,289
That would, that if I land
on your website, now you're

1332
01:00:09,289 --> 01:00:10,219
controlling my browser.

1333
01:00:10,609 --> 01:00:15,549
And, I, right now there's seems to be
no one that's able to avoid that attack.

1334
01:00:15,799 --> 01:00:16,999
which is a pretty basic attack.

1335
01:00:16,999 --> 01:00:21,469
Same with like, you know, MCP pony and,
and a lot of these things that we're,

1336
01:00:21,569 --> 01:00:24,419
We're seeing is it's not, anyway, we
could talk about browsers forever.

1337
01:00:24,669 --> 01:00:26,139
last, last call.

1338
01:00:26,259 --> 01:00:32,679
Wild card, like what other AI tool
did you try and throw away this year?

1339
01:00:32,679 --> 01:00:34,419
Or you tried and you adopted?

1340
01:00:34,419 --> 01:00:36,759
It could be a SaaS, it could be like,

1341
01:00:36,759 --> 01:00:40,509
I use a notion AI more
than I did a year ago.

1342
01:00:40,509 --> 01:00:42,489
they keep iterating and
making it better, better.

1343
01:00:42,489 --> 01:00:46,979
So now my notion AI can, search
all of my stuff in a very.

1344
01:00:47,479 --> 01:00:48,409
Nervous.

1345
01:00:48,409 --> 01:00:52,789
I like it has access to my email and
my documents and my go, my GitHub

1346
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:56,689
and it has access to everything
and it is a little concerning.

1347
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:59,599
I just hope their security
team's great because it has

1348
01:00:59,659 --> 01:01:01,459
a lot of access to my stuff.

1349
01:01:01,459 --> 01:01:04,459
The only thing it doesn't have access to
is my passwords and my browser history.

1350
01:01:04,699 --> 01:01:07,249
That's about the only thing
it doesn't have at this point.

1351
01:01:07,249 --> 01:01:08,659
But the AI is great.

1352
01:01:08,959 --> 01:01:14,189
It can do crazy things like,
Hey, can you tell me where in

1353
01:01:14,189 --> 01:01:17,019
2025 did I interact with Nirmal?

1354
01:01:17,429 --> 01:01:21,569
And it will find all the pages and,
and it'll summarize conversations.

1355
01:01:21,569 --> 01:01:23,459
It'll say You were on
this many shows with him.

1356
01:01:23,669 --> 01:01:26,429
You had these, this, these different
email conversations with him.

1357
01:01:26,609 --> 01:01:28,859
You have these documents
that you shared with Nirmal.

1358
01:01:29,069 --> 01:01:32,549
Like it, it does all
that in five seconds and.

1359
01:01:32,969 --> 01:01:37,109
That for me when I can't find
where, where did I put that thing?

1360
01:01:37,109 --> 01:01:37,919
Is it a Google Doc?

1361
01:01:37,919 --> 01:01:41,339
Is it a notion page like that has
fundamentally, for me this year

1362
01:01:41,579 --> 01:01:44,849
changed the behavior of the way I
work, and it's a hotkey now in Mac.

1363
01:01:44,849 --> 01:01:48,639
So I can just hit Command K and
search everything in Notion, or ask

1364
01:01:48,639 --> 01:01:52,059
the AI questions about my notion and
my Google Docs and all of it all at

1365
01:01:52,059 --> 01:01:54,209
once, and I, I do have to pay for it.

1366
01:01:54,209 --> 01:01:57,719
It turns out that when Notion
announced, they were doing a, a stock

1367
01:01:57,719 --> 01:02:00,859
thing with their employees on Monday,
they announced this, they kind of

1368
01:02:00,859 --> 01:02:06,574
gave away the fact that 50% of their
revenue is now AI, the cost of the,

1369
01:02:06,624 --> 01:02:08,484
AI plans on top of the regular plans.

1370
01:02:08,484 --> 01:02:13,314
So they have successfully monetized
AI so that now basically a majority

1371
01:02:13,314 --> 01:02:14,874
of their customers are now paying.

1372
01:02:15,374 --> 01:02:19,004
Double what they used to pay in order
to have access to the AI on top of

1373
01:02:19,004 --> 01:02:23,324
the Notion features, which I think is
a, a huge win for a, a non-AI company

1374
01:02:23,324 --> 01:02:28,454
to add AI functionality as a feature
center and to be able to actually

1375
01:02:28,454 --> 01:02:29,654
show a lot of profit from that.

1376
01:02:29,654 --> 01:02:31,064
I think it's a pretty cool thing for them.

1377
01:02:31,064 --> 01:02:32,354
So that's my pick.

1378
01:02:32,504 --> 01:02:34,124
I'll throw it in Wild cards.

1379
01:02:34,334 --> 01:02:35,324
Anyone else got one?

1380
01:02:35,824 --> 01:02:37,054
It can be Dev, it could be nine devs.

1381
01:02:37,054 --> 01:02:37,264
You want to

1382
01:02:37,264 --> 01:02:37,894
go first?

1383
01:02:37,984 --> 01:02:38,254
No.

1384
01:02:38,254 --> 01:02:38,794
Go for it.

1385
01:02:39,034 --> 01:02:39,764
Go for it, Viktor.

1386
01:02:39,784 --> 01:02:40,054
Okay,

1387
01:02:40,414 --> 01:02:44,074
so, you said yeah, what you picked,
and what you abandoned, right?

1388
01:02:44,614 --> 01:02:44,734
Yeah.

1389
01:02:44,734 --> 01:02:46,804
I mean, I, I already answered
what the abandoned there is.

1390
01:02:47,044 --> 01:02:48,004
Id none.

1391
01:02:48,504 --> 01:02:49,914
I, I was a VS.

1392
01:02:49,914 --> 01:02:51,954
Code cursor user all, all the way.

1393
01:02:51,954 --> 01:02:53,634
And that's what I abandoned, right?

1394
01:02:54,134 --> 01:02:56,789
now the pick Code Rabbit MCP.

1395
01:02:57,289 --> 01:02:57,579
Okay.

1396
01:02:57,584 --> 01:02:59,594
That's absolutely amazing, right?

1397
01:02:59,834 --> 01:03:04,014
'cause I love the idea of,
you know, I create a PR.

1398
01:03:04,514 --> 01:03:09,684
I get review as, in parallel or
without the human review, right?

1399
01:03:09,684 --> 01:03:13,604
I get review and Code Rabbit reviews
are absolutely amazing, right?

1400
01:03:14,144 --> 01:03:19,424
Not going to try to compare them now,
but the reason why I say MCP is because

1401
01:03:19,424 --> 01:03:21,344
I don't have to leave Claude Code.

1402
01:03:21,844 --> 01:03:26,304
I don't have to go to GitHub
PR to see what it did and then

1403
01:03:26,304 --> 01:03:29,784
copy and paste it back to Claude
Code to say, can you fix this?

1404
01:03:29,934 --> 01:03:30,894
And so on and so forth.

1405
01:03:31,134 --> 01:03:33,614
I just say, create a PR go.

1406
01:03:33,614 --> 01:03:36,914
I go and fetch coffee or something
like that, few minutes later.

1407
01:03:37,184 --> 01:03:37,364
Okay.

1408
01:03:38,279 --> 01:03:39,269
What are the issues?

1409
01:03:39,309 --> 01:03:43,779
tell me what are the issues and let's
sso, let's pick which ones to resolve.

1410
01:03:43,779 --> 01:03:47,829
And I continue my workflow right in, in
my agent, whichever I'm using, right?

1411
01:03:48,329 --> 01:03:52,099
so, it's absolutely amazing that
it's happening outside of Claude

1412
01:03:52,119 --> 01:03:56,109
Code, but still works in IT
or cursor whatever key, right?

1413
01:03:56,139 --> 01:03:57,009
Whatever you're using.

1414
01:03:57,459 --> 01:04:01,239
So Code Rabbit MCP specifically,
absolutely amazing.

1415
01:04:01,739 --> 01:04:02,309
All right.

1416
01:04:02,609 --> 01:04:06,509
I haven't tried it yet, and I've been
mostly focused on building some GitHub

1417
01:04:06,509 --> 01:04:09,929
courses this year, and I've been mo mostly
focused on the GitHub functionality.

1418
01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:14,099
And I, I've been very curious to,
to see some of these sort of, GitHub

1419
01:04:14,129 --> 01:04:18,309
workflow automation tools outside
of GitHub and see how superior

1420
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:20,769
they are to the native offerings.

1421
01:04:20,769 --> 01:04:23,079
So Code Rabbit just jumped
to the top of my list.

1422
01:04:23,579 --> 01:04:24,659
I envy you, man.

1423
01:04:25,159 --> 01:04:28,979
I really envy you because you're so
used to, to copilot that now you're

1424
01:04:28,979 --> 01:04:34,189
going to enjoy so much, all the other
things, and your body is so low now.

1425
01:04:35,869 --> 01:04:37,279
Maybe that's the secret to life.

1426
01:04:38,509 --> 01:04:39,289
Yeah, exactly.

1427
01:04:39,289 --> 01:04:41,869
Expectations, low expectations.

1428
01:04:41,869 --> 01:04:42,439
Exactly.

1429
01:04:43,009 --> 01:04:43,669
Exactly.

1430
01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:44,959
Low expectations.

1431
01:04:44,959 --> 01:04:45,259
There we go.

1432
01:04:45,709 --> 01:04:46,279
That's funny.

1433
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:47,299
Yeah.

1434
01:04:47,304 --> 01:04:49,669
You, you, you've been working
your whole life in mainframe.

1435
01:04:49,669 --> 01:04:51,529
Let me introduce you to cloud, right,

1436
01:04:51,659 --> 01:04:55,959
Bret, you got to open up Copilot and
say, how can I raise my expectations

1437
01:05:00,789 --> 01:05:01,419
on AI tools?

1438
01:05:01,419 --> 01:05:01,659
What,

1439
01:05:02,019 --> 01:05:05,249
what tools are better
than you, Mr. Copilot?

1440
01:05:05,889 --> 01:05:07,359
that would actually be a great test.

1441
01:05:07,359 --> 01:05:10,089
I'm going to ask, KIRO, CLI like what?

1442
01:05:10,499 --> 01:05:13,464
IDE what AI IDs it would

1443
01:05:13,464 --> 01:05:14,064
recommend.

1444
01:05:14,064 --> 01:05:14,074
Right.

1445
01:05:14,074 --> 01:05:14,094
What do

1446
01:05:14,094 --> 01:05:14,389
you recommend, right?

1447
01:05:14,494 --> 01:05:15,604
are these biased?

1448
01:05:15,634 --> 01:05:16,564
I don't think that it is.

1449
01:05:16,564 --> 01:05:20,994
I think it's just going right to sonnet
or whatever, you know, whatever model

1450
01:05:20,994 --> 01:05:22,329
it's connected to, but it's still,

1451
01:05:22,329 --> 01:05:25,764
it's still trained on user,
you know, on public data.

1452
01:05:25,764 --> 01:05:28,374
So it has all the Reddit
posts and all those things.

1453
01:05:28,854 --> 01:05:32,864
I'm not sure how much it, even the
authors of models can avoid that.

1454
01:05:33,344 --> 01:05:33,734
Yeah.

1455
01:05:33,734 --> 01:05:37,554
So I'm bringing that up because, this
is like a burgeoning field, right?

1456
01:05:37,554 --> 01:05:40,874
Which is the AI optimization, right?

1457
01:05:40,874 --> 01:05:42,584
We have search engine optimization.

1458
01:05:43,084 --> 01:05:43,984
This is the wild card.

1459
01:05:44,194 --> 01:05:45,784
This is one of the wildcard answers.

1460
01:05:45,994 --> 01:05:46,294
Okay.

1461
01:05:46,794 --> 01:05:48,894
So we have search engine
optimization, right?

1462
01:05:48,894 --> 01:05:50,694
Like how to make your results show up.

1463
01:05:51,194 --> 01:05:55,694
we're already there and we're going
to continue to have to understand how

1464
01:05:55,694 --> 01:05:59,824
to make sure our stuff shows up in.

1465
01:06:00,649 --> 01:06:02,329
M responses in models.

1466
01:06:02,479 --> 01:06:07,879
And so like, you know, we, you know,
how does Bret Fisher's and Nirmal

1467
01:06:07,879 --> 01:06:14,159
Mehta's Agentic DevOps fm podcast,
show up when you ask Claude Code?

1468
01:06:14,429 --> 01:06:17,789
Hey, I'd like to listen to a
podcast that tells me more about

1469
01:06:18,059 --> 01:06:19,889
how to use agents for DevOps.

1470
01:06:20,259 --> 01:06:24,249
and that whole entire field is
very nascent and burgeoning.

1471
01:06:24,559 --> 01:06:27,699
there's no major tools
right now that I know of.

1472
01:06:27,799 --> 01:06:30,349
I haven't done any digging,
major digging into that.

1473
01:06:30,689 --> 01:06:35,309
But, right now it's even hard to
understand what percentage of people

1474
01:06:35,309 --> 01:06:39,229
are discovering your, you know,
your blog post, your podcast, your

1475
01:06:39,229 --> 01:06:46,849
content through ChatGPT, through
Claude, through Perplexity and that

1476
01:06:46,849 --> 01:06:49,729
visibility and tools that will help.

1477
01:06:50,229 --> 01:06:55,859
Bring that visibility to light are going
to be the one part of the future for sure.

1478
01:06:56,359 --> 01:06:57,564
you don't have a particular product there.

1479
01:06:57,624 --> 01:07:01,074
I don't have, I don't have a product
there, but it's a product category

1480
01:07:01,434 --> 01:07:06,714
and it's something to kind of keep an
eye on because it's the other side of

1481
01:07:06,714 --> 01:07:08,184
what we've been talking about, right?

1482
01:07:08,184 --> 01:07:12,894
Like if we're using all these tools
in the terminal, in Claude Code,

1483
01:07:13,284 --> 01:07:18,414
they're being influenced by something
to give you that response, right?

1484
01:07:18,414 --> 01:07:23,284
There's an opinion there and how
they deform opinion that's going

1485
01:07:23,284 --> 01:07:24,944
to be optimized in the future.

1486
01:07:25,074 --> 01:07:29,664
and it's something, so that's what I,
when I asked you about AI browsers,

1487
01:07:29,664 --> 01:07:32,784
I thought that's where this, that
conversation was going to go.

1488
01:07:32,844 --> 01:07:36,294
And I'm kind of surprised that
wasn't part of the response I

1489
01:07:36,294 --> 01:07:37,994
got from y'all because to me.

1490
01:07:38,369 --> 01:07:44,629
The idea behind like an AI browser
would be to then sell the influence,

1491
01:07:45,129 --> 01:07:48,729
on the other side of the market to
that person that's using that browser.

1492
01:07:48,729 --> 01:07:49,059
Right?

1493
01:07:49,059 --> 01:07:50,849
Like, if that makes any sense.

1494
01:07:51,719 --> 01:07:51,869
Yeah.

1495
01:07:51,959 --> 01:07:55,309
So there maybe what you're talking about,
like, so a two friends of mine, have

1496
01:07:55,309 --> 01:07:59,629
a company, a startup called No Atoa,
and they do what you're talking about

1497
01:07:59,629 --> 01:08:01,699
in terms of like helping marketers.

1498
01:08:01,819 --> 01:08:03,259
It's, it's a tool for marketers, right?

1499
01:08:03,259 --> 01:08:08,209
For people that care about SEO and
they help you understand what your

1500
01:08:08,209 --> 01:08:12,619
brand is doing in the different
models and the different chat bots

1501
01:08:12,949 --> 01:08:18,779
and, how that correlates to your
old school Google, SEO search stuff.

1502
01:08:19,139 --> 01:08:21,179
And, they give a pretty great, email.

1503
01:08:21,179 --> 01:08:23,989
It's not quite weekly, but you
can also, you can just get all

1504
01:08:23,989 --> 01:08:25,449
this at Noah to, but, yeah.

1505
01:08:25,509 --> 01:08:28,779
I wonder what ad blocking in the
future is going to look like.

1506
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:34,499
can, would an ad blocker be like,
unbias the response from an LLM future?

1507
01:08:34,919 --> 01:08:35,639
So we have

1508
01:08:35,699 --> 01:08:38,459
ads now showing up in go.

1509
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:42,159
Like they just wrote, had a whole email
about this like last week or something.

1510
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:44,229
Was the, that ad showing up in the chat?

1511
01:08:44,289 --> 01:08:45,129
Chat bots now?

1512
01:08:45,629 --> 01:08:45,719
Mm-hmm.

1513
01:08:45,989 --> 01:08:47,519
That, that's already happening.

1514
01:08:47,519 --> 01:08:50,129
And Google was first as they should be.

1515
01:08:50,579 --> 01:08:51,659
ChatGPT is next.

1516
01:08:51,659 --> 01:08:52,589
They're planning on it.

1517
01:08:52,689 --> 01:08:59,109
and so the problem is, the big problem
here for me is that it's one thing when

1518
01:08:59,109 --> 01:09:01,839
you're just searching the internet,
but people don't treat chatbots

1519
01:09:01,839 --> 01:09:03,339
like they treat the internet search.

1520
01:09:03,609 --> 01:09:06,009
Like people are having therapy
sessions in the chat bot.

1521
01:09:06,009 --> 01:09:10,329
Can you imagine having a therapy talking
about some deeply personal topics

1522
01:09:10,689 --> 01:09:13,149
and then you see an ad for whatever.

1523
01:09:13,649 --> 01:09:17,879
you know, some prescription drug like
in the middle of the chat response

1524
01:09:17,879 --> 01:09:21,299
because that's kind of how it's showing
up is like, Hey, here's my opinion.

1525
01:09:21,299 --> 01:09:27,379
But also did you know about, like that's
super cringey and it may backfire.

1526
01:09:27,379 --> 01:09:31,259
So I'm guessing that that's part of the
reason why maybe we don't see ads yet.

1527
01:09:31,259 --> 01:09:33,679
'cause it seems like it's been
taking a long time for, so

1528
01:09:33,859 --> 01:09:37,759
are we going to have in, you know,
in, in this IDE of the future, is it

1529
01:09:37,759 --> 01:09:40,639
going to, there's, is there going to
be a banner that says, why don't you go

1530
01:09:40,639 --> 01:09:43,009
grab a Red Bull while I fix your code?

1531
01:09:43,319 --> 01:09:43,919
kind of thing?

1532
01:09:44,129 --> 01:09:47,699
Or are there going to be comments in
the code about like, you know, this

1533
01:09:47,699 --> 01:09:52,529
would be a lot easier if you used X, Y,
Z service instead of Java or something.

1534
01:09:52,529 --> 01:09:55,049
You know, like, is that
where we're headed to?

1535
01:09:55,549 --> 01:09:57,979
We are, but that's partly our fault.

1536
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:01,719
And this goes back to the
conversation about Arc browser, right?

1537
01:10:01,989 --> 01:10:04,689
We are so used never to pay for anything.

1538
01:10:05,189 --> 01:10:05,339
Yeah.

1539
01:10:05,369 --> 01:10:05,549
Right.

1540
01:10:05,879 --> 01:10:05,999
Yep.

1541
01:10:06,269 --> 01:10:09,769
People don't want to pay for, for open ai.

1542
01:10:09,859 --> 01:10:12,499
I mean, professionals like
we are, we are paying, right?

1543
01:10:12,499 --> 01:10:15,529
But a normal person is
not, is not paying for it.

1544
01:10:16,029 --> 01:10:18,849
just as normal person would
never pay for a browser, right.

1545
01:10:19,349 --> 01:10:24,139
And if we insist on getting
everything for free, what's the va?

1546
01:10:24,199 --> 01:10:28,249
What's the only VE left for those
companies to finance themselves?

1547
01:10:28,249 --> 01:10:29,599
Well, selling you Red Bull.

1548
01:10:30,099 --> 01:10:30,339
Yeah.

1549
01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:30,669
Yeah.

1550
01:10:31,169 --> 01:10:31,439
Kind of.

1551
01:10:31,709 --> 01:10:35,999
We need somehow to change as
people are customs to kind of,

1552
01:10:36,089 --> 01:10:37,979
Hey, I'm going to pay for this.

1553
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:44,679
Do you remember the day that Gmail showed
up and announced ads next to your emails

1554
01:10:44,679 --> 01:10:48,719
and how everyone was up in arms for the
invasion into privacy of them reading

1555
01:10:48,719 --> 01:10:50,279
our email, which they were already doing.

1556
01:10:50,279 --> 01:10:53,729
They were all already doing it, reading
our email, and then providing ads next

1557
01:10:53,729 --> 01:10:57,809
to them, Th that was 20, 20 years ago.

1558
01:10:58,309 --> 01:10:59,869
And that's completely normal now.

1559
01:10:59,869 --> 01:11:02,779
Like it's totally normalized to
have ads right next to my email

1560
01:11:02,779 --> 01:11:03,919
about what was in that email.

1561
01:11:03,919 --> 01:11:05,329
Nobody makes a mention of it.

1562
01:11:05,329 --> 01:11:05,899
It's fine.

1563
01:11:06,399 --> 01:11:07,779
This is the next wave, right?

1564
01:11:07,779 --> 01:11:08,529
This is the next wave.

1565
01:11:08,529 --> 01:11:12,429
Is it You're having private conversations
about personal topics, healthcare

1566
01:11:12,429 --> 01:11:13,749
topics, interesting, whatever.

1567
01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:17,009
And you're going to have ads and
you're, and people are going to have

1568
01:11:17,009 --> 01:11:18,429
to just start to get, be okay with it.

1569
01:11:18,879 --> 01:11:19,284
And Yeah.

1570
01:11:19,504 --> 01:11:23,959
And well, the rumor right now is
that, ChatGPT, even on the, or Claude

1571
01:11:23,959 --> 01:11:27,499
or whoever it was, that even on the
$200 plans, you're going to see ads,

1572
01:11:27,809 --> 01:11:29,069
like everyone's going to get ads.

1573
01:11:29,249 --> 01:11:31,289
Because one of the arguments, one
of the problems with ads is if you

1574
01:11:31,289 --> 01:11:34,729
can pay for ads to go away, you're
the best customers are the ones

1575
01:11:34,729 --> 01:11:35,719
that are paying from the go away.

1576
01:11:35,719 --> 01:11:39,559
So when you're an ad seller, you
really want the best customer.

1577
01:11:39,639 --> 01:11:42,259
You want to be able to sell those
customers, which is why you could

1578
01:11:42,259 --> 01:11:43,519
never get rid of ads in Facebook.

1579
01:11:43,789 --> 01:11:45,019
'cause you, you know, anyway,

1580
01:11:45,109 --> 01:11:47,839
I, I'm not sure that
Anthropic will do that.

1581
01:11:48,339 --> 01:11:53,059
Maybe to some extent, but not much simply
because the approach that Anthropic takes

1582
01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:57,109
compared to open AI from the business
perspective is very, very, very different.

1583
01:11:57,169 --> 01:11:57,259
Right?

1584
01:11:57,259 --> 01:11:57,529
Sure.

1585
01:11:57,649 --> 01:11:57,829
Yeah.

1586
01:11:57,829 --> 01:11:59,809
Anthropic is an enterprise based company.

1587
01:11:59,809 --> 01:12:01,279
They're selling to enterprises.

1588
01:12:01,279 --> 01:12:03,079
That's the revenue stream, right?

1589
01:12:03,499 --> 01:12:07,579
Open AI is trying to be end
user type of service company.

1590
01:12:07,579 --> 01:12:07,939
Right?

1591
01:12:08,299 --> 01:12:10,729
B2B, like your mom and pop Yeah.

1592
01:12:10,954 --> 01:12:13,249
My, my parents type of users, right.

1593
01:12:13,489 --> 01:12:14,809
Or my daughter or whatever.

1594
01:12:15,209 --> 01:12:19,749
so they will definitely do ads because
their users don't pay Anthropic.

1595
01:12:19,769 --> 01:12:22,079
I mean, I know my company's paying for it.

1596
01:12:22,419 --> 01:12:25,029
many companies are paying for
it, and if they're not paying for

1597
01:12:25,029 --> 01:12:28,889
a Anthropic, they're paying for
Amazon or for, Azure or something.

1598
01:12:28,889 --> 01:12:29,159
Right.

1599
01:12:29,659 --> 01:12:32,119
And I, I don't think
that ads would fly there.

1600
01:12:32,599 --> 01:12:32,869
Yeah.

1601
01:12:33,369 --> 01:12:35,349
So that was my hot take.

1602
01:12:35,399 --> 01:12:39,449
kind of just like something to look
out for is, Is like the wild card.

1603
01:12:39,669 --> 01:12:41,829
if you'll take it, it's not a real tool.

1604
01:12:41,829 --> 01:12:42,129
I'm not sure

1605
01:12:42,129 --> 01:12:42,969
what to write.

1606
01:12:43,329 --> 01:12:47,619
'cause our lists are mostly tool lists,
so I don't know what to add there.

1607
01:12:47,619 --> 01:12:47,859
But,

1608
01:12:48,359 --> 01:12:55,399
ad block, LM Unbias ad blocking
tool of the future can now reduce

1609
01:12:55,399 --> 01:12:56,329
it to two words.

1610
01:12:56,839 --> 01:12:57,289
Yeah.

1611
01:12:57,469 --> 01:12:57,709
oh.

1612
01:12:57,739 --> 01:12:59,329
Like, LM Block.

1613
01:12:59,329 --> 01:12:59,509
A SEO.

1614
01:12:59,749 --> 01:13:00,139
Yeah.

1615
01:13:00,349 --> 01:13:00,784
There we go.

1616
01:13:01,864 --> 01:13:06,199
L lm ad block, anti anti AI
SEO or something like that.

1617
01:13:06,699 --> 01:13:07,359
but yes.

1618
01:13:07,449 --> 01:13:11,224
Well, I've, we we're, I
think we're at the end here.

1619
01:13:11,914 --> 01:13:12,154
Yeah.

1620
01:13:12,289 --> 01:13:14,614
We, we could keep going
on tooling forever.

1621
01:13:14,894 --> 01:13:17,954
but I will leave this here 'cause I
feel like this is a really good list

1622
01:13:18,314 --> 01:13:21,104
and any of these topics could have
become, became their whole hour.

1623
01:13:21,164 --> 01:13:21,554
Yes.

1624
01:13:21,554 --> 01:13:23,884
I. So thank you so much for being here.

1625
01:13:24,124 --> 01:13:25,654
This was our Christmas episode.

1626
01:13:25,654 --> 01:13:27,544
I don't even have Christmas
music like I usually do.

1627
01:13:27,544 --> 01:13:29,584
I usually have the room
set up in Christmas.

1628
01:13:29,644 --> 01:13:32,844
This was a minimal Christmas year,
but, thank you both for being here.

1629
01:13:32,894 --> 01:13:38,334
And you can find Viktor on
YouTube at, at DevOps Toolkit.

1630
01:13:38,814 --> 01:13:42,144
And Nirmal is on LinkedIn.

1631
01:13:42,174 --> 01:13:44,454
And all of this stuff will
be in the description below,

1632
01:13:44,844 --> 01:13:49,434
So, thank you both for both being
here and we will see you again in

1633
01:13:49,434 --> 01:13:50,994
the new year with more live streams.

1634
01:13:51,044 --> 01:13:55,304
And before we leave, I just
wanted to thank all the viewers,

1635
01:13:55,334 --> 01:13:59,754
listeners, supporters that we've
had over this past year, and years.

1636
01:13:59,924 --> 01:14:01,924
Bret and I can't do this without you.

1637
01:14:01,954 --> 01:14:05,524
Please tell your friends, family,
colleagues, Random people that you

1638
01:14:05,524 --> 01:14:09,754
meet on the street, the people that
you see at conferences about both

1639
01:14:09,754 --> 01:14:11,674
of our podcasts, our live stream.

1640
01:14:12,064 --> 01:14:14,734
I thoroughly enjoy the conversations
that we have in the chat.

1641
01:14:14,734 --> 01:14:19,234
It seems awesome to get to, to
see from everyone what y'all

1642
01:14:19,234 --> 01:14:20,704
are doing, your questions.

1643
01:14:21,094 --> 01:14:24,569
And, we want to make sure that we
can continue to do this in 2026.

1644
01:14:24,989 --> 01:14:28,889
So, check out our Agentic DevOps podcast,
the one that we launched this year.

1645
01:14:29,219 --> 01:14:32,939
We'll probably be having way more
conversations about it next year as

1646
01:14:32,939 --> 01:14:36,149
all these tools, maybe this list of
tools will be completely different

1647
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:38,819
in six months, probably, possibly.

1648
01:14:40,464 --> 01:14:40,884
Yes.

1649
01:14:41,064 --> 01:14:44,364
And like, and subscribe
and all those things.

1650
01:14:44,704 --> 01:14:47,824
if you didn't know, I'm making
courses, links below into description.

1651
01:14:48,324 --> 01:14:49,044
See you soon.

1652
01:14:49,374 --> 01:14:49,914
Bye everybody.

1653
01:14:50,414 --> 01:14:50,684
Bye.

1654
01:14:50,804 --> 01:14:51,224
Cheers.