Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Ian: Hello and welcome to this cat chat episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Ian, and I'm so glad that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways that help both faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, you can find it in the [00:01:00] link for the show notes. As we said, today's episode is a Cat Chat episode, so I'm here with Zoe and Krysia and we are, uh, talking about our latest podcast episode about autistic masking. 

Zoe: Yeah, I think the episode was just fantastic.

I learned a lot from it. Um, I actually realized I was reading Amy's book like a few weeks ago from my thesis, so it was really interesting to hear what she had to say and um, yeah, I just. I found it really helpful because I think often we have this kind of perception of like, oh, everyone masks and yeah, okay, that's true.

But I really liked how Amy sets out by saying, well, like everyone engages in self-monitoring and impression management strategies, but not everyone engages in stigma management. And I just think that distinction is so helpful because I think it's very easy to like almost downplay the autistic or neurodivergent experience of masking, but it's that kind of like suppressing who you are [00:02:00] because of traumatic events or significant events like that was just so helpful for me, the way she framed that.

And I think it's, yeah, just a really helpful thing to keep in mind. Um, but yeah, I just thought that was a really interesting episode and yeah, great to hear from Amy. 

Krysia: And it was so much fun to record with Amy, and I think it's, as you said, it's really important, the distinction she made between mm-hmm.

Normal self-monitoring and stigma management. As I think certainly in conversations I've had with other churchgoers and researchers in the past, I've gone, oh, but everyone masks a bit and you're sitting there going. Yes, but no, that's not quite what's going on. It's, yes, you do self-monitor. Obviously Goffman talks about how people might present in different places theoretically, for those who've done sociology or social psychology.

And we know that happens within church groups that people might behave slightly different with people who they're really friendly with in their congregation [00:03:00] versus people who are perhaps newer versus people who perhaps they don't know so well. Or if bigger churches come together, you might get smaller groups popping up.

But that is really, really different to someone having to micromanage consciously and unconsciously at the same time. Every little thing to one, not get caught out as who they are and also be almost, I guess for the conversations I had in my thesis to be the best Christian, Muslim, yeah. Religious person.

Insert here. Possible. Because just because of the way that we have these expectations in social groups are just so strong. 

Zoe: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It made me think of like, um. Because I've been thinking a lot about dyslexia and masking, and I've been trying to be careful to tow this line of like, at what point is it a similar experience of like coming from stigma management, I was saying, but like a number of my participants talked about like distinctive moments where they [00:04:00] learned to fake that they were reading because they realized that if they didn't do that they were then excluded or experienced stigma.

And it's just like. It's so scary how you think, like, as she said, these things start in childhood. Like people realize they're different, have a significant moment of being like, oh, this is not good. I need to change this. And like, how sad is that, that that happens from childhood? And then as she kind of talks about like the unpacking of that is so challenging.

Yeah. 

Krysia: I guess I'd also argue that it's really important for, when we think of masking, we often think of autistic people masking. Mm-hmm. Because autistic communication is distinctively different from broader kind of neurotypical, inverted comma things. But I think all neurodivergent people do it when we think about how close A DHD is and autistic people's experiences can actually knock about.

And how many. Autistic people and ADHDers is actually can [00:05:00] also be dyslexic. Dyspraxic. Yeah. And have other broader neuro divergencies going on. 

Zoe: Yeah. And then shared about like the intersectionality with these things and other social factors. Um, yeah, it's, yeah, it was just fascinating. I think I said that like five times.

But no, I did find it really fascinating and um, I think really relevant conversation. Um, yeah. 

Ian: I, I love that idea of stigma management. I, I think it gets at something and, and I this is, this is maybe just an alternate lens for thinking about it or expressing the same thing, but when people say, everybody masks a little bit, I think what they're, what they're describing is something else entirely in that.

Hmm. Yes. We have socially maintained norms, and often those are maintained implicitly. Right. Those are communicated non-verbally, just with a, with a, mm-hmm. Glance or a, you know, small noise or something like that to let somebody know [00:06:00] that's not how we do things around here. Yeah. Right. Um, and that's different in that, and this is, I, I think this is the fundamental misunderstanding a lot of times between neurotypicals and Autistics.

Is that neurotypicals don't understand that when we're talking about autistic masking, we're not just talking about behaviors that can come and go. We're talking about things that are intrinsic to us as human beings, right? Mm-hmm. It's not parts of yourself that you can just Yeah. Slough off or cast aside.

Yeah. It's something that is. That is just the, the, the fabric of who you are as a person. And so if you're trying to enforce even what seemed like benign social norms, what you're saying to an autistic person isn't merely, we don't do that here. It's, you are wrong. For doing that, and so that's what masking is.

That's why it's stigma management. That's why it's a defense mechanism. Why sometimes I like the language of camouflaging over masking, even though I know [00:07:00] that's not as common, but it gets at the heart of what's going on it's people saying. Wow, this is terrible. I feel awful because of who I am.

So I can't be myself anymore. Yeah, you don't get that if you're enforcing a norm, like talking during the prayers in church, right? If you're doing that for a neurotypical person, they just go, oh, this isn't a time to talk. That's not intrinsic to their being. Yeah. But if you've got an autistic person who has echolalia they're repeating things because that's who they are, and that's the way that they process information and you scowl at them for talking during the prayers, you're telling them, you don't belong here and you're not right for this space.

Krysia: think that's what I find so fascinating about conversations that I had with Amy and also just broader conversations I've had is the implicit link between masking and how we are and how we appear and how then people then read if we are a part of the group or not, and if we [00:08:00] actually feel like we belong.

Because there is that in that link all the way through, whether we like it or not, that that does exist and I think that. Especially as when we think of a lot of teachings that actually can be around, especially things like Imago Dei and kind of things like that and things around inclusion and valuing everybody when we think of.

The fact that people are having to mask that almost sits at a bit of a problematic junction and cause quite a bit of friction between what we say we should do and what we actually are doing. 

Zoe: Yeah. Absolutely. And that was like touched on quite a bit in the episodes. Um, and I think there's definitely so much more we can unpack here about that, like that idea of like, theoretically, like I know how to be inclusive, or I know we should be inclusive, versus actually applying it and making people feel, um, like they're valued.

And [00:09:00] then. The next like step is creating safe spaces where people can begin to unmask and yeah, that's a really hard thing because it's, it's so true. In churches, no, we've said this multiple times. No church sets out to be exclusive. Churches at their very core are inclusive places and should be, and.

That's where it's like, it's almost a really strange dynamic because that like theory, but then what actually happens in practice is very different and a lot of people end up hurt and yeah, there's a lot we can unpack there. I don't know if either of you have any thoughts. Yeah, 

Krysia: I guess one thing that it reminds me of is, um, for, for listeners who.

I didn't hear the webinar that I did for CRAE at UCL a couple of weeks ago 

Zoe: plug the one you're doing with us Krysia 

Krysia: I'm doing another one with actually, but I'm doing, they're slightly different things. I've kind of tied things up and down, down kind of. Thing, kind of make them slightly distinctive. But one of the [00:10:00] things I actually got asked was, well, how do we solve this problem?

And I think it'd be really good for the three of us to all give our thoughts on how, because I think what I came forward saying is it's, it's not a one person trying to solve everything problem and having anything like I know. It can be really useful to have bite-sized things like checklists or how-tos, but I think you are looking at something really quite more complex and actually it's having those, as Amy and I were saying, having those conversations and being interested is actually a really good starting place and information sharing as well across.

Yeah, and learning from people because I think it's all very well going in with the attentive, I'm gonna make my church safe, but . I guess if you come in with that intention, you might not necessarily hear all the different kind of nuances going on. Um, there's obviously a need to listen to [00:11:00] neurodivergent people more broadly and of of those who do mask pass camouflage.

Pick your particular words in your language because lots of things will kind of fall into similarish buckets and actually that act, having a space where people can unmask it is great, but if we force people to. People should do it on their own terms and there might be bits that people do and bits that people don't because as we know, churches are part of the wider world and especially when we think of autistic masking, autistic people get kind of have to do it everywhere and things kind of interlying comp end up quite complex.

Although you might be able to be, create a space where someone might be able to feel a bit safer, you're not necessarily gonna completely undo everything everywhere else. Mm-hmm.

I wonder what you, yours two's thoughts are. 

Ian: So I, I have several, um, well I have a couple, at least one I'll, one I'll say, um, [00:12:00] is just, just being, just signaling your openness to a conversation, right? If I go to a church website and it says, all are welcome here, I am immediately skeptical, not of your intentions.

Right. But the truth is that can't possibly be true. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. This no community is for literally everyone. So you might, you might have the best of intentions, but that does not, that that ha that is a phrase that is devoid of content as far as I'm concerned. Right. I don't know what that means, except that you intend very well and I love that.

Yeah. But it, but it. In practice it means, means very little in terms of what I can actually take away from that. If on the other hand you have something on a frequently asked questions part of your website about worship or something like that, that says, if you have a disability of any kind and need accommodations or support, be in conversation with us and here's who to contact.

Even if I don't contact that person, I know that you have [00:13:00] put some thought into this and I know that you mean this as more than just a blanket statement that covers all our bases and now we don't have to worry about it anymore, right? Yeah. Um, so, so even if I'm not gonna email that person out of the blue before I try out your church, I think okay, maybe this is a church where if, if.

Everything isn't perfect, then I could at at least have that conversation. So that's one thing. Um, a similar thing, and this is, this gets to the idea of masking and, and why masking takes place, is I. Um, I still remember this is a little bit of a, of a, um, uh, getting a little bit sidetracked here, but I still remember this assignment when I was in like third grade where you had to describe an everyday activity as though you were completely foreign to it.

Like you were an alien observing it for the first time. Right? So something like making a peanut butter sandwich or brushing your teeth. Mm-hmm. And I still remember this [00:14:00] because it finally made things make sense to me, right? Because you're breaking down complex tasks into these composite parts. Um, and one of my favorite authors, Julio Cortazar, has a book, Gropius and Fama that, uh, Gropius and Famas that he talks about.

Uh, he does this, he describes how to comb your hair and it gets very. Um, magical realist and very weird and, and it's awesome. But this idea that you take a step back from being a member of your community and try to describe it from the outside as though you have never witnessed it before. What are the expectations of this community?

What are our social norms that are. Either implicit or, or somewhat enforced. And how can we examine how many of those are necessary and how many of those we could let go of if we wanted to, if someone came along who, who wasn't able to, to sort of abide by those norms. Not that I like that [00:15:00] terminology, but um, so how can we describe.

What our expectations are. How can we describe our worship in a way that knows that someone who is completely foreign to it, who has no idea what to expect, has a, has a clearer understanding? And as an autistic person, that helps me set expectations. I know what I'm walking into, and it shows me that you've given some thought into what are the norms of this community, and maybe you're willing to.

Um, to, to, to not enforce those unspoken norms that aren't part of that sort of inventory. Does that make sense? Like, is it okay if someone sits in the back and doesn't sing along? Is it okay if someone's talking during the prayers? Is it okay if someone's hand flapping in the front row? Because not every church is gonna say yes.

And if you say no to that, then just be honest about it, right? 

Krysia: Definitely because actually we, we, there are lots of, there isn't just, obviously we have the broader church, but there are lots of different churches with [00:16:00] lots of different ways of doing things and things, practices and things that are important to them.

And I guess I would also say that having it really clear, obviously, like Ian said, really clear on your website. Not just, oh yeah, we, we really inclusive. This s nice, but what do you actually do to see if it's a right fit for people who might want to unmask or who are neurodivergent and looking for a safer space?

Zoe: It really reminds me of the episode we had with Steven Owens who talked about St Throlaks community. Um, I can link the episode in the show notes, but, um, he talked about kinda one of his hopes for St Throlaks community is to have, he described it as like, almost like a trip advisor for churches and like, so people can just say like, yes, this church does this, this, this, this was really helpful for me.

And people can go to that and get a sense of what that church is gonna be like before they attend it. And, um, what, what [00:17:00] you're saying kinda resonates with that a little bit. I think just like, um, 'cause it's not a problem if not all churches work for everyone. Some churches have quieter music, some churches have loud music.

That's okay. Like you don't need to completely transform how you do church. To, I mean, sometimes you maybe do, but in terms of those kind of like styles of worship, styles of church, whereas actually if you're just honest, then that's helpful. I think what really resonated with me with the podcast with Amy was when she talked about being curious when talking to people before making assumptions, and I just think, I mean, again, it's like speaks into what you've both said, but I just think that's so key.

Is that like being curious, not just kind of. Like assuming someone doesn't want to engage or assuming someone's, um, not happy about something or, um, yeah, just being curious and forming relationships. Um, yeah, I think, uh, just echos what you both said. [00:18:00] And then also just while we were both talking, I was thinking about unmasking in different spaces in charge, like.

Maybe it's like we're so focused on like, oh, how can we be an inclusive church as a whole? But then actually, well maybe the first step is how can we create small communities or aspects of the service where people can feel they can unmask? And starting with those like small, safe spaces and seeing how that ripples out.

And like you were saying, unmasking isn't a case of like you unmask in one space and that's. You, you're your authentic self everywhere in the world. That doesn't happen. Um, and we shouldn't expect that to be happening. But yeah, just I guess thinking of like, okay, I guess it's kinda like you was saying, looking at what you do in your church service, identifying places that would actually, small things could be adjusted just to make people feel really safe.

Understood. And then again, the thing we come back to again and again is [00:19:00] education. Like find out about what it means for an autistic person to mask, um, listen to lived experiences as came up, like go to autistic sources. Um. I think those are good starting points. Um, also just not expecting people to like, oh, I'm an inclusive, I'm being nice unmasked for me because I'm a lovely person Like it.

Yeah. Okay. You might be the nicest, well intention person, but maybe you're not the right person for someone to feel comfortable with at that, at wherever they're at. And recognizing like. You're not gonna be that, you're not necessarily gonna be that person's who, that person needs to feel safe and that's okay.

I dunno if that makes sense. 

Krysia: Yeah, it does make sense. 'cause it backs, it kinda echoes what I was thinking about how relationships are just so key and actually having positive relationships. I've found it's been when I felt like I can advocate, can state. [00:20:00] What I need and when things aren't working is when I have those really positive one-to-one relationships.

Mm-hmm. And when things go wrong, it is normally, 'cause there is a power dynamic where people aren't really willing to listen to or engage. So actually really boiling it down, actually, it's about creating a space of humility and being open to listen. So kind of backing onto what Amy said about curiosity and.

Being aware that autistic people might have in other neuro people might have been hurt by other churches in the past, so it might take a bit of time and that that's fine. It's not like I think sometimes. As Christians, we can be really happy. Happy, smiley, smiley, and not be so comfortable with dealing with things that are slightly more uncomfortable.

Yeah, and I think this is one of the things that is more uncomfortable 'cause we are dealing with things like trauma and rejection and why does society is. Projected as, we don't think you should do this to [00:21:00] a person, and we should, in our church spaces, be trying to tip that on its head as best as we can.

Ian: I, um, just the idea of being curious reminds me of, I don't know if y'all watch Ted Lasso, but that great, there's a great scene in Ted Lasso. It's, um. If you haven't seen it, it doesn't resonate as well. But there's a scene where Ted lasso is judged as this sort of back country, um, American who doesn't know how to play darts and then wins a dart game.

And he says, essentially he gives this really good speech that where he says, be curious, not judgmental. Right? That if you were curious about me, you might have realized that I was. Better at darts than, than I look, or than you would expect. But he, he was judgmental instead. So this idea of being curious and not judgmental, often we are judgmental, right?

Um, of other people. And that's where masking comes from, is from that norm [00:22:00] enforcement, that judgment that we offer people instead of being curious, why is this happening? Not, this shouldn't be happening, right? Um. And the other, uh, I'll just give a a another one more example of what church communities can do in terms of examining occurred to me.

I, I have two kids. Both are neurodivergent in different ways, right? And there are plenty of churches where they would not be able to serve as acolytes for various reasons. One of them is incapable of sitting still, and one of 'em will talk at certain times in script and hand flap. And so. There are plenty of communities where that would not be acceptable on the altar.

I'm blessed to serve in a community where they can both serve as accolades if they're so inclined. Um, but that's not the case in every church. Right? And if you say everyone is welcome, but not in, not able to serve at the altar unless they are different, then what you are doing is encouraging or requiring masking in order to [00:23:00] fully participate in this community.

And that's, uh. I mean, we just have to own that. If you think that's worth the trade off, if you think the, the, the appearance or the aesthetics of your worship is worth that. I'm not here to judge, and I'm not here to finger point, but you need to be, you should be upfront about that. I think that that's helpful to be upfront about, because then people realize, okay, this is a community that takes the aesthetics of worship very seriously.

And I, I, I, I can't deviate from that because it, it won't be accepted. Does that make sense? 

Zoe: Yeah, that made so much sense. And yeah, a really helpful thing to end on, I think just that like be curious, not judgmental. Um, and that is such a be like, beautiful starting place.

Ian: It's such a good scene to, 

Zoe: okay, I'm gonna go watch it. Everyone else should watch it. Um, but yeah, no. So fab to discuss this and a really great episode with Amy if you've not listened to it. Yeah, go back and [00:24:00] listen. There's so much more than we've been able to address in this time. Um, but yeah, thank you for listening.

Krysia mentioned the webinar. We have a webinar where Krysia is sharing about her PhD thesis, and that is, uh, on the 12th of June. I. At 4:30 PM UK time, and if you wanna register for that, the link's in the show notes, um, it will be recorded. But we really recommend coming and asking Krysia questions, um, as there'll be a Q&A slot.

But yeah, if you have any questions, any thoughts, anything you wanna share with us. Or any topics that you want us to discuss on the podcast, you can message us at Autism Theology on social media or email cat@abdn.ac.uk

[00:25:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.