Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got Susie Latchford from Heal With Horses in Canada.
She's out on Lake Ontario.
In a peninsula.
It's a wine growing area.
Sounds divine, and it is divine.
About two and a half hours east of Toronto.
However, Canada has this thing called a winter.
And having lived in Canada myself, I'm always astonished when people are doing
the kind of work that we do there because it could be really tiring and tough.
And I first visited Heal With Horses, I think, oh, almost like 15 years ago,
and when it was still quite new and it's been growing and growing and growing
and I sort of watched these things from afar in awe watching as people do this
amazing work, but often in conditions that are really quite challenging.
So I've got Susie on the show to talk to us about how she does what she does.
And hopefully we can learn how to maybe all be a little bit.
Tougher or maybe more grateful for the slightly more temperate
climates that we're working in when we catch ourselves complaining.
So Susie, welcome to the show.
Can you tell us a little bit about Heal With Horses and what you do?
What's your approach and what you got started?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, that, that's a loaded question.
Mm-hmm.
So he, with horses came about with absolutely no plan really.
I read a couple of books one including The Horse Boy, which actually
led me to Rupert in, in Ileana.
So in that I'm the type of person that will go, Hmm, how do I learn that?
I really it's really inspiring me to have read that book and, and then
looked, you know, researched a little bit more and how do I learn that?
So I just am the type of person that will reach out and, and see what,
what can birth from that, I guess.
Yeah.
And lo and behold yourself and Ilena came and trained a
bunch of us here at the farm.
At that point, it, yes, it was very new.
We did have a couple of structures to be under during that, during that.
But that's that's how I started.
And before that, a certification called Feel, which is more like emotional
reflective work with horses non ridden.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And with that first certification, I felt, I didn't feel it
was as useful for children.
I, I guess you could say.
Mm.
And whereas the Horse Boy Method specifically, you know, was working
more with, with younger, younger people.
And I'm the type of person as well.
Like I have a culinary background, so everything's a recipe to me.
So I That's interesting.
Yeah.
That, that's my analogy in life is, is recipes and taking, you know, a little
bit of this and a little bit of that and, and then all of a sudden you have a,
hopefully a really good recipe at the end.
And so Horse Boy is, is one of the, the main ingredients at our farm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's interesting that you say that.
I'm always encouraging people to do more than Horse Boy.
As you may know, we actually have three programs now.
We have Horse Boy Method Movement Method, which is no horses
How to do the stuff at home.
Yeah.
Or in schools.
And then we also have something called Takin Now, which is
how to train the horses in the classical system from the ground.
All the in-hand work long reigning and lunging.
And this is done with, you know, adult artists people with trauma,
veterans first responders.
And that came out of necessity because we were battling for time to actually train
and maintain and condition our horses.
And then I was rather, oh gosh, actually it's the, it's our clients.
They could be the horse trainers and it, they turned out to be really good at it.
But I always, I'm always encouraging people to not just do what we do.
And this is something which I find perplexing about the therapeutic or
equine assisted world is that we all know that in any professional capacity
you want to have as many strings to your bow as you possibly can.
Right.
As many arrows in your quiver, because you just never know the
context of the particular person who's gonna walk through your door.
But so often one finds it's like, no, I only do this, you know, and I die on
this hill, you know, of this philosophy.
And it's like, well, right.
But it presumably, if we are asking.
People to make changes like a, an autistic child to speak, or somebody to
go through some transformation process.
If we are not doing that ourselves, if we are like rigid in a belief system, how
are we going to, what tools have we got really to help somebody else go through?
We're not really leading from the front, are we?
So I'm, I'm always very encouraged actually, when people say,
I don't just do horse boy.
I do like three or four other things.
'cause that to me is totally sane, you know?
So you, you've now grown from these small beginnings into quite a big operation.
You've got a, you've got an indoor space.
You, you have 27 horses you told me, and a hundred animals, social animals, you
know, 'cause you, as, as you say, you never know what someone's gonna get into.
And social animals of all kinds, you know, bring out communication.
But we're here, I'm, I'm interviewing you from Spain.
We're in November, heading to December.
And you know, I, I would warrant that the weather is rather different here
where I am to where it is with you.
How do you guys up there in Canada deal with the extreme weather conditions?
'cause, you know, even if you've got a covered space, you know, PE sometimes
it can be hard to drive people to get to you in blizzards and that sort of thing.
How, how do you make that whole thing work?
Suzie Latchford: It, it's definitely challenging.
Like we kind of, our doors stay open in the winter and we do keep scheduling.
But we have to be very what's the word I'm looking for?
We have to communicate with our, our participants or clients very openly
and be on the same page as far as like if it's totally ugly out mm-hmm.
And dangerous to try and get here, or the horses are just not able to,
you know, be themselves and mm-hmm.
Weather circumstances, then we have to, we have to reschedule and ca
cancel and, and then that also has you know, financial repercussions as well
because winter is already tough enough.
Mm-hmm.
But I guess, you know, being in our 15th year now w we've learned that we
have to be as busy as we can in the spring and summer and, and shoulder
seasons to prepare for the winter.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I mean, how do you deal with it?
'cause you know how particularly with autism, people can get very
latched onto and, you know, obsessive with the things that they like.
And I, I know I've been out to your place admittedly a long time ago, but
it was delightful and I could see how.
An autistic child or person could really rely upon that for
the high point of their week.
So when you're dealing with that kind of extreme focus, do you find that the
kids and adults that you're working with are, are actually pretty adaptable?
Does, does the, does growing up in Canada actually make people weirdly a bit more
adaptable because you, you just kind of have to roll with the seasons or mm-hmm.
Is it actually quite a problem?
Suzie Latchford: I think there's a scaling down that kind of happens from the summer.
Like we know, like with families and, and some families might even be bringing
their, their child twice a week Mm.
Times.
When it, when the weather is good.
But I'm telling you too though, but in the summer there's heat
problems that we have to deal with.
Ah, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: That's in Canada also gets really hot.
Yeah.
Bad.
Suzie Latchford: So it's like you're eure almost all the way around.
But we, but we make, do we, we try to do things earlier in the day.
Mm-hmm.
But again, communication, communication with our families
and and the scaling down like.
As school approaches in September, everybody's schedule changes.
And so there's already that little bit of interruption that I know is
challenging for the parents of, of kids on the spectrum that have to get out of
their summer routine and then get back into a school routine and then, you
know, and then the going into the winter and having that interrupted even more.
So I guess, I guess what I'm saying is it's not like an abrupt stop.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And there's, it makes Go ahead.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Suzie Latchford: Bit more leading, leading into, and I didn't even realize
that until you asked that question, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I find it intriguing because, you know, we
actually deal with this in the opposite way in Texas, where, you know, the
extreme heat through several months of the summer would really limit like
the hours you could do things and that it was even safe to do things.
And we had to really think around this.
But one of the things I, I find is that if one is following nature
weirdly, the children, particularly the really obsessive, slightly rigid
autistic children, I find that they follow it more easily when it's nature
than when it's a sort, it appears as an arbitrary thing that even when.
Cognitively,
there might be some challenges in understanding, well, why can't I go today?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
There's
Rupert Isaacson: something so uncompromising about a heat wave or
a blizzard that, you know, and maybe that's an intrinsic structure of the work
that we do that we don't really value.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I think we take it for granted, but it sort of actually do, do you not feel it
aids that flexibility in the human being?
Because so many people live sort of divorced from nature, including in Canada.
You know, you can be inside, or in Texas, you can be in the air conditioning.
But as soon as you actually have to go out, you do have to follow that pattern.
And perhaps by the time someone's been with you for a while,
they're actually in that pattern.
And neurologically they're adapting simply because of the environment.
Would you, what are your thoughts on that?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, I would agree a hundred percent.
And it's so,
yeah, we have to be that way.
Yeah.
With the, at least, I mean, on the farm here, like we live, eat, and
breathe, like we walk out our back door and we're immersed in our animals.
Mm-hmm.
Like there's 50 chickens or turkeys running at you, and, and then you go out
and open another gate, and then you're in the general population as we, as we
call it, with the goats and the mm-hmm.
And the pigs and the mini horses and but yeah, I, I would,
I would definitely agree.
Yeah.
That just ingrained perhaps and, and with the more structured autistic people Yeah.
They, and they don't necessarily wanna be out in it either.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's so interesting, I think that one of the great ills of our modern
life is that one can set up sort of unreasonable expectations about life.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which then effectively mean that one can never deal with
flex, the flexibility needed.
You know, so disappointments are crushing, you know, rather than, well, you know,
it's snowing out or it's just too hot.
Yeah, sure.
But that faith that, well, the weather will change and I'll be able to go back
again and until just sort of looking at this through the Canadian lens just now
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It hadn't occurred to me actually that so much of the work
that we all do, 'cause it's also nature based and outdoor based, is probably
getting more flexibility and life skills into people than we realize.
You know, you really
Suzie Latchford: about it that way.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: in our preamble.
Before we sort of switched on the record button here you were talking
really quite eloquently, I thought about your follow the child principle.
Mm-hmm.
And the idea of structures, this sort of is leads in from this nature
idea that your structures need to be somewhat invisible, but at the
same time very sound and, you know, nature imposes structures, right.
That are exactly like that.
But talk to us about that.
How, how do you implement your follow the child strategy and how do you
make sure that you are structured without it seeming oppressively?
So,
Suzie Latchford: For me it's,
I think being around horses so much has taught me to be more, to feel
more because that's what they do when, when they're reacting to something.
It's, it's a feeling that they're getting.
And then and, and when people come here,
it, each person's different.
And so I've learned to gauge how to, and to change my approach with
each person depending on what.
What their body language is saying in a, in a sense.
Which is also how horses live through body language, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so
I just allow that to, I guess it's being empathetic or, or compassionate
or, or but that gives me a sense of how to lead the session from there.
So we'll have so and so come a little girl who's on the spectrum and she's
fun in, in, in quirky, but she also has things that she has to have with her.
And so for, for instance, it's a, it's a little, she brings her her
bicycle helmet and it has spikes on the top and it's pink and cute.
And, and, but one day she wanted to be a unicorn and, you know, we might've,
I think we had a horse in already, but she wanted to ride the mini horse.
So we got mini horse in and put the unicorn.
We have a little unicorn costume or whatever that you can put
on there, halters and stuff.
Of course you did.
And, and so away what she had her unicorn helmet on and all of her stuff, and you
know, Lily had her unicorn helmet on.
They went, you know, down the driveway and then came back and that was enough.
And then she was onto the turkeys.
So.
We go play with the turkeys and then, you know, and then she
might wanna do something else.
And so we just, and, and we're just elaborating on, you know,
her intelligence and what she has to share and her questions.
And, and it's really quite fascinating the whole, the whole process.
So
Rupert Isaacson: where do you do, do you sometimes encounter people
who, this certainly happened to us in the early years when we were,
you know, always following the child because as you say, we wanted them
to sort of develop this voice mm-hmm.
Where particularly people who are struggling to communicate, you know,
they're being so directed all the time that they kind of lose the motivation to
communicate and communicating becomes, you know, a schlep an effort that they
maybe don't want to do because they're not being listened to anyway, you know.
And so we often found that spending that time at the beginning,
particularly sometimes, you know, a couple of months just building that
relationship where they really knew that we would listen to whatever they.
Brought to us even if it was negative, like, I don't want to do this, or
I wanna get down from the horse.
I don't wanna get on the horse side.
Yes.
Thank you.
Please tell me what else you don't want to do, because, you know, we
are, we are after communication here, we don't care whether it's a yes or
a no, but from our point of view, from our side, it has to be Yes.
Because we don't wanna be shutting down communication.
But, you know, we would sometimes get challenged by, or, you know,
criticized for saying, well, you guys have no structure, you know,
it's just like so open and so loose.
How are these kids gonna, you know, develop without you imposing
some kind of obvious structure?
And obviously we had our answers to that, but I'm intrigued to know what yours
are because I know that you are also really following the child in this way.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I, I feel it's learning from the child and, and mm-hmm.
If you're, if you're wanting to remain in a structured type session, then you're not
in the, the first time or second time they come, you're gonna lose that, that trust
and that if you can't get out of your own way on how you feel that structure
should be, or that session should be run.
Mm-hmm.
So you get out on those first few sessions of building that
communication and building that trust.
And then maybe they'll, you know, they'll never get confident enough to get on
the horse if that's what the goal is.
And another thing is still having the parents feel like their, their
kid isn't getting anything out of it unless they're on that horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But,
Suzie Latchford: you know, there's always, there's
Rupert Isaacson: always, do you run into that?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: What, how do you, how do you cope with it when you do?
Suzie Latchford: Well, we just assure the parents that, you know, that there's
reasons for why we're doing it this way, which is basically what I just said.
And that's building that communication and trust as with that person so
that they don't say no automatically.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that most parents actually
do accept the logic of that?
Or do you sometimes get pushback?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, sometimes we get pushback.
Mm, for sure.
Rupert Isaacson: What's your sort of second phase of explanation?
Like, you know, 'cause I say you, you, you could put it in that way that you
just put it to me and that obviously to me makes a lot of sense, but as you know,
sometimes it doesn't to, if you have to go a bit deeper, what do you tell them?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And, and.
I guess also, like I should mention this is that before, like, let's,
let's say, we'll give you an example.
We haven't met the family yet.
Somebody, a parent has just called and, or emailed and said, you know, we're
interested in trying this for a child.
They're this age and just got diagnosed as being on the
spectrum and blah, blah, blah.
So we invite them to come for a free meet and greet.
So that, you know, the, the child comes and the parents come and they get a
good idea of the environment and our philosophy as well, and, and sort of
preparing them for some of those things that could happen before they happen
definitely makes it a bit smoother.
Rupert Isaacson: That makes a lot of sense.
Mm-hmm.
We, we, we used to sort of, what I've found is I generally now with the last
few years, say to a parent or caregiver or, you know, here is the neuroscience
about why we have this approach.
And I'll even like have the diagram up on the, on the wall.
So like, you know, that's the, your cortisol problem.
Mm-hmm.
And this overstimulated nervous system problem.
Over here, we're gonna create this oxytocin and, you know, this BDNF,
this brain derived neurotrophic factor for the neuroplasticity
and this is how we're gonna do it.
But if we.
Threaten the child effectively with constraints.
We're just gonna get more cortisol, so we won't get that communication.
Are you down?
And then they'll normally say, oh yeah, but then what I'll say
is Right, but you'll forget that.
So, when and, and we are not guaranteeing that we're putting your kid on a horse
because if the kid does not want to, we're certainly not gonna do that,
which is, as you say, why you have all those amazing other animals as well.
So usually what I do is I actually say to them, I'm gonna want you after 12 weeks
to do a movement method course on, you know, even just online or a short one
with me, so that you do really understand what we're doing and you can take it home.
And then if they say, well, we haven't got time, I'll say, okay, I'll extend
it by another six weeks or eight weeks.
And then if the answer is still no, then I'll say, Hey, listen, maybe I need to
make this place available to a family that will go the extra mile at home.
Because yeah, as good as we are, we won't get the job done.
The only thing that will get the job done is if you actually
do this at home, kind of 24 7.
Do you, do you have a way of sort of bridging that gap?
Because I feel a lot of listeners and viewers.
Facing this issue, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And often it's a credibility issue 'cause we all have imposter syndrome.
Right.
You know, and there's, we've all had people say, well,
you're just playing with ponies.
And I'm like, well, actually we are.
But you know, there is this really good neurological reason why it
works, but there's nothing actually wrong with, with pleasure and joy.
Right.
So, yeah, you're obviously very experienced now and you can hold
your ground, but, you know, let's say you've got a young, young
employee, she's not, you know, as confident as you perhaps or something.
How do you, how do you help everyone to understand what the
true nature of structure really is?
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: that's a good question.
Our our manager right now is finishing her master's in counseling
and, and psychology, or she's gonna be a psychotherapist.
And when she's, she came to us as a placement student when she was doing her
undergrad in behavioral, what was it?
Behavioral psychology.
Anyways she tends to be very list oriented and very, you know, structured And and so
we we've, Liv has become less structured now, I guess within, within the, the
sessions and her facilitation skills.
So, where am I going with this?
Rupert Isaacson: The it, yeah.
You have to put your own staff through the learning curve too.
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: yeah, yeah.
So she, she can be that way outside of sessions until the session comes
and then she has to kind of, okay.
Start following the lead of the, of the,
Rupert Isaacson: sounds like she's more of a client than,
Suzie Latchford: than an
Rupert Isaacson: employee
Suzie Latchford: doing very well now.
And so it can be learned, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: It can be learned.
It's not black and white.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
I mean, and to be honest, I think in the early years I probably would've tried
to be more black and white in that way.
But by the time Horse Boy Method sort of became a thing, I'd already had
my ass handed to me so massively by my son, you know, with every time
I tried to, you know, impose that kind of authoritative thing that I
realized, yeah, this, this is futile.
But in fact, it's, it's not just futile.
It's, it's damaging and wrong and against happiness.
And when I looked at my own childhood, I was like, yeah, I, I wasn't, I
think this is why it's so hard for people to learn, follow the C child
as none of us grew up that way.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
We all grew up very directed and told what to do.
How's that affected?
You know, when I first met you, you.
Had these very young children who are suddenly now not so young.
No.
How has that affected your own parenting, would you say?
Suzie Latchford: Oh
I've, I've always been a very flowy, not, I hate trying to put things in a box.
It's been, it's a lifelong of mine and, which has been hard.
Well, with my parenting skills, Ron and I are both very on the same
page as far as raising our kids.
And you know, we may get criticized for, for being too open or too easy,
or not having enough structure, but our kids are all still here.
Well, that's, that's to my mind, we're like, well, that's okay.
We'll just, you know, build something onto the house and everybody can stay
here, be a community and blah, blah, blah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Suzie Latchford: I have that naturally.
I, I feel
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
I, I think you're right.
I think you and Ron both do.
'cause Ron, you know, I know your husband and he's also one of these.
Very flexible lateral thinkers.
But at the same time, you know, you guys do have a lot of structure.
Like, you know, Ron is a construction guy.
Yeah.
You can't build a house without structure.
Exactly.
You can't run a farm without structure.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you can't keep livestock without structure.
And I, so I often think people who don't come from those backgrounds
misunderstand what structure means.
Right.
They often think it means constraints, but actually structure.
I always feel structures like, like I'm looking at you now,
and what I see is Susie, right?
Mm-hmm.
But actually there's a structure to Susie.
There's this skeleton that's inside you.
There's this nervous system, which is very structured.
There's this, you know, pulmon system, there's all these structures.
But when I look at you, I'm not really aware of that.
Right.
I'm just more aware of the personality, the aesthetic, the person.
Or if I look at a tree, I'm not looking at the transpiration of that, what's going
up and down from the roots to the leaves.
I see tree, but of course there is structure and I always feel that that's
where people get structure wrong.
That they try to make it visible when it should be invisible.
And I, I feel that like if you're living the kind of life that you are
leading, you know, on a farm like that, the structures are so inherent.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean?
They
Suzie Latchford: absolutely.
And it's not nine to five.
See, and I've struggled, you know, over the years with.
Like, I don't have a nine to five job.
And, and so some, but we've grown up in a society that says your day
is supposed to be nine to five, and you're working from this time to that
time, and then on those times that you're not working, you're supposed to
be doing this, this, this, and this.
Yeah.
So that's, you know, as I said, coming out of a big, big burnout,
like those aspects of feeling guilty for, you know, not having the same
structure that other families have and our house looks like a barn most
Rupert Isaacson: of the time you should see mine.
That's why I've got this false thing behind me.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And the guilt of, of that and, and living in an unfinished house and you know,
Rupert Isaacson: you have guilt around that.
Yes.
Why?
Why Susie?
Because, because you, the, the, the happiness that you give people
through your farm and your non nine to five and everything is so tangible.
It's
Suzie Latchford: where is
Rupert Isaacson: the guilt from?
Suzie Latchford: I think it's just inherent like not, you know,
I grew up in a middle class.
Family, parents were teachers and different age and time in history.
And it, it was all about having a nice house and, and having it be
clean and, and, extracurricular activities are scheduled and you
know, like our life is just like,
and I'm okay with that.
I, I think now but it, there is a, there's a huge amount of acceptance
that you go through because you're not, you're not those things
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting to me.
You know, it's funny, when I met you, I never would've thought
that you'd have been somebody who suffered that way because
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: when, when you see people from the outside, you know, I, I,
I, I came to your farm, I came to your house, I saw you were doing great work.
You know, you had a great relationship, you had great kids.
The house is beautiful.
I, you know, I don't expect houses to not be a little bit messy
'cause you should see mine if we live outdoor lives like birth
Suzie Latchford: all the time.
And it never
Rupert Isaacson: would've occurred to me that you had anything but
pleasure in that experience.
Were you always feeling this guilt, do you think?
Or did it creep up?
Suzie Latchford: I think I've always had it for sure,
Rupert Isaacson: because I have, does Ron have it too?
Suzie Latchford: I have a very Type A mom.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Very, very type A mom and lover to bits.
And we're so involved in our lives, both of, both of my parents.
And always have been.
But she's very, very organized.
Very controlled and very structured.
And does she
Rupert Isaacson: criticize you for your wildlife?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah.
For sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you challenged her and say, all right, mom,
there's a hundred animals outside.
Tell you what we'll swap for a week.
I'll do the housework.
You keep all that going.
And then at the end of that, let's have a little talk about structure.
Suzie Latchford: And I don't get any more animals.
You have too many animals.
Like this year it was like, I want a Turkey.
I need Turkey in my life.
Now we have four turkeys and two peacocks.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: I'm like, and how
Rupert Isaacson: do you stop?
How do you stop the raccoons and the, and the coyotes getting them,
Suzie Latchford: The coyotes have been an issue.
Yeah.
But we have more of a compound now that's fenced.
Then the, the fences are high enough.
Yeah.
And we do big dogs, but their wimps and are al always with us in the
house, unless they come out with us.
But
Rupert Isaacson: well, the packs of coyotes will eat them too, so.
Yeah.
They, they are.
Oh
Suzie Latchford: yeah.
Oh yeah.
They're bad.
They're especially up where
Rupert Isaacson: you are.
'cause you have brush wolves, right.
You have the coyote wolf hybrids, which are actually quite a lot bigger.
Yeah, yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
But, raccoons.
I don't know.
They've never knock on wood, bothered us too much.
That might just be because of the dogs and there's just always gone around here, so,
Rupert Isaacson: so it's, it's very interesting to me.
So you also, you've also just said that you've just come out of a big burnout.
Mm-hmm.
Again, that's intriguing to me 'cause I think that's a bit of an,
a non-res subject in what we do.
I myself have gone through various times of burnout with this because
what, what we do is just so intense, you know, between the long hours,
between the responsibilities with the livestock, between the responsibilities
for just keeping people alive mm-hmm.
With horses, and then on top of that now to deliver the service and then, you
know, the financial instability and so on.
Tell me about this burnout.
Did it hit you by surprise?
And what did you do about it?
Suzie Latchford: Well, it's been going on for quite some time, and I think I,
I feel like you just get used to it.
Mm-hmm.
You can't stop.
Right?
This is the thing, like when, when you're feeling exhausted and
you know that you're not right.
But regardless the amount of responsibility on your
shoulder, it's like holding the.
It's like, you know, there's so many people responsible that you're
responsible for, and so many animals that you're responsible for that.
It just gets to be so overwhelming sometimes.
You know, when you have to manage staff and you have to pay your
staff and there's payroll and then, you know, our animal expenses just
for hay and feed is 42,000 a year.
So, and then trying to describe what we do to get funding, as I said in a box is,
is really, is really, really challenging.
Thank goodness for Chet GPT, I've just become best friends with ai.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
AI really does help with this stuff.
I agree.
Suzie Latchford: Oh, for grants, like, I was like, it's just such a breath of
fresh air because they just put it in the box that it needs to go in and then,
and then, you know, engage the reader.
That's that.
I don't
Rupert Isaacson: consider that cheating at all.
It's, it's exactly what AI is supposed to do.
Yeah.
It's not supposed to write your novel.
It's supposed to get you a grant.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And it's, I would spend probably weeks on a grant, whereas now I can spend hours.
Yeah.
So, but going back to the lead up to the burnout, it's, it's gradual.
Until you get to a point where I, like I was in a bad depression.
Like I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how bad it was until
I started to feel a little better.
Okay.
And this, this is just six weeks ago.
So, okay.
And then, yeah, the 42,000, it, it is to feed your animals, getting the hay
in, feeding them, you know, getting the hay out there, getting the, the feed in
for all of the animals and not having always enough money for payroll to, to
have some come in and feed for you, like on the days that you need it, right?
Mm-hmm.
So you do it and it, it just, it just compacts And it just got to the point.
And at my ripe old age of 53, like there's other contributing factors for women
that, of that age that impact as well.
And your body is, and your mental wellness just goes,
Rupert Isaacson: did it, when it hit you how did it manifest?
Like, did you just collapse?
What was the,
Suzie Latchford: Then
Rupert Isaacson: how did you keep things going?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
High blood pressure for a long time, like really bad.
Anxiety to the point where I'm just up in flight mode all the time.
So my central nervous system is like, Ooh, there's a bear out there constantly.
Not, which then would exasperate everything else.
Not resting properly not giving your body that time it needs to, or not giving
your body, not your body, not being able to, or your mind not being able to,
to deliver that rest because it's just
Rupert Isaacson: in.
Right.
So how did it manifest?
Like did you suddenly not getting outta bed one day?
Sorry.
Suzie Latchford: No.
Cortisol?
No.
I always had to get outta bed.
Like I always had to do it, but it just made it like, for a while I
didn't even wanna be around horses.
Yeah.
It was like connecting with our horses.
I was kind of like taking a back burner on wanting to facilitate.
Mm-hmm.
Not facilitate, like all those things that you loved and enjoyed that are all of a
sudden you're so terrified because you're like, where did my love go for that?
Because it feels like a burden right now.
Rupert Isaacson: This is so honest that you're talking about this.
Okay.
So do you feel you are out of it?
Do you feel you're still in it?
Do you feel, how, how are you, how are you coping with it?
How are you dealing with it?
Suzie Latchford: I am.
I'm coming out of it.
So now I'm all of a sudden I'm being more mindful and going, okay, you need
to give yourself a break and be nice to yourself because if you keep going on
this way you're gonna be good for nothing.
And I know that I, I still have a lot of work to do in this life.
Mm-hmm.
And I need to have the energy in order to, to move forward with that.
'cause I'm not done yet.
And I feel that intrinsically and authentically, intuitively.
Rupert Isaacson: So I generally feel that, yeah, when we have these,
these Nadia moments, these, you know, bottom of the barrel moments, it's
often actually right before there's going to be the next transformation
to the next really good thing.
I mean, I think we've all gone through enough of them in our lives to sort of
know that pattern, but it's, it's very, very hard to see that when you're in it.
And as you say, it's so relentless the, the life that we lead.
You know, so interesting listening to you because, you know, this is normally
what our clients come to us with, right?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think what do you find that it's giving you
actually even more empathy with the clients because you can really
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
It's almost scary 'cause you can relate so much better.
So
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah.
The vulnerability.
Yeah.
Thank you for, thank you for talking like this because, you know, it, this
work that we do, it's so predicated on having a strong personality,
leadership, all of these things.
And as you know, I mean it's, it's predominantly female run our, our world.
Luckily we've got some great male men within horse boy world, but you
know, it's vast majority is female.
And so one thing I, I really value about that is that you give, you see a lot of
really great female leadership and that knock on effect, not just to girls, but
also to boys, you know, to see strong women in these, in these leadership roles.
But mm-hmm.
I think it's, it's, it's also difficult because as you say you know, there
are certain things that can hit.
And you were saying just now at 52, you know, there are
certain contributing factors.
So can we talk about that actually really directly, because I think that
menopause is something which isn't talked about enough in our line of work
because pretty much all the women who are my colleagues you know, have been
running these programs for a while.
They perhaps started them in their mid thirties.
Yeah.
And then right about the time that they are really hitting their stride.
Boom, the menopause hits.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: how does this, I know, I, I know so many of our listeners and
viewers will be going, yep, that's me.
Mm-hmm.
Tell us about how that impacts you and the work and,
Suzie Latchford: well, you don't know who you are anymore.
Like, I was a bit of an identity crisis I found for myself.
And I know I talked to my doctor about it and he goes, you don't know how many women
that have come into my office and said that they don't know who they are anymore.
And that's a big one.
So it's rediscovering yourself in a different way.
All of a sudden, like, I'm gonna talk about periods because for me, my period
or, or my menstrual cycle each month was a bit of a navigation tool for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: So I knew it was like a, it's an ebb and flow, and
then all that's gone and you can't, it's like you're lost a little bit.
You're motherless
Rupert Isaacson: maybe.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Like the moon cycle or you know, I would know, oh, okay,
I am PMSing, so this is the next phase and this is the next phase.
And you know, you, you get your cycle and then a couple days later you feel
this sense of your skin feels better and your body feels better and your
cleansing and then, you know, it was just something to count on, something
that you knew and sudden it's gone
Rupert Isaacson: back to structure again.
Yeah.
Nature.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
You're not quite sure.
Yeah.
It's just learning a new way of being, I guess.
Rupert Isaacson: Is there kind of grief with that, that of, of sort
of almost watching an old self die?
Yeah.
Before the new self is birthed.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
It really, a hundred percent.
And yeah, those feeling and then the physical ailments of it, you know, all
of a sudden you skin is, say you're your, you know, your, you don't have
as much muscle or you've lost muscle and you're weaker and not as resilient.
And so all of those things that go along with that as well.
Did you find
Rupert Isaacson: that was a real, a, a real thing?
Like suddenly you're picking up the hay bale and thinking,
whoa, this feels heavier?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
For me it's my, yeah, the muscle, my, my muscles and legs and things like that.
And that, that could be contributing just also from being exhausted too.
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Mm mm Yeah.
So, yeah.
What, what, what are your strategies?
Let's structure them out.
So, so, so the strategies first for the hormonal side, because with
this is coming emotional, right?
Hormone is emotion.
And then let's go to the physical.
I think this is so useful for people to have a really frank discussion about
this, because you are not gonna stop, you know, you're gonna be doing this until
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Drop, right?
So you've got, and I think so many of our, our listeners who are in the same
boat, they're like, okay, I'm menopause.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm dealing with burnout.
I'm, but, you know, my, my, my practice is bigger than it's ever been.
Mm-hmm.
This is a measure of success.
Alright.
What are my strategies then?
So let's go to the and I know menopause is different for everybody, so it's
a bit like autism, you know, it's different in every person, right?
Yeah.
But what are your strategies emotionally?
Like what, be beyond the, the loss of Okay.
The, the menstrual cycle and, and identity, but, mm-hmm.
Or, or at least navigation as you said, but what are the other
emotional impacts and how do you, how do you deal with those?
Suzie Latchford: Hmm.
Being aware, like I was aware that I wasn't right, but it wasn't enough
almost to, because I still couldn't stop.
Mm-hmm.
And then that would exasperate everything.
But
for me now being at, you know, coming out of the burnout at this point, it's
just being more mindful and, and telling, like it's retraining your brain really.
And so, 'cause you can ruminate so much on stuff and it just gets worse and worse.
So stopping and being aware of your thoughts and trying to change that
negative chatter, but you have to have the strength to do that too.
So,
and I don't know,
gosh,
how, I guess you just get, I got so far down that I had to do
something to bring myself back up.
So I, I personally had to try a different medication for a bit
that helped my brain sort of.
Spark again, if you will.
Mm-hmm.
And that snapped me out enough to be able to take that step back.
Hmm.
And it, it just, and I, I just be started becoming more positive and I started
having those conversations in my brain that were more positive and more like
me again, because I'm a, I'm a, I'm a person that sees the, the glass half full.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Suzie Latchford: I was not, I was seeing the glass half empty.
Rupert Isaacson: That must have been quite shocking.
Yeah, it's
Suzie Latchford: scary.
It was very scary.
And, and so
yeah, being open to trying something different, whether it's,
you know, medication for a bit or
going to a naturopath, I don't, I don't know.
But there becomes this point where you know that if it, if you don't
do something, then you're just gonna go downhill and then nothing's good
for anybody or anything anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you also get to a point where you could reach out to help?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Indefinitely?
Yeah.
It.
I had to reach out to my family doctor and my friends and
support group and, and family.
And that had to be a combination of, of, of a few things.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's very difficult when you've been leading, you know, for so long.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
To,
Rupert Isaacson: because, because the worry is, you know, I think
for all of us is when we ask if someone else will step forward that
unless we are leading by example the whole time.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, people will lose their own momentum.
Have you actually found that that's not true?
Have you found that
asking your team to step up more has actually been galvanizing for them?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
So I, I was speaking about Olivia, who is basically our manager right now.
And she, like, she just, one of our staff went on maternity leave and so
it was time for, for Liv to step up and and she took it and ran with it.
And, you know, I feel so fortunate to have.
A young person, like she's just turning 25, a young person like
that to have so much like energy and inspiration and, and hard work.
And they're hard to find now.
Yeah.
And so I, you know, she's a godsend for me.
And I don't tell her enough, but I see, I see her being, she can be successful in
this in this industry, be because of that.
And there's just not very many people out there like that.
So, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's, it's
Suzie Latchford: definitely,
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, and listening to you talk, you know,
I, I, I'm starting to talk more and more about burnout when we
are doing the horse boy trainings.
Mm-hmm.
And telling people, look, you are gonna burnout.
In fact, if you think about your 24 hour cycle, you actually burn out every day.
There's a point at which you fall unconscious.
Right.
You actually could not stay awake and working if you tried, and if
you pushed yourself through that, it would just lead to insanity.
Mm-hmm.
But I, you know, in our sort of particularly our Protestant
Anglo-Saxon culture, this idea of to be the constant workhorse that
work ethic is so instilled in us.
That when the inevitable burnouts happen we are, we feel ashamed,
we feel it shouldn't be happening.
We try to fight it.
And more and more now I'm telling people expect it and plan for it.
Yeah.
And actually learn.
What is your burnout cycle?
Like, I think, I think I have a six weekly burnout cycle myself.
Because, you know, I travel a lot.
I'm on planes a lot.
I'm on jet lag a lot.
Then when I'm home, you know, there's large livestock and we've got clients
and blah, blah, blah, and I got young kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, of course there's going to be burnout.
And it used to be that I wouldn't, I wouldn't even allow the topic to
come up and then I'd notice myself like hitting the bottle and Yeah.
Being like really grumpy and not being nice and people pointing it
out to me, you know, and me like not wanting to hear that at all.
And then at a certain point kind of going, oh, actually, shit, you're right.
Okay, what am I gonna do about that?
And I started doing things that I never did before.
So, for example, I, I take naps I use yoga nidra a lot.
Yeah.
Have you come across yoga nidra?
The guided, it's phenomenal.
Yeah.
So guided meditations while you basically lie with your eyes closed.
Yeah.
You don't have to sit in some uncomfortable pose.
And basically what you do is you just go through a body scan of being aware
of these different parts of your body.
Mm-hmm.
And there's no wrong way to do it.
So if you fall asleep, it's fine.
And, but it, it's, they call it nons sleep, deep relaxation.
It's like a, a, a deep rest that where 15 minutes can be
like, you just slept tonight.
And just beginning to sort of let myself even just be comfortable with the
fact that I'm tired meant that I could
Suzie Latchford: It's not a weakness.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
But we were all brought up, you know, to see it as that
Suzie Latchford: I find, like even with Ron, you know, like it, if he's feeling
physically tired or you know, his back is sore, like I, it's it, for me,
it's like it affects him so much more.
Mm.
I'm assuming it's like a sign of, you know, weakness and, and it's not, it's
just your body's telling you something.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And if you've gone it as hard physically, you know, as you and Ron have, you know,
in the course of say, the last 20 years or, or so, you know, how can there not
be, you know, a point at which your body just says, dude, you know, come on.
And it's also gotta be hard for a guy like Ron, because I know him.
You know, he's, he's, he's a big strong dude.
He's very capable.
He's got all those skills.
He's used to being the guy with the skills and the guy with the strength
and the guy, you know, and to feel a kind of wobble in that is very scary.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So as you move forward now mm-hmm.
Because your, your, your program is as bigger than it's ever been.
As you say, you've got a hundred animals and you've got, you know,
four turkeys in your life as well as, you know, all the horses and so on.
Yeah.
How are you, how are you reorganizing everything so that this is now
sustainable for you personally?
Suzie Latchford: Definitely trying now to figure out like,
how is this gonna run without me?
Because once Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Succession plan.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Have to, and you know, it is a community organization.
Like we, we are a charity not one person that's supposed to own it.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You have a board and.
We do things a little differently, but we basically have picked our
board and we're all on the same page and, and get things done.
But preparing for the future as to I, you know, my goals right now are,
are to make things more efficient.
You know, there's still a lot of things lacking on the farm, like
just proper fencing and, and proper ways of making it easier to feed the
animals and, you know, not having all the goats eating the pig's food, even
though it's all the same, but Right.
Goats are
Rupert Isaacson: goats Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: And
Rupert Isaacson: great social animals, but they are a pain in the us.
Suzie Latchford: I, it's, they're, they're wonderful.
But when you, when it comes to feeding, it's mayhem and those things figured out
and, you know, so it's not frustrating.
Every day isn't frustrating when it's time to feed and, and having those going on.
And so those are, those are my main goals.
Moving, moving forward and, and still expanding our programs.
I don't wanna create a whole, like not many more new programs or anything.
I think we have a good core, core, core things that we're doing
that are working but becoming a little more affluent for me.
I, I would like to get back to doing a bit more of the communication type
pieces with the horses from the ground.
Mm-hmm.
And just think more about their body language, learning more about what, what
they're communicating back to us and being, to share that a little bit more.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
You know, one of the things which, you know, people often assume with
Horse Boy is that because it's a mounted program we're spending all
our time in the saddle and actually, you know, all the preparation for
it is on the ground, you know?
Yeah.
We are constantly doing groundwork with our horses so that when we're
in the saddle with someone else's kid, we know it's gonna flow, but
that flow actually comes from time spent on the ground with the horse
rather than time spent in the saddle.
And this is often I think, not looked at enough in therapy programs.
If they're ground based, the horse doesn't get enough exercise, you know, someone
actually should be riding them and trail riding them and taking them out in the
world and giving them an interesting time.
But that doesn't have to be you, that can be a, a another staff member, you know?
Yeah.
Or they love to jump and they love to go crazy, but they can be free jumped.
They can, there's so many ways to, to do that kind of thing, to give
them the outlet for that energy.
And at the same time, the people that are very riding focused.
Often don't spend enough time on the ground.
So often it seems to be about having a team where you've got people who have
their various likes and preferences, and then you can sort of divide the wellbeing
of the horse up into those chunks so that people aren't doing the thing that scares
them or that they don't really mm-hmm.
Like to do or bores them or, or whatever.
So much it is about tribe and team.
I feel you know, the, having spent time in Mongolia with actual horse
tribes, you sort of see how it's always a big extended family endeavor.
Horses are complex, particularly in those climates, and you deal
with this climate yourself.
I wanna go back to the winter and I know winter is, is a great time
for burnout in Canada when you have to be outside in it all the time.
I, I worked as a window cleaner, as an illegal immigrant in Montreal
through the winter and, you know, blah.
Yeah.
You know, but I was 21.
I mean, you know, imagine doing it at, you know, 50 something.
But how do you keep your horses and how do you go through
the winter with your horses?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
So our horses are out 24 7.
They have shelters in the field that you would think they
would use more than they do.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: yeah.
So they, they'll go in there, in and out, but it's not always
because the weather is bad.
So like, we've just never had, I, I grew up boarding my horse like I got a horse
when I was 12 and you know, she was in a stall, you know, and then turned
out during the day and then sort of brought back in and, and that's how I
just knew horses were just in a stall.
But when we moved to our property here and they could finally get horses back
in my life, we didn't have a barn.
So of course they had a shelter.
And I learned from that experience that they're pretty happy to be
able to come and go as they please.
And, you know, we feed, we have hay available 24 7, so, you know,
they're not worried about when their next meal is coming, which
creates less stress for them.
Mm.
And we feel when our horses come in to do a session or to do some work or for
a brush or for whatever reason, we feel that allowing them to go back out and
mingle with their herd and be a part of that equine system, if you will, is,
is the best thing we can do for them.
Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.
It's really interesting.
You know, we obviously in, I, I've been through all these
different ways of keeping horses.
When I was a boy, we kept our horses out all the time.
In England, except in the winter they came in at night, um mm-hmm.
Because they were hunters.
They were gonna be clipped, so they were wearing rugs, but then we'd
bring them in at night for warmth.
Yeah.
But they were outside in their herd all day, and that was just very normal.
Then of course, in Texas, well, we just had a 24 7 outside climate,
you know, horses needed shade.
They'd go in to shelters for the shade, but we, we had them,
you know, living outside of the shelters and they loved that.
Then when I moved to Germany, we spent the last several years in
Germany, it was really interesting.
We had to board the horses, and I'd always been very kind of, oh
yes, well, you've gotta keep your horses out, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it was the first time because we, we couldn't just like show up
and buy a farm that, I mean, the kids were very young and so on.
So we were like, okay, let's board the horses.
It'll be easier for us in these years because we need to give a lot
of attention to infant children.
And Germans are people who love rules and regulations and structure.
And so the, the summer was very easy because the horses
were out most of the time.
But the winter, they don't put the horses on the fields because they
don't want to see a lot of mud.
I grew up in England, it's like, yeah, mud.
I mean, it's just weird.
We invented mud.
It's like, you know, you awards for the Muddiest farm, you know, so, you've got
those Monty piping things about, you know, oh, have some nice mud, you know,
would you like a bit of mud with your mud?
But.
Then suddenly with them, mud's not allowed.
So what they would do is they would put the horses out for maybe two hours
a day in what they called a paddock.
And the paddock was just like this sterile area of sand.
They sure they could stand out there in a group.
They didn't even have a free ha thing.
And I looked at this and kind of went, what are we gonna do?
These horses are standing in like 22 hours a day, then they've just been put out,
okay, we are working them as well, so let's shave a couple of hours off there.
It's not enough.
What do we do?
So I thought, okay, this gives me a lot of compassion for people suddenly
who are having to keep horses in this way because they may not have a choice.
You know, they, they live in a outskirts of a town.
That's the only thing available.
And then you're at the mercy of the barn owner.
So we came up with this idea of crazy time where we spent a lot of time letting
horses free jump in groups, in herds, inside covered arenas or open arenas
with outside with, with better footing.
And we found that went an awful long way.
And then we'd like go in the forest in the day and we'd like ride one, lead two and
let them like gallop on anything we could do to like, give them their endorphins
and give them their social time and give.
But like we had to put so much effort into it.
Then we, then we rented a place where we could just keep them.
24 7 outside again with just shelters exactly as you described.
And Germany gets a bit of a Canadian winter not quite as bad, but we certainly
get quite a few weeks of like deep ice snow if you're a certain altitude.
And we found that the horses of course, just thrived.
And if you think about the step in Mongolia, that's exactly
what you find, isn't it?
You've got like really hot summers, but like massively cold winters.
And this is where the horse comes from.
This is what horses are actually adapted to.
Yeah.
So it it, it's intriguing to me that you, you, you've found that actually there in
Canada, even with the snowy climate, the horses really are totally okay with this.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Now we do blanket the ones that need it.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: But there's a, you know, we have one Oberon.
I mean, he's, he's an American cream draft in a Lucy Cano mix.
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, that sounds quite intriguing.
Suzie Latchford: You know, like, we've never blanketed him.
He doesn't need it.
He doesn't want it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sometimes they tear the blanket off.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: We put a rain sheet on him and he's also
the, the lead guy out there.
Right.
So we put a rain sheet on him and it freaked the entire herd out.
I had to take it off.
Rupert Isaacson: That's funny.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
They didn't know who he was.
It was like, it was funny.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you find that that is a growing thing in
Canada now that people are actually trusting a little bit more to nature?
Because certainly when I was living there, people were very much about putting the
horses up in the barns through the winter.
Is it beginning to change?
Suzie Latchford: I believe so, and, and I also, it's also depending on what
you're doing with your horse and where you're boarding it, so Absolutely.
You know, definitely there's boarding facilities out there where people can,
you have, you pay extra, but your horse has a stall or you pay less and it's,
they're out with other horses 24 7.
So it just depends on what you're doing.
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to be more and more that it's,
it's about the herd structures.
Yeah.
That really brings about the wellbeing for the horses.
And as, as much as I do these trainings going around different countries,
different places one of the things I see in the more old school types
of therapeutic riding center is lack of equine wellbeing, because
these herd structures are ignored.
I, I was actually very pleasantly surprised.
I went and did a, a training earlier this year in Michigan,
which is sort of, you know, as.
As Canadian as you can be while being an American or as American as you can
be while being a Canadian, there's an interesting hybrid of people.
There's like, you guys are kind of like Canadians, kind of cool, you know?
But this is a path international center.
You know, I'm used to the path international places, having these
very rigid structures and the horses are all in stalls all the time,
and often, frankly, not very happy and often a bit stiff and arthritic
and not looked after in that way.
Despite the fact that there's often a lot of good infrastructure
and all these safety protocols.
But this place is called Renew.
Had they'd built this barn and then realized actually the horses
don't really want to be in here.
And so they'd just gotten all these really cool outdoor paddocks with these horses
all in their different herd structures and the, even in their climate and the
resulting equine wellbeing that I was seeing mentally, emotionally, as well as
physically was just much more like what I'd see in a horse boy place, frankly.
Mm-hmm.
Do you, are you, do you help other people in their getting their
therapeutic things off the ground?
Do, do, do you, have you, do you sort of advise people now sort of a little
bit on lead structures and that?
I,
Suzie Latchford: I haven't yet, but I feel it's something, in the last year or so,
I've, I've been thinking more about, you know what, like I have enough wisdom now.
I feel that I could be sharing stuff to, to make it easier for other people
to try and do something similar.
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
I agree.
And, you know, I, I think something else that, you know, what's come up
through this conversation, I didn't expect us to, you know, be talking
about burnout and menopause and so on, but this is actually so important.
Mm-hmm.
Because if, if you don't have wellbeing or the horse doesn't have
wellbeing, how can you possibly transmit that to somebody else?
Right.
Suzie Latchford: Well, and that's why we started, all of these things were for,
to help people with their wellbeing.
And so yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's like doctor, physician, heal thyself.
But
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: so I, I feel that, you know, one of the things
I'd love to see from you would be a series of courses or trainings
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Really directed at people running these types
of businesses who are female.
Yeah.
But also male.
There's a sort of male menopause too.
You know, you can't really call it that, but you know what I mean, as, as people
hit middle age and the, the various, you know, things that can come up to
really say having, and I think for that.
If you were to sort of structure again that word out some sort of
course that people could do you yourself have to have gone through
it and felt the despair, right?
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Otherwise, what have you got to offer?
What do you, when would you say you arrived at that point of despair?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, definitely.
Yep.
What?
I was terrified.
Rupert Isaacson: EE exactly.
Did talk us through that.
Like did it suddenly catch you by surprise That was there suddenly like a realization
and, and what, what did your inner voice say when, when you hit that realization,
answer those two things, if you would.
So first thing is, is at what point did you notice that you really were
actually not just unhappy, not just depressed, not just, you know, tired,
not just, but actually despairing.
Let, maybe just go with that one first.
How at what point did you realize that
Suzie Latchford: within the last year?
Just feeling like I was spinning out of control not making good decisions.
Just vi like, I felt like I was vibrating at a level
Rupert Isaacson: with the people.
Good decisions with your livestock generally.
Like what?
All
Suzie Latchford: Everything.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Everything in myself how I was reacting to things.
Did you
Rupert Isaacson: find you were getting kind of mean?
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.
I was getting mean, I was not, I did not feel nice.
No, I wasn't being and did you
Rupert Isaacson: notice that at the time or were you just so into it
that you were kind of blind to it?
Suzie Latchford: I was aware of it in questioning it all the time.
Like, why am I feeling angry?
This is not me.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
And then at a certain point you went, okay, I gotta do something about this.
I gotta put, I gotta walk the walk that I'm, walk the talk
that I'm saying to my clients.
If you were to give advice to somebody who's hitting that, and I bet you so many
people listening to this are hitting that.
Mm-hmm.
And it's so honest of you.
It's, I I I, I've got so much respect for you, Susie, for, you know, 'cause
we could have just had, we could have just had a big conversation
about how successful your program is.
And it is, and, and it, what we mustn't lose sight of is that through this whole.
Burnout thing.
You never like dropped the ball.
You know, you, you, you, you kept it going.
Yeah.
You know, you, you, you fulfilled your, your, your obligations and so forth.
And again, so many of the women listening I think are in that
position where they are doing that.
But okay, so you, you reach that, that thing you say, okay, shit,
you know, I'm not myself, I'm being kind of mean as this not me.
This is not Susie.
And you're right.
I know you having, I hang, not hung out that long, but the interactions we had,
this is a very sunny, positive person, as you said, a glass half full person,
which is of course why you got the whole thing off the ground in the first place.
And of course Ron is that way too.
Yes.
But so did I know you said okay, you, you said okay to stop to this, to that.
But can you go into just a little bit more detail?
If you were going to, if you were going to give a, like a training
to another woman in your position a year from now, what would you say?
What, like what are the steps?
Like really what are the steps to like get through this, survive
it, and get back to thriving?
Suzie Latchford: Woo.
That's a hard one because, you know, I do think so differently.
I, I don't.
If I could go back and change a few things of how it all started.
I am, I am in general.
Let's start
Rupert Isaacson: there.
That's perfect.
Let's start there.
Suzie Latchford: Having a bit more of a plan, not being
running things so much on a whim.
And, and in that
Rupert Isaacson: structure,
Suzie Latchford: yes, there was a lot of sacrifice and I sacrificed
a lot, but then I also expected the people around me to sacrifice
things too, which is Ron, my family.
You know, like this just became, this farm became our lifestyle, which I was
okay with, but not always, you know, Ron may not have always been, you know,
like, it's, it's, he's formed around it and been a part of it, but it's, I'm not
even answering your question right now.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, no, but this is a free flow though.
I mean, and I just fired this at you and I, I think we're
arriving towards an answer, right?
Absolutely.
When you say, let's just back to your opening statement there,
you said you would have more of a, you've had more of a plan.
What would've been in that plan?
Suzie Latchford: Well, I didn't know, like at that point I didn't
know heel with horses was gonna be what it is today, like at all.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you didn't know how big it was gonna get.
Suzie Latchford: No, I didn't, you know, I, I didn't know that small animals
were gonna be a apart, I didn't know, you know, that we would expand on the,
on the horses as, as much as we have.
I didn't know what program, I didn't know we would have a mobile component.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.
We haven't talked about your mobile component.
I don't talk about that.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: So those, those little things are beautiful,
that, that came out of it.
But, but maybe going back and just having somewhat of a plan you
know, to start with, like, I didn't know how to get charitable status.
We didn't know anything.
We didn't know how to have a board.
We didn't know it.
It was just learning all of those things as we go.
Right.
And to be able to go back and do, you know, what, what are the, what
would you recommend to someone to, you know, not do some of those things
so that you don't arrive in such a burned out spot, having more money.
Right.
Nice Rupert, you know, having a little bit more of a some finances to, to go
into something like this with um mm-hmm.
Would certainly cut down a lot of the stress.
But I mean, I don't know it,
but then at the same time, like, this is the way that my life went with it.
It doesn't always have to be that for someone else.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
I wonder if what you are, what you are arriving at here is a
mentorship component, you know?
Yeah.
20 years ago when we were sort of getting into this this was a very
young field and I think we all got into it organically, obviously, you
know, I did, you know, it was never my intention, but obviously it happened to
me and then, you know, you go with it.
So I think people like you and I had to kind of react and roll with and a
sort of organic evolutionary process.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Whereas if someone was to come to us now and say, oh,
Ru or Susie, I would like to do this, you know, how should I proceed?
I think you'd be in a very good position to say, well, here are the, here's
here would be some good structures.
Here's some mistakes that we made.
Yeah.
Actually outta these mistakes, some good things happened, but, you know,
perhaps you could mitigate some stress by trying to grow in these.
Particular ways here are some pitfalls to avoid, et cetera.
You know, none of us had that, you know, coming 'cause who, who really could have
mentored us because when you and I were coming in, there was Path International.
There was tantra up where you were, they were running these very kind of
almost sort of military, you know Yeah.
Types of outfit, which we knew was not gonna work for our population.
People that don't follow top down instruction, you know, people that need
a much freer follow the child approach.
So we weren't gonna get that kind of mentorship.
Now where I got, where I was so fortunate was I got, 'cause I, you know, I
directly reached out for it, but all the mentorship I got from Temple Grandin
about how to proceed, and that's of course where Follow the Child comes from.
It's not some idea that Rupert Isaacson had it, it really came
from mentorship from Temple.
And actually probably you could argue from her mother, you know, who, who came up
with you could actually argue that Horse Boy Method and Movement method are largely
driven by the efforts and researchers of Temple Grandad's mother back in the 1950s.
But the, the, you know, we, we, we, yeah.
Our, our field was just very young.
If you were going to talk to your younger Susie, go back 20 years,
what would you tell her to do?
Suzie Latchford: Well, I would still tell her to listen to her gut and trust it.
I, I know that's mm-hmm.
You know, honor, know as much about yourself as you can.
I know that's difficult too, because you haven't gone through
a lot of the experiences yet and be true to your authenticity.
I mean, I am, I am a born introvert and learned how to be
an interesting, I learned how to be an for a very, very long time.
Mm-hmm.
Understanding those two things and knowing, oh, I'm feeling overstimulated.
Okay.
And that's my, that's, that's a cue to perhaps getting some solitude and,
and taking that time to breathe and ground again or whatever you need to do.
Because being out in the public all the time, and even if it's on
a farm and you're managing other people, you're, you're still on.
And it's, and when it's at your own home it's hard to have
those, boundaries, if you will.
So I think that's pretty important.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, most of us have to grow our practices out of our home places.
It's
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and it's interesting having done both I've, I've had the
experience of, you know, my practice being outta my house out of my farm,
and also my practice being at another farm and me having a house away.
And I'd say there's pros and cons to both.
Yeah.
But
if they are on your farm, as you say, it's really important that you
can find some territory of solitude.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Where at least people would only come in by invitation.
I think that's important, sort of looking at the, you know, because it, it is really
difficult as, you know, like when we were first starting at new trails, there wasn't
a bathroom unless he came into the house.
So it's just something simple like that.
You, you can't deny someone the bathroom, you know?
And then next thing you know, they're sat they're sat at your kitchen table
and people are sat there forever.
Yeah.
So you are running workshops out of where you are.
Mm-hmm.
And so how do you deal with, how do you do that when you got burnout?
Suzie Latchford: Well, exactly.
I haven't been doing them very much in the last couple.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel ready to go back to them?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Would you do them from your home now or would you look for another space?
Suzie Latchford: I don't have to do them in my home.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We
Suzie Latchford: have the clubhouse down there.
You
Rupert Isaacson: have a clubhouse.
Okay.
Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: that's in front of the we have a dome, a white riding
dome with the end walls, and it's like one of those fabric spaces.
And then, so the clubhouse is basically a 50 by, what
is it, 50, 50 feet long by about 15 feet wide.
And so we have a space that we can use in there, and then we
have outdoor spaces as well.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I, I, I, I, I hear you on all this.
It's I think there's a learning curve that everyone has to go through
where you do it in a way that perhaps isn't optimal because you can't.
Have, you can't wait for conditions to be perfect.
You know what I mean?
It's like, when is the right time to have a child or when is the right time to start
a business or it, it's, there's never a right time, so you just gotta do it and
Suzie Latchford: yeah, you'll learn.
Rupert Isaacson: But it might be more or less stressful.
Yes.
It's intriguing to me that you say you're an introvert that's
learned how to be an extrovert.
'cause I'd say I'm the same.
Suzie Latchford: Oh yes.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I can, I, you know, I can absolutely project a very
confident smokescreen and, and I have to.
I mean, it's, it's not that it's just life requires it.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But as you say, there is a cost.
And so if you don't try to balance it out with these periods of
solitude, you know, weirdly, I find plane rides really relaxing long.
I'm often doing long hauls, you know, between Europe and, and North America.
And it's like, ah, eight hours, no talking.
Suzie Latchford: You're like,
Rupert Isaacson: it's like I'm good.
Yeah.
And I often come off, you know, I get jet lagged, but I often come off quite
refreshed spiritually just 'cause there's been time to go and tell.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So something that you said, which I think is quite innovative
you've got this mobile unit.
I love that because we used to do a lot of that in the early years of Horse Boy.
We would take our animals out to schools to you know, autism facilities resident.
We'd even go into the parks in Austin with our horses and un just with a horse
trailer unbox and start playing with the ponies and seeing who wanted to come up or
you know, and even in Germany, actually, what I started doing, particularly when
we were at this boarding facility and I knew we had, we had people that you
just could not keep safe around that.
So I would say to that, to their group or their parent, meet me in the forest,
there's a car park like over there.
I will be there at 11 o'clock with two horses.
Yeah.
And learn to use those environments of public spaces.
So tell me about your I think not enough people do this kind of thing and people
get very stuck on their own properties.
Tell me about your mobile unit.
Suzie Latchford: Well, it, it came about actually quite a few years
back in a smaller scale where, you know, we get invited to bring
animals to the Lavender Festival over the weekend and blah, blah, blah.
But we, we wrote a grant and got some funding and it bought us a little van.
That we could put the animals in and, and then paid for us to go out in, into
some nursing homes in, in our community.
So that's how it started.
So nursing
Rupert Isaacson: homes are where you tend to do your mobile unit.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, that's how that began.
And so it is just, and now, you know, there we have enough of a
rapport that sometimes families will a ask us to come and bring the
animals for their child's birthday.
Or we've been, as far as Ottawa University, where they've had us come
in and during exams and bring the animals into the library to give,
give the students a bit of a break.
And I might just say, you know, we've brought a, a piglet bunnies.
What a great idea.
Rupert Isaacson: Who came up with that idea?
That's a great idea.
Suzie Latchford: I know.
Well, they contacted us and we, they, we did it twice one year.
And we were at Queen University just in October, and they had us come in for
their alumni event in October in the fall.
And, and again, and, and because so people are, are realizing that
that animals are, are helping people's wellbeing even if it's just.
Like, a lot of the time they have dogs walking around the airports and stuff,
or, or a, or a pig or something like that.
Just, just to offer some comic relief and a bit of stress relief.
So, but it a hundred percent
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
When you going into the old people's homes mm-hmm.
How do you, how do you do it?
Suzie Latchford: In the summertime, like in the spring and the summer, if they have
a garden, we'll, we'll do it out there.
But the last few times, the one nursing home, we've just, we have
a little Kon Kon Piglet right now named Bridget, and she is a star.
She's the cutest little thing you can imagine.
She's like a bull in a China shop, but she goes, she just walks in
with everybody and she, like, as soon as you scratch her, she flops.
So there's pictures of her just with the, the residents, like in their
wheelchairs, just bending over, scratching her, and we bring little, like, back
scratchers and stuff so that they're, they can reach the animals better.
We bring our goats the bunnies.
Yeah, we've even we can fit the mini horses in that little minivan as well.
We don't do that as often, but we have brought them to places
as well, so it's pretty cool.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you find is the reaction?
What, what does it bring out of people in business?
Oh, well,
Suzie Latchford: specifically in the seniors homes you'll get them,
like, they'll have memories like from, and, and it's fantastic.
Sorry, my dogs because they're actually talking about, you know, when they were
younger and if they lived on a farm and how the animals made them feel.
And, and it's rekindling like nice memories and nice feelings for them.
So that's pretty, it's pretty awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: Do stories come out?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us an example?
Does anything spring to mind?
Suzie Latchford: Oh, jeepers.
I haven't been doing them as much, so
I can't think of any specific stories offhand, but just really just the the
experiences of like, quite a few times of, of, you know, they'll be holding the
bunny and petting the bunny and they'll, they'll have a bunny story come up, or,
oh, I used to have bunnies or I used to.
Live on a farm, and I would, I would be the ones passed to, you know, feed
the chickens or get the eggs or, you know, feed the pigs and, you know, oh,
we used to have pigs when I grew up.
And it, it just, it also sparks a lovely conversation and communication piece
Rupert Isaacson: where Absolutely.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, what I think it seems to spark is neuroplasticity.
And, you know, one of the difficulties with the way we view aging in
our society is we put old people in, like old people parking lots.
Yeah.
And when these are the people who've got all the wisdom and you know, in any
other human system in the world, the elders are respected, treasured, looked
after, consulted with, you know, because they're your repository of a lifetime
of, of information that you need.
And here in the west, we just park them.
And of course when the brain is part, the body is parked, the brain
gets parked and the brain starts to, you know, not do what it should.
So one of the things which that's why I was intrigued about if stories come out,
because I've definitely seen mobile units at work and I wish there were more people
in our field doing the mobile units.
With the small animals.
Yeah.
You know, because often stories come out even with people who seem to
have retreated into dementia and then suddenly really lucidly you will get
a story about, you know, a particular time in their life that might have
a real resonance to the family.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe this family has lost that type of communication with that person
and then suddenly there's, you can retrieve a bank of memories and stories
that become part of the family law.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: bring that person back to life in the eyes of the family where
they might have sort of written them off.
And then also sometimes healing of trauma.
There was, I dunno if you listened, but we did a podcast a few weeks ago
with my friend Giddy Bergoff, who runs an amazing program in Germany, and she
used to actually be a dementia nurse before got into the whole equine thing.
And she talks about how the sense smoking a bunny or scratching a pig
or even like with a ball of wool or something sparking memories.
And some of these memories that were coming up were from the war.
And of people who'd really gone through some pretty terrible things as civilians
and had had to kind of push them down, you know, horrible things when the
Russians invaded, that sort of thing.
You can imagine.
And the stories of that coming up, bringing a kind of a healing
which maybe they'd sat on that story for 50 or 60 years.
Yeah.
So I'm, I'm a great believer in the mobile units going up, particularly
to the very young and the very old.
But, and then also the same, the same group they're called Green Care Farm.
They're in Munster in Germany.
In the local school, which was doing movement method.
Someone made a bomb threat or in a school shooting threat.
It was a school that was overwhelmed with Russian and Ukrainian refugees
and of course their fighting.
And this freaks everyone out and so they brought all of their
animals into the school and it completely changed the dynamic.
Mm-hmm.
So I often think that that's actually some of the best work
that people in our field can do.
Is that something that you are looking, you will expand, do you think?
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I would love, yeah.
Anything like that?
You know.
The education system is just, well, in Canada it's struggling.
Rupert Isaacson: Both show a place where it isn't.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: My teach my sisters are both teachers and my dad's
a retired teacher and my mom was in the education system as well.
So, I just hear from my sisters how chaotic is it?
It is.
And you know, and behaviors and how they handle them and or how
they're supposed to handle them.
And I feel like jeepers, all, you just bring an animal into the classroom
and change the tone, like immediately.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
It's like a shamanic effect.
Yeah.
It seems to bring out, put everyone on the top of their game somehow.
I agree.
Now of course if you do more mobile unit, then you have to be more extroverted.
So is that something that you might then now having gone through the burnout
cycle, delegate to another staff member,
Suzie Latchford: delegate most of that?
Yes.
It's usually I'm not usually going and and heading them, heading them up now, so,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that kind of what you, your advice would be to people
hitting that mid career thing with What we do is just start learning to delegate?
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
And that's never been my forte, so, but yeah, you have to, you have to.
Now how do you do it?
Well, I mean, I have, I have Liv or I have that I, I can do that with, and she
takes a lot of that off my plate for me.
Yeah.
You know, she was a McDonald's manager and I swear, and Emma, our assistant manager
is also, was, also worked for McDonald's as a manager and they got it going on.
Like they know how to delegate, they know how to Well, they have
Rupert Isaacson: a system, right.
They get given a, a system within that franchise, don't they?
Yeah.
Like you don't have to like figure out how to run a McDonald's.
They tell you how to run a McDonald's.
Yeah.
And
Suzie Latchford: they've applied that elsewhere in their lives now.
Mm.
You know, for this position or for, you know, whatever they're going into.
I think there's been more, I have another staff that was also a manager.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that the golden rule?
Is, the golden rule is look to the golden arch when you're hiring your staff.
Suzie Latchford: They were taught to organize and, and you know, like I've
worked in the restaurant business and serving industry as well and it does
teach you like, you know, you have to have a process and you know, you're
picking up a plate off the table.
And there's another plate there, or a glass or something else on another table,
and you have room to take that too.
Then you do it.
Yeah.
Right.
And it, it's so yes, having the key people that are engaged in what we're doing
and, and love it for the same reasons you do, which isn't always easy to find.
Like that's so important in, in the delegating real.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do?
This is, this is a, an another thing which I think a lot of us face is okay.
It is very easy to say, well, when I was young, we worked harder
than the current generation.
And of course I heard the previous generation to me saying that, but
I do feel that there's a fragility and a lower resilience in general
in the current young person.
They, they, I, it is something to do with social media.
It's something to do with, it really is feeling that solutions can come really
fast when actually they, they can't and you have to, you know, whatever.
I, I find it, it is definitely getting harder to find the
younger people who can do this.
I mean, McDonald's must be finding this too, but yet they seem to be thriving.
Okay.
Yeah.
Where do you, and I'm used to thinking of Canadians as very hardworking
people because, you know, in a very hardworking period of my life,
I was living in Canada and Yeah.
Surrounded by hardworking Canadians, you know, like your husband and you.
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what are you doing in terms of, yeah.
Trying to find those people who still have that, that grit.
Suzie Latchford: We, we haven't actually looked, they've come, which is so, like,
as I said, oh, and we've gone through many, we've gone through many, many staff
changes, and in nutshell, they're hard to find and they're hard to keep because you
know, your pay scale isn't always as high.
Especially like, I, I'm the biggest volunteer ever Yeah.
In this organization.
People have to be paid and, and, you know, not always knowing if you can
afford that within your organization.
But then now I'm on this train where I'm just going to write as many grants as I
can and and then use that as a model for the, for the years coming, I would always.
Pass grants to somebody else and not always, just in the last couple of
years and we weren't getting enough in.
Okay.
So now, you know, I'm, I'm back on that.
And where does
Rupert Isaacson: one look for, for grants in Canada or in Ontario?
Suzie Latchford: Well, like we, we have a number that will
come right from our community.
So applying for those ones and getting your, they're not always
like a huge amount, but, and then they're, now, now with ai, it's a
lot easier to find the, the ones that you couldn't necessarily find before.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there grants that come from government in Canada?
Suzie Latchford: There are grants that come from government, but we are
not government funded, so they would have to be like the, on the Ontario
Trillium Foundation or the Trillium Foundation is a big government one.
That, and there's other ones available that come up, but depending on
what kind of organization you are and whether your mandate fits
those, those grants or another.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
But you find that you can actually fund yourself to a large
degree through grant writing.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
And, and, and finally, we're at a point where, you know, we
could make a business plan now.
Yes.
You kind of know will I might over the winter.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel, as, you know, we're sort of approaching
the, the two hour mark here.
It, it's really what I love is that this conversation did not go
where I expected it to go, but I went where I think it needs to go.
Mm-hmm.
Which is that we have to, we do have to
realize that we are the client as well as the, we are the service user
as well as the service provider.
Suzie Latchford: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps, perhaps the thing about the burnout
thing is it keeps you honest.
Right?
It keeps you from getting into dynamic that, oh, I am the therapist, I am the
the one who has it all, you know together, and you are the one who needs help.
You know?
And when you find just like, Nope.
Yeah know
I can't imagine it can do anything, but make it make you better
at what you do, Susie, because
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Clearly, you know, heal with horses has just.
Gone from success to success.
Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: And we can't always measure.
And that's another thing I've had to come to terms with is I, it's hard not to
measure success in a society that measures monetary financial as being successful.
Yeah.
Like it's only successful if
you can pay yourself lots of money and things like that.
So for me, it's coming to terms with starting something that is very
successful and has helped hundreds and thousands of people and animals.
And not to always, I'm okay with it, but it's like when I see people looking back
at me, you know how you do that kinda, or talking to somebody or you've met
somebody and you kind of like see them.
Like, what are they seeing when they're looking back at me?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think they see anything other than just
a self-actualized woman who has made a great go of doing
a business that heals people?
I mean, I, I can't imagine that anyone looks at you through any kind
of critical eye for saying, well, you should be making the same money
that a lawyer makes or something.
I,
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
Do you really think that people are judging you like that?
Suzie Latchford: I don't, no, not necessarily.
I guess it's my own judgment.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Suzie Latchford: you're right.
It's my own judgment.
I would like to be able to contribute more financially to our home and our,
but I've just done it in a different way.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, here is a, here's a little exercise we could
go through, because I bet you that you are not the only person running
a program who has this feeling.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So bear with me here.
Okay.
I know that what I'm about to say is gonna make you have a knee jerk reaction.
So I'm not gonna tell you to not have the kneejerk reaction.
I just want you to notice that kneejerk reaction and see if
you can not stay there too long.
Right?
So have it, but then go kind of, oh, well there's that kneejerk
reaction that's, you know, part of my conditioning, but I don't, okay.
What's my next thought?
Let's just go.
So, so what if, and I want all you people who are listening and watching
this to perhaps do this with us.
What if
enormous financial success
is about to come
through?
Doing what you do or through something completely unexpected.
It could come from either and to just say, I am open to the possibility
that this could be the case.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And just try that thought on.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you don't have to think, well, how would that be?
What can I do?
Or do I need to have some, you know, online program or, or, so just I'm open
to a feeling of absolute financial ease
from whatever source.
And now we take it to the next level, which is, does that, do you feel a
slight sense of discomfort in the base of your throat as we talk about this
or in your chest somewhere or,
Suzie Latchford: yeah, maybe a little in my
Rupert Isaacson: approach.
Yeah.
Okay.
That would be normal, right?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So I want to now dive into that discomfort for about.
Six seconds, it's not much.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
What I want you to do is think, well, but how on earth can that happen, Rupert?
How can I resolve my financial quandary
and still deliver what I do?
And as you ask that question, I want you to breathe in through your
nose and we're gonna hold it till it gets a little bit uncomfortable.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'll do something like that with my hand.
Mm-hmm.
And I want you to let it go.
Give it to God.
We'd like a shout a roar.
I'll do it along with you.
'cause it's always a good thing to do.
Okay.
So, so sorry listeners, this is gonna startle you in a moment.
And then we just give it to God and let it go and let the universe sort it out.
All right.
So first thing, now, feel that discomfort at the base of your throat.
Now you're gonna breathe in through the nose and really hold that question till
it feels like you kind of want to cry.
So here we go.
Okay.
It's taken care of.
Suzie Latchford: It's actually, somebody showed me
Rupert Isaacson: that one a while ago and it, it's worked.
It's really worked.
Suzie Latchford: It's one thing that I do believe when I'm feeling like
unsuccessful or why do I keep doing this?
Or I just wanna throw in the white flag, like yeah.
Or so.
But I always know that
the universe
will provide and
for whatever reason going through the difficulties and the challenges are all
part of it's all part of the work and.
I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't have the support from, from Spirit
or the universe or, or what have you.
So they, it has provided, I mean, it's not like we haven't gotten a
lot of what we need to make something like this successful when starting
it on a thin with absolutely no plan.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Suzie Latchford: So, but thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, I'm grateful.
I'm grateful that we had this conversation.
I'm grateful to you not just for the work you do, but you know, for the, for the,
for for, for putting a spotlight on this very, very real
Suzie Latchford: Well, there's
Rupert Isaacson: of what we do.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
A very big human aspect in what we do as humans and, and like that's so important
to, to talk about what we did today.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it is,
Suzie Latchford: because it's not talked about enough.
It's sometimes only talked about, you know, the good things and the positive
things about all the lives you felt change and bring positivity to, but it does come
as at an expense to yourself sometimes, you know, that's real and that's reality.
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like the listeners and, and viewers, could
you, if you, if you're gonna comment perhaps below, if you say watching
this on YouTube or so, tell us.
What your challenges have been with this work and what
you've done to mitigate them.
'cause I think we, we need a sort of technology bank of this.
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, for sure.
We want this feel to expand.
It has to, the need has never been greater.
So as the new generation come in, we need to prepare them.
Suzie Latchford: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So please do, do what Susie has done and,
and share your experience.
Susie, it's been so brave and honest of you.
I have so much respect for you.
Really.
I, I, I, I, I cannot quite put into words how humbled I feel by your
absolute candor here and, and, and yeah.
The bravery it takes to come on a, a public forum and really talk
completely real but from a place of love, you know, it, it's, I,
I'm just very grateful to you.
Thank you.
Suzie Latchford: Well, thank you, Rupert.
I'm, I'm glad we could share this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, likewise.
And I, I hope we can cross paths also with Ron, you know, perhaps, you
know, sooner than the next 15 years.
Maybe we need to do a gig.
Maybe we need to do a, a, a a clinic or a workshop or something at yours again.
Yeah.
Should, should we, should we figure that out for next year?
Maybe.
Suzie Latchford: Hundred percent.
I would love that.
Rupert Isaacson: It's been so long since I was in Canada.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'd love to.
Suzie Latchford: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And again, my friend, just thank you so much.
Truly, truly, truly you've, you've actually given me strength by
talking about this, so thank you.
Suzie Latchford: Gotten a lot myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Suzie Latchford: From this.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
I'll let you go and introvert now.
Okay.
Oh, before we haven't even gone.
Your, how do people find you on the web and all that stuff?
Oh, yeah.
Donate and all of that.
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.
Heal with horses.ca,
Rupert Isaacson: heal with horses.ca
Suzie Latchford: our website.
We're on Facebook, Instagram what is our Instagram deal with Horses Farm.
I think
Rupert Isaacson: you, like me, you don't even know your Instagram.
Is that I'm terrible that way.
Suzie Latchford: Don't wanna do that part.
Rupert Isaacson: And is there a donate button on the on, on the heel with horses?
Suzie Latchford: There is, yeah.
All right,
Rupert Isaacson: lads, you heard that?
Donate money Please.
Now to heel with Horses.
They're doing stellar work out there in Ontario.
And design Need
Suzie Latchford: as need.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Okay.
Until the next time.
Suzie Latchford: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
Suzie Latchford: Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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