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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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I've got Susie Latchford from
Heal With Horses in Canada.

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She's out on Lake Ontario.

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In a peninsula.

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It's a wine growing area.

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Sounds divine, and it is divine.

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About two and a half
hours east of Toronto.

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However, Canada has this
thing called a winter.

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And having lived in Canada myself, I'm
always astonished when people are doing

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the kind of work that we do there because
it could be really tiring and tough.

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And I first visited Heal With Horses,
I think, oh, almost like 15 years ago,

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and when it was still quite new and it's
been growing and growing and growing

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and I sort of watched these things from
afar in awe watching as people do this

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amazing work, but often in conditions
that are really quite challenging.

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So I've got Susie on the show to talk
to us about how she does what she does.

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And hopefully we can learn how
to maybe all be a little bit.

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Tougher or maybe more grateful
for the slightly more temperate

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climates that we're working in when
we catch ourselves complaining.

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So Susie, welcome to the show.

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Can you tell us a little bit about
Heal With Horses and what you do?

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What's your approach and
what you got started?

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Suzie Latchford: Yeah, that,
that's a loaded question.

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Mm-hmm.

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So he, with horses came about
with absolutely no plan really.

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I read a couple of books one including
The Horse Boy, which actually

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led me to Rupert in, in Ileana.

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So in that I'm the type of person that
will go, Hmm, how do I learn that?

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I really it's really inspiring me
to have read that book and, and then

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looked, you know, researched a little
bit more and how do I learn that?

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So I just am the type of person that
will reach out and, and see what,

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what can birth from that, I guess.

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Yeah.

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And lo and behold yourself
and Ilena came and trained a

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bunch of us here at the farm.

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At that point, it, yes, it was very new.

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We did have a couple of structures
to be under during that, during that.

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But that's that's how I started.

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And before that, a certification called
Feel, which is more like emotional

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reflective work with horses non ridden.

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Mm-hmm.

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Okay.

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And with that first certification,
I felt, I didn't feel it

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was as useful for children.

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I, I guess you could say.

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Mm.

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And whereas the Horse Boy Method
specifically, you know, was working

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more with, with younger, younger people.

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And I'm the type of person as well.

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Like I have a culinary background,
so everything's a recipe to me.

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So I That's interesting.

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Yeah.

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That, that's my analogy in life is, is
recipes and taking, you know, a little

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bit of this and a little bit of that
and, and then all of a sudden you have a,

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hopefully a really good recipe at the end.

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And so Horse Boy is, is one of the,
the main ingredients at our farm.

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Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's
interesting that you say that.

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I'm always encouraging people
to do more than Horse Boy.

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As you may know, we actually
have three programs now.

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We have Horse Boy Method Movement
Method, which is no horses

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How to do the stuff at home.

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Yeah.

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Or in schools.

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And then we also have something
called Takin Now, which is

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how to train the horses in the
classical system from the ground.

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All the in-hand work long
reigning and lunging.

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And this is done with, you know,
adult artists people with trauma,

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veterans first responders.

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And that came out of necessity because we
were battling for time to actually train

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and maintain and condition our horses.

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And then I was rather, oh gosh,
actually it's the, it's our clients.

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They could be the horse trainers and it,
they turned out to be really good at it.

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But I always, I'm always encouraging
people to not just do what we do.

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And this is something which I find
perplexing about the therapeutic or

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equine assisted world is that we all
know that in any professional capacity

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you want to have as many strings
to your bow as you possibly can.

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Right.

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As many arrows in your quiver,
because you just never know the

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context of the particular person
who's gonna walk through your door.

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But so often one finds it's like, no,
I only do this, you know, and I die on

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this hill, you know, of this philosophy.

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And it's like, well, right.

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But it presumably, if we are asking.

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People to make changes like a, an
autistic child to speak, or somebody to

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go through some transformation process.

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If we are not doing that ourselves, if
we are like rigid in a belief system, how

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are we going to, what tools have we got
really to help somebody else go through?

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We're not really leading
from the front, are we?

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So I'm, I'm always very encouraged
actually, when people say,

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I don't just do horse boy.

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I do like three or four other things.

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'cause that to me is
totally sane, you know?

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So you, you've now grown from these small
beginnings into quite a big operation.

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You've got a, you've got an indoor space.

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You, you have 27 horses you told me, and
a hundred animals, social animals, you

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know, 'cause you, as, as you say, you
never know what someone's gonna get into.

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And social animals of all kinds,
you know, bring out communication.

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But we're here, I'm, I'm
interviewing you from Spain.

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We're in November, heading to December.

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And you know, I, I would warrant that
the weather is rather different here

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where I am to where it is with you.

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How do you guys up there in Canada deal
with the extreme weather conditions?

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'cause, you know, even if you've got a
covered space, you know, PE sometimes

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it can be hard to drive people to get to
you in blizzards and that sort of thing.

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How, how do you make
that whole thing work?

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Suzie Latchford: It, it's
definitely challenging.

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Like we kind of, our doors stay open in
the winter and we do keep scheduling.

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But we have to be very what's
the word I'm looking for?

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We have to communicate with our, our
participants or clients very openly

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and be on the same page as far as
like if it's totally ugly out mm-hmm.

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And dangerous to try and get here,
or the horses are just not able to,

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you know, be themselves and mm-hmm.

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Weather circumstances, then we have
to, we have to reschedule and ca

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cancel and, and then that also has you
know, financial repercussions as well

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because winter is already tough enough.

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Mm-hmm.

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But I guess, you know, being in our
15th year now w we've learned that we

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have to be as busy as we can in the
spring and summer and, and shoulder

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seasons to prepare for the winter.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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I mean, how do you deal with it?

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'cause you know how particularly
with autism, people can get very

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latched onto and, you know, obsessive
with the things that they like.

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And I, I know I've been out to your
place admittedly a long time ago, but

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it was delightful and I could see how.

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An autistic child or person
could really rely upon that for

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the high point of their week.

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So when you're dealing with that kind
of extreme focus, do you find that the

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kids and adults that you're working
with are, are actually pretty adaptable?

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Does, does the, does growing up in Canada
actually make people weirdly a bit more

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adaptable because you, you just kind of
have to roll with the seasons or mm-hmm.

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Is it actually quite a problem?

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Suzie Latchford: I think there's a scaling
down that kind of happens from the summer.

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Like we know, like with families and,
and some families might even be bringing

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their, their child twice a week Mm.

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Times.

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When it, when the weather is good.

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But I'm telling you too though,
but in the summer there's heat

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problems that we have to deal with.

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Ah, yes.

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Rupert Isaacson: That's in
Canada also gets really hot.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Bad.

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Suzie Latchford: So it's like you're
eure almost all the way around.

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But we, but we make, do we, we try
to do things earlier in the day.

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Mm-hmm.

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But again, communication,
communication with our families

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and and the scaling down like.

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As school approaches in September,
everybody's schedule changes.

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And so there's already that little
bit of interruption that I know is

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challenging for the parents of, of kids
on the spectrum that have to get out of

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their summer routine and then get back
into a school routine and then, you

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know, and then the going into the winter
and having that interrupted even more.

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So I guess, I guess what I'm saying
is it's not like an abrupt stop.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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And there's, it makes Go ahead.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

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Suzie Latchford: Bit more leading,
leading into, and I didn't even realize

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that until you asked that question, so.

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I find
it intriguing because, you know, we

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actually deal with this in the opposite
way in Texas, where, you know, the

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extreme heat through several months
of the summer would really limit like

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the hours you could do things and
that it was even safe to do things.

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And we had to really think around this.

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But one of the things I, I find
is that if one is following nature

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weirdly, the children, particularly
the really obsessive, slightly rigid

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autistic children, I find that they
follow it more easily when it's nature

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than when it's a sort, it appears as
an arbitrary thing that even when.

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Cognitively,

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there might be some challenges in
understanding, well, why can't I go today?

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Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

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There's

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Rupert Isaacson: something so
uncompromising about a heat wave or

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a blizzard that, you know, and maybe
that's an intrinsic structure of the work

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that we do that we don't really value.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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I think we take it for granted, but it
sort of actually do, do you not feel it

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aids that flexibility in the human being?

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Because so many people live sort of
divorced from nature, including in Canada.

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You know, you can be inside, or in Texas,
you can be in the air conditioning.

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But as soon as you actually have to go
out, you do have to follow that pattern.

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And perhaps by the time someone's
been with you for a while,

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they're actually in that pattern.

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And neurologically they're adapting
simply because of the environment.

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Would you, what are your thoughts on that?

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Suzie Latchford: Oh, I would
agree a hundred percent.

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And it's so,

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yeah, we have to be that way.

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Yeah.

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With the, at least, I mean, on the
farm here, like we live, eat, and

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breathe, like we walk out our back
door and we're immersed in our animals.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like there's 50 chickens or turkeys
running at you, and, and then you go out

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and open another gate, and then you're
in the general population as we, as we

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call it, with the goats and the mm-hmm.

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And the pigs and the mini
horses and but yeah, I, I would,

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I would definitely agree.

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Yeah.

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That just ingrained perhaps and, and with
the more structured autistic people Yeah.

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They, and they don't necessarily
wanna be out in it either.

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Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's, it's so interesting, I think
that one of the great ills of our modern

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life is that one can set up sort of
unreasonable expectations about life.

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Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: Which then effectively
mean that one can never deal with

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flex, the flexibility needed.

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You know, so disappointments are crushing,
you know, rather than, well, you know,

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it's snowing out or it's just too hot.

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Yeah, sure.

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But that faith that, well, the weather
will change and I'll be able to go back

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again and until just sort of looking at
this through the Canadian lens just now

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Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: It hadn't occurred to
me actually that so much of the work

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that we all do, 'cause it's also nature
based and outdoor based, is probably

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getting more flexibility and life
skills into people than we realize.

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You know, you really

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Suzie Latchford: about it that way.

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It's

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Rupert Isaacson: in our preamble.

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Before we sort of switched on the
record button here you were talking

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really quite eloquently, I thought
about your follow the child principle.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the idea of structures, this
sort of is leads in from this nature

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idea that your structures need to
be somewhat invisible, but at the

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same time very sound and, you know,
nature imposes structures, right.

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That are exactly like that.

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But talk to us about that.

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How, how do you implement your follow
the child strategy and how do you

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make sure that you are structured
without it seeming oppressively?

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So,

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Suzie Latchford: For me it's,

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I think being around horses so much
has taught me to be more, to feel

00:14:40.177 --> 00:14:46.267
more because that's what they do when,
when they're reacting to something.

00:14:46.267 --> 00:14:48.967
It's, it's a feeling that they're getting.

00:14:48.967 --> 00:14:52.217
And then and, and when people come here,

00:14:54.647 --> 00:14:56.567
it, each person's different.

00:14:56.567 --> 00:15:01.217
And so I've learned to gauge how
to, and to change my approach with

00:15:01.217 --> 00:15:03.627
each person depending on what.

00:15:04.122 --> 00:15:08.172
What their body language
is saying in a, in a sense.

00:15:08.332 --> 00:15:11.542
Which is also how horses live
through body language, right?

00:15:11.747 --> 00:15:12.167
Mm-hmm.

00:15:13.322 --> 00:15:13.892
And so

00:15:16.262 --> 00:15:22.502
I just allow that to, I guess it's
being empathetic or, or compassionate

00:15:22.502 --> 00:15:27.452
or, or but that gives me a sense of
how to lead the session from there.

00:15:27.542 --> 00:15:33.662
So we'll have so and so come a little
girl who's on the spectrum and she's

00:15:33.662 --> 00:15:39.392
fun in, in, in quirky, but she also has
things that she has to have with her.

00:15:39.392 --> 00:15:44.612
And so for, for instance, it's a,
it's a little, she brings her her

00:15:44.822 --> 00:15:49.482
bicycle helmet and it has spikes
on the top and it's pink and cute.

00:15:49.482 --> 00:15:55.512
And, and, but one day she wanted to be
a unicorn and, you know, we might've,

00:15:55.992 --> 00:15:59.952
I think we had a horse in already,
but she wanted to ride the mini horse.

00:15:59.952 --> 00:16:05.472
So we got mini horse
in and put the unicorn.

00:16:05.972 --> 00:16:08.912
We have a little unicorn costume
or whatever that you can put

00:16:08.912 --> 00:16:10.292
on there, halters and stuff.

00:16:10.292 --> 00:16:10.622
Of course you did.

00:16:11.297 --> 00:16:18.752
And, and so away what she had her unicorn
helmet on and all of her stuff, and you

00:16:18.752 --> 00:16:21.722
know, Lily had her unicorn helmet on.

00:16:22.442 --> 00:16:26.762
They went, you know, down the driveway
and then came back and that was enough.

00:16:26.762 --> 00:16:28.262
And then she was onto the turkeys.

00:16:28.592 --> 00:16:29.162
So.

00:16:30.077 --> 00:16:33.467
We go play with the turkeys and
then, you know, and then she

00:16:33.467 --> 00:16:35.777
might wanna do something else.

00:16:35.777 --> 00:16:40.187
And so we just, and, and we're
just elaborating on, you know,

00:16:40.337 --> 00:16:44.627
her intelligence and what she
has to share and her questions.

00:16:44.627 --> 00:16:49.637
And, and it's really quite fascinating
the whole, the whole process.

00:16:49.637 --> 00:16:49.997
So

00:16:51.257 --> 00:16:53.717
Rupert Isaacson: where do you do,
do you sometimes encounter people

00:16:53.717 --> 00:16:56.777
who, this certainly happened to us
in the early years when we were,

00:16:56.837 --> 00:16:59.927
you know, always following the child
because as you say, we wanted them

00:16:59.927 --> 00:17:02.237
to sort of develop this voice mm-hmm.

00:17:02.477 --> 00:17:06.017
Where particularly people who are
struggling to communicate, you know,

00:17:06.107 --> 00:17:12.767
they're being so directed all the time
that they kind of lose the motivation to

00:17:12.767 --> 00:17:18.687
communicate and communicating becomes,
you know, a schlep an effort that they

00:17:18.687 --> 00:17:22.797
maybe don't want to do because they're
not being listened to anyway, you know.

00:17:23.367 --> 00:17:29.217
And so we often found that spending
that time at the beginning,

00:17:29.367 --> 00:17:31.947
particularly sometimes, you know, a
couple of months just building that

00:17:31.947 --> 00:17:36.567
relationship where they really knew
that we would listen to whatever they.

00:17:37.437 --> 00:17:40.257
Brought to us even if it was negative,
like, I don't want to do this, or

00:17:40.257 --> 00:17:41.247
I wanna get down from the horse.

00:17:41.247 --> 00:17:42.357
I don't wanna get on the horse side.

00:17:42.357 --> 00:17:42.537
Yes.

00:17:42.537 --> 00:17:42.957
Thank you.

00:17:43.137 --> 00:17:45.717
Please tell me what else you don't
want to do, because, you know, we

00:17:45.717 --> 00:17:48.507
are, we are after communication here,
we don't care whether it's a yes or

00:17:48.507 --> 00:17:51.987
a no, but from our point of view,
from our side, it has to be Yes.

00:17:52.257 --> 00:17:54.657
Because we don't wanna be
shutting down communication.

00:17:54.987 --> 00:17:58.317
But, you know, we would sometimes
get challenged by, or, you know,

00:17:58.317 --> 00:18:00.927
criticized for saying, well, you
guys have no structure, you know,

00:18:00.927 --> 00:18:03.177
it's just like so open and so loose.

00:18:03.177 --> 00:18:07.287
How are these kids gonna, you
know, develop without you imposing

00:18:07.287 --> 00:18:08.667
some kind of obvious structure?

00:18:08.817 --> 00:18:11.937
And obviously we had our answers to that,
but I'm intrigued to know what yours

00:18:11.937 --> 00:18:14.637
are because I know that you are also
really following the child in this way.

00:18:15.807 --> 00:18:21.617
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I, I feel it's
learning from the child and, and mm-hmm.

00:18:22.487 --> 00:18:28.547
If you're, if you're wanting to remain in
a structured type session, then you're not

00:18:28.787 --> 00:18:34.577
in the, the first time or second time they
come, you're gonna lose that, that trust

00:18:35.027 --> 00:18:41.117
and that if you can't get out of your
own way on how you feel that structure

00:18:41.117 --> 00:18:43.517
should be, or that session should be run.

00:18:43.517 --> 00:18:43.607
Mm-hmm.

00:18:43.877 --> 00:18:49.427
So you get out on those first
few sessions of building that

00:18:49.427 --> 00:18:51.377
communication and building that trust.

00:18:51.902 --> 00:18:56.252
And then maybe they'll, you know, they'll
never get confident enough to get on

00:18:56.252 --> 00:18:58.232
the horse if that's what the goal is.

00:18:58.652 --> 00:19:02.822
And another thing is still having
the parents feel like their, their

00:19:02.822 --> 00:19:05.852
kid isn't getting anything out of
it unless they're on that horse.

00:19:06.422 --> 00:19:06.602
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:19:06.602 --> 00:19:06.812
But,

00:19:07.172 --> 00:19:08.582
Suzie Latchford: you know,
there's always, there's

00:19:09.602 --> 00:19:10.592
Rupert Isaacson: always,
do you run into that?

00:19:11.672 --> 00:19:12.182
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

00:19:12.242 --> 00:19:12.962
Definitely.

00:19:14.282 --> 00:19:16.142
Rupert Isaacson: What, how do you,
how do you cope with it when you do?

00:19:17.582 --> 00:19:21.332
Suzie Latchford: Well, we just assure
the parents that, you know, that there's

00:19:21.332 --> 00:19:26.792
reasons for why we're doing it this way,
which is basically what I just said.

00:19:26.792 --> 00:19:34.052
And that's building that communication
and trust as with that person so

00:19:34.052 --> 00:19:36.212
that they don't say no automatically.

00:19:36.842 --> 00:19:38.102
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find
that most parents actually

00:19:38.102 --> 00:19:39.272
do accept the logic of that?

00:19:39.332 --> 00:19:40.772
Or do you sometimes get pushback?

00:19:41.912 --> 00:19:43.652
Suzie Latchford: Yeah,
sometimes we get pushback.

00:19:44.612 --> 00:19:45.062
Mm, for sure.

00:19:45.632 --> 00:19:48.567
Rupert Isaacson: What's your sort
of second phase of explanation?

00:19:48.567 --> 00:19:51.387
Like, you know, 'cause I say you, you,
you could put it in that way that you

00:19:51.387 --> 00:19:55.917
just put it to me and that obviously to
me makes a lot of sense, but as you know,

00:19:55.917 --> 00:20:00.837
sometimes it doesn't to, if you have to
go a bit deeper, what do you tell them?

00:20:01.707 --> 00:20:02.067
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:20:02.072 --> 00:20:02.522
And, and.

00:20:05.367 --> 00:20:10.767
I guess also, like I should mention
this is that before, like, let's,

00:20:10.797 --> 00:20:13.287
let's say, we'll give you an example.

00:20:13.287 --> 00:20:14.667
We haven't met the family yet.

00:20:14.937 --> 00:20:19.737
Somebody, a parent has just called and,
or emailed and said, you know, we're

00:20:19.737 --> 00:20:22.107
interested in trying this for a child.

00:20:22.107 --> 00:20:26.757
They're this age and just
got diagnosed as being on the

00:20:26.757 --> 00:20:28.737
spectrum and blah, blah, blah.

00:20:28.977 --> 00:20:31.647
So we invite them to come
for a free meet and greet.

00:20:32.157 --> 00:20:37.347
So that, you know, the, the child comes
and the parents come and they get a

00:20:37.347 --> 00:20:42.987
good idea of the environment and our
philosophy as well, and, and sort of

00:20:42.987 --> 00:20:48.277
preparing them for some of those things
that could happen before they happen

00:20:48.487 --> 00:20:50.407
definitely makes it a bit smoother.

00:20:51.277 --> 00:20:52.537
Rupert Isaacson: That
makes a lot of sense.

00:20:52.897 --> 00:20:52.987
Mm-hmm.

00:20:53.232 --> 00:20:58.307
We, we, we used to sort of, what I've
found is I generally now with the last

00:20:58.307 --> 00:21:07.037
few years, say to a parent or caregiver
or, you know, here is the neuroscience

00:21:07.037 --> 00:21:08.447
about why we have this approach.

00:21:08.447 --> 00:21:11.627
And I'll even like have the
diagram up on the, on the wall.

00:21:11.627 --> 00:21:14.987
So like, you know, that's
the, your cortisol problem.

00:21:14.987 --> 00:21:16.007
Mm-hmm.

00:21:16.013 --> 00:21:18.257
And this overstimulated
nervous system problem.

00:21:18.527 --> 00:21:22.517
Over here, we're gonna create this
oxytocin and, you know, this BDNF,

00:21:22.517 --> 00:21:25.367
this brain derived neurotrophic
factor for the neuroplasticity

00:21:25.367 --> 00:21:27.107
and this is how we're gonna do it.

00:21:27.107 --> 00:21:27.797
But if we.

00:21:28.652 --> 00:21:31.982
Threaten the child
effectively with constraints.

00:21:32.612 --> 00:21:36.122
We're just gonna get more cortisol,
so we won't get that communication.

00:21:36.782 --> 00:21:37.472
Are you down?

00:21:37.472 --> 00:21:39.752
And then they'll normally say,
oh yeah, but then what I'll say

00:21:39.752 --> 00:21:41.972
is Right, but you'll forget that.

00:21:42.682 --> 00:21:46.832
So, when and, and we are not guaranteeing
that we're putting your kid on a horse

00:21:46.832 --> 00:21:50.642
because if the kid does not want to,
we're certainly not gonna do that,

00:21:50.642 --> 00:21:53.732
which is, as you say, why you have all
those amazing other animals as well.

00:21:54.112 --> 00:21:59.212
So usually what I do is I actually say to
them, I'm gonna want you after 12 weeks

00:21:59.662 --> 00:22:04.312
to do a movement method course on, you
know, even just online or a short one

00:22:04.312 --> 00:22:09.232
with me, so that you do really understand
what we're doing and you can take it home.

00:22:09.562 --> 00:22:14.452
And then if they say, well, we haven't
got time, I'll say, okay, I'll extend

00:22:14.452 --> 00:22:16.432
it by another six weeks or eight weeks.

00:22:16.552 --> 00:22:23.182
And then if the answer is still no, then
I'll say, Hey, listen, maybe I need to

00:22:23.182 --> 00:22:29.782
make this place available to a family
that will go the extra mile at home.

00:22:30.442 --> 00:22:35.062
Because yeah, as good as we
are, we won't get the job done.

00:22:35.122 --> 00:22:37.462
The only thing that will get
the job done is if you actually

00:22:37.462 --> 00:22:40.492
do this at home, kind of 24 7.

00:22:40.852 --> 00:22:45.562
Do you, do you have a way of
sort of bridging that gap?

00:22:45.562 --> 00:22:48.052
Because I feel a lot of
listeners and viewers.

00:22:49.147 --> 00:22:51.067
Facing this issue, you know?

00:22:51.072 --> 00:22:51.332
Mm-hmm.

00:22:51.417 --> 00:22:53.827
And often it's a credibility issue
'cause we all have imposter syndrome.

00:22:53.827 --> 00:22:54.097
Right.

00:22:54.157 --> 00:22:56.827
You know, and there's, we've
all had people say, well,

00:22:56.827 --> 00:22:57.907
you're just playing with ponies.

00:22:57.907 --> 00:22:59.407
And I'm like, well, actually we are.

00:22:59.437 --> 00:23:02.347
But you know, there is this really
good neurological reason why it

00:23:02.347 --> 00:23:05.677
works, but there's nothing actually
wrong with, with pleasure and joy.

00:23:05.677 --> 00:23:06.097
Right.

00:23:06.517 --> 00:23:10.507
So, yeah, you're obviously very
experienced now and you can hold

00:23:10.507 --> 00:23:14.587
your ground, but, you know, let's
say you've got a young, young

00:23:14.587 --> 00:23:18.697
employee, she's not, you know, as
confident as you perhaps or something.

00:23:18.937 --> 00:23:22.477
How do you, how do you help
everyone to understand what the

00:23:22.477 --> 00:23:24.127
true nature of structure really is?

00:23:24.127 --> 00:23:24.187
Yeah,

00:23:26.707 --> 00:23:27.877
Suzie Latchford: that's a good question.

00:23:29.177 --> 00:23:33.577
Our our manager right now is
finishing her master's in counseling

00:23:33.577 --> 00:23:37.807
and, and psychology, or she's
gonna be a psychotherapist.

00:23:37.807 --> 00:23:42.427
And when she's, she came to us as a
placement student when she was doing her

00:23:42.427 --> 00:23:45.447
undergrad in behavioral, what was it?

00:23:45.447 --> 00:23:46.737
Behavioral psychology.

00:23:47.037 --> 00:23:56.417
Anyways she tends to be very list oriented
and very, you know, structured And and so

00:23:56.417 --> 00:24:04.257
we we've, Liv has become less structured
now, I guess within, within the, the

00:24:04.257 --> 00:24:06.537
sessions and her facilitation skills.

00:24:06.537 --> 00:24:08.727
So, where am I going with this?

00:24:10.527 --> 00:24:11.697
Rupert Isaacson: The it, yeah.

00:24:13.137 --> 00:24:15.927
You have to put your own staff
through the learning curve too.

00:24:15.927 --> 00:24:16.317
Yeah,

00:24:16.707 --> 00:24:17.817
Suzie Latchford: yeah, yeah.

00:24:17.997 --> 00:24:24.027
So she, she can be that way outside
of sessions until the session comes

00:24:24.027 --> 00:24:25.662
and then she has to kind of, okay.

00:24:27.362 --> 00:24:29.452
Start following the lead of the, of the,

00:24:29.777 --> 00:24:31.217
Rupert Isaacson: sounds like
she's more of a client than,

00:24:31.702 --> 00:24:32.112
Suzie Latchford: than an

00:24:32.392 --> 00:24:32.512
Rupert Isaacson: employee

00:24:33.562 --> 00:24:34.997
Suzie Latchford: doing very well now.

00:24:34.997 --> 00:24:36.857
And so it can be learned, right?

00:24:37.247 --> 00:24:37.607
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:24:38.477 --> 00:24:39.467
Suzie Latchford: It can be learned.

00:24:39.497 --> 00:24:40.727
It's not black and white.

00:24:41.237 --> 00:24:42.047
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:24:42.047 --> 00:24:46.937
I mean, and to be honest, I think in the
early years I probably would've tried

00:24:48.347 --> 00:24:50.527
to be more black and white in that way.

00:24:50.527 --> 00:24:55.057
But by the time Horse Boy Method sort
of became a thing, I'd already had

00:24:55.057 --> 00:24:59.377
my ass handed to me so massively by
my son, you know, with every time

00:24:59.377 --> 00:25:04.067
I tried to, you know, impose that
kind of authoritative thing that I

00:25:04.067 --> 00:25:07.337
realized, yeah, this, this is futile.

00:25:07.337 --> 00:25:09.167
But in fact, it's, it's not just futile.

00:25:09.167 --> 00:25:12.707
It's, it's damaging and
wrong and against happiness.

00:25:12.707 --> 00:25:17.987
And when I looked at my own childhood,
I was like, yeah, I, I wasn't, I

00:25:17.987 --> 00:25:20.717
think this is why it's so hard for
people to learn, follow the C child

00:25:20.717 --> 00:25:21.977
as none of us grew up that way.

00:25:21.977 --> 00:25:22.307
Right.

00:25:22.782 --> 00:25:23.082
You know?

00:25:23.087 --> 00:25:23.537
Yeah.

00:25:23.597 --> 00:25:27.557
We all grew up very directed
and told what to do.

00:25:28.427 --> 00:25:29.267
How's that affected?

00:25:29.417 --> 00:25:31.157
You know, when I first met you, you.

00:25:31.802 --> 00:25:35.732
Had these very young children who
are suddenly now not so young.

00:25:36.332 --> 00:25:36.482
No.

00:25:36.482 --> 00:25:38.882
How has that affected your
own parenting, would you say?

00:25:39.302 --> 00:25:39.722
Suzie Latchford: Oh

00:25:41.972 --> 00:25:49.622
I've, I've always been a very flowy, not,
I hate trying to put things in a box.

00:25:49.622 --> 00:25:56.822
It's been, it's a lifelong of
mine and, which has been hard.

00:25:58.562 --> 00:26:03.602
Well, with my parenting skills,
Ron and I are both very on the same

00:26:03.602 --> 00:26:06.002
page as far as raising our kids.

00:26:06.092 --> 00:26:13.982
And you know, we may get criticized
for, for being too open or too easy,

00:26:13.982 --> 00:26:19.412
or not having enough structure,
but our kids are all still here.

00:26:22.742 --> 00:26:27.387
Well, that's, that's to my mind,
we're like, well, that's okay.

00:26:27.392 --> 00:26:32.012
We'll just, you know, build something
onto the house and everybody can stay

00:26:32.012 --> 00:26:35.252
here, be a community and blah, blah, blah.

00:26:35.522 --> 00:26:36.002
But

00:26:36.052 --> 00:26:36.262
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

00:26:36.892 --> 00:26:37.942
Suzie Latchford: I have that naturally.

00:26:37.957 --> 00:26:38.902
I, I feel

00:26:39.232 --> 00:26:40.672
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.

00:26:40.672 --> 00:26:41.572
I, I think you're right.

00:26:41.572 --> 00:26:42.622
I think you and Ron both do.

00:26:42.652 --> 00:26:46.072
'cause Ron, you know, I know your
husband and he's also one of these.

00:26:47.557 --> 00:26:49.807
Very flexible lateral thinkers.

00:26:50.077 --> 00:26:52.897
But at the same time, you know, you
guys do have a lot of structure.

00:26:52.897 --> 00:26:54.547
Like, you know, Ron is a construction guy.

00:26:54.547 --> 00:26:54.607
Yeah.

00:26:54.937 --> 00:26:56.827
You can't build a house without structure.

00:26:56.877 --> 00:26:57.147
Exactly.

00:26:57.147 --> 00:26:58.767
You can't run a farm without structure.

00:26:59.062 --> 00:26:59.352
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:26:59.357 --> 00:27:02.397
Rupert Isaacson: And you can't
keep livestock without structure.

00:27:02.497 --> 00:27:05.887
And I, so I often think people who
don't come from those backgrounds

00:27:05.887 --> 00:27:08.347
misunderstand what structure means.

00:27:08.347 --> 00:27:08.737
Right.

00:27:09.067 --> 00:27:14.947
They often think it means
constraints, but actually structure.

00:27:14.947 --> 00:27:17.257
I always feel structures like,
like I'm looking at you now,

00:27:17.797 --> 00:27:20.497
and what I see is Susie, right?

00:27:20.497 --> 00:27:20.587
Mm-hmm.

00:27:21.267 --> 00:27:22.917
But actually there's a structure to Susie.

00:27:22.917 --> 00:27:25.137
There's this skeleton that's inside you.

00:27:25.557 --> 00:27:28.257
There's this nervous system,
which is very structured.

00:27:28.257 --> 00:27:31.857
There's this, you know, pulmon
system, there's all these structures.

00:27:32.097 --> 00:27:35.247
But when I look at you, I'm
not really aware of that.

00:27:35.247 --> 00:27:35.457
Right.

00:27:35.457 --> 00:27:39.777
I'm just more aware of the
personality, the aesthetic, the person.

00:27:40.432 --> 00:27:44.847
Or if I look at a tree, I'm not looking
at the transpiration of that, what's going

00:27:44.847 --> 00:27:46.737
up and down from the roots to the leaves.

00:27:47.447 --> 00:27:50.927
I see tree, but of course there is
structure and I always feel that that's

00:27:50.927 --> 00:27:52.127
where people get structure wrong.

00:27:52.367 --> 00:27:57.227
That they try to make it visible
when it should be invisible.

00:27:57.227 --> 00:27:59.777
And I, I feel that like if you're
living the kind of life that you are

00:27:59.777 --> 00:28:03.107
leading, you know, on a farm like
that, the structures are so inherent.

00:28:03.977 --> 00:28:04.517
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:28:04.577 --> 00:28:05.087
Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean?

00:28:05.087 --> 00:28:05.327
They

00:28:06.497 --> 00:28:07.277
Suzie Latchford: absolutely.

00:28:07.277 --> 00:28:08.657
And it's not nine to five.

00:28:08.657 --> 00:28:12.587
See, and I've struggled, you
know, over the years with.

00:28:13.742 --> 00:28:15.632
Like, I don't have a nine to five job.

00:28:16.352 --> 00:28:23.342
And, and so some, but we've grown
up in a society that says your day

00:28:23.342 --> 00:28:27.392
is supposed to be nine to five, and
you're working from this time to that

00:28:27.392 --> 00:28:31.052
time, and then on those times that
you're not working, you're supposed to

00:28:31.052 --> 00:28:32.282
be doing this, this, this, and this.

00:28:32.282 --> 00:28:32.342
Yeah.

00:28:32.957 --> 00:28:38.462
So that's, you know, as I said,
coming out of a big, big burnout,

00:28:38.492 --> 00:28:45.962
like those aspects of feeling guilty
for, you know, not having the same

00:28:45.962 --> 00:28:50.702
structure that other families have
and our house looks like a barn most

00:28:51.782 --> 00:28:52.742
Rupert Isaacson: of the
time you should see mine.

00:28:52.922 --> 00:28:55.802
That's why I've got this
false thing behind me.

00:28:56.462 --> 00:28:56.822
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:28:56.822 --> 00:29:02.102
And the guilt of, of that and, and living
in an unfinished house and you know,

00:29:03.392 --> 00:29:04.622
Rupert Isaacson: you
have guilt around that.

00:29:05.162 --> 00:29:05.792
Yes.

00:29:06.122 --> 00:29:06.752
Why?

00:29:06.812 --> 00:29:07.472
Why Susie?

00:29:07.472 --> 00:29:12.602
Because, because you, the, the,
the happiness that you give people

00:29:13.022 --> 00:29:16.382
through your farm and your non nine
to five and everything is so tangible.

00:29:16.382 --> 00:29:16.472
It's

00:29:17.042 --> 00:29:17.567
Suzie Latchford: where is

00:29:17.567 --> 00:29:18.087
Rupert Isaacson: the guilt from?

00:29:19.807 --> 00:29:23.192
Suzie Latchford: I think it's
just inherent like not, you know,

00:29:23.192 --> 00:29:24.662
I grew up in a middle class.

00:29:24.662 --> 00:29:30.722
Family, parents were teachers and
different age and time in history.

00:29:30.722 --> 00:29:35.432
And it, it was all about having a
nice house and, and having it be

00:29:35.432 --> 00:29:40.977
clean and, and, extracurricular
activities are scheduled and you

00:29:40.977 --> 00:29:42.627
know, like our life is just like,

00:29:46.677 --> 00:29:48.117
and I'm okay with that.

00:29:48.117 --> 00:29:53.517
I, I think now but it, there is a,
there's a huge amount of acceptance

00:29:54.447 --> 00:29:59.547
that you go through because you're
not, you're not those things

00:30:00.297 --> 00:30:01.857
Rupert Isaacson: That's
so interesting to me.

00:30:01.947 --> 00:30:04.227
You know, it's funny, when I met
you, I never would've thought

00:30:04.227 --> 00:30:07.317
that you'd have been somebody
who suffered that way because

00:30:08.067 --> 00:30:08.247
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:30:08.247 --> 00:30:08.427
You know,

00:30:08.432 --> 00:30:11.782
Rupert Isaacson: when, when you see
people from the outside, you know, I, I,

00:30:11.787 --> 00:30:15.837
I, I came to your farm, I came to your
house, I saw you were doing great work.

00:30:15.837 --> 00:30:17.997
You know, you had a great
relationship, you had great kids.

00:30:18.597 --> 00:30:19.947
The house is beautiful.

00:30:20.067 --> 00:30:23.102
I, you know, I don't expect houses
to not be a little bit messy

00:30:23.132 --> 00:30:26.472
'cause you should see mine if
we live outdoor lives like birth

00:30:26.952 --> 00:30:27.162
Suzie Latchford: all the time.

00:30:27.167 --> 00:30:27.372
And it never

00:30:27.372 --> 00:30:31.332
Rupert Isaacson: would've occurred
to me that you had anything but

00:30:31.332 --> 00:30:33.372
pleasure in that experience.

00:30:33.472 --> 00:30:36.502
Were you always feeling
this guilt, do you think?

00:30:36.502 --> 00:30:37.462
Or did it creep up?

00:30:39.562 --> 00:30:42.412
Suzie Latchford: I think
I've always had it for sure,

00:30:44.092 --> 00:30:45.112
Rupert Isaacson: because I
have, does Ron have it too?

00:30:45.767 --> 00:30:47.542
Suzie Latchford: I have a very Type A mom.

00:30:47.997 --> 00:30:48.287
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:30:49.192 --> 00:30:51.942
Suzie Latchford: Very, very
type A mom and lover to bits.

00:30:51.942 --> 00:30:57.252
And we're so involved in our
lives, both of, both of my parents.

00:30:57.612 --> 00:30:58.992
And always have been.

00:30:59.302 --> 00:31:01.072
But she's very, very organized.

00:31:01.072 --> 00:31:03.112
Very controlled and very structured.

00:31:03.742 --> 00:31:04.402
And does she

00:31:04.402 --> 00:31:06.502
Rupert Isaacson: criticize
you for your wildlife?

00:31:07.462 --> 00:31:08.932
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, a little bit.

00:31:08.932 --> 00:31:09.232
Yeah.

00:31:09.232 --> 00:31:09.742
For sure.

00:31:10.072 --> 00:31:12.202
Rupert Isaacson: Have you challenged
her and say, all right, mom,

00:31:12.832 --> 00:31:15.202
there's a hundred animals outside.

00:31:15.532 --> 00:31:17.752
Tell you what we'll swap for a week.

00:31:18.052 --> 00:31:19.342
I'll do the housework.

00:31:19.852 --> 00:31:22.042
You keep all that going.

00:31:22.162 --> 00:31:24.592
And then at the end of that, let's
have a little talk about structure.

00:31:25.012 --> 00:31:27.442
Suzie Latchford: And I
don't get any more animals.

00:31:27.442 --> 00:31:28.462
You have too many animals.

00:31:33.622 --> 00:31:35.962
Like this year it was
like, I want a Turkey.

00:31:37.582 --> 00:31:38.992
I need Turkey in my life.

00:31:40.732 --> 00:31:43.192
Now we have four turkeys and two peacocks.

00:31:43.617 --> 00:31:43.897
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:31:45.277 --> 00:31:45.937
Suzie Latchford: I'm like, and how

00:31:45.937 --> 00:31:46.177
Rupert Isaacson: do you stop?

00:31:46.182 --> 00:31:48.802
How do you stop the raccoons and
the, and the coyotes getting them,

00:31:49.522 --> 00:31:51.172
Suzie Latchford: The
coyotes have been an issue.

00:31:51.562 --> 00:31:52.012
Yeah.

00:31:52.062 --> 00:31:55.932
But we have more of a
compound now that's fenced.

00:31:56.532 --> 00:31:58.902
Then the, the fences are high enough.

00:31:59.142 --> 00:31:59.262
Yeah.

00:31:59.262 --> 00:32:03.312
And we do big dogs, but their wimps
and are al always with us in the

00:32:03.312 --> 00:32:05.382
house, unless they come out with us.

00:32:05.382 --> 00:32:05.712
But

00:32:06.702 --> 00:32:08.682
Rupert Isaacson: well, the packs
of coyotes will eat them too, so.

00:32:08.682 --> 00:32:08.922
Yeah.

00:32:08.952 --> 00:32:09.252
Yeah.

00:32:09.257 --> 00:32:09.342
They, they are.

00:32:10.662 --> 00:32:10.812
Oh

00:32:10.812 --> 00:32:11.082
Suzie Latchford: yeah.

00:32:11.082 --> 00:32:11.102
Oh yeah.

00:32:11.382 --> 00:32:11.952
They're bad.

00:32:12.162 --> 00:32:12.822
They're especially up where

00:32:12.822 --> 00:32:13.092
Rupert Isaacson: you are.

00:32:13.122 --> 00:32:14.292
'cause you have brush wolves, right.

00:32:14.292 --> 00:32:18.132
You have the coyote wolf hybrids,
which are actually quite a lot bigger.

00:32:18.192 --> 00:32:18.957
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:20.142 --> 00:32:20.202
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:32:20.382 --> 00:32:21.452
But, raccoons.

00:32:21.452 --> 00:32:22.052
I don't know.

00:32:22.052 --> 00:32:25.022
They've never knock on
wood, bothered us too much.

00:32:25.442 --> 00:32:31.532
That might just be because of the dogs and
there's just always gone around here, so,

00:32:32.612 --> 00:32:34.322
Rupert Isaacson: so it's,
it's very interesting to me.

00:32:34.322 --> 00:32:37.832
So you also, you've also just said that
you've just come out of a big burnout.

00:32:37.832 --> 00:32:37.922
Mm-hmm.

00:32:38.667 --> 00:32:41.252
Again, that's intriguing to me
'cause I think that's a bit of an,

00:32:41.882 --> 00:32:45.212
a non-res subject in what we do.

00:32:45.272 --> 00:32:50.882
I myself have gone through various
times of burnout with this because

00:32:51.272 --> 00:32:56.792
what, what we do is just so intense,
you know, between the long hours,

00:32:56.792 --> 00:33:01.622
between the responsibilities with the
livestock, between the responsibilities

00:33:01.622 --> 00:33:04.352
for just keeping people alive mm-hmm.

00:33:04.592 --> 00:33:10.292
With horses, and then on top of that
now to deliver the service and then, you

00:33:10.292 --> 00:33:12.212
know, the financial instability and so on.

00:33:12.932 --> 00:33:14.402
Tell me about this burnout.

00:33:14.462 --> 00:33:16.082
Did it hit you by surprise?

00:33:16.232 --> 00:33:17.252
And what did you do about it?

00:33:19.262 --> 00:33:25.037
Suzie Latchford: Well, it's been going
on for quite some time, and I think I,

00:33:25.382 --> 00:33:27.152
I feel like you just get used to it.

00:33:27.542 --> 00:33:27.632
Mm-hmm.

00:33:27.712 --> 00:33:28.612
You can't stop.

00:33:28.612 --> 00:33:28.852
Right?

00:33:28.852 --> 00:33:32.962
This is the thing, like when,
when you're feeling exhausted and

00:33:32.962 --> 00:33:34.702
you know that you're not right.

00:33:35.182 --> 00:33:38.032
But regardless the amount
of responsibility on your

00:33:38.032 --> 00:33:39.112
shoulder, it's like holding the.

00:33:39.982 --> 00:33:44.812
It's like, you know, there's so
many people responsible that you're

00:33:44.812 --> 00:33:48.862
responsible for, and so many animals
that you're responsible for that.

00:33:48.862 --> 00:33:52.372
It just gets to be so
overwhelming sometimes.

00:33:52.822 --> 00:33:56.602
You know, when you have to manage
staff and you have to pay your

00:33:56.602 --> 00:34:01.252
staff and there's payroll and then,
you know, our animal expenses just

00:34:01.252 --> 00:34:04.642
for hay and feed is 42,000 a year.

00:34:05.812 --> 00:34:13.252
So, and then trying to describe what we
do to get funding, as I said in a box is,

00:34:13.282 --> 00:34:16.012
is really, is really, really challenging.

00:34:16.072 --> 00:34:20.572
Thank goodness for Chet GPT, I've
just become best friends with ai.

00:34:20.577 --> 00:34:20.807
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

00:34:21.747 --> 00:34:23.152
AI really does help with this stuff.

00:34:23.152 --> 00:34:23.692
I agree.

00:34:24.502 --> 00:34:27.382
Suzie Latchford: Oh, for grants, like,
I was like, it's just such a breath of

00:34:27.382 --> 00:34:32.242
fresh air because they just put it in
the box that it needs to go in and then,

00:34:32.872 --> 00:34:36.922
and then, you know, engage the reader.

00:34:37.822 --> 00:34:38.062
That's that.

00:34:38.062 --> 00:34:38.242
I don't

00:34:38.242 --> 00:34:39.502
Rupert Isaacson: consider
that cheating at all.

00:34:39.502 --> 00:34:41.692
It's, it's exactly what
AI is supposed to do.

00:34:41.812 --> 00:34:42.232
Yeah.

00:34:42.237 --> 00:34:42.447
Yeah.

00:34:42.562 --> 00:34:43.762
It's not supposed to write your novel.

00:34:43.762 --> 00:34:45.172
It's supposed to get you a grant.

00:34:45.202 --> 00:34:45.892
Absolutely.

00:34:45.952 --> 00:34:46.312
Yeah.

00:34:46.852 --> 00:34:47.302
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:34:47.452 --> 00:34:55.432
And it's, I would spend probably weeks on
a grant, whereas now I can spend hours.

00:34:55.792 --> 00:34:56.182
Yeah.

00:34:57.142 --> 00:35:03.252
So, but going back to the lead up
to the burnout, it's, it's gradual.

00:35:04.167 --> 00:35:10.077
Until you get to a point where I,
like I was in a bad depression.

00:35:10.077 --> 00:35:14.157
Like I knew something was wrong, but
I didn't know how bad it was until

00:35:14.157 --> 00:35:15.717
I started to feel a little better.

00:35:16.617 --> 00:35:16.707
Okay.

00:35:16.737 --> 00:35:19.227
And this, this is just six weeks ago.

00:35:20.307 --> 00:35:21.277
So, okay.

00:35:22.867 --> 00:35:28.957
And then, yeah, the 42,000, it, it is
to feed your animals, getting the hay

00:35:28.957 --> 00:35:34.417
in, feeding them, you know, getting the
hay out there, getting the, the feed in

00:35:34.417 --> 00:35:40.927
for all of the animals and not having
always enough money for payroll to, to

00:35:40.927 --> 00:35:47.017
have some come in and feed for you, like
on the days that you need it, right?

00:35:47.047 --> 00:35:47.137
Mm-hmm.

00:35:47.377 --> 00:35:53.347
So you do it and it, it just, it just
compacts And it just got to the point.

00:35:53.347 --> 00:35:59.227
And at my ripe old age of 53, like there's
other contributing factors for women

00:35:59.227 --> 00:36:03.167
that, of that age that impact as well.

00:36:03.167 --> 00:36:08.087
And your body is, and your
mental wellness just goes,

00:36:10.307 --> 00:36:14.397
Rupert Isaacson: did it, when
it hit you how did it manifest?

00:36:14.397 --> 00:36:16.017
Like, did you just collapse?

00:36:16.017 --> 00:36:16.917
What was the,

00:36:18.037 --> 00:36:18.187
Suzie Latchford: Then

00:36:18.187 --> 00:36:19.177
Rupert Isaacson: how did
you keep things going?

00:36:19.687 --> 00:36:19.987
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:36:19.987 --> 00:36:22.777
High blood pressure for a
long time, like really bad.

00:36:23.507 --> 00:36:27.437
Anxiety to the point where I'm just
up in flight mode all the time.

00:36:27.797 --> 00:36:31.937
So my central nervous system is like,
Ooh, there's a bear out there constantly.

00:36:32.297 --> 00:36:36.737
Not, which then would
exasperate everything else.

00:36:37.257 --> 00:36:42.837
Not resting properly not giving your
body that time it needs to, or not giving

00:36:42.837 --> 00:36:46.827
your body, not your body, not being
able to, or your mind not being able to,

00:36:47.517 --> 00:36:50.667
to deliver that rest because it's just

00:36:51.507 --> 00:36:51.777
Rupert Isaacson: in.

00:36:51.867 --> 00:36:52.167
Right.

00:36:52.167 --> 00:36:53.487
So how did it manifest?

00:36:53.487 --> 00:36:56.007
Like did you suddenly not
getting outta bed one day?

00:36:56.397 --> 00:36:56.787
Sorry.

00:36:57.207 --> 00:36:57.627
Suzie Latchford: No.

00:36:57.627 --> 00:36:58.167
Cortisol?

00:36:58.167 --> 00:36:58.287
No.

00:36:58.287 --> 00:36:59.607
I always had to get outta bed.

00:36:59.607 --> 00:37:04.497
Like I always had to do it, but it
just made it like, for a while I

00:37:04.497 --> 00:37:06.177
didn't even wanna be around horses.

00:37:07.017 --> 00:37:07.137
Yeah.

00:37:07.142 --> 00:37:09.387
It was like connecting with our horses.

00:37:09.387 --> 00:37:14.007
I was kind of like taking a back
burner on wanting to facilitate.

00:37:14.007 --> 00:37:15.027
Mm-hmm.

00:37:15.078 --> 00:37:19.938
Not facilitate, like all those things that
you loved and enjoyed that are all of a

00:37:19.938 --> 00:37:26.568
sudden you're so terrified because you're
like, where did my love go for that?

00:37:27.528 --> 00:37:29.478
Because it feels like a burden right now.

00:37:31.218 --> 00:37:33.258
Rupert Isaacson: This is so honest
that you're talking about this.

00:37:33.368 --> 00:37:33.878
Okay.

00:37:33.908 --> 00:37:37.298
So do you feel you are out of it?

00:37:37.358 --> 00:37:38.708
Do you feel you're still in it?

00:37:38.738 --> 00:37:42.428
Do you feel, how, how are you,
how are you coping with it?

00:37:42.428 --> 00:37:43.328
How are you dealing with it?

00:37:43.658 --> 00:37:43.868
Suzie Latchford: I am.

00:37:44.723 --> 00:37:46.133
I'm coming out of it.

00:37:46.133 --> 00:37:51.213
So now I'm all of a sudden I'm being
more mindful and going, okay, you need

00:37:51.213 --> 00:37:57.033
to give yourself a break and be nice to
yourself because if you keep going on

00:37:57.033 --> 00:38:00.453
this way you're gonna be good for nothing.

00:38:01.263 --> 00:38:05.313
And I know that I, I still have
a lot of work to do in this life.

00:38:05.313 --> 00:38:05.403
Mm-hmm.

00:38:06.038 --> 00:38:11.373
And I need to have the energy in
order to, to move forward with that.

00:38:11.433 --> 00:38:12.453
'cause I'm not done yet.

00:38:12.453 --> 00:38:17.373
And I feel that intrinsically
and authentically, intuitively.

00:38:17.883 --> 00:38:20.133
Rupert Isaacson: So I generally
feel that, yeah, when we have these,

00:38:20.133 --> 00:38:25.983
these Nadia moments, these, you know,
bottom of the barrel moments, it's

00:38:25.983 --> 00:38:30.153
often actually right before there's
going to be the next transformation

00:38:30.153 --> 00:38:31.773
to the next really good thing.

00:38:31.953 --> 00:38:36.513
I mean, I think we've all gone through
enough of them in our lives to sort of

00:38:36.633 --> 00:38:40.203
know that pattern, but it's, it's very,
very hard to see that when you're in it.

00:38:40.693 --> 00:38:45.583
And as you say, it's so relentless
the, the life that we lead.

00:38:45.853 --> 00:38:48.873
You know, so interesting listening to
you because, you know, this is normally

00:38:48.873 --> 00:38:50.853
what our clients come to us with, right?

00:38:51.453 --> 00:38:51.603
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:38:52.233 --> 00:38:54.393
Rupert Isaacson: I think what
do you find that it's giving you

00:38:54.393 --> 00:38:58.983
actually even more empathy with
the clients because you can really

00:39:00.003 --> 00:39:00.483
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

00:39:02.673 --> 00:39:06.873
It's almost scary 'cause you
can relate so much better.

00:39:07.443 --> 00:39:08.043
So

00:39:08.048 --> 00:39:08.338
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:39:08.343 --> 00:39:08.943
Yeah.

00:39:08.943 --> 00:39:09.993
The vulnerability.

00:39:10.413 --> 00:39:10.533
Yeah.

00:39:10.533 --> 00:39:14.973
Thank you for, thank you for talking
like this because, you know, it, this

00:39:14.973 --> 00:39:18.963
work that we do, it's so predicated
on having a strong personality,

00:39:18.993 --> 00:39:21.003
leadership, all of these things.

00:39:21.003 --> 00:39:25.893
And as you know, I mean it's, it's
predominantly female run our, our world.

00:39:26.103 --> 00:39:29.553
Luckily we've got some great male
men within horse boy world, but you

00:39:29.553 --> 00:39:32.553
know, it's vast majority is female.

00:39:32.553 --> 00:39:36.813
And so one thing I, I really value about
that is that you give, you see a lot of

00:39:36.843 --> 00:39:41.463
really great female leadership and that
knock on effect, not just to girls, but

00:39:41.463 --> 00:39:46.513
also to boys, you know, to see strong
women in these, in these leadership roles.

00:39:46.753 --> 00:39:47.308
But mm-hmm.

00:39:47.803 --> 00:39:51.333
I think it's, it's, it's also difficult
because as you say you know, there

00:39:51.333 --> 00:39:52.413
are certain things that can hit.

00:39:52.413 --> 00:39:55.563
And you were saying just now
at 52, you know, there are

00:39:55.563 --> 00:39:56.883
certain contributing factors.

00:39:57.123 --> 00:40:00.753
So can we talk about that actually
really directly, because I think that

00:40:00.753 --> 00:40:07.713
menopause is something which isn't
talked about enough in our line of work

00:40:07.713 --> 00:40:12.153
because pretty much all the women who
are my colleagues you know, have been

00:40:12.153 --> 00:40:13.593
running these programs for a while.

00:40:13.593 --> 00:40:16.413
They perhaps started them
in their mid thirties.

00:40:16.413 --> 00:40:16.473
Yeah.

00:40:17.313 --> 00:40:22.413
And then right about the time that
they are really hitting their stride.

00:40:23.088 --> 00:40:24.678
Boom, the menopause hits.

00:40:25.218 --> 00:40:25.488
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:40:25.638 --> 00:40:25.938
You know,

00:40:25.968 --> 00:40:30.138
Rupert Isaacson: how does this, I know,
I, I know so many of our listeners and

00:40:30.138 --> 00:40:33.198
viewers will be going, yep, that's me.

00:40:33.198 --> 00:40:33.288
Mm-hmm.

00:40:33.918 --> 00:40:37.613
Tell us about how that
impacts you and the work and,

00:40:38.778 --> 00:40:41.418
Suzie Latchford: well, you
don't know who you are anymore.

00:40:42.168 --> 00:40:46.698
Like, I was a bit of an identity
crisis I found for myself.

00:40:47.238 --> 00:40:52.488
And I know I talked to my doctor about it
and he goes, you don't know how many women

00:40:52.488 --> 00:40:57.978
that have come into my office and said
that they don't know who they are anymore.

00:40:58.908 --> 00:41:00.408
And that's a big one.

00:41:00.408 --> 00:41:03.558
So it's rediscovering
yourself in a different way.

00:41:03.958 --> 00:41:11.428
All of a sudden, like, I'm gonna talk
about periods because for me, my period

00:41:11.428 --> 00:41:15.638
or, or my menstrual cycle each month
was a bit of a navigation tool for me.

00:41:16.378 --> 00:41:16.888
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:41:17.518 --> 00:41:22.858
Suzie Latchford: So I knew it was
like a, it's an ebb and flow, and

00:41:22.858 --> 00:41:29.788
then all that's gone and you can't,
it's like you're lost a little bit.

00:41:29.788 --> 00:41:30.088
You're motherless

00:41:30.153 --> 00:41:30.433
Rupert Isaacson: maybe.

00:41:30.623 --> 00:41:30.913
Yeah.

00:41:31.273 --> 00:41:36.673
Suzie Latchford: Like the moon cycle
or you know, I would know, oh, okay,

00:41:36.673 --> 00:41:40.603
I am PMSing, so this is the next
phase and this is the next phase.

00:41:40.603 --> 00:41:45.463
And you know, you, you get your cycle
and then a couple days later you feel

00:41:45.463 --> 00:41:49.753
this sense of your skin feels better
and your body feels better and your

00:41:49.753 --> 00:41:54.013
cleansing and then, you know, it was
just something to count on, something

00:41:54.013 --> 00:41:57.373
that you knew and sudden it's gone

00:41:57.703 --> 00:41:58.753
Rupert Isaacson: back to structure again.

00:41:58.813 --> 00:41:59.053
Yeah.

00:41:59.053 --> 00:41:59.593
Nature.

00:41:59.653 --> 00:41:59.923
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:42:00.313 --> 00:42:01.543
You're not quite sure.

00:42:04.153 --> 00:42:04.333
Yeah.

00:42:04.333 --> 00:42:07.153
It's just learning a new
way of being, I guess.

00:42:07.513 --> 00:42:10.063
Rupert Isaacson: Is there kind of
grief with that, that of, of sort

00:42:10.063 --> 00:42:11.893
of almost watching an old self die?

00:42:12.383 --> 00:42:12.443
Yeah.

00:42:12.443 --> 00:42:13.943
Before the new self is birthed.

00:42:13.948 --> 00:42:14.188
Yeah.

00:42:14.903 --> 00:42:15.203
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:42:15.803 --> 00:42:17.633
It really, a hundred percent.

00:42:17.633 --> 00:42:22.713
And yeah, those feeling and then the
physical ailments of it, you know, all

00:42:22.713 --> 00:42:27.513
of a sudden you skin is, say you're
your, you know, your, you don't have

00:42:27.513 --> 00:42:32.403
as much muscle or you've lost muscle
and you're weaker and not as resilient.

00:42:32.403 --> 00:42:35.733
And so all of those things that
go along with that as well.

00:42:35.733 --> 00:42:36.213
Did you find

00:42:36.213 --> 00:42:37.688
Rupert Isaacson: that was
a real, a, a real thing?

00:42:37.688 --> 00:42:39.993
Like suddenly you're picking
up the hay bale and thinking,

00:42:40.263 --> 00:42:41.463
whoa, this feels heavier?

00:42:42.183 --> 00:42:42.603
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:42:42.903 --> 00:42:48.123
For me it's my, yeah, the muscle, my, my
muscles and legs and things like that.

00:42:48.123 --> 00:42:53.793
And that, that could be contributing
just also from being exhausted too.

00:42:54.648 --> 00:42:56.978
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

00:42:56.978 --> 00:43:01.408
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

00:43:01.478 --> 00:43:05.748
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:43:05.808 --> 00:43:11.388
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:43:11.983 --> 00:43:18.293
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:43:18.293 --> 00:43:20.963
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:43:20.963 --> 00:43:23.843
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:43:24.183 --> 00:43:27.453
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:43:27.948 --> 00:43:32.898
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:43:33.558 --> 00:43:34.998
It works incredibly well.

00:43:34.998 --> 00:43:36.718
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:43:37.428 --> 00:43:38.178
Check it out.

00:43:38.858 --> 00:43:43.008
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:43:43.018 --> 00:43:46.388
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:43:46.388 --> 00:43:48.138
applied in schools, in homes.

00:43:48.338 --> 00:43:53.328
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:43:53.328 --> 00:43:54.868
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:43:56.223 --> 00:43:57.503
when they're not with you.

00:43:58.013 --> 00:44:01.453
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:44:01.813 --> 00:44:04.433
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:44:04.433 --> 00:44:08.433
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:44:08.463 --> 00:44:12.753
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:44:13.193 --> 00:44:16.533
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:44:16.553 --> 00:44:20.793
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:44:20.993 --> 00:44:25.283
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:44:25.283 --> 00:44:28.583
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:44:28.583 --> 00:44:31.678
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:44:31.918 --> 00:44:36.418
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:44:36.748 --> 00:44:38.398
absolutely gives you this.

00:44:38.458 --> 00:44:39.688
Mm mm Yeah.

00:44:40.528 --> 00:44:41.278
So, yeah.

00:44:41.278 --> 00:44:42.898
What, what, what are your strategies?

00:44:42.898 --> 00:44:44.938
Let's structure them out.

00:44:44.938 --> 00:44:51.958
So, so, so the strategies first
for the hormonal side, because with

00:44:51.958 --> 00:44:55.048
this is coming emotional, right?

00:44:55.168 --> 00:44:56.338
Hormone is emotion.

00:44:57.118 --> 00:44:58.828
And then let's go to the physical.

00:44:58.828 --> 00:45:02.698
I think this is so useful for people
to have a really frank discussion about

00:45:02.698 --> 00:45:06.238
this, because you are not gonna stop, you
know, you're gonna be doing this until

00:45:06.898 --> 00:45:07.168
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:45:07.228 --> 00:45:07.948
Rupert Isaacson: Drop, right?

00:45:08.158 --> 00:45:12.238
So you've got, and I think so many of
our, our listeners who are in the same

00:45:12.238 --> 00:45:13.618
boat, they're like, okay, I'm menopause.

00:45:13.618 --> 00:45:16.288
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm dealing with burnout.

00:45:16.288 --> 00:45:20.758
I'm, but, you know, my, my, my
practice is bigger than it's ever been.

00:45:21.183 --> 00:45:21.603
Mm-hmm.

00:45:21.658 --> 00:45:23.128
This is a measure of success.

00:45:23.728 --> 00:45:24.328
Alright.

00:45:25.138 --> 00:45:26.698
What are my strategies then?

00:45:27.148 --> 00:45:31.248
So let's go to the and I know menopause
is different for everybody, so it's

00:45:31.248 --> 00:45:34.008
a bit like autism, you know, it's
different in every person, right?

00:45:34.008 --> 00:45:34.068
Yeah.

00:45:34.518 --> 00:45:37.948
But what are your strategies emotionally?

00:45:37.948 --> 00:45:41.428
Like what, be beyond
the, the loss of Okay.

00:45:42.148 --> 00:45:45.488
The, the menstrual cycle and,
and identity, but, mm-hmm.

00:45:46.468 --> 00:45:51.208
Or, or at least navigation as
you said, but what are the other

00:45:51.208 --> 00:45:55.828
emotional impacts and how do
you, how do you deal with those?

00:45:59.068 --> 00:45:59.608
Suzie Latchford: Hmm.

00:46:03.508 --> 00:46:11.068
Being aware, like I was aware that
I wasn't right, but it wasn't enough

00:46:11.128 --> 00:46:15.328
almost to, because I still couldn't stop.

00:46:16.678 --> 00:46:16.798
Mm-hmm.

00:46:16.908 --> 00:46:20.718
And then that would exasperate everything.

00:46:22.098 --> 00:46:22.488
But

00:46:24.588 --> 00:46:30.888
for me now being at, you know, coming
out of the burnout at this point, it's

00:46:30.888 --> 00:46:36.948
just being more mindful and, and telling,
like it's retraining your brain really.

00:46:37.358 --> 00:46:44.558
And so, 'cause you can ruminate so much
on stuff and it just gets worse and worse.

00:46:44.558 --> 00:46:52.958
So stopping and being aware of your
thoughts and trying to change that

00:46:52.958 --> 00:46:58.358
negative chatter, but you have to
have the strength to do that too.

00:46:59.168 --> 00:46:59.858
So,

00:47:01.868 --> 00:47:03.188
and I don't know,

00:47:06.248 --> 00:47:06.938
gosh,

00:47:09.188 --> 00:47:16.388
how, I guess you just get, I
got so far down that I had to do

00:47:16.388 --> 00:47:18.428
something to bring myself back up.

00:47:18.428 --> 00:47:22.598
So I, I personally had to try a
different medication for a bit

00:47:23.138 --> 00:47:25.328
that helped my brain sort of.

00:47:25.913 --> 00:47:27.833
Spark again, if you will.

00:47:28.253 --> 00:47:28.343
Mm-hmm.

00:47:28.349 --> 00:47:32.903
And that snapped me out enough to
be able to take that step back.

00:47:32.903 --> 00:47:32.963
Hmm.

00:47:34.103 --> 00:47:39.803
And it, it just, and I, I just be started
becoming more positive and I started

00:47:39.803 --> 00:47:44.603
having those conversations in my brain
that were more positive and more like

00:47:44.603 --> 00:47:52.163
me again, because I'm a, I'm a, I'm a
person that sees the, the glass half full.

00:47:52.613 --> 00:47:52.853
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:47:53.303 --> 00:47:55.973
Suzie Latchford: I was not, I
was seeing the glass half empty.

00:47:56.483 --> 00:47:57.623
Rupert Isaacson: That must
have been quite shocking.

00:47:57.803 --> 00:47:58.133
Yeah, it's

00:47:58.133 --> 00:47:58.283
Suzie Latchford: scary.

00:47:58.973 --> 00:48:00.203
It was very scary.

00:48:00.953 --> 00:48:02.723
And, and so

00:48:05.693 --> 00:48:10.328
yeah, being open to trying
something different, whether it's,

00:48:10.583 --> 00:48:14.273
you know, medication for a bit or

00:48:14.753 --> 00:48:17.123
going to a naturopath,
I don't, I don't know.

00:48:17.393 --> 00:48:22.673
But there becomes this point where
you know that if it, if you don't

00:48:22.673 --> 00:48:29.183
do something, then you're just gonna
go downhill and then nothing's good

00:48:29.633 --> 00:48:31.523
for anybody or anything anymore.

00:48:34.103 --> 00:48:37.253
Rupert Isaacson: Did you also get to a
point where you could reach out to help?

00:48:39.833 --> 00:48:40.373
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

00:48:41.093 --> 00:48:41.873
Indefinitely?

00:48:44.933 --> 00:48:45.503
Yeah.

00:48:47.033 --> 00:48:47.453
Yeah.

00:48:47.453 --> 00:48:47.753
It.

00:48:51.608 --> 00:48:59.288
I had to reach out to my family
doctor and my friends and

00:48:59.288 --> 00:49:02.378
support group and, and family.

00:49:02.378 --> 00:49:06.428
And that had to be a combination
of, of, of a few things.

00:49:09.128 --> 00:49:09.728
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:49:10.238 --> 00:49:16.028
It's very difficult when you've
been leading, you know, for so long.

00:49:16.958 --> 00:49:17.048
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:49:17.048 --> 00:49:17.108
To,

00:49:18.098 --> 00:49:19.868
Rupert Isaacson: because, because
the worry is, you know, I think

00:49:19.868 --> 00:49:24.698
for all of us is when we ask if
someone else will step forward that

00:49:26.828 --> 00:49:28.958
unless we are leading by
example the whole time.

00:49:29.708 --> 00:49:29.858
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

00:49:29.938 --> 00:49:33.598
Rupert Isaacson: You know, people
will lose their own momentum.

00:49:33.778 --> 00:49:35.368
Have you actually found
that that's not true?

00:49:35.368 --> 00:49:36.118
Have you found that

00:49:38.338 --> 00:49:42.508
asking your team to step up more has
actually been galvanizing for them?

00:49:43.738 --> 00:49:44.278
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

00:49:45.178 --> 00:49:49.878
So I, I was speaking about Olivia, who
is basically our manager right now.

00:49:49.878 --> 00:49:57.228
And she, like, she just, one of our
staff went on maternity leave and so

00:49:57.258 --> 00:50:02.628
it was time for, for Liv to step up
and and she took it and ran with it.

00:50:03.108 --> 00:50:06.048
And, you know, I feel
so fortunate to have.

00:50:06.723 --> 00:50:10.113
A young person, like she's just
turning 25, a young person like

00:50:10.113 --> 00:50:16.263
that to have so much like energy
and inspiration and, and hard work.

00:50:16.263 --> 00:50:18.183
And they're hard to find now.

00:50:18.183 --> 00:50:18.243
Yeah.

00:50:18.783 --> 00:50:23.103
And so I, you know,
she's a godsend for me.

00:50:23.643 --> 00:50:32.423
And I don't tell her enough, but I see,
I see her being, she can be successful in

00:50:32.423 --> 00:50:35.503
this in this industry, be because of that.

00:50:35.503 --> 00:50:38.893
And there's just not very many
people out there like that.

00:50:38.893 --> 00:50:39.448
So, yeah.

00:50:40.238 --> 00:50:40.658
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:50:40.928 --> 00:50:41.858
Yeah, it's, it's

00:50:42.908 --> 00:50:43.578
Suzie Latchford: definitely,

00:50:45.973 --> 00:50:48.643
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, and
listening to you talk, you know,

00:50:49.858 --> 00:50:52.903
I, I, I'm starting to talk more
and more about burnout when we

00:50:52.903 --> 00:50:54.703
are doing the horse boy trainings.

00:50:55.093 --> 00:50:55.183
Mm-hmm.

00:50:56.063 --> 00:50:58.373
And telling people, look,
you are gonna burnout.

00:50:59.123 --> 00:51:03.863
In fact, if you think about your 24 hour
cycle, you actually burn out every day.

00:51:04.133 --> 00:51:06.533
There's a point at which
you fall unconscious.

00:51:06.533 --> 00:51:06.833
Right.

00:51:06.893 --> 00:51:11.873
You actually could not stay awake
and working if you tried, and if

00:51:11.873 --> 00:51:15.563
you pushed yourself through that,
it would just lead to insanity.

00:51:16.103 --> 00:51:16.193
Mm-hmm.

00:51:16.463 --> 00:51:19.013
But I, you know, in our sort
of particularly our Protestant

00:51:20.063 --> 00:51:24.683
Anglo-Saxon culture, this idea of
to be the constant workhorse that

00:51:24.683 --> 00:51:27.023
work ethic is so instilled in us.

00:51:27.868 --> 00:51:33.728
That when the inevitable burnouts
happen we are, we feel ashamed,

00:51:33.728 --> 00:51:36.528
we feel it shouldn't be happening.

00:51:36.528 --> 00:51:37.578
We try to fight it.

00:51:38.118 --> 00:51:43.008
And more and more now I'm telling
people expect it and plan for it.

00:51:43.008 --> 00:51:43.068
Yeah.

00:51:43.908 --> 00:51:45.528
And actually learn.

00:51:45.528 --> 00:51:47.088
What is your burnout cycle?

00:51:47.208 --> 00:51:50.418
Like, I think, I think I have a
six weekly burnout cycle myself.

00:51:51.088 --> 00:51:52.468
Because, you know, I travel a lot.

00:51:52.468 --> 00:51:53.698
I'm on planes a lot.

00:51:53.998 --> 00:51:55.288
I'm on jet lag a lot.

00:51:55.288 --> 00:51:58.858
Then when I'm home, you know, there's
large livestock and we've got clients

00:51:58.858 --> 00:52:01.828
and blah, blah, blah, and I got young
kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:52:01.828 --> 00:52:04.528
And, you know, of course
there's going to be burnout.

00:52:05.248 --> 00:52:09.808
And it used to be that I wouldn't,
I wouldn't even allow the topic to

00:52:09.808 --> 00:52:16.708
come up and then I'd notice myself
like hitting the bottle and Yeah.

00:52:17.158 --> 00:52:25.078
Being like really grumpy and not
being nice and people pointing it

00:52:25.078 --> 00:52:28.228
out to me, you know, and me like
not wanting to hear that at all.

00:52:29.308 --> 00:52:32.428
And then at a certain point kind of
going, oh, actually, shit, you're right.

00:52:32.518 --> 00:52:34.978
Okay, what am I gonna do about that?

00:52:35.098 --> 00:52:40.288
And I started doing things
that I never did before.

00:52:40.288 --> 00:52:45.238
So, for example, I, I take
naps I use yoga nidra a lot.

00:52:45.598 --> 00:52:45.658
Yeah.

00:52:45.658 --> 00:52:47.218
Have you come across yoga nidra?

00:52:47.608 --> 00:52:49.948
The guided, it's phenomenal.

00:52:50.668 --> 00:52:50.758
Yeah.

00:52:50.758 --> 00:52:54.388
So guided meditations while you
basically lie with your eyes closed.

00:52:54.388 --> 00:52:54.448
Yeah.

00:52:54.748 --> 00:52:56.818
You don't have to sit in
some uncomfortable pose.

00:52:57.088 --> 00:53:01.148
And basically what you do is you just
go through a body scan of being aware

00:53:01.148 --> 00:53:02.468
of these different parts of your body.

00:53:02.473 --> 00:53:02.833
Mm-hmm.

00:53:03.038 --> 00:53:04.508
And there's no wrong way to do it.

00:53:04.508 --> 00:53:05.828
So if you fall asleep, it's fine.

00:53:06.428 --> 00:53:09.818
And, but it, it's, they call
it nons sleep, deep relaxation.

00:53:09.818 --> 00:53:15.698
It's like a, a, a deep rest
that where 15 minutes can be

00:53:15.698 --> 00:53:17.678
like, you just slept tonight.

00:53:18.368 --> 00:53:27.278
And just beginning to sort of let
myself even just be comfortable with the

00:53:27.278 --> 00:53:32.408
fact that I'm tired meant that I could

00:53:32.798 --> 00:53:33.908
Suzie Latchford: It's not a weakness.

00:53:34.508 --> 00:53:35.378
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

00:53:35.378 --> 00:53:36.098
Exactly.

00:53:36.098 --> 00:53:39.758
But we were all brought up,
you know, to see it as that

00:53:40.268 --> 00:53:46.748
Suzie Latchford: I find, like even with
Ron, you know, like it, if he's feeling

00:53:46.748 --> 00:53:52.718
physically tired or you know, his
back is sore, like I, it's it, for me,

00:53:52.718 --> 00:53:54.968
it's like it affects him so much more.

00:53:54.973 --> 00:53:55.163
Mm.

00:53:56.738 --> 00:54:01.838
I'm assuming it's like a sign of, you
know, weakness and, and it's not, it's

00:54:01.838 --> 00:54:04.088
just your body's telling you something.

00:54:05.273 --> 00:54:05.813
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:54:05.873 --> 00:54:09.743
And if you've gone it as hard physically,
you know, as you and Ron have, you know,

00:54:09.743 --> 00:54:14.633
in the course of say, the last 20 years
or, or so, you know, how can there not

00:54:14.633 --> 00:54:18.143
be, you know, a point at which your
body just says, dude, you know, come on.

00:54:18.693 --> 00:54:20.703
And it's also gotta be hard for a
guy like Ron, because I know him.

00:54:20.703 --> 00:54:22.473
You know, he's, he's,
he's a big strong dude.

00:54:22.563 --> 00:54:24.093
He's very capable.

00:54:24.093 --> 00:54:25.383
He's got all those skills.

00:54:25.383 --> 00:54:28.863
He's used to being the guy with the
skills and the guy with the strength

00:54:28.863 --> 00:54:33.993
and the guy, you know, and to feel a
kind of wobble in that is very scary.

00:54:34.213 --> 00:54:34.353
Yeah.

00:54:34.928 --> 00:54:35.888
Yeah, yeah.

00:54:37.328 --> 00:54:40.508
So as you move forward now mm-hmm.

00:54:40.508 --> 00:54:43.208
Because your, your, your program
is as bigger than it's ever been.

00:54:43.508 --> 00:54:45.938
As you say, you've got a hundred
animals and you've got, you know,

00:54:46.508 --> 00:54:50.018
four turkeys in your life as well as,
you know, all the horses and so on.

00:54:50.358 --> 00:54:50.478
Yeah.

00:54:52.188 --> 00:54:56.718
How are you, how are you reorganizing
everything so that this is now

00:54:56.778 --> 00:54:58.818
sustainable for you personally?

00:55:00.618 --> 00:55:04.368
Suzie Latchford: Definitely
trying now to figure out like,

00:55:05.298 --> 00:55:07.398
how is this gonna run without me?

00:55:07.968 --> 00:55:08.448
Because once Okay.

00:55:08.448 --> 00:55:09.108
Rupert Isaacson: Succession plan.

00:55:09.228 --> 00:55:09.588
Yeah.

00:55:09.978 --> 00:55:14.088
Suzie Latchford: Have to, and you
know, it is a community organization.

00:55:14.088 --> 00:55:18.558
Like we, we are a charity not one
person that's supposed to own it.

00:55:18.883 --> 00:55:19.303
Mm-hmm.

00:55:19.303 --> 00:55:19.423
Right?

00:55:20.418 --> 00:55:21.768
You have a board and.

00:55:22.458 --> 00:55:26.568
We do things a little differently,
but we basically have picked our

00:55:26.568 --> 00:55:31.848
board and we're all on the same
page and, and get things done.

00:55:32.958 --> 00:55:38.688
But preparing for the future as to
I, you know, my goals right now are,

00:55:38.808 --> 00:55:40.698
are to make things more efficient.

00:55:41.158 --> 00:55:44.608
You know, there's still a lot of
things lacking on the farm, like

00:55:44.608 --> 00:55:50.248
just proper fencing and, and proper
ways of making it easier to feed the

00:55:50.248 --> 00:55:54.238
animals and, you know, not having all
the goats eating the pig's food, even

00:55:54.238 --> 00:55:56.248
though it's all the same, but Right.

00:55:56.608 --> 00:55:56.908
Goats are

00:55:59.368 --> 00:56:00.148
Rupert Isaacson: goats Yeah.

00:56:01.288 --> 00:56:01.708
Suzie Latchford: And

00:56:01.888 --> 00:56:04.823
Rupert Isaacson: great social animals,
but they are a pain in the us.

00:56:06.028 --> 00:56:07.378
Suzie Latchford: I, it's,
they're, they're wonderful.

00:56:07.628 --> 00:56:14.378
But when you, when it comes to feeding,
it's mayhem and those things figured out

00:56:14.378 --> 00:56:18.998
and, you know, so it's not frustrating.

00:56:18.998 --> 00:56:24.068
Every day isn't frustrating when it's time
to feed and, and having those going on.

00:56:24.428 --> 00:56:26.888
And so those are, those are my main goals.

00:56:26.888 --> 00:56:33.218
Moving, moving forward and, and
still expanding our programs.

00:56:33.848 --> 00:56:37.988
I don't wanna create a whole, like not
many more new programs or anything.

00:56:37.988 --> 00:56:42.428
I think we have a good core,
core, core things that we're doing

00:56:42.428 --> 00:56:46.278
that are working but becoming
a little more affluent for me.

00:56:46.833 --> 00:56:54.663
I, I would like to get back to doing
a bit more of the communication type

00:56:54.663 --> 00:56:56.553
pieces with the horses from the ground.

00:56:56.553 --> 00:56:56.643
Mm-hmm.

00:56:56.913 --> 00:57:00.903
And just think more about their body
language, learning more about what, what

00:57:00.903 --> 00:57:05.673
they're communicating back to us and
being, to share that a little bit more.

00:57:06.633 --> 00:57:07.653
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.

00:57:07.653 --> 00:57:11.653
You know, one of the things which,
you know, people often assume with

00:57:11.653 --> 00:57:14.903
Horse Boy is that because it's a
mounted program we're spending all

00:57:14.903 --> 00:57:17.843
our time in the saddle and actually,
you know, all the preparation for

00:57:17.843 --> 00:57:19.163
it is on the ground, you know?

00:57:19.493 --> 00:57:19.643
Yeah.

00:57:19.673 --> 00:57:22.943
We are constantly doing groundwork
with our horses so that when we're

00:57:22.943 --> 00:57:27.893
in the saddle with someone else's
kid, we know it's gonna flow, but

00:57:27.923 --> 00:57:32.453
that flow actually comes from time
spent on the ground with the horse

00:57:32.903 --> 00:57:34.913
rather than time spent in the saddle.

00:57:35.513 --> 00:57:41.633
And this is often I think, not
looked at enough in therapy programs.

00:57:41.743 --> 00:57:45.793
If they're ground based, the horse doesn't
get enough exercise, you know, someone

00:57:45.793 --> 00:57:49.303
actually should be riding them and trail
riding them and taking them out in the

00:57:49.303 --> 00:57:51.103
world and giving them an interesting time.

00:57:51.493 --> 00:57:56.368
But that doesn't have to be you, that can
be a, a another staff member, you know?

00:57:56.373 --> 00:57:56.653
Yeah.

00:57:57.223 --> 00:58:00.453
Or they love to jump and they love to
go crazy, but they can be free jumped.

00:58:00.453 --> 00:58:04.263
They can, there's so many ways to,
to do that kind of thing, to give

00:58:04.263 --> 00:58:05.613
them the outlet for that energy.

00:58:05.613 --> 00:58:08.883
And at the same time, the people
that are very riding focused.

00:58:09.513 --> 00:58:11.193
Often don't spend enough
time on the ground.

00:58:11.193 --> 00:58:15.033
So often it seems to be about having a
team where you've got people who have

00:58:15.033 --> 00:58:20.583
their various likes and preferences, and
then you can sort of divide the wellbeing

00:58:20.583 --> 00:58:26.163
of the horse up into those chunks so that
people aren't doing the thing that scares

00:58:26.163 --> 00:58:27.583
them or that they don't really mm-hmm.

00:58:27.583 --> 00:58:30.003
Like to do or bores them or, or whatever.

00:58:30.783 --> 00:58:32.613
So much it is about tribe and team.

00:58:32.613 --> 00:58:37.383
I feel you know, the, having spent
time in Mongolia with actual horse

00:58:37.383 --> 00:58:40.923
tribes, you sort of see how it's
always a big extended family endeavor.

00:58:41.103 --> 00:58:44.823
Horses are complex, particularly
in those climates, and you deal

00:58:44.823 --> 00:58:46.023
with this climate yourself.

00:58:46.473 --> 00:58:50.043
I wanna go back to the winter and
I know winter is, is a great time

00:58:50.043 --> 00:58:53.253
for burnout in Canada when you have
to be outside in it all the time.

00:58:53.253 --> 00:58:57.153
I, I worked as a window cleaner,
as an illegal immigrant in Montreal

00:58:57.963 --> 00:58:59.738
through the winter and, you know, blah.

00:59:00.603 --> 00:59:00.813
Yeah.

00:59:01.263 --> 00:59:02.793
You know, but I was 21.

00:59:02.793 --> 00:59:05.793
I mean, you know, imagine doing
it at, you know, 50 something.

00:59:06.273 --> 00:59:11.853
But how do you keep your horses
and how do you go through

00:59:11.853 --> 00:59:13.173
the winter with your horses?

00:59:14.373 --> 00:59:14.703
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

00:59:14.703 --> 00:59:17.108
So our horses are out 24 7.

00:59:17.673 --> 00:59:21.373
They have shelters in the
field that you would think they

00:59:21.373 --> 00:59:22.783
would use more than they do.

00:59:23.263 --> 00:59:24.223
Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting, isn't it?

00:59:24.223 --> 00:59:24.733
Yeah,

00:59:25.543 --> 00:59:25.813
Suzie Latchford: yeah.

00:59:26.593 --> 00:59:30.163
So they, they'll go in there,
in and out, but it's not always

00:59:30.163 --> 00:59:31.573
because the weather is bad.

00:59:32.353 --> 00:59:39.223
So like, we've just never had, I, I grew
up boarding my horse like I got a horse

00:59:39.223 --> 00:59:43.813
when I was 12 and you know, she was
in a stall, you know, and then turned

00:59:43.813 --> 00:59:47.833
out during the day and then sort of
brought back in and, and that's how I

00:59:48.163 --> 00:59:51.463
just knew horses were just in a stall.

00:59:51.893 --> 00:59:55.403
But when we moved to our property here
and they could finally get horses back

00:59:55.403 --> 00:59:56.873
in my life, we didn't have a barn.

00:59:56.873 --> 01:00:00.023
So of course they had a shelter.

01:00:00.023 --> 01:00:04.343
And I learned from that experience
that they're pretty happy to be

01:00:04.343 --> 01:00:06.113
able to come and go as they please.

01:00:06.653 --> 01:00:12.533
And, you know, we feed, we have
hay available 24 7, so, you know,

01:00:12.563 --> 01:00:15.773
they're not worried about when
their next meal is coming, which

01:00:15.773 --> 01:00:17.273
creates less stress for them.

01:00:17.478 --> 01:00:17.698
Mm.

01:00:18.653 --> 01:00:24.563
And we feel when our horses come in to
do a session or to do some work or for

01:00:24.563 --> 01:00:30.443
a brush or for whatever reason, we feel
that allowing them to go back out and

01:00:30.443 --> 01:00:34.823
mingle with their herd and be a part
of that equine system, if you will, is,

01:00:34.853 --> 01:00:37.313
is the best thing we can do for them.

01:00:38.063 --> 01:00:38.843
Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.

01:00:38.843 --> 01:00:39.683
It's really interesting.

01:00:39.683 --> 01:00:43.913
You know, we obviously in, I,
I've been through all these

01:00:43.913 --> 01:00:45.473
different ways of keeping horses.

01:00:45.503 --> 01:00:49.553
When I was a boy, we kept
our horses out all the time.

01:00:50.483 --> 01:00:53.538
In England, except in the winter
they came in at night, um mm-hmm.

01:00:53.618 --> 01:00:54.923
Because they were hunters.

01:00:54.953 --> 01:00:58.233
They were gonna be clipped, so they
were wearing rugs, but then we'd

01:00:58.233 --> 01:01:00.693
bring them in at night for warmth.

01:01:00.693 --> 01:01:00.753
Yeah.

01:01:00.813 --> 01:01:04.053
But they were outside in their herd
all day, and that was just very normal.

01:01:04.413 --> 01:01:08.398
Then of course, in Texas, well, we
just had a 24 7 outside climate,

01:01:08.428 --> 01:01:09.898
you know, horses needed shade.

01:01:09.898 --> 01:01:13.918
They'd go in to shelters for
the shade, but we, we had them,

01:01:14.008 --> 01:01:16.228
you know, living outside of the
shelters and they loved that.

01:01:16.468 --> 01:01:19.648
Then when I moved to Germany, we
spent the last several years in

01:01:19.648 --> 01:01:20.968
Germany, it was really interesting.

01:01:21.178 --> 01:01:25.708
We had to board the horses, and
I'd always been very kind of, oh

01:01:25.708 --> 01:01:27.933
yes, well, you've gotta keep your
horses out, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:27.938 --> 01:01:31.258
And it was the first time because
we, we couldn't just like show up

01:01:31.258 --> 01:01:35.068
and buy a farm that, I mean, the
kids were very young and so on.

01:01:35.068 --> 01:01:37.798
So we were like, okay,
let's board the horses.

01:01:37.798 --> 01:01:42.268
It'll be easier for us in these
years because we need to give a lot

01:01:42.268 --> 01:01:44.008
of attention to infant children.

01:01:45.058 --> 01:01:50.848
And Germans are people who love
rules and regulations and structure.

01:01:51.208 --> 01:01:54.538
And so the, the summer was
very easy because the horses

01:01:54.538 --> 01:01:55.168
were out most of the time.

01:01:55.168 --> 01:01:57.988
But the winter, they don't put the
horses on the fields because they

01:01:57.988 --> 01:01:59.158
don't want to see a lot of mud.

01:01:59.668 --> 01:02:01.318
I grew up in England,
it's like, yeah, mud.

01:02:01.318 --> 01:02:01.978
I mean, it's just weird.

01:02:02.218 --> 01:02:03.088
We invented mud.

01:02:03.148 --> 01:02:07.448
It's like, you know, you awards for the
Muddiest farm, you know, so, you've got

01:02:07.448 --> 01:02:11.268
those Monty piping things about, you
know, oh, have some nice mud, you know,

01:02:11.688 --> 01:02:13.068
would you like a bit of mud with your mud?

01:02:13.348 --> 01:02:14.008
But.

01:02:14.683 --> 01:02:16.573
Then suddenly with
them, mud's not allowed.

01:02:16.573 --> 01:02:20.953
So what they would do is they would
put the horses out for maybe two hours

01:02:20.953 --> 01:02:23.293
a day in what they called a paddock.

01:02:23.293 --> 01:02:27.853
And the paddock was just like
this sterile area of sand.

01:02:28.333 --> 01:02:30.133
They sure they could stand
out there in a group.

01:02:30.133 --> 01:02:32.443
They didn't even have a free ha thing.

01:02:33.283 --> 01:02:37.153
And I looked at this and kind
of went, what are we gonna do?

01:02:37.153 --> 01:02:43.543
These horses are standing in like 22 hours
a day, then they've just been put out,

01:02:44.143 --> 01:02:48.013
okay, we are working them as well, so
let's shave a couple of hours off there.

01:02:48.013 --> 01:02:48.913
It's not enough.

01:02:49.423 --> 01:02:50.053
What do we do?

01:02:50.263 --> 01:02:53.563
So I thought, okay, this gives me a
lot of compassion for people suddenly

01:02:53.563 --> 01:02:57.613
who are having to keep horses in this
way because they may not have a choice.

01:02:57.613 --> 01:03:00.463
You know, they, they live
in a outskirts of a town.

01:03:00.493 --> 01:03:02.143
That's the only thing available.

01:03:02.503 --> 01:03:04.093
And then you're at the
mercy of the barn owner.

01:03:04.543 --> 01:03:10.313
So we came up with this idea of crazy
time where we spent a lot of time letting

01:03:10.313 --> 01:03:16.823
horses free jump in groups, in herds,
inside covered arenas or open arenas

01:03:16.823 --> 01:03:18.983
with outside with, with better footing.

01:03:19.763 --> 01:03:22.133
And we found that went an awful long way.

01:03:22.133 --> 01:03:26.483
And then we'd like go in the forest in the
day and we'd like ride one, lead two and

01:03:26.483 --> 01:03:31.133
let them like gallop on anything we could
do to like, give them their endorphins

01:03:31.133 --> 01:03:32.753
and give them their social time and give.

01:03:32.903 --> 01:03:34.763
But like we had to put
so much effort into it.

01:03:35.063 --> 01:03:39.533
Then we, then we rented a place
where we could just keep them.

01:03:40.553 --> 01:03:44.063
24 7 outside again with just
shelters exactly as you described.

01:03:44.063 --> 01:03:48.423
And Germany gets a bit of a Canadian
winter not quite as bad, but we certainly

01:03:48.633 --> 01:03:53.673
get quite a few weeks of like deep
ice snow if you're a certain altitude.

01:03:54.333 --> 01:03:57.003
And we found that the horses
of course, just thrived.

01:03:57.033 --> 01:04:01.023
And if you think about the step
in Mongolia, that's exactly

01:04:01.023 --> 01:04:01.893
what you find, isn't it?

01:04:01.893 --> 01:04:05.883
You've got like really hot summers,
but like massively cold winters.

01:04:05.973 --> 01:04:07.593
And this is where the horse comes from.

01:04:07.593 --> 01:04:10.083
This is what horses are
actually adapted to.

01:04:10.083 --> 01:04:10.143
Yeah.

01:04:10.683 --> 01:04:15.363
So it it, it's intriguing to me that you,
you, you've found that actually there in

01:04:15.363 --> 01:04:20.613
Canada, even with the snowy climate, the
horses really are totally okay with this.

01:04:20.613 --> 01:04:20.883
Yeah.

01:04:20.883 --> 01:04:21.693
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:04:22.488 --> 01:04:24.663
Now we do blanket the ones that need it.

01:04:24.753 --> 01:04:25.533
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:04:25.533 --> 01:04:25.953
Yeah.

01:04:26.493 --> 01:04:28.953
Suzie Latchford: But there's a,
you know, we have one Oberon.

01:04:28.953 --> 01:04:34.143
I mean, he's, he's an American
cream draft in a Lucy Cano mix.

01:04:34.473 --> 01:04:35.883
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, that
sounds quite intriguing.

01:04:37.113 --> 01:04:41.163
Suzie Latchford: You know,
like, we've never blanketed him.

01:04:41.163 --> 01:04:41.973
He doesn't need it.

01:04:41.973 --> 01:04:42.753
He doesn't want it.

01:04:44.313 --> 01:04:44.463
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:04:44.463 --> 01:04:45.753
Sometimes they tear the blanket off.

01:04:45.783 --> 01:04:46.143
Yeah.

01:04:46.983 --> 01:04:49.683
Suzie Latchford: We put a rain
sheet on him and he's also

01:04:49.683 --> 01:04:51.963
the, the lead guy out there.

01:04:51.963 --> 01:04:52.323
Right.

01:04:52.623 --> 01:04:58.263
So we put a rain sheet on him and
it freaked the entire herd out.

01:05:00.273 --> 01:05:01.143
I had to take it off.

01:05:01.743 --> 01:05:02.493
Rupert Isaacson: That's funny.

01:05:03.723 --> 01:05:04.053
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:05:04.533 --> 01:05:05.673
They didn't know who he was.

01:05:05.853 --> 01:05:07.593
It was like, it was funny.

01:05:08.433 --> 01:05:08.823
Yeah.

01:05:10.473 --> 01:05:14.583
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you
find that that is a growing thing in

01:05:14.583 --> 01:05:17.733
Canada now that people are actually
trusting a little bit more to nature?

01:05:17.733 --> 01:05:22.063
Because certainly when I was living there,
people were very much about putting the

01:05:22.063 --> 01:05:24.653
horses up in the barns through the winter.

01:05:25.013 --> 01:05:26.213
Is it beginning to change?

01:05:27.443 --> 01:05:31.283
Suzie Latchford: I believe so, and,
and I also, it's also depending on what

01:05:31.283 --> 01:05:34.073
you're doing with your horse and where
you're boarding it, so Absolutely.

01:05:34.823 --> 01:05:39.443
You know, definitely there's boarding
facilities out there where people can,

01:05:40.073 --> 01:05:45.443
you have, you pay extra, but your horse
has a stall or you pay less and it's,

01:05:45.563 --> 01:05:48.083
they're out with other horses 24 7.

01:05:48.083 --> 01:05:49.943
So it just depends on what you're doing.

01:05:51.233 --> 01:05:52.943
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to
be more and more that it's,

01:05:52.943 --> 01:05:54.653
it's about the herd structures.

01:05:55.253 --> 01:05:55.463
Yeah.

01:05:55.463 --> 01:05:58.433
That really brings about the
wellbeing for the horses.

01:05:58.433 --> 01:06:04.623
And as, as much as I do these trainings
going around different countries,

01:06:04.623 --> 01:06:09.843
different places one of the things
I see in the more old school types

01:06:09.843 --> 01:06:16.053
of therapeutic riding center is
lack of equine wellbeing, because

01:06:16.143 --> 01:06:17.763
these herd structures are ignored.

01:06:18.298 --> 01:06:21.183
I, I was actually very
pleasantly surprised.

01:06:21.183 --> 01:06:25.593
I went and did a, a training
earlier this year in Michigan,

01:06:26.403 --> 01:06:27.723
which is sort of, you know, as.

01:06:29.073 --> 01:06:32.193
As Canadian as you can be while being
an American or as American as you can

01:06:32.193 --> 01:06:35.193
be while being a Canadian, there's
an interesting hybrid of people.

01:06:35.193 --> 01:06:38.553
There's like, you guys are kind of
like Canadians, kind of cool, you know?

01:06:38.853 --> 01:06:42.153
But this is a path international center.

01:06:42.153 --> 01:06:45.513
You know, I'm used to the path
international places, having these

01:06:45.573 --> 01:06:48.873
very rigid structures and the horses
are all in stalls all the time,

01:06:48.873 --> 01:06:53.733
and often, frankly, not very happy
and often a bit stiff and arthritic

01:06:53.733 --> 01:06:55.863
and not looked after in that way.

01:06:55.913 --> 01:06:58.673
Despite the fact that there's
often a lot of good infrastructure

01:06:58.673 --> 01:07:00.793
and all these safety protocols.

01:07:01.233 --> 01:07:03.363
But this place is called Renew.

01:07:03.633 --> 01:07:06.813
Had they'd built this barn and
then realized actually the horses

01:07:06.813 --> 01:07:07.833
don't really want to be in here.

01:07:07.953 --> 01:07:12.723
And so they'd just gotten all these really
cool outdoor paddocks with these horses

01:07:12.723 --> 01:07:20.223
all in their different herd structures
and the, even in their climate and the

01:07:20.223 --> 01:07:25.353
resulting equine wellbeing that I was
seeing mentally, emotionally, as well as

01:07:25.353 --> 01:07:29.493
physically was just much more like what
I'd see in a horse boy place, frankly.

01:07:29.493 --> 01:07:29.583
Mm-hmm.

01:07:30.718 --> 01:07:31.138
Mm-hmm.

01:07:31.188 --> 01:07:37.343
Do you, are you, do you help other
people in their getting their

01:07:37.403 --> 01:07:39.653
therapeutic things off the ground?

01:07:39.653 --> 01:07:42.833
Do, do, do you, have you, do you sort
of advise people now sort of a little

01:07:42.833 --> 01:07:44.393
bit on lead structures and that?

01:07:44.698 --> 01:07:44.818
I,

01:07:45.143 --> 01:07:50.483
Suzie Latchford: I haven't yet, but I feel
it's something, in the last year or so,

01:07:50.483 --> 01:07:54.953
I've, I've been thinking more about, you
know what, like I have enough wisdom now.

01:07:54.953 --> 01:08:00.383
I feel that I could be sharing stuff
to, to make it easier for other people

01:08:00.383 --> 01:08:02.123
to try and do something similar.

01:08:03.473 --> 01:08:03.988
Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.

01:08:04.388 --> 01:08:04.748
I agree.

01:08:04.808 --> 01:08:08.333
And, you know, I, I think something
else that, you know, what's come up

01:08:08.333 --> 01:08:11.603
through this conversation, I didn't
expect us to, you know, be talking

01:08:11.603 --> 01:08:15.863
about burnout and menopause and so
on, but this is actually so important.

01:08:16.463 --> 01:08:16.553
Mm-hmm.

01:08:16.743 --> 01:08:21.123
Because if, if you don't have
wellbeing or the horse doesn't have

01:08:21.123 --> 01:08:25.593
wellbeing, how can you possibly
transmit that to somebody else?

01:08:25.593 --> 01:08:25.833
Right.

01:08:26.373 --> 01:08:30.033
Suzie Latchford: Well, and that's why we
started, all of these things were for,

01:08:30.543 --> 01:08:32.613
to help people with their wellbeing.

01:08:33.063 --> 01:08:35.313
And so yeah.

01:08:35.853 --> 01:08:37.953
Rupert Isaacson: It's like
doctor, physician, heal thyself.

01:08:38.193 --> 01:08:38.523
But

01:08:38.583 --> 01:08:38.733
Suzie Latchford: yeah,

01:08:39.243 --> 01:08:41.313
Rupert Isaacson: so I, I feel
that, you know, one of the things

01:08:41.313 --> 01:08:50.163
I'd love to see from you would be
a series of courses or trainings

01:08:51.183 --> 01:08:51.573
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.

01:08:51.843 --> 01:08:54.243
Rupert Isaacson: Really directed
at people running these types

01:08:54.243 --> 01:08:56.253
of businesses who are female.

01:08:56.253 --> 01:08:56.313
Yeah.

01:08:56.703 --> 01:08:57.363
But also male.

01:08:57.363 --> 01:08:59.043
There's a sort of male menopause too.

01:08:59.553 --> 01:09:03.873
You know, you can't really call it that,
but you know what I mean, as, as people

01:09:03.873 --> 01:09:09.093
hit middle age and the, the various,
you know, things that can come up to

01:09:09.093 --> 01:09:12.603
really say having, and I think for that.

01:09:13.173 --> 01:09:17.223
If you were to sort of structure
again that word out some sort of

01:09:18.033 --> 01:09:23.293
course that people could do you
yourself have to have gone through

01:09:23.293 --> 01:09:26.233
it and felt the despair, right?

01:09:26.238 --> 01:09:26.308
Yeah.

01:09:26.728 --> 01:09:27.223
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.

01:09:27.463 --> 01:09:29.023
Rupert Isaacson: Otherwise,
what have you got to offer?

01:09:29.893 --> 01:09:35.113
What do you, when would you say you
arrived at that point of despair?

01:09:37.093 --> 01:09:38.083
Suzie Latchford: Oh, definitely.

01:09:38.143 --> 01:09:38.383
Yep.

01:09:41.653 --> 01:09:41.743
What?

01:09:41.743 --> 01:09:42.433
I was terrified.

01:09:42.433 --> 01:09:43.333
I was terrified.

01:09:43.333 --> 01:09:44.353
Rupert Isaacson: EE exactly.

01:09:44.353 --> 01:09:46.093
Did talk us through that.

01:09:46.093 --> 01:09:50.683
Like did it suddenly catch you by surprise
That was there suddenly like a realization

01:09:51.898 --> 01:10:03.013
and, and what, what did your inner voice
say when, when you hit that realization,

01:10:03.733 --> 01:10:05.263
answer those two things, if you would.

01:10:05.473 --> 01:10:08.893
So first thing is, is at what point
did you notice that you really were

01:10:08.893 --> 01:10:12.103
actually not just unhappy, not just
depressed, not just, you know, tired,

01:10:12.103 --> 01:10:14.803
not just, but actually despairing.

01:10:16.693 --> 01:10:18.223
Let, maybe just go with that one first.

01:10:18.643 --> 01:10:22.243
How at what point did you realize that

01:10:24.823 --> 01:10:26.173
Suzie Latchford: within the last year?

01:10:27.463 --> 01:10:32.483
Just feeling like I was spinning out
of control not making good decisions.

01:10:32.963 --> 01:10:36.953
Just vi like, I felt like
I was vibrating at a level

01:10:37.043 --> 01:10:38.003
Rupert Isaacson: with the people.

01:10:38.003 --> 01:10:40.643
Good decisions with your
livestock generally.

01:10:40.823 --> 01:10:41.333
Like what?

01:10:41.333 --> 01:10:41.393
All

01:10:42.263 --> 01:10:42.923
Suzie Latchford: Everything.

01:10:43.223 --> 01:10:43.733
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:10:44.243 --> 01:10:51.453
Suzie Latchford: Everything in
myself how I was reacting to things.

01:10:51.573 --> 01:10:51.753
Did you

01:10:51.753 --> 01:10:52.653
Rupert Isaacson: find you
were getting kind of mean?

01:10:53.553 --> 01:10:54.483
Suzie Latchford: Oh yeah.

01:10:54.483 --> 01:10:57.303
I was getting mean, I was
not, I did not feel nice.

01:10:57.303 --> 01:10:59.823
No, I wasn't being and did you

01:10:59.823 --> 01:11:02.253
Rupert Isaacson: notice that at the
time or were you just so into it

01:11:02.253 --> 01:11:03.633
that you were kind of blind to it?

01:11:04.173 --> 01:11:07.323
Suzie Latchford: I was aware of
it in questioning it all the time.

01:11:07.323 --> 01:11:09.243
Like, why am I feeling angry?

01:11:09.303 --> 01:11:10.773
This is not me.

01:11:10.773 --> 01:11:10.833
Yeah,

01:11:13.263 --> 01:11:14.103
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

01:11:14.443 --> 01:11:20.983
And then at a certain point you went,
okay, I gotta do something about this.

01:11:21.463 --> 01:11:25.753
I gotta put, I gotta walk the
walk that I'm, walk the talk

01:11:25.753 --> 01:11:28.183
that I'm saying to my clients.

01:11:28.933 --> 01:11:35.173
If you were to give advice to somebody
who's hitting that, and I bet you so many

01:11:35.173 --> 01:11:37.213
people listening to this are hitting that.

01:11:37.218 --> 01:11:37.438
Mm-hmm.

01:11:37.818 --> 01:11:38.238
Mm-hmm.

01:11:38.323 --> 01:11:39.523
And it's so honest of you.

01:11:39.523 --> 01:11:43.093
It's, I I I, I've got so much respect
for you, Susie, for, you know, 'cause

01:11:43.093 --> 01:11:45.883
we could have just had, we could
have just had a big conversation

01:11:45.883 --> 01:11:47.263
about how successful your program is.

01:11:47.263 --> 01:11:53.413
And it is, and, and it, what we mustn't
lose sight of is that through this whole.

01:11:54.208 --> 01:11:55.138
Burnout thing.

01:11:55.168 --> 01:11:56.998
You never like dropped the ball.

01:11:57.223 --> 01:11:59.608
You know, you, you,
you, you kept it going.

01:11:59.608 --> 01:11:59.668
Yeah.

01:12:00.388 --> 01:12:04.443
You know, you, you, you fulfilled your,
your, your obligations and so forth.

01:12:04.743 --> 01:12:07.353
And again, so many of the women
listening I think are in that

01:12:07.353 --> 01:12:08.973
position where they are doing that.

01:12:09.483 --> 01:12:13.353
But okay, so you, you reach that,
that thing you say, okay, shit,

01:12:13.353 --> 01:12:16.653
you know, I'm not myself, I'm
being kind of mean as this not me.

01:12:16.653 --> 01:12:17.403
This is not Susie.

01:12:17.403 --> 01:12:17.853
And you're right.

01:12:17.853 --> 01:12:22.953
I know you having, I hang, not hung out
that long, but the interactions we had,

01:12:22.953 --> 01:12:27.183
this is a very sunny, positive person,
as you said, a glass half full person,

01:12:27.183 --> 01:12:29.973
which is of course why you got the whole
thing off the ground in the first place.

01:12:30.303 --> 01:12:32.013
And of course Ron is that way too.

01:12:32.833 --> 01:12:33.163
Yes.

01:12:33.643 --> 01:12:43.243
But so did I know you said okay, you,
you said okay to stop to this, to that.

01:12:43.573 --> 01:12:46.693
But can you go into just
a little bit more detail?

01:12:46.693 --> 01:12:50.833
If you were going to, if you were
going to give a, like a training

01:12:50.833 --> 01:12:57.433
to another woman in your position a
year from now, what would you say?

01:12:57.433 --> 01:12:58.813
What, like what are the steps?

01:12:59.023 --> 01:13:03.883
Like really what are the steps
to like get through this, survive

01:13:03.883 --> 01:13:05.143
it, and get back to thriving?

01:13:06.458 --> 01:13:06.678
Suzie Latchford: Woo.

01:13:13.633 --> 01:13:18.673
That's a hard one because, you
know, I do think so differently.

01:13:18.723 --> 01:13:19.533
I, I don't.

01:13:22.458 --> 01:13:30.228
If I could go back and change a
few things of how it all started.

01:13:30.228 --> 01:13:32.628
I am, I am in general.

01:13:32.628 --> 01:13:33.048
Let's start

01:13:33.048 --> 01:13:33.318
Rupert Isaacson: there.

01:13:33.318 --> 01:13:33.948
That's perfect.

01:13:34.248 --> 01:13:34.998
Let's start there.

01:13:36.438 --> 01:13:39.618
Suzie Latchford: Having a
bit more of a plan, not being

01:13:39.978 --> 01:13:42.108
running things so much on a whim.

01:13:42.628 --> 01:13:43.828
And, and in that

01:13:44.578 --> 01:13:44.878
Rupert Isaacson: structure,

01:13:46.378 --> 01:13:51.328
Suzie Latchford: yes, there was a
lot of sacrifice and I sacrificed

01:13:51.328 --> 01:13:55.978
a lot, but then I also expected
the people around me to sacrifice

01:13:56.008 --> 01:13:59.008
things too, which is Ron, my family.

01:13:59.458 --> 01:14:05.098
You know, like this just became, this
farm became our lifestyle, which I was

01:14:05.098 --> 01:14:10.738
okay with, but not always, you know,
Ron may not have always been, you know,

01:14:10.738 --> 01:14:20.498
like, it's, it's, he's formed around it
and been a part of it, but it's, I'm not

01:14:20.498 --> 01:14:22.178
even answering your question right now.

01:14:22.688 --> 01:14:24.248
Rupert Isaacson: Well, no, but
this is a free flow though.

01:14:24.248 --> 01:14:26.978
I mean, and I just fired this
at you and I, I think we're

01:14:26.978 --> 01:14:28.628
arriving towards an answer, right?

01:14:29.258 --> 01:14:29.528
Absolutely.

01:14:29.528 --> 01:14:32.198
When you say, let's just back
to your opening statement there,

01:14:32.438 --> 01:14:35.398
you said you would have more of
a, you've had more of a plan.

01:14:36.028 --> 01:14:37.318
What would've been in that plan?

01:14:46.258 --> 01:14:48.628
Suzie Latchford: Well, I didn't
know, like at that point I didn't

01:14:48.628 --> 01:14:53.878
know heel with horses was gonna
be what it is today, like at all.

01:14:55.018 --> 01:14:55.588
And

01:14:56.398 --> 01:14:57.598
Rupert Isaacson: you didn't
know how big it was gonna get.

01:14:58.018 --> 01:15:04.318
Suzie Latchford: No, I didn't, you know,
I, I didn't know that small animals

01:15:04.318 --> 01:15:11.908
were gonna be a apart, I didn't know,
you know, that we would expand on the,

01:15:12.358 --> 01:15:14.788
on the horses as, as much as we have.

01:15:14.788 --> 01:15:19.798
I didn't know what program, I didn't
know we would have a mobile component.

01:15:20.248 --> 01:15:20.818
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yes.

01:15:20.998 --> 01:15:22.738
We haven't talked about
your mobile component.

01:15:22.738 --> 01:15:23.608
I don't talk about that.

01:15:23.608 --> 01:15:23.758
Yeah.

01:15:24.718 --> 01:15:27.208
Suzie Latchford: So those, those
little things are beautiful,

01:15:27.208 --> 01:15:29.188
that, that came out of it.

01:15:29.218 --> 01:15:35.098
But, but maybe going back and
just having somewhat of a plan you

01:15:35.098 --> 01:15:39.478
know, to start with, like, I didn't
know how to get charitable status.

01:15:39.478 --> 01:15:41.278
We didn't know anything.

01:15:41.278 --> 01:15:43.018
We didn't know how to have a board.

01:15:43.978 --> 01:15:45.513
We didn't know it.

01:15:45.518 --> 01:15:48.448
It was just learning all
of those things as we go.

01:15:49.833 --> 01:15:50.183
Right.

01:15:50.188 --> 01:15:57.898
And to be able to go back and do,
you know, what, what are the, what

01:15:57.898 --> 01:16:02.908
would you recommend to someone to,
you know, not do some of those things

01:16:02.908 --> 01:16:07.708
so that you don't arrive in such a
burned out spot, having more money.

01:16:07.713 --> 01:16:07.903
Right.

01:16:08.578 --> 01:16:15.718
Nice Rupert, you know, having a little
bit more of a some finances to, to go

01:16:15.718 --> 01:16:19.058
into something like this with um mm-hmm.

01:16:19.468 --> 01:16:22.138
Would certainly cut down
a lot of the stress.

01:16:22.138 --> 01:16:25.168
But I mean, I don't know it,

01:16:28.108 --> 01:16:33.448
but then at the same time, like, this
is the way that my life went with it.

01:16:33.448 --> 01:16:37.108
It doesn't always have to
be that for someone else.

01:16:37.108 --> 01:16:37.528
Right.

01:16:37.888 --> 01:16:40.898
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:16:41.298 --> 01:16:46.198
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:16:46.198 --> 01:16:48.448
bit about the old master system.

01:16:48.913 --> 01:16:50.223
of dressage training.

01:16:50.263 --> 01:16:58.833
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:16:58.903 --> 01:17:05.183
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:17:05.193 --> 01:17:11.713
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:17:11.763 --> 01:17:14.533
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:17:14.593 --> 01:17:15.333
Intrigued?

01:17:15.533 --> 01:17:16.393
Like to know more?

01:17:17.263 --> 01:17:20.093
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:17:21.793 --> 01:17:23.483
Check out the free introduction course.

01:17:24.043 --> 01:17:24.563
Take it from there.

01:17:25.067 --> 01:17:27.707
I wonder if what you are, what
you are arriving at here is a

01:17:27.707 --> 01:17:29.447
mentorship component, you know?

01:17:29.627 --> 01:17:29.897
Yeah.

01:17:30.647 --> 01:17:34.047
20 years ago when we were sort of
getting into this this was a very

01:17:34.047 --> 01:17:37.377
young field and I think we all got
into it organically, obviously, you

01:17:37.377 --> 01:17:41.667
know, I did, you know, it was never my
intention, but obviously it happened to

01:17:41.667 --> 01:17:43.287
me and then, you know, you go with it.

01:17:43.587 --> 01:17:49.497
So I think people like you and I had
to kind of react and roll with and a

01:17:49.497 --> 01:17:52.077
sort of organic evolutionary process.

01:17:52.497 --> 01:17:52.617
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:17:52.667 --> 01:17:55.967
Rupert Isaacson: Whereas if someone
was to come to us now and say, oh,

01:17:56.027 --> 01:18:01.697
Ru or Susie, I would like to do
this, you know, how should I proceed?

01:18:01.697 --> 01:18:04.997
I think you'd be in a very good position
to say, well, here are the, here's

01:18:04.997 --> 01:18:06.287
here would be some good structures.

01:18:06.557 --> 01:18:08.207
Here's some mistakes that we made.

01:18:08.797 --> 01:18:08.857
Yeah.

01:18:08.857 --> 01:18:12.157
Actually outta these mistakes, some
good things happened, but, you know,

01:18:12.907 --> 01:18:17.647
perhaps you could mitigate some
stress by trying to grow in these.

01:18:18.562 --> 01:18:21.872
Particular ways here are some
pitfalls to avoid, et cetera.

01:18:21.872 --> 01:18:24.932
You know, none of us had that, you know,
coming 'cause who, who really could have

01:18:24.932 --> 01:18:30.362
mentored us because when you and I were
coming in, there was Path International.

01:18:30.362 --> 01:18:33.782
There was tantra up where you were,
they were running these very kind of

01:18:33.962 --> 01:18:36.452
almost sort of military, you know Yeah.

01:18:36.532 --> 01:18:41.692
Types of outfit, which we knew was
not gonna work for our population.

01:18:42.242 --> 01:18:45.722
People that don't follow top down
instruction, you know, people that need

01:18:45.722 --> 01:18:48.212
a much freer follow the child approach.

01:18:48.512 --> 01:18:50.912
So we weren't gonna get
that kind of mentorship.

01:18:51.152 --> 01:18:56.852
Now where I got, where I was so fortunate
was I got, 'cause I, you know, I

01:18:56.852 --> 01:19:00.092
directly reached out for it, but all
the mentorship I got from Temple Grandin

01:19:00.722 --> 01:19:04.502
about how to proceed, and that's of
course where Follow the Child comes from.

01:19:04.502 --> 01:19:08.462
It's not some idea that Rupert
Isaacson had it, it really came

01:19:08.462 --> 01:19:11.042
from mentorship from Temple.

01:19:11.042 --> 01:19:14.792
And actually probably you could argue from
her mother, you know, who, who came up

01:19:14.792 --> 01:19:17.882
with you could actually argue that Horse
Boy Method and Movement method are largely

01:19:17.882 --> 01:19:22.202
driven by the efforts and researchers of
Temple Grandad's mother back in the 1950s.

01:19:22.812 --> 01:19:28.332
But the, the, you know, we, we, we, yeah.

01:19:28.337 --> 01:19:30.252
Our, our field was just very young.

01:19:30.492 --> 01:19:37.122
If you were going to talk to your
younger Susie, go back 20 years,

01:19:37.272 --> 01:19:38.322
what would you tell her to do?

01:19:39.996 --> 01:19:45.786
Suzie Latchford: Well, I would still tell
her to listen to her gut and trust it.

01:19:46.206 --> 01:19:48.751
I, I know that's mm-hmm.

01:19:48.831 --> 01:19:53.496
You know, honor, know as much
about yourself as you can.

01:19:53.976 --> 01:19:56.346
I know that's difficult too,
because you haven't gone through

01:19:56.346 --> 01:20:01.506
a lot of the experiences yet and
be true to your authenticity.

01:20:01.786 --> 01:20:06.736
I mean, I am, I am a born
introvert and learned how to be

01:20:06.736 --> 01:20:11.356
an interesting, I learned how to
be an for a very, very long time.

01:20:11.926 --> 01:20:12.016
Mm-hmm.

01:20:12.096 --> 01:20:17.706
Understanding those two things and
knowing, oh, I'm feeling overstimulated.

01:20:17.706 --> 01:20:17.736
Okay.

01:20:18.216 --> 01:20:25.386
And that's my, that's, that's a cue
to perhaps getting some solitude and,

01:20:25.416 --> 01:20:32.236
and taking that time to breathe and
ground again or whatever you need to do.

01:20:33.226 --> 01:20:38.236
Because being out in the public
all the time, and even if it's on

01:20:38.236 --> 01:20:42.376
a farm and you're managing other
people, you're, you're still on.

01:20:42.706 --> 01:20:47.086
And it's, and when it's at
your own home it's hard to have

01:20:47.086 --> 01:20:48.936
those, boundaries, if you will.

01:20:49.806 --> 01:20:52.776
So I think that's pretty important.

01:20:54.726 --> 01:20:55.236
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:55.506 --> 01:20:59.886
I mean, most of us have to grow our
practices out of our home places.

01:20:59.961 --> 01:21:00.251
It's

01:21:00.951 --> 01:21:01.371
Suzie Latchford: mm-hmm.

01:21:01.751 --> 01:21:06.606
Rupert Isaacson: And, and it's interesting
having done both I've, I've had the

01:21:06.606 --> 01:21:11.526
experience of, you know, my practice
being outta my house out of my farm,

01:21:11.976 --> 01:21:15.816
and also my practice being at another
farm and me having a house away.

01:21:16.146 --> 01:21:18.036
And I'd say there's pros and cons to both.

01:21:18.996 --> 01:21:19.056
Yeah.

01:21:19.956 --> 01:21:20.676
But

01:21:23.256 --> 01:21:28.266
if they are on your farm, as you
say, it's really important that you

01:21:28.266 --> 01:21:32.106
can find some territory of solitude.

01:21:32.736 --> 01:21:32.946
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:21:33.276 --> 01:21:37.716
Rupert Isaacson: Where at least people
would only come in by invitation.

01:21:38.666 --> 01:21:43.286
I think that's important, sort of looking
at the, you know, because it, it is really

01:21:43.286 --> 01:21:47.006
difficult as, you know, like when we were
first starting at new trails, there wasn't

01:21:47.006 --> 01:21:48.536
a bathroom unless he came into the house.

01:21:48.536 --> 01:21:50.156
So it's just something simple like that.

01:21:50.156 --> 01:21:53.216
You, you can't deny someone
the bathroom, you know?

01:21:53.646 --> 01:21:56.226
And then next thing you know, they're
sat they're sat at your kitchen table

01:21:56.226 --> 01:21:58.296
and people are sat there forever.

01:21:58.386 --> 01:21:58.806
Yeah.

01:21:59.256 --> 01:22:01.096
So you are running workshops
out of where you are.

01:22:02.021 --> 01:22:02.441
Mm-hmm.

01:22:03.261 --> 01:22:05.946
And so how do you deal with, how do
you do that when you got burnout?

01:22:06.486 --> 01:22:07.296
Suzie Latchford: Well, exactly.

01:22:07.296 --> 01:22:09.906
I haven't been doing them
very much in the last couple.

01:22:11.616 --> 01:22:13.056
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel
ready to go back to them?

01:22:13.626 --> 01:22:14.106
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

01:22:14.526 --> 01:22:14.916
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:22:15.216 --> 01:22:18.366
Would you do them from your home now
or would you look for another space?

01:22:20.046 --> 01:22:21.606
Suzie Latchford: I don't
have to do them in my home.

01:22:22.236 --> 01:22:22.506
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:22:22.506 --> 01:22:22.566
We

01:22:23.376 --> 01:22:25.656
Suzie Latchford: have
the clubhouse down there.

01:22:25.686 --> 01:22:25.746
You

01:22:25.746 --> 01:22:26.466
Rupert Isaacson: have a clubhouse.

01:22:26.616 --> 01:22:26.826
Okay.

01:22:26.856 --> 01:22:27.096
Yeah,

01:22:27.546 --> 01:22:30.356
Suzie Latchford: that's in front of
the we have a dome, a white riding

01:22:30.356 --> 01:22:35.606
dome with the end walls, and it's
like one of those fabric spaces.

01:22:35.606 --> 01:22:39.951
And then, so the clubhouse
is basically a 50 by, what

01:22:42.056 --> 01:22:47.666
is it, 50, 50 feet long
by about 15 feet wide.

01:22:49.196 --> 01:22:52.226
And so we have a space that we
can use in there, and then we

01:22:52.226 --> 01:22:53.611
have outdoor spaces as well.

01:22:54.041 --> 01:22:54.331
Okay.

01:22:54.926 --> 01:22:57.746
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I,
I, I, I, I hear you on all this.

01:22:57.746 --> 01:23:01.396
It's I think there's a learning
curve that everyone has to go through

01:23:01.996 --> 01:23:07.721
where you do it in a way that perhaps
isn't optimal because you can't.

01:23:09.111 --> 01:23:11.601
Have, you can't wait for
conditions to be perfect.

01:23:11.601 --> 01:23:12.261
You know what I mean?

01:23:12.261 --> 01:23:15.831
It's like, when is the right time to have
a child or when is the right time to start

01:23:15.831 --> 01:23:19.221
a business or it, it's, there's never a
right time, so you just gotta do it and

01:23:19.701 --> 01:23:20.451
Suzie Latchford: yeah, you'll learn.

01:23:20.611 --> 01:23:22.981
Rupert Isaacson: But it might
be more or less stressful.

01:23:22.981 --> 01:23:23.461
Yes.

01:23:23.971 --> 01:23:26.971
It's intriguing to me that you
say you're an introvert that's

01:23:27.181 --> 01:23:28.651
learned how to be an extrovert.

01:23:28.681 --> 01:23:29.671
'cause I'd say I'm the same.

01:23:30.691 --> 01:23:31.141
Suzie Latchford: Oh yes.

01:23:32.586 --> 01:23:35.581
Rupert Isaacson: I, I can, I, you
know, I can absolutely project a very

01:23:35.581 --> 01:23:40.441
confident smokescreen and, and I have to.

01:23:40.501 --> 01:23:44.011
I mean, it's, it's not that
it's just life requires it.

01:23:44.881 --> 01:23:45.151
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:23:45.841 --> 01:23:49.951
Rupert Isaacson: But as
you say, there is a cost.

01:23:50.011 --> 01:23:56.611
And so if you don't try to balance
it out with these periods of

01:23:56.611 --> 01:24:00.241
solitude, you know, weirdly, I find
plane rides really relaxing long.

01:24:01.081 --> 01:24:04.681
I'm often doing long hauls, you know,
between Europe and, and North America.

01:24:05.161 --> 01:24:08.641
And it's like, ah,
eight hours, no talking.

01:24:08.646 --> 01:24:08.846
Suzie Latchford: You're like,

01:24:12.516 --> 01:24:13.981
Rupert Isaacson: it's like I'm good.

01:24:14.581 --> 01:24:14.671
Yeah.

01:24:14.701 --> 01:24:17.401
And I often come off, you know, I get
jet lagged, but I often come off quite

01:24:17.401 --> 01:24:23.851
refreshed spiritually just 'cause
there's been time to go and tell.

01:24:25.296 --> 01:24:26.911
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, yeah.

01:24:27.001 --> 01:24:27.361
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:24:27.361 --> 01:24:30.301
So something that you said,
which I think is quite innovative

01:24:30.401 --> 01:24:32.081
you've got this mobile unit.

01:24:33.596 --> 01:24:37.226
I love that because we used to do a lot
of that in the early years of Horse Boy.

01:24:37.226 --> 01:24:42.506
We would take our animals out to schools
to you know, autism facilities resident.

01:24:42.506 --> 01:24:47.966
We'd even go into the parks in Austin
with our horses and un just with a horse

01:24:47.966 --> 01:24:55.016
trailer unbox and start playing with the
ponies and seeing who wanted to come up or

01:24:55.496 --> 01:25:00.356
you know, and even in Germany, actually,
what I started doing, particularly when

01:25:00.416 --> 01:25:05.036
we were at this boarding facility and
I knew we had, we had people that you

01:25:05.036 --> 01:25:08.036
just could not keep safe around that.

01:25:08.366 --> 01:25:12.956
So I would say to that, to their group
or their parent, meet me in the forest,

01:25:13.106 --> 01:25:15.416
there's a car park like over there.

01:25:15.476 --> 01:25:18.506
I will be there at 11
o'clock with two horses.

01:25:18.781 --> 01:25:19.071
Yeah.

01:25:19.076 --> 01:25:22.466
And learn to use those
environments of public spaces.

01:25:22.796 --> 01:25:27.206
So tell me about your I think not enough
people do this kind of thing and people

01:25:27.206 --> 01:25:28.736
get very stuck on their own properties.

01:25:28.976 --> 01:25:30.386
Tell me about your mobile unit.

01:25:32.156 --> 01:25:36.056
Suzie Latchford: Well, it, it came
about actually quite a few years

01:25:36.056 --> 01:25:41.636
back in a smaller scale where,
you know, we get invited to bring

01:25:41.636 --> 01:25:45.806
animals to the Lavender Festival over
the weekend and blah, blah, blah.

01:25:46.016 --> 01:25:51.536
But we, we wrote a grant and got some
funding and it bought us a little van.

01:25:52.196 --> 01:25:58.466
That we could put the animals in and,
and then paid for us to go out in, into

01:25:58.466 --> 01:26:00.716
some nursing homes in, in our community.

01:26:00.716 --> 01:26:02.036
So that's how it started.

01:26:02.996 --> 01:26:03.236
So nursing

01:26:03.236 --> 01:26:05.156
Rupert Isaacson: homes are where
you tend to do your mobile unit.

01:26:06.146 --> 01:26:06.566
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:26:07.466 --> 01:26:07.856
Yeah.

01:26:07.856 --> 01:26:10.226
So, that's how that began.

01:26:10.286 --> 01:26:15.326
And so it is just, and now, you
know, there we have enough of a

01:26:15.326 --> 01:26:20.816
rapport that sometimes families
will a ask us to come and bring the

01:26:20.816 --> 01:26:22.946
animals for their child's birthday.

01:26:23.336 --> 01:26:27.956
Or we've been, as far as Ottawa
University, where they've had us come

01:26:27.956 --> 01:26:33.336
in and during exams and bring the
animals into the library to give,

01:26:33.396 --> 01:26:34.986
give the students a bit of a break.

01:26:35.106 --> 01:26:38.286
And I might just say, you know,
we've brought a, a piglet bunnies.

01:26:38.286 --> 01:26:38.946
What a great idea.

01:26:38.946 --> 01:26:39.861
Rupert Isaacson: Who
came up with that idea?

01:26:39.966 --> 01:26:40.866
That's a great idea.

01:26:41.406 --> 01:26:42.096
Suzie Latchford: I know.

01:26:42.276 --> 01:26:46.356
Well, they contacted us and we,
they, we did it twice one year.

01:26:46.416 --> 01:26:53.346
And we were at Queen University just
in October, and they had us come in for

01:26:53.346 --> 01:26:56.826
their alumni event in October in the fall.

01:26:57.666 --> 01:27:02.076
And, and again, and, and because
so people are, are realizing that

01:27:03.066 --> 01:27:08.136
that animals are, are helping
people's wellbeing even if it's just.

01:27:09.036 --> 01:27:12.246
Like, a lot of the time they have dogs
walking around the airports and stuff,

01:27:12.246 --> 01:27:14.886
or, or a, or a pig or something like that.

01:27:15.126 --> 01:27:18.876
Just, just to offer some comic
relief and a bit of stress relief.

01:27:18.876 --> 01:27:21.156
So, but it a hundred percent

01:27:21.996 --> 01:27:22.146
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:27:23.016 --> 01:27:25.686
When you going into the
old people's homes mm-hmm.

01:27:25.956 --> 01:27:27.396
How do you, how do you do it?

01:27:28.566 --> 01:27:31.356
Suzie Latchford: In the summertime, like
in the spring and the summer, if they have

01:27:31.356 --> 01:27:33.426
a garden, we'll, we'll do it out there.

01:27:34.336 --> 01:27:39.706
But the last few times, the one
nursing home, we've just, we have

01:27:39.706 --> 01:27:45.016
a little Kon Kon Piglet right now
named Bridget, and she is a star.

01:27:45.886 --> 01:27:48.106
She's the cutest little
thing you can imagine.

01:27:48.586 --> 01:27:54.556
She's like a bull in a China shop,
but she goes, she just walks in

01:27:54.556 --> 01:27:59.356
with everybody and she, like, as
soon as you scratch her, she flops.

01:27:59.566 --> 01:28:03.406
So there's pictures of her just with
the, the residents, like in their

01:28:03.406 --> 01:28:07.366
wheelchairs, just bending over, scratching
her, and we bring little, like, back

01:28:07.366 --> 01:28:11.806
scratchers and stuff so that they're,
they can reach the animals better.

01:28:11.806 --> 01:28:14.606
We bring our goats the bunnies.

01:28:15.776 --> 01:28:20.146
Yeah, we've even we can fit the mini
horses in that little minivan as well.

01:28:20.386 --> 01:28:25.066
We don't do that as often, but
we have brought them to places

01:28:25.066 --> 01:28:27.736
as well, so it's pretty cool.

01:28:28.771 --> 01:28:30.211
Rupert Isaacson: What do
you find is the reaction?

01:28:30.211 --> 01:28:32.281
What, what does it bring
out of people in business?

01:28:32.341 --> 01:28:33.091
Oh, well,

01:28:34.021 --> 01:28:37.501
Suzie Latchford: specifically in
the seniors homes you'll get them,

01:28:37.561 --> 01:28:43.171
like, they'll have memories like
from, and, and it's fantastic.

01:28:43.231 --> 01:28:48.071
Sorry, my dogs because they're actually
talking about, you know, when they were

01:28:48.071 --> 01:28:51.911
younger and if they lived on a farm
and how the animals made them feel.

01:28:51.911 --> 01:28:57.461
And, and it's rekindling like nice
memories and nice feelings for them.

01:28:58.331 --> 01:29:01.211
So that's pretty, it's pretty awesome.

01:29:01.781 --> 01:29:03.041
Rupert Isaacson: Do stories come out?

01:29:04.001 --> 01:29:06.071
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, definitely.

01:29:06.371 --> 01:29:07.391
Rupert Isaacson: Can
you give us an example?

01:29:07.391 --> 01:29:08.741
Does anything spring to mind?

01:29:09.311 --> 01:29:10.151
Suzie Latchford: Oh, jeepers.

01:29:10.151 --> 01:29:12.161
I haven't been doing them as much, so

01:29:15.671 --> 01:29:22.201
I can't think of any specific stories
offhand, but just really just the the

01:29:22.201 --> 01:29:29.641
experiences of like, quite a few times
of, of, you know, they'll be holding the

01:29:29.641 --> 01:29:33.571
bunny and petting the bunny and they'll,
they'll have a bunny story come up, or,

01:29:33.571 --> 01:29:36.661
oh, I used to have bunnies or I used to.

01:29:37.636 --> 01:29:42.436
Live on a farm, and I would, I would
be the ones passed to, you know, feed

01:29:42.436 --> 01:29:47.596
the chickens or get the eggs or, you
know, feed the pigs and, you know, oh,

01:29:47.596 --> 01:29:49.546
we used to have pigs when I grew up.

01:29:50.026 --> 01:29:54.646
And it, it just, it also sparks a lovely
conversation and communication piece

01:29:55.546 --> 01:29:56.536
Rupert Isaacson: where Absolutely.

01:29:57.526 --> 01:29:58.036
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:29:58.756 --> 01:30:01.636
Rupert Isaacson: It's, what I think
it seems to spark is neuroplasticity.

01:30:01.636 --> 01:30:06.706
And, you know, one of the difficulties
with the way we view aging in

01:30:06.706 --> 01:30:13.066
our society is we put old people
in, like old people parking lots.

01:30:13.066 --> 01:30:13.126
Yeah.

01:30:13.786 --> 01:30:18.756
And when these are the people who've
got all the wisdom and you know, in any

01:30:18.756 --> 01:30:23.976
other human system in the world, the
elders are respected, treasured, looked

01:30:23.976 --> 01:30:28.656
after, consulted with, you know, because
they're your repository of a lifetime

01:30:28.656 --> 01:30:30.996
of, of information that you need.

01:30:30.996 --> 01:30:34.836
And here in the west, we just park them.

01:30:35.646 --> 01:30:39.996
And of course when the brain is
part, the body is parked, the brain

01:30:40.116 --> 01:30:45.576
gets parked and the brain starts
to, you know, not do what it should.

01:30:45.996 --> 01:30:49.836
So one of the things which that's why I
was intrigued about if stories come out,

01:30:49.836 --> 01:30:55.716
because I've definitely seen mobile units
at work and I wish there were more people

01:30:55.716 --> 01:30:57.906
in our field doing the mobile units.

01:30:58.536 --> 01:30:59.616
With the small animals.

01:30:59.616 --> 01:30:59.676
Yeah.

01:30:59.856 --> 01:31:03.396
You know, because often stories come
out even with people who seem to

01:31:03.396 --> 01:31:10.356
have retreated into dementia and then
suddenly really lucidly you will get

01:31:10.356 --> 01:31:18.186
a story about, you know, a particular
time in their life that might have

01:31:18.186 --> 01:31:19.716
a real resonance to the family.

01:31:20.826 --> 01:31:21.486
Mm-hmm.

01:31:21.726 --> 01:31:28.476
Maybe this family has lost that type
of communication with that person

01:31:28.836 --> 01:31:34.476
and then suddenly there's, you can
retrieve a bank of memories and stories

01:31:34.476 --> 01:31:36.996
that become part of the family law.

01:31:37.686 --> 01:31:37.986
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:31:37.986 --> 01:31:38.106
And

01:31:38.106 --> 01:31:41.766
Rupert Isaacson: bring that person back
to life in the eyes of the family where

01:31:41.766 --> 01:31:43.176
they might have sort of written them off.

01:31:43.386 --> 01:31:45.516
And then also sometimes healing of trauma.

01:31:45.516 --> 01:31:50.486
There was, I dunno if you listened,
but we did a podcast a few weeks ago

01:31:51.206 --> 01:31:57.626
with my friend Giddy Bergoff, who runs
an amazing program in Germany, and she

01:31:57.626 --> 01:32:02.816
used to actually be a dementia nurse
before got into the whole equine thing.

01:32:02.916 --> 01:32:09.246
And she talks about how the sense
smoking a bunny or scratching a pig

01:32:10.116 --> 01:32:14.336
or even like with a ball of wool
or something sparking memories.

01:32:14.696 --> 01:32:18.626
And some of these memories that
were coming up were from the war.

01:32:19.646 --> 01:32:26.096
And of people who'd really gone through
some pretty terrible things as civilians

01:32:26.306 --> 01:32:29.726
and had had to kind of push them down,
you know, horrible things when the

01:32:29.726 --> 01:32:31.376
Russians invaded, that sort of thing.

01:32:31.706 --> 01:32:32.546
You can imagine.

01:32:33.056 --> 01:32:39.176
And the stories of that coming
up, bringing a kind of a healing

01:32:40.026 --> 01:32:43.446
which maybe they'd sat on
that story for 50 or 60 years.

01:32:43.986 --> 01:32:44.046
Yeah.

01:32:44.146 --> 01:32:50.626
So I'm, I'm a great believer in the
mobile units going up, particularly

01:32:50.866 --> 01:32:52.306
to the very young and the very old.

01:32:52.306 --> 01:32:56.156
But, and then also the same, the same
group they're called Green Care Farm.

01:32:56.156 --> 01:32:57.446
They're in Munster in Germany.

01:32:58.556 --> 01:33:01.466
In the local school, which
was doing movement method.

01:33:01.616 --> 01:33:05.126
Someone made a bomb threat or
in a school shooting threat.

01:33:05.786 --> 01:33:09.056
It was a school that was overwhelmed
with Russian and Ukrainian refugees

01:33:09.116 --> 01:33:10.136
and of course their fighting.

01:33:11.156 --> 01:33:14.096
And this freaks everyone out
and so they brought all of their

01:33:14.096 --> 01:33:20.516
animals into the school and it
completely changed the dynamic.

01:33:21.146 --> 01:33:21.236
Mm-hmm.

01:33:22.586 --> 01:33:26.426
So I often think that that's
actually some of the best work

01:33:26.426 --> 01:33:27.956
that people in our field can do.

01:33:28.166 --> 01:33:32.396
Is that something that you are
looking, you will expand, do you think?

01:33:33.536 --> 01:33:35.246
Suzie Latchford: Yeah, I would love, yeah.

01:33:36.716 --> 01:33:37.976
Anything like that?

01:33:37.976 --> 01:33:38.336
You know.

01:33:39.866 --> 01:33:43.916
The education system is just,
well, in Canada it's struggling.

01:33:47.456 --> 01:33:48.416
Rupert Isaacson: Both show
a place where it isn't.

01:33:48.416 --> 01:33:48.806
Yeah.

01:33:49.026 --> 01:33:51.876
Suzie Latchford: My teach my sisters
are both teachers and my dad's

01:33:51.876 --> 01:33:56.076
a retired teacher and my mom was
in the education system as well.

01:33:56.076 --> 01:33:59.676
So, I just hear from my
sisters how chaotic is it?

01:33:59.676 --> 01:34:00.216
It is.

01:34:00.216 --> 01:34:06.186
And you know, and behaviors and
how they handle them and or how

01:34:06.186 --> 01:34:07.386
they're supposed to handle them.

01:34:07.386 --> 01:34:13.416
And I feel like jeepers, all, you just
bring an animal into the classroom

01:34:13.416 --> 01:34:17.676
and change the tone, like immediately.

01:34:18.516 --> 01:34:18.966
Rupert Isaacson: It does.

01:34:18.966 --> 01:34:21.186
It's like a shamanic effect.

01:34:21.246 --> 01:34:21.306
Yeah.

01:34:21.306 --> 01:34:24.936
It seems to bring out, put everyone
on the top of their game somehow.

01:34:24.966 --> 01:34:25.626
I agree.

01:34:26.206 --> 01:34:30.736
Now of course if you do more mobile unit,
then you have to be more extroverted.

01:34:31.336 --> 01:34:35.716
So is that something that you might
then now having gone through the burnout

01:34:35.716 --> 01:34:38.506
cycle, delegate to another staff member,

01:34:39.376 --> 01:34:40.576
Suzie Latchford: delegate most of that?

01:34:40.576 --> 01:34:40.966
Yes.

01:34:40.966 --> 01:34:46.846
It's usually I'm not usually going and
and heading them, heading them up now, so,

01:34:46.851 --> 01:34:47.081
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:34:48.076 --> 01:34:48.136
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:34:49.456 --> 01:34:53.266
Rupert Isaacson: Is that kind of what
you, your advice would be to people

01:34:53.566 --> 01:35:00.676
hitting that mid career thing with What
we do is just start learning to delegate?

01:35:01.636 --> 01:35:02.266
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

01:35:02.656 --> 01:35:08.016
And that's never been my forte, so,
but yeah, you have to, you have to.

01:35:08.016 --> 01:35:10.206
Now how do you do it?

01:35:12.006 --> 01:35:21.276
Well, I mean, I have, I have Liv or I
have that I, I can do that with, and she

01:35:21.276 --> 01:35:23.406
takes a lot of that off my plate for me.

01:35:23.501 --> 01:35:23.791
Yeah.

01:35:24.051 --> 01:35:30.501
You know, she was a McDonald's manager and
I swear, and Emma, our assistant manager

01:35:30.501 --> 01:35:36.291
is also, was, also worked for McDonald's
as a manager and they got it going on.

01:35:37.551 --> 01:35:40.911
Like they know how to delegate,
they know how to Well, they have

01:35:40.911 --> 01:35:41.571
Rupert Isaacson: a system, right.

01:35:41.571 --> 01:35:44.301
They get given a, a system within
that franchise, don't they?

01:35:44.301 --> 01:35:44.361
Yeah.

01:35:44.631 --> 01:35:47.241
Like you don't have to like figure
out how to run a McDonald's.

01:35:47.241 --> 01:35:49.491
They tell you how to run a McDonald's.

01:35:49.491 --> 01:35:49.671
Yeah.

01:35:49.671 --> 01:35:49.761
And

01:35:50.331 --> 01:35:53.211
Suzie Latchford: they've applied
that elsewhere in their lives now.

01:35:53.901 --> 01:35:53.931
Mm.

01:35:53.931 --> 01:35:58.851
You know, for this position or for,
you know, whatever they're going into.

01:35:58.851 --> 01:36:03.231
I think there's been more, I have
another staff that was also a manager.

01:36:03.976 --> 01:36:04.266
Okay.

01:36:05.031 --> 01:36:06.141
Rupert Isaacson: Is that the golden rule?

01:36:06.141 --> 01:36:09.921
Is, the golden rule is look to the golden
arch when you're hiring your staff.

01:36:10.461 --> 01:36:13.161
Suzie Latchford: They were taught to
organize and, and you know, like I've

01:36:13.251 --> 01:36:17.721
worked in the restaurant business and
serving industry as well and it does

01:36:17.721 --> 01:36:23.991
teach you like, you know, you have to
have a process and you know, you're

01:36:23.991 --> 01:36:25.851
picking up a plate off the table.

01:36:26.631 --> 01:36:31.101
And there's another plate there, or a
glass or something else on another table,

01:36:31.101 --> 01:36:33.801
and you have room to take that too.

01:36:33.801 --> 01:36:34.731
Then you do it.

01:36:35.601 --> 01:36:35.691
Yeah.

01:36:35.721 --> 01:36:36.081
Right.

01:36:36.591 --> 01:36:44.986
And it, it's so yes, having the key people
that are engaged in what we're doing

01:36:45.141 --> 01:36:49.551
and, and love it for the same reasons
you do, which isn't always easy to find.

01:36:49.971 --> 01:36:54.141
Like that's so important
in, in the delegating real.

01:36:55.371 --> 01:36:56.001
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do?

01:36:56.001 --> 01:37:00.291
This is, this is a, an another thing
which I think a lot of us face is okay.

01:37:02.241 --> 01:37:05.301
It is very easy to say, well,
when I was young, we worked harder

01:37:05.301 --> 01:37:06.441
than the current generation.

01:37:06.471 --> 01:37:10.461
And of course I heard the previous
generation to me saying that, but

01:37:11.421 --> 01:37:17.541
I do feel that there's a fragility
and a lower resilience in general

01:37:17.571 --> 01:37:21.681
in the current young person.

01:37:21.681 --> 01:37:25.461
They, they, I, it is something
to do with social media.

01:37:25.461 --> 01:37:31.161
It's something to do with, it really is
feeling that solutions can come really

01:37:31.161 --> 01:37:37.911
fast when actually they, they can't
and you have to, you know, whatever.

01:37:37.911 --> 01:37:43.371
I, I find it, it is definitely
getting harder to find the

01:37:43.371 --> 01:37:46.191
younger people who can do this.

01:37:47.211 --> 01:37:50.481
I mean, McDonald's must be finding this
too, but yet they seem to be thriving.

01:37:51.031 --> 01:37:51.041
Okay.

01:37:52.141 --> 01:37:52.561
Yeah.

01:37:52.561 --> 01:37:55.591
Where do you, and I'm used to thinking
of Canadians as very hardworking

01:37:55.591 --> 01:37:58.171
people because, you know, in a
very hardworking period of my life,

01:37:58.171 --> 01:38:00.151
I was living in Canada and Yeah.

01:38:00.151 --> 01:38:03.541
Surrounded by hardworking Canadians,
you know, like your husband and you.

01:38:03.961 --> 01:38:04.471
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

01:38:04.621 --> 01:38:07.711
Rupert Isaacson: What, what are
you doing in terms of, yeah.

01:38:07.741 --> 01:38:11.881
Trying to find those people
who still have that, that grit.

01:38:13.636 --> 01:38:21.871
Suzie Latchford: We, we haven't actually
looked, they've come, which is so, like,

01:38:21.871 --> 01:38:29.341
as I said, oh, and we've gone through
many, we've gone through many, many staff

01:38:29.341 --> 01:38:35.131
changes, and in nutshell, they're hard to
find and they're hard to keep because you

01:38:35.131 --> 01:38:39.301
know, your pay scale isn't always as high.

01:38:39.301 --> 01:38:43.231
Especially like, I, I'm the
biggest volunteer ever Yeah.

01:38:43.621 --> 01:38:45.031
In this organization.

01:38:45.361 --> 01:38:51.091
People have to be paid and, and, you
know, not always knowing if you can

01:38:51.091 --> 01:38:54.631
afford that within your organization.

01:38:55.261 --> 01:39:01.351
But then now I'm on this train where I'm
just going to write as many grants as I

01:39:01.351 --> 01:39:08.471
can and and then use that as a model for
the, for the years coming, I would always.

01:39:09.326 --> 01:39:13.186
Pass grants to somebody else and not
always, just in the last couple of

01:39:13.186 --> 01:39:15.826
years and we weren't getting enough in.

01:39:15.826 --> 01:39:15.856
Okay.

01:39:16.366 --> 01:39:20.266
So now, you know, I'm, I'm back on that.

01:39:20.716 --> 01:39:21.166
And where does

01:39:21.166 --> 01:39:23.536
Rupert Isaacson: one look for, for
grants in Canada or in Ontario?

01:39:24.856 --> 01:39:28.156
Suzie Latchford: Well, like
we, we have a number that will

01:39:28.156 --> 01:39:29.566
come right from our community.

01:39:30.436 --> 01:39:34.546
So applying for those ones and
getting your, they're not always

01:39:34.546 --> 01:39:43.066
like a huge amount, but, and then
they're, now, now with ai, it's a

01:39:43.066 --> 01:39:47.416
lot easier to find the, the ones that
you couldn't necessarily find before.

01:39:47.416 --> 01:39:49.576
Rupert Isaacson: Are there grants
that come from government in Canada?

01:39:50.176 --> 01:39:52.876
Suzie Latchford: There are grants
that come from government, but we are

01:39:52.876 --> 01:39:58.246
not government funded, so they would
have to be like the, on the Ontario

01:39:58.246 --> 01:40:03.706
Trillium Foundation or the Trillium
Foundation is a big government one.

01:40:04.426 --> 01:40:09.196
That, and there's other ones available
that come up, but depending on

01:40:11.746 --> 01:40:16.186
what kind of organization you
are and whether your mandate fits

01:40:16.186 --> 01:40:17.776
those, those grants or another.

01:40:18.316 --> 01:40:18.706
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:40:19.246 --> 01:40:22.246
But you find that you can
actually fund yourself to a large

01:40:22.246 --> 01:40:23.326
degree through grant writing.

01:40:24.316 --> 01:40:24.436
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:40:25.156 --> 01:40:25.486
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:40:26.896 --> 01:40:27.196
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:40:28.846 --> 01:40:32.236
And, and, and finally, we're
at a point where, you know, we

01:40:32.236 --> 01:40:33.706
could make a business plan now.

01:40:34.486 --> 01:40:34.666
Yes.

01:40:38.296 --> 01:40:42.061
You kind of know will I
might over the winter.

01:40:43.261 --> 01:40:46.831
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I feel, as,
you know, we're sort of approaching

01:40:46.831 --> 01:40:49.111
the, the two hour mark here.

01:40:49.111 --> 01:40:53.251
It, it's really what I love is
that this conversation did not go

01:40:53.611 --> 01:40:56.941
where I expected it to go, but I
went where I think it needs to go.

01:40:57.481 --> 01:40:57.571
Mm-hmm.

01:40:57.811 --> 01:41:00.871
Which is that we have to, we do have to

01:41:03.241 --> 01:41:09.211
realize that we are the client as
well as the, we are the service user

01:41:09.211 --> 01:41:10.681
as well as the service provider.

01:41:11.191 --> 01:41:11.641
Suzie Latchford: That's right.

01:41:13.291 --> 01:41:15.841
Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps,
perhaps the thing about the burnout

01:41:15.841 --> 01:41:17.191
thing is it keeps you honest.

01:41:17.191 --> 01:41:17.461
Right?

01:41:17.461 --> 01:41:22.021
It keeps you from getting into dynamic
that, oh, I am the therapist, I am the

01:41:22.661 --> 01:41:27.371
the one who has it all, you know together,
and you are the one who needs help.

01:41:27.401 --> 01:41:27.611
You know?

01:41:27.761 --> 01:41:29.471
And when you find just like, Nope.

01:41:30.041 --> 01:41:30.696
Yeah know

01:41:33.221 --> 01:41:36.161
I can't imagine it can do anything,
but make it make you better

01:41:36.161 --> 01:41:37.901
at what you do, Susie, because

01:41:38.531 --> 01:41:38.951
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:41:39.461 --> 01:41:41.621
Rupert Isaacson: Clearly, you
know, heal with horses has just.

01:41:42.926 --> 01:41:44.606
Gone from success to success.

01:41:45.426 --> 01:41:45.636
Yeah.

01:41:45.951 --> 01:41:47.466
Suzie Latchford: And we
can't always measure.

01:41:47.556 --> 01:41:53.166
And that's another thing I've had to
come to terms with is I, it's hard not to

01:41:53.166 --> 01:42:01.356
measure success in a society that measures
monetary financial as being successful.

01:42:01.656 --> 01:42:01.716
Yeah.

01:42:01.776 --> 01:42:03.936
Like it's only successful if

01:42:06.036 --> 01:42:10.686
you can pay yourself lots of
money and things like that.

01:42:10.686 --> 01:42:17.256
So for me, it's coming to terms
with starting something that is very

01:42:17.466 --> 01:42:23.346
successful and has helped hundreds
and thousands of people and animals.

01:42:23.796 --> 01:42:30.606
And not to always, I'm okay with it, but
it's like when I see people looking back

01:42:30.606 --> 01:42:35.376
at me, you know how you do that kinda,
or talking to somebody or you've met

01:42:35.376 --> 01:42:37.956
somebody and you kind of like see them.

01:42:37.956 --> 01:42:40.626
Like, what are they seeing when
they're looking back at me?

01:42:41.556 --> 01:42:44.106
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
they see anything other than just

01:42:46.206 --> 01:42:53.646
a self-actualized woman who
has made a great go of doing

01:42:53.646 --> 01:42:54.906
a business that heals people?

01:42:54.906 --> 01:42:58.326
I mean, I, I can't imagine that
anyone looks at you through any kind

01:42:58.326 --> 01:43:03.906
of critical eye for saying, well,
you should be making the same money

01:43:03.906 --> 01:43:05.106
that a lawyer makes or something.

01:43:05.106 --> 01:43:05.346
I,

01:43:06.126 --> 01:43:06.516
Suzie Latchford: yeah,

01:43:06.516 --> 01:43:06.846
Rupert Isaacson: I do.

01:43:06.846 --> 01:43:09.216
Do you really think that people
are judging you like that?

01:43:10.116 --> 01:43:12.066
Suzie Latchford: I don't,
no, not necessarily.

01:43:12.066 --> 01:43:13.566
I guess it's my own judgment.

01:43:13.746 --> 01:43:13.896
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:43:13.926 --> 01:43:14.256
Suzie Latchford: you're right.

01:43:14.796 --> 01:43:15.696
It's my own judgment.

01:43:15.696 --> 01:43:19.836
I would like to be able to contribute
more financially to our home and our,

01:43:20.256 --> 01:43:23.976
but I've just done it in a different way.

01:43:24.636 --> 01:43:27.666
Rupert Isaacson: Well, here is a,
here's a little exercise we could

01:43:27.666 --> 01:43:32.616
go through, because I bet you that
you are not the only person running

01:43:32.616 --> 01:43:36.066
a program who has this feeling.

01:43:36.696 --> 01:43:36.906
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:43:39.576 --> 01:43:42.021
Rupert Isaacson: So bear with me here.

01:43:42.901 --> 01:43:43.191
Okay.

01:43:47.241 --> 01:43:50.616
I know that what I'm about to say is
gonna make you have a knee jerk reaction.

01:43:51.216 --> 01:43:53.916
So I'm not gonna tell you to
not have the kneejerk reaction.

01:43:53.916 --> 01:43:58.206
I just want you to notice that
kneejerk reaction and see if

01:43:58.206 --> 01:44:00.096
you can not stay there too long.

01:44:00.666 --> 01:44:01.116
Right?

01:44:01.296 --> 01:44:06.426
So have it, but then go kind of,
oh, well there's that kneejerk

01:44:06.426 --> 01:44:12.306
reaction that's, you know, part of
my conditioning, but I don't, okay.

01:44:12.426 --> 01:44:13.326
What's my next thought?

01:44:13.416 --> 01:44:14.286
Let's just go.

01:44:14.286 --> 01:44:23.526
So, so what if, and I want all you
people who are listening and watching

01:44:23.526 --> 01:44:25.206
this to perhaps do this with us.

01:44:26.106 --> 01:44:26.766
What if

01:44:29.346 --> 01:44:31.536
enormous financial success

01:44:33.756 --> 01:44:34.656
is about to come

01:44:37.446 --> 01:44:38.196
through?

01:44:39.066 --> 01:44:46.176
Doing what you do or through
something completely unexpected.

01:44:48.846 --> 01:44:56.436
It could come from either and to just
say, I am open to the possibility

01:44:57.966 --> 01:44:59.706
that this could be the case.

01:45:00.756 --> 01:45:00.876
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:45:01.536 --> 01:45:03.516
Rupert Isaacson: And
just try that thought on.

01:45:04.506 --> 01:45:04.776
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:45:05.166 --> 01:45:07.296
Rupert Isaacson: And you don't have
to think, well, how would that be?

01:45:07.626 --> 01:45:08.406
What can I do?

01:45:08.406 --> 01:45:15.456
Or do I need to have some, you know,
online program or, or, so just I'm open

01:45:17.946 --> 01:45:22.896
to a feeling of absolute financial ease

01:45:25.776 --> 01:45:29.166
from whatever source.

01:45:35.766 --> 01:45:41.256
And now we take it to the next level,
which is, does that, do you feel a

01:45:41.256 --> 01:45:46.026
slight sense of discomfort in the base
of your throat as we talk about this

01:45:48.846 --> 01:45:50.106
or in your chest somewhere or,

01:45:51.701 --> 01:45:53.191
Suzie Latchford: yeah,
maybe a little in my

01:45:54.511 --> 01:45:54.551
Rupert Isaacson: approach.

01:45:54.701 --> 01:45:54.991
Yeah.

01:45:55.536 --> 01:45:55.896
Okay.

01:45:55.896 --> 01:45:57.126
That would be normal, right?

01:45:57.696 --> 01:45:57.786
Mm-hmm.

01:45:58.026 --> 01:45:58.086
Okay.

01:45:58.086 --> 01:46:03.276
So I want to now dive into
that discomfort for about.

01:46:04.506 --> 01:46:05.946
Six seconds, it's not much.

01:46:05.946 --> 01:46:06.336
Right?

01:46:06.486 --> 01:46:06.846
Mm-hmm.

01:46:07.086 --> 01:46:12.666
What I want you to do is think, well,
but how on earth can that happen, Rupert?

01:46:13.956 --> 01:46:20.736
How can I resolve my financial quandary

01:46:24.876 --> 01:46:26.556
and still deliver what I do?

01:46:29.166 --> 01:46:34.296
And as you ask that question, I
want you to breathe in through your

01:46:34.296 --> 01:46:39.636
nose and we're gonna hold it till
it gets a little bit uncomfortable.

01:46:41.081 --> 01:46:41.501
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:46:41.641 --> 01:46:45.456
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'll do
something like that with my hand.

01:46:46.146 --> 01:46:46.476
Mm-hmm.

01:46:46.716 --> 01:46:48.696
And I want you to let it go.

01:46:49.086 --> 01:46:50.226
Give it to God.

01:46:51.276 --> 01:46:53.436
We'd like a shout a roar.

01:46:53.436 --> 01:46:54.366
I'll do it along with you.

01:46:55.386 --> 01:46:56.616
'cause it's always a good thing to do.

01:46:57.336 --> 01:46:57.426
Okay.

01:46:57.456 --> 01:47:00.366
So, so sorry listeners, this is
gonna startle you in a moment.

01:47:00.816 --> 01:47:04.866
And then we just give it to God and let
it go and let the universe sort it out.

01:47:04.866 --> 01:47:05.346
All right.

01:47:05.346 --> 01:47:10.356
So first thing, now, feel that
discomfort at the base of your throat.

01:47:10.356 --> 01:47:13.956
Now you're gonna breathe in through the
nose and really hold that question till

01:47:13.956 --> 01:47:15.276
it feels like you kind of want to cry.

01:47:15.276 --> 01:47:15.756
So here we go.

01:47:51.291 --> 01:47:51.581
Okay.

01:47:53.526 --> 01:47:54.696
It's taken care of.

01:47:58.481 --> 01:47:59.496
Suzie Latchford: It's
actually, somebody showed me

01:47:59.496 --> 01:48:02.106
Rupert Isaacson: that one a
while ago and it, it's worked.

01:48:02.106 --> 01:48:03.096
It's really worked.

01:48:04.056 --> 01:48:07.866
Suzie Latchford: It's one thing that
I do believe when I'm feeling like

01:48:09.486 --> 01:48:12.426
unsuccessful or why do I keep doing this?

01:48:12.426 --> 01:48:15.366
Or I just wanna throw in
the white flag, like yeah.

01:48:16.056 --> 01:48:16.386
Or so.

01:48:17.736 --> 01:48:19.206
But I always know that

01:48:21.606 --> 01:48:22.536
the universe

01:48:25.176 --> 01:48:26.346
will provide and

01:48:29.226 --> 01:48:33.636
for whatever reason going through the
difficulties and the challenges are all

01:48:33.636 --> 01:48:36.156
part of it's all part of the work and.

01:48:38.046 --> 01:48:42.186
I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't
have the support from, from Spirit

01:48:42.186 --> 01:48:44.676
or the universe or, or what have you.

01:48:44.736 --> 01:48:50.676
So they, it has provided, I mean,
it's not like we haven't gotten a

01:48:50.676 --> 01:48:55.476
lot of what we need to make something
like this successful when starting

01:48:55.536 --> 01:48:59.286
it on a thin with absolutely no plan.

01:49:01.596 --> 01:49:01.806
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:49:02.646 --> 01:49:04.266
Suzie Latchford: So, but thank you.

01:49:05.076 --> 01:49:05.376
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:49:05.526 --> 01:49:06.366
Well, I'm grateful.

01:49:06.366 --> 01:49:08.136
I'm grateful that we
had this conversation.

01:49:08.136 --> 01:49:12.526
I'm grateful to you not just for the work
you do, but you know, for the, for the,

01:49:15.426 --> 01:49:21.006
for for, for putting a spotlight
on this very, very real

01:49:22.206 --> 01:49:22.776
Suzie Latchford: Well, there's

01:49:23.136 --> 01:49:23.736
Rupert Isaacson: of what we do.

01:49:24.666 --> 01:49:24.756
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:49:24.756 --> 01:49:33.666
A very big human aspect in what we do as
humans and, and like that's so important

01:49:33.666 --> 01:49:35.886
to, to talk about what we did today.

01:49:36.336 --> 01:49:36.816
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it is,

01:49:37.356 --> 01:49:39.066
Suzie Latchford: because
it's not talked about enough.

01:49:39.066 --> 01:49:44.256
It's sometimes only talked about, you
know, the good things and the positive

01:49:44.256 --> 01:49:50.016
things about all the lives you felt change
and bring positivity to, but it does come

01:49:50.016 --> 01:49:56.016
as at an expense to yourself sometimes,
you know, that's real and that's reality.

01:49:58.356 --> 01:50:00.456
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like the
listeners and, and viewers, could

01:50:00.456 --> 01:50:04.626
you, if you, if you're gonna comment
perhaps below, if you say watching

01:50:04.626 --> 01:50:06.966
this on YouTube or so, tell us.

01:50:08.181 --> 01:50:12.111
What your challenges have
been with this work and what

01:50:12.111 --> 01:50:14.871
you've done to mitigate them.

01:50:14.871 --> 01:50:19.611
'cause I think we, we need a
sort of technology bank of this.

01:50:19.611 --> 01:50:20.391
Suzie Latchford: Mm-hmm.

01:50:20.461 --> 01:50:21.661
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, for sure.

01:50:21.661 --> 01:50:25.381
We want this feel to expand.

01:50:25.381 --> 01:50:28.141
It has to, the need
has never been greater.

01:50:28.921 --> 01:50:32.281
So as the new generation come
in, we need to prepare them.

01:50:33.091 --> 01:50:33.241
Suzie Latchford: Yes.

01:50:33.511 --> 01:50:36.091
Rupert Isaacson: So please do,
do what Susie has done and,

01:50:36.091 --> 01:50:38.131
and share your experience.

01:50:38.161 --> 01:50:40.801
Susie, it's been so
brave and honest of you.

01:50:41.011 --> 01:50:42.631
I have so much respect for you.

01:50:43.111 --> 01:50:43.591
Really.

01:50:43.596 --> 01:50:52.381
I, I, I, I, I cannot quite put into
words how humbled I feel by your

01:50:52.381 --> 01:50:55.771
absolute candor here and, and, and yeah.

01:50:55.771 --> 01:50:59.731
The bravery it takes to come on
a, a public forum and really talk

01:51:00.841 --> 01:51:06.191
completely real but from a place
of love, you know, it, it's, I,

01:51:06.191 --> 01:51:07.421
I'm just very grateful to you.

01:51:07.541 --> 01:51:08.111
Thank you.

01:51:08.831 --> 01:51:09.851
Suzie Latchford: Well, thank you, Rupert.

01:51:10.316 --> 01:51:11.951
I'm, I'm glad we could share this.

01:51:12.281 --> 01:51:13.391
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, likewise.

01:51:13.781 --> 01:51:19.451
And I, I hope we can cross paths
also with Ron, you know, perhaps, you

01:51:19.451 --> 01:51:21.041
know, sooner than the next 15 years.

01:51:21.491 --> 01:51:23.081
Maybe we need to do a gig.

01:51:23.081 --> 01:51:27.401
Maybe we need to do a, a, a a clinic or
a workshop or something at yours again.

01:51:28.031 --> 01:51:28.121
Yeah.

01:51:28.351 --> 01:51:30.211
Should, should we, should we
figure that out for next year?

01:51:30.211 --> 01:51:30.391
Maybe.

01:51:31.216 --> 01:51:31.816
Suzie Latchford: Hundred percent.

01:51:31.816 --> 01:51:32.476
I would love that.

01:51:32.596 --> 01:51:34.246
Rupert Isaacson: It's been so
long since I was in Canada.

01:51:34.276 --> 01:51:34.516
Yeah.

01:51:34.516 --> 01:51:34.726
Okay.

01:51:34.726 --> 01:51:35.386
I'd love to.

01:51:37.156 --> 01:51:37.306
Suzie Latchford: Okay.

01:51:37.906 --> 01:51:40.636
Rupert Isaacson: And again, my
friend, just thank you so much.

01:51:41.266 --> 01:51:44.796
Truly, truly, truly you've, you've
actually given me strength by

01:51:44.796 --> 01:51:46.236
talking about this, so thank you.

01:51:46.746 --> 01:51:48.036
Suzie Latchford: Gotten a lot myself.

01:51:48.426 --> 01:51:48.816
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

01:51:50.076 --> 01:51:50.766
Suzie Latchford: From this.

01:51:51.846 --> 01:51:52.296
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:51:52.296 --> 01:51:53.556
I'll let you go and introvert now.

01:51:54.516 --> 01:51:54.906
Okay.

01:51:55.416 --> 01:51:57.006
Oh, before we haven't even gone.

01:51:57.006 --> 01:51:59.976
Your, how do people find you
on the web and all that stuff?

01:52:00.456 --> 01:52:00.546
Oh, yeah.

01:52:00.636 --> 01:52:02.046
Donate and all of that.

01:52:02.496 --> 01:52:02.736
Suzie Latchford: Yeah.

01:52:02.736 --> 01:52:04.206
Heal with horses.ca,

01:52:04.896 --> 01:52:07.146
Rupert Isaacson: heal with horses.ca

01:52:07.746 --> 01:52:08.256
Suzie Latchford: our website.

01:52:09.366 --> 01:52:16.326
We're on Facebook, Instagram what is
our Instagram deal with Horses Farm.

01:52:16.326 --> 01:52:16.836
I think

01:52:17.556 --> 01:52:19.776
Rupert Isaacson: you, like me, you
don't even know your Instagram.

01:52:19.776 --> 01:52:21.096
Is that I'm terrible that way.

01:52:22.236 --> 01:52:23.496
Suzie Latchford: Don't wanna do that part.

01:52:24.036 --> 01:52:27.836
Rupert Isaacson: And is there a donate
button on the on, on the heel with horses?

01:52:28.286 --> 01:52:29.036
Suzie Latchford: There is, yeah.

01:52:29.036 --> 01:52:29.366
All right,

01:52:29.366 --> 01:52:30.656
Rupert Isaacson: lads, you heard that?

01:52:31.256 --> 01:52:32.576
Donate money Please.

01:52:32.576 --> 01:52:34.496
Now to heel with Horses.

01:52:34.616 --> 01:52:38.896
They're doing stellar
work out there in Ontario.

01:52:38.896 --> 01:52:40.336
And design Need

01:52:41.211 --> 01:52:41.631
Suzie Latchford: as need.

01:52:41.636 --> 01:52:42.046
Thank you.

01:52:42.676 --> 01:52:43.126
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:52:43.876 --> 01:52:43.906
Okay.

01:52:43.906 --> 01:52:44.776
Until the next time.

01:52:45.346 --> 01:52:45.706
Suzie Latchford: Yep.

01:52:48.706 --> 01:52:49.066
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.

01:52:49.996 --> 01:52:50.086
Suzie Latchford: Bye.

01:52:50.629 --> 01:52:53.749
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:52:54.289 --> 01:52:59.189
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:52:59.199 --> 01:53:03.369
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01:53:03.369 --> 01:53:05.249
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01:53:05.399 --> 01:53:08.479
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01:53:19.559 --> 01:53:23.079
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01:53:39.684 --> 01:53:43.074
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01:53:46.424 --> 01:53:47.564
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01:53:47.624 --> 01:53:49.304
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01:53:49.484 --> 01:53:54.874
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01:53:54.874 --> 01:53:58.984
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01:53:58.984 --> 01:54:01.794
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

01:54:02.064 --> 01:54:03.684
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

01:54:03.804 --> 01:54:04.134
world.

01:54:04.394 --> 01:54:05.584
Join us for the adventure.