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This file was generated by Descript 

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Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

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Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

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Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

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things.

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Sam: hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 Things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show, "are
we willing to compromise to be

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in a monogamous relationship?"

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Ali, you sent us something to the
group chat a little while ago.

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Uh, we thought it was so good,
we thought we'd get you to

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read it out, if that's okay?

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Ali: Yeah, sure, um, yeah, I just
posted this, in the group chat for

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discussion and, just chatting with
one of my girlfriends, if you have

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the luxury of being single for long
enough and realize you not only enjoy

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your time to yourself but really value
the spare time you do have, do you

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become more selfish or unwilling to
compromise and therefore end up alone?

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Not a bad option, just a different one.

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We were talking about relationships,
and even the most happy ones come

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with a fuck ton of compromise.

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And do you just get to a point
where you can't be bothered and

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don't want to do that anymore?

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Or, do your relationships look drastically
different to a traditional live in

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arrangement, where you live apart, travel
alone, et cetera, to accommodate your own

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individual needs within the relationship?

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Joe: Hmm, I feel like this
is very relevant to the late

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30s, early 40s, single person.

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So Sam, you're our token married guy.

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Uh, so I mean, I think maybe a broader
discussion about how to compromise

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in relationships, given me and Ali
are single, could be good today.

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Um, yeah,

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Sam: I think that's definitely
something worth discussing.

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How to, and whether to, which is part
of this, and how much you need to, which

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is probably the most important question.

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And figuring out that's going
to be different for everybody.

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But I certainly don't think anyone
who's going to be able to escape

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compromise in this life, um, whether
it's with friends or employers, or if

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you, even if you run your own business,
there'll be compromises involved.

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And then, so it becomes a question
of how much we feel our true identity

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is being traded away and when
that becomes unacceptable or not.

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Joe: Ali, you're talking about
girlfriends who've fallen in love

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with being single, like being alone.

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Ali: There's definitely
that element of it.

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Joe: Terrifying thought to me as a single
guy, that there's women in this city

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who just really prefer to be on their

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Ali: own.

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Yeah, it's not an

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Sam: unappealing...

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Joe: Haven't you heard of
bros going their own way?

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Oh God.

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Yeah, I know a couple of guys
who've retired from dating at 40.

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Sam: Yeah, that's men going their own way.

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It's not good.

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It's, I, that's not healthy.

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I want to refrain from judgment,

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Joe: but I'm judging.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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But

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Ali: I was going to say like, there's,
there's the appealing aspect of it,

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but what's to go back to what Sam was
saying, I think, and I was talking

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to somebody about this last night,
the compromising, I think if, if, if,

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if you're compromising your values.

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That's where it's fundamentally
going to fall down.

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If, you know, you can make
compromises about things that are,

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you know, not as important to you
or, yeah, you can work around.

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Because, like you said, you have to
compromise in every interaction, whether

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it's work, school, relationships.

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There's always going to be
an element of compromise.

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But if you feel like you're
compromising your values, that's

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where it's going to fall down.

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Like, you're not going to be able
to navigate that because those are

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so fundamentally hard to shift.

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Sam: Yeah, and sorting out the
difference between what my core

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values are and Whether some of these
other things that I thought were

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core values, they might actually
have been neuroses as it turns out.

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And you know, uh, so unfortunately
I'm not going to be able to hand

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anyone an easy formula here.

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I think it's going to come, a lot
of it's going to come down to, am I

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actually happy with this particular
thing that I think is really important?

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Like how well is that serving me?

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And it may turn out that a thing
you think is essential to you as a

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human being, and I absolutely must
not and cannot compromise on this.

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It may turn out.

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That is actually a piece of
stubbornness in you that would

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be much better to let go of.

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Ali: It certainly can be really flexible
and again, like this discussion we

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were having last night about it, it's
like, you know, in safe, and we use

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the example of someone, you know,
with a sugar daddy or a sugar mama.

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In that you may not, like in a, in a, the
context where it's an equal partnership,

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there are certain things you are not
willing to compromise on, but, you know,

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and, and the example I used was like,
I don't want to pick up after a man,

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like, I don't want to pick up, but like,

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Sam: No one, no man
should be expecting that.

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Ali: No, but.

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If he's like a billionaire,
sure, will I pick up?

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Sam: Maybe we can talk.

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Ali: Yeah, I was like, well, maybe I
will pick up your dirty underwear off

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the floor, because you're a billionaire.

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Really?

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Joe: What's, what's the

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Ali: logic there?

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So you, you, you, that your values
can potentially be compromised,

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because the benefit, outweighs the

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Joe: compromise.

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So you'd take cash, like...

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Money to

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Ali: be some kind of...

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So the problem is capitalism
rather than actually...

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Yeah, that's what I was about to say.

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There's a throwback to a lot of women
who are just like, I'm exhausted, I

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don't want to work, I just want the
sugar daddy, where's my sugar daddy?

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I can totally, and the problem is
not so much a reverse back to the

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values of back in the day where
women were, you know, kept women.

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It's as...

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from that dynamic, they're
actually just seeking that because

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they're exhausted and burnt out.

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And that's a problem from capitalism.

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Yeah.

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And

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Sam: it's not like it's necessarily
a closely held aspiration that like

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they've arrived at after much thought.

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Ali: Well, for most women,
it is like, yeah, which is

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Sam: fine.

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But it might often just be a state of,
yeah, I'm, I'm ready to throw my hands up.

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And just declare work to be a hoax.

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Ali: And I just want to be taken care of.

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Sam: Yeah.

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And I can fully understand wanting
to do that for a month or two.

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I think, I think most, most people would
probably be ready to stick their head up.

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You know, at least pick up a part time
job after that length of time, like you've

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had a little time off, you know, but

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Ali: how am I going to pick up
a part time job if I'm traveling

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around the world on yachts?

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Cause my billionaire sugar daddy, that's

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Sam: exactly, that's exactly right.

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But also the other question that was
raised there at the end is like, or is

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it very different now with maybe people
living separately, et cetera, et cetera.

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And certainly that was a thing that was
more possible to do 20 or 30 years ago.

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because the price of housing.

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And I knew couples that were like
living in separate residences and

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not, you know, grand or large, not
even like average size family home

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per person, cause that's ridiculous.

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But you had your own

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Ali: unit or apartment.

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Sam: You had your own place
and that it worked quite well.

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And I remember the friend of a, sorry,
the mother of a friend saying to me

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years ago, and you know, she seemed
middle aged to me then, but she was

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probably my age and was saying to me,
Oh, we were talking about relationships.

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she ventured an explanation
for why she hadn't repartnered.

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It was in context.

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She said, yeah, I've met many
fine men, and loved one or two

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of them, but I just, I just found
myself unwilling or unable to.

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Even to say to them, Hey, move in.

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I just was not, was not ready.

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I didn't want to, and it wasn't like
any of them had necessarily placed

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any hugely onerous expectations on me.

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I just didn't want to compromise at all.

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I found myself just, I didn't want to,

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Ali: I feel the older I'm getting
and the more I date, the more that's

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becoming very solidified and it would

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Sam: really...

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She said that I'm stuck in
my ways and I feel like it's

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going to be hard work and like

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Ali: maybe 10 years ago it would have
been a different situation but now

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Joe: I'm coming up on eight years
without having lived with it.

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Girlfriend.

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Sam: Maybe you're unwilling
to compromise too.

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Joe: Well, that's what I was
going to say and I think I am.

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Uh, I want to be able to
watch Test Cricket for seven

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hours, five days in a row.

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That's not up for negotiation.

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Yeah.

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For example, that's just one example.

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Yeah.

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I mean, to miss my footy team playing
footy to go to the fucking opera.

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So,

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Sam: that is a spurious
example, if ever there was,

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Joe: but, what's completely spurious
is what Ali's talking about with

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billionaires and sugar daddies.

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It's just a way of framing the discussion.

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No, no, but for her and her friends
having real relationship challenges

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and trying to work out how to build
a, you know, a structure that works.

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This stuff about, I'm billionaire's
underwear is a complete distraction.

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Oh

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Ali: yeah, like, I mean, it's
complete fantasy from, like

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Joe: an extreme case of, yeah.

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Why do you say that?

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Like, I find it depressing that...

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That women are now saying, oh, I'd
rather not work and be a housewife

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Sam: or have a sugar daddy.

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Joe: Well, I think what they're
And now you want to go, what,

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back to picking up underwear?

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It's gross.

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Like, don't even joke about it.

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Sam: Well, I personally, I think
it's demeaning to both parties, but

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Joe, I'd be, there's, He wouldn't

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Joe: respect that guy.

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He wouldn't respect you.

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No, but that's not the point.

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He wouldn't want to date you.

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He wouldn't want to take you for dinner

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Ali: if you're picking up his underwear.

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The problem is capitalism.

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It's the problem of feeling overworked
and being spread too thin and that's,

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it's merely a symptom of that.

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It's not that people are desperate
to have that sort of power and wealth

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inequality within a relationship.

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They're not.

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No one actually wants that.

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They just, want a bit of a holiday.

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Sam: That's right.

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And that's right.

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And in distorted times, people will
contemplate distorted arrangements.

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Joe: That's what I'm saying.

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We need to hold our integrity.

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Sam: I agree.

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I agree.

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But can I say, like, I think that if a
person's self worth was not bound up with

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their job to the degree that it is, then
this would be a different conversation.

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So like.

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I think often one of the biggest
areas where couples will struggle

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is with work life balance and that
a lot of relationship problems,

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um, come not so much from personal
incompatibility, but a lack of time

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and energy to work properly, just like
you would in therapy, systematically

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carefully work through, various

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bottlenecks, distractions,
dilemmas, resentments, all the

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things that just naturally occur.

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And all of those things have to be
given quite a lot of time and space

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and patience to be dealt with properly.

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If you want to get to a good place and
falling in love and then having the good

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place for six or 12 months is easier
than get getting to this other thing.

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And so I don't, don't
begrudge anyone their choices.

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But if, if we're being told that
like, your job is your be all

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and end all, that's who you are.

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And that's what the sisterhood fought
for and go in there and be an okay admin

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person and let that fulfill your life.

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And Oh, by the way, you're going
to feel exhausted at the end

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of every day and you'll have to
negotiate somehow this state of

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emotional exhaustion with a partner.

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Ali: Exactly.

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And yeah, you're going to
be like, who's picking up.

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You know, the work around the house,
who's picking up the underwear, who's

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going to cook the dinner, who's even

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Sam: going to decide what
we're having for dinner.

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Ali: Exactly.

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And like that, that level of exhaustion
I've certainly felt like in living

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in arrangements where it just.

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You become resentful and a nag,
and I don't want Even small things

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just turn into huge problems.

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Yeah, and those, you know, arguing about
who hasn't done the dishes, it's the

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bigger problem of feeling like I'm not
feeling like you're pulling your weight.

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I feel like I have to think
about every single decision.

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Yeah, and

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Sam: this other person doesn't
understand how much pressure I'm

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under at work, blah, blah, blah.

00:10:52.033 --> 00:10:52.543
Ali: Yeah, exactly.

00:10:52.553 --> 00:10:53.773
Yeah, and those

00:10:53.773 --> 00:10:58.925
Joe: resentments and I, these are
the conditions, and Capitalism, which

00:10:59.355 --> 00:11:03.175
becomes immediately irrelevant because
it's like saying, oh the problem

00:11:03.175 --> 00:11:04.925
on earth is that we breathe oxygen.

00:11:04.995 --> 00:11:06.635
It's like, that's not changing.

00:11:06.755 --> 00:11:07.785
So they're the conditions.

00:11:07.795 --> 00:11:12.255
And the happy, healthy couples I
see actually both have really good

00:11:12.255 --> 00:11:16.415
careers, busy careers, and like, the
ones that I go, wow, you guys are

00:11:16.415 --> 00:11:20.445
making it work, are busy as fuck with
work and they have high level, high

00:11:20.445 --> 00:11:22.685
stress jobs and they make it work.

00:11:22.725 --> 00:11:24.675
I'm miles away from that.

00:11:26.005 --> 00:11:28.685
Sam: Okay, look, if you're both home
unemployed around each other all the

00:11:28.685 --> 00:11:29.225
time, that's going to be an issue too.

00:11:29.255 --> 00:11:29.485
How many

00:11:30.225 --> 00:11:33.385
Joe: go to work for both parties have
been the same since about the 70s?

00:11:33.425 --> 00:11:37.365
So none of this is super relevant
or new to the 21st century.

00:11:37.525 --> 00:11:41.015
You're not working any more hours
than someone was 30 years ago at all.

00:11:41.475 --> 00:11:43.885
So, I mean, some of this is just whinging.

00:11:44.845 --> 00:11:45.965
Like, yeah, alright,
you've got to go to work.

00:11:45.985 --> 00:11:48.385
That doesn't mean you can't
make a monogamous relationship

00:11:48.385 --> 00:11:49.605
Ali: in someone's work.

00:11:50.235 --> 00:11:54.635
We're still, even though we've, we've
progressed from the seventies, like

00:11:54.635 --> 00:11:58.175
in a lot of ways and, but yes, we are
still both, you know, say you've got two

00:11:58.175 --> 00:12:02.585
people working those very traditional
heteronormative gender roles of what

00:12:02.585 --> 00:12:05.905
is expected around the house still to
a certain degree has not progressed.

00:12:06.155 --> 00:12:09.615
And that's the problem is that women,
there is still a certain expectation that

00:12:09.615 --> 00:12:12.905
they will still be the primary caregiver
that will be across all the cooking

00:12:12.905 --> 00:12:14.815
and cleaning and the household admin.

00:12:15.085 --> 00:12:15.455
Really?

00:12:15.575 --> 00:12:16.425
Yeah, absolutely.

00:12:16.425 --> 00:12:16.665
Absolutely.

00:12:16.975 --> 00:12:21.205
Amongst literally every woman I know,
absolutely, there's still an inequality.

00:12:21.205 --> 00:12:22.095
I don't know any guys that

00:12:22.095 --> 00:12:23.205
Joe: aren't expected to cook and do

00:12:23.975 --> 00:12:24.815
Ali: the dishes and look after the kids.

00:12:24.815 --> 00:12:28.975
There's real studies and evidence that
the mental load of running a household

00:12:28.975 --> 00:12:30.625
still predominantly falls to women.

00:12:30.645 --> 00:12:31.025
That's just

00:12:31.025 --> 00:12:31.985
Joe: thinking about it more.

00:12:32.305 --> 00:12:32.985
That's not doing

00:12:32.985 --> 00:12:33.345
Ali: it more.

00:12:33.355 --> 00:12:33.755
No, it is.

00:12:33.755 --> 00:12:34.045
It is.

00:12:34.525 --> 00:12:36.045
It's thinking about it and doing it more.

00:12:36.055 --> 00:12:37.105
Like that is absolutely...

00:12:37.485 --> 00:12:40.405
Joe: I think the argument about whether
men should do the dishes was over a

00:12:40.405 --> 00:12:41.905
long time ago and men do the dishes.

00:12:41.915 --> 00:12:42.145
Ali: No.

00:12:43.670 --> 00:12:43.690
No.

00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:44.000
Absolutely not.

00:12:44.390 --> 00:12:44.900
Joe: Where are they

00:12:44.900 --> 00:12:45.450
Sam: not doing this?

00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:49.850
Well, certainly, I mean, all I can offer
is one worthless, one worthless anecdotal

00:12:49.850 --> 00:12:54.200
evidence, which is you'll, you'll never
catch me lounging around on the weekend.

00:12:54.370 --> 00:12:55.720
I'm always getting jobs done.

00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:59.970
And I just, whether that's what's expected
of me or not, I don't know, but that's

00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:05.210
just, I don't feel like if there's things
that can be fixed or mended, or there's

00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.330
things that need tidying or cleaning, or.

00:13:07.885 --> 00:13:10.685
I'm playing with the kids
or we're on an outing.

00:13:10.765 --> 00:13:12.735
So like, that's how I spend my weekends.

00:13:13.205 --> 00:13:16.556
And then when it comes to evenings,
yeah, I'm taking care of others.

00:13:17.156 --> 00:13:20.226
And then at a certain point,
all the chores are done.

00:13:20.746 --> 00:13:22.556
And then I've got a choice.

00:13:22.606 --> 00:13:24.611
I can like work on a project or I can.

00:13:24.693 --> 00:13:25.313
I can go to bed.

00:13:25.773 --> 00:13:27.783
So like, yeah, but that doesn't

00:13:28.073 --> 00:13:31.193
Joe: necessarily leave a whole example of
someone who's still married and making it

00:13:31.193 --> 00:13:31.473
Ali: work.

00:13:31.533 --> 00:13:33.953
I would say you're the
exception, but it doesn't say

00:13:33.953 --> 00:13:35.343
that that's the, I think that's

00:13:35.343 --> 00:13:35.983
Joe: wrong, but

00:13:35.983 --> 00:13:39.533
Sam: I don't, I think there's a fair
few blokes that have around these

00:13:39.553 --> 00:13:40.193
Joe: parts.

00:13:40.253 --> 00:13:40.533
Yeah.

00:13:40.573 --> 00:13:40.933
Come on.

00:13:40.963 --> 00:13:41.763
No, absolutely.

00:13:41.763 --> 00:13:42.083
Melbourne.

00:13:42.083 --> 00:13:43.143
You think men aren't doing what?

00:13:43.198 --> 00:13:43.688
Sam's talking about.

00:13:44.308 --> 00:13:46.458
Ali: They might be doing it,
but not to the extent that...

00:13:46.488 --> 00:13:48.818
Joe: You just don't meet the ones who
are doing it because they're all married

00:13:48.818 --> 00:13:50.088
and they're all like tucked away.

00:13:50.088 --> 00:13:50.788
But the reason...

00:13:50.808 --> 00:13:52.108
You're not meeting them on a dating app.

00:13:52.108 --> 00:13:52.558
No way.

00:13:52.558 --> 00:13:56.378
They're the ones like me who live on
my own and I might leave the dishes

00:13:56.388 --> 00:13:59.178
for four or five days and no one
cares because my kids aren't there.

00:13:59.178 --> 00:14:01.148
Make sure they're clean
when the kids get there.

00:14:01.708 --> 00:14:07.158
And like, I leave a lot of stuff now to
just stay as it is when no one's around.

00:14:07.178 --> 00:14:11.908
And this goes to what your question, like
what you read out at the start, is like...

00:14:12.024 --> 00:14:14.914
You know, the extent of what
I'm not willing to compromise

00:14:14.954 --> 00:14:17.054
on isn't actually that much.

00:14:17.064 --> 00:14:21.804
It's, it's just that I do want that
couch time with my sport, and outside

00:14:21.804 --> 00:14:27.094
of that, if a woman was coming to my
house regularly, let alone moving in,

00:14:27.164 --> 00:14:31.984
I would clean more And I would be on
top of the housework more, but what I

00:14:32.004 --> 00:14:36.414
get to do without that is completely
let all that slide if I feel like

00:14:36.414 --> 00:14:38.384
it, or if my mood's off or whatever.

00:14:38.894 --> 00:14:44.034
And that is a win for me, like that
is a positive that I get to just

00:14:44.034 --> 00:14:48.874
relax on all that, what Sam's talking
about, that constant drudgery.

00:14:49.704 --> 00:14:51.214
When my kids aren't
there, I don't have that.

00:14:51.734 --> 00:14:54.594
I don't go to the supermarket
to buy food to cook.

00:14:54.609 --> 00:14:56.859
Yeah, I don't create many dishes.

00:14:56.859 --> 00:14:57.729
I don't wash many

00:14:57.729 --> 00:14:58.269
Ali: dishes.

00:14:58.269 --> 00:14:58.270
Yeah.

00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:00.759
I think that's the reality of most
people who live by themselves.

00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:00.969
Yeah.

00:15:01.029 --> 00:15:05.289
That, that you don't have the pressure to
be there for another person in that way.

00:15:05.319 --> 00:15:11.169
But going back to, I do believe that
when, that that division of labor

00:15:11.259 --> 00:15:14.349
does predominantly still fall to
women, and there's so much evidence

00:15:14.349 --> 00:15:16.959
Sam: of that, that, and, and I'll
acknowledge that there's a, there's

00:15:16.959 --> 00:15:18.099
an area where the labor is still.

00:15:18.734 --> 00:15:22.354
Um, cause like I'm doing more of
the physical, like the grunt work,

00:15:22.404 --> 00:15:26.444
um, domestically, but there's,
there's a lot of life admin

00:15:26.484 --> 00:15:28.754
that I feel like has increased.

00:15:29.074 --> 00:15:34.789
And with children, there's just so
much paperwork and like on, you know,

00:15:34.789 --> 00:15:38.599
emails and online stuff to keep track
of, and I don't know if that's evenly

00:15:38.659 --> 00:15:40.249
as evenly divided as it should be.

00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:43.099
Ali: I, I, I still get sent
or called from the school

00:15:43.129 --> 00:15:44.779
regardless of whether who's weak.

00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:46.909
Like they, the default is to call mom.

00:15:46.909 --> 00:15:47.329
That's right.

00:15:47.329 --> 00:15:50.179
The default is to send the information,
information to mom and then for

00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:52.174
me to distribute it to, my son's.

00:15:53.119 --> 00:15:55.799
So it's very much that those things

00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:58.869
Sam: are so It's not just

00:15:58.869 --> 00:15:59.359
Ali: the school stuff.

00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:01.519
It tends to triage, like
you said, everything.

00:16:01.609 --> 00:16:03.869
And it's that mental
load that is exhausting.

00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:07.709
It's not like, it's not just having
someone proactively go do the dishes.

00:16:07.709 --> 00:16:08.619
You're like, Oh, can you do the dishes?

00:16:08.619 --> 00:16:09.929
You're still managing it.

00:16:09.930 --> 00:16:11.829
Joe: But the male mind approaches
the same problem to say.

00:16:12.504 --> 00:16:15.484
What's the worst that could happen if
I tune out some of those school emails?

00:16:15.704 --> 00:16:18.714
Sam: Yeah, I think that is
actually a valid response.

00:16:18.794 --> 00:16:19.874
And guess what, Joe?

00:16:19.944 --> 00:16:20.954
A lot of, a lot of...

00:16:20.974 --> 00:16:21.354
You still

00:16:21.354 --> 00:16:24.794
Joe: find out about the concert just
in time and you get down to it and, you

00:16:24.794 --> 00:16:27.524
know, if there's a really an emergency,
yep, they'll call both parents.

00:16:27.524 --> 00:16:29.314
If they couldn't get on to
the mum, they'll call the dad.

00:16:29.324 --> 00:16:30.424
And most of the things that

00:16:30.434 --> 00:16:30.934
Sam: actually...

00:16:30.944 --> 00:16:31.214
Imagine

00:16:31.214 --> 00:16:31.474
Joe: if you just...

00:16:31.824 --> 00:16:33.094
Drop some of that mental load.

00:16:33.104 --> 00:16:34.384
That's what I'd advise.

00:16:34.394 --> 00:16:34.974
Most of the,

00:16:34.994 --> 00:16:36.854
Sam: well, this is, well,
this is But you love it.

00:16:36.954 --> 00:16:37.624
This is what gets us This is the

00:16:37.824 --> 00:16:38.244
Joe: contradiction.

00:16:38.244 --> 00:16:39.764
You actually love it because

00:16:40.024 --> 00:16:40.534
Sam: you're a concerned mum.

00:16:40.544 --> 00:16:41.674
That's a dead, that's a dead end.

00:16:41.704 --> 00:16:43.724
But I think where the
conversation is more You do.

00:16:44.234 --> 00:16:45.624
Where the conversation is more productive

00:16:46.064 --> 00:16:46.874
Ali: It's really not.

00:16:47.934 --> 00:16:48.424
Sam: Sorry, Sam.

00:16:48.884 --> 00:16:49.654
No, no, that's all right.

00:16:49.694 --> 00:16:55.254
No, no, it's, I think that there's I
can imagine maybe a holdover from your

00:16:55.294 --> 00:17:00.234
earlier relationship where maybe there
were times when, you know, the mother of

00:17:00.234 --> 00:17:04.124
your kids cared more about things than you
thought was necessary or even desirable.

00:17:04.124 --> 00:17:05.594
Joe: No, no, that's still the system.

00:17:05.884 --> 00:17:07.264
Same system Ali was talking about.

00:17:07.594 --> 00:17:11.804
School rings mum, you
know, the emails go to mum.

00:17:12.104 --> 00:17:13.934
She's carrying the mental load
about anything school related.

00:17:13.934 --> 00:17:14.174
I get

00:17:14.954 --> 00:17:18.794
Sam: the emails too, and then they get,
I get them forwarded to me sometimes.

00:17:18.924 --> 00:17:19.184
It's mostly

00:17:19.184 --> 00:17:19.644
Joe: spam.

00:17:19.654 --> 00:17:22.514
It's mostly just not relevant crap
that they send from the school.

00:17:22.554 --> 00:17:25.454
Sam: Yeah, and so, but also, can I
say, like there's a lot of women I've

00:17:25.564 --> 00:17:31.424
observed in like the school community
who will be really on and off with being

00:17:31.424 --> 00:17:36.284
all over it one month, and then they've
had it the next, and I overhear them.

00:17:37.269 --> 00:17:38.299
Seriously, they were all over it.

00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:41.209
They were passing on info at one
point and now they're standing

00:17:41.209 --> 00:17:43.139
there at the gate going, I don't
even know what's happening anymore.

00:17:43.149 --> 00:17:44.179
Ali: There's a curriculum day.

00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:44.979
Sam: Yeah.

00:17:44.979 --> 00:17:45.789
And what is this?

00:17:45.849 --> 00:17:46.509
I don't understand.

00:17:46.539 --> 00:17:47.999
And then it's someone else's job.

00:17:48.204 --> 00:17:51.894
One person's gone and said, I'll
assume responsibility for these things.

00:17:52.224 --> 00:17:55.774
Someone else has said, I'll go ahead and
assume responsibility for these things.

00:17:56.354 --> 00:17:59.184
And there's not necessarily
a lot of communication or

00:17:59.384 --> 00:18:01.114
clarification going on around that.

00:18:02.104 --> 00:18:04.484
And there wouldn't necessarily have to be.

00:18:04.904 --> 00:18:08.744
If both people had a sustainable
workload and felt like...

00:18:09.264 --> 00:18:11.194
If they could rely on each
other, well, then you probably

00:18:11.194 --> 00:18:12.044
wouldn't need to discuss much.

00:18:12.174 --> 00:18:15.214
Ali: There are things that you
might be inherently bring to the

00:18:15.214 --> 00:18:16.664
relationship that you're better at.

00:18:16.664 --> 00:18:17.674
Just say you're a better organizer.

00:18:18.144 --> 00:18:18.984
You're better at doing those things.

00:18:18.984 --> 00:18:21.504
So those duties are going to fall
to you and they're going to be other

00:18:21.504 --> 00:18:24.074
things that the other person is
better at, like remembering the kid's

00:18:24.074 --> 00:18:25.744
friends names and Pokemon stuff.

00:18:26.064 --> 00:18:29.174
So it makes sense that you would
naturally fall into those things.

00:18:29.304 --> 00:18:31.464
I think the problem arises when.

00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:37.049
, the, the assumption that women are somehow
better at the organizing and the, see, I

00:18:37.049 --> 00:18:39.719
don't even know the arranging the doctor's
appointments and all that nonsense.

00:18:39.719 --> 00:18:42.329
Like, I don't think women are just,
they're necessarily No, they're normal.

00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:42.599
Absolutely.

00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.469
I'm not like

00:18:43.469 --> 00:18:43.859
Joe: so much.

00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:46.799
It's a general, it's a
general trend you can point to

00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:46.949
Sam: though.

00:18:46.949 --> 00:18:47.669
That's accurate.

00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.609
But also I think that both
couples are, and look, we, we

00:18:50.609 --> 00:18:51.929
need, we need to get off like.

00:18:52.144 --> 00:18:54.734
We need to get away from couples
with children at some point, to

00:18:54.734 --> 00:18:56.724
actually just talk about, let's just
say, Yeah, I want to get back to the

00:18:56.724 --> 00:18:58.644
Joe: question, which, the topic.

00:18:58.664 --> 00:18:58.974
Older

00:18:58.974 --> 00:19:01.854
Sam: people aligning with each other,
let's say, long after the children

00:19:01.854 --> 00:19:04.204
have grown up, and they're both
set in their ways and used to their

00:19:04.204 --> 00:19:08.504
independence, and he likes going on
cruises, but she doesn't, you know,

00:19:08.534 --> 00:19:09.594
how are they going to figure it out?

00:19:09.594 --> 00:19:09.954
But that's,

00:19:10.094 --> 00:19:11.544
Joe: like, we're being a bit conservative.

00:19:11.544 --> 00:19:14.054
You said, oh, yeah, I remember
someone in the 90s who used

00:19:14.054 --> 00:19:15.064
to live in separate houses.

00:19:15.064 --> 00:19:19.059
It's like, hang on, what about, like,
Simone de Beauvoir and John Paul

00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:20.509
Sartre, didn't they live separately?

00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:21.019
Yeah, of course.

00:19:21.019 --> 00:19:22.379
Like, this has been going on forever.

00:19:22.379 --> 00:19:28.929
The assumption in the topic is that
you'll meet someone on a dating app,

00:19:28.939 --> 00:19:30.609
have a great six months, then shack up.

00:19:30.979 --> 00:19:33.399
And I just don't see that
happening very often, actually.

00:19:33.399 --> 00:19:37.519
I think we've already moved past
people who've come out of divorces

00:19:37.689 --> 00:19:41.759
or had kids or just burnt out by
the late 30s and still single.

00:19:42.374 --> 00:19:45.784
The, I don't think it is a high
probability that the next person you're

00:19:45.784 --> 00:19:48.144
going to meet you're going to live
with, so I think the assumption of

00:19:48.144 --> 00:19:54.644
this topic is maybe just a little bit
outdated that, that, that the, that the

00:19:54.654 --> 00:19:57.204
fallback is somehow to live together.

00:19:57.534 --> 00:20:00.114
I mean, where do you think, Ali,
where do you think we're actually at?

00:20:00.124 --> 00:20:04.154
What is the expectation if you've,
say you meet someone, you fall madly

00:20:04.154 --> 00:20:07.894
in love, and the red flags aren't
there, and it's been six months, you're

00:20:07.904 --> 00:20:11.074
having a great time, is there still an
assumption that you would live in the same

00:20:11.164 --> 00:20:11.514
Ali: house?

00:20:11.524 --> 00:20:12.084
I think.

00:20:12.614 --> 00:20:14.744
We're socialized to believe
that that's the case.

00:20:14.774 --> 00:20:17.884
I still believe that's very much
the way we are, you know, that

00:20:17.884 --> 00:20:21.104
would be the expectation and those
conversations usually do start to

00:20:21.104 --> 00:20:23.234
arise around that six or 12 month mark.

00:20:23.234 --> 00:20:24.274
It's like, okay, what are we doing?

00:20:24.274 --> 00:20:25.344
Are we going to move in together?

00:20:25.374 --> 00:20:27.344
Like those things definitely come up.

00:20:27.354 --> 00:20:31.004
I, I think where Sam was saying
in that, you know, like you were

00:20:31.004 --> 00:20:32.934
saying, historically, people www.

00:20:33.204 --> 00:20:34.814
engvid.

00:20:37.884 --> 00:20:46.136
com Thank you so much for joining

00:20:46.136 --> 00:20:54.227
Sam: us today and we'll see you

00:20:54.227 --> 00:20:59.622
Joe: in the next one.

00:20:59.622 --> 00:21:00.970
Bye.

00:21:00.970 --> 00:21:02.319
Bye.

00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:03.667
Bye.

00:21:03.667 --> 00:21:06.364
Good luck.

00:21:07.104 --> 00:21:12.534
North Carlton Sharehouse with a bunch of
other young women and almost relive my

00:21:12.534 --> 00:21:16.144
youth a little bit and be going out and
getting bagels on a Saturday morning.

00:21:16.184 --> 00:21:18.214
And I, we got to have
the best of both worlds.

00:21:18.214 --> 00:21:18.734
Yeah, that's fun.

00:21:18.914 --> 00:21:19.514
And then.

00:21:19.949 --> 00:21:23.249
That got to about the six month
mark and it was going to make

00:21:23.309 --> 00:21:25.849
more sense to probably shack up.

00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.389
And then I did my usual thing
and just became emotionally

00:21:28.389 --> 00:21:29.899
unavailable and ended it.

00:21:30.259 --> 00:21:30.639
But

00:21:30.639 --> 00:21:31.019
Sam: like...

00:21:31.369 --> 00:21:34.259
Sounds like you, yeah, sounds
like you don't want to be moving

00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:37.229
in and having anyone step on your
prerogatives even in the slightest.

00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:42.069
Joe: Well, would I be happier if I
didn't have the opportunity to be a slob?

00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:48.999
No, no, because Maybe I'd be
looking around my very neat...

00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:52.399
But, you know, look, my place
isn't too bad at all, but some days

00:21:52.399 --> 00:21:55.859
I will, some weeks I will leave
the dishes for four or five days,

00:21:56.149 --> 00:21:58.389
and Sam, you could never do that.

00:21:58.389 --> 00:21:58.579
No.

00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:03.219
But I'll put it to you that if
Kath kicked you out tomorrow, the

00:22:03.219 --> 00:22:06.399
flat that you live in around the
corner might not be the cleanest.

00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:07.949
Most well,

00:22:08.189 --> 00:22:09.789
Sam: uh, that's an, it's interesting.

00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:10.249
I don't know.

00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:11.059
Maintained

00:22:11.349 --> 00:22:11.739
Joe: apartment.

00:22:11.989 --> 00:22:12.089
You

00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:12.989
Sam: know what I mean?

00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:14.729
I would certainly have the option.

00:22:15.659 --> 00:22:15.909
Joe: You would.

00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.629
When the kids aren't coming around,
you can live like you were 21.

00:22:19.649 --> 00:22:20.079
So no, it's

00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:20.519
Ali: interesting.

00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.229
I got like dating plenty of men
and then you get to see their

00:22:23.229 --> 00:22:25.759
apartments and you get to see, you
know, and you actually get a little.

00:22:25.789 --> 00:22:25.949
Yeah.

00:22:25.949 --> 00:22:26.629
You've seen a lot.

00:22:26.679 --> 00:22:28.546
I've seen a few, but I've seen

00:22:28.546 --> 00:22:29.456
Joe: more pictures.

00:22:29.456 --> 00:22:29.912
Hey,

00:22:29.912 --> 00:22:31.278
Sam: hey, hey, slam,

00:22:31.278 --> 00:22:32.189
Ali: slut shaming.

00:22:32.189 --> 00:22:33.099
Come on.

00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:35.709
But like some of them, yeah, you see
like, oh yeah, they definitely live.

00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:37.999
Like a slob or then you say,
well, this is my question,

00:22:38.019 --> 00:22:41.769
but then there are others that are
absolutely like fastidiously clean.

00:22:43.434 --> 00:22:47.734
Yeah, there's something very appealing
about like someone who has a fastidiously

00:22:47.924 --> 00:22:50.294
clean home and you're like, Oh,
this is a fully functioning adult.

00:22:50.304 --> 00:22:51.134
This is attractive.

00:22:51.154 --> 00:22:54.214
Like, there's something very
attractive about seeing a clean home.

00:22:54.214 --> 00:22:54.344
I can

00:22:54.644 --> 00:22:57.024
Joe: mock that up to make my
place look like that very quickly.

00:22:57.514 --> 00:22:57.644
I'd

00:22:57.644 --> 00:23:01.474
Ali: say like these, like, just
I'm thinking of specific examples,

00:23:01.474 --> 00:23:03.524
they're very much live like that
and that's just their day to day.

00:23:03.834 --> 00:23:05.244
Sam: But you're not a
hoarder, are you, Joe?

00:23:05.244 --> 00:23:06.874
So you don't, no, you're fine.

00:23:06.884 --> 00:23:07.714
Like on that front.

00:23:07.714 --> 00:23:07.934
Joe: Yeah.

00:23:08.024 --> 00:23:08.334
Yeah.

00:23:08.335 --> 00:23:08.759
Thanks.

00:23:09.589 --> 00:23:13.679
Look, it's been a fairly fallow period
while I've been doing this podcast,

00:23:13.729 --> 00:23:17.819
and I must admit there's things like
the ironing board doesn't get put away

00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:21.439
anymore, it just gets ironing piled up
on it in the lounge room and things...

00:23:21.439 --> 00:23:21.639
Ali: Ironing?

00:23:21.869 --> 00:23:22.889
Who irons these days?

00:23:22.969 --> 00:23:23.964
I don't iron it.

00:23:23.964 --> 00:23:24.629
I have to get

00:23:24.629 --> 00:23:28.599
Joe: my white shirts, white t shirts, very
crispy white to go under the tracksuits,

00:23:28.629 --> 00:23:30.799
so I pay my daughter two dollars an item.

00:23:30.869 --> 00:23:31.349
I've heard that eshays,

00:23:31.389 --> 00:23:34.309
Sam: eshays need to be good at laundry.

00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:34.789
Yeah.

00:23:35.399 --> 00:23:35.599
I've

00:23:36.029 --> 00:23:36.059
Joe: heard.

00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:36.384
I've heard.

00:23:36.604 --> 00:23:38.774
No, that's the only reason
to iron the white t shirts.

00:23:39.464 --> 00:23:39.834
Yeah.

00:23:39.854 --> 00:23:41.004
Ali: I don't iron anything.

00:23:41.004 --> 00:23:42.054
It's not in my skill set.

00:23:42.174 --> 00:23:42.354
And

00:23:42.404 --> 00:23:44.964
Sam: you're certainly not going to be,
no woman is going to be able to iron

00:23:44.964 --> 00:23:46.614
that t shirt to your satisfaction, Joe.

00:23:46.714 --> 00:23:47.064
You know.

00:23:47.504 --> 00:23:47.894
Oh, my

00:23:47.904 --> 00:23:48.494
Joe: daughter does.

00:23:48.494 --> 00:23:49.344
It's fantastic.

00:23:49.484 --> 00:23:49.744
Jesus.

00:23:50.814 --> 00:23:52.984
Ali: But like, so just so you
She makes good money out of it.

00:23:53.324 --> 00:23:53.694
Sam: It's capitalism.

00:23:53.714 --> 00:23:53.764
Oh, I see.

00:23:53.764 --> 00:23:54.104
I see.

00:23:54.124 --> 00:23:54.414
I see.

00:23:54.604 --> 00:23:54.634
But

00:23:54.634 --> 00:23:57.394
Ali: I'm saying like, if you shacked
up with someone, the expectation is

00:23:57.394 --> 00:24:00.754
your partner isn't picking that up and
then ironing your t shirts for you.

00:24:01.124 --> 00:24:05.624
Joe: I've never dated someone who
wasn't a pretty hardcore feminist.

00:24:06.219 --> 00:24:09.509
And I've never had my fucking
undies picked up, or, like,

00:24:14.919 --> 00:24:15.399
Ali: even, a bit, this stuff that

00:24:15.529 --> 00:24:18.519
Joe: you talk about, to me it's
like, from the 1950s, I have

00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:19.589
no idea what you're talking

00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:20.089
Ali: about.

00:24:20.149 --> 00:24:21.169
No, I'm not joking.

00:24:21.739 --> 00:24:22.079
This is outrageous.

00:24:22.499 --> 00:24:23.499
And it's not just one person.

00:24:23.499 --> 00:24:23.989
It's not one.

00:24:23.999 --> 00:24:24.769
We're not talking one.

00:24:24.959 --> 00:24:26.009
They said they expect
you to do their laundry.

00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:27.139
No, they didn't say anything.

00:24:27.209 --> 00:24:29.019
They didn't say anything, it
just appears there, and you're

00:24:29.019 --> 00:24:30.529
like, okay, am I doing this now?

00:24:30.709 --> 00:24:31.629
Like, I mean.

00:24:31.630 --> 00:24:32.069
And you did the laundry.

00:24:32.069 --> 00:24:32.879
When I was young.

00:24:33.224 --> 00:24:34.054
Would you like me to

00:24:34.054 --> 00:24:34.984
Sam: burn this for you?

00:24:34.984 --> 00:24:35.904
I mean, R E S

00:24:35.904 --> 00:24:37.094
Joe: P E C T, Ali.

00:24:37.104 --> 00:24:37.594
I know, when I

00:24:40.734 --> 00:24:42.824
Ali: was young, and I didn't know
any different, and like, that sort

00:24:42.824 --> 00:24:45.304
of very defined gender roles was
modelled to me from my parents.

00:24:45.314 --> 00:24:47.174
It's just, oh, okay, well,
that's what I've got to do.

00:24:47.814 --> 00:24:49.904
But then, you know, since...

00:24:49.904 --> 00:24:50.764
This is in the 21st century.

00:24:50.774 --> 00:24:53.364
No, well, now, I certainly
would not tolerate that.

00:24:53.384 --> 00:24:54.464
I absolutely...

00:24:54.604 --> 00:24:56.034
Like you can take your stuff home.

00:24:56.074 --> 00:24:57.974
You can take, I'm not
cleaning up after you.

00:24:57.974 --> 00:25:01.464
Or this is how the, you know, do you need
help with how the washing machine works?

00:25:01.464 --> 00:25:02.604
Like that's about it.

00:25:02.604 --> 00:25:04.264
Like I'm not doing that anymore.

00:25:04.264 --> 00:25:08.744
And that's become like a bottom line
for me as far as one of my values.

00:25:08.744 --> 00:25:12.594
Like, so my psychologist
years ago, when I found myself

00:25:12.594 --> 00:25:14.374
single, he made me write down.

00:25:15.009 --> 00:25:18.239
All the things that were deal breakers
and the things that I was looking

00:25:18.239 --> 00:25:20.789
for in a relationship and the deal
breakers are actually things that

00:25:20.789 --> 00:25:22.099
are fundamental to our values.

00:25:22.449 --> 00:25:25.669
And so, yeah, one of them was like
dating a fully functioning adult man.

00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:28.689
And that was, and what I meant by
that is somebody who can take care of

00:25:28.689 --> 00:25:32.689
themselves and put in, in a, on the
home front and in an equitable way.

00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:33.269
Yes.

00:25:33.429 --> 00:25:34.359
I just don't want to do that again.

00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:36.379
Cause that's definitely been my
experience and I know I'm not the

00:25:36.379 --> 00:25:38.089
only woman that that has happened to.

00:25:38.109 --> 00:25:40.389
That is absolutely the
experience of lots of women.

00:25:40.439 --> 00:25:44.319
Sam: And let's say that there was
a scenario where, You, you find,

00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:48.749
you found yourself doing it and it
was not like, um, it was not like

00:25:49.639 --> 00:25:52.579
a, a huge like burden work wise.

00:25:52.999 --> 00:25:56.639
It would nonetheless interfere
with your respect for that person.

00:25:56.929 --> 00:25:58.159
And it's just as simple as that.

00:25:58.389 --> 00:26:01.169
Ali: And you become resentful because
it's like, okay, I don't mind putting on

00:26:01.169 --> 00:26:04.349
a load of washing if you've chucked some
things on, but when are you ever going to.

00:26:04.774 --> 00:26:06.634
Just do a load of washing
with my stuff in it.

00:26:07.174 --> 00:26:10.724
And then, or even worse, like, you know,
they'll, you know, the sort of the, you

00:26:10.724 --> 00:26:13.874
know, um, feigned incompetence where
they'll deliberately wash something

00:26:14.304 --> 00:26:18.114
that is, you know, and do it wrong or
shrink something or ruin something so

00:26:18.114 --> 00:26:19.884
that, Oh, you do it better than me.

00:26:20.144 --> 00:26:21.944
So that job now falls to you.

00:26:22.074 --> 00:26:25.344
And I've, again, a lot of that
weaponized incompetence is.

00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.729
It is not just my experience, like a
lot of women have experienced that.

00:26:29.729 --> 00:26:30.239
That's right.

00:26:30.789 --> 00:26:31.939
You're the better cook.

00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:33.459
You're better at organizing the kids.

00:26:33.489 --> 00:26:36.279
And that was sort of what I
was arguing before is that why

00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.269
is it that somehow women are
perceived to be, it's a mum thing.

00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:40.119
It's not a mum thing.

00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:41.339
Some women aren't great cooks.

00:26:41.349 --> 00:26:42.399
Some women aren't good at the admin.

00:26:42.899 --> 00:26:44.429
Some women, you know, are crap at laundry.

00:26:44.429 --> 00:26:47.249
Sam: I knew lots of women, lots of
women growing up, for some reason, I

00:26:47.249 --> 00:26:50.209
think people's mums would confide in me,
but yeah, they would often say things

00:26:50.209 --> 00:26:52.959
like, I fucking hate doing the cooking.

00:26:52.979 --> 00:26:53.189
Yeah.

00:26:53.569 --> 00:26:56.029
And I'm like, like, oh, like
you hate doing it all the time.

00:26:56.419 --> 00:26:56.849
No.

00:26:57.219 --> 00:26:59.369
I never liked it and never will.

00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:04.949
I'm like, okay, like, you know, dad
would cook like two nights a week

00:27:05.269 --> 00:27:08.109
and mom was just burdened by it.

00:27:08.139 --> 00:27:11.289
Like she just didn't like, didn't
want to do it most of the time.

00:27:11.289 --> 00:27:15.749
She had too much on and even without like
a full time job, she had a lot going on

00:27:15.899 --> 00:27:20.029
and to keep up with four children and,
you know, community work, volunteer stuff.

00:27:20.029 --> 00:27:24.059
And she was, you know, as well as running
her own little enterprises, like small

00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:26.179
financially speaking, but huge labor wise.

00:27:27.019 --> 00:27:27.349
And.

00:27:28.384 --> 00:27:28.594
Yeah.

00:27:28.594 --> 00:27:34.624
And at one point she just like gave up
and just, we found easier solutions, let's

00:27:34.624 --> 00:27:36.834
say, to the problem of feeding everybody.

00:27:36.964 --> 00:27:40.494
And that was a necessary and
like useful compromise to make.

00:27:40.494 --> 00:27:42.624
And I look, and can I just say,
I saw my parents make loads

00:27:42.624 --> 00:27:43.974
of compromises between them.

00:27:44.334 --> 00:27:49.608
And I think it was not always an easy
process, but you know, dad could be quite,

00:27:49.827 --> 00:27:55.107
Stubborn and sort of, he would take a long
time to get used to new things sometimes.

00:27:55.157 --> 00:27:59.227
And mum would worry
unnecessarily about things, Joe.

00:27:59.227 --> 00:28:02.547
So that was, you know, I'll,
I'll pay you a slight bit of

00:28:02.547 --> 00:28:03.807
credit for your point earlier.

00:28:04.347 --> 00:28:06.277
Some women care more about
things than they should.

00:28:06.277 --> 00:28:07.397
I actually do agree with that.

00:28:08.314 --> 00:28:12.334
it's not as easy as it is saying,
here, I release you from the

00:28:12.584 --> 00:28:13.274
need to give a fuck about that.

00:28:13.364 --> 00:28:15.624
Ali: You don't have to worry
about the 45 school emails.

00:28:16.064 --> 00:28:16.274
Sam: Yeah.

00:28:16.834 --> 00:28:16.894
Yeah.

00:28:17.314 --> 00:28:17.874
And the thing is.

00:28:18.154 --> 00:28:20.814
That's right, and so what this goes
to, I think, is like, let's say, even

00:28:20.814 --> 00:28:24.954
taking children out of the picture, two
people entering into just any level of

00:28:24.954 --> 00:28:28.129
cohabitation, or just spending any amount
of time around each other, it's one of

00:28:28.129 --> 00:28:32.121
the, like, Uh, you know, has you had
to do, uh, with your psychologist and

00:28:32.121 --> 00:28:35.481
also when you were in the hospital, like
auditing your connections and all of that.

00:28:36.011 --> 00:28:42.041
This process of like fearlessly auditing
our lives and where things are at, what

00:28:42.046 --> 00:28:46.911
we can expect realistically from ourselves
and from others, what we're willing to,

00:28:48.121 --> 00:28:52.141
um, you know, be flexible on and what
we feel like we can't compromise on.

00:28:52.171 --> 00:28:52.651
Okay.

00:28:53.191 --> 00:28:58.006
But how many people are actually
really itemizing this properly and

00:28:58.156 --> 00:29:00.556
Ali: the first time I was asked to
do it, yeah, it was my psychologist

00:29:00.556 --> 00:29:03.526
and I was in my late thirties and
I'd never thought about that before.

00:29:03.536 --> 00:29:06.216
Like, Oh, these are the things
that actually really bother me or

00:29:06.216 --> 00:29:07.426
these are the things I really want.

00:29:07.426 --> 00:29:08.816
And I hadn't really thought about it.

00:29:08.816 --> 00:29:10.926
It was more just like, I'm
attracted to this person.

00:29:10.926 --> 00:29:12.306
I have a nice time with this person.

00:29:12.886 --> 00:29:13.986
I'm going to be with this person.

00:29:13.996 --> 00:29:15.296
I shouldn't have to think
about anything else.

00:29:15.476 --> 00:29:15.956
Yeah, exactly.

00:29:15.976 --> 00:29:19.756
Rather than actually the practical day
to day stuff that actually really does

00:29:19.786 --> 00:29:23.236
impact whether you have a successful
and happy, healthy relationship.

00:29:23.576 --> 00:29:23.986
And.

00:29:24.371 --> 00:29:27.281
Yeah, being forced to do that and
really look at it and have it as a

00:29:27.281 --> 00:29:28.691
reminder and I still go back to it.

00:29:28.691 --> 00:29:30.071
I still look at them regularly.

00:29:30.221 --> 00:29:32.991
I've got, you know, very clear
lists of what I want and what I'm

00:29:33.191 --> 00:29:34.361
willing and not willing to accept.

00:29:34.701 --> 00:29:38.011
And it really, you know, yeah, cause
sometimes you can get carried away

00:29:38.011 --> 00:29:39.661
with, I'm so attracted to this person.

00:29:39.661 --> 00:29:42.291
And then you have to actually take a
step back and go, hang on, they're going

00:29:42.291 --> 00:29:44.451
to fundamentally not meet these values.

00:29:44.471 --> 00:29:45.891
Because the thing is Ali,

00:29:46.631 --> 00:29:47.591
Joe: it's not hard.

00:29:47.651 --> 00:29:49.041
My mom's one of these people.

00:29:49.181 --> 00:29:50.271
It's not hard to meet.

00:29:50.756 --> 00:29:56.116
A woman in her 70s who gave up
on men around their early to mid

00:29:56.686 --> 00:29:59.026
40s and just went, you know what?

00:29:59.426 --> 00:30:00.216
Fuck this.

00:30:00.986 --> 00:30:03.466
And I think women are much, we've
spoken about this And there's a

00:30:03.486 --> 00:30:06.286
Sam: lot of blokes that too, they
just don't talk about Well, like

00:30:06.286 --> 00:30:09.316
Joe: I said, there are a couple
of people I know, my age, who

00:30:09.356 --> 00:30:12.106
I've heard the rumour that they've
just gone, we don't date anymore.

00:30:12.806 --> 00:30:16.996
And I would say that's not healthy
because that's a sexual anorexia.

00:30:17.681 --> 00:30:21.191
Kicking in in your early 40s, where you
should still be having healthy sex and

00:30:21.201 --> 00:30:23.811
intimacy and that kind of thing, um,

00:30:23.821 --> 00:30:25.461
Ali: But who's to say you
can't have those things

00:30:25.461 --> 00:30:25.741
Joe: without...

00:30:25.751 --> 00:30:27.901
Well, you can't without
someone else, generally.

00:30:28.031 --> 00:30:28.181
No,

00:30:28.181 --> 00:30:30.971
Ali: no, but I'm saying you
could still date to have sex

00:30:30.981 --> 00:30:32.351
or like see people to have sex.

00:30:32.351 --> 00:30:32.901
No, no, they're not

00:30:33.091 --> 00:30:33.881
Joe: dating to have sex,

00:30:33.951 --> 00:30:34.531
Ali: they're not dating.

00:30:34.731 --> 00:30:35.051
Okay,

00:30:35.051 --> 00:30:35.891
Joe: and they're just not having...

00:30:35.891 --> 00:30:37.771
They've just gone, I'm done with it all.

00:30:38.001 --> 00:30:43.089
And I think it's more common for women to
do that than men, Because it's not obvious

00:30:43.169 --> 00:30:47.141
in this topic that you or all your friends
are gonna decide, you know what, yeah, I

00:30:47.141 --> 00:30:51.491
will compromise on a bunch of stuff and
have a big hairy man who leaves his jocks

00:30:51.491 --> 00:30:53.611
on the floor of the bathroom in my house.

00:30:53.641 --> 00:30:55.981
I don't think you're leaning, I
don't think you guys are leaning...

00:30:56.311 --> 00:31:00.051
In that direction, and I'm not leaning
towards, you know what, I don't really

00:31:00.051 --> 00:31:03.381
need to watch every ball of that
test match, that's crazy, of course

00:31:03.381 --> 00:31:06.531
I want to go and eat a Devonshire tea
in the Dandenongs mountains instead.

00:31:07.041 --> 00:31:11.551
I'm not leaning that way at all, like
not even slightly leaning that way, so

00:31:11.641 --> 00:31:15.781
it's like I would have to be head over
heels to give up on my obsessions, let

00:31:15.781 --> 00:31:21.681
alone the addiction recovery work and the
therapy work I've done in the 15 months

00:31:21.691 --> 00:31:23.281
since I was last in a relationship.

00:31:23.941 --> 00:31:27.511
Joking about the cricket to one
side, like this has been incredible

00:31:27.511 --> 00:31:30.161
work that I've had to do, but
I've done it as a single person.

00:31:30.171 --> 00:31:35.001
Ali: So I would say a lot of these
women have made those compromises

00:31:35.001 --> 00:31:41.061
though, in their thirties for fertility
reasons, as in they would not have

00:31:41.091 --> 00:31:44.561
necessarily settled down with that
person in their twenties or like 10

00:31:44.561 --> 00:31:47.501
years before, but because for a variety
of reasons, they want to have kids,

00:31:47.921 --> 00:31:52.071
they have made compromises and are now,
you know, have made babies with these.

00:31:52.451 --> 00:31:53.871
Men, and for whatever reason,

00:31:54.921 --> 00:32:00.501
Sam: made babies with these babies,
I'll begrudgingly acknowledge

00:32:00.501 --> 00:32:01.911
their adult biologically.

00:32:02.841 --> 00:32:03.031
Well,

00:32:06.321 --> 00:32:09.061
look, honestly, I just want to
say like, sorry, Ali, I really

00:32:09.061 --> 00:32:10.031
should let you continue with this.

00:32:10.041 --> 00:32:14.651
It's an important train of thought,
but like, if there's any one

00:32:14.681 --> 00:32:16.051
that's male listening to this.

00:32:16.336 --> 00:32:19.946
And you're not picking up after
yourself, like, please, for the love

00:32:19.946 --> 00:32:23.096
of God, do it, do it for your bros.

00:32:23.336 --> 00:32:27.246
Do it so that Ali can just one
day come on the show and say, Sam,

00:32:27.336 --> 00:32:28.666
I think it's, I think it's over.

00:32:28.886 --> 00:32:31.106
I don't think there's any men
not picking him up anymore.

00:32:31.136 --> 00:32:32.326
I think it's a thing of the past.

00:32:32.606 --> 00:32:36.016
Like, can we like men, we
are holding ourselves back.

00:32:36.386 --> 00:32:41.306
We're holding the women folk back
with this nonsense, like, stop it.

00:32:41.876 --> 00:32:44.306
Joe: And I'll just say I never
try and give advice on this show

00:32:44.306 --> 00:32:45.456
or tell anyone else what to do.

00:32:45.486 --> 00:32:47.762
Sam's quite happy to
do that, I've noticed.

00:32:47.762 --> 00:32:50.006
Look, I'll say this as if
someone's listening to you, Sam,

00:32:50.036 --> 00:32:51.276
why would anyone listen to you?

00:32:51.276 --> 00:32:51.286
No,

00:32:51.286 --> 00:32:52.856
Sam: no, no, no, I'm, no, I'm, no,

00:32:52.926 --> 00:32:55.036
Joe: I'm, you can talk about your
own experience, but when you do

00:32:55.036 --> 00:32:58.086
share advice, it's like, no one's
tuned into this cause they're like,

00:32:58.086 --> 00:32:59.676
want to hear Sam, the expert on

00:32:59.686 --> 00:33:00.236
Sam: blah, blah.

00:33:00.266 --> 00:33:03.636
Joe, I'm not actually seeking to
influence anyone's behavior here.

00:33:03.636 --> 00:33:06.086
I'm expressing a feeling
that I have, which is.

00:33:07.231 --> 00:33:07.771
I am

00:33:07.891 --> 00:33:09.721
Ali: collective sadness
for the state of men.

00:33:09.721 --> 00:33:16.021
Sam: I'm actually really tired and sad of
hearing these retrograde conversations on

00:33:16.141 --> 00:33:19.091
the radio, like just the same old stuff.

00:33:19.181 --> 00:33:19.901
Endlessly.

00:33:20.311 --> 00:33:22.351
Men still aren't doing this,
men still aren't doing that.

00:33:23.431 --> 00:33:24.631
That's reflecting poorly on me.

00:33:25.571 --> 00:33:26.881
And I'm sick of it.

00:33:27.041 --> 00:33:30.031
Like, I feel like I'm not getting
credit for what I'm actually putting in.

00:33:30.051 --> 00:33:32.661
I don't mean within the, these,
within this house, I mean

00:33:32.671 --> 00:33:33.911
within the broader community.

00:33:33.911 --> 00:33:38.781
Like, I feel like because of these
other, like, no hopers, that I'm

00:33:38.781 --> 00:33:41.331
walking down the street with people
looking at me and going, look at

00:33:41.331 --> 00:33:42.681
that cunt, he never does the dishes.

00:33:43.261 --> 00:33:45.881
Ali: Or is it that, like, have
you heard of, there's a phenomenon

00:33:45.981 --> 00:33:48.171
about like men wanting compliments?

00:33:48.441 --> 00:33:50.261
or Acknowledgement for doing basic things.

00:33:50.521 --> 00:33:51.781
Where's my compliments?

00:33:51.781 --> 00:33:52.711
Yeah, exactly.

00:33:52.721 --> 00:33:55.421
And that, that women, I definitely
want praise for everything.

00:33:55.651 --> 00:33:58.631
So yeah, you want praise for something
that like, you know, look, look, I

00:33:58.631 --> 00:34:00.201
picked my underpants up off the floor.

00:34:00.201 --> 00:34:01.031
Am I a good boy?

00:34:01.271 --> 00:34:04.751
No, whether it's that, or it's just
like men, the expect expectation,

00:34:04.751 --> 00:34:06.816
I somehow want praise for doing.

00:34:06.996 --> 00:34:09.726
The Bare Minimum, which women
do not get praise or even

00:34:09.726 --> 00:34:11.046
acknowledgement for, it's just

00:34:11.086 --> 00:34:11.466
Joe: like...

00:34:11.546 --> 00:34:13.806
It's definitely, yeah, I
definitely identify with that.

00:34:13.826 --> 00:34:16.146
I want constant praise
for everything I do.

00:34:16.246 --> 00:34:16.406
But

00:34:16.406 --> 00:34:18.886
Sam: this is, look, and I don't
think that's necessarily wrong,

00:34:18.916 --> 00:34:20.106
and I think that a good couple...

00:34:20.821 --> 00:34:23.651
Um, I'm just going to say this and
people can feel free to disagree.

00:34:24.141 --> 00:34:28.881
I think if you are not in the habit of
regularly showering the other person

00:34:29.271 --> 00:34:34.871
with like, plausible compliments and
plausible acknowledgements, and if

00:34:34.871 --> 00:34:36.791
you're not doing that, why the hell not?

00:34:37.131 --> 00:34:38.251
Like, it's not hard.

00:34:38.281 --> 00:34:40.861
Joe: Cause the last few years
of my longterm relationship

00:34:40.901 --> 00:34:42.461
was like, forget about it.

00:34:42.551 --> 00:34:46.041
And by the time we got into
couples counselling, it was like

00:34:47.601 --> 00:34:53.241
the slightest hint of anything
positive coming towards me.

00:34:53.271 --> 00:34:53.601
Sure.

00:34:53.811 --> 00:34:55.241
There was so much resentment.

00:34:55.271 --> 00:34:56.581
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:56.581 --> 00:35:00.779
And, and, but because I haven't gone into
a long term relationship again, there's,

00:35:00.829 --> 00:35:03.919
there's also been very little praise.

00:35:04.359 --> 00:35:10.529
Like, but you know, so you see, so you
get it from making a woman feel fantastic

00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:12.769
and then they look at it in this way.

00:35:13.114 --> 00:35:15.044
And you go, that's your praise.

00:35:15.474 --> 00:35:18.264
It's very rarely isn't
words of affirmation.

00:35:18.294 --> 00:35:18.594
Sam: Yeah.

00:35:18.594 --> 00:35:20.674
And to be honest, I
don't always need them.

00:35:20.774 --> 00:35:25.384
Like if, if the other person's like
happy and glowing and they feel like

00:35:25.384 --> 00:35:26.624
they've done a good job, then I'm happy.

00:35:26.624 --> 00:35:26.724
But

00:35:26.724 --> 00:35:28.274
Ali: that's still
acknowledgement in itself.

00:35:28.294 --> 00:35:31.004
Like it's whether it's saying, Oh,
thank you so much for cooking dinner or

00:35:31.004 --> 00:35:34.024
just, yeah, like you said, that loving
look, it's still an acknowledgement

00:35:34.024 --> 00:35:36.814
of thank you for doing this lovely
thing for me, whatever it may be.

00:35:37.804 --> 00:35:38.594
That's important.

00:35:38.604 --> 00:35:42.674
And those things are the first
things to go when you're overworked

00:35:42.994 --> 00:35:44.154
and you become resentful.

00:35:44.184 --> 00:35:46.984
Sam: So sometimes you have to put
the ritual formulas in place in

00:35:46.984 --> 00:35:50.164
order to make up for the lack of
the natural feeling of like, well,

00:35:50.164 --> 00:35:51.834
right now I'm not on cloud nine.

00:35:51.954 --> 00:35:52.274
Yeah.

00:35:52.334 --> 00:35:52.554
But

00:35:53.004 --> 00:35:54.814
Ali: thank you for doing this
thing for me because actually in

00:35:55.284 --> 00:35:57.544
the big scheme of things, that's
actually going to be really helpful.

00:35:57.544 --> 00:36:00.444
So thank you for putting on the washing
or cooking dinner or whatever it is.

00:36:01.414 --> 00:36:03.534
Joe: We'll wrap it up,
but tell me this, Ali.

00:36:03.704 --> 00:36:06.884
What is the benefit of
having a live in man?

00:36:07.334 --> 00:36:09.114
I mean, is it sex on tap?

00:36:09.424 --> 00:36:12.084
Is it someone to give you a cuddle?

00:36:12.474 --> 00:36:15.114
Is it just a warm body in
the bed on the regular?

00:36:15.924 --> 00:36:18.804
Sam: I was gonna say, these undie not
picker uppers, are they at least, like,

00:36:18.814 --> 00:36:20.704
bringing some good game in other areas?

00:36:20.754 --> 00:36:22.184
Like, will they listen to your day?

00:36:22.184 --> 00:36:24.844
Not just for you, but

00:36:25.494 --> 00:36:25.604
Joe: for you.

00:36:26.114 --> 00:36:29.014
Just speak on behalf of
your girls, your crew.

00:36:30.399 --> 00:36:33.239
Ali: There is, it's not to say that,
yeah, like these, these men don't bring

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:34.809
lovely, wonderful qualities with them.

00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:37.549
They, they're, they're, there's
a lot to be loved about them.

00:36:37.589 --> 00:36:37.799
Some

00:36:37.799 --> 00:36:38.929
Sam: of them were even good to look at.

00:36:39.249 --> 00:36:39.339
Ali: Yeah.

00:36:39.339 --> 00:36:41.889
Like they were, you know, or they
were really good cooks and like, you

00:36:41.889 --> 00:36:44.849
know, they just weren't really good
at the cleaning up part or they were,

00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:46.089
you know, such a low hanging fruit.

00:36:46.109 --> 00:36:51.009
It really, but like, I think for
me, like the things that are really

00:36:51.009 --> 00:36:53.939
lovely about having a live in
partner is it's actually just at

00:36:53.939 --> 00:36:55.809
the end of the day, having somebody.

00:36:56.174 --> 00:37:00.024
That you can go to with your
day and it's just there for you.

00:37:00.024 --> 00:37:03.604
And they're all, they're like, yeah,
it's, it's a really nice feeling.

00:37:03.614 --> 00:37:06.804
And the, and you know, you can talk
about your day and then it's like, Oh,

00:37:06.804 --> 00:37:07.944
you've, you've had a really rough day.

00:37:08.204 --> 00:37:09.124
Let me get dinner.

00:37:10.114 --> 00:37:11.194
That is so lovely.

00:37:11.214 --> 00:37:14.204
I would, that is, that would be lovely
because when you're by yourself, you

00:37:14.224 --> 00:37:15.904
have to rely on yourself for everything.

00:37:15.904 --> 00:37:17.524
And it's such an unrelenting thing.

00:37:17.524 --> 00:37:17.924
It is.

00:37:17.924 --> 00:37:20.764
And having just somebody not
to lean on all the time, but

00:37:20.764 --> 00:37:22.594
just occasionally would be.

00:37:23.114 --> 00:37:23.724
Lovely.

00:37:23.754 --> 00:37:24.284
I, that,

00:37:24.584 --> 00:37:25.184
Joe: that's where I...

00:37:25.184 --> 00:37:26.284
No, no, but the time, right?

00:37:26.444 --> 00:37:27.374
Forget about occasionally.

00:37:27.374 --> 00:37:28.414
You're doing it occasionally.

00:37:28.759 --> 00:37:29.299
Anyone can do.

00:37:29.299 --> 00:37:32.119
Occasionally you just download a dating
app, you find someone No, but I'm saying

00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:34.699
like in a consistent, you see them
a fortnight and that's occasionally

00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:35.329
Ali: I can do that.

00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:36.829
What in a consistent No, I'm
saying in a co consistent way.

00:37:36.969 --> 00:37:38.719
Having that day to day,
someone doesn own it.

00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:38.839
That's

00:37:38.839 --> 00:37:39.949
Joe: saying you to sell me.

00:37:39.979 --> 00:37:40.339
Alright.

00:37:40.339 --> 00:37:44.029
Sell me on the idea of
shacking up with someone.

00:37:44.029 --> 00:37:44.389
Ali: I don't, I

00:37:44.389 --> 00:37:47.059
Sam: "Ali, do the impossible and
persuade me to trust a woman again."

00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:47.209
Yeah.

00:37:52.114 --> 00:37:54.944
Ali: I don't know that shacking
up with someone is the way to go.

00:37:54.944 --> 00:37:55.434
I don't know that I would.

00:37:55.434 --> 00:37:56.174
I I

00:37:56.174 --> 00:37:58.174
Joe: guess I assume that I'll do it again.

00:37:58.504 --> 00:37:59.454
I do assume

00:37:59.454 --> 00:37:59.774
Sam: that I'll do it again.

00:38:00.014 --> 00:38:04.054
Joe, you are totally, resolutely committed
to this idea while simultaneously...

00:38:04.689 --> 00:38:06.559
Not truly believing that you can do it.

00:38:06.609 --> 00:38:08.259
So yeah, it's a tough spot to be in.

00:38:08.259 --> 00:38:08.469
But I

00:38:08.499 --> 00:38:12.619
Joe: look at you, Sam,
and it seems bloody hard.

00:38:12.709 --> 00:38:13.409
Yeah, it is.

00:38:13.439 --> 00:38:16.239
And I don't know Cath well,
but it just seems hard.

00:38:16.269 --> 00:38:17.809
Like, it just seems arduous.

00:38:17.839 --> 00:38:18.799
Sam: Well, she has two jobs.

00:38:18.799 --> 00:38:20.849
Like, so, like, I need to mention that.

00:38:21.129 --> 00:38:27.329
That like, it's very, it, the reason I'm
doing more than most blokes is I need to.

00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.899
under the circs like there's just no
alternative either that or we pay an army

00:38:30.899 --> 00:38:36.779
of staff and with what spare money exactly
so it's like i'm happy to use while my

00:38:36.779 --> 00:38:40.649
body and mind are still working well and
i think it's also helping to keep me fit

00:38:40.669 --> 00:38:45.529
honestly and keep me mentally healthy like
that's how arduous it is yeah yeah well

00:38:45.709 --> 00:38:50.249
which is insane to me i mean the fact that
i don't sit around much is really good

00:38:50.249 --> 00:38:55.789
for me and when i do I just stare at the
wall, and that's really good for me too.

00:38:55.919 --> 00:38:56.199
I think

00:38:56.349 --> 00:39:00.580
Joe: that you're, yeah, it's surprising
as someone I met when you were wild, wild

00:39:00.580 --> 00:39:02.430
20, we didn't know about ADHD, it wasn't

00:39:02.430 --> 00:39:03.530
Sam: invented in 2000.

00:39:03.530 --> 00:39:05.050
The level of self neglect was outrageous.

00:39:06.550 --> 00:39:06.760
Joe: Yeah,

00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.710
Ali: like a wild, wild
man in your early 20s.

00:39:10.830 --> 00:39:11.240
Joe: Seems very familiar.

00:39:11.240 --> 00:39:15.500
The most scattered, wild, like, you know,
the only person who seemed completely

00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:19.350
scattered when they hadn't actually
taken acid the night before, that I knew.

00:39:19.460 --> 00:39:20.030
It's true.

00:39:20.770 --> 00:39:25.880
That person now, to be in this
harness of incredible structure, and

00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.620
everything's kind of structured, and
like, no shade on cats, but it is quite

00:39:29.640 --> 00:39:33.210
hard to pin you down for a time to do
a podcast recording once a fortnight.

00:39:33.270 --> 00:39:34.150
No, no, that's true, Joe.

00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:36.700
Because you literally barely
have three hours up your sleeve.

00:39:36.730 --> 00:39:36.980
Well,

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:38.860
Sam: actually, can I, although,
I want to be clear about this.

00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:40.650
You're the one who told me...

00:39:41.035 --> 00:39:42.985
"Freedom is living by self imposed rules."

00:39:43.025 --> 00:39:45.975
And I like, and I was like, yes, yes.

00:39:46.255 --> 00:39:46.515
Right.

00:39:46.515 --> 00:39:52.325
So what I had at that point was self
imposed standards, which was good, but I

00:39:52.325 --> 00:39:55.875
didn't actually have rules  or I did, but
they were kind of unconscious aspirations

00:39:55.875 --> 00:39:57.655
and I wasn't following them consistently.

00:39:58.025 --> 00:40:00.945
And, and this does relate very
nicely to the topic of compromise.

00:40:01.620 --> 00:40:05.560
Because you're not going to be able to
compromise successfully in a relationship,

00:40:05.560 --> 00:40:10.520
even if you want to, if you haven't
actually got some consistent aspirations,

00:40:10.520 --> 00:40:14.570
and if you don't have some consistent
values that you are shooting for, a lot

00:40:14.570 --> 00:40:16.230
of the time you'll be chasing your tail.

00:40:16.885 --> 00:40:19.705
Trying to get your partner on board
with this and then on board with that,

00:40:19.975 --> 00:40:24.885
but if you do have some self imposed
rules So like 12 rules for life that

00:40:24.935 --> 00:40:29.475
yeah, exactly Stand up straight,
clean up your room Yeah, that's right.

00:40:29.475 --> 00:40:30.105
Have you made your bed?

00:40:30.395 --> 00:40:31.185
Have you made your bed?

00:40:31.245 --> 00:40:32.175
have you tried to...

00:40:32.185 --> 00:40:33.465
It's annoying how right that is.

00:40:33.815 --> 00:40:35.475
Have you tried to bring
the patriarchy back?

00:40:39.185 --> 00:40:39.435
Why don't you do that?

00:40:39.435 --> 00:40:43.115
What I'm getting at is the person
needs to have What I was lacking was,

00:40:44.585 --> 00:40:48.755
Joe: I was grafting, I was doing
the, no, no, well, I mean, It's

00:40:48.755 --> 00:40:51.845
always a bit fucking ambiguous,
that's what used to do my head in.

00:40:51.845 --> 00:40:52.155
Yeah.

00:40:52.295 --> 00:40:55.925
If you give me tasks, ten tasks to do
at work in a work day, I'll get it done.

00:40:55.975 --> 00:40:56.275
Yeah.

00:40:56.315 --> 00:40:57.835
Very, uh, diligently.

00:40:57.850 --> 00:40:58.140
Yes.

00:40:58.180 --> 00:40:59.910
But it's a bit vague in a domestic

00:40:59.910 --> 00:40:59.950
Sam: sense.

00:40:59.990 --> 00:41:00.240
It is

00:41:00.470 --> 00:41:00.760
Ali: incredibly vague.

00:41:01.020 --> 00:41:05.230
And you can't then rely on your partner to
then delegate those tasks because they're

00:41:05.260 --> 00:41:08.390
by default putting them in a managerial
position that they didn't ask for.

00:41:08.410 --> 00:41:08.810
That's right.

00:41:08.850 --> 00:41:10.100
And that's the argument.

00:41:10.340 --> 00:41:12.640
Joe: I've just made a friend
from, I've just made a friend

00:41:12.640 --> 00:41:13.860
from Alabama and he talks about

00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.050
.
Do you get many attaboys from Kath when
you get the day's tasks done or is it just

00:41:18.250 --> 00:41:19.210
Sam: unspoken?

00:41:19.520 --> 00:41:20.440
Yeah, no, sometimes.

00:41:20.720 --> 00:41:23.640
Like it'll come in the, it'll
just come in the form of.

00:41:24.195 --> 00:41:28.255
There's a good vibe because things
are functioning, you know, and

00:41:28.255 --> 00:41:33.875
it's like, well, the thing is, but
I've got expectations of my own.

00:41:34.315 --> 00:41:36.515
There's things she
needs to keep on the go.

00:41:36.575 --> 00:41:40.385
There's plates she has to spin, like,
and like, if I'm able to, if we're both

00:41:40.435 --> 00:41:44.035
able to hold onto that, the reality
that the other person is spinning

00:41:44.035 --> 00:41:46.415
plates, everything goes pretty well.

00:41:46.415 --> 00:41:47.985
Joe: There's no day off
from this job, is there?

00:41:48.015 --> 00:41:48.215
No.

00:41:48.295 --> 00:41:49.285
There's no rostered  day off.

00:41:49.295 --> 00:41:50.755
There's no Sunday.

00:41:50.825 --> 00:41:50.935
Nope.

00:41:52.505 --> 00:41:53.855
And that's the part.

00:41:53.855 --> 00:41:57.025
But see, I don't have to worry
about this part, Sam, because I'm

00:41:57.025 --> 00:41:58.535
not about to ever have kids again.

00:41:59.155 --> 00:42:00.655
My youngest is 10.

00:42:01.135 --> 00:42:02.825
She's becoming a bit more self sufficient.

00:42:02.835 --> 00:42:05.685
We've spoken about how the 14
year old's doing the ironing now.

00:42:05.685 --> 00:42:08.195
So she's pitching in, which is amazing.

00:42:08.325 --> 00:42:09.075
Yeah, that's super cool.

00:42:09.095 --> 00:42:11.025
They both get themselves
ready for school, et cetera.

00:42:11.305 --> 00:42:14.485
So the real, where you're at
with the real little ones.

00:42:14.615 --> 00:42:15.835
Sam: I'm making the investment now.

00:42:15.885 --> 00:42:16.355
Yeah.

00:42:16.375 --> 00:42:16.525
But

00:42:16.545 --> 00:42:18.335
Joe: that hard labor period is gone.

00:42:18.335 --> 00:42:19.485
So whoever my new...

00:42:20.095 --> 00:42:23.475
Perspective partner that I'm going to
live with that I imagine does exist.

00:42:23.525 --> 00:42:24.255
You're not going to have these sort

00:42:24.255 --> 00:42:24.926
Sam: of strains to do this?

00:42:24.926 --> 00:42:25.445
He's not going to have

00:42:25.445 --> 00:42:26.455
Joe: these kind of strains.

00:42:26.475 --> 00:42:26.675
No.

00:42:26.825 --> 00:42:30.585
Ali: So it's, it's, it's, you'll
have the energy and the time.

00:42:30.930 --> 00:42:33.000
To be able to enjoy that
time with your partner.

00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:34.590
And so you start to look
for different things.

00:42:34.590 --> 00:42:34.680
Yes.

00:42:34.685 --> 00:42:38.100
And it fundamentally comes back
to how do I wanna spend my time?

00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:40.410
Because your time is precious
and you realize, yeah, I

00:42:40.410 --> 00:42:41.820
spend a lot of time at work.

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.410
I really value my downtime.

00:42:43.410 --> 00:42:45.840
How do I wanna spend my, who
do I wanna spend that with?

00:42:45.845 --> 00:42:49.080
Do I wanna spend it with my family,
my friends, you know, a partner?

00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:49.082
That's right.

00:42:49.140 --> 00:42:50.490
And is that, what is that part?

00:42:50.490 --> 00:42:51.570
Like what am I getting from them?

00:42:51.570 --> 00:42:53.280
What are, you know, am I giving to them?

00:42:53.285 --> 00:42:53.340
Yeah.

00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.100
You know, you don't, basically, you
don't wanna have that time spent.

00:42:56.595 --> 00:42:59.795
You know, arguing over petty shit,
like, you know, cleaning up the dishes,

00:43:00.795 --> 00:43:01.855
Sam: it's such a waste of life.

00:43:02.065 --> 00:43:02.715
You want

00:43:02.715 --> 00:43:04.385
Ali: that time to be like,
Oh, we're going on holiday.

00:43:04.385 --> 00:43:05.905
We're talking, you know,
we're listening to music.

00:43:05.915 --> 00:43:06.815
We're doing, you know, whatever it

00:43:06.815 --> 00:43:06.965
Sam: is that you want to do.

00:43:06.995 --> 00:43:09.605
Or we're just gossiping about
the neighbors and having a good

00:43:09.605 --> 00:43:09.775
Ali: time.

00:43:09.775 --> 00:43:10.595
And having a nice time.

00:43:10.595 --> 00:43:13.565
It's relaxed and you're at peace and
it's, you know, you've become very

00:43:13.565 --> 00:43:18.795
protective of your peace and inviting
somebody into your life to create drama.

00:43:19.235 --> 00:43:21.215
Why would you do that at
this point in your life?

00:43:21.640 --> 00:43:25.840
Sam: All right, preach, preach, yeah,
yeah, be protective of your peace, that is

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:26.370
Joe: good advice.

00:43:26.620 --> 00:43:30.120
I mean, and that's been my journey
for the last 15 16 months, was coming

00:43:30.120 --> 00:43:34.050
out of the incredible melodrama of
the worst relationship I've ever had,

00:43:34.710 --> 00:43:38.290
but also the most intense as well,
with some highs in there as well.

00:43:38.310 --> 00:43:39.430
You were looking for those highs?

00:43:39.460 --> 00:43:39.850
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:42.000
I took the highs, gotta
bank the highs, but like...

00:43:42.299 --> 00:43:46.549
Yeah, in my early 40s to be going
through this incredible melodrama and

00:43:47.629 --> 00:43:51.549
seeing it distract me from my kids even,
I remember one time having a fight on

00:43:51.549 --> 00:43:52.949
the phone while my kids were there.

00:43:52.949 --> 00:43:57.019
I never had a fight in front of the kids
and thinking, Whoa, this is what you

00:43:57.019 --> 00:43:58.969
said at the very start, Ali, values.

00:43:59.259 --> 00:44:00.539
These are not my values.

00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:04.799
My values are not that my kids will ever
see me fight with someone I'm dating.

00:44:05.129 --> 00:44:09.089
They never really have and I never
really want them to, you know,

00:44:09.709 --> 00:44:13.499
and we, We broke up so that they
didn't live in a house like that.

00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:13.779
Yeah.

00:44:13.859 --> 00:44:17.229
So to bring that intensity, this
one time I had a fight on the phone

00:44:17.229 --> 00:44:18.799
and I was like swearing and stuff.

00:44:19.189 --> 00:44:22.049
And I remember my youngest looking
up at me like, Oh, what's going on?

00:44:22.089 --> 00:44:24.629
She sensed the vibe and that threw me.

00:44:24.629 --> 00:44:28.319
It's like, that's when you come out of
the melodrama of what relationships,

00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.719
unhealthy relationships can be and
back into your other life, which is the

00:44:32.729 --> 00:44:36.599
domestic life I have with my two daughters
and go, Whoa, this is, this doesn't,

00:44:36.699 --> 00:44:38.139
this doesn't align with my values.

00:44:38.249 --> 00:44:38.409
Yeah.

00:44:38.569 --> 00:44:40.099
Sam: So, and this is the kind of.

00:44:40.769 --> 00:44:45.639
thing that a lot of women have had to
confront many times in the past and And

00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.339
I think that maybe one of the reasons why
I did hear more than one woman in the 90s

00:44:49.349 --> 00:44:53.669
say they weren't going to re partner, and
I think it had a lot to do with children

00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:56.419
and they didn't have that confidence

00:44:56.469 --> 00:44:56.539
Joe: that...

00:44:56.539 --> 00:44:59.479
But women with kids as well, you've
got to think about the stepdad, the

00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:01.769
stepdad's often going to be the monster.

00:45:01.869 --> 00:45:02.339
Correct.

00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:04.709
Like statistically, he's often
going to to introduce a stepdad?

00:45:04.729 --> 00:45:05.249
Yes.

00:45:07.949 --> 00:45:11.619
Whereas I don't have, maybe I'm naive,
but I don't have that same concern

00:45:12.029 --> 00:45:14.049
with my daughter's meeting a woman.

00:45:14.049 --> 00:45:14.124
Correct.

00:45:14.404 --> 00:45:17.444
And I just think that's a
statistical reality that the most

00:45:17.444 --> 00:45:18.084
less likely they're going to be.

00:45:18.084 --> 00:45:23.564
There's the evil stepmother, sure, but not
so much sexual abuse and stuff like that.

00:45:23.784 --> 00:45:28.074
Sam: No, not as much of that, certainly,
but there might be other resentments.

00:45:28.554 --> 00:45:28.914
Oh, there's

00:45:29.084 --> 00:45:29.714
Ali: resentments!

00:45:29.714 --> 00:45:31.094
I was just talking about actual...

00:45:31.094 --> 00:45:32.587
I was just talking about
damaging emotional abuse that

00:45:32.587 --> 00:45:33.169
can occur between like...

00:45:33.319 --> 00:45:36.469
But in saying that, what you
ultimately hope is any step parent

00:45:36.469 --> 00:45:39.139
is just another person there
to love and support your kids.

00:45:39.359 --> 00:45:42.219
I mean, whether they, you know,
it all works out that way.

00:45:42.219 --> 00:45:44.719
It's been my experience,
blended families is very tricky.

00:45:44.739 --> 00:45:44.869
Yeah.

00:45:45.289 --> 00:45:46.719
And it's talk of talk about compromise.

00:45:46.729 --> 00:45:46.999
Yeah.

00:45:46.999 --> 00:45:47.429
It's real.

00:45:47.429 --> 00:45:48.019
It's real.

00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:51.479
And like, ultimately that was what
broke down one of my relationships was

00:45:51.479 --> 00:45:54.639
that that compromise was neither of
us were willing to budge on the way we

00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:57.509
parent and, you know, and Yeah, that's

00:45:57.539 --> 00:46:00.189
Joe: what about you now, Ali,
your son's just turned 15.

00:46:00.189 --> 00:46:00.759
Yeah.

00:46:01.359 --> 00:46:04.769
Do you, you can all, you can factor
that in a lot less now, can't you?

00:46:04.769 --> 00:46:05.259
Yes.

00:46:05.409 --> 00:46:07.669
It's not so much going to
be, here's your new dad.

00:46:08.009 --> 00:46:10.699
Ali: No, it's not that he was
ever introduced as a new dad.

00:46:11.249 --> 00:46:11.439
yeah.

00:46:11.609 --> 00:46:13.339
Yeah, but yeah, but like.

00:46:13.339 --> 00:46:14.379
There's no figurative.

00:46:14.399 --> 00:46:16.179
No, yeah, no, there's
not going to be anybody.

00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:20.519
And like, yeah, like I suppose
it's, it is less of a factor and

00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:23.254
it will be less of a factor the
older he gets in that, you know.

00:46:23.554 --> 00:46:28.044
You know, whether I then potentially move
in with somebody else and move house,

00:46:28.054 --> 00:46:32.624
like at the moment I'm committed to
being where I am for him until he's 18,

00:46:32.634 --> 00:46:36.054
but like those things and options will
certainly change in the next few years.

00:46:36.054 --> 00:46:36.914
I know that's, that's...

00:46:36.914 --> 00:46:37.304
So you're quite

00:46:37.494 --> 00:46:41.144
Joe: free and liberated and you have
a lot of options in front of you, Ali.

00:46:41.184 --> 00:46:41.684
Yeah.

00:46:41.894 --> 00:46:43.094
But do you feel that?

00:46:43.204 --> 00:46:46.654
Or do you feel like it's all a bit, uh,

00:46:46.664 --> 00:46:47.004
Sam: flat?

00:46:47.084 --> 00:46:48.594
Some of it's theoretical, I guess.

00:46:48.594 --> 00:46:48.824
Ali: Yeah.

00:46:48.824 --> 00:46:49.174
Some of it.

00:46:49.174 --> 00:46:50.284
Look, I mean, honestly, like.

00:46:51.309 --> 00:46:54.329
There's equal parts of me that really
enjoy going out and meeting new

00:46:54.329 --> 00:46:57.659
people, I really enjoy that, having
a really fun time, it's all, it's,

00:46:57.659 --> 00:46:59.199
dating can be really, really fun.

00:46:59.549 --> 00:47:03.059
It also comes along with a lot of
crap, like, you know, and dealing

00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:06.519
with ghosting and people treating you
badly, or like, you know, just not

00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:09.829
respectfully, or just, oh yeah, you
don't, for whatever reason, you know,

00:47:10.259 --> 00:47:14.149
something bad happens and it's not great,
you have to take that risk when putting

00:47:14.149 --> 00:47:18.709
yourself out there, but, so yeah, but
on the whole, I'm very much willing to.

00:47:19.574 --> 00:47:22.554
Not, well, it's not a compromise, but
it's very much willing to, you know,

00:47:22.564 --> 00:47:26.594
accept that that's the reality of,
of dating these days, but I'm also

00:47:27.044 --> 00:47:29.344
very comfortable in my own space.

00:47:29.434 --> 00:47:32.194
I'm just as happy to be at home
with a cat on a Saturday night.

00:47:32.194 --> 00:47:32.574
Yeah, so you've

00:47:32.604 --> 00:47:36.674
Joe: got the one cat, so you've, you've,
you've got one foot in the cat lady camp.

00:47:36.884 --> 00:47:37.274
Yeah.

00:47:37.724 --> 00:47:41.444
But see, I can see you being genuinely
happy with cat lady, but me as

00:47:42.354 --> 00:47:45.744
curmudgeonly old sports watching
guy, I'm not cool with that really.

00:47:45.754 --> 00:47:47.184
Like, I joke about it, but.

00:47:47.984 --> 00:47:50.624
Uh, that's not a happy future
for me, you know, I don't have

00:47:50.644 --> 00:47:52.994
the equivalent of the cat lady.

00:47:52.994 --> 00:47:56.084
Whereas I genuinely sense with
you that you'll give it a few

00:47:56.084 --> 00:47:59.544
more years and if men are still
disappointing you, fuck it, cat lady.

00:47:59.754 --> 00:48:00.574
Sam: Yeah, exactly.

00:48:00.754 --> 00:48:01.044
Yeah.

00:48:01.044 --> 00:48:01.804
It's interesting.

00:48:01.814 --> 00:48:05.004
I think I just, you've Joe, you've
helped me put my finger on an unconscious

00:48:05.004 --> 00:48:08.534
thought that has been lingering here
this whole time and I finally got it.

00:48:08.694 --> 00:48:09.724
Oh, it was bugging me.

00:48:09.934 --> 00:48:14.043
We need to state the unstated thing
here, which is if Ali decides.

00:48:14.266 --> 00:48:19.716
And her girlfriends decide as a
cohort, they're out and you can see

00:48:19.716 --> 00:48:21.276
the reasons why she's laid them out.

00:48:21.436 --> 00:48:23.376
There's other ones you haven't
even gotten into, right?

00:48:23.826 --> 00:48:26.046
Plenty, any, no shortage
of reasons, right?

00:48:26.806 --> 00:48:33.046
Over on your ledger, Joe, you and other
men, you and yeah, the pool gets smaller.

00:48:33.326 --> 00:48:36.946
You and other men in our cohort, cause
you know, we're pretty much the same age.

00:48:38.631 --> 00:48:41.561
I could, I can certainly relate
as much as I'll hang shit on

00:48:41.561 --> 00:48:42.811
you for the test cricket thing.

00:48:43.071 --> 00:48:45.671
Like I've got other things, other
things like that that I could be

00:48:45.671 --> 00:48:49.001
aiming or totally there's other things
I could indulge in, you know, given

00:48:49.001 --> 00:48:50.751
the, given the circumstances, right.

00:48:50.821 --> 00:48:53.951
And I could see myself, I was thinking
about this earlier, like, okay, I'm

00:48:53.951 --> 00:48:57.581
going to try and put my feet in the
shoes of someone who's like thinking

00:48:57.581 --> 00:49:01.121
about repartnering or not, or even
just having like a steady or whatever.

00:49:01.151 --> 00:49:01.961
What would that be like?

00:49:01.961 --> 00:49:03.061
And what would I not?

00:49:03.138 --> 00:49:06.838
What would I, what would my demands
be  for myself going into it?

00:49:06.838 --> 00:49:10.398
What am I, am I just going to see
how this goes or am I going to be

00:49:10.398 --> 00:49:11.858
clear and upfront about things?

00:49:11.868 --> 00:49:15.468
And I was like, yeah, I think with all the
therapy I've done, I'm going to find it

00:49:15.658 --> 00:49:19.668
quite a lot easier than most people just
to say, here's what I know about myself,

00:49:20.108 --> 00:49:24.363
and like, it might be a bit ASD for some
people probably wouldn't like it, but.

00:49:25.033 --> 00:49:28.413
At the end of the day though, and that's
all very well, I can do all that honesty.

00:49:28.803 --> 00:49:32.003
I'll be pretty good at keeping the
communication door open and saying,

00:49:32.773 --> 00:49:36.053
here, here's some unstated assumptions
that might've been operating here.

00:49:36.053 --> 00:49:37.803
And do we need these or not?

00:49:37.803 --> 00:49:38.823
And should we throw these out?

00:49:39.073 --> 00:49:42.308
So I think I'll be good at all that
kind of work, but it comes down to this.

00:49:42.308 --> 00:49:47.255
We, we seem to know at the moment
that men don't do as well, like

00:49:47.355 --> 00:49:51.125
heading into the older years and
that's what it all comes down to.

00:49:51.465 --> 00:49:52.345
So I think.

00:49:52.405 --> 00:49:52.465
Yeah.

00:49:52.945 --> 00:49:56.582
Out of these two groups, men and women,
uh, assuming that we're gonna go with

00:49:56.582 --> 00:49:58.952
that binary for the time being we always

00:49:58.952 --> 00:50:00.512
Joe: do on this show,
Sam and I appreciate it.

00:50:00.542 --> 00:50:00.872
Yeah, that's right.

00:50:01.232 --> 00:50:02.822
, but, but men, binary thinker.

00:50:02.912 --> 00:50:03.842
Sam: That's binary thinkers,

00:50:03.932 --> 00:50:05.372
but men and women, 40 plus.

00:50:05.431 --> 00:50:08.881
contemplating this whether to
partner or even have a steady Yeah.

00:50:08.941 --> 00:50:11.041
Live in some of the
time or all of the time.

00:50:11.268 --> 00:50:13.878
Men I think will be more.

00:50:14.630 --> 00:50:17.250
What I'm trying to get at, Joe, I
think the men are going to have to

00:50:17.250 --> 00:50:18.890
do more compromising than the women.

00:50:18.890 --> 00:50:20.370
I think that's what it comes down to.

00:50:20.830 --> 00:50:26.175
And I think it's more important for men's
long term health physically and mentally.

00:50:26.565 --> 00:50:29.255
And I think if the men are not
willing to make the necessary

00:50:29.255 --> 00:50:30.555
compromises, well, good luck.

00:50:30.565 --> 00:50:30.825
Yeah.

00:50:30.835 --> 00:50:31.855
That's what I'm going to say.

00:50:32.005 --> 00:50:35.235
Joe: I, yeah, physically, I only have
to look at my diet as a single guy

00:50:35.245 --> 00:50:39.815
and know that I would be healthier if
someone was watching what I lived on.

00:50:40.615 --> 00:50:43.755
And not even saying anything,
just observing in that way

00:50:43.755 --> 00:50:44.925
women are so good at doing.

00:50:44.925 --> 00:50:45.695
Sam: Silent accountability.

00:50:45.695 --> 00:50:46.095
Oh, where's

00:50:46.095 --> 00:50:46.875
Ali: the vegetable?

00:50:47.755 --> 00:50:48.705
Joe: Just the raised eyebrow.

00:50:48.965 --> 00:50:49.925
Oh, okay.

00:50:49.975 --> 00:50:50.425
Yeah.

00:50:50.695 --> 00:50:51.135
Yeah.

00:50:51.135 --> 00:50:52.415
Okay, you're having that again.

00:50:52.525 --> 00:50:53.385
Yeah, cool.

00:50:53.425 --> 00:50:54.945
And uh, yeah, I know.

00:50:55.725 --> 00:50:56.165
Sam: Anyway.

00:50:56.215 --> 00:50:57.185
Joe: No, exactly right, Joe.

00:50:57.265 --> 00:50:57.985
Yeah, I think you're right.

00:50:58.205 --> 00:51:01.075
I met someone recently when I
was traveling in her late fifties

00:51:01.195 --> 00:51:05.525
and she's, she's dating and
she's like so many women I find.

00:51:06.120 --> 00:51:09.160
Like, she's been successful in her career
and whatever, she's traveling the world

00:51:09.160 --> 00:51:13.640
and she's dating, but her life is like,
I've got tango class and then I've got

00:51:13.680 --> 00:51:17.830
book club and then I've got gardening
group and that's somewhere she's been

00:51:17.830 --> 00:51:20.680
for like three months, she hasn't even
lived there, she's got all this stuff

00:51:20.680 --> 00:51:22.020
lined up every night of the week.

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.470
And that's classic for women,
I think, single women, right?

00:51:25.470 --> 00:51:28.859
Whereas a bloke will be
like, yeah, there's some...

00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:33.780
There's some footy on at four o'clock
and it's like, between now and

00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:34.850
four o'clock, what are you doing?

00:51:34.910 --> 00:51:35.520
I don't know.

00:51:35.680 --> 00:51:35.920
Yeah.

00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.140
Yeah.

00:51:36.140 --> 00:51:36.500
That's right.

00:51:36.500 --> 00:51:37.960
And I'm that guy, kind of.

00:51:38.160 --> 00:51:40.770
Sam: And there might be some
other men there and I might

00:51:40.790 --> 00:51:42.330
socialize with them a little bit.

00:51:42.510 --> 00:51:42.790
Yeah.

00:51:42.790 --> 00:51:42.820
And

00:51:44.580 --> 00:51:48.640
Joe: then the men who are successful
are the men who go to the tango

00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:50.540
classes and the book groups.

00:51:50.550 --> 00:51:51.030
Big time.

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:51.280
Right.

00:51:51.330 --> 00:51:54.230
And that's, I'm staring
down the barrel of Anita.

00:51:54.240 --> 00:51:55.330
Talk about low hanging fruit, Ali.

00:51:55.980 --> 00:51:58.250
But it's like, I need to
either lock someone down.

00:51:58.620 --> 00:52:03.230
Yeah, who likes test cricket or I
need to, I'm going to have to push

00:52:03.230 --> 00:52:06.490
myself out there to do the line
dancing, which I don't want to do.

00:52:06.490 --> 00:52:06.860
Right.

00:52:06.870 --> 00:52:09.190
So I'd rather lock someone down.

00:52:09.370 --> 00:52:09.520
We'll

00:52:09.520 --> 00:52:10.220
Sam: look at it this way.

00:52:10.230 --> 00:52:14.526
The test cricket thing is, I'm going to
say it makes it a slightly more difficult

00:52:14.546 --> 00:52:16.556
sell, but I'm a confident salesperson.

00:52:16.556 --> 00:52:19.966
So I'm going to take this case on and
I'm going to put a positive spin on it.

00:52:20.036 --> 00:52:24.558
What I'm going to say is Joe, you
know, values his quiet leisure time

00:52:24.948 --> 00:52:30.001
and is very understanding All of
your needs in that respect, right?

00:52:30.231 --> 00:52:33.151
And so you're going to, you know,
if you partner up with Joe, you're

00:52:33.151 --> 00:52:35.051
going to have, you're going to
have time for your tango class.

00:52:35.271 --> 00:52:38.781
You're going to, well, no, that too,
but you're going to have the option to

00:52:38.781 --> 00:52:40.831
just be unavailable for seven hours.

00:52:41.461 --> 00:52:42.241
Like often.

00:52:43.131 --> 00:52:44.861
And that's what he will be
completely understanding.

00:52:44.861 --> 00:52:46.061
Joe: And that's what,
and what Allie read out.

00:52:46.151 --> 00:52:47.381
Yeah, that's what we're talking about.

00:52:47.381 --> 00:52:48.581
You have separate holidays.

00:52:48.581 --> 00:52:51.311
You have, and it's like,
that's the same thing.

00:52:51.311 --> 00:52:55.391
It's like, well, you know, on
Saturday I'm gonna be doing that.

00:52:55.391 --> 00:52:59.701
So you go and do your thing, your
fucking pottery class or whatever.

00:52:59.761 --> 00:53:00.061
Yeah.

00:53:00.301 --> 00:53:01.861
Uh, or I don't drink.

00:53:01.861 --> 00:53:03.421
You go on that winery tour.

00:53:03.481 --> 00:53:03.691
Yeah.

00:53:03.721 --> 00:53:04.831
I'll be just right here.

00:53:04.951 --> 00:53:05.011
Yeah.

00:53:05.071 --> 00:53:08.161
And then on Sunday I'll come and pick
you up when you've got a hangover.

00:53:08.281 --> 00:53:08.491
Yeah.

00:53:08.551 --> 00:53:09.121
Blah, blah, blah.

00:53:09.151 --> 00:53:09.511
So there's

00:53:09.511 --> 00:53:11.701
Sam: ways, because the last thing
you would want is like a girlfriend

00:53:11.706 --> 00:53:15.130
that is like, Oh, I've made all
these plans for the weekend.

00:53:15.350 --> 00:53:15.590
Ali: Yeah.

00:53:15.590 --> 00:53:17.090
And you're like, Oh, there's the cricket.

00:53:17.720 --> 00:53:18.460
And you're like, what am I going to do?

00:53:18.780 --> 00:53:18.870
Joe: Yeah.

00:53:18.870 --> 00:53:19.190
Yeah.

00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:19.550
Yeah.

00:53:19.550 --> 00:53:20.750
But then I just break up with them.

00:53:21.030 --> 00:53:21.510
Sam: Well, yeah.

00:53:21.750 --> 00:53:23.560
No, but, but here's what
you do instead, right?

00:53:23.610 --> 00:53:24.030
Yeah.

00:53:24.030 --> 00:53:24.400
Joe: Right.

00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:24.690
Yeah.

00:53:24.970 --> 00:53:25.020
Okay.

00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:25.920
I'm listening.

00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:26.390
Sam: Okay.

00:53:26.850 --> 00:53:27.910
Bill Burr said it best.

00:53:28.615 --> 00:53:31.645
Hey, you know, Hey boys, how often
have you thought to yourself when

00:53:31.645 --> 00:53:33.275
she says, let's go to brunch.

00:53:33.315 --> 00:53:34.765
And like, you're screaming inside.

00:53:34.765 --> 00:53:35.905
No, no, no.

00:53:36.525 --> 00:53:38.865
Let's go to brunch and then let's go
to bed, bath and beyond or whatever.

00:53:38.865 --> 00:53:39.075
Right.

00:53:41.355 --> 00:53:43.735
And then you are screaming
to yourself inside.

00:53:43.765 --> 00:53:44.735
No, no, no.

00:53:45.165 --> 00:53:47.605
But you don't do that because
you're afraid of dying alone.

00:53:47.915 --> 00:53:50.615
So you go to Bed, Bath Beyond
and you just silently hate her.

00:53:51.025 --> 00:53:54.155
And then,  Bill's like,
don't do that to yourself.

00:53:54.585 --> 00:53:57.235
Just say, like when you're doing
a customer service call and the

00:53:57.235 --> 00:54:00.405
person is obstinately not being
helpful, you don't get angry at them.

00:54:00.695 --> 00:54:02.895
You just say, this is unacceptable to me.

00:54:04.425 --> 00:54:04.995
You say it calmly.

00:54:06.195 --> 00:54:06.845
You say it firmly.

00:54:07.845 --> 00:54:10.815
And you say, would you like to go
to brunch and then Bed, Bath Beyond?

00:54:11.640 --> 00:54:12.750
This is unacceptable to me.

00:54:13.680 --> 00:54:14.380
Absolutely not.

00:54:15.570 --> 00:54:16.800
And nothing personal.

00:54:17.150 --> 00:54:18.100
I just don't want to do that.

00:54:18.775 --> 00:54:19.795
And I hope you'll understand, but

00:54:19.965 --> 00:54:23.595
Ali: that similarly, like I found
myself doing those sorts of things

00:54:23.595 --> 00:54:26.965
and like, yeah, like I activities
that I historically would have been

00:54:26.965 --> 00:54:28.315
like, yeah, I'll go along with that.

00:54:28.515 --> 00:54:29.845
No, I don't want to do that anymore.

00:54:29.845 --> 00:54:31.655
No, I'm not going to spend
my weekends doing that.

00:54:31.665 --> 00:54:32.685
I'm going to do the things I want to do.

00:54:32.745 --> 00:54:35.925
Sam: And women will say this,
that they, you know, that they've

00:54:36.195 --> 00:54:37.365
really compromised for others.

00:54:37.395 --> 00:54:40.045
They've done things they didn't want
to do, that we've been socialized

00:54:40.045 --> 00:54:40.995
to be agreeable, et cetera.

00:54:41.055 --> 00:54:41.225
Yeah.

00:54:41.815 --> 00:54:45.555
I think a lot of men are just not
willing to admit the amount of stuff

00:54:45.585 --> 00:54:49.355
they do they don't actually want to
do and I think it's just all parties

00:54:49.355 --> 00:54:50.555
have to be more honest about this.

00:54:50.585 --> 00:54:55.005
I think, so some men are clever enough
to go, I need to be agreeable even if

00:54:55.005 --> 00:54:59.105
I wasn't as socialized as strongly, but
then you might develop some resentment.

00:54:59.115 --> 00:55:02.515
So what you do instead is you just say,
eh, I kind of don't feel like doing that.

00:55:02.564 --> 00:55:04.334
or I did that last weekend.

00:55:04.534 --> 00:55:05.134
I'm good.

00:55:05.509 --> 00:55:07.549
I think I'd like to do this instead.

00:55:07.549 --> 00:55:07.659
I

00:55:07.659 --> 00:55:09.639
Joe: do that without the
diplomacy and that's the problem.

00:55:10.219 --> 00:55:11.649
I mean, I feel like
you've got a role model.

00:55:11.649 --> 00:55:14.519
I don't know how personal you want to get,
but you have a role model in your mum who

00:55:14.589 --> 00:55:16.559
is quite independent in a relationship.

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:17.069
Yeah.

00:55:17.109 --> 00:55:19.129
I mean, story you told me was that.

00:55:19.574 --> 00:55:22.034
There was a house booked and she's
like, I'm not going to that because

00:55:22.034 --> 00:55:23.899
I don't want to be on the same
roof as the whole and do something

00:55:23.899 --> 00:55:27.634
else and she goes overseas, right?

00:55:28.044 --> 00:55:28.804
So you've actually...

00:55:29.864 --> 00:55:30.184
She's only

00:55:30.184 --> 00:55:33.334
Ali: started doing that because she, this
is a woman who's compromised her whole

00:55:33.334 --> 00:55:35.794
life and compromised and sacrificed a lot.

00:55:36.024 --> 00:55:38.414
Finally got to a point where the
kids were old enough and were off

00:55:38.434 --> 00:55:41.124
the, you know, and that she didn't
have that responsibility anymore.

00:55:41.749 --> 00:55:44.559
So she finally had the time and
the means to be able to do the

00:55:44.569 --> 00:55:45.809
things she wanted when she did.

00:55:45.809 --> 00:55:47.169
And she absolutely took that opportunity.

00:55:47.179 --> 00:55:50.699
And I mean, when I was younger, I was
like, Oh my God, like part of me thought,

00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:51.919
Oh my God, this is really selfish.

00:55:51.919 --> 00:55:54.989
So this, but now I'm like, no, she
is my biggest hero in that regard.

00:55:54.989 --> 00:55:56.679
Like, I think that's
amazing that she does that.

00:55:56.709 --> 00:55:58.779
And I, I would want that for myself.

00:55:59.069 --> 00:56:01.939
I think if I had the time and the
money and the resources to be able

00:56:01.939 --> 00:56:02.839
to go off and go, you know what?

00:56:03.049 --> 00:56:06.819
I don't want to go on a family
holiday, you know, with everybody for,

00:56:07.122 --> 00:56:11.022
If I had the time and money and resources,
um, and you know, yeah, the option of

00:56:11.022 --> 00:56:14.212
like, yeah, you can go on this family
holiday, you know, which is her version

00:56:14.212 --> 00:56:18.222
of personal hell like to be with the
family for 10 days and, and rather

00:56:18.242 --> 00:56:20.172
instead go overseas, I'd rather do it.

00:56:20.172 --> 00:56:20.382
Yeah.

00:56:20.382 --> 00:56:23.512
I would have, I would hope that I had
was brave enough to do the same thing.

00:56:23.572 --> 00:56:24.462
Joe: I think we should leave it there.

00:56:24.552 --> 00:56:28.412
I think that's great that you
have that Ali and uh, yeah, I

00:56:28.412 --> 00:56:31.452
mean, yeah, it's an ongoing.

00:56:32.052 --> 00:56:35.972
It's interesting to me to see
how clearly you guys can see

00:56:35.982 --> 00:56:38.272
how fucked I am in this area.

00:56:39.232 --> 00:56:41.882
Sam: I think you've, I think you've
done a lot of work and I think

00:56:41.892 --> 00:56:43.482
you're willing to do more of it.

00:56:44.462 --> 00:56:48.922
Like, you just never underestimate
that nearly everything I've done wrong

00:56:48.922 --> 00:56:54.012
in a relationship has come down to
a, like a fear of getting it wrong

00:56:54.042 --> 00:56:56.202
and being instantly rejected forever.

00:56:56.972 --> 00:57:00.272
And that might sound odd coming from
a bloke, like, I think we're used to

00:57:00.272 --> 00:57:01.912
hearing women say things like that,

00:57:01.922 --> 00:57:04.742
Joe: but it's But now you've worked
out a system which is basically

00:57:05.012 --> 00:57:10.172
Be consistent and can perform
consistently and you have marital bliss.

00:57:10.222 --> 00:57:13.132
Sam: Well, and yeah, but I'm
like 60% of the way there in

00:57:13.132 --> 00:57:14.892
terms of consistency, right?

00:57:15.512 --> 00:57:17.762
Ali: And nobody's going to be
100% consistent all the time.

00:57:18.362 --> 00:57:18.832
Sam: That's right.

00:57:20.122 --> 00:57:21.972
Ali: And if you've got ADHD,
it's really not going to happen.

00:57:22.112 --> 00:57:25.442
Joe: It's an amazing story, Sam,
because essentially, I feel like in

00:57:25.442 --> 00:57:29.292
this situation, you've essentially
taken a round peg, jammed it in a

00:57:29.292 --> 00:57:31.212
square hole, and it's kind of working.

00:57:31.542 --> 00:57:32.162
Well, yeah.

00:57:32.242 --> 00:57:33.352
You in captivity.

00:57:33.522 --> 00:57:35.652
Yeah, it seems strange
to me from the outside.

00:57:35.662 --> 00:57:36.012
Of course.

00:57:36.032 --> 00:57:37.392
Actually, it's very strange.

00:57:37.602 --> 00:57:39.562
You seem to be fairly content in it.

00:57:39.572 --> 00:57:40.332
So it's good.

00:57:40.402 --> 00:57:41.252
Yeah, absolutely.

00:57:41.252 --> 00:57:41.382
And,

00:57:41.432 --> 00:57:44.512
Sam: but I will say this, like, if
anyone thinks, Oh God, all right, so

00:57:45.062 --> 00:57:49.322
if I want like an orderly life with
a bit of meaning in it, like I just

00:57:49.322 --> 00:57:53.002
have to completely surrender myself
and just, and everything's regimented.

00:57:53.262 --> 00:57:57.737
No, not necessarily because you've got to
keep in mind that I was actually someone

00:57:57.737 --> 00:58:02.617
who was craving That order and like was
looking to a female partner for most of

00:58:02.617 --> 00:58:07.437
my life to help provide that and then
With your help and you know, my therapist

00:58:07.437 --> 00:58:12.257
and lots of other people realizing that
I was capable of bringing that order But

00:58:12.257 --> 00:58:18.012
also that I I didn't just want The order I
wanted to bring it myself and I wanted to

00:58:18.012 --> 00:58:23.272
feel the power and feel the responsibility
and own it and like that and and then

00:58:23.312 --> 00:58:27.152
so that was a way of realizing that
Um, the things that I want out of this

00:58:27.152 --> 00:58:31.982
relationship, well, I should probably be
doing my best to provide those for myself.

00:58:32.412 --> 00:58:37.782
And then let's see what else the
relationship can do if the, those

00:58:37.782 --> 00:58:39.082
burdens are not placed on it.

00:58:39.222 --> 00:58:39.622
Right.

00:58:39.682 --> 00:58:42.612
So I think back on all the wonderful
women that I had the good fortune of

00:58:42.612 --> 00:58:47.212
spending time with like, and the amount
of patience and tolerance they had,

00:58:47.346 --> 00:58:51.426
because I guess of other things, I must've
been bringing something good, you know,

00:58:51.456 --> 00:58:52.966
maybe more than one thing, but like.

00:58:53.136 --> 00:58:56.746
Imagine how much better it could have
been, like, knowing what I know now.

00:58:56.756 --> 00:58:59.156
Ali: Oh yeah, I feel very
similar in that sense.

00:58:59.166 --> 00:59:02.856
Like, if I hadn't known this back then,
but it's just not the way it works.

00:59:02.936 --> 00:59:05.546
And there were a lot of things
that I thought were like, Oh, how

00:59:05.576 --> 00:59:08.856
dare you bust my balls about the
amount of video games I'm playing.

00:59:09.006 --> 00:59:11.486
And like now, I'm like, yeah.

00:59:12.166 --> 00:59:15.456
That is something I should be willing
to compromise on and I am in fact,

00:59:15.696 --> 00:59:16.886
and look, I've done it already.

00:59:16.886 --> 00:59:19.486
And like, cause I think we have
to be very serious with ourselves,

00:59:19.486 --> 00:59:23.186
Joe, about what we sorting out,
what we really want and what's just

00:59:23.206 --> 00:59:25.136
perversion and neurosis, you know.

00:59:25.206 --> 00:59:28.196
Joe: I'm a basket case, but hey, I'm
working on a lot of stuff, but the one

00:59:28.196 --> 00:59:31.656
thing I'll say and I'll end on this is
the one thing I can take out of that

00:59:31.656 --> 00:59:36.656
traumatic relationship that God knows
has been an obsession on this podcast.

00:59:36.656 --> 00:59:37.016
Sam: Yeah.

00:59:37.223 --> 00:59:38.353
That was really positive.

00:59:38.593 --> 00:59:40.643
This pod is owed to that
person, actually, in a way.

00:59:40.743 --> 00:59:42.883
Joe: Totally, as is a lot
of things in my life at the

00:59:43.113 --> 00:59:45.003
moment, which is fucking weird.

00:59:45.003 --> 00:59:46.583
Thank you, Weird Lady from Byron.

00:59:47.117 --> 00:59:51.257
the one thing I'd say that I want to
do again, that worked incredibly well

00:59:51.257 --> 00:59:58.077
and had zero negative side effects, was
learning to cook something so that I could

00:59:58.077 --> 01:00:00.377
cook that person a really nice dinner.

01:00:00.887 --> 01:00:03.507
And they would watch me get stressed.

01:00:03.927 --> 01:00:07.807
Finding the ingredients, get stressed
trying to cook it, and it would come

01:00:07.807 --> 01:00:14.057
out 90% okay, and the like, happiness
that brought that other person, because

01:00:14.067 --> 01:00:16.197
they could see, and I think women...

01:00:17.032 --> 01:00:21.002
Let's not generalise, but women just want
to see you make a bit of fucking effort.

01:00:21.002 --> 01:00:24.872
Ali: Yeah, well that's the thing, I
don't care if I'm the better cook and

01:00:24.872 --> 01:00:28.492
you're not a great cook, but just,
even if someone made me a toasty,

01:00:31.072 --> 01:00:34.122
that would that for dinner because I
didn't have to think about or cook it.

01:00:34.123 --> 01:00:34.759
It does not bother me.

01:00:34.759 --> 01:00:37.552
And I started to do some of that, and...

01:00:37.832 --> 01:00:38.872
That was really positive.

01:00:38.902 --> 01:00:39.662
So I'm going to leave on that.

01:00:39.902 --> 01:00:41.762
Sam: A high quality toasty,
it's not that difficult.

01:00:42.262 --> 01:00:44.802
Okay, so vegans, block your ears.

01:00:45.342 --> 01:00:48.782
Throw a bit of butter in the pan, add
a little bit of vegetable oil to like,

01:00:48.792 --> 01:00:51.752
stop it from, so you can get it to a
high temperature without it burning.

01:00:51.802 --> 01:00:53.312
Ali: Oh, see I put mayo on the outside.

01:00:53.422 --> 01:00:55.052
Sam: Well, yeah, that works very well too.

01:00:55.402 --> 01:00:56.322
That works very well too.

01:00:56.342 --> 01:00:57.592
Joe: You've got to have a sandwich press.

01:00:57.592 --> 01:00:58.622
I'm cutting this by the way.

01:00:59.402 --> 01:01:01.022
Sam: Sandwich press bar humbug.

01:01:01.132 --> 01:01:01.832
Throw it in the pan.

01:01:01.832 --> 01:01:03.302
Yeah, with kimchi in it.

01:01:03.572 --> 01:01:07.862
Kimchi and cheese toasty Alright, we'll
throw the recipe up on the show notes.

01:01:08.032 --> 01:01:10.462
Actually, alright, I'll
add it to the show notes.

01:01:10.622 --> 01:01:10.742
See ya!