Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: hello and welcome to the 10, 000 Things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
Joe: I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, "are we willing to compromise to be
in a monogamous relationship?"
Ali, you sent us something to the group chat a little while ago.
Uh, we thought it was so good, we thought we'd get you to
read it out, if that's okay?
Ali: Yeah, sure, um, yeah, I just posted this, in the group chat for
discussion and, just chatting with one of my girlfriends, if you have
the luxury of being single for long enough and realize you not only enjoy
your time to yourself but really value the spare time you do have, do you
become more selfish or unwilling to compromise and therefore end up alone?
Not a bad option, just a different one.
We were talking about relationships, and even the most happy ones come
with a fuck ton of compromise.
And do you just get to a point where you can't be bothered and
don't want to do that anymore?
Or, do your relationships look drastically different to a traditional live in
arrangement, where you live apart, travel alone, et cetera, to accommodate your own
individual needs within the relationship?
Joe: Hmm, I feel like this is very relevant to the late
30s, early 40s, single person.
So Sam, you're our token married guy.
Uh, so I mean, I think maybe a broader discussion about how to compromise
in relationships, given me and Ali are single, could be good today.
Um, yeah,
Sam: I think that's definitely something worth discussing.
How to, and whether to, which is part of this, and how much you need to, which
is probably the most important question.
And figuring out that's going to be different for everybody.
But I certainly don't think anyone who's going to be able to escape
compromise in this life, um, whether it's with friends or employers, or if
you, even if you run your own business, there'll be compromises involved.
And then, so it becomes a question of how much we feel our true identity
is being traded away and when that becomes unacceptable or not.
Joe: Ali, you're talking about girlfriends who've fallen in love
with being single, like being alone.
Ali: There's definitely that element of it.
Joe: Terrifying thought to me as a single guy, that there's women in this city
who just really prefer to be on their
Ali: own.
Yeah, it's not an
Sam: unappealing...
Joe: Haven't you heard of bros going their own way?
Oh God.
Yeah, I know a couple of guys who've retired from dating at 40.
Sam: Yeah, that's men going their own way.
It's not good.
It's, I, that's not healthy.
I want to refrain from judgment,
Joe: but I'm judging.
Yeah.
All right.
But
Ali: I was going to say like, there's, there's the appealing aspect of it,
but what's to go back to what Sam was saying, I think, and I was talking
to somebody about this last night, the compromising, I think if, if, if,
if you're compromising your values.
That's where it's fundamentally going to fall down.
If, you know, you can make compromises about things that are,
you know, not as important to you or, yeah, you can work around.
Because, like you said, you have to compromise in every interaction, whether
it's work, school, relationships.
There's always going to be an element of compromise.
But if you feel like you're compromising your values, that's
where it's going to fall down.
Like, you're not going to be able to navigate that because those are
so fundamentally hard to shift.
Sam: Yeah, and sorting out the difference between what my core
values are and Whether some of these other things that I thought were
core values, they might actually have been neuroses as it turns out.
And you know, uh, so unfortunately I'm not going to be able to hand
anyone an easy formula here.
I think it's going to come, a lot of it's going to come down to, am I
actually happy with this particular thing that I think is really important?
Like how well is that serving me?
And it may turn out that a thing you think is essential to you as a
human being, and I absolutely must not and cannot compromise on this.
It may turn out.
That is actually a piece of stubbornness in you that would
be much better to let go of.
Ali: It certainly can be really flexible and again, like this discussion we
were having last night about it, it's like, you know, in safe, and we use
the example of someone, you know, with a sugar daddy or a sugar mama.
In that you may not, like in a, in a, the context where it's an equal partnership,
there are certain things you are not willing to compromise on, but, you know,
and, and the example I used was like, I don't want to pick up after a man,
like, I don't want to pick up, but like,
Sam: No one, no man should be expecting that.
Ali: No, but.
If he's like a billionaire, sure, will I pick up?
Sam: Maybe we can talk.
Ali: Yeah, I was like, well, maybe I will pick up your dirty underwear off
the floor, because you're a billionaire.
Really?
Joe: What's, what's the
Ali: logic there?
So you, you, you, that your values can potentially be compromised,
because the benefit, outweighs the
Joe: compromise.
So you'd take cash, like...
Money to
Ali: be some kind of...
So the problem is capitalism rather than actually...
Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
There's a throwback to a lot of women who are just like, I'm exhausted, I
don't want to work, I just want the sugar daddy, where's my sugar daddy?
I can totally, and the problem is not so much a reverse back to the
values of back in the day where women were, you know, kept women.
It's as...
from that dynamic, they're actually just seeking that because
they're exhausted and burnt out.
And that's a problem from capitalism.
Yeah.
And
Sam: it's not like it's necessarily a closely held aspiration that like
they've arrived at after much thought.
Ali: Well, for most women, it is like, yeah, which is
Sam: fine.
But it might often just be a state of, yeah, I'm, I'm ready to throw my hands up.
And just declare work to be a hoax.
Ali: And I just want to be taken care of.
Sam: Yeah.
And I can fully understand wanting to do that for a month or two.
I think, I think most, most people would probably be ready to stick their head up.
You know, at least pick up a part time job after that length of time, like you've
had a little time off, you know, but
Ali: how am I going to pick up a part time job if I'm traveling
around the world on yachts?
Cause my billionaire sugar daddy, that's
Sam: exactly, that's exactly right.
But also the other question that was raised there at the end is like, or is
it very different now with maybe people living separately, et cetera, et cetera.
And certainly that was a thing that was more possible to do 20 or 30 years ago.
because the price of housing.
And I knew couples that were like living in separate residences and
not, you know, grand or large, not even like average size family home
per person, cause that's ridiculous.
But you had your own
Ali: unit or apartment.
Sam: You had your own place and that it worked quite well.
And I remember the friend of a, sorry, the mother of a friend saying to me
years ago, and you know, she seemed middle aged to me then, but she was
probably my age and was saying to me, Oh, we were talking about relationships.
she ventured an explanation for why she hadn't repartnered.
It was in context.
She said, yeah, I've met many fine men, and loved one or two
of them, but I just, I just found myself unwilling or unable to.
Even to say to them, Hey, move in.
I just was not, was not ready.
I didn't want to, and it wasn't like any of them had necessarily placed
any hugely onerous expectations on me.
I just didn't want to compromise at all.
I found myself just, I didn't want to,
Ali: I feel the older I'm getting and the more I date, the more that's
becoming very solidified and it would
Sam: really...
She said that I'm stuck in my ways and I feel like it's
going to be hard work and like
Ali: maybe 10 years ago it would have been a different situation but now
Joe: I'm coming up on eight years without having lived with it.
Girlfriend.
Sam: Maybe you're unwilling to compromise too.
Joe: Well, that's what I was going to say and I think I am.
Uh, I want to be able to watch Test Cricket for seven
hours, five days in a row.
That's not up for negotiation.
Yeah.
For example, that's just one example.
Yeah.
I mean, to miss my footy team playing footy to go to the fucking opera.
So,
Sam: that is a spurious example, if ever there was,
Joe: but, what's completely spurious is what Ali's talking about with
billionaires and sugar daddies.
It's just a way of framing the discussion.
No, no, but for her and her friends having real relationship challenges
and trying to work out how to build a, you know, a structure that works.
This stuff about, I'm billionaire's underwear is a complete distraction.
Oh
Ali: yeah, like, I mean, it's complete fantasy from, like
Joe: an extreme case of, yeah.
Why do you say that?
Like, I find it depressing that...
That women are now saying, oh, I'd rather not work and be a housewife
Sam: or have a sugar daddy.
Joe: Well, I think what they're And now you want to go, what,
back to picking up underwear?
It's gross.
Like, don't even joke about it.
Sam: Well, I personally, I think it's demeaning to both parties, but
Joe, I'd be, there's, He wouldn't
Joe: respect that guy.
He wouldn't respect you.
No, but that's not the point.
He wouldn't want to date you.
He wouldn't want to take you for dinner
Ali: if you're picking up his underwear.
The problem is capitalism.
It's the problem of feeling overworked and being spread too thin and that's,
it's merely a symptom of that.
It's not that people are desperate to have that sort of power and wealth
inequality within a relationship.
They're not.
No one actually wants that.
They just, want a bit of a holiday.
Sam: That's right.
And that's right.
And in distorted times, people will contemplate distorted arrangements.
Joe: That's what I'm saying.
We need to hold our integrity.
Sam: I agree.
I agree.
But can I say, like, I think that if a person's self worth was not bound up with
their job to the degree that it is, then this would be a different conversation.
So like.
I think often one of the biggest areas where couples will struggle
is with work life balance and that a lot of relationship problems,
um, come not so much from personal incompatibility, but a lack of time
and energy to work properly, just like you would in therapy, systematically
carefully work through, various
bottlenecks, distractions, dilemmas, resentments, all the
things that just naturally occur.
And all of those things have to be given quite a lot of time and space
and patience to be dealt with properly.
If you want to get to a good place and falling in love and then having the good
place for six or 12 months is easier than get getting to this other thing.
And so I don't, don't begrudge anyone their choices.
But if, if we're being told that like, your job is your be all
and end all, that's who you are.
And that's what the sisterhood fought for and go in there and be an okay admin
person and let that fulfill your life.
And Oh, by the way, you're going to feel exhausted at the end
of every day and you'll have to negotiate somehow this state of
emotional exhaustion with a partner.
Ali: Exactly.
And yeah, you're going to be like, who's picking up.
You know, the work around the house, who's picking up the underwear, who's
going to cook the dinner, who's even
Sam: going to decide what we're having for dinner.
Ali: Exactly.
And like that, that level of exhaustion I've certainly felt like in living
in arrangements where it just.
You become resentful and a nag, and I don't want Even small things
just turn into huge problems.
Yeah, and those, you know, arguing about who hasn't done the dishes, it's the
bigger problem of feeling like I'm not feeling like you're pulling your weight.
I feel like I have to think about every single decision.
Yeah, and
Sam: this other person doesn't understand how much pressure I'm
under at work, blah, blah, blah.
Ali: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, and those
Joe: resentments and I, these are the conditions, and Capitalism, which
becomes immediately irrelevant because it's like saying, oh the problem
on earth is that we breathe oxygen.
It's like, that's not changing.
So they're the conditions.
And the happy, healthy couples I see actually both have really good
careers, busy careers, and like, the ones that I go, wow, you guys are
making it work, are busy as fuck with work and they have high level, high
stress jobs and they make it work.
I'm miles away from that.
Sam: Okay, look, if you're both home unemployed around each other all the
time, that's going to be an issue too.
How many
Joe: go to work for both parties have been the same since about the 70s?
So none of this is super relevant or new to the 21st century.
You're not working any more hours than someone was 30 years ago at all.
So, I mean, some of this is just whinging.
Like, yeah, alright, you've got to go to work.
That doesn't mean you can't make a monogamous relationship
Ali: in someone's work.
We're still, even though we've, we've progressed from the seventies, like
in a lot of ways and, but yes, we are still both, you know, say you've got two
people working those very traditional heteronormative gender roles of what
is expected around the house still to a certain degree has not progressed.
And that's the problem is that women, there is still a certain expectation that
they will still be the primary caregiver that will be across all the cooking
and cleaning and the household admin.
Really?
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Amongst literally every woman I know, absolutely, there's still an inequality.
I don't know any guys that
Joe: aren't expected to cook and do
Ali: the dishes and look after the kids.
There's real studies and evidence that the mental load of running a household
still predominantly falls to women.
That's just
Joe: thinking about it more.
That's not doing
Ali: it more.
No, it is.
It is.
It's thinking about it and doing it more.
Like that is absolutely...
Joe: I think the argument about whether men should do the dishes was over a
long time ago and men do the dishes.
Ali: No.
No.
Absolutely not.
Joe: Where are they
Sam: not doing this?
Well, certainly, I mean, all I can offer is one worthless, one worthless anecdotal
evidence, which is you'll, you'll never catch me lounging around on the weekend.
I'm always getting jobs done.
And I just, whether that's what's expected of me or not, I don't know, but that's
just, I don't feel like if there's things that can be fixed or mended, or there's
things that need tidying or cleaning, or.
I'm playing with the kids or we're on an outing.
So like, that's how I spend my weekends.
And then when it comes to evenings, yeah, I'm taking care of others.
And then at a certain point, all the chores are done.
And then I've got a choice.
I can like work on a project or I can.
I can go to bed.
So like, yeah, but that doesn't
Joe: necessarily leave a whole example of someone who's still married and making it
Ali: work.
I would say you're the exception, but it doesn't say
that that's the, I think that's
Joe: wrong, but
Sam: I don't, I think there's a fair few blokes that have around these
Joe: parts.
Yeah.
Come on.
No, absolutely.
Melbourne.
You think men aren't doing what?
Sam's talking about.
Ali: They might be doing it, but not to the extent that...
Joe: You just don't meet the ones who are doing it because they're all married
and they're all like tucked away.
But the reason...
You're not meeting them on a dating app.
No way.
They're the ones like me who live on my own and I might leave the dishes
for four or five days and no one cares because my kids aren't there.
Make sure they're clean when the kids get there.
And like, I leave a lot of stuff now to just stay as it is when no one's around.
And this goes to what your question, like what you read out at the start, is like...
You know, the extent of what I'm not willing to compromise
on isn't actually that much.
It's, it's just that I do want that couch time with my sport, and outside
of that, if a woman was coming to my house regularly, let alone moving in,
I would clean more And I would be on top of the housework more, but what I
get to do without that is completely let all that slide if I feel like
it, or if my mood's off or whatever.
And that is a win for me, like that is a positive that I get to just
relax on all that, what Sam's talking about, that constant drudgery.
When my kids aren't there, I don't have that.
I don't go to the supermarket to buy food to cook.
Yeah, I don't create many dishes.
I don't wash many
Ali: dishes.
Yeah.
I think that's the reality of most people who live by themselves.
Yeah.
That, that you don't have the pressure to be there for another person in that way.
But going back to, I do believe that when, that that division of labor
does predominantly still fall to women, and there's so much evidence
Sam: of that, that, and, and I'll acknowledge that there's a, there's
an area where the labor is still.
Um, cause like I'm doing more of the physical, like the grunt work,
um, domestically, but there's, there's a lot of life admin
that I feel like has increased.
And with children, there's just so much paperwork and like on, you know,
emails and online stuff to keep track of, and I don't know if that's evenly
as evenly divided as it should be.
Ali: I, I, I still get sent or called from the school
regardless of whether who's weak.
Like they, the default is to call mom.
That's right.
The default is to send the information, information to mom and then for
me to distribute it to, my son's.
So it's very much that those things
Sam: are so It's not just
Ali: the school stuff.
It tends to triage, like you said, everything.
And it's that mental load that is exhausting.
It's not like, it's not just having someone proactively go do the dishes.
You're like, Oh, can you do the dishes?
You're still managing it.
Joe: But the male mind approaches the same problem to say.
What's the worst that could happen if I tune out some of those school emails?
Sam: Yeah, I think that is actually a valid response.
And guess what, Joe?
A lot of, a lot of...
You still
Joe: find out about the concert just in time and you get down to it and, you
know, if there's a really an emergency, yep, they'll call both parents.
If they couldn't get on to the mum, they'll call the dad.
And most of the things that
Sam: actually...
Imagine
Joe: if you just...
Drop some of that mental load.
That's what I'd advise.
Most of the,
Sam: well, this is, well, this is But you love it.
This is what gets us This is the
Joe: contradiction.
You actually love it because
Sam: you're a concerned mum.
That's a dead, that's a dead end.
But I think where the conversation is more You do.
Where the conversation is more productive
Ali: It's really not.
Sam: Sorry, Sam.
No, no, that's all right.
No, no, it's, I think that there's I can imagine maybe a holdover from your
earlier relationship where maybe there were times when, you know, the mother of
your kids cared more about things than you thought was necessary or even desirable.
Joe: No, no, that's still the system.
Same system Ali was talking about.
School rings mum, you know, the emails go to mum.
She's carrying the mental load about anything school related.
I get
Sam: the emails too, and then they get, I get them forwarded to me sometimes.
It's mostly
Joe: spam.
It's mostly just not relevant crap that they send from the school.
Sam: Yeah, and so, but also, can I say, like there's a lot of women I've
observed in like the school community who will be really on and off with being
all over it one month, and then they've had it the next, and I overhear them.
Seriously, they were all over it.
They were passing on info at one point and now they're standing
there at the gate going, I don't even know what's happening anymore.
Ali: There's a curriculum day.
Sam: Yeah.
And what is this?
I don't understand.
And then it's someone else's job.
One person's gone and said, I'll assume responsibility for these things.
Someone else has said, I'll go ahead and assume responsibility for these things.
And there's not necessarily a lot of communication or
clarification going on around that.
And there wouldn't necessarily have to be.
If both people had a sustainable workload and felt like...
If they could rely on each other, well, then you probably
wouldn't need to discuss much.
Ali: There are things that you might be inherently bring to the
relationship that you're better at.
Just say you're a better organizer.
You're better at doing those things.
So those duties are going to fall to you and they're going to be other
things that the other person is better at, like remembering the kid's
friends names and Pokemon stuff.
So it makes sense that you would naturally fall into those things.
I think the problem arises when.
, the, the assumption that women are somehow better at the organizing and the, see, I
don't even know the arranging the doctor's appointments and all that nonsense.
Like, I don't think women are just, they're necessarily No, they're normal.
Absolutely.
I'm not like
Joe: so much.
It's a general, it's a general trend you can point to
Sam: though.
That's accurate.
But also I think that both couples are, and look, we, we
need, we need to get off like.
We need to get away from couples with children at some point, to
actually just talk about, let's just say, Yeah, I want to get back to the
Joe: question, which, the topic.
Older
Sam: people aligning with each other, let's say, long after the children
have grown up, and they're both set in their ways and used to their
independence, and he likes going on cruises, but she doesn't, you know,
how are they going to figure it out?
But that's,
Joe: like, we're being a bit conservative.
You said, oh, yeah, I remember someone in the 90s who used
to live in separate houses.
It's like, hang on, what about, like, Simone de Beauvoir and John Paul
Sartre, didn't they live separately?
Yeah, of course.
Like, this has been going on forever.
The assumption in the topic is that you'll meet someone on a dating app,
have a great six months, then shack up.
And I just don't see that happening very often, actually.
I think we've already moved past people who've come out of divorces
or had kids or just burnt out by the late 30s and still single.
The, I don't think it is a high probability that the next person you're
going to meet you're going to live with, so I think the assumption of
this topic is maybe just a little bit outdated that, that, that the, that the
fallback is somehow to live together.
I mean, where do you think, Ali, where do you think we're actually at?
What is the expectation if you've, say you meet someone, you fall madly
in love, and the red flags aren't there, and it's been six months, you're
having a great time, is there still an assumption that you would live in the same
Ali: house?
I think.
We're socialized to believe that that's the case.
I still believe that's very much the way we are, you know, that
would be the expectation and those conversations usually do start to
arise around that six or 12 month mark.
It's like, okay, what are we doing?
Are we going to move in together?
Like those things definitely come up.
I, I think where Sam was saying in that, you know, like you were
saying, historically, people www.
engvid.
com Thank you so much for joining
Sam: us today and we'll see you
Joe: in the next one.
Bye.
Good luck.
North Carlton Sharehouse with a bunch of other young women and almost relive my
youth a little bit and be going out and getting bagels on a Saturday morning.
And I, we got to have the best of both worlds.
Yeah, that's fun.
And then.
That got to about the six month mark and it was going to make
more sense to probably shack up.
And then I did my usual thing and just became emotionally
unavailable and ended it.
But
Sam: like...
Sounds like you, yeah, sounds like you don't want to be moving
in and having anyone step on your prerogatives even in the slightest.
Joe: Well, would I be happier if I didn't have the opportunity to be a slob?
No, no, because Maybe I'd be looking around my very neat...
But, you know, look, my place isn't too bad at all, but some days
I will, some weeks I will leave the dishes for four or five days,
and Sam, you could never do that.
No.
But I'll put it to you that if Kath kicked you out tomorrow, the
flat that you live in around the corner might not be the cleanest.
Most well,
Sam: uh, that's an, it's interesting.
I don't know.
Maintained
Joe: apartment.
You
Sam: know what I mean?
I would certainly have the option.
Joe: You would.
When the kids aren't coming around, you can live like you were 21.
So no, it's
Ali: interesting.
I got like dating plenty of men and then you get to see their
apartments and you get to see, you know, and you actually get a little.
Yeah.
You've seen a lot.
I've seen a few, but I've seen
Joe: more pictures.
Hey,
Sam: hey, hey, slam,
Ali: slut shaming.
Come on.
But like some of them, yeah, you see like, oh yeah, they definitely live.
Like a slob or then you say, well, this is my question,
but then there are others that are absolutely like fastidiously clean.
Yeah, there's something very appealing about like someone who has a fastidiously
clean home and you're like, Oh, this is a fully functioning adult.
This is attractive.
Like, there's something very attractive about seeing a clean home.
I can
Joe: mock that up to make my place look like that very quickly.
I'd
Ali: say like these, like, just I'm thinking of specific examples,
they're very much live like that and that's just their day to day.
Sam: But you're not a hoarder, are you, Joe?
So you don't, no, you're fine.
Like on that front.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Look, it's been a fairly fallow period while I've been doing this podcast,
and I must admit there's things like the ironing board doesn't get put away
anymore, it just gets ironing piled up on it in the lounge room and things...
Ali: Ironing?
Who irons these days?
I don't iron it.
I have to get
Joe: my white shirts, white t shirts, very crispy white to go under the tracksuits,
so I pay my daughter two dollars an item.
I've heard that eshays,
Sam: eshays need to be good at laundry.
Yeah.
I've
Joe: heard.
I've heard.
No, that's the only reason to iron the white t shirts.
Yeah.
Ali: I don't iron anything.
It's not in my skill set.
And
Sam: you're certainly not going to be, no woman is going to be able to iron
that t shirt to your satisfaction, Joe.
You know.
Oh, my
Joe: daughter does.
It's fantastic.
Jesus.
Ali: But like, so just so you She makes good money out of it.
Sam: It's capitalism.
Oh, I see.
I see.
But
Ali: I'm saying like, if you shacked up with someone, the expectation is
your partner isn't picking that up and then ironing your t shirts for you.
Joe: I've never dated someone who wasn't a pretty hardcore feminist.
And I've never had my fucking undies picked up, or, like,
Ali: even, a bit, this stuff that
Joe: you talk about, to me it's like, from the 1950s, I have
no idea what you're talking
Ali: about.
No, I'm not joking.
This is outrageous.
And it's not just one person.
It's not one.
We're not talking one.
They said they expect you to do their laundry.
No, they didn't say anything.
They didn't say anything, it just appears there, and you're
like, okay, am I doing this now?
Like, I mean.
And you did the laundry.
When I was young.
Would you like me to
Sam: burn this for you?
I mean, R E S
Joe: P E C T, Ali.
I know, when I
Ali: was young, and I didn't know any different, and like, that sort
of very defined gender roles was modelled to me from my parents.
It's just, oh, okay, well, that's what I've got to do.
But then, you know, since...
This is in the 21st century.
No, well, now, I certainly would not tolerate that.
I absolutely...
Like you can take your stuff home.
You can take, I'm not cleaning up after you.
Or this is how the, you know, do you need help with how the washing machine works?
Like that's about it.
Like I'm not doing that anymore.
And that's become like a bottom line for me as far as one of my values.
Like, so my psychologist years ago, when I found myself
single, he made me write down.
All the things that were deal breakers and the things that I was looking
for in a relationship and the deal breakers are actually things that
are fundamental to our values.
And so, yeah, one of them was like dating a fully functioning adult man.
And that was, and what I meant by that is somebody who can take care of
themselves and put in, in a, on the home front and in an equitable way.
Yes.
I just don't want to do that again.
Cause that's definitely been my experience and I know I'm not the
only woman that that has happened to.
That is absolutely the experience of lots of women.
Sam: And let's say that there was a scenario where, You, you find,
you found yourself doing it and it was not like, um, it was not like
a, a huge like burden work wise.
It would nonetheless interfere with your respect for that person.
And it's just as simple as that.
Ali: And you become resentful because it's like, okay, I don't mind putting on
a load of washing if you've chucked some things on, but when are you ever going to.
Just do a load of washing with my stuff in it.
And then, or even worse, like, you know, they'll, you know, the sort of the, you
know, um, feigned incompetence where they'll deliberately wash something
that is, you know, and do it wrong or shrink something or ruin something so
that, Oh, you do it better than me.
So that job now falls to you.
And I've, again, a lot of that weaponized incompetence is.
It is not just my experience, like a lot of women have experienced that.
That's right.
You're the better cook.
You're better at organizing the kids.
And that was sort of what I was arguing before is that why
is it that somehow women are perceived to be, it's a mum thing.
It's not a mum thing.
Some women aren't great cooks.
Some women aren't good at the admin.
Some women, you know, are crap at laundry.
Sam: I knew lots of women, lots of women growing up, for some reason, I
think people's mums would confide in me, but yeah, they would often say things
like, I fucking hate doing the cooking.
Yeah.
And I'm like, like, oh, like you hate doing it all the time.
No.
I never liked it and never will.
I'm like, okay, like, you know, dad would cook like two nights a week
and mom was just burdened by it.
Like she just didn't like, didn't want to do it most of the time.
She had too much on and even without like a full time job, she had a lot going on
and to keep up with four children and, you know, community work, volunteer stuff.
And she was, you know, as well as running her own little enterprises, like small
financially speaking, but huge labor wise.
And.
Yeah.
And at one point she just like gave up and just, we found easier solutions, let's
say, to the problem of feeding everybody.
And that was a necessary and like useful compromise to make.
And I look, and can I just say, I saw my parents make loads
of compromises between them.
And I think it was not always an easy process, but you know, dad could be quite,
Stubborn and sort of, he would take a long time to get used to new things sometimes.
And mum would worry unnecessarily about things, Joe.
So that was, you know, I'll, I'll pay you a slight bit of
credit for your point earlier.
Some women care more about things than they should.
I actually do agree with that.
it's not as easy as it is saying, here, I release you from the
need to give a fuck about that.
Ali: You don't have to worry about the 45 school emails.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah.
And the thing is.
That's right, and so what this goes to, I think, is like, let's say, even
taking children out of the picture, two people entering into just any level of
cohabitation, or just spending any amount of time around each other, it's one of
the, like, Uh, you know, has you had to do, uh, with your psychologist and
also when you were in the hospital, like auditing your connections and all of that.
This process of like fearlessly auditing our lives and where things are at, what
we can expect realistically from ourselves and from others, what we're willing to,
um, you know, be flexible on and what we feel like we can't compromise on.
Okay.
But how many people are actually really itemizing this properly and
Ali: the first time I was asked to do it, yeah, it was my psychologist
and I was in my late thirties and I'd never thought about that before.
Like, Oh, these are the things that actually really bother me or
these are the things I really want.
And I hadn't really thought about it.
It was more just like, I'm attracted to this person.
I have a nice time with this person.
I'm going to be with this person.
I shouldn't have to think about anything else.
Yeah, exactly.
Rather than actually the practical day to day stuff that actually really does
impact whether you have a successful and happy, healthy relationship.
And.
Yeah, being forced to do that and really look at it and have it as a
reminder and I still go back to it.
I still look at them regularly.
I've got, you know, very clear lists of what I want and what I'm
willing and not willing to accept.
And it really, you know, yeah, cause sometimes you can get carried away
with, I'm so attracted to this person.
And then you have to actually take a step back and go, hang on, they're going
to fundamentally not meet these values.
Because the thing is Ali,
Joe: it's not hard.
My mom's one of these people.
It's not hard to meet.
A woman in her 70s who gave up on men around their early to mid
40s and just went, you know what?
Fuck this.
And I think women are much, we've spoken about this And there's a
Sam: lot of blokes that too, they just don't talk about Well, like
Joe: I said, there are a couple of people I know, my age, who
I've heard the rumour that they've just gone, we don't date anymore.
And I would say that's not healthy because that's a sexual anorexia.
Kicking in in your early 40s, where you should still be having healthy sex and
intimacy and that kind of thing, um,
Ali: But who's to say you can't have those things
Joe: without...
Well, you can't without someone else, generally.
No,
Ali: no, but I'm saying you could still date to have sex
or like see people to have sex.
No, no, they're not
Joe: dating to have sex,
Ali: they're not dating.
Okay,
Joe: and they're just not having...
They've just gone, I'm done with it all.
And I think it's more common for women to do that than men, Because it's not obvious
in this topic that you or all your friends are gonna decide, you know what, yeah, I
will compromise on a bunch of stuff and have a big hairy man who leaves his jocks
on the floor of the bathroom in my house.
I don't think you're leaning, I don't think you guys are leaning...
In that direction, and I'm not leaning towards, you know what, I don't really
need to watch every ball of that test match, that's crazy, of course
I want to go and eat a Devonshire tea in the Dandenongs mountains instead.
I'm not leaning that way at all, like not even slightly leaning that way, so
it's like I would have to be head over heels to give up on my obsessions, let
alone the addiction recovery work and the therapy work I've done in the 15 months
since I was last in a relationship.
Joking about the cricket to one side, like this has been incredible
work that I've had to do, but I've done it as a single person.
Ali: So I would say a lot of these women have made those compromises
though, in their thirties for fertility reasons, as in they would not have
necessarily settled down with that person in their twenties or like 10
years before, but because for a variety of reasons, they want to have kids,
they have made compromises and are now, you know, have made babies with these.
Men, and for whatever reason,
Sam: made babies with these babies, I'll begrudgingly acknowledge
their adult biologically.
Well,
look, honestly, I just want to say like, sorry, Ali, I really
should let you continue with this.
It's an important train of thought, but like, if there's any one
that's male listening to this.
And you're not picking up after yourself, like, please, for the love
of God, do it, do it for your bros.
Do it so that Ali can just one day come on the show and say, Sam,
I think it's, I think it's over.
I don't think there's any men not picking him up anymore.
I think it's a thing of the past.
Like, can we like men, we are holding ourselves back.
We're holding the women folk back with this nonsense, like, stop it.
Joe: And I'll just say I never try and give advice on this show
or tell anyone else what to do.
Sam's quite happy to do that, I've noticed.
Look, I'll say this as if someone's listening to you, Sam,
why would anyone listen to you?
No,
Sam: no, no, no, I'm, no, I'm, no,
Joe: I'm, you can talk about your own experience, but when you do
share advice, it's like, no one's tuned into this cause they're like,
want to hear Sam, the expert on
Sam: blah, blah.
Joe, I'm not actually seeking to influence anyone's behavior here.
I'm expressing a feeling that I have, which is.
I am
Ali: collective sadness for the state of men.
Sam: I'm actually really tired and sad of hearing these retrograde conversations on
the radio, like just the same old stuff.
Endlessly.
Men still aren't doing this, men still aren't doing that.
That's reflecting poorly on me.
And I'm sick of it.
Like, I feel like I'm not getting credit for what I'm actually putting in.
I don't mean within the, these, within this house, I mean
within the broader community.
Like, I feel like because of these other, like, no hopers, that I'm
walking down the street with people looking at me and going, look at
that cunt, he never does the dishes.
Ali: Or is it that, like, have you heard of, there's a phenomenon
about like men wanting compliments?
or Acknowledgement for doing basic things.
Where's my compliments?
Yeah, exactly.
And that, that women, I definitely want praise for everything.
So yeah, you want praise for something that like, you know, look, look, I
picked my underpants up off the floor.
Am I a good boy?
No, whether it's that, or it's just like men, the expect expectation,
I somehow want praise for doing.
The Bare Minimum, which women do not get praise or even
acknowledgement for, it's just
Joe: like...
It's definitely, yeah, I definitely identify with that.
I want constant praise for everything I do.
But
Sam: this is, look, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong,
and I think that a good couple...
Um, I'm just going to say this and people can feel free to disagree.
I think if you are not in the habit of regularly showering the other person
with like, plausible compliments and plausible acknowledgements, and if
you're not doing that, why the hell not?
Like, it's not hard.
Joe: Cause the last few years of my longterm relationship
was like, forget about it.
And by the time we got into couples counselling, it was like
the slightest hint of anything positive coming towards me.
Sure.
There was so much resentment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, but because I haven't gone into a long term relationship again, there's,
there's also been very little praise.
Like, but you know, so you see, so you get it from making a woman feel fantastic
and then they look at it in this way.
And you go, that's your praise.
It's very rarely isn't words of affirmation.
Sam: Yeah.
And to be honest, I don't always need them.
Like if, if the other person's like happy and glowing and they feel like
they've done a good job, then I'm happy.
But
Ali: that's still acknowledgement in itself.
Like it's whether it's saying, Oh, thank you so much for cooking dinner or
just, yeah, like you said, that loving look, it's still an acknowledgement
of thank you for doing this lovely thing for me, whatever it may be.
That's important.
And those things are the first things to go when you're overworked
and you become resentful.
Sam: So sometimes you have to put the ritual formulas in place in
order to make up for the lack of the natural feeling of like, well,
right now I'm not on cloud nine.
Yeah.
But
Ali: thank you for doing this thing for me because actually in
the big scheme of things, that's actually going to be really helpful.
So thank you for putting on the washing or cooking dinner or whatever it is.
Joe: We'll wrap it up, but tell me this, Ali.
What is the benefit of having a live in man?
I mean, is it sex on tap?
Is it someone to give you a cuddle?
Is it just a warm body in the bed on the regular?
Sam: I was gonna say, these undie not picker uppers, are they at least, like,
bringing some good game in other areas?
Like, will they listen to your day?
Not just for you, but
Joe: for you.
Just speak on behalf of your girls, your crew.
Ali: There is, it's not to say that, yeah, like these, these men don't bring
lovely, wonderful qualities with them.
They, they're, they're, there's a lot to be loved about them.
Some
Sam: of them were even good to look at.
Ali: Yeah.
Like they were, you know, or they were really good cooks and like, you
know, they just weren't really good at the cleaning up part or they were,
you know, such a low hanging fruit.
It really, but like, I think for me, like the things that are really
lovely about having a live in partner is it's actually just at
the end of the day, having somebody.
That you can go to with your day and it's just there for you.
And they're all, they're like, yeah, it's, it's a really nice feeling.
And the, and you know, you can talk about your day and then it's like, Oh,
you've, you've had a really rough day.
Let me get dinner.
That is so lovely.
I would, that is, that would be lovely because when you're by yourself, you
have to rely on yourself for everything.
And it's such an unrelenting thing.
It is.
And having just somebody not to lean on all the time, but
just occasionally would be.
Lovely.
I, that,
Joe: that's where I...
No, no, but the time, right?
Forget about occasionally.
You're doing it occasionally.
Anyone can do.
Occasionally you just download a dating app, you find someone No, but I'm saying
like in a consistent, you see them a fortnight and that's occasionally
Ali: I can do that.
What in a consistent No, I'm saying in a co consistent way.
Having that day to day, someone doesn own it.
That's
Joe: saying you to sell me.
Alright.
Sell me on the idea of shacking up with someone.
Ali: I don't, I
Sam: "Ali, do the impossible and persuade me to trust a woman again."
Yeah.
Ali: I don't know that shacking up with someone is the way to go.
I don't know that I would.
I I
Joe: guess I assume that I'll do it again.
I do assume
Sam: that I'll do it again.
Joe, you are totally, resolutely committed to this idea while simultaneously...
Not truly believing that you can do it.
So yeah, it's a tough spot to be in.
But I
Joe: look at you, Sam, and it seems bloody hard.
Yeah, it is.
And I don't know Cath well, but it just seems hard.
Like, it just seems arduous.
Sam: Well, she has two jobs.
Like, so, like, I need to mention that.
That like, it's very, it, the reason I'm doing more than most blokes is I need to.
under the circs like there's just no alternative either that or we pay an army
of staff and with what spare money exactly so it's like i'm happy to use while my
body and mind are still working well and i think it's also helping to keep me fit
honestly and keep me mentally healthy like that's how arduous it is yeah yeah well
which is insane to me i mean the fact that i don't sit around much is really good
for me and when i do I just stare at the wall, and that's really good for me too.
I think
Joe: that you're, yeah, it's surprising as someone I met when you were wild, wild
20, we didn't know about ADHD, it wasn't
Sam: invented in 2000.
The level of self neglect was outrageous.
Joe: Yeah,
Ali: like a wild, wild man in your early 20s.
Joe: Seems very familiar.
The most scattered, wild, like, you know, the only person who seemed completely
scattered when they hadn't actually taken acid the night before, that I knew.
It's true.
That person now, to be in this harness of incredible structure, and
everything's kind of structured, and like, no shade on cats, but it is quite
hard to pin you down for a time to do a podcast recording once a fortnight.
No, no, that's true, Joe.
Because you literally barely have three hours up your sleeve.
Well,
Sam: actually, can I, although, I want to be clear about this.
You're the one who told me...
"Freedom is living by self imposed rules."
And I like, and I was like, yes, yes.
Right.
So what I had at that point was self imposed standards, which was good, but I
didn't actually have rules or I did, but they were kind of unconscious aspirations
and I wasn't following them consistently.
And, and this does relate very nicely to the topic of compromise.
Because you're not going to be able to compromise successfully in a relationship,
even if you want to, if you haven't actually got some consistent aspirations,
and if you don't have some consistent values that you are shooting for, a lot
of the time you'll be chasing your tail.
Trying to get your partner on board with this and then on board with that,
but if you do have some self imposed rules So like 12 rules for life that
yeah, exactly Stand up straight, clean up your room Yeah, that's right.
Have you made your bed?
have you tried to...
It's annoying how right that is.
Have you tried to bring the patriarchy back?
Why don't you do that?
What I'm getting at is the person needs to have What I was lacking was,
Joe: I was grafting, I was doing the, no, no, well, I mean, It's
always a bit fucking ambiguous, that's what used to do my head in.
Yeah.
If you give me tasks, ten tasks to do at work in a work day, I'll get it done.
Yeah.
Very, uh, diligently.
Yes.
But it's a bit vague in a domestic
Sam: sense.
It is
Ali: incredibly vague.
And you can't then rely on your partner to then delegate those tasks because they're
by default putting them in a managerial position that they didn't ask for.
That's right.
And that's the argument.
Joe: I've just made a friend from, I've just made a friend
from Alabama and he talks about
. Do you get many attaboys from Kath when you get the day's tasks done or is it just
Sam: unspoken?
Yeah, no, sometimes.
Like it'll come in the, it'll just come in the form of.
There's a good vibe because things are functioning, you know, and
it's like, well, the thing is, but I've got expectations of my own.
There's things she needs to keep on the go.
There's plates she has to spin, like, and like, if I'm able to, if we're both
able to hold onto that, the reality that the other person is spinning
plates, everything goes pretty well.
Joe: There's no day off from this job, is there?
No.
There's no rostered day off.
There's no Sunday.
Nope.
And that's the part.
But see, I don't have to worry about this part, Sam, because I'm
not about to ever have kids again.
My youngest is 10.
She's becoming a bit more self sufficient.
We've spoken about how the 14 year old's doing the ironing now.
So she's pitching in, which is amazing.
Yeah, that's super cool.
They both get themselves ready for school, et cetera.
So the real, where you're at with the real little ones.
Sam: I'm making the investment now.
Yeah.
But
Joe: that hard labor period is gone.
So whoever my new...
Perspective partner that I'm going to live with that I imagine does exist.
You're not going to have these sort
Sam: of strains to do this?
He's not going to have
Joe: these kind of strains.
No.
Ali: So it's, it's, it's, you'll have the energy and the time.
To be able to enjoy that time with your partner.
And so you start to look for different things.
Yes.
And it fundamentally comes back to how do I wanna spend my time?
Because your time is precious and you realize, yeah, I
spend a lot of time at work.
I really value my downtime.
How do I wanna spend my, who do I wanna spend that with?
Do I wanna spend it with my family, my friends, you know, a partner?
That's right.
And is that, what is that part?
Like what am I getting from them?
What are, you know, am I giving to them?
Yeah.
You know, you don't, basically, you don't wanna have that time spent.
You know, arguing over petty shit, like, you know, cleaning up the dishes,
Sam: it's such a waste of life.
You want
Ali: that time to be like, Oh, we're going on holiday.
We're talking, you know, we're listening to music.
We're doing, you know, whatever it
Sam: is that you want to do.
Or we're just gossiping about the neighbors and having a good
Ali: time.
And having a nice time.
It's relaxed and you're at peace and it's, you know, you've become very
protective of your peace and inviting somebody into your life to create drama.
Why would you do that at this point in your life?
Sam: All right, preach, preach, yeah, yeah, be protective of your peace, that is
Joe: good advice.
I mean, and that's been my journey for the last 15 16 months, was coming
out of the incredible melodrama of the worst relationship I've ever had,
but also the most intense as well, with some highs in there as well.
You were looking for those highs?
Yeah, yeah.
I took the highs, gotta bank the highs, but like...
Yeah, in my early 40s to be going through this incredible melodrama and
seeing it distract me from my kids even, I remember one time having a fight on
the phone while my kids were there.
I never had a fight in front of the kids and thinking, Whoa, this is what you
said at the very start, Ali, values.
These are not my values.
My values are not that my kids will ever see me fight with someone I'm dating.
They never really have and I never really want them to, you know,
and we, We broke up so that they didn't live in a house like that.
Yeah.
So to bring that intensity, this one time I had a fight on the phone
and I was like swearing and stuff.
And I remember my youngest looking up at me like, Oh, what's going on?
She sensed the vibe and that threw me.
It's like, that's when you come out of the melodrama of what relationships,
unhealthy relationships can be and back into your other life, which is the
domestic life I have with my two daughters and go, Whoa, this is, this doesn't,
this doesn't align with my values.
Yeah.
Sam: So, and this is the kind of.
thing that a lot of women have had to confront many times in the past and And
I think that maybe one of the reasons why I did hear more than one woman in the 90s
say they weren't going to re partner, and I think it had a lot to do with children
and they didn't have that confidence
Joe: that...
But women with kids as well, you've got to think about the stepdad, the
stepdad's often going to be the monster.
Correct.
Like statistically, he's often going to to introduce a stepdad?
Yes.
Whereas I don't have, maybe I'm naive, but I don't have that same concern
with my daughter's meeting a woman.
Correct.
And I just think that's a statistical reality that the most
less likely they're going to be.
There's the evil stepmother, sure, but not so much sexual abuse and stuff like that.
Sam: No, not as much of that, certainly, but there might be other resentments.
Oh, there's
Ali: resentments!
I was just talking about actual...
I was just talking about damaging emotional abuse that
can occur between like...
But in saying that, what you ultimately hope is any step parent
is just another person there to love and support your kids.
I mean, whether they, you know, it all works out that way.
It's been my experience, blended families is very tricky.
Yeah.
And it's talk of talk about compromise.
Yeah.
It's real.
And like, ultimately that was what broke down one of my relationships was
that that compromise was neither of us were willing to budge on the way we
parent and, you know, and Yeah, that's
Joe: what about you now, Ali, your son's just turned 15.
Yeah.
Do you, you can all, you can factor that in a lot less now, can't you?
Yes.
It's not so much going to be, here's your new dad.
Ali: No, it's not that he was ever introduced as a new dad.
yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, but like.
There's no figurative.
No, yeah, no, there's not going to be anybody.
And like, yeah, like I suppose it's, it is less of a factor and
it will be less of a factor the older he gets in that, you know.
You know, whether I then potentially move in with somebody else and move house,
like at the moment I'm committed to being where I am for him until he's 18,
but like those things and options will certainly change in the next few years.
I know that's, that's...
So you're quite
Joe: free and liberated and you have a lot of options in front of you, Ali.
Yeah.
But do you feel that?
Or do you feel like it's all a bit, uh,
Sam: flat?
Some of it's theoretical, I guess.
Ali: Yeah.
Some of it.
Look, I mean, honestly, like.
There's equal parts of me that really enjoy going out and meeting new
people, I really enjoy that, having a really fun time, it's all, it's,
dating can be really, really fun.
It also comes along with a lot of crap, like, you know, and dealing
with ghosting and people treating you badly, or like, you know, just not
respectfully, or just, oh yeah, you don't, for whatever reason, you know,
something bad happens and it's not great, you have to take that risk when putting
yourself out there, but, so yeah, but on the whole, I'm very much willing to.
Not, well, it's not a compromise, but it's very much willing to, you know,
accept that that's the reality of, of dating these days, but I'm also
very comfortable in my own space.
I'm just as happy to be at home with a cat on a Saturday night.
Yeah, so you've
Joe: got the one cat, so you've, you've, you've got one foot in the cat lady camp.
Yeah.
But see, I can see you being genuinely happy with cat lady, but me as
curmudgeonly old sports watching guy, I'm not cool with that really.
Like, I joke about it, but.
Uh, that's not a happy future for me, you know, I don't have
the equivalent of the cat lady.
Whereas I genuinely sense with you that you'll give it a few
more years and if men are still disappointing you, fuck it, cat lady.
Sam: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I think I just, you've Joe, you've helped me put my finger on an unconscious
thought that has been lingering here this whole time and I finally got it.
Oh, it was bugging me.
We need to state the unstated thing here, which is if Ali decides.
And her girlfriends decide as a cohort, they're out and you can see
the reasons why she's laid them out.
There's other ones you haven't even gotten into, right?
Plenty, any, no shortage of reasons, right?
Over on your ledger, Joe, you and other men, you and yeah, the pool gets smaller.
You and other men in our cohort, cause you know, we're pretty much the same age.
I could, I can certainly relate as much as I'll hang shit on
you for the test cricket thing.
Like I've got other things, other things like that that I could be
aiming or totally there's other things I could indulge in, you know, given
the, given the circumstances, right.
And I could see myself, I was thinking about this earlier, like, okay, I'm
going to try and put my feet in the shoes of someone who's like thinking
about repartnering or not, or even just having like a steady or whatever.
What would that be like?
And what would I not?
What would I, what would my demands be for myself going into it?
What am I, am I just going to see how this goes or am I going to be
clear and upfront about things?
And I was like, yeah, I think with all the therapy I've done, I'm going to find it
quite a lot easier than most people just to say, here's what I know about myself,
and like, it might be a bit ASD for some people probably wouldn't like it, but.
At the end of the day though, and that's all very well, I can do all that honesty.
I'll be pretty good at keeping the communication door open and saying,
here, here's some unstated assumptions that might've been operating here.
And do we need these or not?
And should we throw these out?
So I think I'll be good at all that kind of work, but it comes down to this.
We, we seem to know at the moment that men don't do as well, like
heading into the older years and that's what it all comes down to.
So I think.
Yeah.
Out of these two groups, men and women, uh, assuming that we're gonna go with
that binary for the time being we always
Joe: do on this show, Sam and I appreciate it.
Yeah, that's right.
, but, but men, binary thinker.
Sam: That's binary thinkers,
but men and women, 40 plus.
contemplating this whether to partner or even have a steady Yeah.
Live in some of the time or all of the time.
Men I think will be more.
What I'm trying to get at, Joe, I think the men are going to have to
do more compromising than the women.
I think that's what it comes down to.
And I think it's more important for men's long term health physically and mentally.
And I think if the men are not willing to make the necessary
compromises, well, good luck.
Yeah.
That's what I'm going to say.
Joe: I, yeah, physically, I only have to look at my diet as a single guy
and know that I would be healthier if someone was watching what I lived on.
And not even saying anything, just observing in that way
women are so good at doing.
Sam: Silent accountability.
Oh, where's
Ali: the vegetable?
Joe: Just the raised eyebrow.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Okay, you're having that again.
Yeah, cool.
And uh, yeah, I know.
Sam: Anyway.
Joe: No, exactly right, Joe.
Yeah, I think you're right.
I met someone recently when I was traveling in her late fifties
and she's, she's dating and she's like so many women I find.
Like, she's been successful in her career and whatever, she's traveling the world
and she's dating, but her life is like, I've got tango class and then I've got
book club and then I've got gardening group and that's somewhere she's been
for like three months, she hasn't even lived there, she's got all this stuff
lined up every night of the week.
And that's classic for women, I think, single women, right?
Whereas a bloke will be like, yeah, there's some...
There's some footy on at four o'clock and it's like, between now and
four o'clock, what are you doing?
I don't know.
Yeah.
That's right.
And I'm that guy, kind of.
Sam: And there might be some other men there and I might
socialize with them a little bit.
Yeah.
And
Joe: then the men who are successful are the men who go to the tango
classes and the book groups.
Big time.
Right.
And that's, I'm staring down the barrel of Anita.
Talk about low hanging fruit, Ali.
But it's like, I need to either lock someone down.
Yeah, who likes test cricket or I need to, I'm going to have to push
myself out there to do the line dancing, which I don't want to do.
Right.
So I'd rather lock someone down.
We'll
Sam: look at it this way.
The test cricket thing is, I'm going to say it makes it a slightly more difficult
sell, but I'm a confident salesperson.
So I'm going to take this case on and I'm going to put a positive spin on it.
What I'm going to say is Joe, you know, values his quiet leisure time
and is very understanding All of your needs in that respect, right?
And so you're going to, you know, if you partner up with Joe, you're
going to have, you're going to have time for your tango class.
You're going to, well, no, that too, but you're going to have the option to
just be unavailable for seven hours.
Like often.
And that's what he will be completely understanding.
Joe: And that's what, and what Allie read out.
Yeah, that's what we're talking about.
You have separate holidays.
You have, and it's like, that's the same thing.
It's like, well, you know, on Saturday I'm gonna be doing that.
So you go and do your thing, your fucking pottery class or whatever.
Yeah.
Uh, or I don't drink.
You go on that winery tour.
Yeah.
I'll be just right here.
Yeah.
And then on Sunday I'll come and pick you up when you've got a hangover.
Yeah.
Blah, blah, blah.
So there's
Sam: ways, because the last thing you would want is like a girlfriend
that is like, Oh, I've made all these plans for the weekend.
Ali: Yeah.
And you're like, Oh, there's the cricket.
And you're like, what am I going to do?
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
But then I just break up with them.
Sam: Well, yeah.
No, but, but here's what you do instead, right?
Yeah.
Joe: Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm listening.
Sam: Okay.
Bill Burr said it best.
Hey, you know, Hey boys, how often have you thought to yourself when
she says, let's go to brunch.
And like, you're screaming inside.
No, no, no.
Let's go to brunch and then let's go to bed, bath and beyond or whatever.
Right.
And then you are screaming to yourself inside.
No, no, no.
But you don't do that because you're afraid of dying alone.
So you go to Bed, Bath Beyond and you just silently hate her.
And then, Bill's like, don't do that to yourself.
Just say, like when you're doing a customer service call and the
person is obstinately not being helpful, you don't get angry at them.
You just say, this is unacceptable to me.
You say it calmly.
You say it firmly.
And you say, would you like to go to brunch and then Bed, Bath Beyond?
This is unacceptable to me.
Absolutely not.
And nothing personal.
I just don't want to do that.
And I hope you'll understand, but
Ali: that similarly, like I found myself doing those sorts of things
and like, yeah, like I activities that I historically would have been
like, yeah, I'll go along with that.
No, I don't want to do that anymore.
No, I'm not going to spend my weekends doing that.
I'm going to do the things I want to do.
Sam: And women will say this, that they, you know, that they've
really compromised for others.
They've done things they didn't want to do, that we've been socialized
to be agreeable, et cetera.
Yeah.
I think a lot of men are just not willing to admit the amount of stuff
they do they don't actually want to do and I think it's just all parties
have to be more honest about this.
I think, so some men are clever enough to go, I need to be agreeable even if
I wasn't as socialized as strongly, but then you might develop some resentment.
So what you do instead is you just say, eh, I kind of don't feel like doing that.
or I did that last weekend.
I'm good.
I think I'd like to do this instead.
I
Joe: do that without the diplomacy and that's the problem.
I mean, I feel like you've got a role model.
I don't know how personal you want to get, but you have a role model in your mum who
is quite independent in a relationship.
Yeah.
I mean, story you told me was that.
There was a house booked and she's like, I'm not going to that because
I don't want to be on the same roof as the whole and do something
else and she goes overseas, right?
So you've actually...
She's only
Ali: started doing that because she, this is a woman who's compromised her whole
life and compromised and sacrificed a lot.
Finally got to a point where the kids were old enough and were off
the, you know, and that she didn't have that responsibility anymore.
So she finally had the time and the means to be able to do the
things she wanted when she did.
And she absolutely took that opportunity.
And I mean, when I was younger, I was like, Oh my God, like part of me thought,
Oh my God, this is really selfish.
So this, but now I'm like, no, she is my biggest hero in that regard.
Like, I think that's amazing that she does that.
And I, I would want that for myself.
I think if I had the time and the money and the resources to be able
to go off and go, you know what?
I don't want to go on a family holiday, you know, with everybody for,
If I had the time and money and resources, um, and you know, yeah, the option of
like, yeah, you can go on this family holiday, you know, which is her version
of personal hell like to be with the family for 10 days and, and rather
instead go overseas, I'd rather do it.
Yeah.
I would have, I would hope that I had was brave enough to do the same thing.
Joe: I think we should leave it there.
I think that's great that you have that Ali and uh, yeah, I
mean, yeah, it's an ongoing.
It's interesting to me to see how clearly you guys can see
how fucked I am in this area.
Sam: I think you've, I think you've done a lot of work and I think
you're willing to do more of it.
Like, you just never underestimate that nearly everything I've done wrong
in a relationship has come down to a, like a fear of getting it wrong
and being instantly rejected forever.
And that might sound odd coming from a bloke, like, I think we're used to
hearing women say things like that,
Joe: but it's But now you've worked out a system which is basically
Be consistent and can perform consistently and you have marital bliss.
Sam: Well, and yeah, but I'm like 60% of the way there in
terms of consistency, right?
Ali: And nobody's going to be 100% consistent all the time.
Sam: That's right.
Ali: And if you've got ADHD, it's really not going to happen.
Joe: It's an amazing story, Sam, because essentially, I feel like in
this situation, you've essentially taken a round peg, jammed it in a
square hole, and it's kind of working.
Well, yeah.
You in captivity.
Yeah, it seems strange to me from the outside.
Of course.
Actually, it's very strange.
You seem to be fairly content in it.
So it's good.
Yeah, absolutely.
And,
Sam: but I will say this, like, if anyone thinks, Oh God, all right, so
if I want like an orderly life with a bit of meaning in it, like I just
have to completely surrender myself and just, and everything's regimented.
No, not necessarily because you've got to keep in mind that I was actually someone
who was craving That order and like was looking to a female partner for most of
my life to help provide that and then With your help and you know, my therapist
and lots of other people realizing that I was capable of bringing that order But
also that I I didn't just want The order I wanted to bring it myself and I wanted to
feel the power and feel the responsibility and own it and like that and and then
so that was a way of realizing that Um, the things that I want out of this
relationship, well, I should probably be doing my best to provide those for myself.
And then let's see what else the relationship can do if the, those
burdens are not placed on it.
Right.
So I think back on all the wonderful women that I had the good fortune of
spending time with like, and the amount of patience and tolerance they had,
because I guess of other things, I must've been bringing something good, you know,
maybe more than one thing, but like.
Imagine how much better it could have been, like, knowing what I know now.
Ali: Oh yeah, I feel very similar in that sense.
Like, if I hadn't known this back then, but it's just not the way it works.
And there were a lot of things that I thought were like, Oh, how
dare you bust my balls about the amount of video games I'm playing.
And like now, I'm like, yeah.
That is something I should be willing to compromise on and I am in fact,
and look, I've done it already.
And like, cause I think we have to be very serious with ourselves,
Joe, about what we sorting out, what we really want and what's just
perversion and neurosis, you know.
Joe: I'm a basket case, but hey, I'm working on a lot of stuff, but the one
thing I'll say and I'll end on this is the one thing I can take out of that
traumatic relationship that God knows has been an obsession on this podcast.
Sam: Yeah.
That was really positive.
This pod is owed to that person, actually, in a way.
Joe: Totally, as is a lot of things in my life at the
moment, which is fucking weird.
Thank you, Weird Lady from Byron.
the one thing I'd say that I want to do again, that worked incredibly well
and had zero negative side effects, was learning to cook something so that I could
cook that person a really nice dinner.
And they would watch me get stressed.
Finding the ingredients, get stressed trying to cook it, and it would come
out 90% okay, and the like, happiness that brought that other person, because
they could see, and I think women...
Let's not generalise, but women just want to see you make a bit of fucking effort.
Ali: Yeah, well that's the thing, I don't care if I'm the better cook and
you're not a great cook, but just, even if someone made me a toasty,
that would that for dinner because I didn't have to think about or cook it.
It does not bother me.
And I started to do some of that, and...
That was really positive.
So I'm going to leave on that.
Sam: A high quality toasty, it's not that difficult.
Okay, so vegans, block your ears.
Throw a bit of butter in the pan, add a little bit of vegetable oil to like,
stop it from, so you can get it to a high temperature without it burning.
Ali: Oh, see I put mayo on the outside.
Sam: Well, yeah, that works very well too.
That works very well too.
Joe: You've got to have a sandwich press.
I'm cutting this by the way.
Sam: Sandwich press bar humbug.
Throw it in the pan.
Yeah, with kimchi in it.
Kimchi and cheese toasty Alright, we'll throw the recipe up on the show notes.
Actually, alright, I'll add it to the show notes.
See ya!