We wanna welcome you guys back to the Grounded Union podcast. For this season three, we have nine brave couples that we're doing live call ins over the next few weeks. So right now, we are on a call on a Zoom call with Drew and Chelsea. You will not be able to see them during this episode, but you will be able to hear from them and they're gonna share their story with us. And this season three is meant to be very relational, very practical.

So as you listen to other couples stories, we're gonna give our feedback and support as best we can during these during these episodes. Listen for the parts of your story that you resonate with. Allow yourself to glean from these couples. And if you're listening on YouTube or Spotify, leave a leave a comment saying thank you to the to the couples that came on for Drew and Chelsea for this episode. So our heart in this season three is just to support couples relationally and directly.

So Drew and Chelsea, thank you so much for for joining us for season three.

Thanks for having us.

What would be awesome is if you guys could give us just, a one to two minute snapshot of your relationship. Why healing? Why now? What's what's top and center for you guys?

So we were married in 2019 and, started walking through infertility and that's actually our story, our testimony of coming to Christ. Yes, we were walking through infertility and eventually we did conceive naturally. I found out when our son was almost a year old, Drew confessed to me that he had a porn addiction. And through that discovery learned that we conceived our son, the one week that Drew was not active in the porn and masturbation. And so that of course was a deep, deep hurt and betrayal for me.

And ever since that, it's just been, I guess, a very slow progression of, you know, there's no more porn addiction, but just catching him, looking at inappropriate images online to then, Hey, let's get rid of social media, him still hiding, being on social media. Hey, you're searching and looking at things that you don't need to be looking at on your phone at all. Okay, I won't do that. And then still continuing. Really like we've seen growth and progress, but at the root of everything is the lying that still is taking place, even as we've walked through this grounded union community and the different techniques and things.

Like I just found out two days ago, for example, that there was another lie. So yeah, that's where we're at right now is how do I, I don't know for myself how to continue in marriage where there's literally zero trust. And it seems like no matter what the situation that he just is stuck in this habit of lying. Mhmm.

Yeah. I was gonna say I always love hearing from like both sides. And so, Drew, if you wanted to share a little bit from your story, your perspective, kind of where you find yourself and then what you feel is kind of the cry of your heart right now for support.

Right. Before Drew goes in, Chelsea, I just wanted to thank you for for sharing that with us. That's heavy and a lot too. So that's been, so that'd been about two years of this journey then?

I told Chelsea that, I had a porn addiction in 2022.

Okay. So about three years, three years. So that's

been a very Chelsea. That's been a very, tumultuous three years then. I just wanna thank you for for sharing, jumping out and sharing that. Yeah. And Drew, we'd we'd love to hear what's been the last three years.

What has been your awareness?

Where

where's what's been going on?

So I was led to confess to my wife in a men's group I was participating in. I was encouraged to do that. I kind of joined the men's group. It was like kind of a change process type deal through our local church and, was encouraged to tell the group what my darkest secret was, which was my addiction. And then, was then encouraged to tell my wife, which I did.

We got saved later in life when I was 31. So I had a lot of baggage coming into our marriage, into my relationship with Christ, a lot of sin nature that I'm just been working out and after exposing the porn addiction, really the deeper root that I kind of protected that part of my life with was lying. And, that has really been the difficult reflexive response to threat that I have that I'm trying to work through. It's something that through being exposed to grounded union, what I can't do everything I can to own. We've had, conversations Chelsea and I about the hurt that I've caused and all of, the pain that my untruthfulness has caused in our marriage and the damage that it's caused.

So what I'm trying to do right now is own all of that and work on why it is that I continue to lie because I don't, I don't want to be that person anymore.

That recoil of like, as you're coming out to heal, obviously you, so you did something I didn't ever choose to do, which was confess to Caitlin that I had been lying. I actually had to get caught, which wasn't even getting a real getting caught. I had, Caitlin had to step into her intuition and be like, something's off. You're lying to me. Your responses are lying to me.

And then she had to read my mind and tell me how I was lying to her because I was such a coward. So the momentum you created by saying, I'm ready to confess the addiction. I'm ready to get clean on this. That momentum will, we'll keep snowballing with that because that is a, you did that out of a moment of clarity where you're like, this isn't serving me. This group of men, this spiritual community I'm a part of is, is, is bringing me higher, and I I I see the fruit, and I I actually wanna let go of this.

And then you took this brave step into sharing it with Chelsea. I think what's interesting is it's very difficult, as you said, the lying component. Because porn and addiction, alcohol, work, workaholism, whatever we turn to ultimately is masking a coping or a pain, a way of navigating life to get through difficulty, to get through uncertainty. And so there's still this soul need it sounds like of like when pressed that you recoil or the reflex, the reflex to lie or to be dishonest or to withhold. Chelsea, I think you mentioned that there was just a lie that was uncovered in the last couple of days.

Just so we have context. What, what was that lie that, that came out in the last couple of days?

Yeah. So actually through doing a lot of different things through grounded union and listening to the podcast and being in the app, one thing that Drew and I decided was he was going to limit himself as far as like being on his phone or using any technology. And if he was going to use it, it was going to either be in front of me or he was at least going to share with me, Hey, I got to get on there to do this. And so that was what we had agreed to. And then I noticed on his, cause my phone and I actually didn't set this up.

He did without realizing our emails are like linked somehow. And so if I go on my safari page on my phone and I have like his email linked, I can actually see the history on my own phone of like what he's looking at.

And

I noticed that on his phone, he had two days where there was no history of him being on the safari on his phone. But on my phone, I could see that he was on it. And so I did ask him like, Hey, did you delete any search history off of your phone? He had told me no. And then it wasn't until a few days after that, that just by coincidence or chance, I was on my phone looking at something and I noticed that it was like logged in to, again, his, it was connected to his Gmail account.

And I saw that actually for those two days that he was on his phone. And so I had to confront him again. And what's really hard for me is he wasn't even doing anything inappropriate, but there was still the lie. And yeah,

I, just really panicked in that moment. And, when I had looked at something and I wasn't sitting in front of my wife, because I just had my phone in my pocket and wasn't thinking, I panicked and deleted the history and then, knew I had done something wrong and just tried to hide it.

One of the things, that's like a major that that releases the pressure because, Drew, I don't know if you do you feel a decent amount of pressure to get it to get it right? Mhmm. Like, you're trying to get it right. You said you had done something wrong. I find that and and we we come from a background in ministry and church involvement.

When we get into know anybody listening, you probably come from we all come from very diverse backgrounds. A lot of times we get into this state of like good and evil, right and wrong, instead of about maturity. And so pressure to do right or wrong and not understanding why we do what we do. It's very unsettling to our nervous system. Our emotions are like, I don't know why I did that.

It was just bad. So I just need to like, kind of like put some dirt on it or cover it up. Instead of, if we look at this, let's just say that you drew, let's just say you can't be bad. Let's just say Chelsea decides to divorce you to leave you and you're left with yourself. You're still not bad.

Kinda like we we still can't we like, you're not bad and wrong in a failure. If it's based on that, then it's like you're never you're gonna be struggling to take clear action because it's always gonna be kind of hinged to Chelsea's approval of you. What I found really accelerated the process for us in healing, especially when it came to being honest, was almost stepping outside of myself and getting so curious about the way I had lied to myself and becoming like, almost like not like teaming up on myself, but like looking at, okay, I created some really healthy patterns. Those patterns are still running in me at a subconscious level. I want to see them.

I'm not going to make light of them. I'll be like, Hey, I lied to you again. But I'm going be like, wow, I'm, I'm hiding. Like I'm running. And when we talk about doing the, like the four R's and rewiring each thought is a, is it reveals like, oh, was running an old system.

So when we make it about right and wrong, it often creates this fear of punishment, this fear of rejection, because ultimately you, you love Chelsea and you're terrified to, to get rejected, to hurt her. What's crazy though, and it seems like this is Chelsea just wants to know what's true is if you said, Hey, I got on my phone, and I didn't talk with you about it based off what we had our commitments to each other, and I deleted the history because I panicked. She might have some questions. She might be like, did you look at stuff? And you're like, I didn't.

I panicked because I didn't I didn't I knew I hadn't communicated preemptively, and I understand you probably have doubts. And I I I just wanted to come to you and say, I deleted this. So I think flexing that muscle of you're not good or bad. You you are good at your core, but making this about maturity. Like, what does it look like for Drew to just grow up as a son, as a father, as a husband, where he's just maturing and becoming more like who you really are and and and just developing those skills?

Because then when Chelsea's hurting, you can you can take the mature route to exploring her pain. The reason you even flipped open your phone was probably because you might've been unsettled or bored or anxious. And the mature version isn't good or bad. It's just, man, I could, I could use a workout right now, or I could use a shower. I could journal.

Like that path just leads to a lot less pressure.

Mhmm. Yeah. Have a couple routes I wanna take this. First, I wanna expand on something that Brandon just said, and we talk about this a lot and it's the concept of lying. And when you have a pattern or a history of lying, it's because you've lied to yourself first.

So in a lot of ways, Drew, you might be like you almost might feel like the lying almost overtakes you because it's kind of on it's on like auto, like, pilot or, like, whatever it's called in the car, autopilot, where it's, like, you've turned it on to cruise and you just this is, a pattern that you've had for maybe a long time, which I'm gonna ask a couple questions, which will provide insight. And then for Chelsea, I know as a wife, it's kinda like, why are you lying about such stupid things? You know? And it's like, why are you lying in general? Like, we're trying to heal.

We're trying to go through this. And so then we get into this mess where we're like, why? I don't wanna lie and I'm lying. And then the other spouse is kind of like, why are you lying about silly things? And when there's that epiphany and awareness of, oh, I'm lying to myself and I have been lying to myself for a long time, we can allow for those parts of our brains to open up and show us where we've been hiding stuff.

And so what I'd like to say too is if there's a perpetual roller coaster of continuing to lie and hide and find out things, I find there's no research on this. There's only there's only Caitlin and Brandon research on this. I find that there's things hidden behind doors that haven't fully been opened yet. So most likely, there's other things that your your own self is protecting from you to to see fully that you haven't come that you haven't seen for yourself and then brought to your wife. So then you can't fully free yourself from this pattern because there's still more behind the doors.

And you guys have heard us talk about this and everyone that's listening, if you haven't listened to the first two seasons, we talk about this a lot. This is the denial structure piece. There's most likely some sort of a narrative that's protecting these different parts of you from fully coming out. So the narratives might be, it's not that big of a deal. Like, not that big of a deal.

I'm not even doing anything sexual on my phone. It's controlling, then we go to blame. It's controlling. I'm not saying that you think this way exactly. You might hear some of these thoughts though, and they might come and go.

It's like, oh, it's controlling that my wife wants to know when I'm getting on my phone. That's controlling. That's annoying. And then that can get clumped into blame. You know, you could play like powerless, like, oh, I am so bad.

Why do I keep doing this in life? Why do I keep messing up? Do you see these different narratives? And always when we have a denial structure playing out, there's something that we're protecting. And so there's something within ourselves that we're scared is about to come out.

And so we're like, oh, I gotta protect this with blame, with shoving something under the rug, with calling somebody controlling, with minimizing, with whatever it is because I don't want these certain things about myself to come out, to be seen, to be known. So when there's perpetually this need to lie, I like to explore a couple things which I'll have you explore. And for those that are listening to the episode, if you find yourself, which you probably do if you're listening, in a similar place where one of you or both of you as a spouse, as a couple, is in this perpetual circle of lying, I like to think back to when so Drew, you could think back on this. When was the first time that you remember lying? You might not be able to remember the very, very, very, very first time, of course.

From the memory that you from the memories you can pull from, when's the first memory that you have of lying? And this will probably outdate your relationship.

This is actually something I walked through with, a bastard recently, but the first time I remember lying was, was very young. I was maybe, 12 or maybe 13. And I had printed some pictures out on the internet that I shouldn't have printed out and hid in my room and my mom found them and she confronted me about it. And I said, I didn't know how they got there. That's the first lie I remember.

Okay.

How did your mom respond to that?

She was incredulous. Obviously she knew they were mine. Were in my room. And she responded by saying things like, you know, you can't be doing this. This is, you know, demeaning to women.

And, it felt a little like she was trying to make me feel guilty in the moment. That's how I remember feeling.

Can you feel I mean, that's a fairly, like, significant memory, especially like it being your mom too, then giving you a slap on the wrist. What, you said you felt guilt. Can you, like, feel like, I feel like I can feel like, I'm, like, picturing that. I wasn't even there. Like, can you feel the emotions from that that memory?

Was it pretty strong?

Yes, I can.

Drew, as I hear you talking, you seem to have a decent amount of acceptance. I don't hear a lot of shame or defensiveness coming out immediately. So I was just curious, like, what how do you perceive you in relationship to Chelsea? Like, what's the, what do you, how do you see yourself right now?

I see myself as someone who's failing to do the things that I need to do. Not being the man that my wife deserves. And I'm trying to stand in that and to just sit in that seat and really just kind of own it because I don't want to be that person.

What's, what is, how are you failing? Tell me.

By continuing to lie by, not in the moment choosing to, to be honest, even if it's vulnerable, even if it's something that I know is, of consequence, I guess. Just like standing in the moment and saying, I was wrong in this instead of why.

Yeah. I'm gonna pass it to Kaitlyn in a second. Chelsea, I had one question to ask you. As you perceive Drew in the relationship, how do you feel like he's used the word failing as he's showing up? To describe what you're feeling, what words would you use to describe how you feel in this situation?

I definitely feel betrayed just with the, the consistent lying. Ultimately, I think I feel like I'm not enough and I feel unloved because it's hard for me to understand, like Caitlin was saying, especially when there's not even really an issue, but it still becomes a lie. It just makes me, especially with the way I'm hurting and everything we've walked through. Yeah. It makes me feel dismissed and just like I'm unworthy and not, and not good enough for him because otherwise I would not continue to be confronting him about the lies.

Thank you for sharing. I think, so we have Drew, you feel like you're not holding that space, standing in that space. And Chelsea sharing that it feels like she is not enough for you. I think a big perspective shift that would be helpful is healing often feels like not like proving it, but almost like how can I pass the test enough times where we get back to where we were or better? And there's actually not gonna be a moment where you answered the question the right way enough times, or you, your, your search history matched your verbal history enough.

Because what this actually boils down to is not performance. Actions matter. They matter a lot. But at some point, as soon as you do something slightly off, you're gonna tell yourself you failed. Mhmm.

And people that are failures tend to reserve and hold back themselves from the people they love. That what I would offer you is instead of this being about performance, what if it became about access to you? So for example, what Chelsea probably longs to feel is that her desire to be close to you and to know you, that desire for intimacy, that that desire of hers and who she is and who she represents is enough for you to open up and let yourself be accessible and visible and available to her. That I think is, is like a it's almost like a putting the shield down. I think as men, we wanna have like something to fight for and like, tell me tell me the battle I need to win.

And I can tell you probably willing to go fight a battle. Mhmm. And Chelsea's like, would you put your shield down and let me see who you are in your pain? Because if you're willing to share the the small, we'll call, I'll use your word, the small failings or the compulsive, the, the, the remnants of compulsive behavior. If you share that with her, you're letting her see you.

And she's like, that's my hero. That's a brave man. That man that says this way of living this compulsivity, I'm okay parting ways with that and choosing us. So I don't think you have much of a battle to fight. I think you have a shield to set down and say, here I am.

I'm not willing or needing to hide because what we've created in our union is the safety. So I think that that allows you to not feel like you don't have the strength to accomplish something. Instead you drop down into how can I become more accessible emotionally to Chelsea? And true safety is where you you're like, oh, I want to create safety for our our union. I wanna open up so that we're in this place of of synergy, of connection.

Yeah. So that's that's why I'd offer that.

Mhmm. I wanted to ask a couple more questions too about that story. So you said she kinda came in. She was probably in shock, so we're we're not casting any shame on your mother. She's probably in shock, and so she's kind of responding and making you feel, as you said, you felt a lot of guilt in that in that scenario.

Did you get in trouble after that? Do you remember there being any, like, discipline or punishment, like, anything taken from you, anything like that? Or was it just a harsh conversation and then no conversations about it?

I honestly don't recall if there was punishment. It's been so long. Okay. I think there may have been. I think she may have told might have told my father and then it might have, like, got grounded or something like that.

Okay. Okay. So there was an action you took and then it was caught and then you got kind of in trouble verbally and then potentially there were some actions that happened after that. And with this though, did your parents come in with any conversations about kind of their standard or their view for like, know, here's the one stance of, like, slap on the hand. We're not gonna do that.

Did they come in and share, here's how we're gonna view women. Here's how we're gonna view relationship. Here's what, like, wholeness and sexual healing looks like. Was there any of that after this experience with your parents?

No. What I remember the conversations following being about were mostly about guidelines for the computer. I don't really recall any kind of healing conversations where they're like directing me towards a more healthy

mindset. My question was somewhat leading cause I was figuring that that probably wasn't the case. Cause what's happening here is, which I'm going to ask you another question too, is this probably was not this clearly was not the first time you were exposed to something sexual because you were seeking this out at the age of 12 or 13. So then parents are coming in casting a lot of shame and kind of this narrative of you are bad, you've done something wrong. And I don't know how old are you now?

36.

36, so this is what, like twenty something years later? Twenty years. Twenty four years later, you actually still, if you listen to a lot of your languaging, you still carry this same narrative of like, I'm bad I've done something wrong. Right? And so this, I bet that there probably are some memories before '12 or '13 if we really started scrounging.

And this is a very significant prominent memory where they came in and said, you did something wrong, how you perceived it, they probably didn't even tell you you were bad, of course. How that felt in your body though was, I'm bad, I've done something wrong. And then there was no healing, growth, maturation, no conversations that we're having right now of, okay, here's what sexual wholeness looks like, right? So then you're a teenager with an underdeveloped brain trying to figure out your entire life, and what just got programmed into you, which I know it sounds like you've done a lot of reflecting on this. What got programmed into you is, oh, when I do something wrong, I'm bad and I need to make sure that nobody finds out about it.

Right? And so then I'm gonna shove it under the rug and gonna probably feel like I'm in a perpetual state of I'm doing something wrong, I'm not bad. Maybe even later in life, there's kind of this like, I'm working against my sin nature. I heard you bringing that up. Another question I think that would be great to hear, understand, reflect on for yourself, which you probably have is, do you remember when you first were exposed to something sexual?

This could be, for a lot of people, this is either an actual sexual experience or a sexual experience through like a screen, an image, something like that. So it could be, it could be that you were touched or you touched someone or it could be like you found pornography, someone showed you pornography, something like that. Do you remember at what age and what that experience was?

Yeah. I was in the second grade and a friend of mine had brought like a picture to school and it showed me at recess. That was the first exposure I had to any kind of pornographic image.

And then from that point on, have you tracked through your sexual history from this moment on till the day to today? Have you already done kind of this process? Okay. So then from that moment on, when do you remember feeling like you were, maybe you might use in your own words, addicted to pornography? Like when did you start choosing to seek it out yourself?

So you were exposed in second grade. That's like what? Eight or nine? So you're exposed at like age eight or nine. And then when did you kinda choose?

Was it right when you got home or was it do you remember what time frame you chose to go seek it out yourself?

A couple years later, when I was like 10 or 11, a friend of mine got a computer down the street that all kind of snowballed from there.

Okay. So a friend got a computer and then you guys would go over there together and that's kind of when you're experienced with porn. So then you were addicted to porn from about 10 to 30, is that right? Am I right on my math?

33, if he's 30. Yep. Early thirties.

So about 10 to 33, so you have a couple decades of, you know, that sort of addiction, and then you guys, how many years into marriage has your addiction been present? Because I forgot how many years you guys have been married.

We got married in 2019, and I confessed to Chelsea in 2022, so about three years.

Okay. And then at your confession, is that when the addiction was no longer present in the form of pornography?

In the form of pornography, yes.

Okay. Yeah. And then you see your addiction playing out though in other sexual seeking out other sexual content and then through the lying. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Yeah. I think that that is all it sounds like you've done a lot of work to play play through. A lot of times what we like to remind people is that in those stories, you find a lot of the answers to the we ask ourselves a lot, why do I do this? Right? Why do I lie?

And if you're still asking yourself that, I would say keep going backwards to the stories. Why do I lie? Oh, I lie because I felt a lot of shame in that moment and I still feel all that shame and guilt right now. So if you still feel all of that, you can't break free from that pattern. Does that make sense?

You're gonna keep spinning the same pattern. So you have to be able to look at, okay, this is where it started, and this is where it's still continuing. Here's how it looks the same, sounds the same, and it sometimes it's literally as simple as the awareness of, that's where it started. Oh, that's why I do that. And one thing I wanna bring bring awareness to is that there there was an actual pornography addiction, which everyone's terms of pornography are so different in what pornography is.

So there is an actual pornography addiction, and then it sounds like to present, there is still a and maybe a compulsive behavior to seeking out sexual content. Right? And then that is then leading to lies and then there's this story of maybe a couple days ago where there's kind of like some we'll call them like silly lies. Right? It's kinda like, why are we lying about this is it doesn't involve anything sexual.

And until you feel within yourself a resolve to actually get out everything, which I'm kind of looping back to where I started, because I think this is the answer to your guys' healing, is if this is a current day present, like, level of brokenness in the relationship is that there's still a compulsive, I'll call it instead of addiction, I'll call it like a compulsive tendency to seek out something sexual online or maybe even objectifying somebody in person, you know, magazines at a store, whatever. We can go through all the scenarios, things we watch on movies, TV. If there's still that programming in, which if you guys, all of you have been following along enough to know that we do not believe that that's biological, we've already heard it in your story, like, we were all exposed at some point, and then that attraction became became wired in. And so what we wire in, we can wire out. So if you find that that's still a present day issue, I would say that the answers to a lot of your your issues that are coming up right now is in you having this resolve of like, I'm gonna be 100% honest about the areas of my sexuality I haven't brought to the light yet.

You maybe haven't chosen, they're all there for you to see. You can reframe them and make them whatever story you want. And at the same time, it sounds like you're ready to actually be free from this. Right? So you're telling yourself, this is it's just like this is which you can go into embodiment in a minute because I think this is gonna be crucial.

This is the process of coming back home to your body of you feel this this tension. Some people might call this sin nature, and at the same time, that almost makes it feel like it's something outside of yourself you can never control. And you can fully control this. You're fully powerful enough to be like, oh, there's this part of me that has this secret, this hiddenness, this compulsive behavior, and I could call it something else. I could call it, it's my wife's fault because she's controlling.

I could call it, it's the culture's issue because it's overly sexual. I could give it whatever name, or I could be honest with myself and I could say, no, this is something I wired in because I was exposed and because I chose to expose myself and because I chose to live a life of addiction. I've wired this in. I'm gonna bring this to my wife. I'm gonna go through the process of clearing this all out through the four r's, rewiring my brain, replacing my thoughts, I'm gonna be a fully honest and transparent man, guess what?

When those silly lies come up, they don't really have a hold anymore. When I see silly lies coming up, I go ding ding ding ding ding. Red flag, red flag, red flag. There's a bigger there's a bigger which I don't like labeling everything. There's a different secret or lie going on underneath, which I don't like pointing any fingers.

You might have told yourself there isn't because you've lived a life from 12 years old till, you know, into your thirties of this programming of I do something bad and so I lie, so I don't get in trouble, so I don't feel more bad. Right? So when you have that programming for so many decades, you have to remind yourself, I am safe to be honest. I am safe to be seen. And so when there's the silly lies, there's there's something else underneath that needs a minute to be seen.

So there's something here within your sexuality still that wants a moment to be seen and that's pairing that with which I think this this pairs with the the narrative you believe about yourself, which will tie to embodiment, you which can touch on. There's this narrative you believe about yourself that I'm bad, that I'm doing something bad, there's a guilt and the shame, paired with then this sexual narrative of these these compulsive patterns and behaviors. The colliding of those two is keeping you what you would consider stuck. So as you take a look at your sexual history and your story with complete honesty together between the two of you, you get in your body to rewire the narratives of how you see yourself, letting go of the patterns of what you received from your parents, maybe friends, maybe teachers, whatever it was that made you feel bad and wrong, letting go of those. Coming together, that's where you head down the track of actually starting to see progress and healing and freedom.

So the, the incident just a couple of days ago that I know we've been kind of like honing in on, but practical to explore. What websites did you go to on? You can take a second. But like, what were you exploring that you ended up deleting from the history?

I'm honestly having a hard time remembering. I think it was, I'm out of work right now. So I think it was like me looking for a job or like checking up on job job applications or do you know what it was? I know

you've Yeah. Got So he has had a pain in his backside. I don't know what you call it. It like flares up every once in a while. And he was trying to look up different remedies for it.

And then also we've kind of set a vision for our family that we want to take a more holistic approach to things. And so he was also looking up like if ibuprofen is bad for you and, and just things like that in relation to his hurt that he was having.

Okay. And then the, the like social media, I guess I call it social media porn just for simplicity, but the social media porn or that type of content that you'd viewed, how recent was that?

Not since 2024. Right. No.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's been a year.

Okay. I want to not rely on Chelsea because you've, you've had like a lot of clarity for most of what we're talking about. And I noticed like with these areas that are more, not shame, but like somewhat shameful, you're having to rely on Chelsea's memory. And it's not like asking somebody to talk about something traumatic. It's sometimes difficult to see.

I more just want you to know, there's compassion to slow down for you to actually look at you. I think that's something I really wanted you to like lean into is your story doesn't need rushed over when you sit. Cause if you have to look at Chelsea and this is not, I'm not like nitpicking. It's more because I've done the same things. When I had to look at Caitlin, what was our boundary?

What was our agreement? What did I committed to? It meant I was mostly doing it to pass the test.

To be good.

To be good. It's almost and it almost puts it in this place of like, how long ago mommy was it since I was bit since I was did something bad. And so I think I, you know, being out of work, I've also had a I have, I don't know, I have this tailbone thing happen at the beginning of our marriage. So I've had it's like, I think there's some more like significance to that too. I I don't know exact exactly what you're working through, whether it's hemorrhoids, whatever it is.

It probably links. Normally the body, the pain that's showing up is linking to the emotional pain in your relationship.

Or even like for us, we were we traveled a lot via car when we were first married, and we had a lot of difficult conversations while driving. And I I was the way my hips were positioning, caused like a severe tailbone issue. All that to say, if you're out of work, you're in pain, you're wrestling, you're, you're, you're in this in between space. You're actually, I want, I want you to look at it this way. I know you guys shared, I think before we clicked record, you're, you're gonna be having a baby soon, baby number two.

You might feel like you're in this place where you're like a failure. It's like, wow, I brought my wife to this point. We're about to have two kids. I'm out of work. My butt hurts.

I was a porn addict. It's winter. Like, what am I what am I doing with myself? Do you do you have any of those types of feelings or thoughts?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's kind of a tough time. Okay.

I think like, this is where, like, it's almost like to be validating and express empathy to Chelsea. Not that you don't need to look at your story with the magnitude of how big and we'll call it big and bad. It was the healing. Like you basically here's the, here's how, here's your process through you guys are both on two healing, healing journeys. And this is, it's not like simple, but it, we can simplify it where you just let go of a man that wasn't the real you, a man that isolates some porn that's wallowing in his shame, that that doesn't know how to access his own pleasure within his marriage and be satisfied there.

Like, you are you just said, you know what? That's not gonna be me. Now so that's your healing journey. Like, you just literally shook all that off and say, I'm gonna be a provider. I'm going to be a leader.

I'm going to be this. I'm going be all these amazing. I'm going be an amazing father, amazing husband. You're going to step into that. Great decision.

Chelsea's left at the aftermath of why wasn't I enough for the first three years? Why did this all happen? Do you still think about those things? And now she's hurting. All the shame, the residual shame you can actually let go of, because I I like to paint it like this.

If when you picture like a dog that got into something and then it tucks its tail between its leg and knows it did bad, nobody's like, oh, that dog's taking responsibility for the for the food it just ate off the table. And I feel like you're tapping into this, but when you look at your story and you say, yeah, I wounded my wife. I'm the, I'm the one that wounded. I'm, I'm the wounder of my wife and I'm the healer for my wife. Because no pastor, counselor, no friend of Chelsea's is actually going to be the healing agent that you are.

And so to actually move into radical honesty, further exploring your story together, you have to look yourself in the mirror and be like, I'm the man of the it's I'm the man of the hour. This I'm lights on me. Like, it's the spotlight's on me. Like, this is my time to shine. I'm going to look at my story.

I'm gonna look at my hurt wife, and I'm gonna be I'm take radical ownership seeing, like, I got off the train I was on. It wasn't I didn't like it. You did both didn't like it. And now you're you're sitting with Chelsea. You're with her in the pain.

It's and every time she's hurting, isn't mean you're a failure. It means she's hurting from something you did. And now you get to look at it and say, let's cry together. Let me hold you. Share with me.

Because you're not you're not attached to the things you did, but you're attached to the responsibility of the position you're in now. So you are not those things, but you are responsible for those things and how they impacted you, your nervous system and your wife. And so I think that's the, that's the, the approach I would take is like seeing yourself as less than, or not as valuable is not going to empower you to take ownership. So like the best jobs, the best business ideas that all can fall into your lap right now as you're rebuilding your marriage, because the man that takes ownership for his position validates a hurting wife. But when you see yourself as kinda like, yeah, man, this sucks.

Like, I'm not we're living with family. Like, I can't even pay the bills. Screw it. I'm just gonna look up. My my ass hurts.

I'm just gonna look up what to do. Crap. I didn't I didn't tech I didn't check-in. I'll just delete this. It wasn't a big deal.

And then Chelsea's like, Hey, I know. And she's like wanting to snuggle and talk with you. And you're like, wait, my safari is different. Like, what happened? You're like, nothing.

Cause I'm, cause what, what you're really saying is I'm just a loser. Don't want to look at it. I'm a loser. I don't want to look at it instead. You say, you know what?

You, everything slows down. And I think that's, that's where the, what Caitlin said, talk about touch on embodiment. Have you tried to doing any of those embodiment exercises inside of the app? I know we just re released quite a bit of new stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I've doing

it for us today. Awesome. The nervous system. I want you to pay attention to these three areas. For those of you listening, you can also track this is finding out when you're in the, the grounded zone.

So we'll, we'll take it on a scale of one to 10. The grounded zone would be like a five, six, where you're you're in like this happy medium place. You might be in there right now. You you seem like you're pretty in a regulated state. I can't I'm not in your body, but it's kind of a state of active calm where you feel comfortable in the environment you're in.

You might be talking to somebody you enjoy talking to, and you feel at peace in your body. You can think clearly you can make decisions. You can recall information. The grounded zone is, is an ideal place to, to live in. Some people might call that being regulated.

Then there's like this fire zone. So we'll call this like seven, eight, nine, ten. That's like, you turned around and you see that there's a grease fire happening in your kitchen, or there's a tiger chasing you, or there's something crazy happening, or you, you, somebody just cut you off in traffic and now they're chasing you, or you're chasing them. That type of feeling where you're, there's so much energy, anxiety, angst flowing through your system that you don't know what to do with it. It's having too much energy.

So in micro moments throughout the day, we can feel that. It's like Chelsea might say, Hey, what'd you do today while I was getting groceries? You might go like, Oh, she's trying to catch me. And you might jump up into this fire zone or your in laws might say something to you that really pisses you off. Like, you could just might go up there.

And then there's the ice zone. So we've got fire grounded ice, which is kinda like that four and below where you feel apathetic. You feel depressed. You don't have enough energy to, like if if fires, there's too much energy in the tank, The ice zone is kind like, I can't even get the engine to turn over. I just want you to begin paying attention to when you feel yourself dropping into the ice zone or going up into the fire zone.

Because again, it's not good or bad, But when we ignore that we're living life, like say you've been at a two all day, you've left your body and you're like, well, I, my life sucks. I don't care about who I, I I'm just worthless. You don't think clearly to act clearly. And so the practice, the embodiment practice is there to help you set that baseline to get into your body and then have this true north, this, this, place to return home to every time you're like, man, finding a job is difficult where we're living right now. Right.

I'm, I'm, I'm a little clue. I'm not sure where to turn next. I'm going go breathe for two minutes and get back into my body and do some box breathing. So that's what I would offer you in regards to like maintaining a healthy inner state so that you don't step into compulsive. With that as Caitlin explored, I think I was curious how in-depth have you two talked about your sexual history together?

What type of conversations have you had about, like, the porn you watched, the frequency? Like, what what what's what's that conversation look like together?

From eight to 33, how much of your life does she know?

We sat down together and we each did full disclosures on our sexual history where, I walked Chelsea through my entire sexual history from that moment where I saw a picture in second grade until we met and until, like, what happened afterwards. And she did the same for me.

Is there anything that you can recall right now that you haven't told her about? Even something that feels rather insignificant or small?

No. I I I'm I'm fairly confident that I I hit everything with her.

And Chelsea, do you feel that reflected through his energy and actions? Do you feel like everything's transparent and coming out and it's just the the residual lying? Or how does that feel for you when you hear that?

It's really hard for me to agree with what he's saying because of honestly what you touched on earlier with the silly lies. It just feels like there has to be more there. And even all the times I've caught him lying, it's just been this deep rooted feeling I've had of something is off here. And then, you know, by the grace of God, really, I've been able to figure out what that is. And that's always how I've kind of unfortunately caught him in the lies because the only confession I've ever received from him was the initial

porn confession.

And so I just feel like, again, I'm not him and obviously trust is broken. So I, I hate to say it, but I just feel like there has to be something I don't know.

One of the things I think that, which I have a lot of respect for the modern counseling world, and there's probably counselors listening to this, you've probably been to counselors that have been supportive on your journey. One of the things that I find it's really difficult about the modern approach, which you guys, sounds like you did a full therapeutic disclosure. Did you do a, did you do a polygraph or anything like that? No. No.

I never went through a polygraph just because I was going to fail it and Caitlin read my notes ahead of time. She's like, you're already.

It's a lot

of work. So, what typically happens for those of you that haven't been through one or maybe couples that have is, you know, you go, you write out your full sexual history. It can be augmented by a polygraph to see if it's, if there's any large things that were left out. And then you share this with your partner. So you guys have like the starting point.

I think what's really difficult about that is when you decided that you were going to tell Chelsea, and then maybe you started working with a counselor and you guys sat down and did your, your history. Is there so much you actually can't see? Because if you spent decades hiding it from yourself, you might remember some of the biggest things, a lot of little things are still tucked away in your subconscious. And I think what's hard is having this expectation that we opened up Pandora's box for two hours together in a difficult counseling session. And then we close it, assuming we got all of it.

Have you guys had a second to to peek around the grounded intimacy course inside of the app yet?

I don't think

so. Okay.

So then, what you're saying is you've done you did a one time disclosure, both of you, of your sexual history. You've not had any long, ongoing conversations other than that one. Is that accurate?

There's been a lot of questions on my end that I've brought to Of course. Like each night when we do the dailies or like prior, like before we do the dailies, we usually just do like a rundown of the day. And so I've, I've had a lot of questions about things that have been disclosed. Yeah. But otherwise that that's all we've done.

What we ended up doing kind of accidentally, just cause I wasn't going to get free otherwise was exploring. We'll recommend going through the grounded intimacy program. And, for anybody listening, that's a that's one of our programs walking through addiction and rewiring the brain, inside of our grounded union app. What happened for me was when Caitlin caught me lying, I only knew, like, two or three pieces of It's like, yeah, I went to this profile and this profile. Everything else was literally, like, I'm, like, sitting there watching her weep.

I'm, like, not even wanting to I wasn't even wanting to lie anymore. I'm like, no. This is bad. Like, I got caught. I need to get this out.

Blank. Blank. I couldn't get, I couldn't even feel anything. So the expectation that you kind of open it up and then close it, it doesn't set you up for long term success because what could happen is Drew maybe hasn't had the experience of exploring like, man, you know, in my late twenties, I looked at this type of porn a lot because of this insecurity. I used to watch porn that was more like edgy in this way because I had this experience with this girl and it was really traumatic and I had this scare and I watched five years of this porn.

Like you don't really uncover like the trauma or the healing needed for your soul. If that was just kinda like, yeah, I looked at porn all throughout before we got married. And then I started watching this porn here and because there's a storyline behind the porn and behind everything else that actually looks you like, oh, oh, this all makes sense. And it's real, it's uncomfortable to look at, but it also rips the shame right off of it. And so what I wanted to to encourage you guys is opening up the sexual history again, not necessarily like, cause Chelsea and Drew, there'll be things you find out that will be ideally you don't find out that Drew's had an affair.

We don't, that's not what we want to have happened through this process. Ideally, you're finding out like, oh, I didn't realize that you were abused as a child. How did you keep that from me? Like, how, like, as you explore your history, your mind begins to lift the layers and you're like, oh, I I didn't realize I did this thing or I had this way, like this phrase in my mind, every time I saw a woman dress a certain way, I thought I had this kind of demeaning phrase that went through my mind because that's what this one kid in in high school always called women, and that's just how I've that's what's got what got plugged in. So I think that also allows for a lot of questions to get answered.

And so the systematic process that we have inside of the the grounded intimacy program we've shared on the podcast a little bit is inviting your subconscious to actually show you the memories, the fantasies, the current way they impact you today, and taking each memory, each thought and writing it down, and then doing the four R's, which is inside of the app, which is basically to recognize that the thought exists, to receive peace in your body, to release that thought, and then to replace it with a new pattern. And so it can it it's it's taking this might take thirty, sixty, ninety days where your daily check-in and conversation with with Chelsea is, hey. I ripped open my subconscious so that I could see the types of porn I watched. The ways the the flirtatious, conversations I had or the the the fantasy I had about this friend of ours. It feels really uncomfortable, but what happens is as you begin to rip rip it open and rewire all of it, every ounce of power of compulsion, it just begins to fall off.

And in these conversations, Chelsea might cry. She might feel a sense of betrayal, but what's actually happening is you're to see yourself. She's not having to pry you open. She's saying, wow. He's shocked by his own story as I already have been, but now he's doing it so that he can see clearly.

And again, it's that piece of access. So then what you guys do together is, the program will walk you through it, but you look at it, you talk through it together and you rewire and you replace everything that those memories represented, everything that they were with the new thing. So what happens is you see the patterns. You begin to see what overtook you, what, I mean, you're like, woah, this has no power over me anymore. And it has no power over us.

And Chelsea's questions become clear. If you can ask questions and you're, you're curious to answer them like, I actually want to know the answer to that question too. Let me sit with it. So that's, that's my thoughts on that.

Yeah. To put it plainly, there's no way that in one conversation, the disclosure conversation, that you were able to convey from eight to thirty three, or I'm just calling it 33 because that's what you're saying. Let's just say eight to current day, that you were able to convey your sexual history. There's just absolutely no way. I've never heard of that.

And actually, from those that I hear that from, that say there was a one time conversation, those are the exact people that are still cycling through their

It's not a bad thing. What That's a That's bad thing.

That's starting point. And that's normally where the church and where counselors and where everyone leaves you at. It's like, just try to get as much of the big I I like to call it, it's like, let's just throw the blanket out there. It's like, I looked at porn for thirty years and I objectified women online and it's like, we tried that game too for five years. I call it a game because it doesn't work.

It's just a roller coaster that Chelsea's ready to get off of. She's like, I am sick. I'm done, I'm done on this roller coaster. What we found, the unconventional path that actually leads to true intimacy into me, because intimacy to me is not sex, it's into me you see, it's actually knowing and seeing each other. The the true path to that is not a one time conversation.

It's a daily conversation because even as I'm talking right now, and even as we've pulled open some of those memories, you probably have other things flashing in your brain right now. Other images, pictures, other scenes, other words, things come in. Those are the things that come out when you guys have that nightly time together. And it's not Chelsea saying, tell me what you did, tell me what you remembered. It's like, here's what I remember of my of my entire, you know, sexual history and it's at first, it's like, oh gosh, Caitlin and Brandon.

Why do you want us to go through this? And it's like, I want you to go through this because there's a day, this part always makes me cry, that you won't have to go through it again. Trying to keep some of it at bay is keeping you at where you are right now, where you're still lying about silly things. And I'm gonna say it plainly because somebody has to. You don't lie about silly things if all truth has been seen.

It's just not how it goes because as soon as the full truth is out, all all power to that source that makes you feel like you're gonna lie compulsively dies off right then and there. So it might sound extreme, everyone's like, oh, you guys are so extreme. We're supposed to share everything with each other. It's like, I live in a marriage that doesn't feel extreme anymore. It feels extreme to feel like you're lying and you don't want to, right?

And it feels extreme to wake up every day not knowing if your spouse is telling you the truth. And to get to that point where you don't feel like you have to lie anymore, where you don't feel like you have missed broken trust, you just it's as simple and yet difficult as saying every day, I'm gonna choose to be seen and known. Because these memories live inside of you and they wanna come out and be seen, not in a one time conversation. When you get them out, you will clear them out. This isn't for the rest of your life.

We don't sit down every night and go, okay, let's go through our sexual history. No. We're years into an existence where there's nothing I don't know about Brandon, and there's nothing he doesn't know about me, and we can see into each other's eyes, and our hearts and our souls are so connected. That's intimacy. There's nothing we haven't owned a TV in ten years, and we're never uncomfortable sitting with each other because there's nothing we're trying to keep from each other anymore.

There's a day where you're not running from yourself, from your past, from your lives, from the closet of everything that you're trying to hide, and it comes through the day to day commitment of I'm gonna be seen and known. When I have a flashback and a memory, I'm gonna bring that up. I'm gonna go through the four r's and then I'm gonna find my wife tonight after the kids are asleep and we're gonna go through this together. We're gonna rewire what I wired in. We're gonna replace this and we're gonna create a whole new existence together.

That's when the lies lose all their power. You're not gonna have to try to pray harder, read your bible more, fast harder, go to more men's groups, try more tactics. It's just as soon as you wanna live a life just with your wife. This isn't a Facebook post. I always like to say this.

This isn't like, I don't even actually recommend going to your men's group and just airing out all your dirty laundry to a bunch of other men. I actually don't recommend that. I recommend that you sit down with your wife, the one that you've chosen to intertwine your soul to. You became one when you got married. So of course, it's a 100% makes sense that you two would know each everything about each other, and that stays safe in your relationship.

So this is a a posture of I'm gonna let everything be seen and be known, and why we always it always inner it always comes back to sexuality because that's where most of us hold a lot of shame. That's where most of us got in trouble. That's when you remember getting in trouble, there was the story of shame, you did something wrong, and now I lie and hide. And so now you're still playing out the same pattern. Those are the things that we've tried to sweep under the rug, shove behind the closet doors.

Those are the things that wanna come out. So I'm not pointing at you saying you're a liar. I actually know why there's certain things you haven't shared. It's not because I actually think you're a liar. It's because you had a program in, you tucked everything behind the door, and now all you have to do is say, I'm safe to let all of that come out, to share all of that with Chelsea, and I believe that you no longer a liar anymore, you no longer have that power that feels like a darkness orbiting around you, it's gone.

It's gone the minute you change your posture to, I'm gonna get everything out. Not in a one time conversation, but in a daily posture of, I'm gonna be radically honest, and radically transparent, and radically vulnerable, and that's just the man that I'm gonna become.

That's so good. We're kind of right up on on time here. I wanted to leave this space, Chelsea or Drew, if you had anything you wanted to ask before we close out.

Caitlin, I just had one question for you, and I think we've touched on it a little bit, but I sorry, missed our crying. But I just, of course I'm very pregnant. So hormones are a thing, but I just, I don't know how to continue. Like I want healing in our marriage. So I know that I have to hear all of these things and continue to go through this process, but I just feel like I'm so broken.

And it's because of like the fact that we've been in this process, but I'm still getting lied to. And it feels like every time I get lied to, it's like we start from square one again. And I just don't know if you have any like practical things or advice for me as far as like, I can do this because I feel like I can't do it anymore. A lot

of this lives inside the app. There's a couple of new courses on betrayal trust, and that are just me. And I actually read a couple of journal entries. I read them at our Lumeria Maui intensive. I'm not gonna read them here.

To summarize though, it actually I didn't do this on purpose, but you can see through my journal entries, the very beginning where I'm pretty much asking verbatim word for word the same questions to myself of like, I don't know if I can do this anymore. Waking up, we had two kids at the time that we were going through this as well. Waking up every single day having no idea if you're lying. I was told Brandon was a pathological liar. Moving into like, okay, I'm starting to see another man.

And then the journal entry, which was at the month mark when everything changed for us, is literally, it makes me weep every time I read it. It's like, oh my gosh, this worked. And I don't say this to everyone, and I can sense energy even through a screen, and I feel like your husband, Drew, I feel like you have an energy that's like, I'm gonna do this. You just need the key to unlock, and the key I'm telling you is that there's way more for you to explore and come clean about. And it's not because you're a liar, it's because you first lied to yourself decades ago, and I need you to be able to tell yourself I'm safe to get that out.

If he commits to that, your marriage, I guarantee, looks completely different one year from now. I guarantee you'll email me one year from now. If he says, I'm ready to actually, essentially remove the veil, see clearly, there is freedom and hope on the other side for you and for your marriage. As far as how to commit the day to day of the pain of that, there's practical. Practical is you're gonna take care of yourself.

How I took care of myself is, it sounds like you guys are actually already exploring it, which is sunshine, movement, getting outside, even if it's snowy, put some warm boots on and a jacket, going for walks every single day, sunrise, sunset, nourishing meals for your body, plenty of sleep. The basic foundational elements of life, getting into your body through movement, journaling, I have 400 journal entries from that season of my life because it's literally like it's literally like the Psalms, like I'm just poor. Some of them I will never read because they are so dark because that season of my life was so intense. Yeah. That is where I put all of my heart and my pain onto paper and wrote it all out.

I went for a walk, I went for a run, I laid out on a blanket and cried and cried and cried, And I actually had no one to look at me and tell me it was gonna actually end in anything good on the other side. And why we do this podcast, why we do anything that we do is because we wanna communicate that if you remove the veil to see clearly, there is so much beauty on the other side. And so in a way I'm saying, if he shows up, buckle up because it's painful, but it's good. And I say this in the in the app is right now you're already in pain. So there's two paths of pain.

You're in pain right now. You can go down the path of pain where you try to pretend like there's no veil to remove. Just try to pretend like we just can keep going on that status quo. I don't want to hear anything. I don't want to share anything.

Whatever the tension is, you can keep going and you'll always be in pain, right? That path leads to only pain. You're in pain right now, the path of you, you as the wife, hearing things that may be new and may be shocking, may release a new sense of betrayal, and you as the husband sharing things that are gonna be like, okay, woah, I didn't realize that I needed to share this out loud. That's pain that lasts for a moment. Maybe the moment might be a couple months, that leads to freedom and beauty.

So this path of pain takes you to a place where you're in connection and intimacy and your union. Does that make sense? You're already in pain. There's not there there's one way out of pain that actually leads to wholeness and connection in the marriage that you're in, and that's through through embracing what you're experiencing, getting the truth and the honesty out, and working through that together. If you see him showing up every day doing his embodiment, if you see him coming after your kids are put to bed, this is what I tell everybody at their events, Caitlin, how do I know how do I know if I can trust him?

If Drew wakes up every morning and gets in his body, and he comes and you've got your son put to bed, and he says, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna go through the memories that have come up. We're gonna go through the things I just remembered that I haven't ever told you before. We're gonna go through these things. We're gonna do the four r's. We're gonna explore my entire childhood and my my sexual history all over again.

You see that from him? That's a man that you can trust. You don't have to offer your trust right away. That's a man that you can believe cares just as much as you about getting to the other side, and I believe that Drew's the man that wants to do that. He just has needed the right tools and keys to unlock how to get to that other side.

So if you see that every day, some people come to our events and the husband's like, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And the email thirty days later, it's like life's like, he doesn't do his embodiment. He doesn't show up for any conversations. He doesn't wanna talk through any of that. That's not a man I would trust.

I wouldn't trust Brandon if that's how he showed up. I trusted Brandon, which you can see reflected in my journal entries, when he woke up and got into his body. When we were in when we were in a conversation that was feeling like there's a lot of tension, he said, I'm gonna take five minutes and go get a cold shower, and I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna show up differently for this conversation. That's a man I begin to trust. When he started telling me things, it's like, oh, you wouldn't be telling me this if you had a bunch of things you were hiding.

You wouldn't be trying to show up to every conversation bringing truth and bringing honesty if you had a whole closet you were still hiding. Right? You see the difference there? It's not through words, it's through actions, it's through the daily showing up of I'm ready to commit and to do what it takes to change and radically transform our relationship.

That's so good. Drew and Chelsea, I just wanna thank you guys for sharing your story with us. We will send you a follow-up email with some of the links to the things we referenced just so you have that and kind of a game plan from us. I wanna thank those of you that joined us to listen. Give Drew and Chelsea some love in the comments if you're on a platform listening that allows you to do that, and, we'll see you guys on the next week of the Grounded Union podcast.