Josh: Open ai just finished their dev day live from
Josh: san francisco where they announced a bunch of cool new developer tools that
Josh: will be accessible to everybody today but also for
Josh: people like us who are users of them very very soon so there was a series of
Josh: announcements we're going to get right into it we're going to try to cover everything
Josh: in 20 minutes so if you stick with us you'll know everything about everything
Josh: that open ai just announced today starting with their agent sdk right you just
Josh: can you walk us through what i guess your first reactions may be to what you
Josh: just saw before we even get into everything?
Ejaaz: Well, my first reaction is probably your reaction to seeing this image right here, Josh.
Ejaaz: Now, there are a lot of big numbers on this, but I think the thing that kind
Ejaaz: of stood out to both of us actually, we were discussing it before we started
Ejaaz: recording this, was 800 million weekly ChatGPT users.
Ejaaz: Do you remember when this was 500 million quoted like three months ago?
Josh: They were the fastest to get to 1 million users, and we thought that was incredible.
Josh: They did it in like five days.
Josh: They're getting close to a billion. It's remarkable the progress that they're
Josh: making and how fast and how big they're getting.
Ejaaz: So you You mentioned something, well, you basically said apps inside ChatGPT,
Ejaaz: and I think you were referring to one of three major announcements that they
Ejaaz: made on this live stream, which was the Apps SDK,
Ejaaz: which basically allows you to connect your app through ChatGPT such that any
Ejaaz: one of their 800 million weekly active users can get access to your app.
Ejaaz: Congratulations. OpenAI has officially become the welcome mat to the internet.
Ejaaz: Formerly, it was Google.
Ejaaz: And now if you want your app to have access to the hundreds of millions and
Ejaaz: billions of users on the internet, you probably kind of want to go through OpenAI.
Ejaaz: What's cool about this new update, Josh, is...
Ejaaz: It has full access to MCP, which is an open protocol. And you and I have gone
Ejaaz: back and forth about like closed versus open.
Ejaaz: MCP basically allows any app to connect to OpenAI or to any AI model.
Ejaaz: And also importantly, allows you to connect any of your data to it as well.
Ejaaz: And the reason why this is important is it's one thing allowing ChatGPT access
Ejaaz: to a tool, which is what we've seen OpenAI enable about seven months ago, right?
Ejaaz: And it didn't really get anywhere. now if
Ejaaz: you have access to mcp and a direct line to
Ejaaz: the chat gpt store you can start to
Ejaaz: see this as a bit of an evolution so they
Ejaaz: had an example uh here josh where you know
Ejaaz: you could be talking to chat gpt and say you want to book hotels and
Ejaaz: it selects xpedia or booking.com or
Ejaaz: something like that they have something where you can access canva to create
Ejaaz: like your own poster and the major step that they've had from enabling GPT plugins
Ejaaz: to what they have today is ChatGPT kind of decides what app it needs to pick
Ejaaz: for you instead of you picking it for it, right?
Ejaaz: And it kind of has the context throughout the conversation without needing to
Ejaaz: remind it like, hey, you need to use this information to do A, B, and C.
Josh: So for the people who are listening to this that are not developers like myself,
Josh: This might not seem super interesting.
Josh: And I want to kind of frame this in a way that is interesting because us
Josh: as users are going to see a lot of these interesting downstream effects kind of
Josh: as they go this is the early seeding of it that's kind
Josh: of what this event is today it's for developers by
Josh: developers and there's just a lot of these complicated terms like an
Josh: sdk and an api but the reality of what they're doing
Josh: now and the reality of this first batch of news that we're talking about
Josh: is chat gpt is creating an app store for the
Josh: chat gpt application is an easy way of framing this and
Josh: basically what's happening is normally in order to use like we're
Josh: seeing on screen an app like xpedia you go to xpedia.com you
Josh: open up your mobile app on your phone you go on the
Josh: desktop app on your your computer but it's not
Josh: natively integrated into the chat gpt experience so a
Josh: few of the things that they showed the few examples like we're seeing right
Josh: here is now when you want to book a flight through xpedia you
Josh: don't actually have to leave the open ai chat
Josh: gpt application you can do it directly from within the
Josh: application and that's kind of the novel breakthrough with this sdk that
Josh: they're releasing to everybody is now you can engage with
Josh: applications that you use on a daily basis but they're kind
Josh: of enhanced and augmented by inline ai
Josh: so if you want to book your flight now chat gpt
Josh: has the context of your calendar it has the context of your emails
Josh: It has the context of all the the chatting that you've been doing with it it
Josh: can go and it can seek out those flights for example and suggest which ones
Josh: to book and they're doing that with a whole bunch of different examples they
Josh: had one with zillow where you can actually browse homes and then for example
Josh: if you find a home in a relevant area you could ask well how is the school system
Josh: there and how close is as a senior grocery store.
Josh: And you could get additional context that you never really could prior to this integration.
Josh: So Ejaz, for me, one of the more interesting parts of this entire presentation
Josh: that they did was just how
Josh: They were trying to approach the problem of solving it directly within their
Josh: app instead of going to the browser. I think with perplexity,
Josh: they created their own browser.
Josh: With Anthropic, they created a browser extension where it kind of embeds itself
Josh: into the browser. ChatGPT is saying, no, no, no, no, no.
Josh: We have 800 million weekly active users. You're coming to us and you're going
Josh: to give us your tools and we're going to augment the experience for our users.
Josh: But please come to us and we're going to make that experience great.
Ejaaz: I don't think that this is a
Ejaaz: surprise josh because i don't know
Ejaaz: if this is a hot take at all but i don't know if
Ejaaz: it matters if it's a browser or directly in
Ejaaz: a chat interface like chat gpt here i think it's become a business development
Ejaaz: game a partnership strategy game aka if open ai can partner with all the biggest
Ejaaz: companies and shops in the world e-commerce sites in the world then And they
Ejaaz: will probably likely provide the best shopping experience,
Ejaaz: the best agent experience, the best app experience.
Ejaaz: And I think there's good reason for them to pursue something like this, right?
Ejaaz: I actually mentioned on the episode
Ejaaz: that went out today on OpenAI's personalization and memory features.
Ejaaz: You guys should check out that episode if you haven't seen it already.
Ejaaz: That personalization and memory are OpenAI's biggest modes.
Ejaaz: It makes the product incredibly sticky because ChatGPT suddenly knows everything
Ejaaz: about you. It goes from feeling like a tool to feeling like a friend.
Ejaaz: And this is kind of the similar jump that they've made with apps.
Ejaaz: If I am using ChatGPT and it has all the context on me and it understands the
Ejaaz: conversation I've just had about it.
Ejaaz: For example, I don't know what fridge I want to buy for my new house.
Ejaaz: So I'm obviously going to ChatGPT.
Ejaaz: I'm checking out what the latest brands are, what the better price points are
Ejaaz: within my budget. And then I find an answer, right?
Ejaaz: But if ChatGPT can then go out and buy that for me, I don't want to leave the site.
Ejaaz: Like, why would I want to go to that? Why do I want to scroll and click open
Ejaaz: another tab, sign in via Gmail or whatever that might be?
Ejaaz: There's so many reasons which I will be lazy for it. And this makes ChatGPT
Ejaaz: incredibly attractive.
Josh: Yeah, I think it's a big breakthrough for why people are going to be excited to use ChatGPT.
Josh: I'm personally excited to try
Josh: these features in line because it kind of augments the whole experience.
Josh: Like every time you use the internet, it's now enhanced by all of the context that you've given it.
Josh: So we frequently ask, and you mentioned on the episode that dropped today,
Josh: is memory going to be portable? And maybe the answer is it doesn't matter because
Josh: all of the stuff we're going to be doing is actually in the ChatGPT app itself.
Josh: So that could be an interesting way this plays out.
Ejaaz: I also just want to say that if I'm being honest, I'm kind of unimpressed by this product launch.
Ejaaz: And I have to get it off my chest because about eight months ago,
Ejaaz: OpenAI released what they call the GPT App Store, or some version of an app store.
Ejaaz: And back then it was a plugin interface where they advertised,
Ejaaz: hey, you can now plug in a Resi or OpenTable or a Zapier or whatever that might be.
Ejaaz: And suddenly you get access to these apps, to these tools, but they didn't call
Ejaaz: them apps. They called them tools.
Ejaaz: And they said, you can now add this tool in ChatGPT and it'll use it.
Ejaaz: And that kind of ended up flunking, Josh.
Ejaaz: No one actually spoke about it in the last eight months since it launched.
Ejaaz: And this doesn't seem to dissimilar. In fact, they're using a bunch of the same
Ejaaz: partners that they started.
Ejaaz: So I'm optimistic in the sense that this is an evolution from that,
Ejaaz: where, you know, it comes across as more natural.
Ejaaz: The products get integrated into my conversation. I don't need to tell it what
Ejaaz: to do, but I'm still not wowed by it.
Ejaaz: And maybe that's just me being a doomer, but I don't really see this as the
Ejaaz: chat GPT app store that this tweet that we have on our screen resembles or depicts it as.
Ejaaz: I see it more as something before that, where it's just for devs only.
Ejaaz: And I haven't really seen the magic.
Josh: Yeah, we'll see. It's funny. I downloaded a total of zero apps in that first
Josh: version, Ejaz. I never used one. I think it was totally useless.
Josh: Well, it seems like there's a possibility that the incentive structure has been
Josh: flipped now because of the amount of users that ChatGPT has,
Josh: where there's a very strong incentive to come and build for the platform.
Josh: And there's a very strong incentive for ChatGPT to offer these because the more
Josh: value they add, the less you have to leave the app. So we'll see.
Josh: I guess it's one of those things we'll see. That was one of the two major announcements
Josh: that they shared. The second is their agent kit. So, Ijaz, I know you love your AI agents.
Josh: Can you please tell us, what did they just announce in the world of agent generation?
Ejaaz: So, I love AI agents. I haven't really loved how they've materialized in the
Ejaaz: real world just yet. And my biggest gripe with AI agents is they just haven't been able to do stuff.
Ejaaz: So, when OpenAI today announced something they're calling the Agent Kit,
Ejaaz: I got really excited. They advertised it, Sam advertised it as taking agents
Ejaaz: from prototype to production.
Ejaaz: And there's three core capabilities that they announced.
Ejaaz: One called the agent builder, the other called the chat kit,
Ejaaz: which is kind of like a chat interface that you can embed in any app or agent
Ejaaz: that you build and evals for agents. So basically measuring how good your agent is.
Ejaaz: But the most exciting one of those three is the agent builder,
Ejaaz: Josh, which is a no code interface that anyone, including you or I,
Ejaaz: can use to spin up an agent in a matter of minutes. And that's actually what they did live on stream.
Ejaaz: And what's cool about this is it, have you ever used kind of like a graph builder
Ejaaz: software, Josh? I know you use it to kind of like create like design flows.
Ejaaz: It looks pretty much identical to that. So you can kind of like spin up a box,
Ejaaz: literally a shape of a box, and that represents your agent.
Ejaaz: You can then click on that agent and give it a personality, explain what it needs to do.
Ejaaz: And that uses ChatGPT on the backend and it automatically creates some code
Ejaaz: and creates that agent for you. and you can kind of like move that agent across
Ejaaz: to maybe work with another agent that you've created.
Ejaaz: And it kind of becomes this kind of gamified system of making an agent.
Ejaaz: And this agent builder, they describe it as a canvas to build agents.
Ejaaz: And it builds on top of the existing APIs that they have, as well as a few new ones.
Ejaaz: And then ChatKit is this embeddable chat interface for your agent.
Ejaaz: So if you imagine, Josh, you and I create an agent that goes out and does a
Ejaaz: bunch of research for the next couple of episodes that we're going to do for this week, right?
Ejaaz: So imagine it gets all this information, it pulls all these article links and
Ejaaz: it does all the research, it gives us some nice concise summaries.
Ejaaz: But we don't necessarily want to read all those summaries. So maybe we just
Ejaaz: want to talk to the agent itself.
Ejaaz: We can just slap in an iMessage-like interface and talk to it.
Ejaaz: And most importantly, not only can you and I talk to that agent,
Ejaaz: but other agents can talk to it.
Ejaaz: So the main takeaway for me here, and I want to get into your thoughts in a second, is...
Ejaaz: We've gone from needing to know and write code to create these automated programs
Ejaaz: that do stuff for us to not just being able to write in plain English and have the thing do the thing.
Josh: Yeah, that was the thing that stood out most to me during this section is normally
Josh: when I watch these developer days, I feel mostly excluded because,
Josh: you know, I don't really write that much code.
Josh: I'm not super familiar with how all this stuff works. But as I was watching
Josh: the demos of how this agent builder worked, it was very similar to tools I've used before.
Josh: Like you mentioned, like I use Excalibur because I love to create these visual
Josh: design graphics. Even DaVinci Resolve, the way that we edit a lot of these podcasts,
Josh: it has this kind of visual node graph where you just drag things and you connect
Josh: things and it's very much like a playground.
Josh: And they turned agent building into that type of playground where it's all in
Josh: plain English. It's all very visual.
Josh: It was really exciting because I think a lot of people are soon going to try
Josh: to experiment with being a creator themselves and building things where you
Josh: genuinely don't need to use code.
Josh: And now if I need to have something built, I can just try to make my own agent.
Josh: And the lady in the example who is, i think her name was christina she
Josh: was on stage she built an entire agent in eight minutes using zero
Josh: lines of code and it worked amazing so for that i'm
Josh: really excited we have this take on the screen from greg eisenberg it says agent
Josh: engineering is the new prompt engineering which very much feels true
Josh: um again the hottest new coding language is english um
Josh: if you can prompt an agent to do things it's
Josh: like a prompting a large language model on steroids you can
Josh: kind of compound you could use all these tools together it creates this really
Josh: fun opportunity so i think the downstream effects of this are going to be worth
Josh: observing i guess we'll follow along and see what people are actually building
Josh: with this because it left me feeling optimistic that like hey maybe we actually
Josh: can try to to build some tools ourselves do you agree disagree i
Ejaaz: Agree um and i i think that we might see some of the best examples come from
Ejaaz: the people that combine this agent kit
Ejaaz: with the app SDK that we just spoke about, right? Like, it would be cool if
Ejaaz: I could spin up an agent that doesn't just kind of like do fancy tool calling,
Ejaaz: but can use the apps that I have spoken with in my other conversations,
Ejaaz: right? It already has that context.
Ejaaz: That being said, I'm a little skeptical, Josh.
Ejaaz: Again, like, I don't know, I've got my, I must be feeling pretty doomerish today
Ejaaz: for my takes, but I'm just kind of like, okay, the example that they live demoed
Ejaaz: didn't really impress me.
Ejaaz: Like the one that she built in eight minutes was a registration agent,
Ejaaz: which can basically guide you on your way through OpenAI's Dev Day.
Ejaaz: So it tells you when the next coming talk is happening and where to walk to. I don't really care.
Ejaaz: Who cares? Like, go and do my shopping for me.
Ejaaz: Manage my accounts and make me a million dollars. I'm down for that.
Ejaaz: And maybe I'm asking for too much, but I don't really feel the magic. Okay.
Josh: So maybe I have one example that could perhaps change your mind that I'm thinking
Josh: of as you're describing this is all of our transcripts for all of our episodes,
Josh: they're public. We put them on our transistor page.
Josh: If you want to go subscribe to the RSS feed, please go do that.
Josh: Within those transcripts are all of the words that we say labeled with who says it.
Josh: And if we wanted to, in eight minutes, just like Christina did in that example,
Josh: we could build an agent ourselves just by dragging and dropping and adding a
Josh: few prompts that can analyze all of the transcripts that we've written,
Josh: turn itself into a mini GPT and answer questions as if it was Josh or EJAS.
Josh: And we could kind of query it against ourselves. We could ask,
Josh: well, what do you think Josh would say in this situation? And get an answer
Josh: is relatively decent based on creating this agent that you've trained in just a couple of minutes.
Josh: And I think, again, like a big constraint is creativity, because there is a
Josh: lot of ways that you can build these to do interesting things.
Josh: And the hardest unlock is figuring out what to do, how to use the tools to make
Josh: it interesting. So maybe that's one cool one. Like, I wouldn't hate it.
Ejaaz: I would probably use that for the YouTube comments that we get.
Josh: Our autoresponder.
Ejaaz: Yeah, because I mean, I mean, some of you listeners are so, so active.
Ejaaz: And I really, really appreciate that.
Ejaaz: The feedback we've been getting, the thoughts, the comments,
Ejaaz: the disagreements is what we live for.
Ejaaz: And Josh and I have been trying to stay up late at night responding to you guys.
Ejaaz: But hey, maybe an agent could have helped with that.
Ejaaz: But Josh, what's funny about this announcement is they weren't the only ones
Ejaaz: to announce an agent builder.
Ejaaz: In fact, I think, what was it, eight to 10 hours ago, someone else announced
Ejaaz: something. Can you walk us through this?
Josh: Yeah, this is very funny. So as I was scrolling my timeline on X,
Josh: looking for just like snippets from this presentation, I stumbled upon the 11
Josh: Labs announcement, which I think was like five hours ago.
Josh: And the video, if you could restart it just for people to watch,
Josh: it's basically the same exact visual interface that OpenAI just announced today
Josh: using the same terminology.
Josh: So what you're seeing on screen is it's this very visual kind of graphing chart
Josh: where you have these parameters and you could draw and connect these nodes on a graph.
Josh: And it's really funny to see the convergence of ideas on how things are going
Josh: to be built. like literally within hours of each other.
Josh: So I think 11 labs, they front ran OpenAI.
Josh: But the idea is that there is a directional trend here and that
Josh: everything will be easier to actually engage with you will not need to write
Josh: code you will be able to just do command the ai to your will and as these tools
Josh: get more powerful you will have more and more creative leverage and it's just
Josh: going to be this really cool self-fulfilling developer world where it's easy
Josh: to become a developer because all you need to do is speak english to the model i'm
Ejaaz: Telling you man it's going to become a business development game i mean everyone's
Ejaaz: going to create some of these automated workflow products 11 labs anthropic's
Ejaaz: probably going to come up with them.
Ejaaz: Google's probably cooking up one that they're going to announce this week.
Ejaaz: I know they've got a bunch of exciting announcements this week.
Ejaaz: So I think this type of interface is going to become pretty commoditized.
Ejaaz: What it's ultimately going to come to, and I've said this on previous episodes,
Ejaaz: is how many users do you have and how high quality is the data that you own,
Ejaaz: how useful is that data, basically.
Ejaaz: And I think OpenAI in both regards still maintain the lead and to see like a
Ejaaz: 300 million weekly active user jump in a matter of months is just insane and
Ejaaz: i'm still you know if i had to pick if i had to pick a winner open ai is still there yeah.
Josh: Okay so so overall general thoughts of the presentation do we like dislike bullish bearish
Ejaaz: I i liked it uh i am neutral on whether it's bullish or bearish because and
Ejaaz: i explained to you uh before the show started josh that sam not too long ago was promising us AGI.
Ejaaz: He was using all the acronyms under the sun to describe this amazing intelligence
Ejaaz: that can do anything in the world for you.
Ejaaz: And since then, he's kind of pivoted. He's focused more on applications.
Ejaaz: He's sold us to social media apps or to release our sweet go check out that episode that we did.
Ejaaz: If you haven't seen it already. And so I'm kind of left feeling like there's
Ejaaz: a hole in my stomach that needs to be filled.
Ejaaz: This wasn't it. But I'm hoping this is the step towards as something that fills that hole.
Josh: Nice. Okay. For me, it's funny. This might sound ridiculous and I might dislike
Josh: this take in hindsight, but it was my favorite presentation that OpenA has ever done.
Josh: And this was mostly vibes based. I don't think in terms of actual delivery,
Josh: it was anything exceptional.
Josh: But the way that they held themselves in the presentation, the look,
Josh: the styling, the delivery, the people who they brought on stage,
Josh: the examples and how they delivered them.
Josh: It was really this like flawless 60 minute presentation
Josh: that was very highly produced looked very refined
Josh: they clearly spent a lot of time on it and i just really admire that
Josh: relative to a lot of the other presentations that we're seeing where even
Josh: like the gpt5 presentation i got bored when they started showing health
Josh: demos and stuff and as a non-developer i was engaged and
Josh: excited and enthusiastic about this presentation so in terms
Josh: of vibes at least i really appreciated the thought
Josh: and care that they put into this and i think that
Josh: probably just start wraps this up two other small little noteworthy things
Josh: that i just want to drop at the end is that they did release the gpt5
Josh: plus api which means developers can now query the smartest
Josh: gpt model that's out there and also sora
Josh: 2 so the slop episode that we recorded last week well there's an api which means
Josh: that any developer can reach out to this api and generate a near infinite number
Josh: of ai slop or ai beauty depending on how you want to look at it and i'm sure
Josh: we'll be seeing a lot more outputs of both of those models in the near future.
Ejaaz: But that wraps it up. Sora 2, Sora 2, just before we wrap up,
Ejaaz: is number one on the App Store, Josh.
Ejaaz: And if any of you listeners want access to it, because Josh is a hater,
Ejaaz: but I'm kind of a lover, if you want invite codes, we both have invite codes.
Ejaaz: So comment. We do. I have four left. Give us your hottest take.
Ejaaz: Give us your hottest take and we'll drop invite codes in the comments.
Josh: Actually, yeah, that's a great incentive. I will. I have four left and I read
Josh: every comment. So leave a good one and I'll drop a code in there.
Josh: But yeah, that wraps it up. 20 minutes, you guys. we did it that was good that's
Josh: the update that is everything that opening i announced today some noteworthy
Josh: some not so noteworthy great time to be a developer let us know what you think
Josh: in the comments below thank you for watching as always and we will see you guys in the next one