Intro: tracking the weather, gardening, unhelpful aphorisms.
Let Me Run This By You: memory
Interview: We talk to Paul Holmquist about making a difference through teaching, learning
Laban Movement Analysis, and making career moves in theatre. Plus, a truly horrifying story.
FULL TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1: (
00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How are you?
Speaker 2: (
00:32)
Good. How are you? I'm pretty good. I mean, yeah. I'm I'm the Midwest is going snow. Are you getting snow today? Oh, don't. Oh God. Don't tell me good Lord above. Oh, hell Jesus. Um, I mean, I can not let me put it out into the universe. I cannot handle that. I cannot. Yeah, we're just going to put it out there. Nope, Nope. Nope. It's a big part path. I feel, I feel, um, I feel interested. I'm interested in that. You can, you can be. Yes. You can have a curiosity, curiosity, but I'm not, but I don't want it for the East coast, but just the Midwest, like a lot of stuff. I don't know, like wintery mix is how they put it.
Speaker 2: (
01:33)
Okay. You keep tabs on the weather in Chicago. Yeah, because I'm, I'm really, I have to like really pump myself up that I moved. Like, it helps me to feel like I made the right choice. That's interesting. And um, my people in my family do that people in my family, like every once in a while, every once in a while my mom would call and she'll be like, she'll tell me, she'll say like, is it snowing there? And I'm like, what? She, yeah, every morning my family is obsessed with the weather. Yes I can. My cousin Roxie, she gets all the radars and she's tracking and she knows exactly what's coming this way. I mean, she should be a meteorologist frankly. She totally should have her own show on YouTube. She's a she's. So on top of the weather and my whole family is like that.
Speaker 2: (
02:23)
I think it might be. I mean, it makes sense like that, that would have been handed down if, if it were from farmers, you know, like that would, it wouldn't be a big deal to like being to the weather. I that's like my favorite. Um, the only thing, well, not the only thing, but there was, when I went to, after my dad died, I went to the partial hospitalization program, um, in Highland park hospital. And um, in that time I had a bunch of therapists and some of them were horrible. And what, but one this one young and now looking
Speaker 3: (
03:00)
Back, they were young as hell. There were young therapists and they were probably like, what? In the, uh, anyway, this one therapist said it was a gloomy day. It was a spring gloom or like summer gloomy day. And everyone was like, Oh, this weather. And he said, you know, I just have this story. You know, whenever I, whenever I have the glooms and I feel like, and at the time I thought he was a P an idiot, but he said, when it's I had planned to go to the beach today after our therapy. Right. But now I can't go to the beach and I was just thinking, it reminds me like somewhere I'm, I'm off and depressed and somewhere there's a farmer. That's rejoicing because his life is saved. Oh,
Speaker 2: (
03:44)
Wow. Oh, wow. And
Speaker 3: (
03:46)
I was like, it's great
Speaker 2: (
03:48)
Perspective later.
Speaker 3: (
03:51)
I was like, Oh my God, that is so deep. And this farmer is like dancing because his farm is saved. And I'm like, but you know, and it's not to diminish anyone's pain, but it's also just perspective. Like you said, like perspective somewhere, someone is happy and falling in love for the first time or somewhere, you know, like,
Speaker 2: (
04:10)
Absolutely. And for some reason that also just reminds me of maybe just because talking about Chicago when I was an intern, social work school intern at Northwestern, inpatient, psychiatric, the thick people who worked that, I mean, people who work in psych hospitals are so interesting. Especially if they've been working there for a really long time and this, uh, OT, occupational therapist, guy, Fred Mahaffey. If you're out there, Fred, I love you. You taught me so much. Um, he, he's the person who introduced me to DBT. Um, and I was sitting in his group and he came in and he said, I just got a very upsetting, or I got a very troubling phone call, but I couldn't get into it because I have this group. And so right now, the thing I'm going to practice is, I can't know until I know
Speaker 3: (
05:06)
Fred, you're amazing.
Speaker 2: (
05:08)
Right? I mean, I think about that all the time. You can't know until, you know, which is really so much about worry and anxiety. It's all this worry about the things that we don't know. And sometimes that's appropriate sometimes. Yeah. You should be worried because something terrible is going to happen. And other times you just waste all of the in-between and then it turns out to be nothing. And you've just been tied up in knots for no reason.
Speaker 3: (
05:32)
I am. The more, the older I get, the more I'm I sort of, um, am drawn to, um, Tibetan, Buddhism. And I am reading, I read it every couple years. I read Pema childrens when things fall apart, heart advice for hard times or difficult times. It's brilliant. It's it's saving me in terms of, it goes beyond just don't strangle your hustle. It goes beyond that into life. Has you licked life when life has you licked when you're licked, there is no hope. And that is truly where the new beginning begins. Oh, wow. I can get on board with that because when I, it reminds me of, and they talk a lot about, uh, she talks, Pema talks a lot about, and I'm sure she's not the only one, obviously in Buddhism. Groundlessness how we are. We are grasping for the ground at all times. And there is no ground.
Speaker 3: (
06:33)
Now look, if you're in acute psychiatric distress, this is not a helpful book because it is, I'm not saying that, but if you have some perspective, like we're saying, if you have like, I have, I'm not in acute psychiatric distress, praise God. Um, but once, once you can get stepped back a little bit and see, Oh my, my addiction to hope my addiction to things are going to get better is actually, might not actually be helping me as much as I think that it is. Um, when I'm licked in my life, when I, when life has nailed me is true. And I can admit it is truly when I begin to settle in and good things happen in my life. It's just every time. Wow. Which is why 12 step programs work. Absolutely. Yeah. That's
Speaker 4: (
07:28)
Notion of like clinging always to hope. That's very interesting. I remember this patient. I encountered also when I was in training, I think it was also at Northwestern. I think looking back, she had like low IQ, you know, if you have low IQ and personality disorder, that's a tough combo because a lot of the what's necessary for healing personality disorders, like a great understanding of what you're doing and how she's just so sweet in a way she'd come in. And she had all these aphorisms, she was, and I just got to keep the hope alive and I just got it. And I just got it's tomorrow's another day. And you know, and I w I always pictured her like a leaky bucket. Cause she'd get all filled up, you know, in this group with everything she needed. And then it's like, the minute she passed the threshold of the door, it all just leaked. Right.
Speaker 3: (
08:28)
Oh my God.
Speaker 4: (
08:29)
And I remember thinking like, maybe all these positive messages are actually really not helping her. Cause it's, it's, it's giving a, I don't want to say it's a false hope, but it's like, and I hate this and I've said this on the podcast before. So I apologize for repeating myself, but I hate the good vibes. Only no bad days crew, because it's so unrealistic. And it makes people paradoxically so much more.
Speaker 3: (
08:57)
And I think it makes them enraged. So I think the under for me, what usually yeah, under and under rage is extreme for me is extreme sadness and hopelessness. And, but the rage that comes up w with, you know, life is good. Crew is like, when people don't jive with it, because it's like, if life is good, then dot, dot, dot, wired children murdered. If life is good, then why are police killing? You know, like what are you talking about? And I think that's a spiritual bypass people do.
Speaker 4: (
09:32)
So if I'm going to make an inspirational mug, mine is going to say, life is good dot, dot dot sometimes because it is good sometimes. And then on the other side, life is bad dot, dot, dot. Sometimes like the point is you take the good, when you can get it,
Speaker 3: (
09:51)
[inaudible] burn out. I loved that show. My God loved it.
Speaker 4: (
10:02)
2d on roller skates. I lived and died by T I w I roller skated because her,
Speaker 3: (
10:08)
I was going to say, is that part of your cause you're a roller skater. Yeah. Uh, I was a big Joe fan,
Speaker 4: (
10:14)
Joe. Aha. Yeah, she was cool. She was cool. Hated Blair. Of course,
Speaker 3: (
10:17)
Most people did, Natalie. I felt bad for her
Speaker 4: (
10:22)
For Natalie too. I kind of felt like she wanted her to get off.
Speaker 3: (
10:27)
She was a trope. You know, she was a sad, sad truck. Well, I have been accepted as, uh, an official member of the Myrtle tree climate action team. [inaudible]
Speaker 4: (
10:41)
The name of the group that does your CSA or your, whatever, your
Speaker 3: (
10:45)
It's, the Myrtle tree cafe. They that's where they used to meet before COVID Myrtle. I think put, forgive me. If I say this wrong, a Myrtle tree cafe, climate action team. It's amazing. We're superheroes. That's a crazy, like I'm an official member. So I get a key and an orientation Wednesday, I'm telling you that gardening has really changed and changed my life in terms of my health and, and feeling like I'm doing something for the planet, both it's crazy. It's just gardening. It's not like I'm, you know,
Speaker 4: (
11:24)
But that's what they say. Little acts are revolutionary. Like just being responsible for like learn, learn, even just learning where all your food comes from. And like, that's, that's a smaller
Speaker 3: (
11:36)
Food came from. McDonald's like, I literally thought that that McDonald's was the food source, you know, or Jack in the box. That's not actually what it is. I was going to ask you, what are you going to grow? That's my question for you. Uh, we have
Speaker 4: (
11:54)
Some debates about the things to grow. And mostly I was doing this. I was picking things out with my oldest son and he, he was actually being quite logical about it. He, I wanted to get kale and co and he was like, mom, nobody likes kale, including you, which is really true. And you're the only person who likes Brussels sprouts. And you're the only person who likes cauliflower. Let's get broccoli and bell pepper. And he loves hot things. So we got some jalapenos. And so we got a broccoli, a jalapeno, a bell pepper. And then we have, um, uh, my daughter has, she was really into the seeds thing. She got like a lunch and I don't feel, I feel like none of them are gonna work out, but she got some flowers and
Speaker 3: (
12:50)
Some flowers might they're super hearty. Some flowers might come up and last for about 45 years. So just sunflowers are hurting.
Speaker 4: (
13:00)
You have a great spot for sunflower. So that'd be great. So anyway, so we're just starting like easy peasy because you know, we don't, we've never done it before and we're not sure how it's going to go. So that is one to invest a bunch of money in something
Speaker 3: (
13:12)
We'll do that. And if you have pests that are non, uh, this is so interesting to me when you have like aphids or inch worms or stuff like that. A lot of times, not all the times, I'm learning a lot of times, it means that your soil health is in jeopardy, not the actual plant. This is crazy. So a lot of times pest the TAC plants that aren't doing so well. Anyway, it's so crazy. I never knew that. I thought, Oh, they attack it because they're. Well, no, they might be, there might be an occasional inchworm, you know, like a Trump worm. But, but, but a lot of times pest can tell when the plant, the soil,
Speaker 4: (
13:55)
I'm carrying around a semi with a bit to pay or whatever,
Speaker 3: (
14:02)
There's our chick there's McDonald's McFlurry in one hand. Um, there's our kids show right there. Let me run this by you.
Speaker 4: (
14:23)
I have a thing to talk to you about that is, um, it's kind of a bummer and I'm feeling good. I'm not sure if I should bring it up, but maybe I'll try to have a new perspective about it. Okay. I've had a couple memory slips that have been troubling.
Speaker 3: (
14:42)
Oh, tell me all about, it
Speaker 4: (
14:45)
Was one moment. I just couldn't remember my passcode to my phone. Okay. It came to me a couple of hours later. Okay. But I thought it was this one thing, and then it was Aaron had my phone and he's like, what's your passcode? And I, and I give him this passcode that doesn't work in it. And I'm like, Oh, well, maybe it's. And then all of a sudden it just like vanished. And I really started freaking out, like, yes, I freaked freaking out because, and I think, I think this might be something I inherited from my mother is very concerned about losing her memory. This is like her biggest fear. So whenever she forgets something, she panics and to the point that I feel she doesn't allow for any just normal forgetting of things, which I haven't had that problem berating myself for the normal forgetting things.
Speaker 4: (
15:44)
But that passcode thing freaking like, it just, it just was gone. It was there. And then it was gone. That was one. And the other thing I'm probably going to have a hard time remembering. Um, no, I think actually there, isn't another thing like that. It's just more that I, it's just more that I, you know, because kids have great memories and my kids are constantly telling me, remember when we, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, ah, thankfully I really did. We, did we do that? Is that normal? Or should I start my Gingko biloba? I do so many, a word puzzle. I should have good brains.
Speaker 3: (
16:19)
So what, the first thing that comes to mind is that I know, okay, this podcast right. Is bringing up a lot of memories for people, for us and for people. Okay. I believe that sometimes trauma stored when it comes out or even, even, even all this we're, we're taking in other people's trauma too. Right. That's true. So your mind can only hold so much. So I'm wondering if that also is a response to an overload of other your, and you do all the editing. You do every, you listen and listen. So you're taking it in over and over again. And the, and people were traumatized, you know, not everybody, but a lot of people that we talked to have been traumatized by their experience. So, uh, in college and so, and subsequent and what it meant and all that. So I'm wondering if you're partially it is just a trauma re a response to a lot of information going into your brain. Um,
Speaker 4: (
17:32)
It could be, and as a, as a mother, I do have to remember so many. I mean, honestly, the landscape of what I have to remember is it's astounding. Um, and, and people do say that there's like a fog of motherhood that, you know, you never, you never get it back, but you have an excellent memory. You have an excellent short-term memory. Well, your long-term though. You've struggled to remember things about
Speaker 3: (
17:59)
I never, no, I also never remember your birthday to save my life. Now I have it in my phone. Like, it's just so weird. And it's not just your birthday. I don't remember people. People will tell me my birthday is September 22nd. And I'm like, no, no, it's not. I went so no. So my memory, my memory, I also don't have children, but also, um, I know that, okay. So when my, when my father was dying in the hospital, my memory, I couldn't remember where I parked ever. When I would go visit him at the hospital, I would be sobbing, wandering around the parking lot until one came to pick me up in a little cart and drove me. And he said, the guy said it happens all the time with people visiting loved ones in the hospital, because they're so traumatized. They never remember where they parked, even though I would re I would like, I didn't even write it down, you know? Cause I was so wigged out, but I would say C 14, C four, or whatever it is and no memory after I would visit my father in the ICU. So I just think trauma and, um, or just
Speaker 4: (
19:10)
Even upsetting feelings can
Speaker 3: (
19:13)
Overload, um, listening to other people's stuff. It's it's our brains are not that big. If you think about it's like we have a super, I mean, you know, there's a lot there's and we only use, they say part of it, but I would venture to say, we use more than they say. Um,
Speaker 4: (
19:28)
Yes. I recently read that that's a myth. It's not true that we use 10% of our abuse, all of our brains. I mean, which is not to say that you can, I think what that myth comes from is like, you can expand your, you can flex your muscle, your, the muscle of your brain, you can strengthen it or weaken it. Um, which is why I'm like addicted to doing all these little puzzles.
Speaker 3: (
19:51)
Yeah. I mean, I know that it's scary. So then it's scary. So I had a similar thing where when we came back from, I would have sworn that my code to the locker was we have a locker that has stores are male. It's like, it's really great package lacquer. And I just couldn't for the mine was more like, I just knew in my head it was a number. And so I kept entering it and it was like, no, no, no. And I was like, well, something must be wrong with this machine. I had the wrong number the whole time, but I was convinced that it was this one number. And I'm like, and anyway, I was dumbfounded when I found out it was really this other number. I was like,
Speaker 4: (
20:29)
Yeah. I mean, I, I, now that we're talking about it, I, I do think it's normal, but it's also about aging. It's really hard to separate out. Oh, hang on. My phone is ringing. It's really hard to separate out the things that we should be worried versus the things that are normal. Right.
Speaker 3: (
20:50)
Bought it with my ticker. I'm like, Oh my gosh. You know? And my, my cardiologist is not that worried, but then I get worried. It's just, um, you hit, this is what my in the hospital, what they told me, you hit 40, between 40 and 50. And the check engine light comes on 90% more than it ever does. And you're like, what is happening in what? And, and really what, we're, what I'm asking. Anyway, when I ask these questions of doctors and things is when am I going to die? Am I going to die? Is this going to kill me? And it's not, I'm not like we talk about, I'm not petrified of death. What I'm petrified of is losing control. Right? So I'm really asking, is this going to be something I have no control over? And like at any moment is some weird stuff going to happen to me. And the answer is maybe they don't know, but they, they know more than we do use because of all the schooling and the, and the research. But they, no one can tell you exactly when you're going to die.
Speaker 4: (
21:50)
Dare I say, we can't know until we know always looking to land that plane right back and forth today,
Speaker 3: (
22:03)
I'll tell you about my poop in the backyard story. All right. I was a latchkey kid, as a lot of us were. And my mom was a working mom who, who was very, very type a at times and mean at times. And, uh, woes talks about that. And Lee left my key, lost my key or left it at school or something came home. No key, no way. I was going to walk to my mom's office, which was only eight blocks away because I was petrified because I left my key. I was just going to wait until someone got home. Pretend I had just walked home. It was a whole orchestrated thing app. But then I had to go to the bathroom number two. And I was like, Oh no, what do you do? So a normal person might go to the neighbor's house. Who might, by the way, might've had a key and said, can I use your bathroom?
Speaker 3: (
22:56)
But I was so embarrassed that I had to poop that I didn't. So then I'm waiting and I'm like, I got poop. So then I tried to break in the house by pulling screens out of the basement and I break a window and I'm like, Oh my God. Gosh. So it just, anyway, I ended up pooping in the backyard. Okay. This is rough pooping in the backyard doing my business. It was a whole situation. Uh, and then someone came home and I, I, my, I did my plan as a plan. Right. And did your scene, did my scene? It worked out, people were received really convinced. Don't ask me any of the technical stuff about the pooping, but anyway, so the point not that you were going to, but the, the, the point is then in the middle we're we're having, uh, a fine evening. And then I hear my mom's screaming in the basement. Oh no. She's like someone tried to break in and I don't say anything. This is the thing about fear and shame. I say nothing. They call the police.
Speaker 4: (
24:03)
No. Oh dear. Uh, Oh, this is not good.
Speaker 3: (
24:07)
He's come. And they're like, and I'm petrified. They're going to dust for prints. And then match as only a child who was obsessed with true crime. This was right around the time of America's most wanted and uncle mysteries. And I'm like, Oh my God, how do I get off my fingerprints? I didn't go down that road. I didn't cut myself or hurt myself in any way. Other than my pride and shame, the police are like, well, it, yeah, it looks like someone may have tried to break in, but so then, but they left, but then it didn't end there in the middle of the night, I set my alarm and I went down into the basement and I took the glass, the remaining glass, and I walked three blocks and put it in someone else's garbage so that they could never find my prints again.
Speaker 3: (
25:03)
So I was telling this to a friend and they were like, Whoa, we were unpacking it. And I guess the thing is, I was so ashamed. It was so I was so ashamed of the mom thing, but it manifested in the poop thing. And like, just ashamed that I had needs of any kind or that I would make a mistake or forget something that I went to such lengths to cover it up. And I just, I think we do these things and it just reminds me of like, you know what we always say on this podcast, which is like, you know, it's better to just own up, but when you're a kid and you feel like you're going to die or something terrible is going to happen to you, if you, if you own up to your mistake, you go through such lengths. And I just am not willing to go through those lengths anymore. I just can't do it. I just, it's not worth it. And one of the things
Speaker 4: (
25:56)
Is that we've learned from the people who have almost come on the podcast, but then ultimately said, I can't, it's too painful. Um, we've often had the experience that those people seemed perfectly happy, go lucky, et cetera. So, so, so we, as humans are constantly berating ourselves, like you say, for having needs, for having bad experiences, to the point that we won't share with anybody that we're having a bad experience, which of course makes us feel worse, more lonely, more isolated, more helpless, more hopeless. Um, so that,
Speaker 3: (
26:37)
You know, it's almost like
Speaker 4: (
26:39)
The dam, the dam breaks you, you, you can only shove or, or the image of the closet. You can only shove so many things in the closet. And one day you open up the closet and it just can't take it anymore. And it all comes spilling out. And it's understandable. I'm not saying that people should, you know, I'm not saying that it should be any other way than it is. I'm just saying, I guess what I'm really saying is if you're 25 and listening to this, and you're a person who's hiding all of your things, just ask yourself, what is it, what am I hiding? What am I really afraid of? And like, try to tease it out. Is this something you should really be ashamed about or afraid of sharing with other people? Because it's probably not that big of a deal.
Speaker 3: (
27:24)
No, it's not worth it. It's not, usually it's not worth it now. I don't know. You know, for me, it has not been worth it. So I was thinking about that story, just the gymnastics. I went through the physical gymnastics. The, I could have cut myself on the glass, like what in the, but it just, it's a deep thing. And I was telling a friend that, and she was like, Whoa, this is so deep. So is it that you're
Speaker 4: (
27:49)
Thinking because your mom is type a or you thinking she's, she's the kind of person who's definitely going to try to get to the bottom of this and would, would raise, would get to the point where she would be asking somebody to dust for fingerprints.
Speaker 3: (
28:06)
It was more like, it was more like trying to put that floating Molly bolt shelf into the wall that, and the whole, it just, the story of my childhood was whenever I was doing the best I could. But whenever I, I would try to keep it all together. The whole would get bigger and bigger and no one would help me out of the hole. I think that's the other part is that I had to do everything by myself and that my mother would ultimately say, what is wrong with you? You should have X, Y, and Z. So instead of facing that shame, I just tried to do it on my own and it never worked ever, ever, never, ever. So I think, yeah, I think it's the fact of I was alone and I just kept making things worse because I didn't know. I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could share with anybody. So it's like at some point you got to step back from the hole in the wall and say, I'm licked. This has got me. I need to ask for a mechanic. A handy has, I don't even know a handyman to help, not a mechanic.
Speaker 4: (
29:12)
The thing that also that, that tends to do in people, um, when they feel like they can never ask anybody for help is they can never develop intimate relationships with people because you, you, if you can never trust that. So when were you first in your life, was it with miles that you were first able to have real intimacy that you would just be yeah. Trust him too.
Speaker 3: (
29:34)
Yeah. That needs to not go away to not leave, to not be like, Oh my God, you forgot your key. I'm never talking to you. You know, whatever it is. That was really, so I, that was, I was 30. I mean, come on. I mean, 30 years old, 30 years of not trusting. So it's really interesting. That takes a toll on your ticker. I'm telling you right now, you take a toll on your ticker. Um, yeah. So just, just a little, a light, poop story to wrap it up today. It's all, it's all, frankly, it's all poop stories. It's all food stories, right? At the end of the day, it's all, it's all shame
Speaker 5: (
30:19)
Today on the podcast, we talk with Paul Holmquist Paul home quiz. We went to school with back in the day and after we graduated, he continued to be a theater actor for many years, and then transitioned into directing for the stage. At a couple of years ago, he felt he really wanted to make a difference. And he decided to become a high school English teacher, which is what he does now, in addition to being an artist he's thoughtful and kind his stories really were moving. And I'm so grateful that he decided to speak with us. So please enjoy our conversation with Paul home quit. This is my second year. I just joined the profile. Very new. You just became a teacher two years ago.
Speaker 3: (
31:06)
Oh, that's cool. Where do you teach?
Speaker 6: (
31:08)
Yeah, I teach at a South side, Chicago vocational high school called shop, uh, Chicago vocational career Academy. It's down by the Skyway. Like if you're driving down the Skyway, there's a giant, looks like a Batman villain, hideout. That's Chicago vocational.
Speaker 3: (
31:25)
And so did you, um, how come you made that career shift? Yeah. Tell us all about it. Tell us all about it
Speaker 6: (
31:34)
Is it's okay to talk politics. Sure. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, uh, you know, when Trump got elected, I was like, I gotta do something different and I don't quite know what it is, but maybe I could teach high school English because I have a background in theater, but it just seemed like maybe I need to do something because I was working a really great day job for like 15 years that had benefits in it, fairly decent salary, allowing me to do theater and stuff. But once the election hit, it was just felt like something I needed to change something. I was not very satisfied with. Um, you know, there was like no growth at my day job. What was that job? Uh, admin administrative assistant position at, at, uh, Columbia college. So I was still kind of close to the artistic community while I was working there.
Speaker 6: (
32:23)
But, um, I had kind of a neurotic boss and I was there for 15 years and there was no, like, there was no growth. I'd kind of plateaued there. Um, and I wasn't making a difference anywhere, so it felt like I needed to do something. So I was like, I'm going to become a high school English teacher. Wow. Uh, so I went back to DePaul. I became a double demon and I that's what they call it. That's what they call it. Um, so I went to the college of education and got a master's, uh, there
Speaker 2: (
32:54)
That's so great. Uh, education is a fantastic way to make a difference.
Speaker 6: (
33:00)
Yeah. It's um, and it's, uh, a good segue from the, uh, from the theater work. I mean, there's, there's a lot of parallels
Speaker 2: (
33:09)
Say, uh, beans. Didn't say her usual opening. Congratulations, Paul Holmquist you survived theater school.
Speaker 6: (
33:17)
I'm still here to tell the tale.
Speaker 2: (
33:18)
I want to be a double demon. I love this phrase. I think we should use it all ways. Even if you didn't get two degrees from DePaul, I feel I'm a double demon because I spent so much time talking about school.
Speaker 6: (
33:31)
Right? You got a master's degree in the theater school after going to the funeral,
Speaker 2: (
33:35)
By the way, I have masters in processing your theater school education.
Speaker 6: (
33:40)
My I've been listening to your podcast now. And I had, I actually had to take a break before for the last week or else I'd be too neurotic about what I was going to say too, but I really find this podcast to be so personally helpful. Like I find it's like, it feels like a, like a group therapy kind of process, but protracted where Rouge taking turns, but hearing other alum, just talk about what they experienced. I was like, Holy cow, I'm not alone. I had similar experiences and wow. Wow.
Speaker 2: (
34:14)
What's, what's an example of something that really resonated with you.
Speaker 6: (
34:18)
Hm. Well, I guess I, I thought this is coming off of hearing, uh, interviews from, from friends like Bradley Walker and Eric Slater is I thought those upperclassmen guys had it all together. You know, Lee, Lee, Kirk, I thought these guys were like, just had just knew what they were going for and knew what they were doing. They just seemed so successful. And I was felt like, you know, like I was flailing along, trying to find my way. It's so great to hear that, um, to hear, uh, Bradley talk about his, uh, coin tricks with, with such despair, like as if it, but on my end, I thought he was the coolest dude. Like he had this cool thing and Slater was so awesome. Like, I didn't know he was insecure. Like all, I've just, all of that stuff is really, really great.
Speaker 2: (
35:10)
I, I think that's, I mean, obviously that's part of why, why I think we do it is, is, is to, um, facilitate some kind of, if not healing, cause that's a kind of lofty word, but some kind of let's not go there, but, but, um, understanding or comradery in the fact that we all, um, went through this thing, it's true. And most people felt like an outsider. Most people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I want to be like, if you're, if you're in theater score right now, spoiler alert, everybody look around you, the person on your right and bruise on your left. They also feel the same way you do. Uh, but unfortunately we cannot say that at the time because we're busy, like trying to seem like we have it all together. That's, that's a common thing. And there is also a little bit of like, you don't want to admit weakness in theater school, except at the exact moment you need to access it for a scene that you're in.
Speaker 6: (
36:10)
Well, I, and it really it's. It strikes for me the difference between being an MFA and being a BFA is coming in as an adolescent. Like you're still in developmental processes that haven't resolved while you're going through this, you know, self-reflective, um, w all the body stuff, uh, that comes up, and that was so fascinating to hear that it came up for other people too. Like all of that stuff is part of while we're in the process of personality development to have to be under fire from these artists, from the seventies who have different politics and strange ideas, Bob Dylan taught us.
Speaker 2: (
36:52)
Yeah, exactly. So, but when you were doing your day job, um, that you left work, you were doing theater at night. Is that what,
Speaker 6: (
37:02)
Yeah. Um, I mean, for the past, like 20 years, I've, I've directed and acted in shows, um, pretty regularly. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (
37:12)
And w um, did you have like a, a place where you mostly hung out a theater company that you were a part of,
Speaker 6: (
37:18)
Right? Yeah. So right after college, um, I didn't really hook up with a theater company, but that seemed to be the, the way for Chicago actors to go after graduation was to like either link up together or link up with another theater company to start. And I, I remember because the timeline was so new then, um, and I did a show with them, like their second show that Barry Burnett directed. And, um, and I had a feeling in my, I had like this investment in my heart, like, okay, I'm going to be a timeline guy regret. I'm going to join up with PJ. And, and we're, I'm going to be a part of that Juliet and be a part of that group. And it didn't pan out that way. I ended up, um, kind of gravitating up into Andersonville, working with the Griffin theater where another, uh, DePaul alumni and Rick Barletta was, uh, artistic director.
Speaker 6: (
38:11)
Um, he was a good minimal director, Goodman train director. Um, so I still stuck with some DePaul people, um, kind of grew up with the Griffin theater. And then, uh, in 2006, I joined lifeline theater, which is up here in Rogers park, uh, where I live. So it comes through from where I live and I've been there since we do literary adaptations, um, all original plays. And, uh, so I've had the pleasure of directing amazing stuff, like the count of Monte Cristo and Frankenstein and the Island of Dr. Moreau and, um, you know, British murder mysteries and a wide range of really cool.
Speaker 2: (
38:49)
Fantastic. How did you go? So you started directing then. So how did you bridge that situation?
Speaker 6: (
38:55)
I, I, yeah, I kind of, well through my, a little bit of set up here. So through my day job, I got, um, trained in Laban's movement analysis, which is a movement theatrical, physical expressional, expressionistic movement, modality. It's kinda like, um, I don't know if you remember, Patrice did stuff with us about, uh, punch and float, like dad, that kind of stuff. So, um, through the department I was working for, I was able to get a graduate certificate in this modality for free, and I wanted to apply it to my own acting. And so I, I was doing, I was playing a cat in a, uh, in a, in a young adult show called Angus thongs. And full-frontal, snogging at, uh, at Griffin theater. I played, I played Angus. I had no lines, but I was a cat and I was doing all this physical stuff.
Speaker 6: (
39:53)
And I was getting to know through that production, um, a lot of the, uh, uh, main players that lifeline, because they were doing a lot of the design on this show and kind of getting to know them and having a good rapport with them. They're designers not, um, are not, uh, acting, directing people. Um, but I've developed a good rapport with them. And that kind of started to introduce me to the people at lifeline. And eventually they invited me to direct a kid's show, um, just as an experiment. And I tried directing, uh, Ricky ticky TAVI, and that became a great success. Um, and then after that, my first, actually my first main stage show was, uh, the Island of Dr. Moreau, which was a 90 minute immersive, violent horror piece. So I like, I right away jumped into something that was really bizarre and, uh, unusual. And since then, it's been just a blast. I mean, I get to get a lot of creative freedom.
Speaker 2: (
40:51)
I have to ask you a question. I recently have heard this term all over the place immersive. And I don't, if I knew what it was previously, I, it, it didn't drop in because when I think of immersive, I think like you go to a haunted house,
Speaker 6: (
41:09)
Right? No. Right, right. I guess I think of immersive as be like a full sensory experience, as much as possible. And, um, you know, in storefront theaters, especially places like lifeline, where you can have entrances surround the audience, you can really have the sense of like an actor's right next to you that, and they're acting like an animal breathing in your ear and it creates a sort of sense of tension. I'm going back 20 years. And I'm thinking about this show, but that's what I think of an immersive theater. People might think of it as like you're wandering around from room to room. You're more interactive like that, I guess.
Speaker 2: (
41:47)
Yeah. It's I saw cats on Broadway in the eighties. It was him. Cats came right next to me. So that was immersive. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that because, uh, I, I thought it was one of those things, like I felt it was, it was too dumb to ask about. Okay. So where you,
Speaker 6: (
42:06)
Uh, I'm from upstate New York. I'm from the Rochester New York area, a little suburb called Webster.
Speaker 2: (
42:12)
Okay. And, um, but you have not ever returned there after school. You stayed in Chicago. You've been in Chicago, stayed in Chicago. Okay. Yeah. Did you grow up acting?
Speaker 6: (
42:22)
Uh, yeah, I thought of this, of course. Like, I think it was around fourth grade that I was in my first school play and it felt like, um, uh, people liked what I was doing and it was, it was one of those, like I'm coming into my own. I'm like 10 years old, starting to figure out, you know, think about who I might want to be identity wise. And that seemed to, um, to work for me now, then when I changed schools in seventh grade, I was shy. I was never really athletic or, um, I picked up the trumpet, but I wasn't a great musician, you know, but I got a lot of great response when I did theater work. And that just kind of, uh, that's what grew, you know, you gravitate towards those things where you get the positive feedback
Speaker 2: (
43:12)
That is. Did you have, did you have one of those intense, uh, like high school drama? I know you said you've listened to some of the podcasts. You've probably heard tell if some character, uh, teachers from high school.
Speaker 6: (
43:25)
I had a wonderful drama person who was not, we had no drama classes. We did not take any acting classes or have any, any sort of immersion like that. We just did two shows a year, a play and a musical. And, um, uh, so you just hung out at the club and, and picked up what you picked up. But my drama teacher, she knew that I was serious and there was a, uh, a guy who's a year ahead of me in college who ended up going to Tisch, um, a year ahead of me in high school. I ended up going and he and I were, we did a two man show called the greater tuna. Can I show you something real quick? Hold on. I was like, tuna is hilarious. That's from greater China. So this is Mark and I in costume playing all of our different characters in high school.
Speaker 2: (
44:21)
Amazing. Wow. That's some production value.
Speaker 6: (
44:28)
So that's a high school. It's a two man show. Uh, multicharacter, it's kind of like mystery of Irma VEP where, you know, you run off stage and you change costume real quick and come back on. So Mark and I, we took, uh, our acting kind of seriously. We took ourselves somewhat seriously as actors. Um, and, uh, Tish was definitely on my list when I was looking for colleges.
Speaker 2: (
44:51)
Well, yeah. How'd you end up at DePaul. I love the, the choosing stories or how they choose.
Speaker 6: (
44:57)
Um, yeah, totally. So, uh, Tish, uh, I was accepted at Tisch and I even got a little money at Tisch, but they accepted me into the experimental theater wing and I had no idea what that was and it didn't seem like me. I mean, I had grown up in kind of a cul-de-sac of a suburb, you know, with very limited exposure to what experimental theater might even be. So, but DePaul just felt like so nice. I came to DePaul after, uh, visiting New York city and then auditioning there. And, um, so I auditioned at DePaul in the theater school building with Dave [inaudible]. He wouldn't remember that he was in my audition group, but I remember him in his cutoff jeans and his Janice chocolate. T-shirt very well. I was so enamored with him because he seemed so, um, organic. Whereas I was at wearing a black mock turtleneck and black jeans and slicked back hair, and I was trying to be very artistic. I was also in the middle of playing Tevya in a Fiddler on the roof in high school, the most Arion Tevya
Speaker 2: (
46:10)
Well, you probably didn't have any Jews in your high school
Speaker 6: (
46:14)
If I, yeah. I don't know if we did. They probably weren't involved in the theater department as much as I want. Yeah. So it was like, uh, I was coming in there trying to be a serious artist and I saw David, um, and I didn't know him, you know, at all. I was just seeing him for the first time. And I was like, this is wild. This is what I want to get into. So part of what inspired me was John Jenkins leading the, uh, audition, which I thought he was just a brilliant guy and watching David and the audition made me feel like I want to be there.
Speaker 2: (
46:46)
Does he know that now? You we'll have to tell him to listen to this one. You just remind, I guess we haven't really ever talked boss, correct me if I'm wrong. Have we ever talked about the fact that we did part of the audition all together in the same room? Is that what you're talking about? Like the thing,
Speaker 6: (
47:07)
So John, I remember this so vividly, uh, John had us doing a scenario where we were, um, a Hunter in a forest and we were going to like walk along one side of the wall and the animal that we're hunting does a diagonal cross across the room. And we chase after it and halfway through crossing the room, we leak like the animal is supposed to mimic the animals. And part of the crossing, like the hunting, we were supposed to step on rocks in a stream or something like that to cross it. And I was just like, Oh, you know, I had everything planned out. I remember overthinking it very much, but also like being in line, waiting your turn, you're observing how other people are doing it. And this is, this is where David really comes in because when he left like that animal, he seemed to take air in the room, uh, because he was Unbound by his own, you know, insecurity or at least that's the way I interpret it. Wow. I'm really, do you find David kind of funny?
Speaker 2: (
48:05)
That's okay. It's okay. So you said taking yourself seriously and overthinking ding, ding, ding. These are things I really relate to. These are near and dear to my heart. What is your journey then of taking yourself seriously? And, you know, like, has there been any
Speaker 6: (
48:22)
Evolution or moving on that, like, you're going to think I'm nuts for saying this, but I swear that the show has helped in a little way. So I feel like I'm still in a process of recognizing what my expectations were, you know, for myself and my career. How did those change was and how w how was I influenced to change my ideas about that? And where am I now? Like, what do I want for myself now as an artist? And then how has that shifted, uh, that, so I've done a lot of processing on those because I am in therapy and I have been for a while, but also your show has really helped also turn some pages for me. So, thanks.
Speaker 2: (
49:01)
So welcome believably. Wonderful. Thank you. That's very touching. I just want it. So in terms of taking yourself seriously, I feel like there that's a way to go. I took myself. It was like, I had such self-centered fear that I didn't take myself seriously, but I took my fear really seriously, of the, of, of being at school. You know, it was different. I wish I had taken myself seriously as an artist, but really what I did was just dive right into my shame and feeling. I just really did a deep dive into that. And so I'm wondering, how did you learn to take you're like, I know we're saying like, taking ourselves seriously can be kind of a, it can be, um, an Achilles heel, but also like, did you just, were you just born with like, yes, I'm an artist and here I am at school?
Speaker 6: (
49:52)
No. I mean, I think that what started up school was using alcohol and drugs to keep myself from feeling that kind of fear and insecurity. So, um, you know, going at school, going to classes with kind of a boldness and an energy while also fighting a little bit of a hangover, or maybe still maybe, maybe coming to class a little high, you know, that helped a lot. Now, there you go. That makes, and then, and it all fit in with taking myself seriously as an artist because artists drink get high all the time. You would talk about apartment, what was it through your car? And like, you know, we're going to get high and we're going to do space out there at work. Like I'm a serious artist, you know, I can really feel the weight of my space objects when I am stone.
Speaker 2: (
50:47)
You guys, do you ever wonder, like, is that, do you think that's still part of the college? I guess it probably is. It's probably still very much a part of the college experience,
Speaker 6: (
50:57)
Right? Yeah. I don't think drugs will ever stop being or anything that's illegal is going to stop.
Speaker 2: (
51:03)
It's just that we T we talked to somebody last week who is at the theater school now he's graduating this year and I didn't ask him, but I wanted to know, like, so, like, what's the, I mean, he's talked very wonderfully about the experience of, of being an actor at the school, but I also kind of wanted you to like, what's the whole social scene. I want it to be like, where you like me drinking Mickey's forties, big mouth and peeing on school property, but I didn't ask him, but I did not ask that because I thought, yeah, he probably, he might not have wanted to say in any case in it.
Speaker 6: (
51:41)
Well, um, my wife is on faculty there now, so she teaches, she teaches movement there now. And I've been back a couple of times that directed an intro there, and I've done some guest lecturing there. So I've been back in the new building and the old building before it was torn down. So I've kind of maintained some ties to the theater school over the years. Um, and I don't think, I think the students, the student experience has changed just because the times have changed so much, you know, and the, the, um, but, and I think they're a little bit more savvy than perhaps we were, they don't do the God squad parties, but I think they still probably have some form of God squad, but it's not the like,
Speaker 2: (
52:26)
Right. That's probably for the best, you know, I was going to say the person we interviewed that is at the theater school, talked about your wife and said that one of the reasons that he loved the audition process was, or when he went, he took, I think, a movement class with her and, and that he talked about her. So anyway, we're coming full circle here. It's real crazy.
Speaker 6: (
52:47)
That's great. And it's so fun to hear these stories too, and to talk about them with Christina, because she's working with Phyllis and Patrice, uh, she worked with John, she worked with John Bridges. She's, you know, she knows these people, so they're, and so that history is still living, you know, sensory still. Yes.
Speaker 2: (
53:03)
So what did you, so you got this movement training and Oh, and you with it, you taught that's, that's
Speaker 6: (
53:10)
A little bit of teaching that way. Okay.
Speaker 2: (
53:12)
Sorry. Did you say where you were teaching that
Speaker 6: (
53:15)
Columbia at Columbia college, Chicago, but not in the theater department. It was through this other, uh, graduate, uh, arts therapy department that I was working. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2: (
53:26)
So now that there's no more cuts system there, isn't this a direct connection between the theater school and Columbia, because yeah.
Speaker 6: (
53:35)
You don't have a feeder college going into going into the code base. Right.
Speaker 2: (
53:38)
Is it still a very robust acting program there?
Speaker 6: (
53:41)
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, and still has that sort of scrappy energy, um, you know, Sheldon, I think really established, uh, um, um, uh, pathos around that place around that building and that program that still continues.
Speaker 2: (
53:59)
Um, I was going to ask you while you were at the, the good old theater school, I remember you as being a musical theater guy. Am I making that up? Were you a big movie musical theater guy?
Speaker 6: (
54:11)
I, yeah. I loved love to sing. Absolutely. And yeah, and Vanessa was more of the singer, but she and I would do, um, we were in that, uh, Michael Maggio, Keith redeem musical, the perpetual patient then Clemente was the lead in that, um, was that your final year? Maybe that was, yeah, it was after you got,
Speaker 2: (
54:34)
But I was there. I remember. Yeah. Okay. So perpetual paste, that was a musical. Did you say Michael Maggio wrote it?
Speaker 6: (
54:41)
Uh, Keith redeem wrote it. It was an adaptation of the imaginary invalid. So it was an adaptation of whole year made into a musical that, um, uh, um, Oh my gosh, Mike [inaudible], um, Mark Elliott Elliott wrote the music for Mark Elliot with the music for Keith redeem, did the script and the lyrics and Maggio directed. So Keith came to, uh, some of our rehearsals, um, because Keith and Michael had a relationship. So I got a lot of scripts autographed that day.
Speaker 2: (
55:16)
How cool. So what are, what are some other roles that you loved or didn't
Speaker 6: (
55:24)
Right, right. Um, well, working with Michael, I think were the two roles that really helped me understand myself as a character actor, I, where I did a missile Alliance, which Eric spoke about. Um, and I provided you one of the pictures of me, all the pictures of me have a mustache attached to them seem to be my go-to, but yeah, being, uh, being in an Ms Alliance and playing a character role in that with a kind of a goofy dialect and silly physicality and extreme stakes and working with like Tim Gregory and, uh, you know, Louise Rosette and Eric and all these Ellen and all these great people. Like I was, I was a junior and it was my, it was the fall of my junior year and I was on the main stage. And I remember that being like, that was pretty prestigious. That was pretty cool. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll probably forget that show so that one, and I would say perpetual patient were both really big for me in regards to embracing my character actor stuff.
Speaker 2: (
56:32)
Anything, anything that you weren't so pleased about?
Speaker 6: (
56:37)
Um, gosh, I mean, going, even going back to intros, I tried to, you know, you try to make the most out of everything, even when I had like, um, a, like a walk-on role in something you try to, you ever hear the story about, um, Betsy Hamilton said the story about Don Elko and she saw him on stage once he was the third speared carrier to the left. And she, that he was so memorable in that role with no minds. And I remember her saying this, like, you can make anything out of, you know, if you working with the director. So I always try to make something out of the roles I was in. I remember Jenkins saying to me, after we did bombing Gilliad as an intro, and he had Joseph Cora and I flipped roles halfway through the play where Joe played the lead, the first half of the play. And then I played a double lead, like seconds before he got shot. And like, it was so hard to get into that role and to like, try and feel like I'm that character in the moment that I know I'm about to die. And like, that was really hard. And John apologized for that, but that was, that's the only regret.
Speaker 2: (
57:46)
Did he do that? Because it made sense for the player. He was just trying to get people more staged.
Speaker 6: (
57:52)
Yeah. I think that's the, you know, the sort of unspoken rule of the intros. It's like, you want to give everyone some kind of equal some sort of equal, but I was happy playing the role of the coffee shop owner in the first half in the first act. I would've stuck with that. That was fine with me.
Speaker 2: (
58:12)
What about, did you have, uh, or do you have, now I know you are very interested in movement, but like other tendencies then, or now writing, um, I guess directing, you've done some of w are there other areas of the craft that maybe you wish you could have explored more than?
Speaker 6: (
58:34)
Yeah. So voiceover is something that I, I was interested in since I was an adolescent, since I was young. I really love voiceover. Do you remember when I was in college and we had a voiceover instructor, she was like a friend of Susan leaves who came in for a quarter. She said to me, uh, the age of radio is over. You don't really have a place in this business. She was, she was all about the kind of a raspy, vocal fry, female voice that was popular at the time. So she was really promoting those female voices and was basically like, you need to take a back seat. I'm sorry. The age of radio is over. You're not going to have a place in this business. And I took seriously because I was 19. I was like, Oh. And so since then, I, I have experienced the, uh, repercussions of that, even though I'm looking intellectually aware of it, like trying to get into the voiceover business, I'm hobbled. Like I can't push through the difficult first months of trying to establish something. I can't get through that point. So I, I just kinda gave up on that. I liked the sound of my voice.
Speaker 2: (
59:52)
Oh, I'm so surprised. You're not a voiceover actor that I, in fact, back in my mind, I think I assumed that you did voiceover, but wait, what are you, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. You're saying that you, when you try to establish yourself, you find yourself like undoing it or, or, or you feel that the hurdles are insurmountable.
Speaker 6: (
01:00:13)
Well, I, I w whenever I've tried to get started, I feel like there's, and this is the thing with being a white guy, I think is like, there's way too many of me. I don't think that I have that much uniqueness to offer, to upset the business and become something that I, you know, to add something to the community. So at this point, I feel like now at first I was hobbled with the age of radio was over. And now I feel like I'm feeling a little like, well, I guess I don't really have anything new to bring to voiceover. I would just be really impersonating the guys that came before me. Um, so maybe that's believing some of what was told to me when I was an adolescent a little bit, and also kind of reckoning with, you know, just where we're at as a society right now. And as a culture right now, maybe it's a mix of both, but it's really nice.
Speaker 2: (
01:01:07)
So the age of radio has never been over. Right. Cause then, right.
Speaker 2: (
01:01:16)
It's also not true. So, so what I, what, what sticks out to me is that when we're 19 and these people in power say things like that, the repercussions hear me. Now, if you are an instructor of some kind, they ripple out until you are 45 years old, and you are still dealing with them. Now, I'm not saying they did it on purpose. Maybe some people did, but it's harmful. And so I think, I think it's. And I also think that I want you to meet my voiceover agent. And I also think that, that I, um, I just didn't shocked at what we say. And Gina and I talk about this because Gina has kids. I don't, but just that what we say matters to people and you have kids, and what we say matters to people, um, more than we could ever know, it drives me insane when I hear stuff like that. Um, because I've heard it too stuff, and it's not fair. And we were 19 and you have a fantastic voice and you're kind, that's the other thing it's like, you can hear the kindness in your voice, and I'm so serious, and we need that in this industry. So that's all I'll say on that. Get off my box. But man,
Speaker 6: (
01:02:28)
Thanks for saying that. But I want to say something too, about what you were saying with the messages. There was something that I'll say his name. You can edit it out later, said to me in his office one day and I'm surprised, I bet there's a lot of stories.
Speaker 2: (
01:02:42)
Oh yes. We believe his name on the regular.
Speaker 6: (
01:02:47)
So he had me in his office. Uh, I think it was like sophomore year, like second year and he's, and I was sitting in his office and he said, all right, get up. Mike stood up. And he said, turn around. I turned around in a circle and said, no, turn your back to me. I turned my back to him. He was still sitting down and I was standing and he slapped me on the, both cheeks. He said, this is getting too big, sit down. And I sat down. He said, if you're going to get anywhere, you have to lose some weight. Your is getting too big.
Speaker 2: (
01:03:24)
Oh my God, I'm sorry. That happened to you.
Speaker 6: (
01:03:32)
Well, you know what I feel like at that time, and I've talked about this story a lot, but after listening to your show, I've been thinking about it more. Like, I feel like what he was trying to do. I think what he was trying to do, if I assume the best is he thought that that was the form that I needed to fit in order to be successful. You know? Like, and I, and when I was looking at my headshot and said, that's your, uh, can I come move your casting couch for your headshot? I was like, yeah, awesome. This is cool. I'm going to be the sexy young guy. Right. Um, but that wasn't me. And I didn't know that that wasn't me. I wanted it to be me.
Speaker 2: (
01:04:13)
Sure. Of course you did. You want it to be liked and loved and picked and worked and feel
Speaker 6: (
01:04:17)
And sexy and cool and stuff, you know? So I want it to fit those molds. I want it to lose the weight. I want it to be the casting couch guy. I wanted to be, you know, I wore a leather jacket with the collar, pop to my hair, you know, the sideburns and the Urim and stuff. And I did the whole thing. Um, and I went to LA and I went to meetings, but my personality isn't that. So I didn't follow through on the expectation.
Speaker 2: (
01:04:45)
You didn't know who you were because people were helping you to say, this is who you should be. And it really, probably somewhere inside you were like, no, no, I can't just like, if you're not. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. How can you show up at 21 or 22 at meetings with adult people that are trying to, that want you to sell certain things? And in your core, something about your being is like, this isn't, this isn't me. It's going to not work out.
Speaker 6: (
01:05:12)
I spent money on a really slim fitting, nice suit, you know, good sunglasses walked into the meeting trying to feel like, yeah, I'm this, I'm the sexy guy. That's gonna solve all your Hollywood PR problems. But I couldn't hold a conversation because I didn't have the confidence, you know, despite the cost,
Speaker 2: (
01:05:30)
I wouldn't even know why, how could you have confidence when people are telling you you're too fat, you need to do this and you're, or, or you're you're yes. You're headed in the right.
Speaker 6: (
01:05:39)
Right.
Speaker 2: (
01:05:40)
You guys, I just feel so sick to my stomach about that story. And I, I, part of what makes it, so, um, sickening is that, I mean, he touched it, but he also, he made you turn around something about that is like, it just really is hitting me right in the center of my chest, because how dare you? How dare you.
Speaker 6: (
01:06:03)
It was so vulnerable. You know, it was a really vulnerable moment. And I feel like we, we put ourselves in vulnerability with our, with our teachers in that, in that Mel you right in the conservatory program, um, whatever, the modality of art that you're studying, you're in a really vulnerable place for experiments. And you're putting stuff out there that represents you.
Speaker 2: (
01:06:26)
That's right. And, and, and so like for anybody in college, probably the experiences, uh, that child has had pretty much the same set of people, their whole life, reflecting back to them who they are. And then you don't know this, but part of why you go to college is to have other people reflect back to you who you are, so that you can figure it out and decide which one, and which is why we all do that. So many. And in high school too, like trying on personalities and trying to see what's going to fit. And then in theater, it's like, you're trying to do that. You are receiving messages from people about how you're perceived, but then you're also being asked to be open, to be anything new. It's just so tricky and dangerous. And, and, and there are so many billions of ways that, that self-image can be, uh, splintered, right? Some of them might be good, but a lot of them are really not
Speaker 6: (
01:07:29)
Well in the highest value that we bring into the classroom is our vulnerability, right. Being, being as open and open, open, open, open, open, and neutral as possible, right. Ego lifts is try to be as equal as possible. So we're so receptive
Speaker 2: (
01:07:45)
Were so receptive and were so fragile. You know, people are fragile. We're also fragile. It's like, I just, I I'm just always shocked at how quickly someone will, someone can, um, crumple a child. [inaudible] the episode that era's today is the one with Erica who mentioned you she's she's actually, when, when we interviewed her, she said, have you talked to Paul? Yeah. And also she's the reason that week. I think I called your email. You sorry, later that day. Um, but Oh my God, I just lost my train of thought something Erica said maybe about, about the theater school. She said a lot. Oh no. We were talking in today's episode in the first part about, Oh, victim impact statements. That's what it was. We were talking about victim impact statement. Ooh, we should w maybe we can't do it in real life, but we could write a play where students gave their victim impact statements to their teachers.
Speaker 2: (
01:08:47)
Right? Like you had the opportunity kind of like in defending your life, you have this long, it's not really like fighting in life, but you have, you get this kind of council of teachers. And then everybody who was their student, if a toxic teachers can come in and say, this is what you did, probably you didn't mean to probably no teacher would say what I really wanted Paul to do was, uh, never consider voiceover, even though that's what he totally wanted to do. She wouldn't have said, she thought she was doing, you're such a favor.
Speaker 6: (
01:09:18)
Right, right. You'll waste your time.
Speaker 2: (
01:09:21)
That's what it is. They think they're saving you from the humiliation that then they're reflecting on the moment that they're second. They think they're saving you. And really they're, they're slowly killing you. I mean, like it's real in a way it's real.
Speaker 6: (
01:09:36)
Hmm. This feels like a non-sequitur, but I want to follow it. So, Gina, I know that you directed under milkweed. Uh, I also directed under milk. Um, we, we rehearsed at the theater building in the courtyard and so really had a strong connection to production of that play in school so much so that I really wanted to recreate that experience for another audience. Was that your experience too? Yes. Yeah. So he can't all be the devil because that play was so beautiful that it touched me. I mean, it moved me for the rest of my life, you know, and that came from him and his heart. So there was something about like, I really trusted him because he was so earnest and passionate about the capital T truth. So I fed, I thought that I totally bought into that. And I believe that he believed it.
Speaker 2: (
01:10:35)
Dude, if we could interview him, he would probably have stories that would, you know, make your hair stand on, end about what people said to him or what people did to him. I mean, that's what we find. Right. And then his teacher would say, they literally beat me on the side of the head when I did something wrong. It's just this thing. It's just like what the, the traumatization is almost like an absolute value. Hopefully, hopefully not forever. Um, just the only thing that changes is the way that it's inflicted. And I think what happens through generations, you think, well, if I'm not traumatizing somebody, the way I was traumatized and I'm doing good already, right? Like I'm not hitting them. I'm not literally spitting on them. I'm just telling them that they're pieces of. That's, that's fine. Right. Right. And I think that, that comes that's, it's my mom used to say, well, at least I don't beat you like my parents. And I thought, well, that's where we're coming from here. Well, no wonder this is what I work in with. So it's like, we're working with damaged people who are, who are ha probably have really good hearts, but made some awful awful choices when they open their mouth. Sometimes
Speaker 6: (
01:11:42)
I remember, uh, Don Elko stepping into a scene with, um, Chris [inaudible] right
Speaker 2: (
01:11:52)
In LA he's a fashion designer or he was
Speaker 6: (
01:11:55)
Okay. He is, he is so close to him for a short time. I remember at [inaudible] class, uh, Elko stepped into a scene with Chris where he was, he put, like he stepped in, tagged an actor out to take over the role. And in playing the role in the scene, he whacked toe for up side of the head, really hard was a scene from, um, uh, Eugene on all the, uh, the act older actor, dad and his six son. Um, so he just smacks his son upside the head and Tofor like, totally broke. Character was like, Hey, like covered his head. Like, look back, is wrong with you right now. And, and Don seemed to like bristle a little bit and say like, you know, you need, this is the place you need to get to in this scene, you need to get to, like, he was really crying. It passionate, cared about this actor, right. Stepped into push the actor to this point because he felt like that was the right thing to do, but it was abusive.
Speaker 2: (
01:12:56)
Right. And also it's abusive. And ages strikes me as these people were like our parents then. So like, they were, there was like such a parent thing. And it was like parents, but they weren't our parents and parents shouldn't be doing that anyway. But I'm just saying like, they were our teachers, but I think you're right. Like there must've been a different time or something because that wouldn't happen. Now you'd go right to jail. Right. When you think about those people as with your adult eyes, you, you, you can see them so much differently. You can see their trauma, their, the way that they, and, and, you know, I think now this is another thing that's different. But I think for when we were there, it was definitely a lot of people who were very frustrated, you know, actors really wanted nothing more. See, okay.
Speaker 2: (
01:13:46)
So I'm just going to do a little thought experiment and try to put myself in their shoes. So we'll actually, it does. I don't have to think that hard. I actually had this experience. Um, so I want nothing more than to be an actor, how I want to be, how I can see myself being is not matching up with how I'm actually being. And certainly not with how people are perceiving me. I don't want to a D a J job. That's not related to this. So I choose to teach. And then I watched talented people who I think are definitely going to get somewhere, not, you know, not getting it in some way. And then I want to hit them on the head. I mean, I, I don't want to hit anybody on the head, but I'm just, I'm trying to like empathize with, with the frustration Frustration. Wow. Okay. Wow. We've covered a lot. Um, can you talk a little bit, cause I'm a little bit obsessed since I live in LA now of what the showcase experience did you feel? We talked a little bit about how you, so you got these meetings, so you, you, you, you dialed yourself up. Do you remember what model all you did for the showcase? Okay.
Speaker 6: (
01:15:01)
Yeah. I don't remember what it was. It was a weird monologue. So the monologue was Satan. So I was saying, and I was talking about, um, uh, how to capture souls and how delightful it was to trick people into giving me the salts. So, and I wore, and I dress contemporary with my leather jacket and I mean, the leather jacket was like a Jean investment at the time. It was part of the persona. So I did this whole, like I'm of the cool devil. I'm going to get your soul. And I got to use my voice and be kind of creepy and, you know, [inaudible], um, yeah, that's the word I'm looking for. And, um, and so that was a blast and I felt like pretty cool. And so, yeah, I got a couple of meetings and not everyone did. And, uh, you know, you take a cab out to 100 millennium way or whatever, like the, this cluster of tall buildings in the middle of nowhere and yeah.
Speaker 6: (
01:16:02)
Century city, right. Something like that. And I think I went to like three meetings, but each time, and I, and I had the one suit and the one dress shirt. And the one time though, like the whole outfit thing was starting, like by the end of the meetings was starting to feel uncomfortable and not as pressed, you know, really crumpled. And so was I a little crumpled, you know, and like, feeling like I'm not selling this, you know, each meeting would end with so well, when you decide to move to LA, because I wasn't ready to make that commitment.
Speaker 2: (
01:16:35)
Right. Of course, man. I just thought what?
Speaker 6: (
01:16:39)
So I left with a lot of business cards,
Speaker 2: (
01:16:41)
By the way, that's everybody who we've talked to, who's had a meeting, that's what they said. The person said, well, are you going to move to LA? Uh, I don't know that we've found anybody who, who said, well, well, yeah, yeah. I am going to move to LA right now because also the I'm just trying to think, like what's even the, what was even the, um, fought about what would happen because you can't move to LA because an agent likes you. That doesn't mean you have a job. That just means they get 10% of whatever that you can get. So what was the thinking behind? It was a half, you know what, half, it was a half baked idea going to New York. Yeah. You could, uh, find out like whether or not people, you know, wanted you to, cause I think in New York it wasn't, or maybe it was agents in New York. I had this feeling like in New York it was more theater companies would come and, and then maybe even say that they wanted to cast you in something, but in LA it was never going to be that it was only going to be,
Speaker 6: (
01:17:41)
We either didn't go to New York or I blocked them.
Speaker 2: (
01:17:44)
No, no, no, we didn't. They, they that's what I'm saying is they shifted instead of going to New York to go to LA, but I'm not certain necessarily what the thinking about. It was, maybe it was literally just here's LA here. You know, here's like a very small glimpse of what the life is like here.
Speaker 6: (
01:18:02)
It's part of the attraction, right? Like, I mean, I'm going to go to the theater school, but I actually, I'm going to be a movie.
Speaker 2: (
01:18:07)
Right. Right. And then we talk a lot about on the podcast about the schism between being a theater actor and a theater artist, and then all of a sudden being expected to be famous as an ant on screens, when you have no idea how to do that, it's really quite something it's like, yeah.
Speaker 6: (
01:18:24)
And the, uh, stinger that you have on these episodes are we saying like cracks me up every time because it's, so it's got that kind of sardonic sort of like, I don't even believe it. I'm saying
Speaker 2: (
01:18:37)
Right. It's sort of like, wait, I think it did feel like the goal was we learned all these techniques for acting and movement and voice and how to take care of ourselves. And then it was like, kind of felt like, well, forget all that. You're really, your job is to be skinny and pretty and be famous. And so, which is a very hard thing to do. And so it's like, that's gives him his drives me bonkers. I'm like, you know, and I think it's gotten better and maybe your wife knows and you know that. And, and I, I actually teach BFA fours online. Um, and I think I'm trying to like, sort of help the schism, but it's like, when we went there, it felt like it was a million miles wide that, that crater in the ground between I'm a theater actor, but really I'm just supposed to be on friends. You know what I mean? Like what,
Speaker 6: (
01:19:25)
Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2: (
01:19:28)
It's harder. People seem to other people I've said this on here before, but other people seem to have been totally prepared for that. Totally. I was like, what, what, what, what did you say? And also other people seem to know before we got there and I didn't know that you could get cut. Um, and other people seem to know that you should be trying early on to angle and, and kind of like figure out, you know what, anyway, I mean, it's, it's, it's almost beating a dead horse at this point. We didn't know what we didn't know and we're learning,
Speaker 6: (
01:20:03)
Right? No, we started with, I think my class started with 80 students. If I remember correctly, we started by our class was, uh, an enrollment push. And I think 14 of us graduated. So some time between freshman year and senior year, uh, and, uh, John Bridges said very, um, smartly. I think, you know, some people leave, not because they're cut, but because they can't stick around and we certainly experienced some of that. But man, we've just, we've spent all those four years trying to please everybody and try to figure out our ourselves while demeanor.
Speaker 2: (
01:20:37)
It doesn't work. It doesn't, here's the thing. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a fool's paradise. It's not real. And it's so crazy and I'm 45 and now I'm going, Oh, this was a different kind of confidence game this whole time. This was an inside job. They didn't, I didn't understand that. And I think it's, it's amazing the things we that I thought I wanted or that they thought other people wanted from me whenever I'm just myself and that real vulnerable, the true sort of my true champions want that from me and that's enough. And I'm like, what the hell? This is who taught. But again, and we're beating the dead horses now, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. But it's like, we didn't know. We didn't know what we didn't know. And, and we didn't always have the best guides.
Speaker 6: (
01:21:26)
Yeah. It strikes me that, um, that dog, again, it strikes me that, uh, John Jim hostel said in class, right. Um, what do you, what do you want to do? Or what's your dream or where, how do you want it? Do you remember him asking this question? I remember us all being like, uh, I just want to make a living and being an actor like we had, no, there was no model for us to direct ourselves. We didn't have the people that came to visit us like angry F Murray Abraham, or, or, or, uh, rip torn or, you know, people coming to yell at us about being professionals.
Speaker 2: (
01:22:02)
Were you in the room by the way, with the FMRI? Were you there when?
Speaker 6: (
01:22:05)
Totally, totally. I remember that very distinctly. And, and I remember Rick Torin yelling at some girl about who was coughing, put a piece of ginger root in your cheek and shut up or something like that because she was coughing while he was talking, you know, like have these professionals come in and yell at us about, about being professionals, but that doesn't give us a clear vision of what's possible for us. I've had a lovely 20 year career directing and acting in plays in Chicago. I didn't make a dime off of doing it or, you know, very little. Um, but I made some great work and I had some great experiences and I'm not done. I'm going to go back to it eventually. And now I'm just taking a little step back.
Speaker 2: (
01:22:46)
And I now mentioned him that thing about rip torn. And I was remembering, uh, Brian, Denny browse, were you there when Brandon and he came, he was our celebrity. And I don't, I don't remember much about it. He was so angry. I met him so angry. He was so angry. And, and what I'm realizing now is it was just the, it was the thing, as
Speaker 1: (
01:23:06)
It was maybe with our professors only these were working actors. It's, it's just, it's this, it's this very bizarre inclination to see somebody to see a younger version of yourself, everyone of just punished, like you see the younger version of yourself. You want to just Shroyer them. You want to like, it's so weird. It's so crazy because we're trying to emulate those who came before us. Even if it's just subconscious, we're like, well, I got to give some tough love because the tough love is what got me. Meanwhile, never stopping to say, wait, was it the tough love?
Speaker 1: (
01:23:43)
I'm the drunk that can't get it together. Maybe it wasn't a tough, actual love. That that is a good, that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you for the actual love and thank you so much for doing this. You're thriving. You serve thrive. Great word. Amen. T-shirt if you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Janet [inaudible]. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.