WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.478 --> 00:00:04.828 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah. 00:00:04.828 --> 00:00:06.228 So how is new job life? 00:00:06.714 --> 00:00:08.984 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I forgot how many meetings you're in DevRel. 00:00:09.054 --> 00:00:11.064 There's just so many meetings. 00:00:11.524 --> 00:00:11.589 yeah. 00:00:12.169 --> 00:00:16.939 And especially when spinning up at a big company, as part of my onboarding 00:00:16.949 --> 00:00:21.519 doc, there was a list of like 30 names go have one on ones with these 30 00:00:21.539 --> 00:00:23.519 different people from different teams. 00:00:23.549 --> 00:00:27.909 And for some of them, it had a sub bullet that was like, and when you're in the 00:00:27.909 --> 00:00:32.379 meeting with them, ask them for more people to talk to about X, Y, and Z. 00:00:32.389 --> 00:00:36.779 And so then you end up really like talking to 50 or 60 people 00:00:36.789 --> 00:00:38.649 just in the first several weeks. 00:00:38.669 --> 00:00:44.566 And so between that, and then project management meetings and team meetings 00:00:44.566 --> 00:00:48.556 and all hands meetings and, org meetings. 00:00:48.636 --> 00:00:51.436 At Kraftwerk, there were several days where I had zero meetings. 00:00:51.916 --> 00:00:52.876 yeah, it's been an adjustment. 00:00:52.976 --> 00:00:56.466 What would you guess is like the percentage of time that you're 00:00:56.466 --> 00:00:57.836 in meetings versus not right now? 00:00:58.621 --> 00:01:01.241 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah, as soon as you said that, it's that 00:01:01.241 --> 00:01:05.671 balance of being in the meetings about the work versus doing the work. 00:01:06.041 --> 00:01:08.811 And at some point the work has to get done. 00:01:09.631 --> 00:01:12.691 or I guess a lot of talking about doing the work instead of doing the work. 00:01:13.221 --> 00:01:16.021 I'm pretty good about protecting my calendar. 00:01:17.546 --> 00:01:22.016 Would probably say 40 50 percent of my time is in meetings, and 00:01:22.016 --> 00:01:24.336 that's probably too much still. 00:01:24.833 --> 00:01:26.929 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: That's better than what I'm at 00:01:26.929 --> 00:01:27.359 right now. 00:01:27.419 --> 00:01:27.839 So 00:01:28.679 --> 00:01:30.289 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: do you guys use Google Calendar? 00:01:31.869 --> 00:01:34.649 Have you seen the little stats thing that tells you, like, how 00:01:34.649 --> 00:01:35.809 much time you're in meetings? 00:01:36.169 --> 00:01:36.539 There's 00:01:37.399 --> 00:01:40.229 If you look on the left hand side, there's like time insights. 00:01:40.419 --> 00:01:44.819 So actually I can just tell you right now, it's actually probably less than 40. 00:01:44.919 --> 00:01:46.569 So I average 15. 00:01:46.759 --> 00:01:50.864 7 hours of meetings a week, is what this is telling me. 00:01:51.774 --> 00:01:52.314 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Okay. 00:01:52.804 --> 00:01:55.634 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: And what I love is it's like one on ones, three and a 00:01:55.634 --> 00:01:58.734 half hours, three plus guests, ten hours. 00:01:59.494 --> 00:02:03.904 And then, it's, according to this, it's saying, Like 30 hours that I'm out. 00:02:03.904 --> 00:02:07.689 So I guess it's only 25 percent of my time is in meetings. 00:02:08.449 --> 00:02:09.089 That's pretty good. 00:02:09.904 --> 00:02:10.414 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Wow. 00:02:10.464 --> 00:02:10.794 Okay. 00:02:10.794 --> 00:02:15.964 So now that I'm looking at this, I am way overestimating. 00:02:16.294 --> 00:02:19.886 This says I'm only in meetings 10 hours a week. 00:02:21.301 --> 00:02:23.571 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: think that it's, do you think it's correct? 00:02:25.256 --> 00:02:27.746 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I gotta go count it up because that definitely 00:02:28.141 --> 00:02:28.731 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah. 00:02:29.241 --> 00:02:31.471 I like this because I actually haven't dug into this. 00:02:31.541 --> 00:02:33.741 It shows recurring versus one time. 00:02:33.751 --> 00:02:36.851 And then I think that will help me to identify is there something 00:02:36.851 --> 00:02:37.891 in here I can get rid of? 00:02:38.561 --> 00:02:40.931 And then I like this, like my one on ones. 00:02:41.101 --> 00:02:45.081 I think are all necessary and I want those and then you can 00:02:45.081 --> 00:02:46.451 also track your focus time. 00:02:46.451 --> 00:02:50.501 So I think you have to put on your calendar what focus time is and then it'll 00:02:50.501 --> 00:02:55.231 calculate that as well, which will be nice because I do blocks, which I wondering 00:02:55.231 --> 00:02:59.201 if some of my blocks are being counted as meetings because I'll do writing 00:02:59.201 --> 00:03:01.021 time, but it's not set as focus time. 00:03:01.021 --> 00:03:03.886 But I bet that'll Make it even less. 00:03:03.886 --> 00:03:07.966 So I guess I'm not in as many meetings, but we're like ramping up for GDC. 00:03:07.966 --> 00:03:14.066 So there's a lot of meetings around a lot of work and the thing is GDC is going 00:03:14.066 --> 00:03:18.059 to happen at a set point in time and the work has to be done So i'm going to start 00:03:18.089 --> 00:03:21.159 being a little ruthless about do the meetings about the work need to happen 00:03:21.648 --> 00:03:24.838 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: In prep for GDC, how many kind of like 00:03:24.978 --> 00:03:26.788 different things are you involved in? 00:03:26.848 --> 00:03:30.758 Is it like multiple workshops, multiple talks, expo hall, like 00:03:30.848 --> 00:03:32.698 what's the scope that's expected? 00:03:33.066 --> 00:03:35.246 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: we just decided we were spread too thin and we 00:03:35.246 --> 00:03:40.931 got rid of a talk at an external event So now we're only doing stuff at GDC. 00:03:41.361 --> 00:03:43.391 but yeah, I'm doing a talk at the booth. 00:03:43.391 --> 00:03:48.031 So those kind of, I'm going to give the same talk to like our online audience. 00:03:48.041 --> 00:03:49.681 So I can reuse that. 00:03:49.731 --> 00:03:53.671 but my big push is I need to have content done before GDC, like the 00:03:53.671 --> 00:03:55.961 docs basically for some new stuff. 00:03:55.961 --> 00:03:58.111 So that's what I did last year. 00:03:58.201 --> 00:04:01.391 it's amazing that even though we know when GDC is every year. 00:04:01.911 --> 00:04:05.211 It always feels like this, February is always the crunch because 00:04:05.641 --> 00:04:07.401 things aren't done being built yet. 00:04:07.531 --> 00:04:12.891 all of that happens and then the docs can be done soon ish, but there's meetings 00:04:12.921 --> 00:04:17.631 about them and reviews and some people have different opinions about how they 00:04:17.631 --> 00:04:19.201 should be built and stuff like that, 00:04:19.201 --> 00:04:21.461 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: We have a big company conference end of June. 00:04:22.151 --> 00:04:26.381 And this is going to be the, one of the first times that they have like developer. 00:04:26.791 --> 00:04:28.121 Specific content. 00:04:28.491 --> 00:04:32.701 And so we are just now trying to figure out what does that look like? 00:04:32.701 --> 00:04:33.691 Is it going to be workshops? 00:04:33.691 --> 00:04:34.591 Is it going to be talks? 00:04:34.591 --> 00:04:37.931 Is it going to be like, what's the most value we can add in like the two 00:04:37.931 --> 00:04:39.141 days we're going to have with folks. 00:04:39.751 --> 00:04:43.301 And it's intimidating, like the amount of work that needs to 00:04:43.321 --> 00:04:44.401 get done between now and then. 00:04:44.911 --> 00:04:45.321 And, 00:04:45.351 --> 00:04:46.141 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: How much time do you have? 00:04:46.618 --> 00:04:48.960 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I guess like, four months. 00:04:49.085 --> 00:04:49.465 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Okay. 00:04:50.425 --> 00:04:55.028 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: And maybe two workshops and expert panel and like 00:04:55.028 --> 00:04:57.308 Expo Hall office hours type situation. 00:04:58.488 --> 00:04:58.828 I don't know. 00:04:58.838 --> 00:04:59.338 We'll see. 00:04:59.618 --> 00:05:00.308 We will see. 00:05:00.823 --> 00:05:04.203 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah, more and more, I think of like, how do I 00:05:04.263 --> 00:05:09.863 create something there that then can be reused to so that it's not one and 00:05:09.863 --> 00:05:12.733 done, it can be used in another event. 00:05:12.733 --> 00:05:14.723 So the next event is not as intense. 00:05:14.853 --> 00:05:18.553 I say that in like GDC, everything's being done from scratch again, because 00:05:18.553 --> 00:05:20.303 it's a completely different product too. 00:05:20.863 --> 00:05:22.668 So it's just, It's tricky. 00:05:22.698 --> 00:05:26.108 But, yeah, even some of the workshops that we do online, like they don't end up 00:05:26.108 --> 00:05:28.248 living on YouTube or something afterwards. 00:05:28.248 --> 00:05:31.788 So if you missed the live event, you missed it and we could 00:05:31.838 --> 00:05:33.698 do better at that, I think. 00:05:33.900 --> 00:05:35.330 And 00:05:35.350 --> 00:05:39.880 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: that I was asking for was recordings for The workshops with, 00:05:40.650 --> 00:05:43.460 and it's everything is a brand new muscle. 00:05:43.470 --> 00:05:45.860 It's Oh, we're not sure if we can record it. 00:05:45.870 --> 00:05:48.030 If we can, where's it going to be repurposed. 00:05:48.450 --> 00:05:50.840 We've recorded stuff in the past and it wasn't used. 00:05:50.840 --> 00:05:52.710 So like, how do we set that up? 00:05:52.710 --> 00:05:56.980 And so I'm like, there's so many things. 00:05:57.345 --> 00:06:01.385 That are happening in like the very early seed stages, being like the first 00:06:01.385 --> 00:06:04.145 dev advocate and in many years here. 00:06:04.165 --> 00:06:08.615 And so basically standing up the entire DevRel function while at the same 00:06:08.615 --> 00:06:12.165 time, yeah, trying to prepare for a big event, trying to get content situated, 00:06:12.165 --> 00:06:14.995 but also planting the seeds with the right people and the right teams 00:06:14.995 --> 00:06:18.925 about, Hey, we should set up a YouTube channel and Hey, we should have first 00:06:18.925 --> 00:06:21.185 party SDKs and Hey, we should like. 00:06:21.461 --> 00:06:24.531 Move to this docs platform and Hey, we should do like this X, Y, and Z. 00:06:24.531 --> 00:06:28.891 And it's just, yeah, lots and lots of zero to one things happening right now that are 00:06:29.314 --> 00:06:31.734 exciting and I'm pumped about the work. 00:06:31.884 --> 00:06:34.844 but yeah, definitely a lot to get done in a short amount of time. 00:06:34.984 --> 00:06:37.574 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: It's almost like the how to win friends and 00:06:37.574 --> 00:06:39.134 influence people type stuff, right? 00:06:39.424 --> 00:06:41.504 Cause you can't do all of the things yourself. 00:06:42.184 --> 00:06:44.024 But, you gotta plant the seeds. 00:06:44.064 --> 00:06:44.944 There's a word. 00:06:45.164 --> 00:06:52.514 in community managing called tumbling and tumbling or like having a tumbler is like 00:06:52.514 --> 00:06:57.904 a person who goes around and like tries to get the people who are you're keeping 00:06:57.904 --> 00:07:02.124 the conversation going so you want like the quiet people to speak up you want some 00:07:02.124 --> 00:07:05.794 of the People are too noisy to be like, okay, we hear you, but like you don't 00:07:05.794 --> 00:07:07.704 get to dominate everything all the time. 00:07:08.054 --> 00:07:11.414 It's a little bit about trying to keep the community alive and going. 00:07:11.414 --> 00:07:15.584 And without it, communities tend to fall apart or you get the one really 00:07:15.594 --> 00:07:18.684 loud thing that it's like, everyone's assuming that we're going to do the 00:07:18.684 --> 00:07:20.244 thing that the loud person's doing. 00:07:20.614 --> 00:07:23.674 And then there's a lot of people who have really good ideas, whether 00:07:23.684 --> 00:07:25.234 in the community or in the company. 00:07:25.719 --> 00:07:28.399 And those things may not rise to the top just because 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:30.079 they're not the loudest thing. 00:07:30.559 --> 00:07:33.099 and then when those people don't feel heard, then they leave. 00:07:33.099 --> 00:07:35.799 And that might be again, leaving the community or leaving the company. 00:07:36.059 --> 00:07:38.429 So it is, it's a weird balance. 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:41.659 but it's also Oh, I'm going to roll up my sleeves and go start the channel myself. 00:07:42.054 --> 00:07:46.484 But then it's not sustainable because someone, you need backup, you need, a 00:07:46.484 --> 00:07:48.364 good flow of content and stuff like that. 00:07:48.364 --> 00:07:51.954 And, as we know, doing this podcast, sometimes it's good to take some breaks. 00:07:51.964 --> 00:07:54.354 Sometimes you're like, yeah, we're just not feeling it today. 00:07:56.919 --> 00:07:59.109 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: In a lot of these one on ones is just trying to seek 00:07:59.119 --> 00:08:03.229 out who are those people who are maybe already like itching to make content 00:08:03.239 --> 00:08:07.579 or itching to engage with the community and in certain ways, or maybe they 00:08:07.589 --> 00:08:12.879 have contacts with devs in different kind of like personas or something. 00:08:13.329 --> 00:08:15.089 One of the, one of the really surprising things. 00:08:15.554 --> 00:08:22.664 Joining this company, having only really done dev advocacy at Stripe was that 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:25.170 the flavor of it here is so different. 00:08:25.650 --> 00:08:29.490 The dev is not the decision maker when it comes to buying our software. 00:08:29.940 --> 00:08:35.140 The dev is often like a third party systems integrator, or 00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:37.450 they are like ISV partners. 00:08:37.660 --> 00:08:41.920 Or they are line of business devs or they're like business analysts 00:08:41.920 --> 00:08:43.760 who are using no code tools. 00:08:44.230 --> 00:08:51.670 but they're not like, hardcore tech CEO, CTO that is at, Bay area startup 00:08:51.690 --> 00:08:53.180 that's launching some AI thing. 00:08:53.190 --> 00:08:53.390 Like it 00:08:53.390 --> 00:08:55.090 is very much the opposite of that. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:59.700 It is like dev at a logistics company who's been there 17 years writing. 00:08:59.930 --> 00:09:00.850 net and Yeah. 00:09:00.850 --> 00:09:05.690 So number one, the needs of the audience and the needs of the developers are 00:09:05.700 --> 00:09:10.110 just so different because they're not clamoring for the latest and 00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:12.600 greatest bleeding edge technology. 00:09:13.520 --> 00:09:16.100 There's definitely some that are in that scope, but many others are 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:21.760 at these giant enterprise companies doing, long, long running projects, 00:09:21.760 --> 00:09:23.320 long running implementations. 00:09:23.577 --> 00:09:25.127 I'm also just very much in like the. 00:09:25.507 --> 00:09:28.397 Listening and understanding and trying to get to know the community 00:09:28.507 --> 00:09:29.157 phase too. 00:09:29.187 --> 00:09:30.907 But yeah, it's way different for sure. 00:09:32.042 --> 00:09:33.302 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Is there such a thing? 00:09:33.302 --> 00:09:37.882 I think of Stripe and Postman and all these, are there, even Salesforce, right? 00:09:37.952 --> 00:09:39.332 is pretty enterprise. 00:09:40.232 --> 00:09:46.052 are there, obvious developer champions of Samsara, like in the community, or 00:09:46.052 --> 00:09:50.142 is it that, they're just heads down doing the work in their companies and 00:09:50.152 --> 00:09:54.392 they're using Samsara, but they're not necessarily like out there going to 00:09:54.442 --> 00:09:56.462 Dreamforce or whatever the equivalent is. 00:09:56.462 --> 00:09:59.702 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I think there's like obvious champions internally. 00:10:01.222 --> 00:10:02.652 and we, it's a very different model. 00:10:02.652 --> 00:10:08.042 Like Stripe would never write code for customers necessarily, or do 00:10:08.062 --> 00:10:09.262 implementations for customers. 00:10:09.262 --> 00:10:14.112 We had suggestions for third party experts and contractors and consultants in the 00:10:14.112 --> 00:10:19.812 community, but we do have a pretty heavy Implementation process where we like 00:10:19.822 --> 00:10:21.502 want to have a successful onboarding. 00:10:21.502 --> 00:10:24.242 And so we have teams of people who like work really hard to 00:10:24.242 --> 00:10:25.402 make sure that's successful. 00:10:25.442 --> 00:10:29.982 And so the boundaries and the expectations of the teams are just so different. 00:10:30.252 --> 00:10:30.602 So 00:10:31.502 --> 00:10:34.062 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: just think like some, I know our devs identify 00:10:34.062 --> 00:10:38.532 as discord devs, And you have Shopify devs and Salesforce developers. 00:10:39.382 --> 00:10:42.482 And I guess that's the hope and the dream where it's the Kleenex thing, 00:10:42.482 --> 00:10:45.372 where your name becomes synonymous with the thing you're doing. 00:10:45.982 --> 00:10:46.682 interesting. 00:10:46.727 --> 00:10:47.517 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: think we'll get there. 00:10:47.537 --> 00:10:48.517 I think we'll get there. 00:10:48.787 --> 00:10:51.977 We have a long ways to go, but I think we can make it happen. 00:10:52.037 --> 00:10:55.764 There's so many cool products, that you can build on top of the 00:10:55.764 --> 00:11:02.009 platform and we're releasing more and more that are really making it 00:11:02.009 --> 00:11:03.829 possible to build some really cool. 00:11:04.004 --> 00:11:06.964 Companies on top of, there's this thing called the AT 11, which 00:11:06.964 --> 00:11:09.874 is a, industrial grade air tag. 00:11:10.464 --> 00:11:14.914 And it basically lets you get like GPS locations off of 00:11:14.914 --> 00:11:16.514 this air tag through an API. 00:11:17.004 --> 00:11:21.074 And the physical device is rock solid. 00:11:21.074 --> 00:11:21.714 Like you can. 00:11:21.949 --> 00:11:25.499 Hit this thing with a golf club, and, you can bolt it on equipment 00:11:25.549 --> 00:11:28.869 and so I'm just super pumped for all the different interesting use cases 00:11:28.869 --> 00:11:30.789 that people will build with that. 00:11:30.890 --> 00:11:32.600 As we expand to more. 00:11:33.550 --> 00:11:38.510 Physical operations and different tools and different devices that support 00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:39.960 different types of physical operations. 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.830 I think there's a lot of cool stuff that companies can be 00:11:42.830 --> 00:11:44.440 born on top of the platform, 00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:47.270 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: yeah, a certain vintage of winery that puts 00:11:47.270 --> 00:11:49.160 these on their barrels or, whatever. 00:11:49.935 --> 00:11:50.165 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yes, 00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:53.210 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: from, from grape all the way to the bottle. 00:11:53.845 --> 00:11:54.265 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah. 00:11:54.295 --> 00:11:57.625 Or even cannabis track, you have to go like seed to sale or whatever 00:11:57.625 --> 00:11:58.815 it's called or whatever. 00:11:58.815 --> 00:12:00.055 They have some sort of tracking thing. 00:12:00.105 --> 00:12:03.955 that's an example, use case that comes to mind, but also even just craftwork, right? 00:12:03.995 --> 00:12:07.795 Like we, One of the things that we had a lot of trouble with was just 00:12:07.835 --> 00:12:12.745 understanding, like who has the 24 foot ladder or like, where is the vacuum 00:12:12.745 --> 00:12:18.735 Festool, ceiling sucker machine thing or whatever, or like, where's that 10, 00:12:18.736 --> 00:12:20.465 000 sprayer that we use for cabinetry. 00:12:20.690 --> 00:12:23.200 And so being able to just bolt one of these on there and know like 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:28.630 at all times where your expensive tools are, it's pretty, pretty cool. 00:12:28.885 --> 00:12:29.505 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Interesting. 00:12:29.927 --> 00:12:32.027 the flavors of Deverell thing back to that. 00:12:32.137 --> 00:12:37.607 I feel that a lot because it's interesting looking from the outside in. 00:12:37.827 --> 00:12:40.727 I think a lot of people think it looks the same, but I've been doing a lot of 00:12:40.737 --> 00:12:45.467 interviews and stuff too as we've been hiring new dev advocates and it's very 00:12:45.467 --> 00:12:48.167 interesting to see because we'd known it's different if you're under marketing 00:12:48.167 --> 00:12:52.167 and it's different if you're under sales, different if you're under engineering. 00:12:53.337 --> 00:12:54.517 What are the goals of the company? 00:12:54.527 --> 00:12:58.277 Are we trying to convert like through solutions engineering, which now 00:12:58.277 --> 00:13:01.127 you're teaming up with sales and solutions engineers to build something. 00:13:01.127 --> 00:13:02.507 They're probably using your docs. 00:13:02.927 --> 00:13:06.777 Are you self serve platform for like developers? 00:13:06.777 --> 00:13:09.797 And we've seen how some of those have gone from like good to bad. 00:13:09.797 --> 00:13:13.497 Twitter is a good example of, I don't know, like 2015 is when they 00:13:13.547 --> 00:13:16.997 shot themselves in the foot or they just deleted everyone's API keys. 00:13:16.997 --> 00:13:18.327 And we're like, yeah, no more API. 00:13:18.337 --> 00:13:21.357 And We all know where Twitter is now, but, but that was such a good 00:13:21.357 --> 00:13:24.037 little developer community where people were like encouraged to build 00:13:24.037 --> 00:13:26.937 their own Twitter clients and tweet bots and all these little things, 00:13:26.947 --> 00:13:28.557 Twitter ific that came out back then. 00:13:28.587 --> 00:13:32.437 It felt like the golden age of like developer friendly tools. 00:13:32.437 --> 00:13:36.277 And Stripe was part of that in the early days, SendGrid, Twilio, 00:13:36.287 --> 00:13:37.587 all those types of companies. 00:13:37.607 --> 00:13:41.367 And, I think like companies that are a little bit bigger enterprise y, they look 00:13:41.367 --> 00:13:42.977 at those and they're like, we want that. 00:13:44.177 --> 00:13:46.407 They've all been doing it for 15 years. 00:13:46.817 --> 00:13:48.607 you do have a lot to stand up. 00:13:48.657 --> 00:13:51.237 but, like we said earlier, you can't do all of it yourself. 00:13:51.237 --> 00:13:54.897 And, you want to jump ahead, but you got to lay brick by brick 00:13:54.927 --> 00:13:56.967 and get the foundation going. 00:13:57.962 --> 00:13:58.432 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Totally. 00:13:58.637 --> 00:14:00.527 Wanted to ask you about SDKs. 00:14:00.627 --> 00:14:05.137 We have an open API spec, and it is cobbled together from two different 00:14:05.287 --> 00:14:08.037 internal API builders that use go. 00:14:09.037 --> 00:14:12.587 and then we like use some command line thing to upgrade it from 00:14:12.587 --> 00:14:15.207 like open API, B2 to open API, B3. 00:14:15.207 --> 00:14:16.987 There's two things that I really want to happen. 00:14:16.987 --> 00:14:18.907 Like one is to have first party SDKs 00:14:19.037 --> 00:14:21.437 and two is to have really solid docs. 00:14:21.917 --> 00:14:27.377 we are on readme and I tried upgrading to the readme refactored, 00:14:27.377 --> 00:14:28.637 like the new like version of it. 00:14:28.637 --> 00:14:29.557 Cause I want to use get. 00:14:29.807 --> 00:14:32.957 For authoring and it just, it fell apart. 00:14:32.977 --> 00:14:35.837 A bunch of things fell over and broke and I had to go on support and beg 00:14:35.837 --> 00:14:37.827 them to revert my upgrade request. 00:14:38.187 --> 00:14:44.177 So curious to hear your advice and like feedback about docs and, SDK generation. 00:14:45.282 --> 00:14:45.962 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah. 00:14:46.262 --> 00:14:47.912 that's a whole episode. 00:14:48.012 --> 00:14:49.892 Um, yeah. 00:14:49.912 --> 00:14:51.742 I think that starting with the spec is great. 00:14:51.792 --> 00:14:57.322 I think, I would not be surprised if, does README have a SDK Gen offering yet? 00:14:58.142 --> 00:14:58.612 Not yet. 00:14:59.072 --> 00:15:02.882 I would not be surprised if they do eventually, so if you can figure out 00:15:02.882 --> 00:15:09.657 what went wrong with the new system, it's probably also tied to, you Like, if you 00:15:09.657 --> 00:15:14.267 try to use your spec in some of the tools out there, it'll fail for a few reasons if 00:15:14.267 --> 00:15:19.407 you're like not quite following the spec, or the tool's interpretation of the spec. 00:15:19.687 --> 00:15:23.267 So there's a really cool, generator where you can do your own SDKs. 00:15:23.577 --> 00:15:29.357 And they are like as bare bones as you can In our ecosystem, most of 00:15:29.357 --> 00:15:33.247 our stuff is, like, all of our SDKs are mostly built by the community. 00:15:33.647 --> 00:15:37.607 And we want to eventually release one, but, we don't yet. 00:15:37.727 --> 00:15:40.577 And it's do we do a, do we do a thin one? 00:15:40.587 --> 00:15:45.517 Do we do, because we don't, want to do the full batteries included, like all these 00:15:45.517 --> 00:15:50.197 like builders and like super powered, features we want to be able to offer. 00:15:50.247 --> 00:15:52.767 right now, the way that we see the spec is like, if it's in the spec, 00:15:52.767 --> 00:15:55.297 then we should also document it and you should also support it. 00:15:55.907 --> 00:15:59.207 And that's like more of that's just the law of the API right now. 00:15:59.617 --> 00:16:01.957 But I've fed it into some of the generating tools. 00:16:01.957 --> 00:16:04.727 And I've created a CLI, it's not Great. 00:16:04.737 --> 00:16:08.767 Cause like our spec is missing descriptions and like field 00:16:08.767 --> 00:16:12.327 descriptions as well as just like end point descriptions. 00:16:12.767 --> 00:16:15.887 we played with some tools like read doc Lee and some of these other ones 00:16:15.887 --> 00:16:17.617 where you can inject stuff and upgrade. 00:16:17.617 --> 00:16:21.977 Like you said, like we generate our spec from the API and then I have marked down 00:16:21.977 --> 00:16:23.517 files for all the descriptions and it. 00:16:23.967 --> 00:16:26.837 Merges those all together, and then now I have a super spec. 00:16:27.307 --> 00:16:31.907 there's a tool I'll find and share that is like a spec validator from Zooplo. 00:16:32.267 --> 00:16:35.857 That's really good, because then it'll point out like, like a Google Lighthouse 00:16:36.107 --> 00:16:39.747 of this is how good or bad your spec is, and so you can identify those things. 00:16:39.997 --> 00:16:43.747 The closer you get to being like all green on stuff will help with. 00:16:45.042 --> 00:16:46.512 There's also a hundred now. 00:16:46.532 --> 00:16:47.332 It feels like a hundred. 00:16:47.602 --> 00:16:50.592 There's Fern, there's Speakeasy, there's Stainless, there's all 00:16:50.592 --> 00:16:51.722 these other tools out there. 00:16:51.722 --> 00:16:55.032 sometimes it's it's the build versus buy decision all over again. 00:16:57.837 --> 00:17:02.197 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah, I, went onto those, like the, those last three 00:17:02.197 --> 00:17:05.787 that you mentioned, Fern, Speakeasy and Stainless, and they all have these 00:17:05.787 --> 00:17:10.037 sort of spec editor things where you can upload the spec to it and then 00:17:10.047 --> 00:17:11.517 it'll spit out a bunch of errors. 00:17:12.177 --> 00:17:17.257 And there's probably like 15 or so validation errors that are happening. 00:17:17.257 --> 00:17:19.717 So we, we definitely have some cleanup work to do there. 00:17:20.207 --> 00:17:24.177 all the users that I've met so far, many of them are just 00:17:24.177 --> 00:17:26.517 rolling their own HTTP clients. 00:17:26.597 --> 00:17:30.967 And a lot of times it's in sharp, C sharp and they're just using built in the built 00:17:30.967 --> 00:17:33.847 in HTTP client to make whatever API call. 00:17:34.007 --> 00:17:40.597 So yeah, excited to give them a proper tool that has all the like IntelliSense. 00:17:40.597 --> 00:17:44.767 And one of the nice things that we, in our position, we do actually 00:17:44.767 --> 00:17:47.417 have like the descriptions for the fields and the descriptions for the 00:17:47.417 --> 00:17:49.677 API endpoints, which is awesome. 00:17:49.727 --> 00:17:53.852 And I'm grateful we, we do, but there's things like examples and. 00:17:54.112 --> 00:17:59.142 In terms of like input request body examples and output, we do have like 00:17:59.142 --> 00:18:03.562 responses for 200s and sometimes error responses, but not always. 00:18:04.002 --> 00:18:05.972 So there's some work to be done there. 00:18:06.329 --> 00:18:08.119 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think some people like to generate the spec 00:18:08.129 --> 00:18:11.049 and then say it's done and throw it over the fence But like the thing that 00:18:11.059 --> 00:18:13.969 the examples are a great one because it's do you where do you put the code? 00:18:15.049 --> 00:18:19.399 for the examples the requests examples or response examples, and then do you test 00:18:19.399 --> 00:18:24.569 them and I think that you mentioned like the standalone like just doing an SDK. 00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:28.924 It's like a really thin client is it Like, I think you and I are both used 00:18:28.924 --> 00:18:30.834 to, the syntactical sugar of Ruby. 00:18:31.184 --> 00:18:35.874 Is it the Ruby way, or is it just, this ham fisted, sure, it makes an 00:18:35.874 --> 00:18:37.794 HTTP request, but it's not fun to use. 00:18:38.084 --> 00:18:41.504 it makes, brings no joy whatsoever to the experience. 00:18:41.504 --> 00:18:46.324 And not every engineer or, tools person is going to be optimizing for 00:18:46.634 --> 00:18:51.274 developer experience or surprise and delight but like honestly even like 00:18:51.484 --> 00:18:55.254 the original heroku like there's just even the animation when something is 00:18:55.284 --> 00:19:00.214 happening it's just like that's extra work that makes you feel good about 00:19:00.214 --> 00:19:04.944 it using it so you know even the when you generate a new app and it has the 00:19:04.944 --> 00:19:08.594 funny name like those little things are noticeable the thing that i noticed 00:19:08.994 --> 00:19:13.784 when I use our API keys versus Stripe's is, and this is probably on purpose. 00:19:14.064 --> 00:19:18.294 If you double click on an API key from Stripe, it copies the entire 00:19:18.294 --> 00:19:20.764 thing because it uses underscores. 00:19:21.564 --> 00:19:25.244 If your API keys have dashes and other symbols in them, double clicking 00:19:25.244 --> 00:19:26.864 on it will only grab part of it. 00:19:27.849 --> 00:19:32.059 so it's like such a weird little example, but I know that's probably why it works. 00:19:32.299 --> 00:19:33.689 Is generated like that. 00:19:35.179 --> 00:19:36.169 is that a secret 00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:37.019 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I don't know for sure 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:38.879 that was there like way before I got there, 00:19:38.879 --> 00:19:39.599 so maybe. 00:19:40.209 --> 00:19:42.449 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I mean I see some of these things and it's like 00:19:42.449 --> 00:19:46.319 weird This is a sign of getting older or something but like same their co working 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:52.289 space we have Ikea coffee cups and we have other coffee cups The ikea ones are 00:19:52.289 --> 00:19:57.389 superior for the most mundane swedish reason that you would never imagine The 00:19:57.399 --> 00:20:01.389 bottom I don't this is hard to describe on radio, but the cup, there's like 00:20:01.389 --> 00:20:06.179 a ring on the bottom when it's in the dishwasher, that ring on every cup is full 00:20:06.179 --> 00:20:08.239 of water when you take the dishes out. 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:14.469 All the IKEA ones are like an X, with, and there's no water on any of them 00:20:14.469 --> 00:20:15.719 because all the water drains out. 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:19.689 And someone thought about that, and they're like, we have to do this. 00:20:19.729 --> 00:20:23.479 And that's the stuff that I think we should be bringing that level of detail. 00:20:24.044 --> 00:20:27.884 To the things that we build, but sometimes you got to fight for, that little 00:20:27.884 --> 00:20:30.604 bit of extra, experience and delight. 00:20:31.131 --> 00:20:36.741 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: prioritizing those tiny little details is especially 00:20:36.741 --> 00:20:44.561 important when the developer is like the chief persona that your entire company is. 00:20:44.826 --> 00:20:47.156 Set out to serve 00:20:47.726 --> 00:20:51.026 and when they're not, it's and they're an afterthought, it's okay, 00:20:51.026 --> 00:20:53.136 yeah, we're going to build all the new features for the dashboard. 00:20:53.196 --> 00:20:54.766 Maybe it'll make it in the API. 00:20:54.796 --> 00:20:57.846 And if it makes it in the API, it'll probably be like 80%. 00:20:57.906 --> 00:20:58.226 And then 00:20:58.276 --> 00:20:58.456 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah. 00:20:58.456 --> 00:21:02.636 I guess with discord, you aren't evaluating another API, right? 00:21:02.636 --> 00:21:04.856 If you want to build on discord, you have to use our API. 00:21:04.866 --> 00:21:07.596 So you have to use whatever experience we give you. 00:21:07.996 --> 00:21:09.396 I don't love that. 00:21:09.396 --> 00:21:10.856 That's like a reason to not. 00:21:11.181 --> 00:21:13.361 Make it great, if you have to use it. 00:21:13.661 --> 00:21:17.531 Same with, Sims 4, it might be that, someone above you is choosing it and you 00:21:17.531 --> 00:21:21.801 have to implement it or, some partner is using it so you also have to use it. 00:21:22.111 --> 00:21:26.241 I think with some of our game development stuff, I think it's like producers and 00:21:26.241 --> 00:21:29.131 studios that are picking it and then the game developer has to go read the 00:21:29.141 --> 00:21:30.751 docs and, would they have picked it? 00:21:30.761 --> 00:21:33.581 No, but if you want to ship on discord you have to, right? 00:21:33.581 --> 00:21:37.781 So same if you were to go do instant game on facebook, like there is only 00:21:37.781 --> 00:21:42.791 one way there isn't like three ways to pick from so yeah, that adds to the 00:21:42.791 --> 00:21:44.771 different flavors of devrel for sure 00:21:46.821 --> 00:21:48.651 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: One of the other things I was curious about too. 00:21:48.651 --> 00:21:53.731 So Logan, my son has been playing around with cursor and he spun 00:21:53.731 --> 00:21:56.101 up a game and pie game and. 00:21:56.531 --> 00:21:59.171 I like showed him a couple little things about here's how 00:21:59.171 --> 00:22:00.471 you use GitHub or whatever. 00:22:00.741 --> 00:22:04.741 And he's like pushing commits to GitHub under my name and using cursor like 00:22:04.741 --> 00:22:06.451 a boss and just Oh, it didn't work. 00:22:06.451 --> 00:22:06.871 It broke. 00:22:06.871 --> 00:22:09.441 fix this error, make it full screen, make it multiplayer, 00:22:09.441 --> 00:22:10.551 make it do this, make it do that. 00:22:10.551 --> 00:22:13.331 Put these sprites using chat GPT to generate different 00:22:13.331 --> 00:22:14.831 screen backgrounds and stuff. 00:22:15.366 --> 00:22:18.596 And he's at a point where I think he wants to publish it. 00:22:18.636 --> 00:22:19.786 And I was like, Oh, for sure. 00:22:19.786 --> 00:22:21.496 You should try to publish it on discord. 00:22:21.496 --> 00:22:28.416 Cause I, I know that like the, there's an insanely huge community of users 00:22:28.786 --> 00:22:31.996 and because it's two player, we try to get it up and running there. 00:22:32.016 --> 00:22:37.046 And then I did like a tiny amount of research and it seems like getting 00:22:37.046 --> 00:22:40.336 pie game into the browser is quite a bit of work just because you have to 00:22:40.336 --> 00:22:44.161 like, Use, I forget, like web, WebGL or 00:22:44.161 --> 00:22:45.661 something, or compile, 00:22:45.681 --> 00:22:46.851 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Like wasm. 00:22:46.901 --> 00:22:47.141 Yeah. 00:22:47.381 --> 00:22:47.661 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Wow. 00:22:47.751 --> 00:22:48.491 Down to WASM. 00:22:48.491 --> 00:22:48.891 Exactly. 00:22:48.891 --> 00:22:49.131 Yeah. 00:22:49.771 --> 00:22:51.681 And so I was like, I don't know if you want to do that. 00:22:51.681 --> 00:22:54.911 maybe we should just rewrite the thing in JavaScript and HTML, 00:22:55.381 --> 00:22:55.611 but, 00:22:55.661 --> 00:22:57.991 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: And there's web based game frameworks, 00:22:58.021 --> 00:23:02.911 like Phaser and some others too, so Phaser might be a thing to look at. 00:23:03.491 --> 00:23:07.951 especially because Phaser has an actual starter project too for Discord. 00:23:08.661 --> 00:23:09.121 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Nice. 00:23:09.171 --> 00:23:09.511 Okay. 00:23:09.706 --> 00:23:12.706 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: So yeah, you ran into the classic thing of I have 00:23:12.706 --> 00:23:15.676 a game that runs on a computer, right? 00:23:15.676 --> 00:23:18.356 So our activities are really meant for web based stuff. 00:23:18.726 --> 00:23:21.566 but that's a good example of we haven't written a lot of guides yet 00:23:21.616 --> 00:23:23.086 because we haven't had the time, right? 00:23:23.711 --> 00:23:27.071 Do we work with phaser and phaser writes the guide and then we write the 00:23:27.071 --> 00:23:28.611 unity guide or something like that. 00:23:28.611 --> 00:23:30.351 So those are the things that we're still figuring out. 00:23:30.351 --> 00:23:32.351 But, yeah, you were mentioning the AI stuff. 00:23:32.381 --> 00:23:36.351 I think one, what age does Logan get his own SSH keys? 00:23:36.911 --> 00:23:39.241 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Oh, he, that's like for his birthday. 00:23:39.241 --> 00:23:40.251 He's I want some, I want an 00:23:40.251 --> 00:23:41.541 open AI API key. 00:23:41.546 --> 00:23:43.696 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: You're like, I don't want to be committing his dad, I 00:23:43.696 --> 00:23:48.716 need, I don't want to, I don't want a car, I just want, I need my own github login, 00:23:48.806 --> 00:23:52.526 I need to be doing my own commits, because he's got to start that commit graph early. 00:23:53.981 --> 00:23:55.691 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: He has, no, he has his own get hub. 00:23:55.711 --> 00:23:56.541 He has his own get 00:23:56.541 --> 00:23:57.021 commits. 00:23:57.071 --> 00:24:00.221 but he cursor when he's using cursor, he's using it on my machine 00:24:00.366 --> 00:24:04.746 I have a paid cursor version and he used cursor on his own machine and 00:24:04.756 --> 00:24:06.496 like immediately ran out of tokens. 00:24:07.396 --> 00:24:09.016 So he like hit the rate limit. 00:24:09.016 --> 00:24:10.046 He's dad, let me use yours. 00:24:10.066 --> 00:24:12.186 Cause I already ran out of tokens or whatever. 00:24:12.186 --> 00:24:13.526 I was like, Oh man, this is crazy. 00:24:13.806 --> 00:24:15.496 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: we'll send this episode to Cursor 00:24:15.496 --> 00:24:16.986 and say we need a family plan. 00:24:17.026 --> 00:24:19.446 They'll be like, this is the first we're hearing of it. 00:24:19.816 --> 00:24:20.356 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah. 00:24:20.526 --> 00:24:21.656 It's yeah. 00:24:22.486 --> 00:24:24.376 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: How much of that, so how many AIs 00:24:24.376 --> 00:24:25.386 are you paying for right now? 00:24:26.356 --> 00:24:28.236 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Oh, this is a great question. 00:24:28.356 --> 00:24:29.686 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Which is a weird question to 00:24:29.696 --> 00:24:31.946 be asking at the year of 2025. 00:24:33.616 --> 00:24:34.586 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I pay for cursor. 00:24:34.586 --> 00:24:35.796 I pay for Descript. 00:24:35.796 --> 00:24:36.566 I don't know if that counts, 00:24:36.766 --> 00:24:37.726 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think it counts. 00:24:38.216 --> 00:24:42.786 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I just canceled 11 labs because I was paying every month 00:24:43.306 --> 00:24:47.686 because I had this aspiration that I was going to go and build something with it. 00:24:47.686 --> 00:24:49.556 And I was like, Oh yeah, this is the month for sure. 00:24:49.556 --> 00:24:52.076 I saw the, every time I saw it hit my credit card. 00:24:52.076 --> 00:24:54.896 I was like, this is the month I'm going to build a thing on 11 labs. 00:24:54.946 --> 00:25:00.236 And since I, Built story fuel, which was like a podcast 00:25:00.246 --> 00:25:01.856 story kind of generator thing. 00:25:01.866 --> 00:25:04.226 And that was a long time ago, pre GPT four. 00:25:04.756 --> 00:25:06.886 And then I hadn't touched it since then. 00:25:06.916 --> 00:25:10.746 And so I've just been paying like, okay, so canceled that. 00:25:10.756 --> 00:25:11.246 What else? 00:25:11.296 --> 00:25:14.516 we're paying for one chat, GPT membership. 00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:19.686 and I have chat, GPT, like enterprise through work, 00:25:20.436 --> 00:25:22.246 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: When you pay for chat GPT, are you paying 00:25:22.246 --> 00:25:24.396 for the 20 a month or like the 200? 00:25:25.296 --> 00:25:25.626 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah. 00:25:26.446 --> 00:25:26.826 Yeah. 00:25:27.736 --> 00:25:29.516 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Gemini is free? 00:25:29.636 --> 00:25:30.326 Question mark? 00:25:30.326 --> 00:25:32.586 I don't actually use, I've never really used Gemini. 00:25:33.216 --> 00:25:33.546 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah. 00:25:33.586 --> 00:25:33.856 Okay. 00:25:33.856 --> 00:25:36.556 So those are all the tools that I'm paying for like tool wise. 00:25:36.586 --> 00:25:42.476 And then I have usage based accounts with both open AI and Anthropic where 00:25:42.476 --> 00:25:45.906 I have API keys that I'm using like from my website or from like little, 00:25:46.336 --> 00:25:48.886 I set up like a script that runs. 00:25:48.896 --> 00:25:48.916 Yeah. 00:25:49.671 --> 00:25:53.561 That reviews my PRs on GitHub and sends me a Slack message with here's some content 00:25:53.561 --> 00:25:56.821 that you could tweet about, like something that you did that was interesting 00:25:56.881 --> 00:25:57.951 this week or something like that. 00:25:58.421 --> 00:26:00.521 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: and then you pay for cursor, but then are you also 00:26:00.521 --> 00:26:02.051 paying for the model underneath it? 00:26:02.151 --> 00:26:04.771 Or are you just using whatever comes with cursor? 00:26:05.371 --> 00:26:08.471 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I think that it's using cloud sonnet 00:26:08.661 --> 00:26:09.021 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Okay. 00:26:09.341 --> 00:26:11.221 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: and it's not using my API key. 00:26:11.221 --> 00:26:12.061 it's using theirs. 00:26:12.591 --> 00:26:16.044 And I think part of that is they have their own, I don't know how it works, 00:26:16.044 --> 00:26:17.774 but I think they have their own models. 00:26:18.424 --> 00:26:22.764 That also do like indexing and some other stuff maybe, to 00:26:22.764 --> 00:26:25.054 help make the rag bits better. 00:26:25.074 --> 00:26:28.344 But, I'm paying for it and I have an account through work. 00:26:28.354 --> 00:26:30.824 So I, that's like a double dip, But what about you? 00:26:30.834 --> 00:26:30.994 What, 00:26:31.044 --> 00:26:32.494 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think what's going to be interesting is 00:26:32.494 --> 00:26:35.714 what happens when everyone decides that they're paying for too many AIs. 00:26:35.774 --> 00:26:37.584 And there's like this consolidation. 00:26:37.594 --> 00:26:42.394 Cause, at work, we have copilot. 00:26:42.779 --> 00:26:44.199 That's paid for in github. 00:26:44.299 --> 00:26:46.819 I guess I have access to the free copilot. 00:26:46.819 --> 00:26:53.079 I don't really use it so yeah, I pay for d script I pay for Chat gpt. 00:26:53.129 --> 00:26:57.789 I pay for cursor and I think that's it right now at work We're 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:01.049 testing both claude and chat gpt to pit them against each other. 00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:03.719 So like They will be paying for one of those at some point. 00:27:04.289 --> 00:27:06.159 and then I think we're all getting cursor at work too. 00:27:06.159 --> 00:27:08.969 So that's going to be like extra, right? 00:27:08.969 --> 00:27:12.139 this podcast won't go out until all those things are settled, hopefully, but, 00:27:12.174 --> 00:27:12.514 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: yeah. 00:27:12.707 --> 00:27:14.027 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: but we're all paying weight. 00:27:14.057 --> 00:27:15.377 I don't think everyone is doing this. 00:27:15.477 --> 00:27:17.237 I think this is engineers that are doing this. 00:27:17.577 --> 00:27:19.837 We all want to like, see what the difference is. 00:27:20.357 --> 00:27:21.917 Which one do you reach for first? 00:27:21.917 --> 00:27:25.697 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I definitely have been training myself more and 00:27:25.697 --> 00:27:29.407 more when I'm in cursor to try to stay in context, stay inside a cursor. 00:27:30.117 --> 00:27:33.017 If I'm not like, if I'm doing stuff for work, I use chat GPT. 00:27:33.267 --> 00:27:34.737 the enterprise version is pretty good. 00:27:34.747 --> 00:27:38.207 I've started organizing it into projects and in each project, I'll 00:27:38.207 --> 00:27:41.317 give it a system prompt that's related to that helps keep it pretty tight. 00:27:41.687 --> 00:27:45.687 And the enterprise one does like fancy stuff where it won't leak your 00:27:45.717 --> 00:27:46.257 work. 00:27:46.977 --> 00:27:47.767 Whatever details. 00:27:47.767 --> 00:27:49.577 So I use that one a ton 00:27:49.677 --> 00:27:51.927 , colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think that's why all the enterprises are looking into 00:27:51.927 --> 00:27:55.077 it because it's like we know you all are doing this on your own please stop 00:27:55.637 --> 00:27:58.157 and stop leaking stuff, which is smart. 00:27:58.157 --> 00:28:00.497 So yeah, like at our work, it's enterprise, too 00:28:00.527 --> 00:28:01.027 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: totally. 00:28:01.077 --> 00:28:07.817 I feel like the, the chat GPT AP or like the open AI APIs are, I don't know. 00:28:07.857 --> 00:28:09.777 I don't want to say like the easiest to work with cause 00:28:09.777 --> 00:28:11.067 they're all like roughly the same. 00:28:11.077 --> 00:28:13.637 Maybe it's just like the one I've, I learned first. 00:28:13.637 --> 00:28:15.077 And so I'm like most comfortable with it. 00:28:15.097 --> 00:28:20.417 But, I did download, DeepSeek and run, like running it locally with Olama 00:28:20.417 --> 00:28:25.877 and, that every time I open up Olama, I think part of the deal is that I need 00:28:25.877 --> 00:28:29.867 to run like a, some sort of local web UI or something, because when I run 00:28:29.867 --> 00:28:33.987 it in the terminal, it just doesn't feel as readable maybe, or like as 00:28:33.987 --> 00:28:35.717 consumable as it is in the browser. 00:28:36.237 --> 00:28:40.412 And Even though the content has been pretty darn good, I just 00:28:40.412 --> 00:28:43.332 feel like the, what I get in the browser is just easier to parse 00:28:43.342 --> 00:28:44.762 for me, like mentally or something. 00:28:44.812 --> 00:28:46.262 have you run any of those local models 00:28:46.332 --> 00:28:47.462 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I have it now 00:28:47.992 --> 00:28:48.332 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Okay. 00:28:48.492 --> 00:28:49.322 it's two commands. 00:28:49.342 --> 00:28:52.402 It's like basically like brew install and then do a thing, 00:28:52.482 --> 00:28:53.912 or I don't even know if it's brew install. 00:28:53.912 --> 00:28:54.682 It's Oh, llama. 00:28:54.877 --> 00:28:56.147 You install the Olama app. 00:28:56.167 --> 00:28:59.757 And then in the terminal you write Olama run and the name of the model. 00:28:59.757 --> 00:29:01.037 And it just pops up in a terminal. 00:29:01.037 --> 00:29:02.892 That give you a prompt to start typing. 00:29:03.293 --> 00:29:05.413 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think what I like about Cursor is that, you 00:29:05.413 --> 00:29:07.983 can swap out what model it is, right? 00:29:07.983 --> 00:29:11.153 I don't know if it works with Allama and stuff, but, it feels like these are all 00:29:11.153 --> 00:29:14.143 going to be interchangeable, even if you go to Azure or, GitHub has this thing 00:29:14.143 --> 00:29:15.503 now where you can compare two models. 00:29:15.503 --> 00:29:16.183 Have you seen this? 00:29:17.013 --> 00:29:20.963 So you can run the same prompt against two models and it'll show you the difference. 00:29:21.163 --> 00:29:24.863 we'll put a link to that, but it, like you can swap them all out 00:29:25.073 --> 00:29:28.323 in GitHub or Azure or AWS, right? 00:29:28.323 --> 00:29:30.033 Like it, it doesn't really matter. 00:29:30.033 --> 00:29:33.063 And so it's like going to become like electricity and then it's 00:29:33.063 --> 00:29:37.203 the layer on top of that or the custom training for like you said, 00:29:37.203 --> 00:29:38.983 like certain rag for programming. 00:29:39.433 --> 00:29:41.803 is it, what does the game development one look like? 00:29:42.153 --> 00:29:45.443 And I still, I think no matter what I do, I still find myself 00:29:45.863 --> 00:29:49.083 not being worried about, I don't think this is going to replace us. 00:29:49.653 --> 00:29:54.843 It just makes us do things either faster, better, stronger, right? 00:29:55.848 --> 00:29:57.828 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: It's been interesting watching Logan build 00:29:57.838 --> 00:30:02.958 basically this whole thing by himself and saying Oh, I didn't actually code it. 00:30:02.958 --> 00:30:03.798 I don't know how to code. 00:30:04.158 --> 00:30:08.098 I'm like, you you prompted your way through 500 lines of Python. 00:30:08.753 --> 00:30:13.323 And like several classes, like files, like tons of files. 00:30:13.323 --> 00:30:16.433 It's a full get repo is like a bunch of stuff. 00:30:17.073 --> 00:30:20.443 I'm like, that's exactly what professional programmers are doing. 00:30:20.463 --> 00:30:24.293 Like you, the way you just did it is the way that 90 percent of like 00:30:24.303 --> 00:30:25.883 professional devs are doing it now. 00:30:25.933 --> 00:30:26.973 so yeah, I don't know. 00:30:26.973 --> 00:30:27.783 it's interesting. 00:30:28.123 --> 00:30:30.553 One of the things I'm curious about too, is whether or not 00:30:30.633 --> 00:30:32.093 SDKs are even going to be. 00:30:33.213 --> 00:30:34.253 Thing anymore, right? 00:30:34.253 --> 00:30:39.953 are people going to do this bespoke handcrafted implementation 00:30:40.023 --> 00:30:42.983 or are they just going to ask an LLM to spit it out for them? 00:30:42.983 --> 00:30:45.593 I still think the SDK makes it look better and has lots of 00:30:45.603 --> 00:30:47.953 benefits in terms of retries and 00:30:48.393 --> 00:30:53.358 auto pagination and like error handling, things like that, that And 00:30:53.463 --> 00:30:55.673 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: We should do this as a little project together. 00:30:55.713 --> 00:30:57.443 We should try to prompt an SDK. 00:30:57.803 --> 00:31:00.973 Because, if you prompt the retries, okay, handle retries. 00:31:01.443 --> 00:31:04.543 Because if you were normally writing a prompt, we run into this. 00:31:04.543 --> 00:31:07.093 I'll often say, build me a quick Discord bot. 00:31:07.453 --> 00:31:09.543 And it wants to default to Discord. 00:31:09.553 --> 00:31:09.893 js. 00:31:09.903 --> 00:31:13.963 So it wants to use an SDK because it's the most documented SDK. 00:31:14.523 --> 00:31:20.693 Our docs are, like, pure HTTP And so I'll tell it intentionally, use 00:31:20.893 --> 00:31:22.733 Ruby, use JavaScript, whatever. 00:31:23.063 --> 00:31:24.273 Do not use Discord. 00:31:24.283 --> 00:31:24.893 js. 00:31:24.903 --> 00:31:27.963 Do it, if it's so vented, just do straight WebSockets. 00:31:27.973 --> 00:31:29.443 Don't use anything fancy. 00:31:29.883 --> 00:31:32.263 and it'll eventually get there, but then I have to tell it, what, 00:31:32.363 --> 00:31:33.433 make sure you send the heartbeat. 00:31:33.473 --> 00:31:34.543 Make sure you retry. 00:31:34.563 --> 00:31:35.593 Make sure you catch errors. 00:31:35.643 --> 00:31:39.093 it would almost be interesting to say, What does a prompt look like? 00:31:39.093 --> 00:31:41.223 And you could give it any API spec. 00:31:41.653 --> 00:31:43.673 And maybe that is what some of these companies are doing. 00:31:43.673 --> 00:31:44.423 I don't know. 00:31:44.493 --> 00:31:47.043 But, some of this is not LLM needed. 00:31:47.043 --> 00:31:50.713 It's more just literal function, generation and stuff. 00:31:50.743 --> 00:31:53.113 But, I wonder how close it would get. 00:31:53.536 --> 00:31:57.106 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: When you're, Documenting WebSockets, you surely 00:31:57.106 --> 00:32:01.806 you have the format of the message in the docs and then is the LLM picking 00:32:01.806 --> 00:32:03.636 that up and it's able to know what, 00:32:04.506 --> 00:32:05.676 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I would assume it depends on what 00:32:05.676 --> 00:32:06.856 it's been trained on, right? 00:32:06.856 --> 00:32:11.636 So that's if I just go off of pure chat GPT, like sometimes it knows 00:32:11.646 --> 00:32:15.626 what to pull from and it's not been intentionally trained on just RDoX. 00:32:15.656 --> 00:32:19.766 So it might see some example of someone doing something completely different 00:32:19.766 --> 00:32:23.706 somewhere else and just that's where I don't feel like we're there yet. 00:32:23.766 --> 00:32:24.906 and I'm okay with that. 00:32:24.916 --> 00:32:28.096 that's not, I don't want something to build me something 00:32:28.096 --> 00:32:30.516 without my intervention at all. 00:32:30.876 --> 00:32:31.276 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: yeah, 00:32:31.331 --> 00:32:34.431 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: if I don't fully believe that there's like this 00:32:34.431 --> 00:32:37.401 whole thing about any app that you could possibly think of, you can now just 00:32:37.951 --> 00:32:39.951 prompt it or like it just generates it. 00:32:40.351 --> 00:32:42.991 It's like we could have built all the apps that we could possibly 00:32:43.001 --> 00:32:46.001 have wanted and we haven't because some of them are not wanted, right? 00:32:46.001 --> 00:32:46.721 They're not needed. 00:32:47.131 --> 00:32:48.321 There is no market for them. 00:32:48.341 --> 00:32:49.731 So sure, maybe. 00:32:50.131 --> 00:32:54.711 The perfect to do list app for CJ could be prompted, and you're the only user 00:32:54.711 --> 00:32:57.111 of it, and it's hosted who knows where. 00:32:57.161 --> 00:32:58.081 you don't even have to care. 00:32:58.131 --> 00:33:01.481 have you actually, I am now paying for another one, which is v0. 00:33:01.521 --> 00:33:03.031 Have you used this at all? 00:33:03.616 --> 00:33:04.096 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I have. 00:33:04.116 --> 00:33:04.476 Yeah, 00:33:04.541 --> 00:33:04.911 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah. 00:33:05.041 --> 00:33:10.461 that one feels more like a prompting of a product because, a repo is created. 00:33:11.276 --> 00:33:14.486 server is credits hosted and then it's I was doing something with 00:33:14.486 --> 00:33:18.266 GitHub and a UI popped up and said, what's your GitHub keys? 00:33:18.326 --> 00:33:20.906 And I put 'em in there and they get added to the environment variables. 00:33:20.906 --> 00:33:22.796 I was like, this feels so cool. 00:33:22.856 --> 00:33:26.406 And then it's pulling in Chad CN and, tailwind and all that stuff. 00:33:26.406 --> 00:33:30.446 But like, does it matter that it did it or it told me to put 00:33:30.446 --> 00:33:32.066 this in this folder somewhere? 00:33:32.116 --> 00:33:32.946 it's the same thing. 00:33:33.636 --> 00:33:34.006 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: yeah. 00:33:34.396 --> 00:33:37.216 I'm also curious to go back to the WebSocket documentation. 00:33:37.236 --> 00:33:42.796 Are you, generating and, Artifact that describes the messages that go over 00:33:42.796 --> 00:33:46.496 web sockets, like the async API spec or 00:33:47.101 --> 00:33:49.261 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: There is no API spec for that. 00:33:49.291 --> 00:33:49.771 API. 00:33:50.666 --> 00:33:53.286 Yeah, because it's basically an RPC API. 00:33:53.656 --> 00:33:56.416 And so we don't have an open API spec for that, 00:33:57.216 --> 00:33:57.556 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Okay. 00:33:57.966 --> 00:33:58.086 Yeah. 00:33:58.086 --> 00:34:00.146 We have a Kafka. 00:34:00.226 --> 00:34:02.956 We have Kafka streaming that's going to come out very soon. 00:34:02.956 --> 00:34:05.496 And one of the things that I've been curious about is 00:34:05.496 --> 00:34:08.956 like, how do we generate How 00:34:09.356 --> 00:34:10.106 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: like a spec. 00:34:10.116 --> 00:34:13.626 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: do we generate, yeah, SDKs or yeah, use the open API 00:34:13.626 --> 00:34:17.916 spec to generate messages, or like the shapes of the message types or whatever 00:34:17.916 --> 00:34:21.136 that you can do serialize into so that you have like proper types and stuff. 00:34:21.196 --> 00:34:26.516 And it's my understanding that a sync API or. 00:34:27.186 --> 00:34:27.546 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: yeah. 00:34:27.961 --> 00:34:30.411 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: or just like putting it in your open API spec as like 00:34:30.411 --> 00:34:35.051 the different objects, almost like web socket payloads, but they're for messages. 00:34:35.611 --> 00:34:37.251 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah, I haven't explored that. 00:34:37.251 --> 00:34:41.261 But I imagine that the problem with open API is I think it's meant to 00:34:41.271 --> 00:34:45.571 be REST based, but I don't see why you couldn't have here's our REST 00:34:45.761 --> 00:34:48.541 API spec and here's our Kafka one. 00:34:49.166 --> 00:34:49.626 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Yeah. 00:34:50.306 --> 00:34:55.986 And then the other, like when you're talking about web sockets, like there's 00:34:56.016 --> 00:34:58.706 other stuff that's not just the payload that you need, like the channel or 00:34:58.706 --> 00:35:01.946 whatever that you're going over and yeah, whether or not you have a heartbeat in, 00:35:02.381 --> 00:35:04.641 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah, and like the fact that you, when 00:35:04.641 --> 00:35:08.041 do you send an identify and then a heartbeat to keep it going and 00:35:08.041 --> 00:35:10.101 there's just so much detail in there. 00:35:10.571 --> 00:35:13.701 I'm, those have been around for so long that there's gotta be. 00:35:14.346 --> 00:35:16.106 I just haven't touched that before. 00:35:16.496 --> 00:35:17.886 I think of even SOAP, right? 00:35:17.916 --> 00:35:19.376 It's these things exist. 00:35:19.766 --> 00:35:23.046 gRPC, documentation, all that kind of stuff. 00:35:23.393 --> 00:35:26.963 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: So is web sockets the, that's like the primary communication 00:35:26.963 --> 00:35:28.773 channel when you're building an activity. 00:35:29.143 --> 00:35:33.013 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: No, so we call it the gateway, and it is, a way 00:35:33.013 --> 00:35:35.383 for bots to listen to events in a server. 00:35:35.743 --> 00:35:39.503 When your bot is in a million servers, you're listening to the events, 00:35:39.573 --> 00:35:41.413 whichever events you're scoped to. 00:35:41.963 --> 00:35:46.563 So maybe it's, when a person comes online, all the way down to someone 00:35:46.593 --> 00:35:50.693 typing, which can be way too many events, so you have to be careful of, like, 00:35:50.693 --> 00:35:52.133 how many events you're listening to. 00:35:52.733 --> 00:35:54.723 Maybe we don't even let you listen to typing, because 00:35:54.723 --> 00:35:56.693 typing is a little intense. 00:35:56.723 --> 00:36:00.023 But we listen to it, because we need to give you the indicator 00:36:00.053 --> 00:36:01.613 of someone's typing, right? 00:36:03.448 --> 00:36:04.468 Yeah, so we have that. 00:36:04.468 --> 00:36:07.088 But if you go look at our gateway docs, you'll see like it's very 00:36:07.098 --> 00:36:11.158 hand curated, just payloads. 00:36:11.188 --> 00:36:12.948 And if it's wrong, someone does a PR to it. 00:36:12.978 --> 00:36:14.218 We don't have a spec for that. 00:36:14.488 --> 00:36:17.288 And they don't match our rest endpoint payloads. 00:36:18.378 --> 00:36:19.628 So they're a little different. 00:36:20.273 --> 00:36:22.653 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: One of the things I'd love to do, it's to build a thing 00:36:22.653 --> 00:36:24.953 that will go out, you can give it a discord channel, you can give it a Slack 00:36:24.953 --> 00:36:27.463 channel, you can give it a docs site. 00:36:27.473 --> 00:36:32.746 You can give it a couple of like social, handles or something. 00:36:32.796 --> 00:36:37.066 And then it just builds like a giant listener for you that can start to 00:36:37.066 --> 00:36:42.166 understand sentiment and start to surface here's common themes and common, yeah, 00:36:42.166 --> 00:36:43.996 common issues that devs are running into. 00:36:44.476 --> 00:36:46.156 Do whatever happened to orbit? 00:36:46.156 --> 00:36:46.826 what is it? 00:36:46.836 --> 00:36:48.836 Is it, do they take it all down 00:36:48.991 --> 00:36:49.821 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I think it's gone. 00:36:49.821 --> 00:36:50.511 Yeah. 00:36:50.751 --> 00:36:52.471 Postman acquired the team. 00:36:52.471 --> 00:36:56.211 So they're building like developer communities tools into Postman. 00:36:57.041 --> 00:36:58.371 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: orbit dot love? 00:36:58.411 --> 00:36:59.151 Oh, it's still there. 00:36:59.701 --> 00:37:00.261 Uh, 00:37:00.819 --> 00:37:02.569 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I don't know if you can log in, but 00:37:02.649 --> 00:37:03.519 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: have a login button. 00:37:03.988 --> 00:37:04.718 Oh no. 00:37:04.948 --> 00:37:06.238 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: pour one out for Orbit. 00:37:06.768 --> 00:37:07.358 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: yeah. 00:37:07.848 --> 00:37:09.888 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: CJ was one of our early users. 00:37:10.283 --> 00:37:13.303 that even brings back to that idea of the tool, like you were talking, the 00:37:13.413 --> 00:37:14.613 top of the show we were talking about. 00:37:14.833 --> 00:37:15.393 Read me. 00:37:15.913 --> 00:37:19.163 do you I think, or what's the other tool? 00:37:19.163 --> 00:37:20.663 Speakeasy, Fern, Stainless. 00:37:20.973 --> 00:37:23.743 They're all getting into this like SDK generation as the first 00:37:23.743 --> 00:37:26.903 thing, and then they're like, Oh, I guess we could also offer docs. 00:37:27.333 --> 00:37:33.173 But do you want your tool to do everything like halfway, or do you want like a 00:37:33.173 --> 00:37:38.213 really good docs provider, a really good SDK provider, I'm assuming that it's 00:37:38.213 --> 00:37:39.763 like an expansion thing for them, right? 00:37:39.763 --> 00:37:42.533 They're like, we're already doing this, so let's also give you this. 00:37:43.043 --> 00:37:46.845 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: I think that it is products that are. 00:37:47.065 --> 00:37:49.335 Supported by an open API spec. 00:37:49.395 --> 00:37:53.135 It's what are all the cool things we can build downstream from an open API spec? 00:37:53.565 --> 00:37:56.415 And so the, I think the most obvious is SDKs. 00:37:57.075 --> 00:38:00.965 And the second most obvious is an API ref and like guides and docs 00:38:00.965 --> 00:38:04.375 and all the other stuff around the API ref is just expansion. 00:38:04.865 --> 00:38:06.175 And then I think. 00:38:06.585 --> 00:38:12.365 Like command line interface and then developer metrics and, a playground 00:38:12.405 --> 00:38:13.165 and 00:38:13.225 --> 00:38:13.395 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: hmm. 00:38:14.425 --> 00:38:16.465 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: sandbox and like all this other 00:38:16.465 --> 00:38:18.485 stuff like comes downstream. 00:38:18.485 --> 00:38:23.855 So I think it's a lot of the things that you would expect from, like when you're 00:38:23.865 --> 00:38:29.625 in any dashboard and you click on the developers tab, can these companies build 00:38:29.975 --> 00:38:30.535 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Do all of it. 00:38:30.585 --> 00:38:31.195 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: products? 00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:31.635 Yeah. 00:38:31.645 --> 00:38:32.695 To solve all those problems, 00:38:32.695 --> 00:38:35.825 like logs, webhook events, 00:38:36.215 --> 00:38:38.115 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: still want to build that as a Ruby gem. 00:38:38.643 --> 00:38:44.158 I think the challenge that I run into is it's like Shopify is like, Oh, 00:38:44.158 --> 00:38:47.218 we're going to give you a website, but it's like the worst website, right? 00:38:47.338 --> 00:38:49.128 And it's we're going to do your e commerce, but then we're also 00:38:49.158 --> 00:38:50.098 going to be your website builder. 00:38:50.118 --> 00:38:52.798 Or, some of the website builders got into e commerce 00:38:52.798 --> 00:38:55.228 and it's not the best e commerce experience, but it's really great. 00:38:55.648 --> 00:38:58.628 And so I always get a struggle with it where it's okay, you can 00:38:58.628 --> 00:39:00.478 make the reference all day long. 00:39:00.848 --> 00:39:02.178 I believe you can generate that. 00:39:02.498 --> 00:39:06.488 But when you get into the guides, then it's like the worst editing experience. 00:39:06.918 --> 00:39:11.198 It's like half of a CMS, maybe it's version controlled, stuff like that. 00:39:11.198 --> 00:39:15.378 So I hope, I would love for one company to be able to ship that. 00:39:15.668 --> 00:39:17.978 And then you end up with all of them competing against each 00:39:17.978 --> 00:39:19.508 other on, stuff like that. 00:39:19.508 --> 00:39:20.828 So I don't know. 00:39:20.848 --> 00:39:24.118 I haven't looked at this anytime I go to stainless or any of their websites, I get 00:39:24.118 --> 00:39:27.598 a bunch of emails cause I think they're somehow using some sort of tracking, 00:39:28.168 --> 00:39:31.258 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: in order for us to build our own first party SDKs 00:39:31.338 --> 00:39:37.318 and do a good job at it and build and maintain a solid docs product, 00:39:37.368 --> 00:39:41.298 it would require several engineers and several tech writers and several 00:39:41.598 --> 00:39:43.278 people focusing on that full time. 00:39:43.548 --> 00:39:47.238 At Stripe, there was a whole team that just built the documentation and a 00:39:47.238 --> 00:39:50.798 whole team that just built SDKs and manage that SDK generation pipeline. 00:39:50.798 --> 00:39:54.948 And it was, three, four or five full time engineers that worked on it. 00:39:54.998 --> 00:39:59.558 And so if a company can really master. 00:40:00.953 --> 00:40:01.843 The SDK bit. 00:40:01.893 --> 00:40:06.703 And if the company can really master the docs bit, then I think it makes tons of 00:40:06.703 --> 00:40:13.703 sense to pay even like a full salary, like a full time dev salary of one or two 00:40:13.703 --> 00:40:18.773 engineers in order to not have to bring that in house and to be able to meet. 00:40:19.058 --> 00:40:20.348 External devs where they are. 00:40:20.698 --> 00:40:22.788 The thing about these companies too, is they'll continue adding 00:40:22.788 --> 00:40:25.618 languages that you might not have otherwise had the bandwidth to add. 00:40:25.618 --> 00:40:26.773 So that's right. 00:40:26.783 --> 00:40:31.123 For a long time, I wanted to add support for rust as an official language. 00:40:31.143 --> 00:40:34.833 We never got there, but the other seven were very highly supported, 00:40:35.233 --> 00:40:38.523 but like even thinking about or considering adding another language 00:40:38.523 --> 00:40:39.793 was just like out of the question. 00:40:39.793 --> 00:40:40.133 So 00:40:40.188 --> 00:40:43.638 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: and any new feature that OpenAPI supports in the 00:40:43.668 --> 00:40:48.118 OpenAPI spec or anything like goes across all seven languages, all seven SDKs, 00:40:48.118 --> 00:40:52.618 it's not if you did these by hand, you'd have to go, re implement all of them. 00:40:53.518 --> 00:40:56.058 That feature in all of them, which would be a pain. 00:40:56.158 --> 00:40:57.458 So yeah. 00:40:57.488 --> 00:40:58.868 And then, I've seen it too. 00:40:58.918 --> 00:41:02.798 are you really wanting to reinvent the wheel on how SDKs are generated 00:41:02.798 --> 00:41:06.138 and create a pipeline and learn all the things the hard way. 00:41:06.138 --> 00:41:08.718 And then someone leaves the team and you got to find someone else. 00:41:08.718 --> 00:41:09.423 And it's a lot. 00:41:10.213 --> 00:41:10.693 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: totally. 00:41:10.723 --> 00:41:11.003 Yeah. 00:41:11.003 --> 00:41:15.013 And yeah, as technology evolves in terms of. 00:41:15.703 --> 00:41:17.413 The core of these SDKs. 00:41:17.483 --> 00:41:21.293 do you support async with Python and what kind of typing do you support? 00:41:21.313 --> 00:41:25.713 And can you swap out the HTTP client so that you can do like connection pooling 00:41:25.713 --> 00:41:29.723 and like telemetry and like all this other stuff, like keeping up with all 00:41:29.723 --> 00:41:33.553 of those things in so many languages and in different ecosystems is tough, 00:41:33.573 --> 00:41:37.383 so yeah, just paying someone else to take care of it seems. 00:41:39.043 --> 00:41:39.423 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: seems 00:41:39.423 --> 00:41:40.063 obvious. 00:41:40.213 --> 00:41:43.423 seems like a check mark in the buy column for sure. 00:41:43.663 --> 00:41:44.003 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: yeah. 00:41:44.163 --> 00:41:44.563 Yeah. 00:41:44.763 --> 00:41:46.833 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I've totally forgot to even share with you, but I 00:41:46.833 --> 00:41:48.913 guess it's like we can wrap up here. 00:41:49.273 --> 00:41:52.793 I'm gonna be speaking at Write the Docs in May. 00:41:52.863 --> 00:41:53.263 Yeah. 00:41:53.893 --> 00:41:54.693 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: No way. 00:41:54.733 --> 00:41:55.823 Congratulations. 00:41:55.843 --> 00:41:56.033 That's 00:41:56.383 --> 00:41:58.743 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: I don't think the schedule has been announced 00:41:58.743 --> 00:42:03.853 yet, but, so yeah, I'm doing a talk on having your docs be open source. 00:42:03.903 --> 00:42:04.213 so 00:42:05.093 --> 00:42:06.693 taking PRs 00:42:07.513 --> 00:42:11.353 and just being in the open, not every company gets to choose 00:42:11.353 --> 00:42:12.673 whether or not they're in the open. 00:42:12.713 --> 00:42:17.033 but we'll talk about what we learned, things that we wish we could do 00:42:17.033 --> 00:42:19.228 better, things we want to do better. 00:42:19.318 --> 00:42:23.628 but a lot of the benefits of bringing the community with you in your docs 00:42:23.628 --> 00:42:25.368 and you're not asking for free help. 00:42:25.368 --> 00:42:27.528 You're part, you're building it together. 00:42:28.838 --> 00:42:30.638 So yeah, excited to do that. 00:42:30.908 --> 00:42:31.248 Yeah. 00:42:32.488 --> 00:42:34.098 Some more docs things. 00:42:34.848 --> 00:42:37.908 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: So you at the last one, didn't you volunteer? 00:42:38.738 --> 00:42:39.258 Nice. 00:42:39.338 --> 00:42:39.778 Okay. 00:42:40.168 --> 00:42:40.948 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yeah, I forgot. 00:42:41.188 --> 00:42:42.468 I think it was, mostly technical. 00:42:42.468 --> 00:42:43.838 I love how they were talking about this. 00:42:43.848 --> 00:42:48.298 if you go to conferences, it's always best to be involved somehow. 00:42:48.388 --> 00:42:51.758 And, you can be in the audience, you can get to see the talks, but, 00:42:51.758 --> 00:42:54.738 if you're volunteering or speaking, you're gonna just have a better 00:42:54.738 --> 00:42:58.658 experience, because The conference is putting you on a stage, literally. 00:42:59.138 --> 00:43:02.968 And it, multiplies whatever, if your company's sending you, cool. 00:43:02.998 --> 00:43:06.208 If you're sending yourself, you really want to make it worth your while. 00:43:06.728 --> 00:43:09.158 It doesn't make sense if these videos are going to be online for you to 00:43:09.158 --> 00:43:10.808 go and then, not talk to anybody. 00:43:11.318 --> 00:43:16.079 I think, yeah, I think having Volunteered probably helped because I was able to 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.889 meet the organizers and I also when I volunteered I was helping all the 00:43:19.899 --> 00:43:23.489 speakers get ready and getting it mic'd up So I got to meet all the speakers 00:43:23.789 --> 00:43:28.249 which was also a win So yeah I think highly recommend if you're trying to 00:43:28.259 --> 00:43:32.429 get into it to look for a conference you can spot like If you can't sponsor 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.879 one volunteer for one don't necessarily recommend starting one from scratch if 00:43:36.879 --> 00:43:40.009 you've not been but I've been there too 00:43:40.994 --> 00:43:41.494 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Nice. 00:43:41.764 --> 00:43:43.554 Are you also volunteering again at this one 00:43:43.749 --> 00:43:43.999 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: No. 00:43:43.999 --> 00:43:46.629 I'll be focused on just making sure the talk is really good. 00:43:47.129 --> 00:43:48.879 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: that after, GDC? 00:43:48.884 --> 00:43:50.254 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Yes, thank goodness. 00:43:50.419 --> 00:43:50.889 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: nice. 00:43:50.939 --> 00:43:51.289 Yeah. 00:43:51.319 --> 00:43:51.609 Yeah. 00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:51.799 That 00:43:51.844 --> 00:43:53.004 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: Cause, Yeah, you mentioned 00:43:53.014 --> 00:43:54.284 your event is in four months. 00:43:54.284 --> 00:43:55.674 Our event is in one month. 00:43:55.684 --> 00:43:57.524 So I have a month to get ready. 00:43:58.144 --> 00:44:02.324 GDC is next month, and then, May will be right the ducks. 00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:03.159 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Got it. 00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:03.369 Yeah. 00:44:03.369 --> 00:44:05.579 You are in crunch time right now then for sure. 00:44:06.649 --> 00:44:07.209 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: For sure. 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.829 But yeah, glad we could shake off some of the dust on the podcast. 00:44:11.829 --> 00:44:16.009 I hope people had a good, little season, season three, break before season three. 00:44:16.539 --> 00:44:19.529 This is technically the third year of the podcast, so 00:44:19.589 --> 00:44:20.279 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: We're back. 00:44:20.439 --> 00:44:21.119 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: back. 00:44:22.019 --> 00:44:23.119 February 5th. 00:44:23.299 --> 00:44:25.339 I think, three years will be in August. 00:44:25.618 --> 00:44:26.158 cj_1_02-05-2025_160726: Wow. 00:44:26.458 --> 00:44:27.458 Thanks for listening. 00:44:27.558 --> 00:44:28.708 Head over to build and learn. 00:44:28.708 --> 00:44:33.158 dev for all the resources and things we talked about in the show notes 00:44:33.268 --> 00:44:34.438 and we'll catch you next time. 00:44:35.218 --> 00:44:35.648 colin_1_02-05-2025_130726: See ya.