Travis Bader: Joined today by one of the world's top survival experts.
She's an expedition leader, author of Mind of a Survivor, and a key figure
behind the scenes of some of the biggest survival shows in the world.
She has a deep understanding of persevering in the wild, combined with
a unique insight into the human mind.
Which allows her to help others who work at high risk and
trauma filled environments.
Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Megan Heine.
Megan Hine: That's quite the introduction.
Hi, Travis.
It's great to be with you.
It's a
Travis Bader: shame we didn't
Megan Hine: quite manage to do in person though, did we?
We've like, it almost happened just before Christmas.
Travis Bader: So close, so close.
And you know, I, I gotta be honest, I have wanted to have you on the
podcast for a very long time.
And when you and I were working on that Fox show, Extracted Together,
I thought, oh, this is perfect.
You're up in Whistler working on this new show.
I'm up there.
Surely we're going to be able to make something Connect there, but that
was, that was my first experience working on a larger film production.
And, um, yeah, um, apparently I misunderstood the, uh, the time allocation
required to work on these things.
How was it for you?
Megan Hine: Oh, it was, it was brilliant.
It was a really, it was a great experience.
And yeah, I'd love to hear your, your side of it as well.
Cause I, our paths didn't quite cross, uh, in the fields.
But yeah, for me it was the, cause I was actually on screen, um, on this one.
Um, in, yeah, you know, in a role of, uh, what, head of extraction.
So going in to rescue people out of the terrain, um, when
things happen, which was.
I'm usually behind the scenes and I'm usually involved like right from the very
start and all the setup and all the pieces of the puzzle and things coming together.
So I arrived when the puzzle was pretty much fully formed.
So it was quite unusual experience for me.
Whereas I think for yourself, you were involved right at
the very start, weren't you?
Travis Bader: Well, yes.
At the, at an earlier point, I got a phone call from, um, well, actually
it was Nikki, Nikki van Schindel.
And she's the past, yes.
Yeah.
She's amazing.
Yeah, she, uh, she was one of my earlier guests here on the podcast
and, uh, she and I, uh, have a lot in common, same favorite childhood book.
And, uh, I actually had a copy of it in here with her when,
uh, when she came in to chat.
Um, but she says, Trav, you know, we got this show.
And there might be some hunting on here and the people they're from California and
they don't know the rules and the laws.
Can you, can you kind of point them in the right direction?
I said, sure, no problem.
So I introduced them to some of my contacts in government and the
people who they need to talk to and they come to me and they say, well,
you know, I think we need to get all of our contestants licensed.
Okay, sure.
That's something we do.
Yeah.
We can put a course on for you.
Not a problem, but, but there's, there's a catch, uh, the.
They got to come in one at a time.
They can't see each other.
They can't do it in a group.
I'm like, Holy crow.
This is going to make things interesting.
So I said, tell you what, in the interest of expediency and in the interest of
getting this, uh, done free, you know, why don't they do BC's online course, which.
My company made, uh, why don't you do BCs online course, and then we'll
go through one at a time and they can challenge a test afterwards
and they would take them down.
Some of them blindfolded, some of them they're taken through the hallways.
And yeah, that, that was a different experience because when you're
talking to these people, of course.
The, uh, production company doesn't tell me anything.
They won't tell me the name of the show.
They were not allowed to say anything to the contestants.
And so the contestants are coming in and they're saying things to
me like, oh, when my dad comes through, you're going to like him.
I'm like, I don't see your dad on the list here, but okay, like I'm
trying to piece things together.
Finally, I just gave in and I called up a buddy of mine who works in transport.
And I said, what show am I working on?
What's going on?
And he knew everything.
So, uh,
Megan Hine: They're mad.
These like, these big shows are absolutely crazy because there's
so many facets that, um, that go into making up a show like this.
Um, and it's like, I think like the viewer doesn't always appreciate
actually just the logistics and all the permitting and things that go into it.
Um, I, cause I've been working in the industry now for almost 20 years
and it's, it's changed so much.
It's like when I first started.
Like, it was, like, kind of full on, like, cowboy style, like, you go in there, you
did whatever you wanted, like, permits and things weren't such a big issue,
budgets were bigger, time frames were longer, um, and it was just, you'd just
go out into these environments and just have a laugh and just figure it out on
the fly and kind of wing it, whereas, like, now, like, every single aspect of
it, like, you're saying, like, from the hunting through to the technology, uh,
through every single aspect of it is just so, so well thought out, So prepared.
And it's just insane that you get these large numbers of
people that come together.
Cause I think on this show, there was like over 300 people involved.
Um, you get all these people that come together and they're like, never met.
A lot of them never met before, never worked together, come, come together,
make this magic and then disappear off again, never to come back together.
Well,
Travis Bader: I look at, I'm like, I don't know how you guys are going to do this.
I'm listening behind the scenes.
You're like, oh, we have to do swim testing.
They're going to be out of the lake and they got to do, and all
these different testing features.
And they have to take them one at a time, test them
individually, have the oversight.
I'm like, I don't know if you're going to be able to pull this off in time, but
it'll be interesting to see what you do.
And sure enough, they do.
And it all comes together in the end.
Megan Hine: Every single time it's like, I've been doing some really,
like doing some really big shows actually the past four or five years.
I used to do like a lot more expeditions, super remote, um, kind of very agile
shows, but somehow I ended up doing these like big adventure, uh, sort of.
Competition shows.
Um, and it's like every single one I've worked on, it's like, you kind of, you
come aboard and just like, there is absolutely no way that we're going to be
able to pull this off in like the weeks or the couple of months that we've got
here and every time, like we managed to do it, which doesn't really help our
case because it means that like the next time they're just like, no, so you pulled
it off, you don't need any more time.
You can have less time and less budget.
Oh, totally.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Typical union environment type mentality.
Right.
Um, so.
How did you get into this?
You've been doing this for over 20 years now.
How did, how did this all get rolling?
Megan Hine: Uh, so I, I guess going back to like childhood and, um, my dad,
um, was, was originally a geologist and did a lot of expeditions, um, this
way, way before I was born, um, did a lot of expeditions, loved rocks.
So all our family holidays, uh, were to go and look at rocks,
get up close and personal.
Um, he did a lot of climbing, so we did a lot of climbing, so it was like touching
the rocks, digging the rocks out, hunting for fossils, going out, um, camping,
um, with my parents and out in the mountains, like typically around the UK.
I'm British, I'm from North Wales, um, and so a lot of our family holidays
were into the mountains in the UK, um, and exploring, and I never knew that
there was a career outside of academia.
And I guess because I was the oldest of four, it was just assumed that I
would follow in my parents footsteps and go into teaching or doctoring
or something, get a proper job.
And it just it just kind of never never really happened.
I got I had a place to go into the military.
But I thought I'll take a year out after I finished school,
I had this place to go into.
officer training in the UK, um, I thought I'd take a year out and go,
uh, off to New Zealand, which is somewhere I'd always wanted to go to.
I think, similar to you and Nicky being inspired by a book, I was
inspired by this book called The Land of the Long White Cloud, which was
Travis Bader: given
Megan Hine: to me by my, um, by some cousins that lived in Australia,
and it was this beautiful book, illustrated book, of like Maori culture
and their mythology and folklore.
Um, and I just, like, I'd hide under the covers at night and read this book.
Um, and, I just, I just wanted to go to New Zealand.
So as soon as I could, um, I figured I was going to take a year out before going back
to the military and go to New Zealand, uh, end up on, working on South Island.
Stroke of fate, luck, in being in the right place at the right time, ended
up doing an apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival and, um, taking people
out into the, into the mountains.
Um, there, and I suddenly realized that there's actually, you
know, there's a career in this.
Um, so that's kind of where it all started.
Travis Bader: And then at some point you were working for a company and
they said, uh, we want, we want your help on a, uh, this little known
film set, this guy by the name of.
Mr.
Grylls,
Megan Hine: that was like, that was super random.
Like, cause I was, um, so I, when I came back from New Zealand,
um, I was, I, I decided I wasn't going to go into the military.
I actually ended up doing a degree in outdoor studies, um, which was basically
three years of climbing on a student loan.
And, um, it was, it was awesome.
It was so much fun.
I spent my second year actually out in the Czech Republic.
I did an exchange out there.
Travis Bader: Oh, I love it out there.
Megan Hine: Oh man, it's like, it's so wild, and uh, I was, I went out
with a friend of mine, we bought this like, really shitty old bus, and we
converted the back of it, and we're like, living in the back of this in
the middle of Prague, um, and we, there was like a language issue, and we,
they weren't really expecting us, they didn't really know what to do with us,
so we just fucked off to Austria and went mountaineering for, for months.
Beautiful!
Yeah, it was, it was amazing, it was such an amazing trip,
it was a very formative trip.
Um, I, like, we, towards, like, I ended up falling into, like, a big crevasse and
we had a bit of an epic, so we thought we should probably, at this point, go
back and actually do some studying.
So I went back, um, um, and ended up doing, uh, that's kind of, I
suppose, where my interest in, like, the psychology and philosophy of
why people go into the outdoors.
kind of came from, uh, because they do, although their, their physical side of
things, so like our outdoor adventure pursuit sort of side of lessons were
hardcore, like super fucking hardcore, um, in how they bring that on, uh, but
then on the flip side, they had this really beautiful, like, philosophy and
you'd sit down and you'd talk through why people would go into the outdoors
and the psychology behind it and our connection with the natural world.
Which was something I'd never really kind of thought about, uh, before.
Um, and then I came back to the UK and ended up, um, doing an
apprenticeship, a three year apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival.
Um, and I kind of picked up my, sort of, British mountaineering qualifications,
climbing qualifications as well.
Um, and I, I guess I was just in this really kind of unique Um, position that
I'd got this sort of random collection of qualifications and experience.
I'd started leading, um, expeditions out to the Himalaya.
This was like in my early twenties, um, as well.
And just this combination at some point I was working for a company
that had just taken on the consultancy for, Um, Bear Grylls Man vs.
Wild, like his, Bear Grylls original shows, the ones that made him really big.
And I think the first season, like, it had just been a bunch of guys having a
laugh out in the field and there was, like, stories of bear suits and Man vs.
Wild.
And all this stuff just like got out into the press because nobody
knew how big it was going to be.
Right.
Yeah.
So like, right, okay, second season we need to lock this down and we need to do
this properly so we'll bring in a team.
Um, so I was actually hired originally to, um, to rig the stunts.
So build, like, design and build the, the rigging challenges.
Uh, and I went along and joined the first show that I ever did was
the only ever urban show he did.
Right.
Oh, we're filming it.
Poland and Gdansk in the, the dockyard there, which was just nuts.
Um, and then I, I just kind of stuck, um, as part of the team, um, and was
part of his team, um, in between working on other shows and expeditions, um, you
know, for the next sort of 14 years.
Travis Bader: Well, you know, I, I met him a number of years ago and,
uh, what, what do you say to me?
He says, they should call me bear.
I'm six foot, 650 pounds, big, big beard standing beside him.
Like the TV makes, makes the perspective off, but he's a small guy, you know,
some of the toughest people I know are just these, these diminutive.
Small people, they can less injuries, less weight to, uh, to lug around.
And they just, and that mindset as well.
The mindset is huge for the toughness, but he says something about you.
He says, uh, uh, 99 percent of the people out there, you are
tougher than 99 percent of the.
Well, 99 percent of the men he knows, but 99 percent of the people are there.
You're tougher than that was kind of a neat compliment.
Megan Hine: That, that was an awesome, that was an awesome compliment.
Yeah.
That was, um, that was really cool.
And I think that's something like with bear is that he's very loyal to his team.
Um, and it's, that's how he and his shows have been so successful
because they're really agile shows.
So, you know, with the, when it got to the sort of.
the Running Wilds that we did and I, I did like six full seasons of the
Running Wilds, which is where uh, he's going out and he's accompanied by,
you know, usually a major celebrity or politician, um, as a guest.
Um, and you know, there's all this stuff about it being fake and
all of this, and like, it isn't.
It's like, you know, we genuinely, at the start of the day, Um, the cameras
switch on and they don't switch off until they're tucked up in their shelters.
Uh, and the journey's linear, so they're constantly moving through the environment.
The guest, you know, is genuinely on a journey with Bear.
Um, and as a crew, you know, we're having to adapt to that.
So, uh, often I'm, you know, attached to, I've got a camera operator attached to me.
I usually work with, like, the main camera operator.
So that I can then move my safety team around the terrain and I've got
a good visual on where everybody is, uh, and then we're, you know, we're,
we're moving through the terrain, uh, with, with him and his guest.
And it's, you know, it's very agile, very dynamic, very real
risks and, uh, super exciting.
Travis Bader: Well, one of the things I think appeals to the audience and
probably appeals, I'm going to put.
Myself out there and guess it probably appeals to you is the psychology of
the individuals when they go out into the wild and they have a formulaic
approach to the, uh, you know, uh, the Bear Grylls shows as they go through,
because it works where they take somebody out, they push their boundaries.
There's a shared adversity.
There's a time to debrief over a cup of tea.
And the insights that people share in these, these moments is, uh,
It's really, really cool there.
You talk about the psychology behind why people go outside.
Why do people go outside?
Megan Hine: Oh, well, I think that there's so many different
levels to this and layers to it.
Um, but on a very fundamental level, it's our natural habitat.
Um, I, I'm a true believer in the fact that we haven't evolved
to live in this modern world.
Like we.
have adapted.
We haven't necessarily evolved and we're incredible at adaptation.
Like, you know, that's what defines us as a species.
We're absolutely phenomenal at adapting to new environments,
new situations, new scenarios.
But it doesn't mean that we like it or our brains can cope with it.
Um, and we look around at the modern world around us and the fast pace it moves at.
And we look at our like primitive survival mechanisms that are built in
us to keep us safe, that are in all animals, um, you know, the limbic system,
that fight, flight, freeze response that like lives within our brain.
Um, and it's like, it's incredibly powerful.
Um, and its primary role is to keep us safe.
So it's constantly scanning the environment around
us, looking for threats.
Um, and that was.
at a time when, you know, we had predators, uh, like, say, two tigers
or bear that would have, you know, that would have been hunting us,
potentially, as we were quite vulnerable without our, like, uh, without any fur
and claws and big teeth and things.
Um, but then We've then created this modern world very, very fast,
and the brain, that part of the brain, that survival part of the
brain, can't differentiate between real versus perceived threat.
And you're seeing triggering posts on social media triggers us in the same way
as in the same flood of chemicals as if that saber toothed tiger was stalking us.
So I think for us actually just going back into into nature And I think
this is where social media, I'd be interested, you know, to hear your view
on this, but I think there's a social media move of like extreme adventuring,
like going up Everest, going to the South Pole, going on these like, like
massive expeditions, um, that, you know, it's the minority of people or
adventurers going and doing these things.
And there's a big push that that's what we should be doing on adventure, but that's
not where like the power of nature for healing, the therapeutic applications.
Come in, it was like literally going in your lunch break and sitting in the
local park or going for a walk in the woods with your kids and reconnecting,
uh, with this natural world around us.
That is very much a part of, of who we are.
Travis Bader: Yeah, I believe that.
I, and I guess the idea behind social media pushing these extreme adventures is.
That it has to show something that'll break a person out of their scroll,
scroll, scroll, something that'll be eye catching enough or adrenaline kind
of dopamine fixing enough so that they actually stop and they look at it.
But, you know, like for me going out in the wild, I, I
need to, I need to get outside.
I need to be just by water.
You talk about listening to the birds.
I am a big believer of listening to the birds, um, of just being present, uh,
every day, I try to find ways to deepen my connection with the natural environment.
And I find if I don't, because, you know, And I, I'm going to throw this back at you
because the world that we live in, having to post stuff on social media, having to
work, you work in these Hollywood realms with people who are a lot of type A
personalities, a lot of, a lot of energy.
Uh, a lot of people who may have never really spent much time in the outdoors.
Um, I, I find that it can be rather.
Because if your external environment doesn't match your internal
environment, um, there's going to be stress associated with that.
Megan Hine: Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think, cause we, I mean, it's a good point, you know, you make about this, the
ever, the, or the feeling to ever need to be upping our social media game or
upping the way that we present ourselves.
And I think, you know, this is where actually having been a part of.
this evolution of, um, adventure filmmaking to the
point of where it is now.
Um, having watched that journey and actually sometimes I wonder if what
we've done is actually not that positive because we, you know, the
media needs to sensationalize thing to, as you say, you know, to grab people's
attention, you need to sensationalize stuff and you know, what we're doing.
When I'm putting together a, um, like a journey for, for, for a TV show, looking
for locations, looking for stories, we're looking to trigger emotions in people
because that's what gets people hooked.
And it is far easier to trigger fear and anxiety in people
than it is joy and happiness.
because of that primitive survival mechanism, it's so easy to trigger that
and to, you know, to make people feel, uh, fear or anxiety or to empathize
with what that person or character on screen is going through, than it is to,
to trigger sort of joy and happiness in, in other people, which is really sad.
It's like, what?
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Um,
Megan Hine: yeah.
So this is, and this is, and this is like, you know, Even myself, I find
myself, um, you know, you do do the doom scrolling and you're stuck in this like,
um, social media hole, uh, and you forget.
And it's like even working in the industry and knowing how manipulative
it is and knowing how, you know, much sort of Research goes in, into creating
addictive, uh, actions goes into it.
It's even then it's like you get caught into this because our
brains just, you know, respond.
Yeah, it's scary.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Well, what, what do you do to keep yourself centered?
Like you've talked about burnout before, what do you do to deal with.
Burnout to deal with, uh, every day stresses.
I mean, you're, you're dealing in high risk environments.
There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of energy coming in.
What do you do to help, uh, work this through if you can't get outside or if
you can get outside, what's your secret?
Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean, it's a really, it's a really good question.
And, um, just pre COVID actually, because I think for me personally, like COVID
came at a good time, like all this kind of lockdown, personally, because leading up
to I'd just been diagnosed with burnout.
Um, and I think because I'd spent, uh, sort of over a decade, really full time
on out on the road, um, At the time, um, myself, my partner, we'd, we'd
been together for a, for a long time.
We were doing the same work.
Um, so we didn't really need to go home and reconnect at home.
So we were just constantly on the road for sort of 10, 11 months of the year.
Um, constantly bouncing time zones, environments, you know, just before COVID,
you know, managing projects in the jungle.
And, uh, you know, so I'd have a job going in South America, job going in China.
bouncing between those time zones, typically cruise, international cruise.
So you're on like zoom calls, your meetings, all hours of the day and night,
um, and managing multiple projects.
And these are all quite high risk, high stress, um, jobs with an inherent risk.
You know, when you're out working in these environments with a lot of moving
parts of helicopters and boats and people, um, to be switched on all the time.
Um, and then, you know, and then inevitably there's like the level of.
a sort of a layer of politics as well that gets involved as soon as you start
dealing with sort of mega celebrities.
Yes.
Um, and that for me is like the, the straw that breaks the, the back.
Travis Bader: Yes.
Megan Hine: It's too, too complex for my brain to, to want to deal with.
And I just want to do my job.
Um, so yeah, just pre COVID, I think it was.
It's just accumulation of many, many, many years and not really
understanding the need to rest.
And also, you know, the fear when you're a freelancer, I'm working in
these environments as much as, you know, I'm addicted to it, love it.
And that was what was driving me.
There's also this underlying fear of, you know, if you take your foot
off the pedal, is somebody else going to get in there and take over?
Travis Bader: Right.
Right.
Megan Hine: Um, so yeah, so I, yeah, so was diagnosed with burnout and I,
around this time, I actually started wearing, um, a WHOOP device, like a,
a wear, like when you wearables, yeah, sort of measuring, um, you know, what's
ticking on long underneath the surface and what's going on with my physiology.
Um, and my HRV, so my heart rate variability was insanely low.
So it was sitting like on average around 10,
Travis Bader: like,
Megan Hine: um, I know it is nuts cause I know, souped.
It's a really physical job because, uh, managing people, but also like rigging.
So it's like, you know, wandering, like going into the mountains every
day with like 20 kilogram, um, rigging bags and like, you know,
running around in these environments, like, you know, super physical.
Um, but my heart rate variability was insanely low and it's taken like four
or five years for it to get back up.
And actually when you see the numbers and you see just how
slow it is to come back up.
You know, I think that burnout is like burnout isn't talked about enough.
And unfortunately, those of us that are most likely prone to it, the
ones that are not going to listen to the advice anyway, because of course
it's never going to happen to me.
Travis Bader: Never.
Well, what does a burnout diagnosis look like?
Like, I, I don't know too many people who would be able to recognize that
in themselves if they have burnout.
What does it look like?
Yeah,
Megan Hine: it's, it's really hard to, uh, because it's so insidious.
It comes on so slowly, like it kind of creeps onto you.
Um, and it can, it starts off usually with, you know, feeling quite tired,
um, and just feeling like you can't, yeah, you're just kind of hanging
in there, like you're surviving.
Um, and it's like you're able to function and it's like,
you just kind of keep going.
It's almost, you're on autopilot.
It's like a really weird feeling.
Um, and I think what was.
What triggered me to kind of go and get, go and talk to, uh, a medical, uh,
professional, a doctor, um, was that I spent three months out in Norway, um,
on a job, and I, I came off the back of it, and I was like, I actually can't
remember, like, anything about this shoot.
Like, I've literally just come off this shoot, and I cannot remember.
Yeah, and it was just like, I am, I'm, am I going mad?
Like, what the heck?
Like, this is insane.
Like, so, um, yeah, so I went to speak to a doctor and, um, I was quite emotional at
the time, um, around it as well, and just, you just kind of, like, you feel like
you You're losing your shit, like, it's kind of, like, things are unravelling,
um, and you don't know why, and there's no sort of rhyme or reason, um, but then
when you, like, look at the pattern and, like, how long, you know, the behaviours
and things, and, you know, I think, I don't think we appreciate, like, the
effects of time zone, um, travel and,
Travis Bader: I could see that.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
Um, so all, all of that, I think kind of led, led to it and yeah, just feeling,
definitely just feeling out, out of sorts.
Well, just
Travis Bader: prior to COVID, so that'd be around September 20, 2019.
You had a post on social media that says in the end, we only regret the
chances we didn't take the relationships.
We were too afraid to embark on and the decisions we waited too long to make.
Megan Hine: Yes.
It's funny to see when you read social media and like hindsight and just
like, yeah, I tried to read any other tech, like messages from that period,
Travis Bader: especially if you couldn't remember something after doing a show in
Norway, you'd get, get back from that.
Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean that was, that was quite scary actually, it was like
coming out of the back of that and just being like, people asking you questions
about it and just being like, I, I actually don't remember any of this,
like this is really, really bizarre.
Um, yeah, so I think COVID came at a good point, uh, time for me,
otherwise I, I think I would have found it very hard to stop, um.
So yeah, it was just good to, good to recuperate and during that,
over that period of time, kind of realizing how unhealthy, like the
working schedule that I had was.
Travis Bader: So you've been vocal about ADD.
You've got ADD.
At a young age, grade three, I was diagnosed with severe ADHD.
I was medicated.
Uh, I was on an experimental run in the province of BC for the highest dosage of,
uh, Ritalin being prescribed to someone.
They just kept upping it more and more just to see what the effects
would be like and what it would do until I finally took myself off cold
Turkey at the end of grade seven.
I said, I didn't want to go to high school taking these smart pills
as other people would call them.
And, uh,
I gotta imagine that the A-D-D-A-D-H-D is gonna play a
role in this burnout as well too.
Megan Hine: Yeah, absolutely.
No, it really, it really does.
Um, and for me, the diagnosis of a DD actually came, um, more recently.
Um, so that was maybe four years ago.
Yes, it wasn't that that wasn't that long ago.
And this is what's really interesting because I've done, I've done a lot
of reading, um, since that, uh, and understanding, uh, that how there's so
many women that I suppose sort of get to sort of my age and get diagnosed either
because their children have been diagnosed with it and they recognize the symptoms.
symptoms in their child and themselves, um, or they've, you know, or they've,
the information's percolated into them to be like, Oh, light bulb moment.
Um, I think for a lot of, for a lot of girls, um, ADHD, ADD
presents differently to, to boys.
Uh, whereas boys tend to.
externalize, um, the symptoms, not always this adrenalization, but tend to, um,
externalize in that kind of not being able to sit still, that fidgeting, maybe
being seen as a bit naughty, uh, in class.
Whereas like for girls, often it tends to internalize, um, and
manifests as depression, anxiety.
Um, the focus is very internal and like this internal narrative, um, that
yeah, can lead to depressive thoughts.
Um, for me, when I look back on it, it's like in school, it's like I used to just
skip, skip classes to go mountain biking.
Um, and I could, I could really, I really struggled to sit still
and I couldn't understand why.
Cause it wasn't like I wasn't achieving, like the grades were, my grades were
okay, but I just couldn't sit still.
I couldn't focus.
I'd be within four walls.
I'd just be so anxious.
It's like this feeling in my chest of like panic and need to be, need
to be moving, need to be escaping.
And I'd play up, um, and get sent out of classes.
Um, and yeah, I can relate to
Travis Bader: that.
Megan Hine: Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it?
It's just like, we're just not designed to sit still like that.
Travis Bader: Well, it's, it's horrible when you're forced to be in an environment
that you're not designed to be in, like you say, that's the horrible part.
When you look at yourself and you say, there's something wrong with me.
Why can't I concentrate?
Why can't I study?
I remember in grade four, I had a teacher who.
I took a different approach with me and he says, well, you like
puzzles and you like games here.
Do puzzles.
You like chemistry, bring in your chemistry.
He said, and I was teaching at my college level chemistry books.
And for me, chemistry was making disappearing ink or making things blow up.
I mean, that was, if it does something that you can see
an exact result out of that.
That's exciting.
Right.
And I got straight A's in grade four, by grade seven, I got straight F's.
So my teacher said, took me aside at the end of the year.
And I look him at my rec.
Port guard, it says pass, but the grades didn't come up enough from straight
F's to, to really make sense to me.
Like, is this a pass?
Is this not a pass?
And she says, well, technically it's not a pass, but I don't want to see
you back in the classroom again.
I think you're going to get more out of high school than I'm ever
going to be able to give you.
You're going.
So, um, and you know, growing up, I always looked at, uh, ADHD as.
As a male thing, because all of the literature, the doctors are
like, Oh, girls don't get ADHD, which isn't, which is ludicrous.
Like what, why would girls not get it?
And I, I didn't realize how it presents in girls is more, um, internalized.
Yeah,
Megan Hine: well it's interesting because it's that same, if you think about like
the same energy that, uh, like a little boy is going to be putting out into
the world with ADHD, that same energy for a girl is typically put inside.
And where else is it going to go into like these kind of, Weird thought
patterns or unhealthy thought patterns.
Travis Bader: So you've got, you've got a background in psychology.
Um, if I were to put on my pseudo psychologist hat, having zero background
in psychology, um, I'm wondering if perhaps your desire to be outside
and be in these extreme environments.
Was an attempt at being present because when you're thinking about where your
next hand holder foothold is going to be on the rock, when you're thinking
about when you're rafting down the river, like where's, where's the hole,
where's, where's the, uh, the strainers and the keepers and your head is
right there in the moment, it allows your external environment to kind of
maybe match your internal environment.
Is that, uh, is that an accurate assessment?
Megan Hine: I think that's a very accurate assessment.
But I think there's two parts of it.
I think you're right in that it is, uh, finding the present, but
it was also in a running away.
It's like, I've made a career about of running away and it's like running
away from that, those, that anxiety.
Cause it's like, if you can pedal fast enough or push yourself hard enough,
you can out like outrun the anxiety.
Um, and then, yeah, the climbing, the rock climbing, um, for me, like, I
actually wrote, when I was at university, I actually wrote my dissertation
on, uh, flow in rock climbers.
And it's like where you find, I'm sure a lot of like people,
outdoors, um, folk who have had this experience at some time or another.
for those, for some of you may be super lucky to experience it a lot,
but it's this kind of moment where it's almost like you're not thinking.
Your body and mind are so connected and it's like you're flowing up
the rock face or you're flowing through the, along the trails.
If you're running, I'd imagine it's something that you experienced
a lot when hunting as well.
Um, and you're just so in tune with the environment.
It's the most beautiful thing to, to, to be.
And it's just the ultimate.
being present.
And that for me, and like the rock climbing, um, it
was just, it was beautiful.
And I was, I suppose I was chasing that, um, as well as the, you know, the running
away from anxiety or, you know, emotions that I didn't have the toolkit to be able
to deal with, um, when I was younger.
Travis Bader: When I was younger, my parents said they didn't
think I'd live past 10 years old.
And then they said, well, you made it a 10, maybe 12, 12, maybe 18.
Now you're an adult.
Well, maybe, maybe you're going to make it right.
And because I was, I was just bouncing off the walls everywhere and I was
always doing things that were putting.
Myself in physical risk.
And, you know, I almost died a number of times and through my teenage
years and early twenties, almost drowned three different occasions.
I've almost drowned.
Um, and the one thing I found though, was you never truly feel as alive
as when you almost die, right?
When, when, when you're on that edge and it's like, it could go this way, it could
go that way and you get through and you're riding this high and you feel great.
But it can cause you to keep pushing more and more for those environments.
It's kind of like, and I liken it to a cliff jumping.
Okay.
So I jumped off from this height.
Can I go higher?
Okay.
Now I've done it for here.
Can I go higher?
Like at what point do we stop?
And I'm wondering, so you had quite the experience in that crevasse, uh, that was
a, uh, life threatening situation, was it?
Megan Hine: Um, yeah, that, that one was, that was, um, yeah, that was kind
of what prompted us to go back, uh, to university and do some, do some studying.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I totally, totally agree with you.
Uh, with that, I think, and whether that's an ADD, ADHD thing, or whether
it's a personality type, or childhood experiences, or, you know, whatever it
might be, there is, um, you know, for, for many of us, there is that feeling of
feeling alive when you're confronted, or when the consequences are, um, so strong.
And this is going back to, you know, what we were talking about earlier, about
like that fight flight freeze response, and the stress response, and whether
we've evolved to live as we do now.
Um, you know, there's so, so few times really in the modern world, in the
western world, where, um, we have to take responsibility, um, for our own actions.
It's very easy.
There's a blame culture.
Um, you know, you see that in like the suing culture and things.
Yeah, and constantly.
Passing the buck onto somebody else.
Whereas, you know, when you go out into the outdoors, whether you're
hunting, whether you're running, whether you're climbing, you have
to take ownership of your actions.
Um, and that responsibility, uh, is really empowering.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think that's where a lot of this comes down to as well as
you actually feel alive because you actually have to engage in your life.
Travis Bader: I agree.
Do you, do you hunt?
Megan Hine: Um, I spearfish.
I would love to hunt.
I live in the uk.
I love
Travis Bader: spearfishing.
Megan Hine: I love it.
Yeah, that's my, that's my mindfulness.
Like, yeah.
So I live on the coast in North Wales.
Uh, yeah, it's yeah.
Often, often out here.
Travis Bader: And you spear fish out in North Wales.
Megan Hine: Yep.
Yeah.
I got my bass and yeah, mullet.
That
Travis Bader: is so cool.
Yeah.
I, um.
I recently learned that if I put a little bit of silicone on my mask and
create a seal for my, uh, my beard mustache here, and I can actually,
used to be, I just shave it all off.
Anytime I went into the South Pacific or places I want to spearfish
and I will just take a, um, I'll find a chunk of bamboo and some
surgical tubing and some paracord.
And maybe I, if I'm able to find a stinger head or travel with a little
stinger head, I'll wrap that on there.
And I, and I use a, like a Hawaiian sling I'll make up.
Are you using a spear gun or like a sling or?
Megan Hine: Yeah, I do have a Hawaiian sling.
I don't tend to use it here.
Um, but I, because I work quite a lot of Panama at the moment.
Um, so I take a Hawaiian sling that I take packs down and I take that with me.
Um, but I do, I've got a spear gun.
I usually go out with a spear gun here.
Travis Bader: I find for me, the.
Like growing up, I always wanted to hunt and I didn't really get out.
I spent a lot of time outdoors.
We had a commercial fly fishing lodge in an area just past Kamloops up in, uh,
here in British Columbia, and it was a hike in or fly in only sort of thing.
So you could get a helicopter in and there's about 5, 000 elevations.
So you could land a float plane, but there's speculation whether you.
At that altitude, you could take off again, or you're hiking all your gear in.
So as a kid, I would, I would, I'm going to do air brackets, I would
hunt and I had no idea about what was allowed or not, but you know, squirrels
and grouse and stuff like this.
Um, but the.
The ability to be present and all the little things that come in and how the
animals interact with the flora and, and each other just becomes a study.
I find when I'm out there, what's growing.
Uh, do we see.
Do we see spruce tips kind of coming out here?
Okay.
So that tells me an idea as to where my elevation is.
And it gives me an idea as to what kind of animals are going
to be out this time of the year.
And for me, it's, it's not about the actual act of harvesting
the animal that just happens to put some food in the freezer.
But it's all of that time up preparing for the hunt, uh, packing, getting
everything together, training ahead of time, then, then being
outside and trying to as quickly as possible become one with nature.
For me, that's what hunting's about.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
I'm so jealous of Canadians and your amazing wilderness.
You've got the most amazing backyard to go and play in.
Uh, but I, I, I totally agree with you about that.
When you're in spearfishing, it's exactly.
what it is.
Um, that, cause it's, you've got this one breath to go down and understand
the animal behavior, have a look, you know, see any idea, any idea, any signs,
um, in the environments of, you know, of the fish that you're looking for.
Um, and yeah, it's, it's just magic.
And it's just that, that feeling.
Um, Yeah, but yeah, like, like you, it's not, it's not about shooting
the animal, that's not for me, that's not, that's actually, I
find that incredibly difficult, um, which I'm glad about actually,
because then you have the respect for where your food comes from, um.
Travis Bader: Huge.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
But the, as you say, like the lead up to it is just, it's just incredible.
It's something really primal.
It's what we've been programmed for.
Travis Bader: It is.
And you know, if I'm going to eat meat, I should be able to square
myself with the idea that at some point the animal has to die.
And if I.
Put that onto a third party.
And I kind of divorced myself from the concept of, of where that food comes from.
I find there's a much more intimate connection when I sit around the
table with my family and we're eating a meal and we're talking about the
time that we spent together outdoors.
I mean, it's, uh, um, it's a very, very close connection that I find that whole
close circle with the natural environment.
I'm curious as to your thoughts on medication for something like ADD, ADHD.
Megan Hine: Yeah, that's really interesting, um, thought actually,
cause this is something that, excuse me, this I've been thinking about
actually a lot recently, because I guess.
I suppose like 18 months ago, I kind of, I made more of a shift into focusing
on building up my company, um, and developing show ideas and projects.
There's a couple of projects that we've got that are in development, um, at the
moment, which are really, really exciting.
And oh my gosh, if like one of them comes off, it's going to be insane.
Uh, I'm just really excited.
I feel very passionate about these things, but, um, the problem I have that I've
never experienced before, and I think you mentioned like the ADHD is like a
superpower and I completely agree with this because it's, it's allowed me to do
my job and it's like in a field where, you know, there are so many moving
parts like all the time when, when we're working, when we're filming and it's
like all the different aspects and it.
That my role covers, uh, and I'm involved in every department.
I'm, I know what's happening where, where everybody is.
Uh, and my brain works so well like that when I've got this big
overview, um, of what's happening.
But when I've been trying to, more recently, been foc trying to focus
on sitting behind my computer and creating spreadsheets and things.
Ah, yeah.
And I, like, it is It is a horrible feeling because it's just this like,
again, it's going back to that sort of childhood sitting in between four walls
and this sheer panic that starts arising and just like trying to like keep myself
here and it's like, I just want to go.
Um, so I'm trying to figure the best balance of, of that
to try to actually figure out.
And that's where I was actually.
Would be interested to take medication just to see how it
works and how it interacts.
I'm fascinated.
I don't like the idea of it being long term, but I'd just be intrigued
to see if it makes a difference.
Travis Bader: I think that's the, the issue with medication is a
lot of them are these long term.
Uh, I'm going to go air brackets again, solutions.
And when you talk about spreadsheets for me, chat GPT has been amazing for
helping get the rough work basically done and getting things together.
If I, um, throw these things in, that's, I think for somebody with
ADHD, it's a, it's a huge creativity.
Booster, um, because then actually see the steps through to the next, next point.
But, you know, people ask me, they say, well, what do you think my kid's
got ADD or my kid's been diagnosed with ADHD or whatever it might be.
Um, what are your thoughts on medication?
And just all I can speak from is my experience with the
medications that they put me on.
And I would say, why are we trying to medicate somebody to be able to
fit in a certain environment, as opposed to finding that environment
that they can thrive in unmedicated.
And I know that's not always going to be possible if we want
to be in a functional society.
If you want to be able to get along with other people, maybe the meds can
be a helpful thing, but I, I've always, I always tell people to approach it
with a great deal of caution because once you're on these things, a lot
of times, uh, the pros will say, well, you can't just come off of it.
We have to wean you off, or you can put you onto something else,
or maybe you're onto it for life.
And I would much rather.
Find an environment that I can thrive in with whatever it is that my mindset
is, or my makeup is, then to force myself to adapt to one that I'm, I'm
not inclined to, to fit in with that, that, that would be my thoughts.
It might be a little controversial for some, especially for those who, uh,
um, look at medication as a savior.
And I get it.
If a person is going through a moment of crisis, maybe this
is the right solution for them.
But by and large, I say exercise and diet and your environment and your
circle of friends and the goals that you have for yourself, all of these things,
the hard work things of actually being disciplined and, and moving towards the
progressive realization of a worthy ideal would be, um, better than medication.
Megan Hine: I know there's super sound advice and I think it's, I guess it's.
This is why a podcast like this is so powerful, uh, because to be able to,
for you to be able to talk about your experiences and share it with a wider
audience, for people to understand that there may be other options, and that
actually just because you have ADHD or you have whatever it might be, doesn't
mean that you can't be successful in your career, um, or find change.
Yeah, it finds your home, um, out there.
I think, I think you're right.
I, I think it's sad.
I, I see it a lot on, um, like when I used to do a lot more expeditions of
people coming along with, um, anxiety and depression and being on medications
for that and choosing to, to come off of it on these expeditions, not
under my, to your medical providers.
But, uh, they were making the decision to come off of it and actually just
being in that environment and connecting with people because a huge part of the
issue with our society at the moment is that, you know, we don't physically
need to interact with anybody ever.
And we've got online ordering.
You know, we don't actually have to go out.
Um, so much of our world is set up in competition with each other.
Travis Bader: Whereas,
Megan Hine: you know, we, when you see, you know, work with indigenous cultures
or see how they're, they operate is very much as a family unit, units that
would go around to help each other out, raise children together, patch
up shelters together, forage together.
Um.
All of these things were communal activities that we, we've lost that.
Um, we, there's so few of us now actually live near our, near
our parents, have that support.
Um, our grandparents become very isolated.
Uh, and I think this is a huge part of this.
It's just like this lack of human connection and, um, working together
as, you know, as tribal units.
Travis Bader: Have you seen that Harvard study that would span over
80 years and it looked at, right.
I, what did it say?
They were looking at happiness and what makes people happy.
What do they say?
Megan Hine: Yeah.
Well, the human connection being with other people.
That's it, the
Travis Bader: number, the number one indicator for what, if somebody will be
happy or not is strong social connections.
Having a good friend group, having a good family group, like across all
cultures, across all areas of the world.
And that is the number one.
Indicator that a personal report, feelings of contentment and happiness is if they
have those strong social connections.
Yeah, it's really
Megan Hine: interesting, like seeing that with like the, um, uh, it was a
study done on it's like, you know, what made people more likely to survive in,
they typically were looking at like wilderness survival, um, situations, but
it was like, what would make somebody more likely to survive a situation.
And one of the, there were sort of two main factors.
to this, but one of them was, um, that connection, although they, the
family or friends or whoever it might be, may not physically be with them.
Um, and they may not have any contact with them, but just knowing that they've got
this amazing support network behind them, um, was enough to help keep people alive.
Um, and the other part of that was like a sense of purpose, um, found
in, you know, potentially in routine.
Uh, but it is interesting, isn't it?
So we are designed, I think this way.
When we look at, like, COVID and it's like, there's so many, we're still
here in the UK still dealing with the fallout, um, of the sort of mental health
fallout from the lockdown that we were experiencing, people being isolated, and
there was all this argument about, you know, well, our grandparents went to war
and, you know, all of this, and it's like, well, surely they had it worse, like,
why are we dealing with such a, such a big mental health issue at the moment?
But a huge part of that comes down to the isolation.
Yeah.
You know, yes, it might sound great that you can sit and watch Netflix all day,
but it's far more important to actually physically interact, be with people, um,
and, and yeah, and, and talk to people.
Travis Bader: I remember as a kid, I was reading, I think it was a national
geographic or a popular mechanics.
I think maybe it was a popular mechanics and it was an older
magazine that was talking about the psychology of survival and it likened.
Um, the, the paradox that when they're looking at people in, uh,
world war two, and let's say, I think the example was used was a shipwreck
and they're surviving on at sea.
And by and large, they figured that all of these young.
Soldiers would be the ones that would out survive the older ones.
But the inverse actually turned out to be true.
It was the older ones who looked at the situation and said, well, my first
divorce was harder than this, right.
And, or whatever it might be, they have these learned experiences
and they've got a mindset where they're, I guess, tougher, um, Yeah.
I, I find it really, really interesting, um, mental health and mindset
and how that plays into survival.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
Have you, have you read the book, um, by Joseph Frankel,
um, Man's Search for Meaning?
Travis Bader: The one thing you can't take from me is the way I choose to
respond to what you do to me, the last of life's great freedoms is
one's ability to choose their own.
Attitude in any given circumstance.
It's, it's,
Megan Hine: it's incredible for anybody who doesn't, hasn't come across this book.
It he's, um, a psychiatrist that was, uh, it was in Auschwitz
and, uh, he used that time to.
Be able to study fellow, uh, prisoners, um, that were in there.
Uh, and he writes his book, you know, from a situation that seems so
hopeless and what mankind took out of that situation and how they survived.
Um, it just, it's incredibly emotional, um, but absolutely mind blowing of
just how resilient we are as a species.
Travis Bader: Oh, I just find it so crazy and how well that book is written.
How well he's been put it together and how he's able to take an objective view.
And he'll admittedly say, I'm trying to be objective here, but I live through this.
And I realized that there's going to be times with these
things kind of bleed through.
He would look at people who are all in the exact circumstance and
they're all in the exact situation.
And some people are.
Have just given up all hope while other people, while they might not be in the
best of spirits, maybe they can crack a smile and maybe they can tell a joke.
Why what's the difference between one person and the other, and
what he boiled it all down to was their ability to choose their own
attitude in any given circumstance.
And for me, that has been key.
Hugely powerful that my attitude is a choice.
If I can wake up grumpy, then I can wake up happy too.
Like that's my choice.
Right.
So yeah, that, that is, that's a very good book.
Is that one that you, uh, read through your, your studies?
Megan Hine: Yes.
Yeah, it was, um, it was, I just found it.
I found it fascinating because I was.
Consumed by the, that question of like, why do some people walk
out of a survival situation and almost thrive in that situation?
Whereas others don't walk out.
And oftentimes it's the people that you, that society would least
expect to survive, um, that do.
And it's like, well, what's, what's the difference?
You know, how come are there at least like young children walking
out of jungle survival experiences?
Um, Yeah.
What's the difference here, uh, between, you know, wouldn't think about like a
plane crash between other passengers that may have survived that plane crash.
Why did they not walk out as well?
Um, it's just, I find it absolutely fascinating and yeah.
And sort of how you build resilience, uh, in people, um, without breaking them.
Travis Bader: When you're working on these sets and you're rigging,
do you ever find the psychology side start coming through as well?
Where you're having to deal with different people who you might have to give a pep
talk to, or put things in perspective to, and if so, do you have examples?
Megan Hine: Yes.
Yeah.
Um, so, so on some of the, um, on some of the running wilds, actually like
these, the shows that it was working on, it was like, I wasn't actually
allowed to interact with, um, some of the participants on it because it would,
cause they don't, they'd be looking for me cause there was something.
But it's like, they'd say that if we see, if we know you, if you know that you're
there and because you're such a calming presence, that we know that we're safe.
And it's like, well, that's not the, that's not what the
producers want out of it.
They
Travis Bader: want you to feel on the edge.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
They want you to be shooting yourself.
So, um, yeah, but, but definitely, I mean, you just like, you don't know.
And it's like with the running wilds as well, like with those ones, it's like
you're, you're taking people out of.
Yes, they might be mega celebrities or major faces of politics, but
you're taking them out of their everyday life, and you're thrusting
them straight into this environment.
They've been picked up by helicopter, they've been chucked
out into the environment.
Typically, there's a very short walk and then they're into a rappel or into
white water or whatever it might be.
Um, and it's like, you know, these, these are people who are like, are not
allowed to do their own stunts usually because it's too expensive to insure them.
They've handed over the responsibility for their life and they're
in this crazy ass situation.
They've got no idea what's coming next.
Um, and I have got a huge respect for that.
And it's like, it's like people going on expeditions as well.
You know, the clients that sign up, um, to go on trips.
Um, and.
I think going on an expedition with clients, I try to do one or two a
year, um, around, fitted in around the TV work, just because it's a
completely different experience.
Um, and I see it as just this, it's just the most amazing, um, thing to be
able to accompany people on a journey.
Which they did, they don't know whether they're physically and mentally capable of
and seeing them achieve and actually being part of that, that roller coaster, um,
of emotion and it's, it's just incredible and like just seeing what, what people
can achieve, like summits or jungle treks and survival situations and seeing them
come out the other side, just phenomenal.
Travis Bader: You know, I, growing up, I always had the mindset, I'm tough.
I can do this.
I'm tough.
I'll keep pushing.
I'm in pain.
I can push through.
I'm tough.
I can do it.
Right.
And I just, the mantra on my head, I can, I can, I can.
I'll just keep playing it through.
It doesn't matter how cold I am, how wet I am, how injured or how hurt I am.
I'll just keep going.
And I thought that was, you know, that's how you get tough.
And I remember a friend of mine, he, uh, first came back from the British army.
He's been on the podcast before Jason Bud and he's a.
Uh, mountain guide now, but, uh, we go out in the hills with him and, uh, you know,
we're going up, I don't want to complain.
My feet are, my feet are bleeding.
They got blisters.
And he's like, well, hold on a second.
Let's just stop.
Let's sit down.
Let's have a quick brew, have a brew up a cup of tea.
Right.
And, uh, let's administrate yourself is what he would say.
And that's something that, uh, it, it makes that mental game so much easier
when your body's in the, in a position where it's comfortable and relaxed.
And I would look at what I was able to accomplish with my tough
mindset, as opposed to what I was able to accomplish with the.
Okay.
If, if I, if I have something slipping on my pack, I stop,
I administrate, I get it on.
I'm hungry.
I sit down, I have some food, have a tea and I move on.
And all of a sudden we're traveling way further, covering way more
ground in a comfortable way than I ever was able to do with this.
I'm tough attitude.
Megan Hine: Do you think that's because you've got a feeling of more control
over that situation because you've now can stop and you can sort yourself out.
Travis Bader: You know, that's a good point.
And I never really looked at it from that perspective.
I always just looked at it as, you know, if I'm freezing and I'm cold,
but I'll just move faster, right.
As opposed to maybe I'll put a jacket on, right.
It's in my pack.
I'm carrying it anyways.
Right.
Maybe I just put this jacket on.
Megan Hine: Oh, we're all guilty of that though.
It's just like, keep going.
And then it's like, you know, half an hour later, you're just
like, well, that was stupid.
Travis Bader: Yeah, exactly.
But, but the mind, the mind will go to some dark places when you're right.
When, when you're out there and you're tired and you're cold and you're hungry.
Megan Hine: Tripping.
Travis Bader: Right.
And when I, you're stumbling over everything, having a
hard time keeping your feet.
And I find.
The second that I sit down and administrate myself, all of
a sudden, those dark clouds don't look quite as dark.
The end goal doesn't seem quite as daunting.
And so that.
That was my introduction into the mental role on the, uh, on the
physical survival and the physical, uh, Outcome and performance.
And I've become fascinated with that sense.
Nowhere near at the level where you're at, but this is why I
love having conversations with people like you, because I just
find it absolutely fascinating.
Megan Hine: Well, I think so the more conversations that you can
have, the more it's like you realize that, you know, our brains all do
kind of function in the same way.
And we all do the same daft things.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Travis Bader: I think so.
Um, is there anything that we haven't talked about that
we should be talking about?
Megan Hine: Hmm.
That's a good question.
Um, I think this is where like the ADHD brain comes in, cause
it just jumps all over the place.
Travis Bader: Oh, geez.
Oh, I got a whole bunch of places I can jump.
Megan Hine: Um, I don't know if he's covered, covered,
uh, some good ground there.
Travis Bader: Yeah, I do.
I do think we have, you know, there's also chatting about, um, uh, you, you working
with people in high risk environments, in trauma filled environments.
Is, does that, uh, form a large part of what you do?
Megan Hine: Oh, as in like resilience building?
Travis Bader: Yes.
Megan Hine: Yeah.
Um, yeah, we, we started doing a bit more of that.
Um, so yeah, so it was working with people and sort of helping build resilience.
That was something that, um, that I've been really interested in.
Uh, I'm an ambassador for the British Scout Organization.
Uh, and the program that they have.
running at the moment is what they call skills for life, which is recognizes that,
um, that resilience is built gradually.
Um, it's, I think for a long time, we've understood that resilience is grows
through hardship, but if you give somebody too much hardship, um, it can break them.
And actually that's when you end up with PTSD or CPTA PTSD.
Um, and.
So what we're trying to do with the younger people is to build up resilience
gradually, so encouraging them to expose themselves to lots of different new
environments and new situations, new skills, um, so it doesn't necessarily
mean going out and pushing yourself hard.
outdoors.
It's, you know, talking to people that you wouldn't normally communicate
with, um, different ages, different backgrounds, different cultures, etc.
Um, going into taking on new skills, um, and, and pushing yourself slowly
and building up that within, I suppose, within a safe, safe space.
Um, so I, a couple of years ago, was Start was asked to be involved in,
um, looking at resilience in anti poachers, uh, anti poaching units.
Um, and we built this program, um, this trial program, um, which is still running,
which is really, which is really awesome.
Um, where we went and spent time.
So they were doing a, like a.
a three month program, uh, these, uh, rangers from all over Africa came to,
together, um, and They were, they do this, sort of, train the trainer, they
train them, train the guys and then put them, give them back out into the field
and they go and train their troops.
Um, but this resilience program was just like, well, can we use the same
uh, sort of psychology as we do in the TV shows in crafting these stories to
again trigger that fear and anxiety to help them understand fear and anxiety and
stress and how that affects the system.
when they are working and living in an environment where they're not going to
have access to mental health support.
Travis Bader: Um,
Megan Hine: so we, we, we're looking at that and like exploring.
So we were exploring with them, like what fear anxiety is, what
stress is, uh, built a program of like, um, putting more and more.
Uh, stress onto them in a controlled environment, uh, and utilizing, for that
one, we were typically using height, um, when the exposure from that situation,
so, you know, rock climbing, we built a big via ferrata, which is like a big cable
system up cliffs, um, which they could move through, um, And sort of building
up that exposure and talking through it all at each point, uh, in the hope
that, and we're still seeing the results coming back, in the hope that if we're
running these, if we're running this and helping them understand, uh, what stress
is, what anxiety is, and the effects it has on the body and the mind, that, uh,
that they can actually learn to control it and have some sort of autonomy over
those, those emotions and the reactions.
Travis Bader: That's, you know, you raised a lot of, a number
of good points here growing up.
I thought it was Conan, the barbarian quote, but I later realized it
was a Nietzsche quote that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
Right.
Um, it's not true, right?
It's that which doesn't kill me doesn't necessarily make you stronger.
Unless you've got the ability to cope with it and to understand what
you went through and make that into a positive learning experience.
Because if you just keep piling on trauma and you keep piling on, uh,
hardships onto a person, eventually it's going to take its toll.
It's like filling up a bucket of water with all of this stuff.
We have to find a way to let that kind of come out or, or deal with it.
And you bring up the idea of stories.
I think that's pretty cool too.
I mean, and when they look at, um, when you, when you look at soldiers
coming back from war and, uh, PTSD, why are they experiencing PTSD?
Why does some soldiers in some wars have a higher.
Rate of PTSD.
And again, my Lehman approach, I don't have any background in this, but if I
were to look at it, I'd say maybe it's because of the stories that we tell
ourselves or that are being told about us.
Like you look at, um, PTSD after, uh, the Vietnam war, where they come.
Soldiers are coming back and the society's all against them.
Those social groups, which are integral to people feeling happy.
According to Harvard seemed all be against the individual.
The individual says, why did I go out there and do this?
Whereas in warrior cultures, when they come back from a similar war and they're
a lot, a lot of those heroes, and they're telling themselves a story, I'm a hero and
they could have done the exact same thing, but it's a story that we tell ourself,
I think that plays the integral role.
Megan Hine: Absolutely.
And, and also going back to the connection point, it's like, you
know, there's also the support systems behind, uh, people as well.
Because, you know, there is, there will be members of the military
that have gone into, into military service at a very young age to escape
domestic abuse, domestic violence.
Um, and it's, so it's, you know, our childhood narratives.
play into, into these and our ability to be able to cope in situations of stress,
um, and whether those, our systems have become overloaded and whether it's,
you know, sometimes situations that we might be faced with are we get triggered
because we were triggered, you know, because we experienced this and these
situations when we were, when we were younger and like our formative years.
You know, up to like sort of the age of seven, really.
Um, and it's like, you know, it's really, that, that, that is such a sensitive time
for us, um, in our human development.
Um, and it's where our brains are, our minds are like acting like
sponges and soaking up and basically programming us and programming our
reactions for the rest of our lives.
Which is why when I'm dealing with people that are getting triggered
and angry, about a certain situation.
It's like, it's important to kind of take a breath and recognize the fact that
you're actually dealing with a toddler, because their reactions to whatever
the situation is, is being, they're probably being triggered as they were
when they were a child, because that's how, when they got programmed to react.
And actually Trying to switch off your own reaction because it's very easy isn't
it when somebody's having a go at you and you know It's like it's not your fault.
You're just like the fuck Like oh fuck off and I get and then the situation and
then you're both acting in this kind of place of fight flight response, um, and
it's like, you know, logic and reasoning is out the window and we can't achieve,
um, a goal, whereas actually being able to step back and understanding that this has
got nothing to do with me, this is like, this person is obviously upset by this
situation here, but actually, again, it's not this situation here, it's something
that happened in their childhood.
Um, that is, that is causing the reaction now, um, and they're, the way they
interact with the world around them.
And I think that's something that, you know, we, we just haven't, although
all of this stuff is now sort of being studied a lot more and being understood
a lot more, there's still a lot about our minds that isn't understood and
how they interact with, you know, what society tells us, our past experiences,
our present experiences, etc.
And how that all Intermingles, um, to create who we are and our
reactions to the world around us.
Um, I think we've still got a long way to go, um, to help protect military
personnel or people who are operating in high stress environments, you know, um,
paramedics, doctors, nurses, et cetera.
Travis Bader: So how do you recognize in yourself that you're becoming overloaded?
Are there indicators that you can pick up on?
Megan Hine: Yeah, I think, and this is something where it's like this whole
kind of like self awareness and things.
And I know that there's a lot of stuff on social media that makes you think
all of this is like really hippie esque and, um, kind of woo woo and it's, it's
very easy to dismiss it, but you know, behind all of the pseudoscience and
stuff, there is actually, um, you know, there, there is a real, Uh thing here and
actually having going back to what you were saying, you know about being present
Um and recognizing in yourself So, you know for me when we're talking about like
the the sort of ADHD side of things and like for me I know it's like a panic.
I feel it in my chest.
It's quite a physical Um feeling that I feel in my chest and if I start
feeling that Um, I know that the sort of panic's starting to rise in me And
I know that I'm then not going to be operating in my more human brain, which
is where logic and reasoning live.
Um, I'm going to be operating in the stress response and fight and flight.
Um, and it's so, so when I get an email in.
And sometimes you, cause it's, it's very easy to misread or misunderstand,
you know, a text message or an email and it's so easy to read it coming
in and just be like, what the fuck?
And like,
Travis Bader: you
Megan Hine: want to get back on, like, straight back on the email and just like,
yeah, definitely in that moment, it's like, I mean, we're all, we're all guilty
of it, and we all do it, but it's in that moment of recognizing, it's like,
hang on a minute, why am I triggered?
Like, what is it about this situation that's, that's triggering me?
Um, and oftentimes it comes down to your own, like, self doubt, and actually,
when you step back, it's like, it's not actually worded that badly, or if the
person was typing it too fast, and, yeah.
Travis Bader: Yeah, I think very
Megan Hine: rarely personal
. Travis Bader: I think that's why they made emoticons, because we have
gotten so bad at the written language, at conveying what we actually mean.
We'll type something out with the best intentions, and it comes across to the
other person as why would they say that?
But if I put a laughy face at the end, or if I put this emoticon, then they know
kind of where I'm at and what I'm feeling.
So
Megan Hine: aggressive emojis,
Travis Bader: right?
And I find it so easy and you get an email like that coming in,
um, I just sit on them and I just wait or a text, I'll just wait.
Um, some, some places I'll say like, Dealing with government bodies.
I'll be, excuse me,
dealing with government bodies.
I'll say, I respond to my emails on Wednesday.
Is this an important matter that needs to be addressed before then?
Or can it wait till Wednesday?
And they'll let me know.
Yes or no.
Next Wednesday comes up and I'll say, still working on my response.
I'm not ready yet.
I'll have to do it next Wednesday, but I've become very disciplined
in my approach to how I deal with.
Um, messages and emails as if they could be read at a later date.
I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's a smart thing to do, or if
that's overly cautious thing to do.
But I always think if somebody coming in and looking at this from
a completely outside perspective, saw it, what would they have to say?
And.
That's, that's the approach that I typically take with emails.
I think
Megan Hine: that's very smart.
I mean, you see like, you know, the, the cases that are in the media at the
moment, like the big cases around, you know, it's hard to like, not to have
seen these things, you know, with Blake Lively and, um, Justin Baldoni and
you're seeing this case and it's like.
All of their messages are just being shared out there.
So I'm, I'm the same as you now.
It's like, whenever I send them a WhatsApp, whether it's to a friend, to
anybody now, it's just assuming that it's going to be forwarded on or shared.
Yes.
And yeah.
And, and, and also, I mean, it's sad, isn't it?
That we have to get to this stage, but it's, you know, keeping up
with the IT, particularly with, you know, the work that I do where,
um, you know, oftentimes it's like.
advising in an advisory role.
Um, and you know, maybe something's happening that's, I don't think it's
safe, um, on set or I don't think that, you know, this isn't going
to work or somebody's going to get hurt of making sure that it's all
like documented in email chains and things, um, you know, to, to protect
yourself as much as, as possible.
And it's, I mean, it's sad that we're at this stage, uh, but
it's, but it is really important.
And I think, again, it's even more important not to get triggered
because otherwise it might come back to haunt you later.
Travis Bader: Yeah, there's a real compartmentalization that needs to happen.
It's like, okay, I've said my piece, they're going to go ahead with it.
I have to make a decision.
Do I continue on this show or do I continue consulting with this person?
Do we wrap it up at the end of this one?
And I, and I take a different approach.
I do consulting for a number of different law firms and there's some law firms
that I'll, I'll never consult for again.
And I'll just.
Tell them right off the bat, if they're looking for an end outcome
and, you know, I'm hired as a subject matter expert for the courts, not
for you and not for your client, I'm sitting here trying to give the courts
the best idea from my perspective as to what's kind of happening.
And I got to imagine that's probably a very similar approach
when you're consulting on these sets, you're not there for the set.
You're not, you're there for, for safety.
You're there first and foremost to make sure that people are
going to be safe and effective.
Megan Hine: Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, there is, um, part of the, I suppose people is looking at like the
financial protecting, you know, protecting shows, but also, you know, protecting,
um, protecting the people involved.
Um, it's, it's my, it's primary role, um, on that.
Um, and yeah, sometimes it is particularly like sort of high.
highly dynamic situations, it can be quite, quite difficult.
And, um, I, what I find as well is that we get a lot of, you know, producers,
um, you know, maybe coming in from LA or from London and, you know, don't
really have a huge amount of outdoor experience, um, but have been doing these
shows and have become a bit desensitized to the fact that we're not in a studio.
And just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean that it won't happen.
And it's like, it's what we call a heuristic trap of like, you know,
nothing's, nothing's happened.
So, you know, we're fine.
And we stopped thinking about it and we stopped reading the environment around us.
Um, you know, like Avalanche is a A good example of this, of like, you know,
travelling over snowy terrain, and it's like, there's never been an avalanche
this time of year before, it's like, people just aren't thinking about it,
but actually, the avalanche goes off, and then, then it's like, oh yeah,
there was like, there was wind from this direction, and there was unusual amount
of snow, etc, etc, and suddenly, like, actually all of the signs were there in
the environment, um, but that, people fell into that trap, and didn't read it.
Travis Bader: Right.
Gavin DeBecker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear.
And he talks about, uh, trusting your gut is a big core message on there.
Women have women's intuition, men have their gut feeling, right?
But don't try to analyze why your gut feels a certain way, trust
the gut later in a safe area.
You can go and you can try and analyze why that is and do all of that.
But, um, they talk about people so often they find themselves in
a violent encounter and they turn around afterwards and say, well,
I'm Well, all the signs were there.
Well, if all the signs were there to begin with, then some part of you should
have been able to pick up on that.
And more often than not for me, anyways, I find my gut is the first thing that
picks up on something's not right.
What's not right.
I don't know, but I'm going to extract myself in this situation.
We'll try and figure it out.
Put my ego aside because it's so easy to want to push on through and, and,
um, let that male ego get, get involved.
Right.
Megan Hine: But do you think that goes back to that, um, when we were
talking about earlier about, you know, spending more time in a, in like the
outdoor environment and actually taking ownership, that actually you know
that listening to that intuition or that gut feeling, um, is important.
Um, whereas if you haven't spent much time in those environments where you
actually have to take ownership for yourself, that it's very easy to,
to dismiss it and get into trouble.
Travis Bader: I think so.
I also think just like you talk about this, uh, hippie frou frou type of, uh,
uh, stuff that's out there about energies and, uh, uh, whatever it might be.
I think there's so much in this world that we just don't truly understand.
We're always learning new things.
Science is always uncovering new things.
If we do get these weird feelings, what's the worst that's going
to happen if I act on this?
Maybe I don't get a summit today.
Maybe I don't go into this one location.
I walk into going into a pub and you see all the motorcycles outside and,
and, uh, I don't know, it looks a little seedy and you walk inside the front door
and everyone stops and staring at you.
All right.
I'm a big guy.
I'm tough.
I'm not going to turn around.
Or maybe the gut says.
Yeah, maybe this isn't the place I want to be.
And I can figure it out after whatever, whatever the situation somebody
wants to relate to, whether that's in a city environment or an outdoor
environment, but I think there's more to the world than we truly comprehend.
And if it's not going to, uh, grossly hurt you or inconvenience you, what's
the harm in listening to that guy.
Megan Hine: Yeah, my, my, my theory on this is that, like, if you think about,
like, the brain as, as an iceberg and it's, like, the, the conscious part of
our brain, so, like, our thoughts and things are, like, the tip of the iceberg,
there's only a tiny, tiny percentage of what's, of our brain functioning that is
conscious, that we're even aware of, the rest of it is all underneath the water,
it's the rest, the, the big bulk of the iceberg underneath the water, and our
subconscious chooses The, the messages that it sends through to the conscious
again to keep, help keep us safe.
And I, I, I believe that like the intuition and the gut feelings are like
a partially formed image that you're, the subconscious has picked up on like.
Ooh, danger.
Um, and it's sent through like a partially formed image.
It hasn't sent through the full, full details.
And actually, if you zone in and you're like, hang on a minute, it's like
my brain's picked up on something.
Like, let's get the conscious part now in like what is going on here.
Um, then often, you know, you can then put the pieces together because
we are, It is our natural habitat.
You know, like when you go out the door in the morning and it's like, it's kind of
blue sky, but you're just like, Oh, I'll just take my, take my rain jacket with me.
Right.
Half an hour later it's raining.
And you're just like, Oh, that was a bit of like automatic response.
But it's like, but your, your body might, you know, it's our environment is picked
up on that, the messages and you've acted.
Um, and it's, you know, we should, I think we really should listen to it more,
but you know, we teach young people.
I don't know it's like in Canada, but certainly here in the UK, it's like.
We teach young people to override their intuition, you know, around people, like
first meetings with, you know, always treat people how you wish to be treated.
It's like, well, no, listen to your intuition.
If you get a bad vibe about somebody, like, listen to that.
Travis Bader: I like that a lot.
And I like that example of going outside and bringing a jacket.
Maybe it smells different, but you didn't really pick up on that.
Maybe the birds aren't making their normal sounds, but you didn't pick up on that.
But there's all these things that are kind of going on.
Maybe it just feels different against your skin, but you're not picking up on it,
but there's something deep down that tells you, maybe I should bring that jacket.
And yeah, as kids, yeah.
You know, respect your elders, treat people as you want to be treated.
Uh, no respect is earned.
And if the elder is not respect, is not earning respect, then you don't, um,
you don't give it to them and treating other people as you'd like to be treated.
Yeah.
Within reason, of course.
Um, you mentioned that anxiety feeling that you feel, and you, I think you
touched your chest when you, when you said that you feel internally, I'm curious
when you get that overloaded, overwhelmed, or sort of that anxiety feeling,
and you recognize that's happening.
What steps do you take after that?
Megan Hine: Yeah.
So, um, I don't always do this cause I think, cause I can be pretty stubborn and
it's like, if I'm focused on something, um, but it's usually to my detriment.
So, um, I recognize it.
I'll stop, stop what I'm doing.
Um, and try to breathe.
But what really helps me is just going out for going out for a run earlier.
Cause I was having to make some pretty big decisions earlier today.
And it's like I'd scheduled, like, for my run.
I live in Snowdonia in North Wales, like in the mountains.
Um, and I'd scheduled my run in for later.
Um, but I was just like, actually, you know what?
I'm gonna go now because I need this.
It's like, if I sit here now, I know that, like, you know, I'm gonna
have a physical response to this.
And then my mind is gonna start Playing out these negative
narratives, which are not true.
And, um, I just need to go out and move.
And it's just like, you know, went out and like literally within a couple of
minutes, it's like, oh, here we go.
There's the solution.
And it's like, it's magic.
Like, so moving, being outside and moving is like, is my therapy.
Travis Bader: I agree with that one.
Yeah.
Going for a run, going for a walk, just being outside, you know, I do this with
my kids, I haven't had to do it in a long time, When they're growing up and, and
they're, uh, excited about something.
I'll say, well, just sit down for a second.
Okay.
Do you hear, and I mentioned something.
Do you hear the refrigerator?
No.
Okay.
We'll sit down and wait until you can hear it.
Okay.
I hear it now.
Do you hear cars outside?
No.
Okay.
We'll sit down and wait till you hear it.
Do you hear the birds outside?
No.
Okay.
And I'd use, and I, and you can do it with any one of your senses, touch
and smell and, and feel, but I'd, I'd always use the hearing part because
I found in order for me to hear these really quiet things, I have to
stop and kind of be calm and I find.
Yeah.
And I, and I found that to be a good approach with them.
All of a sudden they're now present.
They're out of that environment where they're just, they're in their
head and they're all worked up.
And, uh, for me, I found, I find that to be a good way to, uh, decompress.
And so when I'm out for a run or I'm out for a walk or whatever
it might be, I'm out hiking.
Um, I find the exercise is a very valuable thing for me, but unless I'm actually
engaging, like, okay, do I actually smell the plants that are growing around me?
Do I hear the birds?
Do I hear the rustle of the squirrels or whatever it might be?
Uh, I find I need to do that personally in order to really kind of be present.
Megan Hine: So true.
Yeah.
Well,
Travis Bader: um, Megan, I really appreciate you taking
the time to be on the podcast.
I really enjoy this conversation.
Thank you so much.
Megan Hine: Thanks for having
me.