WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:13.410 --> 00:00:16.410 Travis Bader: Joined today by one of the world's top survival experts. 00:00:16.770 --> 00:00:20.910 She's an expedition leader, author of Mind of a Survivor, and a key figure 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:23.970 behind the scenes of some of the biggest survival shows in the world. 00:00:24.450 --> 00:00:27.810 She has a deep understanding of persevering in the wild, combined with 00:00:27.810 --> 00:00:29.315 a unique insight into the human mind. 00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:32.729 Which allows her to help others who work at high risk and 00:00:32.729 --> 00:00:33.980 trauma filled environments. 00:00:34.379 --> 00:00:37.010 Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Megan Heine. 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:39.280 Megan Hine: That's quite the introduction. 00:00:39.290 --> 00:00:40.160 Hi, Travis. 00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:41.380 It's great to be with you. 00:00:41.380 --> 00:00:41.915 It's a 00:00:41.915 --> 00:00:42.718 Travis Bader: shame we didn't 00:00:42.718 --> 00:00:44.770 Megan Hine: quite manage to do in person though, did we? 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:46.809 We've like, it almost happened just before Christmas. 00:00:47.370 --> 00:00:48.839 Travis Bader: So close, so close. 00:00:48.980 --> 00:00:53.549 And you know, I, I gotta be honest, I have wanted to have you on the 00:00:53.559 --> 00:00:55.969 podcast for a very long time. 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.769 And when you and I were working on that Fox show, Extracted Together, 00:00:59.769 --> 00:01:00.890 I thought, oh, this is perfect. 00:01:01.099 --> 00:01:03.530 You're up in Whistler working on this new show. 00:01:03.530 --> 00:01:04.140 I'm up there. 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.480 Surely we're going to be able to make something Connect there, but that 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:13.060 was, that was my first experience working on a larger film production. 00:01:13.110 --> 00:01:19.910 And, um, yeah, um, apparently I misunderstood the, uh, the time allocation 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:21.490 required to work on these things. 00:01:21.780 --> 00:01:22.400 How was it for you? 00:01:23.160 --> 00:01:24.600 Megan Hine: Oh, it was, it was brilliant. 00:01:24.600 --> 00:01:26.500 It was a really, it was a great experience. 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:29.800 And yeah, I'd love to hear your, your side of it as well. 00:01:29.800 --> 00:01:33.010 Cause I, our paths didn't quite cross, uh, in the fields. 00:01:33.049 --> 00:01:37.400 But yeah, for me it was the, cause I was actually on screen, um, on this one. 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:42.159 Um, in, yeah, you know, in a role of, uh, what, head of extraction. 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:44.700 So going in to rescue people out of the terrain, um, when 00:01:44.710 --> 00:01:45.480 things happen, which was. 00:01:46.164 --> 00:01:50.214 I'm usually behind the scenes and I'm usually involved like right from the very 00:01:50.214 --> 00:01:53.544 start and all the setup and all the pieces of the puzzle and things coming together. 00:01:53.544 --> 00:01:57.115 So I arrived when the puzzle was pretty much fully formed. 00:01:57.124 --> 00:01:59.084 So it was quite unusual experience for me. 00:01:59.084 --> 00:02:01.214 Whereas I think for yourself, you were involved right at 00:02:01.225 --> 00:02:02.214 the very start, weren't you? 00:02:02.875 --> 00:02:03.725 Travis Bader: Well, yes. 00:02:03.785 --> 00:02:07.815 At the, at an earlier point, I got a phone call from, um, well, actually 00:02:07.815 --> 00:02:09.445 it was Nikki, Nikki van Schindel. 00:02:09.445 --> 00:02:10.924 And she's the past, yes. 00:02:11.145 --> 00:02:11.405 Yeah. 00:02:11.405 --> 00:02:12.165 She's amazing. 00:02:13.635 --> 00:02:17.805 Yeah, she, uh, she was one of my earlier guests here on the podcast 00:02:17.805 --> 00:02:23.175 and, uh, she and I, uh, have a lot in common, same favorite childhood book. 00:02:23.255 --> 00:02:26.594 And, uh, I actually had a copy of it in here with her when, 00:02:26.595 --> 00:02:28.255 uh, when she came in to chat. 00:02:28.885 --> 00:02:31.829 Um, but she says, Trav, you know, we got this show. 00:02:32.410 --> 00:02:38.339 And there might be some hunting on here and the people they're from California and 00:02:38.380 --> 00:02:39.750 they don't know the rules and the laws. 00:02:39.760 --> 00:02:41.709 Can you, can you kind of point them in the right direction? 00:02:41.709 --> 00:02:42.669 I said, sure, no problem. 00:02:42.670 --> 00:02:45.680 So I introduced them to some of my contacts in government and the 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:49.579 people who they need to talk to and they come to me and they say, well, 00:02:49.949 --> 00:02:55.010 you know, I think we need to get all of our contestants licensed. 00:02:55.299 --> 00:02:55.899 Okay, sure. 00:02:55.899 --> 00:02:56.670 That's something we do. 00:02:56.679 --> 00:02:56.820 Yeah. 00:02:56.820 --> 00:02:57.989 We can put a course on for you. 00:02:57.989 --> 00:03:01.679 Not a problem, but, but there's, there's a catch, uh, the. 00:03:01.975 --> 00:03:03.525 They got to come in one at a time. 00:03:03.605 --> 00:03:05.075 They can't see each other. 00:03:05.125 --> 00:03:06.155 They can't do it in a group. 00:03:06.155 --> 00:03:07.125 I'm like, Holy crow. 00:03:07.125 --> 00:03:08.655 This is going to make things interesting. 00:03:08.655 --> 00:03:15.484 So I said, tell you what, in the interest of expediency and in the interest of 00:03:15.515 --> 00:03:19.894 getting this, uh, done free, you know, why don't they do BC's online course, which. 00:03:20.105 --> 00:03:24.795 My company made, uh, why don't you do BCs online course, and then we'll 00:03:24.795 --> 00:03:27.875 go through one at a time and they can challenge a test afterwards 00:03:27.924 --> 00:03:30.654 and they would take them down. 00:03:30.675 --> 00:03:34.185 Some of them blindfolded, some of them they're taken through the hallways. 00:03:34.185 --> 00:03:37.264 And yeah, that, that was a different experience because when you're 00:03:37.264 --> 00:03:39.015 talking to these people, of course. 00:03:39.325 --> 00:03:41.924 The, uh, production company doesn't tell me anything. 00:03:42.204 --> 00:03:43.804 They won't tell me the name of the show. 00:03:43.834 --> 00:03:47.114 They were not allowed to say anything to the contestants. 00:03:47.134 --> 00:03:49.494 And so the contestants are coming in and they're saying things to 00:03:49.494 --> 00:03:52.674 me like, oh, when my dad comes through, you're going to like him. 00:03:52.734 --> 00:03:57.024 I'm like, I don't see your dad on the list here, but okay, like I'm 00:03:57.024 --> 00:03:58.214 trying to piece things together. 00:03:58.395 --> 00:04:01.875 Finally, I just gave in and I called up a buddy of mine who works in transport. 00:04:01.875 --> 00:04:03.555 And I said, what show am I working on? 00:04:03.755 --> 00:04:04.445 What's going on? 00:04:05.395 --> 00:04:06.295 And he knew everything. 00:04:06.375 --> 00:04:07.005 So, uh, 00:04:08.555 --> 00:04:09.005 Megan Hine: They're mad. 00:04:09.035 --> 00:04:11.665 These like, these big shows are absolutely crazy because there's 00:04:11.665 --> 00:04:17.224 so many facets that, um, that go into making up a show like this. 00:04:17.625 --> 00:04:21.164 Um, and it's like, I think like the viewer doesn't always appreciate 00:04:21.265 --> 00:04:25.374 actually just the logistics and all the permitting and things that go into it. 00:04:25.405 --> 00:04:29.014 Um, I, cause I've been working in the industry now for almost 20 years 00:04:29.015 --> 00:04:30.534 and it's, it's changed so much. 00:04:30.534 --> 00:04:31.825 It's like when I first started. 00:04:32.905 --> 00:04:37.984 Like, it was, like, kind of full on, like, cowboy style, like, you go in there, you 00:04:37.994 --> 00:04:41.404 did whatever you wanted, like, permits and things weren't such a big issue, 00:04:41.404 --> 00:04:45.244 budgets were bigger, time frames were longer, um, and it was just, you'd just 00:04:45.244 --> 00:04:48.874 go out into these environments and just have a laugh and just figure it out on 00:04:48.874 --> 00:04:52.984 the fly and kind of wing it, whereas, like, now, like, every single aspect of 00:04:52.984 --> 00:04:57.054 it, like, you're saying, like, from the hunting through to the technology, uh, 00:04:57.104 --> 00:05:01.644 through every single aspect of it is just so, so well thought out, So prepared. 00:05:01.664 --> 00:05:04.124 And it's just insane that you get these large numbers of 00:05:04.144 --> 00:05:05.164 people that come together. 00:05:05.164 --> 00:05:08.494 Cause I think on this show, there was like over 300 people involved. 00:05:08.984 --> 00:05:12.484 Um, you get all these people that come together and they're like, never met. 00:05:12.484 --> 00:05:15.674 A lot of them never met before, never worked together, come, come together, 00:05:15.734 --> 00:05:19.734 make this magic and then disappear off again, never to come back together. 00:05:19.735 --> 00:05:21.434 Well, 00:05:21.715 --> 00:05:24.255 Travis Bader: I look at, I'm like, I don't know how you guys are going to do this. 00:05:24.275 --> 00:05:25.745 I'm listening behind the scenes. 00:05:25.745 --> 00:05:27.325 You're like, oh, we have to do swim testing. 00:05:27.325 --> 00:05:29.314 They're going to be out of the lake and they got to do, and all 00:05:29.315 --> 00:05:30.615 these different testing features. 00:05:30.925 --> 00:05:32.865 And they have to take them one at a time, test them 00:05:32.865 --> 00:05:34.765 individually, have the oversight. 00:05:35.094 --> 00:05:38.535 I'm like, I don't know if you're going to be able to pull this off in time, but 00:05:38.555 --> 00:05:39.964 it'll be interesting to see what you do. 00:05:40.095 --> 00:05:41.135 And sure enough, they do. 00:05:41.135 --> 00:05:42.955 And it all comes together in the end. 00:05:43.395 --> 00:05:46.074 Megan Hine: Every single time it's like, I've been doing some really, 00:05:46.095 --> 00:05:49.464 like doing some really big shows actually the past four or five years. 00:05:49.555 --> 00:05:54.525 I used to do like a lot more expeditions, super remote, um, kind of very agile 00:05:54.525 --> 00:05:59.984 shows, but somehow I ended up doing these like big adventure, uh, sort of. 00:06:00.525 --> 00:06:01.545 Competition shows. 00:06:01.705 --> 00:06:04.825 Um, and it's like every single one I've worked on, it's like, you kind of, you 00:06:04.855 --> 00:06:08.831 come aboard and just like, there is absolutely no way that we're going to be 00:06:08.831 --> 00:06:12.135 able to pull this off in like the weeks or the couple of months that we've got 00:06:12.135 --> 00:06:16.145 here and every time, like we managed to do it, which doesn't really help our 00:06:16.145 --> 00:06:20.405 case because it means that like the next time they're just like, no, so you pulled 00:06:20.405 --> 00:06:21.635 it off, you don't need any more time. 00:06:21.635 --> 00:06:23.195 You can have less time and less budget. 00:06:23.675 --> 00:06:24.345 Oh, totally. 00:06:24.355 --> 00:06:24.525 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:06:24.815 --> 00:06:27.285 Typical union environment type mentality. 00:06:27.285 --> 00:06:27.535 Right. 00:06:27.995 --> 00:06:29.775 Um, so. 00:06:30.135 --> 00:06:31.645 How did you get into this? 00:06:31.655 --> 00:06:33.785 You've been doing this for over 20 years now. 00:06:33.845 --> 00:06:35.515 How did, how did this all get rolling? 00:06:36.625 --> 00:06:43.324 Megan Hine: Uh, so I, I guess going back to like childhood and, um, my dad, 00:06:43.635 --> 00:06:48.245 um, was, was originally a geologist and did a lot of expeditions, um, this 00:06:48.275 --> 00:06:52.275 way, way before I was born, um, did a lot of expeditions, loved rocks. 00:06:52.284 --> 00:06:55.604 So all our family holidays, uh, were to go and look at rocks, 00:06:55.615 --> 00:06:57.105 get up close and personal. 00:06:57.685 --> 00:07:01.235 Um, he did a lot of climbing, so we did a lot of climbing, so it was like touching 00:07:01.235 --> 00:07:05.375 the rocks, digging the rocks out, hunting for fossils, going out, um, camping, 00:07:05.795 --> 00:07:09.775 um, with my parents and out in the mountains, like typically around the UK. 00:07:09.835 --> 00:07:14.394 I'm British, I'm from North Wales, um, and so a lot of our family holidays 00:07:14.395 --> 00:07:19.695 were into the mountains in the UK, um, and exploring, and I never knew that 00:07:19.695 --> 00:07:21.925 there was a career outside of academia. 00:07:23.405 --> 00:07:26.745 And I guess because I was the oldest of four, it was just assumed that I 00:07:26.745 --> 00:07:31.425 would follow in my parents footsteps and go into teaching or doctoring 00:07:31.825 --> 00:07:33.744 or something, get a proper job. 00:07:36.354 --> 00:07:39.174 And it just it just kind of never never really happened. 00:07:39.554 --> 00:07:42.685 I got I had a place to go into the military. 00:07:43.715 --> 00:07:46.315 But I thought I'll take a year out after I finished school, 00:07:46.315 --> 00:07:47.545 I had this place to go into. 00:07:48.280 --> 00:07:52.070 officer training in the UK, um, I thought I'd take a year out and go, 00:07:52.550 --> 00:07:55.120 uh, off to New Zealand, which is somewhere I'd always wanted to go to. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.709 I think, similar to you and Nicky being inspired by a book, I was 00:07:57.820 --> 00:08:00.910 inspired by this book called The Land of the Long White Cloud, which was 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:01.639 Travis Bader: given 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.079 Megan Hine: to me by my, um, by some cousins that lived in Australia, 00:08:05.080 --> 00:08:09.860 and it was this beautiful book, illustrated book, of like Maori culture 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.860 and their mythology and folklore. 00:08:12.255 --> 00:08:15.315 Um, and I just, like, I'd hide under the covers at night and read this book. 00:08:15.375 --> 00:08:18.675 Um, and, I just, I just wanted to go to New Zealand. 00:08:18.675 --> 00:08:21.925 So as soon as I could, um, I figured I was going to take a year out before going back 00:08:21.925 --> 00:08:26.034 to the military and go to New Zealand, uh, end up on, working on South Island. 00:08:26.405 --> 00:08:29.695 Stroke of fate, luck, in being in the right place at the right time, ended 00:08:29.695 --> 00:08:36.885 up doing an apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival and, um, taking people 00:08:36.885 --> 00:08:38.745 out into the, into the mountains. 00:08:39.060 --> 00:08:41.700 Um, there, and I suddenly realized that there's actually, you 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:42.740 know, there's a career in this. 00:08:43.189 --> 00:08:44.919 Um, so that's kind of where it all started. 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:48.830 Travis Bader: And then at some point you were working for a company and 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:53.250 they said, uh, we want, we want your help on a, uh, this little known 00:08:53.910 --> 00:08:56.299 film set, this guy by the name of. 00:08:56.410 --> 00:08:56.760 Mr. 00:08:56.760 --> 00:08:57.160 Grylls, 00:08:57.160 --> 00:09:02.690 Megan Hine: that was like, that was super random. 00:09:02.690 --> 00:09:05.840 Like, cause I was, um, so I, when I came back from New Zealand, 00:09:06.150 --> 00:09:09.279 um, I was, I, I decided I wasn't going to go into the military. 00:09:09.280 --> 00:09:13.970 I actually ended up doing a degree in outdoor studies, um, which was basically 00:09:14.009 --> 00:09:15.600 three years of climbing on a student loan. 00:09:15.999 --> 00:09:18.660 And, um, it was, it was awesome. 00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:19.410 It was so much fun. 00:09:19.410 --> 00:09:21.550 I spent my second year actually out in the Czech Republic. 00:09:21.580 --> 00:09:22.780 I did an exchange out there. 00:09:23.219 --> 00:09:24.074 Travis Bader: Oh, I love it out there. 00:09:24.505 --> 00:09:28.425 Megan Hine: Oh man, it's like, it's so wild, and uh, I was, I went out 00:09:28.425 --> 00:09:31.695 with a friend of mine, we bought this like, really shitty old bus, and we 00:09:32.555 --> 00:09:34.855 converted the back of it, and we're like, living in the back of this in 00:09:34.865 --> 00:09:39.364 the middle of Prague, um, and we, there was like a language issue, and we, 00:09:39.405 --> 00:09:41.664 they weren't really expecting us, they didn't really know what to do with us, 00:09:41.665 --> 00:09:46.045 so we just fucked off to Austria and went mountaineering for, for months. 00:09:46.065 --> 00:09:46.575 Beautiful! 00:09:47.595 --> 00:09:49.455 Yeah, it was, it was amazing, it was such an amazing trip, 00:09:49.455 --> 00:09:50.615 it was a very formative trip. 00:09:51.015 --> 00:09:56.685 Um, I, like, we, towards, like, I ended up falling into, like, a big crevasse and 00:09:56.695 --> 00:09:59.945 we had a bit of an epic, so we thought we should probably, at this point, go 00:09:59.964 --> 00:10:01.414 back and actually do some studying. 00:10:01.415 --> 00:10:06.324 So I went back, um, um, and ended up doing, uh, that's kind of, I 00:10:06.474 --> 00:10:10.785 suppose, where my interest in, like, the psychology and philosophy of 00:10:10.815 --> 00:10:12.525 why people go into the outdoors. 00:10:12.735 --> 00:10:16.835 kind of came from, uh, because they do, although their, their physical side of 00:10:16.855 --> 00:10:22.015 things, so like our outdoor adventure pursuit sort of side of lessons were 00:10:22.955 --> 00:10:28.274 hardcore, like super fucking hardcore, um, in how they bring that on, uh, but 00:10:28.274 --> 00:10:32.285 then on the flip side, they had this really beautiful, like, philosophy and 00:10:32.565 --> 00:10:36.555 you'd sit down and you'd talk through why people would go into the outdoors 00:10:36.555 --> 00:10:39.755 and the psychology behind it and our connection with the natural world. 00:10:40.585 --> 00:10:43.885 Which was something I'd never really kind of thought about, uh, before. 00:10:44.495 --> 00:10:47.885 Um, and then I came back to the UK and ended up, um, doing an 00:10:47.885 --> 00:10:51.405 apprenticeship, a three year apprenticeship in bushcraft and survival. 00:10:51.844 --> 00:10:55.924 Um, and I kind of picked up my, sort of, British mountaineering qualifications, 00:10:55.934 --> 00:10:57.325 climbing qualifications as well. 00:10:57.764 --> 00:11:02.745 Um, and I, I guess I was just in this really kind of unique Um, position that 00:11:02.765 --> 00:11:07.095 I'd got this sort of random collection of qualifications and experience. 00:11:07.135 --> 00:11:10.605 I'd started leading, um, expeditions out to the Himalaya. 00:11:10.605 --> 00:11:13.784 This was like in my early twenties, um, as well. 00:11:13.785 --> 00:11:17.335 And just this combination at some point I was working for a company 00:11:17.414 --> 00:11:23.065 that had just taken on the consultancy for, Um, Bear Grylls Man vs. 00:11:23.115 --> 00:11:27.105 Wild, like his, Bear Grylls original shows, the ones that made him really big. 00:11:27.444 --> 00:11:31.665 And I think the first season, like, it had just been a bunch of guys having a 00:11:31.685 --> 00:11:36.774 laugh out in the field and there was, like, stories of bear suits and Man vs. 00:11:36.774 --> 00:11:36.814 Wild. 00:11:38.965 --> 00:11:42.135 And all this stuff just like got out into the press because nobody 00:11:42.135 --> 00:11:43.295 knew how big it was going to be. 00:11:43.295 --> 00:11:45.014 Right. 00:11:45.015 --> 00:11:45.215 Yeah. 00:11:46.375 --> 00:11:49.484 So like, right, okay, second season we need to lock this down and we need to do 00:11:49.484 --> 00:11:51.004 this properly so we'll bring in a team. 00:11:51.205 --> 00:11:55.215 Um, so I was actually hired originally to, um, to rig the stunts. 00:11:55.255 --> 00:11:58.765 So build, like, design and build the, the rigging challenges. 00:11:59.175 --> 00:12:03.465 Uh, and I went along and joined the first show that I ever did was 00:12:03.465 --> 00:12:05.225 the only ever urban show he did. 00:12:05.235 --> 00:12:05.265 Right. 00:12:05.465 --> 00:12:06.334 Oh, we're filming it. 00:12:06.655 --> 00:12:10.385 Poland and Gdansk in the, the dockyard there, which was just nuts. 00:12:10.765 --> 00:12:14.645 Um, and then I, I just kind of stuck, um, as part of the team, um, and was 00:12:14.645 --> 00:12:19.905 part of his team, um, in between working on other shows and expeditions, um, you 00:12:19.905 --> 00:12:21.484 know, for the next sort of 14 years. 00:12:22.510 --> 00:12:25.840 Travis Bader: Well, you know, I, I met him a number of years ago and, 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.040 uh, what, what do you say to me? 00:12:27.050 --> 00:12:28.250 He says, they should call me bear. 00:12:28.260 --> 00:12:33.180 I'm six foot, 650 pounds, big, big beard standing beside him. 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:38.349 Like the TV makes, makes the perspective off, but he's a small guy, you know, 00:12:38.349 --> 00:12:41.030 some of the toughest people I know are just these, these diminutive. 00:12:42.025 --> 00:12:46.824 Small people, they can less injuries, less weight to, uh, to lug around. 00:12:46.824 --> 00:12:48.635 And they just, and that mindset as well. 00:12:48.645 --> 00:12:52.114 The mindset is huge for the toughness, but he says something about you. 00:12:52.125 --> 00:12:57.744 He says, uh, uh, 99 percent of the people out there, you are 00:12:57.745 --> 00:12:59.855 tougher than 99 percent of the. 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.380 Well, 99 percent of the men he knows, but 99 percent of the people are there. 00:13:03.380 --> 00:13:06.310 You're tougher than that was kind of a neat compliment. 00:13:06.749 --> 00:13:09.109 Megan Hine: That, that was an awesome, that was an awesome compliment. 00:13:09.140 --> 00:13:09.469 Yeah. 00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:11.130 That was, um, that was really cool. 00:13:11.130 --> 00:13:15.209 And I think that's something like with bear is that he's very loyal to his team. 00:13:15.349 --> 00:13:19.109 Um, and it's, that's how he and his shows have been so successful 00:13:19.129 --> 00:13:22.359 because they're really agile shows. 00:13:22.369 --> 00:13:24.859 So, you know, with the, when it got to the sort of. 00:13:25.030 --> 00:13:29.470 the Running Wilds that we did and I, I did like six full seasons of the 00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:34.109 Running Wilds, which is where uh, he's going out and he's accompanied by, 00:13:34.140 --> 00:13:38.289 you know, usually a major celebrity or politician, um, as a guest. 00:13:38.800 --> 00:13:42.389 Um, and you know, there's all this stuff about it being fake and 00:13:42.389 --> 00:13:43.649 all of this, and like, it isn't. 00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:47.645 It's like, you know, we genuinely, at the start of the day, Um, the cameras 00:13:47.645 --> 00:13:51.635 switch on and they don't switch off until they're tucked up in their shelters. 00:13:51.985 --> 00:13:55.595 Uh, and the journey's linear, so they're constantly moving through the environment. 00:13:55.655 --> 00:13:59.255 The guest, you know, is genuinely on a journey with Bear. 00:13:59.654 --> 00:14:02.414 Um, and as a crew, you know, we're having to adapt to that. 00:14:02.425 --> 00:14:06.854 So, uh, often I'm, you know, attached to, I've got a camera operator attached to me. 00:14:06.854 --> 00:14:08.985 I usually work with, like, the main camera operator. 00:14:09.665 --> 00:14:12.985 So that I can then move my safety team around the terrain and I've got 00:14:12.985 --> 00:14:16.185 a good visual on where everybody is, uh, and then we're, you know, we're, 00:14:16.255 --> 00:14:19.264 we're moving through the terrain, uh, with, with him and his guest. 00:14:19.265 --> 00:14:23.925 And it's, you know, it's very agile, very dynamic, very real 00:14:23.925 --> 00:14:25.725 risks and, uh, super exciting. 00:14:26.775 --> 00:14:29.294 Travis Bader: Well, one of the things I think appeals to the audience and 00:14:29.295 --> 00:14:30.645 probably appeals, I'm going to put. 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.900 Myself out there and guess it probably appeals to you is the psychology of 00:14:34.910 --> 00:14:38.520 the individuals when they go out into the wild and they have a formulaic 00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:42.850 approach to the, uh, you know, uh, the Bear Grylls shows as they go through, 00:14:42.850 --> 00:14:47.810 because it works where they take somebody out, they push their boundaries. 00:14:47.989 --> 00:14:49.550 There's a shared adversity. 00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:53.090 There's a time to debrief over a cup of tea. 00:14:53.390 --> 00:14:59.090 And the insights that people share in these, these moments is, uh, 00:14:59.375 --> 00:15:00.964 It's really, really cool there. 00:15:01.945 --> 00:15:05.795 You talk about the psychology behind why people go outside. 00:15:06.324 --> 00:15:07.614 Why do people go outside? 00:15:09.454 --> 00:15:11.084 Megan Hine: Oh, well, I think that there's so many different 00:15:11.444 --> 00:15:13.354 levels to this and layers to it. 00:15:13.395 --> 00:15:16.824 Um, but on a very fundamental level, it's our natural habitat. 00:15:17.025 --> 00:15:22.174 Um, I, I'm a true believer in the fact that we haven't evolved 00:15:22.574 --> 00:15:24.605 to live in this modern world. 00:15:24.665 --> 00:15:25.475 Like we. 00:15:26.050 --> 00:15:26.830 have adapted. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:30.540 We haven't necessarily evolved and we're incredible at adaptation. 00:15:30.550 --> 00:15:32.780 Like, you know, that's what defines us as a species. 00:15:32.780 --> 00:15:36.730 We're absolutely phenomenal at adapting to new environments, 00:15:36.770 --> 00:15:38.470 new situations, new scenarios. 00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:42.050 But it doesn't mean that we like it or our brains can cope with it. 00:15:42.390 --> 00:15:45.920 Um, and we look around at the modern world around us and the fast pace it moves at. 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.210 And we look at our like primitive survival mechanisms that are built in 00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:54.960 us to keep us safe, that are in all animals, um, you know, the limbic system, 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.419 that fight, flight, freeze response that like lives within our brain. 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.869 Um, and it's like, it's incredibly powerful. 00:16:01.939 --> 00:16:04.500 Um, and its primary role is to keep us safe. 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:06.120 So it's constantly scanning the environment around 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:07.350 us, looking for threats. 00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:08.280 Um, and that was. 00:16:08.579 --> 00:16:13.349 at a time when, you know, we had predators, uh, like, say, two tigers 00:16:13.349 --> 00:16:16.130 or bear that would have, you know, that would have been hunting us, 00:16:16.170 --> 00:16:20.369 potentially, as we were quite vulnerable without our, like, uh, without any fur 00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:22.699 and claws and big teeth and things. 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:28.180 Um, but then We've then created this modern world very, very fast, 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:30.960 and the brain, that part of the brain, that survival part of the 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:35.150 brain, can't differentiate between real versus perceived threat. 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:40.630 And you're seeing triggering posts on social media triggers us in the same way 00:16:40.749 --> 00:16:46.610 as in the same flood of chemicals as if that saber toothed tiger was stalking us. 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:51.915 So I think for us actually just going back into into nature And I think 00:16:52.084 --> 00:16:55.715 this is where social media, I'd be interested, you know, to hear your view 00:16:55.715 --> 00:16:59.535 on this, but I think there's a social media move of like extreme adventuring, 00:16:59.545 --> 00:17:03.465 like going up Everest, going to the South Pole, going on these like, like 00:17:03.545 --> 00:17:08.155 massive expeditions, um, that, you know, it's the minority of people or 00:17:08.165 --> 00:17:09.685 adventurers going and doing these things. 00:17:09.715 --> 00:17:13.385 And there's a big push that that's what we should be doing on adventure, but that's 00:17:13.385 --> 00:17:18.775 not where like the power of nature for healing, the therapeutic applications. 00:17:18.915 --> 00:17:22.415 Come in, it was like literally going in your lunch break and sitting in the 00:17:22.415 --> 00:17:26.685 local park or going for a walk in the woods with your kids and reconnecting, 00:17:27.014 --> 00:17:28.654 uh, with this natural world around us. 00:17:28.675 --> 00:17:31.645 That is very much a part of, of who we are. 00:17:32.964 --> 00:17:33.825 Travis Bader: Yeah, I believe that. 00:17:33.844 --> 00:17:39.409 I, and I guess the idea behind social media pushing these extreme adventures is. 00:17:39.550 --> 00:17:44.449 That it has to show something that'll break a person out of their scroll, 00:17:44.449 --> 00:17:48.550 scroll, scroll, something that'll be eye catching enough or adrenaline kind 00:17:48.550 --> 00:17:52.149 of dopamine fixing enough so that they actually stop and they look at it. 00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:59.019 But, you know, like for me going out in the wild, I, I 00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:00.739 need to, I need to get outside. 00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:03.150 I need to be just by water. 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.070 You talk about listening to the birds. 00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:12.320 I am a big believer of listening to the birds, um, of just being present, uh, 00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:16.509 every day, I try to find ways to deepen my connection with the natural environment. 00:18:16.969 --> 00:18:23.050 And I find if I don't, because, you know, And I, I'm going to throw this back at you 00:18:23.060 --> 00:18:28.129 because the world that we live in, having to post stuff on social media, having to 00:18:28.129 --> 00:18:32.429 work, you work in these Hollywood realms with people who are a lot of type A 00:18:32.450 --> 00:18:35.040 personalities, a lot of, a lot of energy. 00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:39.450 Uh, a lot of people who may have never really spent much time in the outdoors. 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.989 Um, I, I find that it can be rather. 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.730 Because if your external environment doesn't match your internal 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:53.130 environment, um, there's going to be stress associated with that. 00:18:54.320 --> 00:18:55.530 Megan Hine: Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:18:55.560 --> 00:18:59.750 And I think, cause we, I mean, it's a good point, you know, you make about this, the 00:18:59.820 --> 00:19:04.969 ever, the, or the feeling to ever need to be upping our social media game or 00:19:04.999 --> 00:19:06.799 upping the way that we present ourselves. 00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:11.259 And I think, you know, this is where actually having been a part of. 00:19:11.675 --> 00:19:15.495 this evolution of, um, adventure filmmaking to the 00:19:15.495 --> 00:19:16.825 point of where it is now. 00:19:16.885 --> 00:19:21.024 Um, having watched that journey and actually sometimes I wonder if what 00:19:21.024 --> 00:19:26.334 we've done is actually not that positive because we, you know, the 00:19:26.334 --> 00:19:29.794 media needs to sensationalize thing to, as you say, you know, to grab people's 00:19:29.794 --> 00:19:33.824 attention, you need to sensationalize stuff and you know, what we're doing. 00:19:34.139 --> 00:19:41.570 When I'm putting together a, um, like a journey for, for, for a TV show, looking 00:19:41.570 --> 00:19:45.910 for locations, looking for stories, we're looking to trigger emotions in people 00:19:45.910 --> 00:19:47.450 because that's what gets people hooked. 00:19:47.649 --> 00:19:51.509 And it is far easier to trigger fear and anxiety in people 00:19:52.629 --> 00:19:54.710 than it is joy and happiness. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.880 because of that primitive survival mechanism, it's so easy to trigger that 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:04.549 and to, you know, to make people feel, uh, fear or anxiety or to empathize 00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:09.950 with what that person or character on screen is going through, than it is to, 00:20:10.100 --> 00:20:13.589 to trigger sort of joy and happiness in, in other people, which is really sad. 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:15.220 It's like, what? 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:16.450 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:20:16.450 --> 00:20:16.720 Um, 00:20:17.570 --> 00:20:17.850 Megan Hine: yeah. 00:20:17.850 --> 00:20:21.635 So this is, and this is, and this is like, you know, Even myself, I find 00:20:21.635 --> 00:20:26.065 myself, um, you know, you do do the doom scrolling and you're stuck in this like, 00:20:26.135 --> 00:20:30.554 um, social media hole, uh, and you forget. 00:20:30.645 --> 00:20:33.764 And it's like even working in the industry and knowing how manipulative 00:20:33.764 --> 00:20:39.405 it is and knowing how, you know, much sort of Research goes in, into creating 00:20:39.405 --> 00:20:42.295 addictive, uh, actions goes into it. 00:20:42.305 --> 00:20:44.845 It's even then it's like you get caught into this because our 00:20:44.854 --> 00:20:46.795 brains just, you know, respond. 00:20:48.125 --> 00:20:49.345 Yeah, it's scary. 00:20:49.775 --> 00:20:50.175 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:20:50.204 --> 00:20:52.904 Well, what, what do you do to keep yourself centered? 00:20:52.915 --> 00:20:56.714 Like you've talked about burnout before, what do you do to deal with. 00:20:56.834 --> 00:21:01.605 Burnout to deal with, uh, every day stresses. 00:21:01.655 --> 00:21:04.475 I mean, you're, you're dealing in high risk environments. 00:21:04.485 --> 00:21:08.544 There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of energy coming in. 00:21:08.544 --> 00:21:12.494 What do you do to help, uh, work this through if you can't get outside or if 00:21:12.494 --> 00:21:14.364 you can get outside, what's your secret? 00:21:14.804 --> 00:21:17.264 Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean, it's a really, it's a really good question. 00:21:17.284 --> 00:21:22.344 And, um, just pre COVID actually, because I think for me personally, like COVID 00:21:22.374 --> 00:21:27.475 came at a good time, like all this kind of lockdown, personally, because leading up 00:21:27.475 --> 00:21:29.524 to I'd just been diagnosed with burnout. 00:21:29.864 --> 00:21:36.915 Um, and I think because I'd spent, uh, sort of over a decade, really full time 00:21:36.915 --> 00:21:42.440 on out on the road, um, At the time, um, myself, my partner, we'd, we'd 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:43.850 been together for a, for a long time. 00:21:43.850 --> 00:21:45.100 We were doing the same work. 00:21:45.150 --> 00:21:48.399 Um, so we didn't really need to go home and reconnect at home. 00:21:48.399 --> 00:21:52.120 So we were just constantly on the road for sort of 10, 11 months of the year. 00:21:52.350 --> 00:21:57.489 Um, constantly bouncing time zones, environments, you know, just before COVID, 00:21:57.489 --> 00:22:00.080 you know, managing projects in the jungle. 00:22:00.570 --> 00:22:05.710 And, uh, you know, so I'd have a job going in South America, job going in China. 00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:10.590 bouncing between those time zones, typically cruise, international cruise. 00:22:10.630 --> 00:22:14.590 So you're on like zoom calls, your meetings, all hours of the day and night, 00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:16.699 um, and managing multiple projects. 00:22:16.699 --> 00:22:22.540 And these are all quite high risk, high stress, um, jobs with an inherent risk. 00:22:22.580 --> 00:22:25.570 You know, when you're out working in these environments with a lot of moving 00:22:25.570 --> 00:22:30.750 parts of helicopters and boats and people, um, to be switched on all the time. 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:34.360 Um, and then, you know, and then inevitably there's like the level of. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:38.090 a sort of a layer of politics as well that gets involved as soon as you start 00:22:38.090 --> 00:22:39.960 dealing with sort of mega celebrities. 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:40.430 Yes. 00:22:40.650 --> 00:22:44.540 Um, and that for me is like the, the straw that breaks the, the back. 00:22:44.540 --> 00:22:45.679 Travis Bader: Yes. 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.479 Megan Hine: It's too, too complex for my brain to, to want to deal with. 00:22:48.479 --> 00:22:49.410 And I just want to do my job. 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.720 Um, so yeah, just pre COVID, I think it was. 00:22:51.735 --> 00:22:55.245 It's just accumulation of many, many, many years and not really 00:22:55.245 --> 00:22:56.935 understanding the need to rest. 00:22:56.935 --> 00:23:00.604 And also, you know, the fear when you're a freelancer, I'm working in 00:23:00.604 --> 00:23:03.334 these environments as much as, you know, I'm addicted to it, love it. 00:23:03.514 --> 00:23:05.034 And that was what was driving me. 00:23:05.034 --> 00:23:08.364 There's also this underlying fear of, you know, if you take your foot 00:23:08.364 --> 00:23:11.135 off the pedal, is somebody else going to get in there and take over? 00:23:11.135 --> 00:23:11.794 Travis Bader: Right. 00:23:11.795 --> 00:23:12.175 Right. 00:23:13.320 --> 00:23:17.070 Megan Hine: Um, so yeah, so I, yeah, so was diagnosed with burnout and I, 00:23:17.120 --> 00:23:21.250 around this time, I actually started wearing, um, a WHOOP device, like a, 00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:26.459 a wear, like when you wearables, yeah, sort of measuring, um, you know, what's 00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:30.099 ticking on long underneath the surface and what's going on with my physiology. 00:23:30.459 --> 00:23:35.530 Um, and my HRV, so my heart rate variability was insanely low. 00:23:35.780 --> 00:23:38.110 So it was sitting like on average around 10, 00:23:38.639 --> 00:23:39.020 Travis Bader: like, 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.389 Megan Hine: um, I know it is nuts cause I know, souped. 00:23:42.725 --> 00:23:46.975 It's a really physical job because, uh, managing people, but also like rigging. 00:23:46.985 --> 00:23:49.625 So it's like, you know, wandering, like going into the mountains every 00:23:49.625 --> 00:23:54.255 day with like 20 kilogram, um, rigging bags and like, you know, 00:23:54.355 --> 00:23:57.635 running around in these environments, like, you know, super physical. 00:23:57.705 --> 00:24:02.655 Um, but my heart rate variability was insanely low and it's taken like four 00:24:02.655 --> 00:24:04.625 or five years for it to get back up. 00:24:05.054 --> 00:24:07.614 And actually when you see the numbers and you see just how 00:24:07.614 --> 00:24:09.334 slow it is to come back up. 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:13.920 You know, I think that burnout is like burnout isn't talked about enough. 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:18.100 And unfortunately, those of us that are most likely prone to it, the 00:24:18.100 --> 00:24:21.119 ones that are not going to listen to the advice anyway, because of course 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:22.129 it's never going to happen to me. 00:24:22.699 --> 00:24:23.219 Travis Bader: Never. 00:24:23.449 --> 00:24:26.640 Well, what does a burnout diagnosis look like? 00:24:26.710 --> 00:24:31.449 Like, I, I don't know too many people who would be able to recognize that 00:24:31.449 --> 00:24:33.489 in themselves if they have burnout. 00:24:33.725 --> 00:24:34.165 What does it look like? 00:24:34.175 --> 00:24:34.415 Yeah, 00:24:34.485 --> 00:24:38.195 Megan Hine: it's, it's really hard to, uh, because it's so insidious. 00:24:38.195 --> 00:24:41.655 It comes on so slowly, like it kind of creeps onto you. 00:24:42.074 --> 00:24:45.555 Um, and it can, it starts off usually with, you know, feeling quite tired, 00:24:45.845 --> 00:24:49.795 um, and just feeling like you can't, yeah, you're just kind of hanging 00:24:49.795 --> 00:24:51.175 in there, like you're surviving. 00:24:51.555 --> 00:24:53.659 Um, and it's like you're able to function and it's like, 00:24:53.659 --> 00:24:54.775 you just kind of keep going. 00:24:54.775 --> 00:24:56.515 It's almost, you're on autopilot. 00:24:56.525 --> 00:24:58.645 It's like a really weird feeling. 00:24:59.145 --> 00:25:00.755 Um, and I think what was. 00:25:01.010 --> 00:25:06.450 What triggered me to kind of go and get, go and talk to, uh, a medical, uh, 00:25:06.490 --> 00:25:12.510 professional, a doctor, um, was that I spent three months out in Norway, um, 00:25:12.520 --> 00:25:17.560 on a job, and I, I came off the back of it, and I was like, I actually can't 00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:19.429 remember, like, anything about this shoot. 00:25:19.429 --> 00:25:22.560 Like, I've literally just come off this shoot, and I cannot remember. 00:25:23.385 --> 00:25:26.175 Yeah, and it was just like, I am, I'm, am I going mad? 00:25:26.365 --> 00:25:28.135 Like, what the heck? 00:25:28.215 --> 00:25:29.465 Like, this is insane. 00:25:29.475 --> 00:25:34.555 Like, so, um, yeah, so I went to speak to a doctor and, um, I was quite emotional at 00:25:34.555 --> 00:25:38.534 the time, um, around it as well, and just, you just kind of, like, you feel like 00:25:38.534 --> 00:25:42.660 you You're losing your shit, like, it's kind of, like, things are unravelling, 00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:47.430 um, and you don't know why, and there's no sort of rhyme or reason, um, but then 00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:51.709 when you, like, look at the pattern and, like, how long, you know, the behaviours 00:25:51.730 --> 00:25:55.509 and things, and, you know, I think, I don't think we appreciate, like, the 00:25:55.509 --> 00:25:59.209 effects of time zone, um, travel and, 00:25:59.725 --> 00:26:00.605 Travis Bader: I could see that. 00:26:01.005 --> 00:26:01.525 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:26:01.715 --> 00:26:06.675 Um, so all, all of that, I think kind of led, led to it and yeah, just feeling, 00:26:07.355 --> 00:26:09.025 definitely just feeling out, out of sorts. 00:26:09.025 --> 00:26:09.924 Well, just 00:26:09.924 --> 00:26:14.465 Travis Bader: prior to COVID, so that'd be around September 20, 2019. 00:26:14.474 --> 00:26:19.305 You had a post on social media that says in the end, we only regret the 00:26:19.315 --> 00:26:21.414 chances we didn't take the relationships. 00:26:21.810 --> 00:26:25.850 We were too afraid to embark on and the decisions we waited too long to make. 00:26:27.300 --> 00:26:27.600 Megan Hine: Yes. 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.970 It's funny to see when you read social media and like hindsight and just 00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:40.595 like, yeah, I tried to read any other tech, like messages from that period, 00:26:40.595 --> 00:26:45.000 Travis Bader: especially if you couldn't remember something after doing a show in 00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:47.220 Norway, you'd get, get back from that. 00:26:47.710 --> 00:26:50.040 Megan Hine: Yeah, I mean that was, that was quite scary actually, it was like 00:26:50.040 --> 00:26:53.590 coming out of the back of that and just being like, people asking you questions 00:26:53.600 --> 00:26:58.800 about it and just being like, I, I actually don't remember any of this, 00:26:58.820 --> 00:27:00.470 like this is really, really bizarre. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:05.520 Um, yeah, so I think COVID came at a good point, uh, time for me, 00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:09.750 otherwise I, I think I would have found it very hard to stop, um. 00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:13.580 So yeah, it was just good to, good to recuperate and during that, 00:27:13.580 --> 00:27:17.580 over that period of time, kind of realizing how unhealthy, like the 00:27:17.580 --> 00:27:20.410 working schedule that I had was. 00:27:22.070 --> 00:27:24.820 Travis Bader: So you've been vocal about ADD. 00:27:24.820 --> 00:27:26.889 You've got ADD. 00:27:26.889 --> 00:27:30.119 At a young age, grade three, I was diagnosed with severe ADHD. 00:27:30.850 --> 00:27:32.070 I was medicated. 00:27:32.975 --> 00:27:37.804 Uh, I was on an experimental run in the province of BC for the highest dosage of, 00:27:37.834 --> 00:27:39.794 uh, Ritalin being prescribed to someone. 00:27:39.794 --> 00:27:42.334 They just kept upping it more and more just to see what the effects 00:27:42.334 --> 00:27:45.235 would be like and what it would do until I finally took myself off cold 00:27:45.235 --> 00:27:46.934 Turkey at the end of grade seven. 00:27:46.934 --> 00:27:50.945 I said, I didn't want to go to high school taking these smart pills 00:27:50.945 --> 00:27:52.014 as other people would call them. 00:27:52.070 --> 00:27:52.189 And, uh, 00:27:54.949 --> 00:27:58.909 I gotta imagine that the A-D-D-A-D-H-D is gonna play a 00:27:58.909 --> 00:28:01.070 role in this burnout as well too. 00:28:02.040 --> 00:28:03.330 Megan Hine: Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:03.389 --> 00:28:05.100 No, it really, it really does. 00:28:05.100 --> 00:28:12.620 Um, and for me, the diagnosis of a DD actually came, um, more recently. 00:28:12.830 --> 00:28:15.889 Um, so that was maybe four years ago. 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.310 Yes, it wasn't that that wasn't that long ago. 00:28:19.600 --> 00:28:22.540 And this is what's really interesting because I've done, I've done a lot 00:28:22.550 --> 00:28:31.439 of reading, um, since that, uh, and understanding, uh, that how there's so 00:28:31.439 --> 00:28:37.670 many women that I suppose sort of get to sort of my age and get diagnosed either 00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:41.054 because their children have been diagnosed with it and they recognize the symptoms. 00:28:41.195 --> 00:28:46.075 symptoms in their child and themselves, um, or they've, you know, or they've, 00:28:47.044 --> 00:28:50.205 the information's percolated into them to be like, Oh, light bulb moment. 00:28:50.965 --> 00:28:56.064 Um, I think for a lot of, for a lot of girls, um, ADHD, ADD 00:28:56.064 --> 00:28:58.145 presents differently to, to boys. 00:28:58.424 --> 00:28:59.804 Uh, whereas boys tend to. 00:29:00.024 --> 00:29:06.445 externalize, um, the symptoms, not always this adrenalization, but tend to, um, 00:29:06.514 --> 00:29:10.264 externalize in that kind of not being able to sit still, that fidgeting, maybe 00:29:10.344 --> 00:29:12.465 being seen as a bit naughty, uh, in class. 00:29:14.114 --> 00:29:19.745 Whereas like for girls, often it tends to internalize, um, and 00:29:19.754 --> 00:29:23.145 manifests as depression, anxiety. 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:29.670 Um, the focus is very internal and like this internal narrative, um, that 00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:32.300 yeah, can lead to depressive thoughts. 00:29:32.899 --> 00:29:37.179 Um, for me, when I look back on it, it's like in school, it's like I used to just 00:29:37.179 --> 00:29:39.420 skip, skip classes to go mountain biking. 00:29:39.589 --> 00:29:43.080 Um, and I could, I could really, I really struggled to sit still 00:29:43.080 --> 00:29:44.300 and I couldn't understand why. 00:29:44.715 --> 00:29:48.425 Cause it wasn't like I wasn't achieving, like the grades were, my grades were 00:29:48.435 --> 00:29:50.165 okay, but I just couldn't sit still. 00:29:50.165 --> 00:29:50.745 I couldn't focus. 00:29:50.745 --> 00:29:51.995 I'd be within four walls. 00:29:51.995 --> 00:29:53.315 I'd just be so anxious. 00:29:53.365 --> 00:29:57.615 It's like this feeling in my chest of like panic and need to be, need 00:29:57.615 --> 00:29:59.015 to be moving, need to be escaping. 00:29:59.015 --> 00:30:02.015 And I'd play up, um, and get sent out of classes. 00:30:02.505 --> 00:30:05.455 Um, and yeah, I can relate to 00:30:05.455 --> 00:30:05.675 Travis Bader: that. 00:30:06.345 --> 00:30:07.855 Megan Hine: Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it? 00:30:08.035 --> 00:30:11.025 It's just like, we're just not designed to sit still like that. 00:30:11.405 --> 00:30:15.015 Travis Bader: Well, it's, it's horrible when you're forced to be in an environment 00:30:15.015 --> 00:30:18.225 that you're not designed to be in, like you say, that's the horrible part. 00:30:18.255 --> 00:30:20.585 When you look at yourself and you say, there's something wrong with me. 00:30:20.955 --> 00:30:22.295 Why can't I concentrate? 00:30:22.295 --> 00:30:23.515 Why can't I study? 00:30:24.305 --> 00:30:27.029 I remember in grade four, I had a teacher who. 00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:32.170 I took a different approach with me and he says, well, you like 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:33.720 puzzles and you like games here. 00:30:33.990 --> 00:30:34.530 Do puzzles. 00:30:34.530 --> 00:30:36.480 You like chemistry, bring in your chemistry. 00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.610 He said, and I was teaching at my college level chemistry books. 00:30:39.610 --> 00:30:43.280 And for me, chemistry was making disappearing ink or making things blow up. 00:30:43.570 --> 00:30:46.380 I mean, that was, if it does something that you can see 00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:47.770 an exact result out of that. 00:30:47.810 --> 00:30:48.520 That's exciting. 00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:48.760 Right. 00:30:49.300 --> 00:30:53.610 And I got straight A's in grade four, by grade seven, I got straight F's. 00:30:53.610 --> 00:30:56.570 So my teacher said, took me aside at the end of the year. 00:30:56.570 --> 00:30:57.530 And I look him at my rec. 00:30:57.775 --> 00:31:02.135 Port guard, it says pass, but the grades didn't come up enough from straight 00:31:02.135 --> 00:31:04.705 F's to, to really make sense to me. 00:31:04.705 --> 00:31:06.375 Like, is this a pass? 00:31:06.375 --> 00:31:07.285 Is this not a pass? 00:31:07.285 --> 00:31:11.605 And she says, well, technically it's not a pass, but I don't want to see 00:31:11.605 --> 00:31:13.205 you back in the classroom again. 00:31:13.375 --> 00:31:16.005 I think you're going to get more out of high school than I'm ever 00:31:16.005 --> 00:31:16.895 going to be able to give you. 00:31:16.955 --> 00:31:17.635 You're going. 00:31:17.685 --> 00:31:23.485 So, um, and you know, growing up, I always looked at, uh, ADHD as. 00:31:23.710 --> 00:31:27.420 As a male thing, because all of the literature, the doctors are 00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:31.180 like, Oh, girls don't get ADHD, which isn't, which is ludicrous. 00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:33.400 Like what, why would girls not get it? 00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:41.400 And I, I didn't realize how it presents in girls is more, um, internalized. 00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:43.469 Yeah, 00:31:43.550 --> 00:31:45.610 Megan Hine: well it's interesting because it's that same, if you think about like 00:31:45.610 --> 00:31:50.260 the same energy that, uh, like a little boy is going to be putting out into 00:31:50.260 --> 00:31:56.310 the world with ADHD, that same energy for a girl is typically put inside. 00:31:56.700 --> 00:32:00.495 And where else is it going to go into like these kind of, Weird thought 00:32:00.535 --> 00:32:03.095 patterns or unhealthy thought patterns. 00:32:03.965 --> 00:32:06.775 Travis Bader: So you've got, you've got a background in psychology. 00:32:07.245 --> 00:32:11.505 Um, if I were to put on my pseudo psychologist hat, having zero background 00:32:11.505 --> 00:32:17.915 in psychology, um, I'm wondering if perhaps your desire to be outside 00:32:17.945 --> 00:32:20.105 and be in these extreme environments. 00:32:20.525 --> 00:32:25.355 Was an attempt at being present because when you're thinking about where your 00:32:25.355 --> 00:32:28.585 next hand holder foothold is going to be on the rock, when you're thinking 00:32:28.585 --> 00:32:33.125 about when you're rafting down the river, like where's, where's the hole, 00:32:33.135 --> 00:32:38.275 where's, where's the, uh, the strainers and the keepers and your head is 00:32:38.305 --> 00:32:42.975 right there in the moment, it allows your external environment to kind of 00:32:43.025 --> 00:32:45.115 maybe match your internal environment. 00:32:45.475 --> 00:32:47.915 Is that, uh, is that an accurate assessment? 00:32:48.635 --> 00:32:50.155 Megan Hine: I think that's a very accurate assessment. 00:32:50.155 --> 00:32:52.015 But I think there's two parts of it. 00:32:52.125 --> 00:32:55.985 I think you're right in that it is, uh, finding the present, but 00:32:55.985 --> 00:32:57.915 it was also in a running away. 00:32:58.045 --> 00:33:01.835 It's like, I've made a career about of running away and it's like running 00:33:01.835 --> 00:33:03.845 away from that, those, that anxiety. 00:33:03.865 --> 00:33:06.895 Cause it's like, if you can pedal fast enough or push yourself hard enough, 00:33:06.925 --> 00:33:09.785 you can out like outrun the anxiety. 00:33:10.235 --> 00:33:15.925 Um, and then, yeah, the climbing, the rock climbing, um, for me, like, I 00:33:15.925 --> 00:33:18.575 actually wrote, when I was at university, I actually wrote my dissertation 00:33:18.585 --> 00:33:21.485 on, uh, flow in rock climbers. 00:33:21.565 --> 00:33:25.155 And it's like where you find, I'm sure a lot of like people, 00:33:25.285 --> 00:33:30.525 outdoors, um, folk who have had this experience at some time or another. 00:33:30.910 --> 00:33:34.110 for those, for some of you may be super lucky to experience it a lot, 00:33:34.150 --> 00:33:38.650 but it's this kind of moment where it's almost like you're not thinking. 00:33:38.650 --> 00:33:41.360 Your body and mind are so connected and it's like you're flowing up 00:33:41.370 --> 00:33:44.160 the rock face or you're flowing through the, along the trails. 00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.250 If you're running, I'd imagine it's something that you experienced 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:49.080 a lot when hunting as well. 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.300 Um, and you're just so in tune with the environment. 00:33:51.370 --> 00:33:55.340 It's the most beautiful thing to, to, to be. 00:33:55.340 --> 00:33:56.920 And it's just the ultimate. 00:33:57.505 --> 00:33:58.325 being present. 00:33:58.385 --> 00:34:02.375 And that for me, and like the rock climbing, um, it 00:34:02.375 --> 00:34:03.495 was just, it was beautiful. 00:34:03.495 --> 00:34:07.485 And I was, I suppose I was chasing that, um, as well as the, you know, the running 00:34:07.485 --> 00:34:11.894 away from anxiety or, you know, emotions that I didn't have the toolkit to be able 00:34:11.895 --> 00:34:14.525 to deal with, um, when I was younger. 00:34:16.050 --> 00:34:18.260 Travis Bader: When I was younger, my parents said they didn't 00:34:18.270 --> 00:34:19.970 think I'd live past 10 years old. 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.830 And then they said, well, you made it a 10, maybe 12, 12, maybe 18. 00:34:23.850 --> 00:34:24.650 Now you're an adult. 00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:26.920 Well, maybe, maybe you're going to make it right. 00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:33.260 And because I was, I was just bouncing off the walls everywhere and I was 00:34:33.270 --> 00:34:35.020 always doing things that were putting. 00:34:35.575 --> 00:34:37.485 Myself in physical risk. 00:34:37.975 --> 00:34:42.395 And, you know, I almost died a number of times and through my teenage 00:34:42.395 --> 00:34:45.685 years and early twenties, almost drowned three different occasions. 00:34:45.685 --> 00:34:46.495 I've almost drowned. 00:34:47.125 --> 00:34:55.815 Um, and the one thing I found though, was you never truly feel as alive 00:34:56.045 --> 00:34:58.175 as when you almost die, right? 00:34:58.265 --> 00:35:02.055 When, when, when you're on that edge and it's like, it could go this way, it could 00:35:02.055 --> 00:35:05.565 go that way and you get through and you're riding this high and you feel great. 00:35:05.875 --> 00:35:10.075 But it can cause you to keep pushing more and more for those environments. 00:35:10.285 --> 00:35:13.685 It's kind of like, and I liken it to a cliff jumping. 00:35:14.125 --> 00:35:14.445 Okay. 00:35:14.445 --> 00:35:15.925 So I jumped off from this height. 00:35:16.065 --> 00:35:16.795 Can I go higher? 00:35:17.315 --> 00:35:17.635 Okay. 00:35:17.635 --> 00:35:18.435 Now I've done it for here. 00:35:18.435 --> 00:35:19.025 Can I go higher? 00:35:19.025 --> 00:35:20.785 Like at what point do we stop? 00:35:21.910 --> 00:35:27.860 And I'm wondering, so you had quite the experience in that crevasse, uh, that was 00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:30.760 a, uh, life threatening situation, was it? 00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:35.130 Megan Hine: Um, yeah, that, that one was, that was, um, yeah, that was kind 00:35:35.130 --> 00:35:39.180 of what prompted us to go back, uh, to university and do some, do some studying. 00:35:39.270 --> 00:35:43.860 Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I totally, totally agree with you. 00:35:44.035 --> 00:35:48.835 Uh, with that, I think, and whether that's an ADD, ADHD thing, or whether 00:35:48.835 --> 00:35:52.855 it's a personality type, or childhood experiences, or, you know, whatever it 00:35:52.855 --> 00:35:57.915 might be, there is, um, you know, for, for many of us, there is that feeling of 00:35:58.325 --> 00:36:03.865 feeling alive when you're confronted, or when the consequences are, um, so strong. 00:36:04.005 --> 00:36:07.205 And this is going back to, you know, what we were talking about earlier, about 00:36:07.215 --> 00:36:10.195 like that fight flight freeze response, and the stress response, and whether 00:36:10.195 --> 00:36:12.295 we've evolved to live as we do now. 00:36:13.005 --> 00:36:17.025 Um, you know, there's so, so few times really in the modern world, in the 00:36:17.025 --> 00:36:23.395 western world, where, um, we have to take responsibility, um, for our own actions. 00:36:23.445 --> 00:36:24.195 It's very easy. 00:36:24.195 --> 00:36:25.435 There's a blame culture. 00:36:25.645 --> 00:36:29.885 Um, you know, you see that in like the suing culture and things. 00:36:29.905 --> 00:36:31.085 Yeah, and constantly. 00:36:31.375 --> 00:36:33.505 Passing the buck onto somebody else. 00:36:33.565 --> 00:36:36.325 Whereas, you know, when you go out into the outdoors, whether you're 00:36:36.325 --> 00:36:39.385 hunting, whether you're running, whether you're climbing, you have 00:36:39.385 --> 00:36:41.755 to take ownership of your actions. 00:36:41.815 --> 00:36:45.675 Um, and that responsibility, uh, is really empowering. 00:36:45.765 --> 00:36:45.855 Mm-hmm. 00:36:45.945 --> 00:36:49.425 Um, and I think that's where a lot of this comes down to as well as 00:36:49.425 --> 00:36:53.865 you actually feel alive because you actually have to engage in your life. 00:36:55.295 --> 00:36:55.565 Travis Bader: I agree. 00:36:55.660 --> 00:36:56.615 Do you, do you hunt? 00:36:57.985 --> 00:36:59.185 Megan Hine: Um, I spearfish. 00:36:59.275 --> 00:37:00.145 I would love to hunt. 00:37:00.145 --> 00:37:00.655 I live in the uk. 00:37:00.655 --> 00:37:00.985 I love 00:37:00.985 --> 00:37:01.615 Travis Bader: spearfishing. 00:37:02.165 --> 00:37:02.575 Megan Hine: I love it. 00:37:02.875 --> 00:37:05.565 Yeah, that's my, that's my mindfulness. 00:37:05.575 --> 00:37:06.135 Like, yeah. 00:37:06.135 --> 00:37:08.025 So I live on the coast in North Wales. 00:37:08.115 --> 00:37:09.725 Uh, yeah, it's yeah. 00:37:09.985 --> 00:37:11.105 Often, often out here. 00:37:11.535 --> 00:37:13.265 Travis Bader: And you spear fish out in North Wales. 00:37:13.655 --> 00:37:14.015 Megan Hine: Yep. 00:37:14.125 --> 00:37:14.425 Yeah. 00:37:14.675 --> 00:37:17.075 I got my bass and yeah, mullet. 00:37:17.075 --> 00:37:18.484 That 00:37:18.665 --> 00:37:19.455 Travis Bader: is so cool. 00:37:19.835 --> 00:37:20.065 Yeah. 00:37:20.075 --> 00:37:20.715 I, um. 00:37:21.435 --> 00:37:24.385 I recently learned that if I put a little bit of silicone on my mask and 00:37:24.675 --> 00:37:28.745 create a seal for my, uh, my beard mustache here, and I can actually, 00:37:29.615 --> 00:37:31.515 used to be, I just shave it all off. 00:37:31.515 --> 00:37:34.655 Anytime I went into the South Pacific or places I want to spearfish 00:37:34.845 --> 00:37:39.875 and I will just take a, um, I'll find a chunk of bamboo and some 00:37:39.875 --> 00:37:41.955 surgical tubing and some paracord. 00:37:41.955 --> 00:37:45.555 And maybe I, if I'm able to find a stinger head or travel with a little 00:37:45.555 --> 00:37:47.945 stinger head, I'll wrap that on there. 00:37:47.955 --> 00:37:51.055 And I, and I use a, like a Hawaiian sling I'll make up. 00:37:51.535 --> 00:37:55.275 Are you using a spear gun or like a sling or? 00:37:55.505 --> 00:37:57.165 Megan Hine: Yeah, I do have a Hawaiian sling. 00:37:57.185 --> 00:37:59.445 I don't tend to use it here. 00:37:59.635 --> 00:38:02.915 Um, but I, because I work quite a lot of Panama at the moment. 00:38:02.995 --> 00:38:06.765 Um, so I take a Hawaiian sling that I take packs down and I take that with me. 00:38:07.135 --> 00:38:09.175 Um, but I do, I've got a spear gun. 00:38:09.185 --> 00:38:10.545 I usually go out with a spear gun here. 00:38:11.645 --> 00:38:13.295 Travis Bader: I find for me, the. 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.670 Like growing up, I always wanted to hunt and I didn't really get out. 00:38:17.730 --> 00:38:19.460 I spent a lot of time outdoors. 00:38:19.550 --> 00:38:23.700 We had a commercial fly fishing lodge in an area just past Kamloops up in, uh, 00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:28.520 here in British Columbia, and it was a hike in or fly in only sort of thing. 00:38:28.530 --> 00:38:32.930 So you could get a helicopter in and there's about 5, 000 elevations. 00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:35.370 So you could land a float plane, but there's speculation whether you. 00:38:35.710 --> 00:38:39.080 At that altitude, you could take off again, or you're hiking all your gear in. 00:38:39.590 --> 00:38:43.160 So as a kid, I would, I would, I'm going to do air brackets, I would 00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:48.550 hunt and I had no idea about what was allowed or not, but you know, squirrels 00:38:48.550 --> 00:38:50.900 and grouse and stuff like this. 00:38:51.040 --> 00:38:53.130 Um, but the. 00:38:53.815 --> 00:38:58.295 The ability to be present and all the little things that come in and how the 00:38:58.545 --> 00:39:05.265 animals interact with the flora and, and each other just becomes a study. 00:39:05.675 --> 00:39:08.265 I find when I'm out there, what's growing. 00:39:08.665 --> 00:39:09.925 Uh, do we see. 00:39:10.215 --> 00:39:12.515 Do we see spruce tips kind of coming out here? 00:39:12.515 --> 00:39:12.895 Okay. 00:39:12.895 --> 00:39:15.795 So that tells me an idea as to where my elevation is. 00:39:15.795 --> 00:39:18.045 And it gives me an idea as to what kind of animals are going 00:39:18.045 --> 00:39:19.305 to be out this time of the year. 00:39:19.305 --> 00:39:24.425 And for me, it's, it's not about the actual act of harvesting 00:39:24.505 --> 00:39:27.815 the animal that just happens to put some food in the freezer. 00:39:28.200 --> 00:39:33.130 But it's all of that time up preparing for the hunt, uh, packing, getting 00:39:33.130 --> 00:39:36.210 everything together, training ahead of time, then, then being 00:39:36.220 --> 00:39:40.890 outside and trying to as quickly as possible become one with nature. 00:39:41.370 --> 00:39:43.200 For me, that's what hunting's about. 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:44.310 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:39:44.630 --> 00:39:49.130 I'm so jealous of Canadians and your amazing wilderness. 00:39:49.130 --> 00:39:51.240 You've got the most amazing backyard to go and play in. 00:39:51.850 --> 00:39:54.670 Uh, but I, I, I totally agree with you about that. 00:39:54.910 --> 00:39:57.200 When you're in spearfishing, it's exactly. 00:39:57.290 --> 00:39:57.970 what it is. 00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:02.900 Um, that, cause it's, you've got this one breath to go down and understand 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:08.000 the animal behavior, have a look, you know, see any idea, any idea, any signs, 00:40:08.090 --> 00:40:11.360 um, in the environments of, you know, of the fish that you're looking for. 00:40:11.520 --> 00:40:14.610 Um, and yeah, it's, it's just magic. 00:40:14.620 --> 00:40:16.890 And it's just that, that feeling. 00:40:17.170 --> 00:40:22.090 Um, Yeah, but yeah, like, like you, it's not, it's not about shooting 00:40:22.090 --> 00:40:24.600 the animal, that's not for me, that's not, that's actually, I 00:40:24.600 --> 00:40:29.080 find that incredibly difficult, um, which I'm glad about actually, 00:40:29.080 --> 00:40:33.390 because then you have the respect for where your food comes from, um. 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:33.840 Travis Bader: Huge. 00:40:34.290 --> 00:40:34.670 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:40:34.970 --> 00:40:38.870 But the, as you say, like the lead up to it is just, it's just incredible. 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.010 It's something really primal. 00:40:40.060 --> 00:40:41.780 It's what we've been programmed for. 00:40:42.300 --> 00:40:42.760 Travis Bader: It is. 00:40:42.790 --> 00:40:45.870 And you know, if I'm going to eat meat, I should be able to square 00:40:45.870 --> 00:40:50.220 myself with the idea that at some point the animal has to die. 00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:51.370 And if I. 00:40:51.605 --> 00:40:53.235 Put that onto a third party. 00:40:53.235 --> 00:40:57.675 And I kind of divorced myself from the concept of, of where that food comes from. 00:40:57.715 --> 00:41:00.545 I find there's a much more intimate connection when I sit around the 00:41:00.545 --> 00:41:04.065 table with my family and we're eating a meal and we're talking about the 00:41:04.075 --> 00:41:05.915 time that we spent together outdoors. 00:41:05.935 --> 00:41:11.315 I mean, it's, uh, um, it's a very, very close connection that I find that whole 00:41:11.325 --> 00:41:13.255 close circle with the natural environment. 00:41:14.350 --> 00:41:20.650 I'm curious as to your thoughts on medication for something like ADD, ADHD. 00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:24.990 Megan Hine: Yeah, that's really interesting, um, thought actually, 00:41:24.990 --> 00:41:29.120 cause this is something that, excuse me, this I've been thinking about 00:41:29.120 --> 00:41:31.450 actually a lot recently, because I guess. 00:41:32.115 --> 00:41:37.735 I suppose like 18 months ago, I kind of, I made more of a shift into focusing 00:41:37.735 --> 00:41:43.615 on building up my company, um, and developing show ideas and projects. 00:41:44.065 --> 00:41:47.915 There's a couple of projects that we've got that are in development, um, at the 00:41:47.915 --> 00:41:50.255 moment, which are really, really exciting. 00:41:50.265 --> 00:41:53.105 And oh my gosh, if like one of them comes off, it's going to be insane. 00:41:53.535 --> 00:41:54.975 Uh, I'm just really excited. 00:41:55.635 --> 00:41:59.955 I feel very passionate about these things, but, um, the problem I have that I've 00:41:59.965 --> 00:42:03.845 never experienced before, and I think you mentioned like the ADHD is like a 00:42:03.845 --> 00:42:09.285 superpower and I completely agree with this because it's, it's allowed me to do 00:42:09.285 --> 00:42:13.345 my job and it's like in a field where, you know, there are so many moving 00:42:13.345 --> 00:42:17.125 parts like all the time when, when we're working, when we're filming and it's 00:42:17.125 --> 00:42:18.655 like all the different aspects and it. 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:23.530 That my role covers, uh, and I'm involved in every department. 00:42:23.850 --> 00:42:26.590 I'm, I know what's happening where, where everybody is. 00:42:27.020 --> 00:42:30.730 Uh, and my brain works so well like that when I've got this big 00:42:30.730 --> 00:42:33.010 overview, um, of what's happening. 00:42:33.020 --> 00:42:37.570 But when I've been trying to, more recently, been foc trying to focus 00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:42.320 on sitting behind my computer and creating spreadsheets and things. 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:42.840 Ah, yeah. 00:42:42.910 --> 00:42:48.435 And I, like, it is It is a horrible feeling because it's just this like, 00:42:48.645 --> 00:42:52.488 again, it's going back to that sort of childhood sitting in between four walls 00:42:52.488 --> 00:42:57.313 and this sheer panic that starts arising and just like trying to like keep myself 00:42:57.313 --> 00:43:00.208 here and it's like, I just want to go. 00:43:00.208 --> 00:43:04.068 Um, so I'm trying to figure the best balance of, of that 00:43:04.068 --> 00:43:05.555 to try to actually figure out. 00:43:05.695 --> 00:43:06.955 And that's where I was actually. 00:43:07.575 --> 00:43:13.975 Would be interested to take medication just to see how it 00:43:14.035 --> 00:43:15.325 works and how it interacts. 00:43:15.695 --> 00:43:16.525 I'm fascinated. 00:43:16.525 --> 00:43:20.565 I don't like the idea of it being long term, but I'd just be intrigued 00:43:20.575 --> 00:43:22.485 to see if it makes a difference. 00:43:23.375 --> 00:43:26.385 Travis Bader: I think that's the, the issue with medication is a 00:43:26.385 --> 00:43:28.414 lot of them are these long term. 00:43:28.855 --> 00:43:31.945 Uh, I'm going to go air brackets again, solutions. 00:43:32.685 --> 00:43:39.795 And when you talk about spreadsheets for me, chat GPT has been amazing for 00:43:39.795 --> 00:43:44.055 helping get the rough work basically done and getting things together. 00:43:44.445 --> 00:43:47.705 If I, um, throw these things in, that's, I think for somebody with 00:43:47.705 --> 00:43:50.765 ADHD, it's a, it's a huge creativity. 00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:56.570 Booster, um, because then actually see the steps through to the next, next point. 00:43:56.570 --> 00:44:00.860 But, you know, people ask me, they say, well, what do you think my kid's 00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:04.160 got ADD or my kid's been diagnosed with ADHD or whatever it might be. 00:44:04.490 --> 00:44:07.170 Um, what are your thoughts on medication? 00:44:08.090 --> 00:44:11.570 And just all I can speak from is my experience with the 00:44:11.570 --> 00:44:13.150 medications that they put me on. 00:44:13.265 --> 00:44:19.845 And I would say, why are we trying to medicate somebody to be able to 00:44:19.845 --> 00:44:23.905 fit in a certain environment, as opposed to finding that environment 00:44:23.905 --> 00:44:26.315 that they can thrive in unmedicated. 00:44:26.925 --> 00:44:30.765 And I know that's not always going to be possible if we want 00:44:30.765 --> 00:44:32.205 to be in a functional society. 00:44:32.745 --> 00:44:36.445 If you want to be able to get along with other people, maybe the meds can 00:44:36.445 --> 00:44:43.075 be a helpful thing, but I, I've always, I always tell people to approach it 00:44:43.075 --> 00:44:47.355 with a great deal of caution because once you're on these things, a lot 00:44:47.355 --> 00:44:51.665 of times, uh, the pros will say, well, you can't just come off of it. 00:44:51.955 --> 00:44:54.915 We have to wean you off, or you can put you onto something else, 00:44:54.915 --> 00:44:56.275 or maybe you're onto it for life. 00:44:57.235 --> 00:44:58.515 And I would much rather. 00:44:58.710 --> 00:45:04.780 Find an environment that I can thrive in with whatever it is that my mindset 00:45:04.780 --> 00:45:11.090 is, or my makeup is, then to force myself to adapt to one that I'm, I'm 00:45:11.090 --> 00:45:15.120 not inclined to, to fit in with that, that, that would be my thoughts. 00:45:15.120 --> 00:45:18.620 It might be a little controversial for some, especially for those who, uh, 00:45:19.100 --> 00:45:21.900 um, look at medication as a savior. 00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:22.830 And I get it. 00:45:23.590 --> 00:45:26.800 If a person is going through a moment of crisis, maybe this 00:45:26.810 --> 00:45:28.430 is the right solution for them. 00:45:28.845 --> 00:45:34.055 But by and large, I say exercise and diet and your environment and your 00:45:34.055 --> 00:45:39.165 circle of friends and the goals that you have for yourself, all of these things, 00:45:39.455 --> 00:45:45.155 the hard work things of actually being disciplined and, and moving towards the 00:45:45.155 --> 00:45:51.705 progressive realization of a worthy ideal would be, um, better than medication. 00:45:52.605 --> 00:45:56.095 Megan Hine: I know there's super sound advice and I think it's, I guess it's. 00:45:56.865 --> 00:46:02.005 This is why a podcast like this is so powerful, uh, because to be able to, 00:46:02.105 --> 00:46:05.005 for you to be able to talk about your experiences and share it with a wider 00:46:05.005 --> 00:46:09.375 audience, for people to understand that there may be other options, and that 00:46:09.415 --> 00:46:15.475 actually just because you have ADHD or you have whatever it might be, doesn't 00:46:15.475 --> 00:46:20.005 mean that you can't be successful in your career, um, or find change. 00:46:20.330 --> 00:46:23.200 Yeah, it finds your home, um, out there. 00:46:23.200 --> 00:46:24.300 I think, I think you're right. 00:46:24.370 --> 00:46:25.440 I, I think it's sad. 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.710 I, I see it a lot on, um, like when I used to do a lot more expeditions of 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:33.780 people coming along with, um, anxiety and depression and being on medications 00:46:34.310 --> 00:46:39.010 for that and choosing to, to come off of it on these expeditions, not 00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:42.630 under my, to your medical providers. 00:46:44.645 --> 00:46:49.675 But, uh, they were making the decision to come off of it and actually just 00:46:49.675 --> 00:46:55.575 being in that environment and connecting with people because a huge part of the 00:46:56.025 --> 00:46:59.235 issue with our society at the moment is that, you know, we don't physically 00:46:59.235 --> 00:47:00.975 need to interact with anybody ever. 00:47:01.375 --> 00:47:03.275 And we've got online ordering. 00:47:03.565 --> 00:47:05.635 You know, we don't actually have to go out. 00:47:05.895 --> 00:47:10.595 Um, so much of our world is set up in competition with each other. 00:47:11.495 --> 00:47:11.825 Travis Bader: Whereas, 00:47:12.545 --> 00:47:15.745 Megan Hine: you know, we, when you see, you know, work with indigenous cultures 00:47:15.755 --> 00:47:20.795 or see how they're, they operate is very much as a family unit, units that 00:47:20.795 --> 00:47:24.955 would go around to help each other out, raise children together, patch 00:47:24.965 --> 00:47:27.255 up shelters together, forage together. 00:47:27.695 --> 00:47:28.315 Um. 00:47:28.770 --> 00:47:33.200 All of these things were communal activities that we, we've lost that. 00:47:33.490 --> 00:47:37.980 Um, we, there's so few of us now actually live near our, near 00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:40.270 our parents, have that support. 00:47:40.670 --> 00:47:43.230 Um, our grandparents become very isolated. 00:47:43.540 --> 00:47:45.490 Uh, and I think this is a huge part of this. 00:47:45.540 --> 00:47:51.130 It's just like this lack of human connection and, um, working together 00:47:51.130 --> 00:47:53.070 as, you know, as tribal units. 00:47:54.390 --> 00:47:57.520 Travis Bader: Have you seen that Harvard study that would span over 00:47:57.570 --> 00:48:01.140 80 years and it looked at, right. 00:48:01.510 --> 00:48:03.210 I, what did it say? 00:48:03.210 --> 00:48:06.320 They were looking at happiness and what makes people happy. 00:48:06.820 --> 00:48:07.690 What do they say? 00:48:08.580 --> 00:48:09.030 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:48:09.070 --> 00:48:11.870 Well, the human connection being with other people. 00:48:12.075 --> 00:48:13.285 That's it, the 00:48:13.285 --> 00:48:16.965 Travis Bader: number, the number one indicator for what, if somebody will be 00:48:16.965 --> 00:48:19.885 happy or not is strong social connections. 00:48:20.395 --> 00:48:24.115 Having a good friend group, having a good family group, like across all 00:48:24.125 --> 00:48:26.735 cultures, across all areas of the world. 00:48:26.735 --> 00:48:28.845 And that is the number one. 00:48:29.555 --> 00:48:34.705 Indicator that a personal report, feelings of contentment and happiness is if they 00:48:34.705 --> 00:48:36.285 have those strong social connections. 00:48:37.585 --> 00:48:38.975 Yeah, it's really 00:48:39.015 --> 00:48:42.585 Megan Hine: interesting, like seeing that with like the, um, uh, it was a 00:48:42.585 --> 00:48:48.155 study done on it's like, you know, what made people more likely to survive in, 00:48:48.195 --> 00:48:51.965 they typically were looking at like wilderness survival, um, situations, but 00:48:51.965 --> 00:48:56.705 it was like, what would make somebody more likely to survive a situation. 00:48:56.785 --> 00:48:59.775 And one of the, there were sort of two main factors. 00:48:59.885 --> 00:49:04.865 to this, but one of them was, um, that connection, although they, the 00:49:04.865 --> 00:49:09.085 family or friends or whoever it might be, may not physically be with them. 00:49:09.295 --> 00:49:12.845 Um, and they may not have any contact with them, but just knowing that they've got 00:49:12.845 --> 00:49:18.565 this amazing support network behind them, um, was enough to help keep people alive. 00:49:18.635 --> 00:49:23.365 Um, and the other part of that was like a sense of purpose, um, found 00:49:23.365 --> 00:49:24.825 in, you know, potentially in routine. 00:49:25.285 --> 00:49:26.685 Uh, but it is interesting, isn't it? 00:49:26.845 --> 00:49:28.985 So we are designed, I think this way. 00:49:29.530 --> 00:49:33.360 When we look at, like, COVID and it's like, there's so many, we're still 00:49:33.370 --> 00:49:38.280 here in the UK still dealing with the fallout, um, of the sort of mental health 00:49:38.290 --> 00:49:43.540 fallout from the lockdown that we were experiencing, people being isolated, and 00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:47.420 there was all this argument about, you know, well, our grandparents went to war 00:49:47.420 --> 00:49:50.500 and, you know, all of this, and it's like, well, surely they had it worse, like, 00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:54.170 why are we dealing with such a, such a big mental health issue at the moment? 00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:57.140 But a huge part of that comes down to the isolation. 00:49:57.140 --> 00:49:57.260 Yeah. 00:49:57.275 --> 00:50:01.155 You know, yes, it might sound great that you can sit and watch Netflix all day, 00:50:01.195 --> 00:50:06.345 but it's far more important to actually physically interact, be with people, um, 00:50:06.485 --> 00:50:08.885 and, and yeah, and, and talk to people. 00:50:09.775 --> 00:50:12.445 Travis Bader: I remember as a kid, I was reading, I think it was a national 00:50:12.445 --> 00:50:15.205 geographic or a popular mechanics. 00:50:15.225 --> 00:50:20.005 I think maybe it was a popular mechanics and it was an older 00:50:20.005 --> 00:50:25.025 magazine that was talking about the psychology of survival and it likened. 00:50:25.855 --> 00:50:31.465 Um, the, the paradox that when they're looking at people in, uh, 00:50:31.475 --> 00:50:36.525 world war two, and let's say, I think the example was used was a shipwreck 00:50:37.525 --> 00:50:38.805 and they're surviving on at sea. 00:50:38.805 --> 00:50:42.175 And by and large, they figured that all of these young. 00:50:42.945 --> 00:50:46.535 Soldiers would be the ones that would out survive the older ones. 00:50:46.535 --> 00:50:48.955 But the inverse actually turned out to be true. 00:50:49.365 --> 00:50:53.265 It was the older ones who looked at the situation and said, well, my first 00:50:53.265 --> 00:50:54.825 divorce was harder than this, right. 00:50:54.825 --> 00:50:58.755 And, or whatever it might be, they have these learned experiences 00:50:58.785 --> 00:51:05.550 and they've got a mindset where they're, I guess, tougher, um, Yeah. 00:51:05.550 --> 00:51:11.870 I, I find it really, really interesting, um, mental health and mindset 00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:13.630 and how that plays into survival. 00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:14.520 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:51:14.530 --> 00:51:17.490 Have you, have you read the book, um, by Joseph Frankel, 00:51:17.590 --> 00:51:18.930 um, Man's Search for Meaning? 00:51:19.680 --> 00:51:21.810 Travis Bader: The one thing you can't take from me is the way I choose to 00:51:21.820 --> 00:51:24.600 respond to what you do to me, the last of life's great freedoms is 00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:26.470 one's ability to choose their own. 00:51:26.755 --> 00:51:28.295 Attitude in any given circumstance. 00:51:28.295 --> 00:51:29.245 It's, it's, 00:51:30.245 --> 00:51:35.515 Megan Hine: it's incredible for anybody who doesn't, hasn't come across this book. 00:51:35.515 --> 00:51:41.315 It he's, um, a psychiatrist that was, uh, it was in Auschwitz 00:51:41.375 --> 00:51:44.595 and, uh, he used that time to. 00:51:44.945 --> 00:51:49.175 Be able to study fellow, uh, prisoners, um, that were in there. 00:51:49.645 --> 00:51:53.905 Uh, and he writes his book, you know, from a situation that seems so 00:51:53.925 --> 00:52:00.635 hopeless and what mankind took out of that situation and how they survived. 00:52:01.045 --> 00:52:05.745 Um, it just, it's incredibly emotional, um, but absolutely mind blowing of 00:52:05.745 --> 00:52:08.205 just how resilient we are as a species. 00:52:08.765 --> 00:52:12.355 Travis Bader: Oh, I just find it so crazy and how well that book is written. 00:52:12.565 --> 00:52:17.595 How well he's been put it together and how he's able to take an objective view. 00:52:17.615 --> 00:52:22.775 And he'll admittedly say, I'm trying to be objective here, but I live through this. 00:52:22.805 --> 00:52:25.455 And I realized that there's going to be times with these 00:52:25.455 --> 00:52:26.655 things kind of bleed through. 00:52:28.745 --> 00:52:33.395 He would look at people who are all in the exact circumstance and 00:52:33.395 --> 00:52:34.975 they're all in the exact situation. 00:52:34.975 --> 00:52:36.515 And some people are. 00:52:37.210 --> 00:52:40.820 Have just given up all hope while other people, while they might not be in the 00:52:40.820 --> 00:52:44.210 best of spirits, maybe they can crack a smile and maybe they can tell a joke. 00:52:44.770 --> 00:52:47.760 Why what's the difference between one person and the other, and 00:52:47.770 --> 00:52:52.370 what he boiled it all down to was their ability to choose their own 00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:54.390 attitude in any given circumstance. 00:52:54.700 --> 00:52:56.189 And for me, that has been key. 00:52:56.470 --> 00:53:00.000 Hugely powerful that my attitude is a choice. 00:53:00.310 --> 00:53:04.930 If I can wake up grumpy, then I can wake up happy too. 00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:06.440 Like that's my choice. 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:06.890 Right. 00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:12.090 So yeah, that, that is, that's a very good book. 00:53:12.140 --> 00:53:15.190 Is that one that you, uh, read through your, your studies? 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:16.390 Megan Hine: Yes. 00:53:16.430 --> 00:53:19.160 Yeah, it was, um, it was, I just found it. 00:53:19.160 --> 00:53:20.510 I found it fascinating because I was. 00:53:21.425 --> 00:53:26.355 Consumed by the, that question of like, why do some people walk 00:53:26.375 --> 00:53:31.255 out of a survival situation and almost thrive in that situation? 00:53:31.255 --> 00:53:33.345 Whereas others don't walk out. 00:53:34.375 --> 00:53:38.515 And oftentimes it's the people that you, that society would least 00:53:38.515 --> 00:53:42.195 expect to survive, um, that do. 00:53:42.325 --> 00:53:44.205 And it's like, well, what's, what's the difference? 00:53:44.205 --> 00:53:46.895 You know, how come are there at least like young children walking 00:53:46.895 --> 00:53:49.185 out of jungle survival experiences? 00:53:49.725 --> 00:53:50.780 Um, Yeah. 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:55.100 What's the difference here, uh, between, you know, wouldn't think about like a 00:53:55.140 --> 00:53:59.040 plane crash between other passengers that may have survived that plane crash. 00:53:59.050 --> 00:54:00.980 Why did they not walk out as well? 00:54:01.420 --> 00:54:06.100 Um, it's just, I find it absolutely fascinating and yeah. 00:54:06.520 --> 00:54:11.430 And sort of how you build resilience, uh, in people, um, without breaking them. 00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:14.420 Travis Bader: When you're working on these sets and you're rigging, 00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:17.600 do you ever find the psychology side start coming through as well? 00:54:17.910 --> 00:54:21.830 Where you're having to deal with different people who you might have to give a pep 00:54:21.830 --> 00:54:26.050 talk to, or put things in perspective to, and if so, do you have examples? 00:54:27.195 --> 00:54:27.625 Megan Hine: Yes. 00:54:27.625 --> 00:54:27.865 Yeah. 00:54:28.285 --> 00:54:32.425 Um, so, so on some of the, um, on some of the running wilds, actually like 00:54:32.465 --> 00:54:35.275 these, the shows that it was working on, it was like, I wasn't actually 00:54:35.275 --> 00:54:41.565 allowed to interact with, um, some of the participants on it because it would, 00:54:41.905 --> 00:54:44.555 cause they don't, they'd be looking for me cause there was something. 00:54:44.755 --> 00:54:47.615 But it's like, they'd say that if we see, if we know you, if you know that you're 00:54:47.615 --> 00:54:52.395 there and because you're such a calming presence, that we know that we're safe. 00:54:52.435 --> 00:54:54.335 And it's like, well, that's not the, that's not what the 00:54:54.395 --> 00:54:55.325 producers want out of it. 00:54:55.325 --> 00:54:57.274 They 00:54:57.275 --> 00:54:58.725 Travis Bader: want you to feel on the edge. 00:54:59.135 --> 00:54:59.415 Megan Hine: Yeah. 00:54:59.415 --> 00:55:00.455 They want you to be shooting yourself. 00:55:00.455 --> 00:55:05.265 So, um, yeah, but, but definitely, I mean, you just like, you don't know. 00:55:05.265 --> 00:55:09.245 And it's like with the running wilds as well, like with those ones, it's like 00:55:09.255 --> 00:55:10.965 you're, you're taking people out of. 00:55:12.695 --> 00:55:17.705 Yes, they might be mega celebrities or major faces of politics, but 00:55:17.705 --> 00:55:21.335 you're taking them out of their everyday life, and you're thrusting 00:55:21.335 --> 00:55:22.945 them straight into this environment. 00:55:22.955 --> 00:55:24.925 They've been picked up by helicopter, they've been chucked 00:55:24.925 --> 00:55:26.035 out into the environment. 00:55:26.315 --> 00:55:29.445 Typically, there's a very short walk and then they're into a rappel or into 00:55:29.455 --> 00:55:31.255 white water or whatever it might be. 00:55:31.645 --> 00:55:34.950 Um, and it's like, you know, these, these are people who are like, are not 00:55:34.970 --> 00:55:38.360 allowed to do their own stunts usually because it's too expensive to insure them. 00:55:40.870 --> 00:55:43.090 They've handed over the responsibility for their life and they're 00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:45.150 in this crazy ass situation. 00:55:45.150 --> 00:55:46.750 They've got no idea what's coming next. 00:55:47.230 --> 00:55:50.170 Um, and I have got a huge respect for that. 00:55:50.290 --> 00:55:52.750 And it's like, it's like people going on expeditions as well. 00:55:52.750 --> 00:55:55.440 You know, the clients that sign up, um, to go on trips. 00:55:56.520 --> 00:55:57.680 Um, and. 00:55:59.030 --> 00:56:04.520 I think going on an expedition with clients, I try to do one or two a 00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:09.270 year, um, around, fitted in around the TV work, just because it's a 00:56:09.270 --> 00:56:10.640 completely different experience. 00:56:11.110 --> 00:56:16.310 Um, and I see it as just this, it's just the most amazing, um, thing to be 00:56:16.310 --> 00:56:19.220 able to accompany people on a journey. 00:56:19.565 --> 00:56:24.105 Which they did, they don't know whether they're physically and mentally capable of 00:56:24.195 --> 00:56:29.165 and seeing them achieve and actually being part of that, that roller coaster, um, 00:56:29.165 --> 00:56:33.875 of emotion and it's, it's just incredible and like just seeing what, what people 00:56:33.875 --> 00:56:40.645 can achieve, like summits or jungle treks and survival situations and seeing them 00:56:40.645 --> 00:56:42.835 come out the other side, just phenomenal. 00:56:44.050 --> 00:56:47.770 Travis Bader: You know, I, growing up, I always had the mindset, I'm tough. 00:56:47.850 --> 00:56:48.740 I can do this. 00:56:48.740 --> 00:56:49.160 I'm tough. 00:56:49.160 --> 00:56:49.840 I'll keep pushing. 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:50.400 I'm in pain. 00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:51.160 I can push through. 00:56:51.160 --> 00:56:51.610 I'm tough. 00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:52.250 I can do it. 00:56:52.250 --> 00:56:52.490 Right. 00:56:52.490 --> 00:56:55.940 And I just, the mantra on my head, I can, I can, I can. 00:56:55.940 --> 00:56:57.020 I'll just keep playing it through. 00:56:57.730 --> 00:57:02.500 It doesn't matter how cold I am, how wet I am, how injured or how hurt I am. 00:57:02.500 --> 00:57:03.340 I'll just keep going. 00:57:03.980 --> 00:57:06.500 And I thought that was, you know, that's how you get tough. 00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:12.280 And I remember a friend of mine, he, uh, first came back from the British army. 00:57:12.280 --> 00:57:15.750 He's been on the podcast before Jason Bud and he's a. 00:57:16.720 --> 00:57:23.260 Uh, mountain guide now, but, uh, we go out in the hills with him and, uh, you know, 00:57:23.300 --> 00:57:25.020 we're going up, I don't want to complain. 00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:27.010 My feet are, my feet are bleeding. 00:57:27.010 --> 00:57:27.930 They got blisters. 00:57:27.930 --> 00:57:29.290 And he's like, well, hold on a second. 00:57:29.890 --> 00:57:30.520 Let's just stop. 00:57:30.530 --> 00:57:31.120 Let's sit down. 00:57:31.160 --> 00:57:33.780 Let's have a quick brew, have a brew up a cup of tea. 00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:34.040 Right. 00:57:34.040 --> 00:57:37.210 And, uh, let's administrate yourself is what he would say. 00:57:37.585 --> 00:57:44.215 And that's something that, uh, it, it makes that mental game so much easier 00:57:44.215 --> 00:57:49.215 when your body's in the, in a position where it's comfortable and relaxed. 00:57:49.275 --> 00:57:52.715 And I would look at what I was able to accomplish with my tough 00:57:52.755 --> 00:57:56.255 mindset, as opposed to what I was able to accomplish with the. 00:57:56.565 --> 00:57:57.145 Okay. 00:57:57.195 --> 00:58:00.725 If, if I, if I have something slipping on my pack, I stop, 00:58:00.725 --> 00:58:01.875 I administrate, I get it on. 00:58:02.165 --> 00:58:02.745 I'm hungry. 00:58:02.785 --> 00:58:05.735 I sit down, I have some food, have a tea and I move on. 00:58:06.375 --> 00:58:10.395 And all of a sudden we're traveling way further, covering way more 00:58:10.395 --> 00:58:15.245 ground in a comfortable way than I ever was able to do with this. 00:58:15.335 --> 00:58:16.685 I'm tough attitude. 00:58:17.245 --> 00:58:20.345 Megan Hine: Do you think that's because you've got a feeling of more control 00:58:20.345 --> 00:58:25.385 over that situation because you've now can stop and you can sort yourself out. 00:58:27.040 --> 00:58:28.150 Travis Bader: You know, that's a good point. 00:58:28.170 --> 00:58:30.310 And I never really looked at it from that perspective. 00:58:30.390 --> 00:58:34.240 I always just looked at it as, you know, if I'm freezing and I'm cold, 00:58:34.250 --> 00:58:35.920 but I'll just move faster, right. 00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:38.660 As opposed to maybe I'll put a jacket on, right. 00:58:38.660 --> 00:58:39.350 It's in my pack. 00:58:39.710 --> 00:58:40.850 I'm carrying it anyways. 00:58:40.850 --> 00:58:41.190 Right. 00:58:41.970 --> 00:58:43.650 Maybe I just put this jacket on. 00:58:43.905 --> 00:58:45.455 Megan Hine: Oh, we're all guilty of that though. 00:58:45.475 --> 00:58:47.415 It's just like, keep going. 00:58:47.435 --> 00:58:49.265 And then it's like, you know, half an hour later, you're just 00:58:49.265 --> 00:58:50.235 like, well, that was stupid. 00:58:51.045 --> 00:58:51.875 Travis Bader: Yeah, exactly. 00:58:52.145 --> 00:58:57.135 But, but the mind, the mind will go to some dark places when you're right. 00:58:57.175 --> 00:59:00.625 When, when you're out there and you're tired and you're cold and you're hungry. 00:59:01.035 --> 00:59:01.705 Megan Hine: Tripping. 00:59:02.455 --> 00:59:02.915 Travis Bader: Right. 00:59:02.915 --> 00:59:06.615 And when I, you're stumbling over everything, having a 00:59:06.615 --> 00:59:08.025 hard time keeping your feet. 00:59:08.845 --> 00:59:10.865 And I find. 00:59:11.905 --> 00:59:15.995 The second that I sit down and administrate myself, all of 00:59:15.995 --> 00:59:18.455 a sudden, those dark clouds don't look quite as dark. 00:59:19.715 --> 00:59:22.575 The end goal doesn't seem quite as daunting. 00:59:22.825 --> 00:59:23.475 And so that. 00:59:24.405 --> 00:59:31.265 That was my introduction into the mental role on the, uh, on the 00:59:31.275 --> 00:59:34.975 physical survival and the physical, uh, Outcome and performance. 00:59:34.975 --> 00:59:37.765 And I've become fascinated with that sense. 00:59:38.185 --> 00:59:41.125 Nowhere near at the level where you're at, but this is why I 00:59:41.125 --> 00:59:44.515 love having conversations with people like you, because I just 00:59:44.515 --> 00:59:46.365 find it absolutely fascinating. 00:59:47.325 --> 00:59:49.115 Megan Hine: Well, I think so the more conversations that you can 00:59:49.115 --> 00:59:51.945 have, the more it's like you realize that, you know, our brains all do 00:59:51.945 --> 00:59:53.430 kind of function in the same way. 00:59:53.430 --> 00:59:56.315 And we all do the same daft things. 00:59:56.315 --> 00:59:56.974 Yeah. 00:59:56.975 --> 00:59:57.335 Yeah, 00:59:57.815 --> 00:59:58.545 Travis Bader: I think so. 00:59:59.195 --> 01:00:02.555 Um, is there anything that we haven't talked about that 01:00:02.555 --> 01:00:03.815 we should be talking about? 01:00:05.890 --> 01:00:06.150 Megan Hine: Hmm. 01:00:06.210 --> 01:00:07.160 That's a good question. 01:00:07.550 --> 01:00:11.180 Um, I think this is where like the ADHD brain comes in, cause 01:00:11.180 --> 01:00:12.540 it just jumps all over the place. 01:00:12.540 --> 01:00:13.620 Travis Bader: Oh, geez. 01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:15.640 Oh, I got a whole bunch of places I can jump. 01:00:15.640 --> 01:00:22.330 Megan Hine: Um, I don't know if he's covered, covered, 01:00:22.330 --> 01:00:23.540 uh, some good ground there. 01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:25.070 Travis Bader: Yeah, I do. 01:00:25.510 --> 01:00:32.100 I do think we have, you know, there's also chatting about, um, uh, you, you working 01:00:32.100 --> 01:00:35.810 with people in high risk environments, in trauma filled environments. 01:00:36.075 --> 01:00:39.265 Is, does that, uh, form a large part of what you do? 01:00:40.675 --> 01:00:42.465 Megan Hine: Oh, as in like resilience building? 01:00:42.645 --> 01:00:43.185 Travis Bader: Yes. 01:00:43.835 --> 01:00:44.245 Megan Hine: Yeah. 01:00:44.255 --> 01:00:46.655 Um, yeah, we, we started doing a bit more of that. 01:00:47.385 --> 01:00:52.035 Um, so yeah, so it was working with people and sort of helping build resilience. 01:00:52.085 --> 01:00:57.345 That was something that, um, that I've been really interested in. 01:00:57.375 --> 01:01:00.545 Uh, I'm an ambassador for the British Scout Organization. 01:01:01.045 --> 01:01:03.895 Uh, and the program that they have. 01:01:04.570 --> 01:01:09.900 running at the moment is what they call skills for life, which is recognizes that, 01:01:10.270 --> 01:01:13.400 um, that resilience is built gradually. 01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:18.800 Um, it's, I think for a long time, we've understood that resilience is grows 01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:24.380 through hardship, but if you give somebody too much hardship, um, it can break them. 01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:28.860 And actually that's when you end up with PTSD or CPTA PTSD. 01:01:29.210 --> 01:01:30.390 Um, and. 01:01:31.015 --> 01:01:35.495 So what we're trying to do with the younger people is to build up resilience 01:01:35.525 --> 01:01:39.765 gradually, so encouraging them to expose themselves to lots of different new 01:01:39.765 --> 01:01:44.985 environments and new situations, new skills, um, so it doesn't necessarily 01:01:44.985 --> 01:01:46.775 mean going out and pushing yourself hard. 01:01:47.255 --> 01:01:47.695 outdoors. 01:01:47.695 --> 01:01:51.075 It's, you know, talking to people that you wouldn't normally communicate 01:01:51.075 --> 01:01:55.485 with, um, different ages, different backgrounds, different cultures, etc. 01:01:55.965 --> 01:02:00.995 Um, going into taking on new skills, um, and, and pushing yourself slowly 01:02:00.995 --> 01:02:04.895 and building up that within, I suppose, within a safe, safe space. 01:02:05.405 --> 01:02:12.980 Um, so I, a couple of years ago, was Start was asked to be involved in, 01:02:13.140 --> 01:02:20.059 um, looking at resilience in anti poachers, uh, anti poaching units. 01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:28.070 Um, and we built this program, um, this trial program, um, which is still running, 01:02:28.070 --> 01:02:29.840 which is really, which is really awesome. 01:02:30.250 --> 01:02:32.750 Um, where we went and spent time. 01:02:32.750 --> 01:02:34.100 So they were doing a, like a. 01:02:34.620 --> 01:02:40.150 a three month program, uh, these, uh, rangers from all over Africa came to, 01:02:40.190 --> 01:02:46.705 together, um, and They were, they do this, sort of, train the trainer, they 01:02:46.955 --> 01:02:51.995 train them, train the guys and then put them, give them back out into the field 01:02:51.995 --> 01:02:53.425 and they go and train their troops. 01:02:53.915 --> 01:02:59.365 Um, but this resilience program was just like, well, can we use the same 01:02:59.935 --> 01:03:05.605 uh, sort of psychology as we do in the TV shows in crafting these stories to 01:03:05.605 --> 01:03:12.565 again trigger that fear and anxiety to help them understand fear and anxiety and 01:03:12.575 --> 01:03:15.685 stress and how that affects the system. 01:03:15.865 --> 01:03:20.125 when they are working and living in an environment where they're not going to 01:03:20.135 --> 01:03:22.915 have access to mental health support. 01:03:23.835 --> 01:03:24.225 Travis Bader: Um, 01:03:24.775 --> 01:03:28.095 Megan Hine: so we, we, we're looking at that and like exploring. 01:03:28.095 --> 01:03:30.985 So we were exploring with them, like what fear anxiety is, what 01:03:31.005 --> 01:03:36.455 stress is, uh, built a program of like, um, putting more and more. 01:03:36.885 --> 01:03:43.945 Uh, stress onto them in a controlled environment, uh, and utilizing, for that 01:03:43.945 --> 01:03:49.595 one, we were typically using height, um, when the exposure from that situation, 01:03:49.595 --> 01:03:53.525 so, you know, rock climbing, we built a big via ferrata, which is like a big cable 01:03:53.545 --> 01:03:59.555 system up cliffs, um, which they could move through, um, And sort of building 01:03:59.555 --> 01:04:04.525 up that exposure and talking through it all at each point, uh, in the hope 01:04:04.965 --> 01:04:10.005 that, and we're still seeing the results coming back, in the hope that if we're 01:04:10.005 --> 01:04:14.665 running these, if we're running this and helping them understand, uh, what stress 01:04:14.665 --> 01:04:19.605 is, what anxiety is, and the effects it has on the body and the mind, that, uh, 01:04:19.655 --> 01:04:24.505 that they can actually learn to control it and have some sort of autonomy over 01:04:24.985 --> 01:04:27.405 those, those emotions and the reactions. 01:04:29.170 --> 01:04:32.860 Travis Bader: That's, you know, you raised a lot of, a number 01:04:32.860 --> 01:04:35.220 of good points here growing up. 01:04:35.220 --> 01:04:38.650 I thought it was Conan, the barbarian quote, but I later realized it 01:04:38.660 --> 01:04:41.590 was a Nietzsche quote that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. 01:04:41.600 --> 01:04:41.950 Right. 01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:45.200 Um, it's not true, right? 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.720 It's that which doesn't kill me doesn't necessarily make you stronger. 01:04:48.885 --> 01:04:53.855 Unless you've got the ability to cope with it and to understand what 01:04:53.855 --> 01:04:58.665 you went through and make that into a positive learning experience. 01:04:58.895 --> 01:05:03.185 Because if you just keep piling on trauma and you keep piling on, uh, 01:05:03.195 --> 01:05:06.815 hardships onto a person, eventually it's going to take its toll. 01:05:06.865 --> 01:05:09.355 It's like filling up a bucket of water with all of this stuff. 01:05:09.355 --> 01:05:12.805 We have to find a way to let that kind of come out or, or deal with it. 01:05:12.805 --> 01:05:14.995 And you bring up the idea of stories. 01:05:15.590 --> 01:05:17.090 I think that's pretty cool too. 01:05:17.600 --> 01:05:23.830 I mean, and when they look at, um, when you, when you look at soldiers 01:05:23.830 --> 01:05:30.750 coming back from war and, uh, PTSD, why are they experiencing PTSD? 01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:33.420 Why does some soldiers in some wars have a higher. 01:05:33.695 --> 01:05:35.015 Rate of PTSD. 01:05:35.015 --> 01:05:38.955 And again, my Lehman approach, I don't have any background in this, but if I 01:05:38.955 --> 01:05:42.595 were to look at it, I'd say maybe it's because of the stories that we tell 01:05:42.595 --> 01:05:44.525 ourselves or that are being told about us. 01:05:44.525 --> 01:05:51.065 Like you look at, um, PTSD after, uh, the Vietnam war, where they come. 01:05:51.315 --> 01:05:55.865 Soldiers are coming back and the society's all against them. 01:05:55.985 --> 01:06:00.435 Those social groups, which are integral to people feeling happy. 01:06:00.435 --> 01:06:04.285 According to Harvard seemed all be against the individual. 01:06:04.285 --> 01:06:06.465 The individual says, why did I go out there and do this? 01:06:06.475 --> 01:06:10.495 Whereas in warrior cultures, when they come back from a similar war and they're 01:06:10.505 --> 01:06:14.795 a lot, a lot of those heroes, and they're telling themselves a story, I'm a hero and 01:06:14.795 --> 01:06:19.285 they could have done the exact same thing, but it's a story that we tell ourself, 01:06:19.645 --> 01:06:22.335 I think that plays the integral role. 01:06:23.005 --> 01:06:23.545 Megan Hine: Absolutely. 01:06:23.545 --> 01:06:26.335 And, and also going back to the connection point, it's like, you 01:06:26.335 --> 01:06:31.085 know, there's also the support systems behind, uh, people as well. 01:06:31.085 --> 01:06:35.535 Because, you know, there is, there will be members of the military 01:06:35.535 --> 01:06:40.225 that have gone into, into military service at a very young age to escape 01:06:40.325 --> 01:06:42.355 domestic abuse, domestic violence. 01:06:42.355 --> 01:06:45.945 Um, and it's, so it's, you know, our childhood narratives. 01:06:46.175 --> 01:06:53.385 play into, into these and our ability to be able to cope in situations of stress, 01:06:53.485 --> 01:06:57.685 um, and whether those, our systems have become overloaded and whether it's, 01:06:57.795 --> 01:07:01.995 you know, sometimes situations that we might be faced with are we get triggered 01:07:02.045 --> 01:07:06.175 because we were triggered, you know, because we experienced this and these 01:07:06.175 --> 01:07:10.295 situations when we were, when we were younger and like our formative years. 01:07:11.195 --> 01:07:14.865 You know, up to like sort of the age of seven, really. 01:07:15.215 --> 01:07:19.665 Um, and it's like, you know, it's really, that, that, that is such a sensitive time 01:07:19.665 --> 01:07:22.705 for us, um, in our human development. 01:07:23.135 --> 01:07:27.435 Um, and it's where our brains are, our minds are like acting like 01:07:27.435 --> 01:07:31.805 sponges and soaking up and basically programming us and programming our 01:07:31.805 --> 01:07:33.545 reactions for the rest of our lives. 01:07:33.895 --> 01:07:37.915 Which is why when I'm dealing with people that are getting triggered 01:07:37.915 --> 01:07:41.610 and angry, about a certain situation. 01:07:41.610 --> 01:07:45.310 It's like, it's important to kind of take a breath and recognize the fact that 01:07:45.310 --> 01:07:48.940 you're actually dealing with a toddler, because their reactions to whatever 01:07:48.940 --> 01:07:54.250 the situation is, is being, they're probably being triggered as they were 01:07:54.590 --> 01:07:58.710 when they were a child, because that's how, when they got programmed to react. 01:07:58.710 --> 01:08:02.865 And actually Trying to switch off your own reaction because it's very easy isn't 01:08:02.865 --> 01:08:05.705 it when somebody's having a go at you and you know It's like it's not your fault. 01:08:05.705 --> 01:08:11.905 You're just like the fuck Like oh fuck off and I get and then the situation and 01:08:11.905 --> 01:08:16.950 then you're both acting in this kind of place of fight flight response, um, and 01:08:16.950 --> 01:08:20.600 it's like, you know, logic and reasoning is out the window and we can't achieve, 01:08:20.690 --> 01:08:26.200 um, a goal, whereas actually being able to step back and understanding that this has 01:08:26.200 --> 01:08:29.790 got nothing to do with me, this is like, this person is obviously upset by this 01:08:29.790 --> 01:08:33.250 situation here, but actually, again, it's not this situation here, it's something 01:08:33.290 --> 01:08:34.719 that happened in their childhood. 01:08:35.060 --> 01:08:40.740 Um, that is, that is causing the reaction now, um, and they're, the way they 01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:42.390 interact with the world around them. 01:08:42.390 --> 01:08:45.850 And I think that's something that, you know, we, we just haven't, although 01:08:45.970 --> 01:08:49.580 all of this stuff is now sort of being studied a lot more and being understood 01:08:49.580 --> 01:08:53.630 a lot more, there's still a lot about our minds that isn't understood and 01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:58.530 how they interact with, you know, what society tells us, our past experiences, 01:08:58.530 --> 01:09:00.410 our present experiences, etc. 01:09:00.410 --> 01:09:04.595 And how that all Intermingles, um, to create who we are and our 01:09:04.595 --> 01:09:06.155 reactions to the world around us. 01:09:06.615 --> 01:09:12.195 Um, I think we've still got a long way to go, um, to help protect military 01:09:12.195 --> 01:09:17.155 personnel or people who are operating in high stress environments, you know, um, 01:09:17.475 --> 01:09:19.865 paramedics, doctors, nurses, et cetera. 01:09:20.985 --> 01:09:26.245 Travis Bader: So how do you recognize in yourself that you're becoming overloaded? 01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:29.290 Are there indicators that you can pick up on? 01:09:30.820 --> 01:09:33.260 Megan Hine: Yeah, I think, and this is something where it's like this whole 01:09:33.270 --> 01:09:34.810 kind of like self awareness and things. 01:09:34.810 --> 01:09:37.910 And I know that there's a lot of stuff on social media that makes you think 01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:42.570 all of this is like really hippie esque and, um, kind of woo woo and it's, it's 01:09:42.590 --> 01:09:46.960 very easy to dismiss it, but you know, behind all of the pseudoscience and 01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:51.615 stuff, there is actually, um, you know, there, there is a real, Uh thing here and 01:09:51.625 --> 01:09:55.555 actually having going back to what you were saying, you know about being present 01:09:55.795 --> 01:10:00.465 Um and recognizing in yourself So, you know for me when we're talking about like 01:10:00.465 --> 01:10:04.205 the the sort of ADHD side of things and like for me I know it's like a panic. 01:10:04.535 --> 01:10:05.555 I feel it in my chest. 01:10:05.555 --> 01:10:09.845 It's quite a physical Um feeling that I feel in my chest and if I start 01:10:09.845 --> 01:10:14.555 feeling that Um, I know that the sort of panic's starting to rise in me And 01:10:14.555 --> 01:10:22.025 I know that I'm then not going to be operating in my more human brain, which 01:10:22.025 --> 01:10:23.875 is where logic and reasoning live. 01:10:24.125 --> 01:10:28.675 Um, I'm going to be operating in the stress response and fight and flight. 01:10:29.135 --> 01:10:32.504 Um, and it's so, so when I get an email in. 01:10:32.605 --> 01:10:37.015 And sometimes you, cause it's, it's very easy to misread or misunderstand, 01:10:37.155 --> 01:10:41.455 you know, a text message or an email and it's so easy to read it coming 01:10:41.455 --> 01:10:42.965 in and just be like, what the fuck? 01:10:42.975 --> 01:10:43.385 And like, 01:10:43.385 --> 01:10:44.214 Travis Bader: you 01:10:44.215 --> 01:10:46.685 Megan Hine: want to get back on, like, straight back on the email and just like, 01:10:49.045 --> 01:10:53.155 yeah, definitely in that moment, it's like, I mean, we're all, we're all guilty 01:10:53.155 --> 01:10:56.975 of it, and we all do it, but it's in that moment of recognizing, it's like, 01:10:56.985 --> 01:10:58.645 hang on a minute, why am I triggered? 01:10:58.945 --> 01:11:02.395 Like, what is it about this situation that's, that's triggering me? 01:11:02.745 --> 01:11:07.025 Um, and oftentimes it comes down to your own, like, self doubt, and actually, 01:11:07.025 --> 01:11:10.225 when you step back, it's like, it's not actually worded that badly, or if the 01:11:10.225 --> 01:11:13.565 person was typing it too fast, and, yeah. 01:11:14.425 --> 01:11:15.055 Travis Bader: Yeah, I think very 01:11:15.470 --> 01:11:16.390 Megan Hine: rarely personal 01:11:17.335 --> 01:11:20.875 . Travis Bader: I think that's why they made emoticons, because we have 01:11:20.875 --> 01:11:24.625 gotten so bad at the written language, at conveying what we actually mean. 01:11:24.625 --> 01:11:28.135 We'll type something out with the best intentions, and it comes across to the 01:11:28.135 --> 01:11:30.565 other person as why would they say that? 01:11:30.565 --> 01:11:35.275 But if I put a laughy face at the end, or if I put this emoticon, then they know 01:11:35.275 --> 01:11:36.925 kind of where I'm at and what I'm feeling. 01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:38.060 So 01:11:38.620 --> 01:11:39.880 Megan Hine: aggressive emojis, 01:11:40.370 --> 01:11:40.740 Travis Bader: right? 01:11:41.610 --> 01:11:45.410 And I find it so easy and you get an email like that coming in, 01:11:45.540 --> 01:11:49.820 um, I just sit on them and I just wait or a text, I'll just wait. 01:11:50.300 --> 01:11:54.485 Um, some, some places I'll say like, Dealing with government bodies. 01:11:54.505 --> 01:11:57.195 I'll be, excuse me, 01:12:03.035 --> 01:12:04.425 dealing with government bodies. 01:12:04.445 --> 01:12:06.855 I'll say, I respond to my emails on Wednesday. 01:12:06.885 --> 01:12:09.355 Is this an important matter that needs to be addressed before then? 01:12:09.355 --> 01:12:10.535 Or can it wait till Wednesday? 01:12:10.595 --> 01:12:11.915 And they'll let me know. 01:12:11.915 --> 01:12:12.585 Yes or no. 01:12:12.595 --> 01:12:16.515 Next Wednesday comes up and I'll say, still working on my response. 01:12:16.705 --> 01:12:18.395 I'm not ready yet. 01:12:18.415 --> 01:12:21.045 I'll have to do it next Wednesday, but I've become very disciplined 01:12:21.045 --> 01:12:22.885 in my approach to how I deal with. 01:12:23.260 --> 01:12:28.370 Um, messages and emails as if they could be read at a later date. 01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:32.110 I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's a smart thing to do, or if 01:12:32.110 --> 01:12:33.950 that's overly cautious thing to do. 01:12:33.980 --> 01:12:38.290 But I always think if somebody coming in and looking at this from 01:12:38.290 --> 01:12:41.760 a completely outside perspective, saw it, what would they have to say? 01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:42.259 And. 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:45.870 That's, that's the approach that I typically take with emails. 01:12:45.870 --> 01:12:46.000 I think 01:12:46.470 --> 01:12:47.320 Megan Hine: that's very smart. 01:12:47.320 --> 01:12:51.070 I mean, you see like, you know, the, the cases that are in the media at the 01:12:51.070 --> 01:12:55.440 moment, like the big cases around, you know, it's hard to like, not to have 01:12:55.440 --> 01:13:01.100 seen these things, you know, with Blake Lively and, um, Justin Baldoni and 01:13:01.300 --> 01:13:02.820 you're seeing this case and it's like. 01:13:03.440 --> 01:13:05.830 All of their messages are just being shared out there. 01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:07.680 So I'm, I'm the same as you now. 01:13:07.680 --> 01:13:11.680 It's like, whenever I send them a WhatsApp, whether it's to a friend, to 01:13:11.680 --> 01:13:15.360 anybody now, it's just assuming that it's going to be forwarded on or shared. 01:13:15.670 --> 01:13:15.820 Yes. 01:13:16.590 --> 01:13:17.450 And yeah. 01:13:17.450 --> 01:13:19.400 And, and, and also, I mean, it's sad, isn't it? 01:13:19.400 --> 01:13:21.740 That we have to get to this stage, but it's, you know, keeping up 01:13:21.740 --> 01:13:24.240 with the IT, particularly with, you know, the work that I do where, 01:13:25.150 --> 01:13:27.580 um, you know, oftentimes it's like. 01:13:27.860 --> 01:13:29.770 advising in an advisory role. 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:33.190 Um, and you know, maybe something's happening that's, I don't think it's 01:13:33.190 --> 01:13:37.650 safe, um, on set or I don't think that, you know, this isn't going 01:13:37.650 --> 01:13:40.910 to work or somebody's going to get hurt of making sure that it's all 01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:45.670 like documented in email chains and things, um, you know, to, to protect 01:13:45.670 --> 01:13:47.520 yourself as much as, as possible. 01:13:47.730 --> 01:13:50.240 And it's, I mean, it's sad that we're at this stage, uh, but 01:13:50.240 --> 01:13:51.580 it's, but it is really important. 01:13:51.620 --> 01:13:54.090 And I think, again, it's even more important not to get triggered 01:13:54.620 --> 01:13:56.330 because otherwise it might come back to haunt you later. 01:13:57.295 --> 01:14:00.305 Travis Bader: Yeah, there's a real compartmentalization that needs to happen. 01:14:00.305 --> 01:14:03.115 It's like, okay, I've said my piece, they're going to go ahead with it. 01:14:03.135 --> 01:14:04.165 I have to make a decision. 01:14:04.595 --> 01:14:08.305 Do I continue on this show or do I continue consulting with this person? 01:14:08.305 --> 01:14:09.945 Do we wrap it up at the end of this one? 01:14:09.945 --> 01:14:12.025 And I, and I take a different approach. 01:14:12.735 --> 01:14:17.235 I do consulting for a number of different law firms and there's some law firms 01:14:17.235 --> 01:14:19.845 that I'll, I'll never consult for again. 01:14:19.845 --> 01:14:20.245 And I'll just. 01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:23.800 Tell them right off the bat, if they're looking for an end outcome 01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:29.130 and, you know, I'm hired as a subject matter expert for the courts, not 01:14:29.130 --> 01:14:33.830 for you and not for your client, I'm sitting here trying to give the courts 01:14:33.830 --> 01:14:37.610 the best idea from my perspective as to what's kind of happening. 01:14:38.220 --> 01:14:40.870 And I got to imagine that's probably a very similar approach 01:14:40.870 --> 01:14:43.540 when you're consulting on these sets, you're not there for the set. 01:14:43.830 --> 01:14:45.890 You're not, you're there for, for safety. 01:14:46.095 --> 01:14:48.685 You're there first and foremost to make sure that people are 01:14:48.685 --> 01:14:50.785 going to be safe and effective. 01:14:51.555 --> 01:14:52.015 Megan Hine: Yes. 01:14:52.025 --> 01:14:52.945 Yeah, absolutely. 01:14:52.945 --> 01:14:58.415 I mean, there is, um, part of the, I suppose people is looking at like the 01:14:58.415 --> 01:15:03.165 financial protecting, you know, protecting shows, but also, you know, protecting, 01:15:03.205 --> 01:15:06.805 um, protecting the people involved. 01:15:06.915 --> 01:15:12.415 Um, it's, it's my, it's primary role, um, on that. 01:15:12.535 --> 01:15:16.205 Um, and yeah, sometimes it is particularly like sort of high. 01:15:17.295 --> 01:15:21.045 highly dynamic situations, it can be quite, quite difficult. 01:15:21.175 --> 01:15:26.375 And, um, I, what I find as well is that we get a lot of, you know, producers, 01:15:26.905 --> 01:15:31.055 um, you know, maybe coming in from LA or from London and, you know, don't 01:15:31.085 --> 01:15:36.230 really have a huge amount of outdoor experience, um, but have been doing these 01:15:36.230 --> 01:15:41.700 shows and have become a bit desensitized to the fact that we're not in a studio. 01:15:42.080 --> 01:15:45.690 And just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean that it won't happen. 01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:49.680 And it's like, it's what we call a heuristic trap of like, you know, 01:15:49.680 --> 01:15:51.230 nothing's, nothing's happened. 01:15:51.230 --> 01:15:52.360 So, you know, we're fine. 01:15:52.360 --> 01:15:55.570 And we stopped thinking about it and we stopped reading the environment around us. 01:15:56.030 --> 01:15:59.995 Um, you know, like Avalanche is a A good example of this, of like, you know, 01:15:59.995 --> 01:16:04.145 travelling over snowy terrain, and it's like, there's never been an avalanche 01:16:04.145 --> 01:16:07.265 this time of year before, it's like, people just aren't thinking about it, 01:16:07.305 --> 01:16:12.145 but actually, the avalanche goes off, and then, then it's like, oh yeah, 01:16:12.195 --> 01:16:16.475 there was like, there was wind from this direction, and there was unusual amount 01:16:16.475 --> 01:16:20.745 of snow, etc, etc, and suddenly, like, actually all of the signs were there in 01:16:20.755 --> 01:16:25.955 the environment, um, but that, people fell into that trap, and didn't read it. 01:16:26.715 --> 01:16:27.385 Travis Bader: Right. 01:16:28.415 --> 01:16:31.015 Gavin DeBecker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear. 01:16:31.645 --> 01:16:37.135 And he talks about, uh, trusting your gut is a big core message on there. 01:16:37.145 --> 01:16:40.625 Women have women's intuition, men have their gut feeling, right? 01:16:41.080 --> 01:16:47.020 But don't try to analyze why your gut feels a certain way, trust 01:16:47.020 --> 01:16:49.140 the gut later in a safe area. 01:16:49.140 --> 01:16:51.950 You can go and you can try and analyze why that is and do all of that. 01:16:51.950 --> 01:16:57.860 But, um, they talk about people so often they find themselves in 01:16:57.860 --> 01:17:00.880 a violent encounter and they turn around afterwards and say, well, 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:02.460 I'm Well, all the signs were there. 01:17:02.700 --> 01:17:08.170 Well, if all the signs were there to begin with, then some part of you should 01:17:08.170 --> 01:17:09.520 have been able to pick up on that. 01:17:09.530 --> 01:17:13.000 And more often than not for me, anyways, I find my gut is the first thing that 01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:14.730 picks up on something's not right. 01:17:14.750 --> 01:17:15.310 What's not right. 01:17:15.340 --> 01:17:17.810 I don't know, but I'm going to extract myself in this situation. 01:17:18.070 --> 01:17:18.870 We'll try and figure it out. 01:17:18.870 --> 01:17:23.260 Put my ego aside because it's so easy to want to push on through and, and, 01:17:23.260 --> 01:17:26.190 um, let that male ego get, get involved. 01:17:26.190 --> 01:17:26.340 Right. 01:17:27.280 --> 01:17:29.840 Megan Hine: But do you think that goes back to that, um, when we were 01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:34.020 talking about earlier about, you know, spending more time in a, in like the 01:17:34.020 --> 01:17:37.900 outdoor environment and actually taking ownership, that actually you know 01:17:37.950 --> 01:17:43.080 that listening to that intuition or that gut feeling, um, is important. 01:17:43.160 --> 01:17:47.040 Um, whereas if you haven't spent much time in those environments where you 01:17:47.040 --> 01:17:50.380 actually have to take ownership for yourself, that it's very easy to, 01:17:50.760 --> 01:17:52.640 to dismiss it and get into trouble. 01:17:53.550 --> 01:17:54.250 Travis Bader: I think so. 01:17:54.290 --> 01:17:59.410 I also think just like you talk about this, uh, hippie frou frou type of, uh, 01:17:59.530 --> 01:18:04.370 uh, stuff that's out there about energies and, uh, uh, whatever it might be. 01:18:04.880 --> 01:18:08.560 I think there's so much in this world that we just don't truly understand. 01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:09.910 We're always learning new things. 01:18:09.910 --> 01:18:11.789 Science is always uncovering new things. 01:18:12.070 --> 01:18:15.730 If we do get these weird feelings, what's the worst that's going 01:18:15.730 --> 01:18:17.300 to happen if I act on this? 01:18:17.570 --> 01:18:19.150 Maybe I don't get a summit today. 01:18:19.650 --> 01:18:21.940 Maybe I don't go into this one location. 01:18:22.390 --> 01:18:26.760 I walk into going into a pub and you see all the motorcycles outside and, 01:18:27.240 --> 01:18:31.540 and, uh, I don't know, it looks a little seedy and you walk inside the front door 01:18:31.550 --> 01:18:33.530 and everyone stops and staring at you. 01:18:33.530 --> 01:18:33.920 All right. 01:18:34.740 --> 01:18:35.430 I'm a big guy. 01:18:35.430 --> 01:18:36.040 I'm tough. 01:18:36.070 --> 01:18:37.340 I'm not going to turn around. 01:18:37.360 --> 01:18:38.430 Or maybe the gut says. 01:18:38.695 --> 01:18:40.285 Yeah, maybe this isn't the place I want to be. 01:18:40.335 --> 01:18:43.305 And I can figure it out after whatever, whatever the situation somebody 01:18:43.305 --> 01:18:46.795 wants to relate to, whether that's in a city environment or an outdoor 01:18:46.795 --> 01:18:52.375 environment, but I think there's more to the world than we truly comprehend. 01:18:53.015 --> 01:18:58.685 And if it's not going to, uh, grossly hurt you or inconvenience you, what's 01:18:58.705 --> 01:18:59.705 the harm in listening to that guy. 01:19:00.365 --> 01:19:04.105 Megan Hine: Yeah, my, my, my theory on this is that, like, if you think about, 01:19:04.105 --> 01:19:09.205 like, the brain as, as an iceberg and it's, like, the, the conscious part of 01:19:09.205 --> 01:19:12.695 our brain, so, like, our thoughts and things are, like, the tip of the iceberg, 01:19:12.735 --> 01:19:17.855 there's only a tiny, tiny percentage of what's, of our brain functioning that is 01:19:17.855 --> 01:19:21.755 conscious, that we're even aware of, the rest of it is all underneath the water, 01:19:21.755 --> 01:19:26.645 it's the rest, the, the big bulk of the iceberg underneath the water, and our 01:19:26.645 --> 01:19:32.015 subconscious chooses The, the messages that it sends through to the conscious 01:19:32.015 --> 01:19:33.795 again to keep, help keep us safe. 01:19:34.195 --> 01:19:38.935 And I, I, I believe that like the intuition and the gut feelings are like 01:19:38.935 --> 01:19:44.145 a partially formed image that you're, the subconscious has picked up on like. 01:19:44.250 --> 01:19:45.090 Ooh, danger. 01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:47.750 Um, and it's sent through like a partially formed image. 01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:50.410 It hasn't sent through the full, full details. 01:19:51.070 --> 01:19:54.630 And actually, if you zone in and you're like, hang on a minute, it's like 01:19:54.630 --> 01:19:56.090 my brain's picked up on something. 01:19:56.470 --> 01:19:59.920 Like, let's get the conscious part now in like what is going on here. 01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:04.060 Um, then often, you know, you can then put the pieces together because 01:20:04.070 --> 01:20:06.500 we are, It is our natural habitat. 01:20:06.570 --> 01:20:09.950 You know, like when you go out the door in the morning and it's like, it's kind of 01:20:09.950 --> 01:20:13.480 blue sky, but you're just like, Oh, I'll just take my, take my rain jacket with me. 01:20:13.850 --> 01:20:14.320 Right. 01:20:14.650 --> 01:20:15.930 Half an hour later it's raining. 01:20:15.930 --> 01:20:19.710 And you're just like, Oh, that was a bit of like automatic response. 01:20:19.710 --> 01:20:23.770 But it's like, but your, your body might, you know, it's our environment is picked 01:20:23.770 --> 01:20:25.920 up on that, the messages and you've acted. 01:20:26.430 --> 01:20:29.740 Um, and it's, you know, we should, I think we really should listen to it more, 01:20:29.740 --> 01:20:31.310 but you know, we teach young people. 01:20:31.310 --> 01:20:34.160 I don't know it's like in Canada, but certainly here in the UK, it's like. 01:20:34.425 --> 01:20:38.655 We teach young people to override their intuition, you know, around people, like 01:20:38.655 --> 01:20:42.105 first meetings with, you know, always treat people how you wish to be treated. 01:20:42.195 --> 01:20:44.355 It's like, well, no, listen to your intuition. 01:20:44.355 --> 01:20:47.815 If you get a bad vibe about somebody, like, listen to that. 01:20:49.435 --> 01:20:50.325 Travis Bader: I like that a lot. 01:20:50.425 --> 01:20:52.625 And I like that example of going outside and bringing a jacket. 01:20:53.220 --> 01:20:55.980 Maybe it smells different, but you didn't really pick up on that. 01:20:56.190 --> 01:20:59.480 Maybe the birds aren't making their normal sounds, but you didn't pick up on that. 01:20:59.480 --> 01:21:01.130 But there's all these things that are kind of going on. 01:21:01.130 --> 01:21:06.390 Maybe it just feels different against your skin, but you're not picking up on it, 01:21:06.910 --> 01:21:10.470 but there's something deep down that tells you, maybe I should bring that jacket. 01:21:10.770 --> 01:21:11.820 And yeah, as kids, yeah. 01:21:12.270 --> 01:21:14.870 You know, respect your elders, treat people as you want to be treated. 01:21:15.715 --> 01:21:17.575 Uh, no respect is earned. 01:21:17.905 --> 01:21:23.385 And if the elder is not respect, is not earning respect, then you don't, um, 01:21:24.085 --> 01:21:27.195 you don't give it to them and treating other people as you'd like to be treated. 01:21:27.875 --> 01:21:28.215 Yeah. 01:21:28.265 --> 01:21:29.565 Within reason, of course. 01:21:30.135 --> 01:21:35.355 Um, you mentioned that anxiety feeling that you feel, and you, I think you 01:21:35.355 --> 01:21:40.265 touched your chest when you, when you said that you feel internally, I'm curious 01:21:40.295 --> 01:21:44.745 when you get that overloaded, overwhelmed, or sort of that anxiety feeling, 01:21:45.035 --> 01:21:46.725 and you recognize that's happening. 01:21:47.235 --> 01:21:48.805 What steps do you take after that? 01:21:50.075 --> 01:21:50.475 Megan Hine: Yeah. 01:21:50.475 --> 01:21:55.615 So, um, I don't always do this cause I think, cause I can be pretty stubborn and 01:21:55.615 --> 01:21:59.465 it's like, if I'm focused on something, um, but it's usually to my detriment. 01:21:59.475 --> 01:22:01.605 So, um, I recognize it. 01:22:01.685 --> 01:22:03.345 I'll stop, stop what I'm doing. 01:22:03.625 --> 01:22:06.385 Um, and try to breathe. 01:22:06.775 --> 01:22:10.705 But what really helps me is just going out for going out for a run earlier. 01:22:10.705 --> 01:22:13.545 Cause I was having to make some pretty big decisions earlier today. 01:22:14.290 --> 01:22:16.100 And it's like I'd scheduled, like, for my run. 01:22:16.100 --> 01:22:19.600 I live in Snowdonia in North Wales, like in the mountains. 01:22:19.650 --> 01:22:22.690 Um, and I'd scheduled my run in for later. 01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:25.410 Um, but I was just like, actually, you know what? 01:22:25.410 --> 01:22:27.120 I'm gonna go now because I need this. 01:22:27.140 --> 01:22:31.110 It's like, if I sit here now, I know that, like, you know, I'm gonna 01:22:31.120 --> 01:22:32.680 have a physical response to this. 01:22:32.720 --> 01:22:36.075 And then my mind is gonna start Playing out these negative 01:22:36.475 --> 01:22:38.075 narratives, which are not true. 01:22:38.075 --> 01:22:41.075 And, um, I just need to go out and move. 01:22:41.165 --> 01:22:43.695 And it's just like, you know, went out and like literally within a couple of 01:22:43.695 --> 01:22:45.805 minutes, it's like, oh, here we go. 01:22:46.075 --> 01:22:46.955 There's the solution. 01:22:47.465 --> 01:22:49.155 And it's like, it's magic. 01:22:49.185 --> 01:22:54.325 Like, so moving, being outside and moving is like, is my therapy. 01:22:56.055 --> 01:22:57.225 Travis Bader: I agree with that one. 01:22:57.255 --> 01:22:57.445 Yeah. 01:22:57.685 --> 01:23:03.155 Going for a run, going for a walk, just being outside, you know, I do this with 01:23:03.155 --> 01:23:07.585 my kids, I haven't had to do it in a long time, When they're growing up and, and 01:23:07.585 --> 01:23:11.325 they're, uh, excited about something. 01:23:11.755 --> 01:23:13.455 I'll say, well, just sit down for a second. 01:23:13.815 --> 01:23:14.345 Okay. 01:23:14.785 --> 01:23:17.805 Do you hear, and I mentioned something. 01:23:17.815 --> 01:23:19.125 Do you hear the refrigerator? 01:23:19.455 --> 01:23:19.865 No. 01:23:20.215 --> 01:23:20.445 Okay. 01:23:20.445 --> 01:23:22.425 We'll sit down and wait until you can hear it. 01:23:23.175 --> 01:23:23.555 Okay. 01:23:23.605 --> 01:23:24.265 I hear it now. 01:23:25.455 --> 01:23:26.955 Do you hear cars outside? 01:23:27.305 --> 01:23:27.755 No. 01:23:27.795 --> 01:23:28.045 Okay. 01:23:28.045 --> 01:23:29.095 We'll sit down and wait till you hear it. 01:23:29.105 --> 01:23:30.215 Do you hear the birds outside? 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:31.200 No. 01:23:31.210 --> 01:23:31.530 Okay. 01:23:32.030 --> 01:23:36.210 And I'd use, and I, and you can do it with any one of your senses, touch 01:23:36.220 --> 01:23:40.380 and smell and, and feel, but I'd, I'd always use the hearing part because 01:23:40.380 --> 01:23:43.510 I found in order for me to hear these really quiet things, I have to 01:23:43.510 --> 01:23:46.040 stop and kind of be calm and I find. 01:23:47.300 --> 01:23:47.510 Yeah. 01:23:47.510 --> 01:23:50.120 And I, and I found that to be a good approach with them. 01:23:50.430 --> 01:23:52.510 All of a sudden they're now present. 01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:54.870 They're out of that environment where they're just, they're in their 01:23:54.880 --> 01:23:56.660 head and they're all worked up. 01:23:57.370 --> 01:24:03.710 And, uh, for me, I found, I find that to be a good way to, uh, decompress. 01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:07.730 And so when I'm out for a run or I'm out for a walk or whatever 01:24:07.730 --> 01:24:09.010 it might be, I'm out hiking. 01:24:09.795 --> 01:24:15.535 Um, I find the exercise is a very valuable thing for me, but unless I'm actually 01:24:15.545 --> 01:24:20.495 engaging, like, okay, do I actually smell the plants that are growing around me? 01:24:20.535 --> 01:24:21.965 Do I hear the birds? 01:24:21.965 --> 01:24:25.675 Do I hear the rustle of the squirrels or whatever it might be? 01:24:26.055 --> 01:24:30.760 Uh, I find I need to do that personally in order to really kind of be present. 01:24:32.310 --> 01:24:32.890 Megan Hine: So true. 01:24:34.210 --> 01:24:34.340 Yeah. 01:24:34.470 --> 01:24:34.870 Well, 01:24:35.430 --> 01:24:39.230 Travis Bader: um, Megan, I really appreciate you taking 01:24:39.240 --> 01:24:40.860 the time to be on the podcast. 01:24:40.890 --> 01:24:42.770 I really enjoy this conversation. 01:24:43.220 --> 01:24:44.170 Thank you so much. 01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:45.130 Megan Hine: Thanks for having 01:24:45.130 --> 01:24:56.846 me.