Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast.
Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge
necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years.
And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world.
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I'm joined today by a man who has touched thousands of people's lives
through his determination, adventurous spirit, and genuine compassion.
He's a Ted talk alumni who spoke on mindfulness and resilience and
is using his role as a professional educator to introduce his students
to the outdoors, hunting and fishing.
Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Steve Wilson.
Steve Wilson: Thank you so much for having me, Travis.
It's, uh, I'm incredibly grateful to be
Travis Bader: here.
Well, we've been conversing back and forth on social media for some time.
Of course, we've both been on the collective.
Yep.
Which is, uh, if people are watching this one right now, where this
mug comes from, do your best.
And pick up the pace.
Pick up the pace, do your best.
Pick up the pace.
Fantastic.
Podcasts there.
And of course we just touched base on, uh, one of the mental health walks there
that Seb puts on every, what, two weeks?
Every second Sunday.
Yeah.
Every second Sunday.
You know how that one came about?
Uh,
Steve Wilson: I roughly, yeah.
And I think what's interesting is the story of how Seb and
I sort of got connected.
It's, um, a young friend of mine who you may have seen in the Ted talk, a young
guy named Matt Jenkins, who I believe you've had him on your podcast as well.
I have.
Um, he is the one who introduced me to Seb.
And it's a very, I got to admit my imposter syndrome is
firing like crazy this morning.
As, uh, as I was driving here, it's like, what business do I have being
on a hunting or, uh, or outdoor podcast in general, but it's kind
of, it's, it's a perfect, uh, segue into how this all got started for me.
Because when I think about working with youth and I think about working with
people in general, and I'm trying to bridge that world between youth and
adults as well now, because I find that.
The kids don't stand a chance unless the adults that are in their lives are working
on themselves as much as the kids are.
That's become really kind of a target and a, and a focus of the work that
I'm, I'm trying to do these days.
And one of the things that I fear that kids haven't taken enough
control of in their own lives is just sort of their resilience.
Right.
And that's what your whole
Travis Bader: conversation was about on the Ted talk.
Yeah.
I'm going to put a link to that Ted talk in, because it's absolutely fantastic.
And you, you know, the, um, uh, you touched on a bunch of
topics here, uh, Matt Jenkins.
So we haven't aired his podcast yet because he called up and said, Oh
my God, I just finished this course.
I have so many more things I want to talk about.
Can we do a redo?
And I'm like, Oh, a hundred percent.
And just a fantastic individual.
He is.
Uh, yours will probably be coming up before his, uh, so Matt's with the RCMP
and he's big on the mental health and.
Yeah, just really kindhearted individual had a lot of really
great things to say about you.
I appreciate that.
And, um, yeah, of course on those mental health walks, we'll put a link in there
as well, just so people can see about it.
If they're in the lower mainland.
For sure.
They, they, where they learn mindfulness.
Yeah.
You were introduced to Seb who started these things and he started
that, uh, a couple of years ago.
I remember I was talking to him on boxing day.
Yeah.
You know that story?
I know.
I don't.
Okay.
So boxing day, I'm talking to him.
How are you doing, Seb?
Not too good, he says.
Ooh, okay.
What's going on?
He says, one of the people that follows me on social media, uh, attempted to
take his own life, was unsuccessful.
Right.
And what I thought was really cool about the whole, whole, uh, scenario here is
the action that happened afterwards, both from the individual who at some
point will likely be on the podcast.
He's been on others since then, but, um, uh, I'm still.
Waiting, he's still, he's got a lot of work to do.
And I don't want to put that pressure on him.
Yeah.
Um, but as well from Sepp, who said, you know, there are
people out there who need help.
Yeah.
Who you don't see, right.
It's, it's like that, uh, Norfolk football club.
Remember their commercial?
There's two guys watching the football game.
One guy is all down and mopey and his other friend's full
of energy and he's cheering.
And it shows them game after game.
And then all of a sudden the Mopi guy shows up and he puts
a shirt down on the seat.
And the cheering guy is taking his own life.
We don't always see these things, but what we can do is you can take proactive
steps to be able to work on ourselves and help others, maybe help identify others.
That's what.
Seb's been doing with his mental health walk.
And that's what I'm seeing you do from a very grassroots level in the most
influential way that I can possibly think of with kids, what age span.
Yeah.
Steve Wilson: Well, grade eight to 12.
Like
Travis Bader: massively impacting these people's lives.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
And that's, it's, that's a hard one.
Cause, uh, this year actually hit double digits for the amount
of students that I've lost.
Um, there was, uh, one of ours was lost to an ex student to a motor vehicle
accident in this case, but when you hit double digits, um, you know, it's always
something that's never sat easy with me.
Um, the problem is you do get a little bit more desensitized when you get
that news nowadays, because with substances and the opioid crisis, I've
lost four or five, uh, students to.
To the overdoses and what I've really discovered over 22 years of working
with kids is that I've yet to meet a kid who wants to make a tragic choice.
I've yet to meet a kid who wants to go down the route of substances or abuse, um,
in, in those ways and what happens is, is.
People who are left to work through their things with, with no
assistance or, or without any adult guidance, they will find the path
that takes the pain away from them.
And in a lot of ways, and in, and in a lot of tragic situations that, uh, That
tragic choice is simply a way of trying to remove the pain that they're in and
not being a mental health professional is a really interesting position to
be in, because I'm just a fellow who cares enough to have the conversations.
Um, and when our provincial government came out with a new curriculum about four
years ago, uh, there was a curriculum overhaul as there is, it's kind of a
pendulum, it swings back and forth in terms of what, what people feel should be
taught or could be taught in high schools.
And I was really excited to see the last shift because.
It started to be inclusive of a lot more conversation around
mental and emotional health.
And realistically, if we're not well mentally or emotionally, then how
can be well, how can we be well in the rest of the realms of our life?
Um, it really does.
It's the root of it for sure.
And you know, I know a lot of people that are mentally well, but
emotionally unwell and vice versa.
I know folks that are emotionally look stable, but they're quite.
Challenged, uh, with their mental health in the background.
How would you
Travis Bader: define the difference between emotional
health and mental health?
Yeah,
Steve Wilson: that's a good question.
And, and I think that, uh, when you see people that look morose or
depressed, like in the Norfolk ad, you know, the fella is quite sullen
and he's just cranky and he looks sad.
I would much rather encounter kids like that every day than the ones who just have
this baseline happiness, but you can't, well, he can't tell if it's authentic and.
There's a, there's a tremendous amount of social pressure on youth now in
high schools and elementary schools alike, um, where you have to appear a
certain way, you know, you don't ever want to look vulnerable, you know, and
it's, I, I wonder if kids misunderstand sort of their connection to their own
wellness because they're, It's very, it's socially awkward for a kid to
look unwell mentally in high school.
Like if they represent with, with, um, sadness or, or anger or frustration,
they're going to be judged for it.
What about like
Travis Bader: those emo kids?
Steve Wilson: Are they still a thing?
That very much so.
Yes.
Uh, um, my son is who's 12.
My, I've, I've two, I have two kids.
My daughter's 10, my son's 12.
And, uh, my son is very much a preteen.
He is very much in the throes of preteen angst and, and all that comes with it.
Sure.
Um, but what I find is he's incredibly impressionable
about what others think of him.
And so he actually said to me recently, he says, you know, his hair was getting
pretty long and it was hanging in front of his face, which is quite common
amongst his peer groups these days.
But I said, son, I said, why are you trying to block out the world?
And he goes, what do you mean?
And I said, that hair.
Hiding your eyes to me from my experience, working with a lot of
kids over a lot of years is you're trying to block out the world.
You don't want to see what's coming in.
And that Harris is a way of telling me that.
And he said, dad, what?
I'm not one of those emo kids.
Come on.
And I said, well, I said, you might not think you are, but.
Passively, you're telling me that you're trying to not see
everything in front of you.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
We, we give off, we've got our verbal, what we're saying, our,
uh, non verbal, our body language or paraverbal, how we say it.
If each one of these things gives something off and quite often, if I see
somebody walking in, I'm going to make these decisions, just snap decisions
based off of, even if they're not trying to block out the world, that's.
The obvious step that someone's going to just jump to because we're
all about pattern recognition.
Steve Wilson: Amazingly.
So in youth, when in that pattern recognition, uh, youth in particular
who lack emotional intelligence or just life experience can be fiercely, um,
fiercely judgmental and hard on people.
And so what happens is this guard gets built or this armor gets put on
amongst youth, um, because socially it's, it can make life very hard for
them to be authentic or to be real.
With their feelings.
And so my job, or I believe what one of my missions in life, or
one of my, the sole purpose of my work is to create an environment
for not just youth, but anybody to actually be real with who they are.
And, and they will know at least when they're interacting with me,
that there's not going to be any judgment coming from me about that.
You could be having your worst day.
And if we sit and we have a coffee, or if you, if you come into my classroom
and we, and we sit and we do the work, like whoever you are is perfect.
And, and I believe that every single one of us, myself included, and I, I should
probably take a step back and say, I've done an incredible amount of work, I think
on myself in the last 10 years or so.
Um, one of my biggest regrets is waiting until my thirties to see a counselor,
you know, like, um, in our household, it was always just work harder.
Whatever the challenge is, just work through it.
I, and I also was a gymnast growing up.
So I, I mean, gymnastics is a very heady sport.
It's, uh, it's incredibly internal.
And, you know, I had an Eastern Hungarian, um, coach who was there.
We didn't talk about feelings.
We didn't talk about vulnerability.
There was just perfection.
And if you didn't achieve perfection, you were less than.
And I don't regret that at all, but I think what it did is it
taught me not to communicate.
It taught me to not talk outwardly about my struggles,
but to navigate them internally.
It's a
Travis Bader: tight rope because there is value to working through it.
There is value to take as long as we can frame it properly and we can say,
look at this work and this challenges that I'm having, these failures that I'm
seeing or stepping stones to success.
For sure.
And whatever it might be, there's.
There's a lot of value to that as opposed to, um, where some people
may ascribe to a victim mentality.
Steve Wilson: Yes.
Well, victim mentality is, is really what we have to strive
so hard to work away from.
Cause being a victim is never going to allow you to move forward.
You will always find a reason.
To stall if you have a victim mentality.
And that's one thing Seb and I are very aligned in when we work with people on
the mental health walk or, and Seb has been into my classroom before as well to
work with, work with kids here and there.
Yeah, it's, I, uh, victim mentality is what everybody is stuck in.
It feels like these days and, and I don't want to judge people for being
there because they have, there's a reason they've gotten to that point,
but what I really want to do is I want to encourage people to try and be.
Brave enough to take a step away from their victim mentality.
What do
Travis Bader: you think that reason is?
Cause I, I have some thoughts on what
Steve Wilson: that is.
Yeah.
Um, I'm a big Gabor Mate believer.
So if you've, if you've worked with the Gabor, Gabor Mate's
work at all, he's a local guy.
Yes.
And, uh, I'm all of us, and I want to be careful here cause I don't want
to paint with too wide a brush cause I can turn some people off, but I do
believe that we, all of us have trauma in our lives that is unresolved.
That we had a traumatic experience and, and the word trauma very much.
Can put people in a position of like a physical trauma or, you
know, um, something profound.
I believe they're much smaller than that.
I believe having a negative interaction with somebody can feel traumatic,
especially if you had intention of how that interaction was going to go.
Um, and as adults, we have such a profound impact on youth.
So, you know, a kid who takes a chance to talk to their mom or dad or
guardian or caregiver or whatever that structure looks like nowadays, if a
kid reaches out and takes a chance.
To voice their feelings or their fears or their vulnerabilities.
And an adult just says to them, suck it up.
That can feel traumatic to a point where it either shuts
them off or shuts them down.
And then they're not going to be willing to go down that road again.
And that over time.
That builds some really, I believe to be some really unhealthy
patterns, um, that a person will then settle with and turn inward.
And then what, what the only option that has is to become a victim based mentality.
Right.
I'm not good enough.
I'm not strong enough.
I took a chance and it wasn't received well.
So why would I try again?
What
Travis Bader: an interesting, like I looking at this, I see some challenges
for you that, uh, some very obvious ones would be the level of compassion
that you display to your students.
How do you compartmentalize that in a way that you're not taking it home?
I see, um.
If you're that in tune and you're always sort of on the lookout, how do we, uh,
navigate creating a learned helplessness within the students where, uh, where the,
you're the person they know they can go to, uh, even if they just maybe bump their
knee and it's not the end of the world.
And, but.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, it, everybody has to have people.
Like we all have to have people, and I wonder how many of our listeners
right now don't have a person or don't feel like they have a person.
So imagine us as adults, we don't feel like we have a person to turn to.
So then how can we then be the person for others?
Travis Bader: I think a lot of the people listening to this, uh, would, and you
know, they can write in and they can, I'd be really interested to hear what
they have to say, but I think a lot of people listening to this are going
to say that they don't have a person.
I
Steve Wilson: agree.
And I, I really think that's where the root like, and as my work extends and
as I become more experienced in things, I get far more fired up about the idea
of helping adults connect because.
All the adults, if they're connected, then the youth around them are
going to inevitably be connected.
Right.
Um, I had an experience with a parent that I won't get too much into just for
like privacy reasons, but I had a dad in my, in my space, we were having a parent
teacher interview and he was weeping about his child who I teach and his child
is not choosing a healthy path in life.
Um, I have had my struggles with this kid, but I'm.
Never going to give up on him.
So I said to the dad, I was like, tell me in one way that you have connected
with your son in the last three months.
And he goes, I just, he just won't talk to me.
And I said, okay, well I said, do you know what the, his five favorite songs are?
Like, have you looked on his phone?
What is, look at his playlist on his Apple music, what are the
five songs he listens to the most?
And he's just like, well, I have no idea.
And I said, well, you should, if you don't know what the top five songs
your kid is listening to are, and then like, just as an olive branch
of, of, of connection, like, Hey, tell me why that's your favorite song.
Like even something simple like that, that really can start to open the doors.
Cause what does it show?
It shows you care enough to know it shows you care enough to hear
their opinion about it, and it shows that you're trying to maintain
a level of relevance with them.
And so if you try them on and they'll just the most simple way,
they'll try you on in something that might be much more profound.
Like decisions around life or, or decisions around substance
in, in this particular case.
And it was really interesting because coming on, uh, prepping to come on
the podcast, I said to all my classes yesterday, I said, Hey, I'm going on
a, a hunting and outdoors podcast.
I said, I'd love to be able to give Travis relevant information.
I said, how many of you have been exposed to hunting or angling with either a mom,
a dad, a caregiver, or a grandparent?
And 60 percent of the hands in the room went up.
Really?
Yeah.
And so that opened, we'll talk about that.
We'll get into that.
But in particular, this kid was literally laying in the back of the
room, this child I'm speaking about.
And, uh, he and I haven't seen eye to eye on much, but the door is always
open and he put, he actually put his hand up and I said, what's up?
And he goes, Oh, he says, I harvested a deer in September.
And I said, man, that's amazing.
I said, congratulations.
I said, I didn't even harvest this year, which is, I worked hard and
I feel like I don't know anything about hunting after this season.
But, um, I said, who were you with when you scored in September?
And he goes, I was with my dad and this is the same person who was.
Crying in my space, talking about how he wasn't connected to his kid.
Oh, that's amazing.
It's amazing.
That is amazing.
All of a sudden I said, well, did you get, and I didn't know if he had LEH or
I didn't know, and I was on the fly and I just said, was it a doe or a buck?
And he goes, no, it was a dandy little buck.
And all of a sudden he and I had something to talk about
because it was common ground.
And I think that's like the perfect example of what I'm trying to
get at is just that find anything that will create common ground.
Cause then what it does is now, when I see this kid, cause we're off for
Christmas break now, but when I see him in the new year, I'm going to
have something to talk to him about that doesn't involve discipline.
It doesn't involve behaviors.
It doesn't involve, um, his execution or lack of execution on things.
We can just talk about hunting.
And I think what fires me up is that when you think about these elemental forms
of If we root them in the outdoors, if we root them in the woods, if we root
them in togetherness or struggle or shared adversity, then all of a sudden
we are hitting home runs because how can you not have conversation that
leads to the essence of who we are?
Travis Bader: So you're talking about, you know, a baseline of happiness.
Yeah.
And the difficulty and like, there's not somebody who's
morose and easy to spot out.
And maybe there's an issue there.
Yeah.
Uh, remember those old t shirts and they said, um, based on the old Dick and Jane
and it was, we're drinking and driving.
It says, see Dick drink, see Dick drive.
Don't be a dick.
Yeah.
So, uh, there's a, have you heard the poem?
I think I've said it on the, um, on the, I'm sure I've said it on
the collective, uh, Richard Corey.
You'd have to refresh me.
Okay.
So there's a guy, Edwin Arlington Robinson, and, uh, he wrote a
poem called Richard Corey, who of course, Richard, don't be a dick.
I figured if they can do a, uh, a campaign like this, but this interesting
fellow didn't have a name until I think he was about two years old and
his parents are at some chalet and the other guests were like, what do
you mean you haven't named your kids?
Let's let's everyone put names in a hat.
We're going to draw a name.
And Edwin was drawn in the person who, uh, Suggested Edwin.
It was from Arlington.
So it was Edwin Arlington Robinson.
And, uh, this guy seemed to have a, uh, a bit of a difficult life.
Maybe he was one of these emo kids by today's standards growing up
and had a thing for this woman who ends up marrying her brother and.
Wow.
Um, they're just a bunch of tragedies, one after the other.
And anyways, he wrote a poem called Richard Corey, and it was, uh, if I
can remember, so it's something like whenever Richard Corey went downtown,
we people on the pavement looked at him.
He was a gentleman from soul to crown, clean, favored, and empirically slim.
And he was always quietly arrayed and he was always human when he talked.
Yet still he fluttered pulses when he said good morning and
he glittered when he walked.
And he was rich, yes, richer than a King and admirably
schooled in every grace and fine.
We thought him to be everything to make us wish we were in his place.
So on, we worked and waited for the light and cursed the meat
and went without the bread.
And Richard Corey, when warm summer's night went home and
put a bullet through his head.
So he is the epitome of the.
Baseline happiness.
Everyone's looking at this person.
It's like, I look at that, like the Instagram, everything's awesome.
Look at my life.
I got money.
I got relationships.
I'm traveling, but there's nothing.
There's substance.
Right.
And there's something deeply, deeply hurting that individual to the
point where they think that they have to take that final solution.
And I, and I think if people in the same way that I think you were
talking about, instead of mental.
Mental health or no, it was somebody else talked about mental fitness instead
of mental health is a way to reframe it and make it a bit more acceptable.
Um, the concept of taking one's own life.
I remember I had a conversation with a fellow before and, um, these, you
know, difficult things going on.
And it's a suggestion to him that, um, he should take his own life.
Right.
It was from his wife and her friends.
And, and I said, well.
Uh, they said, you would be better if you weren't here.
I said, well, maybe they're onto something, but maybe, maybe not
necessarily that final solution.
Maybe that version of you would be better for wasn't here.
And I think so many people have a hard time and they conflate the two as
opposed to that version of me sucks.
I'm not happy.
It's not working.
Yeah.
Just get rid of the whole thing, as opposed to how do I change that version
of me to something that's more desirable?
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
And that's, I, I mean, I think I use that actually, it's, it's funny you say that.
Cause I use that term, um, essentially in my classes, cause I, so for those
that are listening, like I, uh, I'm in charge of the strength and strength
and conditioning program at my school.
And so in 2023, it's a, it's a very challenging time to be a teacher because
there's a lot of fear around triggering.
Um, Whether it's body shame, whether it's nutritional habits, whether
it's disordered eating, those are all incredibly real things.
I'm, I, we can talk a lot about that as I've seen many cases of that over
my career, but I just tell the kids on literally day one, I'm like, who you
are sitting here right now is perfect.
But I believe that in every single one of us, there's a version of us that
exists that we want to try and see.
And whether that's a physical version of yourself, an emotional
version of yourself, whether it's a combination of all of those things,
my job is to help you find the very healthiest version of yourself.
And what I get is buy in, um, pretty quickly from kids because that thought
of there being a version of themselves that they would like to see and my
ability to support that, that's an exciting thought because a lot of
kids get to me and they already are feeling like who they are isn't okay.
For whatever reason, whether it's how they look, whether it's their
body shape, their body type, whether it's what people have said to them.
I mean, my daughter is a, she's an interesting little critter,
so she's a, she's on the gifted spectrum, um, which when you're 10
years old, giftedness is not a gift.
Like she feels, she feels the world, um, incredibly, she feels
everything about the world.
And that includes judgment of others.
Like when people judge her for her challenges, um, that cuts deep and you
know what, this is four years ago now, she wore snow pants to school one day
and this kid told her she looked fat and she remembers that to this day.
Like to get her into snow pants, to go out into the winter,
she still struggles with that.
She'll probably
Travis Bader: remember it the rest of her life.
She will.
And it's funny how we, especially at that young age, how those
Steve Wilson: things will stick.
Right.
And we have a very, very open communication line in our home.
So our, our kind of rule at home is you're never in trouble if you tell the truth.
Agreed.
There might be consequences.
Same rule in our house.
Yeah.
And so when she came home and told us that, I was so grateful for
that because how many parents.
Have, don't know things like that, that have happened to their sons or daughters.
And it's a real problem because if you sit with that for years, then what does
the, what the only option for something, a negative experience like that, the
only option for it is to perseverate and turn into something negative potentially.
Now, one of my worries too, is that, um, and if you ask kids this, they'll
say, how many, who, tell me a time when an adult has told you to toughen up
or to get gritty or to be resilient.
Cowboy.
Yep.
We say it all the time.
The difference is, is that.
A lot of kids, nobody's ever shown them how.
Most haven't.
Yeah.
And that's where, you know, I'm super grateful for my dad.
My dad's the hardest working man I've ever met.
Um, we come from a very industrious background, like, uh, I'm not sure
if you've ever heard of Minstrel Island, but, uh, up north of Sayward,
um, my dad grew up on a float camp, my dad's house floated and they
just towed it up and down the coast.
And wherever there was timber contracts, that's where they tied the town.
And literally my dad like wrote a skiff to school because there was a floating school
house that all the community kids went to.
My mom grew up in a logging community called Kokish and my grandma was raising
six kids on her own, running the camp kitchen and her husband was out logging.
Right.
So I come from hardwood, like.
Like, like sturdy stock.
Um, my dad's not, Bob, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry, you're
not the most emotionally intelligent fella I've come across, but I remember
my dad always teaching me how to toughen up, but it wasn't, he just,
he wouldn't just say toughen up.
He would show me what that meant.
And I'm super grateful for that because I think a lot of my resolve or a lot
of my resilience or my grit comes from it being role modeled to me.
And so I wonder how many kids have that experience, that same experience.
I'd say a lot don't.
I, I, I agree.
And I think that that's as, like I said, as, as I age in particular,
and as I'm parenting, I'm like, my passion about my work is transitioning
towards the adults that I encounter, um, because I really feel like.
They have a responsibility to their kids, to be good role models and
to, to show, not just say toughen up, but demonstrate what that means.
Travis Bader: So what does it mean?
How do they show that?
By working on themselves.
In, in what, in what respect?
Listening to self help books in a way that their kids can see
them doing the same thing by.
Steve Wilson: So, so I really, I really ascribed to you like a, what I
call a mind, body, spirit philosophy.
So when we talk about our mind, we're talking about
our mental, emotional health.
When we talk about our body are, I'm talking about, does it give you
access to the things you love or the things you're curious about?
And then when I talk about spirit, it's not a religious context at all.
If, if you have a faith system in your life that works
for you, awesome, terrific.
But when I speak about spirit, it's how you feel about self
and how you feel about others.
And so when, when I encounter parents and, and some parents are far more
open to conversation than others, for sure, especially when they're
coming in to have hard conversations about kids, like they're generally
on their own level of guard.
Um, but I just ask them, I'm like, are you working on your mind, body, and spirit?
And then if they even say, what does that mean?
Like you'll often get a terrorist reaction and it'll just be like, no,
I'm talking about, are you working on your mental, emotional health yourself?
Is your body capable of doing what you're passionate about?
Or at least, or is it capable of doing what you're curious about?
And are you showing that to your sons or daughters or critters, whatever they have?
And is your spirit, how do you feel about yourself and how do you feel about others?
Now, those aren't conversations I can really dive into with depth with
adults, because that's not really my.
My role, because I'm working with their kids.
But if I can at least open the door to that conversation, then how can that
not create a bridge between them and the youth that they're encountering?
Travis Bader: Do you ever have parents come back and say, mind your own business?
Steve Wilson: A couple of times I've had, but my experience has
generally been more, um, not think it's not thankfulness, but it's like.
I didn't know this was going on with my kiddo.
Like I'll get an email saying my kid, I now understand this about them and I'm
not expecting a thank you because what I've done is I've opened a challenging
door for them and who would thank somebody for opening a challenging door.
But what I'm hopeful for is that over enough time,
there's enough reflection and.
That person will at least understand what I was trying to do.
And that's why I actually try to teach the kids how to interact with their
parents, because that has more success than me trying to talk to the parents.
I
Travis Bader: really, really like that approach.
It sounds like you and I are on a very similar wavelength in
dealing with kids and others.
I, I have to wonder though.
Yeah.
If I were to go back 20 something years, 30, how old am I now?
45.
So whatever it would be, 30 years to get into high school and you were where
you are at your stage in life right now.
I wonder what kind of impact you would have had on me.
Like I got, I went to, I think five different high schools, a couple of
different elementary schools, moved around a lot, not by my own choice.
Yeah.
Um, kicked out of a few places, getting in trouble.
And that interaction, there's a very oppositional sort of
mentality, us against them sort of mentality that, uh, that I had.
And I, I remember one school I'd made, I always loved puzzles, right.
And I loved, I learned how to pick locks in grade four.
I love electronic locks.
I love physical locks that threatens people's sense of security, right.
Yeah.
And, um, it was a, uh, it was St.
Thomas Moore, which is a private school and the, the brothers who lived upstairs.
I remember, uh, they said, you know, cause I wouldn't, I ended up selling a
few of these keys and, um, I wouldn't rat out the people I sold them to.
And they said, they said, well.
Had you told us, then you would still be going to the school here, but
this us against them oppositional attitude that you seem to possess,
we can't have that and see you later.
Right.
Yeah.
I have to wonder, uh, how you would reach and get through to
somebody that, uh, like that, who's, um, who's not looking for help.
Yeah.
Who's, uh, not harming outwardly, but definitely on a
path that's sub it's counter.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, yeah, honestly, I feel like I would have found
a way for you to be useful.
I would have taken your, I would have taken your intrigue and I would
have taken your, your curiosity and I would have taken your, your skillset.
Cause that like to teach yourself to do that is an incredible skill.
And I would have found a way to try and channel that and make that useful.
Um, I also would have slow played you.
I wouldn't have bulldogged you.
I've, I've yet to find a kid where bulldogging it actually works.
And by bulldogging, what I mean is getting in your face, um, Trying to
impose some sort of will or change on you that, that just doesn't work.
No, because
Travis Bader: they will, they will outwill you any day of the week.
Well, pure obstinance is stubborn.
Steve Wilson: And how many times have I pushed back?
Right.
How many things have I pushed back against?
Because I was like, no, I'm never going to let you beat me.
And it's not about beating.
It's about, it's about trying to bring.
The impressive things that you do possess out, because if you start to
feel good about the things you can do, then how can you not start to
feel better about yourself overall?
It's about creating value for somebody.
Everybody listening right now has value.
Everybody.
I don't care what kind of funk you're in.
I don't care where you're stuck.
Find some way to express and have your value be useful because we all
can bring something to the table.
Every single one of us, every single day has the opportunity
to be useful to this world.
Travis Bader: That's a very difficult prospect when you have
what, 30 kids, 40 kids in one class.
Yeah.
To be able to dedicate that time and attention to an individual.
Yeah.
How do you do that?
Like there's, there's obviously a limit to the amount of, uh,
that you're able to reach.
And there's some that you're going to have to say.
If I put all my time into you, that means I can't put the time into the others.
So
Steve Wilson: what I try to do is try and foster enough community in
the room that the room will help take care of those people alongside me.
That's, um, and I should break that down a little bit.
I have definite allies in my, in, in every one of my classes.
Where I've got a really like strong student and I don't being strong
by their ability to do something.
I mean, strong character, strong level of integrity, strong level of compassion.
I really feel like too, it's important to define the difference
between empathy and compassion.
Empathy is a feeling, compassion is action.
So it starts with empathy because if somebody can feel that I, or
one of their colleagues or peers is trying to come alongside them
just to feel what they feel.
There's safety in that.
There's a sense of safety in that.
And that's where, you know, I've had kids where I've literally not said anything
to them in the first month of school.
Like I acknowledge them.
Hey, good to see you.
I'm glad you're here.
Always.
And I always give high fives at the door.
Like every kid gets a high five on the way in and on the way out.
Um, even if you hate them, even if I hate them.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there's, and I'll be, I'll be truthful with you.
There's kids I've, I've been glad to see go through the door because
I have put my best into them.
Um, it's a tough one because it generally, those are the kids you hear from in
their early twenties, like I'll get a Facebook message or I'll get like
a, uh, something left at the school.
Um, I got one not too long ago where I just got this message and the kid just
messaged me and it's like, you were right.
Can, can I read you something?
Travis Bader: Sure.
Of course.
I got this thing here.
It says, uh, in the handwriting, I hate to say it's terrible, but it's
better than mine or the printing, man, I'm just going to jump into it.
There are very few people that I credit with not only being the reason I finished
high school, but also the reason I'm still alive and you're one of those people.
I'm not sure that you realize what a profound effect you've had
on me, but I really need you to.
You need you to know and know
Steve Wilson: why.
Yeah.
That one was, uh, I've got a rebuttal too.
I'm going to show you one too, but that, yeah.
And that kid who I spoke about, um, it was one that was a tough one because
he was, he was a tough kid to like, and what happened was, is in his
early, um, in the early part of his.
High school experience with me.
He wasn't attending, he wasn't handing in any work.
He wasn't really a student by any metric.
Um, but what he was, was he was just this kind of quirky kid that, and
honestly, the bridge was a band t shirt, like he had a t shirt on of a band that
he liked and I grew up a punk, right?
So like, I mean, and if you look at the community of punks.
That we all came up together, it was a bit of anti establishment, anti
authority, you know, you're moshing and you're raging against the machine
as it were, but he and I had that.
And all of a sudden that just kind of opened this little door.
Right.
And it was like, Hey man, you like that band?
I like that band too.
Just let me know if there's anything that you need, you know, and next thing you
know, he needed a spot to be a student aid because he just needed a credit.
And I'll be honest, this is going to, whew, I'm going to lob this one out there.
High school isn't for everybody.
Oh, it wasn't for me.
High school isn't for every kid.
And, and unfortunately the confines of the box that we have to live and work
within, uh, in terms of education, um, really is limiting for some kids and
this kid had to stay within the box because I believe every kid nowadays
in 2023, you at least have to graduate.
So you give yourself opportunity to.
Step into something, you know, the days of, of leaving school to go
work at the mill or the days of leaving school to get into a trade.
Those days are what I believe to be gone.
Like you have to have some basic level of education to be hired by HR with,
with almost every company nowadays.
So in a lot of ways, we're, my job is just to help kids get across the
stage and get out, get out the door.
And if that means they have a student aid block with me that I
just kind of give them a space to be, what happens is it builds value.
Cause now all of a sudden I'm empowering them to have some influence over
somebody else, even though they have had nobody in positively influencing them.
Or it's a case of maybe I teach the, I currently have a situation that is
a very challenging one, but I teach this kid in three classes because
the admin and I spoke and I'm like, look, just give this kid to me.
And we'll get him, we'll get him where he needs to go to get out into the
world, into a trades program or a work program where he will start to find
some value, but the education system, if he doesn't have success in it,
he won't even have that opportunity.
How many
Travis Bader: other teachers think this way?
Steve Wilson: Uh, there's a handful of us.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
When you say handful of us, is that in your school or is that in the province?
Steve Wilson: That's tough.
So, so I, I'm an incredibly big school.
We have 2, 200 kids in our building.
Uh, we have 170 staff.
And if I had to guess, I would say there's 15, 16 of us, pardon me, that
are willing to bend over backwards to kind of help kids navigate the system.
So
Travis Bader: they say the, you need at least three people in your life.
You need someone who's been there, done that in a way that you're
aspiring to be there, a mentor, you need somebody to mentor you.
You need a peer, someone who's an equal, who can celebrate your
wins and be there beside you.
And, and then you need a mentee, someone who you can pass that on to.
And that's, they say the, you need these three people and you reached out
because you wanted to be the mentor to some new teachers and the school says.
Uh, you're a little too far outside this box for us.
Yeah.
Like there is an establishment that is in place that, you know, my personal
opinion, I think the traditional school system is a dead structure and that
might not be the most, um, uh, well received thing given the audience that
I'm, I'm speaking to, but the, um.
The way that we teach people and the, the idea behind, uh, segregating people
based on age groups into different classes and doubling down on the areas
where they're deficient, as opposed to doubling down on the areas where they're.
Uh, showing proficiency, like there's a lot of things I
think would require changing.
All of it's going to take a massive overhaul from,
Steve Wilson: uh.
It is.
Yeah.
And that, that, so I don't, I'm not, I'm not a, I'm a zero believer in excuses.
I don't believe in excuses.
I believe in barriers and barriers can be overcome.
But it requires tremendous amounts of work.
Um, and, and excuse is dismissive.
Sure.
And so when we dismiss people or notions or ideologies or beliefs or whatever
it is, when we dismiss them, it, it, it, it re it robs the value of it.
Totally.
And so some, a kid having a creative solution, um, is if we dismiss that, not
only are we devaluing the person with the idea, but we're telling them not only was
your idea no good, but neither are you.
If that person hasn't been raised with resilience or grit or, or a level
of, um, self worth, like imagine some of our most profound ideas, whether
it's creating silver core, whether it's, uh, stepping onto a Ted stage to
speak with like the purest intention that I had, I gave it on that day.
And if somebody was hard about that idea or hard about a business practice
or hard about a belief system or.
Whatever, like if you don't have a level of resolve and grit within yourself to
take that criticism, then that can be debilitating because you hung it out there
and somebody, not only did they not accept it, they slapped it back in your face.
And if you can't sit in the pocket with that, then that can be, that
can be debilitating to a person.
Travis Bader: Well, what does, uh, George, General George Patton say, Peyton, Patton?
Patton.
Um, he says, uh, don't tell somebody how to do something.
Tell them what you'd like to see.
Uh, accomplished and let them surprise you with the results.
Yeah.
And I think when you look at the traditional school system, there's a
lot of, this is how it has to happen.
And you know, no, not everyone's going to be an entrepreneur.
Not everyone's going to be an outside the box thinker.
Not every, like we, we all have different roles and it's, they're all
very important that we have to play.
We need the people who are going to push these boundaries.
We need the people who are going to.
Uh, pull those pushers back because unfettered access to pushing can lead
to some pretty, uh, yeah, difficult,
Steve Wilson: some pretty unhealthy stuff.
Travis Bader: But I like your approach, you know, just cause they have a, uh, a
unique way of resolving the situation.
And I tell that to all the staff that we have the same thing.
And I, I use that quote and I say, I only have two caveats if you're surprising
me with the results, they need to be legal and they need to be ethical, right?
If we can keep within that framework, we're golden.
Steve Wilson: Well, and I think that's important too, cause what
it speaks to is it speaks to a root and a base, like a solid base of
ethics or integrity or character.
Right.
And I wonder how many of our youth.
And how many people listening, like can truly speak and, and, and like,
tell somebody, what is their base?
Like, what do they believe in like on a day to day basis?
Most can't, most adults can't.
And I think that when we're making decisions of particular around
our kids and, and around, um.
Challenging topics or conversations, right?
Like I have a checklist, it just checks against my base.
Like I constantly am running checklists.
Like, does this work against who I am?
Am I going to get involved with this?
And I also, I think that there's a lot of courage and a lot of, a lot
to be said for saying no to things.
Like I have firmly learned how to say no in the last 10 years.
And you asked earlier about, um, or had mentioned earlier about the idea of
like compassion fatigue or like, yes, I, I have healthy boundaries for myself.
And is that hard to set?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Because what happens is there's judgment about that.
So, you know, I've been involved in all level of extracurricular
activities, um, coming up and, and we can speak about the outdoor ed
programs and the backpacking programs.
Cause those.
I can't believe we haven't got that.
I know, I know.
And it's, but that's the richest stuff that the richest experiences I've had.
But you know, when I had my kids of my own, it's all of a sudden now I
have a different responsibility cause I have to be there for my family
as much as other people's families.
And, and, and that became a time where I had to step away from that
program for a couple of years, because just my hands were needed at home.
And, and I have a philosophy about how and who I want my kids to be,
um, in terms of their, their, their solid base and then who they blossom
into after that's just a win.
Right.
And I can't wait to see it and I can't wait to watch it.
I like,
Travis Bader: I really like that approach.
Yeah.
And I've, I mentioned this on the podcast before, but I remember I
caught heat from my wife when I was like, we put a business plan together.
For a business.
I mean, it all goes sideways a second that the, the rubber hits the road, but
you have that framework that at least you can keep aligning and you got that
North star that you're working towards.
What's our business plan for the family?
What's our business plan for the kids?
And she's like, that's heartless.
I was like, I.
I think it'd be heartless to send the ship out without any sort of navigation,
Steve Wilson: right?
A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
And any of us that are in the mix doing the job, like any of you parents
that are struggling, um, parenting is only hard when you're good at it.
Right.
Cause you're in the mix and it's dirty and it's ugly and it's messy and we
blow it every single day, but it's.
That's when you're doing the job, that's the work, like it's, it's not,
cause there's no playbook for it.
Stacey and my wife's name is Stacey.
And I love you, hon.
Um, she and I ask each other regularly, like, where's the playbook for this?
Cause there isn't one.
And we've needed one with these two kids of
Travis Bader: ours.
I want to, I just want to make an observation and you can tell
me if I'm off base or on base.
But one thing that I've noticed, and maybe it was from my own, uh, us against
them sort of mentality going through high school, going through whatever,
um, we get into these different roles, parent, child, teacher, student, right.
And there's a great divide.
And I think one of the best things that, um, I try to show my children.
Yeah.
Is that there really isn't a hell of a lot of difference between child and
adult, other than some learned experiences in between, but we all have fears.
We all have, uh, uh, different, different issues that are going on and not to
try and hide that and be this gloriful all being I've got it all perfected.
Do you, I'm getting the sense that you take that approach with your students,
like, obviously we're not their friend.
I'm not my kid's friends.
Yeah.
I'm their parent, but it doesn't mean I can't show that there's levels of
difficulties that we still have to work through and that their opinion in working
through some of these things, whether it's a limited capacity or larger capacity is.
Considered and, uh, and, and value.
Do you take that approach?
I think
Steve Wilson: it's critical.
I think you, I think you have to live that way.
You have to fail in front of your kids.
You must, because how are you going to give them permission to
fail if you don't fail yourself?
I agree.
How are you going to, and, and I have a, and you know, maybe it's a
bit criticized, but like I have a very transparent relationship with
my son and, and see, I'm a guy who's never taken my chips off the table.
You know, I've been riding mountain bikes for.
For 23 years, I raced mountain bikes for a chunk of years, and I've been coaching
mountain biking for the last 22 years, every summer, that's my summer job.
And my son has seen me come home broken.
He's seen me come home frustrated, you know, but what we do is we talk about
the failure, dad, why are you frustrated?
Well, I didn't ride very well, or I missed this line, or I didn't
corner the way I wanted to corner.
I didn't feel like I communicated effectively.
And we talk about that on the regular and you know, he's very afraid of
failure, my boy, because he puts a lot of pressure on himself.
And, and I wonder, does that come from me?
Because, you know, I, we speak openly about expectations and we speak
openly about, about setting goals.
And I think that that's important stuff to speak about.
Um, he knows at the end of the day, I love him.
And he knows at the end of the day that if he does his work and tries
his best and comes up short, that that's the best way to spend a
Travis Bader: day.
Do you find that the, uh, the fear of failure is something that's, um, growing?
Steve Wilson: Profound.
Okay.
It is profound amongst, um, amongst our teen youth in particular.
Um, the, the alarming amount of pressure that they put on themselves.
And I want to be really careful here.
Um, uh, there's a very, an educational thinker named Tom Schimmer.
He said that stress and anxiety are what we feel when we don't have tools.
Pressure is what we feel when we do have tools and pressure is a good thing.
Yes.
And for all of our listeners out there, like it's, if you have, if you teach
your kids anything, it's teach them to use the tools that are around them.
And by tools, I mean, mentorship, friendship, counseling.
Um, putting themselves in leadership opportunities to, to work with others.
Like all of those things give you tools to handle pressure, right?
Cause what's happening is, is we have this within the walls of our buildings.
And, and this could be quite a contrary thing to say, and I'm not meaning
to be, but we have people that are wilting under the pressure, right?
Um, you know, the word stress is, uh, is a very real word.
Uh, the word anxiety is an incredibly real word, but those words are
used when they're diagnosed.
So when somebody says, I have anxiety.
And it's not medically diagnosed through a series of, of, um, testing
procedures with, with whether it's a psychologist or healthcare professional,
they just say, I have anxiety.
They don't do what they have is they have anxious feelings.
I love that.
And anxious feelings are incredibly normal.
We all have them.
Yes.
I was anxious coming in here.
But I also have tools to mitigate, to mitigate those anxious feelings, whether
it's around a box breathing in the truck before I came in, whether it's
positive self talk, whether it's a little visualization about how I wanted this to
go, this experience I'm having right now.
Of course, I had anxious feelings.
Is this going the way that you hoped?
Yeah.
I can't believe we haven't talked about hunting or the outdoors yet,
but we will, we will for sure.
So it, um, And I really, I really, and so I also have a big sign in my gym that
says it's, it's, it says ride or die.
And I spoke about it in the Ted talk as well.
Right.
And it is this ride or die philosophy of pushing your
chips in the middle every day.
Like if you don't push your chips in, how can you ever know that you
were either successful or you weren't like, how can you know you it's
impossible because you didn't try.
And so putting yourselves in stressful situations or putting
yourselves in anxious situations.
It's, it's critical if, especially if you have the mentorship around
you to help you navigate it.
Right.
And that's, and that's just it.
Cause if you don't know who your tools are, if you don't know what
your tools are, then you will continue to avoid the pressure.
Travis Bader: The.
The thought of, uh, avoiding failure and it's a prevalent one.
And I see it in people a fair bit.
A hundred percent.
I remember, uh, you know, I look at failures as stepping stones to success.
I tell the staff, I say, look at, if you fail, I'm okay with that.
Yeah.
That means that you're pushing and you're trying and you're doing something.
You took a chance.
Right.
If you keep making the same mistakes over and over again,
we're going to have a conversation.
We're going to see how we can fix this.
Right.
But I don't expect you guys to be perfect, but if we want to really
excel, you need to be able to fail.
And you know, the, the idea of having these, um, you go to
the gym, you want to be strong?
Well, you're gonna have to lift weight.
You're going to have to have this adversity and you're going
to come out of it stronger.
And if we look at failure, this is the same way.
This is awesome.
I failed.
Yeah.
Guess what did I learn out of it?
Like it sucked.
Don't get me wrong, but what did I learn?
How can I be better?
And how can I mitigate that?
Cause we'll keep having the same failures and same problems until we,
till we square that, I think it was EH Chapin who said out of suffering
have emerged the strongest souls.
The most massive characters are seared.
With scars and there is a reason just, and then my ADHD brain jumping around
here a little bit, but you probably, you may have probably already picked
up on the reason why we haven't talked about the outdoor stuff yet.
And that's because I'm trying to disrupt your patterns of
what you're going through.
Cause I could tell before you even came in here that you're well prepared.
You have all of these great things and I'm.
I know there's some great points that regardless of how much I disrupt,
we're still going to get to it.
But I, I like to keep
Steve Wilson: chipping away, keep chipping away.
We can go all day.
Travis Bader: Awesome.
Yeah.
I like to just get a little bit, um, to the heart of a few of
these things that, uh, that move you and the why and the why you.
Uh, art, like you are, like, what was that?
You had a mentor in your life.
Obviously your father was a big one for.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
My father was for sure.
Um, it's interesting.
Cause somebody asked me recently, they're like, they're like, how did you like,
how did you get to be who you are?
And it was, it was quite an interesting question because I wasn't able
to respond with just one thing.
Like my life has just been a real collection of experiences that I've
taken the time to reflect upon.
And I think that it's.
All of these things we're speaking about take time, right?
Like the gym is a, is a great example.
Like I, when I work with a new batch of kids in the gym, like I love to squat
and it's, you get under the bar, it is the most true form of work that there is.
Cause the bar goes down and the bar goes up.
And it's really simple.
Um, but it takes a tremendous amount of effort and a tremendous amount of work.
Um, there's also, uh, there's a lady named Karen Hume.
She's an educational writer and she has this concept of start where they are.
Okay.
And so our circle of influence versus our circle of concern.
If our circle of concern is bigger than our circle of influence, then our ability
to make progress is very, very limited.
So like, Oh, I don't have the right gym clothes.
Or, Oh, I don't have the right music in my playlist is a very popular one for kids.
Really?
Oh yes.
And, and I'm like, that's nonsense.
And I say it more delicately than that.
Of course.
But if what they are is making excuses, their circle of concern
is so big that it's limiting their influence even over their own body.
So I, I make the circle of influence bigger than the circle of concern.
You can squat in your socks.
I don't care.
Yeah.
I don't care if you start with that plastic piece of pipe, you put it on your
back and you execute with precision on the skills that you need to do it well.
And all of a sudden that pipe, that plastic pipe becomes a
metal piece of, of conduit.
We have some of that.
And then all of a sudden it becomes a trainer bar and then it becomes a
35 pound bar and then a 45 next thing you know, you got plates, right?
But it, you, what the, what I would love people to understand
is you can't rush anything.
If you want, if you want to get better at anything, including yourself, it takes
patience and a willingness to do the work.
Travis Bader: I think that we are so inundated with information and
everything is just snap of the fingers.
It's right there in front of you.
That the idea of patience is just kind of going out the window.
There's.
People who preach patience, Gary Vaynerchuk.
He's one of these social media guys who he's like, you got time.
He's like, well, you're 50.
You got time.
I didn't start my, my, this business that got rolling until
like my forties or whatever he was.
Idea of patience.
Um, is that something that you try and instill in people?
Is that something that you're finding is a, a difficult thing to overcome?
I try
Steve Wilson: to foster it as best I can, by example.
So like I, I, in my gym, I have a rule.
I will never ask you to do what I won't do myself.
And so, well, and I, I, and I think it's the only way we can live, like whether
it's with our kids, whether it's as a manager of an owner of a business,
whether it's whatever, I will show you what I need to be done and we will,
not only will I show you, we will do it together through the good and the bad.
Like I have kids, anchor kids that I go to in my classes that I'll like literally
walk over and fist bump them and be like, I need you to drag me through this today.
Like I haven't got it and I just need you to give me some of your energy.
I need you to help pull me through this.
And those kids will like, like mid, so we do intervals on Thursdays.
Those are interval workouts.
Like I have a kid that'll come over and discreetly just say,
Wilson, get it together, like, let's go to work if I'm struggling,
you know, cause some days I do.
Like this virus that I, that I've picked up and been trying
to get over is a bit of a doozy.
And so I have a, I should also say I have a class set of kids that I teach
that operates at 7 30 in the morning.
It's outside the timetable.
Kids that wanted to have an opportunity to have strength in
their program, but they didn't have the class space in their schedule.
So we go Tuesdays and Thursdays, 7.
30 in the morning until 8.
30.
Those are tough, tough mornings.
And I will never get a TOC or a substitute teacher to cover that class if I'm sick.
Right.
So this last week I dragged my carcass out of bed two days in a row, or the
two, sorry, the Tuesday and the Thursday where I walked in and I was walking dead.
Yeah.
We were supposed to record this last week.
That's right.
Not happening, not happening, but I made it in for that.
But how
Travis Bader: empowering is that for the.
Kid to say, look at, I'm respected and I'm valued enough.
My opinion is I can actually make an effect on this teacher.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I think it has to be that way because who am I to be, who am
I to be an authority over anybody?
I'd rather be an authoritative figure with somebody.
Yes.
Because I have maybe some wisdom or some experience, or I've, I've
lived enough life that I can.
I can say, Hey, I've been there kid.
Like I get it.
I know where you're at, but here's how, here's what I can offer
you to make this go easier or better, or to help you develop.
And it's interesting because the other thing I see a tremendous
amount of that I'd like to speak a little bit about is ego.
Ego is an incredibly toxic thing and it is literally the barrier to learning
when people think they know better.
That is, that is the barrier.
If we, if we can't overcome people's egos or if people can't overcome
their own for whatever their reasons, that is the barrier to their learning
and their, and their success.
And by success, whatever metric that, that means to them.
Um, I've got a student that I've been slow playing since September
who thinks he knows everything about strength and conditioning,
you know, and he's a strong kid.
Yeah.
He's a strong kid.
Is his technique.
Pretty solid it's proficient, but what he is, is he's so stuck in his
ego that he can't hear the details or the nuances that would take him
from proficient to like exceptional.
And he's stuck there.
And so one day I just walked up beside him and he and I hadn't seen
eye to eye on what he was doing, but I just walked up and I said,
dude, what are you so scared of?
Why are you so scared to listen?
I'm not scared.
And that's exactly what he gave me.
But I just walked away.
I just, I didn't engage.
I just let him sit with it.
And it was like, literally like three classes.
And then he walked up to me and he's like, you know, I'm not scared.
Right.
And I was like, you're not?
Well, that's funny.
Cause your behavior is telling me otherwise.
So tell me what you are feeling.
And then, but it took that patience to be able to wait
him out and let him come to me.
And now all of a sudden it was like, okay, he's got a little injury he's
working with that I didn't know about.
And I was able to share with him.
So do I, you know, I've got like, I'm a little banged up right now.
And it's like, but guess what?
You don't see me shirking the work.
I just adapt and overcome.
I'm a big believer in adapt and overcome.
Sure.
Whether it's your mental health, your emotional health, your physical health,
whatever it is, you can, everybody has the ability to adapt and overcome.
Travis Bader: If we take the mindset that there is a solution
somewhere, we might not see it right now, but there's a solution.
We just got to find it.
I found that to be a useful way to find the adapt and overcoming.
You just play it backwards rather than saying, I can't go forward
because I'm injured or this is hard.
You just work back and say, here's the solution.
Here's the end result we want to get to.
What different branches do I have that can get back to get there
and which one's going to be the most advantageous one to do.
Yeah, just
Steve Wilson: reverse plan, just set, set where you think you want to be and
start working backwards and then look at what tools you have in your toolkit
to help you get those steps forward.
And if you have a mentor, then that's great.
And coming, I mean, well, let's come back to that for a second.
Cause you talked about mentorship and, um, I'm, I couldn't be more grateful,
and I hope they do hear this podcast at some point, but I've had, I've had
a handful of teachers, um, very early in my career, that, like, literally
from my student teaching year, when I walked in as a student teacher, I got
paired with, uh, what's called a sponsor teacher, um, I had two of them and one of
them, I was actually his student in high school in his first year of teaching.
So all these years later, he became my sponsor teacher, which was an incredibly,
my life has always worked this way where I've just been super open to life and life
puts really interesting people in my path.
And that's how the Ted thing came about.
But I had two sponsors.
That's how this came about.
It, well, it is, it, it absolutely is.
Right.
And when, right when I knew when we actually were able
to shake hands and meet.
And I knew, I was like, yeah, this is, this guy and I are supposed to,
our paths are supposed to cross.
And I've like, I've just always been open to that.
And whether it's Seb, um, whether it's, you know, even Matt coming back to
Matt for a second, like I walked in to take my hunter safety course, my core
course, and Matt was my instructor and what a crazy full circle that
was to walk in and have somebody I taught all of a sudden be my teacher.
And now he's your mentor.
And now he's, and absolutely he is.
Yeah.
And I have so much to learn and I feel like I know nothing.
Um, even though he says, take more credit, I've like picked up some stuff,
but he's, yeah, and it's, and, and then you bump into people that come into
your world and you're like, if your heart's open to them and your mind is
open to it, there's mentors everywhere.
And then what you have to do is be willing to actually try what they suggest.
And that's where ego coming back to this idea of ego, like early in my career,
I thought I was lighting the world on fire and I thought I was going to change
the world, my intention was there.
But to be entirely honest, my skill wasn't.
And it took a great mentor to come into my life.
And Grant, that's you, if you're listening, he was able
to just show me the playbook.
And be able to, um, compassionately, cause action, compassionately
tell me where I was lacking.
Like he was willing to say, Hey, you did a good job, but I think this could have
gone better, or did you think about this?
And when you find somebody who believes in you and that's what it
is, it feels like belief, right?
Like that's what a mentor does for you.
They make you feel believed in.
And then all of a sudden you'll go to war.
Absolutely.
With a mentor, I'd lay in traffic for Grant.
I would.
And, and I'm very fortunate that I have had the chance to tell him, that's how I
feel about, about his relationship with me and, and what an impact it's had on me.
Um, and if you have people in your life, tell them this.
That's a very
Travis Bader: important
Steve Wilson: point.
Like tell them, take the opportunity to actually say, man, you've changed my
life, or I really value and appreciate what you've brought to my life.
Cause I think there's a lot of folks out there that have felt like they've
given and maybe not been appreciated.
Um, and that's a hard feeling to sit with yourself, you know, and you asked earlier
about, about just the kids that I have worked with that have been hard kids.
Um, it doesn't come right away, but those kids always find a way to say it.
And then that is all of a sudden worth it.
Well, there's givers,
Travis Bader: there's takers, there's matchers.
We've all seen that, uh, you know, the givers will always be taken advantage of.
Yeah.
They're going to give more than they tend to get, but they're also going to.
Excel further than what the matchers and what the takers will.
Steve Wilson: And if the givers are getting tired, I encourage them just
to really try and stick with it.
Like you're, you're doing the work and you know, you are, it's just tiring at times.
And that's why it's like fostering yourself, something that you care about
more than the work that you're doing.
Like, I think that's a really important piece.
Like I deeply care about hunting and I didn't expect
to deeply care about hunting.
Tell me that I do.
I'm
Travis Bader: glad we say we'd there.
Cause I was just about to as well.
Uh, tell me about this because now you're in a, uh, educational system.
That hunting, uh, firearms, archery, all of this thing, like I saw
on the, uh, the news yesterday.
So guy brought in some like replicas musket that, and they did
a full lockdown, had the SWAT team
Steve Wilson: in there.
Our school, well, and I won't say where or who, obviously for various
reasons, but our school was in that exact situation a year ago where we
were on a, like a two hour lockdown and I was messaging Seb from my room,
like your team is in the building.
And he's, and it was an interesting text chain to say the least, but
yeah, it is a very polarizing topic.
Um, but I speak about it openly now.
Like, I feel like I've got enough courage and enough background to have
a great conversation with whoever wants to have the conversation.
And I always, I always lead by saying we may not agree.
But we can have healthy conversation.
And so what happened with me with hunting was I started teaching about food and
I started teaching about, about access to food and where our food comes from.
Cause no matter what side of the equation you land on, we all eat and the processed
foods that we're feeding our youth in particular are not going to cut it.
There's food like substances.
And then there's real food.
And so what happened was, um, at the time where I started teaching about
food, our daughter was also going through a bunch of naturopathic testing.
She's got a super sensitive tummy and our naturopath was just like, this
kiddo can not eat processed food.
If you're going to have, and they, she needs protein.
So she actually asked, she's like, are you, would you consider feeding your child
game meat versus meat out of the store?
And I was already very open.
To the idea of that.
Um, and then I, there's a movie, a documentary that I've shown my
students called Eating Animals.
There's two documentaries I'll speak to, Eating Animals and Kiss the Ground.
Um, Kiss the Ground, I believe is still available on Netflix.
Eating Animals gets a bit tougher to find cause it's a polarizing movie.
And what it is, it's just about the meat industry in general and
the process of factory farming, um, I was never okay with what I saw.
And the other piece to come back to a little bit, maybe before that is this idea
that, you know, my mom and dad did grow up very hardy, very coastal, very like salt
of the earth folks, um, but never hunted.
And it was a real interesting thing to me, how that my dad never grew up hunting.
His brother hunted, uh, his father hunted when was, when was necessary,
but it wasn't a part of their life.
They just did it here and
Travis Bader: there.
Well, was it your daughter's diagnosis for game meat?
Was that what got you?
That
Steve Wilson: really was the impetus.
Yeah.
Because I was, and I've spent a lot of time in the woods.
I've spent a lot of time in my backpack.
Um, but for whatever reason, I just never engaged with this idea of hunting.
And then it always, and in the, in, in the background, it's always
felt like a hole in my game.
And I like to be quite as well rounded as individual as I can be.
So, you know, like my wilderness first aid, um, even though it's, it's, it's
expired right now, but I can mean I've used my wilderness first aid in critical
incidences and, and, and we can speak a little bit about that if we want to,
but like, I felt like my wilderness game was okay, but it was lacking that piece.
And then when all of a sudden I knew I had to provide meat for
my daughter, it was game on.
I was like, I'm going to learn this and I'm going to be successful
to provide for my family.
Travis Bader: Okay.
So for people, and you're a very articulate individual, so I'd
love to hear this one from you.
Sure.
Um, for people who enjoy the outdoors, they see the benefits, well, physical,
emotional, mental health benefits of being in the outdoors, which
are, are massive, well documented.
Yeah.
Um, what was the difference from being an outdoors person?
To being a person who now hunts in the outdoors.
Steve Wilson: For me, if I'm being entirely honest and transparent,
it's the primal nature of it.
It felt like it, when I was successful in harvesting that 30 seconds after the first
deer that I was able to successfully bring home was the most emotionally charged
30 seconds I've maybe ever experienced.
It was every human emotion all at one time.
Really?
And it ranged from what did I just do?
Right.
Cause I am a lover of, of all critters.
I, I think that nature is one of the most incredible things
that we have at our disposal.
Um, so it was like that initial, like, Oh, what did I just
do to, did I do a good job?
And luckily I had Matt with me and Matt's like, this is, that was as good as it gets
because we worked hard for it and we did it with purpose and we did it with ethics.
And when I walked up on my animal, it was.
Pride is the word that I want to use.
It was, it was an overwhelming feeling of like, I did it.
I've worked so hard.
I've done all the work.
I've, I've done the studying.
I've done the leg work.
I've, I've, I've learned how to do this with purpose.
It wasn't luck.
Right.
We worked hard for it.
And then it was a matter of like, now it is my sole purpose to honor this animal.
The best way that I can.
So I'm going to care for it.
I'm going to make sure the meat is cared for as meticulously as possible.
And then I'm going to make sure that my family enjoys.
And I did have a fear, um, that, you know, the kids, cause my kids are sensitive
eaters, they're, they're quite fussy that when I brought the critter home.
Um, which I had to bring it home before it went to the butcher.
And I was worried that that was going to not scare them, but unsettle them.
Um, but it didn't at all.
It was actually quite the opposite because they had been a part of my experience.
My kids had known dad was studying for the Corps and dad was buying hunting gear and
dad was learning and reading and listening and looking at all things hunting because
I wanted to be a responsible hunter.
And so, you know, when we're, when we're cutting the antlers
off, my daughter was holding them.
Travis Bader: What I think that does, that's missing in society a fair bit
is it creates a deeper connection between the concept of life and death
and death is such a closed doors event and such an abstract thing
that perhaps it's part of the reason that, uh, uh, value of life perhaps.
Isn't looked at in the same way that maybe it once was.
Yeah.
Maybe people look and they say, well, I don't know, death is
just something I see on TV.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
I think that's a very, a very good point because, um, without sharing
too many details, like being a new hunter at that time, I wasn't aware
that you should give your animal a little bit of time before you approach.
And so when I approached my animal, it was in the process of, of expiring.
And that was, you know, I asked Matt at that point, I was like.
Do you think it needs another, another round?
And he just said, dude, he's like, this is the process.
You've done your job.
You've done it well.
And I was actually in hindsight, I'm grateful that I had that experience.
Cause I was able to witness it myself and, and it made me.
There was a reverence there that, that was like, I felt compassion, I felt
empathy and compassion in that moment.
And then that's where it almost like kicked off my, my sense of duty.
Like I have a job now to make sure I respect and honor this
the very best way that I can.
And that, that critter fed my family for seven months, you know, and it really did.
And, and my daughter, it's interesting.
Cause when she eats.
Meat from the grocery store.
She'll often complain about her stomach being sensitive and upset.
And that's because her microbiome is quite, quite, she's got leaky gut, believe
it or not, at 10 years old already.
Um, and that's where the kiss the ground documentary really comes into play.
Cause I learned so much about the microbiome in our stomachs,
um, that when I brought home the tenderloins and I cooked them up.
And my kids sat at that Island and gobbled them up, like they were asking for more.
And then we did, you know, deer tacos the very next night.
And it was like, all of a sudden it was on.
And now my wife, even she's like, she's like, I actually prefer the venison, the
ground venison that we use for everything.
That's like.
And then that filled me with this sense of like, okay, it's on now.
Like, I'm going to do my very best to make sure our freezer has
healthy, delicious quality meat in it every season that I can.
And so it feels like a real sense of pride for me to be
able to provide that for them.
Have your kids come hunting with you yet?
So I took my son on his first mountain hunt this year and it was, um.
And keep in mind, I still feel like I'm quite novice.
Like if I dropped it, if I was able to drop an animal, you know, that
field dressing, if I had to do it all by myself, I would get through it,
but I sure value having Matt or Dan there or even better both of them.
Cause the packout we had on my doe a couple of years ago was, was a,
we had a legitimate packout to do and Dan was an absolute warrior.
And put half that critter on his back on a day pack.
Cause we, yeah.
Good job, Dan.
Yeah, very much so.
Good job, Dan.
And this year I was super excited to be able to bring my son, but also a bit
cautious too, because he is a sensitive little guy and he knew that I hunted
and he knew our, what our experience was from videos and photos and whatnot.
But when it actually came down to it, putting him in the field with
me, um, we did talk very honestly and very openly about like his fears.
And he said, dad, he's like, what if I cry?
And I said, that's entirely okay.
I was like, we're taking a life if we're successful and that is something to be
emotional about, but we're going to, we're going to honor that the best way we can
by making sure that we do our jobs well.
And then next thing you know, he's on a set of binos and he's spotting
deer faster and better than us.
That's right.
I love having the kids.
Yeah.
Right.
They're good at that.
It's incredible.
And so.
It was an interesting experience too, because it tested, so we hunted one area
the one day, and then we were actually hunting our way home and we checked out
this one zone and, you know, it was tough country and we spotted a monster four
by and it was like, okay, we're going to work, but then I have this decision as a
father now to make because Matt and Dan are loading up packs and I'm getting my
pack and I'm excited, but I looked at Matt and Dan and we're looking at the country
and we've seen enough ground together to know this is not going to be a cakewalk.
Like we're going to work hard for this one.
And I looked at my son's name is Gus.
And I said, Gus, I was like, can you do this?
And he goes, dad, he's like, I'm in, let's go.
And I was like, I know you want to, but can you?
Cause I said, there's real safety things here.
We have to consider if you, if we get halfway up there and you
melt down or you can't get this done, that's a tougher position.
Cause now we have to get back and the other guys, and so he said,
no, dad, he's like, I can do this.
And so we went to work and it was like a full blown, don't tell your
mom by the, by the time we were done, because it was very steep terrain
and, and I couldn't have been more proud of my guy because he persevered.
And yeah, did he have a meltdown?
For sure he had a meltdown, but that's the moment that's when you do the
talking, that's when you give a hug.
But you say, we're going to cowboy up.
And here's what that means.
Like I don't, I very deliberately try not to use expressions that I can't explain.
Like when I say cowboy up, Gus, this is what that means.
We're going to walk for the next 10 minutes.
We're going to set a timer.
We're just going to put our head down.
We're going to walk with purpose.
We're going to make sure our feet are grounded.
We're going to make sure we're not taking chances on where we step.
We're going to make deliberate action for 10 minutes, then
we're going to take a breather.
And we're going to sit and we're going to regroup and we're going
to have some water and you're going to have half a granola bar.
And then we're going to set a timer for another 10 minutes.
And then we're going to do that again, because that's, because all of us need
to be able to give ourselves those little breaks when the going is, is tough.
Right.
And next thing, you know, hour and a half later, we're ridged
out and now we're glassing and we're making a move on this buck.
And he gave us the slip cause that's why he's a big wily old buck is cause
he walked it, walked out of our lives.
But what was interesting to me was that we failed.
On the hunt.
And it was incredibly hard.
Like it was taxing and we get to the truck and you know, there's high
fives cause we worked hard for it.
And, and what my worry was, was that he was going to see that as failure
and not want to be involved again.
So we hit the road, we're driving back out and he's asleep in four minutes.
He's literally laying like flat out on the back of a bench seat and he
let him sleep for about 30, 40 minutes and he pops up and he goes, dad, he
said, can we go again next weekend?
Those were his, those were his words, not nothing that, yeah.
And so we did go again next weekend.
And that's where it's like, I think we have the responsibility when we
turn somebody on to something, we got to be able to execute for them or at
least create the opportunity for that.
And
Travis Bader: that's where that resilience comes from.
There's a shared adversity.
When you have adversity and you can frame it correctly.
Yeah.
And you know, we're not always going to know that 10 minutes
is when we get to stop.
Right.
It's like that.
Can you, can you see the path?
You see where you got to go?
Yeah.
No.
Well, can you see your next step?
Yes.
Okay.
Then we're going to take that.
That's right.
And we're going to keep taking that next step.
Eventually we'll know.
Yeah.
Things are going to change, right?
It might get worse, which means at some point it will get
Steve Wilson: better.
But for every step of the worse, you are building something, you're building
strength, you're building, you're, you're building that grit people talk about.
And, and one thing that is, is interesting, if anybody's listening
and they've had in like a relatively profound experience, like don't
expect others to understand.
You know, cause Gus, we're driving home and he, and you know, we go from that
intense experience, that mountain hunt to him going to school the next day.
And he's like, dad, he's like, what do I tell people about, about our hunt?
You don't.
Exactly.
And I said, son, I said, you have it in your heart and you've got it
with Matt and Dan and I, and that's a shared experience that we have.
Sure.
If somebody says, what'd you do this weekend?
Can you tell them, oh, I went hunting?
Absolutely.
But don't try and explain it to them cause they won't understand.
No.
And then what happens though, is if people are asking or wanting others to understand
an experience and they don't, that can feel defeating or deflating to them.
Sure.
Cause you try and qualify it.
That's right.
And there's some sort of validity that comes with that and we don't need
that because you have it for yourself.
And I think that in the social media world that we live in, it's like, if it
didn't go on Instagram, it didn't happen.
And that is such, it's heartbreaking to me because how many people are missing
the opportunity to really enrich in their lives because it didn't go on Instagram.
Like if it didn't go on Insta, it didn't matter.
Of course it mattered.
It mattered to the three dudes that you suffered with and it
mattered to that critter that you pursued and it mattered to you.
And that's important, 12 year old to understand that
in the world we live in now.
It's a very complicated thing because their validity and our son doesn't have
a phone, like I'm a bit of a zealot when it comes to, when it comes to the tech
in our house, like everything's passcode protected, everything's time limited.
Everything is, there's no Snapchat, there's no Tik TOK.
There's none of that because how else can he build an internal sense
of self and our daughter as well?
Um, if it's externally validated, right?
What mom and dad think is more important than what your friends think.
Yeah.
What coach thinks is more important than what.
Travis Bader: There's a book a while ago, I think it was
called, hold on to your kids.
Okay.
Have you ever heard of that one?
I haven't, no.
Essentially, so I didn't read the whole thing, ADHD kicked in and I
had somebody summarize it for me.
So that's, that's
Steve Wilson: me in reading as well.
That's me in reading as well.
Travis Bader: But, uh, essentially, yeah, mom and dad are more
important than the peer group.
When you reach a certain age, naturally, the way that they seem to, Evolve the peer
group becomes the most important thing.
And how do you, if the peer groups are not always going
to be the healthiest thing for
Steve Wilson: them.
Absolutely not.
Travis Bader: So hunting in the school system, back in the
eighties, uh, they took in British Columbia, the core hunter education
program out of the school system.
And then they made hunter instructors, they called them examiners.
They're not a teacher, but they can examine, but they're the
ones that teach the course.
Oh, I never
Steve Wilson: thought of that.
Yeah.
They're core examiners.
Right.
Travis Bader: So that opens a whole bunch of different loopholes
for, uh, for schools and such.
I've worked with the province right now.
We hold the contract for online hunter education for BC and we hear the good and
the bad people say, oh, you can't learn anything from online and people saying.
Uh, they get the best hunting stories from me in person.
I think there's tons of value to both and having a hybrid model
is, is a smart way to go at it.
I've also pushed, and I think this is probably the first time I'm probably
going to vocalize it on, on the podcast.
And it's going to get some heat from the other examiners of removing the firearms
portion from the hunter education course.
And the reason for that is it was created back in the day when we didn't have
a federal firearms program in Canada.
So we borrowed from, uh, he, uh, I, he, uh, from the States.
And it was basically a replication of their program, which included firearms.
I would think that the biggest obstacle in, in today's day and
age would be firearms in a school system, even just talking about guns
or bringing in disabled firearms.
So if we can say, cause we don't.
We don't bring in a bow and arrow.
We don't bring in compound bows and long bows.
And so, and then, and they're not tested on that, but it's a
perfectly valid way of hunting.
If we can let the federal firearms program deal with the firearms safety
training, because all the BC does is they borrow from the, uh, from that now.
And concentrate the hunter education program.
And it doesn't teach you how to hunt, teach you about laws and ethics and animal
identification, all important things, but it doesn't teach you how to hunt.
I think we'd have a much better chance of getting hunter ed back into the school.
If, even if we just modularize these components, outdoor survival, uh, animal
ID, um, maybe you've just keep the laws as a separate add on they can do after.
What are your thoughts on that as a professional educator?
Is there, are there legs to that?
I
Steve Wilson: absolutely there are.
And it's, it's like anything.
If we were to broaden our scope and look at it as like a passion driven thing,
like, I think what you would, where I would go with that as I would offer it,
I would find the opportunity to offer it outside of a timetable or set thing.
Cause the spark starts a fire.
Like I really do believe that most of the ideologies I've lived with
and worked with in the school system.
It's like, just get it going.
Just like a spark will start a fire.
So getting prepped for this, I, I.
I pulled all of, like I said, I pulled all of my classes and it was like, how many
of you have had a hunting experience with a mom, dad, caregiver, or grandparent?
And like 60 percent of the hands in every one of my classes
went up, which was surprising.
That surprises me.
It is.
Yeah.
And then, so I said, how many of you after that initial experience still
have a curiosity about hunting or angling and conservation in general?
And I think that's a really important piece to bring to the table too,
is that the idea of conservation, I think needs to be more well.
Um, we live in an era of environmentalism where I would love to see us transition
to the understanding of conservation far more than environmentalism.
Totally.
Because we have to continue to take from the planet and we are continuing to take
from our natural resources every day, but how do we take responsibly and sustainably
and ethically, that conversation is a much more functional conversation.
It's much less emotional.
Um.
And I think that we live in this emotionally knee jerk reaction situation
currently, like that's where the pendulum around education is swung.
It's like, this is right or wrong.
Right.
We should teach this or we shouldn't teach this.
Well, we know that that's, that that's never going to work because
there's every layer of gray in between those black and white worlds.
Right.
And so when we think about mental, emotional health, like that is the
grayest area that there is, cause there is no black and white answer to it.
So when we think about conservation, I love the idea of conservation because it
opens doors to conversation about how to keep this planet moving forward for future
generations, but it's also acknowledging the fact that progress comes at a cost.
Right.
And so when we think about hunter education and we think about bringing
that program in, I think, cause when I, and it's just, you know, I did pull
the classes and I said, how many of you would be, if I could offer you the
opportunity to get your hunter education safety course, how many of you would
be interested in taking that through while, Oh, I almost said the school name.
If I, if, if, if I could offer that through the school, how many of
you would be interested and like.
80 percent of the hands went up because I think there's an, there's a hunger for it.
There isn't a, there isn't, uh, a desire for people to learn about the outdoors.
I think there's a desire for people to understand their connectedness to nature.
I think
Travis Bader: that's, I think that's the biggest part of it.
And I think in the world where we're so heavily connected, I'm
going to use my air quotes here.
We've never been so disconnected.
We've never been so disconnected from each other, from our natural environment.
And I think more than anything, I think that's why podcasts are
popular and why people listen to them because they're lacking these
conversations in their real life.
And they able to sit down and listen to people and be like, I, I like that.
I've, I've got something that I can now use as a template to, to work forward.
Yeah.
Um, Yeah, no, I think there's, there's a hell of a lot of
value to the connection aspect
Steve Wilson: of that.
For sure.
There's a whole community waiting for people out there around, like, so if, and
the thing too, is if you have a curiosity, feed it, like feed your curiosity.
If you're curious about hunting, start asking around, Hey.
Do you hunt by chance?
Like I do this often in the high school because hunting is, is not something that
is super well thought of or regarded, but you see a kid walking through the
hallway with the first light hat on.
Right.
And there's this kid.
I've never met him before.
And I just looked at him.
I just gave him the nod and he nodded back and I was like, first light, eh?
And he's like, yep.
I said, you hunt with your pop.
And he's like, yeah, he's like, do you hunt?
I'm like, I do.
And all of a sudden now, boom, we've got a connection.
And I'll, I'm going to make a judgment statement and I probably shouldn't,
but that kid in particular doesn't seem super connected in our building.
Sure.
You know, cause he's wearing camouflage and he's, he's, and maybe
Travis Bader: there's a stigma associated with it and some people wear.
Everyone else thinks I'm like this.
Maybe that's who I am.
Steve Wilson: And that, that to me, I think is we can be anything we want to
be and we can have multiple identities.
Sure.
Like I'm Steve, the Steve, the mountain biker, like the last 25 years of my life.
That's what people have known me as.
And, and that's what people have, you know, sponsors know me.
Related to that world and whatnot.
And there's far more to me than that.
Sure.
I'm also Steve, the dad and I'm Steve, the backpacker and I'm Steve, the,
you know, gold rush character around a campfire with a bunch of kids.
And then I'm, and I'm also Steve, the hunter and I'm, and do I hope to broaden
that to Steve, the angler at some point down the road when I have more time?
Yeah, sure.
And I'm Steve, the philosophy guy.
And, and there's lots of layers to me.
And I think that's the problem is, is that folks will allow themselves to
be, um, Or they will self identify with something so hard that it stops them
from like branching out and finding other elements or aspects of themself.
That's for
Travis Bader: defining yourself.
And we had that conversation on the collective and, uh, I, I took it in a
different way because they wanted to talk about how you define yourself.
And I said, I don't think you should.
Yeah.
I think you should have some guiding principles that you can measure things
against and always be open to adjusting those guiding principles based on new
inputs that you're receiving, but these are your quick reactions and sort of.
You gotta go through the checklist.
I got my tree.
Does it match on one side or not?
I can make a decision and move forward.
Do I define myself in a set area?
No, I think that's extremely limiting.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Agreed.
I totally agree actually.
Cause then what happens is, is it, it creates echo chambers, which
I don't think is a healthy thing.
Um, and it, what it does is it limits your ability to have your own narrative.
Like when I tell the story of me, um.
It's my story.
Why would I ever give anybody else the power to tell my story?
Yeah.
Right.
Like that's the reality of it.
And so if I align with hunting and, and people in my other community and
I, and even being on this, like there's people in my community that would be
surprised that I'm, I'm a hunter and, and that's fine because they're allowed to
have their beliefs and their opinions.
It doesn't change who I am at all.
And I really hope if somebody.
Was surprised by that.
They would actually take the time to have a conversation with me about it.
I
Travis Bader: find a lot of people, Oh, there's Travis, the gun guy.
Yeah.
And there's like that quick, cause we do that.
We do, we like to identify and put people in boxes.
Yeah.
I've never considered myself a gun guy.
I've, I've been a subject matter expert in every level of court, federal,
provincial on firearms related matters.
Um, I teach courses.
I'm a master instructor in certain areas of firearms and I
don't self identify as a gun guy.
It's one of the things I do.
It's one of the things you
Steve Wilson: do.
And that's it.
And that, what that boils down to is really a sense of self, right?
And that's what I find like a beautiful thing about being in nature
is that you really find your best self out there because you have time.
Like when you're just sitting beside the river and you're having a game
of rocks with your, with either a kid or one of your best friends.
And there's just a piece of driftwood and you're just throwing pebbles at it.
I've yet to have an experience like that, that didn't come with great
conversation, you know, and it's interesting cause on one of our
backpacking programs we do at the high school, it's a six day experience, right?
And so that first couple of days, it's the full shakedown and kids are
figuring out who and what they are.
And they're either detoxing from their tech because the
tech doesn't work out there.
And you see kids go through with legitimate withdrawal for sure.
What does that look like?
Um, skittish behavior, um, hiding in their sleeping bags because, Oh yeah,
they still bring their phones with them, even though they don't work.
And so we have, we have a decision to make there as, as adults, like you.
If you rule with an iron fist in relation to certain things,
they just won't take you on.
They won't try you on.
So it's like, Hey kid, if you want to bring your phone to
use it as a camera, go ahead.
Sure.
But here's the disclaimer, the rain will ruin it.
The do will ruin it if you don't take care of it.
It's going to be a 600, 800, 900 paperweight.
Mom and dad will be choked, you know, so don't bring it.
But if you do, that's fine.
You can use it as your camera, but then you'll see them with their headlamps
on, especially after lights out, you'll like they'll have their mummy bag.
Tied right up, but you see the glow in there and it's coming from their phone.
Right.
And it's like, I actually catch, I didn't catch a kid doing anything.
There was just a kid I encountered who was like sending a text message
and I'm like, homeboy, there is no service for three days.
Like, who are you sending that message to?
And he's like, Oh no, we'll just, when it gets to service, it'll go.
Like, that's how, like they could not at that moment be detached from the tech.
Like they, what they thought, whatever they had to say to their buddy back home.
Was more important than being in that moment that they were in, but, you know,
fast forward a couple of days, all of a sudden you encounter that kid and we, we
had an archery based program, um, where one of our volunteers was a, um, an avid
archer and, you know, he brings some long bows out and there's that kid taking
a crack at archery and having a great time and like laughing with his buddies.
And I think that what I miss is that kids struggle to be kids, like,
like the actual spirit of play.
Like how many of us and our listeners are actually able to play?
Like take a rip, have some laughs, laugh at yourself, laugh with your
buddies, make a, you know, make an ass of yourself, maybe trying something or.
You know, you're right.
Travis Bader: Cause you look at kids nowadays.
Oh, I got, uh, we're going to get into dance.
So you're three years old.
Here's what your path looks like.
You have to pro dance for the girls.
Oh, you're going to get into baseball.
Okay.
So if you want to get on the fast track to the major league, you're going to have
to have the best coaches and the best.
Like what happened to just playing?
Steve Wilson: Well, and, uh, a neighbor, a neighbor friend of mine who has
been an avid hunter in his past, um, I invited him a couple of times.
Hey, like want to head out for a day hunt.
Let's just go out for a walk in the hills.
Knowing we're probably not going to score, but at the same
time, oh, I'd love to, but.
My son has this, or I'd love to, and overscheduling.
Oh man, we could do a whole podcast on overscheduling because it's
something that is a conscious choice, uh, to do or not to do.
And, you know, my son's fiercely athletic, like he's quite an
athletic critter and, and whatever he generally tries to do, he's.
Has success at, um, but we have been criticized for not
signing him up for things.
Cause I'm like, no, we're not overscheduling him.
Right.
He has to be able to play.
Yeah.
Like he just, they like, if, if the boys knock on the door, Hey, we're going
down to the school to play stick ball or blitz ball is a game they play now.
Like.
That's a beautiful thing.
What's
Travis Bader: blitz ball?
Is that what you get blitzed
Steve Wilson: when you play?
It's like a, I wish, but it's a, it's a style of ball that they throw and
it's got re you can do really crazy.
Um, it's like stick ball.
So imagine old school stick ball, but there's a new style of ball they use and
it, uh, it goes all in wonky, wonky ways.
And then, but they go to the school and they play stick ball like kids.
And that's a beautiful thing to me.
Like when you see kids down at a school being, making some noise, playing
ball, having fun, that's a, that's a.
The other side of that coin though, is like, you know, my son worked
quite hard and had some success at achieving some school things.
And so a VR headset, he wanted to get a VR headset and I appreciate tech.
Like I think tech is a really interesting thing.
Like, look at the new Burris Veracity pH.
Like I'm, I'm, I would love to get my hands on one of those
just for the tech part of it.
I don't know if it's any good, but, um, That to me is intriguing because tech
is, is coming into a space that could be very useful for me as a novice hunter
who doesn't understand his turrets well, like that would be cool just to be able
to dial up my range and go to work.
So for my son to say he can't have a VR headset.
Would make me a hypocrite.
And so, you know, but has that become a bit of a battle because it's so insular
and it's such an escapist technology, if you don't have the checks and balances
in place, it can take over, but that's where as a parent and a switched on
person personally, like I understand, yeah, you got to have a little escape.
That's okay.
Give yourself 30 minutes, but then we're going to transition away and
we're going to pivot to something else.
That's human connection.
And we talk about that quite a bit.
Um.
Both my kids have, uh, learning disabilities.
They're both dyslexic.
We found out in the last year, uh, which is really interesting because he's
such a masterful hider of his dyslexia.
Like he's made it to grade seven without us knowing he's dyslexic.
Sure.
I was
Travis Bader: diagnosed with ADHD dyslexia.
Steve Wilson: Sure.
Yeah.
And so what we're like, technology is going to be a part of his life, right?
Cause instead of him just refusing to read, which he's always been
a bit of an obstinate reader, it's like, let's use an ebook.
Sure.
Right.
Like, why would we, why would we fight that tech when it's there?
But it's about that idea of like, it doesn't define you.
You don't have to be just a gamer.
You don't have to be just a football kid.
You don't have to be, you can be all sorts of things and just
like put it into the melting pot.
And then at the end of it, you've got something pretty rad because there's
lots of cool ingredients in there.
You know, he's a great mountain biker.
Hopefully he's going to be a great hunter.
And whatever I can do to expose him, like I took him on the Harrison hike,
which is our six day backpacking program.
I took him on his 10th birthday.
He w he was out there for his 10th birthday.
And that was super special to share that with him out in the woods.
Yeah.
Cause you know, 75 other kids singing happy birthday around the fire.
How cool is that?
But then we also sang happy birthday for every other kid that had a birthday
out there, you know, and all of a sudden they are a part of something that is.
Profound, because it's a once in a lifetime thing for some of these kids.
Like they may never backpack again.
Yeah.
Well,
Travis Bader: that will never be the same experience again, will be the
same set of people will be the same, that whole circle of friends sort of,
Steve Wilson: and they said, but, and it's because they chose
to say yes to an opportunity.
And that's what I think if anybody's listening, it's like,
just say yes to the opportunities.
Like say yes, like don't, there's lots of reasons not to do things.
There's a tremendous amount of reasons not to do things.
You know, we did a float plane trip into the Chill Colton's a handful of years ago.
Um, uh, mountain bike trip, and it was like, I was not fit enough for that trip.
Mm-Hmm.
. But it was with people that I, I enjoy and it was with a crew that was safe and, and
like I knew our safety was gonna be good.
And I was like, yeah, I'm in.
Let's do it.
Travis Bader: It's amazing how your life changes when you take that
attitude of, yeah, okay, let's do it.
Just say, yes.
Am I fearful or am I excited?
Yeah.
Right.
How do I, how do I reframe that?
And I do that with my kids too.
Like, well, I'm afraid.
Okay.
Are you afraid or excited?
If we look at it as excited, it's the same sort of feelings,
but when you're able to, uh,
Steve Wilson: one's automatically negative.
Right.
One has a more positive slant on it.
Right.
And it's like, choose the positivity.
It's okay to be scared.
I'm scared all the time.
Sure.
But it's like, I'm generally, the juice is worth the squeeze.
And I think that's so, because like, I think I have a pretty healthy
filter for what's going to go a good direction and what has the
potential to go a sideways direction.
Have you had
Travis Bader: many things go sideways?
Um, And I asked, because, you know, I had a friend, he's ex British army and
SAS actually, he's been on the podcast in the past and he's into Alpinism and
he's now with Vancouver fire and doing the, but, um, I asked him, I relay a few
different harrowing experiences that I've had where things have gone basically awry.
And I said, but you must have a lot.
He's like, looking at me quizzically.
He's like, no, Trav.
No, I don't.
Yeah.
We're, we're operating a little bit differently here.
I take a look at all the checks and balances, make sure
I'm moving through safely.
Whereas perhaps my style, which I've worked on has been, yeah, I can do it.
Yeah.
And just jump in and go.
Yeah, that's
Steve Wilson: right.
Yeah.
I think I've probably been a bit more cautious, um, because other people's
lives are in the balance, right?
Like my per, I, I was in Alaska, we got into, we did the Chilkoot trail, um,
which is a five day backpacking trip.
We made a, we made a poor choice around weather, um, and not direct, like based
on the Intel we had, we, they said, if you can see the mountain peak at
daybreak and it's clear, you'll be okay.
Even though the forecast was a bit dodgy and we knew there was weather coming.
So we got up at four.
First peak of day.
And we decided, okay, we can see the top.
We're going to go.
And we got into a howler right, right in the golden stairs.
And it was like, we didn't have crampons.
Um, and that was a boot packing situation that, that was harrowing.
Um, but we made it and that's a good one.
We got stuck at the Arctic circle one time as well, up above Eagle plains.
Um, in Hurricane Alley there, and they hadn't dropped the barrier for the road
cause there was a wind warning in play.
And we got up to the Arctic, the actual Arctic circle monuments,
like where it is there.
And the wind was blowing so hard that it literally picked the truck up off
the ground and moved it to the other side of the road and just set it down.
And that one was a bit sporty because it was late at night.
Um, we stuck the thermometer just out the window, cracked it, and it was 56 below.
Um.
We couldn't see, it was full white out.
And so I had to gear up and go out and basically posthole to find
the ditch, the ditch edges so we could get the truck turned around.
And we managed to get back to Eagle Plains.
Uh, and literally they had to open the barrier up for us to come back.
And that one was like a, okay, we should have done a better job of looking at
that forecast and going, you know what, let's just bed down here tonight, as
opposed to trying to push through.
And, um, Yeah, we had to make some good decisions around that.
And, and luckily everything's worked out for the best.
I've yet to have a one that's gone
Travis Bader: because when it does, it's over.
So yeah.
It always
Steve Wilson: works there.
Yeah.
Doesn't, yeah, for sure.
You know, I've, the, the two search and rescue jackpots I've been in, um,
those have been very, very welcomed.
Uh, not in the moment, of course, but when you reflect and debrief
on those after the fact, like I, I've always said yes to training.
Mm-Hmm.
, whenever there's been an opportunity to train.
Like whether it's wilderness first aid, like everybody who's listening.
If you're going to venture into the woods, get yourself a solid
base of wilderness first aid.
Um, in the mountain bike world, I've used my first aid like dozens of times.
Um, some of them quite critical and in my backpacking, um, space with the high
school kids, we actually had to do an extraction of an adult who had like an
appendicitis, um, episode middle of the night, um, 3000 feet up in the mountains.
It was a heli extraction that night in particular was quite, uh, that was a
test of all of my skills, but at the same time, incredibly grateful that I
had them, um, cause it worked out well.
And, and it comes back to being useful, right?
Like if you can be useful and of service, that to me is a very fulfilling feeling.
That's one of the things that's kept me in the field is I love being useful.
That's man's search for meaning.
I, it really is.
And, and why we search, why we search so hard for it, I think is just whether it's
self validation or self worth or whatever it is, it's a broader conversation.
But, uh, yeah, I think if you can get your hands trained and a mind
that wants to do the work, then you're incredibly useful to others.
So we've
Travis Bader: talked about a broad spectrum of things here.
Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about?
Steve Wilson: I would love to maybe even just spend a little bit of
time, like encouraging people to just like to dig into themselves
and to find something to believe in.
Whether it's hunting, whether it's fishing, whether it's working out,
whether it's riding bikes, like I just, I'm feeling, I won't say sorrowful,
but one of the feelings I've been struggling with myself is just like
seeing the world around me of people that are disconnected with themselves.
Like somebody said this the other day, they're like, who
would you want to go to war with?
And I didn't have a strong answer because I don't feel like I'm surrounded
by people that I strongly believe in, in terms of their own passions,
their self belief, their self worth.
They're like, like, who would you go to war with is an interesting question.
Like when I go to war with Seb all day, every day, cause that
he's a grounded individual.
And he's, he knows, like I, if the chips were down.
That's a dude you'd want at your six.
Travis Bader: You see, I look at that question a little differently
and who would I go to war with?
My head immediately goes to, okay, what is this war?
Yeah.
What's my input?
Yep.
How do I change the course of this?
Sure.
How do I, I've, I've, I've never had that.
Who, who's got my six, who's at my side.
Who's, who am I going to go to war with?
It's always, there's a way that at some point we are masters of our own
destiny and we have an extraordinary amount of agency and influence over our
own lives and what happens around us.
How can I exert that in a way where I don't have to have call on somebody
to go to war, which is, I don't know if that's the right way to answer
that question or not, but that's immediately where my head goes.
Yeah.
Steve Wilson: And, and I don't think that's a wrong way at all.
I think.
Probably my lens has just been shaped through the, my day to day experiences
and like looking after others and caring for others and some days that does feel
war ish, like when we have critical incidences in the school or if there's
the death of a staff member or a student or like, those are heavy moments.
That you need allies and strong people beside you, because you know, you're
going to take it from multiple fronts.
And I think when I think about, and we, it's interesting because we never
even got to this, but like sorta how this all came to be like my connection
to Seb and sort of, I strongly believe that education should be, um, rolled
into part of the first response model.
I really do.
Like when you look at our first responders and service people across all realms,
um, education is without a doubt.
An anchoring piece of that, because all of those people have been trained.
All of those people are in roles where they train others, that's education.
And when you look at the critical incidences and the rise in critical
incidences with youth and minors, it's like, who are the first, what is the
general first line of defense for that?
Teachers, counselors, the bridge between the school system and families
and community services, whether it's mental health services, victim services.
Hopefully parents.
You would hope so for sure.
Yeah.
And so I, you know, are there teachers that have encountered enough
that they could be classified as dealing, you know, with like PTSD?
Sure.
I.
I completely agree that I've been assaulted at work several times.
And it's like, I've, I've also been part of a useful team that put
myself in that situation because it was necessary to protect others.
And, you know, luckily I've got lots of tools at my disposal,
so nothing manifested in a negative way for me about it, but.
We're dealing with hard kids on a daily basis with unprecedented situations,
whether it's cyber challenges, whether it's social media, whether
it's, uh, health and wellness, mental health and wellness in particular,
like we are on the front lines.
And I know people will hear that and probably think, oh, dude, you're dreaming.
But I really encourage you to, to, to entertain that thought, because
when you think about this concept of going to war, it's like some days you
walk into the building and you really don't know what you're going to get.
And so what I love to surround myself with is people who I know
are squared away and who have a real strong sense of self because they
have passions and they're grounded and they're rooted in who they are.
So when the chips go down, I know who I'm looking to my left and
right for, because they're solid folks who are really, really rooted.
And I, I think my experiences in the wilderness have like, we've had some.
We've had, we were on the Juan de Fuca trail one time and a storm surge
came in in the middle of the night and my tent gets shaken at 2 AM and we
have a king tide and all of a sudden six tents are swamped with seawater
because we're on a very limited beach.
And it was like, we're timing the waves to run down the beach.
And we're getting kids out of their racks and we're getting kids into other racks.
And we're trying to square away gear and equipment.
And that team of people I was with on that experience, like that's what I'm
talking about is people that are, are squared away, that have incredible sense
of self that, you know, you work the problem until the problem is resolved.
And then you have incredible debrief after and you learn how to get better.
I think
Travis Bader: it's, most people won't know that until they're in that situation.
I know.
Right.
And that's why it's important to put ourselves into safe.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Risks.
Absolutely.
And, and things and things that fire you up, like be fired up.
I like, I worry about being like, well, I was on a Skytrain recently, which I try to
avoid because it's just, it, my, I'm too sensory for the Skytrain, but it's like,
we're heading downtown to a concert, my brother and I, and it was like, I'm just
watching people stare at their phones.
I'm watching people that are incredibly situationally unaware, and
they're just moving through space.
What do you mean
Travis Bader: you're too sensory for
Steve Wilson: the Skytrain?
Uh, just, I feel too much.
I just, I, I feel, I feel people.
I feel emotions.
I feel the dangers.
I feel a lot.
I'm just like a pretty perceptive guy.
That way I always have been, um, then wonder where my kids get it, but, um,
it's yeah, like, But it's just, yeah, it's just people like, I, I struggle with, with
watching the world go by on autopilot.
I feel like our, our life is such a gift that to just go through
life on autopilot really is, is, I won't ever say it's a waste.
Cause some is better than none always, but I really wonder if people could find.
Like just greater depth and meaning for themselves.
If they just dug into something a little bit, just said, yes, just said, yes.
Like, just say yes.
You know, coming on a podcast or going on a mental health walk
or, or going to the gym, right.
Go to the gym for 10 minutes.
If you get through 10 minutes, you will get through 10 more.
That's right.
Yeah.
If somebody offers you an opportunity to go on a trip, it's like, Hey,
have you ever backpacked before?
No.
Let me take you backpacking.
Okay, let's go like have a scary experience and come out the other
side, you know, getting stood up by a grizz, like I, we had a grizzly
bear encounter in Alaska as well.
That was like as real as it gets.
And I'm so grateful for it because We did everything that we were supposed to do
and it w it worked out okay for us, but it was touch and go, like very much so.
And I'm so much better for that experience.
Like I'm, because like if somebody says, well, yeah, you,
what do you know about fear?
Let me tell you.
Yeah, it can be pretty fearful.
I can tell you about fear and I can tell you how it felt and I
can tell you what we did and I can tell you why I'm better for it.
And then if that gives them a little bit of permission, just to go out into
the world and try something not as, as harrowing or dangerous, or maybe it's
just, and I honestly feel like if people are struggling and I've struggled,
like I'll, I'll be honest, like I've, I have had dark times for sure, but I
always forced myself to make one step.
Travis Bader: I think a lot of people have a difficult, like a lot.
A number of the things that you've said here, um, you know,
just say yes, just go to the gym.
Just, they're going to find reasons why they can't, whether that's their
playlist or whatever it might be.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, and they'll say, well, it's easy for you to say, you're
a sponsored mountain biker.
Oh, it's easy for you to say this sort of thing.
You had this harrowing experience that shaped you into these things.
I think the, one of the takeaways that people should.
Look at is the fact that it doesn't matter.
Like the level of fear that somebody experiences is going to be relative to
what they've experienced in the past.
And to be comparative in such a way that, Oh, well, you had this grizzly
bear experience and I just had this, this Rottweiler experience and right.
Or whatever it might be.
I think there's a real caution that has to be played with trying to compare our
experiences and our ways in the same way that PTSD, when they say, well, have I
been in put in PTSD type experiences?
Well, maybe not from a DSM five, uh, model standpoint, but the DSM five, isn't
the be all end all on, on this thing.
I think there's, it's a hell of a lot more nuance than that.
So I, I think, um, that just say yes mantra that you're saying there,
if people can say, just say yes.
And.
Take that for a small step.
Steve Wilson: That's it.
That's all it is in it.
Cause one step will lead to another.
And that's that spark starts a fire kind of thing that I live by.
And, and, you know, we've talked about that on the collective too.
It's like comparisons and comparative behavior is, is very.
It's a thief of joy.
It is a thief of joy, but it's so pervasive now and you know, like.
It's, uh, if you look at the Instagram model, right?
Like, and Seb's spoken about it.
We've all spoken about it for sure, because we understand that it's like what
you're seeing there is not real life.
Oh.
It could be the result of somebody taking 20 hours to represent 30 seconds.
You know, like I've, I've, uh, a group of friends that are filmmakers in the
mountain bike world, um, make some of the finest films that I believe
exist in terms of trying to connect.
An action with a feeling, that's what I love about their filmmaking is it
makes me feel what it means to me.
Like I, if I have, you know, photography is a beautiful thing.
I'm terrible at it because what I love about photography is
it elicits a physical, like an emotional and physical response.
And that's what I think.
You know, like hunting is so visceral that way where it's like, it, it elicits
an emotional and physical response.
So imagery can do it.
Experiences can do it.
Conversation can do it.
Um, achievements can do it.
So whatever it is that floats your boat or blows your hair back, go get some,
because that feeling will help you get up the next day to find that feeling again.
And, and, and it doesn't have to be profound, right?
Like when it, when the darkness is there, Just get into the light, and I literally
mean go outside, let the sun touch your face, open your blinds, set a time limit
on your TV, so that, okay, when that thing shuts off, I am purposefully going
to stand up and I am going to go outside.
And if I'm, I'm maybe today is a 10 minute walk, maybe tomorrow's a 15
minute, 20 minute hike into the woods in my local park, like whatever it is.
And that's where the autopilot thing is that I struggle with on the
daily is because you see people just moving through space, but they have,
what opportunity have they missed?
And I think what happens with that is judgment comes into play
and judgment along with ego, boy, oh boy, that's a toxic combo.
Right.
If Travis is on the Silvercore podcast saying, just take one step and you
don't get up and take that next step the next day, is the potential there
for that person to feel less than because of that, because somebody
said they should, and they didn't.
Depends on how they frame it, but yes.
Yeah.
And that, and that's my worry overall.
Like that's one of my bigger worries is that people will feel that judgment from
others, especially whether it's, if it's a comparative model, which we know is
self destructive, will that limit them?
So much that they just, they just don't take the step.
Like,
Travis Bader: you know, there's a lot to be said for, um, for judgment as well.
I know some countries when they took a look at their addiction crisis and they
actually have a social shaming portion of the, um, uh, of the rehabilitation.
Basically you got, you group your peers and you got to stand
up and talk about the things.
Because people naturally want to conform to the group.
It's just sort of a human nature thing.
I think a certain level of judgment is good, but if it's framed in a
healthy way, and I think that's where a lot of this social media doesn't
provide the context for people to frame that in a way that's maybe
Steve Wilson: positive.
I strongly believe that.
Yes.
And so, and when we talked earlier, we talked about the idea of empathy
being a feeling and compassion being the action, I think accountability.
And responsibility share the same duality.
So like I see accountability as a feeling.
If, if you call me out and you say, Steve, you know, I don't think you're
being the guy that I know you can be right now, that's eliciting a
feeling in me of accountability.
You're holding me accountable, but then it's my job to be responsible
and actually take a step towards.
What it is you've now asked me to be or, or called me out about.
And, and do you have an, like, do we as mentors or friends or partners, or
do we have a responsibility in that?
Of course, but the same way that empathy can lead to action, accountability can
lead to responsibility, which is the action of taking that step forward.
And I don't, I've yet to encounter a person or a scenario where more
responsibility would be a bad thing.
Yeah.
Now, in, in terms of those that are maybe there's an age, a couple of, there's two,
uh, principles I've recently learned about one's called expectation creep, because
as like, say as a great boss, you're, you're probably have those anchors in your
community that you'd be like, man, if I know, if I ask Bill to do this, Bill's
going to do a crackerjack job of it.
Now what happens is, you know, Bill's reliable.
Um, so you go to Bill again.
Over and over.
And then all of a sudden Bill's now the man, but he's also doing a lot
more than he was supposed to be doing.
And, and what, and then education, the concept of that
is called performance punishment.
And so when you burn people out, that is generally a result
that good ones get burnt out.
The bad ones don't ever feel the burnout.
No.
Cause they don't, they're not effective.
Right.
So that's a very interesting line too, because being, I think, a good
person who holds people accountable and responsible is also could be
helping them take stuff off their plate so they have more time for self.
Travis Bader: So in the same mantra of just say, yes, we're also
Steve Wilson: going to say, just say no.
A hundred percent.
And that's at healthy boundaries, right?
And that's something that education in particular does a really poor
job of is having healthy boundaries.
Which is why your teacher's kids are just nuked.
Like I'm on the first day of Christmas break and our
building was vacant by three 10.
It was like the place just ran for the door.
Travis Bader: Well, I think that's where people have a tough time.
Okay.
I'll just say yes.
Okay.
I'll just say no.
Yeah.
But where, what should I be saying no to?
What should I be saying yes to?
And honestly, I think deep down, we know in our heart.
We absolutely do.
I think if we were really, truly honest with ourself, I'd say I'm
saying no to this because I'm afraid, or I'm saying no to this
because I realized I need some rest.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's, and we'll, we generally don't want to disappoint others.
Right, right.
Those of us that are in the hustle of helping others, we generally don't
want to disappoint others, but then it comes at a cost and every, so burnout
is an incredibly real thing, right?
Like as an athlete, when I was a gymnast, I was so, I made a national team my
last year of my career, if you will.
Um, and I was so fried that I didn't even want to go to nationals.
Like that should have been a lifelong achievement.
Was to make a national team.
And I was cooked.
I was done.
It retired me because of the struggle that it had taken with
no nurturing to get to that point.
Whereas now it's like, I, you know, I had, I said it to a colleague the other day.
I said, look, I care about you, but you're cooked.
And I can see it and here's how I'm seeing it.
And I'm sorry if that hurts, but I'm telling you because I care.
I'm wondering if there's an opportunity for you to take a
little bit better care of yourself.
And does that mean taking a day?
And then it was like, how can I help you get there?
How can I support you in this?
Not because they, just cause I'm their friend and I'm
there and I care about them.
Right.
But it's like being willing to say that and being willing to
say, here's why I'm saying it.
I think those are really important things, um, that help people learn
how to draw healthy boundaries for themselves, you know, and I'm, and
I, I think just inclusive language of that on the daily is, is important.
I'm
Travis Bader: just looking at the time here and I think we're, I
think we should, uh, wrap it up, but I also think, uh, you've got an
invite to be back on the podcast.
Cause there's a lot more that I'd like to talk to you
Steve Wilson: about.
Sure.
I'd love to.
Travis Bader: Awesome.
I'm into it.
Steve, thank you so much for being on the Silverbook Podcast.
Thanks for
Steve Wilson: having me.