1 00:00:01,250 --> 00:00:03,409 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:03,570 --> 00:00:04,720 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,230 --> 00:00:08,260 In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with J. 4 00:00:08,260 --> 00:00:08,480 T. 5 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,350 Torres, Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning, 6 00:00:11,829 --> 00:00:12,739 Quinnipiac University. 7 00:00:13,540 --> 00:00:17,209 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 8 00:00:17,329 --> 00:00:19,189 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 9 00:00:19,469 --> 00:00:22,500 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 10 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:24,080 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 11 00:00:26,130 --> 00:00:32,645 You know, we'd already talked about, sort of a lot of mainstream, um, you 12 00:00:32,645 --> 00:00:37,214 know, sort of views of higher education today and some of it's not in a positive 13 00:00:37,235 --> 00:00:41,794 way because some, you know, I think that we can probably agree that, you 14 00:00:41,795 --> 00:00:43,924 know, cost is definitely an issue. 15 00:00:44,444 --> 00:00:48,835 Um, you know, affordability, of course, you know, we, you know, like, and, and, 16 00:00:48,835 --> 00:00:54,245 and, and, and to be inclusive, that's a whole other, you know, A thing to throw 17 00:00:54,245 --> 00:01:00,795 into the mix of factors, but I, I, I do want to talk about the product, the 18 00:01:00,795 --> 00:01:02,735 experience of higher education itself. 19 00:01:02,795 --> 00:01:04,944 You talked about first year experience, which you love. 20 00:01:05,004 --> 00:01:13,714 I love it too, but a someone who's eager to become, you know, X, whatever it 21 00:01:13,714 --> 00:01:15,995 is, a nurse, an engineer or whatever. 22 00:01:16,135 --> 00:01:16,435 Right. 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,450 You know, I've seen people who are like, either themselves or their parents, you 24 00:01:22,450 --> 00:01:27,540 know, being frustrated that, can I just go take that computer science class? 25 00:01:27,540 --> 00:01:30,060 Can I just go write code today? 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,569 Or if I'm a nurse, can I just learn how to, you know, do, perform 27 00:01:34,570 --> 00:01:38,450 some procedures with, you know, with, with a patient or, you know, 28 00:01:38,450 --> 00:01:40,970 give me some hard biology, right? 29 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,250 Why am I taking this class? 30 00:01:43,884 --> 00:01:48,454 That sets, you know, ecological studies of, you know, um, of 31 00:01:48,465 --> 00:01:50,435 food and agriculture and society. 32 00:01:51,555 --> 00:01:55,835 Why am I, why am I going to have to do that if I'm going to become a nurse? 33 00:01:56,244 --> 00:01:59,875 I feel like I have some good answers, but I think yours is going to be bad. 34 00:01:59,974 --> 00:02:02,665 So I Well, I don't, I don't know. 35 00:02:02,665 --> 00:02:05,355 I don't know because I, as I'm hearing you articulate that and 36 00:02:05,355 --> 00:02:06,945 we run into that a lot here. 37 00:02:06,945 --> 00:02:10,884 So, you know, when I say here again, a professional university means that the 38 00:02:10,884 --> 00:02:14,084 way we market and the way we recruit students means that we're promising 39 00:02:14,084 --> 00:02:18,135 them fast tracks to the professions that they want, to the salaries that 40 00:02:18,135 --> 00:02:19,425 they want, the careers that they want. 41 00:02:19,614 --> 00:02:22,215 We get a lot of students who ask those questions, right? 42 00:02:22,215 --> 00:02:24,345 Like, why do I have to do a general ed curriculum? 43 00:02:24,605 --> 00:02:26,495 Why do I have to think critically? 44 00:02:26,495 --> 00:02:29,015 Why do I have to, you know, be in these courses, right? 45 00:02:29,075 --> 00:02:31,385 That's, that's frequent here, especially because of the university. 46 00:02:31,405 --> 00:02:37,245 Um, and I have to say, I don't, I have a lot of empathy for those 47 00:02:37,245 --> 00:02:38,355 students asking those questions. 48 00:02:38,554 --> 00:02:40,325 I think our curriculum needs a lot of revision. 49 00:02:40,325 --> 00:02:42,565 I don't just mean Quinnipiac higher education in general. 50 00:02:42,845 --> 00:02:45,135 Um, and I think there's a lot of limitations because of, 51 00:02:45,215 --> 00:02:46,394 because of accreditation, right? 52 00:02:46,394 --> 00:02:48,364 We're just used to doing things in certain ways. 53 00:02:48,625 --> 00:02:51,774 We're used to assessing what we're doing in certain ways, and I 54 00:02:51,785 --> 00:02:56,510 don't think curriculum Um, reform or even transformation has kept 55 00:02:56,510 --> 00:02:57,690 up with the changing landscape. 56 00:02:57,690 --> 00:02:59,440 So I have empathy for those students. 57 00:02:59,450 --> 00:03:02,950 I think that they've been messaged throughout their entire lives to 58 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:06,160 get your salary as fast as you can get your career as fast as you can. 59 00:03:06,380 --> 00:03:08,480 So we can't blame them for asking those questions. 60 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:13,145 What we have to do in the meantime is Remind them why 61 00:03:13,165 --> 00:03:15,415 those, those topics are important. 62 00:03:15,745 --> 00:03:19,135 This goes back to the just in case versus just in time learning, right? 63 00:03:19,145 --> 00:03:23,094 Um, we cannot keep doing the just in case education, um, because 64 00:03:23,095 --> 00:03:24,395 it's too expensive, right? 65 00:03:24,395 --> 00:03:27,395 I also have that point of empathy because tuition is so expensive. 66 00:03:27,395 --> 00:03:31,575 If I'm coming to school to be a nurse, um, and I don't know, you know, that 67 00:03:31,585 --> 00:03:35,985 I can benefit from having a much broader interdisciplinary perspective. 68 00:03:35,985 --> 00:03:40,025 If no one's ever explained that to me and I'm paying 70 to 100,000 69 00:03:40,025 --> 00:03:43,149 dollars depending on the university that I go to to be a nurse. 70 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,290 I want that to be as cheap as possible and I want, and I 71 00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:47,340 don't want to incur those debts. 72 00:03:47,350 --> 00:03:48,769 So I am going to ask those questions. 73 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:49,609 Why am I here? 74 00:03:49,890 --> 00:03:50,100 Right. 75 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:51,489 And I think that's totally legitimate. 76 00:03:51,689 --> 00:03:54,670 What we have to do is go back to that just in time education, right? 77 00:03:54,670 --> 00:03:57,310 So when I have students, um, I'll just speak to my experience. 78 00:03:58,209 --> 00:04:01,459 I've had students ask why they do need to take a first year writing 79 00:04:01,459 --> 00:04:04,494 class or why they're taking an ecological literacy class. 80 00:04:04,525 --> 00:04:04,805 Class. 81 00:04:04,805 --> 00:04:07,295 And you know, the class isn't called that, but why are they going to 82 00:04:07,325 --> 00:04:10,725 sit in a semester where they're reading about food and agriculture? 83 00:04:11,085 --> 00:04:14,045 I have to start right away with the student experience. 84 00:04:14,344 --> 00:04:15,144 What do you eat? 85 00:04:15,905 --> 00:04:17,235 What do you care about eating? 86 00:04:17,435 --> 00:04:20,315 Um, have you known anybody who's had foodborne illness, right? 87 00:04:20,365 --> 00:04:22,575 Start with this place of desire. 88 00:04:22,825 --> 00:04:24,775 Um, start with this place of connection. 89 00:04:24,995 --> 00:04:28,375 One thing that I've, I've done is I've tried to jump out ahead of that question. 90 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,020 So I, you know, we have a pretty robust School of Health Science, um, we have 91 00:04:34,030 --> 00:04:38,229 lots of nursing students here, um, lots of OT, (Occupational Therapy) students, 92 00:04:38,529 --> 00:04:41,340 um, so I, I get a lot of School of Health Science students and they come 93 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:42,729 in with those same prerogatives, right? 94 00:04:42,729 --> 00:04:45,080 They just want to know when do I get to be a nurse, right? 95 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:45,989 When do I get certified? 96 00:04:46,019 --> 00:04:48,400 And so I don't rack up all these, all these student loans. 97 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,395 Um, First day of class, I ask them, I make it an icebreaker, a community 98 00:04:53,395 --> 00:04:57,115 building activity where I say, um, you know, some of your nurses, some of 99 00:04:57,115 --> 00:05:00,035 your engineers, but we're going to read about the environment this semester 100 00:05:00,305 --> 00:05:01,785 as an introduction about yourself. 101 00:05:02,005 --> 00:05:06,725 Can you tell me how you think your future career connects with the environment? 102 00:05:07,024 --> 00:05:07,254 Right? 103 00:05:07,284 --> 00:05:09,965 And then they come out just because I prompted them and I made it an 104 00:05:09,965 --> 00:05:11,495 environment where it's conversational. 105 00:05:11,515 --> 00:05:12,275 I'm not lecturing. 106 00:05:12,275 --> 00:05:13,055 I'm just asking. 107 00:05:13,265 --> 00:05:14,445 Here's a thought experiment. 108 00:05:14,585 --> 00:05:15,785 What do you think the connections are? 109 00:05:15,995 --> 00:05:16,555 And I'll. 110 00:05:16,725 --> 00:05:20,315 Regularly hear from, uh, students, the nursing students who will say 111 00:05:20,315 --> 00:05:23,535 something like hospitals create an enormous amount of waste. 112 00:05:23,935 --> 00:05:26,385 Here's an article I found that talks about the weight, the environmental 113 00:05:26,385 --> 00:05:31,685 waste of, of pharmaceuticals, of, of the, um, of single use protective equipment. 114 00:05:31,915 --> 00:05:32,105 Right? 115 00:05:32,105 --> 00:05:34,205 And then they come out and they start saying like, Oh, wow, there's 116 00:05:34,205 --> 00:05:35,445 an environmental impact here. 117 00:05:35,695 --> 00:05:36,524 My goal. 118 00:05:37,354 --> 00:05:40,974 A large goal for everybody is to just realize everything is connected. 119 00:05:41,255 --> 00:05:43,945 Um, my favorite movie is everything, everywhere, all at once. 120 00:05:44,335 --> 00:05:47,164 All right, and so I, I want to create that, but in a classroom. 121 00:05:47,164 --> 00:05:50,074 I just want people to see that all the multiple universes that 122 00:05:50,075 --> 00:05:52,525 are out there connect in some way. 123 00:05:52,784 --> 00:05:55,804 And if you just, if you're open to that, if you realize that there's no such 124 00:05:55,804 --> 00:05:59,364 thing as an individual course, as an individual human or individual profession. 125 00:05:59,835 --> 00:06:02,254 Every decision we make has an impact on someone else. 126 00:06:02,554 --> 00:06:05,874 Not only are we more likely to have empathy and inclusivity, but 127 00:06:05,874 --> 00:06:09,654 we're also understanding how this course connects with this course. 128 00:06:11,174 --> 00:06:12,015 I think that's lovely. 129 00:06:12,044 --> 00:06:14,704 And I, by the way, I also agree with you. 130 00:06:14,724 --> 00:06:16,794 I want to go back a little bit on that. 131 00:06:16,834 --> 00:06:22,755 Um, you had mentioned about, you know, we, we do need a um 132 00:06:22,955 --> 00:06:25,625 reform in, in higher education. 133 00:06:25,705 --> 00:06:28,675 Um, it's, it's really far from perfect. 134 00:06:28,675 --> 00:06:31,375 And, and a part of it is, you know, like you were saying, how 135 00:06:31,375 --> 00:06:33,575 we assess them and accreditation. 136 00:06:34,174 --> 00:06:40,374 Um, maybe for those who don't understand the, all of the 137 00:06:40,384 --> 00:06:42,145 relationships, what does that mean? 138 00:06:42,414 --> 00:06:44,065 Like what's accreditation? 139 00:06:44,065 --> 00:06:45,975 What has it got to do with it? 140 00:06:46,295 --> 00:06:48,355 And why do we, why is it so broken? 141 00:06:48,425 --> 00:06:54,220 Like if, if we, you know, JT just said it like it's it's don't get me in trouble. 142 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:54,690 I didn't say that. 143 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:55,140 I'm just joking. 144 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:55,560 I'm joking. 145 00:06:56,470 --> 00:07:01,320 This is a part that you know, um is bottlenecking us from yeah, 146 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:09,129 it is a bottleneck to to to make make big strides into An improved 147 00:07:09,130 --> 00:07:12,000 version of it that I think many of us can Could see and would like to 148 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,570 see, and it's worth a lot of money. 149 00:07:14,570 --> 00:07:17,540 There's a lot of research, you know, they say it can save a lot of time. 150 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:21,310 It can make all those students who are asking those questions, they 151 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:22,770 will provide an answer to them. 152 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:25,960 So why are we doing like, what's the, what's the hold up? 153 00:07:26,390 --> 00:07:28,249 Yeah, no, really great question. 154 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,739 Um, and it also relates back to our earlier conversation about the falling, 155 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:38,230 the declining trust in higher education, accreditation serves to make sure That we 156 00:07:38,230 --> 00:07:39,760 are doing what we say we are doing, right? 157 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,110 It is a very, very important mechanism, right? 158 00:07:42,110 --> 00:07:43,630 It just makes, it's quality control. 159 00:07:43,830 --> 00:07:48,120 It makes sure that when you go to one university, um, and you accumulate 160 00:07:48,179 --> 00:07:51,940 a certain amount of credits, um, in pursuit of a major, those credits 161 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:55,499 should have the same value as a different university that you go to, 162 00:07:55,499 --> 00:07:57,859 regardless of prestige and name, right? 163 00:07:57,859 --> 00:08:00,060 It's just making sure that we are delivering. 164 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,500 What we say that we are delivering to the community. 165 00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:09,139 Um, reform, um, is very, very difficult because there's declining 166 00:08:09,139 --> 00:08:11,289 trust in higher education as it is. 167 00:08:11,650 --> 00:08:14,059 Um, and I don't know that it's necessarily a broken system. 168 00:08:14,059 --> 00:08:15,949 It's just a system that worked for a different time. 169 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,799 I don't think the system has caught up with the changing landscape. 170 00:08:19,069 --> 00:08:22,849 Um, and it's changing so fast that we're all kind of confused about 171 00:08:22,849 --> 00:08:24,429 how how we go about changing. 172 00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:28,009 And, um, that landscape has to do with, you know, falling. 173 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,260 Falling attendance, falling enrollment, with increasing tuition, with AI, with 174 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:36,200 the pandemic, you know, all these factors have dramatically changed the landscape. 175 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:42,330 And so, accreditation bodies and agencies are probably not keen on a 176 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:46,719 whole new transformation right now when everybody feels that the, that the 177 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,590 land underneath us is very unstable. 178 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:51,510 Um, and so, we need to find a way to maintain trust. 179 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,355 Uh, a quick example is, you know, I love using ePortfolios because I 180 00:08:56,355 --> 00:08:58,635 believe in holistic assessment, right? 181 00:08:58,635 --> 00:09:02,205 The power of an e portfolio again, you're making learning visible, but 182 00:09:02,205 --> 00:09:05,584 you also get to tell the story of your own learning of your journey. 183 00:09:06,044 --> 00:09:07,315 You get to see it happen. 184 00:09:07,455 --> 00:09:10,435 You get to include the data that's relevant to you, and you get to 185 00:09:10,435 --> 00:09:12,015 reflect back on what you're doing. 186 00:09:12,265 --> 00:09:15,834 Um, that's really difficult to share across massive 187 00:09:15,834 --> 00:09:17,734 bodies of stakeholders, right? 188 00:09:17,744 --> 00:09:20,530 Institutions to, to, to It's so much easier for us to 189 00:09:20,530 --> 00:09:21,860 share grades, for instance. 190 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:27,070 Um, so I love ePortfolios, especially in the context of the ungrading movement. 191 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:30,420 I work with a lot of educators K through 12 or in college who want to 192 00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:32,029 find ways to ungrade their classes. 193 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,175 And I am philosophically behind The concept of ungrading, right? 194 00:09:36,175 --> 00:09:39,785 I understand that grades are an institutional communication mechanism. 195 00:09:39,785 --> 00:09:43,515 It's just easier for us to say who somebody is in terms of a GPA than 196 00:09:43,515 --> 00:09:46,765 it is to say, look at this brilliant ePortfolio they have, right? 197 00:09:46,765 --> 00:09:51,695 Like, we just don't have enough people in the room to go in that direction. 198 00:09:51,905 --> 00:09:57,265 So while I'm philosophically behind ungrading, I also reflect on if 199 00:09:57,645 --> 00:10:00,605 colleges and universities like imagine tomorrow if all the universities 200 00:10:00,615 --> 00:10:03,394 said, we're going to get rid of grades because we want to be more equitable. 201 00:10:03,645 --> 00:10:06,615 My heart would be jumping up and down, but I have to imagine 202 00:10:06,644 --> 00:10:07,904 from the public perception. 203 00:10:07,915 --> 00:10:08,905 It's going to look like. 204 00:10:09,064 --> 00:10:10,185 So then you're a degree mill. 205 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,210 How are you evaluating students, right? 206 00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:13,960 Like, where's the quality control? 207 00:10:14,180 --> 00:10:17,110 And then I imagine accreditation bodies, right, are going to freak out 208 00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:20,350 in terms of like, how do we know that what you're submitting as artifacts, 209 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:24,260 right, and artifacts could be anything from a student essay to a paper to a 210 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,950 project to exam scores, um, how do we know that these artifacts are aligned 211 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,360 with, um, a certain level of rigor that we expect from higher education? 212 00:10:33,950 --> 00:10:38,180 So I think that even when our heart is behind the changes that we need to make, 213 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,470 the current social and cultural context around higher education is making it, 214 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:47,120 um, not, I'm trying to avoid using the word difficult because I don't think 215 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:48,579 it's necessarily about difficulty. 216 00:10:48,829 --> 00:10:54,060 I think it's more about retaining and restoring public trust that we 217 00:10:54,060 --> 00:10:58,260 are rigorous, that we are holding people to high expectations, um, 218 00:10:58,319 --> 00:11:01,410 and then how, How can we do that in ways that's more meaningful? 219 00:11:01,810 --> 00:11:02,130 Right. 220 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:07,910 Cause we don't want the very mechanism that we designed to, um, make sure that 221 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,739 the checks and balances are in place to stop it from actually catching up with, 222 00:11:12,860 --> 00:11:18,540 you know, what, to actually make it make, uh, uh, uh, to, to deliver the actual 223 00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:20,760 Product that it's supposed to do, right? 224 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:21,499 Yep, exactly. 225 00:11:21,510 --> 00:11:26,090 Because it's, uh, it's sort of, in some ways, um, like you said, 226 00:11:26,110 --> 00:11:27,690 it hasn't caught up fast enough. 227 00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:33,839 And that, as a result, it's, um, and it happens in a lot of regular 228 00:11:34,189 --> 00:11:35,240 things that are regulated, right? 229 00:11:35,950 --> 00:11:37,210 Um, in, in the world. 230 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:41,410 Um, I think AI is actually a really big, you know, um, part of it. 231 00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:46,839 We're not able to, you know, legislate nearly fast enough, you know, comparing 232 00:11:46,839 --> 00:11:49,019 to how fast the technology is moving. 233 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:49,480 Yep. 234 00:11:49,969 --> 00:11:54,704 You know, like, and, and it's, it's, it's, it's It's, uh, it's, it's not only cat 235 00:11:54,704 --> 00:12:00,744 and mouse because it implies that you can eventually catch them, but it's not like 236 00:12:00,954 --> 00:12:08,115 a runaway train, you know, like, um, so, so I think it, it is hard and I, I do. 237 00:12:08,625 --> 00:12:13,675 You know, for me, I worry, I worry a little bit about sort of the, 238 00:12:14,775 --> 00:12:18,205 there is that public trust, but there's also just the, we have 239 00:12:18,205 --> 00:12:19,995 a lot of choices today, right? 240 00:12:19,995 --> 00:12:25,814 People can get a, some micro credentials and some, they could learn how to go, they 241 00:12:25,814 --> 00:12:30,444 can go, if they want to learn, so they can take an online course of some sort, 242 00:12:30,475 --> 00:12:32,055 and that might be all that they needed. 243 00:12:32,064 --> 00:12:35,295 They actually didn't really want all this four years worth. 244 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:42,610 Um, and, um, and, and with all of the choices, it really does imply that, you 245 00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:47,110 know, the landscape of learning could just be really, and the, the, the, the 246 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:51,999 landscape of learning with credentials is also another sort of weird part 247 00:12:52,009 --> 00:12:55,880 too, because then accreditation comes with the credentialing part of it. 248 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:02,140 And, and, and, and, and, and I will say that, I don't know, as a, as someone 249 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:06,760 who is maybe on the hiring side of, um, of, of, you know, where we hire, 250 00:13:06,850 --> 00:13:14,030 um, People at our company, um, you know, we look these days a lot less at 251 00:13:14,060 --> 00:13:15,390 their degree and where they came from. 252 00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:19,379 We look a lot more than the work that they're able to produce. 253 00:13:19,969 --> 00:13:23,290 Um, and the kind of quality of the work, the quality of the 254 00:13:23,290 --> 00:13:24,909 personality, the cultural fit. 255 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:32,740 And we are sometimes looking at that, you know, degree, not even as a requirement. 256 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:35,660 It's just, okay, it's interesting that you went there and did this. 257 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,910 Um, and that it explains your trajectory of how things worked out. 258 00:13:41,390 --> 00:13:42,250 Do you know what I mean? 259 00:13:42,350 --> 00:13:43,170 Absolutely. 260 00:13:43,170 --> 00:13:43,530 Yeah. 261 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:46,690 If you did that, you must know this. 262 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,390 Um, at least in my field, right? 263 00:13:49,390 --> 00:13:53,310 In, you know, hiring programmers or, you know, even a customer support person 264 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,935 or, You know, like I, I'm sure it's a little bit different if you're hiring, 265 00:13:56,994 --> 00:14:01,435 um, you know, like, uh, like you said, a nurse, you know, I, I probably want 266 00:14:01,435 --> 00:14:04,965 someone who actually were, you know, were vouched for that they know how 267 00:14:04,965 --> 00:14:09,055 to, you know, perform, you know, you know, these medical procedures safely. 268 00:14:10,054 --> 00:14:14,305 But, but for a lot of other, other fields, actually, you know, we're not looking at 269 00:14:14,355 --> 00:14:16,564 that as a, as a, as a requirement really. 270 00:14:17,069 --> 00:14:17,630 Right, right. 271 00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:21,880 It's less about, like, what badges you've earned in your, your scout sash 272 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,360 and more about, like, what, what are you able to do with that information? 273 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:26,870 Right. 274 00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:28,310 I really want to see you tie the knot. 275 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:32,569 I don't want to see the fact that you can tie knots, you know? 276 00:14:34,189 --> 00:14:35,069 Exactly. 277 00:14:35,170 --> 00:14:35,520 Yeah. 278 00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:38,080 And that's, that's what I mean about authentic assessment, right? 279 00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:43,450 And so working with faculty in my center, it's all about, you know, let's just 280 00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:45,059 stay with the example of tying knots. 281 00:14:45,149 --> 00:14:50,420 If tying knots is the thing that will make you a professional in a 282 00:14:50,420 --> 00:14:53,820 particular field, then why don't you just assess them on tying knots? 283 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,940 Don't just give them an exam about what a knot is. 284 00:14:56,314 --> 00:14:56,495 Right. 285 00:14:56,605 --> 00:14:58,095 And so that's where that movement. 286 00:14:58,305 --> 00:15:01,935 Um, I, that's where I'm always trying to push the movement of assessment, 287 00:15:01,935 --> 00:15:06,965 the culture of assessment into these authentic simulated spaces. 288 00:15:07,325 --> 00:15:08,445 Um, yeah. 289 00:15:08,445 --> 00:15:11,055 And then, and then back to that challenge of accreditation. 290 00:15:11,064 --> 00:15:11,895 How do we report? 291 00:15:12,094 --> 00:15:17,194 That, that, that competency or that ability, um, or that outcome, how do we 292 00:15:17,194 --> 00:15:20,454 communicate that and report that, um, within our institutions and to other 293 00:15:20,454 --> 00:15:23,714 institutions, like in the crediting body to show that, yeah, there's growth and 294 00:15:23,714 --> 00:15:25,124 we're doing what we say that we're doing. 295 00:15:25,364 --> 00:15:28,744 Um, we're just using these authentic forms of assessment so students can do 296 00:15:29,024 --> 00:15:30,935 rather than just credentialing them. 297 00:15:32,254 --> 00:15:32,464 All right. 298 00:15:32,484 --> 00:15:34,165 Let's, let's talk a little bit about AI. 299 00:15:34,165 --> 00:15:34,614 All right. 300 00:15:34,785 --> 00:15:35,015 Yeah. 301 00:15:35,015 --> 00:15:35,395 Yeah. 302 00:15:35,525 --> 00:15:37,475 Um, we already mentioned it a few times. 303 00:15:37,485 --> 00:15:41,025 I, I think that these days you can't have conversations without talking about 304 00:15:41,025 --> 00:15:43,185 it somehow or talking to it somehow. 305 00:15:43,315 --> 00:15:44,665 Yeah, right. 306 00:15:44,955 --> 00:15:47,845 Um, I think we should talk a little bit about it. 307 00:15:47,874 --> 00:15:52,435 I, I want to first, um, point out one thing. 308 00:15:53,005 --> 00:15:54,945 Hopefully we don't stay on this for too long. 309 00:15:55,485 --> 00:16:01,655 But, a lot of institutions, when they hear AI, they are still today. 310 00:16:01,655 --> 00:16:01,694 Yeah. 311 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:10,199 Um, you know, sort of plagiarism and, you know, academic honesty and cheating is 312 00:16:10,209 --> 00:16:16,355 the Sort of the first thing, you know, that many people are, you know, it's, 313 00:16:16,355 --> 00:16:20,565 it's, it's, if we mention AI, that's going to be one of the top three things 314 00:16:21,244 --> 00:16:23,415 in most people is the top one thing. 315 00:16:23,895 --> 00:16:27,915 Um, so what's going on there? 316 00:16:28,045 --> 00:16:28,895 Can you tell us? 317 00:16:29,604 --> 00:16:31,114 Um, yeah, I'll try my best. 318 00:16:31,304 --> 00:16:35,265 I can't, I don't know exactly what's, what's going on, but, uh, yeah. 319 00:16:35,365 --> 00:16:35,844 Um. 320 00:16:36,175 --> 00:16:39,925 You know, first thing, plagiarism is older than AI, right? 321 00:16:39,935 --> 00:16:45,275 Like we know that this has been a concern for many years, um, for everybody. 322 00:16:45,275 --> 00:16:49,284 And this goes back to our, our relationship with assessment 323 00:16:49,285 --> 00:16:52,175 that's more about accountability than it is about improvement. 324 00:16:52,394 --> 00:16:52,604 Right? 325 00:16:52,604 --> 00:16:54,055 And it's not... 326 00:16:54,305 --> 00:16:59,130 we haven't been so concerned with, let me assess where you are, low stakes, so 327 00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:02,660 I can see where you are, so I can help you improve wherever you are, right? 328 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:05,659 It's always been, let me assess where you are, because this assessment is 329 00:17:05,659 --> 00:17:08,869 going to have implications for your financial aid, for your scholarship, for 330 00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:10,409 your career, for your ability to say it. 331 00:17:10,409 --> 00:17:13,770 Like, we just create all these pressures that we inadvertently 332 00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:18,125 message to students, you better pass; regardless of how you pass, right? 333 00:17:18,125 --> 00:17:21,395 Like you want to keep your financial aid, you better pass this class, right? 334 00:17:21,395 --> 00:17:26,635 So we create all these external factors, um, that AI is not really one of them. 335 00:17:26,635 --> 00:17:30,504 I don't think AI actually motivates cheating and, and this, and I know this 336 00:17:30,534 --> 00:17:34,445 is my own opinion anecdotally, but it's also based on the research, um, very 337 00:17:34,445 --> 00:17:37,135 new emerging research into AI use or. 338 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:39,320 Even outsourcing assignments, right? 339 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,300 Like one of the most popular ways that students have plagiarized 340 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,180 before AI is to go onto websites where you can pay somebody else 341 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:46,660 to do the work for you, right? 342 00:17:46,660 --> 00:17:49,840 So it's not necessarily cheating as we've known it. 343 00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:51,570 It's a cottage industry of cheating. 344 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,900 Um, and looking at those for those who didn't know, I, I looked it up. 345 00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,020 It was between 800 to 1, 000. 346 00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:01,660 You get a guaranteed "A" yep. 347 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:04,280 Yeah, it's a very known thing. 348 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,695 Students know where they are, you know, if you just go, you know what, I just 349 00:18:09,695 --> 00:18:13,004 need to get an ECA on this, you can do that, and they will do everything. 350 00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:16,820 Including creating the presentation and giving you notes. 351 00:18:17,020 --> 00:18:19,500 If you should, you need to show up in person to make that 352 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:20,830 presentation at the final day. 353 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:22,600 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 354 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,100 So that's been available, right? 355 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,370 And that's been one of the most common forms of plagiarism. 356 00:18:27,889 --> 00:18:31,360 So I'm just sharing this to say I don't think AI created 357 00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:33,870 plagiarism or even exacerbated it. 358 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,430 What it's done is complicate it. 359 00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:38,360 Complicate our understanding of it because now there's an easier route. 360 00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:45,370 Um But, we also know that when students are, you know, going back to belonging 361 00:18:45,370 --> 00:18:49,520 and inclusive classrooms, um, we also know that intrinsic motivation is a very, 362 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,949 very powerful human thing, phenomenon. 363 00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:58,020 Um, if a student is engaged in something that they're doing, if they have that 364 00:18:58,030 --> 00:19:01,160 interest in something that they're doing, they are more likely to do it. 365 00:19:01,305 --> 00:19:02,695 Even when shortcuts are available. 366 00:19:02,915 --> 00:19:07,665 So let's go back to video games as an example, because of course, um, there have 367 00:19:07,665 --> 00:19:11,815 been things like GameShark, their AI has been part of the video game community and 368 00:19:11,824 --> 00:19:17,574 world for years, where it's very easy to program a bot to play the game for you. 369 00:19:17,794 --> 00:19:20,745 So you get the rewards from the game that you want, whether it's the digital 370 00:19:20,755 --> 00:19:24,855 currency of the game, or whether it's outfits for your avatar, or whether 371 00:19:24,855 --> 00:19:27,755 it's just, you know, to show up on a leaderboard and to brag to the world that 372 00:19:27,755 --> 00:19:30,404 you're the Madden player or NBA 2K player. 373 00:19:30,695 --> 00:19:34,125 You can actually program a bot to do the video game playing for you. 374 00:19:34,695 --> 00:19:41,385 Now, there hasn't been a lot of formal research into this use, but I, um, I 375 00:19:41,395 --> 00:19:44,095 have to believe that the video game industry would collapse if people weren't 376 00:19:44,104 --> 00:19:45,565 actually playing the games anymore. 377 00:19:45,814 --> 00:19:49,970 Right, so it, here comes this, this, Mode for you to cheat the thing that 378 00:19:49,970 --> 00:19:54,670 you love doing and people don't use it or at least abuse it too much, right? 379 00:19:54,670 --> 00:19:57,420 They might, even if it's incorporated, they're still playing the game. 380 00:19:57,420 --> 00:19:58,500 They're still involved in the community. 381 00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:00,810 They're still doing the thing that they're being asked to 382 00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:01,999 do by these game developers. 383 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,280 The involvement is still there. 384 00:20:03,289 --> 00:20:04,250 The engagement is still there. 385 00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:05,489 The stakes are a lot lower. 386 00:20:05,770 --> 00:20:07,289 They don't even have to win. 387 00:20:07,420 --> 00:20:09,620 They're just doing it for their own personal satisfaction. 388 00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:12,650 So they're more likely to actually do it and go into the flow, right? 389 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:14,250 And, and be engaged in that moment. 390 00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:18,225 And I think we can treat education the same way, right? 391 00:20:18,225 --> 00:20:20,955 So when I am working with, uh, with my class, you know, when you talk 392 00:20:20,965 --> 00:20:23,785 about project based learning, I break everything down into these separate parts. 393 00:20:24,225 --> 00:20:27,695 Um, I've I'm doing my best to lower the stakes, you know, because I 394 00:20:27,695 --> 00:20:28,904 want students to make mistakes. 395 00:20:28,905 --> 00:20:32,185 I want them to fail so they can learn from failure, not fail and then have that "F" 396 00:20:32,194 --> 00:20:33,555 follow them around the rest of their life. 397 00:20:33,934 --> 00:20:36,945 And when I do those things, um, at least in my own class 398 00:20:36,945 --> 00:20:40,655 surveys and my own, you know, um, research, my own action research. 399 00:20:40,975 --> 00:20:44,540 Students are less likely to take a shortcut regardless of what it is. 400 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,850 It's even if it's Chat GPT, I, I ran a study last semester. 401 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,929 Um, and because of the choices that they're making, because they say things 402 00:20:50,930 --> 00:20:54,570 like this topic's really important to me, or they might say things like the 403 00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:58,239 way the assignment is broken up, it's actually more work for me to use AI. 404 00:20:58,350 --> 00:21:01,410 Um, it's easier for me to just do the work because you've broken it out into 405 00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:05,590 chunks for me where I feel I have the capability to complete this assignment. 406 00:21:05,885 --> 00:21:07,655 Well, now we're not talking about plagiarism anymore. 407 00:21:07,655 --> 00:21:08,805 We're talking about motivation. 408 00:21:09,025 --> 00:21:11,645 And I I'd rather have the discussion go there where like, let's talk 409 00:21:11,655 --> 00:21:13,195 about how AI can help motivate. 410 00:21:13,495 --> 00:21:16,645 But that in mind and thinking about equity, imagine a student. 411 00:21:16,655 --> 00:21:17,754 So I teach writing classes. 412 00:21:17,815 --> 00:21:22,125 Imagine a student who uses English as a second or third language. 413 00:21:22,125 --> 00:21:23,844 It's not their, it's not their home language. 414 00:21:23,844 --> 00:21:26,474 It's not the language they use when they talk to their family members. 415 00:21:26,694 --> 00:21:29,794 Um, or even when they think to themselves, it's not the language that they use. 416 00:21:30,004 --> 00:21:34,034 And I asked the student to write an essay, just like I ask all my 417 00:21:34,034 --> 00:21:35,324 other students to write an essay. 418 00:21:36,045 --> 00:21:39,185 Right from the beginning, this student is not at the same 419 00:21:39,185 --> 00:21:40,375 starting point as everyone else. 420 00:21:40,385 --> 00:21:41,985 So now there's an issue of equity. 421 00:21:42,325 --> 00:21:46,754 Let's say that student uses CHAT GPT to draft an outline or even an introductory 422 00:21:46,754 --> 00:21:50,614 paragraph with the goal of, I'm going to try my best to make the rest of my writing 423 00:21:50,614 --> 00:21:52,185 look like that introductory paragraph. 424 00:21:53,009 --> 00:21:56,740 I can look at that as plagiarism, or I can look at that as leveling the playing 425 00:21:56,740 --> 00:22:00,290 field, right, that now that student has an equal starting point as everybody else. 426 00:22:00,630 --> 00:22:05,790 And so for me, it's more about motivation and equity because plagiarism is a much 427 00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:11,669 longer, um, An issue that had, that we've had to face for many more years. 428 00:22:11,949 --> 00:22:16,469 Um, and I think it has more to do with how engaged and involved students 429 00:22:16,479 --> 00:22:18,399 are, than what tools are available. 430 00:22:19,199 --> 00:22:24,599 I think it really goes into that just in time and just in case, um, area too. 431 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,269 Like for me, you know, like when you, when you go in and play Legend 432 00:22:30,289 --> 00:22:33,030 of Zelda, if someone were to say. 433 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:34,970 Hey, let me play it for you. 434 00:22:35,659 --> 00:22:36,899 You'd be like, no way. 435 00:22:37,139 --> 00:22:37,610 Exactly. 436 00:22:37,870 --> 00:22:39,689 I wanna get to play this. 437 00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:40,730 That's the whole point. 438 00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:46,800 But I, to me, I think that there is this, um, I I've been using 439 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,769 this other, I'm going to throw, I'm going to throw this analogy to you 440 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:51,090 and see what, what you think of it. 441 00:22:51,619 --> 00:22:55,280 Um, cause I can, I think people go, well, So, you know, Legends of 442 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,350 Zelda is fun, so is entertainment. 443 00:22:57,380 --> 00:23:00,230 How can you compare that to, you know, the textbook? 444 00:23:00,230 --> 00:23:01,010 Okay, fine, whatever. 445 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:05,770 I'm going to give you a slightly different analogy here, because video game is 446 00:23:05,970 --> 00:23:09,790 so fun that they're like, you know, oh sure, I can binge watch, you know, 447 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,530 Netflix for like 11 hours straight. 448 00:23:12,199 --> 00:23:14,490 Is there a high production value, et cetera, et cetera. 449 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:20,100 All right, so let's take a musician or an athlete. 450 00:23:20,430 --> 00:23:25,989 Let's take an athlete that has to, train to, um, run a marathon, um, 451 00:23:27,149 --> 00:23:31,830 they don't now, by the way, they do cheat in different ways, you 452 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:35,379 know, performance and enhancing drugs, you know, things like that. 453 00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:42,310 But if you were to tell, if they were to be told, let's say you are 454 00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:46,340 someone who wants to run a marathon, you are not an experienced runner. 455 00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:50,340 You went online, bought a course, or I read a book they gave you. 456 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,000 I mean, this, by the way, really does exist. 457 00:23:52,345 --> 00:23:55,215 They give you these courses that basically said you have, you know, 458 00:23:55,275 --> 00:23:59,955 four months or six months, you know, in every single week, they tell you how 459 00:23:59,965 --> 00:24:05,125 many miles you should run and for how long and how fast so that they, they 460 00:24:05,175 --> 00:24:09,804 peak you all the way to like the week before, you know, you run the marathon, 461 00:24:10,024 --> 00:24:15,054 you'll be able to log about, you know, you can actually run 20 ish miles. 462 00:24:15,410 --> 00:24:18,040 That week, and then the adrenaline will push you through 463 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,070 to the 26th and finish, right? 464 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:21,460 So people just want to finish, right? 465 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,039 And I'm not talking about ultra competitor here. 466 00:24:25,070 --> 00:24:28,040 Just someone who said, Hey, it's always been my bucket list. 467 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:28,070 And 468 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,130 You would, you can talk to the person, they go to week three, they're supposed 469 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:40,999 to, I don't know, run, you know, like, log eight miles that week, maybe four 470 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,429 times two miles a piece, all right? 471 00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:50,639 You could not pay that person to have someone else run for them. 472 00:24:51,449 --> 00:24:51,949 Exactly. 473 00:24:52,049 --> 00:24:54,550 By the way, these are hard, right? 474 00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:58,419 By the time you get to the thirteenth week, they might be running 18 475 00:24:58,419 --> 00:25:02,870 miles that week, and they're running, you know, six miles apart. 476 00:25:03,470 --> 00:25:07,960 It's taking them a lot of time, energy, and it's not the, you know, 477 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,180 it's not like Legend of Zelda. 478 00:25:11,290 --> 00:25:15,880 It's like they are sweating, their head is telling them to stop, please stop, you 479 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:23,989 have cramps, your joints not working, you are hungry, you know, all of that, right? 480 00:25:24,059 --> 00:25:28,599 So you're fighting extreme physical and mental discomfort. 481 00:25:29,555 --> 00:25:34,925 Um, and challenge to push yourself to be able to do it again. 482 00:25:35,105 --> 00:25:38,835 You couldn't pay this person to not do that a hundred percent. 483 00:25:39,505 --> 00:25:43,374 They know that if they don't do it, they can't run that marathon. 484 00:25:44,054 --> 00:25:44,455 Right. 485 00:25:44,735 --> 00:25:46,495 And that's what the thing they want the most. 486 00:25:46,635 --> 00:25:51,825 So there is, to me, this sort of, by the way, these are not people that, that's 487 00:25:52,695 --> 00:25:58,475 new, like they just somehow had this trust that this curriculum works for them. 488 00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:00,280 Don't they? 489 00:26:00,330 --> 00:26:00,630 Right? 490 00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:00,850 Yeah. 491 00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:01,260 Yeah. 492 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:05,700 They didn't, uh, students, I come to many classes, not your class, 493 00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:08,119 because you are very good at getting them to understand that. 494 00:26:08,510 --> 00:26:13,590 But if without that, there is this huge misalignment, this huge gap that sets, 495 00:26:14,419 --> 00:26:16,989 look, I don't know why I'm doing this. 496 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:20,049 So why, what does it matter if I had someone else do it? 497 00:26:20,959 --> 00:26:25,290 Because there is this huge misalignment on this doesn't matter to me. 498 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:26,220 Right? 499 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,430 The stuff that actually does matter to you. 500 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,815 Like if you are that nurse and you're like, Oh no, I, I really need to 501 00:26:31,815 --> 00:26:37,415 learn how to perform this, this, this task because if I don't, I won't 502 00:26:37,415 --> 00:26:40,135 know what to do when the patient comes in and has this condition. 503 00:26:40,555 --> 00:26:41,395 So I need to do it. 504 00:26:41,395 --> 00:26:43,029 I can't have someone else help me do it. 505 00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:47,270 Like maybe I can, so to speak, cheat by saying, well, you thought I need 506 00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:51,220 to have it done, like pat down now, but I don't, yeah, I need a little 507 00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:53,230 cheat sheet, so to speak, fine. 508 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:53,889 Right? 509 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,419 But actually I want to do it. 510 00:26:55,429 --> 00:26:56,389 I want to learn it. 511 00:26:56,969 --> 00:27:00,629 Um, so I think that's that trust and that misalignment that is 512 00:27:00,629 --> 00:27:03,199 really, like powering a lot of this. 513 00:27:03,229 --> 00:27:07,919 And the gap gets wedged and wedged wider and wider and wider to the 514 00:27:07,919 --> 00:27:10,584 point where a student just kind of going, yeah, I can just do it. 515 00:27:10,645 --> 00:27:12,545 Hey, like, forget the AI part. 516 00:27:12,615 --> 00:27:16,965 I can pay 800 and get a guaranteed a any school. 517 00:27:17,285 --> 00:27:17,435 Yeah. 518 00:27:17,435 --> 00:27:19,065 I just do that. 519 00:27:19,235 --> 00:27:19,535 Exactly. 520 00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:21,935 I mean, you're describing motivation theory perfectly, right? 521 00:27:21,935 --> 00:27:24,374 It's all about goal setting and those goals have to be 522 00:27:24,695 --> 00:27:26,425 distal and proximal, right? 523 00:27:26,425 --> 00:27:29,514 So the distal goal of, I want to be able to run a marathon 524 00:27:29,515 --> 00:27:30,675 or just complete a marathon. 525 00:27:31,015 --> 00:27:32,565 Um, that's a distal goal. 526 00:27:32,595 --> 00:27:34,645 I know that I can't do that tomorrow. 527 00:27:34,765 --> 00:27:36,775 I can't even do that in a year necessarily. 528 00:27:36,985 --> 00:27:38,144 I need lots of training. 529 00:27:38,575 --> 00:27:41,464 What's going to keep me motivated and keep me. 530 00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:45,240 Um, keep me on track, you know, through the curriculum are those 531 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,100 proximal goals, goals that are close enough to be achievable. 532 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:52,790 And when I achieve them, I can publicly, um, celebrate them and I can, and 533 00:27:52,790 --> 00:27:55,429 that motivates me and encourages me to move on to the next goal. 534 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,980 Those goals have to always be in range, right? 535 00:27:57,980 --> 00:28:00,899 So I think about Vygotsky's zone of proximal development, right? 536 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:05,430 We need to constantly set goals that are just outside of our threshold, but they 537 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:07,090 look like they're just in arm's reach. 538 00:28:07,715 --> 00:28:08,895 I'm almost there, right? 539 00:28:08,895 --> 00:28:12,054 I can, I can do four miles this week, right? 540 00:28:12,054 --> 00:28:13,945 I, um, I, I've done two. 541 00:28:13,945 --> 00:28:15,745 I just need two more and I'm right there. 542 00:28:15,924 --> 00:28:18,114 And then before I know it is 13 miles, right? 543 00:28:18,114 --> 00:28:21,274 Because that goal became within my threshold, fell within my threshold. 544 00:28:21,584 --> 00:28:25,100 Um, And that's how we need to set up a curriculum, right? 545 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:30,350 And so, for example, I have, I'm a large advocate and we're doing this in much 546 00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:34,339 larger areas now here at Quinnipiac, you know, we, we tend to, the traditional 547 00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:39,680 story is we cap a course, um, with its climax, uh, to use this, a story metaphor 548 00:28:39,899 --> 00:28:42,279 with the final exam, which is high stress. 549 00:28:42,399 --> 00:28:44,629 High stakes and largely disconnected from us. 550 00:28:44,629 --> 00:28:46,320 And we just do a multiple choice test. 551 00:28:46,379 --> 00:28:47,800 Most many students do, right? 552 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,270 Or they do their 20 page research paper. 553 00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:54,280 Um, even if they're invested in it, you know, it might just be by the end of 20 554 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,180 pages of writing this, I'm done and I never want to see this topic again, right? 555 00:28:57,180 --> 00:29:00,189 It's not, we're not at a good place when we reach final exam week. 556 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,800 We bring puppies on the campus to help destress people because of how much 557 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,440 we stress them out for final exam. 558 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,740 So what we're doing now is we're calling it a showcase week, right? 559 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:14,695 So by By the time the final exam week comes, at least for the College of Arts 560 00:29:14,695 --> 00:29:18,665 and Science, which is going to run this huge showcase this year, um, Instead 561 00:29:18,665 --> 00:29:25,625 of asking students to take a test or to submit this major, onerous product, um, 562 00:29:25,675 --> 00:29:28,475 we're going to hold space where they can engage with authentic audiences. 563 00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:31,015 You know, we're going to invite employers, we're going to invite community members, 564 00:29:31,285 --> 00:29:35,770 and students are going to present to them, here's what I did this semester. 565 00:29:35,890 --> 00:29:37,260 Here's this work that I'm really proud of. 566 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,260 It is literally and emphatically a showcase. 567 00:29:40,550 --> 00:29:42,720 Let's celebrate what you've accomplished. 568 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,740 That needs to work in throughout the semester as well. 569 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,920 I'm constantly trying to work in through my syllabus, scheduled 570 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,240 moments of public success. 571 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,080 I want to set it up where the student cannot fail, no matter what. 572 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,640 They will succeed these, like, and so they're not truly assessments. 573 00:29:57,100 --> 00:30:01,390 They're more of just a public showcase to prove to yourself that you can do it. 574 00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:02,900 You've accomplished this proximal goal. 575 00:30:03,090 --> 00:30:04,310 And let's move on to the next one. 576 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,370 Without that, we don't know what story we're telling, right? 577 00:30:07,370 --> 00:30:10,100 Like, if I'm in a course and I don't see that relevance to that 578 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:13,130 course, I'm not going to do what the marathon runner does, right? 579 00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:17,130 Because I don't see the goals, and I don't see myself chasing those goals. 580 00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:21,340 I think that's, that's, that's really a great point. 581 00:30:22,345 --> 00:30:28,575 That, um, that it's, it's a great way to, to see a solution, like what you were 582 00:30:28,575 --> 00:30:30,505 saying, this showcase at the end, right? 583 00:30:30,565 --> 00:30:35,805 It's, it's such a meaningful solution that anyone can implement. 584 00:30:36,235 --> 00:30:36,535 It is. 585 00:30:37,355 --> 00:30:37,535 Yeah. 586 00:30:37,535 --> 00:30:39,685 It's just a change of the story that we tell about learning. 587 00:30:39,695 --> 00:30:43,435 Like, does it have to end with something as dreadful as a final exam? 588 00:30:44,045 --> 00:30:46,195 I, I, I like the idea. 589 00:30:46,575 --> 00:30:51,475 Oh, I, I like how you describe that when you are. 590 00:30:52,115 --> 00:30:56,395 At the end of this project, if you are supposed to, at the end, I go, I 591 00:30:56,395 --> 00:31:01,045 would never do this again, we've like literally just failed them, right? 592 00:31:01,515 --> 00:31:02,045 Exactly. 593 00:31:03,515 --> 00:31:07,969 Like that's different from like the musician that goes, by the time I've. 594 00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:12,160 Figured out how I can play this music, play this song. 595 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,060 I want to keep doing it. 596 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,710 This is when I get to perform. 597 00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:15,580 Exactly. 598 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,380 And I go, Oh, thank God I can like move on. 599 00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:21,820 Right. 600 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:22,780 Exactly. 601 00:31:22,780 --> 00:31:23,020 Yeah. 602 00:31:23,020 --> 00:31:28,240 You know, and that's, um, my, my big pie in the sky dream is that courses 603 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:31,390 will embrace, um, edutainment, right? 604 00:31:31,390 --> 00:31:33,490 Like I don't, I don't think there should be a divide. 605 00:31:33,570 --> 00:31:36,200 And I know a lot of people will disagree with it, and that's, that's fine. 606 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,080 I, um, and I'm, I'm always happy to have that conversation, but I do think 607 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,510 education should be entertaining. 608 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:44,890 I think entertainment is a fundamental human capacity. 609 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,760 Um, and maybe not even human. 610 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,860 I think all species in some way, shape, or form are driven by the 611 00:31:50,860 --> 00:31:55,250 pleasure and joy of feeling good about being in the moment and entertainment 612 00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:56,620 should be an instructional strategy. 613 00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:58,840 It, we shouldn't do what we can to. 614 00:31:58,905 --> 00:31:59,865 Leave it at the door. 615 00:32:00,585 --> 00:32:00,875 Right. 616 00:32:00,895 --> 00:32:03,675 Like, like you come to school, no joy for you. 617 00:32:04,935 --> 00:32:06,605 Joy is not in the word school. 618 00:32:06,695 --> 00:32:08,135 So, right. 619 00:32:08,135 --> 00:32:09,845 Or even, even the word discipline, right? 620 00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:12,045 Like, I mean, what, what discipline are you studying? 621 00:32:12,055 --> 00:32:16,085 I mean, that word itself, like discipline and punishment to 622 00:32:16,445 --> 00:32:17,635 echo Foucault (Michel Foucault.) 623 00:32:17,895 --> 00:32:20,405 Yeah, no, that's a, that's a, that's a good point. 624 00:32:20,455 --> 00:32:24,415 Um, I, I agree with you. 625 00:32:24,585 --> 00:32:30,345 I think that sort of this, you know, there, there isn't, I think it's a, 626 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,230 It's a silly correlation that, you know, in order for you to succeed, 627 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,549 it's, it, you're going to put in some hard work as in unenjoyable work. 628 00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:44,350 I don't think, I don't think that should always be true. 629 00:32:44,390 --> 00:32:48,360 You know, sometimes we do them, like I was saying about the, the, you 630 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,930 know, the marathon runner you sustain through, you know, sort of like. 631 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,840 Serious challenges. 632 00:32:54,190 --> 00:33:02,900 Um, but it doesn't, you know, I actually think that, um, uh, for, for many people 633 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:08,310 that talk about that, there is joy to be have in, in, in those instances. 634 00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:08,560 Right. 635 00:33:09,030 --> 00:33:12,700 Um, and people talk about their runner's high, but I think there is at least at 636 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:16,840 the very minimum, that sense of, you know, like, yes, I'm going to go through this. 637 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:21,030 And at the end, it's going to have this, you know, like, the feeling 638 00:33:21,030 --> 00:33:25,280 is going to be great when I finish, like, that six miles, you know, today. 639 00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:26,400 Absolutely. 640 00:33:26,510 --> 00:33:27,730 Desirable difficulty. 641 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:34,780 Yeah, and I, I just think that, you know, in education, um, a friend of 642 00:33:34,780 --> 00:33:40,250 mine, uh, professor, um, uh, Jordy Getman from Bronx Community College. 643 00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:41,330 Do you know him, by the way? 644 00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:42,010 No, no. 645 00:33:42,140 --> 00:33:43,420 I think you'll really get along with him. 646 00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:48,650 Um, she We always talk about like, this is some, sometimes it's, 647 00:33:49,090 --> 00:33:50,680 you know, it's academic laziness. 648 00:33:51,090 --> 00:33:54,270 It's like, we, we thought like we designed this. 649 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,090 We know it's going to work in our head. 650 00:33:57,490 --> 00:34:02,040 You know, we just are too lazy to even explain to them why this is the case. 651 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,130 And we don't need to convince you. 652 00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:09,220 You have to do this for me as if you are like my, Employees, I pay, 653 00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:11,200 except that it's completely not true. 654 00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:12,360 You have to circle it out. 655 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,510 So, whatever, you know, that, that power dynamic of grade and this high 656 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:21,060 stake thing that you talked about, this grade, this, you know, this, 657 00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,300 like, if you don't do this, you know, you're not going to get a grade. 658 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:25,140 If you don't get a grade, you're not going to get a certificate. 659 00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:28,140 Then your whole life is going to get ruined, right? 660 00:34:28,140 --> 00:34:29,120 And you're not going to get a job. 661 00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:30,910 You're not going to be qualified to do this. 662 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:38,435 And, and, and, and this, You know, creates a lot of, uh, some animosity almost, you 663 00:34:38,435 --> 00:34:43,075 know, between, between, you know, the person who sets out to want to learn. 664 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:46,295 That's why they even bothered applying to a school and getting in. 665 00:34:46,295 --> 00:34:47,985 And, you know, it's a lot of effort to get there. 666 00:34:48,375 --> 00:34:53,425 Um, and then the person who actually took a job, took a profession, make the career. 667 00:34:53,455 --> 00:34:56,205 Many, many faculty members, you know, are. 668 00:34:57,810 --> 00:35:01,210 You know, it's, uh, it's, it's something that hopefully that they enjoy, you know, 669 00:35:01,210 --> 00:35:05,070 teaching, and then there's a, there's some version of a passion in their head 670 00:35:05,070 --> 00:35:10,640 at some point, but there is a little gap that, that is just stopping us 671 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,120 from making that big, that connection. 672 00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:17,860 And I think for folks like you who can make that connection easily 673 00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:20,270 with the students, because you have a lot of empathy for them. 674 00:35:20,865 --> 00:35:26,505 Because you can easily put yourself back into that mode of Legend of Zelda or this. 675 00:35:26,745 --> 00:35:30,365 And you have me with Legend of Zelda in your own head. 676 00:35:31,445 --> 00:35:32,525 Can't wait, right? 677 00:35:32,595 --> 00:35:35,305 Because if you can do that, then yeah, as soon as they're gonna stay. 678 00:35:35,755 --> 00:35:36,025 Yep. 679 00:35:37,745 --> 00:35:41,385 I mean, I think, I think about course design as an epic story. 680 00:35:41,545 --> 00:35:44,735 Right, like, it's the hero's journey, um, in some way, like, at the start 681 00:35:44,735 --> 00:35:48,325 of every semester, every student is a hero going on their epic quest, 682 00:35:48,335 --> 00:35:49,735 and I just want them to realize that. 683 00:35:50,005 --> 00:35:52,305 And what is that elixir, right, that they're going to bring 684 00:35:52,315 --> 00:35:53,555 back to that ordinary world? 685 00:35:53,555 --> 00:35:55,975 What is the thing that they are learning that they're going to bring 686 00:35:55,975 --> 00:35:59,375 back to their world and improve their world because of becoming this hero? 687 00:36:01,345 --> 00:36:02,435 Well, that's fantastic. 688 00:36:02,485 --> 00:36:06,905 Um, JT, I think I can talk to you for a really long time, and maybe we should. 689 00:36:07,305 --> 00:36:09,405 Um, um, talk more. 690 00:36:09,435 --> 00:36:12,045 Um, I'm always happy to talk to you. 691 00:36:12,395 --> 00:36:12,595 Yeah. 692 00:36:12,595 --> 00:36:12,995 Thank you. 693 00:36:13,335 --> 00:36:15,475 But this is, this is fantastic. 694 00:36:15,515 --> 00:36:19,465 I really, really appreciate you, you know, bringing it to, 695 00:36:19,495 --> 00:36:21,445 to this, uh, to this podcast. 696 00:36:21,495 --> 00:36:25,325 Uh, I, I love, um, I love the way you think. 697 00:36:25,945 --> 00:36:28,775 Um, I feel like we are really just scratching the surface and 698 00:36:28,785 --> 00:36:30,295 there's so much that you've done. 699 00:36:30,295 --> 00:36:36,430 I, By the way, did do some, you know, research, usually don't even do a lot 700 00:36:36,430 --> 00:36:40,670 of research, but, um, I did, you know, I saw, I actually started reading some 701 00:36:40,670 --> 00:36:45,540 of your, the stuff that you, you, you did and your, your books that you did, 702 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:52,130 you wrote it, co wrote a book with, um, uh, um, another Digication Scholar. 703 00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:52,420 Yeah. 704 00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:52,630 Yeah. 705 00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:53,190 That's right. 706 00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:53,690 Yeah. 707 00:36:53,690 --> 00:36:54,590 Jill Flanders Crosby. 708 00:36:54,590 --> 00:36:55,080 Yeah. 709 00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:58,900 From University of Alaska, um, on dance. 710 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,294 Um, yeah. 711 00:37:01,195 --> 00:37:09,655 And, uh, and your own novel, um, uh, um, about, um, Cuba, is that correct? 712 00:37:09,835 --> 00:37:12,895 Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, it's about, it's about a family, um, I mean, 713 00:37:12,895 --> 00:37:14,575 it's, it's autofiction, right? 714 00:37:14,575 --> 00:37:19,345 So, like, it's based on elements of my life, um, but just, like, a family 715 00:37:19,345 --> 00:37:24,045 trying to find their identity, um, after they are forced to give up 716 00:37:24,165 --> 00:37:25,915 the identity that they had in Cuba. 717 00:37:26,425 --> 00:37:28,575 So it's a migration story about this being in Florida. 718 00:37:28,875 --> 00:37:31,615 You've got, you've done so much and then you have articles 719 00:37:31,625 --> 00:37:32,945 about artificial intelligence. 720 00:37:33,645 --> 00:37:38,345 Um, so I, I'm going to try to, um, make sure some of these things get put 721 00:37:38,405 --> 00:37:42,335 into the show notes so people can go look for, look for, look for your work. 722 00:37:42,685 --> 00:37:46,835 But we really need to, um, You know, get you back on so that we can, uh, 723 00:37:47,105 --> 00:37:51,755 we can, we can, we can discuss more of these topics, especially as, as, 724 00:37:51,755 --> 00:37:56,635 um, you know, the, the, how quickly AI is going to continue to change, 725 00:37:56,865 --> 00:37:59,335 um, uh, the world and high education. 726 00:37:59,355 --> 00:38:01,995 And I think there'll be, there'll be a lot to be discussed here. 727 00:38:02,175 --> 00:38:02,815 Absolutely. 728 00:38:02,815 --> 00:38:03,145 Yeah. 729 00:38:03,185 --> 00:38:03,545 Thank you. 730 00:38:03,545 --> 00:38:07,265 It's, it's at least job security because AI is going to change so much that 731 00:38:07,285 --> 00:38:09,335 we need scholars to keep studying it. 732 00:38:09,995 --> 00:38:10,275 Right. 733 00:38:10,285 --> 00:38:10,825 That's right. 734 00:38:11,075 --> 00:38:11,395 Okay. 735 00:38:11,395 --> 00:38:11,755 All right. 736 00:38:11,795 --> 00:38:13,420 Well, Thank you, JT. 737 00:38:13,470 --> 00:38:18,270 Um, I appreciate everything again, and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you soon. 738 00:38:18,580 --> 00:38:18,830 Okay. 739 00:38:18,830 --> 00:38:19,220 Thank you. 740 00:38:19,540 --> 00:38:19,780 Okay. 741 00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:20,310 Take care. 742 00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:20,840 You too. 743 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,910 Coming up next, we'll be chatting with Andre Perez, a student 744 00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:27,900 at the University of LaVerne. 745 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:29,480 Here's a quick preview. 746 00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:31,930 Be happy to share, share it too. 747 00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:35,250 Just be able to share it and just share with anyone. 748 00:38:35,740 --> 00:38:38,010 Um, and yeah, just focus on having fun. 749 00:38:38,010 --> 00:38:39,130 That's the most important part. 750 00:38:39,815 --> 00:38:40,885 And then, also, the grade helps, too. 751 00:38:41,215 --> 00:38:43,085 Be serious, but also have fun with it. 752 00:38:43,085 --> 00:38:45,265 It's that perfect balance you just gotta find. 753 00:38:45,635 --> 00:38:48,245 But don't try and just make it all academic. 754 00:38:48,615 --> 00:38:52,014 Try and put your own spin on it, cause that's what a portfolio is all about.