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Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

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I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

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In this episode, you will hear part
two of my conversation with Laura

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DeSisto, Program Director and Senior
Lecturer for the Master of Liberal Arts

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program at Johns Hopkins University.

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More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

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Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

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Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

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YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

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One part you said that really, um,
uh, You know, really rings true in my,

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also just my experience and, you know,
seeing people around, around me and

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colleagues and people I've come across.

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People I admire, right, is, is that,
um, all the, all the leaders, um, there

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isn't one, one leader who, who hasn't,
who hasn't, whether they got their skills

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from a liberal arts education, who doesn't
have all the skills that you, you talked

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about, um, and, and there isn't really an
easy direct path to learn those skills.

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Right.

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There just isn't.

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Right.

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Right.

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Um, you know, there actually
isn't a You know, um, you can't

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major in being a CEO, um, right?

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Yeah.

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You can't major in being
the United States president.

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Um, the, these majors don't exist and, and
it really requires a person to, to, um.

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You know, you can either professionally
try to get that experience

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through something like the MLA
program, or you have to seek it

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elsewhere, but you have to get it.

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You don't, it doesn't come for free.

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You don't get to get a, you
know, education or an experience

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in a professional way.

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You will get all that
experience, no doubt, but you

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just won't get the other part.

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And no, at the same time, getting this
MLA degree doesn't give you the ability to

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operate on someone's open heart surgery.

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Right.

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You know, so look, you know, you, you,
you, you kind of need both, you know,

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yeah, so, so, but if you are, I actually
do think that there's something that,

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cause my, I have three Children who
are, um, uh, sort of high school age

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and they're, you know, they're thinking
about careers and, and things like that a

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little bit and, and, um, it's interesting
because they all have different,

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different, different ways of thinking
about it, but definitely, um, uh, some.

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Some sort of, you know, like, I
don't know what I want to do, right?

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And, and I actually think that,
um, That's the person probably

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would have been a perfect fit
for like a liberal arts program.

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Because it allows you to
look at the world intensely.

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Exactly.

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For a while.

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Yeah.

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Let you understand, like you said,
understand what it means to be human.

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That you make some, get some ideas on.

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It's almost like you get to date all
the ideas that exist in the world that

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could matter so that you can pick out
something that is meaningful for you.

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Right.

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Like you'll build your
value system, you know?

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And then work your way into
something that will potentially

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click for you and that's fine, right?

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There's no harm in that, right?

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I agree completely.

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You know, it's really interesting.

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My father was a chemical engineer,
but he was one of the people who was

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most supportive of the fact that I
entered into college already having

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declared philosophy as my major, right?

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And so, and he would read my
papers because I'd ask him to.

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I don't know how much of the content would
connect, but, you know, there was that.

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And then after he retired,
he started teaching.

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Math, and he and I, I would have the
best conversations about teaching

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and learning that were grounded in
philosophy, even if he didn't have all

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those texts in his background, right?

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You know, those kinds of things.

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And that's what I mean where I
really want to make sure it's clear

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that sure, of course, because of my
particular training and because of

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the program that I'm associated with,
it looks a particular way and has the

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trappings of a liberal arts education.

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I don't think of liberal
education more broadly.

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With a gatekeeper mentality, right?

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I think that there are points
of access to this kind of way of

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exploring and understanding and
engaging with texts and ideas that

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exist in a number of different spaces.

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Um, what's nice, going back to your point,
is that we happen to provide it in a way

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where we're giving you some guidance.

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We've assembled a collection of
courses that we think come together.

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In a way that benefits people.

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If other people want to get at it
a different way, that's fine too.

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It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't have to
be, you know, the only pathway through.

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It is funny though, in terms of what
you're talking about, I'm trying not

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to be the philosophy nerd that I am,
but you know, you're, you're touching

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upon these ideas about the, you know,
what does it take to be a good leader?

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I mean, these are the kinds of
questions, this goes back to

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this theme of eternal questions.

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These are ones that we've been
asking for thousands of years, right?

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Um, LATO's Republic is an entire dialogue
about who should lead and what is the

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proper education for those who lead.

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And, you know, spoiler alert, it gets
very messy and complicated along the way.

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I won't give everything away.

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I'll let people Dive into
that text if they choose.

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Um, but it's, it wasn't a clear cut answer
in terms of how you go about doing that.

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And then even, you know, we move a
little bit further, not that much, but

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to Aristotle and, um, his discussion
about someone who is the best prepared

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to live a life of human flourishing.

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And one of the key factors that he
talks about is practical wisdom.

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Practical wisdom is not necessarily
something that is easily.

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taught, but it is something that
we work toward and that that it

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doesn't just, you can't just snap
your fingers and suddenly have it.

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And so again, and this is actually
why I really like, I have in my,

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for a significant portion of my
career taught in the undergraduate

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environment, but I do really enjoy
working in this graduate space as well.

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I love working with
undergraduate students.

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Absolutely.

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No question.

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Um, I've so many positive
associations with that.

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But there's something really
interesting about working with

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individuals at this graduate level.

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You know, they've already received
their undergraduate degree.

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Like I said, in many ways, they have,
they're, they're moving on in their lives.

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They have careers, they have
other commitments, they have

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all those other sorts of things.

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And yet, they're coming back to do this
kind of concentrated study, bringing all

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of that wealth of experience with them
into the conversations, right, bringing

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all of those different, not just their
schooling experience, but also, in many

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cases, their professional encounters,
their Opportunities that they've had

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to engage with the world around them,
whether that means they're located across

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the globe, or they've traveled more,
or all those different sorts of things.

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And then they're bringing that in
to do this kind of study, right?

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It's cliche, but in liberal
arts education, the phrase

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lifelong learner often is heard.

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It actually can mean something very rich
and true where these individuals are

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willing to make themselves vulnerable.

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To get outside of their comfort
zone and learn things that they've

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never encountered before and I
think that feeds into those other

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kinds of positive qualities that
you were alluding to before, right?

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I mean, I know there are
different concepts of leadership.

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But I think a really strong one
is somebody who is willing to

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do all of those things, right?

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Right.

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Hear from others, learn from
others, and so on and so forth.

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I, I also must say that there is
a, um, one more piece that, um,

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to me, having the skills to lead.

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Um, you know, or to also combine
with a lot of the understanding our

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environments in the world in which
we live and how we can improve it,

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sustain it, and do all of that.

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And I, I do think that there is a,
um, um, you know, like you mentioned

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before, so many students might have
had an MBA before or after, right.

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And they may go on, become, you know,
successful capitalists and whatnot.

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Um, but one of the things that I.

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I, I hope that what something like this
get them to, to include in their way of

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operation, the way of day to day, you
know, decision making and, and, and just

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what, what, what, what, what's meaningful
for them is to not only do it for the.

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You know, not in the expense of other
people, it's how do you make the world

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a better place, make it a more habitable
place, happier place, in general.

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I mean, it's tilted in that
direction, even if it's not

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fully tilted in that direction.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And so one of the core classes that I
teach is called, um, Ways of Knowing, and

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it's the historical and epistemological
foundations of liberal arts education.

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I know that's a very wordy title.

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In sum, basically what we do in that class
is we study the history of what the term

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liberal arts has meant and what liberal
arts education has looked like and how it

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has shifted and changed over millennia.

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And, um, I teach it in the fall.

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And so this past fall, so the semester
was coming to a close in December.

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And my students in the final unit of
the course are working on research

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projects related to contemporary
challenges that are, that we face

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in terms of liberal arts education.

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They choose these different categories,
um, Liberal Education for Democracy, uh,

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Working Across Disciplinary Boundaries,
Liberal Education Across the Globe,

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and, uh, Diversity and Inclusion.

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Or actually, I should say Inclusive
Excellence is that category.

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And I had a few students, one of them
in particular that was coming to mind.

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Uh, she is very, very successful on the
West Coast in the technology, the computer

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science world, that, that whole realm.

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And she decided to do
the Crossing Disciplinary

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Boundaries topic for her study.

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And she was looking at computer
scientists in particular and how she was

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trying to make a case for how and why.

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True study of ethics, not, you know,
the, the kind of, uh, surface level,

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like case study, morality kind of
class that sometimes you get exposed

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to in a business school or something
like that, but a genuine study of

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questions related to how should we live?

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What does it mean to live a good life?

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And she was trying to make a case
as to why that was really important.

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And just as she was getting to
the final weeks of working on her

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project, All the news started really
popping up about CHAT GPT, right?

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And it launched this whole discussion
in my class about just because you

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can doesn't mean that you should.

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And, or what are the implications, even
if you can create something like this?

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Are you thinking through the
moral and ethical implications

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of the thing that you've created?

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Not to bash it, right?

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Not to say that it's a bad creat
you know, that we actually need to

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acknowledge that there are many ways
in which artificial intelligence is

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already built into the infrastructure
of our lives in ways that are sometimes

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even completely invisible to us.

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But thinking about what would it
mean for every time we're innovating,

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every time we're, there are disruptors
to what we think of as the norm.

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Those individuals are also engaging
in dialogue and conversations and

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questions with one another about this
idea of, again, to put it kind of in

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a trite terms, just because we can
doesn't mean that we should, right?

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And that can be applied to
conversations about the atomic bomb.

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It can be applied to any number
of other things that we've

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encountered in our society.

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And going back to your point,
as we continue to astound.

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ourselves and push the boundaries
in terms of what we can create on a

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technological level and in terms of
what we can do as human beings, as

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societies and those kinds of things.

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At least having access to those kinds
of questions and the different ways in

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which people have gone about answering
those questions or, or thinking about

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them or adding complexity and nuance
to how we respond to those questions.

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I think, like you said, it, it won't
drastically change things, but it

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might shift things a little bit.

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Right?

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I, you know, um, my brother's
a software architect.

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I know about the excitement that goes
into being able to create things in code.

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I'm not against any of that.

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I just shared the ways in which I think
our program shifting to online, even

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though it took me out of my comfort
zone, actually has benefits to it.

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Right?

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I, I'm not.

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Doing, again, the head in the sand,
you know, anti stance, but I do think

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it's worthwhile to bring this kind
of liberal arts informed mindset

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into these conversations, I guess.

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I think that's a really
great way to, to say it.

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Um, let me ask you just a little bit of.

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I mean, you had talked about before
you were using, I mean, I, I would, I

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would feel silly not to have, you know,
including this into the conversation.

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Now you've been using portfolios
with your students doing all of this.

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Is it?

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00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:37,900
Um, can you tell me how, how that
works and why, why are you doing it?

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Because you know, like I, I, I
think about all of the things that

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00:14:41,969 --> 00:14:44,109
you talked about and I feel like.

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You know, I feel like, first of all,
I want to apply, and I think probably

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everyone else does as well, you know,
just let us know the, you know, where I

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was to get all the scholarships as well.

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00:14:58,795 --> 00:15:00,295
And then, you know, learn in, right.

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And then, um, uh, but, but it's
almost like, how, where does

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all of this stuff go, you know?

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And I'm thinking, and you have
this portfolio system and you're

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using it with your students.

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00:15:17,014 --> 00:15:18,645
Can you tell us a little bit about that?

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00:15:18,645 --> 00:15:18,974
Yeah.

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00:15:18,984 --> 00:15:19,935
I'd love to.

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00:15:20,185 --> 00:15:25,754
So, okay, so the, in terms of what brought
me to it, I think of it in terms of a

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couple of almost vignettes, um, in the
sense that, as I already mentioned to

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00:15:30,484 --> 00:15:35,394
you, uh, with my philosophy and education
degree, depending on which university

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00:15:35,394 --> 00:15:41,555
I was at, I was either situated in a
school of education as one of the few

246
00:15:41,555 --> 00:15:47,104
philosophers, or I was a philosopher With
a specifically education mindset, right?

247
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So it just depended on where my home
base was, but in working into teacher

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00:15:51,795 --> 00:15:56,694
education, as you probably already
know, portfolios have a long history

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00:15:56,725 --> 00:16:01,504
and, and the point of them, at least
when, and again, most of my teacher

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00:16:01,504 --> 00:16:06,805
education work has been in institutions
that have a commitment to liberal arts.

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So teacher education in the liberal
arts context, which I know can look

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different, you know, depending on the
kind of, uh, university one is at.

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Um, but the point that portfolios play,
for those who don't know, is as the,

254
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:26,020
the student who's, uh, working toward
licensure as an educator finishes

255
00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:29,030
their coursework, and then they're
doing their professional practice,

256
00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:32,349
whether that's usually their placement
in schools and those kinds of things,

257
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and then preparing themselves.

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00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:37,899
To then be able to work as educators,
they're usually asked to create a

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00:16:37,899 --> 00:16:43,879
portfolio as a part of that licensure
process, and it is intended to,

260
00:16:44,059 --> 00:16:49,829
when it's done well, be a space for
reflection on their practice, right?

261
00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:54,500
It is that space for students to
showcase, for sure, their accomplishments.

262
00:16:54,510 --> 00:16:58,030
Sometimes there's a video of them teaching
in a class and those kinds of things.

263
00:16:58,344 --> 00:17:02,555
But really, why it matters and
why, at least from the teacher

264
00:17:02,555 --> 00:17:07,744
education standpoint, we, we had
our students using portfolios was

265
00:17:07,754 --> 00:17:14,135
to give them a space to attend to
the work that they had been doing.

266
00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:20,460
and find ways to identify and reflect
on what about it is significant, what

267
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about it they can learn from, how it is
that it sheds light on who they are as

268
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,690
an educator or the kind of educator they
aspire to be, and all of those things.

269
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,880
And I had such rich and meaningful
experiences working with my students

270
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who were soon teaching and doing their
portfolios, learning about them, not

271
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:44,610
just by supervising them in the class,
which is a part of the equation as well.

272
00:17:44,895 --> 00:17:47,955
But also by engaging with
them through their portfolios.

273
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So that was, that's one of the
ways in which I have, you know,

274
00:17:54,385 --> 00:17:58,295
for most of my career, had a very
positive associations in terms of the

275
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possibilities that portfolios have.

276
00:18:00,945 --> 00:18:08,220
The other thing, and it, I can't even
remember, it was, Uh, 15, 20 years

277
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:13,460
ago, probably closer to 20 years ago,
I remember I was in a class with my

278
00:18:13,460 --> 00:18:19,140
students and I was, so what often happens
in Occupational Hazard if you teach

279
00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:23,949
philosophy Is that people think they
have to talk and write in a certain way

280
00:18:24,189 --> 00:18:28,550
in their philosophy papers that is very
tortured and overblown and almost like a

281
00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:33,829
masterpiece theater, you know, version of,
you know, and, and part of my work would

282
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,339
be to get them to, you know, simplify
and speak in direct terms and it's okay.

283
00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:45,890
You don't have to sound like you're this
elevated, you know, esoteric individual.

284
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,590
Let's work through the ideas together and.

285
00:18:49,605 --> 00:18:54,125
One of the ways in which I did
that is encourage my students,

286
00:18:54,155 --> 00:18:58,085
and there's a time and a place for
it, but to write in first person.

287
00:18:58,795 --> 00:19:02,944
Rather than this abstract, one must think.

288
00:19:02,944 --> 00:19:04,305
It forces one to question.

289
00:19:04,305 --> 00:19:05,035
I'm like, no, no, no.

290
00:19:05,065 --> 00:19:06,575
It's causing you to question.

291
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:09,495
Blame the ideas that you have
and the questions that you

292
00:19:09,495 --> 00:19:10,305
have and that sort of thing.

293
00:19:10,305 --> 00:19:13,580
And one of my students, we were talking
about it in class one day, And one of

294
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:19,780
my students told us, everybody in the
class, that she had a very clear memory

295
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:23,879
as an elementary school student, I think
she said she was in fourth grade, their

296
00:19:23,889 --> 00:19:31,460
teacher took a wooden letter I, capital I,
they went into their yard of their school,

297
00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:35,340
they dug a hole, and they buried the I.

298
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,580
As a way for that teacher to teach
them not to use first person in their

299
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:48,850
writing and that broke my heart because
what that effectively was saying

300
00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:55,729
to them is that you have to silence
your voice, that your individual way.

301
00:19:56,065 --> 00:19:58,645
Of understanding, perceiving,
and responding to the things

302
00:19:58,645 --> 00:20:02,585
that you're learning, you have
to repress and stuff away, right?

303
00:20:02,585 --> 00:20:05,525
And what a vivid way, I can't
believe that this teacher did

304
00:20:05,525 --> 00:20:06,805
this with the students, right?

305
00:20:06,895 --> 00:20:09,994
And that student carried that with her,
you know, this was undergraduate students,

306
00:20:10,064 --> 00:20:11,595
carried that with her all the way.

307
00:20:11,785 --> 00:20:15,345
So that even when her professor is
saying, please write in first person,

308
00:20:15,675 --> 00:20:17,705
she was saying, I, I can't, I can't.

309
00:20:17,855 --> 00:20:20,865
It's still buried, you know, to
her, it felt as though it was still

310
00:20:20,875 --> 00:20:24,975
buried in that schoolyard back
from when she was a fourth grader.

311
00:20:24,975 --> 00:20:30,739
Learn And I remembered how, as a graduate
student, I, too, fell into those same

312
00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:35,699
traps, and I was writing papers, you know,
that were technically very well done or

313
00:20:35,699 --> 00:20:39,810
philosophically well constructed, but my
advisor was saying, where are you in this?

314
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:41,929
I don't see you in this, right?

315
00:20:42,270 --> 00:20:48,815
And I just, those combination of
things caused me as an educator to

316
00:20:48,815 --> 00:20:53,485
make a choice, especially after that
story, then and there, to work as

317
00:20:53,605 --> 00:20:59,374
diligently as I can against that
movement, that pressure, right?

318
00:20:59,435 --> 00:21:05,144
I want my students to understand
and reflect on what they think,

319
00:21:05,544 --> 00:21:09,195
why they think what they think,
and how they think what they think.

320
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,149
And to then be able to see it for
themselves, rather than hide it

321
00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:19,810
behind impersonal language, rather
than hide it behind this pretend

322
00:21:19,859 --> 00:21:22,239
pose of being this abstract.

323
00:21:22,685 --> 00:21:28,125
Scholar that isn't situated within a
particular person with a particular

324
00:21:28,125 --> 00:21:31,245
set of experiences and a particular
culture and history and all those

325
00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:34,275
different sorts of things that we know
that we bring into all of the work.

326
00:21:35,485 --> 00:21:40,814
And so, one of the ways, you know, putting
these different pieces together, one of

327
00:21:40,814 --> 00:21:46,405
the ways that I see to help my students
do that is through portfolios, right?

328
00:21:46,455 --> 00:21:51,735
That is a space where my students
are able to hold together

329
00:21:51,735 --> 00:21:52,845
the work that they're doing.

330
00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:54,460
Reflect on it.

331
00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:56,940
The reflection piece is
really important for me.

332
00:21:57,260 --> 00:22:01,409
Um, it's not, again, it's not just
showing to tell from my point of view.

333
00:22:01,470 --> 00:22:07,419
It's really about what you have to say
about the work that you've done and why

334
00:22:07,429 --> 00:22:10,810
you've chosen certain pieces to highlight.

335
00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:14,540
And, and, and I used Digication in
a number of different ways, but in

336
00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:19,330
the capstone, that's the portfolio
that I teach, um, I have my students.

337
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:22,640
They do a number of different
reflective, excuse me,

338
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,270
reflective essays on Digication.

339
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:29,649
It's separated into five sections,
but in two sections, they use

340
00:22:29,660 --> 00:22:33,129
artifacts of their work, but they
use them in very different ways.

341
00:22:33,389 --> 00:22:36,540
One of the sections is about
developmental milestones.

342
00:22:37,030 --> 00:22:43,419
So, I am asking students not to choose
their best, not to choose the things

343
00:22:43,419 --> 00:22:48,659
that they are even necessarily, you
know, super proud or excited to share.

344
00:22:49,050 --> 00:22:54,539
I want them to find those critical
moments, those turning points, those,

345
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:59,729
those times in their learning that
something happened as a result of it,

346
00:22:59,819 --> 00:23:03,380
whether that means they learned English,
they needed to write in a different way.

347
00:23:03,790 --> 00:23:07,020
They found that the way that they
were approaching scholarship and

348
00:23:07,020 --> 00:23:11,410
research was, um, not leading to
fruitful ground, whatever it might be.

349
00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:15,270
And that's what they put on their
Digication pages for that section.

350
00:23:15,499 --> 00:23:17,480
And then, of course, they
write about it, right?

351
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,739
And they claim it.

352
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:23,280
And then they try to understand
how that played an important part.

353
00:23:23,610 --> 00:23:25,730
in their journey as a
student in our program.

354
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,490
Then there's the other section where it
is the showcasing and the accomplishments

355
00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:34,110
and I want to see what they see as their
best work in relation to our learning

356
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,670
outcomes for our program and all that
stuff and then still reflect on that

357
00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:42,979
and also connect that back to how does
this collection of artifacts relate

358
00:23:42,979 --> 00:23:46,560
to this other collection of artifacts
because they're all a part of the same I.

359
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:48,820
They're all a part of the same person.

360
00:23:48,885 --> 00:23:53,255
Who has learned throughout
this program and developed

361
00:23:53,255 --> 00:23:54,425
and evolved in different ways.

362
00:23:54,425 --> 00:23:58,885
And so that's 1 of the things that I
see as being so powerful about what the

363
00:23:58,885 --> 00:24:01,685
portfolio allows our students to do.

364
00:24:01,695 --> 00:24:02,465
It also.

365
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,210
As I think you and I have talked about
in separate context, really places,

366
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:11,170
at least from the way I approach it,
places this emphasis on narrative and

367
00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:15,440
the narrative unity of the individual
who is presenting this information.

368
00:24:15,449 --> 00:24:21,520
They have to think about who am I
and how am I going to present myself

369
00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:26,020
and my work on this platform with
there's, as you know, there's plenty

370
00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:27,630
of room for creative expression.

371
00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:30,010
And then, of course, there are
the different parameters and

372
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:31,610
expectations I set up for them.

373
00:24:31,985 --> 00:24:37,375
And they then have that opportunity
to weave their story together in

374
00:24:37,375 --> 00:24:38,525
a way that makes sense to them.

375
00:24:38,525 --> 00:24:40,465
I encourage them to use metaphor.

376
00:24:40,465 --> 00:24:44,245
I encourage them to think of
it as a form of storytelling.

377
00:24:44,564 --> 00:24:48,685
Um, but it, that can look very
different for different students.

378
00:24:48,695 --> 00:24:53,405
So, some of my students who have more
of those linear, concrete ways, their

379
00:24:53,405 --> 00:24:56,715
way of expressing that looks different
than some of my students who have more

380
00:24:56,725 --> 00:24:58,924
artistic inclinations, and that's fine.

381
00:24:59,275 --> 00:25:01,775
I'm still seeing them emerge.

382
00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:03,380
as themselves.

383
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,620
And what's neat about it is teaching
this every single semester, fall,

384
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,309
spring, and summer, since I started,
like I said, six years ago, I've never

385
00:25:12,309 --> 00:25:14,879
seen two portfolios look the same.

386
00:25:15,149 --> 00:25:19,800
And now with Digication, it's
just amplified even more, right?

387
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,560
I mean, they're able to really express
themselves on a level beyond what

388
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,470
they could do in a Word document.

389
00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:27,460
So it's really exciting.

390
00:25:27,790 --> 00:25:29,800
Again, though, the disclaimer
is that that's not the only

391
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:30,789
way we're using Digication.

392
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:31,600
That's just an example.

393
00:25:32,294 --> 00:25:33,225
Oh, how that's playing out.

394
00:25:33,284 --> 00:25:34,644
I think that it's, that's amazing.

395
00:25:34,644 --> 00:25:40,324
And you know, something about, I
mean, I think we actually touched

396
00:25:40,324 --> 00:25:45,824
on this idea of having the time
and space to just think and, and

397
00:25:45,824 --> 00:25:51,504
identify those points in lives where
changes happened and reflect on that.

398
00:25:51,504 --> 00:25:55,814
It's, it's a, it's a real privilege to
have that time, you know, to do that,

399
00:25:55,965 --> 00:26:00,284
to, to, to have someone say, Oh, hold on
a minute, that's, that's what matters.

400
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:01,230
A lot.

401
00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:02,680
You're going to spend time doing that.

402
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:02,900
Right.

403
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:03,440
Yeah.

404
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,760
We're not going to have you read 13
more textbooks because guess what?

405
00:26:07,770 --> 00:26:09,720
There's 3, 000 more.

406
00:26:09,779 --> 00:26:11,989
There's 30, 000 more in the library.

407
00:26:12,899 --> 00:26:14,250
You know, you'll never finish them.

408
00:26:14,399 --> 00:26:15,309
Exactly.

409
00:26:15,420 --> 00:26:21,679
Um, so, but instead of doing any of those,
um, stop for a minute and just do this.

410
00:26:22,139 --> 00:26:22,350
Right.

411
00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:22,629
Yeah.

412
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:29,765
And I love that because it It
takes a very complex self, um,

413
00:26:30,075 --> 00:26:32,314
to try to make connections.

414
00:26:33,254 --> 00:26:41,225
And I think that we, you know, like,
um, we make connections, we make

415
00:26:41,225 --> 00:26:44,854
connections sometimes naturally, but
sometimes we have to go in and seek

416
00:26:44,854 --> 00:26:46,824
them out and make those connections.

417
00:26:47,104 --> 00:26:49,595
The good thing about it is
that once you make some certain

418
00:26:49,595 --> 00:26:51,354
connections, they don't get unmade.

419
00:26:51,574 --> 00:26:51,985
You see.

420
00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:53,094
You know, it's easy.

421
00:26:53,094 --> 00:26:54,065
It becomes easy.

422
00:26:54,074 --> 00:26:55,694
You're like, Oh, well,
it's like riding a bike.

423
00:26:55,694 --> 00:26:58,695
Once you know, you've made
the connections on how.

424
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,920
How balance works with your
body, and it just kind of, it

425
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,550
just, it's just always there.

426
00:27:04,550 --> 00:27:10,379
And I, I love that about, you know,
sort of you having the students

427
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:15,350
think about these critical turning
points, moments, you know, of their

428
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:19,040
lives and, and, and reflect on them.

429
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:27,425
And I, I think that, um, In Digication,
one of the, we have a, we have

430
00:27:27,425 --> 00:27:34,035
this, we have this, uh, this phrase,
this, this thing called, you know,

431
00:27:34,045 --> 00:27:35,895
be heard, be seen, be recognized.

432
00:27:36,465 --> 00:27:40,265
But I think that, you know,
sometimes we, we forget it.

433
00:27:40,265 --> 00:27:42,904
You have to be heard, be seen,
be recognized by yourself.

434
00:27:43,134 --> 00:27:43,614
Yes.

435
00:27:44,235 --> 00:27:51,729
First, because if, You know, it's, it's,
um, you know, I was, you know, really

436
00:27:51,739 --> 00:27:59,590
trained in the arts and design and,
and, and some of the, some of the ways

437
00:27:59,590 --> 00:28:04,870
people thinking about expression and
self expression, um, it's about finding

438
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:10,010
yourself, finding about what it is that
you wanted to, what, what you're about

439
00:28:10,010 --> 00:28:15,280
and what you like, what you What your
visions are, you know, um, and then

440
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,120
you have to express it to other people.

441
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,030
Then you have to take some of
that back and you have to do

442
00:28:19,030 --> 00:28:20,550
it again and over and over.

443
00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:25,129
Um, and these are the kind of things that
these are kind of some of the process that

444
00:28:25,139 --> 00:28:35,420
I feel like are, um, They are absolutely
non linear and not specializable, you

445
00:28:35,740 --> 00:28:38,310
know, talking about how to be specialized.

446
00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:41,309
You can't specialize on that
because you are going to be

447
00:28:41,309 --> 00:28:42,500
different from everyone else.

448
00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:42,900
Yeah.

449
00:28:43,099 --> 00:28:43,389
Yeah.

450
00:28:43,389 --> 00:28:46,219
So you, you can specialize in yourself.

451
00:28:46,999 --> 00:28:48,029
That's exactly it.

452
00:28:48,069 --> 00:28:49,040
I agree completely.

453
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:54,119
And that, that's very much where I
was coming from as I've taken over

454
00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:57,420
the portfolio capstone and continue
to teach it and craft it and make.

455
00:28:57,939 --> 00:29:03,050
Tweaks to it is this idea of helping
my students synthesize their learning

456
00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:07,449
and to be able to articulate it,
like you said, to themselves and

457
00:29:07,450 --> 00:29:09,149
then to be able to carry it forward.

458
00:29:09,439 --> 00:29:15,510
Because Time and time again, they will
be asked, what is this MLA all about?

459
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,020
What, you got this MLA degree, what is it?

460
00:29:18,030 --> 00:29:18,750
What has it been?

461
00:29:19,179 --> 00:29:23,070
And, you know, they can give an answer
similar to what I've done, but that's not

462
00:29:23,070 --> 00:29:27,819
going to be as interesting if they don't
see themselves within that MLA degree.

463
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:33,129
And if they don't see how they
themselves have taken that

464
00:29:33,139 --> 00:29:36,590
opportunity to, to earn this degree
and what it has meant for them.

465
00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:42,270
And how they see it connecting
for themselves in terms of

466
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:44,419
who they are and what they do.

467
00:29:44,689 --> 00:29:46,939
And so, I could not agree with you more.

468
00:29:46,939 --> 00:29:52,629
I think especially because we are such
a non specialized degree, we would

469
00:29:52,639 --> 00:29:56,669
do our students a disservice to not
provide them with this opportunity.

470
00:29:56,729 --> 00:29:57,449
Do you know what I mean?

471
00:29:57,449 --> 00:29:57,989
Like, I think.

472
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:58,217
Right.

473
00:29:58,725 --> 00:30:04,255
It's, it's, but I, frankly, like you, I
think it's important, regardless of what

474
00:30:04,255 --> 00:30:08,315
one studies, that would be my argument
as well, and I love what you had to say.

475
00:30:08,730 --> 00:30:14,460
About, um, how, as a student of art,
that is a continuous discussion about

476
00:30:14,580 --> 00:30:19,700
expression and self expression, and
then also reaching across yourself to

477
00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:23,650
others, too, who you don't even know,
aren't even in the room with you when

478
00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:25,360
you're doing that process of creation.

479
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,130
And so, how do you create
those opportunities for synergy

480
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:30,300
and connection and synthesis?

481
00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:31,500
All of that.

482
00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:33,230
I think this helps.

483
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:38,105
I think this gives the students
the right kind of Encounter, I

484
00:30:38,105 --> 00:30:43,445
guess, with that way of responding
to the work that they've done.

485
00:30:44,865 --> 00:30:49,085
Well, um, I feel like that I
can talk to you forever, Laura.

486
00:30:50,215 --> 00:30:53,765
I, um, I think we've probably gone a
little over than we normally do anyway.

487
00:30:53,765 --> 00:30:54,745
Oh no, I'm sorry!

488
00:30:55,235 --> 00:30:56,925
No, but, oh, no, please don't.

489
00:30:56,955 --> 00:31:03,195
Um, I, I'm getting my, um, my dose
of MLA, um, class right now, I feel.

490
00:31:03,645 --> 00:31:09,909
And, uh, but, um, seriously, I, I
can't imagine people listening to this.

491
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:12,680
If you made it this far, I think
you're going to probably go and

492
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,810
check out, check out the MLA program.

493
00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:21,810
I hope so, and I would actually in
all sincerity, uh, I'm sure you'll

494
00:31:21,810 --> 00:31:23,600
provide my contact information.

495
00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:29,740
I'm more than happy to correspond with
or even meet with over video conference.

496
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:35,460
Anyone who has interest or MLA program,
obviously I think it's a pretty neat

497
00:31:35,780 --> 00:31:40,110
experience and I hope others Like you
said, I hope they see that as well, at

498
00:31:40,110 --> 00:31:41,380
least emerge out of our conversation.

499
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:45,300
Well, especially because
it's an online async program.

500
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:45,660
Yeah.

501
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,110
I'd imagine that means people
can come from all over the world.

502
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:48,820
Exactly.

503
00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:49,340
Yeah.

504
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:53,520
Um, you know, you don't have to
uproot your family to go and do it.

505
00:31:53,530 --> 00:31:55,630
You could be, like you said,
working in the West Coast.

506
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,320
You can be in Silicon Valley,
Hotshot, and then learn about.

507
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:03,670
You know, find out for
yourself what you're doing.

508
00:32:03,730 --> 00:32:06,880
Is it, is it, you know, just
because you can, should you?

509
00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:07,460
Yeah.

510
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:08,360
Um, right.

511
00:32:08,410 --> 00:32:13,730
And, uh, you could also be, you
know, someone who's, um, you

512
00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:19,540
know, um, a practicing doctor in
a place where you are seeing, um,

513
00:32:19,610 --> 00:32:21,280
lots of difficulty and suffering.

514
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,090
And you have to figure out, well, what
this, you know, what does this all mean?

515
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:25,640
Yeah.

516
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,526
What does this all mean?

517
00:32:26,526 --> 00:32:27,234
Meaning, how do I?

518
00:32:27,385 --> 00:32:30,865
Continue to provide value
to, to our world, right?

519
00:32:30,885 --> 00:32:35,495
So, so I, I think that it's, it's
an amazing, it's amazing place.

520
00:32:35,495 --> 00:32:39,635
I almost feel like that, you know, it's
one of those things that, uh, people,

521
00:32:39,735 --> 00:32:44,975
I, I, I love what you said, you know, we
have people in the eighties taking this.

522
00:32:44,975 --> 00:32:47,265
I almost feel like people
should take it every 10 years.

523
00:32:48,245 --> 00:32:49,135
That would be great.

524
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:56,030
Yeah, well, not to, not to sound
like a sales pitch, but actually one

525
00:32:56,030 --> 00:33:00,160
of our alumni benefits is that once
you've completed our program, you

526
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,990
can come back and audit our courses
for one third the tuition rate.

527
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:08,460
So, that creates that opportunity
for those who just want to

528
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:09,600
keep going a little bit more.

529
00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:13,695
Just every now and then pick out one of
our classes and they're able to access

530
00:33:13,695 --> 00:33:16,580
it at a more reasonable price for them.

531
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,460
Yeah, so.

532
00:33:17,470 --> 00:33:19,250
Yeah, that's, that's, that's pretty cool.

533
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:19,760
That's pretty cool.

534
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:20,340
I like that.

535
00:33:20,370 --> 00:33:24,570
Yeah, at least I think it supports
this idea about that the learning is

536
00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:28,930
never finished, you know, and that
we're all, um, there's never that.

537
00:33:29,665 --> 00:33:33,015
That's the final endpoint for us,
at least in terms of this program

538
00:33:33,015 --> 00:33:34,825
and, and these kinds of questions.

539
00:33:35,525 --> 00:33:36,835
Well, and it's not the point, right?

540
00:33:36,905 --> 00:33:37,155
Right.

541
00:33:37,365 --> 00:33:37,605
It's not.

542
00:33:37,785 --> 00:33:39,075
We didn't beat MLA.

543
00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:39,425
Right.

544
00:33:39,425 --> 00:33:42,375
We got to the end and you were done.

545
00:33:42,525 --> 00:33:42,915
Yeah.

546
00:33:43,345 --> 00:33:43,595
Yeah.

547
00:33:43,595 --> 00:33:49,065
And that's selfishly why it's so great to
teach in the MLA program because I get to

548
00:33:49,065 --> 00:33:53,885
keep learning every single class I teach
every single semester, you know, with all

549
00:33:53,885 --> 00:33:55,335
the different students I get to work with.

550
00:33:55,345 --> 00:33:56,635
So selfishly, I'm just.

551
00:33:57,545 --> 00:34:01,155
Just benefiting just as much from
the experience as the students are.

552
00:34:02,595 --> 00:34:07,925
Well, um, your happiness and your
passion, you know, with all of

553
00:34:07,925 --> 00:34:09,615
this is just absolutely infectious.

554
00:34:09,705 --> 00:34:10,015
Oh.

555
00:34:10,035 --> 00:34:15,415
I, I wish you, um, the best and, uh,
continued success in, in swimming in

556
00:34:15,415 --> 00:34:20,835
this incredible intellectual and, and,
and philosophical pool of talents.

557
00:34:21,475 --> 00:34:23,355
Um, and, uh, I.

558
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,280
I hope that, um, we get to continue
to, you know, support your work

559
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,620
and then seeing, seeing where
things go in the next, you know, in

560
00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:33,010
the, in the, in the coming years.

561
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:35,570
I'm sure that we'll, you know,
have more of these conversations

562
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:37,640
and I look forward to next time.

563
00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:38,810
Thank you so much, Jeff.

564
00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:42,400
I feel as though every single time
we talk, I walk away with so many

565
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,890
different ideas about things I
want to be doing in my classes.

566
00:34:44,890 --> 00:34:48,370
And I just need to express to
you how much I have enjoyed the

567
00:34:48,370 --> 00:34:50,040
collaboration that we've been doing.

568
00:34:50,725 --> 00:34:53,335
Like I said, the different
possibilities that are now opened up

569
00:34:53,355 --> 00:34:57,365
now that we're, um, using Digication
more and more in our classes, so.

570
00:34:57,910 --> 00:35:00,750
Until the next time,
but thank you so much.

571
00:35:00,750 --> 00:35:05,790
Please, I hope you hear how grateful
I am for how much you have brought

572
00:35:05,830 --> 00:35:09,180
into these conversations that
we've been having over the past.

573
00:35:09,180 --> 00:35:12,990
Like you said, I think it's been
around 12 to 18 months or so.

574
00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:14,330
So thank you so much.

575
00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:16,020
All right.

576
00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:16,830
Take care, Laura.

577
00:35:16,890 --> 00:35:17,340
Bye bye.

578
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:18,190
Bye.

579
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,780
This concludes our conversation.

580
00:35:22,135 --> 00:35:26,295
To hear our next episode, be sure
to subscribe to Digication Scholars

581
00:35:26,295 --> 00:35:30,955
Conversations on YouTube, iTunes,
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582
00:35:31,785 --> 00:35:36,145
The Digication Scholars Conversations
series is brought to you by Digication,

583
00:35:36,145 --> 00:35:40,685
a technology platform powering the
most innovative ePortfolio programs

584
00:35:40,685 --> 00:35:42,305
in K 12 and higher education.

585
00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:45,075
Our website can be found at Digication.

586
00:35:45,115 --> 00:35:45,345
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587
00:35:45,345 --> 00:35:49,185
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588
00:35:49,275 --> 00:35:50,805
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589
00:35:51,495 --> 00:35:52,