Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with Laura
DeSisto, Program Director and Senior Lecturer for the Master of Liberal Arts
program at Johns Hopkins University.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
One part you said that really, um, uh, You know, really rings true in my,
also just my experience and, you know, seeing people around, around me and
colleagues and people I've come across.
People I admire, right, is, is that, um, all the, all the leaders, um, there
isn't one, one leader who, who hasn't, who hasn't, whether they got their skills
from a liberal arts education, who doesn't have all the skills that you, you talked
about, um, and, and there isn't really an easy direct path to learn those skills.
Right.
There just isn't.
Right.
Um, you know, there actually isn't a You know, um, you can't
major in being a CEO, um, right?
Yeah.
You can't major in being the United States president.
Um, the, these majors don't exist and, and it really requires a person to, to, um.
You know, you can either professionally try to get that experience
through something like the MLA program, or you have to seek it
elsewhere, but you have to get it.
You don't, it doesn't come for free.
You don't get to get a, you know, education or an experience
in a professional way.
You will get all that experience, no doubt, but you
just won't get the other part.
And no, at the same time, getting this MLA degree doesn't give you the ability to
operate on someone's open heart surgery.
Right.
You know, so look, you know, you, you, you, you kind of need both, you know,
yeah, so, so, but if you are, I actually do think that there's something that,
cause my, I have three Children who are, um, uh, sort of high school age
and they're, you know, they're thinking about careers and, and things like that a
little bit and, and, um, it's interesting because they all have different,
different, different ways of thinking about it, but definitely, um, uh, some.
Some sort of, you know, like, I don't know what I want to do, right?
And, and I actually think that, um, That's the person probably
would have been a perfect fit for like a liberal arts program.
Because it allows you to look at the world intensely.
Exactly.
For a while.
Yeah.
Let you understand, like you said, understand what it means to be human.
That you make some, get some ideas on.
It's almost like you get to date all the ideas that exist in the world that
could matter so that you can pick out something that is meaningful for you.
Right.
Like you'll build your value system, you know?
And then work your way into something that will potentially
click for you and that's fine, right?
There's no harm in that, right?
I agree completely.
You know, it's really interesting.
My father was a chemical engineer, but he was one of the people who was
most supportive of the fact that I entered into college already having
declared philosophy as my major, right?
And so, and he would read my papers because I'd ask him to.
I don't know how much of the content would connect, but, you know, there was that.
And then after he retired, he started teaching.
Math, and he and I, I would have the best conversations about teaching
and learning that were grounded in philosophy, even if he didn't have all
those texts in his background, right?
You know, those kinds of things.
And that's what I mean where I really want to make sure it's clear
that sure, of course, because of my particular training and because of
the program that I'm associated with, it looks a particular way and has the
trappings of a liberal arts education.
I don't think of liberal education more broadly.
With a gatekeeper mentality, right?
I think that there are points of access to this kind of way of
exploring and understanding and engaging with texts and ideas that
exist in a number of different spaces.
Um, what's nice, going back to your point, is that we happen to provide it in a way
where we're giving you some guidance.
We've assembled a collection of courses that we think come together.
In a way that benefits people.
If other people want to get at it a different way, that's fine too.
It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be, you know, the only pathway through.
It is funny though, in terms of what you're talking about, I'm trying not
to be the philosophy nerd that I am, but you know, you're, you're touching
upon these ideas about the, you know, what does it take to be a good leader?
I mean, these are the kinds of questions, this goes back to
this theme of eternal questions.
These are ones that we've been asking for thousands of years, right?
Um, LATO's Republic is an entire dialogue about who should lead and what is the
proper education for those who lead.
And, you know, spoiler alert, it gets very messy and complicated along the way.
I won't give everything away.
I'll let people Dive into that text if they choose.
Um, but it's, it wasn't a clear cut answer in terms of how you go about doing that.
And then even, you know, we move a little bit further, not that much, but
to Aristotle and, um, his discussion about someone who is the best prepared
to live a life of human flourishing.
And one of the key factors that he talks about is practical wisdom.
Practical wisdom is not necessarily something that is easily.
taught, but it is something that we work toward and that that it
doesn't just, you can't just snap your fingers and suddenly have it.
And so again, and this is actually why I really like, I have in my,
for a significant portion of my career taught in the undergraduate
environment, but I do really enjoy working in this graduate space as well.
I love working with undergraduate students.
Absolutely.
No question.
Um, I've so many positive associations with that.
But there's something really interesting about working with
individuals at this graduate level.
You know, they've already received their undergraduate degree.
Like I said, in many ways, they have, they're, they're moving on in their lives.
They have careers, they have other commitments, they have
all those other sorts of things.
And yet, they're coming back to do this kind of concentrated study, bringing all
of that wealth of experience with them into the conversations, right, bringing
all of those different, not just their schooling experience, but also, in many
cases, their professional encounters, their Opportunities that they've had
to engage with the world around them, whether that means they're located across
the globe, or they've traveled more, or all those different sorts of things.
And then they're bringing that in to do this kind of study, right?
It's cliche, but in liberal arts education, the phrase
lifelong learner often is heard.
It actually can mean something very rich and true where these individuals are
willing to make themselves vulnerable.
To get outside of their comfort zone and learn things that they've
never encountered before and I think that feeds into those other
kinds of positive qualities that you were alluding to before, right?
I mean, I know there are different concepts of leadership.
But I think a really strong one is somebody who is willing to
do all of those things, right?
Right.
Hear from others, learn from others, and so on and so forth.
I, I also must say that there is a, um, one more piece that, um,
to me, having the skills to lead.
Um, you know, or to also combine with a lot of the understanding our
environments in the world in which we live and how we can improve it,
sustain it, and do all of that.
And I, I do think that there is a, um, um, you know, like you mentioned
before, so many students might have had an MBA before or after, right.
And they may go on, become, you know, successful capitalists and whatnot.
Um, but one of the things that I.
I, I hope that what something like this get them to, to include in their way of
operation, the way of day to day, you know, decision making and, and, and just
what, what, what, what, what's meaningful for them is to not only do it for the.
You know, not in the expense of other people, it's how do you make the world
a better place, make it a more habitable place, happier place, in general.
I mean, it's tilted in that direction, even if it's not
fully tilted in that direction.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so one of the core classes that I teach is called, um, Ways of Knowing, and
it's the historical and epistemological foundations of liberal arts education.
I know that's a very wordy title.
In sum, basically what we do in that class is we study the history of what the term
liberal arts has meant and what liberal arts education has looked like and how it
has shifted and changed over millennia.
And, um, I teach it in the fall.
And so this past fall, so the semester was coming to a close in December.
And my students in the final unit of the course are working on research
projects related to contemporary challenges that are, that we face
in terms of liberal arts education.
They choose these different categories, um, Liberal Education for Democracy, uh,
Working Across Disciplinary Boundaries, Liberal Education Across the Globe,
and, uh, Diversity and Inclusion.
Or actually, I should say Inclusive Excellence is that category.
And I had a few students, one of them in particular that was coming to mind.
Uh, she is very, very successful on the West Coast in the technology, the computer
science world, that, that whole realm.
And she decided to do the Crossing Disciplinary
Boundaries topic for her study.
And she was looking at computer scientists in particular and how she was
trying to make a case for how and why.
True study of ethics, not, you know, the, the kind of, uh, surface level,
like case study, morality kind of class that sometimes you get exposed
to in a business school or something like that, but a genuine study of
questions related to how should we live?
What does it mean to live a good life?
And she was trying to make a case as to why that was really important.
And just as she was getting to the final weeks of working on her
project, All the news started really popping up about CHAT GPT, right?
And it launched this whole discussion in my class about just because you
can doesn't mean that you should.
And, or what are the implications, even if you can create something like this?
Are you thinking through the moral and ethical implications
of the thing that you've created?
Not to bash it, right?
Not to say that it's a bad creat you know, that we actually need to
acknowledge that there are many ways in which artificial intelligence is
already built into the infrastructure of our lives in ways that are sometimes
even completely invisible to us.
But thinking about what would it mean for every time we're innovating,
every time we're, there are disruptors to what we think of as the norm.
Those individuals are also engaging in dialogue and conversations and
questions with one another about this idea of, again, to put it kind of in
a trite terms, just because we can doesn't mean that we should, right?
And that can be applied to conversations about the atomic bomb.
It can be applied to any number of other things that we've
encountered in our society.
And going back to your point, as we continue to astound.
ourselves and push the boundaries in terms of what we can create on a
technological level and in terms of what we can do as human beings, as
societies and those kinds of things.
At least having access to those kinds of questions and the different ways in
which people have gone about answering those questions or, or thinking about
them or adding complexity and nuance to how we respond to those questions.
I think, like you said, it, it won't drastically change things, but it
might shift things a little bit.
Right?
I, you know, um, my brother's a software architect.
I know about the excitement that goes into being able to create things in code.
I'm not against any of that.
I just shared the ways in which I think our program shifting to online, even
though it took me out of my comfort zone, actually has benefits to it.
Right?
I, I'm not.
Doing, again, the head in the sand, you know, anti stance, but I do think
it's worthwhile to bring this kind of liberal arts informed mindset
into these conversations, I guess.
I think that's a really great way to, to say it.
Um, let me ask you just a little bit of.
I mean, you had talked about before you were using, I mean, I, I would, I
would feel silly not to have, you know, including this into the conversation.
Now you've been using portfolios with your students doing all of this.
Is it?
Um, can you tell me how, how that works and why, why are you doing it?
Because you know, like I, I, I think about all of the things that
you talked about and I feel like.
You know, I feel like, first of all, I want to apply, and I think probably
everyone else does as well, you know, just let us know the, you know, where I
was to get all the scholarships as well.
And then, you know, learn in, right.
And then, um, uh, but, but it's almost like, how, where does
all of this stuff go, you know?
And I'm thinking, and you have this portfolio system and you're
using it with your students.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah.
I'd love to.
So, okay, so the, in terms of what brought me to it, I think of it in terms of a
couple of almost vignettes, um, in the sense that, as I already mentioned to
you, uh, with my philosophy and education degree, depending on which university
I was at, I was either situated in a school of education as one of the few
philosophers, or I was a philosopher With a specifically education mindset, right?
So it just depended on where my home base was, but in working into teacher
education, as you probably already know, portfolios have a long history
and, and the point of them, at least when, and again, most of my teacher
education work has been in institutions that have a commitment to liberal arts.
So teacher education in the liberal arts context, which I know can look
different, you know, depending on the kind of, uh, university one is at.
Um, but the point that portfolios play, for those who don't know, is as the,
the student who's, uh, working toward licensure as an educator finishes
their coursework, and then they're doing their professional practice,
whether that's usually their placement in schools and those kinds of things,
and then preparing themselves.
To then be able to work as educators, they're usually asked to create a
portfolio as a part of that licensure process, and it is intended to,
when it's done well, be a space for reflection on their practice, right?
It is that space for students to showcase, for sure, their accomplishments.
Sometimes there's a video of them teaching in a class and those kinds of things.
But really, why it matters and why, at least from the teacher
education standpoint, we, we had our students using portfolios was
to give them a space to attend to the work that they had been doing.
and find ways to identify and reflect on what about it is significant, what
about it they can learn from, how it is that it sheds light on who they are as
an educator or the kind of educator they aspire to be, and all of those things.
And I had such rich and meaningful experiences working with my students
who were soon teaching and doing their portfolios, learning about them, not
just by supervising them in the class, which is a part of the equation as well.
But also by engaging with them through their portfolios.
So that was, that's one of the ways in which I have, you know,
for most of my career, had a very positive associations in terms of the
possibilities that portfolios have.
The other thing, and it, I can't even remember, it was, Uh, 15, 20 years
ago, probably closer to 20 years ago, I remember I was in a class with my
students and I was, so what often happens in Occupational Hazard if you teach
philosophy Is that people think they have to talk and write in a certain way
in their philosophy papers that is very tortured and overblown and almost like a
masterpiece theater, you know, version of, you know, and, and part of my work would
be to get them to, you know, simplify and speak in direct terms and it's okay.
You don't have to sound like you're this elevated, you know, esoteric individual.
Let's work through the ideas together and.
One of the ways in which I did that is encourage my students,
and there's a time and a place for it, but to write in first person.
Rather than this abstract, one must think.
It forces one to question.
I'm like, no, no, no.
It's causing you to question.
Blame the ideas that you have and the questions that you
have and that sort of thing.
And one of my students, we were talking about it in class one day, And one of
my students told us, everybody in the class, that she had a very clear memory
as an elementary school student, I think she said she was in fourth grade, their
teacher took a wooden letter I, capital I, they went into their yard of their school,
they dug a hole, and they buried the I.
As a way for that teacher to teach them not to use first person in their
writing and that broke my heart because what that effectively was saying
to them is that you have to silence your voice, that your individual way.
Of understanding, perceiving, and responding to the things
that you're learning, you have to repress and stuff away, right?
And what a vivid way, I can't believe that this teacher did
this with the students, right?
And that student carried that with her, you know, this was undergraduate students,
carried that with her all the way.
So that even when her professor is saying, please write in first person,
she was saying, I, I can't, I can't.
It's still buried, you know, to her, it felt as though it was still
buried in that schoolyard back from when she was a fourth grader.
Learn And I remembered how, as a graduate student, I, too, fell into those same
traps, and I was writing papers, you know, that were technically very well done or
philosophically well constructed, but my advisor was saying, where are you in this?
I don't see you in this, right?
And I just, those combination of things caused me as an educator to
make a choice, especially after that story, then and there, to work as
diligently as I can against that movement, that pressure, right?
I want my students to understand and reflect on what they think,
why they think what they think, and how they think what they think.
And to then be able to see it for themselves, rather than hide it
behind impersonal language, rather than hide it behind this pretend
pose of being this abstract.
Scholar that isn't situated within a particular person with a particular
set of experiences and a particular culture and history and all those
different sorts of things that we know that we bring into all of the work.
And so, one of the ways, you know, putting these different pieces together, one of
the ways that I see to help my students do that is through portfolios, right?
That is a space where my students are able to hold together
the work that they're doing.
Reflect on it.
The reflection piece is really important for me.
Um, it's not, again, it's not just showing to tell from my point of view.
It's really about what you have to say about the work that you've done and why
you've chosen certain pieces to highlight.
And, and, and I used Digication in a number of different ways, but in
the capstone, that's the portfolio that I teach, um, I have my students.
They do a number of different reflective, excuse me,
reflective essays on Digication.
It's separated into five sections, but in two sections, they use
artifacts of their work, but they use them in very different ways.
One of the sections is about developmental milestones.
So, I am asking students not to choose their best, not to choose the things
that they are even necessarily, you know, super proud or excited to share.
I want them to find those critical moments, those turning points, those,
those times in their learning that something happened as a result of it,
whether that means they learned English, they needed to write in a different way.
They found that the way that they were approaching scholarship and
research was, um, not leading to fruitful ground, whatever it might be.
And that's what they put on their Digication pages for that section.
And then, of course, they write about it, right?
And they claim it.
And then they try to understand how that played an important part.
in their journey as a student in our program.
Then there's the other section where it is the showcasing and the accomplishments
and I want to see what they see as their best work in relation to our learning
outcomes for our program and all that stuff and then still reflect on that
and also connect that back to how does this collection of artifacts relate
to this other collection of artifacts because they're all a part of the same I.
They're all a part of the same person.
Who has learned throughout this program and developed
and evolved in different ways.
And so that's 1 of the things that I see as being so powerful about what the
portfolio allows our students to do.
It also.
As I think you and I have talked about in separate context, really places,
at least from the way I approach it, places this emphasis on narrative and
the narrative unity of the individual who is presenting this information.
They have to think about who am I and how am I going to present myself
and my work on this platform with there's, as you know, there's plenty
of room for creative expression.
And then, of course, there are the different parameters and
expectations I set up for them.
And they then have that opportunity to weave their story together in
a way that makes sense to them.
I encourage them to use metaphor.
I encourage them to think of it as a form of storytelling.
Um, but it, that can look very different for different students.
So, some of my students who have more of those linear, concrete ways, their
way of expressing that looks different than some of my students who have more
artistic inclinations, and that's fine.
I'm still seeing them emerge.
as themselves.
And what's neat about it is teaching this every single semester, fall,
spring, and summer, since I started, like I said, six years ago, I've never
seen two portfolios look the same.
And now with Digication, it's just amplified even more, right?
I mean, they're able to really express themselves on a level beyond what
they could do in a Word document.
So it's really exciting.
Again, though, the disclaimer is that that's not the only
way we're using Digication.
That's just an example.
Oh, how that's playing out.
I think that it's, that's amazing.
And you know, something about, I mean, I think we actually touched
on this idea of having the time and space to just think and, and
identify those points in lives where changes happened and reflect on that.
It's, it's a, it's a real privilege to have that time, you know, to do that,
to, to, to have someone say, Oh, hold on a minute, that's, that's what matters.
A lot.
You're going to spend time doing that.
Right.
Yeah.
We're not going to have you read 13 more textbooks because guess what?
There's 3, 000 more.
There's 30, 000 more in the library.
You know, you'll never finish them.
Exactly.
Um, so, but instead of doing any of those, um, stop for a minute and just do this.
Right.
Yeah.
And I love that because it It takes a very complex self, um,
to try to make connections.
And I think that we, you know, like, um, we make connections, we make
connections sometimes naturally, but sometimes we have to go in and seek
them out and make those connections.
The good thing about it is that once you make some certain
connections, they don't get unmade.
You see.
You know, it's easy.
It becomes easy.
You're like, Oh, well, it's like riding a bike.
Once you know, you've made the connections on how.
How balance works with your body, and it just kind of, it
just, it's just always there.
And I, I love that about, you know, sort of you having the students
think about these critical turning points, moments, you know, of their
lives and, and, and reflect on them.
And I, I think that, um, In Digication, one of the, we have a, we have
this, we have this, uh, this phrase, this, this thing called, you know,
be heard, be seen, be recognized.
But I think that, you know, sometimes we, we forget it.
You have to be heard, be seen, be recognized by yourself.
Yes.
First, because if, You know, it's, it's, um, you know, I was, you know, really
trained in the arts and design and, and, and some of the, some of the ways
people thinking about expression and self expression, um, it's about finding
yourself, finding about what it is that you wanted to, what, what you're about
and what you like, what you What your visions are, you know, um, and then
you have to express it to other people.
Then you have to take some of that back and you have to do
it again and over and over.
Um, and these are the kind of things that these are kind of some of the process that
I feel like are, um, They are absolutely non linear and not specializable, you
know, talking about how to be specialized.
You can't specialize on that because you are going to be
different from everyone else.
Yeah.
So you, you can specialize in yourself.
That's exactly it.
I agree completely.
And that, that's very much where I was coming from as I've taken over
the portfolio capstone and continue to teach it and craft it and make.
Tweaks to it is this idea of helping my students synthesize their learning
and to be able to articulate it, like you said, to themselves and
then to be able to carry it forward.
Because Time and time again, they will be asked, what is this MLA all about?
What, you got this MLA degree, what is it?
What has it been?
And, you know, they can give an answer similar to what I've done, but that's not
going to be as interesting if they don't see themselves within that MLA degree.
And if they don't see how they themselves have taken that
opportunity to, to earn this degree and what it has meant for them.
And how they see it connecting for themselves in terms of
who they are and what they do.
And so, I could not agree with you more.
I think especially because we are such a non specialized degree, we would
do our students a disservice to not provide them with this opportunity.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think.
Right.
It's, it's, but I, frankly, like you, I think it's important, regardless of what
one studies, that would be my argument as well, and I love what you had to say.
About, um, how, as a student of art, that is a continuous discussion about
expression and self expression, and then also reaching across yourself to
others, too, who you don't even know, aren't even in the room with you when
you're doing that process of creation.
And so, how do you create those opportunities for synergy
and connection and synthesis?
All of that.
I think this helps.
I think this gives the students the right kind of Encounter, I
guess, with that way of responding to the work that they've done.
Well, um, I feel like that I can talk to you forever, Laura.
I, um, I think we've probably gone a little over than we normally do anyway.
Oh no, I'm sorry!
No, but, oh, no, please don't.
Um, I, I'm getting my, um, my dose of MLA, um, class right now, I feel.
And, uh, but, um, seriously, I, I can't imagine people listening to this.
If you made it this far, I think you're going to probably go and
check out, check out the MLA program.
I hope so, and I would actually in all sincerity, uh, I'm sure you'll
provide my contact information.
I'm more than happy to correspond with or even meet with over video conference.
Anyone who has interest or MLA program, obviously I think it's a pretty neat
experience and I hope others Like you said, I hope they see that as well, at
least emerge out of our conversation.
Well, especially because it's an online async program.
Yeah.
I'd imagine that means people can come from all over the world.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Um, you know, you don't have to uproot your family to go and do it.
You could be, like you said, working in the West Coast.
You can be in Silicon Valley, Hotshot, and then learn about.
You know, find out for yourself what you're doing.
Is it, is it, you know, just because you can, should you?
Yeah.
Um, right.
And, uh, you could also be, you know, someone who's, um, you
know, um, a practicing doctor in a place where you are seeing, um,
lots of difficulty and suffering.
And you have to figure out, well, what this, you know, what does this all mean?
Yeah.
What does this all mean?
Meaning, how do I?
Continue to provide value to, to our world, right?
So, so I, I think that it's, it's an amazing, it's amazing place.
I almost feel like that, you know, it's one of those things that, uh, people,
I, I, I love what you said, you know, we have people in the eighties taking this.
I almost feel like people should take it every 10 years.
That would be great.
Yeah, well, not to, not to sound like a sales pitch, but actually one
of our alumni benefits is that once you've completed our program, you
can come back and audit our courses for one third the tuition rate.
So, that creates that opportunity for those who just want to
keep going a little bit more.
Just every now and then pick out one of our classes and they're able to access
it at a more reasonable price for them.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's pretty cool.
That's pretty cool.
I like that.
Yeah, at least I think it supports this idea about that the learning is
never finished, you know, and that we're all, um, there's never that.
That's the final endpoint for us, at least in terms of this program
and, and these kinds of questions.
Well, and it's not the point, right?
Right.
It's not.
We didn't beat MLA.
Right.
We got to the end and you were done.
Yeah.
And that's selfishly why it's so great to teach in the MLA program because I get to
keep learning every single class I teach every single semester, you know, with all
the different students I get to work with.
So selfishly, I'm just.
Just benefiting just as much from the experience as the students are.
Well, um, your happiness and your passion, you know, with all of
this is just absolutely infectious.
Oh.
I, I wish you, um, the best and, uh, continued success in, in swimming in
this incredible intellectual and, and, and philosophical pool of talents.
Um, and, uh, I.
I hope that, um, we get to continue to, you know, support your work
and then seeing, seeing where things go in the next, you know, in
the, in the, in the coming years.
I'm sure that we'll, you know, have more of these conversations
and I look forward to next time.
Thank you so much, Jeff.
I feel as though every single time we talk, I walk away with so many
different ideas about things I want to be doing in my classes.
And I just need to express to you how much I have enjoyed the
collaboration that we've been doing.
Like I said, the different possibilities that are now opened up
now that we're, um, using Digication more and more in our classes, so.
Until the next time, but thank you so much.
Please, I hope you hear how grateful I am for how much you have brought
into these conversations that we've been having over the past.
Like you said, I think it's been around 12 to 18 months or so.
So thank you so much.
All right.
Take care, Laura.
Bye bye.
Bye.
This concludes our conversation.
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