Matt Abrahams: Curiosity and chemistry are critical to successful communication.
My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I'm excited to speak with Nayeema Raza.
Nayeema is a journalist, producer, and creator.
She was the co-host and executive producer of the hit podcast On with Kara Swisher.
She now hosts her own podcast, Smart Girl, Dumb Questions.
Her work has appeared in The New York Times and New York Magazine, and
she's produced documentary films that bridge complex geopolitical issues
with accessible human narratives.
Nayeema, thank you for being here, and welcome to the
Spotify Studios in New York.
It's awesome to be with you and continue the conversations we've had
on the phone and on email, in person.
Nayeema Raza: Thank you so much for having me.
I love your show, and I'm so thrilled to be part of it.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Nayeema Raza: Yes, let's jump in.
Matt Abrahams: So if you look at your career from management
consultant to journalist to podcast, uh, you've changed a lot.
Nayeema Raza: Yes, and you missed documentary filmmaking.
Matt Abrahams: I did.
I did.
That's true.
That's true, and now TED speaker.
Nayeema Raza: Yes, and for people listening, I'm not old.
I just want you to know that I'm young still.
Matt Abrahams: That's right.
You're very young and very hip.
Uh, in all of those roles actually, you've had to synthesize complex information
and make it accessible to people.
What kind of tools and frameworks do you use to help make that
content easily understood?
Nayeema Raza: So much of it has to do with how I grew up.
I grew up in Indonesia and Sudan.
I'm Pakistani, born in DC.
My entire life I've been what's called, the technical
term, is a third culture kid.
Um, in environments where I didn't necessarily always speak the language,
didn't always, and so I learned to speak body language and read what was happening,
and I think sometimes we get caught up in the details of a moment, but when I'm
making a film or a podcast or telling a story or making a slide, I think part
of the gift of how I grew up is being able to focus on that big picture and
think about what the message is that's coming across, both as I'm receiving
it and as I'm kind of projecting it.
Matt Abrahams: One of the things I have found so useful in the way
you communicate and break things down is you make it relevant.
So you connect it to the people who are listening, which I think really helps.
Do you do that consciously, or is that just something that happens?
Nayeema Raza: I think that it's, it's something that I've become
conscious of and I do increasingly.
So I think that, that my kind of superpower as a communicator is
the ability to bring some levity to topics of gravity and to bring
some gravity to topics of levity.
And what I mean by that is, you know, if you're talking about the world
today, politics, war, et cetera, oh my God, it can be such a bummer.
And you just want to have a little bit of sense that the world continues,
that ,we and so I think infusing some comedy into that and some levity into
that while, you know, not discounting the, the gravity of the situation.
One of, I think, the, uh, best ways that I've learned to condense
information is in the business of headline writing which is a very
fraught enterprise these these days.
But you want to write a headline when you're writing at The New
York Times or elsewhere, and we have a lot of conversation about
what the headline should be.
You want it to grab people's attention, but you want it
to be faithful to the story.
You, I don't think, want it to be polarizing, but you do
want it to be provocative.
And so I think as I started doing a lot of headline writing, I decided that
the best questions I've ever been asked in my life are nine words or less.
Matt Abrahams: Interesting.
Nayeema Raza: And I think that's the same, because if you think about conversation
or you have, someone's cutting through, like right now and blah, blah, blah,
you're hearing this, then I say, "How do we solve that?" That's what you hear.
That's what we digest.
So I think there's something about this punchy, direct question that can
really help cut through the noise.
Sometimes you're asking that to somebody 'cause you're interviewing them.
Sometimes you're asking that to yourself to get yourself to be a
better communicator and understander and interpreter of what's going on.
Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of thinking about your important
communication as a headline.
Now, most of us aren't writing headlines for news outlets.
But we do write emails with subject lines.
We do name our meetings.
We do put titles on slides, and that advice, I think, applies there as well.
And if, and keeping, I'm gonna try the nine-word rule and see if, if we
can, if that applies in the work I do, but I, I absolutely like that idea.
Nayeema Raza: I think it's particularly useful for questions.
Particularly useful for questions.
Matt Abrahams: Yes.
It's thinking about the emotion as well as the content and breaking it
down, and those are all, I think, the right ingredients for helping make
complex information more accessible.
And, and I appreciate that you do that and continue to do that.
We'll be right back to finish our conversation.
But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors.
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And now, back to our conversation.
A lot of your roles have been roles as translator in some ways, translating
technical information, uh, translating for the audience for, for a performer,
and you've, you've been in the position often of being a translator for Gen Z and
millennials, for folks of my generation.
Do you, do you like that role?
Do you have certain things you bring to that role?
Nayeema Raza: I mean, I think every type of communication is
a moment of translation as well.
I mean, I think now that I'm in the host seat and kind of star
of my own show I still think of myself as being the advocate.
Even the title, Smart Girl, Dumb Questions, it's around the kind
of confidence to be curious.
And I, I think about that a lot, Matt, with your work, because you write a
lot about confidence and the ability to communicate from that position.
But I think we have conflated confidence and certainty a little bit.
Matt Abrahams: Ah.
Tell me more about that.
Nayeema Raza: You wanna be confident enough that there is some space left in
your opinion to consider how other people think to consider new information, and to
digest that and, and kind of update your own worldview with that new information.
Not so confident in your opinion that you cannot hear anything else, that you
shut down the kind of first, and so I, I think, you know, I, like I said in the TED
Talk I just gave, it's like the dumbest thing you can be an, is a know-it-all,
and I have seen that play out.
Matt Abrahams: You make a really useful distinction there between
confidence we have in our ability to communicate and confidence in
the things we are communicating.
And I absolutely agree that that confidence in what we're saying,
there needs to be some room for creativity, for openness.
Because if we're, if we're sure of ourselves so much that we don't
bring in other opinions, you know, then we are being, as you said,
dumb and being a know-it-all.
So, uh, I'm, I'm curious, you certainly are confident in your opinions and ideas.
Do you still get nervous when you interview people
and when you're interacting?
And if so, how do you manage that?
Nayeema Raza: No, I, of course I do.
Do you?
Matt Abrahams: Of course.
Yeah.
Nayeema Raza: Yes.
I mean, I think it's, you're nervous because anytime you film or make
something, and I learned this as a documentary filmmaker when I was doing
this, this, uh, film on the band Sublime at Tribeca in 2019, like when you're in
the edit room and you're, and you're, you ask the editor, "Well, why don't
we have that?" And it's like, "Well, because you didn't get it while you were
producing the…" So it's that scarcity of time when you're in conversation
with someone that puts the pressure on.
It's not who they are.
I actually don't, I actually, I think I give more reverence on my show
when I interview two 11-year-olds or two doormen than when I interview
Neil deGrasse Tyson or Mark Cuban.
But I get nervous about how little time there is and whether I can
do everything that I wanna do.
That's what.
Matt Abrahams: I, I feel that same way when, especially in this capacity, is
people are gifting you their time and I wanna, I, I get nervous that I'm
not going to make it a good experience for them or get as much out of it.
Nayeema Raza: But I try, I think it's, uh, you're doing an amazing, amazing job.
I feel very much like this is worthwhile use of time and hope everyone
listening and watching does too.
I, I think, um- people really wanna be understood.
Part of the gift that we have as hosts is helping understand people.
Sometimes people don't necessarily fully understand themselves, and you're
kind of unpacking and translating that.
But I, I think if you enter in the conversation in good faith and
you're really trying to understand someone, then the conversation is
often, if not always, a success.
Matt Abrahams: And it, it's that approach that I think can help calm some of those
nerves, knowing that I'm here to really listen, to allow the person to be heard.
It, when you get out of yourself and realize you're in service of other
people it can really reduce that anxiety.
Nayeema Raza: By the way, every time I stop recording, I'm always like, "That
was terrible." Doesn't matter what I do.
Do you have that, or do you have more confidence on the other end?
Matt Abrahams: Interesting.
I, I do have that, I don't think that was terrible.
I think, "That could've been better."
Nayeema Raza: Yes.
That's, that's actually what I should say.
I don't think it was terrible.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
It's like, I'm just, "Oh, that, that, that could've been better." And, and not on
the guest part, but it's usually my part.
It's like, "I could've done this," or, "I should've done that." Yeah, I, uh,
I have a friend who talks about how we shouldn't should all over ourselves.
And, and I, I unfortunately still do.
Nayeema Raza: It's just your ability to be in the moment is,
is just difficult for all of us.
Matt Abrahams: No, absolutely.
But when you can get in that present moment when you can be in service
of others, I think the, the anxiety abates, the confidence builds.
Nayeema Raza: But that's where I think preparation and the right
amount of preparation is so important because I have found that
I'm, I do really well with improv.
I host, uh, a debate sometimes
at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for Open to Debate on NPR.
And I love that environment because when you have, you know, an intellectual
threesome, uh, with two people on stage fighting with each other or sparring
with each other and you're moderating, you never know what's gonna happen.
Matt Abrahams: I like the idea of an intellectual throuple, but okay, yes.
Nayeema Raza: Exactly, intellectual throuple.
So I think I like to be prepared enough that I have a map, and then
absolutely prepared to throw it away.
And I find when I'm overprepared and I have a script, it really doesn't serve.
If, if it's like 30 questions, it doesn't serve me.
If it's 10, it's perfect.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
Absolutely.
I, uh, the, a lot of the work I've done around spontaneous speaking
is preparing to be spontaneous.
There's a whole bunch of stuff we can do, as you're talking about.
And there's that sweet spot where it's just enough to give you the
confidence and the directionality, but not so much that it's scripted.
And, and finding that, everybody has to find their own sweet spot for that.
But once you do, it really helps.
You left your roles at The New York Times and Vox, which are two traditional media
examples, uh, to strike out on your own.
Uh, I'm curious to get your thoughts as a creator, uh, in what's different,
uh, doing the work you do as an individual creator wor- versus working
for a more traditional media outlet?
Nayeema Raza: Yeah.
A lot more risk, a lot more reward.
That's the simple, uh, headline of it.
Matt Abrahams: And a lot of work.
Nayeema Raza: A lot of work.
I think the hardest thing has been you care so much about your own thing.
I cared so much about other people's things.
I cared about Sway at The New York Times.
I cared about On with Kara Swisher, and I, and I cared about Mixed Signals,
which I co-hosted at Semafor with Ben Smith, um, my former colleague
from The New York Times as well.
But it's a gift to be able to put all that care into something that you
want to build and you think deserves to be in the world, and then the
challenge becomes finding other people who care about it as much as you do.
Um, I have a great team, so I have found that in people like Desta,
my producer, uh, Melissa, Johnny Simon, who engineers our content.
I mean, I, I found people who really care, uh, about it.
So much so that sometimes I'll be like, "Can we get this out early?"
And they're like, "It's not gonna be as good." And I appreciate that they,
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, that feedback.
Nayeema Raza: That feedback loop or, you know.
Um, but I think, okay, this is a very hard question for me because I also
worry about a world in which we're all just broadcasting and projecting,
and everyone has their own channels.
And everyone has to be a creator, and everyone, and
that's what we're being told now.
It's like, well, what does eight billion channels look like, and
who the heck is left to watch?
No wonder everything matters but only in the first second, you know?
Um, so I think about it a lot.
I think I only did this show because I felt I had something to say or,
or a, not even something to say.
I felt I had a tone that I didn't find in the world.
Matt Abrahams: Oh, interesting.
Nayeema Raza: I, I felt that I found people who were very angry, who were
very certain, who were very unplugged, disinterested, but I wasn't finding
that intersection of, okay, I wanna be informed and, about the world and
thoughtful about not the day-to-day news, but these big ideas, capitalism,
hyperindependence, individualization, the shifting world order.
And I wanna talk about it in ways that really impact my own life, and
I wanna do it with a sense of comedy.
And the best thing I could find was comedians who would do this.
But you know, I think there is a, a missing middle of can you be much more
entertaining than legacy media, much more factual than the average kind of
podcast bro or chick, and, you know, more useful than yesterday's news?
Matt Abrahams: The, the purpose-driven approach is, stands out in, in what you
just said, is, is it's not just about getting information out, it's having
a purpose behind that information.
I have worked very hard on thinking about the purpose of this show, and
you've clearly thought about yours.
And I think part of the advice I would give to anybody who starts down this
path of being a creator is really know your purpose, really figure
out what's motivating you 'cause it's hard work, and that purpose can
really get you through some of that.
I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your TED Talk that just came out.
It was, it's, it's very brief, but very effective.
Talk to us about the, the idea of being curious in the modern age.
Nayeema Raza: One, it was such a honor and privilege to be
invited to give a TED Talk.
I wasn't expecting it.
I'd done something at the Comedy Cellar, and, um, some of the
editors at TED and Ignite were there and asked me to do this talk.
I wanted to give a voice to two 11-year-olds I'd interviewed on my show.
And I had asked them, "How does life on screens feel different to real
life?" Because I keep seeing kids, I don't have kids yet, but I see
kids at airports, et cetera, just on FaceTime not speaking to each other.
Have you seen this?
Matt Abrahams: Yes.
Nayeema Raza: Yeah.
So I asked them why that happens and how that feels different to real life.
And Sophie, then 11, now 12, says "You know, it just feels so much
more together when you're with them on FaceTime." That blew my mind.
And I said, "What do you mean?
Like, even more than real life?" And Sophie responds, "Yeah,
because when you're on FaceTime, you're doing stuff together.
You're playing together.
You're doing homework together.
You're doing Roblox together.
But nowadays when you're in real life, everyone's just on their phone."
Matt Abrahams: Right.
Nayeema Raza: And I thought that was such an insight that our ability
to be present in a physical world has been completely distracted by
these devices, and our ability to be present on them, because they're
full screen experiences, is gone up.
And that just made me think a lot about what else we are disconnected
from, our own curiosities.
Because we don't sit and wonder.
We just ask the question and then know the answer, and then project
that answer out in conversation.
And so that's really where the talk started from, and, and it
kind of takes a personal turn of how I learned those lessons.
But it was a gift to be able to share a little bit about how you, um, think
and the world works, and also to be able to share those kids' perspectives,
which really caused a gasp in the room.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
And when I, when I watched the talk and heard it, and I'd actually seen your
interview with them, uh, it, it really is.
You, you shake your head and go, "What? Wait, hold on." But in that moment,
it makes you curious, and, and you do a really nice job in the talk of not
only advocating for the curiosities that you do, but the way in which
you deliver it makes us curious.
And it's a nice example, and I encourage everybody to, to watch and listen
to it, of how delivery reinforces the message in a very positive way.
Nayeema Raza: 'Cause it's playful.
Matt Abrahams: Because it's playful, and it's curious, and it, we see ourselves in
many of the things that you mention, but we don't feel bad about ourselves for it.
We say, "Oh, okay, that's who I am, but I can do this other thing."
So it's empowering in a way, and I think a lot of that is not just the
wordplay, but how you deliver it.
And, and making content accessible in that way, not just making sure we understand
it, but making us feel okay about it, I, I thought it was really well done.
You, you're a great question asker.
Nayeema Raza: I'm gonna ask you a question.
Matt Abrahams: Ask me a question.
Nayeema Raza: Oh my gosh.
Matt Abrahams: I may or may not answer it, but go ahead.
Nayeema Raza: Let me ask you.
Okay.
I feel as a millennial, life is being co-opted by Gen Z now.
We love them, and Gen Alpha increasingly.
And I'm curious how you think about staying relevant as you age.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
So I think a lot about aging and relevance, uh, as I'm getting older
and, and as I'm seeing the impact I can have and what it means.
I think it's all about, to your point, curiosity and listening.
I, I have an amazing job.
I get to work with mid-20 folks who are going to just change the world in amazing
ways, and that helps me feel excited.
It helps me feel relevant.
And a lot of what I do is listen, I'm curious, and ask questions, and those
help me feel like I'm adding value.
When, when I get the opportunity to, to work with my students or, or younger
people and, and really listen, synthesize, and ask questions, that really brings
joy to me and hopefully relevance.
Nayeema Raza: Do you feel like we're losing wisdom?
Matt Abrahams: I think wisdom is changing.
I think, uh, the, the fact that so much information is now available
that the, wisdom and access to information are very connected, but
lived experience, intuition, gut feeling, that's not captured in an
LLM, and I, I fear that people are, are just not curious or seeking wisdom.
They're just seeking information.
So are we losing it?
No, I still think it's there.
I just don't think, I fear that people aren't searching for it.
Nayeema Raza: That is one of the things I, I worry about.
In our culture, I think we're very interested in what's new,
what's fresh, what's cool.
And I think that, look, I, I don't think, I'm not advocating for a gerontocracy.
I think that, you know, people who are, you know, boomers and beyond
probably don't need to be kind of controlling Capitol Hill anymore.
But I do think that there's a wisdom of that experience that is not being
translated as much in our current world, and I sometimes worry about that.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
I, you know, to me, wisdom, there is, wisdom is associated with experience,
so the older you are, the, in theory, the more wisdom you have.
But I have met very wise younger people as well.
Nayeema Raza: Yes.
Of course.
Matt Abrahams: And so we, we, I, I think just this notion of being
open, being curious, listening makes you available to wisdom.
Uh, and, and some of the most insightful things I've learned,
like you did, uh, from 11-year-olds.
I mean, what insight, what wisdom there in that conversation.
So, well, thank you for asking me a question.
Nayeema Raza: Thank you.
Yeah.
Hope that was okay.
Matt Abrahams: Uh, you know, there, there is no right, there is no wrong.
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And now back to our conversation
Um, so before we end, I'd like to ask three questions.
One I make up just for you, and then the other two I've been asking
everybody as long as the show's been on.
Are, are you willing to do that?
Nayeema Raza: Yes, of course.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Nayeema Raza: Does that count as a question?
Matt Abrahams: That, that's a, that's a warmup.
That's a warmup.
Nayeema Raza: Don't use one of your three on that.
Matt Abrahams: Okay, I won't.
No, it's not like wishes with a genie.
Um, so, uh, to get very serious, by coincidence, the day we are
recording, uh, is the anniversary of your father's passing.
Uh, you wrote a very touching and personal article in The New
York Times about your father.
Uh, what is one lesson you wish people would take away from your,
your father's life and his wisdom?
Nayeema Raza: Uh, thank you for asking and for bringing him up and
helping me remember him on this day.
I'll give you two.
One is from my dad, and one is from what I've learned from, from
the experience of losing him.
I think the, the lesson I learned from my dad really was to, uh,
to be present and to not let the other, may I swear for a second?
Matt Abrahams: You can.
Nayeema Raza: The other shit get in the way.
He, my dad, was the kind of guy who never held a grudge.
Literally, somebody would be upset with him and not wanting to talk to him,
and my dad would call his brother every Sunday to ask how he's doing, and,
and he would wear you down, you know?
He really didn't believe in holding a grudge because at the end of the day, he
would say, "Well, what am I gonna do? He's my brother. He's my friend," you know?
And he had that ability to, in a world where I think we're often think
we don't, we want to cut people out of our life because of how they feel
about an opinion politically, how they feel about something, how they
showed up on that random Tuesday when we had something important.
He had that ability to really hold people's slander and, and, um,
and to maintain relationships, uh, and, and give great forgiveness.
So that's what I've, I've learned.
And how I translate that lesson and think into my own life is that when you lose
someone, it's often possible to get caught up in I should have, and as your friend
said, you know, should all over yourself.
Um, and I think that because he lived that way, I've been able to, uh, release
some of the, you know, oh, I should have, you know, in the pandemic, why didn't
I go quarantine at my parents' house instead of going out with friends who,
you know, all of that kind of, of stuff.
And I've learned that you really kind of have the ability to keep people alive and
to keep having memories and meaning-making in relationships that are gone.
Matt Abrahams: That's so true.
We, we can keep the memory of people alive through how we talk about them and
the meaning we make in our own lives.
Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for being here on a tough day.
Uh, question number two, who's a communicator you admire and why?
Nayeema Raza: Oh.
You know, I think Kendrick Lamar.
Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that.
Nayeema Raza: Have people said Kendrick before on this show?
Matt Abrahams: You are the first to say Kendrick Lamar.
Nayeema Raza: I think that he's just so poetic.
His lyrics are really spot on.
They're catchy.
I think this about a lot of, like, kind of rapper-songwriters, but the ability to
poetically, succinctly, and emotionally talk about very difficult things, I think
is reflected in, in Kendrick's work.
Um, and if you, if you read it, like, I mean, he's kind of like Chekhov, you know?
Like, if you read it, you find it extremely deep and meaningful.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And, and a lot of people don't think about the communicative power of that genre.
And, and I appreciate you highlighting that.
Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a
successful communication recipe?
Nayeema Raza: I love that.
Um, you know I'm gonna say it's on brand, but number one, curiosity.
Um, number two, chemistry.
Being able to cultivate, create, and, and, um, create that chemistry with, through
pauses, through play, through jokes, through language, all the ways that you
can kind of make sure that communication is, you know, at least two-way, if not
an intellectual throuple or beyond.
Um, and number three, I'm gonna say a sense of what's not in the room, a sense
of what's missing, so that you can expand a conversation, a communication, so that
you can leave a conversation and think about how to take it beyond this world
and, and just can be more aware, I think.
Matt Abrahams: That last point about awareness about what's not present
really allows for conversation and communication to expand and extend,
and I, I think that's really powerful.
And I, I appreciate the notion of chemistry, connection, building
that, having that as intention and, and of course, curiosity.
Well, thank you for your time and for, uh, being so forthright and open and
sharing with us how we can all be better translators and more curious in our lives.
I appreciate your time.
Nayeema Raza: Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
I've, you know, I love your show, and I love the work that you
do, and I love how global it is.
I just want to say you are reaching people all over the world who this is
a global challenge, and you are doing a great job of helping people succeed
in their own languages, in English, and just in everything they do, so thank you.
Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you.
Best of luck to you as well.
Nayeema Raza: Thanks.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To hear more interesting and insightful episodes like this one, be sure to check
out our back catalog of episodes in your favorite player or at fastersmarter.io.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is by Floyd Wonder.
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