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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

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have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

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got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

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How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

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and most importantly, find joy.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Welcome back to live free ride free.

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Today I've got Someone who if you open
the dictionary and you look at self

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actualized you're going to find a picture
of ginny jordan she really ought to be

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in the oxford dictionary Ginny Jordan is
someone I've been privileged to know for

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quite a few years, and those of you who
know my work with Horseboy Movement Method

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and those therapeutic approaches that we
do, I can say that they wouldn't exist

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without the influence of Ginny Jordan.

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But I'm not the only one.

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I would say that of the people I
know who have had a positive effect

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upon the planet and our species and
other species associated with us.

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I don't really know anyone who
has done more than Jeannie Jordan.

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She's many things.

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She has been and still is a film
producer, very cutting edge films that

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you may know, which we'll talk about
later, all of which have served a

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social purpose, but have also been just
jolly good films in their own right.

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She has had it Founded and
headed an amazing initiative

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for first women in Africa.

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And then I think it's gone beyond
that with HIV to, to micro fund

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to set up businesses, which I know
has gone bananas in the world.

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She is involved with regenerative farming.

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She's involved with feminism.

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She's involved with healing.

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She is a healer.

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And.

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Maybe actually it's not
so much self actualized.

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I'm just looking at the dictionary
now under the word awesome.

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And look, there's another
picture of Ginny Jordan.

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So Ginny.

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Ginny Jordan: Oh, well, in the
moment I'm completely delighted,

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amused and enjoying being here.

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So thanks for having me.

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Who I am, I, wow, I think you said
a lot, I'm a multidimensional being

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and, you know, if you tie me down in a
room, I'm an unhappy, unhappy person.

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I, I need to manifest, I need to express.

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Since I was little there was a deep,
just inherent call to give myself to

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the world in any ways that I could find
that felt true and honest and felt would

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actually, you know, Actually serve.

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So, who am I?

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Someone that cares, cares deeply.

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I

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mean, almost to the point of tears.

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Most of the time it's like my heart is
just constantly full of depth of caring

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for who we are as a species, where we're
headed, where we're seen to be not headed.

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But it's just an impossibility
for me to turn away.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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So you have manifested
so much for so many.

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We're going to go into that, all
the extraordinary things that

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you've done and are still doing.

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I want to ask you to take us back to
that moment when you were a little girl

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and you said you felt that calling.

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Do you remember that moment?

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How, what, can you take us there?

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Ginny Jordan: Well, I think there
were kind of two distinct moments

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that come up the first, which I
haven't talked about in a long time.

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I was probably 6 or 7 and I woke
up in the middle of the night.

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What apparently felt like a nightmare,
but it was a shocking wasn't really

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a nightmare content and dreams.

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It was just I had a revelation
at night and I woke up with this.

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Deep, profound heavy feeling that
there had to be more than life than

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the scripts that we were given.

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You're supposed to grow up.

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You're supposed to get married.

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You're supposed to kind of have children.

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Then you're supposed to do this.

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You're supposed to do that.

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And then it's over, you know, well done.

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Or you could.

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Maybe, maybe there are three
scripts, but I, I saw through sort

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of the nature of existence, if
you will, in a moment, in a flash.

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And I knew there had to be more.

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I knew there was some other mysterious
thing going on that was much larger

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than this linear content that seemed
to be already laid out in front of me.

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And I went into pretty deep depression.

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I tried to talk to my mother about
it, and she just thought I was dead.

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That's thoroughly crazy.

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What's a seven year old thinking about
such big arcs of future, but I was, and

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that was a real awakening moment and
it kind of an insistence and a contract

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that I signed that there has to be
something more to this existence than

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just certainly going through the motions.

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But I didn't know what it was, but
I signed a contract to find out.

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Rupert Isaacson: You said
there were two moments, right?

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So that was one.

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Ginny Jordan: The second one was I.

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I would get on the school bus and I
would pretended that I had a wand.

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This is sort of embarrassing,
but I had a wand.

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And anytime I saw what looked like a, a
suffering or suddenly I would see a, a tow

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truck carrying a car and, oh my goodness,
that probably involved an accident, you

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know, and I'm like secretly blessing.

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As though I have that power as a little
one that I could bless, you know,

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those who might be injured or hurt
or that I could see out the window.

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And I often would kind of put
the, the wand under imagined one.

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I didn't have a real wand under my
pillow at night, you know, and feel felt

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prepared in the morning to, to bless
and I have no idea where that came from.

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It's not like, not like I had a
parent modeling that, but there

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was a deep, you know, that's when
I began ever so slowly to wake up

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to the, just the fact that I cared.

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And not that everybody should have that
particular destiny, but it was very clear.

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It's like, wow, I really cared about that
person who was on the sidewalk limping.

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I really cared about what
something that might have looked

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marginalized or different.

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Rupert Isaacson: Where
were you on a school bus?

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What part of America?

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Ginny Jordan: I grew up in Ohio in
a very small town outside of Toledo,

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Ohio, fairly rural existence on a river.

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My parents were at this
point quite involved in

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environmental conservation work.

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So they modeled love of land
and care for the earth for me.

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I got to sort of live and breathe that
without really knowing what was happening.

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Why did they do that?

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I think it was rooted, my mother was
involved in the Nature Conservancy

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from almost its inception.

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And for many years was on the national
board, like 30 years of her life.

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And I think it came from, you know, their
love of the solitude that they found

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when they were in the natural world.

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They were also hunters, fisher,
fishermen, women and love land.

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And I, I'm not sure where
I could tell you where that

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actually, when I look to the next

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Rupert Isaacson: generation in the family
that they were, they fished, they hunted,

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they did duck shooting and wanted to
conserve the marshes, that sort of thing.

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Ginny Jordan: Yeah, the very
beginning of Nature Conservancy was

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about that just kind of course it
evolved, you know, and needed to,

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Rupert Isaacson: what were they doing?

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What was their, what was their profession?

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Ginny Jordan: My father
was a real entrepreneur.

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He bought sort of a bankrupt business
and got a loan from his father and,

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you know, built it into a very, very
successful manufacturing company.

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He manufactured doors, front entry
doors, and he was very intuitive.

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And he anticipated sort of the energy
crisis in the 60s and he'd already

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designed a, a wood door that looked,
a fiberglass door that looked like

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wood, that was highly energy efficient.

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So he had a kind of remarkable
talent of sort of forecasting.

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Rupert Isaacson: So you're,
so he was a manifester.

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Ginny Jordan: Definitely.

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Rupert Isaacson: And your mother was some,
a carer of the land, also your father.

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Ginny Jordan: And also a big manifester
and a leader and a leader in that.

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Rupert Isaacson: And yet, when you came
to your mum as a six, seven year old with

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this revelation, instead of going, well,
you're clearly, you know, following in

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the footsteps of all the wise women, you
know, well done, well done for showing up.

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And now we begin your priestess training.

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She rolled her eyes, given that
she was a manifester and a caravan.

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Why do you think she had that reaction?

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Ginny Jordan: I think it, you
know, just, you know, imagine that

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generation's, you know, sort of
fixation on pretty limited scripts.

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What

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Rupert Isaacson: year would you say?

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Ginny Jordan: Well, I was born in
53, so this was probably, and I was

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maybe 7, 8, something like that.

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Rupert Isaacson: So about 1958,
9, 60, somewhere in there.

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Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

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I think, you know, it was a radical idea.

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That maybe, maybe these scripts
are fundamentally limited and you

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know, who said that we should sort
of fulfill it as it's laid out

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sort of traditionally, culturally.

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And I think that was just
a little over their heads.

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I also, I also think that I was speaking
to some mystery of life that was much

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larger and I don't think it certainly
was not a religious orientation

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because they didn't have that.

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But.

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I think I, I had a sort of a deep
spiritual kind of knowing that

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they didn't understand at all.

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Rupert Isaacson: Did, did,
when she had that reaction to

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you, what was your reaction?

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Ginny Jordan: Oh, I shut down.

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Rupert Isaacson: But you didn't,
it didn't shut you down from using

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your magic wand on the school bus?

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Ginny Jordan: No, didn't.

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But you know, that's kind
of like a secret activity.

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Right.

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No one really knows I have a magic wand.

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Rupert Isaacson: I know you have a
magic wand and I've been watching you

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Ginny Jordan: for

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Rupert Isaacson: 25 years.

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We're going to go into that.

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And it's really interesting to me.

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I've often wondered where your shamanic
ability to manifest extraordinary things

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on an extraordinary scale came from.

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And you telling me that story
in all the years I've known

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you, I haven't known that.

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I think it should be on
the school curriculum.

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I think that as soon as you get
on the school bus, they should

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give you your What Magic Wand.

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Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.

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Rupert Isaacson: Here is how you use
it and here is how you do not use it.

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Can you imagine?

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Ginny Jordan: It'd be amazing.

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Rupert Isaacson: How
different the world would

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Ginny Jordan: look.

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: Every
kid riding the school bus.

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Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

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And I certainly felt, you know,
sort of secretly powerful.

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Not not as, you know, dominant,
of course, you know, I'm young

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but more than I, wow, I could have
an influence of my little wand.

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I could help heal someone.

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I couldn't help them feel better.

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I could, I could make sense out
of some things that didn't make

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sense, you know, bring order.

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Rupert Isaacson: There's no question.

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You've been doing that ever since.

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Yeah, I'm going to talk
to you later about this.

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I think it should be a whole curriculum.

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I think this is something I'd
really like to pursue in the

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work we do in schools and stuff.

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This is genius.

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So perhaps we could have
that conversation, I think.

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We need to give all these kids magic ones.

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So now you, you blow my
mind with your magic wand.

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Okay.

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So now, but I have to retrieve my mind.

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Otherwise there will be no podcast.

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Take us to the next thing.

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Okay.

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You, now you go from little girl.

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Beginning to do her first imagining
harnessing her imagination into

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manifestation in a way that is through
caring really compassion at what point

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do you begin to put that into action?

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Tell us about your college years
Where did you go to college?

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How was that?

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What year what years were those?

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Ginny Jordan: Oh, I'm terrible.

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Just don't even go there It's
like I don't I can't let my

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Rupert Isaacson: degree so

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Ginny Jordan: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Well, I, I went to boarding school,
which was utterly a disaster.

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It was like putting the wrong being
in the wrong context with all girls.

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I grew up with 4 brothers and that was.

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It's strange and heartbreaking and
I knew back to this original story.

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I just told you that somehow
that cultural layout, which I was

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supposed to go to boarding school.

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Then I went supposed to go
to Vassar where my mom went.

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My brother's supposed to go to Yale where
he went and then I'm going to marry.

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You know, some amazing, you know,
businessmen, and I'm going to be

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president of the junior league someday.

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And it was all sort of scripted.

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And so I ended up after boarding school,
I went to a very, very radical, extreme

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experimental college in California,

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Rupert Isaacson: presumably by your own
design, not by your mother's design.

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Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

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And, and a bit of a synchronistic
happening on the shores of Crete in

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Greece when When I, I was 19, I kind
of did the big walk about the big

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adventure and I sat on the beach and a
little tiny part of the island that you

00:13:54.594 --> 00:13:56.984
could only get in by donkey called Vi.

00:13:57.404 --> 00:14:01.784
And I lived on the beach, kind of did
the sort of hippie thing and a man

00:14:02.534 --> 00:14:05.984
came up to me and said, did you hear
about this amazing experimental school?

00:14:05.984 --> 00:14:09.974
That's starting some professors
from Harvard or whatever,

00:14:09.974 --> 00:14:10.714
you know, sort of big.

00:14:11.674 --> 00:14:15.914
Mucky Mucky's coasts have had it and
they want to start this experiment

00:14:15.924 --> 00:14:19.574
in Southern California using the
facilities, the University of Redlands,

00:14:19.584 --> 00:14:21.004
it was called Johnston College.

00:14:21.014 --> 00:14:24.694
And, you know, it was one of those
moments that we have in a life

00:14:24.704 --> 00:14:26.144
where there was just a recognition.

00:14:26.144 --> 00:14:27.844
I went, Oh, that's for me.

00:14:28.784 --> 00:14:34.564
And I checked it out and, and I went, and
that was seminal in my, in my biography.

00:14:35.209 --> 00:14:39.569
I experimented with so many things
and as we did as a group, we literally

00:14:39.939 --> 00:14:42.639
were 200 students that, like, made up.

00:14:42.979 --> 00:14:47.739
We were collective creators
of this, of this experiment.

00:14:48.949 --> 00:14:53.339
And I, I studied extraordinary
things with extraordinary faculty

00:14:53.339 --> 00:14:57.379
and made up my own degree and I was.

00:14:58.774 --> 00:15:01.024
A pivot a pivot moment.

00:15:01.724 --> 00:15:01.974
What did you

00:15:02.564 --> 00:15:03.424
Rupert Isaacson: what did you study?

00:15:04.484 --> 00:15:09.484
Ginny Jordan: Mostly well, many things,
but I, my degree was in psychology.

00:15:09.484 --> 00:15:12.624
I can't even remember the
title that I, but it had to

00:15:12.624 --> 00:15:14.304
do with the integrated child.

00:15:14.974 --> 00:15:17.304
I did a lot of work with
children at the time.

00:15:17.884 --> 00:15:20.984
And, I can't remember the title
of it, but it was psychology.

00:15:21.514 --> 00:15:23.464
Rupert Isaacson: I love the fact that you
can't remember the title of your degree.

00:15:23.954 --> 00:15:24.134
That's perfect.

00:15:24.804 --> 00:15:27.734
But what would you say when
you said we experimented,

00:15:27.734 --> 00:15:28.734
what did you experiment with?

00:15:31.014 --> 00:15:32.934
Ginny Jordan: Everything, you
know, this was in the early days,

00:15:32.934 --> 00:15:34.404
the human potential movement.

00:15:34.444 --> 00:15:38.224
So, you know, we were pounding
pillows and saying, fuck you out

00:15:38.224 --> 00:15:40.084
the windows to our moms and dads.

00:15:40.084 --> 00:15:43.154
And, you know, it's like heavy
duty therapy, but it was all

00:15:43.154 --> 00:15:44.794
about sort of self discovery.

00:15:45.214 --> 00:15:49.290
I studied the Stolt Therapy Institute
in Los Angeles with the greats of the

00:15:49.290 --> 00:15:51.544
greats, Fritz Perls, all his proteges.

00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:56.369
You know, get, I got rolfed at 19
years old and you get credit for that.

00:15:56.369 --> 00:15:58.979
You know, it was like a lot
of it was just experimenting.

00:15:58.979 --> 00:16:04.769
We worked with Jean Houston, studied
myth extensively and actually

00:16:04.769 --> 00:16:06.879
went through a course with her.

00:16:06.889 --> 00:16:07.319
And.

00:16:07.809 --> 00:16:11.069
Ramdass and Castaneda of all people.

00:16:11.069 --> 00:16:15.299
So some of the, some of the greats
in those days were very interested.

00:16:15.299 --> 00:16:19.579
We were, there were 12 of us that
were graduating in the person in the

00:16:19.579 --> 00:16:25.019
transpersonal psych part of the, of the,
of the college, and they were our faculty.

00:16:25.469 --> 00:16:28.609
Rupert Isaacson: So I need to
just, just, just take a pause

00:16:28.609 --> 00:16:29.864
because a lot of our listeners.

00:16:30.694 --> 00:16:35.554
Don't know who these people were
and what some of these things are.

00:16:35.584 --> 00:16:41.594
And I think we need to talk about this
because listeners, those of you who

00:16:41.594 --> 00:16:46.104
came through the counterculture I take
off my hat because those of us like

00:16:46.104 --> 00:16:52.214
me, who as dinosaur ancient, as I am
now, I am still a generation that came.

00:16:53.324 --> 00:16:56.514
from the loins of the people of
the counterculture and I have

00:16:56.524 --> 00:16:58.574
benefited massively from it.

00:16:59.044 --> 00:17:04.904
Basically the hippies paved the way
because they knew that there was a better

00:17:04.904 --> 00:17:10.714
quality of life than a militaristic,
um, military industrial complex.

00:17:11.124 --> 00:17:14.154
And they, we, we take for granted.

00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.949
the freedoms that we have socially
now, but they were not always there.

00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:22.139
And the people that forged
that were the counterculture

00:17:22.139 --> 00:17:23.919
people of the 60s and early 70s.

00:17:24.429 --> 00:17:26.609
And obviously, Ginny, you
were very much part of this.

00:17:26.669 --> 00:17:28.139
And so were these people
you're talking about.

00:17:28.469 --> 00:17:33.669
So we owe a debt of gratitude
for our the freedoms.

00:17:34.284 --> 00:17:38.784
Not just that the the political
freedoms, but the the social and and

00:17:38.794 --> 00:17:43.144
thought freedoms that we have these
days which we take for granted Stuff

00:17:43.144 --> 00:17:44.704
that you could see on media today.

00:17:44.774 --> 00:17:49.734
It was not there before Okay, so
Gestalt therapy people will not

00:17:49.734 --> 00:17:50.874
know necessarily what that is.

00:17:50.884 --> 00:17:52.164
Even though it's a legendary thing.

00:17:52.384 --> 00:17:54.174
Please tell us What is Gestalt therapy?

00:17:56.159 --> 00:17:59.009
Ginny Jordan: Well, Fritz Perls
was the founder of very well known

00:17:59.009 --> 00:18:04.649
psychologist who really explored sort
of the human psyche in terms of parts.

00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:10.629
So, you know, we have a tyrant in us,
we have a you know, a rescuer in us,

00:18:10.629 --> 00:18:16.229
we have a victim, we have a, and in his
passion was getting into a room and just

00:18:16.239 --> 00:18:20.849
laying out all the parts and having them
all dialogue and act out and it's very,

00:18:21.404 --> 00:18:27.264
Very sort of active dynamic, almost
on the edge of theatrical expression.

00:18:27.544 --> 00:18:33.354
So it was a lot of, a lot about
kind of moving places of tension

00:18:33.984 --> 00:18:37.524
and certainly not being afraid
of those places, inviting them.

00:18:37.734 --> 00:18:42.124
So that was very much what
Gestalt is about is liberating

00:18:42.124 --> 00:18:44.744
yourself from different parts
that don't know the other parts.

00:18:44.824 --> 00:18:48.674
It's like where we're unconscious
and kind of raising to the surface.

00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:52.189
Rupert Isaacson: Gestalt is, I live
in Germany, Gestalt is a German word,

00:18:52.189 --> 00:18:55.779
it means patent or complete, right?

00:18:55.999 --> 00:18:58.019
So, greater than the sum
of its parts, I guess.

00:18:58.049 --> 00:19:01.739
So, are you saying it's an
integration of all of those?

00:19:02.194 --> 00:19:02.524
Right.

00:19:02.624 --> 00:19:05.964
Size of oneself and sort of recognition
of all of those sides of oneself

00:19:06.284 --> 00:19:07.814
to kind of get self knowledge.

00:19:08.944 --> 00:19:09.104
Ginny Jordan: Yep.

00:19:09.164 --> 00:19:09.774
Exactly.

00:19:09.774 --> 00:19:10.364
Well said.

00:19:10.584 --> 00:19:10.944
Yep.

00:19:11.184 --> 00:19:15.004
And not done through kind of just
talk therapy sitting, you know, one on

00:19:15.004 --> 00:19:17.054
one often it was done in group work.

00:19:17.424 --> 00:19:24.744
And so that when you witnessed somebody
else's, you know, extremely violent father

00:19:24.744 --> 00:19:27.724
and the suffering that, that, that person.

00:19:28.454 --> 00:19:33.554
Went through, you know, the idea is also
that it, it mirrored something for you.

00:19:33.554 --> 00:19:39.524
It's like the work was for everybody was
just sitting in a little cubicle and that,

00:19:39.534 --> 00:19:41.514
that was part of its power at the time.

00:19:42.344 --> 00:19:45.904
And it's still, it's still alive and
live and well, it's nothing like it

00:19:45.904 --> 00:19:48.774
was in our day to your point, right?

00:19:48.784 --> 00:19:52.884
It was the human potential
movement was just, just on fire.

00:19:52.884 --> 00:19:55.864
And we were passionate about
discovering who we really were.

00:19:56.459 --> 00:20:02.009
And determined to remove any blocks
that particularly that were scripted

00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:04.749
things that, you know, back to this
feeling that we were pushing off a

00:20:04.749 --> 00:20:06.659
generation of a lot of authority.

00:20:08.209 --> 00:20:09.939
Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned
someone called Jean Houston.

00:20:10.609 --> 00:20:11.079
Who is she?

00:20:12.769 --> 00:20:17.309
Ginny Jordan: She's sort of queen of,
you know, Mythic reality and explored

00:20:17.309 --> 00:20:23.729
it in in, in so many dimensions she's
a storyteller kind of a mythic wonder

00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:27.709
could, could really look at what
we, what we would call an archetype.

00:20:28.309 --> 00:20:31.729
And unpack it in the most
creative and deliberate way.

00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.689
She, we went through a
year long course with her.

00:20:35.689 --> 00:20:41.159
That was called mind games where she was
really fascinated in exploring what can

00:20:41.159 --> 00:20:46.159
happen in a group process again, kind
of a group focus and a lot of it had

00:20:46.159 --> 00:20:48.729
to do with developing certain kinds of.

00:20:49.504 --> 00:20:55.044
Psychic capacity, certain capacities for
attunement for group mind literally some

00:20:55.044 --> 00:20:59.644
people would be in the middle middle
of the room and they would facilitate

00:20:59.644 --> 00:21:01.454
a process where they go into a trance.

00:21:02.034 --> 00:21:06.874
And I mean, it was pretty wild stuff
we were playing with, but she's really

00:21:06.914 --> 00:21:12.244
an extraordinary mythic scholar and
anybody who hasn't heard of her should

00:21:12.254 --> 00:21:17.414
definitely look into she's written many,
many, many books and is quite a force.

00:21:19.024 --> 00:21:21.144
Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned
Ram Dass, who's Ram Dass?

00:21:23.674 --> 00:21:26.054
Ginny Jordan: Very well known
spiritual teacher of the time.

00:21:26.464 --> 00:21:31.254
I have think he passed about, I
don't know, 5, 5 or so years ago.

00:21:31.794 --> 00:21:34.634
A Harvard dropout psychedelic guy.

00:21:34.644 --> 00:21:36.404
That was absolutely.

00:21:36.404 --> 00:21:39.074
I mean, he has real
awakening happening in India.

00:21:39.604 --> 00:21:45.184
And with it, with his, with a guru,
very, very funny, very inspiring

00:21:45.434 --> 00:21:50.534
wickedly bright and had a wonderful
way of charismatic leader, a wonderful

00:21:50.534 --> 00:21:56.954
way of sort of people helping people
re remember who they really kind of

00:21:57.134 --> 00:22:02.624
are, which essentially beans of beans
of light is how he would talk about it.

00:22:02.634 --> 00:22:05.634
And so it was a very
devotional path with him.

00:22:06.164 --> 00:22:07.534
Rupert Isaacson: What
was he teaching you guys?

00:22:07.534 --> 00:22:08.564
Yeah, specifically.

00:22:09.934 --> 00:22:13.314
Ginny Jordan: I think he was teaching
us really about you know, again, through

00:22:13.314 --> 00:22:16.974
a lot of his works, he, I mean, he was
most known for a book called be here now.

00:22:17.764 --> 00:22:20.354
You know, at the time that was
kind of a revelatory concept.

00:22:20.354 --> 00:22:24.744
It's like, it's called being present,
you know, now it's sort of old hat.

00:22:24.844 --> 00:22:26.324
Rupert Isaacson: Well, this
present moment mindfulness

00:22:26.324 --> 00:22:27.424
shit that we hear all the time.

00:22:27.444 --> 00:22:28.774
It actually did begin somewhere.

00:22:28.874 --> 00:22:29.114
Yes.

00:22:29.114 --> 00:22:30.884
Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.

00:22:30.884 --> 00:22:31.124
Absolutely.

00:22:31.124 --> 00:22:31.744
It was radical

00:22:31.744 --> 00:22:32.454
Rupert Isaacson: at the time.

00:22:32.494 --> 00:22:32.744
Yeah.

00:22:33.134 --> 00:22:33.904
Ginny Jordan: Be here now.

00:22:33.974 --> 00:22:37.574
And that was what he's
kind of most known for.

00:22:37.584 --> 00:22:43.264
And But I think he added the heart
piece, you know, so, you know, we were

00:22:43.264 --> 00:22:45.184
pushing off a lot of that generation.

00:22:45.184 --> 00:22:47.644
We're certainly pushing off the
Vietnam war, you know, there's a

00:22:47.644 --> 00:22:53.314
lot of pushing and kind of fire and
insistence on expressing ourselves and

00:22:54.294 --> 00:22:54.614
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

00:22:54.984 --> 00:22:57.294
Ginny Jordan: you can get all
those images of, you know, sort of

00:22:57.314 --> 00:22:59.724
anti war protests and blah, blah.

00:22:59.864 --> 00:23:03.614
But he added the heart
and, you know, he was,

00:23:04.024 --> 00:23:06.374
Rupert Isaacson: he's saying, you've got
to be compassionate towards those who

00:23:06.384 --> 00:23:09.444
you are causing the suffering that is.

00:23:10.274 --> 00:23:14.144
Ginny Jordan: I think he definitely,
but, you know, he was a, he was a

00:23:14.144 --> 00:23:20.154
devotional devotee to his, his version
of, of, of God, so to speak, which

00:23:20.154 --> 00:23:24.964
was a deep spiritual calling for him
that, you know, mother India is most

00:23:24.964 --> 00:23:29.264
known for, and that's where he had his
1st awakening and then determination

00:23:29.274 --> 00:23:31.114
to translate that into Western terms.

00:23:32.054 --> 00:23:34.444
And as I said, humor,
humor was 1 of his best.

00:23:34.974 --> 00:23:37.194
Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humour,
can I tell you my, my Ram Dass story?

00:23:37.694 --> 00:23:38.564
Ginny Jordan: Yes, please do.

00:23:38.564 --> 00:23:39.154
I have a Ram Dass

00:23:39.224 --> 00:23:39.554
Rupert Isaacson: story.

00:23:39.854 --> 00:23:44.034
I never met Ram Dass, but I did go
once to a reading of things by Ram

00:23:44.034 --> 00:23:49.084
Dass between from Be Here Now, and
I went to the toilet and someone had

00:23:49.364 --> 00:23:53.614
taped on the urinal, pee here now.

00:23:54.274 --> 00:23:54.714
Ginny Jordan: Perfect.

00:23:55.014 --> 00:23:56.714
Be present when you're peeing.

00:23:56.894 --> 00:23:59.054
Make sure you get it in the toilet.

00:23:59.114 --> 00:24:00.494
That's perfect.

00:24:01.624 --> 00:24:03.214
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt
men need a reminding of that.

00:24:03.944 --> 00:24:04.584
Ginny Jordan: Always.

00:24:05.054 --> 00:24:05.654
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:24:05.664 --> 00:24:07.294
You mentioned another name.

00:24:08.124 --> 00:24:11.624
And by the way, listeners, it's
important that you know this because

00:24:11.624 --> 00:24:12.764
these people are all legends.

00:24:13.534 --> 00:24:13.804
Yeah.

00:24:14.224 --> 00:24:15.724
We're talking about mentorship here.

00:24:16.204 --> 00:24:19.424
To be mentored by some of these
people, Somewhat extraordinary.

00:24:19.424 --> 00:24:21.144
I didn't know you were
mentored by these people.

00:24:21.344 --> 00:24:24.974
You mentioned Castaneda, Carlos Castaneda.

00:24:25.184 --> 00:24:28.264
For those of you who do not
know who Carlos Castaneda

00:24:28.274 --> 00:24:29.714
was, Ginny, please tell us.

00:24:31.354 --> 00:24:33.184
Ginny Jordan: Well, I, you know who he is.

00:24:33.704 --> 00:24:35.174
Rupert Isaacson: Certainly,
but not every listener will.

00:24:35.764 --> 00:24:38.804
Ginny Jordan: No, but I'd love
to hear how you would frame him.

00:24:39.534 --> 00:24:42.734
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
well, that's a bit unfair.

00:24:42.744 --> 00:24:44.584
I'm the one, I ask the questions here.

00:24:45.204 --> 00:24:48.654
Ginny Jordan: But I'm interested in
how your generation would, that I met.

00:24:49.194 --> 00:24:49.684
When I was,

00:24:49.684 --> 00:24:53.274
Rupert Isaacson: when I was a
school boy Carlos Castaneda and

00:24:53.524 --> 00:24:55.024
my school boy, I'm in London.

00:24:55.044 --> 00:24:57.854
I'm a a very traditional
conservative boys.

00:24:59.219 --> 00:25:01.499
school, which is also part of
the military, blah, blah, blah.

00:25:01.919 --> 00:25:04.749
And I was the last generation
of boys to be regularly beaten

00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:05.709
at school, that sort of thing.

00:25:05.709 --> 00:25:07.999
You know, it was, it was
the old Victorian model.

00:25:08.349 --> 00:25:12.469
And so Carlos Castaneda was one of the
influencers that came in for rebellion.

00:25:12.989 --> 00:25:19.079
And Carlos Castaneda was a an American
who went down to Mexico and wrote a

00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.809
series of books about interactions
with a Huishol Indian shaman.

00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:23.739
Or was he?

00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:24.529
No, he wasn't Huishol.

00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:27.679
He was, um, what's the tribe next to them?

00:25:27.679 --> 00:25:28.939
Or was he Huishol?

00:25:29.149 --> 00:25:30.669
Anyway, from, from that.

00:25:30.879 --> 00:25:31.929
Ginny Jordan: He went Don Juan.

00:25:32.179 --> 00:25:32.859
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, Don Juan.

00:25:33.139 --> 00:25:36.519
And for those of you, the Huishols are the
ones who do these amazing color patterns.

00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:38.729
And they're known for their
relationship with the Huishol.

00:25:39.049 --> 00:25:43.629
Peyote, which is a hallucinogenic
substance and peeling medicine in

00:25:43.639 --> 00:25:47.759
use for thousands of years and still
in use in Native America today.

00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:51.969
But it grows in their area and it grows
in a very small area on the Mexican

00:25:52.299 --> 00:25:55.209
Texas border and Arizona, Texas border.

00:25:55.289 --> 00:26:00.859
And so he wrote a series of books
about being in apprenticeship to this

00:26:00.899 --> 00:26:03.729
one and being taken on an ever more.

00:26:04.924 --> 00:26:09.764
sort of ego destroying series of
terrifying hallucinogenic journeys.

00:26:10.979 --> 00:26:15.709
that were extremely influential
both as anthropology and as just

00:26:15.719 --> 00:26:17.979
flat out entertaining writing
and the spiritual writing.

00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.099
However, there is of course
a controversy around him.

00:26:22.529 --> 00:26:25.829
Many people say he didn't actually,
he made it all up and then he ended

00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:29.559
up with a bit of a a sort of sex cult
around him or something like that.

00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.409
And then some of those people, and
then he, after he died, some of those

00:26:32.409 --> 00:26:37.549
people disappeared and perhaps potential
foul play and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:26:37.699 --> 00:26:40.689
So he's one of these sort of
legendary characters who, you know,

00:26:40.709 --> 00:26:43.089
I look at it from my generation
and say, well, I don't know.

00:26:43.639 --> 00:26:44.769
I don't know whether he made it up.

00:26:44.769 --> 00:26:46.469
I don't know whether he went, I
don't know this, I don't know that.

00:26:46.919 --> 00:26:51.334
But what I do know is that the
books were extremely influential.

00:26:51.424 --> 00:26:56.454
And for those of us who were sort of
suffering in that Victorian model,

00:26:56.714 --> 00:27:01.274
they served as a window on the
potential of what life could look like.

00:27:02.284 --> 00:27:04.264
And the potential of human consciousness.

00:27:04.554 --> 00:27:07.634
That's about all I have to say on
Carlos Castaneda, but you know,

00:27:07.674 --> 00:27:08.824
knew the man, you met the man.

00:27:08.824 --> 00:27:10.134
What, what do you have to say about that?

00:27:11.714 --> 00:27:14.144
Ginny Jordan: Well, yeah, I
understand the controversy.

00:27:14.524 --> 00:27:19.324
Ultimately, it doesn't matter because
if this was an invention and just

00:27:19.324 --> 00:27:21.424
imagination is pretty brilliant.

00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:27.469
Imagination because the, what it set
up to your point is this power, the

00:27:27.469 --> 00:27:31.879
power of mentorship, of letting, you
know, he, he had to go through all

00:27:31.879 --> 00:27:35.219
of his Western white control, right.

00:27:35.229 --> 00:27:39.699
To, to let go and to be led by
this man, not only just through,

00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:44.699
you know, taking plant medicine,
but you know, crazy trials.

00:27:44.709 --> 00:27:49.919
He put him through, it's like 40 days in
the desert kind of trials coyote kind of.

00:27:50.249 --> 00:27:54.379
Operations right where suddenly
he's, you know, and he was pushed.

00:27:54.379 --> 00:27:56.989
It's like a version of
an outward bound course.

00:27:57.139 --> 00:28:05.249
And every time he went to see him and so
much of the books and the inspiration are,

00:28:05.569 --> 00:28:07.459
you know, what it is to let go like that.

00:28:08.459 --> 00:28:13.949
To someone that again, true or false made
up or not irrelevant, it's an amazing

00:28:13.959 --> 00:28:20.959
archetype of what it is to actually break
through our kind of cultural addictions.

00:28:21.939 --> 00:28:22.419
Two.

00:28:22.829 --> 00:28:28.989
To be able to sense life, to open our
senses to other realities that, you

00:28:28.989 --> 00:28:34.709
know, for many indigenous peoples in
the world are, are, are preexisting.

00:28:34.709 --> 00:28:37.259
There's no need to convince
they're operating in an entirely

00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.729
different kind of room in the
house, so to speak, than we are.

00:28:41.129 --> 00:28:44.129
And that that's, was the
revelation of the books.

00:28:44.159 --> 00:28:47.039
And he was kind of a mixed character.

00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.169
He was actually quite shy.

00:28:50.379 --> 00:28:53.369
And when he would come to teach, you
know, we would all just be, you know,

00:28:53.379 --> 00:28:57.509
be kind of like rabidly trying to pull
stuff out of him, you know, it's all

00:28:57.529 --> 00:29:01.409
such an intriguing story and he, you
know, would offer things, but he was

00:29:01.419 --> 00:29:04.639
very within himself, quite shy actually.

00:29:05.149 --> 00:29:10.439
And didn't have a big need, you know,
he was almost self effacing, almost

00:29:10.439 --> 00:29:12.069
to the point of being self effacing.

00:29:12.169 --> 00:29:17.054
He didn't have a big need to like, Blow
his horn and say, Oh, my God, I'm amazing.

00:29:17.064 --> 00:29:20.204
It was like, I felt a
natural humility in him.

00:29:21.134 --> 00:29:25.844
So, for whatever that's worth, as I said,
you know, I was young and maybe not the

00:29:25.844 --> 00:29:32.294
full capacity to read character, but a
key figure for a young woman, for sure.

00:29:32.484 --> 00:29:35.164
Rupert Isaacson: I think, yeah, what
the point is that he, he was also a

00:29:35.164 --> 00:29:38.654
key figure in the counter, counter
culture of opening people's minds to

00:29:39.694 --> 00:29:41.444
the power of indigenous myth as well.

00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:48.709
What you just described to me from, you
know, that waking up to the school bus.

00:29:49.324 --> 00:29:53.854
With the magic wand to, I love that you
put the wand under your pillow at night.

00:29:54.104 --> 00:29:54.634
I love that.

00:29:55.354 --> 00:30:00.384
To then this new radical
counterculture college is it's

00:30:01.154 --> 00:30:04.544
basically sounds like Hermione
Granger from the Harry Potter series.

00:30:05.074 --> 00:30:08.304
Realizing her magical potential, even
though she's, you know, I can't remember

00:30:08.304 --> 00:30:09.894
she's a muggle half muggle as well.

00:30:10.234 --> 00:30:14.604
And and then being sent off to Hogwarts
to learn the workings of magic.

00:30:14.654 --> 00:30:17.824
And I think what, what you've talked
about, we're going to go on to the

00:30:17.864 --> 00:30:21.164
actual things you've done in your life,
which are mind blowing in a moment.

00:30:21.574 --> 00:30:23.614
But It seems that you

00:30:26.384 --> 00:30:34.054
awoke to intrinsically, but then were
also, had it nurtured and mentored.

00:30:35.214 --> 00:30:38.134
If nothing else, the power
of the human imagination.

00:30:39.554 --> 00:30:44.184
And the more, the older I get, the
more convinced I am that this is

00:30:44.184 --> 00:30:45.564
the most powerful tool we have.

00:30:45.564 --> 00:30:51.104
And this is the thing that really
renders us who we are in terms of

00:30:51.104 --> 00:30:55.814
this ridiculous power that we wield
as a species, for good or ill.

00:30:56.304 --> 00:30:57.864
Luckily, mostly I think for good.

00:30:57.864 --> 00:31:03.694
I think the story you've just sort
of told of the crucible in which that

00:31:03.694 --> 00:31:09.164
imagination can be, can awake, and
then I think, I think it does actually

00:31:09.164 --> 00:31:14.004
awaken most children spontaneously, you
know, my, my, because that's who we are.

00:31:14.024 --> 00:31:17.204
My earliest memories of walking in
my parents garden in London with

00:31:17.334 --> 00:31:18.794
the sun shining on a brick wall.

00:31:18.974 --> 00:31:22.284
It's very early in the morning, because,
and it's warm, it's a summer morning.

00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:25.839
And i'm up early than earlier than all
the adults and the adults don't want

00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:29.729
to be woken up So i'm in the garden
and there's bees buzzing on the little

00:31:29.739 --> 00:31:34.479
flowers that are growing out of the wall
And in the in those bees and in those

00:31:34.479 --> 00:31:38.489
flowers I hear that I hear god and god
talks to me and god doesn't give me

00:31:38.489 --> 00:31:44.659
any revelations god's just like this
Nurturing figure almost I can almost feel

00:31:44.669 --> 00:31:49.079
the hand on my shoulder as i'm walking
and just reassuring And I think that

00:31:49.289 --> 00:31:54.204
almost every child on the planet You
Has this as their birthright, and then

00:31:55.924 --> 00:32:02.164
many, many, many children go through
something like that imaginary wand thing.

00:32:03.419 --> 00:32:08.249
And then it's sort of slapped
out of them or, or, or even

00:32:08.249 --> 00:32:09.509
just conditioned out of them.

00:32:10.139 --> 00:32:14.879
And now more than ever through, you
know, social media and things like that,

00:32:15.089 --> 00:32:19.929
the non interaction with the physical
world, the animal world, the human world.

00:32:20.229 --> 00:32:22.769
And now with screens, which of
course themselves are a product

00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:25.879
of the human imagination and
themselves can be wonderful things.

00:32:27.379 --> 00:32:29.099
But obviously can also be limiting things.

00:32:29.179 --> 00:32:31.489
So it is easy.

00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.239
We can see that that power has
unleashed itself in an unlimited

00:32:35.239 --> 00:32:39.019
way and then comes with its own
limitations and each generation has

00:32:39.019 --> 00:32:40.379
to come to their own terms with this.

00:32:40.989 --> 00:32:46.989
But I love that you had that
and remember that so clearly.

00:32:47.539 --> 00:32:49.819
Alright, so now you've been
mentored by these legends.

00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:50.959
These guys are all legends.

00:32:52.209 --> 00:32:54.349
And then you graduate,
you go out into the world.

00:32:54.379 --> 00:32:54.899
What do you do?

00:32:54.929 --> 00:32:56.559
What's the first thing you do
when you get out of college?

00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.649
Ginny Jordan: Well, I really
thought I knew something.

00:33:00.689 --> 00:33:03.779
So it was kind of total act
of arrogance that I went up to

00:33:03.789 --> 00:33:05.859
Northern California and started.

00:33:06.354 --> 00:33:10.059
Training psychiatrists and
psychologists and they, to you,

00:33:10.744 --> 00:33:12.919
Rupert Isaacson: I really thought
at 12 or whatever you were that was,

00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:16.839
Ginny Jordan: yeah, I really thought I
knew something and and that, you know,

00:33:17.109 --> 00:33:20.619
thank goodness, you know, my version
of, you know, God speaking to me said,

00:33:20.619 --> 00:33:24.599
you know, after a few years of this, you
know, I could really feel where it was.

00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:26.849
I was kind of winging it from the inside.

00:33:27.274 --> 00:33:29.494
And yes, I was bright.

00:33:29.494 --> 00:33:34.184
I had things to offer, but it really
was not in the depth of my experience.

00:33:34.244 --> 00:33:38.914
And I just, at some point I knew
that and that came to an end.

00:33:39.404 --> 00:33:43.284
And I, and I knew I always wanted to work
with people that was kind of a given.

00:33:43.664 --> 00:33:46.789
But the form of kind of coming,
emerging as this sort of.

00:33:46.919 --> 00:33:51.549
Glorious teacher who knew a bunch of
things that that needed to sort of kind

00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:56.799
of have its moment in Moment in time and
then it dissolved into something much more

00:33:57.189 --> 00:34:05.379
authentic and real which was just part of
my ongoing quest anyways, and I Then well

00:34:05.489 --> 00:34:07.269
pretty shortly after that period of time.

00:34:07.269 --> 00:34:12.314
I got married And the whole, I have had
three children and that whole journey

00:34:12.314 --> 00:34:17.094
at the same time, I continue to work
with people, but in a much more sort of.

00:34:17.564 --> 00:34:20.924
Modest way very fascinated
with dream language.

00:34:20.944 --> 00:34:25.764
That was always a big
part of my interior life.

00:34:25.764 --> 00:34:29.514
I was an active dreamer since I was
very young, a prophetic dreamer.

00:34:30.054 --> 00:34:34.034
I often dreamt things beforehand, which
was quite confusing as a little one.

00:34:34.494 --> 00:34:39.844
But I was fascinated by the
language itself of, of dreams and,

00:34:39.854 --> 00:34:42.654
you know, how it is that we're
speaking to ourselves every night.

00:34:43.454 --> 00:34:45.614
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you're
working with people, by the way,

00:34:45.924 --> 00:34:47.374
as a therapist, how are you working

00:34:47.824 --> 00:34:48.504
Ginny Jordan: as a therapist?

00:34:48.754 --> 00:34:55.234
Yeah, that's what I got my debris in and
then extra extra trainings, et cetera.

00:34:55.234 --> 00:34:58.124
And then I really got involved
in dream work specifically.

00:34:58.629 --> 00:35:01.589
and studied with some wonderful Jungians.

00:35:02.789 --> 00:35:05.299
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the
question, the natural question to ask

00:35:05.299 --> 00:35:09.809
was, so Carl Jung, obviously the most
prolific writer, or at least the household

00:35:09.819 --> 00:35:14.709
name at any rate, in terms of dream
work and the interpretation of dreams.

00:35:14.909 --> 00:35:19.824
Those of you who don't know who Jung
is, Jung was Swiss Swiss German early

00:35:19.894 --> 00:35:24.884
psychologist, psychiatrist product,
protege of Freud, and then went away

00:35:24.954 --> 00:35:26.974
from Freud and forged his own thing.

00:35:27.024 --> 00:35:31.134
And an awful lot of what we take for
granted in terms of psychological

00:35:31.144 --> 00:35:33.554
stuff and that's taught in colleges
today really comes down to Jung.

00:35:34.294 --> 00:35:37.964
Do you think that Jung, it's a chance
for me to ask you, do you think that

00:35:37.964 --> 00:35:42.229
Jung's interpretations of dreams are
pretty sound, or do you think they're

00:35:42.229 --> 00:35:47.454
just Subjective and, but just sort of a
useful way into what, what do you think?

00:35:48.734 --> 00:35:50.894
Ginny Jordan: Well, I think,
I think we've come a long way.

00:35:50.894 --> 00:35:57.504
I think he, he, he really mapped the
unconscious and in the most profound way

00:35:57.504 --> 00:36:00.084
that ever had been done prior to him.

00:36:00.144 --> 00:36:04.834
And that was that, that you Rupert could
be over there in Germany right now.

00:36:04.834 --> 00:36:07.844
And tonight you could dream
about, you know, a chalice.

00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:09.539
Rupert Isaacson: A

00:36:09.619 --> 00:36:13.179
Ginny Jordan: golden chalice, and
tonight I can dream about a golden

00:36:13.179 --> 00:36:18.929
chalice and there's some kind of
collective unconscious material that is

00:36:18.949 --> 00:36:21.149
ubiquitous throughout the whole world.

00:36:21.169 --> 00:36:25.699
And he really excavated that
that dimension of the unconscious

00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:29.519
that we're sharing a collective
unconscious as well as having our

00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.779
own personal unconscious material.

00:36:32.279 --> 00:36:34.989
And that was revelatory at the time.

00:36:35.334 --> 00:36:39.894
That somehow we're linked to these
images and these symbols that have

00:36:40.504 --> 00:36:44.654
preexisting tremendous, tremendous
meaning, meaning that are rooted

00:36:44.664 --> 00:36:47.464
beyond just myth and story.

00:36:47.464 --> 00:36:51.884
They live somewhere in the fertile soil
of our beings, and it doesn't matter

00:36:51.884 --> 00:36:54.819
our upbringing culture, skin color.

00:36:55.219 --> 00:37:01.749
Gender and none of it, and that's really
was his, his, his strongest contribution

00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.179
in terms of individually working.

00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.909
You know, he certainly set
up templates, but people have

00:37:07.909 --> 00:37:09.049
gone much further than that.

00:37:09.049 --> 00:37:10.979
It's not like everybody
who dreams about a snake.

00:37:10.979 --> 00:37:15.879
It means, oh, you're dealing with your
sexuality or your it's the really deeper

00:37:15.879 --> 00:37:19.889
work is, you know, Rupert, who's who's
that snake to you as you begin to have a

00:37:19.889 --> 00:37:23.439
dialogue and he was also most known for.

00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.529
What, what he called, you
know, active imagination.

00:37:26.549 --> 00:37:30.009
So back to your, your
thoughts on imagination.

00:37:30.009 --> 00:37:31.599
I do think it comes down to that.

00:37:32.229 --> 00:37:36.819
And so he really encouraged
people to engage their dream

00:37:36.819 --> 00:37:39.269
life in a living, breathing way.

00:37:39.269 --> 00:37:41.109
It's not just something
that happens at night.

00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:42.139
That's past tense.

00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:43.459
You know, been there, done that.

00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:44.809
Here's the next day.

00:37:45.089 --> 00:37:47.979
He was really interested
in like your snake.

00:37:48.459 --> 00:37:50.799
And what does that snake
want to say to you?

00:37:51.449 --> 00:37:53.549
You know, why ask him why he bit you?

00:37:54.859 --> 00:37:56.309
Don't just interpret that.

00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:58.099
Ask him.

00:37:59.249 --> 00:38:03.459
Rupert Isaacson: So when you were doing
your dream work and you're working

00:38:03.459 --> 00:38:07.399
as a therapist with people, you come
out of college and you're there in,

00:38:07.409 --> 00:38:11.569
it's the 1970s and you know, the world
is opening up and the counterculture

00:38:11.569 --> 00:38:13.979
is now moving into the mainstream.

00:38:14.489 --> 00:38:19.249
What, what, what we, what were you
saying to people when they were

00:38:19.249 --> 00:38:20.409
coming to you with their dreams?

00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:24.529
How, how were you, how
were you approaching that?

00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:24.859
What?

00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.169
What was your mission with that?

00:38:31.009 --> 00:38:35.169
Ginny Jordan: My mission was ultimately,
which I now know better now, because

00:38:35.169 --> 00:38:36.639
I still do some of that work.

00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:39.309
I have actually 2 groups
that I work with today.

00:38:39.809 --> 00:38:44.649
It's gone through lots of cycles, but
it's quite active again in my life.

00:38:45.069 --> 00:38:49.889
But ultimately, what I'm interested
in, and the, the, the angle in which I

00:38:49.909 --> 00:38:54.829
work with is that somehow this notion
that day and night are separate.

00:38:56.089 --> 00:38:56.169
Rupert Isaacson: And

00:38:56.689 --> 00:39:00.769
Ginny Jordan: that this idea which is
not just an idea, it's my felt experience

00:39:00.889 --> 00:39:03.139
that you and I right now are in a dream.

00:39:04.179 --> 00:39:10.589
We're having a podcast dream and
that if you experience night and

00:39:10.589 --> 00:39:14.264
day is kind of a seamless and
many indigenous people knew this.

00:39:15.164 --> 00:39:18.894
Right that, that the things that
happen in your outer waking life, so

00:39:18.894 --> 00:39:23.924
to speak are a little further away
from the felt sense that arrives in

00:39:24.444 --> 00:39:27.004
and what looks irrational in a dream.

00:39:27.654 --> 00:39:28.694
It's all the same.

00:39:28.914 --> 00:39:32.394
It's just that at night we
have a different opportunity.

00:39:32.964 --> 00:39:37.754
to generate and create and to be
in a position to actually receive

00:39:37.784 --> 00:39:40.974
tremendous help instruction guidance.

00:39:40.984 --> 00:39:42.404
I mean, it's just powerful.

00:39:42.404 --> 00:39:44.914
I'm just continually blown away.

00:39:45.384 --> 00:39:45.524
I'm

00:39:46.104 --> 00:39:51.574
Rupert Isaacson: asking people questions
that are aimed at helping them to perhaps

00:39:51.574 --> 00:39:54.764
gain insight into what those dreams are
trying to tell them in terms of guidance.

00:39:55.514 --> 00:40:01.964
Is, is, is, is it primarily that, or
is it helping to reassure them that if

00:40:01.964 --> 00:40:08.004
they're having negative dreams perhaps
or nightmare dreams or despair dreams

00:40:08.004 --> 00:40:12.534
or something that that perhaps isn't,
you know, necessarily their reality or

00:40:13.294 --> 00:40:19.224
when someone comes to you with a dream
that they actually dreamt at night,

00:40:19.434 --> 00:40:22.014
why are they coming to you with that?

00:40:22.294 --> 00:40:22.824
And

00:40:25.054 --> 00:40:26.374
what's your,

00:40:29.124 --> 00:40:32.494
again, mission is, is, and I've
asked the question before, so it's

00:40:32.524 --> 00:40:35.064
like I'm repeating myself, but I
guess what I'm trying to grasp at

00:40:35.094 --> 00:40:38.734
is deep down, what are you mostly
trying to help them with in this?

00:40:41.064 --> 00:40:44.734
Ginny Jordan: Trying to help them expand
into being more who they really are.

00:40:45.494 --> 00:40:45.864
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:40:46.364 --> 00:40:49.314
Do you feel that that's what dreams
are doing that they're saying to us?

00:40:50.104 --> 00:40:50.814
Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.

00:40:52.174 --> 00:40:56.864
It doesn't matter whether it comes
in the form of a nightmare or despair

00:40:56.874 --> 00:41:00.494
or a snippet, you know, I can't tell
you how many people come to a dream

00:41:00.504 --> 00:41:03.784
because I just had a little snippet
and then they start talking about

00:41:03.784 --> 00:41:06.169
it and a world opens up with it.

00:41:06.339 --> 00:41:10.209
Little one liner that they hear
or something they see and I take

00:41:10.209 --> 00:41:14.379
the position that it's not like
you over milk it for meaning.

00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:16.499
It's inherently meaningful.

00:41:16.509 --> 00:41:18.879
It's like young used to
talk about is every night.

00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:22.779
Your soul's writing you
a letter and our job.

00:41:23.399 --> 00:41:25.829
is to wake up and open the letter.

00:41:26.349 --> 00:41:28.179
Rupert Isaacson: Now, why do
we want to open the letter?

00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:30.729
Ginny Jordan: Instead of throw it away?

00:41:31.349 --> 00:41:31.579
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:41:31.579 --> 00:41:33.939
I mean, this might sound like a self
evident question, but I think for

00:41:33.939 --> 00:41:35.009
a lot of people, it really isn't.

00:41:35.569 --> 00:41:36.849
For a lot of people, a dream is a dream.

00:41:36.859 --> 00:41:37.919
You dream it, it goes away.

00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.739
Why do we want to open
that letter from our soul?

00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:46.154
Ginny Jordan: Because You have the
most beautiful way of addressing

00:41:46.154 --> 00:41:48.954
your own being than anybody else.

00:41:49.464 --> 00:41:50.674
It's your material.

00:41:51.194 --> 00:41:53.894
It's not, I didn't drop
those into your psyche.

00:41:54.694 --> 00:41:55.044
It's yours.

00:41:55.214 --> 00:42:00.044
You have the most beautiful way of
speaking to yourself that the other,

00:42:00.054 --> 00:42:05.204
the other night, two nights ago, I
dreamt that I went to a, some being

00:42:05.214 --> 00:42:08.894
said to me, a wonderful human, just,
I felt like I really respected this

00:42:08.894 --> 00:42:11.294
person said to me, go into this room.

00:42:11.294 --> 00:42:12.084
You're finally ready.

00:42:12.774 --> 00:42:16.954
You know, and I go into this room and it's
like filled floor to ceiling with pearls.

00:42:17.514 --> 00:42:22.774
I couldn't even barely get the door
open and you know, okay, that's

00:42:22.774 --> 00:42:24.194
a letter like, what the heck?

00:42:24.514 --> 00:42:28.384
Right now, if I just throw that letter
out, I will have missed something

00:42:28.394 --> 00:42:31.004
quite, quite beautiful for me.

00:42:31.554 --> 00:42:37.274
And my job as a human is to bow
to that, like say, thank you.

00:42:37.794 --> 00:42:39.244
And then engage it.

00:42:40.094 --> 00:42:41.944
It's not just, not just random,

00:42:41.944 --> 00:42:43.694
Rupert Isaacson: how do you
unpack that particular dream?

00:42:43.694 --> 00:42:44.544
You can talk me through the process.

00:42:45.949 --> 00:42:48.509
Ginny Jordan: Well, for myself,
sometimes it's really helpful to have

00:42:48.509 --> 00:42:51.569
someone else ask you the questions,
but I can ask them for myself.

00:42:51.569 --> 00:42:54.619
I've learned to that over
the years for myself.

00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:56.799
I asked very obvious questions.

00:42:56.799 --> 00:42:58.109
Like, what did that feel like?

00:42:58.339 --> 00:43:01.039
Well, I was so, kind of intimidated.

00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:04.819
And excited at the same
time, what intimidated you?

00:43:04.829 --> 00:43:05.309
Jenny?

00:43:05.959 --> 00:43:06.839
Why is that?

00:43:07.269 --> 00:43:08.859
You know, it's like I was in a room.

00:43:08.869 --> 00:43:11.589
My mind could say, Oh, my God,
it's pearls of wisdom or it's

00:43:11.629 --> 00:43:13.499
treasures or that's all true.

00:43:13.499 --> 00:43:16.719
But I needed to have a direct
relationship to feel it.

00:43:16.729 --> 00:43:22.359
And it was something about feeling
the fullness floor to ceiling

00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:25.824
fullness of these pearlescent pearls.

00:43:26.384 --> 00:43:32.524
As as a felt experience of, and this
person that told me to go in, there

00:43:32.524 --> 00:43:33.884
was basically saying, you're ready.

00:43:33.884 --> 00:43:35.684
Now you're ready.

00:43:35.694 --> 00:43:37.094
It's kind of arrival time.

00:43:37.634 --> 00:43:38.324
You're ready.

00:43:38.544 --> 00:43:43.104
And I'm like, both scared
and I'm both like, excited.

00:43:43.704 --> 00:43:46.214
Rupert Isaacson: And what
conclusion did you draw at the

00:43:46.214 --> 00:43:48.574
end of your analysis of the dream?

00:43:50.234 --> 00:43:52.834
Ginny Jordan: I think it affirms
something that I've been feeling for a

00:43:52.834 --> 00:43:59.014
number of years, having turned 70 this
year, that this is fulfillment time.

00:43:59.544 --> 00:44:02.744
It's like to let myself be that full.

00:44:02.814 --> 00:44:03.204
Okay.

00:44:03.684 --> 00:44:09.294
And not, not be afraid of my own
fullness and iridescent possibility

00:44:09.714 --> 00:44:14.234
to, you know, to fill myself in
with the truth of this being.

00:44:14.244 --> 00:44:18.914
It's not really about an arrogance or
a, it's just like, wow, fill yourself.

00:44:19.419 --> 00:44:21.759
Rupert Isaacson: Now this is interesting
to me because we haven't even gone

00:44:21.759 --> 00:44:24.409
into yet in the podcast the stuff
you've actually done in your life

00:44:24.449 --> 00:44:29.889
Which we're about to but it would
seem to me knowing you for 20 odd

00:44:29.919 --> 00:44:33.639
years a little bit more well, Ginny,
I mean, yes blindingly obvious.

00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:37.549
You've just done all this amazing shit
and You're gonna probably keep doing lots

00:44:37.549 --> 00:44:42.469
of amazing shit because that seems to be
what you do but why then are you only now?

00:44:43.979 --> 00:44:47.269
being shown You That
it's time to go into this

00:44:49.909 --> 00:44:54.729
room of your true power, your true
pearls, your true, your true treasures.

00:44:55.099 --> 00:44:57.569
Given that you've been at it
for an awful long time, what do

00:44:57.579 --> 00:44:59.254
you think is going on with that?

00:44:59.814 --> 00:45:00.964
Ginny Jordan: That's a great question.

00:45:01.044 --> 00:45:03.704
Well, it's just really pointing
to my psychology, isn't it?

00:45:04.474 --> 00:45:08.964
That I can say, oh, and you can say, oh,
my God, you've done this and you've done

00:45:08.964 --> 00:45:14.754
this, but to actually let myself sink
into the depth of that and have it hook

00:45:14.764 --> 00:45:18.804
into the part of me that always cared so
much that I have an impact in the world

00:45:18.864 --> 00:45:20.914
that I could, my caring could translate.

00:45:21.444 --> 00:45:25.264
That's something that hasn't fully It's
sort of like I do what I do, you know,

00:45:25.264 --> 00:45:29.244
it's same, sometimes it feels like magic
and easy and, you know, but to really

00:45:29.244 --> 00:45:35.074
feel, really experience the depth of
that, let's call it mission fulfilled.

00:45:35.644 --> 00:45:38.864
At this stage in my life when
I can see, you know, the sun

00:45:38.874 --> 00:45:41.034
is going to set here, right?

00:45:41.044 --> 00:45:45.334
It is, you know, I've 70, like I go,
Oh my God, that's 10 years from 80.

00:45:46.164 --> 00:45:52.234
So it's maybe resting in the back wave
of the truth of my life and what I've

00:45:52.234 --> 00:45:54.174
been, the pearls I've been able to offer.

00:45:54.734 --> 00:45:55.294
I just

00:45:55.294 --> 00:45:56.474
Rupert Isaacson: go
ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

00:45:56.884 --> 00:45:57.254
Sorry.

00:45:57.254 --> 00:45:58.534
Well,

00:45:58.534 --> 00:45:59.644
Ginny Jordan: you'd be my psychologist.

00:45:59.644 --> 00:46:00.134
Go for it.

00:46:00.624 --> 00:46:01.894
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
I just got an intuitive

00:46:03.964 --> 00:46:04.414
picture.

00:46:06.984 --> 00:46:11.704
And the intuitive picture I got
is that the person going in to

00:46:11.704 --> 00:46:16.184
the room is the younger you.

00:46:16.854 --> 00:46:23.274
And the younger you is really the next,
the younger generation and that the

00:46:23.324 --> 00:46:27.159
pearls of wisdom, the treasure trove
that, of experience that you have to

00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:32.519
offer that you have amassed through this
lifetime now needs to be opened up to

00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:35.109
those younger yous that are now coming.

00:46:36.569 --> 00:46:37.139
Ginny Jordan: Beautiful.

00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:37.549
Beautiful.

00:46:39.029 --> 00:46:40.969
Rupert Isaacson: But that was
just and it's funny, I got

00:46:40.969 --> 00:46:42.829
a little physical feeling.

00:46:43.329 --> 00:46:46.859
In my solar plexus, and then
that image popped in, but that's,

00:46:47.529 --> 00:46:48.939
that's Rupert's subjective.

00:46:49.839 --> 00:46:54.289
Ginny Jordan: Yeah, but it's up to
me to have that resonate or not.

00:46:54.289 --> 00:46:55.949
And it does, I can feel that.

00:46:56.489 --> 00:47:00.269
And this is the reason why I'm
passionate about the dream world is

00:47:00.299 --> 00:47:04.659
that if I hadn't told you that dream,
you wouldn't have engaged me with it.

00:47:04.659 --> 00:47:07.319
You wouldn't have had your
own revelation intuition about

00:47:07.319 --> 00:47:09.769
it, which furthers my growth.

00:47:09.769 --> 00:47:11.159
Should

00:47:12.139 --> 00:47:14.429
Rupert Isaacson: we all be having
conversations about our dreams?

00:47:15.024 --> 00:47:15.884
Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.

00:47:16.674 --> 00:47:17.424
Rupert Isaacson: Why aren't we?

00:47:18.249 --> 00:47:19.439
Given that we have them every night,

00:47:20.609 --> 00:47:21.549
Ginny Jordan: we've lost that.

00:47:21.549 --> 00:47:24.179
I mean, there are many, you
know, tribes in the world.

00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:28.809
The Oshawa come to mind in Ecuador
that they would never, ever, ever

00:47:28.809 --> 00:47:33.169
open up a date without having a dream
council, because if we're operating

00:47:33.169 --> 00:47:37.189
particularly like, so you and I are
in this moment, having this wonderful

00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:41.119
reconnection and relationship, they're
waking up every morning with their

00:47:41.649 --> 00:47:45.309
families and extended family, their
tribe, so to speak, their village.

00:47:45.534 --> 00:47:46.034
People.

00:47:46.054 --> 00:47:50.394
And if I know that you dreamt about
a snake last night and we've having

00:47:50.394 --> 00:47:56.124
counsel and you hear about my pearls,
part of our relational field, commitment,

00:47:56.124 --> 00:48:00.554
connection, and love field is to
mirror that throughout the whole day.

00:48:00.594 --> 00:48:02.334
So that guess what?

00:48:02.384 --> 00:48:03.974
I mentioned a snake.

00:48:03.984 --> 00:48:07.074
Well, this morning, actually, I
did see my bull snakes finally wake

00:48:07.074 --> 00:48:10.574
up from their spring hiding that
hide under my bedroom, literally.

00:48:11.114 --> 00:48:12.894
And there was the bull snake.

00:48:13.299 --> 00:48:17.269
And I'm, I'm carrying you today
through that your dream of the

00:48:17.269 --> 00:48:18.659
snake and you're carrying me.

00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:22.469
And that was a way of life
for many, many tribes.

00:48:22.529 --> 00:48:27.509
And, or you look at you know,
dream cultures in Australia you

00:48:27.509 --> 00:48:29.149
know, landscape was the dream.

00:48:29.149 --> 00:48:32.909
That's what I meant by the seam
of night and day start shifting.

00:48:32.909 --> 00:48:37.409
If you really, if you really open
up the seams, we keep them separate.

00:48:37.409 --> 00:48:38.909
You know, we often go to bed at night.

00:48:39.389 --> 00:48:40.089
Whoa.

00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:42.109
You just want to crash, right?

00:48:42.109 --> 00:48:43.279
Just check out.

00:48:43.759 --> 00:48:46.999
And don't want anymore, we're just
trying to recover because there's

00:48:46.999 --> 00:48:51.619
been just a mass amount of content and
stimulus and we just need recovery.

00:48:51.849 --> 00:48:53.409
But imagine it wasn't like that.

00:48:53.989 --> 00:48:57.179
Imagine your, your day life
completely speaks to your

00:48:57.179 --> 00:48:59.479
nightlife and all the way around.

00:48:59.539 --> 00:48:59.839
But

00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:01.299
Rupert Isaacson: it's interesting.

00:49:01.359 --> 00:49:03.574
The messages we get when
we're younger, you know.

00:49:03.844 --> 00:49:08.224
So I remember once trying to recount
a dream of mine to my great aunt,

00:49:08.314 --> 00:49:11.354
who was a famously acerbic lady.

00:49:11.754 --> 00:49:13.784
And she was also my way into horses.

00:49:13.854 --> 00:49:18.104
And so I had this weird, if any of
you have ever read Great Expectations,

00:49:18.374 --> 00:49:19.934
it was a bit like Miss Havisham.

00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:25.469
And Pip in the Miss Havisham is the
sort of mad old, not terribly nice

00:49:25.769 --> 00:49:28.579
lady, but very interesting lady
who lives in the grand old house.

00:49:28.629 --> 00:49:31.649
And Pip is the boy who's sort
of sent to, to live there.

00:49:31.649 --> 00:49:32.259
And that was me.

00:49:32.279 --> 00:49:35.609
She, she lived in this old decaying
house, which had been very grand.

00:49:35.759 --> 00:49:36.819
There had been money.

00:49:36.959 --> 00:49:40.189
It had been a bit aristocratic at one
point, the money had all been drunk away.

00:49:40.399 --> 00:49:43.439
And now she lived in the sort of ruins of
the house, but there was still old stables

00:49:43.439 --> 00:49:44.769
with some old retired horses in it.

00:49:44.789 --> 00:49:45.919
And I.

00:49:46.349 --> 00:49:46.819
Found mine.

00:49:46.939 --> 00:49:50.769
I used to spend every weekend and every
holiday with her because I kept the

00:49:50.769 --> 00:49:56.259
horse that I bought As a teenager with
the money that I made from a junk store

00:49:57.089 --> 00:50:00.819
Her house and so we had this strange
relationship and she she wasn't very nice

00:50:00.819 --> 00:50:05.309
But she was definitely the the portal
into that world for me And I remember

00:50:05.309 --> 00:50:08.819
once trying to record recount a dream
to her and she turned to me and said

00:50:08.819 --> 00:50:14.959
and that's a withering Lee sarcastic
English way and You know, Rupert, I

00:50:14.969 --> 00:50:20.489
have to tell you that the truth is
there's nothing more boring than having

00:50:20.489 --> 00:50:21.839
to listen to somebody else's dreams.

00:50:23.449 --> 00:50:29.369
And in one, the guillotine, you know, I
sort of never talked about them again.

00:50:29.859 --> 00:50:34.669
And I wonder if, so, so, but so
behind what you say, and we haven't,

00:50:34.729 --> 00:50:37.539
again, we haven't gone on to all
the amazing stuff that you've done,

00:50:37.539 --> 00:50:38.909
so please listeners keep listening.

00:50:39.349 --> 00:50:46.209
But is what you're really saying
that in order to thrive, not just

00:50:46.209 --> 00:50:52.689
survive as a human being, we must
live in a spiritual dimension, it's.

00:50:53.429 --> 00:50:55.319
Just the other half of who we are.

00:50:55.319 --> 00:50:57.594
We are the rational half of us
and the irrational half of us.

00:50:57.594 --> 00:51:02.009
And we just slowly sort of
spiritually starve to death and

00:51:02.649 --> 00:51:04.329
disappear into, you know, misery.

00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:10.389
If we don't live the spiritual life
and the first and most immediate key

00:51:10.389 --> 00:51:12.029
to that spiritual life is our dreams.

00:51:14.914 --> 00:51:18.524
Ginny Jordan: I would say, yes, I don't
know if it's the 1st and most immediate.

00:51:18.524 --> 00:51:20.124
It's not everybody's language.

00:51:20.594 --> 00:51:22.794
Some people work their whole lives off.

00:51:22.814 --> 00:51:26.284
They so want to remember dreams and
it's almost impossible for them.

00:51:26.284 --> 00:51:28.114
And there are lots of tricks.

00:51:28.114 --> 00:51:28.604
I could share.

00:51:28.604 --> 00:51:31.054
We're not going to do that
now that to help with that.

00:51:31.704 --> 00:51:35.634
It's a portal for some more than
others, and that's just the way it is.

00:51:35.634 --> 00:51:39.444
And we could, some people would
put it down to biochemistry,

00:51:39.444 --> 00:51:40.994
you know, it doesn't matter.

00:51:41.014 --> 00:51:46.594
So it is a, it is 1 of the many doors you
can, you can walk through the same door.

00:51:46.594 --> 00:51:50.244
If you've got all your senses
open in the, in the forest.

00:51:50.589 --> 00:51:55.869
You know, it's, it's that that content
can arrive, just that can be at its own

00:51:55.879 --> 00:52:02.119
dream where suddenly you're noticing right
things because your senses are awake.

00:52:02.589 --> 00:52:07.249
So it's whatever door that is
there to provide an opportunity

00:52:07.249 --> 00:52:09.479
for us to wake, to really wake

00:52:09.479 --> 00:52:10.859
Rupert Isaacson: up.

00:52:11.239 --> 00:52:13.739
I'm playing devil's advocate for
the listeners that might say, well,

00:52:13.759 --> 00:52:18.309
you know, I, I don't need, you
know, why do I need to do this?

00:52:18.649 --> 00:52:19.849
Is it about thriving?

00:52:19.849 --> 00:52:20.469
Is it about?

00:52:21.014 --> 00:52:23.364
actually not being depressed?

00:52:23.364 --> 00:52:23.954
Is it about

00:52:26.324 --> 00:52:30.594
being alive on the planet in
a way that is more joyful?

00:52:31.474 --> 00:52:37.664
What's in it for us to engage with our
dreams or engage spiritually in this way?

00:52:39.304 --> 00:52:40.274
Ginny Jordan: I think it's simple.

00:52:40.274 --> 00:52:44.164
If you want to have a meaningful
life, a life that really translates

00:52:44.254 --> 00:52:47.364
to you and your, your meaning base
is going to be different than mine.

00:52:47.694 --> 00:52:51.654
But if you really want to have a
meaningful life, if you don't want

00:52:51.654 --> 00:52:55.664
to just go through the motions of
life, you know, sort of half awake or

00:52:55.664 --> 00:53:00.124
sleepwalking or, you know, wondering
there's something unfulfilled,

00:53:00.164 --> 00:53:01.744
something that's not happening.

00:53:01.744 --> 00:53:05.124
I'm, you know, low grade
depression, however it manifests.

00:53:05.749 --> 00:53:11.429
This is one of the more extraordinary
ways to open up that deep felt experience.

00:53:11.429 --> 00:53:13.489
There's something
meaningful going on here.

00:53:13.849 --> 00:53:17.679
There's something larger than just
this little being sitting over

00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:21.489
here and that being over there that
is moving through this existence.

00:53:22.189 --> 00:53:24.189
And there are a million
names for that thing.

00:53:24.909 --> 00:53:28.929
You know, it's, some would call
that God, some would call that great

00:53:29.049 --> 00:53:34.149
spirit, some would call it mother,
father, divine someone called the Dao,

00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:36.239
some, whatever you, doesn't matter.

00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:42.999
It's it's the, the thing that seeds
life with the richness and the texture

00:53:42.999 --> 00:53:49.799
of this very precious existence
that is, is so brief, but so potent.

00:53:52.709 --> 00:53:53.209
Rupert Isaacson: Beautifully put.

00:53:55.059 --> 00:54:00.519
Okay, so, when I met you, you had
been obviously doing this type

00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:02.499
of therapy work for a long time.

00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:06.319
You'd also gone through
marriage and parenthood.

00:54:07.289 --> 00:54:08.509
You had had children.

00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:11.449
Those children, when I first
met you, were already grown.

00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:20.229
And when I first met you, you were
already a mover and shaker in education.

00:54:20.999 --> 00:54:25.009
In climate change before anyone
was even talking about it, and

00:54:25.009 --> 00:54:26.969
then went on to put out some.

00:54:28.494 --> 00:54:35.374
Extremely sort of policy changing
bits of media that have resonated,

00:54:35.514 --> 00:54:38.554
you know, through the decades
and got things actually done.

00:54:39.014 --> 00:54:44.494
And then I also knew you as you were
starting this thing called Bead for Life

00:54:44.754 --> 00:54:47.094
with women in Africa doing microfinance.

00:54:47.424 --> 00:54:48.284
How did you?

00:54:48.929 --> 00:54:52.439
which has grown into something huge,
which I hope you'll tell us about.

00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:55.719
How did you go from, okay,
well, I'm a therapist.

00:54:55.719 --> 00:54:56.819
There's lots of therapists out there.

00:54:57.339 --> 00:55:02.529
And yes, I'm doing good in the world, but
I'm, you know, a therapist and I'm a mom.

00:55:02.749 --> 00:55:03.359
Okay, great.

00:55:03.429 --> 00:55:06.029
I'm putting nice human
beings into the world.

00:55:06.029 --> 00:55:08.739
And I've met your children,
at least I met two of them and

00:55:08.799 --> 00:55:09.979
they're great human beings.

00:55:10.149 --> 00:55:11.219
So job done.

00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:15.879
How do you suddenly go from
that to the kind of world stage?

00:55:17.044 --> 00:55:21.054
That you've been operating on since
I've known you, what happened?

00:55:22.984 --> 00:55:25.154
Ginny Jordan: Well, I got very sick.

00:55:25.854 --> 00:55:26.314
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:55:26.634 --> 00:55:30.404
Ginny Jordan: I was 35 and I was
after my third child was born.

00:55:30.414 --> 00:55:34.484
I just really had a hard time recovering
and I knew something was wrong.

00:55:34.484 --> 00:55:36.294
And talk about dreams.

00:55:36.294 --> 00:55:37.479
I had some pretty bad dreams.

00:55:38.229 --> 00:55:42.859
Prophetic dreams that something
was not right and long story

00:55:42.859 --> 00:55:47.429
short, I was diagnosed with breast
cancer and a very aggressive form.

00:55:47.529 --> 00:55:52.159
So at 35 at 35 did not
look how old at that time.

00:55:53.424 --> 00:55:55.744
They were eight, six, and two shit.

00:55:55.934 --> 00:55:56.244
Okay.

00:55:56.734 --> 00:55:57.914
That I really remember.

00:55:58.334 --> 00:56:01.814
And you know, as anybody knows, you
know, when you go through a, you

00:56:01.814 --> 00:56:05.874
know, a diagnosis or extreme health
crisis, you know, your, your, your

00:56:05.874 --> 00:56:09.924
life flips upside down and you're
very quickly measuring everything.

00:56:10.469 --> 00:56:14.599
And it all becomes about measurement,
you know, everything from how much time

00:56:14.609 --> 00:56:17.339
might I have left to what really matters?

00:56:17.339 --> 00:56:18.339
What's the priority?

00:56:18.339 --> 00:56:19.739
How do I measure those things?

00:56:20.189 --> 00:56:26.109
So it was a deep time, deep time of doing
inventory, taking a look at what internal

00:56:26.109 --> 00:56:28.169
resources I had to meet this challenge.

00:56:28.969 --> 00:56:34.789
And Long story short, you know, it was a
dramatic few years of, you know, surgeries

00:56:34.789 --> 00:56:42.249
and chemotherapy and but I couldn't
return to this sort of classic therapy

00:56:42.259 --> 00:56:46.739
world that I was in you know, first world
problems took on a different proportion.

00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:50.239
I couldn't sit there in the room when
somebody was just furious at their

00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:54.169
husband, and he didn't like the tile
she chose for the bathroom or whatever.

00:56:54.169 --> 00:56:55.729
I just was like, I can't do this.

00:56:56.409 --> 00:56:59.129
And I wanted to get on the ground where.

00:56:59.684 --> 00:57:01.614
There was a different
relationship to suffering.

00:57:02.509 --> 00:57:07.009
And people that daily lives, you know,
they're just, they're in survival

00:57:07.029 --> 00:57:08.739
in many third world countries.

00:57:09.259 --> 00:57:14.499
And I just had a deep call and
knowing that I needed that.

00:57:14.499 --> 00:57:18.729
And so as serendipity would have
it, a good friend of mine who's an

00:57:18.739 --> 00:57:21.509
AIDS doctor was going to Uganda.

00:57:22.259 --> 00:57:25.079
And I asked if I could come, my
daughters were very interested

00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:26.759
in the HIV issue at the time.

00:57:26.759 --> 00:57:29.049
And I thought, let's take them
there and give them a real.

00:57:29.449 --> 00:57:34.349
Experience and we ran, we went
going through refugee camps

00:57:34.349 --> 00:57:38.389
after refugee camps and you know,
looking at extreme suffering.

00:57:38.389 --> 00:57:42.279
And there was an extraordinary group
of women that were making beads out

00:57:42.279 --> 00:57:45.889
of paper and like, they were gorgeous.

00:57:46.689 --> 00:57:52.349
Hard to imagine, but take a piece of
paper from a magazine, you know, cut out a

00:57:52.349 --> 00:57:54.319
triangle, make a bead and make a necklace.

00:57:54.319 --> 00:57:57.989
And they had piles of them, necklaces
and bracelets and earrings, but

00:57:57.989 --> 00:58:02.019
they had no, hundreds of women,
but they had no way to market them.

00:58:02.729 --> 00:58:05.949
And suddenly it was my friend
and I that were there together.

00:58:05.949 --> 00:58:07.789
We just, we saw it.

00:58:07.789 --> 00:58:11.769
It's like, Oh, this, we took
the beads after being over

00:58:11.769 --> 00:58:14.119
there for a month or six weeks.

00:58:14.149 --> 00:58:18.594
And as Again, synchronistic moment
where a friend heard about it

00:58:18.594 --> 00:58:21.084
and sent, sent them to Oprah.

00:58:21.084 --> 00:58:25.924
And then suddenly we're in Oprah's
magazine and 400 words in the O magazine.

00:58:25.924 --> 00:58:31.214
And suddenly we had a real
problem, which was a huge demand.

00:58:31.644 --> 00:58:35.034
And we hadn't even put
together an organization.

00:58:35.534 --> 00:58:38.214
We were just sort of
clueless how to do that part.

00:58:38.224 --> 00:58:41.964
And that was the whole learning
curve to our commitment was

00:58:42.104 --> 00:58:44.674
to find a, a way to sell this.

00:58:45.254 --> 00:58:50.304
Well, product but basically our interest
was never actually, it was not micro loan.

00:58:50.304 --> 00:58:52.294
And we were kind of opposed to that.

00:58:52.714 --> 00:58:58.584
It was much more how how, how do you
create the pathway for a woman who makes

00:58:58.614 --> 00:59:05.794
2 a day pounding road base in the hot sun
to 10 a day where she can afford school

00:59:05.794 --> 00:59:08.404
fees for her children and medicine.

00:59:08.969 --> 00:59:14.399
And for her children and food and this,
so this was an income generating project

00:59:14.849 --> 00:59:19.409
and, you know, hundreds, thousands and
thousands of volunteers eventually around

00:59:19.409 --> 00:59:23.609
the world participated in selling these
beads and hosting like a Tupperware

00:59:23.609 --> 00:59:27.499
party model, where you sell the beads and
tell the story of these amazing women.

00:59:28.249 --> 00:59:33.739
And then it morphed over time years,
this was a good 17 years of my life.

00:59:33.769 --> 00:59:38.139
It, it morphed into what's now called
the street business school, which

00:59:38.149 --> 00:59:44.859
is a really incredible on the ground
grassroots curriculum a teaching

00:59:44.859 --> 00:59:50.099
curriculum of how a woman can go
from extreme poverty to Being a true

00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:52.079
entrepreneur and having many businesses.

00:59:52.089 --> 00:59:53.869
So that's where it's landed.

00:59:53.879 --> 00:59:58.679
So we started in Uganda and now we're
in 40 some other countries and it's.

00:59:59.449 --> 01:00:00.669
It's got a life of its own.

01:00:01.399 --> 01:00:03.979
Rupert Isaacson: Why were you
opposed to micro learning and

01:00:04.009 --> 01:00:05.029
are you still opposed to it?

01:00:06.869 --> 01:00:09.719
Ginny Jordan: Well, those, you know,
go back to the days when, you know,

01:00:09.719 --> 01:00:14.439
that was really kind of just beginning
and the interest payments themselves

01:00:14.479 --> 01:00:16.549
often became a very tricky thing.

01:00:17.099 --> 01:00:17.289
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:00:17.399 --> 01:00:21.919
Ginny Jordan: And there were some
organizations that You know, really looked

01:00:21.919 --> 01:00:25.099
like they were in service to Loney, but
actually would start raising interest

01:00:25.099 --> 01:00:29.669
rates if you couldn't pay it back, you
know, within the 1st year and we've kind

01:00:29.669 --> 01:00:34.169
of our motto was, you know, we weren't
it was like a leg up and not a handout.

01:00:36.634 --> 01:00:41.554
Not a handout in any way, because what
these women, you know, we discovered,

01:00:41.554 --> 01:00:46.484
I'm making big generalizations, but it
was our felt experience consistently.

01:00:46.504 --> 01:00:51.584
I mean, they had every
desire, every desire to work.

01:00:52.224 --> 01:00:53.964
They just needed, right?

01:00:54.064 --> 01:00:58.084
The, the support and context,
which we could create.

01:00:58.589 --> 01:01:02.779
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you in the early
stages, and I guess that's a collective

01:01:02.779 --> 01:01:06.119
view, were buying these beautiful beads.

01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:06.859
And I've seen the beads.

01:01:06.859 --> 01:01:07.979
They are extraordinary.

01:01:07.979 --> 01:01:10.419
You'd never know they were
made out of what they make

01:01:10.909 --> 01:01:12.319
and let alone magazine paper.

01:01:12.359 --> 01:01:14.089
You know, they, they look stunning.

01:01:14.519 --> 01:01:17.819
You were initially just what, from
your own pocket, just buying them

01:01:17.869 --> 01:01:20.779
and then thinking, Oh my gosh, how
do we, how do we sell these things?

01:01:21.359 --> 01:01:24.459
And brainstorming with each other
and coming up with eventually the

01:01:24.459 --> 01:01:25.769
idea of the sort of Tupperware thing.

01:01:27.569 --> 01:01:28.349
How did you do it?

01:01:31.974 --> 01:01:34.974
Ginny Jordan: Well, some of it was, you
know, the minute you work in another

01:01:34.974 --> 01:01:38.714
culture, you've got to be humble because
you don't really know what you're doing.

01:01:39.304 --> 01:01:40.034
You really don't.

01:01:40.654 --> 01:01:44.764
And to assume that we as sort of
my partner and I, 2 white women

01:01:44.764 --> 01:01:47.994
really had a handle on, you know,
how things worked in Africa.

01:01:47.994 --> 01:01:51.204
I mean, within the 1st, months,
we're encountering all kinds of

01:01:51.204 --> 01:01:54.294
corruption and things that were
so shocking, upsetting to us.

01:01:54.294 --> 01:01:56.274
And it was like, well, wait a minute here.

01:01:56.274 --> 01:01:57.174
This is a way of life.

01:01:57.184 --> 01:01:58.194
How do you work with that?

01:01:58.704 --> 01:01:59.744
What are our values?

01:01:59.744 --> 01:02:00.324
How do we.

01:02:00.989 --> 01:02:05.279
Inject that without asserting that
as a way to grow an organization.

01:02:05.319 --> 01:02:07.129
So it was a huge learning curve.

01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:08.789
You know, we made mistakes.

01:02:08.789 --> 01:02:11.539
We did amazingly exciting things.

01:02:11.539 --> 01:02:17.799
We partnered with all kinds of British
airlines would fly the, you know, all

01:02:17.799 --> 01:02:22.619
their use magazines and give them to
us and, you know, Habitat for Humanity.

01:02:22.619 --> 01:02:25.149
We had a partnership with them
and we bought a piece of land.

01:02:25.149 --> 01:02:28.809
We made, we were very made serious profit.

01:02:29.334 --> 01:02:32.644
In our early years, when we
were just simply a profit making

01:02:33.004 --> 01:02:36.544
organization and you know, what
do we do with this extra money?

01:02:36.544 --> 01:02:38.124
We can't just sort of park it.

01:02:38.814 --> 01:02:42.744
So we bought, we bought land and then
the women built their own village.

01:02:42.784 --> 01:02:44.794
You know, we got partnerships.

01:02:44.804 --> 01:02:46.014
So there was sweat in the game.

01:02:46.014 --> 01:02:48.694
So we had some core principles
that we really believed in.

01:02:49.144 --> 01:02:54.534
But the, the, the course of that.

01:02:54.879 --> 01:02:58.749
You know, river, so to speak, just
took us down some wild rapids of

01:02:58.859 --> 01:03:03.979
just rapid learning and mistakes, and
we would regroup and we were smart

01:03:03.979 --> 01:03:05.499
enough to know what we didn't know.

01:03:05.999 --> 01:03:08.339
And that probably was
why we were successful.

01:03:08.849 --> 01:03:12.049
Rupert Isaacson: Now you talk about
the, you know, you got on Oprah,

01:03:12.369 --> 01:03:15.829
you got on Oprah magazine and you
partnered with British Airways, you

01:03:15.839 --> 01:03:17.049
partnered with Habitat for Humanity.

01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:22.589
Well, look, I run nonprofits and I
know how difficult it is to get through

01:03:23.049 --> 01:03:24.829
Those particular types of doors.

01:03:25.459 --> 01:03:25.919
How'd you do it?

01:03:27.609 --> 01:03:30.399
Ginny Jordan: We were smart enough to
hire at a certain point, a full time

01:03:30.929 --> 01:03:34.659
social media, you know, marketing person.

01:03:35.179 --> 01:03:37.669
So we got on every major.

01:03:38.129 --> 01:03:40.949
TV, you know, good morning, America.

01:03:40.949 --> 01:03:46.009
You know, we were, we would go to New
York and, you know, and at the time,

01:03:46.049 --> 01:03:52.399
Rupert, it was the story to be told now,
you know, fair trade products connected

01:03:52.399 --> 01:03:56.149
to, you know, communities, you know, is.

01:03:56.624 --> 01:04:01.334
Pretty much out there, you know, and I,
I don't think we would do nearly so well.

01:04:01.334 --> 01:04:06.464
Now we were right at the beginning, 17
years ago of, wow, look at this product.

01:04:06.474 --> 01:04:09.134
Now I'm going to, it's less about
selling you a product, but I'm

01:04:09.134 --> 01:04:14.614
going to tell you the story of
these women and they carried story.

01:04:14.624 --> 01:04:19.084
And then the women that would host the
parties to sell them would take that

01:04:19.094 --> 01:04:21.084
story as though it was theirs as well.

01:04:22.334 --> 01:04:28.014
And then that became a way in which story
could move through a product, you know,

01:04:28.014 --> 01:04:32.194
yes, they're beautiful and lovely where
it started getting painful and difficult

01:04:32.234 --> 01:04:37.074
when we had to keep kind of coming up
with the next cool marketing thing that

01:04:37.074 --> 01:04:41.054
was not in our hearts, you know, to like,
Oh, now we got the mother's day products.

01:04:41.054 --> 01:04:45.134
And that was never a product
product first organization.

01:04:45.134 --> 01:04:47.714
That was a means to a
larger end, which was.

01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:53.959
To tell the story and for these women
to find ways to elevate themselves with

01:04:54.069 --> 01:04:57.749
pride and dignity and dollars in the bank.

01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:03.889
So how we did it was you know,
really deep, deep listening

01:05:03.899 --> 01:05:06.639
to sort of the right course.

01:05:06.639 --> 01:05:10.619
And the one that was already kind
of in our face that we just had to

01:05:10.629 --> 01:05:12.339
recognize that was part of the work.

01:05:12.609 --> 01:05:14.339
It's like, oh, these women.

01:05:14.339 --> 01:05:16.869
And when you really looked at
what they were about, there

01:05:16.869 --> 01:05:18.789
was zero issue with motivation.

01:05:19.409 --> 01:05:22.409
We didn't even need to go
into that door whatsoever.

01:05:22.799 --> 01:05:25.099
Big issue around dignity and confidence.

01:05:26.019 --> 01:05:28.709
So then we had to map what's
the landscape of confidence.

01:05:29.369 --> 01:05:32.899
How do you build confidence when
you're told your whole life you're

01:05:32.899 --> 01:05:36.229
poor and you need a hundred dollars to
even think about starting a business.

01:05:36.229 --> 01:05:38.949
We had to dispel that mythos.

01:05:39.869 --> 01:05:41.659
And say, no, how did you dispel that?

01:05:42.619 --> 01:05:45.579
You know, the 1st, modular of
the curriculum, as we talk about

01:05:45.579 --> 01:05:49.899
assets, you know, 1st of all,
you're the most important asset.

01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:54.099
You, the, you, the woman, and then,
well, what do you have in your hut?

01:05:54.149 --> 01:05:56.629
Oh, I've got a, I've got
an iron in the corner.

01:05:56.629 --> 01:05:57.799
I haven't used in years.

01:05:57.899 --> 01:05:58.429
Okay.

01:05:58.844 --> 01:06:02.394
That's an asset really grassroots.

01:06:02.444 --> 01:06:03.264
That's an asset.

01:06:03.304 --> 01:06:07.734
Oh, you've got, you know, cassava
growing in the lot plot next door.

01:06:07.774 --> 01:06:09.104
Here, there's your next asset.

01:06:09.704 --> 01:06:14.304
So kind of dispelling the myth that you
suddenly have to have a hundred dollars.

01:06:14.304 --> 01:06:15.444
You got to go out and borrow it.

01:06:15.684 --> 01:06:17.184
No, you grow that asset.

01:06:17.184 --> 01:06:19.614
And then, you know, we put them
in groups with each other where

01:06:19.614 --> 01:06:21.064
they're coaches for each other.

01:06:21.834 --> 01:06:24.914
So, you know, I'm, I'm coach
Jenny and I'm saying to coach

01:06:24.924 --> 01:06:27.504
Evelyn, you know, you can do that.

01:06:27.534 --> 01:06:28.814
We're, we're mapping.

01:06:29.234 --> 01:06:37.034
Confidence and a deep sense of this
is possible because that's not that's

01:06:37.044 --> 01:06:41.024
not rooted deeply in a very poor
culture like where we were working.

01:06:41.024 --> 01:06:42.054
It's just simply not.

01:06:42.524 --> 01:06:42.894
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:06:42.934 --> 01:06:44.914
And that, but you can't just
cheerlead people, right?

01:06:44.914 --> 01:06:48.544
So for example, if you say, okay, you've
got this iron or you've got this cassava

01:06:48.544 --> 01:06:50.084
that's growing, these are your assets.

01:06:50.364 --> 01:06:53.924
How do you teach them?

01:06:54.044 --> 01:06:58.619
Show somebody who doesn't Know how
to use that as an asset, how to,

01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:00.059
what are the nuts and bolts of that?

01:07:01.459 --> 01:07:03.309
Ginny Jordan: Well, we would
go with them to market.

01:07:03.744 --> 01:07:04.104
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:07:04.784 --> 01:07:07.804
Ginny Jordan: Sell, sell, go,
go together and sell the goods.

01:07:08.584 --> 01:07:12.124
And then, you know, one of the, one
of the modulars of the curriculum

01:07:12.394 --> 01:07:15.354
is they're each given, you know,
the equivalent of 20 bucks.

01:07:16.134 --> 01:07:19.244
And then they get to observe how
they spent the money toward the

01:07:19.244 --> 01:07:21.504
business that they finally decided.

01:07:21.504 --> 01:07:26.514
And it's a process to look at what your
talent is and what your assets are so

01:07:26.514 --> 01:07:27.814
that you're going to be successful.

01:07:28.334 --> 01:07:31.744
So if you think you've got some
talent sewing, okay, how the hell are

01:07:31.744 --> 01:07:32.824
you going to get a sewing machine?

01:07:33.594 --> 01:07:35.014
How is that going to be doing?

01:07:35.024 --> 01:07:36.954
We'd walk them through right?

01:07:37.224 --> 01:07:39.554
The way the pathway to be able to do that.

01:07:40.054 --> 01:07:43.394
And so they would certain
point get 20 dollars.

01:07:43.394 --> 01:07:44.964
Then they come back and reflect on.

01:07:45.024 --> 01:07:48.524
Oh, I think I made a mistake because
I gave, you know, half of it to my

01:07:48.524 --> 01:07:53.044
uncle to build me a vegetable stall
and he just flaked off with it.

01:07:53.674 --> 01:07:53.994
Oops.

01:07:54.839 --> 01:07:58.989
Right, so just learning on the ground,
I mean, really just we're talking really

01:07:58.989 --> 01:08:04.019
grassroots learning and being completely
accompanied in the learning process.

01:08:04.149 --> 01:08:07.369
So that, you know, they're
assured that they're actually.

01:08:07.699 --> 01:08:11.419
Going to be successful and, you
know, we've we've had, you know,

01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:13.069
I can't remember the name of.

01:08:14.009 --> 01:08:17.369
Wharton Business School, they did a
huge analysis of our organization.

01:08:17.389 --> 01:08:20.329
And, you know, we have serious,
we spent a lot of time doing

01:08:20.679 --> 01:08:22.719
really rounded data analysis.

01:08:22.729 --> 01:08:23.929
So it's not just narratives.

01:08:24.409 --> 01:08:26.209
I'm not just telling you lovely stories.

01:08:26.689 --> 01:08:31.959
And we had 85 percent success rate of
women permanently getting out of poverty.

01:08:32.949 --> 01:08:33.819
Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question.

01:08:34.609 --> 01:08:41.099
So one would expect, let's say,
There's an entrepreneur out there and

01:08:41.109 --> 01:08:45.519
that entrepreneur feels a sense of
mission and goes and helps poor people

01:08:45.529 --> 01:08:52.449
become entrepreneurs You had come out
of counterculture Radical feminism

01:08:52.449 --> 01:08:59.169
radical everything become a Therapist
become a mother now suddenly you're

01:08:59.169 --> 01:09:01.319
an entrepreneur coaching entrepreneurs

01:09:03.739 --> 01:09:04.909
from what background and how

01:09:05.529 --> 01:09:10.909
Ginny Jordan: I would say little
background, very little background, but

01:09:11.099 --> 01:09:13.569
definitely enough of the right attitude.

01:09:13.569 --> 01:09:18.249
And as I said, illness set me
on a very particular course.

01:09:18.849 --> 01:09:21.089
Rupert Isaacson: What made
you able as someone who hadn't

01:09:21.139 --> 01:09:22.389
engaged as an entrepreneur?

01:09:22.829 --> 01:09:25.929
I mean, of course, everyone who runs their
own business, you have been running a

01:09:25.929 --> 01:09:27.579
successful therapy business at that point.

01:09:27.789 --> 01:09:29.849
So of course you were an
entrepreneur to that degree, but

01:09:29.849 --> 01:09:30.234
what made you able to do that?

01:09:30.864 --> 01:09:34.394
What we think of in terms of the
cliche of an entrepreneur made

01:09:37.554 --> 01:09:44.704
you feel that you had the tools for this
Why didn't you feel that you were the

01:09:44.704 --> 01:09:48.104
one needing with that myth of I need
the hundred bucks, you know what I mean?

01:09:48.754 --> 01:09:49.174
Right.

01:09:49.394 --> 01:09:50.014
What what?

01:09:50.694 --> 01:09:53.774
Where do you those tools from and where
did you get the practical business tools

01:09:53.784 --> 01:09:56.454
from of showing them how to create assets?

01:09:56.914 --> 01:09:59.264
When you had actually come
from rather a different world

01:10:00.699 --> 01:10:06.249
Ginny Jordan: Well, we, we knew
which women tend to know is that

01:10:06.249 --> 01:10:11.619
it's a collaboration and that it's
not a hierarchy and that, you know,

01:10:11.619 --> 01:10:16.269
we really were smart enough to know
where our talent was and where it

01:10:16.269 --> 01:10:18.009
wasn't and we got the right talent.

01:10:18.939 --> 01:10:22.879
We, we had a business manager that, you
know, really taught us in many ways.

01:10:23.514 --> 01:10:28.054
My partner was also a therapist,
so, I mean, we, we used to laugh,

01:10:28.054 --> 01:10:31.814
say, well, we're kind of the bozos
here, you know, like, but, but what

01:10:31.814 --> 01:10:37.844
we brought to the table was the
vision was the capacity, right?

01:10:37.994 --> 01:10:39.384
To stay with it.

01:10:39.384 --> 01:10:40.474
We knew we had that.

01:10:40.634 --> 01:10:46.824
Drive we also understood what
fundamentally women need the language

01:10:46.824 --> 01:10:51.804
of the feminine, like these women, when
you've really listened and watched,

01:10:51.844 --> 01:10:56.514
they're constantly dancing and constantly
singing, even through their suffering,

01:10:57.054 --> 01:11:02.124
even through their wailing to having just
lost a child you know, to dehydration.

01:11:02.134 --> 01:11:06.124
It's like, you know, shocking,
shocking for us to like, how, how

01:11:06.124 --> 01:11:07.734
are you managing that level of grief?

01:11:08.204 --> 01:11:10.214
They, you know, they do it together.

01:11:10.729 --> 01:11:15.329
And observing that and understanding
like how, you know, we, I can't

01:11:15.329 --> 01:11:19.019
tell you how many parties we hosted,
how many dances it was like, oh,

01:11:19.019 --> 01:11:20.159
we brought so much celebrate.

01:11:20.169 --> 01:11:22.959
They taught us so much about that, right.

01:11:22.969 --> 01:11:26.429
And we kind of could, we could, you
know, as women, we could feel what

01:11:26.429 --> 01:11:31.369
it is that women are about and we
are a collective and we do have that.

01:11:31.899 --> 01:11:34.489
I'm not saying men
don't, but we've got, um.

01:11:35.049 --> 01:11:41.069
Different kind of wider capacity and easy
for me to say, I with no shame whatsoever.

01:11:41.349 --> 01:11:42.729
We are bozos.

01:11:43.179 --> 01:11:47.909
We do not know how to do this, but boy,
do we know some amazing people who do.

01:11:48.339 --> 01:11:52.699
And then what happened, which was part
of the magic part of it was the right

01:11:52.699 --> 01:11:54.169
people show up at the right time.

01:11:54.169 --> 01:11:57.099
When you're clear, it's
almost like a law of gravity.

01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:00.919
Suddenly there they are at the door and
said, I'm going to help you with this.

01:12:00.919 --> 01:12:01.099
Thanks.

01:12:01.519 --> 01:12:02.489
I'm going to help you with this.

01:12:02.559 --> 01:12:05.189
Rupert Isaacson: Were you consciously
saying, like, I remember I had

01:12:05.189 --> 01:12:08.609
this moment with my son when I
was sort of standing in a field.

01:12:09.174 --> 01:12:13.104
Not knowing what to do when he was
at the height of his severity and I

01:12:13.104 --> 01:12:15.704
was rousing I don't I need a mentor.

01:12:15.764 --> 01:12:20.444
I need who can who is it
who can show me what to do?

01:12:20.844 --> 01:12:23.864
Because I don't know and
then I was thinking okay.

01:12:23.914 --> 01:12:26.664
Well, who who would this
mentor be and my imagination?

01:12:26.664 --> 01:12:28.424
Well, it has to be someone
who's autistic right?

01:12:28.424 --> 01:12:33.054
Because otherwise, whatever they've got
is an opinion not not experience and

01:12:33.054 --> 01:12:36.674
then, you know, they had to start it
where my son started and somehow made it.

01:12:36.704 --> 01:12:37.424
Who's that person?

01:12:37.424 --> 01:12:38.794
I went, oh, actually that's Dr.

01:12:38.794 --> 01:12:42.334
Temple Grandin, you know, and then I,
I went to her and asked for mentorship.

01:12:42.624 --> 01:12:43.974
Was it kind of like that?

01:12:43.974 --> 01:12:48.084
Were you going, okay, shit, you know,
who are going to be our mentors here and

01:12:48.084 --> 01:12:50.104
how do we actively go out to find them?

01:12:50.704 --> 01:12:51.404
Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.

01:12:51.494 --> 01:12:52.364
That's exactly it.

01:12:52.964 --> 01:12:53.294
Yep.

01:12:53.624 --> 01:12:56.244
And, you know, it requires a
willingness to be kind of humble

01:12:56.244 --> 01:12:59.864
enough to know, whoa, we really
don't, we don't know how to do that.

01:13:00.294 --> 01:13:04.364
The woman that helped us develop
this, I mean, rock solid curriculum

01:13:04.884 --> 01:13:07.874
which we finally figured out
after years that that was our real

01:13:07.874 --> 01:13:09.894
talent is we knew the ingredients.

01:13:10.764 --> 01:13:11.094
Right.

01:13:11.094 --> 01:13:12.434
It wasn't about selling beads.

01:13:12.434 --> 01:13:13.824
It was actually the ingredients.

01:13:13.964 --> 01:13:16.994
As I said, one of the key ingredients
is building that landscape of

01:13:16.994 --> 01:13:21.944
confidence, which seems sort of
abstract and somewhat irrelevant.

01:13:21.944 --> 01:13:23.144
It isn't, that's the key.

01:13:23.224 --> 01:13:25.854
And we, we knew that we saw
that over and over again.

01:13:25.854 --> 01:13:31.454
And she had this amazing way of breaking
this whole thing down into a sequenced

01:13:31.964 --> 01:13:33.954
curriculum that built on itself.

01:13:34.489 --> 01:13:38.079
That embedded in it were all
these principles and then the

01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:42.649
real practicalities involved in,
in actually creating businesses.

01:13:43.259 --> 01:13:44.449
That are sustainable,

01:13:44.739 --> 01:13:45.599
Rupert Isaacson: who was this mentor

01:13:48.259 --> 01:13:51.509
Ginny Jordan: to a woman that we
found, you know, and you know, I

01:13:51.549 --> 01:13:52.709
don't know what more to say about her.

01:13:52.709 --> 01:13:56.439
She probably wouldn't want to be named
because she's, she's very, she's very,

01:13:56.859 --> 01:13:59.619
Rupert Isaacson: everyone will
be, you know, contacting her.

01:13:59.634 --> 01:14:04.044
Ginny Jordan: Maybe, but, you know,
she's, she's extraordinary and, you

01:14:04.044 --> 01:14:08.294
know, emerges an amazing leader and
willingness to fly to country to

01:14:08.294 --> 01:14:10.064
country to country, you know, and we

01:14:10.064 --> 01:14:14.004
Rupert Isaacson: already knew, or was
it someone that you sought out who kind

01:14:14.004 --> 01:14:19.454
of popped into your path once you'd
sort of thrown out to the universe?

01:14:20.184 --> 01:14:21.184
Come on, God, where's my mentor?

01:14:22.014 --> 01:14:22.264
Ginny Jordan: Yes.

01:14:22.784 --> 01:14:24.784
Yeah, we didn't know, we didn't know her.

01:14:25.394 --> 01:14:29.084
We knew people who might know
people, but again, it's just that

01:14:29.084 --> 01:14:32.944
process that we all go through
and are ready to really reach out.

01:14:32.974 --> 01:14:36.884
And, but you know, you gotta, you gotta
shoot that arrow with utter clarity.

01:14:36.884 --> 01:14:41.434
I learned that years and years, years
of working, you know, different,

01:14:41.764 --> 01:14:43.514
different forms of manifestation.

01:14:43.514 --> 01:14:45.334
That the clarity is key.

01:14:45.814 --> 01:14:48.184
It's not that you have to have
everything, but, you know, what

01:14:48.184 --> 01:14:49.494
are you really shooting for

01:14:49.764 --> 01:14:50.084
Rupert Isaacson: clarity?

01:14:50.204 --> 01:14:51.614
And the really,

01:14:51.984 --> 01:14:55.404
Ginny Jordan: yeah, we were really
shooting for a big goal, a big hairy goal,

01:14:55.404 --> 01:15:01.194
which was, you know, in a 10 year period
of time, a million women permanently

01:15:01.204 --> 01:15:05.784
out of poverty and you know, we had very
particular parameters to what that meant.

01:15:11.719 --> 01:15:15.329
Rupert Isaacson: By the way, read I'll say
readers because I'm an author, listeners,

01:15:15.729 --> 01:15:20.689
don't worry if you're trying to manifest
and you're feeling murky and unclear

01:15:21.739 --> 01:15:23.459
and you're shooting unclear arrows.

01:15:23.709 --> 01:15:24.599
You've got to do that too.

01:15:25.459 --> 01:15:26.029
Absolutely.

01:15:26.489 --> 01:15:27.519
That you've got to shoot.

01:15:27.519 --> 01:15:28.169
You've got a knife

01:15:28.169 --> 01:15:28.979
Ginny Jordan: at the target.

01:15:29.379 --> 01:15:29.709
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:15:30.409 --> 01:15:31.299
Ginny Jordan: They got to fail.

01:15:31.339 --> 01:15:32.759
You know, we failed a lot.

01:15:33.124 --> 01:15:36.894
There are some big mistakes we made
that look back, I'm just kind of

01:15:36.894 --> 01:15:40.754
horrified, but, you know, boy, did
it get us on the right course, you

01:15:40.754 --> 01:15:43.604
know, you just course correct if
you're determined which we were.

01:15:44.764 --> 01:15:48.914
Rupert Isaacson: Two other things that
you did which I can speak to is right

01:15:48.914 --> 01:15:53.254
at the time that you were doing this the
work that I was doing with the Bushmen

01:15:53.254 --> 01:15:58.124
in the Kalahari, the Khoisan Bushmen
on their land claims rights came along.

01:15:58.414 --> 01:15:59.674
And you.

01:16:00.534 --> 01:16:03.294
acted as a philanthropist to us.

01:16:03.324 --> 01:16:06.054
You, you, you helped us to get going.

01:16:06.924 --> 01:16:13.094
And listeners, what happened was
as a result of that early support

01:16:13.294 --> 01:16:20.304
two key hunter gatherer groups in
Southern Africa collectively won the

01:16:20.304 --> 01:16:25.724
five largest land claims in African
history with very little money up

01:16:25.724 --> 01:16:28.744
against seemingly impossible odds.

01:16:29.624 --> 01:16:31.214
So that was my experience.

01:16:31.214 --> 01:16:33.169
Also, if you're Influence.

01:16:33.219 --> 01:16:37.119
And then also at that, shortly
after that, I, I began the

01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:39.359
work with Horseboy Foundation.

01:16:40.329 --> 01:16:42.099
And you supported that too.

01:16:42.509 --> 01:16:46.589
While also going through all
the stuff with Bead for Life and

01:16:46.589 --> 01:16:50.429
then moving into this other very
important work with climate change.

01:16:51.129 --> 01:16:54.379
And I remember you beginning to
talk to me about climate change.

01:16:54.964 --> 01:16:59.804
When people weren't, I mean, it's not
that it wasn't around at all, but we

01:16:59.804 --> 01:17:06.054
all know, you know, we all know that
the conversation has really only become

01:17:07.244 --> 01:17:09.064
properly, properly, properly mainstream.

01:17:09.354 --> 01:17:16.094
I think since COVID, I think that
pre that was still more or less on

01:17:16.094 --> 01:17:19.084
the margins and the times that you,
when you were talking about it and

01:17:19.094 --> 01:17:20.724
getting really actively involved.

01:17:20.724 --> 01:17:22.784
I think most people were still.

01:17:23.564 --> 01:17:29.254
trying to turn a blind eye and you've
been very influential in helping them see

01:17:29.834 --> 01:17:34.594
a glaring light of, of all the pimples
and warts et cetera, through a series

01:17:34.594 --> 01:17:41.554
of extraordinary films that have had an
amazing, um, influence on also getting

01:17:41.554 --> 01:17:42.994
policy changes and things like that.

01:17:43.464 --> 01:17:47.494
Can you tell us about Chasing Ice
and Chasing Coral, how you got

01:17:47.494 --> 01:17:51.194
involved in those movies, what those
movies were, still are, they're out

01:17:51.194 --> 01:17:52.234
there, people should watch them.

01:17:52.644 --> 01:17:54.669
And what, what they did.

01:17:57.049 --> 01:17:59.779
Ginny Jordan: Yeah, well, I'll
begin with chasing ice because

01:17:59.779 --> 01:18:02.359
that was really my my initiation.

01:18:02.449 --> 01:18:07.039
I, you know, have the good fortune of
Jim Balogh, who the film is about is

01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:11.399
a National Geographic, post National
Geographic photographer, who's really

01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:16.969
spent most of his career documenting,
documenting, we'll call it change.

01:18:16.969 --> 01:18:17.549
And then it.

01:18:18.449 --> 01:18:23.229
Species change extinction and climate
to be kind of became more and more his

01:18:23.269 --> 01:18:27.799
passion and particularly climate is
being observed through on glaciers.

01:18:28.959 --> 01:18:33.089
So, being a good friend and being
pretty intrigued and I did some

01:18:33.089 --> 01:18:36.979
supporting up of his organization
called extreme ice survey.

01:18:37.774 --> 01:18:41.474
What he did is he, he designed
and built cameras that could

01:18:41.474 --> 01:18:43.064
withstand high temperatures.

01:18:43.154 --> 01:18:46.844
I mean, cold temperatures and
high winds on glaciers, and

01:18:46.844 --> 01:18:48.484
it would operate time lapse.

01:18:48.484 --> 01:18:51.794
So they would be basically
running themselves.

01:18:52.519 --> 01:18:57.499
And he put these, he put these all over
the glaciers, Iceland and Greenland,

01:18:57.499 --> 01:19:01.749
and eventually parts of America and
Switzerland all over the world and

01:19:01.749 --> 01:19:07.049
Antarctica eventually to try to document
in real time climate change and these

01:19:07.089 --> 01:19:09.359
time lapse images that are astounding.

01:19:09.369 --> 01:19:13.449
And if people haven't seen the
film, it's, it's so worth watching.

01:19:13.829 --> 01:19:17.679
It's an old story now in many
ways but it was the first.

01:19:18.079 --> 01:19:21.949
Real, it was like eyeballs on the
glacier eyeballs on climate change.

01:19:21.959 --> 01:19:24.579
It was not political, nothing about it.

01:19:24.579 --> 01:19:25.799
It was political.

01:19:25.799 --> 01:19:28.099
It's like, take a look here.

01:19:28.099 --> 01:19:29.669
It is it's in your face now.

01:19:29.669 --> 01:19:34.709
And what you see rapidly in a time lapse,
you'll see a whole sequence of frames

01:19:34.709 --> 01:19:38.177
where the glacier was kind of, you know,
right in front in front and all of a

01:19:38.177 --> 01:19:42.759
sudden it's receded, but it looks, you
know, like equivalent of a mile and a.

01:19:43.189 --> 01:19:44.489
X number year period.

01:19:44.489 --> 01:19:46.279
And it's like, you can't argue with that.

01:19:46.799 --> 01:19:50.869
So it was a brilliant and very
determined mission that he had.

01:19:50.869 --> 01:19:51.759
I loved it.

01:19:51.779 --> 01:19:55.969
You know, I went to Greenland, I
was in those helicopters flying over

01:19:55.969 --> 01:20:00.799
the glacier and you know, that was
whatever it was 15 some years ago.

01:20:00.799 --> 01:20:03.009
And it, I had that privilege.

01:20:03.699 --> 01:20:07.309
And it was a privilege it
was massively depressing.

01:20:07.429 --> 01:20:10.289
I came home and practically
couldn't get out of bed for three

01:20:10.289 --> 01:20:15.299
weeks because I saw the level of
glacial melt from that perspective.

01:20:15.299 --> 01:20:19.179
And it was just very easy for me
to translate that to sea rise.

01:20:19.909 --> 01:20:24.849
It just was just simple
equation and it was shocking.

01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:29.129
And so that really launched my
commitment to the, to trying to

01:20:29.129 --> 01:20:32.459
tell the story of climate change
and trying to kind of wake us up.

01:20:33.104 --> 01:20:36.764
You know, Al Gore certainly did
that and inconvenient truth is just,

01:20:37.074 --> 01:20:38.524
you know, those first beginning.

01:20:38.914 --> 01:20:39.984
Let's tell the truth.

01:20:39.984 --> 01:20:43.724
What's really happening chasing the
other films came along because I love

01:20:43.724 --> 01:20:46.004
film, you know, I think next life.

01:20:46.004 --> 01:20:48.294
I might I might go into movies.

01:20:48.534 --> 01:20:49.034
Let's see.

01:20:49.464 --> 01:20:51.334
It's like I love to edit.

01:20:51.394 --> 01:20:55.544
I love being behind a camera and looking
at how to tell the story and how to

01:20:55.544 --> 01:20:57.364
tell it in the best possible way.

01:20:57.844 --> 01:21:00.894
So that was part of my just selfish.

01:21:01.824 --> 01:21:06.244
It's like, get me in the room when
we're especially editing film to

01:21:06.484 --> 01:21:08.674
sort of see what I could bring to it.

01:21:08.674 --> 01:21:14.694
And again, films are huge number of people
as a whole team, but that's been a real

01:21:14.694 --> 01:21:17.184
privilege for me to work on these films.

01:21:17.184 --> 01:21:22.178
And then they morphed into, I've got very
close to the director of chasing eyes,

01:21:22.178 --> 01:21:24.859
a young, amazing man, Jeff Orlowski.

01:21:25.619 --> 01:21:32.219
And exposure labs and we worked on a film,
probably many of your, your listeners

01:21:32.449 --> 01:21:36.889
have watched, which is called the social
dilemma, trying to tell that story of

01:21:37.069 --> 01:21:38.569
Rupert Isaacson: before we
get to the social dilemma.

01:21:38.979 --> 01:21:39.489
Ginny Jordan: Okay.

01:21:39.829 --> 01:21:40.169
Rupert Isaacson: Coral.

01:21:40.239 --> 01:21:41.279
Tell us about chasing coral.

01:21:42.059 --> 01:21:45.479
Ginny Jordan: You know, obviously
the same story from now, now, not on

01:21:45.499 --> 01:21:50.389
top of a mountain, but down under the
ocean and, and really looking at the,

01:21:50.559 --> 01:21:54.509
the story of climate change and the
warming of the oceans through coral.

01:21:54.989 --> 01:21:58.589
And that was actually not a
good film until we worked our

01:21:58.599 --> 01:22:00.089
asses off to figure out how to.

01:22:00.089 --> 01:22:00.239
so much.

01:22:00.519 --> 01:22:05.109
Help everyone fall in love with
coral and understand, you know, it's

01:22:05.119 --> 01:22:10.059
not just a concept that these, you
know, these are bleaching and dying

01:22:10.449 --> 01:22:11.899
these reefs all over the world.

01:22:11.899 --> 01:22:14.479
But like, why do you
want to love this coral?

01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:17.219
How critical it is to our ecosystem?

01:22:17.229 --> 01:22:21.954
So that was a very passionate film
and we found a wonderful young.

01:22:22.094 --> 01:22:26.114
Kid who was kind of a geek about oceans
that since he was a kid and he kind of

01:22:26.124 --> 01:22:30.694
ended up being the savior of that film
because we were, that was a hard story to

01:22:30.694 --> 01:22:36.094
tell to, to engage people in a way that
had a sense of adventure, like chasing

01:22:36.094 --> 01:22:38.094
ice has a great sense of adventure in it.

01:22:38.614 --> 01:22:41.009
And I think we got,
we're successful with it.

01:22:41.449 --> 01:22:44.329
You know, the films have
done really well, so

01:22:46.339 --> 01:22:49.079
they all, they all, they
all ended up in Congress.

01:22:49.519 --> 01:22:53.359
We found a great way to get them to
be shown with you know, they have

01:22:53.359 --> 01:22:58.329
a film series for Congress and all
of Congress, they all got copies.

01:22:58.329 --> 01:23:00.549
And, you know, that was a long time ago.

01:23:00.549 --> 01:23:03.049
And, you know, that was a huge awakening.

01:23:03.774 --> 01:23:04.864
At a political level,

01:23:05.014 --> 01:23:05.204
Rupert Isaacson: did

01:23:05.204 --> 01:23:06.614
Ginny Jordan: you ask me a policy?

01:23:06.614 --> 01:23:11.604
Rupert Isaacson: Did you see some tangible
results politically from those things

01:23:12.084 --> 01:23:13.774
from those films that things happened?

01:23:15.274 --> 01:23:15.554
Ginny Jordan: Yes.

01:23:15.554 --> 01:23:19.194
And no, you know, I don't think anybody
should make a film these days without

01:23:19.204 --> 01:23:23.594
having a really developed impact strategy
because films come and go so quickly.

01:23:23.964 --> 01:23:25.984
So, you know, what's your impact strategy?

01:23:25.984 --> 01:23:27.244
How are you going to actually.

01:23:27.459 --> 01:23:31.879
Move it out into the world in what
way, and with chasing ice and coral,

01:23:31.879 --> 01:23:36.329
we decided to go to some of these
districts, Republican districts that

01:23:36.329 --> 01:23:38.049
didn't even believe in climate change.

01:23:38.519 --> 01:23:42.329
And we came up with a strategy that we
would just saturate those communities,

01:23:42.359 --> 01:23:45.749
you know, from the chamber of commerce
to the kids in the high schools that

01:23:45.749 --> 01:23:49.399
would go home and tell their parents
this movie they saw, you know, we just

01:23:49.469 --> 01:23:53.819
soaked them and we did get some of those
districts to actually go to the Change

01:23:53.819 --> 01:23:58.489
their position on climate, but it was
a very arduous and expensive strategy.

01:23:59.019 --> 01:24:04.119
And so, yes, we certainly had
impact and it's very hard to

01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:05.469
measure the impact of films.

01:24:06.089 --> 01:24:09.179
You know, there's all these studies
on, like, how many inputs you

01:24:09.189 --> 01:24:13.494
need to actually take an action
and it's often a minimum of 6.

01:24:14.154 --> 01:24:15.304
So you've got to read about it.

01:24:15.314 --> 01:24:16.194
You've got to see it.

01:24:16.214 --> 01:24:18.514
You've got to talk to a friend about it.

01:24:18.514 --> 01:24:22.694
You've got to have a parent, you know,
talk to the kid about, you know, that you

01:24:22.704 --> 01:24:25.334
need inputs in order to actually get from.

01:24:25.744 --> 01:24:26.754
That's interesting.

01:24:26.754 --> 01:24:27.244
Okay.

01:24:27.244 --> 01:24:31.054
Well, I'm back to my day to
actually, actually, you know,

01:24:31.054 --> 01:24:32.484
contributing in some way.

01:24:33.934 --> 01:24:35.374
It's, it's complicated,

01:24:35.744 --> 01:24:36.034
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:24:36.364 --> 01:24:37.764
But you did get to Congress.

01:24:37.844 --> 01:24:37.864
Yeah.

01:24:38.284 --> 01:24:38.314
Ginny Jordan: And,

01:24:38.794 --> 01:24:41.544
Rupert Isaacson: I do know
myself how powerful that can be.

01:24:41.554 --> 01:24:45.024
I remember when we got in front of the
Congressional Human Rights Caucus with

01:24:45.024 --> 01:24:49.024
the Bushmen, and suddenly you had these
guys speaking directly to congressmen,

01:24:49.024 --> 01:24:52.724
and they could see these people who'd
been tortured and kicked off their land

01:24:52.724 --> 01:24:54.564
for diamonds, you know, in front of them.

01:24:54.864 --> 01:24:58.084
And then things began to
happen from that point.

01:24:58.134 --> 01:25:01.444
So, now tell us about The Social Dilemma.

01:25:01.494 --> 01:25:03.994
That was a really,
really interesting film.

01:25:04.729 --> 01:25:08.259
And remains a really, really interesting
film because I think it's all these

01:25:08.259 --> 01:25:09.449
films are still relevant today.

01:25:09.449 --> 01:25:12.729
But I think this one is particularly
relevant to the youngest

01:25:12.729 --> 01:25:13.969
generation that's coming up.

01:25:14.069 --> 01:25:14.939
Tell us about that film

01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:20.759
Ginny Jordan: in terms of how
it was conceived or a lot.

01:25:21.724 --> 01:25:24.664
Well, I think, you know, again,
the same director, you know,

01:25:24.674 --> 01:25:25.974
he talked to me about it.

01:25:26.034 --> 01:25:29.264
He, he was working on it and what
was the right angle and, you know,

01:25:29.264 --> 01:25:31.064
we kind of came up with this idea.

01:25:31.434 --> 01:25:33.254
We being many again and not just.

01:25:33.774 --> 01:25:39.174
A few of us that a good way to kind
of break through the, the resistance

01:25:39.354 --> 01:25:43.434
would be to actually have the guy
that invented the like button on

01:25:43.444 --> 01:25:50.174
Facebook in front of a camera saying,
whoops, I didn't have any idea of.

01:25:50.449 --> 01:25:52.119
You know, I thought that was a cute idea.

01:25:52.279 --> 01:25:57.369
I had no idea that that could translate
to, you know, pre teen girl suicide

01:25:57.369 --> 01:26:03.799
rate going through the ceiling because,
you know, they got, you know, unliked

01:26:03.819 --> 01:26:06.109
by, you know, all their friends.

01:26:06.609 --> 01:26:11.189
And that drove them to suicide and
that trajectory was so shocking

01:26:11.309 --> 01:26:14.029
and is shocking, remains shocking.

01:26:14.029 --> 01:26:18.649
But, you know, that was the strategy
with that film is have the people

01:26:18.649 --> 01:26:20.679
that were somewhat innocently.

01:26:20.689 --> 01:26:24.929
I mean, not all participating in something
that has snowballed into something that

01:26:24.929 --> 01:26:27.399
is really seriously out of control.

01:26:28.049 --> 01:26:32.284
And I think the, again, that was a, I'm
not so sure that film would be as relevant

01:26:32.284 --> 01:26:36.194
in this moment because people know a
lot more now, but it was the real expose

01:26:36.524 --> 01:26:42.104
about how young people in particular
being manipulated financially and how

01:26:42.104 --> 01:26:44.044
they're actually gathering your data.

01:26:44.664 --> 01:26:47.534
And that was, you know, not
in everybody's awareness.

01:26:47.624 --> 01:26:52.554
Like, Oh, they actually know from the way
I shop and the way I communicate on sit,

01:26:52.564 --> 01:26:56.204
you know, they know if I'm an introvert
or if I'm an extrovert, Oh, they know

01:26:56.204 --> 01:26:58.084
if I'll buy this, but I won't buy that.

01:26:58.479 --> 01:27:04.619
Oh, they know, I mean, and whoa, you
know, and that sense of of exposure

01:27:04.619 --> 01:27:09.709
and vulnerability of how much, you
know, you know, AI knows about you.

01:27:09.709 --> 01:27:13.329
And so that was a great
way to tell that story.

01:27:13.329 --> 01:27:15.989
And we worked hard to try
to figure out how to do it.

01:27:15.989 --> 01:27:20.439
It's kind of a hybrid film because there's
a theatrical piece within a documentary

01:27:20.859 --> 01:27:22.809
that would hybrid model was new.

01:27:23.489 --> 01:27:29.209
Not all films have tried that
and it was relatively successful

01:27:30.019 --> 01:27:31.169
because it was real time.

01:27:31.169 --> 01:27:34.829
You see a family really struggling with
the issues and then you're listening to,

01:27:35.509 --> 01:27:41.119
you know, the, the guy that ran Facebook
or Tristan, who was kind of amazing

01:27:41.959 --> 01:27:46.289
leader in the field of social media
exposure and what is the harm it's causing

01:27:47.959 --> 01:27:49.899
Rupert Isaacson: the guy who
invented the like button.

01:27:50.504 --> 01:27:51.194
I'm

01:27:52.284 --> 01:27:53.384
Ginny Jordan: trying to remember his name.

01:27:53.604 --> 01:27:54.004
Rupert Isaacson: I've tried.

01:27:54.054 --> 01:27:54.384
Yeah.

01:27:54.874 --> 01:27:57.794
And it's so interesting is that we know
the like button, but we can't remember

01:27:57.794 --> 01:28:02.104
the name of the guy who, you know, I
remember watching the movie and seeing

01:28:02.114 --> 01:28:07.184
him being interviewed and saying, yeah,
look, we, we did just think that this

01:28:07.184 --> 01:28:08.704
might be something kind of entertaining.

01:28:08.704 --> 01:28:10.344
We had no idea.

01:28:10.344 --> 01:28:13.974
We had no idea at all that
it would become so dark.

01:28:14.574 --> 01:28:16.964
And initially we were just.

01:28:17.234 --> 01:28:21.294
Obviously excited by the success, but
we didn't think it would be anything

01:28:21.314 --> 01:28:24.894
other than entrepreneurial fad.

01:28:25.574 --> 01:28:29.074
And, and, you know, I think also
that a lot of these guys were

01:28:29.074 --> 01:28:31.244
just so into the technology.

01:28:31.244 --> 01:28:34.464
They were nerds who were just so
excited that their day had come.

01:28:34.874 --> 01:28:37.714
That it was, it was the revenge
of the nerds, Silicon Valley.

01:28:37.724 --> 01:28:38.174
It was.

01:28:38.644 --> 01:28:41.174
Suddenly all the kids that were getting,
who had been teased at school, who had

01:28:41.514 --> 01:28:44.894
not been, who had been the butt end of
the social scenes in their high schools,

01:28:44.894 --> 01:28:47.644
who would have been the ones actually
probably going off and getting depressed

01:28:47.644 --> 01:28:50.954
and perhaps killing themselves, you know,
in, before social media, just through

01:28:50.954 --> 01:28:52.414
straight up bullying and ostracism.

01:28:52.924 --> 01:28:54.804
Now suddenly they were the arbiters.

01:28:55.454 --> 01:29:00.864
And they didn't do it with this
Machiavellian plan to get even.

01:29:01.314 --> 01:29:06.059
They just were following the
brilliance of their technology

01:29:06.389 --> 01:29:08.079
and realizing people liked it.

01:29:08.079 --> 01:29:12.209
And then, oops we didn't realize
we'd invented the atomic bomb.

01:29:12.409 --> 01:29:16.759
And I think that's what really came
through from the movie when I watched it

01:29:16.769 --> 01:29:21.449
was that, you know, like with Oppenheimer,
for example, they knew absolutely

01:29:21.449 --> 01:29:24.129
what they were trying to develop and
why they were trying to develop it.

01:29:24.309 --> 01:29:27.629
And they knew exactly what
its evil potential was.

01:29:28.084 --> 01:29:33.434
And felt that, that they had to,
to stop this greater evil, not

01:29:33.684 --> 01:29:36.804
knowing that it could lead to
greater evils, but not seeing any

01:29:36.804 --> 01:29:38.784
alternative at the time and so on.

01:29:39.504 --> 01:29:43.104
Whereas that wasn't in any way
where these guys were coming from.

01:29:43.544 --> 01:29:47.484
They, they thought they were simply
providing entertainment and couldn't

01:29:47.494 --> 01:29:51.654
have dreamt that it would lead to the,

01:29:52.239 --> 01:29:56.079
Ginny Jordan: Yeah, well, it was more
essentially more than entertainment

01:29:56.439 --> 01:30:01.089
because, you know, they were
as confused as we've all become

01:30:01.139 --> 01:30:03.159
around this notion of connectivity.

01:30:04.524 --> 01:30:09.174
And so not really having a measure
at the time we have a better

01:30:09.174 --> 01:30:14.624
measurement now of the illusion of
connectivity and this whole notion of

01:30:14.624 --> 01:30:16.884
hyper connectivity as a high value.

01:30:17.284 --> 01:30:24.334
And what how that's actually, um,
deeply, deeply tearing cultural fabric.

01:30:24.899 --> 01:30:29.489
Out from underneath us, and
that's, that's the part that,

01:30:29.579 --> 01:30:30.799
you know, was short sighted.

01:30:30.799 --> 01:30:31.879
They couldn't see that.

01:30:31.899 --> 01:30:34.619
You know, we think we're getting
you more connected and actually

01:30:34.959 --> 01:30:36.659
something else is occurring as well.

01:30:36.669 --> 01:30:38.879
That's true at 1 level and another level.

01:30:39.329 --> 01:30:43.309
It's actually, it's actually taking
away your capacity to connect.

01:30:43.879 --> 01:30:44.249
Right?

01:30:44.889 --> 01:30:49.509
So, you know, how many young people
now know how to exactly like have

01:30:49.779 --> 01:30:53.709
build a conversation like you and I are
having, you know, how many people are

01:30:53.709 --> 01:30:57.489
really going to listen to this whole
long podcast, you know, you, right.

01:30:57.509 --> 01:30:59.819
We kind of want it, we
want it kind of quick.

01:30:59.819 --> 01:31:02.949
We want in a hyper way and,
you know, they couldn't have

01:31:02.969 --> 01:31:04.229
seen that they didn't see that.

01:31:04.739 --> 01:31:08.209
To your point, they thought it was
kind of fun and lovely and you're

01:31:08.209 --> 01:31:10.749
going to feel more connected because
someone's going to like you when

01:31:10.749 --> 01:31:12.609
you do something and that's so cool.

01:31:13.009 --> 01:31:19.969
No, it's embedded in a much deeper,
deeper, very more transparent problem

01:31:19.979 --> 01:31:21.859
now of where our culture is headed.

01:31:22.529 --> 01:31:25.659
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, it's interesting
because a lot of the work I do could not

01:31:25.709 --> 01:31:28.989
have existed, could not have found its
feet without social media, but that was

01:31:28.989 --> 01:31:30.609
before I even knew that it was active.

01:31:30.619 --> 01:31:33.789
So, for example, when we first
put out the small trailer when we

01:31:33.789 --> 01:31:36.519
were trying to raise funds to make
the documentary for The Horseboy.

01:31:37.119 --> 01:31:38.829
There was this new thing called YouTube.

01:31:38.829 --> 01:31:42.249
This was this 2006, I think
YouTube came out in 2005.

01:31:42.699 --> 01:31:47.219
And the young filmmaker, Michael Scott,
who I teamed up with to make the horse

01:31:47.219 --> 01:31:48.909
boy said, oh, there's this thing.

01:31:49.059 --> 01:31:53.299
We could do a little thing and put it
out on there, and maybe, who knows,

01:31:53.299 --> 01:31:54.619
maybe some people might come and help.

01:31:55.309 --> 01:31:57.229
It was one of the first
things that went viral.

01:31:57.414 --> 01:32:00.004
Back in the day when going
viral didn't mean what it means

01:32:00.124 --> 01:32:01.934
today, but nonetheless it did.

01:32:01.974 --> 01:32:06.594
And because of that all this work
that we now do with autism happened.

01:32:07.104 --> 01:32:11.064
So that was a result of one aspect
of social media, or here we are,

01:32:11.254 --> 01:32:12.594
we're talking on Zoom right now.

01:32:13.044 --> 01:32:16.994
That is of course another one, but I
think where you're right is that we

01:32:16.994 --> 01:32:22.124
come out of this analog generation
where we learned to communicate

01:32:22.124 --> 01:32:24.024
before social media came along.

01:32:25.549 --> 01:32:29.159
And then it was added as a sort
of a tool that we sometimes like

01:32:29.159 --> 01:32:32.269
to engage with and sometimes don't
like to engage with, rather than

01:32:32.859 --> 01:32:34.489
growing up with it as the tool.

01:32:34.489 --> 01:32:37.799
Ginny Jordan: Well said.

01:32:37.809 --> 01:32:41.399
And so, you know, we have to
pray for these young people

01:32:41.889 --> 01:32:43.089
that that's all they've known.

01:32:44.649 --> 01:32:46.119
This is what all they've known.

01:32:46.319 --> 01:32:50.809
And, you know, how are we going to
serve them and re remembering that

01:32:50.809 --> 01:32:54.569
discernment that you just named, which
is that it's, it's an amazing tool.

01:32:54.869 --> 01:32:55.759
That's all it is.

01:32:56.559 --> 01:32:56.799
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:32:56.869 --> 01:32:57.559
Ginny Jordan: It's a tool.

01:32:58.459 --> 01:32:59.229
It's a tool.

01:32:59.589 --> 01:33:03.499
But is, does it replace
your actual social, right,

01:33:03.549 --> 01:33:05.349
interactive felt experience?

01:33:05.359 --> 01:33:06.369
No, it can't.

01:33:07.369 --> 01:33:11.469
And we've now finally
discovered that, right?

01:33:11.629 --> 01:33:13.899
Rupert Isaacson: Your film was
one of the first ones that,

01:33:13.989 --> 01:33:15.809
that alerted people to it.

01:33:15.809 --> 01:33:16.099
Yeah.

01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:19.379
Ginny Jordan: No, it was, it was obviously
the right note in the right moment.

01:33:19.379 --> 01:33:22.249
I think 20 million people saw
it in the first three weeks.

01:33:23.374 --> 01:33:24.314
That was a huge thanks

01:33:24.864 --> 01:33:25.484
Rupert Isaacson: to social media,

01:33:27.434 --> 01:33:28.644
Ginny Jordan: social media, you got it.

01:33:29.014 --> 01:33:30.814
And I'll never forget talking.

01:33:30.814 --> 01:33:34.914
I had many, many conversations with
young people around the world, and

01:33:34.914 --> 01:33:36.614
they all were saying the same things.

01:33:36.614 --> 01:33:39.744
Like, how do we, they're not going
to throw out, you know, the ending

01:33:39.744 --> 01:33:42.224
of it's kind of trite, you know,
it's like, well, just get off it.

01:33:42.244 --> 01:33:46.484
Well, you know, if you grew up with it and
you love it and parts of it are wonderful,

01:33:46.494 --> 01:33:47.724
like, how are you going to do that?

01:33:47.724 --> 01:33:47.944
But.

01:33:48.649 --> 01:33:52.389
Every single one, whether it was a young
person in India or where they were in

01:33:52.419 --> 01:33:56.039
Pakistan, wherever they were in South
America, they all said the same thing.

01:33:56.329 --> 01:33:58.489
We've got to come up
with better platforms.

01:33:59.139 --> 01:33:59.369
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:33:59.749 --> 01:34:02.379
Ginny Jordan: that and I thought,
okay, good challenge for you.

01:34:02.379 --> 01:34:03.849
Let's pass that baton to you.

01:34:04.359 --> 01:34:05.699
See if you can figure that out.

01:34:05.719 --> 01:34:07.909
1st of all, where they're not
getting hold of your data.

01:34:09.399 --> 01:34:12.109
They're not, you're not being
marketed, you know, in a

01:34:12.309 --> 01:34:14.139
completely manipulative way.

01:34:14.539 --> 01:34:17.059
But 2nd, how do you actually generate.

01:34:17.444 --> 01:34:20.864
A tool that actually can supply
the connection like you and I are

01:34:20.874 --> 01:34:22.834
having right now, and we're safe.

01:34:23.164 --> 01:34:26.014
We're saving a whole lot
of carbon to do this.

01:34:26.254 --> 01:34:29.664
We're not getting on airplanes, you know,
all that has its rightful place, but

01:34:29.764 --> 01:34:33.394
they're going to have to figure this out
because they're not going to throw up.

01:34:33.914 --> 01:34:34.704
Why would you?

01:34:35.964 --> 01:34:38.684
Rupert Isaacson: I almost wonder
if we're going to have to sort of

01:34:38.734 --> 01:34:43.994
open, reopen the sort of old schools
of philosophy, but within schools.

01:34:44.589 --> 01:34:48.919
Of this is how this is how a human
being talks to another human being.

01:34:51.169 --> 01:34:54.429
Ginny Jordan: I've always wanted I
actually developed like, it's probably.

01:34:55.019 --> 01:34:58.319
Probably I probably horrified if I
looked at it now, but many years ago,

01:34:58.319 --> 01:35:02.549
I went on retreat in Greece and I,
I wrote a curriculum for high school

01:35:02.549 --> 01:35:04.389
kids called the art of communication.

01:35:04.959 --> 01:35:09.639
And I thought, like, how do you
break down conversation was the art?

01:35:10.099 --> 01:35:10.379
Sorry.

01:35:10.389 --> 01:35:12.499
It was the art of conversation,
not communication.

01:35:12.829 --> 01:35:14.599
How do you actually have conversation?

01:35:15.069 --> 01:35:16.019
What does that mean?

01:35:16.429 --> 01:35:17.179
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you need it?

01:35:17.509 --> 01:35:17.819
Yeah.

01:35:17.899 --> 01:35:18.949
Ginny Jordan: Why do you need it?

01:35:18.969 --> 01:35:23.659
And what does it feel like when, you
know, you and I get off the podcast and

01:35:23.659 --> 01:35:29.269
we grew something bigger than we knew
we could, and that generates a feeling,

01:35:29.269 --> 01:35:33.539
not just of exhaustion or depletion,
like we've all had those conversations,

01:35:33.569 --> 01:35:39.809
but it should, lots of those, it
should be, it should be additive.

01:35:40.249 --> 01:35:40.729
Right.

01:35:40.979 --> 01:35:41.289
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:41.289 --> 01:35:41.569
Yeah.

01:35:41.569 --> 01:35:42.469
It should be.

01:35:43.389 --> 01:35:46.899
Ginny Jordan: You're growing something
bigger than these two parts could know.

01:35:46.899 --> 01:35:50.559
And that's the glory opportunity
of real conversation.

01:35:51.089 --> 01:35:54.589
But you know, how do you tell a young
person who just wants you to get

01:35:54.589 --> 01:35:56.119
through it in three seconds, please.

01:35:56.119 --> 01:35:58.909
And let's get to the bottom
data point or whatever.

01:35:58.919 --> 01:36:02.259
It's, it's a lost, sort of a lost art.

01:36:02.499 --> 01:36:02.709
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:36:02.709 --> 01:36:05.959
You can't create, you can't
manifest without conversation.

01:36:06.404 --> 01:36:10.144
Conversation between people, conversation
between people in the divine, but I think

01:36:10.154 --> 01:36:18.474
also there's just a straight up nurturing
of the individual human in that we are,

01:36:19.274 --> 01:36:21.404
they call us sapiens sapiens, right?

01:36:21.704 --> 01:36:24.804
But that's a silly name for us, Homo
sapiens, it just means the thinking

01:36:24.804 --> 01:36:30.264
ape, all apes think, in fact, anything
with a brain thinks, you know, octopuses

01:36:30.344 --> 01:36:33.914
have ape brains, you know, I mean, it's,
that's not specific to our species.

01:36:34.344 --> 01:36:37.404
But this, this voice box,
this larynx that I've got.

01:36:37.679 --> 01:36:41.339
that you've got, with a speaking
ape, with a storytelling ape.

01:36:41.719 --> 01:36:46.099
That is, other animals vocalize,
and many of them vocalize in a very

01:36:46.109 --> 01:36:48.129
complex way, but they don't create rap.

01:36:48.639 --> 01:36:49.769
And they don't write Shakespeare.

01:36:49.809 --> 01:36:50.479
That's, that's us.

01:36:51.089 --> 01:36:52.069
That's our species.

01:36:52.109 --> 01:36:55.559
And the sort of shamanic thing, you
know, story is medicine story is.

01:36:55.869 --> 01:36:58.169
So, yeah, that is conversation.

01:37:00.389 --> 01:37:00.799
Yeah, it's

01:37:00.799 --> 01:37:01.909
Ginny Jordan: back to imagination.

01:37:01.909 --> 01:37:05.549
I mean, that was what William
Blake meant when all of his work

01:37:05.549 --> 01:37:08.859
was kind of in service to what
he called divine imagination is

01:37:08.909 --> 01:37:11.769
the divine gift of this species.

01:37:12.074 --> 01:37:12.344
Right.

01:37:12.344 --> 01:37:16.374
Is that we can, we can vocalize,
but we can imagine with it.

01:37:16.584 --> 01:37:18.914
And off we go insane.

01:37:18.914 --> 01:37:20.784
Create creativity as possible.

01:37:21.764 --> 01:37:25.794
So, and, and there's a lot of
creativity that happens on devices.

01:37:25.804 --> 01:37:28.934
My God, you know, so yeah.

01:37:28.934 --> 01:37:32.374
Like, but, you know, so then really
beginning to understand, analyze,

01:37:32.374 --> 01:37:37.124
like actually what might be missing,
like, what, what are you actually

01:37:37.134 --> 01:37:40.934
having an experience of like when
you walk away and it's like, Hmm.

01:37:41.894 --> 01:37:42.414
Right.

01:37:42.834 --> 01:37:43.294
So.

01:37:43.619 --> 01:37:45.629
It's, it's not an easy answer.

01:37:45.629 --> 01:37:47.829
It's definitely an important inquiry.

01:37:47.959 --> 01:37:49.979
Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting
when we're doing our work, you know,

01:37:49.979 --> 01:37:52.959
movement method, horseboy method,
we're obviously going into nature

01:37:52.959 --> 01:37:55.629
as much as we can, because that's
what the human nervous system needs.

01:37:56.319 --> 01:37:59.669
People frequently, parents or
teachers will say, well, to the

01:37:59.669 --> 01:38:02.569
child that we're taking, Oh, you're
not, you can't bring your device

01:38:03.179 --> 01:38:05.260
because this is your nature time.

01:38:05.260 --> 01:38:06.719
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:38:07.339 --> 01:38:08.309
Absolutely.

01:38:08.309 --> 01:38:09.389
They can bring their device.

01:38:09.749 --> 01:38:17.359
Please bring your safety blanket and
please and now engage with that in nature.

01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:25.334
And what will happen is pretty soon you'll
get a bit distracted by nature and you'll

01:38:25.334 --> 01:38:27.149
start forgetting to use that device.

01:38:27.429 --> 01:38:29.169
And we're not trying to
wean you from your device.

01:38:29.169 --> 01:38:32.499
In fact, we think your use of
this device is a good thing.

01:38:32.599 --> 01:38:33.959
However, if it.

01:38:34.699 --> 01:38:37.659
You don't also have what
your organism needs.

01:38:37.929 --> 01:38:38.999
Well, then no, you won't thrive.

01:38:39.509 --> 01:38:43.069
But yes, We absolutely accept that we
live in the age of devices and they're

01:38:43.069 --> 01:38:47.989
not all bad by any means so please
engage with it and it's funny how Extreme

01:38:47.989 --> 01:38:52.179
and black and white I guess, you know,
that's So endemic to our culture, but

01:38:53.579 --> 01:38:53.929
Ginny Jordan: that's brilliant.

01:38:54.209 --> 01:38:55.689
That's a brilliant way to talk about it.

01:38:55.689 --> 01:38:55.879
Rue.

01:38:55.879 --> 01:38:56.569
I love that.

01:38:57.109 --> 01:38:57.949
This is brilliant.

01:38:57.949 --> 01:38:59.829
It's like, no, bring it with you.

01:38:59.829 --> 01:39:03.929
And then you, you let this, you
know, there is a natural impulse,

01:39:03.929 --> 01:39:07.989
whether nature's pulling that out
of us or whether another human

01:39:07.989 --> 01:39:12.229
is, there is a natural impulse to
have this connection that grows.

01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:13.799
It just, it's natural.

01:39:14.129 --> 01:39:15.919
This is not like all mysterious.

01:39:16.809 --> 01:39:17.509
Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

01:39:17.559 --> 01:39:22.589
By the time we say light a fire at
night, none of them are on their devices.

01:39:23.009 --> 01:39:27.009
We don't even have to try, but
their device might be lying

01:39:27.009 --> 01:39:31.239
next to them, but they're not
on it, but they get back on it.

01:39:31.249 --> 01:39:32.939
Maybe they're getting back
on it and engaging in a

01:39:32.939 --> 01:39:34.049
different type of conversation.

01:39:35.839 --> 01:39:36.049
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

01:39:36.089 --> 01:39:36.589
I love it.

01:39:36.609 --> 01:39:38.049
No, and it's spot on.

01:39:38.049 --> 01:39:41.779
And like, you know, how often
are you and I checking our phones

01:39:41.779 --> 01:39:43.049
while we're talking right now?

01:39:43.089 --> 01:39:43.349
It's like

01:39:43.349 --> 01:39:44.259
Rupert Isaacson: a zillion times.

01:39:45.204 --> 01:39:45.924
Ginny Jordan: A zillion times.

01:39:46.134 --> 01:39:46.844
Yeah, right.

01:39:47.504 --> 01:39:49.254
So not, not, not needed.

01:39:49.324 --> 01:39:51.734
But again, that's not, it's
not like there's a rule, you

01:39:51.734 --> 01:39:53.604
know, it's just, it's just.

01:39:54.029 --> 01:39:56.139
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and the phone
has set me free because the fact that

01:39:56.139 --> 01:40:01.049
I can WhatsApp you in Boulder, Colorado
from here in Germany and the fact that

01:40:01.049 --> 01:40:04.169
someone else can WhatsApp me while
I'm talking to you, that sets us free

01:40:04.169 --> 01:40:07.689
because yes, we can live in parallel
realities, which we always have anyway,

01:40:07.689 --> 01:40:09.059
but we can do those through our devices.

01:40:09.059 --> 01:40:11.869
We can have our livelihoods
through our devices and we can

01:40:11.869 --> 01:40:13.239
be creative through our devices.

01:40:13.679 --> 01:40:20.879
But I think only if we also keep
one of our feet firmly in nature,

01:40:21.079 --> 01:40:25.959
will it, will it help us thrive
and not just cause us pain?

01:40:26.494 --> 01:40:29.824
Ginny Jordan: Yeah, you know, I feel
completely with you on that note.

01:40:30.284 --> 01:40:35.444
Not everybody feels that way, but
part of it comes down to presence.

01:40:36.564 --> 01:40:42.014
Like, how present, like back to DRAMDAS,
be here now, how present what's our

01:40:42.014 --> 01:40:43.974
capacity to actually be present?

01:40:44.234 --> 01:40:48.144
Rupert Isaacson: And I think it's, it's
more complex than it's often presented.

01:40:48.154 --> 01:40:51.984
So, for example you've had this
experience, when you've been in, you know,

01:40:52.034 --> 01:40:53.684
the company of a really senior shaman,

01:40:54.694 --> 01:40:54.954
Ginny Jordan: like

01:40:55.074 --> 01:40:58.894
Rupert Isaacson: I'm thinking about,
say, ghost from the reindeer people

01:40:58.894 --> 01:41:04.394
in Mongolia who healed my son or Besa,
who was the healer in the Kalahari

01:41:04.404 --> 01:41:08.804
that I was the closest to, they would
go in and out of trance parallel.

01:41:09.549 --> 01:41:14.469
To being in the quote unquote real
world, whereas the younger healers, they

01:41:14.469 --> 01:41:16.289
were either in trance or they were not.

01:41:16.709 --> 01:41:20.029
And then they would reach this point when
they were in the 60s or 70s when they

01:41:20.029 --> 01:41:23.929
could simultaneously walk the two paths
and literally be kind of like smoking a

01:41:23.929 --> 01:41:27.959
cigarette and having a conversation with
someone about something very banal while

01:41:27.959 --> 01:41:32.269
falling in and out of trance and sort of
pulling something out of somebody's spine.

01:41:32.499 --> 01:41:35.509
And is that not what we're
doing when we're on our devices?

01:41:36.489 --> 01:41:41.639
Yeah, well, talking to each other
if the intention is with what you

01:41:41.639 --> 01:41:45.049
do with that device while you're
talking to somebody to bring healing

01:41:45.049 --> 01:41:49.099
in some way or that is that not the
same process really in a funny way.

01:41:49.734 --> 01:41:52.674
Ginny Jordan: No, I, I, I
think that's spot on that.

01:41:52.694 --> 01:41:56.794
And that's pretty much what I was trying
to say that ultimately what happens

01:41:56.794 --> 01:42:00.534
in our nightlife besides just crashing
and like, just wanting to check out.

01:42:00.534 --> 01:42:03.974
It's a, you know, it's kind of a,
another fertile realm of existence.

01:42:04.514 --> 01:42:07.224
They can all be singing to
each other, you know, and it

01:42:07.224 --> 01:42:08.849
all can happen simultaneously.

01:42:08.849 --> 01:42:11.394
I mean, now we're getting
kind of out there, but I

01:42:11.394 --> 01:42:12.724
absolutely know it's possible.

01:42:13.344 --> 01:42:16.554
The, the Tibetans have, have
researched that for thousands of

01:42:16.554 --> 01:42:20.584
years, you know, they call it dream
yoga where you actually can wake up

01:42:20.744 --> 01:42:23.444
fully is beyond even lucid dreaming.

01:42:23.454 --> 01:42:29.104
You can wake up fully in Simon's death
practice ultimately, because you're waking

01:42:29.104 --> 01:42:33.324
up fully inside of your night experience
and you're wide awake, but you're asleep.

01:42:34.294 --> 01:42:36.644
And like, how do you
do this simultaneously?

01:42:36.644 --> 01:42:37.804
And like you just said, where it's.

01:42:38.549 --> 01:42:42.139
It's not a, you know, it's not a
question of, Oh, I'm not present

01:42:42.139 --> 01:42:43.249
or I have to be here or here.

01:42:43.249 --> 01:42:46.019
It's this black and white thing
that we have gotten ourselves into.

01:42:46.519 --> 01:42:48.009
It, it has a weaving.

01:42:48.059 --> 01:42:49.299
We just don't know how to live it.

01:42:51.219 --> 01:42:54.229
Rupert Isaacson: You've mentioned
at the beginning while we were

01:42:54.229 --> 01:42:57.669
chatting before this began about
another project called Chasing Time.

01:42:57.899 --> 01:42:58.749
What's that about?

01:43:00.259 --> 01:43:04.519
Ginny Jordan: Well, that's really the,
the literal finale of taking these.

01:43:05.179 --> 01:43:10.019
Cameras down all over the world and
the last cameras, the time lapse

01:43:10.019 --> 01:43:12.809
that were part of chasing ice.

01:43:13.609 --> 01:43:16.879
So chasing time is really
a much shorter version.

01:43:16.879 --> 01:43:20.689
It's maybe a 45 minute film piece on Jim.

01:43:20.699 --> 01:43:25.389
They log the photographer going back
to take down the last, very last

01:43:25.419 --> 01:43:27.399
camera, which happens to be in Iceland.

01:43:28.109 --> 01:43:31.259
And so it's full of incredible images.

01:43:31.269 --> 01:43:32.179
I mean, gorgeous.

01:43:32.589 --> 01:43:36.029
Portraits of glaciers that just
make you fall in love in part,

01:43:36.039 --> 01:43:39.909
knowing that we're not going to see
those images and X number of years.

01:43:39.939 --> 01:43:42.129
There's going to be no glacier left.

01:43:42.129 --> 01:43:43.669
No snow left to be looking at.

01:43:44.279 --> 01:43:45.739
And it's also the story.

01:43:45.759 --> 01:43:49.369
So it's visually gorgeous
and kind of a love affair.

01:43:49.399 --> 01:43:53.299
And it's also the story of
taking down the last camera.

01:43:53.984 --> 01:44:00.194
And handing it over to in this case,
the, the government got involved in

01:44:00.194 --> 01:44:04.634
this project and decided they wanted
to launch a more citizen science

01:44:05.484 --> 01:44:10.504
project as the tail of this project
into the future, which would be.

01:44:10.934 --> 01:44:14.344
People, citizens going to the
same spots where Jim took the, you

01:44:14.344 --> 01:44:15.934
know, it's a very specific spot.

01:44:15.934 --> 01:44:17.294
You know, you don't change your spot.

01:44:17.304 --> 01:44:18.324
You're going to do time lapse.

01:44:18.334 --> 01:44:19.974
It's got to be exact exact.

01:44:20.344 --> 01:44:25.024
So the exact same spot, you know, with
these brass kind of stands where have

01:44:25.024 --> 01:44:29.794
a little mount on them where you can
mount your iPhone and you, me, just

01:44:29.804 --> 01:44:32.284
regular citizens can take a picture.

01:44:32.874 --> 01:44:36.114
And that picture will go
into a database of images.

01:44:36.344 --> 01:44:41.624
And so their child, you know, 20 years
from now can take the same picture

01:44:41.624 --> 01:44:45.244
in the same spot and be comparing
to how much retreat there's been.

01:44:46.224 --> 01:44:50.554
And the angle for for the Icelandic
people is they love their glaciers.

01:44:50.789 --> 01:44:51.659
They love them.

01:44:52.009 --> 01:44:54.749
It's a big part of
their, of their culture.

01:44:54.749 --> 01:44:58.029
It's also a huge part of tourism,
you know, the amount of diversity

01:44:58.029 --> 01:45:00.779
in that, if you've ever been
to Iceland, it's so diverse.

01:45:00.789 --> 01:45:02.119
It's kind of astounding.

01:45:02.679 --> 01:45:08.329
And so, you know, in the film you see, you
know, hundreds and hundreds of, of people

01:45:08.329 --> 01:45:13.399
that live in Iceland engaged in this
project from their love of the glaciers

01:45:13.439 --> 01:45:15.359
and their love of wanting to document.

01:45:15.409 --> 01:45:20.109
Their loss, so it's kind of an active
science project, but it's also a

01:45:20.109 --> 01:45:25.779
grieving project and a way of engaging
their grief that these things are

01:45:25.779 --> 01:45:28.159
going and one day there's children.

01:45:28.169 --> 01:45:30.409
Children are not going to
see any of the landscape they

01:45:30.409 --> 01:45:32.199
have, which is so impressive.

01:45:35.109 --> 01:45:38.009
So what a beautiful thing
to go from an individual.

01:45:38.139 --> 01:45:40.289
It's not about Jim Balog anymore.

01:45:40.289 --> 01:45:44.859
It's about the people participating
and documenting the change.

01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:51.189
In the world, and that's real time,
real life engaging and these projects

01:45:51.189 --> 01:45:55.209
are actually, as you probably know,
these citizens scientists projects are

01:45:55.209 --> 01:46:01.339
sprouting up all over the world where
people are engaged in observing that.

01:46:01.379 --> 01:46:06.679
Oh, my God, that species of birds
didn't come back this year and they

01:46:06.679 --> 01:46:10.759
have a way to send that data in and
participate in telling the story.

01:46:11.274 --> 01:46:12.584
of this changing planet.

01:46:12.654 --> 01:46:18.844
So it's a brilliant way to end this
extraordinary effort that Jim made.

01:46:20.104 --> 01:46:24.324
Rupert Isaacson: I want to bring the
conversation in it's, we're going to

01:46:24.324 --> 01:46:25.794
sort of head for the home stretch now.

01:46:25.794 --> 01:46:33.784
By the way listeners tend to break these
things up into segments to listen to.

01:46:34.134 --> 01:46:37.684
But you've got so much that, okay.

01:46:37.704 --> 01:46:38.844
So before I just go to the last.

01:46:39.224 --> 01:46:43.284
A set of things I wanted to ask
you about you, you've got chasing

01:46:43.284 --> 01:46:44.104
time, which you're working on.

01:46:44.104 --> 01:46:47.104
What have you got another
movie up your sleeve?

01:46:48.054 --> 01:46:52.264
Ginny Jordan: Well, yeah, there's
a wonderful book called braiding

01:46:52.264 --> 01:46:56.634
sweetgrass, which is your, if your
listeners haven't read, I highly

01:46:56.644 --> 01:46:58.504
recommend that's have you read it?

01:46:58.704 --> 01:47:01.594
Rupert Isaacson: I can highly
recommend it to braiding sweetgrass.

01:47:01.644 --> 01:47:05.514
I was given it by a Cheyenne
native American woman.

01:47:06.169 --> 01:47:07.189
Oh, wow.

01:47:07.519 --> 01:47:12.739
Was actually braiding in Yellowstone
National Park who braided sweetgrass

01:47:12.739 --> 01:47:16.899
for my daughter Freya and braided it
into her hair and for my youngest son

01:47:16.989 --> 01:47:22.009
Kirian, and she said you guys must
read this book and we didn't and so

01:47:22.009 --> 01:47:23.929
we read it aloud to our children.

01:47:24.219 --> 01:47:27.999
For those, last year, for those
who don't know what braiding

01:47:27.999 --> 01:47:29.139
sweetgrass is, please Ginny, tell us.

01:47:30.884 --> 01:47:34.164
Ginny Jordan: Well, it's the woman
who wrote is called Robin wall Kimmer.

01:47:34.244 --> 01:47:36.004
Is she an actually, is she a botanist?

01:47:36.504 --> 01:47:37.904
I'm trying to remember her actually.

01:47:37.914 --> 01:47:42.244
I mean, she's, she's got, you know,
very strong, serious science background.

01:47:42.654 --> 01:47:49.614
But indigenous And it's a really hard
book to describe how she's engaging us in,

01:47:49.634 --> 01:47:55.554
um, the ingredients of I'm going to put
this in air quotes, an indigenous way of

01:47:55.564 --> 01:48:00.614
living where we're in right relationship
to all species and all beings.

01:48:01.249 --> 01:48:07.359
And she's a masterful storyteller, so
she'll tell you the whole story of sweet

01:48:07.359 --> 01:48:10.979
grass and it's you know, before you
know it, you're smelling it and then

01:48:11.169 --> 01:48:12.709
you really kind of want to plant it.

01:48:12.709 --> 01:48:15.279
And I've learned how to
make sweet grass baskets

01:48:15.789 --> 01:48:19.039
Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners who
are, say, driving a car in Berkshire in

01:48:19.039 --> 01:48:20.379
England right now, listening to this.

01:48:20.399 --> 01:48:20.959
What is sweet grass?

01:48:22.714 --> 01:48:26.264
Ginny Jordan: It's just, you know,
kind of one of a gazillion thousands of

01:48:26.264 --> 01:48:31.474
grasses but it's been used traditionally
in native cultures for, you know,

01:48:31.494 --> 01:48:35.294
basket making also for smudging.

01:48:35.304 --> 01:48:42.714
They often weave it into into braids
where you can, you know, Light it and

01:48:43.164 --> 01:48:45.154
it creates an, it's an amazing scent.

01:48:45.154 --> 01:48:47.224
It's sweetness of sweetness of grass.

01:48:47.234 --> 01:48:51.274
If you could just imagine putting your
face in really fresh grass, it's so, so

01:48:51.294 --> 01:48:55.464
sweet but it's not, you know, we would
not look at it and go, that's an amazingly

01:48:55.464 --> 01:49:01.304
special grass, you know, it, it kind of
grows and kind of not so great conditions.

01:49:01.504 --> 01:49:02.914
It sort of doesn't matter, but.

01:49:03.589 --> 01:49:05.699
She elevates it to its rightful place.

01:49:05.699 --> 01:49:08.279
And what she's trying to say
throughout the whole book is

01:49:08.299 --> 01:49:10.359
all these species are beings.

01:49:10.459 --> 01:49:15.589
They're living beings that have this
dynamic expression, you know, in this

01:49:15.589 --> 01:49:20.779
case, in the form of plants that are
full of all kinds of medicines for us.

01:49:20.799 --> 01:49:26.189
And we simply have not learned
how to actually have a direct

01:49:26.189 --> 01:49:27.839
experience with these beings.

01:49:28.709 --> 01:49:30.019
You know, we might use them.

01:49:30.019 --> 01:49:30.369
We might.

01:49:30.779 --> 01:49:34.369
You know, be interested, but like,
actually, you know, she really

01:49:34.369 --> 01:49:38.569
takes us through the experience of
what it is to actually listen to

01:49:38.569 --> 01:49:41.459
a plant and have the plant speak.

01:49:41.799 --> 01:49:42.079
That's

01:49:44.369 --> 01:49:49.919
Rupert Isaacson: the, I think, for
many people, the revelatory part of.

01:49:50.679 --> 01:49:55.469
If you like modern day spirituality is
that suddenly there's an acceptance,

01:49:55.789 --> 01:49:59.849
thanks to you guys from the
counterculture 50 years on, there is

01:49:59.849 --> 01:50:05.059
now finally an acceptance within the
medical and the psychological field

01:50:05.459 --> 01:50:07.484
of the use of psychotropic plants.

01:50:07.774 --> 01:50:11.684
For the mental health pandemic that
we've got, and suddenly you're seeing

01:50:11.964 --> 01:50:16.034
magic mushrooms being legalized in just
about every state, but whoever would have

01:50:16.034 --> 01:50:20.934
thought you'd see that and people using
ayahuasca and using, you know, other plant

01:50:20.934 --> 01:50:23.374
based medicines, you know, peyote, etc.

01:50:23.934 --> 01:50:26.164
I've had some experience with that.

01:50:26.164 --> 01:50:31.234
And as you know, listeners, maybe you
don't know what the native, what the

01:50:31.234 --> 01:50:34.514
indigenous people of all, all those
cultures who use these things around

01:50:34.514 --> 01:50:40.114
the world say is that, well, we didn't
discover the use of these plants.

01:50:40.114 --> 01:50:44.484
These plants discovered us and we
have a relationship to this plant.

01:50:44.494 --> 01:50:49.134
These plants have personalities and
speak to us through our consciousness

01:50:49.134 --> 01:50:50.284
and our shamanic processes.

01:50:50.284 --> 01:50:52.294
And it's, it wasn't a
system of trial and error.

01:50:52.294 --> 01:50:53.074
Let's try this thing.

01:50:53.074 --> 01:50:54.884
Let's try this Not at all.

01:50:55.004 --> 01:51:01.169
It's a very different process and I think
with what you're doing with braiding

01:51:01.169 --> 01:51:07.999
sweetgrass, you seem to be, once again,
at the zeitgeist of when this becomes

01:51:09.229 --> 01:51:12.209
part of mainstream thought, just before
it becomes part of mainstream thought.

01:51:12.409 --> 01:51:16.069
You did it with climate change, you did
it with ice and coral, you did it with

01:51:16.079 --> 01:51:19.009
social media with the social dilemma.

01:51:19.289 --> 01:51:22.889
Now you're doing it with plant based
medicines in relation to other species.

01:51:23.099 --> 01:51:31.409
What is it, Jiddy, that allows you to
consistently and continually identify

01:51:31.429 --> 01:51:39.339
and tap the zeitgeist of what the
human beings need before it hits the

01:51:39.339 --> 01:51:41.739
mainstream, to help it hit the mainstream.

01:51:41.749 --> 01:51:44.229
What, what, what, where
does this quality come from?

01:51:44.429 --> 01:51:49.849
You hit it into the ballpark,
Every time with your films,

01:51:51.289 --> 01:51:54.589
Ginny Jordan: I wish I could answer
that people have reflected that to me.

01:51:54.589 --> 01:51:56.179
Like, well, how are you doing this?

01:51:56.179 --> 01:51:57.699
Like, you're, you've got a good picker.

01:51:57.719 --> 01:52:01.779
You know, you can I, I
think it's a bit mysterious.

01:52:01.829 --> 01:52:08.519
I think it's as simple as I, I have good
instincts when I met you and you just

01:52:08.889 --> 01:52:13.609
somewhat casually said to me, well, I
have this idea about this book and I

01:52:13.619 --> 01:52:19.839
have this idea about taking Rowan out,
you know, out, you know, given some

01:52:19.839 --> 01:52:24.139
of your, your upbringing and history
and connection to, to shamans and to

01:52:24.139 --> 01:52:26.639
healers and it was forming for you.

01:52:26.669 --> 01:52:30.149
And there was just no question
in my mind, no question.

01:52:30.149 --> 01:52:33.669
And it had to do with the
quality of your heart.

01:52:33.919 --> 01:52:38.219
It wasn't just that you're actually
happened to be brilliant and you actually

01:52:38.219 --> 01:52:43.659
have some of the most can do motivational
you know, capacities I've ever met.

01:52:43.689 --> 01:52:45.389
It was actually the quality of your heart.

01:52:46.089 --> 01:52:48.829
And I think I can tell that.

01:52:49.394 --> 01:52:55.234
It's like Robin Wall Kimmer in writing
this book, you, you feel, you know,

01:52:55.274 --> 01:52:59.194
she's not on a rampage or a campaign
to convince anybody of anything.

01:52:59.204 --> 01:53:03.414
She's telling the story through her
own heart, which tends to soften

01:53:03.414 --> 01:53:10.254
us and open us and, and generate
something that makes it more acceptable

01:53:10.254 --> 01:53:12.094
to have things be in the mystery.

01:53:12.934 --> 01:53:14.844
And I would say my instincts.

01:53:15.649 --> 01:53:21.409
Are, are, have been developed over
time to, you know, meeting Jim Bailong,

01:53:21.409 --> 01:53:25.329
you know, when I first met him and
he told me about this crazy idea he

01:53:25.329 --> 01:53:29.039
had, it was probably not going to
work to put these cameras out and

01:53:29.039 --> 01:53:34.249
they didn't work and people who watch
the movie will know that like he, he

01:53:34.249 --> 01:53:35.909
was determined, but they all fail.

01:53:35.909 --> 01:53:39.269
These cameras fail because he was
first time I've ever been designed,

01:53:39.759 --> 01:53:44.249
but you could feel I, and I feel
it to this day when I'm with him,

01:53:44.249 --> 01:53:45.599
it's the quality of his heart.

01:53:46.219 --> 01:53:53.769
And that he had that in combination with
tremendous sense of vision and will that

01:53:53.869 --> 01:53:59.099
I just feel like that's those are the two
kind of like, if there's a secret sauce

01:53:59.189 --> 01:54:04.539
or the secret ingredients, I think when
I sense those coming together, it, it,

01:54:04.739 --> 01:54:09.679
it, you know, either in my being or in
other people's beings that really are here

01:54:09.679 --> 01:54:12.049
doing what they meant to be doing here.

01:54:12.944 --> 01:54:16.444
It's worth taking a risk and
saying, Oh, I support that

01:54:18.144 --> 01:54:19.774
Rupert Isaacson: mentor a moment here.

01:54:19.984 --> 01:54:31.204
Please, how can we, those listening,
all of us, how can we learn to develop

01:54:31.204 --> 01:54:38.194
that muscle to develop that skill
of correctly discerning the quality

01:54:38.724 --> 01:54:40.184
of the human heart in front of us?

01:54:43.504 --> 01:54:48.624
As we get involved with other
people, what, what advice or

01:54:48.624 --> 01:54:50.454
tips would you give to people?

01:54:53.274 --> 01:54:57.304
Ginny Jordan: Well, even doing what,
even asking the question you're

01:54:57.314 --> 01:54:59.344
asking is the first question to ask.

01:55:00.269 --> 01:55:00.539
Right.

01:55:00.539 --> 01:55:02.419
We tend to skip over that question.

01:55:02.439 --> 01:55:06.139
So if I'm meeting somebody who's all
on fire about a project or they're an

01:55:06.139 --> 01:55:12.029
entrepreneur or whatever, to stop long
enough, not just to go on the ride of

01:55:12.049 --> 01:55:17.539
the exhilaration possibility, but what's
the quality of this human's heart.

01:55:18.119 --> 01:55:23.399
It, I don't mean that they have to be
all kind of gushy and lovey or it, it

01:55:23.399 --> 01:55:28.669
doesn't but you, but you have to sense
where this whole passion is rooted.

01:55:28.669 --> 01:55:28.684
Right.

01:55:30.204 --> 01:55:36.044
And, you know, there are a lot of
initiatives that don't make it, and

01:55:36.044 --> 01:55:40.384
I'm pretty convinced part is that
that's the carrier that's bigger

01:55:40.384 --> 01:55:44.824
than just even our will force
and our powers of manifestation.

01:55:44.824 --> 01:55:48.684
It's the human heart that, that
actually loves, knows what it

01:55:48.684 --> 01:55:50.294
loves and loves what it loves.

01:55:51.219 --> 01:55:54.079
And that's bigger than just that person.

01:55:54.899 --> 01:55:58.399
And if that hasn't been cultivated
or developed or not known to that

01:55:58.399 --> 01:56:00.569
person, you know, they might get there.

01:56:00.569 --> 01:56:02.819
Of course, trial and
error will get us there.

01:56:03.629 --> 01:56:06.359
Because, I mean, this
is frigging hard work.

01:56:07.169 --> 01:56:10.919
It's not a person out there listening
that doesn't know that life is hard work.

01:56:10.969 --> 01:56:15.219
Now, anything we want to achieve
or accomplish requires an

01:56:15.389 --> 01:56:16.569
incredible amount of effort.

01:56:18.029 --> 01:56:22.619
So where that effort is coming
from is, you know, maybe somebody

01:56:22.619 --> 01:56:25.689
could say psychologically, this
is the true integration of the

01:56:25.689 --> 01:56:28.079
masculine and feminine, right?

01:56:28.089 --> 01:56:28.739
Where there's this.

01:56:29.164 --> 01:56:35.484
You know, this beautiful concert going on
of, of deep, deep love for this existence.

01:56:36.094 --> 01:56:38.294
Whether we get to save
it or not, I don't know.

01:56:39.384 --> 01:56:39.764
Right.

01:56:39.794 --> 01:56:45.034
But if that heart isn't part of the
driver and that has a natural softness

01:56:45.094 --> 01:56:50.564
to it and openness, willingness to
learn as we go, willingness to listen,

01:56:50.564 --> 01:56:53.874
willingness to fail willingness to hurt.

01:56:54.414 --> 01:56:56.104
To grieve, to be vulnerable.

01:56:57.034 --> 01:57:00.224
I, I just see that as
just a kind of a critical.

01:57:00.654 --> 01:57:04.814
So I think the answer to your question
is, you know, ask the question.

01:57:05.244 --> 01:57:06.134
Rupert Isaacson: That's
a brilliant answer.

01:57:07.284 --> 01:57:08.254
Ginny Jordan: Ask the question.

01:57:08.364 --> 01:57:09.069
Rupert Isaacson: Ask the question.

01:57:09.069 --> 01:57:10.824
What is the quality of
this person's heart?

01:57:11.504 --> 01:57:14.294
Ginny Jordan: And you may not know,
or you may be, may be clueless,

01:57:14.394 --> 01:57:16.014
but it's, it's a worthy question.

01:57:16.174 --> 01:57:16.384
But at

01:57:16.384 --> 01:57:18.234
Rupert Isaacson: least it brings
it into conversation, right?

01:57:18.634 --> 01:57:20.014
Ginny Jordan: Brings it
into your consciousness.

01:57:20.494 --> 01:57:20.814
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:57:20.904 --> 01:57:21.196
I'm

01:57:21.196 --> 01:57:23.704
Ginny Jordan: just trying to see
where they're really, where they're

01:57:23.704 --> 01:57:24.964
really living in their being.

01:57:27.074 --> 01:57:28.614
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
now the final thing.

01:57:32.344 --> 01:57:36.594
You're also an author, and I
know you don't like this book

01:57:36.994 --> 01:57:40.444
that you wrote much, or at least
you've told me that but I like it.

01:57:41.154 --> 01:57:45.234
I like it for its humor, and it's
also just really well written,

01:57:45.904 --> 01:57:47.424
and it's also mind blowing.

01:57:47.504 --> 01:57:49.914
And this book is called Clear Cut.

01:57:50.534 --> 01:57:52.444
It's by Ginny Jordan, the
person you're listening to.

01:57:53.674 --> 01:58:02.004
And Ginny, you talked about this
revelation coming to you through

01:58:02.004 --> 01:58:03.494
your experience with cancer.

01:58:04.324 --> 01:58:10.274
And you very modestly talked about
it as if that was the only experience

01:58:10.334 --> 01:58:18.634
with it you've had, let alone Meniere's
disease, let alone various other things.

01:58:18.674 --> 01:58:23.384
And before Ginny, I want you to talk
us through all the cancers you've

01:58:23.384 --> 01:58:26.544
been through, and all the stuff
you've been through, and all the

01:58:26.544 --> 01:58:28.154
parts of you that have been cut.

01:58:30.024 --> 01:58:35.884
Before we go there, though, I want you
listeners, you can't see what I'm seeing.

01:58:35.884 --> 01:58:38.704
So I'm looking at Ginny
on the zoom screen.

01:58:39.534 --> 01:58:45.324
Ginny is one of the radiantly
beautiful women I know, human beings,

01:58:45.784 --> 01:58:52.189
and Yes, you're 70 years old, and
you don't look a day over 50, and

01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:55.779
you are the sort of person who when
we see you walking down the street,

01:58:56.659 --> 01:58:59.349
you look the picture of health.

01:59:00.259 --> 01:59:04.899
And yet, every single time I make
contact with you, particularly when

01:59:04.899 --> 01:59:09.879
we haven't spoken for a year or two,
which happens, there's always, you've

01:59:09.939 --> 01:59:11.999
always just come back from death's door.

01:59:11.999 --> 01:59:18.009
Can you, and this book Clearcut
tells some of those stories, and What

01:59:18.009 --> 01:59:21.089
you've learned as you've lost parts
of yourself, can you just briefly

01:59:21.089 --> 01:59:26.969
tell us what you've gone through
with sickness and loss of your body?

01:59:27.459 --> 01:59:32.769
And then from there, I want to go
into something we can learn from this.

01:59:32.809 --> 01:59:35.669
So can you just please
give us that rundown?

01:59:36.669 --> 01:59:40.699
Ginny Jordan: Well, as you said,
it's been an enormous theme,

01:59:40.779 --> 01:59:44.329
one of the braids on my braid.

01:59:44.529 --> 01:59:50.579
So, I did not know at the time when I
was 35, as I mentioned that I had what's

01:59:50.579 --> 01:59:55.929
called the BRAC2 gene, which is a, a
genetic propensity for breast cancer

01:59:56.079 --> 01:59:57.759
that actually I got from my father.

01:59:58.279 --> 01:59:58.299
Yeah.

02:00:00.269 --> 02:00:02.789
You know, in the early days, we
didn't have the test for that.

02:00:02.809 --> 02:00:04.329
So then I knew that.

02:00:04.479 --> 02:00:06.879
So, I, I got breast cancer.

02:00:06.899 --> 02:00:08.579
So I had breast cancer on the right side.

02:00:08.579 --> 02:00:11.749
Then I, 15 years later, got
breast cancer on the other side.

02:00:12.359 --> 02:00:15.199
And in between, I suffered
a really horrific.

02:00:15.524 --> 02:00:19.384
Another genetic disease that my mother
and grandmother both had called Meniere's

02:00:19.414 --> 02:00:24.484
disease, which is an inner ear disorder
where you're rendered kind of helpless

02:00:24.494 --> 02:00:26.644
with these attacks of violent vertigo.

02:00:27.464 --> 02:00:30.374
I mean, so bad that, you know,
I'd be bedridden for days.

02:00:30.374 --> 02:00:33.234
And there were a number of years
where I couldn't drive a car, which

02:00:33.244 --> 02:00:36.054
was an enormous loss in terms of.

02:00:36.369 --> 02:00:40.169
Child rearing and being a mom
and not being reliable and let

02:00:40.169 --> 02:00:45.719
alone it being a pretty terrifying
disease and experience to be, you

02:00:45.719 --> 02:00:47.449
know, on the floor with the room.

02:00:47.449 --> 02:00:48.199
Like, you just had had.

02:00:48.759 --> 02:00:53.719
You know, 20 pints of beer kind of
experience, I mean, really violent and

02:00:53.719 --> 02:00:55.689
I ended up having a treatment for that.

02:00:55.979 --> 02:00:58.549
That I tried every
alternative you can imagine.

02:00:58.649 --> 02:01:04.069
And that was unsuccessful that, you know,
really did the trick so I'm extremely

02:01:04.069 --> 02:01:08.719
grateful, but then I lost my hearing
on that side, which was probably gonna,

02:01:08.719 --> 02:01:12.039
you know, they predicted that would
happen, but I was making a bid for life

02:01:12.529 --> 02:01:14.599
that I could function and have a life.

02:01:15.579 --> 02:01:19.289
So we could chalk that up to a
loss of not being able to hear.

02:01:19.289 --> 02:01:22.559
And of course, you know, going
through breast surgeries and losing

02:01:22.569 --> 02:01:24.869
breasts is an enormous, enormous loss.

02:01:24.939 --> 02:01:26.649
I mean, really unspeakable.

02:01:27.239 --> 02:01:30.859
To a woman that's you know, you
got to go somewhere really much

02:01:30.899 --> 02:01:36.499
deeper than our culture to feel what
makes, makes us feminine beings.

02:01:37.329 --> 02:01:42.249
And what else hand surgery, another
genetic problem that my father had

02:01:42.249 --> 02:01:45.299
a being a, being a true Viking.

02:01:45.849 --> 02:01:47.569
The only people who get this are Vikings.

02:01:48.009 --> 02:01:52.279
It's a, it's a hand is a thing called
do patrons contracture where your

02:01:52.279 --> 02:01:54.989
fingers get scar tissue and you can't.

02:01:55.319 --> 02:01:59.799
You can't you, you know, your fingers
start getting pulled down and I had two

02:01:59.799 --> 02:02:02.269
very unsuccessful surgeries with that.

02:02:02.279 --> 02:02:05.909
So I'm kind of left with really
kind of the use really of just 1

02:02:05.919 --> 02:02:07.559
hand, so I can use my other hand.

02:02:07.559 --> 02:02:09.439
It's, it's it's a loss.

02:02:09.449 --> 02:02:10.179
Of course.

02:02:10.779 --> 02:02:11.889
I'm trying to think what else?

02:02:12.199 --> 02:02:16.289
Oh, sort of another ongoing issue
recently, you know, just I was telling

02:02:16.289 --> 02:02:17.809
Rupert just before we started that.

02:02:18.409 --> 02:02:22.789
I have a hard time pronouncing sometimes
because my lip is all numb because I

02:02:22.799 --> 02:02:28.939
had suddenly a, a melanoma emerge on my
lip last summer with out of nowhere and

02:02:28.979 --> 02:02:30.839
boom, you were having major surgery.

02:02:30.839 --> 02:02:35.669
That was you know, pretty traumatic
as well as right on top of the

02:02:35.669 --> 02:02:41.279
heels of a hysterectomy, which you
know, went actually brilliantly

02:02:41.289 --> 02:02:44.939
and kind of coordinated at the
same time that I lost my mom.

02:02:44.939 --> 02:02:45.659
But there was a.

02:02:46.569 --> 02:02:50.719
Interesting that had an interesting
translation is not a loss,

02:02:50.749 --> 02:02:52.459
which was kind of surprising.

02:02:53.529 --> 02:02:58.069
So, there's been a lot and you know,
from 1 point of view, it's kind of a

02:02:58.749 --> 02:03:04.609
dramatic story constantly, in so many
ways over the years, since I was 35 I

02:03:04.609 --> 02:03:09.999
don't take my body for granted and sort
of this constant story of, of remaking

02:03:09.999 --> 02:03:14.389
myself, you know, being taken down and,
you know, it's a very mythic, right?

02:03:14.389 --> 02:03:18.149
Taken down into a kind of darkness
and then having to raise myself back

02:03:18.149 --> 02:03:22.809
up and then being taken down again,
you know, it's a bit of a job story

02:03:22.809 --> 02:03:25.369
and it's in a big drama sense for job.

02:03:25.369 --> 02:03:26.529
It was really dramatic.

02:03:26.969 --> 02:03:35.889
So it's been a powerful teacher for me
a powerful you know, path of, of sort of

02:03:35.899 --> 02:03:40.149
dissolution and renewal and resurrection.

02:03:40.504 --> 02:03:46.774
And also I has absolutely forced me as it
does so many people who go through things

02:03:46.774 --> 02:03:53.104
right through the body to really show
up in the preciousness of this moment.

02:03:53.134 --> 02:03:57.984
You know, I've almost died a few times and
it's like, I, this is not abstract to me.

02:03:58.524 --> 02:04:02.894
At all, and there's a power in
living, you know, waking up every

02:04:02.894 --> 02:04:04.204
morning and saying, thank you.

02:04:05.434 --> 02:04:06.974
Oh, my God, I got another day.

02:04:07.204 --> 02:04:07.754
Thank you.

02:04:08.254 --> 02:04:13.454
So, less has it made me paranoid and
more insanely, insanely grateful.

02:04:14.284 --> 02:04:18.974
Just so grateful and, you know, why
I'm still here is kind of in the

02:04:18.974 --> 02:04:21.514
mystery, but I'm, I'm, I'm on my knees.

02:04:22.249 --> 02:04:27.969
And in gratitude, so, you know, losses,
we all know, because we, there's so

02:04:27.969 --> 02:04:32.069
many forms of loss, whether it's through
the body, or we lost our loved one.

02:04:32.069 --> 02:04:34.389
You know, I lost 1 of my
best friends this summer.

02:04:34.449 --> 02:04:38.819
I mean, this winter and you know,
they're just always an opportunity

02:04:38.819 --> 02:04:44.099
through that pain to find a door
that expands us even further access

02:04:44.099 --> 02:04:46.899
to reach even deeper into life.

02:04:47.854 --> 02:04:52.064
And be inside a mystery that's really
beyond our understanding as well.

02:04:54.594 --> 02:04:57.744
Rupert Isaacson: And through all this
listeners despite having gone on to

02:04:57.744 --> 02:05:05.254
these large stages of film and the non
profit work, having, well, actually for

02:05:05.254 --> 02:05:10.704
profit work, philanthropically, so with
the street business school and beat for

02:05:10.704 --> 02:05:14.764
life and all of this stuff projecting
you onto these, these sort of celeb

02:05:14.774 --> 02:05:19.494
level stages, you've continued to also
just run a therapy practice with people.

02:05:20.074 --> 02:05:22.104
I've seen you go literally
through fire and flood.

02:05:22.474 --> 02:05:25.204
So, Jenny lives in a very
beautiful river valley.

02:05:25.739 --> 02:05:32.549
In Colorado which sometimes flash floods
and when I first met you, you had built

02:05:33.029 --> 02:05:38.149
a stone circle and a cave in which you
were bringing people back into, you know,

02:05:38.149 --> 02:05:39.529
doing your therapy and they're brilliant.

02:05:39.849 --> 02:05:42.419
And then, of course, this massive
flood came in and washed it all away.

02:05:42.679 --> 02:05:43.739
And then there's been fire.

02:05:44.469 --> 02:05:50.169
And, but there's also been the renewal
of that canyon that you live by.

02:05:50.299 --> 02:05:52.919
And again, for those of you who don't,
well, of course you don't know, but

02:05:52.949 --> 02:05:58.279
bears walk past Ginny's window many
mornings and sit in trees and look at her.

02:05:58.279 --> 02:06:02.039
And nature comes down this riparian
corridor from the Rocky Mountains

02:06:02.419 --> 02:06:03.719
into the plains routinely.

02:06:03.719 --> 02:06:07.049
Whenever I've stayed at your house,
Ginny's been lucky enough to do that.

02:06:07.049 --> 02:06:09.929
The wildlife has always
been, the highlights.

02:06:09.929 --> 02:06:11.389
You just sort of sit by.

02:06:11.839 --> 02:06:14.579
In your front porch, you sort
of watch these things come by.

02:06:15.122 --> 02:06:19.302
you keep this sort of humble
therapy service going.

02:06:19.802 --> 02:06:21.032
What's next for you?

02:06:22.732 --> 02:06:24.982
What, what intrigues you to do next?

02:06:24.982 --> 02:06:26.762
What, what's your next offering?

02:06:26.792 --> 02:06:30.082
What can we, I know we're going to be
looking out for Braiding Sweetgrass.

02:06:30.512 --> 02:06:31.802
But what's Ginny up to?

02:06:32.807 --> 02:06:35.497
Ginny Jordan: It's a great question,
and when I turned 70, I really

02:06:35.507 --> 02:06:40.187
started to ask that, you know, it's
like, you know, is the what's next an

02:06:40.187 --> 02:06:44.027
actual initiative project creation?

02:06:44.047 --> 02:06:49.127
Is it something simpler, you know,
is it, you know, I, I'm always

02:06:49.137 --> 02:06:52.457
sort of, as I said, very early
on, it's a call and response life.

02:06:52.467 --> 02:06:57.617
So I'm listening, I'm listening
and hoping, inviting any

02:06:57.667 --> 02:06:59.777
particular synchronicity or.

02:07:00.062 --> 02:07:04.002
Or, you know, how it is when we suddenly
we meet something and something lights up.

02:07:04.642 --> 02:07:08.282
I heard about something 2 days ago
that can't quite tell yet because

02:07:08.612 --> 02:07:12.202
I'm not allowed to allowed to,
but if it were to manifest, it

02:07:12.202 --> 02:07:14.872
would be an amazing co creation.

02:07:15.272 --> 02:07:17.092
But I'm just, you know, really in a deep.

02:07:17.507 --> 02:07:22.847
Moment of pause and, and quietude
tending the hearse, so to speak,

02:07:22.847 --> 02:07:28.077
tending you know, a number of souls
that I'm deeply invested in, in their,

02:07:28.287 --> 02:07:30.717
their emergence and their growth.

02:07:31.347 --> 02:07:35.417
And it's, this doesn't have a
grand scale nor does it need to be.

02:07:35.897 --> 02:07:40.587
So it more than ever at this age and
stage in life, when you're kind of

02:07:40.587 --> 02:07:45.607
in the third act how choicefulness
and right placement becomes.

02:07:46.552 --> 02:07:47.712
Very important.

02:07:48.282 --> 02:07:48.882
What do you mean by

02:07:48.882 --> 02:07:49.672
Rupert Isaacson: right placement?

02:07:51.092 --> 02:07:53.622
Ginny Jordan: Placing myself in the
right place for the right reason.

02:07:53.622 --> 02:07:56.672
It's like the expense of energy, you
know, when you're 20, you know, you,

02:07:56.772 --> 02:08:00.472
you know, your bandwidth is just a
whole lot wider, but now how do I

02:08:00.472 --> 02:08:05.332
place the right, my, you know, with
the right particular talents and gifts

02:08:05.372 --> 02:08:07.632
that I have likely it'll join others.

02:08:07.662 --> 02:08:09.202
Cause that's my favorite thing to do.

02:08:09.222 --> 02:08:14.832
I'm not, you know, the tip of the
arrow usually it's more, it's more

02:08:14.832 --> 02:08:16.872
of a co created field, which I love.

02:08:17.107 --> 02:08:18.547
It's more stimulating for me.

02:08:19.217 --> 02:08:22.387
But, you know, placing myself
in the right moment for the

02:08:22.387 --> 02:08:23.887
right reason in the right place.

02:08:23.887 --> 02:08:24.527
I don't mean that.

02:08:24.967 --> 02:08:28.867
So, like, I have to, like, sleep
over it, but it, it's got to

02:08:28.867 --> 02:08:30.717
feel aligned and more than ever.

02:08:30.717 --> 02:08:33.197
I feel that it's like.

02:08:33.657 --> 02:08:35.147
Time is being measured now.

02:08:35.147 --> 02:08:40.237
And like, really, how do you want to
spend your time in what way I'm super,

02:08:40.497 --> 02:08:44.997
super naturally involved, partly
because I tend to a big piece of land.

02:08:44.997 --> 02:08:46.607
I live on 35 acres.

02:08:47.047 --> 02:08:48.867
I grow a lot of my own food now.

02:08:48.887 --> 02:08:55.007
I'm, I'm really fascinated with
soil and the movement of soil and

02:08:55.027 --> 02:08:59.887
regenerative farming, and I'm very
passionate about next generation.

02:09:00.017 --> 02:09:02.817
You know, I mean, I feel completely
in service to young people.

02:09:02.867 --> 02:09:06.587
And their dreams and their visions and
how I can serve and support them and

02:09:06.597 --> 02:09:09.617
elevate them and mirror, mirror them.

02:09:10.157 --> 02:09:13.777
You know, I less have my shingle out as
like, well, I'm some wise elder, you know,

02:09:13.777 --> 02:09:16.547
that can, it's, I learned just as much.

02:09:16.547 --> 02:09:21.437
I mean, it's a beautiful flow and I'm
happy to offer my gifts and I love

02:09:21.437 --> 02:09:27.207
receiving the passion and the vision
of this next generation and really want

02:09:27.207 --> 02:09:29.137
to be in, you know, I want to live.

02:09:29.647 --> 02:09:33.257
Multi generationally, and I do,
there are different people live on

02:09:33.257 --> 02:09:35.517
my land that are different ages.

02:09:35.517 --> 02:09:37.217
And that's super important to me.

02:09:37.977 --> 02:09:41.677
Rupert Isaacson: So community
regenerative farming engagement land

02:09:41.737 --> 02:09:43.457
engagement with the next generation.

02:09:44.597 --> 02:09:48.177
Ginny Jordan: And some need for something
that I feel is actually going to take

02:09:48.177 --> 02:09:53.757
me further than than my land and boulder
in those beans right in front of me.

02:09:53.757 --> 02:09:54.677
I can feel that.

02:09:54.757 --> 02:09:55.687
I just don't know yet.

02:09:55.877 --> 02:09:57.687
I'll, I'll talk to you in a year room.

02:09:58.237 --> 02:09:58.647
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:09:59.667 --> 02:10:00.577
Ginny Jordan: Hopefully before then.

02:10:01.047 --> 02:10:03.507
Rupert Isaacson: Hopefully, yeah,
hopefully we'll actually make it

02:10:03.627 --> 02:10:07.357
face to face because I tried last
year and you were having in hospital

02:10:07.357 --> 02:10:09.227
with that last thing of yours.

02:10:10.027 --> 02:10:10.667
There we go.

02:10:10.757 --> 02:10:15.097
But now you sit in front of
me radiant with good health,

02:10:15.287 --> 02:10:17.027
which for which I'm grateful.

02:10:17.547 --> 02:10:18.537
Ginny Jordan: Yes, me too.

02:10:20.137 --> 02:10:24.057
Rupert Isaacson: What would be
your closing word of advice for

02:10:24.057 --> 02:10:26.337
somebody who is listening to this?

02:10:27.427 --> 02:10:33.377
And feeling overwhelmed by
the events of the time Israel,

02:10:33.377 --> 02:10:35.077
Ukraine, climate all of it.

02:10:36.057 --> 02:10:36.367
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

02:10:39.377 --> 02:10:40.477
Rupert Isaacson: What's
your message of hope?

02:10:41.387 --> 02:10:42.007
Ginny Jordan: About that.

02:10:43.967 --> 02:10:48.817
Yeah, I'm asking that of myself a lot,
too, because I'm being a sensitive being.

02:10:48.817 --> 02:10:52.550
I'm, you know, the moment I just
heard the recent news with Iran, it's

02:10:52.550 --> 02:10:56.332
just I didn't know what to do, but go
down and build a fire, you know, and

02:10:57.492 --> 02:10:57.722
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

02:10:57.722 --> 02:11:02.812
Ginny Jordan: you know, yeah, I think
for those that feel called and feel it's

02:11:02.862 --> 02:11:08.022
part of their path, part of the perhaps
quest of these times is how can I grow

02:11:08.022 --> 02:11:13.962
myself to be the candle in the hurricane?

02:11:14.672 --> 02:11:20.322
Wind of the planet these days, how
can I grow myself to be steady enough,

02:11:20.392 --> 02:11:24.262
take care of my own nervous system, be
responsible for my own nervous system,

02:11:24.262 --> 02:11:28.052
because by definition, just taking
a breath is stressful on the planet.

02:11:28.722 --> 02:11:32.432
You know, if we really want to analyze
what we're breathing, right, what kind

02:11:32.432 --> 02:11:36.992
of air we have, what we're drinking, you
know, just everywhere you, you know, all

02:11:36.992 --> 02:11:39.662
layers of life, it's just by definition.

02:11:39.672 --> 02:11:41.442
And so no shame about.

02:11:42.272 --> 02:11:47.172
Being in stress, because it is
uncertainty is stressful, but I, I

02:11:47.182 --> 02:11:53.362
feel like our job and our quest is
perhaps guides and future leaders.

02:11:53.362 --> 02:11:55.942
And however, we want to shape our lives.

02:11:55.982 --> 02:11:58.002
Can we grow that?

02:11:58.502 --> 02:12:04.522
You know, determination and strength
of that light to be steady and and,

02:12:05.212 --> 02:12:10.532
and be that not by what we do by
how we are by the emanation of our

02:12:10.532 --> 02:12:16.582
being back to the quality of our
heart and our capacity to feel joy.

02:12:17.087 --> 02:12:19.577
even in spite of all of this.

02:12:19.587 --> 02:12:21.757
That's a bright light that people need.

02:12:22.437 --> 02:12:24.877
Rupert Isaacson: It's the first
step to simply ask the question,

02:12:24.877 --> 02:12:26.697
how can I feel joy in these times?

02:12:27.607 --> 02:12:27.887
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

02:12:27.907 --> 02:12:34.517
And, and real joy and not an
unapologetically joyful, unapologetically,

02:12:35.347 --> 02:12:39.267
because many people now are apologizing
because whoops, how can I have that

02:12:39.267 --> 02:12:46.007
when, you know, Gazans are not, you know,
the palace there, they have no food.

02:12:46.017 --> 02:12:48.597
It was like, how do you
put all these paradoxes?

02:12:49.222 --> 02:12:52.802
Together, it's, it's an impossible task.

02:12:52.802 --> 02:12:59.102
And so what is it, you know, you know,
you have to some in a somewhere assume

02:12:59.102 --> 02:13:03.982
that the highest, the highest aspect
of all beans want us, you know, so

02:13:03.982 --> 02:13:06.212
we can be joyful while you be joyful.

02:13:06.742 --> 02:13:07.342
Rupert Isaacson: To be joy.

02:13:08.007 --> 02:13:12.007
Ginny Jordan: In this moment, we're
not starving, okay, we might, you

02:13:12.007 --> 02:13:15.727
know, we might just swing around
who knows, you know, climate

02:13:15.727 --> 02:13:17.927
change hit me hard for three years.

02:13:18.147 --> 02:13:21.227
I lost pretty much every tree on my land.

02:13:21.237 --> 02:13:22.737
I mean, it was like, okay.

02:13:22.737 --> 02:13:24.077
And then I was 1 of those people.

02:13:24.077 --> 02:13:27.757
I mean, we're, we're going to
rotate around, but be joyful.

02:13:28.287 --> 02:13:30.047
And, you know, what does that mean?

02:13:30.047 --> 02:13:31.177
What brings you joy?

02:13:31.927 --> 02:13:35.917
What really, really brings you joy
and it could be something so crazy.

02:13:35.927 --> 02:13:39.067
Like I love, I really love
playing games, board games.

02:13:39.517 --> 02:13:39.977
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:13:40.657 --> 02:13:41.117
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

02:13:41.207 --> 02:13:41.807
Okay.

02:13:42.207 --> 02:13:43.007
That's what I love.

02:13:43.047 --> 02:13:44.807
You better play some board games, Jenny.

02:13:45.567 --> 02:13:45.947
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:13:46.717 --> 02:13:47.187
Ginny Jordan: Right.

02:13:47.497 --> 02:13:49.407
Rupert Isaacson: I would like to play a
board game with you next time I see you.

02:13:49.787 --> 02:13:50.217
Ginny Jordan: Hey, good.

02:13:50.217 --> 02:13:51.427
I'll teach you some cool ones.

02:13:51.807 --> 02:13:52.207
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:13:52.617 --> 02:13:52.907
I'm on.

02:13:54.777 --> 02:13:55.167
. Yes.

02:13:55.167 --> 02:13:55.527
Joy.

02:13:55.527 --> 02:13:56.337
To be Joy.

02:13:57.077 --> 02:13:57.407
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

02:13:57.412 --> 02:13:57.992
To be joy.

02:13:58.372 --> 02:13:58.912
To be joy.

02:13:58.917 --> 02:13:59.027
Yeah.

02:13:59.537 --> 02:14:00.887
And it can take lots of shapes.

02:14:00.887 --> 02:14:03.437
I mean, it's not all like whoopee,
you know, but it's, it's a

02:14:03.437 --> 02:14:07.157
quality where you keep your light
on, is what I'm trying to say.

02:14:08.047 --> 02:14:12.787
You keep, you keep yourself lit and
whatever, whatever ingredients you need to

02:14:12.787 --> 02:14:18.067
keep that yourself lit, that that serves
you and it serves everyone around you.

02:14:18.307 --> 02:14:19.057
'cause they can feel.

02:14:20.297 --> 02:14:22.447
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, because we
all know that if someone else is

02:14:22.447 --> 02:14:26.297
not shining the candle and we can't
see any light, then we despair.

02:14:27.527 --> 02:14:29.507
We're so grateful when
someone is shining the candle.

02:14:30.047 --> 02:14:30.407
Ginny Jordan: Yeah.

02:14:31.052 --> 02:14:34.522
Even if it's subtle it's and
again, you can't mock it up.

02:14:34.522 --> 02:14:35.532
It's not a script.

02:14:36.252 --> 02:14:39.912
It's an arrival It's a real arrival

02:14:40.782 --> 02:14:42.952
Rupert Isaacson: in the mentorship
work in the therapy work you do.

02:14:42.962 --> 02:14:45.482
I know you're a very private person so
you don't necessarily have to give out

02:14:45.532 --> 02:14:52.562
a a Contact or anything like that, but
I'm sure people would like to benefit

02:14:52.632 --> 02:14:54.872
from reach out, learn more, read more.

02:14:55.512 --> 02:14:58.562
Are there any resources that
you've got that people could go to?

02:15:00.012 --> 02:15:01.842
Ginny Jordan: Yeah, they're
welcome to email me.

02:15:01.842 --> 02:15:06.112
They may not get a long one back because
I can't, I can't be behind a device for

02:15:06.112 --> 02:15:09.452
too long, but I love hearing from people.

02:15:09.452 --> 02:15:13.822
And if, if everybody's good
with just not necessarily,

02:15:13.872 --> 02:15:15.592
you know, three page response.

02:15:16.602 --> 02:15:17.332
I'm happy to give

02:15:17.332 --> 02:15:19.512
Rupert Isaacson: people if people
have a question that they would

02:15:19.512 --> 02:15:20.662
like to ask you in a bit of

02:15:21.642 --> 02:15:24.202
Ginny Jordan: that'd be the best way, but

02:15:24.382 --> 02:15:28.642
Rupert Isaacson: just not be attached
to you sending it back and perhaps

02:15:28.702 --> 02:15:31.432
you perhaps you prefer them not
to send you a 10 page epistle.

02:15:31.972 --> 02:15:34.492
As well that take, that
glues you to the screen.

02:15:34.642 --> 02:15:35.122
You have to read

02:15:35.122 --> 02:15:36.892
Ginny Jordan: prob probably Yep.

02:15:36.892 --> 02:15:38.077
But to be

02:15:38.077 --> 02:15:38.812
Rupert Isaacson: me to you.

02:15:39.412 --> 02:15:41.032
Ginny Jordan: But I
love, I love to respond.

02:15:41.602 --> 02:15:41.842
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:15:41.847 --> 02:15:43.047
Ginny Jordan: Because, but how can

02:15:43.047 --> 02:15:43.967
Rupert Isaacson: people reach you that,

02:15:44.272 --> 02:15:47.872
Ginny Jordan: that's the cycle
of life call and response.

02:15:47.872 --> 02:15:52.287
So it's gi, G-I-N-N-Y-G-I-Y,

02:15:52.632 --> 02:15:52.962
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

02:15:53.322 --> 02:15:54.642
Ginny Jordan: J-O-R-D-A-N.

02:15:55.552 --> 02:15:56.032
Rupert Isaacson: Jordan.

02:15:56.032 --> 02:15:57.322
J-O-R-D-A-N.

02:15:57.367 --> 02:15:57.707
One word.

02:15:58.742 --> 02:15:59.902
Ginny Jordan: 53, yep,

02:16:00.302 --> 02:16:00.542
Rupert Isaacson: 53,

02:16:01.482 --> 02:16:02.482
Ginny Jordan: at gmail.

02:16:02.522 --> 02:16:02.922
com,

02:16:03.082 --> 02:16:03.922
Rupert Isaacson: at gmail.

02:16:03.982 --> 02:16:08.392
com, all one word
lowercase, Ginny Jordan, 53,

02:16:09.412 --> 02:16:09.432
Ginny Jordan: at

02:16:09.762 --> 02:16:10.302
Rupert Isaacson: gmail.

02:16:10.312 --> 02:16:10.522
com.

02:16:11.072 --> 02:16:13.102
Ginny Jordan: That's a dead
giveaway when I was born.

02:16:16.112 --> 02:16:17.272
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it
must have been a good year.

02:16:17.272 --> 02:16:17.592
It

02:16:18.272 --> 02:16:18.672
Ginny Jordan: was.

02:16:20.682 --> 02:16:21.672
Rupert Isaacson: Ginny, thank you.

02:16:22.877 --> 02:16:23.237
Ginny Jordan: Thank you.

02:16:23.447 --> 02:16:24.617
That was super fun.

02:16:25.347 --> 02:16:26.307
Rupert Isaacson: I'm grateful.

02:16:26.547 --> 02:16:27.717
I'm grateful to know you.

02:16:27.807 --> 02:16:29.787
I'm grateful for the work that you do.

02:16:29.797 --> 02:16:32.217
I'm grateful you're in the world.

02:16:32.267 --> 02:16:33.627
I'm grateful you're my friend.

02:16:34.567 --> 02:16:36.027
I'm grateful.

02:16:36.267 --> 02:16:36.757
Thank you.

02:16:38.247 --> 02:16:38.657
Ginny Jordan: Thank you.

02:16:40.017 --> 02:16:42.617
So, so sweet to connect again.

02:16:42.617 --> 02:16:43.837
Let's do it soon.

02:16:45.747 --> 02:16:46.147
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:16:46.157 --> 02:16:47.731
I'm going to press the red button.

02:16:47.731 --> 02:16:48.447
Much love.

02:16:48.447 --> 02:16:50.239
Much, much love to you.

02:16:51.145 --> 02:16:52.255
Thank you for joining us.

02:16:52.285 --> 02:16:54.115
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:16:54.354 --> 02:16:59.394
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:16:59.394 --> 02:17:04.584
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02:17:05.291 --> 02:17:09.939
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02:17:09.939 --> 02:17:11.949
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02:17:12.277 --> 02:17:16.027
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02:17:23.615 --> 02:17:25.535
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02:17:26.072 --> 02:17:30.632
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