Journalist #1: The Guardian, ninth December 2000. There is something intimidating about Stephen Sondheim. It's not him, it's his reputation. In person, the promise is of a man whose theatrical analysis of emotion is so forensic and whose lyrics are so intricate and accurate that he is not just too clever by half, but by three quarters.
Journalist #2: "For me, there is no other," enthuses the actress Julia McKenzie, his most brilliant interpreter in Britain. "But when I meet him", she adds, "Often my syntax breaks down".
Journalist #3: The Times, twenty fifth May 2025. Tony and Emmy winner Jane Krakowksi said of Sondheim, "I've never met anybody who's that precise. He was intimidating."
Martin Milnes: The world views Steve as an icon, and to many, an icon is intimidating. Steve's presence and reputation seems to bring theatrical giants to their knees. But was this label as a scary intellectual really warranted? Christine Baranski is the winner of an Emmy and two Tony Awards. She's also a frequent Sondheim interpreter. How did Christine feel around Steve?
Christine Baranski: I'm a Catholic girl, so I'm always feeling like I'm not worthy. I never felt worthy to be his friend. I didn't feel I had the intelligence to converse with him.
Martin Milnes: So when you first worked with Steve, did you find him intimidating?
Christine Baranski: You know, everybody talks about how intimidating Steve is and well, yes, he is intimidating because he's a genius. I mean, a true genius. So when you were in a room with him and you were singing, you you would you would feel like you were being looked at by laser like eyes.
Martin Milnes: And how did you overcome this?
Christine Baranski: I finally got past the crippling fear of being in a room with him to realizing that his notes and his observations were deeply collaborative. You would think he'd be a sharp critic. His manner could be a little intimidating or acerbic. He just had that fierce intelligence and that extraordinary use of words. But if you got past that, you realized that Steve loved collaboration. That was what he was there for, was to collaborate with everyone Yes. To make it better.
Martin Milnes: Was there ever a time Steve made things better for you?
Christine Baranski: Yes. Indeed. I never believed that I could sing. You know, I had great insecurities about standing in front of people and singing. I was traumatized by a nun in Catholic school who made fun of my singing. I was in one of the great musical flops of Broadway history. History is called Nick and Nora. Arthur Laurents was the book writer and director. It was going very badly. I had one musical number. Hal Prince came and said "That's gotta go". And then they put another musical number. It was the unhappiest theater experience of my career. But Steve saw the second number that was put in. He must have come early on.
"My career is a near dead end. Always cast as someone's friend. Found a vocal coach who took me far, and he said I had the biggest range". "November 11th 1991. Dear Christine, I saw the show Thursday night and would have stopped backstage except that I hate doing that sort of thing and I had a lot to talk to Arthur about immediately afterwards. The point of this note is merely to tell you that your singing has become astonishingly good and that it is wonderful to see you in a musical again. I hope you'll be in one of mine again. Congratulations, Steve." Hung it up. That's what it meant to me.
Martin Milnes: Welcome to Loving You, The Untold A podcast made by Steve's friends with Steve's friends. Hosted by me, Martin Milnes.
Peter E Jones: And me, Peter E. Jones.
Martin Milnes: PJ, there's a popular myth that Steve was a dark, brooding, and scary intellectual. And if there's one word which keeps being applied to Steve, it's intimidating. But as Christine said, he only ever wanted to make things better. So I think this label of intimidating is the last thing Steve would have wanted.
Peter E Jones: I think this idea of him being intimidating is based on a reputation that was built, not necessarily his own doing. It's simply part of the process of what happens with an icon. Somebody with his intellect and the work that he's done makes people feel that. He has to be intimidating. So he's already intimidating before you encounter him, you see. Whether it was my own naivete or otherwise, I was never intimidated by him. But people also don't understand that he was intimidated, could be intimidated by others, and had his own insecurities. Somehow people don't think he had any insecurities. I don't know if that's the icon thing again, but he certainly had insecurities. He once said to me, I feel like a walking imposition. A walking imposition. Gosh. Does that not speak of insecurity as a person? And I truly understood what that was when that's probably a way that he and I had a a meeting of minds and hearts was that feeling that you're even taking up space in the world is a presumption on your part.
Martin Milnes: And do you think that went back to the treatment he received from his mother?
Peter E Jones: Oh, probably. If it was already there, she stoked it. Let's put it that way. It's always a combination of our genetic selves and the environment that we grew up in. He had his insecurities, his personal insecurities. I was witness to them on more than one occasion, and I understood them.
Martin Milnes: So it just shows that you never know what's going on in somebody's private life. And yet, people persisted in calling Steve not just intimidating, but also prickly.
Peter E Jones: Prickly goes hand in hand with the intimidating thing. I think if somebody is feeling intimidated, then the next thing they're going to feel is that he's prickly because they're ultra sensitive to whatever it is he says or does. I think his prickly behavior has been blown out of proportion. So many people want his approval. That's something I've seen a lot. People want to impress him and they want his approval. So I do think that some people feel bruised when they don't get it. And when they don't get the approval or they aren't able to impress him, the response is that maybe he's attacked them in some way. And that's not to say he's never been prickly to anyone. We've all had these experiences where we got up on the wrong side of the bed, and we just can't help the response.
Martin Milnes: But these stories are not an accurate reflection of Steve's character. We've seen the love and loyalty he inspired in his friends and indeed those who worked for him.
Peter E Jones: His staff were like his family, and they were very important to him. His right hand, shall we say, his personal secretary, Steven Clar, was with him for thirty five years. Steve's housekeeper, Celsa De Azanza, was with him for over thirty years.
Martin Milnes: Now Celsa, of course, comes from Chile, where she was formerly a business professional. So she valued how well Steve treated his staff. And indeed, despite a language barrier, Steve and Celsa formed a very warm relationship.
Peter E Jones: They did. They most certainly did. Celsa absolutely adored El Senor.
Celsa De Azanza: He gave me the impression of a shy person, very polite, kind, loving in his own way. I think it was difficult for him to show his feelings, sometimes withdrawn and very thoughtful and also very lonely. That's how I saw it. As I worked for him over the years, he opened up a little. I mean, he showed himself a little more as I got to know him. I have so many memories, like pangeless generosity, his politeness in thanking me for any gift I gave him for for his special holidays, Christmas, birthdays, his simplicity and humility in asking for anything he needed, always giving thanks for everything. Of the partners El threw, I must say that everyone left happy. El Senor was the life of the party, and he gave his time to each friend. It was heartwarming to see him with his guests. He felt great joy at these parties.
Martin Milnes: PJ, Celsa's portrait of Steve really captures the man loved by all his friends, especially a very notable lady in Steve's life, Julia McKenzie.
Peter E Jones: Steve absolutely loved Julia McKenzie, as do I, by the way. She's my favorite Mrs Lovett ever.
Martin Milnes: Julia really saw a very different side to Steve than many others, and she kindly shared these beautiful memories when I visited her for a wonderful chat in Julia's beautiful garden by the sea.
Julia McKenzie: He really was absolutely like Marshmallow inside. God knows intellectually I'm nowhere near a partnership with him. I'm really breathless that we became friends. I didn't think that we would gel as people, but we did. Why don't you start talking with him? There's no end to it. You know, mate, it just goes on and on. So he used to walk me back to I had a little studio flat and he'd come up, we'd continue with all red wine and I'd think, chat, chat chat chat. When I left that flat I wanted to take the chair with me because he used to sit in the same chair and he's got an extraordinary sense of humour. Time he phoned and said look I've got to do this thing and they're giving me another gong somewhere. Do you want to come or or would you rather eat glass?
Peter E Jones: So Julia has hit the nail on head. That is who Steve really was. But nonetheless, this image of intimidating and prickly still sits, doesn't it?
Martin Milnes: I'd say that if Steve was ever prickly, usually, there was always a damn good reason. But I think how one responded to Steve's ire made all the difference. Steve could respect someone like Andre Bishop, for instance, who learned from the experience. Andre produced the original Sunday in the Park with George at Playwrights Horizons, and there was an incident backstage with Steve, which could have been disastrous for Andre. But Andre recognized that Steve wasn't acting irrationally, and indeed, turned his faux pas into something positive.
Andre Bishop: I got one of many lessons that I learned from Stephen Sondheim, and I learned many lessons from him. I was so overcome by it all, the first preview, and exhausted by it. I was also feeling insecure around him. At the end of the preview, I didn't say anything to him or to James Lapine. I I just sort of hovered around and floated around and then went home. And the next morning, I was in my office and they buzzed back and said, Steven Sondheim is on his way to see you. And I thought, oh my god, what? Well, this how wonderful. And Steve came in very angry at me and he need he should have been and he said, I'll never forget this. He said, you did something unforgivable last night. And I said, what? And he said, you were the producer of this show and you had two nervous authors in the lobby after the first performance and you didn't say one word about the show, never do that again, and I never have. I mean, I that was a lesson learned and very gratefully learned fairly early on in my career.
Peter E Jones: Andre did the right thing by moving on and not dwelling on the situation because that was something Steve did often. If he did say something critical like this, he wouldn't dwell on it. You would think he'd be dwelling on it, but he wouldn't. He'd moved on and sometimes even forgot he told you that. So I'm glad that, Andre could move on from it because they maintained a great relationship with each other. You know, in addition, I think many colleagues and acquaintances, they didn't understand that Steve actually liked to be challenged. He liked, having to reach for something, and one of the things that did impress him greatly was if somebody challenged him in some way. Challenged him either intellectually or just with a thought that never occurred to him. You give him something that never occurred to him. That's a piece of gold right there. But, you know, the demanding curiosity was another way that Steve pushed himself as well as others. If you're willing to be curious and ask the questions, in a way a risky thing to do, you ask a question, you're exposing your ignorance. And he wasn't afraid to ask a question, to keep learning, learning and growing. Again, two very important things to him. I think his close friends Frank Rich and Maria Friedman personally discovered this.
Maria Friedman: He was the most present man, which is something I definitely am. He was the most curious human being, always wanting to know more, that there's always more questions to be asked. And he was youngest and most energetic in the room.
Frank Rich: He loved new experiences and he was curious about everything in the simplest form it took. My wife Alex knows a lot about restaurants. He said, you know, you pick a place, but he said, there's one criterion. It has to be a restaurant I've never been to and a restaurant you've never been to. And it became a challenge at a certain point, and we went to some very hilarious places. In the East Village restaurant no longer exists in New York. We had a kind of deconstructed postmodern food, almost be like kind of a Jacques Tati movie, you know, and Steve was completely into it. You know, the food would probably be an odd shaped, certain piece of meat shaped to look like a fish or a radish shaped to look like a lamb chop, whatever. And he would pick it up and examine it, almost like a high school nerd in biology class looking at a sample to try to figure out what it was before putting it under the test tube. He completely was curious.
Martin Milnes: DJ, all this makes total sense to anyone lucky enough to have known Steve well. But what do you think acquaintances and strangers made of Steve when meeting him in public for the first time?
Peter E Jones: I can answer this even from a personal basis because the same thing happens to me. I think many people find him aloof in a first time situation like a party, and what they don't understand is he's shot and he's uncomfortable. I was once told that I was standing in judgment and being condescending when I was trying to hold up the wall and hide. That's all I was doing. Wow. And I was told you look so judgmental and condescending. That's the difference of it. So I know that that happened to him. I know that people thought he was standing back and writing his judgments over everybody when he's afraid. He's scared. In a personal situation where he has a handful of friends in a room, he's very relaxed and animated and affable. But I think it is interesting that people are judging his behavior in a room full of strangers where sort of everybody's on their guard if nobody knows each other, you know. It's like being in the shark tank, you're just afraid and it's hard to get relaxed. Why do you think they have cocktails at these things?
Martin Milnes: I'd like to investigate this and chat to friends who witnessed Steve in these public settings.
Peter E Jones: I think that's a great idea, Martin, and you know who should start with, Adam Guettel. Not only was he one of Steve's proteges, but he's known Steve all of his life.
Martin Milnes: Okay then. Let's chat to Adam and picture ourselves at a typical society cocktail party, the type that Steve always found uncomfortable. Adam, what was Steve like in this environment?
Adam Guettel: He was an edgy guy, especially socially. He he wasn't that comfortable in in large groups that I could tell, partly because people were always sort of coming up to him and subjecting him where he had to sort of act, you know, and and act like he was comfortable. We'd be at a party at the princess, and I'd be talking to him. And he says, 'Stay here. Just keep your back to the room. Hide me!' Because some lovely angel investor for one of his shows, you know, some 80 year old lady with tons of money and blue hair would wanna come up and and just buttonhole him or whatever.
Prince Party Matron: Oh, Mr Sondheim!
Adam Guettel: And he would just say, 'Don't let her near me! Just stay here! I just! I just! Hide me! Let's talk!' You know? If he wasn't in the mood, it just really made him uncomfortable.
Martin Milnes: Ann Morrison starred in the original Merrily We Roll Along. What did she note about Steve in public?
Ann Morrison: He's so funny with women. I I I observed this by standing back in the room. It's like he's uncomfortable talking to women, you know. I always thought wondered if if he had a little bit of Asperger's because he was so socially awkward. I loved it. But women was funny unless he had a really into a wonderful intellectual conversation. Sometimes I would say snarky stuff and I could see it go right over his head.
Martin Milnes: Steve's close friend Ronan Farrow agrees that with women, Steve could be awkward.
Ronan Farrow: Women in particular, I think he he had all these complicated relationships with, and he would talk about that going back to his relationship with his mother. He was as great and dynamic and intellect as I ever encountered. People were, like, intimidated and afraid of him at times. You know, I remember talking to pretty ferocious people in their own right who would then say, like, 'Oh, I'm so intimidated by Steve!' Liza Minnelli, I think I remember saying that she was so intimidated by him and, like, Lauren Bacall before she died, who was a pretty intimidating lady herself, saying, like, 'Oh, I'm so, I'm so scared of Steve.'
Martin Milnes: There's that intimidation again. Ann Morrison was unafraid to be snarky with Steve, so could she see beneath the intellectual surface?
Ann Morrison: He's so interesting because he acts like someone who doesn't connect emotionally and yet listen to his music. So on a personal level when you're with him, it it always seems like he can't really handle the the emotional moments of stuff, so he masks himself in the intellectual, intellectual, but there's a very soft person there. But I know I'm always enchanted by his social awkwardness.
Martin Milnes: Back to Adam Guettel. Adam, in a social setting, how do you think Steve came across to strangers?
Adam Guettel: His being socially uncomfortable would read to people as if he was mean or off putting or dismissive or any of that. It was never that, I don't think. He he just wasn't a mean guy. And in some ways, the most talented people are the least mean as far as far as this circle is concerned.
Martin Milnes: And, Adam, if strangers did have a negative encounter with Steve, did you find that they held on to this and that, for them, this one experience determined what Steve must actually be like?
Adam Guettel: You know, it's funny. After he died, I got two kinds of phone calls.
Caller #1: Hey. How are doing, Adam? I know you were really close to Steve, so I just wanted to say I really am sorry for your loss. I know he's been an important part of your whole life. So if you ever wanna talk, I'm here.
Adam Guettel: The other phone call was
Caller #2: Hey. How are you doing, Adam? I feel so bad. I I heard about Steve and just wanted to check-in and see you're okay.
Adam Guettel: And then they would say ---
Caller #2: You know, Steve was a real asshole to me. He was so mean to me this one time. Do you know what he did? Well, I'll tell you. I went up and he was talking to these other people and he didn't acknowledge me. So I said to him
Caller #3: Sondheim wrote me the nastiest letter and I've never forgotten it. I know he was nice to you, but I always found him to be just really cold and distant. But I do know that's ---
Caller #4: Sondheim gave me this note and it was like so harsh. So now whenever I hear the name Sondheim, I just always think how mean he could be and how nasty he was to me that one time.
Adam Guettel: As if I was gonna be an intermediary. Even though he was dead, I was gonna somehow be able to sort of like get some revenge on him or somehow communicate these slights to Steve in the afterlife. You know, this is so funny. The pretense of calling was simply and then to say
Caller #4: He was a real jerk, that guy.
Adam Guettel: And he wasn't. He just knew. He was mad at you, which he was a few times maybe for various reasons. Very few, two times maybe. He'd write you a note immediately and sort of burn your ass, and then next time he saw him, he was loving and fine. He had that kind of temper. It was quick. It was a flash, then it was over. But if people didn't have the great privilege of being with him a lot or or somewhat regularly, they they thought
Caller #4: Sondheim's angry at me forever, and it was unjust. Sondheim's an asshole.
Adam Guettel: And my mother was the same way, just, you know, real flashing anger, and then it was gone. It was out out of them.
Martin Milnes: Adam's mother, Mary Rodgers, was Steve's lifelong friend, but their deep love was punctuated by many fallings out. At a Merrily reunion dinner, Ann Morrison discovered just how sensitive Steve could be about Mary.
Ann Morrison: Steve was sitting at the table with us guys. We were just chatting away, and he said something about Mary Rodgers. Because I don't know if you know, I modeled Mary Flynn after Mary Rodgers. Anyway, I said, oh, how's Mary Rodgers? And he said, she's dead. And I went, and everybody turned and looked, we all got quiet because I had been in New York for a while. Did she die and I didn't get that news? You know? I was mortified, then he he realized what he had done. And he said, "Well, you know", he says, some snide remark. "I don't know where she is right now." Blah blah blah. And Daisy Prince leaned in and said, "Well, you know, they have this ongoing fight every once in a while, and she sent him a present of a bar of soap. In other words, take a shower!" So he was mad at her.
Martin Milnes: Ted Chapin, former president of the Rodgers and Hammerstein organization, knew both Steve and Mary well.
Ted Chapin: I think they were in love with each other, understanding that that phrase can be defined in many different ways. And the evening that that to me was most telling, there was some dumb evening at the Rainbow Room, and Steve and Mary were sitting. And I looked at them and they looked like two giggly teenagers. And I just thought to myself, oh my god, that's like two people and they're in love with each other. And it was like, that's kind of amazing. And they'd known each forever. And it was a roller coaster because they would I think Mary would piss Steve off more than Steve would piss Mary off. But I always thought, uh-oh, uh-oh, let's get through this. Let's just let this one ride itself out. She just took such pride in their friendship and obviously Steve cared about what Mary thought about his work. And she would get so excited about that. I remember she went, there was a workshop of Passion that I did not see. And she just flipped. She said, you know, "He's he's writing about love! He's writing about love for the first time! This is real." And I thought, You know, coming from you, that's interesting.
Peter E Jones: Martin, all this is fascinating. You know, and right on the money. But I think another reason why Steve has been labeled prickly, even by close friends, is because everyone cares so much about what he thinks. An apparent slight from Steve can be remembered for decades and blown out of proportion, whereas Steve himself would have forgotten all about it. I think it even happened to one of his closest friends like Mia Farrow who remembers one incident in particular.
Mia Farrow: One of Steve's birthdays I was asked to do the emcee but he was annoyed because I had striped socks on. And so at the end of the show, he's like, what's with the striped socks? I said, it's a fashion statement. He goes, oh, oh, oh. But I could tell he wasn't pleased that I was wearing.
Peter E Jones: You know that he could barely pull on a T-shirt. Why would he care if you were elegantly dressed or not?
Mia Farrow: I don't know.
Peter E Jones: See, this is what a lot of people do with him. They're so sure that he's judging them.
Mia Farrow: I think he was judging my selection of socks.
Peter E Jones: I think he noticed them.
Mia Farrow: He noticed them in a negative way. Negative enough to mention the socks.
Peter E Jones: So it was a big event and he saw the that he ---
Mia Farrow: And I was up there ---
Peter E Jones: With Margaret Hamilton's socks for the Exactly.
Mia Farrow: He's not happy with that.
Martin Milnes: Well, PJ, clearly everyone, even close friends like Mia, remember perceived slights against them from Steve. But let's not forget that Steve always remembered perceived slights against him. And they seemed to be cataloged in what you call the card file Steve kept in his memory.
Peter E Jones: It's as if he would go into it and rummage through the index cards until he found the particular excerpt that he had committed to memory of whatever it was he was going to talk about. One day, we were riding in the car and a piece by Menotti came on the radio And it was really good. And I said to him, "He's underrated, isn't he?" And Steve said, "I think so. But he took a swipe at me in 1967". So then I thought, there he went right to his filing cabinet and pulled out "Menotti: 1967 took a swipe at me!" you know. But to this day, I don't know what the swipe was.
Martin Milnes: This brings up an interesting question because fellow composers, as we know, can be extremely competitive. Do you think Steve was jealous of Menotti? And was Steve ever jealous of any other composers?
Peter E Jones: Jealous. I don't know. I don't know about whether he would have been or not. That's something to me that's special about Steve. It was always how much he loved something and how much he loved a composer or what they did. He also played for me a song that he loved the music to and hated the lyric to, and that was Schmidt and Jones 'Celebration'. And I remember him saying to me, "Alright, you've gotta hear this, this, this wonderful music!" Because he did respect Harvey Schmidt's music a lot. But he equally hated Tom Jones' lyrics. And he said, I could see him now putting the tonearm, just getting ready to put it down on the record and saying, "Again, ignore the ghastly lyric!" Never forget that!
So even in that, he was acknowledging a wonderful piece of music. That's how I remember him. He had rivalries with different people like Leonard Bernstein, for example, the two of them. Had a mostly friendly rivalry. Mostly. But there were times where I think it can be safely said today that Lenny was jealous of Steve, particularly over one show, Sweeney Todd. Steve played 'The Ballad of Sweeney Todd', the opening for Lenny night in his study. And as he was finishing it up, he could see Lenny getting red in the face. And he kind of crossed his arms and said, 'Well! We all know where you got THAT!' Referring to the fact that Steve used the Dies Irae as a theme in 'The Ballad of Sweeney Todd'. And so Lenny went right for the jugular on that. But it was clear that it was a piece that demanded that Lenny really acknowledge him as a composer.
Martin Milnes: Well, there are very few writers, I think, whose reputations or talent could make Steve jealous. But I'm fascinated that Steve definitely had an issue with one particular lyricist, the great W. S. Gilbert of musical theater's founding fathers, Gilbert and Sullivan. And I wonder if this is because early in Steve's career, although everyone loved his lyrics, they told him, "You're almost as good as Gilbert". Now Steve didn't like being told, you're almost as good a lyricist as Gilbert, and Lenny Bernstein knew this. So on opening night of Company, Steve's breakthrough as a composer, Lenny came backstage and said to Steve, "Not since Gilbert!"
Peter E Jones: Well, is so typical of Lenny. That just shows you the rivalry between them, that he would dismiss the music and then pick a lyricist that would really cut into Steve like a knife, you know. Well, at least Steve didn't hold a grudge against Lenny. He didn't stop speaking to him for long periods like, can we say, Mary Rodgers or Arthur Laurents. Right?
Martin Milnes: But there's someone else Steve didn't speak to for a very long period, Broadway actor Laurence Guittard. And it's a curious example of Steve's prickliness. In 1973, Laurence Guittard received a Tony nomination as Carl Magnus in A Little Night Music, and anyone who's heard the cast album knows that Larry was one of the great baritones of his generation.
Laurence Guittard: "If the woman were perfection, she'd have simply lied, which would have been wonderful".
Martin Milnes: Over twenty years later, in 1995, Larry returned to night music, this time playing Frederik at London's National Theatre opposite Dame Judi Dench.
Peter E Jones: Steve and I went to London for rehearsals, and Larry was just terrific, as was Judi.
Martin Milnes: But prior to the National, there had been a long period of no contact between Larry and Steve, initiated by Steve. And as years rolled by, Larry encountered other strange things with Steve as well.
Peter E Jones: Yeah. And I find that odd because Steve never ever spoke badly about Larry to me.
Martin Milnes: Well, the weird dynamic between Steve and Larry Guittard is worth exploring in detail, especially because Larry is also a composer. So now let's chat to Larry and Judi and see if we can solve the puzzle of Steve's prickly relationship with the star of A Little Night Music, Laurence Guittard! Larry, in 1973, when Night Music opened, did you and Steve get on well?
Laurence Guittard: There were certainly many charming moments with Steve. We had a treasure hunt, at the theater. He went to a lot of trouble. We had clues and we had to find things. Steve was a game person. And I think games were always present in your relationship with him. You know, I was invited to his home, and apart from the fact that it always felt like a test, I appreciated what I got from him, but you always were being evaluated, I believe.
Martin Milnes: And like all of us, you admired his work.
Laurence Guittard: He was unique in his time. I'll I'll tell you a wonderful line that Jonathan Tunick said to me, and I believe it is the absolute truth about Steve. He said, 'Steve is not the beginning of something. He's the end of something'. And that's true. You can't go anywhere from Steve. But Steve was the finish of the great musical theater time in the United States. And I certainly admire him in every way, but his way is not my way. So I'm not a cynical person, and he certainly was on the page. It may have been one of the reasons that there was a tension between us and all, although I never ever said anything disparaging to him about his talent.
Martin Milnes: You say his way is not my way, so what exactly happened between you?
Laurence Guittard: He wasn't speaking to me for twelve years. I had just moved to Los Angeles and bought a house, and he called me and said he wanted me to play the critic in Sunday in the Park. And I, in the most tactful way, declined, that I just thought I couldn't leave at that moment. And then that was not helpful. So he did not speak to me until after the first rehearsal he saw of night music in London.
Martin Milnes: So to clarify, this first rehearsal is for the night music London revival with Judi.
Dame Judi Dench: I remember him arriving, and us all being very nervous. We were all, you know, as you would be if Shakespeare walked in and you were rehearsing him, you know, Troilus and Cressida or whatever. So we were all very in awe of him. And of course, very frightened. It's alright for proper singers, but I wasn't a proper singer. So we were very nervous about the run through and all. But it was, I think, alright. I don't remember much about the end. I'd stopped shaking by then. And anyway, I had Larry to hold my hand. If you're with Larry, you don't have to worry about anything because he'll take care of it.
Martin Milnes: Judi, did Steve interact with Larry that day?
Dame Judi Dench: I don't know if Larry told you or whether Larry cares to remember. But Larry was the only person in that cast that he knew that morning he arrived. And he never went up to Larry and said, did Larry tell you that? He never went up and gave him a hug or said, Larry, how are you? And I thought that was very strange. Very strange indeed. Perhaps I shouldn't have told you that. I thought, why didn't you go up to Larry and give him a hug?
Martin Milnes: Larry, did Steve have a say over your casting in London?
Laurence Guittard: I don't know. I presume he didn't because I up to that point, I always got rejected for anything that he was doing where I knew he had control over who was gonna be in it. But he might have, you know because it was supposed to be Ian McKellen initially, and he couldn't sing it.
Martin Milnes: And when Steve did finally speak to you, did he reference a twelve year silence?
Laurence Guittard: It was like it had never happened. It was a rehearsal he was there for. He said, where is he? Where is he? And he came up and I got this huge hug.
Dame Judi Dench: Oh, that's very, very good. A bit late, but good. Very good.
Laurence Guittard: Then he said, in typical Steve fashion, you know, 'What have you been doing with your life?' And I said, 'Well, a lot of stuff. Nothing with Sondheim on it'. So he didn't reference it at all.
Martin Milnes: With regards to the show itself, how did Steve feel about this revival of night music? That's an unanswerable question. In what way?
Laurence Guittard: Well, he started out our best friend and ended up our worst enemy. I don't know what happened. He was with us at the very beginning. He was so enthusiastic. He coached everybody. He he seemed very, very pleased. But then suddenly a time came when he had nothing to do with us. And I have no idea why. It was never explained. But it was so bad that he never saw the show during the run until closing night. And we got no opening night telegram from him. We got no nothing.
Dame Judi Dench: I don't remember him being about that much and I don't know what he thought of it. Did he think it was crap?
Peter E Jones: Judi, no! Please rest assured he didn't think it was crap. What happened was we broke up. And oddly, I hadn't thought of this all these years. But from what Larry reveals about the timing of Steve's all of a sudden radio silence about the show or any support of it happens to be at the same time we were breaking up. And I'm sure that put him in a rather unpleasant disposition in a lot of ways. And again, because he's a human and not this icon that people perceive him as, they forget that he might have a personal life where something is going on. And it didn't start out that way. When Steve and I went to rehearsals of Night Music and to the opening of Night Music, my memory of that time was that Steve was enjoying the whole process. There was no sort of back talk to me that he thought the show was crap or anything of that kind. So it seems clear that for all these years, what thirty years have gone by, that both Judi and Larry had never known what really was happening at that time, which was that we were breaking up, that it was very painful and very difficult for Steve. And I don't think he could keep as entirely professional demeanor as he would have wanted to have in the situation because there was sentiment in there about the two of us having been there, having had a good time while we were there. Having to revisit any of that would have been too painful for given how I remember things being at the time. So it's just clear that there was a shroud of mystery in terms of why he was behaving the way he was and poor Larry and Judi just didn't know the personal side of what was going on.
Martin Milnes: Well, that's quite significant. So for decades, there's been a major misconception about Steve's attitude towards this Night Music. And as we said earlier, whether someone's an icon or not, you never know what's going on in people's private lives. But equally, of course, there's absolutely no way that Judi, Larry, or any of the night music company could have realized this about you and Steve.
Peter E Jones: But, Martin, what about the preexisting tension between Steve and Larry? Did that ever get resolved?
Martin Milnes: Well, initially, it seemed that Larry was back in favor. Immediately after night music, he returned to New York and, with Steve's approval, was cast as Ben in a revival of Follies. And at that point, suddenly, Steve surprised everyone. After saying nothing at all about the London Night Music, he absolutely raved about it in the press.
Laurence Guittard: The night before we opened Follies, he had a big interview that was in the New York Times in which he said that the National Theatre of Night Music was his favorite production of that show. Never told us.
Martin Milnes: Why do you think he did that?
Laurence Guittard: He must have been down on Hal because I I mean, the only person who might have suffered from hearing that would be Hal.
Martin Milnes: So you think, for some reason, Steve wanted to take a swipe at Hal Prince, and the most effective way of doing that was to praise someone else's production of a show which Hal had originated?
Laurence Guittard: He also said, because I'm about to open this band the next day, and he said that John McMartin's band was the greatest musical theater performance he ever saw from a band. So that put me in a great place to my confidence. But I knew it was Steve.
Martin Milnes: Larry, after Follies, relations between you and Steve remained cordial. But then, in later life, you began writing music. You composed brand new scores for two little known comic operas with lyrics by WS Gilbert, His Excellency, and The Mountabanks. "Or languishingly lazy, my lady drives me crazy!" You then invited Steve to hear your music set to Gilbert's lyrics. What happened next?
Laurence Guittard: He told me that I should call him at 03:00. I called and he picked up the phone personally and said, call me in ten minutes. I've got to take a piss. So, he was pissing on his territory, I I believe. That was my interpretation of that. And I so I called him in in ten minutes. And he felt that I had betrayed Gilbert, who he didn't care much for anyway, by not writing it "da da da da da da da da", because for him, Gilbert was that.
Martin Milnes: But your music to Gilbert's libretti has been praised by real musical authorities. So I'd say it's possible that Stede's bias against Gilbert unfairly influenced his negativity.
Laurence Guittard: I like to think it was in the way that perhaps Oscar Hammerstein was negative to him, but I don't think Oscar was as mean to him as Steve was to me. So he was really down on it. And then the thing I'm most proud that I've written is, an opera based on Maxwell Anderson's Winterset that he said he had listened to two minutes of it. Now, that seems suspect. And and he said something, cruel. He said it was too Gershwin esque to be a a real voice in music. So that's all I can take away from. It's not like Gershwin at all. Not at all.
Martin Milnes: But Laurence Guittard remains happy to have known Steve.
Laurence Guittard: I wouldn't have missed it. Without Night Music, nobody would know who I was, I think. He was a funny guy, Steve Sondheim.
Martin Milnes: So PJ, now that you've heard the whole story, what's your take on Steve's attitude to Larry? Clearly, Steve's behavior was perceived as hurtful. But just as you cleared up the night music mystery, what insight can you offer into everything else Larry discussed?
Peter E Jones: Well, again, this is a matter of timing. When Follies at the paper mill opened, Steve and I had patched things up. And we even went together to the paper mill playoffs. I remember seeing I think it was a dress and an actual performance. I don't remember which one, but we were there together. Is that a coincidence that all of a sudden he looked fondly upon A Little Night Music in London?
Martin Milnes: And what about Steve's press comment the night before Larry opened as Ben in Follies? Steve said that John McMartin as Ben in the original production gave the finest performance he'd ever seen. And that, of course, is not helpful for Larry to hear from Steve when he's about to open in a major revival playing the same role.
Peter E Jones: When he, was quoted as saying John McMartin's performance was the finest he'd ever seen, you know, he had said this many times over the years. The timing of it, however, is I think an example of Steve being clueless because he really could be naive. That's another thing people don't understand about Steve the icon is Steve the person I always said was 70 going on 10. He could be just such a naive youth, I wanna say. And I'll give you an example of my own situation of how he would do this. He would say things to me like, 'It's interesting how you can't act when you sing your songs'. He was not judging me. He was not criticizing me. He was saying it like a kid saying, 'Oh, it's interesting how you're ugly'. I mean, without knowing. He didn't realize what he was saying. 'You can't act when you sing', you know. And I was taking it that way but it was just matter of fact for him. He often did things like that. To say that John McMartin's performance was his favorite was in my opinion not trying to get at Larry. He just did not put two and two together. I have no doubt for a moment that Steve's reactions must have hurt Larry. Again, if the person's opinion matters to you, if they say something negative, it's going to hurt. The problem is you often think that the things they say to you are unique to you. But from what I'm hearing Larry say, I would love to assure him, some of the things I've heard I know are not unique to Larry. For one, the story about 'pissing on his territory' as a composer. I can't tell you how many times Steve asked me to call him and when I would call him, he'd say, 'Hold on a minute while I take a piss'. Put the phone down. I can hear him go to the room. He relieves himself and comes back to the phone. Other times it's, 'Let me call you back. I gotta take a piss'. Hangs up on me, then he calls back. It was a normal occurrence for me to get that response on the telephone. Now, of course, it is not a normal occurrence for Larry to have Steve behave that way. So yes, it must have seemed really audacious to do something like that. So I can't say a 100% that Steve didn't have some purpose in doing it. I can only say that it was standard for him to answer the phone and all of a sudden realize he has to pee before he can go on and say that.
Martin Milnes: And PJ, regarding Steve's attitude to Larry as a composer, this is very odd because normally, Steve hugely encouraged other writers. Now you and I have both listened to Larry's opera, Winterset, in its entirety, as have some notable musical authorities. And we can confirm that Winterset by Laurence Guittard is an exceptional piece.
Peter E Jones: The timing of Steve hearing Winterset is, again, unfortunate because he was having such a struggle writing himself. Certainly since his working on the Meisner musical, which is now known as Road Show, he was struggling then even. His well was running dry. So the timing of Larry asking Steve to listen to this was not good and there was no way that Larry could have known that. There were specific circumstances at play here that didn't get revealed. Steve was having a terrible time composing. It was a huge effort for him to get anything written at that time.
Martin Milnes: So if it took this huge effort for Steve to write, then to listen to another composer's work and to give it the focus which a two act opera like Winterset requires, would have been perhaps overwhelming.
Peter E Jones: This was something that demanded attention and listening, and I think he just didn't have it in him, which is disappointing because Larry's work is wonderful. And I think had Steve been a little fresher in his energy and his and his health, he would have heard that, and he would have been supportive of Larry.
Martin Milnes: And long may Laurence Guittard continue composing because his opera Winterset is extraordinary. So it's good to know that Steve's prickly behavior didn't discourage him.
Peter E Jones: Yeah. And when Steve was being prickly, you know who was often at the receiving end?
Patti LuPone: "I'd like to propose a toast".
Martin Milnes: Oh, Patti! Oh, we've got to ask Patti LuPone about Steve being prickly. But Patti has a very strong personality, so do you think she also found Steve intimidating?
Peter E Jones: Well, there's only one way to find out, Martin. You know, Patti lives just half an hour away from me, so let's get in the car and go see her.
Martin Milnes: Get the car keys, PJ. We're off to chat to Patty.
Patti LuPone: I remember auditioning for Bernadette's replacement in Sunday in the Park and I remember Steve coming down the aisle going, I don't want belting. And I just got so intimidated. But I didn't get the part Mary Ann Plunkett did it. When I moved up to Connecticut in 1987, it's when I really felt as though I met Steve because I met him socially, not professionally. He was quite intimidating for a young performer.
Martin Milnes: In what way intimidating?
Patti LuPone: Well, was Steve Sondheim. Let's just start there. You know, I mean, he was the genius. He's intimidating because he's also so smart. So versed, so knowledgeable. And it's incredible to listen to him talk and not be able to respond because you don't have the knowledge. You have a connection with him through old movies. I don't have that connection. So meeting the man was intimidating. Know, people think that I'm this tough individual but I'm really kind of scared and shy most of the time, especially meeting people that you have idolized. I think that's true probably everybody. You meet somebody that you idolized and you think, first of all, how did this happen? How did I deserve this to happen? And then, if you haven't got the ability to socialize, then you really don't know how to talk to another human being. I forget people's names. I'm bad at parties and stuff like that. I'm just sort of like, what am I doing here? So meeting Steve was a combination of all of those things except when we came up here and Bob Avian, God rest us all, through a dinner party where I actually sat next to Steve and Steve and I communicated just as people at a dinner party where we lived.
Martin Milnes: And what was your personal relationship like? Because you've said in the past that you thought Steve hated you.
Patti LuPone: Yeah. I just didn't think he liked me because I never knew why, but I felt as though there was sort of a hostility at times toward me and I didn't understand why. You know, lot of times that you wouldn't see that, you know, in the social situations. Sometimes it would rear up and I'm I would be like, what did I just do? He's an enigma. Am I right, Peter? It's a bit of an enigma to the man?
Peter E Jones: He's less of one than most people think but it's how it seems to play out.
Patti LuPone: With people that aren't as close to him as you perhaps or you know.
Peter E Jones: Yeah. But even as you talk I think what happens with most people and it happened to me too in the beginning was you make more of it than it really is.
Patti LuPone: Probably.
Peter E Jones: And that only
Patti LuPone: causes more difficulty. Exactly.
Peter E Jones: When you said I don't remember names and I'm not great at parties and it was describing Steve. That's why I thought the two of you should have hit it off right there. Couldn't remember names, not comfortable parties. Well, I'm finishing that.
Patti LuPone: I think we had more in common than he might have even acknowledged and and that's
Peter E Jones: Steve could separate, to take you for an example, you the professional from you the friend. And so whenever he spoke of you it was warmly. But if you worked with him, he was going to 'ffft' with you.
Patti LuPone: Yes.
Peter E Jones: Which he did with me. And I was living with him. I was his partner. And he didn't spare me when he talked to me
Patti LuPone: About said that my and what what
Peter E Jones: Because he doesn't think the thing you have to get about him finally is, as I've always said, he's 70 going on 10. There's a part of him that's this kid that is very innocent about some of his expression, his view, and he will tell you something thinking, I'm just telling you what it is. I'm not trying to cut you open or anything else. He doesn't see it that way.
Patti LuPone: Yeah. Yeah. He gave me one of the greatest notes that was harsh. And that was the thing about Steve. He's a taskmaster and you have to steel yourself to that criticism. And he said, 'This is not your cabaret act. Don't swoop up to the notes'. And I went, first of all, went, oh my god, does he think I think this is his music is his cabaret act? And I had no idea I was swooping. And the swooping was sort of a subconscious way of getting to the pitch without because I I feared hitting it dead on that I wouldn't I would be sharp or flat. But then I thought he could have said it a different way to because it sometimes he would come at you and punch you, you know you know, figuratively punch you and then give you the most valuable note in in your career. That does work with some people and other people get broken by it. And I'm just glad that I went through the Juilliard Trauma Division so I could handle anything in the real world! I guess that was that was something else. So sometimes his criticisms were hurtful in their delivery but incredibly valuable in the overall scheme of things.
Peter E Jones: It's us, the rest of us who go, oh my god, he's just assaulted me. Yeah. Know, most of the time when he would give somebody a note it was the teacher in him that
Patti LuPone: And was working the note was more important than the student getting the note. And unfortunately, sometimes you can't hear the note because you've been assaulted.
Peter E Jones: But I think for some people, maybe that made them listen. Well Maybe it made them go, okay. I better
Patti LuPone: When I did Passion for Live at Lincoln Center, we had the Wandelprobe and the camera block the same day. It was it was so fast. Ten days rehearsal, you're on stage, you gotta deal with camera, you gotta deal with cables, you gotta deal with the blocking, you gotta listen to the orchestrations, you gotta figure this whole thing out in one rehearsal. At the end of the rehearsal, I was walking stage right to stage left and I saw everybody was disappearing. And I saw Steve tracking me and he came down the aisle and he berated me. And in my head, I said anybody with less experience would turn in their Equity cards because it was a barrage. And I don't even remember at some point I just blacked out and all I heard was 'monotonous mush'. The director did not tell Steve he can't do this. Nobody pulled him off me. Everybody just disappeared. And I went into my dressing room going, 'Do you understand me on stage?' 'Yeah.' 'Do you understand me on stage?' 'Yeah.' I asked anybody that was sort of in that area, 'Do you understand me on stage?' And then the girl that was handing out the microphones, I said, 'Did you understand me?' She said, 'Well, when you get emotional, it's hard to understand you'. I went, 'Thank you! The note!'
Peter E Jones: That was the note?
Patti LuPone: That was the note! And so the next night, I overemphasized in the emotional moments. He came into my dressing room, went 'Night and day'. I wanted to say, 'Why did you do that? Why? Because you scared the shit out of me, you hurt me, and if I didn't have as much experience as I have in this business with tyrants like you, I I would have fallen apart'.
Peter E Jones: You wanted to say it or you did?
Patti LuPone: I didn't say it.
Peter E Jones: No. You should No. You should have said it. And he he'd be the first to say you should have said that to me. That's that's the irony.
Patti LuPone: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I got a picture downstairs on my piano on the back of it. It says, 'Steve Sondheim is yelling at me, Patti LuPone,' in the event that this ever gets lost. The other time is when I wrote to him after I saw the movie of Sweeney and I said 'I missed your, I missed your score.' He wrote me back. It's in my scrapbook. The nastiest letter. 'Who asked for your opinion?' And then cut to we went and saw a Road Show down at The Public. And I was doing Gypsy at the time. We came and sat in my dressing room. He said, 'Well, you didn't go see Road Show'. I said, 'Yes, I did'. He said, 'Well, you didn't say anything'. Said, 'I was too scared to! I was too scared to say anything to you about what I thought of Road Show.' That's how I got that out.
Martin Milnes: Did he have a reaction to that?
Patti LuPone: He laughed. And then I lied. 'Oh, it was great!' I think Road Show can be great. I didn't see what was it called? Bump?
Martin Milnes: Bounce. Bounce.
Peter E Jones: I like Bump better. It was a bump!
Patti LuPone: I was close.
Martin Milnes: A short while later, Patti's husband Matt dropped in to say hi.
Patti LuPone: Matt, talk talk! We're talking about Steve. How was your relationship with Steve?
Matt Johnston: Great.
Patti LuPone: But can I just tell you one thing now that Steve has passed that has people laughing their ass off? We were rehearsing Sweeney in our basement with George Hearn, Lonny Price, me. And then we'd go out to dinner, and Matt one day just went, 'I like the guy. I just can't stand his music.'
Matt Johnston: It's true.
Patti LuPone: And then when I took Matt to see a preview of Into the Woods, Matt turned to me and went, if I hear 'doo doo doo doo doo' one more time.
Matt Johnston: Oh, I get it. I get it.
Patti LuPone: But Matt, why do you think that Steve liked you so much? Because he really adored you. Is it the pot? You guys would get stoned in the loft?
Matt Johnston: Well, I found him to be a lot of fun till the music began.
Patti LuPone: Isn't that the craziest thing? Everybody at the table looked at him in shock and horror.
Matt Johnston: You know, that's what he does and he gets away with it. You were just performed at Carnegie Hall and my parents were with me. Got into a car and dropped Steve off and then we headed on up to Connecticut and I asked Mom and Dad, I go, well, they said, 'Who was that?' And I go, 'That's Steve Sondheim, just you know, friend.' And they go, 'What's he doing?' 'He's a musician'. 'What's he done?' 'Have you heard that song, 'Send in the Clowns?' Oh, I hate that!
Martin Milnes: Well, PJ, this has been quite the investigation, but hopefully, it's provided some answers about Steve's behavior and people's perceptions. Like all of us, Steve was human, and no human is perfect. However, when you're an icon, every move is scrutinized and every encounter is analyzed, but I don't think Steve would want to be remembered as prickly and definitely not as intimidating.
Peter E Jones: You know, Steve did not wanna be remembered as being intimidating because he wanted to be loved just like all of us do. He wanted to be loved and accepted. He wanted that on his own terms in a way, which, again, we all do. We wanna be accepted for who we are. So I don't think he's unusual for wanting any of those things. It does seem as though people treat him as though he was unusual for wanting that, but I don't think he was. Steve's prickliness can also be attributed to something that, again, I don't think people think of is that Steve was very sensitive and he could be easily hurt. And I don't mean that in the sense that he maybe was oversensitive. There was a very tender soul in there that could be so easily hurt. And given that, there's some justification for how prickly he could be. He may be operating from a great hurt.
Martin Milnes: Which again, perhaps goes back to Steve's childhood and the abusive behavior of his mother, Foxy.
Peter E Jones: He once told me he had gone to Tiffany's or some nice jewelry store and bought his mother a black onyx heart. So it was like, I think, a stone that was carved into a heart and it was polished. And he gave it to her for Mother's Day. And, Foxy's response was, 'Oh, Stevie, giving me a heart as black as his own'. And that hurt him deeply. I'm almost in tears thinking about that because I know how that hurt him. And it makes me think of how I hurt him. And that's something I will have to always live with, I fear. Didn't plan on going there, Martin.
Martin Milnes: But remember all the joy you brought him. He loved you, and you stayed in his life forever. That would never have happened if there hadn't been a great deal of love, a great deal of joy, and a great deal of happiness. Oh, okay. Promise me you'll remember the joy, my darling.
Peter E Jones: Yep. Yeah. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you.
Dame Judi Dench: In Winterset, an opera with music and libretto by Laurence Guittard, the roles of Miriamne and Mio were sung by Rebecca Pitcher and Chad Johnson. Musical direction was by Jack Lee, and piano accompaniment by Jean Browne.
Mehran James McCullough: In this episode, the credits for Winterset, an opera with music and libretto by Laurence Guittard were read by Dame Judi Dench. Quotes from The Guardian and The Times were read by Yeukayi Ushe, Melissa Redman, and Johnny-James Kajoba. The English translation for Celsa de Azanza was provided by Sarah Simmons. The Prince Party Matron was played by Ann Wakefield, who, in 1954, starred in the original Broadway cast of 'The Boy Friend' as Madcap Maisie. Adam Guettel's callers were Jonathan Christopher, Yeukayi Ushe, Rebecca Ridout, and James Gower-Smith. Dramatic reenactments were written by Martin Milnes and produced by Peter E Jones. The music of Stephen Sondheim was played by Colm Molloy. Our pianist at the Prince Party and Rainbow Room was Steve Ross, who played Cole Porter's 'Well Did You Evah?' and 'Isn't It Romantic?' by Rodgers and Hart. Sondheim instrumental tracks were provided by Broadway Studio Orchestra. 'Everybody Wants to Do a Musical' by Charles Strouse and Richard Maltby Jr was sung by Christine Baranski. 'Celebration' by Harvey Schmidt and Tom Jones was sung by Keith Charles. From 'The Mountebanks' by WS Gilbert and Laurence Guittard, Martin Milnes sang 'Teresa! Oh little word so glibly spoken', produced by Chris Traves with Musical Direction by Gareth Valentine. And I am Mehran James McCullough. Loving You: The Untold Sondheim is produced by Martin Milnes and Peter E. Jones. The Executive Producer is Jason Caffrey of Creative Kin Limited. Mix and mastering is by Chris Traves. Stephen Sondheim's music and lyrics are featured courtesy of The Stephen Sondheim Trust. The podcast's original score is composed by Peter E. Jones. The series is written, devised, and directed by Martin Milnes.