WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.360 Music. 00:00:06.301 --> 00:00:13.116 I'm Pastor Luke, I'm Pastor Cameron, and this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have 00:00:13.242 --> 00:00:15.438 uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:17.553 --> 00:00:23.413 This week, we're continuing on what's been sort of a, what is this, part three, sort of? 00:00:23.648 --> 00:00:32.293 Yeah, three-ish, yep. Three-ish episodes where we've kind of been digging into sacraments, communion, baptism, 00:00:32.293 --> 00:00:37.413 kind of our thoughts and theology as we're kind of talking through and wrestling through those. 00:00:37.413 --> 00:00:39.213 All that Catholic stuff. 00:00:39.312 --> 00:00:44.133 All that Catholic stuff. We've been accused of being Catholic as we're doing these podcasts, 00:00:45.074 --> 00:00:51.533 which is okay on some level. On some level, we... You know, like, there is a point at which, 00:00:51.533 --> 00:00:56.533 like, we do confess to be Catholic, and I say that tongue-in-cheek because I mean, 00:00:57.038 --> 00:01:00.270 the Catholic and the... What is it? The little C Catholic? 00:01:00.315 --> 00:01:02.093 Little C Catholic. Big C Catholic. Universal. 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:10.853 Yeah, so if you, I don't know, if you ever have heard or listened to, or heard any of 00:01:10.982 --> 00:01:17.173 the creeds, right, you know, the creeds are these ancient belief statements of, I believe 00:01:17.173 --> 00:01:19.742 in God the Father, Son Almighty, or, you know, God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven. 00:01:20.705 --> 00:01:22.001 And Earth, and it goes through and lists all these things. 00:01:22.533 --> 00:01:28.533 There's a modern worship song that's like, I believe in God the Father, right? 00:01:28.807 --> 00:01:32.093 Like, yes, there's that song. I forgot about that song. I forgot about that song. 00:01:32.813 --> 00:01:37.773 That's a really good song. It is a really good song because it's just a creed. 00:01:38.142 --> 00:01:44.493 But at some point in most creeds, there's this line, which makes a lot of people bristle 00:01:44.493 --> 00:01:51.453 and get uncomfortable, is the, like, I believe in the Holy Catholic Church. 00:01:51.453 --> 00:01:55.453 And sometimes we might think, well, that must mean Roman Catholic Church. 00:01:55.453 --> 00:01:57.290 The Pope Catholic. The Pope. 00:01:57.453 --> 00:02:02.653 Those creeds were written before the Roman Catholic Church was even a thing 00:02:02.862 --> 00:02:08.253 even really a thing yeah you know it's like that's what actually like that's a 00:02:08.253 --> 00:02:12.413 really funny thing to think about because there wasn't a Pope. 00:02:11.514 --> 00:02:16.744 At the making of the creeds. Otherwise, the Pope would have just probably done it himself. Correct. 00:02:17.444 --> 00:02:25.684 But anyways, so those confessions are a confession that we all belong to the body of Christ and that, 00:02:26.349 --> 00:02:32.804 among all the true believers in Christ, there constitutes a universal or whole church. It's 00:02:32.804 --> 00:02:39.924 the confession that we hear at Conduit Ministries and any church here in the county, the state, 00:02:39.924 --> 00:02:45.124 the city, the country, who confesses Christ preaching the gospel belongs to the same, 00:02:45.764 --> 00:02:51.604 in one church, and we're all on mission for God, across history and across nationalities. 00:02:51.604 --> 00:02:52.244 Yes. 00:02:52.393 --> 00:02:56.687 So in some sense, we're Catholic. We confess and believe in the Catholic Church. 00:02:56.768 --> 00:02:59.721 Guilty as charged. But little see Catholic. We're not Roman Catholics. 00:03:00.468 --> 00:03:04.339 I am not Roman Catholic, no. So... But although there would be worse things to be accused of. 00:03:05.239 --> 00:03:11.284 Sure, like being a heretic. Yes. Or a prosperity preacher. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:11.284 --> 00:03:16.420 I've got more problems with prosperity preaching than I do with Catholicism, so. 00:03:17.095 --> 00:03:28.951 Yeah, so this week we're digging into baptism. We kind of, last week we kind of talked about all the different things coming in and around 00:03:29.084 --> 00:03:32.524 communion and like the significances there. 00:03:32.524 --> 00:03:37.458 We even did a bit of a theological like overview of sorts. 00:03:38.724 --> 00:03:45.272 Like I won't say that was comprehensive by any means. No, I think the last podcast that we did, 00:03:45.380 --> 00:03:47.644 probably more than anything else, 00:03:48.702 --> 00:03:54.604 revealed us just having a conversation about what we actually believe or don't believe 00:03:54.604 --> 00:03:56.894 or maybe don't know that we believe. 00:03:57.084 --> 00:04:02.989 Like, we're just kind of wrestling with the issue more than making proclamations about this is actually it. 00:04:03.097 --> 00:04:09.804 Right. Yeah, because I think the hardest part is like, you know, there's theology, 00:04:09.804 --> 00:04:15.084 and then there's the application of the theology into practical everyday life, 00:04:16.330 --> 00:04:20.924 or not everyday life, but everyday church life, right, as we're taking communion. 00:04:20.924 --> 00:04:30.024 Cameron is, he is, every time we film one of these podcasts, he has a different energy drink. 00:04:30.024 --> 00:04:34.044 I'm trying new ones every week, waiting to get a sponsorship. 00:04:34.044 --> 00:04:38.926 So this week is ghost sour green apple warhead flavor. 00:04:39.232 --> 00:04:39.619 Yeah. 00:04:41.221 --> 00:04:47.311 It'll make you it'll wake you up Every time he takes a sip of that he looks like he just had like the most, 00:04:48.031 --> 00:04:50.031 sour thing ever, um, 00:04:50.998 --> 00:04:59.235 So, yeah, i'll stop that might be a good easter egg Somebody at some point categorize all the different energy drinks. Cameron's drinking. There you go. So. 00:05:00.522 --> 00:05:06.752 Um But yeah, I think um 00:05:07.175 --> 00:05:14.831 You know, I'm trying to think of where to start, and maybe we'll just return to where 00:05:14.831 --> 00:05:22.591 I think we maybe—I mean, this is my big drum when it comes to, like, communion and 00:05:22.591 --> 00:05:30.511 baptism, is that I think sometimes, because we are afraid of being Catholic, or afraid 00:05:30.511 --> 00:05:40.951 of communicating the idea that somehow communion or baptism will save you or constitutes saving you, right? 00:05:40.951 --> 00:05:48.271 Sometimes we are so afraid of that, that we go to a place where we detach it from the 00:05:48.271 --> 00:05:55.671 gospel too much and unnecessarily, or we get to a place of really kind of guarding against 00:05:55.671 --> 00:06:02.471 in such a way that we end up bringing meaning to baptism and communion that are not... 00:06:02.602 --> 00:06:03.191 It's not there. 00:06:03.349 --> 00:06:09.246 It's not there, or it's not the right meaning. The emphasis kind of misses it a little bit. 00:06:09.543 --> 00:06:16.391 And we've talked about that, but, you know, for communion, like, the meaning that I see 00:06:16.391 --> 00:06:28.951 sometimes put into communion is this kind of almost this rehearsal of guilt or rehearsal of of kind of like. 00:06:30.248 --> 00:06:38.168 Don't know a weird sort of penance that can sometimes come into the way that communion is presented in some contexts, right 00:06:38.485 --> 00:06:45.408 Yeah, and I've sometimes there's been times where I think I've addressed that even in the like institution of the elements. 00:06:47.865 --> 00:06:52.248 Two things that I see is like that kind of somber, 00:06:54.590 --> 00:06:59.361 Sat cloth and ashes type of approach to the communion table. 00:07:01.588 --> 00:07:07.274 And I'm not saying that that's wrong, I'm not saying that's wrong, 00:07:07.368 --> 00:07:16.988 but I'm just saying that that tends to take over as the predominant emotional culture surrounding communion. 00:07:18.768 --> 00:07:24.608 Baptism, the opposite, right? It tends to be the celebration, communion, and the penance, 00:07:24.608 --> 00:07:29.648 we wouldn't use that word. But, and then the other thing with communion is like, 00:07:30.662 --> 00:07:35.568 when someone will come up and grab like the teeniest, tiniest little piece of the bread, 00:07:36.342 --> 00:07:44.128 like, as if to almost like make themselves small. It's an interesting dynamic. I don't know if it's 00:07:44.128 --> 00:07:48.928 if there's anything to it, psychologically speaking or anything like that. But I do 00:07:48.928 --> 00:07:56.751 You wonder if like in the coming forward of during communion, if there's not a... 00:07:57.788 --> 00:08:07.598 If there is not room for a emotive experience that is other than being sorrowful or somber 00:08:07.688 --> 00:08:13.504 or woe, like can we come in celebration of the gift received? 00:08:14.251 --> 00:08:21.318 Right, right. Yeah. of us are saying that there's no room for self-examination before coming to the table 00:08:21.561 --> 00:08:23.708 repentance and penance. 00:08:24.316 --> 00:08:33.390 But I think what does happen when that becomes the predominant meaning is it becomes a place of like. 00:08:36.018 --> 00:08:42.668 Communion becomes less emphasized on Christ's forgiveness and sacrifice for us, and it becomes 00:08:42.668 --> 00:08:50.588 more emphasized on my unworthiness. Or like, you know, well, don't take the communion elements. 00:08:51.421 --> 00:08:56.668 If, you know, if you've got unrepentant sin, or don't take it in an unworthy manner, 00:08:57.237 --> 00:09:02.647 there, so as to bring judgment down upon you. 00:09:03.348 --> 00:09:11.188 All of that has an extreme emphasis on you as the partaker, rather than an emphasis on 00:09:11.188 --> 00:09:15.308 Christ, the giver of himself through communion. 00:09:15.827 --> 00:09:26.968 And I think that distorts it over the long haul, if it's... And I think that distortion happens because we are so afraid of people thinking that communion 00:09:26.968 --> 00:09:33.498 saves you, that we might detach it from the gospel more than we should. 00:09:33.848 --> 00:09:42.688 At least that's my kind of thought. Yeah, I can see that. Similarly with baptism, right? 00:09:42.688 --> 00:09:54.968 Baptism is one that kind of, like, baptism is one I will get kind of like, I get kind of worked up about. 00:09:55.247 --> 00:10:01.008 Because we begin to think of baptism, the way I've heard many people talk about it to 00:10:01.008 --> 00:10:07.568 me, I'll talk to somebody and they're just like, I'm a, you know, confessing Christian, 00:10:07.568 --> 00:10:10.497 go to church all the time, love Jesus, like, He's my Savior. 00:10:11.019 --> 00:10:12.316 They're like, oh, I haven't got baptized. 00:10:12.928 --> 00:10:19.391 Okay, why haven't you been baptized? Well, I'm just not, like, that's for the real disciples. 00:10:20.208 --> 00:10:23.608 Or that's for the real Christians, or someone who's really ready to go 00:10:23.608 --> 00:10:25.792 to the next level of Jesus. And I was like. 00:10:27.097 --> 00:10:38.871 I don't think that's, uh, I don't think that's true. Like, like, like, um, or I have also encountered people who, you 00:10:38.871 --> 00:10:42.887 know, like not everybody likes their baptism somewhat public, right? 00:10:43.511 --> 00:10:46.791 When you're baptized, a whole bunch of people are watching you get dunked in water. 00:10:47.262 --> 00:10:52.358 Um, like that's in almost every other circumstance, that's an embarrassing thing to have happen. 00:10:52.925 --> 00:11:01.711 And so, some people, I think, maybe avoid baptism because of its public nature, and 00:11:01.711 --> 00:11:07.751 they say, well, baptism doesn't save me, so it's not gonna hurt my salvation or hurt my 00:11:07.751 --> 00:11:09.786 relationship with Jesus if I don't do it. 00:11:10.875 --> 00:11:13.999 Now, I'm curious. I know what my answer is to that question. 00:11:14.449 --> 00:11:17.391 I'm curious what your answer is to that question, Cameron. 00:11:17.391 --> 00:11:20.711 If someone were to come up to you and say, Cam, I'm not getting baptized. 00:11:20.711 --> 00:11:26.551 No, I'm like no the Bible says, you know, I'm supposed to or whatever but like you say it's not gonna save me 00:11:26.551 --> 00:11:28.133 It's not part of my salvation, 00:11:28.574 --> 00:11:33.091 Like I'm not gonna go to hell if I don't get baptized like why in the world should I do it? 00:11:33.183 --> 00:11:34.885 Like what would your response be? 00:11:38.881 --> 00:11:47.671 Well, I would say that In a way that's correct That baptism the water of baptism does not save 00:11:47.671 --> 00:11:52.745 Mm-hmm any more than the lack of the water of baptism condemns, right, you know, 00:11:53.871 --> 00:12:00.955 but then I would also say that the the Bible doesn't New Testament really doesn't have a category for, 00:12:01.671 --> 00:12:07.691 a Unbaptized willfully unbaptized Christian. Yeah that it is, 00:12:08.911 --> 00:12:19.571 in most creedal baptismal Like denominations or churches and we'll talk a little bit about what a creedal baptism church is, 00:12:20.544 --> 00:12:25.511 It is considered to be the first act of obedience upon, 00:12:27.314 --> 00:12:29.311 Confession and repentance of sin. Yep, 00:12:31.271 --> 00:12:37.405 And it would be I think I think you would have to... 00:12:40.160 --> 00:12:49.850 I would have significant questions for someone who was so staunch on the opinion of no baptism. 00:12:52.502 --> 00:12:55.878 But yeah, I'm a Christian and I follow Jesus and I repented of my sins. 00:12:56.328 --> 00:13:00.410 I would have some really serious questions about how they processed their own 00:13:00.410 --> 00:13:11.821 own sin and their responsiveness to Jesus and the place of God's word in their walk. 00:13:12.170 --> 00:13:20.643 Because they're aware that baptism is a thing that is asked, commanded of them, and they are choosing not to. 00:13:21.552 --> 00:13:28.358 Right. I think it would be a significant conversation. It would need to be a significant conversation. 00:13:28.916 --> 00:13:33.050 Yeah, that's almost word-for-word the language I would use around it too. There's almost, 00:13:33.050 --> 00:13:39.050 there is no category in the New Testament for someone who has every opportunity to be baptized, 00:13:39.197 --> 00:13:46.890 but chooses not to. And I think the fact that I've run into people in that category, 00:13:46.890 --> 00:13:52.241 whether it's because they believe, well, it's for this next-level Christian, or, well, it's 00:13:52.570 --> 00:13:57.651 not necessary for my salvation, and I just kind of don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it. 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:04.010 I've run into both of those people. And I think that's a scary category for me, 00:14:04.010 --> 00:14:09.450 because I'm just like, well, that it's not in keeping with church historic or biblical teaching. 00:14:11.974 --> 00:14:15.989 It's a clear thing that we're told to do, baptize people. 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:24.570 Some of Jesus's last words to his disciples in Matthew 28. Yep. Go make disciples baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 00:14:24.685 --> 00:14:28.214 Yep, teaching them all that I've commanded you. Yes. And yeah. 00:14:28.890 --> 00:14:32.436 And so that, for me, like becomes like... 00:14:33.598 --> 00:14:40.248 Like in the biblical testament, anytime, particularly in Acts, people confess Christ 00:14:40.248 --> 00:14:46.318 and then get baptized. So often, it's just right next to each other. It's just like, 00:14:47.335 --> 00:14:50.684 they're like, do you say yes to Jesus? Okay, there's a body of water, let's dunk him. 00:14:50.999 --> 00:14:51.314 Right? 00:14:52.008 --> 00:14:57.183 Well, not to pull the Trump card, but like, hey, baptism was good enough for Jesus. 00:14:57.310 --> 00:14:58.888 Right? He got baptized. 00:14:58.888 --> 00:15:07.028 Jesus was baptized. So, I mean, come on now. I mean, and we can have some theological conversations 00:15:07.028 --> 00:15:10.138 about why would Jesus need to be baptized? 00:15:10.628 --> 00:15:17.228 Well, yeah, that, yes. You know, what is the theological point of Jesus baptism? 00:15:17.228 --> 00:15:23.857 Right, baptism of Paul or baptism of John the Baptist and baptism of the church, 00:15:24.328 --> 00:15:26.128 are those two different baptisms. 00:15:27.428 --> 00:15:35.428 Right, yeah, because I was gonna, of the questions that I was gonna kind of rhetorically ask is where do we find the 00:15:35.428 --> 00:15:40.124 first example of baptism? I'm talking about New Testament. 00:15:40.304 --> 00:15:41.908 Yeah, well, that would be... You know, New Testament era. 00:15:43.131 --> 00:15:45.988 I think John the Baptist. John, it would be John the Baptist, right? 00:15:45.988 --> 00:15:49.577 Right, he was out in the wilderness baptizing people and baptizing Christ significantly. 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:58.828 Yes. And his baptism took on a particular... were, like there was a particular language to his baptism. 00:16:01.388 --> 00:16:08.220 A way in which, you know, I don't think it's, John's clothes were made of camel hair, 00:16:08.368 --> 00:16:11.722 this is in Matthew's gospel, it's in all four gospels. 00:16:12.128 --> 00:16:18.744 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan, 00:16:18.868 --> 00:16:22.579 confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 00:16:23.988 --> 00:16:33.708 So John came and did a baptism on the heels of a person's confession of sins. 00:16:33.708 --> 00:16:41.188 Yes, yeah, it was part of a symbolic turning towards God and repentance. 00:16:41.188 --> 00:16:43.104 A repentance and turning towards God. 00:16:44.868 --> 00:16:52.148 But it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't necessarily in responsiveness to faith in Jesus Christ. 00:16:52.917 --> 00:16:59.110 Right. Because Jesus was still a carpenter. He was, he was not, he had not died on the cross yet. 00:16:59.228 --> 00:17:03.348 He had not been risen, he had not been resurrected from the grave yet. 00:17:03.467 --> 00:17:05.997 He was arguably not in ministry yet. 00:17:06.771 --> 00:17:16.854 Right. You know, and so there was a, there was a precursor baptism to what we. 00:17:17.628 --> 00:17:19.185 Partaken now. Partaken now. 00:17:20.308 --> 00:17:25.019 That was maybe theologically tied, but not theologically the same. 00:17:27.152 --> 00:17:37.642 And then came Jesus' baptism, and then Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, 00:17:39.269 --> 00:17:45.882 but not the same baptism, right? Because if John originally baptized for the confession or in the 00:17:45.882 --> 00:17:53.242 midst of the confession of sins, Jesus wasn't getting baptized as a response to confession of 00:17:53.242 --> 00:17:59.263 of sin, because we believe that Jesus is sinless. 00:18:00.242 --> 00:18:08.869 And so then early church, New Testament baptism came as a responsiveness to the work of Christ in their lives. 00:18:09.508 --> 00:18:11.911 I repent of my sins. 00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:16.872 I turn to Jesus by faith. My sins are in the grave. 00:18:17.282 --> 00:18:22.534 I'm being resurrected to new life by unity and faith with him. 00:18:22.606 --> 00:18:26.252 One of the, I think the classic passage, at least that we use here at Conduit, 00:18:27.630 --> 00:18:29.826 to talk about baptism is Romans chapter six. 00:18:31.602 --> 00:18:39.450 And if we are united like this with Christ and his death in the waters of baptism, we are united like, 00:18:39.722 --> 00:18:41.754 with Christ like this and his resurrection. 00:18:43.924 --> 00:18:55.447 So, the Bible has a lot to say about baptism, and maybe the theological stuff can get a little... 00:18:56.356 --> 00:19:02.934 I don't want to say it gets complex along the way, but the actual practice then as it, 00:19:02.934 --> 00:19:07.494 I think, plays out in the early church, I think maybe gets a little bit more complicated. 00:19:07.494 --> 00:19:10.525 And that's where I have questions. I've got a lot of questions about that. 00:19:11.470 --> 00:19:19.294 Yeah, well, like, so even John, John the Baptist, like, makes a distinction between what he's 00:19:19.294 --> 00:19:20.968 doing and what Christ will do. 00:19:21.490 --> 00:19:27.174 Right. So I've been in Mark recently, and in Mark chapter one, verse eight, John the Baptist 00:19:27.174 --> 00:19:33.374 says, I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, right? 00:19:33.374 --> 00:19:36.874 Talking about the coming of the one after me comes one more powerful than I the straps 00:19:36.874 --> 00:19:40.953 of whose sandals I'm not worthy to stoop down and untie.", 00:19:41.794 --> 00:19:49.314 And so John right there is making the distinction of, like, I baptize you with water, but there's 00:19:49.314 --> 00:19:55.554 going to be someone who's coming after me who's going to baptize you with the Holy Spirit. 00:19:55.554 --> 00:20:03.504 And you want to talk about places where the theology of baptism can get kind of complex 00:20:03.612 --> 00:20:10.954 is because the New Testament also talks about baptism of the spirit, and sometimes that's. 00:20:12.074 --> 00:20:19.514 Very closely associated with water baptism, and sometimes it's talked about almost independently 00:20:19.514 --> 00:20:25.594 or separate from a physical water baptism. And so it can sometimes be a little bit confusing, 00:20:25.594 --> 00:20:30.394 and where that theologically sits for a lot of people can be a place of contention. 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:32.203 Right, right. 00:20:34.003 --> 00:20:52.333 Agreed, agreed. I think many of my questions are centered around like, I think that there's not a whole 00:20:52.333 --> 00:20:59.129 lot of ambiguity in the scripture about the purpose of baptism. 00:20:59.973 --> 00:21:12.093 Like the what's happening in baptism or what it's like, the distinctive theological qualities 00:21:12.093 --> 00:21:13.523 that are at play, right? 00:21:13.733 --> 00:21:27.486 We confess and repent of our sins. We proclaim the necessity of faith in Jesus for our salvation. 00:21:28.173 --> 00:21:36.533 Were baptized with water, symbolizing many things, symbolizing the washing away of sin, 00:21:36.813 --> 00:21:41.413 symbolizing the, at least if you're in full immersion baptism, which. 00:21:43.893 --> 00:21:48.593 If you're doing full immersion baptism, symbolizing going into the grave, 00:21:49.613 --> 00:21:51.927 the death of our sin, the death of our old self, 00:21:52.373 --> 00:22:00.613 coming up out of the water, resurrection to new life, And that becomes the public expression. 00:22:04.033 --> 00:22:11.893 Of an inward commitment or, I guess you could say soul trajectory, 00:22:11.893 --> 00:22:19.233 similar to the way that our wedding rings are outward expressions of inward commitments 00:22:19.233 --> 00:22:22.353 that we have made to our spouses, to our wives. 00:22:22.353 --> 00:22:33.346 So that kind of, that's pretty unambiguous and there's really not a whole lot of debate in Protestant. 00:22:36.155 --> 00:22:44.165 Theology across the board that that's essentially what baptism is. My question then comes is like, 00:22:44.165 --> 00:22:54.405 okay, where in the life cycle of someone who has decided to follow Jesus does baptism happen? 00:22:54.405 --> 00:23:06.525 Yeah. And maybe what is the church's place in the practice of baptism in the life of the believer? 00:23:06.525 --> 00:23:18.485 Right. How much do we gatekeep baptism? And probably one of the most significant questions 00:23:18.485 --> 00:23:23.485 that I have is, is baptism something, 00:23:24.767 --> 00:23:27.504 that is done in the moments of, 00:23:29.737 --> 00:23:36.225 closest related moments to justification? So the moments where I've confessed faith in Jesus 00:23:36.225 --> 00:23:44.305 and I'm in like step one in my relationship with Jesus or does it happen in when I've reached a certain point, 00:23:44.945 --> 00:23:47.201 of sanctification in Jesus? Right. 00:23:50.046 --> 00:23:53.465 And the quote, you might be listening and be like, well, what the heck's the difference there 00:23:53.465 --> 00:23:56.105 and what does it matter? Yeah, what's justification and sanctification? 00:23:56.105 --> 00:23:59.408 Right, so justification is a legal term, right? 00:23:59.705 --> 00:24:02.964 I've been justified, I have been declared not guilty. 00:24:03.864 --> 00:24:02.964 Right. 00:24:04.005 --> 00:24:10.785 Right, so in the courts of heaven, so to speak, by the blood of Jesus Christ, through the sacrifice of Jesus 00:24:10.785 --> 00:24:17.232 and by my faith in him, I have been declared not guilty of my sin, I'm covered by the blood, 00:24:18.905 --> 00:24:23.732 that my guilt has been transferred to Jesus, His righteousness has been transferred to me. 00:24:25.745 --> 00:24:31.870 So I've been justified in my sin. It's that initial moment of like, I'm forgiven. 00:24:33.193 --> 00:24:43.609 Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit to produce holiness of heart and life. 00:24:44.338 --> 00:24:53.803 Holiness, like produce fruit in my life, right? Where it has become demonstrable that the work of God, 00:24:54.643 --> 00:25:02.483 or the spirit of God is moving in my life and that I am being not just cleansed of the penalty of sin. 00:25:04.972 --> 00:25:10.859 Just death through justification, but I'm now being released from the power of sin in my life. 00:25:11.063 --> 00:25:13.650 No longer am I a slave to sin. 00:25:13.794 --> 00:25:16.729 I now become a slave to righteousness, as Paul says in Romans chapter six. 00:25:18.143 --> 00:25:23.687 The way in which you, who you are and how you interact with the world is changing. Yes. 00:25:24.223 --> 00:25:29.823 If, as you were talking, I thought of, maybe this is a bad analogy, maybe it's not, 00:25:29.935 --> 00:25:36.822 like justification is the flipping of the light switch, and sanctification is the rolling up of 00:25:37.103 --> 00:25:45.263 the fader on the light switch. Like, it's like, you know, justification is in some sense a status, 00:25:45.263 --> 00:25:52.623 it's a qualification that we come into as we believe and trust in Christ for the forgiveness 00:25:52.623 --> 00:26:01.263 our sins. It's an identity. It's an identity. And then sanctification is a scale. It's measured in degrees. Correct. 00:26:05.053 --> 00:26:08.623 We could probably talk a lot about just sanctification and stuff. 00:26:09.833 --> 00:26:17.343 So what is... I have an opinion on whether baptism is primarily justifying, primarily 00:26:17.343 --> 00:26:24.783 sanctifying event. I'm interested to hear what you think because I have some like comments on 00:26:25.074 --> 00:26:28.423 on its practicality for the life in church, so. 00:26:28.729 --> 00:26:31.618 I've pretty much always. 00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:38.550 Understood it as being tied to justification and not sanctification. I don't see. 00:26:40.567 --> 00:26:47.190 As I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I can't really think of any scriptures that come to my 00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:54.457 mind that make me think it's an act of sanctification, particularly because of just its, 00:26:54.710 --> 00:27:01.695 It's like, as I think of how it is portrayed in the records of it, is it's like this, like, 00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:03.891 turn to Christ, get baptized. 00:27:04.310 --> 00:27:13.542 Like it's always tied to the teaching of Christ. 00:27:14.110 --> 00:27:24.150 Or to the accepting of Christ, at least in Acts, right? And I even think of, which, like, this will be something that I'm guessing we will talk 00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:30.088 about, and we can talk about it now or a little bit later, but it's, at least in one passage, 00:27:30.259 --> 00:27:37.910 it's compared to circumcision and as a marker of the new covenant, right? And so like, 00:27:38.622 --> 00:27:43.990 when do we become partakers of the covenant, right? Justification, right? There's not a... 00:27:45.270 --> 00:27:50.870 The problem with sanctification, if we were to say sanctification is... 00:27:50.870 --> 00:27:56.951 Is, baptism is a marker of sanctification, which is what I think people are saying when, 00:27:57.610 --> 00:28:01.191 they say, well, I'm not ready to be baptized yet, even though I'm a follower of Christ, 00:28:01.390 --> 00:28:07.390 because I'm not ready to be that committed to Jesus, or I'm not that good of enough Christian. 00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:12.870 Question becomes, okay, well, if sanctification's a scale, where on that scale does sit baptism? 00:28:13.128 --> 00:28:13.452 Bingo. 00:28:14.082 --> 00:28:24.590 Right? whoops, how many sins do we have to have repented of and released from our lives in order to qualify? 00:28:24.590 --> 00:28:26.766 And who gets to be the judge of that? 00:28:26.870 --> 00:28:30.043 Becomes a really, that becomes really tricky. 00:28:30.290 --> 00:28:30.556 Yeah. 00:28:31.130 --> 00:28:37.182 So I agree, I agree. And I think that it, 00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:48.345 I believe that it calls into question practice of pre-baptismal catechesis. 00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:54.790 Mm-hmm Which has been a practice or was it's a very common very common practice. Yeah, 00:28:55.710 --> 00:28:59.510 and At least in the ancient church. 00:29:00.849 --> 00:29:11.949 Was there was like the church became a significant gatekeeper of Baptism, 00:29:12.651 --> 00:29:19.190 Up until a baptismal like they they I mean they would literally refer to them as baptismal candidates, 00:29:19.826 --> 00:29:23.150 Hmm as if like well you're prepping, 00:29:24.183 --> 00:29:36.129 for the ordinance or sacrament of baptism and We will determine When you are able to receive that yeah, right? 00:29:36.993 --> 00:29:45.383 It. And in some ways that has, it's, I think it's been sewn into the DNA of the, of the church, 00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:53.550 even now, where people as a pastor who say, you know, come to me and say, I want to be, 00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:57.635 I want to be baptized. Is there a class I have to go through? 00:29:59.049 --> 00:30:04.190 Yeah. Because usually like what, like a three, four week, at least a month long class you have 00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:09.518 to attend and then like a one-on-one consultation meeting with the pastor before. Before, right. 00:30:09.923 --> 00:30:14.830 They would give you the okay. And you might go through all of that and the pastor might say, 00:30:15.001 --> 00:30:16.378 I'm not going to baptize you yet. 00:30:16.783 --> 00:30:24.723 Yeah. And I think what they're looking for in that moment is the right, I don't know, 00:30:24.921 --> 00:30:38.590 the right theological affirmation, the right theological declaration, the proclamation that, 00:30:38.722 --> 00:30:44.030 you know, like, yeah, I'm done sinning. Sinning is no longer a part of what I do. 00:30:44.501 --> 00:30:52.850 I'm like, oh, okay, I guess you're really serious about this. we'll baptize you. 00:30:52.135 --> 00:30:59.665 Well, so I think I agree with you, but I want to be the devil's advocate for the other side 00:30:59.665 --> 00:31:06.385 of the argument a little bit. So I've encountered and I've run into people, and sometimes this is 00:31:06.385 --> 00:31:12.785 kind of the, this is the type of thing that is said oftentimes, I think, at funerals. 00:31:13.745 --> 00:31:21.585 Or around someone's passing, particularly when they maybe weren't living a life that was marked 00:31:21.585 --> 00:31:31.745 by Christ, and you have some uncertainty as to exactly what their eternal destination and 00:31:31.745 --> 00:31:37.585 life was Christ, were they saved, were they not, becomes that question. And someone might say, 00:31:37.585 --> 00:31:47.265 well, they were baptized. I was at their baptism back when they were 15. And once saved, always 00:31:47.265 --> 00:31:54.785 saved, right? Now, we've said in this episode, baptism does not save you, right? 00:31:56.384 --> 00:32:02.945 Just because you were baptized does not mean that you have, like, that's the, 00:32:04.145 --> 00:32:07.655 proof marker, means you're saved, means you're justified, all of that. 00:32:10.833 --> 00:32:15.172 That seems to be, you know, we would say, well, that's not very good theology, 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:23.985 right? And the idea of baptizing people who just, you know, get up the desire to, because they feel 00:32:23.985 --> 00:32:28.865 like they ought to, or they don't understand what they think baptism does save them, they think, 00:32:30.944 --> 00:32:35.985 you know, so we don't want to be baptizing people who then have a false assurance, 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:42.145 who then live their lives, not following Christ thinking, well, I was baptized, I did the thing, 00:32:43.385 --> 00:32:57.145 not, you know, I don't got to worry about my relationship with God because I did that one thing that one time. And does not pre-baptism catechesis guard against that. So what would you say like to that? Why would we? 00:32:58.446 --> 00:33:07.505 Yeah, I think that that certainly would be like, there would be, for me, like, it's more 00:33:07.505 --> 00:33:11.292 of like, okay, when does the church disciple the new believer? 00:33:13.065 --> 00:33:17.605 Does the church disciple the new believer in like a form of catechesis only before baptism? 00:33:17.605 --> 00:33:24.300 And then we give them the information that they need in order to understand what they're doing, right? 00:33:24.785 --> 00:33:31.637 Right, and then you get baptized, and then like, okay, we gave you the information, you did the thing, great. 00:33:32.905 --> 00:33:37.039 What is the substantive difference between the like. 00:33:39.545 --> 00:33:46.785 I repent of my sin, I confess, like, I wanna put the, I want, you know, through faith in Jesus Christ 00:33:46.785 --> 00:33:51.235 for my, the life of sin to be put to death in me, and raising unity with Him. 00:33:52.829 --> 00:34:07.772 And to do so in that act, even with limited, maybe intellectual understanding, and then the responsibility of the church still remains to disciple them in the faith, whether it is in the moments after or the moments before. Right. 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:17.144 And part of that is, of course, that like, hey, yeah, you know, this thing that you did or this thing that you're about to do doesn't save you. 00:34:18.008 --> 00:34:22.159 That there is still a, it is the first step, not the last. 00:34:23.219 --> 00:34:26.830 You know, it is the first step in your relationship with Jesus Christ. 00:34:26.929 --> 00:34:32.599 It's not the last one. You know, and like we've mentioned Roman six a few times 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.048 and Paul opens Roman six, but what then shall we say? 00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:41.719 You know, shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:46.519 By no means. We died to our sin. How can we live in it any longer? 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:52.487 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. 00:34:53.759 --> 00:34:57.759 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised 00:34:57.759 --> 00:35:02.339 from the dead to the glory of the Father, we may too live a new life. 00:35:02.339 --> 00:35:16.739 So then the moment of baptism begins the process begins the process of our sin being continually put to death. 00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:19.403 It's not the mark of sin being put to death. 00:35:20.033 --> 00:35:26.859 It's the mark of sin continually, I think, being put to death. 00:35:26.859 --> 00:35:37.299 And so I think it just, what I think is that I think that it just, it is the responsibility 00:35:37.299 --> 00:35:42.980 or I think, you know, it is the purpose of the church, even as it, you know, as it's. 00:35:44.286 --> 00:35:49.336 Even as like Jesus commanded in Matthew 28, teaching them all the things that I have commanded you, 00:35:50.380 --> 00:35:58.616 you know, that there was a functionality to the work of catechesis or teaching. 00:36:00.102 --> 00:36:06.536 The commands of God, the commands of Jesus that came or that comes along with baptism. But I think 00:36:06.620 --> 00:36:12.776 that the church has defaulted to saying that that is only appropriate or that is most appropriate, 00:36:13.174 --> 00:36:17.496 I should say, most appropriate pre-baptism, not post. 00:36:17.576 --> 00:36:25.705 We're trying to teach people to obey all the commandments of Christ in the Great Commission, but we're doing it before we're willing to baptize them in some sense. 00:36:26.136 --> 00:36:34.296 Yes. Or saying that you must understand or you must be following the teachings of Christ, 00:36:35.176 --> 00:36:37.816 before you make the public profession that you're following Him. 00:36:39.155 --> 00:36:43.736 You know, like you must be sanctified already. Right, to some degree. 00:36:44.385 --> 00:36:50.216 You know, give up the vices, give up the sins, look more like us, then we will, 00:36:51.947 --> 00:36:55.736 put the stamp of baptismal approval on you. 00:36:56.484 --> 00:36:56.876 Yeah. 00:36:59.310 --> 00:37:07.576 And I don't see much in the way of the New Testament that commissions the church to guard 00:37:07.576 --> 00:37:11.112 baptism in the way that it does, at least historically. 00:37:11.373 --> 00:37:11.725 Yeah. 00:37:16.100 --> 00:37:19.424 Yeah, I agree like it's it seems that, 00:37:23.562 --> 00:37:27.641 Baptism kind of happens all over the place in the New Testament like. 00:37:28.901 --> 00:37:34.504 It's talked about way more than communion and it seems to just Happen all the time 00:37:34.504 --> 00:37:40.264 And the spur of the moment. Yeah. Well, how could you we've been criticized here before? 00:37:40.820 --> 00:37:52.892 When we have a baptism here, I try to, in those weeks, teach and preach on baptism and, 00:37:53.384 --> 00:37:55.611 its meaning and its purpose. 00:37:55.904 --> 00:38:09.684 And then we will do the baptisms, usually a handful or so. And then it's been my practice to ask, is there anyone else who this morning or tonight 00:38:09.684 --> 00:38:15.944 has, upon hearing the word of God, has decided that you would like to be baptized as well 00:38:15.944 --> 00:38:25.064 in public profession of a trust in Jesus to put to death your sin and to be united to him in new life? 00:38:26.228 --> 00:38:40.658 And there often is those who respond to that. And the criticism there is like, well, they don't understand this. 00:38:40.964 --> 00:38:44.727 They don't know what this is or they're not... 00:38:45.144 --> 00:38:53.144 We haven't witnessed their actual relationship with Jesus or their conversion or anything like that. 00:38:53.504 --> 00:39:00.024 And my response to that is like, baptism can be the moment of conversion. 00:39:00.076 --> 00:39:05.184 And I think if we take the biblical account most seriously, it... 00:39:06.503 --> 00:39:10.404 Does happen at the moment of conversion. Right. Like the moment of conversion. 00:39:10.404 --> 00:39:17.207 Yeah, well, in the way that we often practice baptism is the day of baptism, 00:39:17.524 --> 00:39:20.772 we usually are very clear in proclaiming the gospel. 00:39:21.164 --> 00:39:27.124 Extraordinary. And so if someone is in the presence of the baptism on that given Sunday, 00:39:27.124 --> 00:39:34.186 they've heard a gospel proclamation and we are inviting them to respond to that gospel proclamation, right? 00:39:35.124 --> 00:39:42.324 And I think a question that could be easily retorted or asked would be just to simply say, 00:39:42.324 --> 00:39:48.211 well, how much did you understand of what it meant to walk with Jesus when you said yes? 00:39:48.464 --> 00:39:54.724 Right, yeah, very little. Very little, none of us really, like if you've been following Jesus 00:39:54.724 --> 00:39:59.044 for more than a year, right? 00:39:59.044 --> 00:40:06.004 Like you are beginning to gain some sense of like, I did not understand what this all was going to entail. 00:40:06.216 --> 00:40:09.637 And you can't, because everyone's journey is gonna be different. 00:40:09.804 --> 00:40:14.516 Well, what do we say to the critic who says, well, yeah, you gave the invitation, 00:40:15.204 --> 00:40:19.665 someone who was there for the very first time at church came forward. 00:40:19.784 --> 00:40:23.203 Yes, I wanna be baptized. I wanna follow Jesus. 00:40:23.324 --> 00:40:25.534 You baptize them, and then you never see him again. 00:40:26.464 --> 00:40:35.164 What are you like, so what about that person, pastor? Well, like one is like, we as a church try and follow up, 00:40:35.164 --> 00:40:38.966 like we're not willfully just like saying like, 00:40:39.284 --> 00:40:43.206 oh, we don't, we desire no connection with you past this moment. 00:40:43.804 --> 00:40:50.004 But the thing too is, is like, well, the same way at a Billy Graham, 00:40:50.004 --> 00:40:54.765 at a Billy Graham, you know, thing, like, not that that justifies it, 00:40:55.044 --> 00:41:00.688 but like, I guess it's just saying is like, we can't control people. 00:41:01.607 --> 00:41:07.044 Right. Like I can't control what someone does. People are personally responsible 00:41:07.044 --> 00:41:10.344 for their walk with Jesus. 00:41:11.184 --> 00:41:20.934 It's, I don't like, I don't find a huge substantive difference between the person who makes the commitment. 00:41:21.864 --> 00:41:26.444 The first time that they're gets baptized we never see them again. 00:41:26.138 --> 00:41:32.538 And the legitimacy of their salvation being questioned, and the person who sits in the 00:41:32.853 --> 00:41:38.948 pew every single week, but continues to hold unforgiveness in their heart towards their 00:41:38.948 --> 00:41:43.782 neighbor, or they're not generous with those who are in need, or they're unloving, and their. 00:41:44.228 --> 00:41:51.268 Words are not full of grace and seasoned with salt. They're no less demonstrating that their 00:41:51.268 --> 00:41:57.188 their lives have been changed by the gospel of Jesus than the person who made the decision 00:41:57.188 --> 00:41:58.573 and then we never saw them again. 00:41:58.636 --> 00:42:04.028 It's just easier for us to have criticism for those who it's like, well, 00:42:04.028 --> 00:42:07.028 their salvation wasn't legitimate because we never saw them again. 00:42:07.028 --> 00:42:12.599 Well, maybe your salvation isn't legitimate because you continue to live without any love 00:42:12.708 --> 00:42:16.497 for anyone, including God, but yet you're here every week. 00:42:16.628 --> 00:42:19.668 So you tell me what the difference is. 00:42:20.025 --> 00:42:27.740 Yeah, well, this is a little bit off topic, but it's on that particular point, and I think 00:42:27.803 --> 00:42:33.952 gets maybe at the heart behind some of these kind of questions and wrestlings. 00:42:34.177 --> 00:42:42.148 I was reading, found a quote from C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, and Lewis is making 00:42:42.148 --> 00:42:47.668 this point, and he's saying, like, we often judge by exterior. 00:42:47.668 --> 00:42:52.788 We're judging people's, like, what we see. God's judging by something different. 00:42:52.788 --> 00:42:54.747 He's judging the internal man. 00:42:55.028 --> 00:42:58.608 And Lewis compares, oh, I'm gonna forget. 00:42:59.878 --> 00:43:06.468 He can he makes a couple different illustrations, but he's essentially he's comparing one man who. 00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:09.868 You know, maybe has grown up in, 00:43:10.672 --> 00:43:17.988 really harsh Environment has grown up very unloving and has this really harsh and hard character struggles with anger, 00:43:18.567 --> 00:43:22.828 right and bad family background bad temperament all of those things and, 00:43:23.788 --> 00:43:33.308 He loves G comes to know Jesus and then he He, you know, his life is still kind of a mess, but he is in a conversation and he restrains 00:43:33.412 --> 00:43:34.933 himself, right? 00:43:35.188 --> 00:43:40.604 And he kind of like withholds anger and seeks to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. 00:43:40.808 --> 00:43:44.308 But the rest of his life still kind of looks like a little bit like a mess. 00:43:44.308 --> 00:43:50.948 Versus maybe the person who seems to live this very, you know, Christian, quote-unquote, 00:43:50.948 --> 00:43:54.252 lifestyle on the outward appearance, just by default. 00:43:55.233 --> 00:43:59.860 Maybe been raised in such a way, family dynamics, personality type, they don't 00:44:00.208 --> 00:44:04.648 have any overt visible sins that the world could look at and say, oh you're 00:44:04.648 --> 00:44:09.328 doing an awful thing. They can kind of, even before Christ or without Christ, 00:44:09.664 --> 00:44:14.928 they would have looked like an acceptably moral person. And post-Christ, 00:44:15.218 --> 00:44:21.248 post being in Jesus, they don't make any significant changes in their life, 00:44:21.772 --> 00:44:26.168 because they're like, well, I look good enough, I'm basically good, so like I 00:44:26.168 --> 00:44:29.768 don't really have any significant sin to get rid of, and so they actually never 00:44:29.768 --> 00:44:34.888 grow, they never move on that sanctification spectrum. 00:44:35.708 --> 00:44:37.013 Who's God more pleased with? 00:44:38.957 --> 00:44:44.487 And we might be tempted to look at the person who's not moving at all in their sanctification, 00:44:44.611 --> 00:44:50.687 but is already just at this starting point that seems good enough, seems like a good moral person. 00:44:51.011 --> 00:44:56.087 And we might look at the other person who's got several problems in their life and external, 00:44:56.087 --> 00:45:02.727 visible sin, but who is making movement and progress in their sanctification and growing, 00:45:02.727 --> 00:45:09.106 right? Who is God more pleased with? And Lewis is making the argument, he's like, 00:45:09.610 --> 00:45:14.447 the one who's making growth, the one who is growing in Christ, responding to the work of the 00:45:14.447 --> 00:45:24.287 Spirit in your life. Right. And so I think that is a heart shift that maybe we need to hold on to, 00:45:25.031 --> 00:45:30.887 as we're even thinking about, like, because a lot, both of these conversations around communion, 00:45:31.611 --> 00:45:37.427 and around baptism, like really where a lot of people and a lot of churches and 00:45:37.526 --> 00:45:43.647 theological argumentation happens is who gets to. Who gets to and who controls who 00:45:43.647 --> 00:45:51.127 gets to. Who controls who gets to. And if we have a heart that is shaped by the 00:45:51.127 --> 00:46:02.318 gospel and is choosing to submit ultimate judgment to God and is willing to say that, like, you don't need to look a certain way, that. 00:46:03.247 --> 00:46:11.407 There's certain, there's not a certain visible morality necessary, but that there's rather a spiritual condition or 00:46:11.407 --> 00:46:19.765 surrender to Christ that is necessary. That, I think, solves a whole lot of the tension, at least for does for me. 00:46:19.981 --> 00:46:25.202 Yeah. 00:46:28.551 --> 00:46:35.036 I'm just thinking about like, what about really outward sins? Hmm. 00:46:36.500 --> 00:46:43.876 That, okay, so let's say that baptism is the mark of a willingness to confess your sins, 00:46:43.876 --> 00:46:46.790 repent of them, turn to Jesus in faith. 00:46:48.545 --> 00:46:46.790 Okay. 00:46:48.596 --> 00:46:56.143 Yes. Yes. Right. So a justifying act, but not a sanctifying one. 00:46:57.196 --> 00:47:02.120 But then there are very outward sins. 00:47:03.796 --> 00:47:07.441 We all know what those are, like very outwardly. Let's just use like, 00:47:12.316 --> 00:47:17.796 oh, geez, what's an outward sin that we can use? Now I'm getting myself all messed up in my head 00:47:17.796 --> 00:47:22.655 because I'm like, well, let's say. 00:47:31.096 --> 00:47:34.880 Let's just say we post both, 00:47:38.516 --> 00:47:47.663 that pre-baptism, we continue to see besetting sin alive and well, 00:47:47.776 --> 00:47:51.210 not put to death in the life of a believer, 00:47:51.576 --> 00:47:53.982 but they want to be baptized. 00:47:54.176 --> 00:48:03.896 Like still a, either it comes as an unwillingness or it comes as a, I'm enslaved to this, 00:48:05.019 --> 00:48:11.960 and I'm not experiencing any, I'm not experiencing any victory in my life in this, 00:48:12.836 --> 00:48:17.836 but still believe in Jesus, still desire to follow him, 00:48:18.876 --> 00:48:23.876 still wanna be united to him in his death and in his life. 00:48:23.876 --> 00:48:28.110 Like, can I be baptized if I'm not like. 00:48:30.054 --> 00:48:41.820 Have found freedom in any of these things? Well, again, when we're talking about baptism, like, I'd say, yeah, they should be baptized. 00:48:42.081 --> 00:48:50.224 Like, because if we're tying it to a confession of Christ, right? Like, we're again, we're talking 00:48:50.224 --> 00:48:58.088 about justification, not sanctification, then, yeah, like, we baptize someone, like. 00:49:00.144 --> 00:49:07.099 Knowing that the gospel and sanctification is still going to be a ongoing thing. Yeah. 00:49:07.594 --> 00:49:13.424 And I think... I mean, I've been baptized, and I've had to repent of sins. 00:49:13.424 --> 00:49:15.984 Yes. Post-baptism. Gosh. Yeah. 00:49:16.704 --> 00:49:28.864 Right? If... I still struggle with sin. if my first baptism depended upon me never struggling with besetting sin again, post-baptism, 00:49:30.464 --> 00:49:40.304 let's go fill up the bathtub. Because that didn't count. And there becomes a significant... 00:49:43.756 --> 00:49:48.914 You know, when we're having a conversation with someone, and they want to be baptized, 00:49:49.024 --> 00:49:53.668 Like, it can take so long. 00:49:54.264 --> 00:49:58.224 We like to make snap judgments. We like to be able to sit down with someone, 00:49:58.224 --> 00:50:00.689 have a 30 minute conversation and think we know them. 00:50:01.104 --> 00:50:03.579 And we often even do it in even less than that. 00:50:05.224 --> 00:50:11.645 And the thing is, is like, you wanna be the judge of whose names are in the book of life? 00:50:12.704 --> 00:50:16.484 I don't wanna be the judge. That's not my decision. 00:50:16.758 --> 00:50:29.262 And it takes, it can take years of walking with someone to begin to see their heart and 00:50:29.584 --> 00:50:34.088 to begin to see the trajectory that God is having in their lives. 00:50:34.250 --> 00:50:43.704 I think one of the great things that people often misunderstand is we read passages like 00:50:43.828 --> 00:50:49.338 Like Paul talking about putting, we're no longer slaves to sin, we're slaves to righteousness, 00:50:49.504 --> 00:50:50.589 putting off the old self. 00:50:51.104 --> 00:50:54.505 And we think, oh that's a thing that I can do like flipping a switch, right? 00:50:55.184 --> 00:50:57.620 Put off the old self. Well, that's as much as just. 00:50:59.591 --> 00:51:07.761 You know, you know, picking, changing clothes. It's that easy. Well, anyone who has been walking 00:51:07.761 --> 00:51:15.681 with Jesus long enough knows that that's not true. There are sometimes what has been called, 00:51:15.813 --> 00:51:23.921 a term, gross sins. Not that they're actually gross, but gross as in that they're kind of large, 00:51:23.921 --> 00:51:30.721 visibly, easily seen and interacted with sins. Sometimes when people make a decision to follow 00:51:30.721 --> 00:51:38.081 Christ, those gross sins, they will have some sins that kind of just fall off almost without 00:51:38.081 --> 00:51:45.521 trying, and that's a grace and a blessing to God or into their life from God. But then there comes 00:51:45.521 --> 00:51:54.481 a point at which that stops, and that the more underlying, internal, habituated sins that are 00:51:54.613 --> 00:52:02.721 in a person's deep way of being take years to be removed. And so if you're talking about like. 00:52:03.525 --> 00:52:10.321 Am I going to say, no, you cannot be baptized, we're going to wait till you take care of that 00:52:10.321 --> 00:52:20.561 sin, how many years am I willing to wait? And am I withholding from them a means of grace, 00:52:21.323 --> 00:52:28.721 a way of Christ affirming to them that they are His, that they are united with Him in death and 00:52:28.721 --> 00:52:35.601 into life, and denying them something that could be important to them overcoming that sin? 00:52:35.601 --> 00:52:36.122 Yes. Yep. Agreed. 00:52:38.241 --> 00:52:41.441 I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, nope, I'm not gonna do that. 00:52:41.441 --> 00:52:46.441 I am going to err on the side of Jesus being like, 00:52:47.681 --> 00:52:50.373 you baptized way too many people that didn't really mean it. 00:52:51.601 --> 00:52:55.881 That's the side I would like to err on rather than him being like, 00:52:57.143 --> 00:53:00.780 people wanted to do the thing that I commanded them to do and you wouldn't let them. 00:53:02.913 --> 00:53:00.780 Yeah. 00:53:04.201 --> 00:53:09.921 I'll err on the side of like, man, bro, You were passing out baptism like it was candy on Halloween. 00:53:10.277 --> 00:53:16.401 Right. Well, you know, it's not mine to guard. Baptism is not mine. 00:53:16.401 --> 00:53:18.208 It's not the church's. 00:53:18.370 --> 00:53:19.577 It belongs to Christ. 00:53:20.361 --> 00:53:21.494 It belongs to his spirit. 00:53:23.970 --> 00:53:31.300 You know, we really familiar parable is the parable of you know, the sower and the four soils 00:53:31.660 --> 00:53:36.160 and The funny thing is right, you know, you read that parable and you're just like, 00:53:37.176 --> 00:53:38.840 What is that farmer doing? 00:53:39.984 --> 00:53:45.900 Cuz he's just tossing seed everywhere. He goes right. He's tossing it in thorns tossing it on the road 00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:51.903 Thank goodness. Jesus gave an explanation, right? And you're like, why is he doing that? 00:53:52.040 --> 00:53:57.413 You know? And you know what? Sometimes, I think we're just like, you know what? 00:53:58.280 --> 00:53:59.700 We're going to be better farmers than that. 00:54:01.131 --> 00:54:06.937 We're only going to throw on the good soil. Really? 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:11.360 Come on now. Right? Right? And I don't know. 00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:18.080 Jesus, that parable, I keep mentioning the parable of the wheat and the weeds. 00:54:18.080 --> 00:54:22.529 Jesus really does invite us to spread widely. 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:27.886 Yes. To leave the judgment of the goats and the sheep to him, 00:54:28.120 --> 00:54:32.630 to say like, let us invite all who will come, 00:54:33.200 --> 00:54:41.540 because what I might think is rocky soil, might be good soil that's just needs to rest fallow for a year. 00:54:43.120 --> 00:54:48.969 Like, you know, like heaven forbid, I'd be the person who is like, you know what? 00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:54.460 I just think they're really gonna be unresponsive to this. So I'm not going to push. 00:54:54.640 --> 00:54:57.719 I'm not gonna like, you know, invite them in because they just seem 00:54:57.971 --> 00:55:00.330 like they're not really responsive to the gospel. 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:03.640 And that'd be, you know, I would hate for that to be on my conscience. 00:55:04.705 --> 00:55:05.164 Yeah. 00:55:08.063 --> 00:55:09.833 Does the mode of baptism matter? 00:55:13.914 --> 00:55:19.433 Well, I mean, no. Because I mean, like... So if I'm sprinkled on the top of my head, 00:55:20.953 --> 00:55:25.599 it is the same as if I am fully immersed in water? 00:55:25.743 --> 00:55:31.673 My personal preference, or my personal conviction is, not preference, but conviction is 00:55:31.673 --> 00:55:37.193 full immersion, because that seems to be what is talked about in the New Testament. 00:55:39.571 --> 00:55:44.313 You know, like, I guess there's maybe I'm just culturally reading into the text, 00:55:45.673 --> 00:55:49.593 but there seems to be pretty good, like, that's how baptism was done. 00:55:52.219 --> 00:55:58.393 You know, so again, it comes to a place of, like, if one can be immersed, why not? 00:55:59.331 --> 00:56:09.273 It seems to carry a stronger imagery of the cross, tomb, and resurrection. 00:56:10.088 --> 00:56:16.553 Sprinkling has a stronger imagery of the atonement and the mercy seat and Old Testament imagery, 00:56:17.281 --> 00:56:19.685 which is not insignificant. Not at all, no. 00:56:20.081 --> 00:56:26.329 But, you know, that's fine. But the question... And the imagery of like being cleansed, 00:56:26.713 --> 00:56:31.593 like the water cleansing us of our sin, being washed by the water for the forgiveness of sins. 00:56:32.306 --> 00:56:32.936 Yep, yep. So like. 00:56:34.061 --> 00:56:39.233 Yeah, so, but the simple answer to the question is, Luke, have you ever sprinkle baptized somebody? 00:56:39.233 --> 00:56:41.686 And I have, I did last year. 00:56:41.873 --> 00:56:47.484 We had somebody who was not, for medical reasons, not able to be immersed in water like that. 00:56:47.713 --> 00:56:54.587 And so that's what I talked about was like the atonement, like cleansing, like, and we sprinkled them. 00:56:54.713 --> 00:56:58.485 And it was a fantastic, it was my favorite baptism. Right. 00:56:58.673 --> 00:57:07.415 Because, I mean, the question is, is like, the sprinkling or the dunking is something that you and I do. 00:57:09.033 --> 00:57:16.714 But the actual, like, significance of the baptism is done by the Holy Spirit. 00:57:17.371 --> 00:57:21.242 Right. We baptize with water, Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit. 00:57:21.971 --> 00:57:25.888 Right, so is the Holy Spirit present in this baptism? 00:57:28.984 --> 00:57:35.682 Seems to me to be I'm not salient point. Yeah now, 00:57:37.032 --> 00:57:43.034 There are some people that will live and die on this hill that they would they will die on the hill of full immersion 00:57:43.034 --> 00:57:48.994 This was the way that Jesus was baptized. This is the way that the New Testament Church has always baptized people, 00:57:50.022 --> 00:57:55.406 it is like Baptism must be full immersion or triple dunking, 00:57:56.504 --> 00:58:00.366 Right. And the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 00:58:01.023 --> 00:58:03.834 Or first part of the creed, second part of the creed, third part of the creed. 00:58:03.834 --> 00:58:08.855 Or day one, day two, day three, day two, you know, like... 00:58:09.874 --> 00:58:18.965 I'm not there. I'm just not there. Maybe it's... Maybe I have a lower liturgical view of baptism than others. 00:58:19.235 --> 00:58:22.980 What I would say was like, I don't think the water matters much at all. 00:58:23.862 --> 00:58:31.674 Mm-hmm. Well, that's maybe an overstatement. The water does matter water matter. Yeah you I think that baptism does require water 00:58:31.674 --> 00:58:33.620 But what do we use a cattle? 00:58:34.035 --> 00:58:35.974 Watering trough like. 00:58:39.354 --> 00:58:46.314 Use a large storage tank 700 gallon water storage tank with the top cut off like this thing was not bought from a, 00:58:47.331 --> 00:58:52.474 Church magazine was bought from like yeah, it's a farmer store. It doesn't have a heater in it 00:58:52.474 --> 00:58:57.754 you know, I filled up with the hose. It's not special water. It's city of Jamestown water. 00:58:57.754 --> 00:59:01.754 Yeah. Yeah. We're not importing water from the Jordan River. 00:59:01.754 --> 00:59:07.594 No, I'm not making the sign of the cross over the water to somehow supernaturally bless it or anything like that. 00:59:07.775 --> 00:59:10.260 But we do believe Christ is present in baptism. 00:59:10.737 --> 00:59:11.241 Correct. 00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:14.149 Yeah. And yes, maybe the specifics of it are... 00:59:15.211 --> 00:59:24.654 Let's not put Christ into a box by putting so many specifics around the mode that we 00:59:24.654 --> 00:59:29.101 end up limiting Christ's ability to be present in baptism. Right, right. 00:59:31.532 --> 00:59:35.382 So could we have communion with Kool-Aid and Cheez-Its? I don't like that. 00:59:37.862 --> 00:59:50.742 What's the difference? You know, like, again, I would say, like, when, you know, like, if you push me, I'm like, 00:59:50.742 --> 00:59:53.862 sure, because that's the only thing that's in your cupboard. 00:59:54.677 --> 01:00:03.062 But when we could have the option for bread and fruit of the vine, then let us do that. 01:00:03.634 --> 01:00:05.302 Oh, if it's grape Kool-Aid. 01:00:06.422 --> 01:00:09.142 That's not fruit. That is powder, Cameron. 01:00:11.702 --> 01:00:13.542 Okay. Okay. 01:00:15.622 --> 01:00:22.262 I don't wanna be disrespectful. That would be my biggest thing, is that if you have nothing to take 01:00:22.262 --> 01:00:27.301 communion but that, sure. But is it just being done because you wanna be edgy? 01:00:27.373 --> 01:00:30.582 Right. Let's not do it because we wanna be provocative. 01:00:30.677 --> 01:00:30.956 Yeah. 01:00:31.307 --> 01:00:35.142 And say that the elements don't matter. Right. Let's not do that. Right. 01:00:35.925 --> 01:00:44.502 Let's be respectful, right? And same thing with, I guess I could maybe ask the Catholic Church if 01:00:44.502 --> 01:00:49.062 they could have gotten better super soakers for when they were doing squirting baptisms during 01:00:49.062 --> 01:00:54.342 COVID. I just, like, part of me just says... 01:00:54.342 --> 01:00:56.342 Jesus is going to have something to say about that. 01:00:56.487 --> 01:01:01.702 I was just going to say, you know what? Like, you guys are that scared? Like, let's... 01:01:02.582 --> 01:01:07.382 I would have... Yeah. My thoughts, but... Right. Well, then what about. 01:01:09.927 --> 01:01:18.817 This is like the lightning round. Yeah. Cretal baptism versus infant baptism, pedo-baptism. 01:01:19.442 --> 01:01:30.177 I am sympathetic towards infant Baptists. Like I generally get it because, you know, and even, 01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:36.637 I think the biggest, there's that one passage that talks about baptism as being the marker 01:01:36.897 --> 01:01:42.177 of the New Covenant and it's put right next to circumcision. And so that's where that, if you're 01:01:42.177 --> 01:01:48.337 curious as to why people, some people baptize babies, it's because, well, circumcision was done 01:01:48.337 --> 01:01:55.777 to children on such and such day. And therefore, baptism replaces circumcision for us, and 01:01:55.777 --> 01:02:03.857 therefore, children should be baptized. I don't buy that in its entirety. I don't believe that. 01:02:04.166 --> 01:02:04.657 No, I don't either. 01:02:04.967 --> 01:02:13.217 I do, I'm not of the persuasion that somebody must be rebaptized if they were baptized as 01:02:13.217 --> 01:02:16.688 an infant and now profess Christ as an adult. 01:02:16.859 --> 01:02:21.137 I am not of the persuasion that they must necessarily be baptized. 01:02:21.137 --> 01:02:27.977 I believe that God can use their faith and that that baptism is now their baptism and 01:02:27.977 --> 01:02:29.633 credited towards them. 01:02:30.257 --> 01:02:34.521 Beautiful picture of God's sovereignty and grace and like the family they were born into, 01:02:34.953 --> 01:02:41.057 but given the choice, I would not baptize a child because I don't feel like that seems 01:02:41.057 --> 01:02:48.817 representative of, again, of self... is the baptism is tied to... 01:02:48.817 --> 01:02:49.906 Monus justification. 01:02:49.951 --> 01:02:53.937 Justification. And I ask people, I'm like, well, now that they've been baptized, 01:02:53.937 --> 01:02:57.377 does that mean that they're saved? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, okay, 01:02:57.377 --> 01:03:00.457 then you have changed the meaning of baptism. 01:03:00.457 --> 01:03:06.029 Correct. And so many people, people who baptize infants don't. 01:03:07.253 --> 01:03:12.277 Think that the baby is then saved by baptism. That's not that theology. 01:03:12.466 --> 01:03:18.479 They've just simply shifted baptism to mean something other than the justification. 01:03:18.583 --> 01:03:23.691 And I think that ignores all the rest of Scripture in light of just a single Scripture. Correct. 01:03:24.952 --> 01:03:30.885 That's my thought. Yeah, I generally feel the same way. Again, sympathetic towards those who desire that. 01:03:31.587 --> 01:03:46.233 But because of my belief that baptism is tied to the moment of personal justification, I 01:03:46.386 --> 01:03:57.043 reserve the right to baptize those whom are themselves willing to make a confession of 01:03:57.043 --> 01:03:58.791 Jesus. Does that mean children? 01:03:59.584 --> 01:04:04.483 It absolutely means children. Yes, I believe that children can make confession, 01:04:04.483 --> 01:04:08.043 a confession of faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins. 01:04:08.043 --> 01:04:09.594 Well, what age can they do that, Cameron? 01:04:10.203 --> 01:04:14.888 Whatever age they can do that. Whenever they choose. Because like, I will tell you that like I, 01:04:15.243 --> 01:04:20.388 you know, you asked me my story of faith and like I still include the prayer I prayed when I was six. 01:04:21.503 --> 01:04:26.302 Because I have vivid memories of it. And it was a significant spiritual moment for me, right? 01:04:27.446 --> 01:04:31.488 There's been a whole bunch of hills and valleys and other moments of choice and commitment, 01:04:31.533 --> 01:04:34.080 but that was not an inconsequential moment. 01:04:35.034 --> 01:04:36.979 So, yeah. 01:04:39.643 --> 01:04:44.046 What else? What else? I mean, I think that kind of covered it, didn't it? 01:04:44.523 --> 01:04:47.563 I mean, we have covered everything there is to cover about baptism. 01:04:47.563 --> 01:04:52.763 Well, that's not true. Yeah, I think we could have an interesting conversation. 01:04:52.763 --> 01:04:55.843 We're running kind of long on time, but we could have an interesting conversation 01:04:55.843 --> 01:04:58.630 about the connection between baptism and circumcision. 01:04:58.692 --> 01:05:00.286 Mm-hmm. But... 01:05:01.807 --> 01:05:06.923 Yeah, I think that would be a good conversation, even for me, to flesh out, like, okay, well, 01:05:06.923 --> 01:05:13.923 if I don't think that that means infant baptism, what do I think that that passage means? 01:05:13.923 --> 01:05:18.821 Coming up with not just a negative theology of the passage, but coming up with an affirmative 01:05:18.893 --> 01:05:19.641 theology from that passage. 01:05:19.883 --> 01:05:26.096 Maybe we can tackle that in a kind of a, we'll Q&A ourselves into that question. Yeah, maybe. 01:05:27.923 --> 01:05:32.496 All right, well, we'll stop there. As always, thank you for listening. 01:05:32.604 --> 01:05:37.204 Please like, subscribe, rate, and share it. 01:05:37.363 --> 01:05:41.408 If you have any questions that you would like us to tackle in our next Q&A episode, 01:05:42.092 --> 01:05:48.286 you can text those questions to our mailbag, phone number 716-201-0507. 01:05:49.923 --> 01:05:50.763 We'll see you next time. 01:05:51.760 --> 01:06:01.108 Music. 01:06:01.087 --> 01:05:51.032 Next time.