Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that
works.
My guest today is Weston Knick.
Weston is considered one of the world's most recognizable and sought after speakers and educational leaders.
He is an award-winning teacher, bestselling author, head, ex, speaker, coach, husband and father.
He is the author of the Educators Atlas Bold School, breaking Bold.
Co-author of the Learning Transformation, a Guide to Blended Learning for Administrators and the creator and host of Teaching Keating, one of the most downloaded podcasts in the United States for educators and parents.
Wessin has worked in collaboration with innovative tech and publishing companies such as Google, Hutton, Mifflin, hard Court, apple to refine and redefine teaching and learning in schools.
As such, he's advised educators from every state in the US and more than 30 countries around the World District, where Weston has work, has designed content, implemented initiatives and trained educational leaders that have been recognized by the Learning Council as one of the top 10 in the nation for their work in blended learning.
You can find Weston's work published in EdWeek EdTech Magazine, the Spark and featured on Ted, the 10 minute Teacher Teaching Tales.
Kids deserve it and lead up to teach.
Connect with Weston on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, or@westonknik.com.
Weston and I talk about everything from teaching, teaching and learning, teaching and tech to parenting.
I think you're gonna like this one.
Hello Weston, thank you for being a guest on Better Teaching Only stuff that works.
Weston: Awesome, gene.
Thanks for having me, man.
I appreciate you.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I, you know, as we said before we got recording here, I became a fan.
You know, after I read your first book Bold School.
And it was 2018, I think was the published date.
And so,
Weston: Boy, doesn't that seem like ages ago.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah,
Weston: Lots has changed since I wrote that book.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, and that's what I wanna talk to you about, you know, but I think one of the things that.
You know, got me to be a fan of yours in that book was the idea that the technology isn't gonna teach.
Weston: It's not Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: The teacher teaches the technology is great to provide rehearsal, to provide practice, provide repetitions, all of those things.
And that I really bought into that, that made sense to me.
Weston: So, you know what?
It made sense to me too.
It's why I wrote the book.
It was like, man I keep, I, I actually, I'll tell you this, I don't think I've actually talked about this on a podcast before.
One of the catalysts for me writing that book was I did an event at Google and one of the, you know, they show up and the Google Fred people are all there.
And one of the Google for Fred people, and this was maybe in, I don't know, 20 14, 20 15, so this was a few years before the book before I even wrote the book.
But one of the basic premises they were operating on was like, Hey.
We believe that technology can move to a place where it can not only like surpass, but essentially supplant the role of the classroom teacher.
Like we can standardize and use technology in such a way.
And I remember sitting there thinking, good God, I hope that's not true.
I hope that's not true as a teacher.
I hope that's not true as a parent.
And so, like that moment like stuck in my brain and frankly stuck in my crawl so much, I was like.
I don't think there's ever a space where the most important thing we put in the classroom is the technology more than the teacher.
And that was really the impetus for that whole book.
Gene Tavernetti: Can you talk a little bit more about the book because I still think it's a must read for everybody.
Weston: No I appreciate that, man.
And so the basic premise behind bold School is just a mashup of the words blended and old as a constant reminder to all of us that as we pursue new paths towards blended learning and we're always pursuing new paths toward, and.
Frankly, I don't even like to call it blended learning anymore, because any teaching and learning that we're doing with kids right now includes technology in some way, shape, or form.
So as we're pursuing those paths towards, you know, technology integrated instruction, the fact is like our old school wisdom has to come with us on that path.
And when I'm talking about old school wisdom, I'm talking about those instructional strategies that we know work.
That have worked with kids for a really long time.
I leaned into John Hattie's work really heavily for that book to say like, okay, if we're gonna bring an instructional strategy, like reciprocal teaching, which John tells us has an effect size of greater than seven tenths into the modern classroom.
Like how can we use tools like Pear Deck or Nearpod to elevate.
As opposed to replace a strategy like reciprocal teaching and make it more effective than inefficient than it's ever been before.
And that was the whole premise for that book to say like.
We can't continue to have conversations about digital tools that occur independent from instructional strategies because otherwise, like any innovation that we throw into a classroom is rudderless.
Like the conversation that we have about digital tools, like, you know, whether it's gim kid or Cahoot has to be like, okay.
These are tools that are vehicles for questioning and feedback.
Questioning has an effect size of 0.48.
Feedback has an effect size of 0.74.
So like, let's talk about questioning and feedback and then how those tools can support those strategies.
And that's sort of the mindset that we need to approach the integration of technology within our classrooms.
But that's, it's not what I was seeing and it's not what I was experiencing as a classroom teacher and the, I thought that those conversations were necessary.
As our, especially our veteran teachers, didn't see where they fit in the new world of digital instruction.
Gene Tavernetti: My experience is they still don't.
You know, and I think, you know, we have anybody who listens to my podcast know that I'm gonna talk about silos, and I'm gonna talk about the, you know, one of the big silos in education is the tech people.
And I always make a joke, you can always tell the tech people because they have all the stickers on the back of their computer.
That's so,
Weston: it's so funny 'cause it's so true.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
And so as you're talking about this you know, you mentioned at least four or five different platforms just in a couple minutes.
Yeah.
And I think if we could talk about this for a second, there's other things I wanna talk about.
Yeah.
But the, i, the idea that, okay, so I'm.
Let's say I'm an old school guy.
I'm a teacher and I feel like I'm pretty, pretty good.
You know, my kids, I got good scores every year and now.
I've got these platforms.
You want me to use these platforms?
Which platforms?
Well, here's four or five you could use.
Well, geez.
And then, you know what's gonna happen?
Then they're gonna be, you know, there's not four or five.
We are in a school district right now.
There were 15 different platforms being used throughout.
Throughout the district, so that becomes an issue.
So do you have any suggestions for those teachers for choosing platforms or any suggestions to
Weston: school?
Absolutely.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So like step number one, so if you're like, you know, Jean, you're a classroom teacher, I'm talking to you about this, and you're like, Hey, I've got all these, like what do I use?
The first thing I want to know from Eugene is like, okay, what is it that you do best?
Right.
Like, because everybody in every walk of life, you find success by figuring out like, Hey, what are the things that I do best?
And then you build around those things.
And so like, the first thing I want to know is like.
What are your go-to instructional strategies, right?
What are you a master at?
Because if it's questioning, if it's feedback, if it's metacognitive strategies, things like think pair shares or quick writes or think alouds.
If you are the reciprocal teaching master of the universe, or you are a science or math teacher and you love problem solving, teaching as a methodology, right?
You know, model problem, discuss, struggle, intervene like I want to.
I wanna know first and foremost what you do best.
And then I think the role of a lot of the tech people out there isn't to show you like, Hey, here's 15 tools.
It's to be able to say like, no.
Here's what this teacher does really well.
And because I'm an expert at all of this tech and all of these tools, here are the two or three that I would suggest that I think can elevate what this teacher is doing.
And not just make them more effective, but make them more efficient in the work that they do.
And that's a thing that I think a lot of our tech coordinators and people around the country I don't think they've done a good enough job of answering that question.
We do a really good job of answering the question of like, Hey, how does this, you know, enhance teacher efficacy?
But we do a really bad job of answering the question of how does this address teacher efficiency?
Efficiency when it comes to planning and delivery of instruction?
'cause I'll tell you this, if I'm a classroom teacher and you give me a tool and that tool is gonna cost me more time in terms of my planning and less efficiency in terms of my delivery, guess how many times I'm gonna use it?
Zero.
Zero or I'll use it the one time that you pop in and you do your observation and I need to show you that I'm using the thing and then you're never gonna see it again.
So I think number one, we have to figure out what do you do best?
Number two, match the tools to the thing that you do best.
And number three, answer the question of not just efficacy, but improved efficiency.
Gene Tavernetti: You gave an answer, and I'm gonna say you gave a current day answer that this is what you do right now.
Yes.
When you're working with folks.
Okay.
Yeah.
So let's go back at the time machine to 2018.
Was anything different?
Has your thinking changed about use of technology?
You know, you're gonna have a 2.0, a Bold School 2.0 with updates, or are you pretty.
You're pretty consistent in, in, because it wasn't specific about tools, it wasn't specific about I'm,
Weston: yeah I'm actually happy with how Evergreen that book has stayed given sort of its peripheral.
Focus on technology.
Is there any I'll tell you this, and it's not I touched on this a little bit in Bold school, but this is actually an an opinion of mine that has changed.
It's done a complete 180 over time.
And I wrote about this in Bold School and I did a blog post about this once upon a time that went viral where I talked about the use of cell phones in school.
And this, sorry, this may not be the path that you want me to take, so if it's not, just let me know.
But my, my, my thinking around the presence of cell phones in school used to be dramatically different.
I was a hardcore advocate for the presence of cell phones in our schools and the ability for teachers to be able to use them in their instruction and my opinion on that has changed completely.
But also I will say.
That was my opinion in 20 16, 20 17, 20 18.
When the digital divide in this country was massive, it was massive.
Like forget about the schools who had gone one-to-one and the ones who hadn't.
I'm talking about schools who had gone one-to-one and schools that didn't have reliable internet access.
Like that was a massive divide.
And if COVID did anything positive for us and there the things that are positive that came out of that are few.
I think the one positive thing was it bridged the digital divide really quickly.
For schools around the country, because so many schools were forced in a place where it was like, Hey, we have to catch up.
Our kids are about to go home.
We don't know for how long, and we've gotta make sure that they go home and they can have access to the school, their teacher.
And so, so many of our schools went one-to-one.
And because that's the case, and there's so much more equity around technology and our schools I'm not an advocate for.
Cell phones in our schools.
I'm actually looking at some of the bands that are happening around the country.
And quite frankly, I think those are good for kids and good for teachers.
Almost every Stitcher research that's out there right now says that the presence of your cell phone with like any proximity to you whatsoever even if it's off.
And that's the amazing part.
Like even if your phone is by you and you've turned it off, the fact that it's near you decreases productivity over time.
And it's like.
Okay.
We've we've got enough research, we've got enough data around this.
Like we've seen these in our schools for long enough and you know what, like they're not helping our kids.
They're sure as hell not helping our teachers.
And I'm not an advocate anymore.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, it's interesting.
It is very clear.
All you need to do is to be in a school and watch the kids.
Yeah.
And it you will get to your opinion very quickly.
Weston: Oh, yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: And, yeah.
You'll have the whole school in agreement.
And then I'm observing classrooms yesterday.
Kid wants to use the restroom.
Okay.
So you know they have a system now where they have to use their phone and they check in with the QR code.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: To let you know, so.
Oh, we need to rethink some things, you know?
Weston: Yeah.
We've we're doing these bands.
I was thinking about this 'cause my kids own high school next year is sort of rolling out a phased out, like for the freshmen next year.
Like it's no phones for them in classroom and they're gonna phase it by grade level.
I'm not sure how that's gonna work, quite frankly, but we're gonna see.
But I'm thinking about like, okay, when my son shows up to do weight training for football in the morning, he's gotta access the programming via the train heroic app.
And then he's gotta record.
Well, we've required our kids to do so many of the logistical things via their phones, and now we're gonna pull those out and people are gonna have to rethink that.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
No, ab, absolutely.
But I will tell you one other thing.
This is not phones per se, but, you know, we're working in a school and we, you know, we had, we gave everybody training about all the problems with phones, many of which you just talked about and devices in general.
Yeah.
That we just, you know, after COVID, we just became so, so dependent on these devices and as teachers have.
Begun to do less with the Chromebooks.
The kids respond positively.
They're sick of it too.
Weston: They're, yeah.
They're fatigued too.
Yeah.
They're,
Gene Tavernetti: you know.
Yeah.
Weston: You know, I, that's been the most surprising thing, don't you?
Like I, I anticipated seeing pushback around the country because there, there was a huge pendulum swing post COVID, VID where people were so sick of doing everything here.
Yeah.
That a lot of people got back into classrooms and those Chromebook carts sat and gathered dust and kids liked it.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
In some classrooms and in other classrooms.
It was almost as if it was a virtual classroom in person.
Weston: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: Everybody was still, it was still on.
So we're still figuring it out.
I think we're figuring it out.
That's where I think, you know, the evergreen nature of your book is something that, that folks should read.
And the other thing that I to piggyback on something you said about your own book, it talked about.
Strategies of good teacher that good teachers do, you know, it wasn't, you're on your own.
Anything goes?
No.
There, there are some things that we know are effective that we know, that work and that are going to, that are going to work with when you bring the technology in.
Yeah.
What are the things that you know, we know that the, one of the issues with the phones that we just brought up is attention.
And then you wrote another book, Atlas, where one of the a was for attention.
Weston: Attention.
Gene Tavernetti: Can you talk, could you talk about attention a little bit and how you addressed it in, in that book and how important it's
Weston: Yeah, no problem.
So Atlas is just a book on engagement.
This is a word that we use in our profession all the time.
Everyone's talking about engagement, especially right now, our kids are less engaged than ever before.
And so I. I was super interested because what I kept hearing in schools around the country would was people would talk about engagement in different ways, and there was not a clear, like nobody that I talked to could clearly define engagement.
In a really succinct and meaningful way.
And what I actually found was that so many educators were using the words engagement and fun as though they were synonyms.
And I was like, Ooh, that's not like fun.
Isn't the main event in terms of what should be happening in our classrooms?
Yes.
Should they be joyful, engaging, successful?
All those things should be true.
But fun is not the main event learning.
Growth and development, like that's the main event.
And so if we're telling teachers to be more engaging and they're interpreting that as fun.
I was like that's a problem.
So step number one, it was about like let's establish what we mean when we're talking about engagement, right?
Engagement isn't fun.
It's curiosity, participation and the desire to persevere.
And if those three things are present, people are engaged.
Okay?
Step number one, let's get on the same page.
And then step number two was like, okay, I wanted to know what the world's most engaging teachers do, because if we can distill it.
We can replicate it.
And that book actually took me about 12 years to write because I went in thousands of classrooms to try to figure out like what is it that they're doing?
Because engaging teachers already exist.
Like I wish Jean that I could take people around the country, put 'em in my back pocket with me, because the incredible things that I see happening in the nooks and crannies of our country is it's remarkable.
And so I was like, okay, they're al these engaging teachers already exist.
What are they doing?
And after thousands of observations, I was able to distill like, oh, okay.
Number one is enga.
Engagement is formulaic.
Like that's a thing we have to acknowledge.
I talk about that a lot in the book.
And then number two, it's like, okay, what's the formula they're following?
And ATLAS is just an acronym for what engaging teachers do all the time.
They are MAs like the A stands for attention.
The T stands for transition.
The L stands for lesson.
The A stands for activity and the S stands for summation.
And the more of these things that are present, the more likely kids are to be engaged.
And what I found was that masterful teachers were masters of capturing and holding student attention, right?
When kids walked in the door, they used transitional phrases that were repeated for emphasis.
'cause what?
What gets repeated, gets remembered.
They taught a clear and concise lesson that was aligned to a priority content standard.
And then they always followed that lesson with an activity.
There was a doing thing, a way for kids to wrap their heads or hands around the content in ways that weren't possible.
And then the summation, right?
Notice I didn't say summative assessment.
Summation, right?
Masterful teachers understand that learning is sticky when it's tied to emotion.
And they were really clear about those summative activities and the things that like the closer of their lesson and they understood like, hey.
The feeling kids feel when they walk into my classroom can't be boredom.
And the feeling they feel right before they walk out can't be failure.
'cause if those are the two prevailing emotions, they'll forget everything that happens in between.
And so it was like, oh, if we, like, if we can identify this, we can distill it, then we can replicate it.
'cause I refuse to believe that the world's most engaging teachers are just more talented than the rest of us.
Like these are things that are learned over time and they've bumped into 'em and they show up over and over.
Gene Tavernetti: And I think as you talk about those things you don't take anybody's personality out of it.
Does it matter what your personality is?
It's personality neutral.
Weston: Correct.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, and it's also technology neutral.
Weston: Bingo.
Yeah.
And you don't, like so many teachers felt boxed out of engagement because they were like, oh, I'm not funny.
And being engaging has nothing to do with being funny.
There's zero correlation between teachers who are funny and teachers who are engaging.
Right.
And so it's like, I didn't want teachers to feel like, oh, because I'm not, you know, insert personality trait.
Like I can't be engaging 'cause it's just, it's not factual.
Gene Tavernetti: When you were listing those things and people couldn't see you, but you were, you know, it's on on, on your hand.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: What that told me was that teacher, that engaging teacher had a structure.
Weston: Yeah,
Gene Tavernetti: That the kids understood.
the kids, you know, even if I came in bored, hang in there buddy.
You know, this guy hasn't let me down before.
Yeah.
Just hang in there a little bit and we'll get there.
And I think that's one of the things, you know, we hear and you did not mention creativity, you did not mention, you know, these, you know, these wild, you know, how can I teach this lesson?
And then the next day, how can I teach this lesson?
No, you have that structure and that predictability and the kids are gonna trust you.
The kids are gonna be with you, and you know what?
You can even suck one day and the kids are going to be with you.
Weston: Yes.
Yeah.
You know what?
'cause we're all gonna suck and we're gonna suck for more than one day.
Yeah.
That's for sure.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: Yeah.
My, my daughter actually just came home and she was raving about one of the teachers she has, and she was just like.
Guys, I'm so sorry.
Like today's just one of those days that's, it's kind of boring and it's gonna suck.
But you know what?
We're gonna get through it because tomorrow we're gonna be right back with, and my daughter came home and that dude Jean, that resonated so much with her, like she sat down and told me, and for a 14-year-old girl to be like, dad, listen to this about school.
And it doesn't have to do with recess or lunchtime.
She like.
Kids appreciate that.
They're lie detectors, man.
If we think something's boring and we're trying to masquerade, like, hey, this is exciting.
They see it.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
No, ab Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, you know, one of the things, one of the other things you talked about at Atlas, and I know you talked about in other things, is you talk about the relationship building.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: And you talk about it, well, you talk a lot about it in another book but, what are, how we hear about relationship building all the time.
And I talk about relate when I talk about it with like with coaches, instructional coaches who I train.
I say this is not a relationship about being friends.
This is more of a professional relationship.
This is like, like I tell 'em like, like, you have a favorite doctor.
Why do you like that doctor?
You like that doctor because it's competent.
They listen to you.
They're gonna give you advice for you.
Just like you, just like what you said at the beginning of this conversation, you're gonna ask a teacher, what are you best at?
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so, so that's the, so, so when you're talking about student teacher relationships, what are you talking about and how do you.
Work with teachers on that.
Weston: We're talking about a lot of the same things, right?
Which is step number one and rule number one, like when we're talking about building relationships, we're not talking about friendships.
Those are two very different things, and I. And we've all seen it, like a lot of our newer teachers sort of confuse the two, right?
They either adopt the don't smile before Christmas garbage piece of feedback that's been passed around for ages, or they adopt the like, oh, I'm gonna be like the cool guy, cool girl, teacher, like, we're friends.
We're to no.
No.
Like we're not friends with kids.
We build relationships with kids.
And so when I'm talking about building relationships again, so, so much of my work is really about distillation, distilling big concepts down to actionable steps.
And so, you know, relationships is another one of those words that gets thrown around all the time.
And so like, I'm really interested in like, okay, what are the habituated behaviors of people who are awesome?
Building relationships.
And I try to get down to like, okay let's take a look at some of these behaviors things like trust, right?
That's a cornerstone for any healthy relationship.
Things like clarity, right?
Thing like things like teacher expectations, student self expectations, right?
So like, I wanna distill down to the nitty gritty of the behaviors and say like, okay, let's take one of those habits, right?
Let's take a habit like trust.
Trust is a cornerstone for any healthy relationship.
So, I talk to teachers all the time and I'm just like, okay.
We, like, I ask 'em like, Hey, have you had conversations about trust with your kids?
Gene?
What do you think?
Everyone said, yes, of course.
And I said, and then my next question is always like, okay, what is trust?
Dude, that, that shouldn't like that.
It shouldn't be a hard question.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah,
Weston: but it's real.
What, like what do you mean what is trust?
That's a, it's a simple question.
It's a word you keep saying over and over what is trust and so like, let's understand what it is.
Trust is believable behavior over time.
And it's like, okay, how do you build trust?
And I usually get like a long list of answers.
Okay.
How do you break trust?
Another long list of answers.
No simplify.
There are two ways to build trust.
You say you're gonna do something and you do it, or you say you're not gonna do something and you don't.
That's how you build it.
Guess how you break it?
You say you're gonna do something and you don't, or you say you're not gonna do something and you do it.
Trust is that simple.
Right?
Stop.
Stop overcomplicating this for kids.
And then we have to show up as trustworthy in the classroom.
And we have to in those moments where our kids don't demonstrate that they're trustworthy.
We have to default back to like, Hey, remember what is trust believable behavior over time?
And we have to be water on a rock and drip away and wear away at negative behaviors.
And then constantly redirect towards more positive behaviors.
And that's how you build trust.
Gene Tavernetti: Let me see.
I disagree with you slightly.
Weston: Okay, good.
Let's talk about it.
Gene Tavernetti: I would say with today's kids.
Redirect.
Weston: Yeah.
Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: It's, you know, there is a palpable difference, you know, in the attention of kids.
And we have developed systems.
To really degrade that trust.
I mean, you know, you talk about having, you know, operationalizing these words, you know, how about high expectations for kids?
I mean, one of the high, you know, to me, you operationalize it.
Being trustworthy.
I hadn't said this before, but now I'm gonna use that.
Yeah.
And I'll give you credit for a while and then I'll forget to give you credit.
You, you
Weston: don't have to put it in your back pocket.
Claim it as your own,
Gene Tavernetti: you know, you know, but that idea is, the high expectation is you know, I teachers say, oh man, my afterschool class, they just, I can't get 'em to do anything.
You know, they're just different.
And so the response is, well, what are you doing different?
You know, how are you know, if you, great
Weston: question.
Gene Tavernetti: You know who they are.
How are you going to impact that?
Because you know what?
That, that, that's, I don't know what the other parts of the relationship building is, but one of them has to be that I believe in you Weston, and you know what?
I'm not gonna let you do this.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, I, you can't go to the restroom for 15 minutes.
Yeah, because I bet you're doing that six times a day.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: You know?
Weston: And guess what I'm gonna notice when other people pretend like they don't.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so any Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Weston: Our kids are, they are different.
They are different.
And I like that you keep using the word different.
'cause I, I don't wanna say worse, they're not worse.
They're just, every generation of kids has been different than the ones before.
But our, we're, our kids are experiencing this moment, unlike anything we've experienced where they wake up.
And the moment, from the moment they wake up for a lot of them till they go to bed, they are fed a constant stream of dopamine from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep, and then they jump into our classrooms and cell phones go away and there is no dopamine and the crash is hard.
And we chalk that up to attention and it's like, hey I don't think it's as much attention deficit as it is withdrawal.
Is what we're experiencing.
And that, and I don't think enough people are talking about that.
Like, our kids aren't suffering from attention issues.
They're suffering from a withdrawal issue from the constant stream of dopamine they've received up until the point they walked into your classroom.
Gene Tavernetti: So you're doing a nice segue into another little thing that you're doing that I've seen you on LinkedIn, the ten second.
Ten second.
What are, what do they call?
I'm not saying
Weston: 10, 10, 10 second truths.
I can't believe how much these have blown up.
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, well, and what made me think of it I wanted to talk to you about 'em but you just had one about childhood We haven't modernized childhood.
We've domesticated it.
Weston: Yeah.
I stand by that.
That's the ten second truth.
I stand by that one.
Yeah,
Gene Tavernetti: you can you expand on that a little bit.
Weston: Kids have a modernized experience of childhood for sure, but we as adults have not modernized the childhood experience.
We've domesticated it.
We have put like a lot of parents have put.
Incredibly tight boundaries around childhood where the idea of free play is a thing in the past, completely a thing In the past, I'm sure I had a childhood, much like you did Jean.
I don't know about you, but like, literally summer would roll around, and I remember vividly my dad, like I, I had a few days of summer break where I had slept in, done nothing, laid around the house.
And my dad came in one morning and literally opened my door and he was like, you're out.
And I think I was maybe 13 years old, right?
He's like, you're out.
And I was like, what do you mean I'm out?
He's like, go outside, go do something.
I was like, where am I gonna go?
He goes, I don't care.
Just not here.
I said, when do I need to come back?
And he was like, street lights, come on, you come back home.
And I just left.
Nobody knew where I was.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: Nobody asked where I was.
I went over to my buddies.
I played backyard football.
It was the best summer of my life.
Best summer of my life.
'cause my dad kicked me out, said, I don't care where you go, just go do something.
Like kids don't have that experience.
They have played dates, they have club soccer and baseball and club volleyball.
Like every moment of their day is structured.
And so that's what I mean by the domestication of childhood.
There's.
For so many of our kids, there's almost nothing free and open to it.
And any time that is free and open is spent either here on the phone or here two hands in front of video games.
Like, that's what I mean when I say we've domesticated childhood.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, when I saw that, I'm trying to, I had a feeling that's what you were talking about, kind of like what John Haight talks about, you know, in, in in his book.
That we're protecting our kids.
And then, but the use of the word domesticated, it reminds me of my wife and I have two cats
Weston: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: That do not go outside, you know, and I bet they would love to go outside, but you know why they don't go outside.
We're afraid.
Weston: That's,
Gene Tavernetti: we're a, we're afraid it's the parents who are afraid.
Yes.
And unless the student.
The student.
I always think of Susan, you know, unless the kid has the opportunity to face some small fear to get over it, then we're gonna transfer that fear onto them.
And we're gonna continue to have what you talked about, because, even though that was your experience with your dad, I bet you still don't give quite as much freedom to your kids as you had.
Weston: Of course I don't.
Of course I don't.
And it's, and the irony of that is not lost on me, Jean, as I'm sitting here.
It's just like, I literally just told you like, it was the best summer of my life.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: But I will tell you this, like.
The moments when my son and my D like I also lucked out a little bit.
Like we live in an awesome neighborhood and my daughter's 14, her best friend Brooklyn lives right down the street and there's so many times where like our front door will open and I just hear, I'm going to Brooklyns.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: So happy.
Gene Tavernetti: Forget your phone.
Weston: Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Don't, yeah.
I'm gonna check on you on Life 360.
You're not gonna know.
I'm checking all the time.
Good.
I'm gonna check to make sure you're safe, but I. But I love that, you know?
Yes.
Yeah.
My 16-year-old son like jumps in his car and he and his boys are going up to in and out, and then they're gonna go up to the field and they're gonna throw, and they're gonna play football.
Great.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: Yeah.
Awesome.
Do it.
Do it every day.
I want that for you.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, I love that we're kind of talking about some of this stuff because again, I told you where I began to be a fan, but as I began to look at you, you know, you have a podcast with your wife.
And you take on a lot of these issues, you know, that, that are just kind of, just general life issues and it is very entertaining.
And one of them is getting back to teachers being funny, is can you teach someone to be funny?
What did you guys conclude?
Weston: Molly answered this so quickly.
She said no.
Absolutely not.
But also, full disclosure, we have a lot of disagreements in our fa.
This is, I would say, a biweekly argument that we have at our dinner table, gene, where we will sit and the four of us will argue about who the funniest person in our family is.
Right.
My wife claims it's her.
She's a hundred percent wrong about that.
It's my daughter, Charlotte.
She is the funniest person in our family by far.
But then I am undoubtedly the second funniest person.
Okay.
And nobody in my family agrees with that jean, which I'm just like, Hey, people pay me to show up.
And tell funny stories, like in my keynote, right, right.
I've had people come up and yell at me after a keynote, like, Hey I had this woman in Texas come up and she said, I drove four hours to hear you tell the bull riding story.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, it's not in this keynote.
So like, oh.
And I'm like, did, has that happened to any of you at this table?
And they're like, oh, whatever, dad.
You know, 'cause I'm dad, I don't know anything.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Weston: And so like we, we have that argument all the time.
And I don't, I think you can teach people to be funnier.
I don't think, I don't think you can teach funny, like super funny, like
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah,
Weston: I'm talking like Nate Bartzi, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Adam Sandler.
Funny.
Like I don't think you can teach that.
Yeah.
I think some people just have that.
I think you can teach people to be funnier.
Gene Tavernetti: I think so.
I think so too.
And it is.
But it's so, like, so many things they have to want it.
They have to want it.
Because part of it is an awareness.
Yeah.
It's like what you just, you, you just said all the thousands of classrooms that you went in to discover what makes this teacher engaging.
You gotta do the same thing with comedy, with being funny.
Yes.
And not even comedy just having a sense of humor.
Okay.
Weston: Yeah.
I could geek out about this topic all day, like just talking about comedy.
Like I, I love listening to standup comedians, their podcasts.
Like I have watched comedians in cars getting coffee over and over.
Oh, yeah.
Because I'm so interested in how all of those people talk about their process, and I'm interested in it from an educator's lens.
'cause I do I'm curious if you agree with me on this or not.
I think there's something inherently performative.
About the work that we do as classroom teachers with kids.
Would you agree or disagree?
Gene Tavernetti: I'd agree.
I'd agree.
At a baseline level.
That's the baseline.
Yes.
There is, you know, and an anecdote to kind of.
Prove that.
Well, one anecdote doesn't prove it, end of one is not enough.
But but you probably had this experience too.
I'll be training teachers and there's this little wallflower.
You know, in the training and you thinking, God, am I getting through to this person?
You know, taking notes and then you go into the classroom and they just explode.
Yes.
I mean, they're the, they're just a huge personality.
Yeah.
And I don't know which one is which.
You know, I don't know which one is the real one, but actually as I said that I should say they're both real.
That's who they are.
This is who they are as an individual.
This is their teacher persona.
But it's not real.
That's just who they are.
Weston: I know, but I'm always confused by people like that.
Are you?
'cause I I'm not like that.
Who people see when I'm on the road is exactly who I am.
Right?
Like, I'm dis enthusiastic.
I'm this obnoxious about it.
Like, I'm sorry.
It's how I wake up in the morning.
Okay.
Like I don't have that sort of on and off switch.
So I'm mesmerized by people like that.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
No I'm like you I'm like you, you know, I would love to talk about being funny, but I should probably be talking to your wife because you're only number two in the family.
How dare you?
You know, you know it, it's funny you talk about, you know, you're just dad.
I have a daughter.
She'll be 38 this year.
And, we were down visiting and she had one of her friends at her house and she's in Southern California and her friend I hadn't met before had been you know, a college soccer player.
She's an actress.
She's been in stuff that we have seen her in.
And I'm just real curious.
I'm just asking her questions and my and I'm having this great conversation with this friend of my daughter.
And my daughter turns to her and said.
I should have warned you about him.
Weston: that's a universal rite of passage and becoming a dad is you just apparently just become immediately embarrassing to your children.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Okay.
So you've seen lots of teachers.
Okay.
you've observed lots of classrooms, and you gathered all this information about who's effective and how they are able to maintain attention.
And then you wrote a book, a more general book about performance.
Are these teachers a subset?
A. Of the high performers or what did you discover?
What's in your book about high performers?
Weston: Yeah.
Ab
Gene Tavernetti: what did you find?
Weston: Absolutely.
Like obviously the education is my world.
It's my wheelhouse.
So there's tons of relevance for educators and there's references to educators in this book.
But I was, you know, like I, gene, all I ever wanted to do, like I wanted to teach high school social studies and I wanted to coach high school football when I entered into this profession.
That's what I wanted.
Quite frankly, it's, there's a lot of months where I've been traveling too much and I threatened my wife.
I'm gonna go back and do that.
Right?
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, no I'm just, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
I'm just laughing because I always say I'm that cliche as well.
I just wanted to coach football, but I had to teach social studies.
Weston: Right?
Yeah.
It's like, that's all I, that's what I wanted to do.
It was the beginning and end of every ambition that I had in education.
And now for a long time I've had this really weird and wonderful job where I get to travel around and I get to meet and talk to incredible people.
And I get to speak at conferences where other really, you know, high achieving people are speaking.
And so I've gotten to have really interesting conversations and build really interesting friendships and relationships with high achievers from almost every category.
And I was just like.
I started thinking not just through my educator brain, but also as a parent and as a coach as a person who runs my own business.
It's just like, okay, as an educator, as a business person, as a father, as a spouse, as a coach, like there are things that I'm noticing about all of these people that are universally applicable.
And if we can just the hidden work is really just about like eliminating the pitfalls.
That under achievers default to over and over, and instead redirecting towards the behavior patterns of high achievers.
And I'll just list 'em out real quick.
So, if you look at the habituated behaviors of underachievers and low performers, you'll find over and over that in the midst of adversity, they default to these four things.
They default to things like blame, excuses, self-deception, and the propensity to give up.
They, like low performers will default to one or more of these behavior patterns over and over.
But if you look at top performers, again, it's not talent that separates the two, it's the consistency to default to instead of blame.
They default to ownership instead of excuses.
They are highly focused on solutions.
They have a profound solution mindset.
Instead of giving up, they are exemplars of what grit looks like, sounds like, and feels like.
And instead of self-deception, like they tell themselves the truth about who they are, the work they put in and what they're capable of.
And it's just like, man, as, and again, if look everywhere.
People who are listening to this like, oh, if things aren't going well in my marriage, guess what you'll find?
You'll find tons of blame, excuses, self-deception, and people who are giving up, right?
If you look at businesses who are under that are underperforming, if you look at athletes that are underperforming, if you look at students and teachers who are underperforming, if you look at business leaders who are under, like, you'll find these things to be universally true.
And the good news is all of these things are fixable.
They're all fixable, and they cost us nothing.
It costs us nothing to adopt a new set of behaviors that leads to improved performance.
And that's the thing I'm super passionate about right now.
Gene Tavernetti: I can see how that's impossible not to bring that message to schools
Weston: as well.
Yeah.
It's, its impossible.
It's impossible.
I like, and that's, I don't.
I don't write books 'cause I want to, or I care about selling books.
I write books because it's like something worms, its way into my brain and it's like, I can't sit on this and just keep it for myself and my kids and the kids that I coach.
And there's the students that I get to see, like, I, I have to share this.
'cause I think it can help so many people.
Gene Tavernetti: Absolutely.
That sounds great.
Yeah.
Well, I can ask you questions all day.
Wes, do you have any questions for me?
Weston: I do.
And it actually came up I have been trying to glean as much expertise and wisdom as I can.
You mentioned that you have a 38-year-old daughter, correct?
Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Weston: All right.
I've got a, I've got a 16-year-old son.
I've got a 14-year-old daughter, and I am staring down the barrel of what feels like an existential crisis.
And forgive me, I'm sure you wanted more of like an education type question, but I'm gonna take this opportunity to be selfish if it's okay.
Gene Tavernetti: Sure,
Weston: I want to know, you know, 'cause my wife and I will lay awake at nights and be like, man, we've got two more summers left with our son.
And then he's off.
He's gotta go live his own life and we have four more left with our daughter.
I wanna know from you, like, you know, with the benefit of hindsight and wisdom, what are the things that we should be doing more of?
And what are the things that we should be doing less of?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, the number one thing you should be doing more of is finding a better person to ask for advice.
You know, because I can't remember who it was, but you know, I took several, I took quite a few psychology courses and I remember somebody saying, by the time a kid gets to be 12 or 13 years old, you've done all you can.
And then it is, you know, whatever you have instilled at that point, all your values and all the lessons it's up to them, you know?
And because all the good things that my daughter has done, my wife and I will say, how, where did that come from?
I mean, because that's not us, you know?
And
Weston: it's man, but it, I think you're sandbagging a little there.
If I'm being like that.
Ha there's profound foundational elements of that have to come from you and your wife.
They have to.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I appreciate you saying that.
I'll let my daughter know next time I see her, but but you know, I, I don't have advice.
I mean, you know, I remember being at a conference and after, you know, all the speakers we're sitting around a table having dinner and everybody's telling horror stories about my 24-year-old son.
I can't get him out of the house.
So I told him, I'll tell you what, I'll give you six months.
I'll give you six months and then you gotta find your own place.
But up until then, you know, I will take care of you.
And so.
It gets toward the six months and the dad says, well, did you get a place?
He goes, oh yeah, I got a place two months ago, but I was to save the money that you sent.
And I mean, and he just like went around the table like that.
And I'm thinking, I am.
So, you know, we were so blessed my daughter couldn't wait to get out of the house.
Yeah.
You know, and again, why?
I don't know.
But that's the way I was.
I mean, I couldn't.
You know, I couldn't wait to get out.
Yeah.
I was too.
So, so maybe that, you know, maybe that message got out, but boy I wish, you know, I'm just gonna tell you have faith in the job that you've done and, you know, I think you'll, I think you'll see the fruits of that as you watch your kids thrive.
Weston: I hope so, man.
And you know what I think you gave me a good piece of advice.
You know, like by 1314, like the bulk of the work is done and I think I probably need to have transitioned a long time ago from, from a author authoritative parent to facilitator and guide.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, just think of the anecdote you shared about your 14-year-old daughter talking about what she saw at school.
Look at, look there, there's an example.
There's a great example.
Weston: Well, and the good news is I've had plenty of conversations with my own kids where I've had to walk upstairs to their rooms and be like, Hey, I really screwed that up.
I'm really sorry.
And those won't be the last ones.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that.
You know what, Wes, it was joy talking to you.
It was a pleasure meeting you and right back at you, my
Weston: friend Jean.
Thanks so much.
Gene Tavernetti: Hey, my pleasure.
And any last words for teachers?
Any big something funny or motivational?
You don't save your bull riding story?
Weston: Yeah, I'll save the bull riding story.
I'll just message I'm giving teachers around the country right now and I'm I want every.
Not just teacher, but every educator in every level of profession to hear, like I'm begging you, like stop lighting yourselves on fire to keep everyone else warm.
It's the thing that we do in our profession all the time.
We light ourselves on fire to keep our kids warm, our communities warm.
And the fact of the matter is like we have to get better at finding the balance in this work right there.
We have to give ourselves and each other time and permission to close the lid, step away.
Spend time with people we love.
Spend time with people who love us.
Tell teachers, spend time with your own kids.
'cause we can't keep asking them to take care of other people's children and not giving them the time, grace, space and permission to take care of their own.
Gene Tavernetti: Amen.
Weston: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: Thank you Weston.
We'll talk soon.
Weston: Sounds good.
Thanks brother.
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.