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So another counsel Through God's Attributes episode. And this round, we're going to be talking to Michael about his entry on Holy. God is Holy. You actually titled it Embracing Holy Perfection. So Michael, what made you select God as holy as the attribute to write about?

You wrote about God is faithful too. So you had two entries, but this one specifically, why was it important to communicate about God's holiness?

Yeah. I wrote about God's holiness because holiness tends to be one of those things that are the most difficult to talk about. And it's oftentimes associated with God's sort of wrathfulness, that he's a holy and righteous. So there's always that sort of leading God as a holy and righteous God that we have sinned against, which is obviously true, and we're gonna see that in the text, but it's also more than that. It's also holy in his redemptive plan.

It's holy in that when we can't give any more, he can because he's transcendent, like in another one of your podcasts that we did in terms of God's presence and power and everything that His holiness is also wholly redemptive. It's when we can't give, He continues to give, right? He's without end. So I wanted to try to encapsulate that a little more fully as far as our consolees are concerned, because oftentimes again, it's usually associated with sin and that tends to be the one thing that we focus on.

So how would you really define holy?

Holy is having to do with God's character, His nature and His actions that are wholly separate from his creation. Right? So he's creator. And and the other submission that I did on God's faithfulness from Exodus and focusing on his covenant name. But usually, Elohim is Hebrew for God, and more often than not associated with God as Creator.

And so it's like in this, holy is the Lord of hosts. And so now we're getting into covenant God, Yahweh, holy. And so holy has to do with, again, His nature, His character and His actions completely separate from His creation.

Yeah, that's good. We talked about, like you said, you mentioned earlier, where I did one on God's omnipresent. And that's considering one of God's incommunicable attributes, which what that means is only God is. This is the things about God that is to be worshiped. And then we have his communicable attributes, which is what God is, but what we can be, it's something that we are to reflect.

So when you think of holy, I always define it as being set apart. And so holy is actually a communicable attribute, right? But one we can only have because of our salvation through Jesus Christ.

Yeah, that's really good. And actually, your point about holiness being a communicable atrobe. And we'll get into this when the counseling through Romans gets in and one the entries there for that was that we're saints, right? And that's associated with the idea of being holy. We're set apart, we're the called out ones.

In that sense, is good for us to recognize that. But this particular text, embracing holy perfection is, again, when we're in the presence of the Lord, it is an awe inspiring and it's awful in the sense that it's overwhelming. We know that when we experience God's conviction in our hearts, when we experience His compassion in the way that He loves us. So that was really the goal for this particular entry here. The idea comes from the text Isaiah six:three and five, and they were calling out to one another, holy is the Lord of hosts.

All of the earth is full of his glory. Woe is me for I am ruined because I am a man of unclean lips dwelling among a people of unclean lips. For my eyes have seen the king, the Lord of hosts.

So that's actually skipping verse four, and it is the English Shanna version. I always like to just share that. But here Isaiah has experienced God's holiness in a transformative way. What does this encounter lead him to?

Yeah. So the encounter is really the goal of this entry for our consolees, right? It's central to his nature, his character and his actions, like I mentioned earlier. It reveals his absolute moral purity, right? It's complete separation from sin and exalted position above all creation.

And so in this particular text, Isaiah six:three-seven, Isaiah experiences God's holiness in a transformative way. And so in that transformative way, the vision that the Lord is seated on his throne, he's surrounded by the Seraphim, he's seeing all of these things. And he's hearing the Seraphim proclaiming, Holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. And really what it is, it's his repentance, his cleansing from sin in a renewed sense, really, of his mission. So for believers, understanding and responding to God's holiness shapes our worship.

It deepens our relationship with Him and calls us to live lives of purity and surrender. So that's more or less the summary and goal of us engaging with this idea and encountering the fact that the Lord is holy. And so in session, what I would focus on and obviously goal would to be reading this text with the counselee, and I would probably have them do the reading, and then asking them some of the some of these questions. So God's holiness, and just breaking it down in these three sections, God's holiness and his nature, his character and his actions. And really God's holiness and his nature is the repeated holy holy.

It's revealing God's just triune nature. It's revealing just everything that He is. So the repeated word holy is really, again, just engaging with His nature.

And really that's only shown twice in Scripture. So it's only here and in Revelation four:eight where we see the tri holy in the Bible, which I think is nice to know.

I have a couple of texts that you could go to with the counseling to continue to expound on this idea of God's holiness according to his nature, and how this is demonstrated, how consistent it is throughout redemptive history as he's worked with his people. And then secondly, God's holiness in his character, and how God does respond in verse five. So for example, woe is me for I am lost for I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. What are proper response for seeing the holiness of God? And then it causes a response in us.

So in going to Revelation, can you flip to Revelation eight?

It says, and the four living creatures, each of them with six wings are full of eyes all around and within and day and night, they never ceased to say, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is to come.

So we read that at the end before the Lord consummates all things, you see those creatures yet again proclaiming the very same thing. And then Exodus fifteen eleven, similarly, who is like you, oh Lord, among the gods? Who is like you majestic in holiness, awesome and glorious deeds, doing wonders? Again, God's people are always in awe of who he is, what he does, his nature, his character. And for example, first John one five hits on that same thing in terms of God's holiness and how it shapes his love, justice and mercy.

Because again, all of this culminates in the fact that we are being made into Christ likeness, right? We are being made into the image of Christ. And all of those characteristics, that holy nature, that holy character, and those holy actions are all part of the process of being conformed into the image of Christ. And so this is very important for us to understand in connecting these dots. And then God's holiness and his actions.

Again, the Seraphim are cleansing Isaiah's lips with a burning coal and it teaches us about God's redemptive holiness. This is what I was talking about at the onset of the episode here is that oftentimes we tend to just focus on God's holiness being holy and his wrath, but his holiness is redemptive in nature. It's the greatest story ever told. His redemption, how he can save a wretch like us, right, which is captured in so many of our worship songs. When we're worshiping, it's just so difficult for us to understand.

And so we cry out, holy is the Lord God Almighty. So obviously we see with Isaiah, there is that initial response of repentance. But in that response of repentance, it's also given, it gives him a sense of renewal and a sense of a mission to focus on, like God using him, cleansing him and using him for a purpose, setting Isaiah apart now, right, as God's prophet. And so as God's people, to your point earlier, He's holy, therefore we must be holy. We know we're not holy like He's holy in the same sense.

It's more analogical in that sense, right? We can't be holy in the sense that he's holy because he's God, he's creator. But we can, to your point, in those communicable attributes, we can demonstrate holiness and being set apart in in our character in the way that we act. And because we're being made in the image of Christ, our nature is now like his nature. That Peter makes that point in second Peter, chapter one, we've been given everything pertaining to life and godliness, right?

That we have this nature that's like Christ, but it's not fully realized until the end. But today, we are set apart. We are holy ones of Him. So that redemptive piece of God's holiness is very important for us to grasp God's people. Any thoughts on that?

I'm just reminded with the passages that you selected, the repetition of holy is just communicating the uniqueness of this is about God. And I immediately think of songs, worship songs that we sing that is speaking of that holy, there's no there's no one like you and the one that you mentioned. And so really when I think of holy, I just immediately think of worship. I don't know. I just connect that attribute with just that reverence and all that you've mentioned too.

But sometimes where I've had early on when our kids were growing up of them asking, why do people raise their hands in worship? And as I was too, even as a mom. And this is one of those kind of times where it's for me, when you're worshiping the Lord, you're just literally in awe. It's just a sign of praise and surrender and reverence in my mind. And so I don't do it for every song.

And sometimes I don't even do it every Sunday, but it's on particular songs that hit you in a particular way on a particular Sunday, whether it's the week or the morning or whatever, that you just connect to the Lord in a way of the truth of what holy means. Like it's not just a word that we're singing. It's the reality of what that word means for us. And I think that's one of the biggest things that in a counseling session, or just even obviously this whole podcast is all about like biblical counseling. But in reality, we have these conversations daily with friends and in our community groups and just living life with people.

That's one of the things that you would want to communicate to them, like, and have them walk away from is realizing this truth about God. Like this is something that we get to grab ahold of and live out every day. And obviously, as I'm saying this out loud, being convicted in the moment of how often the things that I'm currently struggling with that I'm not doing what I'm literally communicating right now. And there's a part here on your entry where you mentioned Hebrews twelve ten, which is talking about that discipline aspect of it. So here's what the text says.

It says for they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good that we may share his holiness. So the aspect of we're growing in our spiritual maturity, right? We're growing in our Christ likeness in that holiness, but obviously that's something that will not be made in perfection until we're in our glorified state. There is discipline conviction. Those are things that aren't ugly words that we should ignore or run away from, but ones that we should fully brace in a way of what is the Holy Spirit telling us in that moment and how do we then turn our eyes to the Lord?

I think that's the tension of God's holiness for us. Because to your point in reading Hebrews chapter 12, verse 10, right? Even the author of Hebrews is using it as an analogy to try to capture the idea because parentally, the parent is trying to raise up the kid, but the parent is just as much guilty of sin as the child who's wound up with folly as Proverbs would talk about. And so that's the goal as a parent is to raise them up so that they don't make those same mistakes. And so they have to discipline them.

They have to bring a level of pain in order to bring correction and character and all of these things. And so the author of Hebrews uses that as an example, because as God's children, he has to make us holy. We're declared holy because of what Christ did, but then he makes us holy. And that's the beautiful picture about this with Isaiah when the Seraphim come and touch his lips and his mouth, in other words of just removing that guilt, right, and cleansing him. In the same way Christ had to cleanse us.

And so we're declared, and then he gives us the mission, right, and then we're in Christ. And so there's so much correlation to what the prophet Isaiah is experiencing in this encounter with God and seeing him as holy. But that's the beautiful reality of us under the new covenant and seeing how the author of Hebrews makes that same connection with God's holiness that we have to, we have to be made holy. And that's where all of a sudden our suffering has purpose, right? So now we can really start beginning in the counseling room, connecting suffering and holiness and love and character and all of these things that man, now we begin to see a lot more purpose in the things that we're going through.

All of a sudden, this highly theological idea of God's holiness actually is very concrete and street level in our lives and in our hearts. So that's what I was hopefully trying to capture.

I think that's good. I think that's always a real good goal for us as biblical counselors is to bring it what you said, bring down to kind of the street level. And I think you did a good job like in the in session aspect, like you're saying, hey, God's holiness in his nature, his character, his actions is what we find. But then within that, give us some like real direct and solid questions that we can ask in the counseling room as we're wrestling with this text together. What does that really mean to them?

What is God's holiness and what does it mean to be morally perfect and without sin and how does God's holiness both convict us of sin and provide a way of atonement? And then you take us from that reading wrestling together, but then say, okay, how do we now reflect on the thought of just asking them directly? Have you experienced awe or reference for God's holiness in your life? And see what that looks like. That's pretty much them communicating their view of God.

Where's God in the midst of what's going on? And so that question, that open ended question could really take us on a whole nother discussion or really allow us to engage and connect with our counselee in a way of how are they viewing God right now in this. And then, so then you move them to that after session assignment. And so tell us a little bit about what you think are some kind of things and ways that they can continue to think on God's holiness outside of the counseling session.

Yeah, that's good. And so the after session assignment here for the counselee is they're called a reverence and worship. The nature of His holiness invites us to exalt Him above all else, cultivating a life of awe and surrender. So the character of God's holiness through His perfection is what's convicting us, right? It's convicting us.

It's also a source of cleansing and grace. And we see that in the text itself. We see what happened with Isaiah. It came with a response of repentance and cleansing, and then grace. The grace is demonstrated by sending him when the Lord says, you know, who shall go?

You know, who will go for us? And then Isaiah, obviously, a result of being clean and cleansed and that feeling of redeemed and grace and confidence in the Lord, he sent me. Send me Lord, I'll go. So that's the idea because oftentimes our council leaves when think about His holiness, do, we feel guilt, we feel shame. The last thing we want to do is go and do anything for Him because we feel unworthy.

But that's the beautiful thing about His grace, which is why His holiness is redemptive in that sense is because in one sense, it really doesn't doesn't make a lot of sense for us. It's like, why is he using me? Why does he continually love me like this? It doesn't make any sense. But then he opens our eyes to see his mission and his purpose in his heart and redemption and for the world and so on and so forth.

And so that gives us that extra mission. So the idea is to get consolees to think along those lines to encourage them. And then again, to your point, there's a lot of other scripture verses and a really good example and exercise in counseling with these after session assignments is to really give them more scripture that covers the same thing you covered in session. Because the goal is always try to show the counselees that we're not just focusing on one verse and it's here's a verse feel better. It's like this is consistent with God's message, his word, and our purpose and our goals.

And so it's just it's an encouraging thing. And so anyway, I've given many scripture verses around this idea of holiness, what that looks like from in the Old Testament, New Testament throughout scripture, and then the idea of reflecting what it means to be holy. So that was more or less how this shaped out. And yeah, so there's a prayer assignment after as well. And, you know, the goal here is to, okay, now that I've read that and reflect on that, let me pray that back to the Lord.

Actually, me give that back to the Lord. And then obviously closing with an encouragement on that. So yeah.

I love that you included the prayer assignment. I think that's really good. But let me just randomly back up, ask you off the book pages type question is, you know what I'm sitting here thinking as we're having the conversation on holy, obviously it just feels so unattainable. And so then that's what I immediately think of. And then I think obviously we have the Holy Spirit that's helping us in that, but I don't think I often pray.

That's part of my prayer of I'm praying for humility and compassion and kindness in these things that I'm finding in Colossians three, but he also does, Paul does say holy and beloved. You're the chosen. So when you think about us as saints striving for holiness, it feels so untainable. Do you think people are going to struggle with that being considered like the law? Like we're trying to be perfect.

How like people can sometimes even in our Christian circle, it's like we could fill the holier than thou type people where we're always bringing it back and people are just relax a little bit type of thing.

Do you

know what I mean? I don't know if I really have a direct question, but I'm trying to see if since we're married, you can pull for what I'm trying to say. Like we don't want it to, like, we're pushing people like the legalism type standpoint, but the goal is we are trying to strive to be more like Christ. And so we won't be perfect, but we are made perfect in Him. I don't know.

So wrestle with that with me. What are your thoughts?

I do think that is something that actually oftentimes does happen in the counseling room. We're actually going back to just earlier when we were recording with Jeremy and for our counseling through Romans, when he's looking at Romans chapter three, is we can begin to feel like we need to perform and we feel like hypocrites, or we begin to feel like we're being legalistic in some sort of way. And I think that's where it's helpful to realize that there is a difference between effort and earning. And I think that's a huge distinction that's very helpful when we're having these conversations with consolees, because we're not trying to be holy to earn God's favor. We're holy because that's who we are.

It's been pronounced upon us. And now we have the spirit changing us. So this idea of holiness is something that I begin to desire, right? And it's what is, that's where it can get, it can feel wonky when we're in session and the counsellee, let's say we're three sessions in and the counsellee is like, I'm trying, I don't know what's happening, but it's three steps forward and eight steps back and you and you question, was that really me or was that good or and it can be difficult. But it's striving for that, which is why I love what the writer of Hebrews says in chapter 12, is that Christ even submitted himself to that so that He could run the race that was before Him.

Do you still have it open to Hebrews chapter 12? Yeah. The first five verses we read that.

Oh, the first five verses? Yeah. Okay. So it says, therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin, which clings so closely and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Verse three, consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself so that you may not grow weary or faint hearted.

Do want me to keep going? Verse four. Yeah. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, not be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son whom he receives. That was through verse six.

Yeah, think about that for a second. So Jesus submitted himself under the law, Him who knew no sin became sin on our behalf, experienced all of that, humbled himself to the point of death, so that he could basically purchase the joy that was set before him, namely his people. So he already ran the race for us of holiness. And so when we come to him, this idea of obtaining holiness, it's not about our working for holiness. We've already we already have holiness.

It's almost like I have health. So with health, I can gain muscle, I can be quote unquote healthier, right? But I have to have health, a general state of health in order to become healthier. And I would say spiritually speaking, it's the same idea where Christ purchased that for us. He gave us that spiritual health that we need to be holy in terms of our character.

Going back to Isaiah again, that we looked at God's nature, his character and his actions. The truth is us becoming Christians is following those three categories of holiness. Right? Like, nature is new creations in Christ. Christ was that, died that, lived under that, purchased that.

And so now that's what we have by the spirit, and the spirit is the one who's developing that character in us. That same character that Christ demonstrated and exhibited in his earthly ministry, then he purchased that. It's ours in him, and it's applied by the spirit. And then so our actions begin to change. So our character and actions begin to model and demonstrate the nature, which is our new nature.

And so he purchased that. So it's a pretty heavy thing to think about. But when we take the time going back to the point of the exercise of reflecting and praying and doing those things, it is difficult. And sometimes it can feel like brow beating or is this my getting legalistic and all of that. It can feel like that at times, but it's not it's worth the toil.

It is worth the toil. It's worth being able to have those conversations with her counselors. Like I think that's another thing I love about being biblical counselor is I don't have to put on a show. I'm not a professional. I don't have to I can now obviously I don't want to dominate the conversation and make it about me, but I can in compassion and empathy share that struggle with them to let them know I get it.

It's not like we're not sitting in the chair like somehow we've arrived. So when we're talking to our counselees, it's not like we're taking

Like the we're perfect.

Yeah, so we don't take that seat. That's not our heart. That's not

our focus.

But that's, I could go on, I feel like sometimes forever on that stuff. No.

That's the I I really appreciate that. You kinda allow me just to wing a question as far as what my thought was after reading the text with us. And technically this is almost like our home conversations. We really talk about this stuff all the time.

Welcome to our living room I

love that I can just lean on your intelligence and your mind and ask you random questions like that. But one of the things that might take away here after talking to you, Michael, about this entry that you wrote is just the reminder that discipline aspects. So we don't want to be disciplined. We hated it as a kid. We don't love it when we're an adult.

And sometimes we might not even know that we're being disciplined, but I like the reminder that you, in your entry, you took us to Hebrews that we were able to read God's word here. What he says that the discipline is technically a part of the process where the believer is fitted to share in God's holiness. That's what it says here in my study Bible. And then verse 11, for the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, later it yields a peaceful fruit of righteous to those who have been trained by it. And so I guess my encouragement, my final word of encouragement would be to just as a biblical counselor and to those that were counseling, how are we not tiptoeing around that, that reality that we are to strive for holiness, to share in God's holiness before we are obviously in our perfected glorified body.

How are we praying for it? How are we praying as Paul modeled to us, praying for our brothers and sisters, our church, our conversations, all these things of, Lord, may my words be fitting to you. May may I not only strive for holiness, but encourage my brothers and sisters to too. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

Anyway, any final thoughts for you as we wrap up this?

Yeah. Just the last word on this is just, again, for you counselors out there, going through these things and using these resources, which is why that's the vision that Shauna had six years ago for this resource. But I think that's probably one of the reasons why you enjoy this was one of your favorite projects on this series is because it really is trying to help the council encounter the Lord that they believe in. And it's not that they don't, but it's just like we get to encourage them and strengthen them. Again, going back to Romans chapter one that we talked about and that will come out in a couple weeks from now.

But it's the same idea. We get to sit down and the more that we're growing in these things with these resources that are according to God's word, gives us the tools that we need truly to sit down and continue to love and care and counsel God's people. Hope you guys are enjoying these. I hope they're encouraging to you. And please let us know if there's other things that will be helpful for us to record on, to continue to encourage you to equip, to live, and to counsel the word of God.