1 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Hi Brad, welcome to Honest 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:13,583 Money Show. 3 00:00:14,541 --> 00:00:15,375 Thank you for having me. 4 00:00:16,916 --> 00:00:17,333 Awesome. 5 00:00:17,333 --> 00:00:18,625 I am so glad you said 6 00:00:18,625 --> 00:00:19,916 yes to this episode. 7 00:00:20,250 --> 00:00:21,875 Um, so I've got your book 8 00:00:21,916 --> 00:00:23,666 Resistance Money Here, which is. 9 00:00:24,250 --> 00:00:26,000 An absolutely wonderful read. 10 00:00:26,375 --> 00:00:28,083 Um, I know quite a few people in 11 00:00:28,083 --> 00:00:30,291 Australia that quite like this. 12 00:00:30,291 --> 00:00:32,750 Um, the, this book, um, I'm 13 00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:34,166 also interested to know now 14 00:00:34,166 --> 00:00:35,500 on behalf of a friend, is 15 00:00:35,500 --> 00:00:36,958 the audio book coming out? 16 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,125 I am told about a month. 17 00:00:40,750 --> 00:00:40,875 Yeah. 18 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:41,083 Oh, 19 00:00:41,083 --> 00:00:42,041 awesome, awesome. 20 00:00:42,041 --> 00:00:43,583 There's a very busy dad who 21 00:00:43,583 --> 00:00:45,500 just had his second child 22 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:46,791 and he's very keen to get 23 00:00:46,791 --> 00:00:48,166 it in the audio version. 24 00:00:48,708 --> 00:00:50,125 Um, so yeah, I'm so 25 00:00:50,125 --> 00:00:51,125 happy to hear that. 26 00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:53,541 Um, oh, I wanna start 27 00:00:53,541 --> 00:00:55,666 by, uh, talking a little 28 00:00:55,666 --> 00:00:57,416 bit more about your book. 29 00:00:57,416 --> 00:00:57,708 So. 30 00:00:58,458 --> 00:01:00,458 In your book, you make a great 31 00:01:00,458 --> 00:01:02,750 philosophical case for Bitcoin. 32 00:01:03,458 --> 00:01:05,958 Uh, it's like, uh, essentially 33 00:01:05,958 --> 00:01:07,291 the foundation for a more 34 00:01:07,291 --> 00:01:08,875 just financial system. 35 00:01:08,875 --> 00:01:10,791 Do you wanna sort of give a 36 00:01:10,791 --> 00:01:14,000 high level view of, of what the 37 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:14,416 case is? 38 00:01:15,791 --> 00:01:16,250 Sure. 39 00:01:16,583 --> 00:01:18,500 There's two parts to it. 40 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:20,208 So the first part is the framework 41 00:01:20,208 --> 00:01:22,666 for, for how to evaluate Bitcoin. 42 00:01:22,791 --> 00:01:24,083 And then the second part is 43 00:01:24,083 --> 00:01:26,000 sort of walking through, um. 44 00:01:27,041 --> 00:01:28,666 Bitcoin when you're thinking 45 00:01:28,666 --> 00:01:30,291 about it in, in that framework. 46 00:01:30,291 --> 00:01:34,333 So the framework is, uh, we 47 00:01:34,333 --> 00:01:35,875 thought, so this is a, a co-written 48 00:01:35,875 --> 00:01:37,625 book with Andrew Bailey and Craig 49 00:01:37,625 --> 00:01:39,208 Warmke, who are also philosophers. 50 00:01:39,625 --> 00:01:42,166 And so much of the discussion 51 00:01:42,166 --> 00:01:44,541 around Bitcoin comes from 52 00:01:44,666 --> 00:01:46,500 either people who have Bitcoin 53 00:01:46,750 --> 00:01:49,791 and thus are incentivized to 54 00:01:49,833 --> 00:01:51,000 get other people to have it 55 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,250 so that the price will go up. 56 00:01:52,708 --> 00:01:52,958 Um. 57 00:01:53,541 --> 00:01:56,041 And on the other side, people who 58 00:01:56,083 --> 00:01:58,458 don't have Bitcoin and who could 59 00:01:58,458 --> 00:02:00,375 have maybe had Bitcoin a long 60 00:02:00,375 --> 00:02:03,208 time ago and now are incentivized 61 00:02:03,250 --> 00:02:05,000 to have been right all along. 62 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:06,750 And therefore they want the 63 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:07,958 price of Bitcoin to go down. 64 00:02:07,958 --> 00:02:09,208 So they turn out to be right. 65 00:02:09,250 --> 00:02:10,416 And it's really hard to 66 00:02:10,416 --> 00:02:12,250 figure out how do we evaluate 67 00:02:12,250 --> 00:02:13,708 things that we're, that we 68 00:02:13,708 --> 00:02:15,458 can literally invest money in. 69 00:02:15,958 --> 00:02:17,708 And there's an old 70 00:02:17,708 --> 00:02:18,750 thought experiment. 71 00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:21,666 From the 1960s and seventies in 72 00:02:21,666 --> 00:02:24,000 philosophy and economics called 73 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,291 the Veil of Ignorance, and that 74 00:02:27,291 --> 00:02:28,833 tells us that when we want to 75 00:02:28,833 --> 00:02:30,500 evaluate something that we're 76 00:02:30,875 --> 00:02:32,458 caught up in, that we're a part 77 00:02:32,458 --> 00:02:34,750 of, in this case that, that 78 00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:36,208 we have a financial stake in. 79 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,833 What we can do is step behind this 80 00:02:39,833 --> 00:02:42,416 veil and stepping behind the veil. 81 00:02:43,625 --> 00:02:45,958 F um, makes you forget who 82 00:02:45,958 --> 00:02:49,541 you are, so you can still know 83 00:02:49,541 --> 00:02:51,833 all the facts about the world. 84 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:53,041 In this case, all the facts 85 00:02:53,041 --> 00:02:54,416 about Bitcoin, but all the facts 86 00:02:54,416 --> 00:02:58,958 about, uh, what governments are 87 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,750 looking like, what money looks 88 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:02,083 like in different countries. 89 00:03:02,833 --> 00:03:04,958 What the political situations 90 00:03:04,958 --> 00:03:06,791 are, et cetera, the distribution 91 00:03:06,791 --> 00:03:08,083 of wealth, all that kinda stuff. 92 00:03:08,083 --> 00:03:10,375 So you know all of the facts. 93 00:03:10,625 --> 00:03:12,125 The only fact you don't know 94 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:13,416 is which person you are. 95 00:03:14,458 --> 00:03:16,125 And then you imagine if I, when 96 00:03:16,125 --> 00:03:17,500 I wake up tomorrow morning, I 97 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:18,791 could be any one of these people, 98 00:03:18,791 --> 00:03:20,791 there's an equal chance, would 99 00:03:20,791 --> 00:03:23,666 I want to wake up in a Bitcoin 100 00:03:23,666 --> 00:03:25,708 world or a non Bitcoin world? 101 00:03:26,291 --> 00:03:27,875 So the world exactly as it is 102 00:03:27,875 --> 00:03:29,083 or the world exactly as is. 103 00:03:29,083 --> 00:03:29,750 As it is. 104 00:03:29,833 --> 00:03:30,708 But without Bitcoin. 105 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:34,833 And when you, so that's part one is 106 00:03:34,833 --> 00:03:36,250 just setting up that framework and 107 00:03:36,250 --> 00:03:38,000 introducing that thought experiment 108 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,458 and then letting people decide. 109 00:03:39,875 --> 00:03:41,750 Um, but what we also wanna 110 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:43,416 do is help people think about 111 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,375 what Bitcoin looks like from 112 00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:46,541 the perspective of each of 113 00:03:46,541 --> 00:03:48,041 these people who they are not. 114 00:03:48,541 --> 00:03:50,541 So obviously if you wake 115 00:03:50,583 --> 00:03:52,000 up as Michael Saylor, you'd 116 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,291 want Bitcoin to exist. 117 00:03:53,791 --> 00:03:56,291 Um, but also if you wake up 118 00:03:56,291 --> 00:03:59,166 as someone who is living in an 119 00:03:59,166 --> 00:04:00,791 authoritarian regime and you're. 120 00:04:01,166 --> 00:04:02,833 You know, on the, the naughty 121 00:04:02,833 --> 00:04:05,833 list of the, of the authorities, 122 00:04:05,875 --> 00:04:06,875 they're, they're searching 123 00:04:06,875 --> 00:04:08,041 for you, they're blocking 124 00:04:08,041 --> 00:04:09,250 your bank account, et cetera. 125 00:04:10,083 --> 00:04:12,375 And similarly, maybe if you are 126 00:04:12,375 --> 00:04:14,166 a woman living in a society where 127 00:04:14,166 --> 00:04:15,250 you're not allowed to have a bank 128 00:04:15,250 --> 00:04:16,625 account where all your property 129 00:04:16,625 --> 00:04:18,041 belongs to your husband or your 130 00:04:18,041 --> 00:04:21,125 father, or if you, and so the, 131 00:04:21,125 --> 00:04:22,750 the list goes on of people who we 132 00:04:22,750 --> 00:04:24,375 think would prefer to live in a 133 00:04:24,375 --> 00:04:25,958 Bitcoin world than an onco world. 134 00:04:26,291 --> 00:04:29,291 And you from behind the veil. 135 00:04:29,666 --> 00:04:31,208 Could be any of those people. 136 00:04:33,083 --> 00:04:36,250 And once you step back through 137 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:38,333 the veil and you're, you, you 138 00:04:38,333 --> 00:04:40,625 shouldn't now forget everything 139 00:04:40,625 --> 00:04:41,666 that you learned and say, 140 00:04:41,666 --> 00:04:43,333 oh, well I still don't care. 141 00:04:43,833 --> 00:04:45,083 You should think, oh, those 142 00:04:45,083 --> 00:04:46,500 are, those are also people. 143 00:04:46,958 --> 00:04:47,875 I should care about what 144 00:04:47,875 --> 00:04:48,791 life is like for them. 145 00:04:48,791 --> 00:04:51,125 And so I should promote Bitcoin. 146 00:04:51,458 --> 00:04:52,666 Not necessarily buy, 147 00:04:52,708 --> 00:04:55,041 own, even use, but. 148 00:04:55,750 --> 00:04:57,541 At least think that Bitcoin is good 149 00:04:57,541 --> 00:04:59,250 and that, that the world is better 150 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:00,416 off for having Bitcoin in it. 151 00:05:01,708 --> 00:05:02,125 Yeah. 152 00:05:02,541 --> 00:05:03,625 Yeah, absolutely. 153 00:05:03,625 --> 00:05:05,375 And do you, do you believe that, 154 00:05:06,208 --> 00:05:08,208 um, it's not only a matter of 155 00:05:08,333 --> 00:05:10,791 holders versus non holders, but 156 00:05:11,416 --> 00:05:12,875 um, I guess where I'm trying 157 00:05:12,875 --> 00:05:15,750 to go is, is it also about like 158 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:17,250 those who understand versus 159 00:05:17,250 --> 00:05:18,750 those who don't understand? 160 00:05:19,291 --> 00:05:21,958 Um, going back to, to, to a quote 161 00:05:21,958 --> 00:05:24,583 that I heard someone say, um, is. 162 00:05:25,291 --> 00:05:27,333 Um, education leads to 163 00:05:27,333 --> 00:05:29,041 inevitable allocation. 164 00:05:29,458 --> 00:05:33,000 So is there an element of people, 165 00:05:33,041 --> 00:05:35,083 um, who are anti Bitcoin just 166 00:05:35,083 --> 00:05:36,750 simply not understanding it? 167 00:05:38,291 --> 00:05:39,750 I'm sure there are a lot of people 168 00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:42,833 who are against Bitcoin because 169 00:05:43,083 --> 00:05:45,208 they don't understand it, or, but 170 00:05:45,208 --> 00:05:46,250 there are, there are plenty of 171 00:05:46,250 --> 00:05:48,208 people who understand some of it. 172 00:05:49,125 --> 00:05:50,375 Maybe even understand 173 00:05:50,375 --> 00:05:51,458 how the blockchain works. 174 00:05:51,666 --> 00:05:53,166 There are computer scientists 175 00:05:53,166 --> 00:05:54,041 who are against it. 176 00:05:54,541 --> 00:05:56,416 Um, but I think that's because 177 00:05:56,416 --> 00:05:57,833 they're not aware of how 178 00:05:57,875 --> 00:05:59,916 Bitcoin is being used by the 179 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:01,958 people that I care about, uh, 180 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,375 who are, you know, trying to, 181 00:06:03,416 --> 00:06:04,916 to resist authoritarianism. 182 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,500 And it's really hard to read the 183 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:08,166 stories of all of these people 184 00:06:08,375 --> 00:06:10,458 to go to the Oslo Freedom Forum. 185 00:06:11,333 --> 00:06:12,500 That the Human Rights Foundation 186 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:14,000 puts on and hear person after 187 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,416 person talk about how they 188 00:06:15,416 --> 00:06:17,750 were able to escape political 189 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:19,916 persecution because of Bitcoin, 190 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,708 or overthrow a dictator because 191 00:06:21,708 --> 00:06:23,500 of Bitcoin, and then in the 192 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:25,375 end, say still it's bad. 193 00:06:26,500 --> 00:06:27,083 Yeah. 194 00:06:27,291 --> 00:06:28,291 Yeah, absolutely. 195 00:06:28,291 --> 00:06:29,708 I think it really matters 196 00:06:29,708 --> 00:06:31,333 what someone is exposed to. 197 00:06:31,416 --> 00:06:33,041 Um, if you're a police officer 198 00:06:33,083 --> 00:06:35,291 who's dealing with crime and you're 199 00:06:35,291 --> 00:06:37,958 constantly exposed to, I guess, 200 00:06:38,125 --> 00:06:40,583 uh, people using Bitcoin as, as a 201 00:06:40,583 --> 00:06:42,375 tool to commit those crimes, then. 202 00:06:42,750 --> 00:06:44,166 That's kind of your worldview, 203 00:06:44,166 --> 00:06:45,416 that's what you're exposed to. 204 00:06:45,416 --> 00:06:47,250 And I can understand why you might 205 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:49,666 be anti Bitcoin, but I also can 206 00:06:49,666 --> 00:06:51,958 see and appreciate that if someone 207 00:06:51,958 --> 00:06:53,916 like that did go to Oslo forum, 208 00:06:54,208 --> 00:06:55,875 that they might, you know, expand 209 00:06:55,875 --> 00:06:58,416 that, that, um, awareness and, and 210 00:06:58,416 --> 00:07:00,416 understanding of what, what it is. 211 00:07:01,083 --> 00:07:01,708 Um, my, 212 00:07:01,708 --> 00:07:03,500 my neighbor is a police 213 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:04,375 officer, actually. 214 00:07:04,583 --> 00:07:04,666 Oh, okay. 215 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:06,916 And when I told him, you know, I 216 00:07:06,916 --> 00:07:08,333 work on Bitcoin, and he said, oh 217 00:07:08,333 --> 00:07:09,833 yeah, we, we are just getting more 218 00:07:09,833 --> 00:07:11,708 and more calls from people who are. 219 00:07:12,125 --> 00:07:13,708 Uh, reporting scams where 220 00:07:13,708 --> 00:07:14,333 people are trying to 221 00:07:14,333 --> 00:07:15,625 extort them from Bitcoin. 222 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:17,666 Uh, I just, I just really hate 223 00:07:17,666 --> 00:07:20,541 Bitcoin, um, because it, it 224 00:07:20,666 --> 00:07:22,166 makes it easier for people to 225 00:07:22,166 --> 00:07:24,958 do illegal things and I said, 226 00:07:24,958 --> 00:07:26,541 oh, yeah, it totally does. 227 00:07:26,791 --> 00:07:29,541 Um, but it also makes it easier 228 00:07:29,541 --> 00:07:31,458 for people to do illegal things 229 00:07:31,625 --> 00:07:35,125 in countries where what's illegal 230 00:07:35,125 --> 00:07:38,125 isn't necessarily wrong and. 231 00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:39,666 He said, oh yeah, that's, 232 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:40,500 that's a really good point. 233 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:42,125 I said, not, not all laws are, 234 00:07:42,333 --> 00:07:44,291 are just laws, even in the us 235 00:07:44,291 --> 00:07:46,375 but especially in other places. 236 00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:49,958 And for example, Lexie Navalny, 237 00:07:49,958 --> 00:07:51,583 who you know, was fighting against 238 00:07:51,583 --> 00:07:52,833 Putin's regime for such a long 239 00:07:52,833 --> 00:07:54,833 time was using Bitcoin to do it. 240 00:07:54,916 --> 00:07:56,000 Oh yeah, he said that. 241 00:07:56,458 --> 00:07:56,916 That's really good. 242 00:07:56,916 --> 00:07:58,166 So I gave him a copy of the book. 243 00:07:58,875 --> 00:08:00,000 Uh, we're gonna, we're gonna 244 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:00,958 talk about it at some point. 245 00:08:00,958 --> 00:08:03,375 But I think even people who care 246 00:08:03,375 --> 00:08:04,583 about their own laws and wanna 247 00:08:04,583 --> 00:08:05,541 see their own laws followed 248 00:08:05,541 --> 00:08:08,000 can really easily see both how. 249 00:08:08,375 --> 00:08:09,875 Other laws are bad. 250 00:08:10,166 --> 00:08:11,916 And also how our laws aren't 251 00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:14,625 guaranteed to stay, um, 252 00:08:14,833 --> 00:08:15,916 the way that we want them. 253 00:08:15,916 --> 00:08:17,166 You know, it, it requires 254 00:08:17,166 --> 00:08:18,208 constant vigilance. 255 00:08:18,208 --> 00:08:20,375 And laws have changed throughout 256 00:08:20,375 --> 00:08:22,000 the years, and you might think 257 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,500 that people should have a backup in 258 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:27,416 case, uh, law, the laws go south. 259 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:30,291 Yeah, absolutely. 260 00:08:30,291 --> 00:08:32,083 And you know, my, my background 261 00:08:32,083 --> 00:08:34,583 is I'm ex U Yugoslavia, um, 262 00:08:34,625 --> 00:08:36,333 and now live in Australia and 263 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:38,166 Australia's such a. Good and 264 00:08:38,166 --> 00:08:39,708 stable country that a lot of 265 00:08:39,708 --> 00:08:42,708 people here can't imagine it ever 266 00:08:42,708 --> 00:08:45,333 turning into something undesirable. 267 00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:47,041 But I'm like, I kind of 268 00:08:47,041 --> 00:08:48,625 have the life experience 269 00:08:48,625 --> 00:08:50,041 that it is possible. 270 00:08:50,083 --> 00:08:52,375 Um, it is more than possible, 271 00:08:52,375 --> 00:08:53,458 so I'm always like a little 272 00:08:53,458 --> 00:08:55,250 bit vigilant and Yeah. 273 00:08:55,791 --> 00:08:59,250 Um, but I, I, um, also wanted to 274 00:08:59,250 --> 00:09:02,416 speak about, I. You know, when I 275 00:09:02,416 --> 00:09:04,041 started this podcast, obviously 276 00:09:04,041 --> 00:09:05,166 I started talking about all the 277 00:09:05,166 --> 00:09:07,333 good things about Bitcoin and, 278 00:09:07,333 --> 00:09:09,958 and how it's, um, how it's great 279 00:09:09,958 --> 00:09:11,375 and what problems it solves. 280 00:09:11,375 --> 00:09:13,375 But, uh, it's interestingly, a 281 00:09:13,375 --> 00:09:15,250 few people are coming out who. 282 00:09:15,666 --> 00:09:17,125 Don't yet have an allocation, 283 00:09:17,125 --> 00:09:18,333 but they are very curious 284 00:09:18,333 --> 00:09:19,875 about Bitcoin as a solution to 285 00:09:19,875 --> 00:09:21,208 some of the world's problems. 286 00:09:21,708 --> 00:09:23,166 And where they're particularly 287 00:09:23,166 --> 00:09:26,166 getting hung up on is, is like, 288 00:09:26,208 --> 00:09:27,666 okay, I understand Bitcoin. 289 00:09:27,666 --> 00:09:29,916 I understand what a deflationary 290 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:31,125 world might look like. 291 00:09:31,125 --> 00:09:33,375 I understand, uh, the value 292 00:09:33,375 --> 00:09:35,708 proposition for me personally, for 293 00:09:35,791 --> 00:09:37,625 the community, for the whole world. 294 00:09:38,166 --> 00:09:40,041 But they don't necessarily 295 00:09:40,041 --> 00:09:42,583 see the transition between the 296 00:09:42,583 --> 00:09:44,875 current world and a potentially 297 00:09:44,875 --> 00:09:47,791 a hyperized world, and also 298 00:09:47,791 --> 00:09:49,375 how that might impact things 299 00:09:49,375 --> 00:09:52,000 like government services. 300 00:09:52,166 --> 00:09:53,666 Um, so I know that's a very 301 00:09:53,875 --> 00:09:57,333 speculative question, um, and 302 00:09:57,375 --> 00:09:58,916 there's a lot to unpack there, but 303 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:00,708 they, do you have any thoughts? 304 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:02,916 Yeah, we, we talk about this 305 00:10:02,916 --> 00:10:05,541 in the book and I think there's 306 00:10:05,583 --> 00:10:06,833 a couple things to be said. 307 00:10:06,833 --> 00:10:07,708 So one is. 308 00:10:08,083 --> 00:10:11,375 Uh, the Hyperized world where, 309 00:10:11,375 --> 00:10:13,708 where Bitcoin is the only money 310 00:10:14,291 --> 00:10:15,583 and is used for everything 311 00:10:15,625 --> 00:10:17,666 is by no means guaranteed. 312 00:10:18,291 --> 00:10:21,375 That depends on both government 313 00:10:21,375 --> 00:10:23,500 action and individual choice. 314 00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:26,166 Governments will not stop 315 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:27,000 running their own currencies 316 00:10:28,291 --> 00:10:31,000 until nobody is using them, 317 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:32,708 and so that's up to people. 318 00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:34,541 People can decide whether 319 00:10:34,541 --> 00:10:35,500 they want to keep using the 320 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:36,666 government currency or not. 321 00:10:37,208 --> 00:10:38,583 So the other thing to say is I 322 00:10:38,583 --> 00:10:41,791 think Bitcoin, whether or not the 323 00:10:41,791 --> 00:10:44,416 entire world uses it as money all 324 00:10:44,416 --> 00:10:46,583 the time, still serves an important 325 00:10:46,583 --> 00:10:50,375 role for now, which is perhaps 326 00:10:50,375 --> 00:10:53,125 disciplining some of these central 327 00:10:53,125 --> 00:10:54,416 banks or people who are running 328 00:10:54,416 --> 00:10:56,833 currencies by letting them know 329 00:10:56,916 --> 00:10:58,500 that people have this option. 330 00:10:59,291 --> 00:11:01,000 That they can invest in Bitcoin, 331 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,458 that they can use Bitcoin as money, 332 00:11:02,458 --> 00:11:04,333 that they can accept Bitcoin for 333 00:11:04,333 --> 00:11:06,541 their goods and services, and 334 00:11:06,541 --> 00:11:10,875 that might make it that any, for 335 00:11:10,875 --> 00:11:13,166 example, central Bank digital 336 00:11:13,166 --> 00:11:15,916 currency has some guaranteed 337 00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:18,000 privacy features, because if not, 338 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,416 people will use Bitcoin instead 339 00:11:19,833 --> 00:11:22,083 that they can't seize it from. 340 00:11:22,708 --> 00:11:24,208 From people, um, because 341 00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:25,125 if they could, people 342 00:11:25,125 --> 00:11:26,125 will use Bitcoin instead. 343 00:11:26,166 --> 00:11:28,416 And so on down the line of, uh, 344 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:30,291 monetary policies and rules and 345 00:11:30,291 --> 00:11:32,125 things like that, if Bitcoin is 346 00:11:32,125 --> 00:11:36,250 around as an option, then central 347 00:11:36,250 --> 00:11:37,958 banks and, and people running 348 00:11:38,083 --> 00:11:41,500 currencies know that at any point 349 00:11:41,833 --> 00:11:43,333 people could use Bitcoin instead. 350 00:11:43,333 --> 00:11:45,583 And so they have to incentivize 351 00:11:45,583 --> 00:11:47,166 you to use their own currency. 352 00:11:47,416 --> 00:11:48,291 Now, one of the ways that 353 00:11:48,291 --> 00:11:49,416 that's happening, of course, is. 354 00:11:49,791 --> 00:11:50,625 As taxes. 355 00:11:50,666 --> 00:11:52,291 Um, if you live in the US you have 356 00:11:52,291 --> 00:11:53,833 to pay taxes in the US dollar. 357 00:11:53,833 --> 00:11:54,833 They don't accept Bitcoin. 358 00:11:54,916 --> 00:11:55,750 And I think most 359 00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:56,666 governments are like that. 360 00:11:56,708 --> 00:11:57,625 They only accept 361 00:11:57,625 --> 00:11:58,541 their local currency. 362 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,041 Um, so that's one kind of 363 00:12:02,041 --> 00:12:05,125 incentive, but it might be the 364 00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:07,125 case that people just keep all 365 00:12:07,125 --> 00:12:09,333 of their, uh, money in Bitcoin, 366 00:12:09,333 --> 00:12:11,666 use that for trend and only pay 367 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,708 taxes in the local currency. 368 00:12:13,708 --> 00:12:14,458 And I'm not sure how 369 00:12:14,458 --> 00:12:15,250 long those would last. 370 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:16,541 So, um. 371 00:12:17,541 --> 00:12:19,541 So I think incentivizes 372 00:12:20,375 --> 00:12:22,500 governments and banks to behave 373 00:12:22,666 --> 00:12:24,291 more responsibly than they 374 00:12:24,291 --> 00:12:25,375 might otherwise have done. 375 00:12:27,375 --> 00:12:27,666 Yeah. 376 00:12:28,208 --> 00:12:28,541 Yeah. 377 00:12:28,541 --> 00:12:29,750 And, and that is very 378 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:30,958 important 'cause sometimes 379 00:12:30,958 --> 00:12:33,041 government spending tends 380 00:12:33,041 --> 00:12:34,208 to get out of control. 381 00:12:34,583 --> 00:12:36,666 Um, and I'm particularly worried 382 00:12:36,666 --> 00:12:38,958 because in the last month alone. 383 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:43,250 Um, both Ray Dalio and Elon Musk 384 00:12:43,250 --> 00:12:45,666 have alluded to the debt crisis 385 00:12:45,666 --> 00:12:48,708 being a lot, um, sooner than what 386 00:12:48,708 --> 00:12:50,458 most, most people might think. 387 00:12:50,458 --> 00:12:52,166 So I think I've read somewhere like 388 00:12:52,166 --> 00:12:54,500 two to three year horizon, which 389 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:56,250 is obviously scary to think about. 390 00:12:56,250 --> 00:12:58,333 Um, and how. 391 00:12:58,833 --> 00:13:00,958 That will impact the US and 392 00:13:00,958 --> 00:13:02,583 the whole world if, if there 393 00:13:02,583 --> 00:13:05,125 is some sort of a debt crisis. 394 00:13:05,291 --> 00:13:06,500 Um, obviously I've never 395 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:07,333 lived through something 396 00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:08,541 like that in my lifetime. 397 00:13:08,541 --> 00:13:10,583 I have no idea what to expect. 398 00:13:11,166 --> 00:13:11,250 Um. 399 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:15,125 And also I can only speculate 400 00:13:15,125 --> 00:13:16,500 how Bitcoin is going to 401 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:17,791 fit into that picture. 402 00:13:18,375 --> 00:13:21,083 Um, I've also read that Russia, 403 00:13:21,083 --> 00:13:22,958 for example, is accusing now 404 00:13:22,958 --> 00:13:26,083 the US of, um, using Bitcoin and 405 00:13:26,083 --> 00:13:28,208 stable coins to manage their debt. 406 00:13:28,208 --> 00:13:32,250 So it's just, it's wild to think 407 00:13:32,416 --> 00:13:34,041 the times that we are living in. 408 00:13:34,458 --> 00:13:36,250 If you had asked me 10, 20 409 00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:38,416 years ago, if all of these 410 00:13:38,416 --> 00:13:40,000 things would be like a topic 411 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,333 of discussion, I wouldn't have. 412 00:13:41,875 --> 00:13:42,583 Believed it. 413 00:13:43,125 --> 00:13:44,375 Um, I'm very curious 414 00:13:44,375 --> 00:13:46,500 to know your, um, your 415 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:48,750 students at the university. 416 00:13:48,791 --> 00:13:49,791 Are they, do they talk 417 00:13:49,791 --> 00:13:50,666 to you about Bitcoin? 418 00:13:50,666 --> 00:13:51,625 Is that a thing? 419 00:13:53,541 --> 00:13:54,750 It's really interesting. 420 00:13:55,125 --> 00:13:57,458 Most of my students, when I 421 00:13:57,458 --> 00:13:59,500 tell them that I work on Bitcoin 422 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:01,333 in a, say, intro to philosophy 423 00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:02,458 class or something like that. 424 00:14:03,416 --> 00:14:05,208 A good number of them ask 425 00:14:05,208 --> 00:14:07,083 me what crypto I think 426 00:14:07,083 --> 00:14:09,000 is, is gonna pump next. 427 00:14:09,666 --> 00:14:12,291 And I say, you know, I'm, I'm 428 00:14:12,291 --> 00:14:13,166 just interested in Bitcoin. 429 00:14:13,166 --> 00:14:14,125 Well, they all feel like they 430 00:14:14,125 --> 00:14:15,375 missed the boat on Bitcoin. 431 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:16,125 Yeah. 432 00:14:16,166 --> 00:14:18,458 And that's because they no 433 00:14:18,458 --> 00:14:21,000 longer are thinking of savings. 434 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:23,208 When I was growing up, we, 435 00:14:23,333 --> 00:14:24,291 you know, I was taught to put 436 00:14:24,291 --> 00:14:26,708 away 10% or, or whatever I 437 00:14:26,708 --> 00:14:28,541 could in a savings account. 438 00:14:28,541 --> 00:14:29,583 And the savings account would 439 00:14:29,583 --> 00:14:32,750 get four or 5% a year and. 440 00:14:33,125 --> 00:14:35,250 Now a savings account gets 441 00:14:35,333 --> 00:14:36,666 basically nothing there. 442 00:14:36,666 --> 00:14:37,875 They, there's no interest 443 00:14:37,875 --> 00:14:40,125 on savings accounts and 444 00:14:40,958 --> 00:14:43,416 the price of things that 445 00:14:43,625 --> 00:14:45,125 students would wanna save for. 446 00:14:45,125 --> 00:14:48,416 Like homes are going up faster 447 00:14:48,416 --> 00:14:51,458 than what they can get as returns 448 00:14:51,458 --> 00:14:52,708 on any sort of investment. 449 00:14:52,958 --> 00:14:55,500 And uh, I think the main 450 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:56,375 reason they're interested in 451 00:14:56,375 --> 00:14:57,750 cryptocurrencies is because they 452 00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:59,291 think the only hope they have 453 00:14:59,708 --> 00:15:02,166 to achieve the American dream. 454 00:15:02,708 --> 00:15:04,916 Is to basically hit the 455 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:09,958 lottery and crypto is their 456 00:15:09,958 --> 00:15:11,458 version of the lottery. 457 00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:12,666 The, it's these pump 458 00:15:12,666 --> 00:15:13,958 and dump tokens. 459 00:15:14,291 --> 00:15:15,500 And if they can get in at the 460 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:16,916 right time and get out at the 461 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:19,500 right time, then they can make 462 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:21,875 enough money to actually have 463 00:15:21,875 --> 00:15:23,666 some, some sort of net worth. 464 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,708 And this idea of 465 00:15:25,708 --> 00:15:27,291 slowly and steadily. 466 00:15:27,666 --> 00:15:29,916 Investing in something like Bitcoin 467 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:33,208 or even the s and p 500, they just 468 00:15:33,208 --> 00:15:35,708 think is not gonna make them ever 469 00:15:35,708 --> 00:15:37,500 able to buy a house or to afford 470 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:39,083 to have kids or things like that. 471 00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:40,541 And that's really 472 00:15:40,541 --> 00:15:42,583 disheartening to me. 473 00:15:43,416 --> 00:15:45,125 Yeah, I, I, it breaks my 474 00:15:45,125 --> 00:15:47,125 heart that this is how 475 00:15:47,208 --> 00:15:48,875 the youth of today feels. 476 00:15:49,375 --> 00:15:50,625 Um, I can understand 477 00:15:50,625 --> 00:15:52,958 why they do it is. 478 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:54,625 I, I don't really, I'm not 479 00:15:54,625 --> 00:15:55,875 that close to the US but 480 00:15:55,875 --> 00:15:57,041 I know in Australia we're 481 00:15:57,041 --> 00:15:58,708 definitely experiencing a 482 00:15:58,708 --> 00:16:01,208 cost of living crisis, and I 483 00:16:01,208 --> 00:16:02,625 can't see it getting better. 484 00:16:02,625 --> 00:16:03,708 I can only see it getting 485 00:16:03,708 --> 00:16:05,500 worse if I'm completely honest. 486 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:06,916 And. 487 00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:08,083 Yeah. 488 00:16:08,083 --> 00:16:09,125 It's interesting that a 489 00:16:09,125 --> 00:16:11,000 lot of people are now deed 490 00:16:12,125 --> 00:16:13,583 to even think long term. 491 00:16:13,750 --> 00:16:16,750 Um, they want the quick wins. 492 00:16:17,291 --> 00:16:19,333 They don't wanna Yeah. 493 00:16:19,416 --> 00:16:23,000 It's, I don't, I don't know 494 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,250 how to, how to, how to yeah. 495 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:25,541 Solve for that problem. 496 00:16:26,625 --> 00:16:29,833 But, um, I want to know, 497 00:16:29,958 --> 00:16:32,166 um, I'm curious from you 498 00:16:32,666 --> 00:16:35,041 is how would we navigate. 499 00:16:36,041 --> 00:16:39,041 The world today into a Bitcoin ice 500 00:16:39,041 --> 00:16:41,333 world without extreme casualties. 501 00:16:44,541 --> 00:16:47,375 Um, do you mean a, a hyper Bitcoin 502 00:16:47,375 --> 00:16:49,125 ice world or a, i I mean, I think 503 00:16:49,125 --> 00:16:50,416 we live in a Bitcoin ice world. 504 00:16:50,958 --> 00:16:51,458 Um, yeah. 505 00:16:51,458 --> 00:16:53,625 Where Bitcoin is now pretty 506 00:16:53,625 --> 00:16:54,750 much, no matter where you 507 00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:56,083 live, an option for you. 508 00:16:56,625 --> 00:16:56,791 Mm-hmm. 509 00:16:57,041 --> 00:16:58,791 And everyone can, can 510 00:16:58,791 --> 00:17:00,250 opt in to Bitcoin. 511 00:17:00,250 --> 00:17:04,541 So I guess I haven't really. 512 00:17:05,833 --> 00:17:07,250 Thought all the way 513 00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:08,500 through what happens. 514 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,000 Yeah, if every or, or what would 515 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,625 need to be the case in order for 516 00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:14,916 everyone to opt into Bitcoin? 517 00:17:16,333 --> 00:17:18,125 I would guess that that would 518 00:17:18,125 --> 00:17:20,416 have to be because of some severe 519 00:17:20,458 --> 00:17:22,791 monetary and financial unrest. 520 00:17:23,041 --> 00:17:24,625 Like a debt crisis or something. 521 00:17:25,166 --> 00:17:26,125 Otherwise, there are, 522 00:17:26,125 --> 00:17:26,916 there are gonna be. 523 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:29,750 Still a large number of people 524 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:31,375 who don't see the need for it. 525 00:17:32,125 --> 00:17:33,833 So I can't, I can't really 526 00:17:33,833 --> 00:17:35,291 see a way that it happens 527 00:17:35,666 --> 00:17:38,000 without substantial 528 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,583 suffering along the way. 529 00:17:39,958 --> 00:17:42,375 So I'm hoping that that in, in 530 00:17:42,375 --> 00:17:43,541 some ways, I'm hoping that we don't 531 00:17:43,541 --> 00:17:45,083 get to a hyper Bitcoin ice world. 532 00:17:45,083 --> 00:17:46,750 I hope that we get to a place where 533 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,250 governments still have money, they 534 00:17:48,250 --> 00:17:50,458 can still use it to help people 535 00:17:50,458 --> 00:17:53,041 who need it by, you know, providing 536 00:17:53,041 --> 00:17:54,708 food and things like that. 537 00:17:55,083 --> 00:17:55,750 And. 538 00:17:55,791 --> 00:17:57,416 Then Bitcoin exists 539 00:17:57,416 --> 00:17:58,333 as a way to save. 540 00:17:59,458 --> 00:17:59,750 Yeah. 541 00:18:00,458 --> 00:18:00,833 Yeah. 542 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:03,625 Um, so you, you essentially 543 00:18:03,625 --> 00:18:05,041 are hoping for that Bitcoin 544 00:18:05,041 --> 00:18:06,833 stays as, as a, as a store of 545 00:18:06,833 --> 00:18:08,250 value rather than a medium of 546 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:10,250 exchange or a unit of account? 547 00:18:11,958 --> 00:18:14,708 Um, as, as the only medium of 548 00:18:14,708 --> 00:18:15,791 exchange or unit of account. 549 00:18:15,791 --> 00:18:15,875 Mm-hmm. 550 00:18:15,958 --> 00:18:16,875 I think that would be bad. 551 00:18:17,291 --> 00:18:17,541 Yeah. 552 00:18:17,541 --> 00:18:19,625 So I use, I use Bitcoin as a medium 553 00:18:19,625 --> 00:18:21,125 of exchange as much as possible, 554 00:18:21,125 --> 00:18:23,333 which is not very much due to. 555 00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:25,875 Laws about capital gains, 556 00:18:26,958 --> 00:18:28,916 but I know a lot of people 557 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:30,333 who use Bitcoin exclusively 558 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:31,916 as, as a means of exchange. 559 00:18:31,958 --> 00:18:33,833 And I think that's great. 560 00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:36,750 Um, but for people to be 561 00:18:36,750 --> 00:18:38,250 forced to use it as a medium 562 00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:40,166 exchange means other mediums 563 00:18:40,166 --> 00:18:41,458 of exchange have failed. 564 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,083 And I think that would be only 565 00:18:44,083 --> 00:18:46,625 because of a catastrophe that 566 00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:47,875 I would not want to see happen. 567 00:18:48,208 --> 00:18:48,250 Yeah. 568 00:18:48,666 --> 00:18:49,708 Yeah, absolutely. 569 00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:50,458 So I'd love, I'd 570 00:18:50,458 --> 00:18:51,500 love for more businesses 571 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:52,333 to accept Bitcoin. 572 00:18:52,333 --> 00:18:53,291 I'd love for the government 573 00:18:53,291 --> 00:18:56,458 to have, uh, exemptions 574 00:18:56,458 --> 00:18:58,750 for, um, certain amounts 575 00:18:58,750 --> 00:19:00,750 of Bitcoin transactions. 576 00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:01,625 I'd like to be able to buy 577 00:19:01,625 --> 00:19:02,708 groceries and all that sort of 578 00:19:02,708 --> 00:19:04,333 stuff with Bitcoin and instead, 579 00:19:04,875 --> 00:19:08,166 um, and I'm, I'm working towards 580 00:19:08,166 --> 00:19:11,750 that future, but that wouldn't 581 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:13,583 even be a, a hyper bitcoin s world, 582 00:19:13,583 --> 00:19:14,666 that would be a world where still. 583 00:19:15,708 --> 00:19:18,625 Weirdos like us who understand 584 00:19:18,625 --> 00:19:19,958 money and things like that can use 585 00:19:19,958 --> 00:19:22,625 it and other people will go along 586 00:19:22,625 --> 00:19:24,208 and their lives will be just fine 587 00:19:24,208 --> 00:19:25,333 with, with not having Bitcoin. 588 00:19:25,375 --> 00:19:25,458 Mm-hmm. 589 00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:28,416 Um, if we get to a point 590 00:19:28,416 --> 00:19:29,541 where everyone in America 591 00:19:29,541 --> 00:19:31,166 feels like they need Bitcoin, 592 00:19:31,166 --> 00:19:33,541 then I think it, it will mean 593 00:19:33,541 --> 00:19:34,625 something has gone terribly. 594 00:19:35,583 --> 00:19:36,083 Yeah. 595 00:19:36,083 --> 00:19:37,416 And that's my fear. 596 00:19:37,416 --> 00:19:38,625 That's my fear, that there will 597 00:19:38,625 --> 00:19:40,166 be some sort of a catastrophic 598 00:19:40,166 --> 00:19:41,541 event that will trigger people 599 00:19:41,541 --> 00:19:43,041 to need it, rather than, 600 00:19:43,458 --> 00:19:44,750 you know, being motivated 601 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:47,083 to get into it proactively. 602 00:19:47,083 --> 00:19:48,583 It will be a reactive thing. 603 00:19:48,583 --> 00:19:48,666 Mm-hmm. 604 00:19:49,208 --> 00:19:51,500 And I can see how that would 605 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:52,791 go terribly wrong because. 606 00:19:53,875 --> 00:19:55,083 It's not the type of thing 607 00:19:55,083 --> 00:19:56,750 that you just adopt overnight 608 00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:58,583 under duress and under panic. 609 00:19:58,708 --> 00:20:00,750 Um, a lot of things can obviously 610 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:02,708 go wrong with self custody and just 611 00:20:03,083 --> 00:20:04,708 the technical understanding of it. 612 00:20:04,708 --> 00:20:06,208 So I really hope that 613 00:20:06,208 --> 00:20:07,250 that doesn't happen. 614 00:20:07,291 --> 00:20:07,833 Um, 615 00:20:07,833 --> 00:20:09,833 we, we don't encourage anyone 616 00:20:09,833 --> 00:20:11,166 in the book to, to buy Bitcoin, 617 00:20:11,583 --> 00:20:13,291 but we do say, you should 618 00:20:13,291 --> 00:20:15,291 probably know how to use it. 619 00:20:15,375 --> 00:20:17,583 Maybe experiment with it so that 620 00:20:17,583 --> 00:20:19,166 if it, if it comes to a point where 621 00:20:19,166 --> 00:20:20,833 you do need it, perhaps you find 622 00:20:20,833 --> 00:20:22,250 yourself on the wrong side of. 623 00:20:22,916 --> 00:20:24,083 If you're government or something 624 00:20:24,083 --> 00:20:26,458 like that, at least you know how 625 00:20:26,458 --> 00:20:27,708 to use it and, and you're not 626 00:20:27,708 --> 00:20:29,125 gonna, you'll, you'll know how 627 00:20:29,125 --> 00:20:30,458 to transfer your wealth into it 628 00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:32,375 and then you won't lose it by 629 00:20:32,458 --> 00:20:34,166 mismanaging your keys or something. 630 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:34,791 Yeah. 631 00:20:34,791 --> 00:20:36,000 That's really important. 632 00:20:36,791 --> 00:20:38,458 Do you think there is a role 633 00:20:38,458 --> 00:20:41,083 to play, um, with, I guess 634 00:20:41,083 --> 00:20:42,375 the existing bitcoiners who 635 00:20:42,375 --> 00:20:46,250 understand it, um, helping educate 636 00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:48,166 governments, local communities? 637 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,833 Um, about Bitcoin, not so much the 638 00:20:51,833 --> 00:20:54,083 price, but the foundational stuff. 639 00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:56,000 Um, is there a responsibility 640 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,208 in us all to do that? 641 00:20:58,375 --> 00:20:59,500 Yeah, I think absolutely 642 00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:01,750 everyone who has taken the 643 00:21:01,750 --> 00:21:04,125 leap into understanding Bitcoin 644 00:21:04,125 --> 00:21:05,875 themselves should, I think 645 00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:08,166 probably start with whoever's 646 00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:09,500 in your sphere of influence. 647 00:21:10,166 --> 00:21:11,458 It's much more likely that 648 00:21:11,458 --> 00:21:12,625 you're gonna be able to help 649 00:21:12,625 --> 00:21:14,458 your neighbors and friends 650 00:21:14,708 --> 00:21:16,041 and family understand Bitcoin. 651 00:21:16,875 --> 00:21:18,458 Then that you're, you're gonna 652 00:21:18,458 --> 00:21:19,750 be able to help your prime 653 00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:21,041 minister or your president 654 00:21:21,041 --> 00:21:23,375 or, or what have you, um, or, 655 00:21:23,416 --> 00:21:25,166 or even member of Congress. 656 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:27,916 Um, also those people can, 657 00:21:27,958 --> 00:21:29,125 can serve as practice. 658 00:21:29,291 --> 00:21:30,875 If you ever do get the opportunity 659 00:21:30,875 --> 00:21:32,916 to, to talk to someone, uh, 660 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:35,083 who's in power, you'll have 661 00:21:35,375 --> 00:21:37,458 understood where other people's 662 00:21:37,458 --> 00:21:39,291 hangups are and the parts that 663 00:21:39,291 --> 00:21:41,166 are more difficult to explain. 664 00:21:42,125 --> 00:21:45,875 So I think it's really hard. 665 00:21:47,291 --> 00:21:49,416 Once you feel like you understand 666 00:21:49,416 --> 00:21:51,125 Bitcoin not to talk about it, 667 00:21:51,666 --> 00:21:52,750 you feel like you've made this 668 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:54,958 huge leap, uh, in understanding 669 00:21:54,958 --> 00:21:56,250 something really important. 670 00:21:56,708 --> 00:21:58,625 And, and once you've made the 671 00:21:58,625 --> 00:22:00,583 leap, it's almost hard to imagine 672 00:22:00,583 --> 00:22:03,916 how other people haven't and you 673 00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:06,875 think it should just be easy and 674 00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:07,916 that that's really interesting 675 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:08,916 how we can forget so easily. 676 00:22:09,833 --> 00:22:11,625 The mindset that we were in before, 677 00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:12,875 before we found out about it. 678 00:22:13,208 --> 00:22:14,500 Um, but the more of the kinds of 679 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:15,875 conversations you have and the more 680 00:22:15,875 --> 00:22:17,416 you hear the objections and things 681 00:22:17,416 --> 00:22:20,666 like that, I think the easier it 682 00:22:20,666 --> 00:22:23,541 is to have more of them, the better 683 00:22:23,541 --> 00:22:25,000 you get at explaining it to people. 684 00:22:25,958 --> 00:22:28,375 Yeah, it's, it's, it's so true. 685 00:22:28,375 --> 00:22:30,083 How, how easy we forget. 686 00:22:30,083 --> 00:22:31,958 I remember when I took ski 687 00:22:31,958 --> 00:22:35,041 lessons and, um, yeah, the ski 688 00:22:35,041 --> 00:22:37,166 instructor, uh, admitted that, 689 00:22:37,250 --> 00:22:38,333 you know, he's been skiing for 690 00:22:38,333 --> 00:22:39,750 15 years, so he doesn't know 691 00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:41,250 what it's like to be a beginner. 692 00:22:41,666 --> 00:22:43,166 Um, and I feel like we 693 00:22:43,541 --> 00:22:45,666 transition from A to B in 694 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:47,583 a much shorter timeframe. 695 00:22:48,083 --> 00:22:48,583 Um. 696 00:22:48,916 --> 00:22:50,333 You know, only a year ago 697 00:22:50,333 --> 00:22:51,750 or just over a year ago, I 698 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:53,166 thought Bitcoin was a scam. 699 00:22:53,166 --> 00:22:54,083 I absolutely didn't, 700 00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:55,250 didn't care for it. 701 00:22:55,250 --> 00:22:56,791 And now I, I care 702 00:22:56,791 --> 00:22:57,916 about it very much. 703 00:22:59,833 --> 00:23:00,041 Yeah. 704 00:23:00,041 --> 00:23:00,750 From thinking it's a 705 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:02,125 scam to having a podcast. 706 00:23:03,375 --> 00:23:05,875 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 707 00:23:06,166 --> 00:23:08,500 Um, in Australia we have the 708 00:23:08,583 --> 00:23:10,458 Australian Bitcoin industry body, 709 00:23:10,541 --> 00:23:12,416 and this is like an entirely 710 00:23:12,416 --> 00:23:15,000 voluntary organization where 711 00:23:15,416 --> 00:23:17,625 we speak to government bodies 712 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,666 about Bitcoin and try help 713 00:23:19,666 --> 00:23:21,250 inform some of the policies. 714 00:23:21,250 --> 00:23:23,875 But, um, yeah, it's, we're 715 00:23:23,875 --> 00:23:25,541 still so early, Brad, we 716 00:23:25,541 --> 00:23:27,125 are so early in Australia. 717 00:23:27,458 --> 00:23:28,750 Uh, there's only been. 718 00:23:29,208 --> 00:23:30,916 One politician that has 719 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:33,916 proactively reached out, um, to 720 00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:35,791 the body, to the industry body, 721 00:23:35,791 --> 00:23:37,416 to, to speak about Bitcoin. 722 00:23:37,458 --> 00:23:38,791 And other than that, it's, 723 00:23:38,791 --> 00:23:40,500 um, a few people are talking 724 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:42,000 about it, but not very 725 00:23:42,166 --> 00:23:43,708 proactively doing anything. 726 00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:47,833 Um, but yeah, I, I would like to 727 00:23:47,833 --> 00:23:49,541 talk about the human rights more. 728 00:23:49,541 --> 00:23:50,750 That that is, yeah. 729 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:52,500 Something that's dear to my heart. 730 00:23:52,541 --> 00:23:54,666 Um, so yeah. 731 00:23:54,666 --> 00:23:55,875 What can you tell us about the 732 00:23:55,875 --> 00:23:57,583 human rights aspect from the book? 733 00:23:58,583 --> 00:24:01,000 Well, the, the first thing that 734 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,083 got me interested in Bitcoin was 735 00:24:04,875 --> 00:24:06,500 I had a friend who had come back 736 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,666 from, uh, the summer break that 737 00:24:09,666 --> 00:24:11,250 we had during graduate school, and 738 00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:14,333 he was, had just done the whole 739 00:24:14,333 --> 00:24:15,750 summer, just spent researching 740 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:17,500 Bitcoin, which ended with him, 741 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,250 like sending off a wire transfer 742 00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:20,625 to some random bank in Russia. 743 00:24:21,416 --> 00:24:23,541 And he was telling me about it. 744 00:24:23,541 --> 00:24:24,916 It's this, it's this currency 745 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:26,291 and it lives on the internet. 746 00:24:26,708 --> 00:24:27,958 And you can send it 747 00:24:27,958 --> 00:24:29,583 for like no money. 748 00:24:30,333 --> 00:24:32,541 And I had lived in Singapore 749 00:24:32,541 --> 00:24:33,541 as a child growing up. 750 00:24:34,208 --> 00:24:36,875 And I remembered watching people 751 00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:39,291 stand in line to do foreign, 752 00:24:39,583 --> 00:24:42,708 uh, remittances from like back 753 00:24:42,708 --> 00:24:44,125 to the Philippines or back to 754 00:24:44,125 --> 00:24:45,500 Bangladesh or things like that. 755 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,500 And I knew that it was like 756 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:49,666 20, 25% that these people 757 00:24:49,666 --> 00:24:50,916 would pay to send money. 758 00:24:51,166 --> 00:24:52,083 Their family members would 759 00:24:52,083 --> 00:24:53,458 have to walk, get the money 760 00:24:53,458 --> 00:24:55,833 in cash, carry it home, hiding 761 00:24:55,833 --> 00:24:57,458 it under their clothes, trying 762 00:24:57,458 --> 00:24:58,416 to pretend they didn't just 763 00:24:58,416 --> 00:24:59,708 come from the Western Union. 764 00:25:00,166 --> 00:25:01,083 And I was like, oh, this 765 00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:02,250 will save them so much money. 766 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:03,458 Um. 767 00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:05,250 So that was like the, the 768 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,041 first light bulb moment was 769 00:25:07,125 --> 00:25:08,375 international remittances. 770 00:25:08,625 --> 00:25:10,875 And then the second was shortly 771 00:25:10,875 --> 00:25:13,041 after this reading a story in 772 00:25:13,041 --> 00:25:15,250 time about, uh, time Magazine 773 00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:18,625 about Roy Abbo, who had started 774 00:25:18,625 --> 00:25:20,833 up a software company in 775 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Afghanistan and was hiring women. 776 00:25:24,791 --> 00:25:26,500 And women couldn't 777 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:28,625 have bank accounts. 778 00:25:28,666 --> 00:25:29,708 They couldn't have money. 779 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,083 The people, the women who 780 00:25:32,083 --> 00:25:33,125 were working for her were 781 00:25:33,125 --> 00:25:34,583 going home and getting the 782 00:25:34,583 --> 00:25:36,666 money taken from them, and she 783 00:25:36,666 --> 00:25:37,875 started paying them in Bitcoin. 784 00:25:38,083 --> 00:25:39,583 So just some small percentage 785 00:25:39,583 --> 00:25:41,833 so that their, their families 786 00:25:41,833 --> 00:25:43,208 wouldn't know what was happening, 787 00:25:43,458 --> 00:25:44,750 but she wanted to give them sort 788 00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:46,708 of financial freedom, the ability 789 00:25:46,708 --> 00:25:49,333 to, to build wealth for themselves. 790 00:25:49,958 --> 00:25:52,625 And a lot of them were 791 00:25:52,625 --> 00:25:55,000 able to live much more 792 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,625 freely after she did that. 793 00:25:56,666 --> 00:25:59,708 And so that was really for me. 794 00:26:00,583 --> 00:26:02,500 Uh, as much as the first one got 795 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:04,750 me interested, this convinced 796 00:26:04,750 --> 00:26:06,125 me of the value of Bitcoin. 797 00:26:06,666 --> 00:26:07,958 That when there are people 798 00:26:07,958 --> 00:26:10,000 who have authority over you 799 00:26:10,458 --> 00:26:12,458 and can dictate how you live 800 00:26:12,458 --> 00:26:15,166 your life, it's important to 801 00:26:15,166 --> 00:26:17,000 be able to get away from them. 802 00:26:17,708 --> 00:26:19,250 But if you don't have anything, 803 00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:21,000 you don't ever think that 804 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,875 you can do that you think 805 00:26:22,875 --> 00:26:24,583 that your options are. 806 00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:26,250 Um, you think that you 807 00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:27,291 don't have options. 808 00:26:27,791 --> 00:26:29,208 So for a whole lot of people 809 00:26:29,208 --> 00:26:30,375 around the world now, this can 810 00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:31,583 work with husbands or fathers. 811 00:26:31,583 --> 00:26:32,625 It can also work with 812 00:26:32,625 --> 00:26:34,125 governments or bosses. 813 00:26:34,625 --> 00:26:36,000 A lot of people think that they're 814 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,541 beholden to someone or some 815 00:26:38,541 --> 00:26:40,791 group of people and they can't 816 00:26:40,791 --> 00:26:42,583 imagine their life changing. 817 00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:45,875 But having access to Bitcoin 818 00:26:46,875 --> 00:26:49,166 and being able to build wealth 819 00:26:49,166 --> 00:26:50,625 in a way that's private, 820 00:26:50,875 --> 00:26:52,708 that nobody knows about, that 821 00:26:52,708 --> 00:26:53,875 nobody can take from you. 822 00:26:54,666 --> 00:26:55,875 I think it's really important 823 00:26:56,208 --> 00:26:58,666 for, for them and, and, yeah. 824 00:27:01,125 --> 00:27:02,875 Yeah, and, and obviously 825 00:27:02,875 --> 00:27:04,333 love hearing those stories. 826 00:27:04,541 --> 00:27:06,083 You've just inspired me to, 827 00:27:06,083 --> 00:27:07,916 to travel to Oslo, to, to 828 00:27:08,208 --> 00:27:10,000 listen in on these stories. 829 00:27:10,541 --> 00:27:12,541 Um, and I'm distracted 830 00:27:12,541 --> 00:27:13,708 by the Hamilton poster 831 00:27:13,708 --> 00:27:15,250 and behind you as well. 832 00:27:15,250 --> 00:27:16,458 I actually love the play. 833 00:27:17,375 --> 00:27:18,250 I was listening to that 834 00:27:18,250 --> 00:27:19,375 before we started recording. 835 00:27:19,833 --> 00:27:20,041 Yeah. 836 00:27:20,041 --> 00:27:21,625 It, it's, it's, um, one of 837 00:27:21,625 --> 00:27:22,833 my favorite soundtracks. 838 00:27:22,833 --> 00:27:23,916 Sometimes I'll listen to 839 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:25,125 it when, when I, when I'm 840 00:27:25,125 --> 00:27:26,708 in the gym because Yeah. 841 00:27:26,708 --> 00:27:29,375 And also it just somehow also 842 00:27:29,375 --> 00:27:31,125 reminds me, weirdly of Bitcoin, but 843 00:27:31,125 --> 00:27:33,125 that's just, I guess a, a me thing. 844 00:27:33,541 --> 00:27:33,958 Um, 845 00:27:35,083 --> 00:27:36,125 well, Alexander Hamilton 846 00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:37,958 started the, the National 847 00:27:37,958 --> 00:27:39,750 Bank of the United States, 848 00:27:39,791 --> 00:27:41,041 so there's a lot of, uh. 849 00:27:41,416 --> 00:27:42,375 Lot of foot for them. 850 00:27:44,166 --> 00:27:44,458 Yeah. 851 00:27:45,083 --> 00:27:48,125 Um, but, uh, uh, you know, you 852 00:27:48,125 --> 00:27:49,666 being a professor at University 853 00:27:49,666 --> 00:27:51,541 of Wyoming, I'm more interested as 854 00:27:51,541 --> 00:27:54,083 well to understand the, the young 855 00:27:54,083 --> 00:27:56,125 people's mindset and perspective 856 00:27:56,125 --> 00:27:57,416 when it comes to Bitcoin. 857 00:27:57,750 --> 00:28:00,541 Um, how, how, what is, what are 858 00:28:00,541 --> 00:28:02,541 some of the, are, is there another 859 00:28:02,541 --> 00:28:05,458 entry point into their curiosity 860 00:28:05,458 --> 00:28:07,791 other than just the price? 861 00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:09,291 Yes. 862 00:28:09,291 --> 00:28:10,583 So I said, I mentioned that 863 00:28:11,125 --> 00:28:12,416 one group just asked me about 864 00:28:12,416 --> 00:28:13,500 these, these pump and dump 865 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:14,833 tokens because they, they 866 00:28:14,833 --> 00:28:16,291 view it as a, a slot machine. 867 00:28:16,791 --> 00:28:19,583 Um, but then there, there's a 868 00:28:19,583 --> 00:28:23,250 sizable group who have grown up. 869 00:28:24,416 --> 00:28:25,583 I mean, they, they've now all 870 00:28:25,583 --> 00:28:27,291 grown up understanding that. 871 00:28:28,125 --> 00:28:30,291 There's really no privacy on 872 00:28:30,291 --> 00:28:33,541 the internet, um, that your 873 00:28:33,541 --> 00:28:35,166 ISP is tracking what you 874 00:28:35,166 --> 00:28:37,958 visit, and there's cookies 875 00:28:37,958 --> 00:28:39,750 on every website and, and 876 00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:43,750 your data is very valuable. 877 00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:46,583 Commodity that is collected 878 00:28:46,708 --> 00:28:48,791 and bought and sold and 879 00:28:48,791 --> 00:28:50,250 traded and things like that. 880 00:28:51,208 --> 00:28:52,416 And they know that every 881 00:28:52,416 --> 00:28:53,541 purchase they make with a 882 00:28:53,541 --> 00:28:56,625 credit card or using their bank 883 00:28:56,625 --> 00:28:58,958 account online is tracked and 884 00:28:58,958 --> 00:29:00,875 correlated and things like that. 885 00:29:00,875 --> 00:29:02,916 So they've grown up thinking this 886 00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:04,416 is just, this is part of life. 887 00:29:04,750 --> 00:29:07,708 It's impossible to get away from 888 00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:10,000 these violations of privacy. 889 00:29:10,125 --> 00:29:11,875 And they basically think that 890 00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:13,708 they don't have privacy anymore, 891 00:29:14,333 --> 00:29:16,250 that it's nearly impossible to 892 00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:17,875 get if you wanna live a somewhat 893 00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:19,791 normal life now, right now. 894 00:29:20,708 --> 00:29:22,208 Using Bitcoin means not 895 00:29:22,208 --> 00:29:24,041 living a somewhat normal life. 896 00:29:24,375 --> 00:29:25,208 'cause it's really hard to 897 00:29:25,208 --> 00:29:26,833 find places to, to spend 898 00:29:26,833 --> 00:29:28,541 Bitcoin and still a lot of 899 00:29:28,666 --> 00:29:30,958 you have to enter your address 900 00:29:30,958 --> 00:29:31,916 and, and things like that. 901 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,958 But, um, I explained to them 902 00:29:35,083 --> 00:29:38,083 that with Bitcoin, your name 903 00:29:38,083 --> 00:29:40,833 is not associated with your, 904 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,708 uh, Bitcoin address and. 905 00:29:45,208 --> 00:29:46,416 There's no way for someone 906 00:29:46,416 --> 00:29:47,333 to look at the Bitcoin 907 00:29:47,333 --> 00:29:48,708 blockchain and figure out 908 00:29:48,750 --> 00:29:50,458 which transactions are yours. 909 00:29:51,166 --> 00:29:53,166 Now, that's less true 910 00:29:53,375 --> 00:29:54,291 than it was when I first 911 00:29:54,291 --> 00:29:55,166 started saying this to them. 912 00:29:55,166 --> 00:29:56,583 'cause there are now firms 913 00:29:56,583 --> 00:29:57,416 that specialize in that. 914 00:29:57,625 --> 00:29:59,458 But, but for most of my students. 915 00:30:00,666 --> 00:30:02,458 Nobody's ever gonna dedicate 916 00:30:02,458 --> 00:30:04,000 the computing resources that 917 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,000 it would take to do the kind of 918 00:30:06,041 --> 00:30:08,166 blockchain analytics that would 919 00:30:08,166 --> 00:30:10,208 enable companies or governments 920 00:30:10,208 --> 00:30:11,708 to figure out who they are. 921 00:30:12,125 --> 00:30:12,333 Right? 922 00:30:12,375 --> 00:30:14,041 This is trivially easy for 923 00:30:14,041 --> 00:30:15,500 credit card companies to do. 924 00:30:15,833 --> 00:30:17,916 It takes absolutely no effort. 925 00:30:17,958 --> 00:30:19,208 It takes a lot of effort in the 926 00:30:19,208 --> 00:30:20,958 case of Bitcoin, so it's not a 927 00:30:20,958 --> 00:30:23,000 guarantee of privacy using Bitcoin, 928 00:30:23,666 --> 00:30:25,916 but it's, it's pretty good. 929 00:30:26,625 --> 00:30:28,250 And for people like them. 930 00:30:28,958 --> 00:30:30,583 It will almost certainly be 931 00:30:30,583 --> 00:30:32,583 the case that their Bitcoin 932 00:30:32,583 --> 00:30:34,666 transactions will never be linked 933 00:30:34,791 --> 00:30:36,666 to them, and that's a really 934 00:30:36,666 --> 00:30:38,916 valuable thing I think on, on 935 00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:42,625 today's internet where it's really 936 00:30:42,625 --> 00:30:44,875 hard to find that level of privacy. 937 00:30:45,666 --> 00:30:48,083 Um, they also have grown 938 00:30:48,083 --> 00:30:49,208 up learning about people 939 00:30:49,208 --> 00:30:50,875 being cut off from financial 940 00:30:50,875 --> 00:30:54,000 services and they've. 941 00:30:54,541 --> 00:30:56,708 None of them have have, at least 942 00:30:56,708 --> 00:30:58,500 I haven't had a student come up to 943 00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:00,958 me ever and say I was de banked or 944 00:31:01,583 --> 00:31:03,083 Visa wouldn't let my transactions 945 00:31:03,083 --> 00:31:03,791 go through or something. 946 00:31:03,791 --> 00:31:06,041 But they, they know about marijuana 947 00:31:06,041 --> 00:31:07,333 companies who've been forced 948 00:31:07,333 --> 00:31:10,208 to hide all of their cash and 949 00:31:10,208 --> 00:31:11,500 massive safes in the basement. 950 00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:12,375 'cause no bank will 951 00:31:12,416 --> 00:31:13,750 take them on and. 952 00:31:15,375 --> 00:31:18,041 They're aware of Visa and PayPal 953 00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:19,916 and Venmo and these other providers 954 00:31:19,958 --> 00:31:21,750 blocking transactions from 955 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:23,500 certain places or about certain 956 00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:28,291 topics, and so they understand the 957 00:31:28,291 --> 00:31:31,500 value of a currency where nobody 958 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:34,958 can, can block transactions. 959 00:31:34,958 --> 00:31:36,375 Nobody can prevent you from 960 00:31:36,375 --> 00:31:38,333 sending Bitcoin to someone else. 961 00:31:38,333 --> 00:31:39,041 No one can prevent 962 00:31:39,041 --> 00:31:40,083 you from receiving it. 963 00:31:41,083 --> 00:31:41,625 That's. 964 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,958 A novel thing for them, but they, 965 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,208 they see the importance of it. 966 00:31:45,208 --> 00:31:47,541 So yeah, for most of them, 967 00:31:47,541 --> 00:31:50,166 I actually approach Bitcoin 968 00:31:50,166 --> 00:31:51,500 not as a store of value, 969 00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:53,166 but as a medium of exchange. 970 00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:55,333 And through the lens 971 00:31:55,375 --> 00:31:57,166 of financial privacy. 972 00:31:57,666 --> 00:31:59,458 You thought, I'll say to them 973 00:31:59,458 --> 00:32:01,875 that it was impossible to have any 974 00:32:01,875 --> 00:32:03,833 privacy anymore on the internet. 975 00:32:04,375 --> 00:32:06,375 Uh, but it turns out that it is, 976 00:32:06,375 --> 00:32:07,875 and it's, it's because of bitcoin. 977 00:32:29,708 --> 00:32:30,166 Yeah. 978 00:32:30,166 --> 00:32:32,125 And I'm very curious to know is 979 00:32:32,166 --> 00:32:33,666 when, when you talk about the 980 00:32:33,666 --> 00:32:35,208 medium of exchange and this seu 981 00:32:35,208 --> 00:32:36,875 unanimous nature of Bitcoin with 982 00:32:36,875 --> 00:32:39,208 your students, do you have some 983 00:32:39,208 --> 00:32:41,625 students asking, you know, I guess 984 00:32:41,625 --> 00:32:44,166 bigger questions and having alarms 985 00:32:44,166 --> 00:32:45,625 going off in their head about, 986 00:32:45,958 --> 00:32:48,791 well, if that's the case, how would 987 00:32:48,875 --> 00:32:50,916 people pay tax hypothetically? 988 00:32:51,458 --> 00:32:51,583 Um. 989 00:32:52,291 --> 00:32:54,000 If, if they, if it can't be tracked 990 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,250 by governments, um, I can see that 991 00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:57,958 being a concern for many people. 992 00:32:59,125 --> 00:32:59,583 Yeah. 993 00:33:00,416 --> 00:33:01,625 Not, not so. 994 00:33:01,625 --> 00:33:02,583 So they'll ask about that. 995 00:33:02,583 --> 00:33:03,375 Well, how do you, how do you 996 00:33:03,375 --> 00:33:05,541 effectively tax a population 997 00:33:05,541 --> 00:33:07,041 that's using a private money? 998 00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,541 Also, how do you effectively 999 00:33:09,541 --> 00:33:10,875 enforce sanctions? 1000 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,500 On countries, if they can just 1001 00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:15,750 turn to Bitcoin, how do you 1002 00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:19,041 effectively track arms sales or 1003 00:33:19,041 --> 00:33:20,750 human trafficking, things like 1004 00:33:20,750 --> 00:33:22,291 that, if they can use Bitcoin. 1005 00:33:23,083 --> 00:33:27,208 So to the I, those are, I 1006 00:33:27,208 --> 00:33:28,875 think, three really distinct. 1007 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:29,666 They require three 1008 00:33:29,666 --> 00:33:30,750 really distinct answers. 1009 00:33:30,958 --> 00:33:32,125 So in the second case with 1010 00:33:32,125 --> 00:33:35,041 sanctions, um, you basically can't 1011 00:33:35,041 --> 00:33:38,416 enforce small scale sanction. 1012 00:33:38,458 --> 00:33:39,833 Uh, you can't, you can't. 1013 00:33:40,166 --> 00:33:42,791 Sanction entities from spending 1014 00:33:42,833 --> 00:33:45,291 small amounts of Bitcoin, but 1015 00:33:46,041 --> 00:33:48,750 at the level of, say, Russian 1016 00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:51,583 oligarchs, it's really hard 1017 00:33:52,083 --> 00:33:56,333 to transfer a billion dollars 1018 00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:58,875 of wealth into Bitcoin as 1019 00:33:58,875 --> 00:34:00,625 an individual these days 1020 00:34:00,875 --> 00:34:02,041 without people noticing. 1021 00:34:02,875 --> 00:34:07,125 Um, so that's one way of, of 1022 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:09,208 responding to this idea that. 1023 00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:12,208 Uh, criminal ma major drug 1024 00:34:12,208 --> 00:34:14,708 organizations or crime syndicates 1025 00:34:14,708 --> 00:34:17,041 or oligarchs or things like that, 1026 00:34:17,041 --> 00:34:18,750 we'll just use Bitcoin instead. 1027 00:34:18,833 --> 00:34:18,958 Mm-hmm. 1028 00:34:19,708 --> 00:34:21,666 It's really impractical at 1029 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:22,916 the levels that they need. 1030 00:34:22,916 --> 00:34:24,583 Maybe that won't be the case. 1031 00:34:24,875 --> 00:34:26,083 When I first started saying 1032 00:34:26,083 --> 00:34:27,500 this, the market cap of 1033 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:29,708 Bitcoin was, you know, 10% 1034 00:34:29,708 --> 00:34:31,250 of what it is now or less. 1035 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:33,416 So the bigger that gets, 1036 00:34:33,416 --> 00:34:34,708 the easier it is for them. 1037 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,000 In response to the human 1038 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,458 trafficking and drugs 1039 00:34:39,458 --> 00:34:40,708 and things like that. 1040 00:34:41,625 --> 00:34:42,750 I think there's two responses. 1041 00:34:42,791 --> 00:34:44,083 One is we've actually seen a 1042 00:34:44,083 --> 00:34:46,750 lot of those be tracked and, and 1043 00:34:46,750 --> 00:34:48,333 people be associated with their 1044 00:34:48,333 --> 00:34:49,708 Bitcoin transactions because 1045 00:34:49,708 --> 00:34:51,666 governments dedicate significant 1046 00:34:51,666 --> 00:34:53,208 computing resources to doing that. 1047 00:34:54,041 --> 00:34:57,875 And the other response is that. 1048 00:34:58,833 --> 00:35:00,333 People already have a 1049 00:35:00,333 --> 00:35:02,166 vehicle for doing that. 1050 00:35:02,625 --> 00:35:04,625 That works far better than Bitcoin 1051 00:35:04,750 --> 00:35:06,750 that doesn't have a blockchain. 1052 00:35:07,125 --> 00:35:08,583 That's an immutable record 1053 00:35:08,666 --> 00:35:10,625 of all the transactions, and 1054 00:35:10,625 --> 00:35:11,916 that's just physical cash. 1055 00:35:13,041 --> 00:35:15,041 A hundred dollars US a hundred 1056 00:35:15,041 --> 00:35:17,750 dollars bills are by far the 1057 00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:22,333 most used currency for drugs and 1058 00:35:22,333 --> 00:35:25,375 human trafficking and arms deals. 1059 00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:27,666 And I, I remember learning 1060 00:35:27,666 --> 00:35:32,375 at some point that 95% of us, 1061 00:35:32,375 --> 00:35:33,750 a hundred dollars bills had 1062 00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:35,083 traces of cocaine on them. 1063 00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:36,625 And I remember being 1064 00:35:36,625 --> 00:35:38,916 shocked by this, but it, 1065 00:35:38,916 --> 00:35:40,041 it makes perfect sense. 1066 00:35:40,166 --> 00:35:43,833 Physical cash is it, it's bulky and 1067 00:35:43,833 --> 00:35:46,833 it's heavy, but it's untraceable. 1068 00:35:47,375 --> 00:35:49,958 And unless you're there to see the 1069 00:35:49,958 --> 00:35:51,541 transaction, there's, there's no 1070 00:35:51,541 --> 00:35:52,958 traces of it left in the world. 1071 00:35:53,833 --> 00:35:55,416 We can still go back to the very 1072 00:35:55,416 --> 00:35:57,625 first Bitcoin transactions and 1073 00:35:57,625 --> 00:36:00,208 see them on the blockchain and run 1074 00:36:00,208 --> 00:36:02,916 analytics and, and so it's a really 1075 00:36:02,916 --> 00:36:06,416 bad idea if you want to transact 1076 00:36:06,416 --> 00:36:08,625 large amounts privately to do that. 1077 00:36:09,166 --> 00:36:10,708 Uh, and then in terms of taxes, 1078 00:36:11,791 --> 00:36:12,583 you can do the same thing. 1079 00:36:12,583 --> 00:36:13,583 I mean, people get paid 1080 00:36:13,625 --> 00:36:14,791 under the table in cash. 1081 00:36:15,375 --> 00:36:16,500 And governments can't 1082 00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:17,750 really tax that either. 1083 00:36:18,458 --> 00:36:20,666 So I don't think Bitcoin, 1084 00:36:20,875 --> 00:36:22,250 one of the, one of the things 1085 00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:23,333 we try to show in the book 1086 00:36:23,333 --> 00:36:24,916 is that Bitcoin privacy is 1087 00:36:24,958 --> 00:36:27,375 very similar to cash privacy. 1088 00:36:28,041 --> 00:36:30,000 And if you're okay with cash, 1089 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,166 which you should be because 1090 00:36:31,166 --> 00:36:32,125 we've been using it for 1091 00:36:32,125 --> 00:36:33,416 thousands of years, then you 1092 00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:34,500 should be okay with Bitcoin. 1093 00:36:34,666 --> 00:36:36,000 And yes, you're not gonna, 1094 00:36:36,416 --> 00:36:36,875 you're not going to. 1095 00:36:37,875 --> 00:36:39,750 Be able to do the same kinds 1096 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:41,166 of things as a government that 1097 00:36:41,166 --> 00:36:43,875 you can do with digital money 1098 00:36:44,041 --> 00:36:45,875 on, you know, people's apps. 1099 00:36:46,208 --> 00:36:48,125 Um, but that's good. 1100 00:36:49,541 --> 00:36:51,041 We should, we should support that. 1101 00:36:51,125 --> 00:36:52,458 People should be able to have 1102 00:36:52,458 --> 00:36:54,416 privacy and then Yeah, we 1103 00:36:54,416 --> 00:36:56,208 trust them to pay their taxes 1104 00:36:56,208 --> 00:36:56,625 like they're supposed to. 1105 00:36:57,833 --> 00:36:59,166 Yeah, absolutely. 1106 00:36:59,166 --> 00:37:02,000 And um, also I think there's a lot 1107 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,250 to be said about the incentives. 1108 00:37:04,291 --> 00:37:05,958 A lot of people don't 1109 00:37:05,958 --> 00:37:07,208 actually have the incentives 1110 00:37:07,208 --> 00:37:09,458 to have a large stash of 1111 00:37:09,666 --> 00:37:11,541 Bitcoin that is not somehow 1112 00:37:11,541 --> 00:37:13,458 traceable because eventually 1113 00:37:13,875 --> 00:37:17,166 everyone wants to potentially. 1114 00:37:17,541 --> 00:37:19,333 Utilize their Bitcoin for something 1115 00:37:19,333 --> 00:37:20,666 in the future, whether it's buying 1116 00:37:20,666 --> 00:37:21,958 a house, whether it's taking a 1117 00:37:21,958 --> 00:37:24,291 holiday with your family, so you 1118 00:37:24,291 --> 00:37:25,791 don't wanna just all of a sudden 1119 00:37:25,791 --> 00:37:28,000 have a large sum of money that you 1120 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,666 can't explain where it came from. 1121 00:37:30,166 --> 00:37:33,958 Um, yeah, so I, I'm, I'm personally 1122 00:37:33,958 --> 00:37:35,708 not too concerned about that. 1123 00:37:36,583 --> 00:37:39,291 Um, but let's talk a bit a 1124 00:37:39,291 --> 00:37:41,166 little bit about Bitcoin culture. 1125 00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:42,291 What is the built Bitcoin 1126 00:37:42,291 --> 00:37:44,166 culture in your local community? 1127 00:37:45,250 --> 00:37:45,750 Um. 1128 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:47,750 Uh, it's interesting, I get a lot 1129 00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:50,250 of people passing through who, 1130 00:37:50,333 --> 00:37:52,208 uh, want to talk about Bitcoin. 1131 00:37:52,208 --> 00:37:53,541 They've, they've heard about the 1132 00:37:53,583 --> 00:37:55,125 Bitcoin Research Institute, or 1133 00:37:55,125 --> 00:37:57,583 they've read the book or heard, 1134 00:37:57,708 --> 00:37:59,291 heard me on a podcast or something 1135 00:37:59,291 --> 00:38:01,583 and I just had a guy pop into 1136 00:38:01,583 --> 00:38:03,583 my office last week, so it was 1137 00:38:03,583 --> 00:38:05,166 the, the first week of classes 1138 00:38:05,166 --> 00:38:07,333 and I thought he was a faculty 1139 00:38:07,333 --> 00:38:09,000 member or something like that. 1140 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,625 And he said, oh, I'm, 1141 00:38:09,666 --> 00:38:12,208 I'm moving from, uh. 1142 00:38:12,958 --> 00:38:13,708 Somewhere on the East 1143 00:38:13,708 --> 00:38:15,666 coast to, to San Francisco 1144 00:38:15,666 --> 00:38:17,083 to to work on Bitcoin. 1145 00:38:17,083 --> 00:38:19,541 And I was driving down the 1146 00:38:19,541 --> 00:38:20,625 highway and I saw signs for 1147 00:38:20,625 --> 00:38:21,958 Laramie and I thought of you. 1148 00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:26,083 So, um, so yeah, the, the culture 1149 00:38:26,083 --> 00:38:29,833 within Laramie is not, um, 1150 00:38:32,375 --> 00:38:33,833 not what it is, I think in 1151 00:38:33,833 --> 00:38:35,083 Nashville or San Francisco. 1152 00:38:35,083 --> 00:38:36,583 We don't have a, a central meeting 1153 00:38:36,583 --> 00:38:38,875 place that that draws people in. 1154 00:38:39,375 --> 00:38:41,000 Um, but there are. 1155 00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:43,000 Businesses that accept Bitcoin. 1156 00:38:43,041 --> 00:38:44,416 We have a center for blockchain 1157 00:38:44,416 --> 00:38:46,000 and digital innovation on campus 1158 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,583 as well that has a few bitcoiners. 1159 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,458 Uh, and you know, Stu, I 1160 00:38:51,458 --> 00:38:53,375 think students are being drawn 1161 00:38:53,375 --> 00:38:58,083 into this, uh, this idea that 1162 00:38:59,291 --> 00:39:00,958 Bitcoin is interesting and per 1163 00:39:01,041 --> 00:39:02,625 perhaps, potentially important 1164 00:39:02,666 --> 00:39:04,208 to the future, and maybe 1165 00:39:04,208 --> 00:39:05,000 they should learn about it. 1166 00:39:05,916 --> 00:39:06,375 Yeah. 1167 00:39:06,791 --> 00:39:07,875 And is there an appetite 1168 00:39:07,875 --> 00:39:09,041 from the university to 1169 00:39:09,041 --> 00:39:10,041 offer Bitcoin courses? 1170 00:39:12,458 --> 00:39:13,833 The university will offer 1171 00:39:13,833 --> 00:39:15,708 whatever courses will fill up. 1172 00:39:15,791 --> 00:39:16,541 For the most part, yes. 1173 00:39:16,541 --> 00:39:17,541 So we're given quite a bit of 1174 00:39:17,541 --> 00:39:19,625 autonomy in what we want to teach 1175 00:39:19,625 --> 00:39:21,166 as long as we can get enough 1176 00:39:21,166 --> 00:39:22,916 students to take the class. 1177 00:39:23,208 --> 00:39:25,541 I encountered no resistance at 1178 00:39:25,541 --> 00:39:28,375 all when I went from researching 1179 00:39:28,375 --> 00:39:29,708 metaphysics and philosophy of 1180 00:39:29,708 --> 00:39:31,583 religion to researching Bitcoin, 1181 00:39:32,375 --> 00:39:34,333 and I was a little surprised, 1182 00:39:34,333 --> 00:39:35,958 but, but really happy about that. 1183 00:39:37,416 --> 00:39:39,000 One of the things that tenure 1184 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,208 gives you is the freedom 1185 00:39:40,208 --> 00:39:43,333 to explore, potentially 1186 00:39:43,333 --> 00:39:45,416 fruitless, but potentially 1187 00:39:45,416 --> 00:39:47,333 very fruitful, uh, areas. 1188 00:39:47,333 --> 00:39:49,750 And so once I got tenure, I could 1189 00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:52,750 kind of do whatever I wanted and 1190 00:39:53,166 --> 00:39:55,833 I think they've seen how good 1191 00:39:55,875 --> 00:39:57,791 that has been for me and for the 1192 00:39:57,791 --> 00:39:59,166 department and the university. 1193 00:39:59,916 --> 00:40:00,666 So that, that's been 1194 00:40:00,666 --> 00:40:01,333 pretty cool to see. 1195 00:40:02,625 --> 00:40:02,916 Yeah. 1196 00:40:03,291 --> 00:40:03,500 Yeah. 1197 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:06,125 And Brad, what is your role at 1198 00:40:06,166 --> 00:40:08,333 the Bitcoin Research Institute? 1199 00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:11,958 We launched the Bitcoin 1200 00:40:11,958 --> 00:40:13,833 Research Institute, or I, I 1201 00:40:13,833 --> 00:40:14,875 launched the Bitcoin Research 1202 00:40:14,875 --> 00:40:18,458 Institute maybe two months ago. 1203 00:40:19,375 --> 00:40:21,250 And so we announced it a year ago 1204 00:40:21,250 --> 00:40:24,000 and it took a year for the, the 1205 00:40:24,041 --> 00:40:25,916 academic bureaucratic wheels to 1206 00:40:25,916 --> 00:40:30,375 grind through, but the institute. 1207 00:40:31,375 --> 00:40:35,500 Exists to produce academic 1208 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:36,666 research on Bitcoin. 1209 00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:39,750 One of the problems is that 1210 00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:41,916 Bitcoin, even though it to 1211 00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:43,166 many people, feels like it's 1212 00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:46,500 relatively new, um, in terms of 1213 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,583 like developments and interesting 1214 00:40:48,583 --> 00:40:50,916 new things, a lot of academic 1215 00:40:50,916 --> 00:40:54,916 researchers are drawn to the. 1216 00:40:55,791 --> 00:40:57,791 Cryptocurrency networks that 1217 00:40:57,791 --> 00:40:59,416 can do more things that you can 1218 00:40:59,416 --> 00:41:02,750 build more stuff on, and that 1219 00:41:02,916 --> 00:41:05,500 that also have more complexity 1220 00:41:06,250 --> 00:41:08,208 and are easier to break. 1221 00:41:08,916 --> 00:41:10,833 So there's not a whole lot 1222 00:41:10,833 --> 00:41:12,250 of academic research that's 1223 00:41:12,250 --> 00:41:13,625 done on Bitcoin outside of 1224 00:41:13,625 --> 00:41:14,750 things like price prediction. 1225 00:41:14,750 --> 00:41:16,750 So I, I get a Google scholar. 1226 00:41:17,666 --> 00:41:19,083 Email every day that tells 1227 00:41:19,083 --> 00:41:20,000 me the new papers that 1228 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,000 are published on Bitcoin. 1229 00:41:21,416 --> 00:41:23,125 And almost all of them are 1230 00:41:23,250 --> 00:41:24,833 some sort of price modeling. 1231 00:41:25,416 --> 00:41:26,666 And I think that's just about the 1232 00:41:26,666 --> 00:41:28,583 least interesting thing in Bitcoin. 1233 00:41:28,583 --> 00:41:30,125 The prices is do gonna do whatever 1234 00:41:30,125 --> 00:41:31,375 it's gonna do, and that's based 1235 00:41:31,375 --> 00:41:33,166 on whether people want it. 1236 00:41:33,666 --> 00:41:35,500 Um, but people want it based 1237 00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:37,083 on other, other things. 1238 00:41:37,583 --> 00:41:38,291 So. 1239 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,375 I wanted to build a place where 1240 00:41:41,541 --> 00:41:42,708 people who were interested in 1241 00:41:42,875 --> 00:41:44,291 Bitcoin but couldn't quite see 1242 00:41:44,291 --> 00:41:45,416 how it would fit into their 1243 00:41:45,416 --> 00:41:47,000 academic research, could get 1244 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,583 together and talk about it, get 1245 00:41:49,583 --> 00:41:51,833 feedback, build a community, 1246 00:41:52,208 --> 00:41:53,750 develop projects together. 1247 00:41:54,541 --> 00:41:55,250 So. 1248 00:41:55,875 --> 00:41:58,125 That's what I'm doing here 1249 00:41:58,291 --> 00:42:00,166 as the, so I'm the director 1250 00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:03,208 of the institute and I see my 1251 00:42:03,208 --> 00:42:05,666 role as mostly a facilitator. 1252 00:42:06,291 --> 00:42:08,750 I'm trying to identify people 1253 00:42:08,750 --> 00:42:10,875 who are working on Bitcoin in, 1254 00:42:11,083 --> 00:42:12,208 you know, places, scattered 1255 00:42:12,208 --> 00:42:14,291 throughout the world, and 1256 00:42:14,958 --> 00:42:16,875 bring them together to have 1257 00:42:16,875 --> 00:42:18,583 conversations and, and build 1258 00:42:18,583 --> 00:42:20,958 collaborative projects together. 1259 00:42:22,458 --> 00:42:22,666 Yeah. 1260 00:42:22,666 --> 00:42:23,666 That's awesome to hear. 1261 00:42:23,666 --> 00:42:25,125 I actually have come across, 1262 00:42:25,166 --> 00:42:27,583 um, some academic research 1263 00:42:27,583 --> 00:42:28,750 and I'll, I can tell you about 1264 00:42:28,750 --> 00:42:30,500 that after, after the podcast, 1265 00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:32,541 but it isn't price related. 1266 00:42:32,541 --> 00:42:34,000 Some of it is, but I think some 1267 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,708 of it is also like related to 1268 00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:38,750 energy consumption or adoption. 1269 00:42:38,791 --> 00:42:40,250 Um, yeah. 1270 00:42:40,250 --> 00:42:42,208 So is there a particular area 1271 00:42:42,208 --> 00:42:43,208 that you might be interested 1272 00:42:43,208 --> 00:42:44,416 from, like an academic 1273 00:42:44,416 --> 00:42:46,000 standpoint of what you, what 1274 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,500 kind of research you personally 1275 00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:49,250 would like to see coming out? 1276 00:42:51,333 --> 00:42:53,000 I think a lot of it depends 1277 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,000 on what the prevailing 1278 00:42:55,166 --> 00:42:57,291 discussion about Bitcoin is 1279 00:42:57,291 --> 00:42:58,541 in, in the wider culture. 1280 00:42:58,541 --> 00:43:00,500 So one of the reasons to do this 1281 00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:05,000 is that I think people when they 1282 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,041 hear about Bitcoin, don't quite 1283 00:43:07,041 --> 00:43:10,250 know where to go, and they'll often 1284 00:43:10,375 --> 00:43:12,291 hear about it from news media. 1285 00:43:12,958 --> 00:43:14,916 When news media wants to write 1286 00:43:14,916 --> 00:43:16,125 about Bitcoin, they don't. 1287 00:43:16,833 --> 00:43:18,583 Know who to trust. 1288 00:43:18,583 --> 00:43:20,000 And as I mentioned with 1289 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,458 individuals, there's all these 1290 00:43:21,458 --> 00:43:24,125 people with incentives to tell 1291 00:43:24,125 --> 00:43:27,333 you the truth, to, to say Bitcoin 1292 00:43:27,333 --> 00:43:28,708 is good, say Bitcoin is bad. 1293 00:43:28,750 --> 00:43:30,708 And so they tend to lean on 1294 00:43:30,708 --> 00:43:32,250 academic research thinking that 1295 00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:34,375 academic research is gonna be the 1296 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:36,625 the thing that's most likely to 1297 00:43:36,625 --> 00:43:39,708 be neutral and unbiased and fair. 1298 00:43:39,958 --> 00:43:41,666 And I think by and large 1299 00:43:41,666 --> 00:43:45,208 that's true, unfortunately. 1300 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:47,666 Bitcoin is very complicated and 1301 00:43:47,666 --> 00:43:49,333 difficult to understand, and a 1302 00:43:49,333 --> 00:43:51,208 lot of the scholarship that's been 1303 00:43:51,208 --> 00:43:53,958 done about Bitcoin has been done by 1304 00:43:53,958 --> 00:43:57,500 people who don't really understand 1305 00:43:59,083 --> 00:44:01,208 all of the moving parts and the 1306 00:44:01,208 --> 00:44:03,291 complexity of the blockchain and 1307 00:44:03,291 --> 00:44:05,958 the energy use and the market 1308 00:44:05,958 --> 00:44:08,125 price and miners and nodes 1309 00:44:08,125 --> 00:44:09,125 and all these sorts of things. 1310 00:44:09,166 --> 00:44:12,041 So in addition to producing. 1311 00:44:12,708 --> 00:44:13,625 Academic research on 1312 00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:14,333 Bitcoin and bringing 1313 00:44:14,333 --> 00:44:15,333 people together to do that. 1314 00:44:15,583 --> 00:44:18,416 I also want to help vet, um, 1315 00:44:18,666 --> 00:44:20,416 the research of people who are 1316 00:44:20,416 --> 00:44:21,666 writing papers about Bitcoin, 1317 00:44:21,666 --> 00:44:23,083 but, but kind of know that they 1318 00:44:23,083 --> 00:44:25,875 don't know enough about it and 1319 00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:27,583 sort of help them with that. 1320 00:44:27,583 --> 00:44:31,083 So for a long time it was. 1321 00:44:31,416 --> 00:44:33,958 Stuff about criminal behavior then 1322 00:44:33,958 --> 00:44:36,125 for a long time it was mining. 1323 00:44:36,333 --> 00:44:37,708 People were really worried about 1324 00:44:37,708 --> 00:44:39,375 the amount of energy Bitcoin was 1325 00:44:39,375 --> 00:44:41,833 using for a really short time. 1326 00:44:41,833 --> 00:44:44,333 It was, uh, hardware 1327 00:44:44,333 --> 00:44:47,416 device, uh, obscurity. 1328 00:44:47,416 --> 00:44:49,333 So the, the miners. 1329 00:44:50,166 --> 00:44:51,375 Don't last very long, and 1330 00:44:51,375 --> 00:44:52,583 then they go to landfills 1331 00:44:52,583 --> 00:44:53,625 and isn't that terrible? 1332 00:44:53,625 --> 00:44:54,666 We're filling up landfills 1333 00:44:54,666 --> 00:44:57,083 with Bitcoin miners and so 1334 00:44:57,083 --> 00:44:58,625 the, the public conversations 1335 00:44:58,625 --> 00:45:00,458 change and I, you never know 1336 00:45:00,583 --> 00:45:03,791 quite where it's gonna go next. 1337 00:45:04,291 --> 00:45:09,291 So I don't really know where 1338 00:45:09,291 --> 00:45:10,541 it's gonna go, and therefore 1339 00:45:10,750 --> 00:45:12,958 I want to have academic 1340 00:45:12,958 --> 00:45:13,958 research about everything. 1341 00:45:14,333 --> 00:45:15,250 And it, it's been one of 1342 00:45:15,250 --> 00:45:16,125 the things that's been cool 1343 00:45:16,125 --> 00:45:18,000 is getting emails from. 1344 00:45:18,958 --> 00:45:21,375 People who have heard me talk 1345 00:45:21,375 --> 00:45:23,041 about it at some point on, on 1346 00:45:23,041 --> 00:45:24,625 some podcast or something and 1347 00:45:24,625 --> 00:45:27,458 say, you know, I'm a, I'm a 1348 00:45:27,833 --> 00:45:30,416 tourism professor and I also 1349 00:45:30,416 --> 00:45:31,416 am interested in Bitcoin. 1350 00:45:31,583 --> 00:45:32,750 What projects could I do 1351 00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:34,083 about Bitcoin and tourism? 1352 00:45:35,166 --> 00:45:39,333 I was thinking like token something 1353 00:45:39,333 --> 00:45:40,250 or other, and I said, well, 1354 00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:42,041 what about, what about Bitcoin? 1355 00:45:42,041 --> 00:45:43,375 Circular economies? 1356 00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:45,416 And looking at places like 1357 00:45:45,416 --> 00:45:47,666 that and how much revenue they 1358 00:45:47,666 --> 00:45:52,000 take in versus nearby locations 1359 00:45:52,041 --> 00:45:53,375 that have many of the similar 1360 00:45:53,375 --> 00:45:54,458 features but don't accept Bitcoin. 1361 00:45:55,375 --> 00:45:57,291 Does, does accepting Bitcoin and 1362 00:45:57,291 --> 00:45:58,791 getting, like, what's the level 1363 00:45:58,791 --> 00:46:00,625 of, of local merchant adoption 1364 00:46:00,625 --> 00:46:02,416 that's needed to actually attract 1365 00:46:02,416 --> 00:46:05,125 people to fly across the world to 1366 00:46:05,125 --> 00:46:06,500 your place instead of somewhere 1367 00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:07,541 else because you have Bitcoin? 1368 00:46:08,958 --> 00:46:09,416 Um. 1369 00:46:10,208 --> 00:46:11,875 I talked to a marketing professor 1370 00:46:11,875 --> 00:46:13,208 at the, the Bitcoin Policy 1371 00:46:13,208 --> 00:46:16,916 Summit, uh, who has historically, 1372 00:46:16,916 --> 00:46:17,833 you know, done work on other 1373 00:46:17,833 --> 00:46:19,125 things, but is now interested in 1374 00:46:19,125 --> 00:46:20,458 Bitcoin and wants to figure out 1375 00:46:20,458 --> 00:46:22,166 a, a Bitcoin marketing project. 1376 00:46:22,541 --> 00:46:24,166 Um, political science, 1377 00:46:24,458 --> 00:46:25,125 you know, what's the 1378 00:46:25,125 --> 00:46:26,666 makeup of Bitcoin owners? 1379 00:46:26,666 --> 00:46:28,125 Do they tend to have a 1380 00:46:28,125 --> 00:46:29,916 certain demographic profile? 1381 00:46:30,375 --> 00:46:31,333 Uh, one of the things we're 1382 00:46:31,333 --> 00:46:32,625 finding from a whole lot of 1383 00:46:32,625 --> 00:46:33,666 surveys, which costs a lot 1384 00:46:33,666 --> 00:46:35,416 of money to do, is that. 1385 00:46:36,166 --> 00:46:38,041 Bitcoiners look very much 1386 00:46:38,083 --> 00:46:39,916 like the, the average person. 1387 00:46:40,666 --> 00:46:42,500 Um, they're not particularly, 1388 00:46:42,791 --> 00:46:44,375 uh, politically one 1389 00:46:44,375 --> 00:46:45,583 direction or the other. 1390 00:46:45,875 --> 00:46:47,083 They do tend to skew 1391 00:46:47,083 --> 00:46:49,000 more male and younger. 1392 00:46:49,416 --> 00:46:52,583 Um, but, and, and they tend to 1393 00:46:52,583 --> 00:46:54,583 skew, at least in the us, uh, 1394 00:46:54,666 --> 00:46:56,541 tend to be more racial minorities. 1395 00:46:56,875 --> 00:46:59,041 So the, the percentage of, 1396 00:46:59,333 --> 00:47:02,000 um, black and Latino bitcoin 1397 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:02,916 owners is higher than the 1398 00:47:02,916 --> 00:47:04,666 percentage of, of white owners. 1399 00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:07,291 Uh, so that, just interesting 1400 00:47:07,291 --> 00:47:08,708 things like that, that uh hmm. 1401 00:47:09,458 --> 00:47:11,333 Yeah, I'm, I'm always wanting 1402 00:47:11,333 --> 00:47:13,125 to, anything that's not about 1403 00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:14,708 Bitcoin price, I'm interested in. 1404 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,458 Yeah, I, I'm definitely 1405 00:47:17,458 --> 00:47:19,083 interested in that as well. 1406 00:47:19,083 --> 00:47:21,000 I would love to know more about, 1407 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,000 like, specifically the demographics 1408 00:47:23,041 --> 00:47:24,750 of people who hold Bitcoin. 1409 00:47:24,791 --> 00:47:25,875 I know there were two 1410 00:47:25,875 --> 00:47:27,375 research papers done. 1411 00:47:28,083 --> 00:47:30,458 Um, I don't wanna quote where 1412 00:47:30,458 --> 00:47:32,333 I think one was the US and one 1413 00:47:32,333 --> 00:47:33,583 could have even potentially been 1414 00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:36,041 Australia, but regardless of 1415 00:47:36,041 --> 00:47:39,333 that, um, it was, uh, done on. 1416 00:47:39,666 --> 00:47:41,708 People who own crypto. 1417 00:47:41,791 --> 00:47:42,625 So it was broad. 1418 00:47:42,625 --> 00:47:44,541 It wasn't just Bitcoin, um mm-hmm. 1419 00:47:44,708 --> 00:47:46,625 And how they score higher in 1420 00:47:46,625 --> 00:47:48,875 the dark tetrad personalities. 1421 00:47:49,333 --> 00:47:51,333 Um, and I looked at this 1422 00:47:51,333 --> 00:47:53,041 research paper, the, the. 1423 00:47:54,291 --> 00:47:55,750 Again, there was no distinction 1424 00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:57,375 made between Bitcoin and 1425 00:47:57,375 --> 00:47:59,500 other forms of um, currencies. 1426 00:48:00,083 --> 00:48:02,250 Uh, I think there was definitely 1427 00:48:02,291 --> 00:48:04,166 a bit of a bias in the way 1428 00:48:04,166 --> 00:48:06,000 that the study was formulated. 1429 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,458 And also the correlation 1430 00:48:08,458 --> 00:48:10,208 coefficient wasn't that strong. 1431 00:48:10,208 --> 00:48:12,500 So I was like, there was all 1432 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,000 these news articles that came 1433 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,500 out supporting it, but looking 1434 00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:16,416 at the study, I'm like, it's 1435 00:48:16,416 --> 00:48:18,500 kind of a bit meh, but I would 1436 00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:20,125 love to see more studies. 1437 00:48:20,125 --> 00:48:20,458 Um. 1438 00:48:21,041 --> 00:48:21,666 Yeah, academic 1439 00:48:21,666 --> 00:48:22,625 studies done in that. 1440 00:48:22,625 --> 00:48:23,416 'cause that's kind of what 1441 00:48:23,416 --> 00:48:24,375 I'm, I'm always interested 1442 00:48:24,375 --> 00:48:25,875 in the people side of things. 1443 00:48:26,458 --> 00:48:28,458 I, one of the, one of two things 1444 00:48:28,458 --> 00:48:30,083 that I've learned is, one, 1445 00:48:30,583 --> 00:48:32,791 it's really hard to ask exactly 1446 00:48:32,791 --> 00:48:34,416 the right questions to figure 1447 00:48:34,541 --> 00:48:35,625 these sorts of things out. 1448 00:48:35,625 --> 00:48:37,458 So you can ask people, for 1449 00:48:37,458 --> 00:48:38,750 example, do you own Bitcoin? 1450 00:48:39,666 --> 00:48:42,291 And a lot of people who don't 1451 00:48:42,291 --> 00:48:43,916 own Bitcoin will say yes 1452 00:48:44,291 --> 00:48:46,208 because they own Ethereum or 1453 00:48:46,208 --> 00:48:48,541 they own some other thing. 1454 00:48:49,083 --> 00:48:49,541 Um. 1455 00:48:49,875 --> 00:48:51,250 And they don't even know 1456 00:48:51,250 --> 00:48:52,583 enough about Bitcoin to know 1457 00:48:52,583 --> 00:48:54,041 that it's different from, from 1458 00:48:54,041 --> 00:48:54,916 these other sorts of things. 1459 00:48:55,166 --> 00:48:56,875 So, so the way that you word 1460 00:48:56,875 --> 00:48:58,500 questions in order to get answers 1461 00:48:58,541 --> 00:49:01,750 is, uh, really important and takes 1462 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,666 well-trained sociologists and 1463 00:49:04,666 --> 00:49:05,916 political scientists and people who 1464 00:49:05,916 --> 00:49:07,250 are used to crafting these kinds 1465 00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:09,291 of questions to know where people 1466 00:49:09,291 --> 00:49:10,625 are likely to misinterpret it 1467 00:49:10,625 --> 00:49:12,125 and, and somehow correct for that. 1468 00:49:12,583 --> 00:49:13,541 And then number two. 1469 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:16,416 People jump all over the 1470 00:49:16,416 --> 00:49:17,750 academic research that 1471 00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:19,291 confirms their biases. 1472 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,458 And so if you see a research 1473 00:49:23,458 --> 00:49:24,791 paper that says Bitcoin 1474 00:49:24,791 --> 00:49:27,458 owners largely reflect. 1475 00:49:27,875 --> 00:49:30,416 Normal, like standard demographics. 1476 00:49:30,583 --> 00:49:31,583 That's not very interesting. 1477 00:49:31,875 --> 00:49:33,666 If you get Bitcoin owners have 1478 00:49:33,666 --> 00:49:35,583 dark tetrad personality traits. 1479 00:49:35,916 --> 00:49:37,125 Ooh, that's interesting. 1480 00:49:37,875 --> 00:49:39,250 Um, and that's what we wanted. 1481 00:49:39,250 --> 00:49:40,541 We wanted bitcoin owners to 1482 00:49:40,541 --> 00:49:42,458 be the shadowy, super coders. 1483 00:49:42,791 --> 00:49:43,000 Psychopath. 1484 00:49:43,791 --> 00:49:44,250 Yeah. 1485 00:49:44,583 --> 00:49:46,125 So that's gonna get a lot 1486 00:49:46,125 --> 00:49:47,458 more traction, even if it 1487 00:49:47,458 --> 00:49:48,458 turns out not to be true. 1488 00:49:48,833 --> 00:49:50,250 And I think that's what happened 1489 00:49:50,250 --> 00:49:52,875 with, um, back in the day, 1490 00:49:52,875 --> 00:49:54,375 this, this bitcoin mining. 1491 00:49:54,750 --> 00:49:57,208 Paper that that went viral for a 1492 00:49:57,208 --> 00:49:59,375 while was being cited everywhere 1493 00:49:59,375 --> 00:50:02,500 on the likelihood that Bitcoin 1494 00:50:02,750 --> 00:50:04,958 would raise global emissions. 1495 00:50:05,041 --> 00:50:05,416 Uh, and thus. 1496 00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:08,125 Raised the temperature 1497 00:50:08,125 --> 00:50:10,166 of the planet 1.9 degrees 1498 00:50:10,166 --> 00:50:11,750 Celsius within five years. 1499 00:50:12,333 --> 00:50:13,958 Um, and it was based on a lot 1500 00:50:13,958 --> 00:50:15,833 of misunderstandings of Bitcoin. 1501 00:50:15,875 --> 00:50:17,125 Like not knowing that there was 1502 00:50:17,125 --> 00:50:18,958 a difficulty adjustment, not 1503 00:50:18,958 --> 00:50:21,666 knowing, uh, that blocks, you 1504 00:50:21,666 --> 00:50:24,041 know, had to come every 10 minutes. 1505 00:50:24,041 --> 00:50:25,000 You couldn't get faster and 1506 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,666 faster blocks, et cetera. 1507 00:50:27,125 --> 00:50:28,750 Um, so. 1508 00:50:29,583 --> 00:50:31,500 It is, you know, we can, we can 1509 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:33,875 put out as much academic research 1510 00:50:33,958 --> 00:50:35,708 that's correct and accurate as 1511 00:50:35,708 --> 00:50:37,375 we want, but it might still be 1512 00:50:37,375 --> 00:50:39,333 the case that people seize on. 1513 00:50:40,083 --> 00:50:42,375 The bad academic research because 1514 00:50:42,375 --> 00:50:43,750 that's what they want to be true. 1515 00:50:44,375 --> 00:50:45,750 And I'm not sure 1516 00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:47,208 how to change that. 1517 00:50:48,541 --> 00:50:48,750 Yeah. 1518 00:50:50,041 --> 00:50:51,583 And you possibly can't. 1519 00:50:52,166 --> 00:50:52,666 Maybe not. 1520 00:50:52,916 --> 00:50:53,541 Yeah, you can. 1521 00:50:53,541 --> 00:50:53,666 You 1522 00:50:53,666 --> 00:50:55,125 can only do what you can do. 1523 00:50:55,583 --> 00:50:56,333 Um, but, 1524 00:50:56,333 --> 00:50:57,583 but the more that they're, 1525 00:50:57,583 --> 00:50:59,291 the more that, that everyone's 1526 00:50:59,291 --> 00:51:00,416 friends and neighbors. 1527 00:51:00,791 --> 00:51:02,416 Are the ones who own Bitcoin, 1528 00:51:02,916 --> 00:51:05,125 the less sort of mysterious 1529 00:51:05,125 --> 00:51:07,208 and and bad it seems. 1530 00:51:07,791 --> 00:51:09,208 If everyone's just, if that's a 1531 00:51:09,208 --> 00:51:12,125 part of everyone's portfolio, uh, 1532 00:51:12,250 --> 00:51:14,916 you know, 2% or 1% or whatever, it 1533 00:51:14,916 --> 00:51:17,625 sort of demystifies the whole thing 1534 00:51:17,625 --> 00:51:18,916 in a way that I think is good. 1535 00:51:20,458 --> 00:51:22,541 Yeah, if we can just de 1536 00:51:22,541 --> 00:51:23,875 weird Bitcoin a little 1537 00:51:23,875 --> 00:51:25,208 bit, that would be great. 1538 00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:27,458 Like city doesn't become this 1539 00:51:27,458 --> 00:51:29,500 like dirty thing to talk about. 1540 00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:30,833 It's something we can all Yeah. 1541 00:51:30,875 --> 00:51:32,083 Have a conversation about. 1542 00:51:32,583 --> 00:51:34,625 But I'm curious, um. 1543 00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:36,583 I kind of asked you this, but 1544 00:51:36,583 --> 00:51:38,083 I wanna ask you the same thing, 1545 00:51:38,083 --> 00:51:40,208 but from a different angle is 1546 00:51:40,541 --> 00:51:42,125 obviously there's still a lot of, 1547 00:51:42,208 --> 00:51:45,041 um, fud about Bitcoin and a lot of 1548 00:51:45,041 --> 00:51:47,416 misconceptions and some things, you 1549 00:51:47,416 --> 00:51:50,333 know, might have, um, some merit 1550 00:51:50,333 --> 00:51:53,625 but are grossly misrepresented. 1551 00:51:53,916 --> 00:51:55,916 Uh, so is there anything, any 1552 00:51:55,916 --> 00:51:58,958 particular area or persistent 1553 00:51:58,958 --> 00:52:00,666 myths that you think need 1554 00:52:00,666 --> 00:52:02,500 more research right now? 1555 00:52:03,875 --> 00:52:05,041 There are some things that 1556 00:52:05,041 --> 00:52:08,750 if true would be, I think bad 1557 00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:10,833 for Bitcoin, but we don't have 1558 00:52:10,833 --> 00:52:12,708 nearly enough evidence of their 1559 00:52:12,708 --> 00:52:14,750 truth, and in some cases we have 1560 00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:15,708 evidence that they're not true. 1561 00:52:15,708 --> 00:52:19,583 So I think especially around 1562 00:52:19,625 --> 00:52:21,125 Bitcoin mining, there's this 1563 00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:23,833 question of how much energy 1564 00:52:24,083 --> 00:52:26,875 Bitcoin mining is using and. 1565 00:52:27,666 --> 00:52:29,375 The early fud. 1566 00:52:29,375 --> 00:52:30,625 So FUD for those who don't know 1567 00:52:30,625 --> 00:52:32,000 is fear, uncertainty and doubt. 1568 00:52:32,250 --> 00:52:34,333 The early FUD around Bitcoin 1569 00:52:34,333 --> 00:52:37,708 mining was just the number. 1570 00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:40,000 The number was bad all on its own. 1571 00:52:40,291 --> 00:52:41,541 Bitcoin is using as much 1572 00:52:41,541 --> 00:52:43,791 electricity as the Netherlands 1573 00:52:44,250 --> 00:52:46,125 or Sweden or whatever, and 1574 00:52:46,125 --> 00:52:47,916 that was just bad by itself. 1575 00:52:49,125 --> 00:52:51,833 Then it got more sophisticated. 1576 00:52:52,208 --> 00:52:53,416 Not only is Bitcoin 1577 00:52:53,416 --> 00:52:54,166 doing that, but. 1578 00:52:55,708 --> 00:52:58,125 It's using carbon and, and things 1579 00:52:58,125 --> 00:53:00,958 like that, and it's pricing out 1580 00:53:00,958 --> 00:53:05,333 people, so energy in certain 1581 00:53:05,333 --> 00:53:08,125 parts of, in my case the US 1582 00:53:08,166 --> 00:53:09,791 is, is getting more expensive 1583 00:53:09,791 --> 00:53:10,958 because of bitcoin mining. 1584 00:53:11,833 --> 00:53:13,333 So it got more and more 1585 00:53:13,333 --> 00:53:15,000 sophisticated, the objections 1586 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,041 to Bitcoin along the 1587 00:53:16,041 --> 00:53:17,708 lines of, of energy usage. 1588 00:53:18,166 --> 00:53:21,291 And if true, some of those things 1589 00:53:21,291 --> 00:53:23,666 would be bad, if it was really. 1590 00:53:24,125 --> 00:53:26,791 Stealing the energy from, 1591 00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:28,500 you know, people who 1592 00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:29,958 needed to heat their homes. 1593 00:53:30,375 --> 00:53:31,291 That would be terrible 1594 00:53:31,875 --> 00:53:33,250 and I wouldn't like that. 1595 00:53:35,125 --> 00:53:38,666 I think there's not necessarily 1596 00:53:38,666 --> 00:53:39,833 academic research, but, 1597 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,958 but reporting that shows 1598 00:53:42,375 --> 00:53:43,416 that that's not happening. 1599 00:53:43,875 --> 00:53:46,708 That it is. 1600 00:53:47,083 --> 00:53:48,000 Too expensive. 1601 00:53:48,041 --> 00:53:49,375 The, the Bitcoin mining is too 1602 00:53:49,375 --> 00:53:51,333 competitive, an industry to 1603 00:53:51,333 --> 00:53:54,833 pay market rates for energy in 1604 00:53:54,833 --> 00:53:56,791 most countries in the world. 1605 00:53:58,041 --> 00:54:00,458 So what's happening is that Bitcoin 1606 00:54:00,458 --> 00:54:01,958 mining is doing one of two things. 1607 00:54:01,958 --> 00:54:05,333 Either it's chasing non-rival risk, 1608 00:54:05,333 --> 00:54:07,583 energy, energy that that exists 1609 00:54:07,583 --> 00:54:08,875 in the world but couldn't be used 1610 00:54:08,875 --> 00:54:10,583 for anything else 'cause it's too 1611 00:54:10,583 --> 00:54:12,208 far away or something like that. 1612 00:54:12,833 --> 00:54:14,041 Uh, or. 1613 00:54:15,166 --> 00:54:16,375 Bitcoin miners are cutting 1614 00:54:16,375 --> 00:54:19,875 deals with energy providers to 1615 00:54:19,958 --> 00:54:23,166 take the excesses, and this is 1616 00:54:23,166 --> 00:54:24,666 what's happening in, in Texas. 1617 00:54:24,666 --> 00:54:26,833 For example, Bitcoin miners have 1618 00:54:26,833 --> 00:54:28,333 a deal that they'll, they'll 1619 00:54:28,333 --> 00:54:29,916 purchase a certain amount of 1620 00:54:29,916 --> 00:54:32,000 extra energy from the grid 1621 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,958 if if needed, at low rates. 1622 00:54:35,625 --> 00:54:37,375 And then when the grid is 1623 00:54:37,375 --> 00:54:38,625 being taxed because there's 1624 00:54:38,625 --> 00:54:39,458 a weather event, then 1625 00:54:39,458 --> 00:54:41,000 they'll turn off the miners. 1626 00:54:41,833 --> 00:54:43,250 You know, they can't compete 1627 00:54:43,291 --> 00:54:45,041 with people who need to in 1628 00:54:45,041 --> 00:54:46,708 Texas, in the middle of summer, 1629 00:54:46,791 --> 00:54:47,833 use it for air conditioning. 1630 00:54:48,208 --> 00:54:49,500 We're willing to pay a lot more 1631 00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:51,208 to be comfortable, and they're 1632 00:54:51,208 --> 00:54:53,041 having to compete with miners 1633 00:54:53,041 --> 00:54:54,958 across the world, many of whom 1634 00:54:54,958 --> 00:54:56,958 are getting free energy, so 1635 00:54:56,958 --> 00:54:58,083 they're not gonna pay that much. 1636 00:54:58,333 --> 00:54:58,875 So. 1637 00:54:59,875 --> 00:55:01,500 There is, there is academic 1638 00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:02,750 research being done on this. 1639 00:55:02,750 --> 00:55:04,666 I know Margot Paez, who's at, I 1640 00:55:04,666 --> 00:55:06,000 believe the Georgia Institute of 1641 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,583 Technology is, uh, doing her PhD 1642 00:55:09,583 --> 00:55:11,666 work, uh, specifically looking 1643 00:55:11,666 --> 00:55:14,458 at Bitcoin mining corporations. 1644 00:55:14,875 --> 00:55:16,041 But there's also a lot of 1645 00:55:16,041 --> 00:55:18,166 people just from the industry 1646 00:55:18,166 --> 00:55:20,291 who are telling us how. 1647 00:55:21,083 --> 00:55:22,375 Much hash rate, they're 1648 00:55:22,375 --> 00:55:23,791 contributing to the Bitcoin network 1649 00:55:23,791 --> 00:55:25,041 and where the energy's coming from. 1650 00:55:25,666 --> 00:55:28,500 I met someone from, uh, 1651 00:55:28,583 --> 00:55:30,250 who's working on this 1652 00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:31,958 massive dam in Paraguay. 1653 00:55:32,916 --> 00:55:34,625 They're having to sell the 1654 00:55:34,708 --> 00:55:35,791 Paraguay can't use as much 1655 00:55:35,791 --> 00:55:37,083 energy as the dam's producing. 1656 00:55:37,083 --> 00:55:38,458 They're having to sell most 1657 00:55:38,458 --> 00:55:39,791 of it to Brazil and they wanna 1658 00:55:39,833 --> 00:55:41,000 start mining Bitcoin with it. 1659 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:41,541 Mm-hmm. 1660 00:55:41,791 --> 00:55:44,250 I talked to a guy who's going 1661 00:55:44,250 --> 00:55:46,000 around villages in Kenya 1662 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,458 that have, uh, hydroelectric 1663 00:55:48,458 --> 00:55:49,958 power and setting up. 1664 00:55:50,708 --> 00:55:53,375 Power stations to harness the river 1665 00:55:53,875 --> 00:55:56,750 and paying off the construction by 1666 00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:58,166 mining Bitcoin with it, and then 1667 00:55:58,166 --> 00:56:01,291 also providing homes with, uh. 1668 00:56:01,708 --> 00:56:02,833 With power that, 1669 00:56:02,916 --> 00:56:04,000 that's really cool. 1670 00:56:04,041 --> 00:56:04,625 And 1671 00:56:04,750 --> 00:56:05,166 yeah, 1672 00:56:05,625 --> 00:56:07,833 hundreds of Kenyan villages 1673 00:56:07,833 --> 00:56:09,166 that didn't have electricity 1674 00:56:09,166 --> 00:56:10,333 now have electricity 1675 00:56:10,583 --> 00:56:11,791 because of Bitcoin mining. 1676 00:56:12,083 --> 00:56:13,500 And he's not, he makes 1677 00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:14,375 this point regularly. 1678 00:56:14,375 --> 00:56:16,000 He's like, I'm, I'm helping 1679 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,708 so many people that. 1680 00:56:18,083 --> 00:56:19,333 Everyone thinks it's a charity, 1681 00:56:20,166 --> 00:56:21,541 but I'm actually, I'm making money. 1682 00:56:21,541 --> 00:56:23,208 This is a profitable enterprise 1683 00:56:23,458 --> 00:56:24,875 and I could use, I could 1684 00:56:24,875 --> 00:56:26,208 have a hundred competitors 1685 00:56:26,208 --> 00:56:27,583 here and still make money. 1686 00:56:27,791 --> 00:56:29,208 People should come do this with me. 1687 00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:32,083 We can electrify Kenya, uh, 1688 00:56:32,166 --> 00:56:33,916 and, and much of the rest of 1689 00:56:33,916 --> 00:56:37,083 Africa while being profitable. 1690 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,625 So, um, I'd like to see 1691 00:56:40,625 --> 00:56:42,208 more, more academic research 1692 00:56:42,208 --> 00:56:44,250 done in, in these areas too. 1693 00:56:45,208 --> 00:56:46,208 Yeah, absolutely. 1694 00:56:46,208 --> 00:56:47,083 And those are such 1695 00:56:47,083 --> 00:56:48,166 feel good stories. 1696 00:56:48,166 --> 00:56:48,583 I love it. 1697 00:56:50,458 --> 00:56:52,041 Um, do you guys have a, 1698 00:56:52,041 --> 00:56:52,958 are you, are you going 1699 00:56:52,958 --> 00:56:54,375 to send out a newsletter 1700 00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:56,208 that is, that is on the agenda? 1701 00:56:56,208 --> 00:56:58,041 Yeah, so we hired, uh, one 1702 00:56:58,041 --> 00:56:59,125 of my co-authors on, on 1703 00:56:59,125 --> 00:57:00,250 the book, Andrew Bailey. 1704 00:57:00,750 --> 00:57:02,625 Um, we hired him to start this 1705 00:57:02,625 --> 00:57:04,500 fall and he and I were supposed 1706 00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:05,541 to do a lot of that together. 1707 00:57:05,625 --> 00:57:08,000 He, uh, is unable to move 1708 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,208 here until next year. 1709 00:57:09,208 --> 00:57:10,916 So while I'm running 1710 00:57:10,916 --> 00:57:11,875 things on my own. 1711 00:57:12,250 --> 00:57:13,416 A newsletter is not 1712 00:57:13,458 --> 00:57:14,666 in the, in the cards. 1713 00:57:15,208 --> 00:57:16,583 Um, but hopefully starting 1714 00:57:16,583 --> 00:57:17,875 next year when there's two of 1715 00:57:17,875 --> 00:57:20,958 us here, uh, then that'll be 1716 00:57:20,958 --> 00:57:22,500 one of the, the early things 1717 00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:23,291 that we'll want to get started 1718 00:57:23,291 --> 00:57:23,375 with. 1719 00:57:23,375 --> 00:57:24,958 Yeah, yeah. 1720 00:57:24,958 --> 00:57:25,708 Makes sense. 1721 00:57:25,708 --> 00:57:26,458 Makes sense. 1722 00:57:26,916 --> 00:57:28,583 Um, yeah. 1723 00:57:28,583 --> 00:57:30,208 Do you have any final 1724 00:57:30,208 --> 00:57:32,041 thoughts or, or messages 1725 00:57:32,041 --> 00:57:33,208 that you'd like to share? 1726 00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:36,083 Um, I think the, the 1727 00:57:36,083 --> 00:57:37,458 main takeaway is. 1728 00:57:38,041 --> 00:57:40,041 That everyone evaluates Bitcoin 1729 00:57:40,041 --> 00:57:42,083 from their own perspective. 1730 00:57:42,625 --> 00:57:44,000 And I think it's just really 1731 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,958 important to remember that you 1732 00:57:45,958 --> 00:57:47,958 are one of 8 billion people in 1733 00:57:47,958 --> 00:57:50,541 the world and the vast majority 1734 00:57:50,541 --> 00:57:53,500 of people live lives that don't 1735 00:57:53,500 --> 00:57:54,958 look anything like your life 1736 00:57:55,583 --> 00:57:58,333 and try to figure out when 1737 00:57:58,333 --> 00:57:59,916 you're evaluating things like 1738 00:57:59,916 --> 00:58:02,166 Bitcoin, that's a global thing. 1739 00:58:02,583 --> 00:58:03,041 Uh. 1740 00:58:03,625 --> 00:58:05,916 How they might use it and, you 1741 00:58:05,916 --> 00:58:07,416 know, pay, pay attention to them. 1742 00:58:07,958 --> 00:58:08,833 And for a lot of them you can 1743 00:58:08,833 --> 00:58:10,541 actually find out stories of, 1744 00:58:10,583 --> 00:58:12,208 of how people in other countries 1745 00:58:12,208 --> 00:58:13,375 who live lives very differently 1746 00:58:13,375 --> 00:58:14,666 than yours are using Bitcoin. 1747 00:58:15,250 --> 00:58:16,583 And so that, that's important to 1748 00:58:16,583 --> 00:58:18,250 keep in mind as you're thinking 1749 00:58:18,250 --> 00:58:19,291 through what you think about it. 1750 00:58:20,791 --> 00:58:22,083 Yeah, absolutely. 1751 00:58:22,083 --> 00:58:22,500 Love it. 1752 00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:23,875 Such a powerful message. 1753 00:58:23,875 --> 00:58:25,708 Thank you so much for your time. 1754 00:58:26,333 --> 00:58:27,000 Yeah, absolutely. 1755 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:27,500 Thanks for having me.