1 00:00:01,246 --> 00:00:04,533 [Arvid Kahl]: Welcome to Arvid and Tyler Catch Up. I'm Arvid. 2 00:00:05,515 --> 00:00:09,005 [Tyler Tringas]: I'm Tyler. Let's catch up. What's up with you man? 3 00:00:09,882 --> 00:00:14,504 [Arvid Kahl]: Oh, I've been thinking a lot about writing this week. So coming off of MicroConf, 4 00:00:14,664 --> 00:00:20,127 [Arvid Kahl]: I've been kind of reading a lot. But on the trip, I brought one book, which 5 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:20,207 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 6 00:00:20,207 --> 00:00:21,995 [Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know, [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 7 00:00:21,995 --> 00:00:22,055 [Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know, 8 00:00:22,055 --> 00:00:22,476 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know, 9 00:00:22,476 --> 00:00:22,609 [Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know, 10 00:00:22,649 --> 00:00:23,649 [Arvid Kahl]: The Pathless Path, 11 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:24,149 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 12 00:00:24,149 --> 00:00:24,421 [Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well. It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 13 00:00:24,421 --> 00:00:28,292 [Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well. It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of 14 00:00:28,472 --> 00:00:30,443 [Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really cool, and I've been reading 15 00:00:30,443 --> 00:00:30,553 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really cool, and I've been reading 16 00:00:30,553 --> 00:00:30,573 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 17 00:00:30,573 --> 00:00:30,647 [Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 18 00:00:30,647 --> 00:00:34,615 [Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the 19 00:00:34,675 --> 00:00:41,468 [Arvid Kahl]: 25 copies in the whole world of Rob Walling's new book. The SAS playbook got 20 00:00:41,488 --> 00:00:45,431 [Arvid Kahl]: that here, which is also really well done. Like, it's really for a self-published 21 00:00:45,451 --> 00:00:50,655 [Arvid Kahl]: book. And those I find inspirational in particular. It's super high quality. The 22 00:00:50,675 --> 00:00:53,958 [Arvid Kahl]: design is cool. The dust jacket is really nice. Well designed. I talked to 23 00:00:53,978 --> 00:00:58,602 [Arvid Kahl]: Rob about this. And he spent quite some money on just getting it right, particularly 24 00:00:58,642 --> 00:01:03,466 [Arvid Kahl]: compared to his first book, Start Small, Stay Small, which has the cover design 25 00:01:04,087 --> 00:01:08,543 [Arvid Kahl]: skill level of, I think he admitted that like a a 10 year old because he has no 26 00:01:08,603 --> 00:01:10,224 [Arvid Kahl]: idea what he was doing back then or had no 27 00:01:10,292 --> 00:01:10,304 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh 28 00:01:10,304 --> 00:01:10,354 [Arvid Kahl]: idea. [Tyler Tringas]: Uh 29 00:01:10,354 --> 00:01:10,395 [Arvid Kahl]: idea. 30 00:01:10,395 --> 00:01:10,580 [Tyler Tringas]: huh. [Arvid Kahl]: idea. 31 00:01:10,625 --> 00:01:13,507 [Arvid Kahl]: And it looks like just somebody opened a Word document, printed out a page, 32 00:01:13,747 --> 00:01:17,571 [Arvid Kahl]: and that's now the cover. But no, it's just it's a great book. It just looks 33 00:01:17,611 --> 00:01:17,751 [Arvid Kahl]: like 34 00:01:17,751 --> 00:01:17,811 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh. [Arvid Kahl]: like 35 00:01:17,811 --> 00:01:17,982 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh. 36 00:01:18,091 --> 00:01:23,116 [Arvid Kahl]: it's self-published. This one does not. And I've been inspired to keep writing 37 00:01:23,276 --> 00:01:26,919 [Arvid Kahl]: because as a writer myself, I just want to write cool stuff and seeing books. 38 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,384 [Arvid Kahl]: I'm going to thinking more about writing books. So I was talking to Brennan 39 00:01:31,404 --> 00:01:36,127 [Arvid Kahl]: Dunn, who has a book coming out as well. And he's been sending out, you know, 40 00:01:36,187 --> 00:01:40,430 [Arvid Kahl]: early advanced copies to his friends, which for some reason includes me. And I'm 41 00:01:40,510 --> 00:01:44,252 [Arvid Kahl]: really happy about that. So I got to read his book and that was inspirational. 42 00:01:44,593 --> 00:01:47,975 [Arvid Kahl]: So I chatted with Brennan about like how he got this publishing deal, which 43 00:01:47,995 --> 00:01:50,449 [Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this book because 44 00:01:50,449 --> 00:01:50,556 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this book because 45 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:50,637 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 46 00:01:50,637 --> 00:01:50,653 [Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And I've been talking to a lot of people who've [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 47 00:01:50,653 --> 00:01:52,938 [Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And I've been talking to a lot of people who've 48 00:01:52,978 --> 00:01:58,021 [Arvid Kahl]: been self publishing in the past, but he found a publisher and I thought, well, 49 00:01:58,366 --> 00:02:02,569 [Arvid Kahl]: My next one is going to be hopefully about building in public, something that, besides 50 00:02:02,689 --> 00:02:05,902 [Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which is more SaaS focused, building 51 00:02:05,902 --> 00:02:06,031 [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. [Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which is more SaaS focused, building 52 00:02:06,031 --> 00:02:06,064 [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. 53 00:02:06,071 --> 00:02:10,794 [Arvid Kahl]: public is more audience, community building, and just live the life that you want 54 00:02:10,814 --> 00:02:14,277 [Arvid Kahl]: to live and build your business and your brand at the same time kind of focused. 55 00:02:15,017 --> 00:02:18,680 [Arvid Kahl]: So I've been thinking, do I need a publisher? Do I want a publisher? Do I want 56 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:22,103 [Arvid Kahl]: to keep self-publishing? That has worked well for me over the past. Or do 57 00:02:22,183 --> 00:02:26,185 [Arvid Kahl]: I want to see if there is some other way of getting the message out there? 58 00:02:26,570 --> 00:02:29,712 [Arvid Kahl]: because both what you and I have been doing and sharing our thoughts on this 59 00:02:29,752 --> 00:02:35,617 [Arvid Kahl]: podcast and on on the internet and on Twitter and stuff that is building in 60 00:02:35,637 --> 00:02:39,920 [Arvid Kahl]: public and it has been working pretty well for both of us. So maybe we should 61 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:45,264 [Arvid Kahl]: I thought we should get this kind of story and by we I mean myself out further 62 00:02:45,325 --> 00:02:49,188 [Arvid Kahl]: right into the bigger world that is not just indie hackers and not just creators 63 00:02:49,208 --> 00:02:52,722 [Arvid Kahl]: but somebody else and for that a publisher would be cool. but maybe it is 64 00:02:52,802 --> 00:02:56,604 [Arvid Kahl]: just for indie hackers and creators or they would benefit the most from this. So 65 00:02:56,684 --> 00:03:00,305 [Arvid Kahl]: I should kind of keep it in this community. I've been thinking a lot about this. 66 00:03:00,345 --> 00:03:01,105 [Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think 67 00:03:01,105 --> 00:03:01,146 [Tyler Tringas]: in. [Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think 68 00:03:01,146 --> 00:03:01,226 [Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think 69 00:03:01,266 --> 00:03:04,927 [Arvid Kahl]: I have answers. I talked to a couple of people, Brandon introduced me to 70 00:03:05,027 --> 00:03:10,910 [Arvid Kahl]: people who work in the publishing industry and, you know, deal with agents and 71 00:03:10,970 --> 00:03:15,091 [Arvid Kahl]: getting book proposals out. And I talked to one guy who's been doing book proposals 72 00:03:15,151 --> 00:03:20,586 [Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals. And he kind of tried to steer me away. from 73 00:03:20,586 --> 00:03:20,654 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals. And he kind of tried to steer me away. from 74 00:03:20,654 --> 00:03:20,734 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 75 00:03:20,734 --> 00:03:20,769 [Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 76 00:03:20,769 --> 00:03:25,636 [Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way 77 00:03:25,936 --> 00:03:29,717 [Arvid Kahl]: of getting the book out there between self-publishing and regular old traditional 78 00:03:29,737 --> 00:03:33,339 [Arvid Kahl]: publishing, there seem to be ways to do hybrid publishing where essentially you 79 00:03:33,419 --> 00:03:36,840 [Arvid Kahl]: pay people to be your editors instead of having the publisher pay them, right? 80 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,322 [Arvid Kahl]: Publishers are kind of VC in a way, they try to get, like, make bets on books 81 00:03:41,382 --> 00:03:44,623 [Arvid Kahl]: and pay for everything and then you get an advance and maybe you get royalties 82 00:03:44,663 --> 00:03:48,662 [Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially bootstrapping without any 83 00:03:48,662 --> 00:03:48,803 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially bootstrapping without any 84 00:03:48,825 --> 00:03:53,108 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of funding. And then there's in between, funny enough, like there is a comfund 85 00:03:53,148 --> 00:03:56,107 [Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right? 86 00:03:56,107 --> 00:03:56,148 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm. [Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right? 87 00:03:56,148 --> 00:03:56,191 [Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right? 88 00:03:56,211 --> 00:03:59,754 [Arvid Kahl]: There's the kind of this, okay, yeah, we take you on, we give you like some 89 00:03:59,954 --> 00:04:05,078 [Arvid Kahl]: access to this kind of network and we help you through, it costs you pretty 90 00:04:05,138 --> 00:04:06,879 [Arvid Kahl]: little apparently. I haven't really looked 91 00:04:06,892 --> 00:04:06,919 [Tyler Tringas]: What's 92 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:07,058 [Arvid Kahl]: into this [Tyler Tringas]: What's 93 00:04:07,058 --> 00:04:07,100 [Arvid Kahl]: into this 94 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:07,240 [Tyler Tringas]: it called? [Arvid Kahl]: into this 95 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:07,300 [Tyler Tringas]: it called? 96 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:07,453 [Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact [Tyler Tringas]: it called? 97 00:04:07,453 --> 00:04:13,605 [Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact 98 00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:15,050 [Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is, like they don't 99 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:15,106 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is, like they don't 100 00:04:15,106 --> 00:04:15,146 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 101 00:04:15,146 --> 00:04:15,192 [Arvid Kahl]: pay [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 102 00:04:15,192 --> 00:04:15,233 [Arvid Kahl]: pay 103 00:04:15,233 --> 00:04:15,246 [Tyler Tringas]: yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: pay 104 00:04:15,246 --> 00:04:15,266 [Tyler Tringas]: yeah, 105 00:04:15,266 --> 00:04:15,395 [Arvid Kahl]: you money, [Tyler Tringas]: yeah, 106 00:04:15,395 --> 00:04:15,476 [Arvid Kahl]: you money, 107 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:15,646 [Tyler Tringas]: I get [Arvid Kahl]: you money, 108 00:04:15,646 --> 00:04:15,666 [Tyler Tringas]: I get 109 00:04:15,666 --> 00:04:15,739 [Arvid Kahl]: you [Tyler Tringas]: I get 110 00:04:15,739 --> 00:04:15,766 [Arvid Kahl]: you 111 00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:15,806 [Tyler Tringas]: it. 112 00:04:15,806 --> 00:04:15,840 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service provider, but the idea is that they have the [Tyler Tringas]: it. 113 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,889 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service provider, but the idea is that they have the 114 00:04:18,909 --> 00:04:23,505 [Arvid Kahl]: logistics. and a distribution to get your book into, I don't know what traditional 115 00:04:23,545 --> 00:04:26,528 [Arvid Kahl]: publishers would do, get you into airports, get you into bookstores, right? 116 00:04:26,808 --> 00:04:26,871 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm 117 00:04:26,948 --> 00:04:30,571 [Arvid Kahl]: What is always extremely hard for people like me because my books are print 118 00:04:30,631 --> 00:04:31,732 [Arvid Kahl]: on demand. So I'm 119 00:04:31,736 --> 00:04:31,752 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 120 00:04:31,752 --> 00:04:32,030 [Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 121 00:04:32,030 --> 00:04:35,636 [Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody 122 00:04:35,656 --> 00:04:40,400 [Arvid Kahl]: who puts them in there. So all of this is currently happening as I'm speaking 123 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:43,643 [Arvid Kahl]: about it. I'm still trying to figure out where I'm going. Honestly, I just 124 00:04:43,663 --> 00:04:46,942 [Arvid Kahl]: wanna write. I don't even wanna deal with this kind of stuff because... as 125 00:04:47,162 --> 00:04:50,223 [Arvid Kahl]: it's kind of like a software developer, you don't want to do marketing as a writer, 126 00:04:50,243 --> 00:04:52,762 [Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind of operational stuff either, right? Somebody 127 00:04:52,762 --> 00:04:52,924 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind of operational stuff either, right? Somebody 128 00:04:52,924 --> 00:04:52,984 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 129 00:04:52,984 --> 00:04:53,044 [Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 130 00:04:53,044 --> 00:04:57,907 [Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a 131 00:04:57,947 --> 00:05:00,238 [Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different hats. And 132 00:05:00,238 --> 00:05:00,308 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different hats. And 133 00:05:00,308 --> 00:05:00,348 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 134 00:05:00,348 --> 00:05:00,401 [Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal amount of slightly different hats. [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 135 00:05:00,401 --> 00:05:03,249 [Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal amount of slightly different hats. 136 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:03,658 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm 137 00:05:03,809 --> 00:05:06,791 [Arvid Kahl]: And that's been that's been my week essentially trying to figure out where 138 00:05:06,831 --> 00:05:11,513 [Arvid Kahl]: I want to go with this still undecided. If you have any opinions on this, as somebody 139 00:05:11,553 --> 00:05:13,033 [Arvid Kahl]: who almost published a book. 140 00:05:14,207 --> 00:05:14,390 [Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry. 141 00:05:14,390 --> 00:05:14,656 [Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS [Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry. 142 00:05:14,656 --> 00:05:18,574 [Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS 143 00:05:18,594 --> 00:05:21,757 [Arvid Kahl]: stuff as well. If you have any opinions on this, please, please share. 144 00:05:22,570 --> 00:05:26,491 [Tyler Tringas]: Well, I was curious, actually, as you were talking about this, whether build 145 00:05:26,531 --> 00:05:32,232 [Tyler Tringas]: in public might be the exact worst topic to pitch to a book publisher, because 146 00:05:32,292 --> 00:05:37,414 [Tyler Tringas]: it's kind of, it's kind of literally talking about the strategy to avoid 147 00:05:37,474 --> 00:05:39,295 [Tyler Tringas]: having to work with a book publisher 148 00:05:40,065 --> 00:05:40,155 [Arvid Kahl]: I guess. 149 00:05:40,155 --> 00:05:40,415 [Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean, I know that's not exactly the intent of it, [Arvid Kahl]: I guess. 150 00:05:40,415 --> 00:05:43,696 [Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean, I know that's not exactly the intent of it, 151 00:05:43,736 --> 00:05:47,837 [Tyler Tringas]: but I could imagine being on the side of a book publisher and basically 152 00:05:47,877 --> 00:05:50,914 [Tyler Tringas]: reading this as like. You want to write a book about how to not have to work 153 00:05:50,934 --> 00:05:53,610 [Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want me to publish it? 154 00:05:53,610 --> 00:05:53,932 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want me to publish it? 155 00:05:53,932 --> 00:05:54,421 [Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want me to publish it? 156 00:05:54,661 --> 00:05:54,961 [Tyler Tringas]: This might 157 00:05:54,961 --> 00:05:55,162 [Arvid Kahl]: that's [Tyler Tringas]: This might 158 00:05:55,162 --> 00:05:55,203 [Arvid Kahl]: that's 159 00:05:55,222 --> 00:05:55,243 [Tyler Tringas]: not 160 00:05:55,243 --> 00:05:55,443 [Arvid Kahl]: right. [Tyler Tringas]: not 161 00:05:55,443 --> 00:05:55,465 [Arvid Kahl]: right. 162 00:05:55,483 --> 00:05:59,551 [Tyler Tringas]: be the one to be your test case for for working with a publisher. I don't 163 00:05:59,571 --> 00:06:00,553 [Tyler Tringas]: know. What do you think about that? 164 00:06:01,098 --> 00:06:05,066 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public has this effect, right? Like you're kind 165 00:06:05,066 --> 00:06:05,179 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public has this effect, right? Like you're kind 166 00:06:05,179 --> 00:06:05,239 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 167 00:06:05,239 --> 00:06:05,351 [Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey and you, everything, and you have to be honest [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 168 00:06:05,351 --> 00:06:09,361 [Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey and you, everything, and you have to be honest 169 00:06:09,401 --> 00:06:13,823 [Arvid Kahl]: too, which in an industry that is about like ranking high on lists like the 170 00:06:13,843 --> 00:06:18,085 [Arvid Kahl]: New York Times bestseller list or whatever industry publication you can be 171 00:06:18,165 --> 00:06:22,626 [Arvid Kahl]: in, there's a lot of glorification of hero figures, like writers that the whole 172 00:06:22,947 --> 00:06:27,188 [Arvid Kahl]: Stephen King on Twitter situation like has been blown up in all the periodicals. 173 00:06:27,508 --> 00:06:27,649 [Arvid Kahl]: So 174 00:06:27,691 --> 00:06:27,958 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 175 00:06:28,009 --> 00:06:32,648 [Arvid Kahl]: as a, I'm kind of, I'm a, want to be a sci-fi writer, so I'm subscribed to 176 00:06:32,688 --> 00:06:37,371 [Arvid Kahl]: Locust magazine, which is kind of the industry publication for all kinds of 177 00:06:37,752 --> 00:06:40,734 [Arvid Kahl]: sci-fi, who sells which book to watch publisher and kind of stuff. It's interesting 178 00:06:40,774 --> 00:06:44,857 [Arvid Kahl]: to read, but I don't write much in that regard. I just, you know, get the information 179 00:06:44,958 --> 00:06:45,478 [Arvid Kahl]: in and 180 00:06:45,602 --> 00:06:45,778 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 181 00:06:45,778 --> 00:06:45,854 [Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship in those magazines too, because there are names [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 182 00:06:45,854 --> 00:06:49,601 [Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship in those magazines too, because there are names 183 00:06:49,621 --> 00:06:53,164 [Arvid Kahl]: that you know, like Brandon Sanderson, big fantasy writer, and when he does something 184 00:06:53,204 --> 00:06:57,508 [Arvid Kahl]: cool he gets a full page article, right? It's very focused on the celebrities, 185 00:06:57,848 --> 00:07:01,875 [Arvid Kahl]: which is not something I necessarily want. And I guess I told that person that as 186 00:07:01,915 --> 00:07:06,498 [Arvid Kahl]: well, like who was trying to figure out if I should be working with a big publisher. 187 00:07:06,579 --> 00:07:09,181 [Arvid Kahl]: And I told him, I don't want to deal with all this kind of hero stuff or this 188 00:07:09,241 --> 00:07:13,283 [Arvid Kahl]: going on TV for like, you know, recommending your book on a morning TV show 189 00:07:13,303 --> 00:07:18,127 [Arvid Kahl]: because it's supposed to help everybody in every audience possible. There 190 00:07:18,207 --> 00:07:22,009 [Arvid Kahl]: is a disconnect because building in public is a niche thing. Like you wanna 191 00:07:22,049 --> 00:07:25,812 [Arvid Kahl]: be in your community sharing your story with the people who matter and you don't 192 00:07:25,832 --> 00:07:29,594 [Arvid Kahl]: wanna be on national TV in the morning in one of these morning shows, talking 193 00:07:29,634 --> 00:07:32,782 [Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at the TV at that time. Right, there's 194 00:07:32,782 --> 00:07:32,937 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at the TV at that time. Right, there's 195 00:07:32,937 --> 00:07:33,097 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah. 196 00:07:33,097 --> 00:07:33,124 [Arvid Kahl]: also [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah. 197 00:07:33,124 --> 00:07:33,145 [Arvid Kahl]: also 198 00:07:33,145 --> 00:07:33,205 [Tyler Tringas]: I'm [Arvid Kahl]: also 199 00:07:33,205 --> 00:07:33,317 [Arvid Kahl]: also 200 00:07:33,337 --> 00:07:34,093 [Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there. 201 00:07:34,093 --> 00:07:34,217 [Tyler Tringas]: gonna [Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there. 202 00:07:34,217 --> 00:07:34,870 [Tyler Tringas]: gonna 203 00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:34,900 [Arvid Kahl]: And [Tyler Tringas]: gonna 204 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:34,920 [Arvid Kahl]: And 205 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:35,050 [Tyler Tringas]: go to bed. [Arvid Kahl]: And 206 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:35,122 [Tyler Tringas]: go to bed. 207 00:07:35,430 --> 00:07:39,913 [Arvid Kahl]: I've seen people like Ryan Holiday on national TV stuff is like, I don't want 208 00:07:39,953 --> 00:07:41,091 [Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James 209 00:07:41,091 --> 00:07:41,193 [Tyler Tringas]: Why [Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James 210 00:07:41,193 --> 00:07:41,217 [Tyler Tringas]: Why 211 00:07:41,233 --> 00:07:41,259 [Arvid Kahl]: Clear, 212 00:07:41,259 --> 00:07:41,469 [Tyler Tringas]: not? [Arvid Kahl]: Clear, 213 00:07:41,469 --> 00:07:41,554 [Arvid Kahl]: Clear, 214 00:07:42,274 --> 00:07:46,076 [Arvid Kahl]: right? But, but first off, I don't want to get up early in the morning. That's 215 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:50,899 [Arvid Kahl]: one of the biggest problems. But I honestly like James Clear is an example. 216 00:07:50,939 --> 00:07:56,062 [Arvid Kahl]: And I talked to the guy who writes these book proposals about this. If you go 217 00:07:56,102 --> 00:08:00,165 [Arvid Kahl]: to like a PTA meeting with you have kids in school and you go like to the 218 00:08:00,285 --> 00:08:04,702 [Arvid Kahl]: other. with the other parents, you go to a PTA meeting and you ask people 219 00:08:04,882 --> 00:08:08,603 [Arvid Kahl]: who wants to build in public. Like nobody is going to, nobody even wants 220 00:08:08,623 --> 00:08:11,704 [Arvid Kahl]: to be an entrepreneur or very few people in that community want to be an 221 00:08:11,764 --> 00:08:16,286 [Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneur. But if you ask them who wants to lose weight and like half of them 222 00:08:16,486 --> 00:08:19,546 [Arvid Kahl]: raised their hands and you said, well, I have the perfect habit forming book 223 00:08:19,566 --> 00:08:22,247 [Arvid Kahl]: for you. This is Atomic Habits by James Clear. Right? 224 00:08:22,346 --> 00:08:22,507 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 225 00:08:22,507 --> 00:08:22,528 [Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they need. They need the James Clear stuff, the [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 226 00:08:22,528 --> 00:08:25,728 [Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they need. They need the James Clear stuff, the 227 00:08:25,968 --> 00:08:30,369 [Arvid Kahl]: highly generic things that are somewhat ish applicable to every single situation. 228 00:08:31,118 --> 00:08:33,262 [Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same 229 00:08:33,262 --> 00:08:33,502 [Tyler Tringas]: I don't [Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same 230 00:08:33,502 --> 00:08:33,722 [Tyler Tringas]: I don't 231 00:08:33,722 --> 00:08:33,762 [Arvid Kahl]: way. 232 00:08:33,762 --> 00:08:35,325 [Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be [Arvid Kahl]: way. 233 00:08:35,325 --> 00:08:35,345 [Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be 234 00:08:35,345 --> 00:08:35,363 [Arvid Kahl]: That's [Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be 235 00:08:35,363 --> 00:08:35,403 [Arvid Kahl]: That's 236 00:08:35,403 --> 00:08:35,545 [Tyler Tringas]: selling [Arvid Kahl]: That's 237 00:08:35,545 --> 00:08:35,565 [Tyler Tringas]: selling 238 00:08:35,565 --> 00:08:35,723 [Arvid Kahl]: what they [Tyler Tringas]: selling 239 00:08:35,723 --> 00:08:35,803 [Arvid Kahl]: what they 240 00:08:35,803 --> 00:08:35,886 [Tyler Tringas]: yourself [Arvid Kahl]: what they 241 00:08:35,886 --> 00:08:35,926 [Tyler Tringas]: yourself 242 00:08:35,926 --> 00:08:36,163 [Arvid Kahl]: say though. [Tyler Tringas]: yourself 243 00:08:36,163 --> 00:08:36,204 [Arvid Kahl]: say though. 244 00:08:36,204 --> 00:08:36,346 [Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I think if you asked people, you know, who wants [Arvid Kahl]: say though. 245 00:08:36,346 --> 00:08:41,907 [Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I think if you asked people, you know, who wants 246 00:08:41,947 --> 00:08:45,650 [Tyler Tringas]: to find a way to build that project that you've been thinking about and 247 00:08:45,670 --> 00:08:49,653 [Tyler Tringas]: haven't found a way to get started on, if you framed it slightly different, 248 00:08:49,893 --> 00:08:54,616 [Tyler Tringas]: like, hey, I have a method that you create public accountability and then 249 00:08:54,676 --> 00:08:59,980 [Tyler Tringas]: you are able to get started without anyone's permission, I think that would 250 00:09:00,020 --> 00:09:05,533 [Tyler Tringas]: resonate with a lot of people. businesses necessarily, but it might be, you 251 00:09:05,553 --> 00:09:10,039 [Tyler Tringas]: know, organizational groups they've been meaning to start or a pickleball 252 00:09:10,079 --> 00:09:13,082 [Tyler Tringas]: league in the neighborhood they've been meaning to start, right? Like, 253 00:09:13,143 --> 00:09:16,487 [Tyler Tringas]: I mean, I don't know, like, you might be selling yourself short here. It 254 00:09:16,507 --> 00:09:17,119 [Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit 255 00:09:17,119 --> 00:09:17,147 [Arvid Kahl]: Thanks. [Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit 256 00:09:17,147 --> 00:09:17,188 [Arvid Kahl]: Thanks. 257 00:09:17,188 --> 00:09:17,381 [Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're thinking. [Arvid Kahl]: Thanks. 258 00:09:17,381 --> 00:09:18,709 [Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're thinking. 259 00:09:19,734 --> 00:09:23,617 [Arvid Kahl]: Well, thanks so much for being constructive in your feedback. 260 00:09:23,663 --> 00:09:23,877 [Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha! 261 00:09:23,877 --> 00:09:24,129 [Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that I always really like that has a strong built-in [Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha! 262 00:09:24,129 --> 00:09:28,201 [Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that I always really like that has a strong built-in 263 00:09:28,241 --> 00:09:31,123 [Arvid Kahl]: public vibe has been Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. 264 00:09:31,522 --> 00:09:31,704 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 265 00:09:31,704 --> 00:09:31,767 [Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 266 00:09:31,767 --> 00:09:34,526 [Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all 267 00:09:34,603 --> 00:09:34,626 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 268 00:09:34,626 --> 00:09:34,827 [Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator in the public space. And he found a publisher [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 269 00:09:34,827 --> 00:09:39,811 [Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator in the public space. And he found a publisher 270 00:09:40,712 --> 00:09:41,067 [Arvid Kahl]: with a book 271 00:09:41,067 --> 00:09:41,132 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: with a book 272 00:09:41,132 --> 00:09:41,152 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 273 00:09:41,152 --> 00:09:41,312 [Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 274 00:09:41,312 --> 00:09:46,156 [Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do 275 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:51,362 [Arvid Kahl]: the whole. What in the software world is like we're striped for cats or something. 276 00:09:51,442 --> 00:09:55,928 [Arvid Kahl]: I should say like, I'm show your work for, for businesses or something. 277 00:09:56,110 --> 00:09:56,509 [Tyler Tringas]: There you 278 00:09:56,509 --> 00:09:56,530 [Arvid Kahl]: I need [Tyler Tringas]: There you 279 00:09:56,530 --> 00:09:56,550 [Arvid Kahl]: I need 280 00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:56,629 [Tyler Tringas]: go. [Arvid Kahl]: I need 281 00:09:56,629 --> 00:09:56,669 [Tyler Tringas]: go. 282 00:09:56,669 --> 00:09:56,790 [Arvid Kahl]: to go [Tyler Tringas]: go. 283 00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:56,930 [Arvid Kahl]: to go 284 00:09:56,930 --> 00:09:56,970 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: to go 285 00:09:56,970 --> 00:09:57,030 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 286 00:09:57,030 --> 00:09:57,210 [Arvid Kahl]: and [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 287 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:58,191 [Arvid Kahl]: and 288 00:09:58,191 --> 00:09:58,212 [Tyler Tringas]: Well, [Arvid Kahl]: and 289 00:09:58,212 --> 00:09:58,232 [Tyler Tringas]: Well, 290 00:09:58,232 --> 00:09:58,432 [Arvid Kahl]: just [Tyler Tringas]: Well, 291 00:09:58,432 --> 00:09:58,491 [Tyler Tringas]: Well, 292 00:09:58,531 --> 00:09:58,552 [Tyler Tringas]: I 293 00:09:58,552 --> 00:09:58,611 [Arvid Kahl]: position [Tyler Tringas]: I 294 00:09:58,611 --> 00:09:58,631 [Arvid Kahl]: position 295 00:09:58,631 --> 00:09:58,973 [Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know, [Arvid Kahl]: position 296 00:09:58,973 --> 00:09:58,993 [Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know, 297 00:09:58,993 --> 00:09:59,092 [Arvid Kahl]: myself [Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know, 298 00:09:59,092 --> 00:09:59,152 [Arvid Kahl]: myself 299 00:09:59,152 --> 00:09:59,333 [Tyler Tringas]: you should [Arvid Kahl]: myself 300 00:09:59,333 --> 00:09:59,373 [Tyler Tringas]: you should 301 00:09:59,373 --> 00:09:59,452 [Arvid Kahl]: better. [Tyler Tringas]: you should 302 00:09:59,452 --> 00:09:59,492 [Arvid Kahl]: better. 303 00:09:59,492 --> 00:09:59,573 [Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks [Arvid Kahl]: better. 304 00:09:59,573 --> 00:10:04,415 [Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks 305 00:10:04,455 --> 00:10:10,059 [Tyler Tringas]: ago, and literally talking about this exact topic with Paul Miller. And 306 00:10:10,099 --> 00:10:14,462 [Tyler Tringas]: he was talking about, you know, trying to decide whether or not to work with 307 00:10:14,483 --> 00:10:20,515 [Tyler Tringas]: a publisher for his book. And he was bringing up some Some kind of cons to 308 00:10:20,555 --> 00:10:23,899 [Tyler Tringas]: it that I hadn't thought about in the sense of, uh, you know, them having 309 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:28,024 [Tyler Tringas]: like control over derivative works and stuff like that. So anyway, you should 310 00:10:28,064 --> 00:10:30,927 [Tyler Tringas]: have him on your, uh, on your main podcast and you guys should just talk 311 00:10:30,967 --> 00:10:31,267 [Tyler Tringas]: about it. I 312 00:10:32,210 --> 00:10:32,329 [Arvid Kahl]: a great 313 00:10:32,329 --> 00:10:32,490 [Tyler Tringas]: think that's [Arvid Kahl]: a great 314 00:10:32,490 --> 00:10:32,550 [Tyler Tringas]: think that's 315 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:32,629 [Arvid Kahl]: idea. [Tyler Tringas]: think that's 316 00:10:32,629 --> 00:10:32,669 [Arvid Kahl]: idea. 317 00:10:32,669 --> 00:10:32,810 [Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer. [Arvid Kahl]: idea. 318 00:10:32,810 --> 00:10:33,129 [Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer. 319 00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:35,752 [Arvid Kahl]: Let me do this right after we wrap. I'm just gonna, 320 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:36,273 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 321 00:10:36,273 --> 00:10:36,299 [Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 322 00:10:36,299 --> 00:10:38,446 [Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's 323 00:10:38,446 --> 00:10:38,455 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. [Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's 324 00:10:38,455 --> 00:10:38,475 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 325 00:10:38,475 --> 00:10:38,686 [Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 326 00:10:38,686 --> 00:10:39,709 [Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That 327 00:10:39,709 --> 00:10:39,856 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That 328 00:10:39,856 --> 00:10:39,870 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 329 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:39,890 [Arvid Kahl]: is 330 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:39,956 [Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: is 331 00:10:39,956 --> 00:10:39,996 [Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah. 332 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:40,090 [Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful. But I've been admiring his work and his approach [Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah. 333 00:10:40,090 --> 00:10:44,039 [Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful. But I've been admiring his work and his approach 334 00:10:44,079 --> 00:10:47,842 [Arvid Kahl]: to particularly like his I don't need the big launch kind of thing. I'm just 335 00:10:47,862 --> 00:10:51,625 [Arvid Kahl]: gonna sell this book like when it becomes popular, kind of like that as well. 336 00:10:52,026 --> 00:10:56,209 [Arvid Kahl]: So yeah, thanks. That's really helpful. I'm, you know what, it's a lot of 337 00:10:56,269 --> 00:10:59,492 [Arvid Kahl]: imposter syndrome in this for me as well, because all of a sudden you play 338 00:10:59,512 --> 00:11:01,003 [Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you don't really know 339 00:11:01,003 --> 00:11:01,073 [Tyler Tringas]: Word. [Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you don't really know 340 00:11:01,073 --> 00:11:01,171 [Tyler Tringas]: Word. 341 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:07,459 [Arvid Kahl]: right with all these these extremely successful other people but then again why 342 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,685 [Arvid Kahl]: just as well man thanks so much how has your week been what have you been doing 343 00:11:12,282 --> 00:11:14,242 [Tyler Tringas]: My week has been pretty bad. 344 00:11:15,308 --> 00:11:15,410 [Arvid Kahl]: Aw. 345 00:11:16,663 --> 00:11:23,785 [Tyler Tringas]: Mainly I've just been really, really sick. I don't often get like really 346 00:11:23,825 --> 00:11:28,046 [Tyler Tringas]: sick for more than a day or two. And I've been sick for two straight weeks 347 00:11:28,626 --> 00:11:32,687 [Tyler Tringas]: on top of like, you know, a bunch of other stuff, which we discussed last 348 00:11:32,727 --> 00:11:38,089 [Tyler Tringas]: week. So it's been it's been a challenging week in terms of really just 349 00:11:38,149 --> 00:11:43,867 [Tyler Tringas]: not being able to get a lot done. Here I'm still kind of like coming out 350 00:11:43,907 --> 00:11:48,128 [Tyler Tringas]: of it. Got on like a bunch of antibiotics and stuff a couple of days ago. 351 00:11:48,188 --> 00:11:52,770 [Tyler Tringas]: So I'm feeling much better now. And this is like starting to be productive 352 00:11:52,810 --> 00:11:57,352 [Tyler Tringas]: again. But, you know, it's just like really challenging couple of weeks. 353 00:11:57,592 --> 00:12:05,336 [Tyler Tringas]: And like I just had to kind of continuously remind myself that when you 354 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,077 [Tyler Tringas]: find yourself in this position, especially as like a founder, where you have 355 00:12:09,097 --> 00:12:16,518 [Tyler Tringas]: a lot of. leverage as a founder and when you are productive, that's like 10 356 00:12:16,558 --> 00:12:21,742 [Tyler Tringas]: or 20 times more effective in like a day than a day where you like pound 357 00:12:21,782 --> 00:12:24,684 [Tyler Tringas]: a bunch of coffee and cold medicine and kind of force yourself to answer 358 00:12:24,724 --> 00:12:28,327 [Tyler Tringas]: some emails. And so like you feel a bunch of guilt about it, because you'll 359 00:12:28,347 --> 00:12:32,009 [Tyler Tringas]: feel a bunch of things piling up that need your attention. And like right 360 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:35,772 [Tyler Tringas]: now I'm feeling that I've had a lot of stuff that was fairly urgent that 361 00:12:35,812 --> 00:12:39,270 [Tyler Tringas]: needed my attention that I was just like I think I just need to like log 362 00:12:39,370 --> 00:12:43,673 [Tyler Tringas]: off for a couple of days and, and try to, to get better because it's just 363 00:12:43,733 --> 00:12:48,235 [Tyler Tringas]: not worth it to, to try and slog through a little bit of stuff if it, if 364 00:12:48,275 --> 00:12:53,978 [Tyler Tringas]: it drags out an illness. So that's kind of like a hard one lesson. I've 365 00:12:53,998 --> 00:12:57,420 [Tyler Tringas]: done the opposite of that several times where, you know, you just end up like 366 00:12:58,321 --> 00:13:04,164 [Tyler Tringas]: kind of ruining several weeks at a time. But yeah, looking forward to being 367 00:13:04,184 --> 00:13:09,614 [Tyler Tringas]: back at a hundred percent pretty soon. The other thing that's been going on 368 00:13:09,734 --> 00:13:14,676 [Tyler Tringas]: is just the response from, you know, last week, I kind of rolled out the 369 00:13:14,716 --> 00:13:18,818 [Tyler Tringas]: announcement about reducing the team size, having to lay a few people off 370 00:13:18,858 --> 00:13:25,080 [Tyler Tringas]: at CompFund and really narrowing our focus to, you know, the core job, you know, 371 00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:29,502 [Tyler Tringas]: canceling a couple side projects, that kind of stuff. And honestly, the response 372 00:13:29,522 --> 00:13:34,584 [Tyler Tringas]: has been just like tremendous. I can't even respond to all of the emails and 373 00:13:34,624 --> 00:13:39,854 [Tyler Tringas]: DMs that have just been like 100 percent. you know, supportive and encouraging 374 00:13:39,894 --> 00:13:45,877 [Tyler Tringas]: and understanding. Super awesome to, to feel that I, you know, if, if any of 375 00:13:45,897 --> 00:13:48,698 [Tyler Tringas]: those folks are listening to this, I really, really appreciate it made a 376 00:13:48,738 --> 00:13:53,700 [Tyler Tringas]: huge difference. Um, during a pretty tough, a couple of weeks for me personally. 377 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,822 [Tyler Tringas]: And it just reminded me that like, you almost can't lose as an entrepreneur 378 00:13:58,862 --> 00:14:03,364 [Tyler Tringas]: in a lot of ways, you know, like you just get so much credit from everyone 379 00:14:03,424 --> 00:14:08,898 [Tyler Tringas]: just for trying that even when you try something and it's sort of. objectively 380 00:14:08,938 --> 00:14:15,061 [Tyler Tringas]: doesn't work out, right? You know, you might say it failed, right? You just 381 00:14:15,081 --> 00:14:18,983 [Tyler Tringas]: get so much credit from everyone for trying. Everybody is still so stoked that 382 00:14:19,023 --> 00:14:26,166 [Tyler Tringas]: you gave it a good shot and there's almost no real penalty from most people 383 00:14:26,206 --> 00:14:30,708 [Tyler Tringas]: that you care about their opinion for not succeeding in a particular part of 384 00:14:30,728 --> 00:14:34,210 [Tyler Tringas]: the venture. And everybody is just ready for you to kind of like. get 385 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:39,432 [Tyler Tringas]: back on the horse and try again. So that's been really, really nice, especially 386 00:14:39,452 --> 00:14:43,614 [Tyler Tringas]: the last couple of weeks to just this, I mean, it's like hundreds of emails 387 00:14:43,654 --> 00:14:48,656 [Tyler Tringas]: and DMs coming in after the public announcement that, yeah, it was just 388 00:14:48,676 --> 00:14:51,297 [Tyler Tringas]: super supportive. So I'm really grateful for that. 389 00:14:52,394 --> 00:14:56,296 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm so happy to hear it. I'm not surprised that our amazing community 390 00:14:56,476 --> 00:14:57,779 [Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know, 391 00:14:57,779 --> 00:14:57,917 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know, 392 00:14:57,917 --> 00:14:57,920 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 393 00:14:58,057 --> 00:14:58,446 [Arvid Kahl]: when, 394 00:14:58,446 --> 00:14:58,497 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: when, 395 00:14:58,497 --> 00:14:58,537 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 396 00:14:58,537 --> 00:14:58,628 [Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 397 00:14:58,628 --> 00:15:01,819 [Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for 398 00:15:01,859 --> 00:15:05,861 [Arvid Kahl]: you to be in this physical state of despair, cause you're 399 00:15:05,889 --> 00:15:05,921 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 400 00:15:05,921 --> 00:15:06,036 [Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks. You have this, you see the world differently, [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 401 00:15:06,036 --> 00:15:09,343 [Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks. You have this, you see the world differently, 402 00:15:09,524 --> 00:15:13,846 [Arvid Kahl]: but then still have this glowing lights of support and motivation come in and 403 00:15:13,926 --> 00:15:18,189 [Arvid Kahl]: understanding probably most of all, so that's wonderful. It's one of those 404 00:15:18,209 --> 00:15:21,566 [Arvid Kahl]: things. That's kind of why I want to do more about building in public as well. 405 00:15:21,606 --> 00:15:23,186 [Arvid Kahl]: This is such a clear example 406 00:15:23,395 --> 00:15:23,626 [Tyler Tringas]: Totally. 407 00:15:23,626 --> 00:15:23,731 [Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending the journey of the business. It doesn't, you [Tyler Tringas]: Totally. 408 00:15:23,731 --> 00:15:28,588 [Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending the journey of the business. It doesn't, you 409 00:15:28,788 --> 00:15:33,009 [Arvid Kahl]: being you and you learning and you growing and you sharing this, it could 410 00:15:33,029 --> 00:15:36,750 [Arvid Kahl]: have been great what happened to Com. It could have been, it was kind of 411 00:15:36,770 --> 00:15:41,652 [Arvid Kahl]: bad what happened to Com, but either way, there's something that strengthens 412 00:15:41,692 --> 00:15:45,132 [Arvid Kahl]: the bond between the people that are around you and you through whatever comes, 413 00:15:45,433 --> 00:15:50,010 [Arvid Kahl]: which is such a cool phenomenon. That's something that... If you hadn't shared 414 00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:53,133 [Arvid Kahl]: your journey, you would just be alone and sad and people would get mad at you. 415 00:15:53,433 --> 00:15:58,157 [Arvid Kahl]: But now you've built this goodwill and people actually also want you to succeed. 416 00:15:58,257 --> 00:16:01,900 [Arvid Kahl]: And no matter what happens, they're there for you. That's such a wonderful thing. 417 00:16:02,301 --> 00:16:03,281 [Arvid Kahl]: I'm really happy to hear this. 418 00:16:03,838 --> 00:16:07,479 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think you're totally right that like, you know, this is an exemplar, 419 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,961 [Tyler Tringas]: an example of the value of building in public, right? Because the decisions 420 00:16:12,981 --> 00:16:18,484 [Tyler Tringas]: that we made were sort of laid out along the way, people knew the bets we 421 00:16:18,524 --> 00:16:21,865 [Tyler Tringas]: were taking, the risks we were taking, the upside of the decision, why we 422 00:16:21,885 --> 00:16:25,187 [Tyler Tringas]: made these decisions, you know, and that was kind of laid out and publicly 423 00:16:25,207 --> 00:16:28,808 [Tyler Tringas]: documented and then kind of landing on, well, here are the outcomes of 424 00:16:28,848 --> 00:16:33,410 [Tyler Tringas]: those and here are the decisions we need to make. I think You just get a lot 425 00:16:33,470 --> 00:16:40,017 [Tyler Tringas]: more goodwill and just kind of trust from folks. Whereas if they just see 426 00:16:40,037 --> 00:16:43,961 [Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the, the outside effects without the kind of behind the scenes 427 00:16:44,021 --> 00:16:48,505 [Tyler Tringas]: explanations, I think people, you know, some portion of people will, will 428 00:16:48,565 --> 00:16:50,774 [Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for that 429 00:16:50,774 --> 00:16:50,827 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for that 430 00:16:50,827 --> 00:16:50,887 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. 431 00:16:50,887 --> 00:16:51,117 [Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind of [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. 432 00:16:51,117 --> 00:16:52,248 [Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind of 433 00:16:52,269 --> 00:16:52,288 [Arvid Kahl]: That's 434 00:16:52,288 --> 00:16:52,491 [Tyler Tringas]: like [Arvid Kahl]: That's 435 00:16:52,491 --> 00:16:52,529 [Tyler Tringas]: like 436 00:16:52,531 --> 00:16:52,549 [Arvid Kahl]: right. 437 00:16:52,549 --> 00:16:52,733 [Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And [Arvid Kahl]: right. 438 00:16:52,733 --> 00:16:56,212 [Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And 439 00:16:56,633 --> 00:17:00,997 [Tyler Tringas]: I really don't think. I haven't found anybody. I was certainly worried a little 440 00:17:01,017 --> 00:17:04,441 [Tyler Tringas]: bit that there might be some backlash. We have a lot of investors and stuff 441 00:17:04,461 --> 00:17:08,726 [Tyler Tringas]: like that that might say like, oh, this sucks. You're not doing as well as 442 00:17:09,006 --> 00:17:12,430 [Tyler Tringas]: I thought you would or something like that. And there was just none of that, 443 00:17:12,791 --> 00:17:15,093 [Tyler Tringas]: absolutely none. So it was actually fantastic. 444 00:17:16,462 --> 00:17:19,543 [Arvid Kahl]: It's kind of hard to get mad at somebody who's been honest with you the whole 445 00:17:19,583 --> 00:17:19,864 [Arvid Kahl]: time. 446 00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:20,444 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 447 00:17:20,444 --> 00:17:20,612 [Arvid Kahl]: Right? [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 448 00:17:20,612 --> 00:17:21,197 [Arvid Kahl]: Right? 449 00:17:21,197 --> 00:17:21,500 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: Right? 450 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:21,705 [Arvid Kahl]: Right? 451 00:17:21,745 --> 00:17:22,367 [Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get 452 00:17:22,367 --> 00:17:22,488 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get 453 00:17:22,488 --> 00:17:23,005 [Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get 454 00:17:23,806 --> 00:17:27,648 [Arvid Kahl]: you get mad at yourself for maybe having inflated expectations if there's nothing 455 00:17:27,868 --> 00:17:31,710 [Arvid Kahl]: that you can cling on onto. That's really cool. Yeah, but wonderful. You just 456 00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:34,142 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for my book. So thank you so much, 457 00:17:34,142 --> 00:17:34,192 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for my book. So thank you so much, 458 00:17:34,192 --> 00:17:34,312 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 459 00:17:34,312 --> 00:17:34,810 [Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this as an example, because lots of people have [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 460 00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:37,254 [Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this as an example, because lots of people have 461 00:17:37,274 --> 00:17:40,716 [Arvid Kahl]: been asking around building in public, well, where are the negative examples? 462 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:43,637 [Arvid Kahl]: Where is where something went wrong? And how did that affect people? I think 463 00:17:43,677 --> 00:17:48,935 [Arvid Kahl]: this is as positive as can be for such a negative example, right? Stuff didn't 464 00:17:48,975 --> 00:17:52,436 [Arvid Kahl]: work, you still got something out of it. That's that's exactly what I love 465 00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,137 [Arvid Kahl]: about that story. Even though I wish it would have happened differently for 466 00:17:56,177 --> 00:17:59,318 [Arvid Kahl]: so many reasons. But the way it happened, the way you communicated has been 467 00:17:59,358 --> 00:18:03,659 [Arvid Kahl]: stellar. And I'm very happy to see that. Yeah, people don't they did not have 468 00:18:03,679 --> 00:18:07,920 [Arvid Kahl]: an avenue of complaining, which is great. You come, you covered your bases. 469 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:08,492 [Arvid Kahl]: That's what you 470 00:18:08,492 --> 00:18:08,600 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: That's what you 471 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:08,620 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 472 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:08,681 [Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a positive and I guess empowering way for others [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 473 00:18:08,681 --> 00:18:13,161 [Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a positive and I guess empowering way for others 474 00:18:13,181 --> 00:18:17,210 [Arvid Kahl]: to learn from. That's really cool. Well, I'm glad we live in a community where 475 00:18:17,251 --> 00:18:18,791 [Arvid Kahl]: everybody understands each other, 476 00:18:19,327 --> 00:18:19,411 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 477 00:18:19,411 --> 00:18:19,429 [Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows where we are going with the thing that we're [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 478 00:18:19,429 --> 00:18:22,212 [Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows where we are going with the thing that we're 479 00:18:22,252 --> 00:18:23,239 [Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand 480 00:18:23,239 --> 00:18:23,381 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand 481 00:18:23,381 --> 00:18:23,533 [Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand 482 00:18:23,553 --> 00:18:27,474 [Arvid Kahl]: that there's risk in entrepreneurship and that they also understand that this risk 483 00:18:27,554 --> 00:18:29,395 [Arvid Kahl]: is worth failing from time to time. 484 00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:29,895 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm 485 00:18:29,895 --> 00:18:30,071 [Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference. Because if you had people who don't understand [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm 486 00:18:30,071 --> 00:18:33,936 [Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference. Because if you had people who don't understand 487 00:18:33,976 --> 00:18:37,357 [Arvid Kahl]: this, they probably would have responded differently to your announcement, 488 00:18:37,957 --> 00:18:37,982 [Arvid Kahl]: right? 489 00:18:37,982 --> 00:18:38,157 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely. [Arvid Kahl]: right? 490 00:18:38,157 --> 00:18:39,278 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely. 491 00:18:40,362 --> 00:18:45,285 [Arvid Kahl]: Well, maybe we should use this opportunity to dive into the topic of today, 492 00:18:45,485 --> 00:18:45,672 [Arvid Kahl]: which is 493 00:18:45,672 --> 00:18:45,785 [Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it. [Arvid Kahl]: which is 494 00:18:45,785 --> 00:18:46,005 [Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it. 495 00:18:46,005 --> 00:18:46,100 [Arvid Kahl]: very much, [Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it. 496 00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:46,346 [Arvid Kahl]: very much, 497 00:18:46,589 --> 00:18:46,752 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 498 00:18:46,846 --> 00:18:51,489 [Arvid Kahl]: very much related to this. I've been, uh, at MicroConf, I was talking about 499 00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:55,392 [Arvid Kahl]: fundamental health, right? The problems that we all commonly share, being 500 00:18:55,472 --> 00:19:00,095 [Arvid Kahl]: overworked, doing a lot of things. And one, one thing that I shared a pretty sad 501 00:19:00,135 --> 00:19:04,791 [Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was social isolation, feeling alone, feeling 502 00:19:04,791 --> 00:19:04,879 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was social isolation, feeling alone, feeling 503 00:19:04,879 --> 00:19:04,899 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 504 00:19:04,899 --> 00:19:04,936 [Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not supported at all. And I f- Ever since then, [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. 505 00:19:04,936 --> 00:19:10,198 [Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not supported at all. And I f- Ever since then, 506 00:19:10,238 --> 00:19:13,241 [Arvid Kahl]: people have been reaching out to me, both right there at the venue after 507 00:19:13,301 --> 00:19:17,624 [Arvid Kahl]: I gave my talk and over the next couple days, plus now in Twitter DMs, sharing 508 00:19:17,664 --> 00:19:23,949 [Arvid Kahl]: stories about how hard it was for them to stay the course, like to calmly 509 00:19:24,009 --> 00:19:29,093 [Arvid Kahl]: build a business, trying to stay calm when around the people around them were 510 00:19:29,153 --> 00:19:34,077 [Arvid Kahl]: just energetically trying to distract them or pull them away from entrepreneurship 511 00:19:34,097 --> 00:19:38,992 [Arvid Kahl]: because they just didn't get it. Like this week I had an interview, I just released 512 00:19:39,052 --> 00:19:43,955 [Arvid Kahl]: it earlier today, with Dagobert Renouf, the co-founder of Logology. He and 513 00:19:43,995 --> 00:19:47,378 [Arvid Kahl]: his wife founded a logo creation software as a service business. 514 00:19:47,906 --> 00:19:47,918 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 515 00:19:47,918 --> 00:19:48,487 [Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that he's been talking about on Twitter has been [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 516 00:19:48,487 --> 00:19:53,782 [Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that he's been talking about on Twitter has been 517 00:19:53,822 --> 00:19:57,945 [Arvid Kahl]: that his father-in-law has been completely unsupportive and not understanding 518 00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:01,988 [Arvid Kahl]: about why he and his wife would ever build a business together when they both 519 00:20:02,028 --> 00:20:06,063 [Arvid Kahl]: could just have regular careers. that she's a designer, he's a software engineer, 520 00:20:06,103 --> 00:20:08,904 [Arvid Kahl]: like they could work for corporate and they would be fine for life. That's his 521 00:20:08,944 --> 00:20:08,962 [Arvid Kahl]: perspective, 522 00:20:08,962 --> 00:20:09,142 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: perspective, 523 00:20:09,142 --> 00:20:09,445 [Arvid Kahl]: perspective, 524 00:20:09,865 --> 00:20:13,967 [Arvid Kahl]: has been his perspective for a while until he saw that it's kind of working 525 00:20:14,027 --> 00:20:17,169 [Arvid Kahl]: out. But he shared this on my podcast and I was like, yeah, this is something 526 00:20:17,189 --> 00:20:21,211 [Arvid Kahl]: that probably every founder can relate to because I personally have a very 527 00:20:21,251 --> 00:20:26,394 [Arvid Kahl]: similar story in my life, early life, even like not necessarily with Feat. 528 00:20:26,414 --> 00:20:29,976 [Arvid Kahl]: Panda, the stuff that actually worked out, but much earlier, like in 2013, 529 00:20:30,817 --> 00:20:35,440 [Arvid Kahl]: 2012. when I kind of, I was still in university, I was studying political science, 530 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,583 [Arvid Kahl]: but I always wanted to be an engineer, I always wanted to code, I was coding on the 531 00:20:38,643 --> 00:20:39,464 [Arvid Kahl]: side. And 532 00:20:39,563 --> 00:20:39,770 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 533 00:20:39,804 --> 00:20:44,828 [Arvid Kahl]: I got this invite to San Francisco for, like there was a C-funded company that 534 00:20:45,148 --> 00:20:48,271 [Arvid Kahl]: found my GitHub and they wanted me to kind of see if I could work for them 535 00:20:48,551 --> 00:20:51,493 [Arvid Kahl]: as a remote employee from Germany, but they wanted to meet me, so they flew me 536 00:20:51,554 --> 00:20:57,158 [Arvid Kahl]: in or wanted to fly me in from San Francisco. Even just that was something 537 00:20:57,198 --> 00:21:00,921 [Arvid Kahl]: that my grandma at the time, who had kind of the maternal role in my family, 538 00:21:01,534 --> 00:21:04,435 [Arvid Kahl]: She didn't understand and didn't support. Like she was like, no, you shouldn't 539 00:21:04,455 --> 00:21:09,319 [Arvid Kahl]: do this. This is dangerous. This is kind of risky. I think this feels like something 540 00:21:09,819 --> 00:21:14,562 [Arvid Kahl]: that, you know, that's kind of, that must be a scam. They invite you over, 541 00:21:15,063 --> 00:21:18,505 [Arvid Kahl]: that's not right. I think that's like, why would anybody pay for a ticket and 542 00:21:18,525 --> 00:21:22,247 [Arvid Kahl]: you don't even know who they are? And she just did not even understand this kind 543 00:21:22,307 --> 00:21:25,429 [Arvid Kahl]: of founders taking a bet on a potential employee. 544 00:21:25,984 --> 00:21:26,038 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 545 00:21:26,038 --> 00:21:26,265 [Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there, I had a great time. We came to an agreement. [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 546 00:21:26,265 --> 00:21:29,418 [Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there, I had a great time. We came to an agreement. 547 00:21:29,439 --> 00:21:32,399 [Arvid Kahl]: I worked for them for two years, and then it got burned out and everything exploded 548 00:21:32,439 --> 00:21:35,840 [Arvid Kahl]: in my life. But that's a different story for a different opportunity. But 549 00:21:35,907 --> 00:21:35,940 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 550 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:36,096 [Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building tiny software businesses with my friends and [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 551 00:21:36,096 --> 00:21:39,621 [Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building tiny software businesses with my friends and 552 00:21:39,641 --> 00:21:43,903 [Arvid Kahl]: peers. And again, she was like, I don't know if this is the way you should 553 00:21:43,943 --> 00:21:47,064 [Arvid Kahl]: be going. Like you could, you're good at your job. You could just find a job 554 00:21:47,084 --> 00:21:50,665 [Arvid Kahl]: with like some software business. Right? You could go to Audi or another big 555 00:21:50,705 --> 00:21:54,110 [Arvid Kahl]: German company and work in a software department, right? And I was like, no, but 556 00:21:54,150 --> 00:21:56,951 [Arvid Kahl]: I want to do this. And I then, then I did this and these things failed. And 557 00:21:56,971 --> 00:22:01,473 [Arvid Kahl]: she was like, yep, told you you should go and get a job. And I just, I kind 558 00:22:01,533 --> 00:22:04,314 [Arvid Kahl]: of listened to her. I started getting into consulting with a bigger business 559 00:22:04,374 --> 00:22:08,756 [Arvid Kahl]: and consulted for them as my big fish main client. But over time, I just wanted 560 00:22:08,776 --> 00:22:09,776 [Arvid Kahl]: to build more businesses. 561 00:22:10,126 --> 00:22:10,237 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 562 00:22:10,237 --> 00:22:10,252 [Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 563 00:22:10,252 --> 00:22:14,438 [Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were 564 00:22:14,618 --> 00:22:20,021 [Arvid Kahl]: like building Feedback Panda and showing her that this was now, um, like a $20,000 565 00:22:20,581 --> 00:22:25,348 [Arvid Kahl]: a month business. for her to say, well, okay, I guess it's fine. That was the 566 00:22:25,388 --> 00:22:29,771 [Arvid Kahl]: situation. We built a SaaS business to 20K MRR and that was okay, I guess this 567 00:22:29,831 --> 00:22:30,877 [Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took 568 00:22:30,877 --> 00:22:30,912 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took 569 00:22:30,912 --> 00:22:30,952 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 570 00:22:30,952 --> 00:22:31,099 [Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years to get her to this point. Super frustrating. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 571 00:22:31,099 --> 00:22:35,295 [Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years to get her to this point. Super frustrating. 572 00:22:35,315 --> 00:22:39,959 [Arvid Kahl]: And I think everybody who's been going into solopreneurship or just entrepreneurship 573 00:22:39,999 --> 00:22:43,861 [Arvid Kahl]: in general has a story like this. I wonder if you have a story like this too. 574 00:22:46,578 --> 00:22:49,342 [Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think 575 00:22:49,342 --> 00:22:49,439 [Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family, [Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think 576 00:22:49,439 --> 00:22:50,059 [Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family, 577 00:22:50,059 --> 00:22:50,327 [Tyler Tringas]: so. [Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family, 578 00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:50,488 [Tyler Tringas]: so. 579 00:22:50,488 --> 00:22:51,219 [Arvid Kahl]: right? It could [Tyler Tringas]: so. 580 00:22:51,219 --> 00:22:51,299 [Arvid Kahl]: right? It could 581 00:22:51,299 --> 00:22:51,413 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: right? It could 582 00:22:51,413 --> 00:22:51,433 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 583 00:22:51,433 --> 00:22:51,459 [Arvid Kahl]: be anybody. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 584 00:22:51,459 --> 00:22:52,077 [Arvid Kahl]: be anybody. 585 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,701 [Tyler Tringas]: so I grew up in a family where entrepreneurship was a little more normalized. 586 00:22:58,781 --> 00:23:03,643 [Tyler Tringas]: My, you know, my stepdad was sort of my head of household for most of my 587 00:23:03,683 --> 00:23:10,144 [Tyler Tringas]: life, and he ran a guitar shop, you know. So I think the the concept of being 588 00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:14,090 [Tyler Tringas]: an entrepreneur was a little more normalized within the family. So there 589 00:23:14,110 --> 00:23:17,672 [Tyler Tringas]: wasn't that kind of constant pressure to be like, why don't you get a job 590 00:23:18,012 --> 00:23:20,114 [Tyler Tringas]: sort of thing. But I would say, 591 00:23:23,416 --> 00:23:26,698 [Tyler Tringas]: the elements that kind of resonate with me in this are a little different, which 592 00:23:26,798 --> 00:23:31,741 [Tyler Tringas]: are, first of all, just like not necessarily, not having active pushback, 593 00:23:31,922 --> 00:23:36,765 [Tyler Tringas]: but not really having a support network, right? Like not having people within 594 00:23:36,805 --> 00:23:41,028 [Tyler Tringas]: my community. So. When I like my college friends and my, you know, first 595 00:23:41,088 --> 00:23:44,211 [Tyler Tringas]: friends from after college and stuff like that, like almost none of them 596 00:23:44,251 --> 00:23:49,435 [Tyler Tringas]: were entrepreneurs. So I didn't really have people that would push me in the 597 00:23:49,455 --> 00:23:53,118 [Tyler Tringas]: right direction or that I could sort of lean on in tough times necessarily. 598 00:23:53,198 --> 00:23:57,021 [Tyler Tringas]: So it was sort of isolated versus having, you know, kind of things pushing 599 00:23:57,061 --> 00:24:03,286 [Tyler Tringas]: back against me. Um, and then, you know, definitely like just in general. 600 00:24:04,508 --> 00:24:10,536 [Tyler Tringas]: Feeling like. uh, in most social situations that I didn't really have anything 601 00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:14,899 [Tyler Tringas]: to empathize with people, right? Like you're at, uh, you know, you're dating 602 00:24:14,939 --> 00:24:18,161 [Tyler Tringas]: someone who has a normal job and you go out with them and their friends 603 00:24:18,201 --> 00:24:21,863 [Tyler Tringas]: and everybody's complaining about, uh, you know, not having enough time 604 00:24:22,004 --> 00:24:25,926 [Tyler Tringas]: off or, you know, like weird stuff that's like no longer relevant feature 605 00:24:25,966 --> 00:24:27,727 [Tyler Tringas]: of your life at all, and you have nothing to say 606 00:24:27,754 --> 00:24:27,828 [Arvid Kahl]: Right. 607 00:24:27,828 --> 00:24:28,196 [Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know, this, that sort of isolation, I think is something [Arvid Kahl]: Right. 608 00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:33,131 [Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know, this, that sort of isolation, I think is something 609 00:24:33,151 --> 00:24:38,368 [Tyler Tringas]: that I felt a lot, um, pretty early on as an entrepreneur. And so. Yeah, 610 00:24:38,548 --> 00:24:40,752 [Tyler Tringas]: I think we should talk about it. I don't know if I have a specific example 611 00:24:40,772 --> 00:24:44,157 [Tyler Tringas]: that comes to mind. It was just like a very pervasive thing for quite 612 00:24:44,177 --> 00:24:45,119 [Tyler Tringas]: a few years for me. 613 00:24:46,646 --> 00:24:46,746 [Arvid Kahl]: Oh, 614 00:24:46,741 --> 00:24:46,766 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 615 00:24:46,766 --> 00:24:46,901 [Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific enough, particularly the thing with like going [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 616 00:24:46,901 --> 00:24:51,809 [Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific enough, particularly the thing with like going 617 00:24:51,949 --> 00:24:56,132 [Arvid Kahl]: out or going to any kind of social event and being just of a completely different 618 00:24:56,152 --> 00:24:58,613 [Arvid Kahl]: frame of mind, what even warrants being discussed. 619 00:24:59,241 --> 00:24:59,489 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 620 00:25:00,094 --> 00:25:03,716 [Arvid Kahl]: That's what I feel like when I was at a family thing a couple days ago and 621 00:25:03,736 --> 00:25:07,599 [Arvid Kahl]: it was really nice and when family hangs out, it's always enjoyable. But even 622 00:25:07,779 --> 00:25:12,654 [Arvid Kahl]: getting to a topic of discussion that I find interesting. in terms of like, 623 00:25:12,734 --> 00:25:16,555 [Arvid Kahl]: you know, I want to talk about AI, or I want to talk about like entrepreneurship, 624 00:25:16,575 --> 00:25:20,116 [Arvid Kahl]: I want to talk about like building something cool or cool projects. But people 625 00:25:20,536 --> 00:25:24,334 [Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things as interesting as I do, which kind 626 00:25:24,334 --> 00:25:24,377 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. [Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things as interesting as I do, which kind 627 00:25:24,377 --> 00:25:24,397 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 628 00:25:24,397 --> 00:25:24,560 [Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting to a point where I can contribute meaningfully [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 629 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,339 [Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting to a point where I can contribute meaningfully 630 00:25:28,379 --> 00:25:31,800 [Arvid Kahl]: to a conversation. Because the other topics, I'm not that much into sports, 631 00:25:31,860 --> 00:25:32,302 [Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much 632 00:25:32,302 --> 00:25:32,460 [Tyler Tringas]: Thank [Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much 633 00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:32,520 [Tyler Tringas]: Thank 634 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:32,787 [Arvid Kahl]: into, [Tyler Tringas]: Thank 635 00:25:32,787 --> 00:25:32,808 [Arvid Kahl]: into, 636 00:25:32,808 --> 00:25:32,820 [Tyler Tringas]: you. [Arvid Kahl]: into, 637 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:32,970 [Tyler Tringas]: you. 638 00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:36,381 [Arvid Kahl]: you know, vacations or whatnot, these these topics that normal people normally 639 00:25:36,421 --> 00:25:36,790 [Arvid Kahl]: talk about, 640 00:25:36,790 --> 00:25:36,901 [Tyler Tringas]: I think [Arvid Kahl]: talk about, 641 00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:36,961 [Tyler Tringas]: I think 642 00:25:36,961 --> 00:25:36,990 [Arvid Kahl]: right? [Tyler Tringas]: I think 643 00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:37,010 [Arvid Kahl]: right? 644 00:25:37,010 --> 00:25:37,141 [Tyler Tringas]: these [Arvid Kahl]: right? 645 00:25:37,141 --> 00:25:37,161 [Tyler Tringas]: these 646 00:25:37,161 --> 00:25:37,170 [Arvid Kahl]: It's [Tyler Tringas]: these 647 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:37,230 [Arvid Kahl]: It's 648 00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:37,261 [Tyler Tringas]: are [Arvid Kahl]: It's 649 00:25:37,261 --> 00:25:37,281 [Tyler Tringas]: are 650 00:25:37,281 --> 00:25:37,311 [Arvid Kahl]: just [Tyler Tringas]: are 651 00:25:37,311 --> 00:25:37,371 [Arvid Kahl]: just 652 00:25:37,371 --> 00:25:37,441 [Tyler Tringas]: more [Arvid Kahl]: just 653 00:25:37,441 --> 00:25:37,461 [Tyler Tringas]: more 654 00:25:37,461 --> 00:25:37,511 [Arvid Kahl]: that [Tyler Tringas]: more 655 00:25:37,511 --> 00:25:37,531 [Arvid Kahl]: that 656 00:25:37,531 --> 00:25:37,621 [Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify [Arvid Kahl]: that 657 00:25:37,621 --> 00:25:40,958 [Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify 658 00:25:40,958 --> 00:25:41,419 [Arvid Kahl]: But wait, [Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify 659 00:25:41,419 --> 00:25:41,659 [Arvid Kahl]: But wait, 660 00:25:41,659 --> 00:25:41,759 [Tyler Tringas]: by the [Arvid Kahl]: But wait, 661 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:41,960 [Tyler Tringas]: by the 662 00:25:41,999 --> 00:25:42,000 [Arvid Kahl]: what's, 663 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:42,159 [Tyler Tringas]: way. [Arvid Kahl]: what's, 664 00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:42,220 [Tyler Tringas]: way. 665 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,424 [Arvid Kahl]: isn't that the same? Like, isn't like one, like there's a big Venn diagram and 666 00:25:46,484 --> 00:25:49,102 [Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like right dab in the middle of, 667 00:25:49,102 --> 00:25:49,288 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy [Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like right dab in the middle of, 668 00:25:49,288 --> 00:25:49,748 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy 669 00:25:49,748 --> 00:25:49,965 [Arvid Kahl]: of the [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy 670 00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:50,028 [Arvid Kahl]: of the 671 00:25:50,045 --> 00:25:50,249 [Tyler Tringas]: on 672 00:25:50,249 --> 00:25:50,386 [Arvid Kahl]: nerd [Tyler Tringas]: on 673 00:25:50,386 --> 00:25:50,426 [Arvid Kahl]: nerd 674 00:25:50,426 --> 00:25:50,509 [Tyler Tringas]: your [Arvid Kahl]: nerd 675 00:25:50,509 --> 00:25:50,529 [Tyler Tringas]: your 676 00:25:50,529 --> 00:25:50,749 [Arvid Kahl]: thing. [Tyler Tringas]: your 677 00:25:50,749 --> 00:25:50,867 [Tyler Tringas]: your 678 00:25:51,088 --> 00:25:52,732 [Tyler Tringas]: very challenging socially. 679 00:25:53,354 --> 00:25:59,015 [Arvid Kahl]: Well, I honestly, I mean, I'm great. I'm great among family and we always 680 00:25:59,035 --> 00:26:01,796 [Arvid Kahl]: have nice chats. And even this time we did get to talk about chat chipperity 681 00:26:01,816 --> 00:26:05,477 [Arvid Kahl]: because a couple of people in the family work in marketing and we had this 682 00:26:05,537 --> 00:26:08,558 [Arvid Kahl]: whole conversation about, funny enough, we actually had a conversation that 683 00:26:08,598 --> 00:26:13,439 [Arvid Kahl]: went, that went into entrepreneurship because we kind of talked about them with their 684 00:26:13,479 --> 00:26:17,620 [Arvid Kahl]: career path and me, like how I source my finances, right? Where I find my 685 00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:22,074 [Arvid Kahl]: sponsors. Then we got into like how sponsorship evolved over time. people working 686 00:26:22,114 --> 00:26:25,555 [Arvid Kahl]: in an ad agency, obviously they're interested to see how it works on the ground 687 00:26:25,595 --> 00:26:27,376 [Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I 688 00:26:27,376 --> 00:26:27,416 [Tyler Tringas]: Mmm. [Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I 689 00:26:27,416 --> 00:26:27,438 [Tyler Tringas]: Mmm. 690 00:26:27,516 --> 00:26:31,298 [Arvid Kahl]: source my sponsors, how they could potentially connect with more people like me. 691 00:26:31,798 --> 00:26:35,720 [Arvid Kahl]: And it was an interesting conversation just about the different perspectives that 692 00:26:35,740 --> 00:26:39,962 [Arvid Kahl]: you have from an agency perspective on how to place advertisement and sponsorships 693 00:26:40,222 --> 00:26:43,964 [Arvid Kahl]: and what I care about as a creator and what I would never do, what is normal to 694 00:26:43,984 --> 00:26:48,066 [Arvid Kahl]: them. Like it was a nice conversation in the overlap of our fields. That was cool. 695 00:26:48,106 --> 00:26:52,569 [Arvid Kahl]: But that rarely happens. And it's just a few people that work in jobs that are 696 00:26:52,609 --> 00:26:56,051 [Arvid Kahl]: even adjacent to what I'm doing, because most people have normal jobs, like 697 00:26:56,091 --> 00:27:01,015 [Arvid Kahl]: plumber or nurse. What am I going to say? Build in public your next plumbing 698 00:27:01,055 --> 00:27:07,239 [Arvid Kahl]: project? It's going to be far cry for me to even get to a conversational 699 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:12,102 [Arvid Kahl]: topic there. So those situations, always enjoyable, but never really a part where 700 00:27:12,162 --> 00:27:15,745 [Arvid Kahl]: I feel I can contribute a lot. And that puts some distance in there, I feel. 701 00:27:17,418 --> 00:27:21,380 [Arvid Kahl]: That's just what it is. We chose this occupation and with it comes an interest 702 00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:26,723 [Arvid Kahl]: for certain things and a dismissal of others. It's just what it is. But I feel 703 00:27:27,484 --> 00:27:32,507 [Arvid Kahl]: it does show, at least for me, where our priorities lie and what we completely 704 00:27:32,567 --> 00:27:35,549 [Arvid Kahl]: ignore as entrepreneurs. What you said, these conversations about, oh, my 705 00:27:35,589 --> 00:27:39,811 [Arvid Kahl]: boss, or I wish there was more paid vacation. What is an entrepreneur going 706 00:27:39,831 --> 00:27:40,492 [Arvid Kahl]: to say? I wish 707 00:27:40,508 --> 00:27:40,512 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm. 708 00:27:40,512 --> 00:27:40,548 [Arvid Kahl]: there [Tyler Tringas]: Mm. 709 00:27:40,548 --> 00:27:40,568 [Arvid Kahl]: there 710 00:27:40,568 --> 00:27:40,608 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm. [Arvid Kahl]: there 711 00:27:40,608 --> 00:27:40,632 [Arvid Kahl]: there 712 00:27:40,652 --> 00:27:45,654 [Arvid Kahl]: was any vacation at all, ever. It feels like it's just a different different 713 00:27:45,674 --> 00:27:49,515 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of perspective to take on conversations. But maybe that is the happy 714 00:27:49,535 --> 00:27:54,557 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of result of us being somewhat isolated. But I feel there's a lot of mental 715 00:27:54,577 --> 00:27:56,127 [Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still 716 00:27:56,127 --> 00:27:56,331 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still 717 00:27:56,377 --> 00:28:00,538 [Arvid Kahl]: perform and to still to still maintain these bonds, particularly when it 718 00:28:00,558 --> 00:28:05,460 [Arvid Kahl]: comes to good friends or family or your significant other. Like the amounts 719 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:08,521 [Arvid Kahl]: of times I've been listening to a Star Trek podcast. Let me just like throw 720 00:28:08,581 --> 00:28:12,154 [Arvid Kahl]: it all out there, because like if we're nerding out my just as well. It's 721 00:28:12,194 --> 00:28:17,435 [Arvid Kahl]: called The Greatest Generation, and it has two male co-hosts that worked in 722 00:28:17,475 --> 00:28:21,497 [Arvid Kahl]: the entertainment industry. They're coming from videography or directing and kind 723 00:28:21,517 --> 00:28:25,198 [Arvid Kahl]: of stuff. And they now go through the old Star Trek The Next Generation episodes, 724 00:28:25,218 --> 00:28:29,199 [Arvid Kahl]: like one by one, and just comment them in a funny way. I highly recommend listening 725 00:28:29,219 --> 00:28:34,021 [Arvid Kahl]: to it. But what they always talk about is how their wives are just kind of embarrassed 726 00:28:34,161 --> 00:28:37,719 [Arvid Kahl]: about them running a Star Trek podcast. And you know, like whenever they're 727 00:28:37,739 --> 00:28:41,241 [Arvid Kahl]: out in public and now some of they have a lot of listeners, listeners come 728 00:28:41,281 --> 00:28:44,563 [Arvid Kahl]: up to them and want like an autograph or a photo, they're kind of embarrassed about 729 00:28:44,603 --> 00:28:49,007 [Arvid Kahl]: that. And I was like, this is so sad. I guess it's so unfortunate that somebody's 730 00:28:49,107 --> 00:28:52,609 [Arvid Kahl]: joy that also makes them money because they have a podcast with like, now 731 00:28:52,709 --> 00:28:57,833 [Arvid Kahl]: I guess hundreds of thousands of monthly listeners and yet still their partners 732 00:28:58,293 --> 00:29:03,857 [Arvid Kahl]: in life feel disconnected enough to not even care about it much or embarrassed 733 00:29:03,897 --> 00:29:07,922 [Arvid Kahl]: that. this person that they share their life with is doing this as a profession. 734 00:29:08,302 --> 00:29:12,327 [Arvid Kahl]: And I should say, like their partners are, I think one of them is a lawyer and the 735 00:29:12,347 --> 00:29:15,691 [Arvid Kahl]: other one also has a pretty high paid job. So there's this kind of discrepancy, 736 00:29:15,931 --> 00:29:19,816 [Arvid Kahl]: high paid lawyer, start with nerd on a podcast, right? This seems to be a problem 737 00:29:19,836 --> 00:29:23,900 [Arvid Kahl]: for people. And I was like, why? This is so sad, right? 738 00:29:24,501 --> 00:29:27,384 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I'm not a couples counselor, but that that that seems like a 739 00:29:27,435 --> 00:29:27,444 [Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha 740 00:29:27,444 --> 00:29:28,234 [Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship. [Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha 741 00:29:28,234 --> 00:29:30,346 [Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship. 742 00:29:30,346 --> 00:29:30,528 [Arvid Kahl]: Yep. Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship. 743 00:29:30,528 --> 00:29:32,730 [Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship. 744 00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:38,375 [Tyler Tringas]: Did you feel like you had to defend entrepreneurship, you know, to to your 745 00:29:38,415 --> 00:29:43,060 [Tyler Tringas]: family or or friends or anything like that? Did you ever find yourself sort 746 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,365 [Tyler Tringas]: of needing to? You know, I mean, you can sort of just like either shrug 747 00:29:48,405 --> 00:29:51,713 [Tyler Tringas]: it off, but sometimes you might feel the need to engage and sort of make the 748 00:29:51,753 --> 00:29:53,417 [Tyler Tringas]: case for it. Did you find that? 749 00:29:54,462 --> 00:29:58,204 [Arvid Kahl]: again, mostly with my grandma, because she was just she was in such a protective 750 00:29:58,244 --> 00:30:02,868 [Arvid Kahl]: role that anything that had more risk than gainful employment, like risk from 751 00:30:02,908 --> 00:30:06,330 [Arvid Kahl]: a perspective of somebody who's been in gainful employment all through her 752 00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:07,336 [Arvid Kahl]: life, right? 753 00:30:07,336 --> 00:30:07,418 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: life, right? 754 00:30:07,418 --> 00:30:07,471 [Arvid Kahl]: life, right? 755 00:30:07,531 --> 00:30:11,995 [Arvid Kahl]: That's the kind of default frame that she had on this, anything that was more 756 00:30:12,035 --> 00:30:16,998 [Arvid Kahl]: risky. And we can argue that entrepreneurship is risky in a different way, you know, unlimited 757 00:30:17,058 --> 00:30:20,501 [Arvid Kahl]: upside, unlimited downside compared to limited upside and limited downside for 758 00:30:20,561 --> 00:30:24,082 [Arvid Kahl]: employment and If you only have one employer, you have kind of platform risk, 759 00:30:24,423 --> 00:30:24,764 [Arvid Kahl]: platform 760 00:30:24,784 --> 00:30:25,523 [Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, 761 00:30:25,523 --> 00:30:25,627 [Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but 762 00:30:25,623 --> 00:30:26,069 [Tyler Tringas]: I would think 763 00:30:26,069 --> 00:30:26,124 [Arvid Kahl]: you know. [Tyler Tringas]: I would think 764 00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:26,249 [Arvid Kahl]: you know. 765 00:30:27,146 --> 00:30:30,814 [Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited downside side of things. But yes, I think 766 00:30:30,814 --> 00:30:30,853 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited downside side of things. But yes, I think 767 00:30:30,853 --> 00:30:30,893 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 768 00:30:30,893 --> 00:30:30,973 [Tyler Tringas]: it's [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 769 00:30:30,973 --> 00:30:31,054 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 770 00:30:31,114 --> 00:30:31,594 [Arvid Kahl]: exactly. 771 00:30:31,935 --> 00:30:33,839 [Tyler Tringas]: limited downside too. But yeah. 772 00:30:33,954 --> 00:30:36,795 [Arvid Kahl]: That's right. There's a common narrative, right? And that's kind of what I 773 00:30:36,815 --> 00:30:39,116 [Arvid Kahl]: was trying to describe with the upside-down side thing. 774 00:30:39,671 --> 00:30:39,816 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 775 00:30:39,816 --> 00:30:39,860 [Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 776 00:30:39,860 --> 00:30:43,586 [Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if 777 00:30:43,586 --> 00:30:43,637 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if 778 00:30:43,637 --> 00:30:43,657 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 779 00:30:43,657 --> 00:30:43,838 [Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 780 00:30:43,838 --> 00:30:47,438 [Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck 781 00:30:47,458 --> 00:30:52,119 [Arvid Kahl]: life can be sustained if you don't get a paycheck, right? And it's not your fault 782 00:30:52,159 --> 00:30:56,100 [Arvid Kahl]: necessarily as an employee that this is the reality in which we live in. But 783 00:30:57,301 --> 00:31:01,358 [Arvid Kahl]: to think that this is safe is probably a misconception. So I had to argue 784 00:31:01,398 --> 00:31:05,101 [Arvid Kahl]: these kinds of things to her, which is like talk to like an 86 year old woman 785 00:31:05,482 --> 00:31:10,606 [Arvid Kahl]: about your perspective as a 20 year old while she has been living in multiple 786 00:31:10,646 --> 00:31:13,969 [Arvid Kahl]: different countries. Like we came from East Germany, doesn't exist anymore than 787 00:31:14,009 --> 00:31:17,792 [Arvid Kahl]: had to be in Germany and she had a career there. So she's been through stuff 788 00:31:17,932 --> 00:31:22,276 [Arvid Kahl]: and her perspective is what I know is good and what I can teach this person 789 00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:26,326 [Arvid Kahl]: and what I can help them accomplish is also good. So can't blame it, but I did 790 00:31:26,346 --> 00:31:30,168 [Arvid Kahl]: have to defend it. And one other thing, one other probably more relatable thing 791 00:31:30,208 --> 00:31:35,131 [Arvid Kahl]: for most, like I had to defend my entrepreneurial aspirations to my peers 792 00:31:35,511 --> 00:31:38,032 [Arvid Kahl]: at the last job that I was working in. So 793 00:31:38,225 --> 00:31:38,232 [Tyler Tringas]: Thank 794 00:31:38,232 --> 00:31:38,348 [Arvid Kahl]: when [Tyler Tringas]: Thank 795 00:31:38,348 --> 00:31:38,369 [Arvid Kahl]: when 796 00:31:38,369 --> 00:31:38,372 [Tyler Tringas]: you. [Arvid Kahl]: when 797 00:31:38,372 --> 00:31:38,431 [Tyler Tringas]: you. 798 00:31:38,812 --> 00:31:42,354 [Arvid Kahl]: I was building Feedback Panda, I kind of did it on the side while I was having 799 00:31:42,394 --> 00:31:46,816 [Arvid Kahl]: a full salaried 40 hour a week software engineering position in Hamburg. Like 800 00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:50,770 [Arvid Kahl]: there's this whole story that I often tell is like. me commuting from Berlin 801 00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:55,053 [Arvid Kahl]: to Hamburg allowed me to listen to all these podcasts and read all these books, 802 00:31:55,214 --> 00:31:59,357 [Arvid Kahl]: including your ebook and that kind of stuff to figure out how I wanted to 803 00:31:59,377 --> 00:32:02,379 [Arvid Kahl]: build my next business. All this commute back and forth gave me so much time. 804 00:32:02,619 --> 00:32:07,383 [Arvid Kahl]: So when I was in Hamburg working 40 hours a week and then took some time, like 805 00:32:07,763 --> 00:32:11,066 [Arvid Kahl]: after working, I still stayed in the office and coded on my own project. 806 00:32:11,446 --> 00:32:13,928 [Arvid Kahl]: People just didn't really get it. They were like, why are you doing this? 807 00:32:13,948 --> 00:32:19,591 [Arvid Kahl]: You already have a job. The hardest part about all this was when I then quit because 808 00:32:20,092 --> 00:32:24,274 [Arvid Kahl]: our business already went somewhere and I wanted to focus on something else. They 809 00:32:24,374 --> 00:32:28,296 [Arvid Kahl]: felt almost betrayed. Like it had this kind of notion of hey you were one 810 00:32:28,336 --> 00:32:29,957 [Arvid Kahl]: of us and now you're kind of not anymore. 811 00:32:30,451 --> 00:32:30,618 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 812 00:32:30,618 --> 00:32:30,655 [Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be like a negative thing or this must be some [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 813 00:32:30,655 --> 00:32:35,160 [Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be like a negative thing or this must be some 814 00:32:35,180 --> 00:32:38,903 [Arvid Kahl]: kind of attack. It was pretty strange because these were people that I really 815 00:32:39,563 --> 00:32:43,185 [Arvid Kahl]: went well with until I told them that I didn't want to be an employee anymore. 816 00:32:43,788 --> 00:32:43,935 [Tyler Tringas]: it. 817 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:47,172 [Arvid Kahl]: Like I had mental health reasons there as well. I felt like overwhelmed and 818 00:32:47,212 --> 00:32:50,355 [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't want to do this. And you know, my grandma had just died around that 819 00:32:50,395 --> 00:32:55,539 [Arvid Kahl]: time. So there was that as well. There was just so much animosity that I was 820 00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:59,842 [Arvid Kahl]: exposed to, which was really unfortunate because I didn't expect it from people who 821 00:32:59,902 --> 00:33:04,206 [Arvid Kahl]: were just like me. It turns out they were not necessarily like me. They were 822 00:33:04,246 --> 00:33:09,150 [Arvid Kahl]: just compatible on one level, but very incompatible on another. So yes, I 823 00:33:09,210 --> 00:33:15,089 [Arvid Kahl]: did have to defend it. And I honestly, I just defended it by doing it. and not caring 824 00:33:15,109 --> 00:33:16,116 [Arvid Kahl]: about what other people said. 825 00:33:16,886 --> 00:33:21,629 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think I would encourage other folks and I wonder if this resonates 826 00:33:21,649 --> 00:33:27,093 [Tyler Tringas]: with you, but I think you just have to drop the idea of defending it. I just 827 00:33:27,113 --> 00:33:30,675 [Tyler Tringas]: think like, you know, it's one of those things where people are going 828 00:33:30,695 --> 00:33:36,860 [Tyler Tringas]: to get it or not and, you know, all the energy that you would put into trying 829 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,999 [Tyler Tringas]: to convince that person in your life. Um, that it's, you know, a good 830 00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:47,443 [Tyler Tringas]: idea. You should just put into yourself and basically, you know, recognizing 831 00:33:47,463 --> 00:33:50,565 [Tyler Tringas]: that like, you're just, you're probably not going to convince them and you 832 00:33:50,605 --> 00:33:55,609 [Tyler Tringas]: just need to kind of reconcile that and, and, you know, Just go for it. Right. 833 00:33:55,749 --> 00:33:59,511 [Tyler Tringas]: Like, I just don't think that a lot of upside, I think this is maybe potentially 834 00:34:01,192 --> 00:34:05,916 [Tyler Tringas]: challenging when it's specifically a partner slash like spouse. That's probably 835 00:34:05,956 --> 00:34:09,926 [Tyler Tringas]: like the one area where you really do need to. get some buy in, I think 836 00:34:09,966 --> 00:34:13,467 [Tyler Tringas]: with your family, like unless, I don't know, unless they're financing your 837 00:34:13,507 --> 00:34:16,629 [Tyler Tringas]: lifestyle or something like that, you probably just have to accept the 838 00:34:16,649 --> 00:34:19,830 [Tyler Tringas]: fact that they're not going to get it until you're successful, and then 839 00:34:19,850 --> 00:34:22,751 [Tyler Tringas]: they're going to get it. And like, that's that, like that's how it's going 840 00:34:22,771 --> 00:34:26,273 [Tyler Tringas]: to play out. That's how almost everyone that I know that's gone through that 841 00:34:26,313 --> 00:34:29,454 [Tyler Tringas]: sort of situation, like, they don't get it, they don't get it. And then as 842 00:34:29,474 --> 00:34:32,995 [Tyler Tringas]: soon as you're like, tangibly succeeding, they get it right away. They're 843 00:34:33,015 --> 00:34:36,877 [Tyler Tringas]: like, Oh, that's cool. Great. You know, and like, there's really no shortcut 844 00:34:36,917 --> 00:34:42,361 [Tyler Tringas]: to that process. Um, I wonder actually if it's a bit more challenging with, 845 00:34:42,381 --> 00:34:48,967 [Tyler Tringas]: uh, with a partner. I've never really had to go through that process at the 846 00:34:49,047 --> 00:34:51,091 [Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um, 847 00:34:51,091 --> 00:34:51,295 [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um, 848 00:34:51,295 --> 00:34:51,849 [Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um, 849 00:34:51,969 --> 00:34:58,074 [Tyler Tringas]: I guess did, did you, so, so, you know, I only had a serious partner in my 850 00:34:58,134 --> 00:35:02,338 [Tyler Tringas]: life after, you know, I was single when I started, you know, when I quit 851 00:35:02,358 --> 00:35:05,681 [Tyler Tringas]: my job and started to become an entrepreneur and my business was fairly 852 00:35:05,741 --> 00:35:11,404 [Tyler Tringas]: successful. before I had a serious life partner along that journey. So 853 00:35:12,425 --> 00:35:16,528 [Tyler Tringas]: what about you? Did you have a partner at the early days of this stuff? 854 00:35:16,668 --> 00:35:18,006 [Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing 855 00:35:18,006 --> 00:35:18,089 [Arvid Kahl]: So [Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing 856 00:35:18,089 --> 00:35:18,109 [Arvid Kahl]: So 857 00:35:18,109 --> 00:35:18,286 [Tyler Tringas]: you had to do? [Arvid Kahl]: So 858 00:35:18,286 --> 00:35:18,429 [Tyler Tringas]: you had to do? 859 00:35:19,786 --> 00:35:23,988 [Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And 860 00:35:23,988 --> 00:35:24,047 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And 861 00:35:24,047 --> 00:35:24,087 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 862 00:35:24,087 --> 00:35:24,171 [Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 863 00:35:24,171 --> 00:35:28,708 [Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner 864 00:35:28,769 --> 00:35:30,647 [Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that I'm recording 865 00:35:30,647 --> 00:35:30,769 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that I'm recording 866 00:35:30,769 --> 00:35:30,809 [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 867 00:35:30,809 --> 00:35:30,857 [Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015. [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. 868 00:35:30,857 --> 00:35:32,870 [Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015. 869 00:35:33,890 --> 00:35:34,050 [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. 870 00:35:34,050 --> 00:35:34,121 [Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017 together. So I was still a fully set and salaried [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. 871 00:35:34,121 --> 00:35:39,131 [Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017 together. So I was still a fully set and salaried 872 00:35:39,231 --> 00:35:43,433 [Arvid Kahl]: engineer at the time, even like working half remotely. So I was in Hamburg 873 00:35:43,473 --> 00:35:47,898 [Arvid Kahl]: commuting back and forth for like half of my week. So it was a... a relationship 874 00:35:47,918 --> 00:35:52,579 [Arvid Kahl]: that itself was already pretty tested from the early days on right, you're 875 00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:55,440 [Arvid Kahl]: your partner and some sometimes there's sometimes you're you're gone, you're 876 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,741 [Arvid Kahl]: gonna have a long distance relationship several days a week. So we had a lot of stuff 877 00:35:59,761 --> 00:36:04,302 [Arvid Kahl]: compressed into a very early timeframe there. And then we started the business together 878 00:36:04,322 --> 00:36:08,404 [Arvid Kahl]: in 17. We sold it in 2019. And we moved to Canada two years later in 2021. 879 00:36:08,984 --> 00:36:12,005 [Arvid Kahl]: So that that's kind of the story of our life together. So yeah, 880 00:36:12,048 --> 00:36:12,105 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 881 00:36:12,105 --> 00:36:12,229 [Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 882 00:36:12,229 --> 00:36:15,494 [Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was 883 00:36:15,494 --> 00:36:15,535 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. [Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was 884 00:36:15,535 --> 00:36:15,575 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 885 00:36:15,575 --> 00:36:15,716 [Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she actually also wanted to build it. [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 886 00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:18,726 [Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she actually also wanted to build it. 887 00:36:19,462 --> 00:36:22,825 [Tyler Tringas]: Right, maybe this would be something fun to discuss on Twitter after we 888 00:36:22,865 --> 00:36:23,986 [Tyler Tringas]: publish this to 889 00:36:24,034 --> 00:36:24,066 [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. 890 00:36:24,066 --> 00:36:24,159 [Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could share some stories of having to really get [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. 891 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:28,489 [Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could share some stories of having to really get 892 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:34,875 [Tyler Tringas]: buy-in maybe from a you know default skeptical Partner or spouse and and 893 00:36:34,895 --> 00:36:37,157 [Tyler Tringas]: kind of hear about that because I think that would be really interesting to 894 00:36:37,197 --> 00:36:41,540 [Tyler Tringas]: hear how folks Navigated that that's kind of like one version where you can't 895 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,904 [Tyler Tringas]: just be like well You'll see you know and then just go three years without 896 00:36:46,324 --> 00:36:46,773 [Tyler Tringas]: getting support 897 00:36:46,773 --> 00:36:46,962 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: getting support 898 00:36:46,962 --> 00:36:47,185 [Tyler Tringas]: getting support 899 00:36:47,245 --> 00:36:52,749 [Tyler Tringas]: buy-in from it I wonder if this resonates with you as well. It's kind 900 00:36:52,769 --> 00:36:58,033 [Tyler Tringas]: of like a variation of this, which is feeling behind your peers on more 901 00:36:58,073 --> 00:37:03,297 [Tyler Tringas]: of a traditional path, right? So you're an entrepreneur, maybe you haven't 902 00:37:03,337 --> 00:37:11,043 [Tyler Tringas]: quite gotten the financial success yet, and a small version might be you 903 00:37:11,083 --> 00:37:17,260 [Tyler Tringas]: see some article in... MSN money or whatever that's like, here's how much 904 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,217 [Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the time your ex 905 00:37:19,217 --> 00:37:19,221 [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the time your ex 906 00:37:19,221 --> 00:37:19,261 [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. 907 00:37:19,261 --> 00:37:19,338 [Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa, I don't have anywhere near that much saved [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. 908 00:37:19,338 --> 00:37:23,704 [Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa, I don't have anywhere near that much saved 909 00:37:23,724 --> 00:37:27,427 [Tyler Tringas]: because I've been building equity in this business that's not successful 910 00:37:27,467 --> 00:37:31,509 [Tyler Tringas]: yet. And maybe then more like tangible milestones, right? Maybe people are 911 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:36,153 [Tyler Tringas]: buying houses or maybe they're having kids and all this kind of stuff that 912 00:37:36,173 --> 00:37:40,456 [Tyler Tringas]: you feel like you can't necessarily financially do because you're still in the 913 00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:43,137 [Tyler Tringas]: trenches of entrepreneurship. Did you feel any of that at all? 914 00:37:44,254 --> 00:37:48,777 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm thinking about it. I had friends certainly that had kids and had 915 00:37:48,817 --> 00:37:53,662 [Arvid Kahl]: jobs and that kind of stuff. But I always knew that I don't need to compare 916 00:37:53,682 --> 00:37:56,924 [Arvid Kahl]: myself to people whose lives I don't necessarily want to live. And this is 917 00:37:57,265 --> 00:38:00,427 [Arvid Kahl]: no a hidden dig at my friends, obviously, because they're my friends. But 918 00:38:00,428 --> 00:38:00,638 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 919 00:38:00,768 --> 00:38:04,050 [Arvid Kahl]: the choices that they made were theirs to make and not necessarily mine. So 920 00:38:04,331 --> 00:38:09,651 [Arvid Kahl]: I don't think I compared my lifestyle with with them much. But I always felt that 921 00:38:09,731 --> 00:38:13,293 [Arvid Kahl]: the security that some people had financially by just having been around 922 00:38:13,333 --> 00:38:16,235 [Arvid Kahl]: and having already understood that's, that's an important part too, I'm going 923 00:38:16,255 --> 00:38:19,858 [Arvid Kahl]: to get to this in a second, how to invest, what to invest, like have their 924 00:38:20,158 --> 00:38:24,221 [Arvid Kahl]: employer pay half of whatever contribution they may have and build equity 925 00:38:24,321 --> 00:38:28,924 [Arvid Kahl]: in, in the market or in money markets or whatever over, over their, um, their 926 00:38:28,964 --> 00:38:34,888 [Arvid Kahl]: work lifetime. That was something that I was even just kind of exposed to 927 00:38:35,587 --> 00:38:35,671 [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm 928 00:38:36,169 --> 00:38:39,886 [Arvid Kahl]: late in life. I didn't even have a frame of reference to be kind of jealous 929 00:38:39,986 --> 00:38:41,521 [Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because 930 00:38:41,521 --> 00:38:41,684 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah [Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because 931 00:38:41,727 --> 00:38:45,188 [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't even know that that was an option. Again, my grandma, she's great, 932 00:38:45,328 --> 00:38:49,809 [Arvid Kahl]: but she had very strong opinions about what investment looks like or what savings 933 00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:52,950 [Arvid Kahl]: look like. For her, that was like put money in a savings account every now and 934 00:38:52,970 --> 00:38:56,091 [Arvid Kahl]: then and that's it. Get like the rates that whatever the bank pays you. Because 935 00:38:56,151 --> 00:38:59,792 [Arvid Kahl]: again, East Germany, different story, her whole life was structured in a certain 936 00:38:59,812 --> 00:39:03,233 [Arvid Kahl]: way and she kind of taught that. I had to do a lot of unlearning as you can 937 00:39:03,273 --> 00:39:03,753 [Arvid Kahl]: probably tell. 938 00:39:04,066 --> 00:39:04,170 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 939 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:04,234 [Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've been kind of educated with as I grew up in [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 940 00:39:04,234 --> 00:39:07,212 [Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've been kind of educated with as I grew up in 941 00:39:07,252 --> 00:39:13,798 [Arvid Kahl]: that space. And she was burned, I think, by the local credit union style bank, 942 00:39:14,438 --> 00:39:20,283 [Arvid Kahl]: investing their money into really, really bad mutual funds that never made any 943 00:39:20,323 --> 00:39:24,907 [Arvid Kahl]: money. So they kind of lost a lot of money on this. So any investment into 944 00:39:25,007 --> 00:39:29,090 [Arvid Kahl]: anything in the market was a no go for her. That was how it was financially 945 00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:29,631 [Arvid Kahl]: educated. 946 00:39:30,274 --> 00:39:30,331 [Tyler Tringas]: Whoa. 947 00:39:30,331 --> 00:39:30,456 [Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right? So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first [Tyler Tringas]: Whoa. 948 00:39:30,456 --> 00:39:36,966 [Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right? So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first 949 00:39:37,147 --> 00:39:41,868 [Arvid Kahl]: in that business in Hamburg was exposed to a fellow developer who talked about 950 00:39:41,948 --> 00:39:45,309 [Arvid Kahl]: investing in the stock market and ETFs and that kind of stuff and how this 951 00:39:45,369 --> 00:39:51,170 [Arvid Kahl]: is actually a much saner approach than buying into heavily into mutual funds 952 00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:55,872 [Arvid Kahl]: or that kind of stuff that your bank tries to push on you. Any sane person 953 00:39:55,892 --> 00:39:58,872 [Arvid Kahl]: looking at this from the outside was like, why are they trying to sell me this? 954 00:39:58,953 --> 00:40:03,634 [Arvid Kahl]: Like, obviously there's more in that for them than for me. So That education 955 00:40:03,674 --> 00:40:07,496 [Arvid Kahl]: came at a super late part in my life. And ever since then, I've been working 956 00:40:07,576 --> 00:40:11,338 [Arvid Kahl]: on getting to that. But it's not because of comparison with my peers, it's because 957 00:40:11,358 --> 00:40:14,979 [Arvid Kahl]: of not being educated in that space at all. Honestly, I think the first book 958 00:40:14,999 --> 00:40:19,321 [Arvid Kahl]: that I ever read that explained this to me more clearly was Tony Robbins, like 959 00:40:19,361 --> 00:40:23,362 [Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's not necessarily the best book about finances, 960 00:40:23,362 --> 00:40:23,683 [Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get [Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's not necessarily the best book about finances, 961 00:40:23,683 --> 00:40:23,744 [Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get 962 00:40:23,744 --> 00:40:23,785 [Arvid Kahl]: but 963 00:40:23,785 --> 00:40:23,864 [Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know? [Arvid Kahl]: but 964 00:40:23,864 --> 00:40:25,054 [Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know? 965 00:40:25,724 --> 00:40:30,366 [Arvid Kahl]: it showed me a path beyond. like just putting some money in some bank account 966 00:40:30,406 --> 00:40:35,868 [Arvid Kahl]: and getting like minus 3% a year because the economy tech. So it's, but for 967 00:40:35,908 --> 00:40:40,549 [Arvid Kahl]: me, I did feel behind in just the sense of security that I had in my life, 968 00:40:40,669 --> 00:40:45,070 [Arvid Kahl]: which was one of the reasons why we actually sold the business when we sold 969 00:40:45,110 --> 00:40:45,740 [Arvid Kahl]: it, because 970 00:40:45,740 --> 00:40:45,810 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. [Arvid Kahl]: it, because 971 00:40:45,810 --> 00:40:45,850 [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. 972 00:40:45,850 --> 00:40:45,971 [Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity we had in this business at that point making [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. 973 00:40:45,971 --> 00:40:50,432 [Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity we had in this business at that point making 974 00:40:50,492 --> 00:40:57,353 [Arvid Kahl]: 600K in ARR, so it was substantial already. It was technically by all just... 975 00:40:58,202 --> 00:41:01,604 [Arvid Kahl]: guesses of how much something could be worth a million dollar business, which 976 00:41:01,644 --> 00:41:08,009 [Arvid Kahl]: it then turned out to be in the end when we sold it. But we we both had nothing 977 00:41:08,089 --> 00:41:12,532 [Arvid Kahl]: else. Like we had no savings really, other than the weird stuff in our bank, which 978 00:41:12,572 --> 00:41:16,635 [Arvid Kahl]: was like a couple thousand bucks. We had a paycheck to paycheck kind of life 979 00:41:16,655 --> 00:41:19,657 [Arvid Kahl]: because we were living in Berlin, the middle of a big city, which is expensive 980 00:41:20,077 --> 00:41:20,191 [Arvid Kahl]: and I 981 00:41:20,191 --> 00:41:20,237 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: and I 982 00:41:20,237 --> 00:41:20,277 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 983 00:41:20,277 --> 00:41:20,395 [Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling back and forth, even though the company helped [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 984 00:41:20,395 --> 00:41:23,359 [Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling back and forth, even though the company helped 985 00:41:23,379 --> 00:41:28,531 [Arvid Kahl]: me with this, it was never free, right? And... we understood that, wow, this 986 00:41:28,651 --> 00:41:33,616 [Arvid Kahl]: is the only thing that's valuable and it's gigantically valuable in comparison 987 00:41:33,636 --> 00:41:37,840 [Arvid Kahl]: to what else we have. If we lose this business because of, you know, the business 988 00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:41,983 [Arvid Kahl]: implodes because of the market or some regulation, which funny enough it did 989 00:41:42,023 --> 00:41:45,366 [Arvid Kahl]: like a couple months ago, right? China introduced some weird regulation that 990 00:41:45,386 --> 00:41:50,291 [Arvid Kahl]: makes it impossible for a person to teach English online anymore without living 991 00:41:50,351 --> 00:41:54,026 [Arvid Kahl]: in China itself. So Feedback Panda, the business that we built, It doesn't exist 992 00:41:54,066 --> 00:41:55,225 [Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like, 993 00:41:55,225 --> 00:41:55,447 [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. [Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like, 994 00:41:55,447 --> 00:41:55,467 [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. 995 00:41:55,467 --> 00:41:55,486 [Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it down because there was nobody paying money [Tyler Tringas]: Okay. 996 00:41:55,486 --> 00:41:59,551 [Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it down because there was nobody paying money 997 00:41:59,591 --> 00:42:01,422 [Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't do the work that we 998 00:42:01,422 --> 00:42:01,433 [Tyler Tringas]: All [Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't do the work that we 999 00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:01,453 [Tyler Tringas]: All 1000 00:42:01,453 --> 00:42:02,686 [Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate [Tyler Tringas]: All 1001 00:42:02,686 --> 00:42:02,786 [Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate 1002 00:42:02,786 --> 00:42:03,027 [Tyler Tringas]: right. [Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate 1003 00:42:03,027 --> 00:42:03,135 [Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate 1004 00:42:03,155 --> 00:42:06,237 [Arvid Kahl]: that it happened, and I'm kind of glad it didn't happen to us. It happened 1005 00:42:06,278 --> 00:42:09,480 [Arvid Kahl]: to a company that could handle such a financial loss, right? 1006 00:42:09,488 --> 00:42:09,581 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 1007 00:42:09,581 --> 00:42:13,464 [Arvid Kahl]: Like, if that would have been us, everything we built over years would have [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 1008 00:42:13,464 --> 00:42:13,484 [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 1009 00:42:13,484 --> 00:42:14,538 [Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point. [Tyler Tringas]: Right. 1010 00:42:14,538 --> 00:42:14,578 [Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point. 1011 00:42:14,578 --> 00:42:14,759 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point. 1012 00:42:14,759 --> 00:42:14,765 [Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point. 1013 00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:18,671 [Arvid Kahl]: which is why I was super stressed about it, had like the kind of, oh, the bus 1014 00:42:18,711 --> 00:42:23,572 [Arvid Kahl]: factor is incredibly high and it's so undiversified, we need to diversify 1015 00:42:23,772 --> 00:42:28,114 [Arvid Kahl]: our investments. Again, something I had never known about before, but now I knew 1016 00:42:28,154 --> 00:42:31,235 [Arvid Kahl]: and now I understood because I had people who work smart about investments 1017 00:42:31,275 --> 00:42:35,356 [Arvid Kahl]: tell me about this as well. So that's the thing that I felt I would need to 1018 00:42:35,376 --> 00:42:39,177 [Arvid Kahl]: catch up, just securing my own life by diversifying my investments. Hence 1019 00:42:39,197 --> 00:42:43,990 [Arvid Kahl]: we sold the business. and got invested into fine funds such as the calm company 1020 00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:45,752 [Arvid Kahl]: fund, for example, right? Like 1021 00:42:45,770 --> 00:42:45,872 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1022 00:42:45,872 --> 00:42:45,973 [Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this for me, like investing in your fund was one [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1023 00:42:45,973 --> 00:42:49,796 [Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this for me, like investing in your fund was one 1024 00:42:49,836 --> 00:42:52,219 [Arvid Kahl]: of the things I did to diversify. So 1025 00:42:52,478 --> 00:42:52,680 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1026 00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:56,584 [Arvid Kahl]: yeah, you know, so yes, I did feel behind and I needed to catch up. 1027 00:42:57,390 --> 00:43:04,053 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, yeah, I think I felt some of that too. I think some things that 1028 00:43:04,133 --> 00:43:08,976 [Tyler Tringas]: resonated for me Over the years that kind of helped me maintain a little more 1029 00:43:09,016 --> 00:43:16,120 [Tyler Tringas]: kind of calm about that because it is easy to sort of feel behind So the first 1030 00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:20,323 [Tyler Tringas]: one that resonated for me was leaning into some of the stuff that you can 1031 00:43:20,383 --> 00:43:25,646 [Tyler Tringas]: do as an entrepreneur that you couldn't do with a job, right so like I 1032 00:43:25,686 --> 00:43:31,290 [Tyler Tringas]: think it can be really tough to be just like in exactly the same sort of 1033 00:43:31,751 --> 00:43:36,495 [Tyler Tringas]: position as your peers, let's say your peers from college or something like 1034 00:43:36,535 --> 00:43:39,837 [Tyler Tringas]: that. Like you're living in the same cities, in the same neighborhoods, 1035 00:43:40,138 --> 00:43:43,641 [Tyler Tringas]: trying to buy the same houses, trying to do the same activities, you know, 1036 00:43:43,701 --> 00:43:47,164 [Tyler Tringas]: all this kind of stuff, except you're the like struggling entrepreneur and 1037 00:43:47,184 --> 00:43:50,346 [Tyler Tringas]: they're the like successful corporate person. That sounds like setting 1038 00:43:50,366 --> 00:43:56,896 [Tyler Tringas]: yourself up for like a really difficult time mentally. So I think like one 1039 00:43:56,936 --> 00:44:00,118 [Tyler Tringas]: thing that comes to mind is this overlap between a lot of entrepreneurs 1040 00:44:00,158 --> 00:44:03,521 [Tyler Tringas]: becoming digital nomads. And I'm not saying like every entrepreneur should 1041 00:44:03,541 --> 00:44:08,965 [Tyler Tringas]: become digital nomads, but you know, you have this like kind of sort of 1042 00:44:09,065 --> 00:44:12,969 [Tyler Tringas]: judo way of turning around some of the negatives into a positive. Like, 1043 00:44:13,329 --> 00:44:16,912 [Tyler Tringas]: yes, you have to work a lot. And yes, you maybe don't have as much disposable 1044 00:44:16,992 --> 00:44:21,295 [Tyler Tringas]: income, you know, month over month, if you kind of graph it. But you do 1045 00:44:21,335 --> 00:44:25,158 [Tyler Tringas]: have a lot more flexibility in terms of where you are. Right. And so you 1046 00:44:25,178 --> 00:44:30,062 [Tyler Tringas]: can sort of lean into, well, I can go live in Bali for six months. And that's 1047 00:44:30,082 --> 00:44:34,385 [Tyler Tringas]: pretty cool. You know, and so there's like a, um, there's an upside to 1048 00:44:34,425 --> 00:44:38,989 [Tyler Tringas]: being an entrepreneur as well. And so I think kind of looking for, you know, 1049 00:44:39,069 --> 00:44:44,093 [Tyler Tringas]: those opportunities to, um, you know, to take advantage of some of the 1050 00:44:44,133 --> 00:44:47,135 [Tyler Tringas]: things that are unlocked by being an entrepreneur, mainly the ability to 1051 00:44:47,155 --> 00:44:52,107 [Tyler Tringas]: travel, the ability to work remotely, the ability to. frankly, you can 1052 00:44:52,167 --> 00:44:55,990 [Tyler Tringas]: take more time off, right? You know, if you're able to do that, right? 1053 00:44:56,030 --> 00:44:58,859 [Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to some level where that's possible, and sometimes 1054 00:44:58,859 --> 00:44:59,048 [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to some level where that's possible, and sometimes 1055 00:44:59,048 --> 00:44:59,073 [Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to some level where that's possible, and sometimes 1056 00:44:59,093 --> 00:45:02,717 [Tyler Tringas]: that's a lot sooner than you think, you know, the capacity to take six straight 1057 00:45:02,737 --> 00:45:06,761 [Tyler Tringas]: weeks off, which is basically impossible for, you know, anybody in a corporate 1058 00:45:06,781 --> 00:45:11,505 [Tyler Tringas]: job. So I think I definitely leaned into that heavily, and that helped me 1059 00:45:11,525 --> 00:45:14,914 [Tyler Tringas]: a lot. with the early days of challenging, it was like, okay, I'm pretty 1060 00:45:14,934 --> 00:45:18,615 [Tyler Tringas]: much broke. I have like no money, you know, like very minimal amount coming 1061 00:45:18,735 --> 00:45:23,537 [Tyler Tringas]: in, very way behind on where I should be on savings, but I get to travel 1062 00:45:23,557 --> 00:45:27,498 [Tyler Tringas]: the world. I went to like 40 countries. I lived out of a backpack. I did 1063 00:45:27,558 --> 00:45:32,119 [Tyler Tringas]: all this cool stuff, you know. So it was like, even if I kind of finish this 1064 00:45:32,219 --> 00:45:35,440 [Tyler Tringas]: and none of these businesses work, I actually still won't regret this period 1065 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,461 [Tyler Tringas]: of time. Like I'll have less money than my peers, but I will have so many 1066 00:45:39,501 --> 00:45:43,467 [Tyler Tringas]: incredible experiences that Like it'll feel like a pretty good investment. 1067 00:45:43,547 --> 00:45:51,794 [Tyler Tringas]: I think overall so that was like one that was pretty useful I'm gonna say 1068 00:45:52,114 --> 00:45:58,079 [Tyler Tringas]: I think Another thing that's kind of nice and I'm curious if this kind of 1069 00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:05,565 [Tyler Tringas]: resonates for you as well, but I have found that Entrepreneurship really 1070 00:46:05,625 --> 00:46:11,642 [Tyler Tringas]: helps me avoid the hedonic treadmill and the life inflation aspect Right? 1071 00:46:11,702 --> 00:46:16,443 [Tyler Tringas]: So like, you know, your income and your savings are these numerical numbers, 1072 00:46:16,543 --> 00:46:24,125 [Tyler Tringas]: but they are also relative to how much you spend. Right. And so the sort 1073 00:46:24,165 --> 00:46:28,447 [Tyler Tringas]: of lumpiness of the cash flows of entrepreneurship, the fact that they're 1074 00:46:28,467 --> 00:46:32,068 [Tyler Tringas]: not that reliable, but when they do come, they come in like generally like 1075 00:46:32,088 --> 00:46:40,115 [Tyler Tringas]: very large chunks has kind of helped me avoid the the constant, you know, 1076 00:46:40,275 --> 00:46:43,618 [Tyler Tringas]: okay, you get this raise and then you raise your spending by exactly the 1077 00:46:43,658 --> 00:46:47,421 [Tyler Tringas]: same amount. And so you get this point where you're really on this treadmill 1078 00:46:47,441 --> 00:46:51,084 [Tyler Tringas]: that's turned up to 11 and you have to continue making this very high 1079 00:46:51,144 --> 00:46:55,888 [Tyler Tringas]: salary just to sort of stay in place because your cost basis is so high. 1080 00:46:56,169 --> 00:46:59,852 [Tyler Tringas]: I think one nice thing that entrepreneurship does is it forces you to keep 1081 00:47:00,092 --> 00:47:04,556 [Tyler Tringas]: that level low. And there's a benefit to that, which is that you have so 1082 00:47:04,596 --> 00:47:08,899 [Tyler Tringas]: much more flexibility in your life. Whether or not it's other entrepreneurial 1083 00:47:08,939 --> 00:47:13,003 [Tyler Tringas]: ventures or other things like that, I think a source of a lot of unhappiness 1084 00:47:13,463 --> 00:47:17,426 [Tyler Tringas]: in middle age for a lot of folks is this hedonic treadmill where, yeah, 1085 00:47:17,466 --> 00:47:22,290 [Tyler Tringas]: they've had nice steady success and now their base level of existence is they 1086 00:47:22,330 --> 00:47:29,757 [Tyler Tringas]: need to make $500,000, $600,000 a year just to stay in place. That means they 1087 00:47:29,777 --> 00:47:34,861 [Tyler Tringas]: can absolutely never take a year off and go and try to write a book or 1088 00:47:34,941 --> 00:47:39,436 [Tyler Tringas]: try to. do some experiment or start a company or whatever. And so, I wanna 1089 00:47:39,976 --> 00:47:44,559 [Tyler Tringas]: encourage folks to appreciate that upside that even though it feels kind 1090 00:47:44,579 --> 00:47:47,761 [Tyler Tringas]: of limiting in the moment that you wish you had a little more disposable income, 1091 00:47:48,202 --> 00:47:53,085 [Tyler Tringas]: that dynamic is actually going to be a source of, I think pretty substantial 1092 00:47:53,125 --> 00:47:59,029 [Tyler Tringas]: happiness at like a decade long time scale. And so, just kind of focusing 1093 00:47:59,049 --> 00:48:00,289 [Tyler Tringas]: on that I think is valuable. 1094 00:48:01,562 --> 00:48:04,902 [Arvid Kahl]: I really appreciate that because I feel the same way. I honestly like most people 1095 00:48:04,922 --> 00:48:07,583 [Arvid Kahl]: when I talked to them about the sale, the exit of the business, they asked 1096 00:48:07,603 --> 00:48:10,271 [Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right? There's always this this big 1097 00:48:10,271 --> 00:48:10,355 [Tyler Tringas]: No. [Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right? There's always this this big 1098 00:48:10,355 --> 00:48:10,364 [Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right? There's always this this big 1099 00:48:10,404 --> 00:48:13,143 [Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like, I got a MacBook Pro, I think 1100 00:48:13,143 --> 00:48:13,265 [Tyler Tringas]: Yes. [Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like, I got a MacBook Pro, I think 1101 00:48:13,265 --> 00:48:13,374 [Tyler Tringas]: Yes. 1102 00:48:14,085 --> 00:48:17,846 [Arvid Kahl]: I got a new computer so I could write better or I could write in one room and 1103 00:48:17,886 --> 00:48:21,747 [Arvid Kahl]: watch videos in the other. That was like my leveling up at that point. And 1104 00:48:22,087 --> 00:48:26,128 [Arvid Kahl]: it has felt like this ever since because I think you're on to something here 1105 00:48:26,148 --> 00:48:31,114 [Arvid Kahl]: with the lack of reliable numbers that you see growing every month. I just did 1106 00:48:31,134 --> 00:48:36,055 [Arvid Kahl]: my taxes. So it was tax season here in Canada, like until I think the 30th 1107 00:48:36,135 --> 00:48:39,536 [Arvid Kahl]: of April is that last tax day. And obviously that meant I did my taxes on 1108 00:48:39,596 --> 00:48:40,476 [Arvid Kahl]: the 30th of April. 1109 00:48:40,782 --> 00:48:41,037 [Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD. 1110 00:48:41,037 --> 00:48:41,151 [Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the data from the business together and something [Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD. 1111 00:48:41,151 --> 00:48:46,618 [Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the data from the business together and something 1112 00:48:46,698 --> 00:48:51,310 [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this was a six-figure business. I did not notice. 1113 00:48:51,310 --> 00:48:51,616 [Tyler Tringas]: See you. [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this was a six-figure business. I did not notice. 1114 00:48:51,616 --> 00:48:52,220 [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this was a six-figure business. I did not notice. 1115 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:57,686 [Arvid Kahl]: I was not aware of the fact that all my media business is now actually. six 1116 00:48:57,706 --> 00:49:01,247 [Arvid Kahl]: figure business and I saw this on the text sheet because with that number 1117 00:49:01,287 --> 00:49:05,869 [Arvid Kahl]: comes an equally high tax payment that you have to pay and Expenses were manageable 1118 00:49:05,949 --> 00:49:09,130 [Arvid Kahl]: all that kind of stuff it was very interesting to see but the lump thing 1119 00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:12,952 [Arvid Kahl]: that the fact that it's distributed over so many ways and I think every month I 1120 00:49:12,992 --> 00:49:18,755 [Arvid Kahl]: have like 30 different items on my just where money comes in because Amazon 1121 00:49:18,775 --> 00:49:23,216 [Arvid Kahl]: has like 12 different locations where the payments for the books come in and 1122 00:49:23,236 --> 00:49:23,459 [Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me through some weird methods somewhere else and [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1123 00:49:23,459 --> 00:49:27,310 [Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me through some weird methods somewhere else and 1124 00:49:27,350 --> 00:49:31,611 [Arvid Kahl]: then some goes to PayPal and Gumroad is here and Podia was there and there's Udemy 1125 00:49:31,671 --> 00:49:35,032 [Arvid Kahl]: and there's Skillshare. All these different things just pay random things at 1126 00:49:35,072 --> 00:49:39,673 [Arvid Kahl]: random times so you don't really see this big monthly up and down. You just 1127 00:49:39,713 --> 00:49:43,595 [Arvid Kahl]: really see this trickle in and some random capacity. So you develop this. 1128 00:49:44,015 --> 00:49:47,516 [Arvid Kahl]: I can only spend this much this month because you know, haven't seen much money 1129 00:49:47,536 --> 00:49:51,577 [Arvid Kahl]: for a couple months. Let's just see. Let's just be smart about it. So it surprised 1130 00:49:51,617 --> 00:49:56,182 [Arvid Kahl]: me to see how much money actually came in. but also how much I kept because, 1131 00:49:56,302 --> 00:49:59,404 [Arvid Kahl]: you know, if I don't see it come in, I don't see it, I don't spend it, which 1132 00:49:59,444 --> 00:50:02,905 [Arvid Kahl]: is great. And I think this is a consequence of having had this behavior where 1133 00:50:02,985 --> 00:50:06,747 [Arvid Kahl]: no money was coming in in the past. It just sounds like the worst humble 1134 00:50:06,767 --> 00:50:12,129 [Arvid Kahl]: bag in history, but the idea is I think I've always had this, let's just be 1135 00:50:12,369 --> 00:50:16,311 [Arvid Kahl]: frugal about this. I mean, now I'm buying a lot of studio equipment. I think 1136 00:50:16,331 --> 00:50:20,813 [Arvid Kahl]: my biggest expenses are microphones, monitors, and cameras at this point to be able 1137 00:50:20,853 --> 00:50:25,188 [Arvid Kahl]: to do what I do. I don't spend money on cars. I don't even own a car. Like 1138 00:50:25,208 --> 00:50:29,492 [Arvid Kahl]: we have one family car and it's not mine. I like walking to the store and that's 1139 00:50:29,592 --> 00:50:34,016 [Arvid Kahl]: my life, right? It's just, there is no kind of keeping up with the Joneses kind 1140 00:50:34,056 --> 00:50:38,880 [Arvid Kahl]: of creep in my life because I don't like that. And I never was a person to 1141 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,403 [Arvid Kahl]: do this, frankly, because I never had enough money to start. That's kind of how 1142 00:50:42,423 --> 00:50:45,886 [Arvid Kahl]: I feel. I never had enough income to even start keeping up with other people. 1143 00:50:46,206 --> 00:50:50,109 [Arvid Kahl]: And now that I have, I don't need that. I invested in my business again, which 1144 00:50:50,149 --> 00:50:55,665 [Arvid Kahl]: is... and our lives here too, like in this fine province of Ontario, we just 1145 00:50:55,685 --> 00:50:59,228 [Arvid Kahl]: building our little life here and having a nice house and having time with 1146 00:50:59,268 --> 00:51:04,312 [Arvid Kahl]: family and friends, that's what we spend our money on, not necessarily fancy 1147 00:51:04,692 --> 00:51:09,736 [Arvid Kahl]: things. So yeah, sorry, that's just derailed into a description of my financial 1148 00:51:10,576 --> 00:51:17,141 [Arvid Kahl]: life. But honestly, I think this is something that is a consequence of me never 1149 00:51:17,241 --> 00:51:22,496 [Arvid Kahl]: really. following the salaried employee narrative. And I think you brought 1150 00:51:22,536 --> 00:51:28,063 [Arvid Kahl]: this up just now with, you know, when should you do what, right? The narrative 1151 00:51:28,103 --> 00:51:33,231 [Arvid Kahl]: that we all are part of an economy and everybody should contribute and be compensated 1152 00:51:33,251 --> 00:51:37,627 [Arvid Kahl]: for it for 45 years and then you retire. That kind of narrative. Or you have 1153 00:51:37,647 --> 00:51:41,230 [Arvid Kahl]: to find a job, you have to then immediately buy a house and be in a place and 1154 00:51:41,250 --> 00:51:44,532 [Arvid Kahl]: you can never be a nomad, right? Because you have to start a family and have 1155 00:51:44,572 --> 00:51:48,916 [Arvid Kahl]: to pay like for a car, get a loan here, get a loan for that, the standard narrative 1156 00:51:48,936 --> 00:51:53,079 [Arvid Kahl]: that most people follow. And I think you, you, by mentioning just digital 1157 00:51:53,319 --> 00:51:57,803 [Arvid Kahl]: nomadism, that just completely breaks the paradigm. And that is a wonderful 1158 00:51:57,883 --> 00:52:01,205 [Arvid Kahl]: idea for an entrepreneur is to start breaking narrative paradigms. Right? 1159 00:52:01,426 --> 00:52:04,547 [Arvid Kahl]: about what a business should look like. Should you get VC funding? Yeah, sure, 1160 00:52:04,607 --> 00:52:08,249 [Arvid Kahl]: every business needs funding, right? No, that is not necessarily true. Or 1161 00:52:08,469 --> 00:52:12,031 [Arvid Kahl]: should you build it in secret and then sell it to whoever wants it? Well, 1162 00:52:12,051 --> 00:52:15,894 [Arvid Kahl]: maybe that's also not a narrative that's true. Maybe you can do this in a more 1163 00:52:15,934 --> 00:52:20,156 [Arvid Kahl]: public sphere. I think what this boils down to me for is breaking the paradigms 1164 00:52:20,196 --> 00:52:23,958 [Arvid Kahl]: of narrative that are established in the society around us. And unfortunately, 1165 00:52:24,078 --> 00:52:28,761 [Arvid Kahl]: often enough, this narrative is parroted by our parents, by our spouses, by 1166 00:52:28,781 --> 00:52:32,583 [Arvid Kahl]: our friends, and by our colleagues. I kind of to bring this all together. Like 1167 00:52:32,623 --> 00:52:37,545 [Arvid Kahl]: the fact that we have such trouble with them understanding what we're doing is 1168 00:52:37,585 --> 00:52:41,187 [Arvid Kahl]: that they are living the narrative of somebody else and they are repeating the 1169 00:52:41,227 --> 00:52:44,969 [Arvid Kahl]: narrative that somebody else has instilled in them. Our schools, our social 1170 00:52:45,009 --> 00:52:51,473 [Arvid Kahl]: systems, our economic theory that whatever country is following at any given 1171 00:52:51,513 --> 00:52:55,075 [Arvid Kahl]: time, all of this kind of trickles down into narratives that we hopefully can 1172 00:52:55,115 --> 00:53:01,319 [Arvid Kahl]: break. So I don't know why I'm here now at this point. My train of thought 1173 00:53:01,339 --> 00:53:03,802 [Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted and I exited 1174 00:53:03,802 --> 00:53:03,822 [Tyler Tringas]: Let's [Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted and I exited 1175 00:53:03,822 --> 00:53:03,862 [Tyler Tringas]: Let's 1176 00:53:03,862 --> 00:53:04,062 [Arvid Kahl]: at the [Tyler Tringas]: Let's 1177 00:53:04,062 --> 00:53:04,083 [Arvid Kahl]: at the 1178 00:53:04,102 --> 00:53:04,123 [Tyler Tringas]: bring 1179 00:53:04,123 --> 00:53:04,282 [Arvid Kahl]: station. [Tyler Tringas]: bring 1180 00:53:04,282 --> 00:53:04,322 [Arvid Kahl]: station. 1181 00:53:04,322 --> 00:53:04,423 [Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you you made a great point there, which is and [Arvid Kahl]: station. 1182 00:53:04,423 --> 00:53:08,703 [Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you you made a great point there, which is and 1183 00:53:09,003 --> 00:53:11,884 [Tyler Tringas]: I wanted to sort of talk a little bit about, okay, what, what do we think 1184 00:53:11,964 --> 00:53:15,545 [Tyler Tringas]: you know, maybe other folks who are feeling a lot of these feelings that 1185 00:53:15,565 --> 00:53:17,466 [Tyler Tringas]: we've been describing could do and 1186 00:53:17,867 --> 00:53:18,066 [Arvid Kahl]: Yes. 1187 00:53:18,066 --> 00:53:18,113 [Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched on the number one thing which is not. It's [Arvid Kahl]: Yes. 1188 00:53:18,113 --> 00:53:21,787 [Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched on the number one thing which is not. It's 1189 00:53:21,827 --> 00:53:25,688 [Tyler Tringas]: like kind of straightforward and simple and a lot of folks have unpacked 1190 00:53:25,708 --> 00:53:30,770 [Tyler Tringas]: in a bunch of different ways, but just kind of like assessing the. You know, 1191 00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:36,293 [Tyler Tringas]: the script or the playbook or the narrative that you sort of have this 1192 00:53:36,333 --> 00:53:40,255 [Tyler Tringas]: perception that you're supposed to be on and really just questioning that, 1193 00:53:40,395 --> 00:53:45,258 [Tyler Tringas]: right? I mean, a lot of entrepreneurship is questioning other narratives about, you 1194 00:53:45,278 --> 00:53:48,500 [Tyler Tringas]: know, the world, right? You know, okay, this market is saturated. Nobody 1195 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,942 [Tyler Tringas]: else could enter it. Is that really true? You know, like a lot of the opportunities 1196 00:53:51,962 --> 00:53:56,065 [Tyler Tringas]: come from that. And sometimes we forget to apply that same kind of critical 1197 00:53:56,085 --> 00:54:00,631 [Tyler Tringas]: lens to. our own lives, right? To the narratives that we tell ourselves that 1198 00:54:00,711 --> 00:54:03,673 [Tyler Tringas]: other people try to impose on us to say like, well, you should be doing 1199 00:54:03,833 --> 00:54:08,976 [Tyler Tringas]: X, Y, and Z. And, and you can sort of take that same entrepreneurs kind of 1200 00:54:09,096 --> 00:54:14,279 [Tyler Tringas]: skeptical, critical thinking analysis to it and say like, wait, is that 1201 00:54:14,339 --> 00:54:17,741 [Tyler Tringas]: true? And what do you often find is like, no, you don't have to do that 1202 00:54:17,781 --> 00:54:23,104 [Tyler Tringas]: at all. Like, you can actually do whatever you want in your life. And what's 1203 00:54:23,124 --> 00:54:29,701 [Tyler Tringas]: been really helpful for me personally has been to connect with not just 1204 00:54:29,841 --> 00:54:32,043 [Tyler Tringas]: so we're going to I was going to suggest, you know, connecting with other 1205 00:54:32,083 --> 00:54:34,605 [Tyler Tringas]: entrepreneurs, I think that's kind of the no brainer, which is try to find 1206 00:54:34,625 --> 00:54:37,348 [Tyler Tringas]: your community. And we can talk a little about that. But but also just 1207 00:54:37,368 --> 00:54:41,752 [Tyler Tringas]: connecting with other people who are living lives that are just very different. 1208 00:54:42,552 --> 00:54:47,517 [Tyler Tringas]: I got this primarily just from traveling a ton. But there's certainly other 1209 00:54:47,537 --> 00:54:50,840 [Tyler Tringas]: ways you could probably do this. But but getting a firsthand experience 1210 00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:55,669 [Tyler Tringas]: of other people who are living dramatically sort of off script lifestyles 1211 00:54:55,709 --> 00:54:59,793 [Tyler Tringas]: and this could be maybe through podcasts or whatever but just sort of hearing 1212 00:54:59,933 --> 00:55:05,198 [Tyler Tringas]: other people Describe a non-traditional approach to their lives. I think helps you 1213 00:55:05,218 --> 00:55:09,943 [Tyler Tringas]: like widen the aperture of What's allowed what's possible, you know and 1214 00:55:10,043 --> 00:55:14,768 [Tyler Tringas]: and I think really reinforcing that to say like yeah A bunch of people think 1215 00:55:14,828 --> 00:55:18,652 [Tyler Tringas]: I'm off script here But like, that's okay. And a lot of people live their 1216 00:55:18,692 --> 00:55:22,436 [Tyler Tringas]: lives that way, and it's fine, you know? You don't have to do any of those 1217 00:55:22,476 --> 00:55:26,600 [Tyler Tringas]: narratives. So I think that's like kind of step one, is just like this base 1218 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,683 [Tyler Tringas]: level understanding that, you know, you can just kind of do whatever you 1219 00:55:29,723 --> 00:55:31,905 [Tyler Tringas]: want. Yeah. 1220 00:55:32,338 --> 00:55:32,498 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 1221 00:55:32,585 --> 00:55:32,725 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1222 00:55:32,758 --> 00:55:35,300 [Arvid Kahl]: that's also what Paul is writing about in like 1223 00:55:35,310 --> 00:55:35,320 [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 1224 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:35,490 [Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right? [Tyler Tringas]: Sure. 1225 00:55:35,490 --> 00:55:36,536 [Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right? 1226 00:55:36,536 --> 00:55:36,560 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right? 1227 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:36,737 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1228 00:55:37,061 --> 00:55:42,064 [Arvid Kahl]: Let's bring that book into the mix here as well. The path that you choose 1229 00:55:42,724 --> 00:55:47,006 [Arvid Kahl]: can just also be one of wandering around intentionally, right? It doesn't need 1230 00:55:47,026 --> 00:55:50,028 [Arvid Kahl]: to be somebody else's script you follow. It could be just you be writing your 1231 00:55:50,068 --> 00:55:54,231 [Arvid Kahl]: own script retroactively by just walking the path you want to walk and just 1232 00:55:54,411 --> 00:55:58,813 [Arvid Kahl]: taking opportunities as they present themselves and then they connect the dots retrospectively, 1233 00:55:58,853 --> 00:56:02,556 [Arvid Kahl]: which is... or retroactively, I guess. That's how it works anyway, right? 1234 00:56:02,576 --> 00:56:06,559 [Arvid Kahl]: Like most people describing their journey, and then you see this a lot in memoirs 1235 00:56:06,599 --> 00:56:09,922 [Arvid Kahl]: and stuff, like they find a lot of stuff that kind of connected, but it was 1236 00:56:09,982 --> 00:56:13,145 [Arvid Kahl]: not connected in the moment. It was never connected. Like the next thing, the 1237 00:56:13,165 --> 00:56:17,088 [Arvid Kahl]: next opportunity just happened, and they had this gut feeling that it was a 1238 00:56:17,128 --> 00:56:21,051 [Arvid Kahl]: good one to follow, and then they took it on, and it turned into something that 1239 00:56:21,091 --> 00:56:24,954 [Arvid Kahl]: connected super well with everything else. But that wasn't obvious at that moment. 1240 00:56:25,074 --> 00:56:29,622 [Arvid Kahl]: It became obvious later when the things all kind of fell into place. There's 1241 00:56:29,642 --> 00:56:35,447 [Arvid Kahl]: this nice, in sociology, I think this nice graph of the decision tree that you 1242 00:56:35,467 --> 00:56:39,931 [Arvid Kahl]: make in your life. And the decision tree that you made up till this point is just 1243 00:56:40,091 --> 00:56:44,995 [Arvid Kahl]: one path among many decisions that led you to where you are. And from now, 1244 00:56:45,035 --> 00:56:48,538 [Arvid Kahl]: there is an infinite amount of possible decisions that you can still make. 1245 00:56:48,818 --> 00:56:52,541 [Arvid Kahl]: But every year that you step forward into this decision tree, the path that you 1246 00:56:52,581 --> 00:56:57,405 [Arvid Kahl]: went and made decisions gets longer. But the path in front of you is still infinite. 1247 00:56:58,010 --> 00:57:01,972 [Arvid Kahl]: That's kind of what always motivates me to just look into opportunities as something 1248 00:57:01,992 --> 00:57:06,154 [Arvid Kahl]: that probably connects to whatever I did in the past. Just take the opportunity 1249 00:57:06,194 --> 00:57:09,736 [Arvid Kahl]: and see where it goes. And that is the journey of my life. That's my pathless 1250 00:57:09,777 --> 00:57:13,619 [Arvid Kahl]: path. Kind of. That's how I feel it. And I love that you talk about finding 1251 00:57:13,639 --> 00:57:17,401 [Arvid Kahl]: your peers and building community. That's the easiest way to find it, I feel. 1252 00:57:17,601 --> 00:57:20,623 [Arvid Kahl]: Like, because you see, not only do you see other people walk their own path, 1253 00:57:20,643 --> 00:57:23,985 [Arvid Kahl]: which is inspirational, but you also see the decision making that goes into 1254 00:57:24,065 --> 00:57:29,166 [Arvid Kahl]: it. How they weigh risk. how they defend their decisions against others, just 1255 00:57:29,186 --> 00:57:33,368 [Arvid Kahl]: like what we've been doing here, with describing how we defend our choice of 1256 00:57:33,428 --> 00:57:37,669 [Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneurship to our families, to our spouses, to our peers. That is something 1257 00:57:37,689 --> 00:57:42,010 [Arvid Kahl]: that just the fact that we did it might inspire somebody else to also do it 1258 00:57:42,050 --> 00:57:45,191 [Arvid Kahl]: and find their own path. And for that, you need to be in the community where 1259 00:57:45,211 --> 00:57:50,052 [Arvid Kahl]: you get exposed to conversations like ours. Right, if you're just in a community 1260 00:57:50,092 --> 00:57:53,593 [Arvid Kahl]: where people go the traditional ways and talk about how to build a career and 1261 00:57:53,633 --> 00:57:58,651 [Arvid Kahl]: how to write a CV, Well, you won't necessarily find inspiration to defend your 1262 00:57:58,691 --> 00:58:04,872 [Arvid Kahl]: own choices, right? So that is a big deal for me as well. Yeah, I think community 1263 00:58:04,912 --> 00:58:08,073 [Arvid Kahl]: is the biggest thing and community of different ways. I love the idea that you 1264 00:58:08,113 --> 00:58:11,775 [Arvid Kahl]: talk about both finding your own bubble and bursting your bubble at the same 1265 00:58:11,955 --> 00:58:14,915 [Arvid Kahl]: time. Right, you find your community of a founder bubble, that's great that everybody 1266 00:58:14,975 --> 00:58:18,236 [Arvid Kahl]: is encouraging and stuff, but you also wanna see people who live a completely 1267 00:58:18,357 --> 00:58:21,477 [Arvid Kahl]: wild life that is magically different from yours. 1268 00:58:22,176 --> 00:58:22,358 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1269 00:58:22,358 --> 00:58:25,283 [Arvid Kahl]: That's also something cool. So it's like build a bubble and burst it. What [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1270 00:58:25,283 --> 00:58:25,383 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1271 00:58:25,383 --> 00:58:26,825 [Arvid Kahl]: a great way to live your life. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1272 00:58:26,825 --> 00:58:28,543 [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. 1273 00:58:28,563 --> 00:58:29,826 [Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's a great place 1274 00:58:29,826 --> 00:58:29,964 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's a great place 1275 00:58:29,964 --> 00:58:29,984 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 1276 00:58:29,984 --> 00:58:30,325 [Tyler Tringas]: to leave it. [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 1277 00:58:30,325 --> 00:58:31,086 [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, 1278 00:58:31,106 --> 00:58:34,748 [Arvid Kahl]: I think so too. Well, I do want to give a shout out today because I feel we've 1279 00:58:34,768 --> 00:58:38,391 [Arvid Kahl]: been talking about Paul a lot and we've been talking about Dago Bear a lot 1280 00:58:38,471 --> 00:58:42,133 [Arvid Kahl]: like the two people that have been inspirational in for me and just thinking 1281 00:58:42,153 --> 00:58:45,575 [Arvid Kahl]: about this. So big shout out to Paul Millard with his amazing book The Pathless 1282 00:58:45,595 --> 00:58:49,897 [Arvid Kahl]: Path and a big shout out to Dago Bear Renouf who is on a podcast just like this 1283 00:58:50,017 --> 00:58:54,360 [Arvid Kahl]: one where he and James McKinven talk about their bootstrapper founder journey 1284 00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:57,421 [Arvid Kahl]: and I kind of want to give that a shout out like it's called This Indie Life. 1285 00:58:57,662 --> 00:59:02,305 [Arvid Kahl]: And it's a wonderful podcast now, I think at episode 20. And we're just behind, 1286 00:59:02,385 --> 00:59:06,148 [Arvid Kahl]: I think, by 10 episodes. Probably we will never catch up if they keep going and 1287 00:59:06,188 --> 00:59:09,730 [Arvid Kahl]: we keep going, we're always gonna be like 10 episodes apart. But that is a great 1288 00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:13,093 [Arvid Kahl]: show that I listen to on a weekly basis whenever it comes out, because it's just 1289 00:59:13,153 --> 00:59:17,256 [Arvid Kahl]: nice to follow the journey of people that motivate me. And that's a shout 1290 00:59:17,296 --> 00:59:19,937 [Arvid Kahl]: out that I wanted to give today. Do you have anything you wanna shout out? 1291 00:59:21,518 --> 00:59:22,211 [Tyler Tringas]: Yup, all good for me. 1292 00:59:23,562 --> 00:59:29,086 [Arvid Kahl]: Wonderful. Well, then let's draw this to a conclusion. My dog is just barking 1293 00:59:29,106 --> 00:59:32,069 [Arvid Kahl]: in the background. You've got to get the live experience here today. I've 1294 00:59:32,109 --> 00:59:36,873 [Arvid Kahl]: been setting up a way for people who listen to the show to give it a rating 1295 00:59:36,953 --> 00:59:40,676 [Arvid Kahl]: and a review. If you would like to do this, please go to ratethispodcast.com 1296 00:59:41,216 --> 00:59:48,522 [Arvid Kahl]: slash catch up. That's C-A-T-C-H-U-P, one word. And you can find links that automatically 1297 00:59:48,562 --> 00:59:52,205 [Arvid Kahl]: go to the Apple Podcasts place and Spotify and stuff, where you can give this 1298 00:59:52,225 --> 00:59:56,835 [Arvid Kahl]: show. much deserved five star rating. Please do that and give it a review 1299 00:59:56,875 --> 01:00:00,237 [Arvid Kahl]: if you like the show and if you like us. That would be really helpful. Put 1300 01:00:00,297 --> 01:00:03,598 [Arvid Kahl]: us in front of more people who might actually need to hear what we've been 1301 01:00:03,618 --> 01:00:06,720 [Arvid Kahl]: talking about today. And if you're a founder who's been through these things, 1302 01:00:06,740 --> 01:00:09,901 [Arvid Kahl]: you know that there are a lot of peers who also need to hear this. So please 1303 01:00:09,941 --> 01:00:14,423 [Arvid Kahl]: share this with them. You can also go to catchup.fm, find all the episodes, 1304 01:00:14,543 --> 01:00:19,385 [Arvid Kahl]: all the seven or so episodes we've been doing up until this point and link people. 1305 01:00:19,926 --> 01:00:24,494 [Arvid Kahl]: from there, it would be really appreciated. And yeah, I'm gonna talk to you 1306 01:00:24,535 --> 01:00:28,021 [Arvid Kahl]: again next week. And that's it for this week. 1307 01:00:28,810 --> 01:00:29,413 [Tyler Tringas]: See you next week.