[Arvid Kahl]: Welcome to Arvid and Tyler Catch Up. I'm Arvid.
[Tyler Tringas]: I'm Tyler. Let's catch up. What's up with you man?
[Arvid Kahl]: Oh, I've been thinking a lot about writing this week. So coming off of MicroConf,
[Arvid Kahl]: I've been kind of reading a lot. But on the trip, I brought one book, which
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know, [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,
[Arvid Kahl]: The Pathless Path,
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well. It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well. It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of
[Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really cool, and I've been reading
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really cool, and I've been reading
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the
[Arvid Kahl]: 25 copies in the whole world of Rob Walling's new book. The SAS playbook got
[Arvid Kahl]: that here, which is also really well done. Like, it's really for a self-published
[Arvid Kahl]: book. And those I find inspirational in particular. It's super high quality. The
[Arvid Kahl]: design is cool. The dust jacket is really nice. Well designed. I talked to
[Arvid Kahl]: Rob about this. And he spent quite some money on just getting it right, particularly
[Arvid Kahl]: compared to his first book, Start Small, Stay Small, which has the cover design
[Arvid Kahl]: skill level of, I think he admitted that like a a 10 year old because he has no
[Arvid Kahl]: idea what he was doing back then or had no
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh
[Arvid Kahl]: idea. [Tyler Tringas]: Uh
[Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Tyler Tringas]: huh. [Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Arvid Kahl]: And it looks like just somebody opened a Word document, printed out a page,
[Arvid Kahl]: and that's now the cover. But no, it's just it's a great book. It just looks
[Arvid Kahl]: like
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh. [Arvid Kahl]: like
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: it's self-published. This one does not. And I've been inspired to keep writing
[Arvid Kahl]: because as a writer myself, I just want to write cool stuff and seeing books.
[Arvid Kahl]: I'm going to thinking more about writing books. So I was talking to Brennan
[Arvid Kahl]: Dunn, who has a book coming out as well. And he's been sending out, you know,
[Arvid Kahl]: early advanced copies to his friends, which for some reason includes me. And I'm
[Arvid Kahl]: really happy about that. So I got to read his book and that was inspirational.
[Arvid Kahl]: So I chatted with Brennan about like how he got this publishing deal, which
[Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this book because
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this book because
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And I've been talking to a lot of people who've [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And I've been talking to a lot of people who've
[Arvid Kahl]: been self publishing in the past, but he found a publisher and I thought, well,
[Arvid Kahl]: My next one is going to be hopefully about building in public, something that, besides
[Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which is more SaaS focused, building
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay. [Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which is more SaaS focused, building
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: public is more audience, community building, and just live the life that you want
[Arvid Kahl]: to live and build your business and your brand at the same time kind of focused.
[Arvid Kahl]: So I've been thinking, do I need a publisher? Do I want a publisher? Do I want
[Arvid Kahl]: to keep self-publishing? That has worked well for me over the past. Or do
[Arvid Kahl]: I want to see if there is some other way of getting the message out there?
[Arvid Kahl]: because both what you and I have been doing and sharing our thoughts on this
[Arvid Kahl]: podcast and on on the internet and on Twitter and stuff that is building in
[Arvid Kahl]: public and it has been working pretty well for both of us. So maybe we should
[Arvid Kahl]: I thought we should get this kind of story and by we I mean myself out further
[Arvid Kahl]: right into the bigger world that is not just indie hackers and not just creators
[Arvid Kahl]: but somebody else and for that a publisher would be cool. but maybe it is
[Arvid Kahl]: just for indie hackers and creators or they would benefit the most from this. So
[Arvid Kahl]: I should kind of keep it in this community. I've been thinking a lot about this.
[Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think
[Tyler Tringas]: in. [Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think
[Arvid Kahl]: I have answers. I talked to a couple of people, Brandon introduced me to
[Arvid Kahl]: people who work in the publishing industry and, you know, deal with agents and
[Arvid Kahl]: getting book proposals out. And I talked to one guy who's been doing book proposals
[Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals. And he kind of tried to steer me away. from
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals. And he kind of tried to steer me away. from
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way
[Arvid Kahl]: of getting the book out there between self-publishing and regular old traditional
[Arvid Kahl]: publishing, there seem to be ways to do hybrid publishing where essentially you
[Arvid Kahl]: pay people to be your editors instead of having the publisher pay them, right?
[Arvid Kahl]: Publishers are kind of VC in a way, they try to get, like, make bets on books
[Arvid Kahl]: and pay for everything and then you get an advance and maybe you get royalties
[Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially bootstrapping without any
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially bootstrapping without any
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of funding. And then there's in between, funny enough, like there is a comfund
[Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm. [Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right?
[Arvid Kahl]: There's the kind of this, okay, yeah, we take you on, we give you like some
[Arvid Kahl]: access to this kind of network and we help you through, it costs you pretty
[Arvid Kahl]: little apparently. I haven't really looked
[Tyler Tringas]: What's
[Arvid Kahl]: into this [Tyler Tringas]: What's
[Arvid Kahl]: into this
[Tyler Tringas]: it called? [Arvid Kahl]: into this
[Tyler Tringas]: it called?
[Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact [Tyler Tringas]: it called?
[Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact
[Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is, like they don't
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is, like they don't
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: pay [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: pay
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: pay
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: you money, [Tyler Tringas]: yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: you money,
[Tyler Tringas]: I get [Arvid Kahl]: you money,
[Tyler Tringas]: I get
[Arvid Kahl]: you [Tyler Tringas]: I get
[Arvid Kahl]: you
[Tyler Tringas]: it.
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service provider, but the idea is that they have the [Tyler Tringas]: it.
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service provider, but the idea is that they have the
[Arvid Kahl]: logistics. and a distribution to get your book into, I don't know what traditional
[Arvid Kahl]: publishers would do, get you into airports, get you into bookstores, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm
[Arvid Kahl]: What is always extremely hard for people like me because my books are print
[Arvid Kahl]: on demand. So I'm
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody
[Arvid Kahl]: who puts them in there. So all of this is currently happening as I'm speaking
[Arvid Kahl]: about it. I'm still trying to figure out where I'm going. Honestly, I just
[Arvid Kahl]: wanna write. I don't even wanna deal with this kind of stuff because... as
[Arvid Kahl]: it's kind of like a software developer, you don't want to do marketing as a writer,
[Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind of operational stuff either, right? Somebody
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind of operational stuff either, right? Somebody
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a
[Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different hats. And
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different hats. And
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal amount of slightly different hats. [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal amount of slightly different hats.
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm
[Arvid Kahl]: And that's been that's been my week essentially trying to figure out where
[Arvid Kahl]: I want to go with this still undecided. If you have any opinions on this, as somebody
[Arvid Kahl]: who almost published a book.
[Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry.
[Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS [Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry.
[Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS
[Arvid Kahl]: stuff as well. If you have any opinions on this, please, please share.
[Tyler Tringas]: Well, I was curious, actually, as you were talking about this, whether build
[Tyler Tringas]: in public might be the exact worst topic to pitch to a book publisher, because
[Tyler Tringas]: it's kind of, it's kind of literally talking about the strategy to avoid
[Tyler Tringas]: having to work with a book publisher
[Arvid Kahl]: I guess.
[Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean, I know that's not exactly the intent of it, [Arvid Kahl]: I guess.
[Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean, I know that's not exactly the intent of it,
[Tyler Tringas]: but I could imagine being on the side of a book publisher and basically
[Tyler Tringas]: reading this as like. You want to write a book about how to not have to work
[Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want me to publish it?
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want me to publish it?
[Tyler Tringas]: This might
[Arvid Kahl]: that's [Tyler Tringas]: This might
[Arvid Kahl]: that's
[Tyler Tringas]: not
[Arvid Kahl]: right. [Tyler Tringas]: not
[Arvid Kahl]: right.
[Tyler Tringas]: be the one to be your test case for for working with a publisher. I don't
[Tyler Tringas]: know. What do you think about that?
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public has this effect, right? Like you're kind
[Tyler Tringas]: Right. [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public has this effect, right? Like you're kind
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey and you, everything, and you have to be honest [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey and you, everything, and you have to be honest
[Arvid Kahl]: too, which in an industry that is about like ranking high on lists like the
[Arvid Kahl]: New York Times bestseller list or whatever industry publication you can be
[Arvid Kahl]: in, there's a lot of glorification of hero figures, like writers that the whole
[Arvid Kahl]: Stephen King on Twitter situation like has been blown up in all the periodicals.
[Arvid Kahl]: So
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: as a, I'm kind of, I'm a, want to be a sci-fi writer, so I'm subscribed to
[Arvid Kahl]: Locust magazine, which is kind of the industry publication for all kinds of
[Arvid Kahl]: sci-fi, who sells which book to watch publisher and kind of stuff. It's interesting
[Arvid Kahl]: to read, but I don't write much in that regard. I just, you know, get the information
[Arvid Kahl]: in and
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship in those magazines too, because there are names [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship in those magazines too, because there are names
[Arvid Kahl]: that you know, like Brandon Sanderson, big fantasy writer, and when he does something
[Arvid Kahl]: cool he gets a full page article, right? It's very focused on the celebrities,
[Arvid Kahl]: which is not something I necessarily want. And I guess I told that person that as
[Arvid Kahl]: well, like who was trying to figure out if I should be working with a big publisher.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I told him, I don't want to deal with all this kind of hero stuff or this
[Arvid Kahl]: going on TV for like, you know, recommending your book on a morning TV show
[Arvid Kahl]: because it's supposed to help everybody in every audience possible. There
[Arvid Kahl]: is a disconnect because building in public is a niche thing. Like you wanna
[Arvid Kahl]: be in your community sharing your story with the people who matter and you don't
[Arvid Kahl]: wanna be on national TV in the morning in one of these morning shows, talking
[Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at the TV at that time. Right, there's
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at the TV at that time. Right, there's
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: also [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: also
[Tyler Tringas]: I'm [Arvid Kahl]: also
[Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there.
[Tyler Tringas]: gonna [Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there.
[Tyler Tringas]: gonna
[Arvid Kahl]: And [Tyler Tringas]: gonna
[Arvid Kahl]: And
[Tyler Tringas]: go to bed. [Arvid Kahl]: And
[Tyler Tringas]: go to bed.
[Arvid Kahl]: I've seen people like Ryan Holiday on national TV stuff is like, I don't want
[Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James
[Tyler Tringas]: Why [Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James
[Tyler Tringas]: Why
[Arvid Kahl]: Clear,
[Tyler Tringas]: not? [Arvid Kahl]: Clear,
[Arvid Kahl]: right? But, but first off, I don't want to get up early in the morning. That's
[Arvid Kahl]: one of the biggest problems. But I honestly like James Clear is an example.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I talked to the guy who writes these book proposals about this. If you go
[Arvid Kahl]: to like a PTA meeting with you have kids in school and you go like to the
[Arvid Kahl]: other. with the other parents, you go to a PTA meeting and you ask people
[Arvid Kahl]: who wants to build in public. Like nobody is going to, nobody even wants
[Arvid Kahl]: to be an entrepreneur or very few people in that community want to be an
[Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneur. But if you ask them who wants to lose weight and like half of them
[Arvid Kahl]: raised their hands and you said, well, I have the perfect habit forming book
[Arvid Kahl]: for you. This is Atomic Habits by James Clear. Right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they need. They need the James Clear stuff, the [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they need. They need the James Clear stuff, the
[Arvid Kahl]: highly generic things that are somewhat ish applicable to every single situation.
[Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same
[Tyler Tringas]: I don't [Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same
[Tyler Tringas]: I don't
[Arvid Kahl]: way.
[Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be [Arvid Kahl]: way.
[Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be
[Arvid Kahl]: That's [Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might be
[Arvid Kahl]: That's
[Tyler Tringas]: selling [Arvid Kahl]: That's
[Tyler Tringas]: selling
[Arvid Kahl]: what they [Tyler Tringas]: selling
[Arvid Kahl]: what they
[Tyler Tringas]: yourself [Arvid Kahl]: what they
[Tyler Tringas]: yourself
[Arvid Kahl]: say though. [Tyler Tringas]: yourself
[Arvid Kahl]: say though.
[Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I think if you asked people, you know, who wants [Arvid Kahl]: say though.
[Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I think if you asked people, you know, who wants
[Tyler Tringas]: to find a way to build that project that you've been thinking about and
[Tyler Tringas]: haven't found a way to get started on, if you framed it slightly different,
[Tyler Tringas]: like, hey, I have a method that you create public accountability and then
[Tyler Tringas]: you are able to get started without anyone's permission, I think that would
[Tyler Tringas]: resonate with a lot of people. businesses necessarily, but it might be, you
[Tyler Tringas]: know, organizational groups they've been meaning to start or a pickleball
[Tyler Tringas]: league in the neighborhood they've been meaning to start, right? Like,
[Tyler Tringas]: I mean, I don't know, like, you might be selling yourself short here. It
[Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit
[Arvid Kahl]: Thanks. [Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit
[Arvid Kahl]: Thanks.
[Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're thinking. [Arvid Kahl]: Thanks.
[Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're thinking.
[Arvid Kahl]: Well, thanks so much for being constructive in your feedback.
[Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha!
[Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that I always really like that has a strong built-in [Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha!
[Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that I always really like that has a strong built-in
[Arvid Kahl]: public vibe has been Show Your Work by Austin Kleon.
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator in the public space. And he found a publisher [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator in the public space. And he found a publisher
[Arvid Kahl]: with a book
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: with a book
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do
[Arvid Kahl]: the whole. What in the software world is like we're striped for cats or something.
[Arvid Kahl]: I should say like, I'm show your work for, for businesses or something.
[Tyler Tringas]: There you
[Arvid Kahl]: I need [Tyler Tringas]: There you
[Arvid Kahl]: I need
[Tyler Tringas]: go. [Arvid Kahl]: I need
[Tyler Tringas]: go.
[Arvid Kahl]: to go [Tyler Tringas]: go.
[Arvid Kahl]: to go
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: to go
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: and [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: and
[Tyler Tringas]: Well, [Arvid Kahl]: and
[Tyler Tringas]: Well,
[Arvid Kahl]: just [Tyler Tringas]: Well,
[Tyler Tringas]: I
[Arvid Kahl]: position [Tyler Tringas]: I
[Arvid Kahl]: position
[Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know, [Arvid Kahl]: position
[Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know,
[Arvid Kahl]: myself [Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know,
[Arvid Kahl]: myself
[Tyler Tringas]: you should [Arvid Kahl]: myself
[Tyler Tringas]: you should
[Arvid Kahl]: better. [Tyler Tringas]: you should
[Arvid Kahl]: better.
[Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks [Arvid Kahl]: better.
[Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks
[Tyler Tringas]: ago, and literally talking about this exact topic with Paul Miller. And
[Tyler Tringas]: he was talking about, you know, trying to decide whether or not to work with
[Tyler Tringas]: a publisher for his book. And he was bringing up some Some kind of cons to
[Tyler Tringas]: it that I hadn't thought about in the sense of, uh, you know, them having
[Tyler Tringas]: like control over derivative works and stuff like that. So anyway, you should
[Tyler Tringas]: have him on your, uh, on your main podcast and you guys should just talk
[Tyler Tringas]: about it. I
[Arvid Kahl]: a great
[Tyler Tringas]: think that's [Arvid Kahl]: a great
[Tyler Tringas]: think that's
[Arvid Kahl]: idea. [Tyler Tringas]: think that's
[Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer. [Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer.
[Arvid Kahl]: Let me do this right after we wrap. I'm just gonna,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure. [Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send him this episode. Let's
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: is
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: is
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful. But I've been admiring his work and his approach [Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful. But I've been admiring his work and his approach
[Arvid Kahl]: to particularly like his I don't need the big launch kind of thing. I'm just
[Arvid Kahl]: gonna sell this book like when it becomes popular, kind of like that as well.
[Arvid Kahl]: So yeah, thanks. That's really helpful. I'm, you know what, it's a lot of
[Arvid Kahl]: imposter syndrome in this for me as well, because all of a sudden you play
[Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you don't really know
[Tyler Tringas]: Word. [Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you don't really know
[Tyler Tringas]: Word.
[Arvid Kahl]: right with all these these extremely successful other people but then again why
[Arvid Kahl]: just as well man thanks so much how has your week been what have you been doing
[Tyler Tringas]: My week has been pretty bad.
[Arvid Kahl]: Aw.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mainly I've just been really, really sick. I don't often get like really
[Tyler Tringas]: sick for more than a day or two. And I've been sick for two straight weeks
[Tyler Tringas]: on top of like, you know, a bunch of other stuff, which we discussed last
[Tyler Tringas]: week. So it's been it's been a challenging week in terms of really just
[Tyler Tringas]: not being able to get a lot done. Here I'm still kind of like coming out
[Tyler Tringas]: of it. Got on like a bunch of antibiotics and stuff a couple of days ago.
[Tyler Tringas]: So I'm feeling much better now. And this is like starting to be productive
[Tyler Tringas]: again. But, you know, it's just like really challenging couple of weeks.
[Tyler Tringas]: And like I just had to kind of continuously remind myself that when you
[Tyler Tringas]: find yourself in this position, especially as like a founder, where you have
[Tyler Tringas]: a lot of. leverage as a founder and when you are productive, that's like 10
[Tyler Tringas]: or 20 times more effective in like a day than a day where you like pound
[Tyler Tringas]: a bunch of coffee and cold medicine and kind of force yourself to answer
[Tyler Tringas]: some emails. And so like you feel a bunch of guilt about it, because you'll
[Tyler Tringas]: feel a bunch of things piling up that need your attention. And like right
[Tyler Tringas]: now I'm feeling that I've had a lot of stuff that was fairly urgent that
[Tyler Tringas]: needed my attention that I was just like I think I just need to like log
[Tyler Tringas]: off for a couple of days and, and try to, to get better because it's just
[Tyler Tringas]: not worth it to, to try and slog through a little bit of stuff if it, if
[Tyler Tringas]: it drags out an illness. So that's kind of like a hard one lesson. I've
[Tyler Tringas]: done the opposite of that several times where, you know, you just end up like
[Tyler Tringas]: kind of ruining several weeks at a time. But yeah, looking forward to being
[Tyler Tringas]: back at a hundred percent pretty soon. The other thing that's been going on
[Tyler Tringas]: is just the response from, you know, last week, I kind of rolled out the
[Tyler Tringas]: announcement about reducing the team size, having to lay a few people off
[Tyler Tringas]: at CompFund and really narrowing our focus to, you know, the core job, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: canceling a couple side projects, that kind of stuff. And honestly, the response
[Tyler Tringas]: has been just like tremendous. I can't even respond to all of the emails and
[Tyler Tringas]: DMs that have just been like 100 percent. you know, supportive and encouraging
[Tyler Tringas]: and understanding. Super awesome to, to feel that I, you know, if, if any of
[Tyler Tringas]: those folks are listening to this, I really, really appreciate it made a
[Tyler Tringas]: huge difference. Um, during a pretty tough, a couple of weeks for me personally.
[Tyler Tringas]: And it just reminded me that like, you almost can't lose as an entrepreneur
[Tyler Tringas]: in a lot of ways, you know, like you just get so much credit from everyone
[Tyler Tringas]: just for trying that even when you try something and it's sort of. objectively
[Tyler Tringas]: doesn't work out, right? You know, you might say it failed, right? You just
[Tyler Tringas]: get so much credit from everyone for trying. Everybody is still so stoked that
[Tyler Tringas]: you gave it a good shot and there's almost no real penalty from most people
[Tyler Tringas]: that you care about their opinion for not succeeding in a particular part of
[Tyler Tringas]: the venture. And everybody is just ready for you to kind of like. get
[Tyler Tringas]: back on the horse and try again. So that's been really, really nice, especially
[Tyler Tringas]: the last couple of weeks to just this, I mean, it's like hundreds of emails
[Tyler Tringas]: and DMs coming in after the public announcement that, yeah, it was just
[Tyler Tringas]: super supportive. So I'm really grateful for that.
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm so happy to hear it. I'm not surprised that our amazing community
[Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: when,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: when,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for
[Arvid Kahl]: you to be in this physical state of despair, cause you're
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks. You have this, you see the world differently, [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks. You have this, you see the world differently,
[Arvid Kahl]: but then still have this glowing lights of support and motivation come in and
[Arvid Kahl]: understanding probably most of all, so that's wonderful. It's one of those
[Arvid Kahl]: things. That's kind of why I want to do more about building in public as well.
[Arvid Kahl]: This is such a clear example
[Tyler Tringas]: Totally.
[Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending the journey of the business. It doesn't, you [Tyler Tringas]: Totally.
[Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending the journey of the business. It doesn't, you
[Arvid Kahl]: being you and you learning and you growing and you sharing this, it could
[Arvid Kahl]: have been great what happened to Com. It could have been, it was kind of
[Arvid Kahl]: bad what happened to Com, but either way, there's something that strengthens
[Arvid Kahl]: the bond between the people that are around you and you through whatever comes,
[Arvid Kahl]: which is such a cool phenomenon. That's something that... If you hadn't shared
[Arvid Kahl]: your journey, you would just be alone and sad and people would get mad at you.
[Arvid Kahl]: But now you've built this goodwill and people actually also want you to succeed.
[Arvid Kahl]: And no matter what happens, they're there for you. That's such a wonderful thing.
[Arvid Kahl]: I'm really happy to hear this.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think you're totally right that like, you know, this is an exemplar,
[Tyler Tringas]: an example of the value of building in public, right? Because the decisions
[Tyler Tringas]: that we made were sort of laid out along the way, people knew the bets we
[Tyler Tringas]: were taking, the risks we were taking, the upside of the decision, why we
[Tyler Tringas]: made these decisions, you know, and that was kind of laid out and publicly
[Tyler Tringas]: documented and then kind of landing on, well, here are the outcomes of
[Tyler Tringas]: those and here are the decisions we need to make. I think You just get a lot
[Tyler Tringas]: more goodwill and just kind of trust from folks. Whereas if they just see
[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the, the outside effects without the kind of behind the scenes
[Tyler Tringas]: explanations, I think people, you know, some portion of people will, will
[Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for that
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for that
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind of [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind of
[Arvid Kahl]: That's
[Tyler Tringas]: like [Arvid Kahl]: That's
[Tyler Tringas]: like
[Arvid Kahl]: right.
[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And [Arvid Kahl]: right.
[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And
[Tyler Tringas]: I really don't think. I haven't found anybody. I was certainly worried a little
[Tyler Tringas]: bit that there might be some backlash. We have a lot of investors and stuff
[Tyler Tringas]: like that that might say like, oh, this sucks. You're not doing as well as
[Tyler Tringas]: I thought you would or something like that. And there was just none of that,
[Tyler Tringas]: absolutely none. So it was actually fantastic.
[Arvid Kahl]: It's kind of hard to get mad at somebody who's been honest with you the whole
[Arvid Kahl]: time.
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: Right? [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: Right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: Right?
[Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get
[Arvid Kahl]: you get mad at yourself for maybe having inflated expectations if there's nothing
[Arvid Kahl]: that you can cling on onto. That's really cool. Yeah, but wonderful. You just
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for my book. So thank you so much,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for my book. So thank you so much,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this as an example, because lots of people have [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this as an example, because lots of people have
[Arvid Kahl]: been asking around building in public, well, where are the negative examples?
[Arvid Kahl]: Where is where something went wrong? And how did that affect people? I think
[Arvid Kahl]: this is as positive as can be for such a negative example, right? Stuff didn't
[Arvid Kahl]: work, you still got something out of it. That's that's exactly what I love
[Arvid Kahl]: about that story. Even though I wish it would have happened differently for
[Arvid Kahl]: so many reasons. But the way it happened, the way you communicated has been
[Arvid Kahl]: stellar. And I'm very happy to see that. Yeah, people don't they did not have
[Arvid Kahl]: an avenue of complaining, which is great. You come, you covered your bases.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's what you
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: That's what you
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a positive and I guess empowering way for others [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a positive and I guess empowering way for others
[Arvid Kahl]: to learn from. That's really cool. Well, I'm glad we live in a community where
[Arvid Kahl]: everybody understands each other,
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows where we are going with the thing that we're [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows where we are going with the thing that we're
[Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand
[Arvid Kahl]: that there's risk in entrepreneurship and that they also understand that this risk
[Arvid Kahl]: is worth failing from time to time.
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm
[Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference. Because if you had people who don't understand [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm
[Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference. Because if you had people who don't understand
[Arvid Kahl]: this, they probably would have responded differently to your announcement,
[Arvid Kahl]: right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely. [Arvid Kahl]: right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely.
[Arvid Kahl]: Well, maybe we should use this opportunity to dive into the topic of today,
[Arvid Kahl]: which is
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it. [Arvid Kahl]: which is
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it.
[Arvid Kahl]: very much, [Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it.
[Arvid Kahl]: very much,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: very much related to this. I've been, uh, at MicroConf, I was talking about
[Arvid Kahl]: fundamental health, right? The problems that we all commonly share, being
[Arvid Kahl]: overworked, doing a lot of things. And one, one thing that I shared a pretty sad
[Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was social isolation, feeling alone, feeling
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was social isolation, feeling alone, feeling
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not supported at all. And I f- Ever since then, [Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not supported at all. And I f- Ever since then,
[Arvid Kahl]: people have been reaching out to me, both right there at the venue after
[Arvid Kahl]: I gave my talk and over the next couple days, plus now in Twitter DMs, sharing
[Arvid Kahl]: stories about how hard it was for them to stay the course, like to calmly
[Arvid Kahl]: build a business, trying to stay calm when around the people around them were
[Arvid Kahl]: just energetically trying to distract them or pull them away from entrepreneurship
[Arvid Kahl]: because they just didn't get it. Like this week I had an interview, I just released
[Arvid Kahl]: it earlier today, with Dagobert Renouf, the co-founder of Logology. He and
[Arvid Kahl]: his wife founded a logo creation software as a service business.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that he's been talking about on Twitter has been [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that he's been talking about on Twitter has been
[Arvid Kahl]: that his father-in-law has been completely unsupportive and not understanding
[Arvid Kahl]: about why he and his wife would ever build a business together when they both
[Arvid Kahl]: could just have regular careers. that she's a designer, he's a software engineer,
[Arvid Kahl]: like they could work for corporate and they would be fine for life. That's his
[Arvid Kahl]: perspective,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: perspective,
[Arvid Kahl]: has been his perspective for a while until he saw that it's kind of working
[Arvid Kahl]: out. But he shared this on my podcast and I was like, yeah, this is something
[Arvid Kahl]: that probably every founder can relate to because I personally have a very
[Arvid Kahl]: similar story in my life, early life, even like not necessarily with Feat.
[Arvid Kahl]: Panda, the stuff that actually worked out, but much earlier, like in 2013,
[Arvid Kahl]: 2012. when I kind of, I was still in university, I was studying political science,
[Arvid Kahl]: but I always wanted to be an engineer, I always wanted to code, I was coding on the
[Arvid Kahl]: side. And
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: I got this invite to San Francisco for, like there was a C-funded company that
[Arvid Kahl]: found my GitHub and they wanted me to kind of see if I could work for them
[Arvid Kahl]: as a remote employee from Germany, but they wanted to meet me, so they flew me
[Arvid Kahl]: in or wanted to fly me in from San Francisco. Even just that was something
[Arvid Kahl]: that my grandma at the time, who had kind of the maternal role in my family,
[Arvid Kahl]: She didn't understand and didn't support. Like she was like, no, you shouldn't
[Arvid Kahl]: do this. This is dangerous. This is kind of risky. I think this feels like something
[Arvid Kahl]: that, you know, that's kind of, that must be a scam. They invite you over,
[Arvid Kahl]: that's not right. I think that's like, why would anybody pay for a ticket and
[Arvid Kahl]: you don't even know who they are? And she just did not even understand this kind
[Arvid Kahl]: of founders taking a bet on a potential employee.
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there, I had a great time. We came to an agreement. [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there, I had a great time. We came to an agreement.
[Arvid Kahl]: I worked for them for two years, and then it got burned out and everything exploded
[Arvid Kahl]: in my life. But that's a different story for a different opportunity. But
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building tiny software businesses with my friends and [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building tiny software businesses with my friends and
[Arvid Kahl]: peers. And again, she was like, I don't know if this is the way you should
[Arvid Kahl]: be going. Like you could, you're good at your job. You could just find a job
[Arvid Kahl]: with like some software business. Right? You could go to Audi or another big
[Arvid Kahl]: German company and work in a software department, right? And I was like, no, but
[Arvid Kahl]: I want to do this. And I then, then I did this and these things failed. And
[Arvid Kahl]: she was like, yep, told you you should go and get a job. And I just, I kind
[Arvid Kahl]: of listened to her. I started getting into consulting with a bigger business
[Arvid Kahl]: and consulted for them as my big fish main client. But over time, I just wanted
[Arvid Kahl]: to build more businesses.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were
[Arvid Kahl]: like building Feedback Panda and showing her that this was now, um, like a $20,000
[Arvid Kahl]: a month business. for her to say, well, okay, I guess it's fine. That was the
[Arvid Kahl]: situation. We built a SaaS business to 20K MRR and that was okay, I guess this
[Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years to get her to this point. Super frustrating. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years to get her to this point. Super frustrating.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I think everybody who's been going into solopreneurship or just entrepreneurship
[Arvid Kahl]: in general has a story like this. I wonder if you have a story like this too.
[Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think
[Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family, [Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think
[Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family,
[Tyler Tringas]: so. [Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family,
[Tyler Tringas]: so.
[Arvid Kahl]: right? It could [Tyler Tringas]: so.
[Arvid Kahl]: right? It could
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, [Arvid Kahl]: right? It could
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: be anybody. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: be anybody.
[Tyler Tringas]: so I grew up in a family where entrepreneurship was a little more normalized.
[Tyler Tringas]: My, you know, my stepdad was sort of my head of household for most of my
[Tyler Tringas]: life, and he ran a guitar shop, you know. So I think the the concept of being
[Tyler Tringas]: an entrepreneur was a little more normalized within the family. So there
[Tyler Tringas]: wasn't that kind of constant pressure to be like, why don't you get a job
[Tyler Tringas]: sort of thing. But I would say,
[Tyler Tringas]: the elements that kind of resonate with me in this are a little different, which
[Tyler Tringas]: are, first of all, just like not necessarily, not having active pushback,
[Tyler Tringas]: but not really having a support network, right? Like not having people within
[Tyler Tringas]: my community. So. When I like my college friends and my, you know, first
[Tyler Tringas]: friends from after college and stuff like that, like almost none of them
[Tyler Tringas]: were entrepreneurs. So I didn't really have people that would push me in the
[Tyler Tringas]: right direction or that I could sort of lean on in tough times necessarily.
[Tyler Tringas]: So it was sort of isolated versus having, you know, kind of things pushing
[Tyler Tringas]: back against me. Um, and then, you know, definitely like just in general.
[Tyler Tringas]: Feeling like. uh, in most social situations that I didn't really have anything
[Tyler Tringas]: to empathize with people, right? Like you're at, uh, you know, you're dating
[Tyler Tringas]: someone who has a normal job and you go out with them and their friends
[Tyler Tringas]: and everybody's complaining about, uh, you know, not having enough time
[Tyler Tringas]: off or, you know, like weird stuff that's like no longer relevant feature
[Tyler Tringas]: of your life at all, and you have nothing to say
[Arvid Kahl]: Right.
[Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know, this, that sort of isolation, I think is something [Arvid Kahl]: Right.
[Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know, this, that sort of isolation, I think is something
[Tyler Tringas]: that I felt a lot, um, pretty early on as an entrepreneur. And so. Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: I think we should talk about it. I don't know if I have a specific example
[Tyler Tringas]: that comes to mind. It was just like a very pervasive thing for quite
[Tyler Tringas]: a few years for me.
[Arvid Kahl]: Oh,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific enough, particularly the thing with like going [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific enough, particularly the thing with like going
[Arvid Kahl]: out or going to any kind of social event and being just of a completely different
[Arvid Kahl]: frame of mind, what even warrants being discussed.
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's what I feel like when I was at a family thing a couple days ago and
[Arvid Kahl]: it was really nice and when family hangs out, it's always enjoyable. But even
[Arvid Kahl]: getting to a topic of discussion that I find interesting. in terms of like,
[Arvid Kahl]: you know, I want to talk about AI, or I want to talk about like entrepreneurship,
[Arvid Kahl]: I want to talk about like building something cool or cool projects. But people
[Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things as interesting as I do, which kind
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure. [Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things as interesting as I do, which kind
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting to a point where I can contribute meaningfully [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting to a point where I can contribute meaningfully
[Arvid Kahl]: to a conversation. Because the other topics, I'm not that much into sports,
[Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much
[Tyler Tringas]: Thank [Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much
[Tyler Tringas]: Thank
[Arvid Kahl]: into, [Tyler Tringas]: Thank
[Arvid Kahl]: into,
[Tyler Tringas]: you. [Arvid Kahl]: into,
[Tyler Tringas]: you.
[Arvid Kahl]: you know, vacations or whatnot, these these topics that normal people normally
[Arvid Kahl]: talk about,
[Tyler Tringas]: I think [Arvid Kahl]: talk about,
[Tyler Tringas]: I think
[Arvid Kahl]: right? [Tyler Tringas]: I think
[Arvid Kahl]: right?
[Tyler Tringas]: these [Arvid Kahl]: right?
[Tyler Tringas]: these
[Arvid Kahl]: It's [Tyler Tringas]: these
[Arvid Kahl]: It's
[Tyler Tringas]: are [Arvid Kahl]: It's
[Tyler Tringas]: are
[Arvid Kahl]: just [Tyler Tringas]: are
[Arvid Kahl]: just
[Tyler Tringas]: more [Arvid Kahl]: just
[Tyler Tringas]: more
[Arvid Kahl]: that [Tyler Tringas]: more
[Arvid Kahl]: that
[Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify [Arvid Kahl]: that
[Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify
[Arvid Kahl]: But wait, [Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify
[Arvid Kahl]: But wait,
[Tyler Tringas]: by the [Arvid Kahl]: But wait,
[Tyler Tringas]: by the
[Arvid Kahl]: what's,
[Tyler Tringas]: way. [Arvid Kahl]: what's,
[Tyler Tringas]: way.
[Arvid Kahl]: isn't that the same? Like, isn't like one, like there's a big Venn diagram and
[Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like right dab in the middle of,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy [Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like right dab in the middle of,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy
[Arvid Kahl]: of the [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy
[Arvid Kahl]: of the
[Tyler Tringas]: on
[Arvid Kahl]: nerd [Tyler Tringas]: on
[Arvid Kahl]: nerd
[Tyler Tringas]: your [Arvid Kahl]: nerd
[Tyler Tringas]: your
[Arvid Kahl]: thing. [Tyler Tringas]: your
[Tyler Tringas]: very challenging socially.
[Arvid Kahl]: Well, I honestly, I mean, I'm great. I'm great among family and we always
[Arvid Kahl]: have nice chats. And even this time we did get to talk about chat chipperity
[Arvid Kahl]: because a couple of people in the family work in marketing and we had this
[Arvid Kahl]: whole conversation about, funny enough, we actually had a conversation that
[Arvid Kahl]: went, that went into entrepreneurship because we kind of talked about them with their
[Arvid Kahl]: career path and me, like how I source my finances, right? Where I find my
[Arvid Kahl]: sponsors. Then we got into like how sponsorship evolved over time. people working
[Arvid Kahl]: in an ad agency, obviously they're interested to see how it works on the ground
[Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I
[Tyler Tringas]: Mmm. [Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I
[Tyler Tringas]: Mmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: source my sponsors, how they could potentially connect with more people like me.
[Arvid Kahl]: And it was an interesting conversation just about the different perspectives that
[Arvid Kahl]: you have from an agency perspective on how to place advertisement and sponsorships
[Arvid Kahl]: and what I care about as a creator and what I would never do, what is normal to
[Arvid Kahl]: them. Like it was a nice conversation in the overlap of our fields. That was cool.
[Arvid Kahl]: But that rarely happens. And it's just a few people that work in jobs that are
[Arvid Kahl]: even adjacent to what I'm doing, because most people have normal jobs, like
[Arvid Kahl]: plumber or nurse. What am I going to say? Build in public your next plumbing
[Arvid Kahl]: project? It's going to be far cry for me to even get to a conversational
[Arvid Kahl]: topic there. So those situations, always enjoyable, but never really a part where
[Arvid Kahl]: I feel I can contribute a lot. And that puts some distance in there, I feel.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's just what it is. We chose this occupation and with it comes an interest
[Arvid Kahl]: for certain things and a dismissal of others. It's just what it is. But I feel
[Arvid Kahl]: it does show, at least for me, where our priorities lie and what we completely
[Arvid Kahl]: ignore as entrepreneurs. What you said, these conversations about, oh, my
[Arvid Kahl]: boss, or I wish there was more paid vacation. What is an entrepreneur going
[Arvid Kahl]: to say? I wish
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm.
[Arvid Kahl]: there [Tyler Tringas]: Mm.
[Arvid Kahl]: there
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm. [Arvid Kahl]: there
[Arvid Kahl]: was any vacation at all, ever. It feels like it's just a different different
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of perspective to take on conversations. But maybe that is the happy
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of result of us being somewhat isolated. But I feel there's a lot of mental
[Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still
[Arvid Kahl]: perform and to still to still maintain these bonds, particularly when it
[Arvid Kahl]: comes to good friends or family or your significant other. Like the amounts
[Arvid Kahl]: of times I've been listening to a Star Trek podcast. Let me just like throw
[Arvid Kahl]: it all out there, because like if we're nerding out my just as well. It's
[Arvid Kahl]: called The Greatest Generation, and it has two male co-hosts that worked in
[Arvid Kahl]: the entertainment industry. They're coming from videography or directing and kind
[Arvid Kahl]: of stuff. And they now go through the old Star Trek The Next Generation episodes,
[Arvid Kahl]: like one by one, and just comment them in a funny way. I highly recommend listening
[Arvid Kahl]: to it. But what they always talk about is how their wives are just kind of embarrassed
[Arvid Kahl]: about them running a Star Trek podcast. And you know, like whenever they're
[Arvid Kahl]: out in public and now some of they have a lot of listeners, listeners come
[Arvid Kahl]: up to them and want like an autograph or a photo, they're kind of embarrassed about
[Arvid Kahl]: that. And I was like, this is so sad. I guess it's so unfortunate that somebody's
[Arvid Kahl]: joy that also makes them money because they have a podcast with like, now
[Arvid Kahl]: I guess hundreds of thousands of monthly listeners and yet still their partners
[Arvid Kahl]: in life feel disconnected enough to not even care about it much or embarrassed
[Arvid Kahl]: that. this person that they share their life with is doing this as a profession.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I should say, like their partners are, I think one of them is a lawyer and the
[Arvid Kahl]: other one also has a pretty high paid job. So there's this kind of discrepancy,
[Arvid Kahl]: high paid lawyer, start with nerd on a podcast, right? This seems to be a problem
[Arvid Kahl]: for people. And I was like, why? This is so sad, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I'm not a couples counselor, but that that that seems like a
[Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha
[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship. [Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha
[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship.
[Arvid Kahl]: Yep. Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner relationship.
[Tyler Tringas]: Did you feel like you had to defend entrepreneurship, you know, to to your
[Tyler Tringas]: family or or friends or anything like that? Did you ever find yourself sort
[Tyler Tringas]: of needing to? You know, I mean, you can sort of just like either shrug
[Tyler Tringas]: it off, but sometimes you might feel the need to engage and sort of make the
[Tyler Tringas]: case for it. Did you find that?
[Arvid Kahl]: again, mostly with my grandma, because she was just she was in such a protective
[Arvid Kahl]: role that anything that had more risk than gainful employment, like risk from
[Arvid Kahl]: a perspective of somebody who's been in gainful employment all through her
[Arvid Kahl]: life, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: life, right?
[Arvid Kahl]: That's the kind of default frame that she had on this, anything that was more
[Arvid Kahl]: risky. And we can argue that entrepreneurship is risky in a different way, you know, unlimited
[Arvid Kahl]: upside, unlimited downside compared to limited upside and limited downside for
[Arvid Kahl]: employment and If you only have one employer, you have kind of platform risk,
[Arvid Kahl]: platform
[Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but
[Tyler Tringas]: I would think
[Arvid Kahl]: you know. [Tyler Tringas]: I would think
[Arvid Kahl]: you know.
[Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited downside side of things. But yes, I think
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited downside side of things. But yes, I think
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: it's [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: exactly.
[Tyler Tringas]: limited downside too. But yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's right. There's a common narrative, right? And that's kind of what I
[Arvid Kahl]: was trying to describe with the upside-down side thing.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart in the reality that we live in. Because if
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck
[Arvid Kahl]: life can be sustained if you don't get a paycheck, right? And it's not your fault
[Arvid Kahl]: necessarily as an employee that this is the reality in which we live in. But
[Arvid Kahl]: to think that this is safe is probably a misconception. So I had to argue
[Arvid Kahl]: these kinds of things to her, which is like talk to like an 86 year old woman
[Arvid Kahl]: about your perspective as a 20 year old while she has been living in multiple
[Arvid Kahl]: different countries. Like we came from East Germany, doesn't exist anymore than
[Arvid Kahl]: had to be in Germany and she had a career there. So she's been through stuff
[Arvid Kahl]: and her perspective is what I know is good and what I can teach this person
[Arvid Kahl]: and what I can help them accomplish is also good. So can't blame it, but I did
[Arvid Kahl]: have to defend it. And one other thing, one other probably more relatable thing
[Arvid Kahl]: for most, like I had to defend my entrepreneurial aspirations to my peers
[Arvid Kahl]: at the last job that I was working in. So
[Tyler Tringas]: Thank
[Arvid Kahl]: when [Tyler Tringas]: Thank
[Arvid Kahl]: when
[Tyler Tringas]: you. [Arvid Kahl]: when
[Tyler Tringas]: you.
[Arvid Kahl]: I was building Feedback Panda, I kind of did it on the side while I was having
[Arvid Kahl]: a full salaried 40 hour a week software engineering position in Hamburg. Like
[Arvid Kahl]: there's this whole story that I often tell is like. me commuting from Berlin
[Arvid Kahl]: to Hamburg allowed me to listen to all these podcasts and read all these books,
[Arvid Kahl]: including your ebook and that kind of stuff to figure out how I wanted to
[Arvid Kahl]: build my next business. All this commute back and forth gave me so much time.
[Arvid Kahl]: So when I was in Hamburg working 40 hours a week and then took some time, like
[Arvid Kahl]: after working, I still stayed in the office and coded on my own project.
[Arvid Kahl]: People just didn't really get it. They were like, why are you doing this?
[Arvid Kahl]: You already have a job. The hardest part about all this was when I then quit because
[Arvid Kahl]: our business already went somewhere and I wanted to focus on something else. They
[Arvid Kahl]: felt almost betrayed. Like it had this kind of notion of hey you were one
[Arvid Kahl]: of us and now you're kind of not anymore.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be like a negative thing or this must be some [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be like a negative thing or this must be some
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of attack. It was pretty strange because these were people that I really
[Arvid Kahl]: went well with until I told them that I didn't want to be an employee anymore.
[Tyler Tringas]: it.
[Arvid Kahl]: Like I had mental health reasons there as well. I felt like overwhelmed and
[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't want to do this. And you know, my grandma had just died around that
[Arvid Kahl]: time. So there was that as well. There was just so much animosity that I was
[Arvid Kahl]: exposed to, which was really unfortunate because I didn't expect it from people who
[Arvid Kahl]: were just like me. It turns out they were not necessarily like me. They were
[Arvid Kahl]: just compatible on one level, but very incompatible on another. So yes, I
[Arvid Kahl]: did have to defend it. And I honestly, I just defended it by doing it. and not caring
[Arvid Kahl]: about what other people said.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think I would encourage other folks and I wonder if this resonates
[Tyler Tringas]: with you, but I think you just have to drop the idea of defending it. I just
[Tyler Tringas]: think like, you know, it's one of those things where people are going
[Tyler Tringas]: to get it or not and, you know, all the energy that you would put into trying
[Tyler Tringas]: to convince that person in your life. Um, that it's, you know, a good
[Tyler Tringas]: idea. You should just put into yourself and basically, you know, recognizing
[Tyler Tringas]: that like, you're just, you're probably not going to convince them and you
[Tyler Tringas]: just need to kind of reconcile that and, and, you know, Just go for it. Right.
[Tyler Tringas]: Like, I just don't think that a lot of upside, I think this is maybe potentially
[Tyler Tringas]: challenging when it's specifically a partner slash like spouse. That's probably
[Tyler Tringas]: like the one area where you really do need to. get some buy in, I think
[Tyler Tringas]: with your family, like unless, I don't know, unless they're financing your
[Tyler Tringas]: lifestyle or something like that, you probably just have to accept the
[Tyler Tringas]: fact that they're not going to get it until you're successful, and then
[Tyler Tringas]: they're going to get it. And like, that's that, like that's how it's going
[Tyler Tringas]: to play out. That's how almost everyone that I know that's gone through that
[Tyler Tringas]: sort of situation, like, they don't get it, they don't get it. And then as
[Tyler Tringas]: soon as you're like, tangibly succeeding, they get it right away. They're
[Tyler Tringas]: like, Oh, that's cool. Great. You know, and like, there's really no shortcut
[Tyler Tringas]: to that process. Um, I wonder actually if it's a bit more challenging with,
[Tyler Tringas]: uh, with a partner. I've never really had to go through that process at the
[Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um,
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um,
[Tyler Tringas]: I guess did, did you, so, so, you know, I only had a serious partner in my
[Tyler Tringas]: life after, you know, I was single when I started, you know, when I quit
[Tyler Tringas]: my job and started to become an entrepreneur and my business was fairly
[Tyler Tringas]: successful. before I had a serious life partner along that journey. So
[Tyler Tringas]: what about you? Did you have a partner at the early days of this stuff?
[Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing
[Arvid Kahl]: So [Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing
[Arvid Kahl]: So
[Tyler Tringas]: you had to do? [Arvid Kahl]: So
[Tyler Tringas]: you had to do?
[Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner
[Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that I'm recording
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm. [Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that I'm recording
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015. [Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015.
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017 together. So I was still a fully set and salaried [Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017 together. So I was still a fully set and salaried
[Arvid Kahl]: engineer at the time, even like working half remotely. So I was in Hamburg
[Arvid Kahl]: commuting back and forth for like half of my week. So it was a... a relationship
[Arvid Kahl]: that itself was already pretty tested from the early days on right, you're
[Arvid Kahl]: your partner and some sometimes there's sometimes you're you're gone, you're
[Arvid Kahl]: gonna have a long distance relationship several days a week. So we had a lot of stuff
[Arvid Kahl]: compressed into a very early timeframe there. And then we started the business together
[Arvid Kahl]: in 17. We sold it in 2019. And we moved to Canada two years later in 2021.
[Arvid Kahl]: So that that's kind of the story of our life together. So yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was
[Tyler Tringas]: Right. [Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together. So she was
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she actually also wanted to build it. [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she actually also wanted to build it.
[Tyler Tringas]: Right, maybe this would be something fun to discuss on Twitter after we
[Tyler Tringas]: publish this to
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could share some stories of having to really get [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could share some stories of having to really get
[Tyler Tringas]: buy-in maybe from a you know default skeptical Partner or spouse and and
[Tyler Tringas]: kind of hear about that because I think that would be really interesting to
[Tyler Tringas]: hear how folks Navigated that that's kind of like one version where you can't
[Tyler Tringas]: just be like well You'll see you know and then just go three years without
[Tyler Tringas]: getting support
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah. [Tyler Tringas]: getting support
[Tyler Tringas]: buy-in from it I wonder if this resonates with you as well. It's kind
[Tyler Tringas]: of like a variation of this, which is feeling behind your peers on more
[Tyler Tringas]: of a traditional path, right? So you're an entrepreneur, maybe you haven't
[Tyler Tringas]: quite gotten the financial success yet, and a small version might be you
[Tyler Tringas]: see some article in... MSN money or whatever that's like, here's how much
[Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the time your ex
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the time your ex
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa, I don't have anywhere near that much saved [Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa, I don't have anywhere near that much saved
[Tyler Tringas]: because I've been building equity in this business that's not successful
[Tyler Tringas]: yet. And maybe then more like tangible milestones, right? Maybe people are
[Tyler Tringas]: buying houses or maybe they're having kids and all this kind of stuff that
[Tyler Tringas]: you feel like you can't necessarily financially do because you're still in the
[Tyler Tringas]: trenches of entrepreneurship. Did you feel any of that at all?
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm thinking about it. I had friends certainly that had kids and had
[Arvid Kahl]: jobs and that kind of stuff. But I always knew that I don't need to compare
[Arvid Kahl]: myself to people whose lives I don't necessarily want to live. And this is
[Arvid Kahl]: no a hidden dig at my friends, obviously, because they're my friends. But
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: the choices that they made were theirs to make and not necessarily mine. So
[Arvid Kahl]: I don't think I compared my lifestyle with with them much. But I always felt that
[Arvid Kahl]: the security that some people had financially by just having been around
[Arvid Kahl]: and having already understood that's, that's an important part too, I'm going
[Arvid Kahl]: to get to this in a second, how to invest, what to invest, like have their
[Arvid Kahl]: employer pay half of whatever contribution they may have and build equity
[Arvid Kahl]: in, in the market or in money markets or whatever over, over their, um, their
[Arvid Kahl]: work lifetime. That was something that I was even just kind of exposed to
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm
[Arvid Kahl]: late in life. I didn't even have a frame of reference to be kind of jealous
[Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah [Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because
[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't even know that that was an option. Again, my grandma, she's great,
[Arvid Kahl]: but she had very strong opinions about what investment looks like or what savings
[Arvid Kahl]: look like. For her, that was like put money in a savings account every now and
[Arvid Kahl]: then and that's it. Get like the rates that whatever the bank pays you. Because
[Arvid Kahl]: again, East Germany, different story, her whole life was structured in a certain
[Arvid Kahl]: way and she kind of taught that. I had to do a lot of unlearning as you can
[Arvid Kahl]: probably tell.
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've been kind of educated with as I grew up in [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've been kind of educated with as I grew up in
[Arvid Kahl]: that space. And she was burned, I think, by the local credit union style bank,
[Arvid Kahl]: investing their money into really, really bad mutual funds that never made any
[Arvid Kahl]: money. So they kind of lost a lot of money on this. So any investment into
[Arvid Kahl]: anything in the market was a no go for her. That was how it was financially
[Arvid Kahl]: educated.
[Tyler Tringas]: Whoa.
[Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right? So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first [Tyler Tringas]: Whoa.
[Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right? So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first
[Arvid Kahl]: in that business in Hamburg was exposed to a fellow developer who talked about
[Arvid Kahl]: investing in the stock market and ETFs and that kind of stuff and how this
[Arvid Kahl]: is actually a much saner approach than buying into heavily into mutual funds
[Arvid Kahl]: or that kind of stuff that your bank tries to push on you. Any sane person
[Arvid Kahl]: looking at this from the outside was like, why are they trying to sell me this?
[Arvid Kahl]: Like, obviously there's more in that for them than for me. So That education
[Arvid Kahl]: came at a super late part in my life. And ever since then, I've been working
[Arvid Kahl]: on getting to that. But it's not because of comparison with my peers, it's because
[Arvid Kahl]: of not being educated in that space at all. Honestly, I think the first book
[Arvid Kahl]: that I ever read that explained this to me more clearly was Tony Robbins, like
[Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's not necessarily the best book about finances,
[Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get [Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's not necessarily the best book about finances,
[Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get
[Arvid Kahl]: but
[Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know? [Arvid Kahl]: but
[Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know?
[Arvid Kahl]: it showed me a path beyond. like just putting some money in some bank account
[Arvid Kahl]: and getting like minus 3% a year because the economy tech. So it's, but for
[Arvid Kahl]: me, I did feel behind in just the sense of security that I had in my life,
[Arvid Kahl]: which was one of the reasons why we actually sold the business when we sold
[Arvid Kahl]: it, because
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. [Arvid Kahl]: it, because
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity we had in this business at that point making [Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity we had in this business at that point making
[Arvid Kahl]: 600K in ARR, so it was substantial already. It was technically by all just...
[Arvid Kahl]: guesses of how much something could be worth a million dollar business, which
[Arvid Kahl]: it then turned out to be in the end when we sold it. But we we both had nothing
[Arvid Kahl]: else. Like we had no savings really, other than the weird stuff in our bank, which
[Arvid Kahl]: was like a couple thousand bucks. We had a paycheck to paycheck kind of life
[Arvid Kahl]: because we were living in Berlin, the middle of a big city, which is expensive
[Arvid Kahl]: and I
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: and I
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling back and forth, even though the company helped [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling back and forth, even though the company helped
[Arvid Kahl]: me with this, it was never free, right? And... we understood that, wow, this
[Arvid Kahl]: is the only thing that's valuable and it's gigantically valuable in comparison
[Arvid Kahl]: to what else we have. If we lose this business because of, you know, the business
[Arvid Kahl]: implodes because of the market or some regulation, which funny enough it did
[Arvid Kahl]: like a couple months ago, right? China introduced some weird regulation that
[Arvid Kahl]: makes it impossible for a person to teach English online anymore without living
[Arvid Kahl]: in China itself. So Feedback Panda, the business that we built, It doesn't exist
[Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like,
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay. [Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like,
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it down because there was nobody paying money [Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it down because there was nobody paying money
[Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't do the work that we
[Tyler Tringas]: All [Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't do the work that we
[Tyler Tringas]: All
[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate [Tyler Tringas]: All
[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate
[Tyler Tringas]: right. [Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate
[Arvid Kahl]: that it happened, and I'm kind of glad it didn't happen to us. It happened
[Arvid Kahl]: to a company that could handle such a financial loss, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: Like, if that would have been us, everything we built over years would have [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point. [Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.
[Arvid Kahl]: which is why I was super stressed about it, had like the kind of, oh, the bus
[Arvid Kahl]: factor is incredibly high and it's so undiversified, we need to diversify
[Arvid Kahl]: our investments. Again, something I had never known about before, but now I knew
[Arvid Kahl]: and now I understood because I had people who work smart about investments
[Arvid Kahl]: tell me about this as well. So that's the thing that I felt I would need to
[Arvid Kahl]: catch up, just securing my own life by diversifying my investments. Hence
[Arvid Kahl]: we sold the business. and got invested into fine funds such as the calm company
[Arvid Kahl]: fund, for example, right? Like
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this for me, like investing in your fund was one [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this for me, like investing in your fund was one
[Arvid Kahl]: of the things I did to diversify. So
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: yeah, you know, so yes, I did feel behind and I needed to catch up.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, yeah, I think I felt some of that too. I think some things that
[Tyler Tringas]: resonated for me Over the years that kind of helped me maintain a little more
[Tyler Tringas]: kind of calm about that because it is easy to sort of feel behind So the first
[Tyler Tringas]: one that resonated for me was leaning into some of the stuff that you can
[Tyler Tringas]: do as an entrepreneur that you couldn't do with a job, right so like I
[Tyler Tringas]: think it can be really tough to be just like in exactly the same sort of
[Tyler Tringas]: position as your peers, let's say your peers from college or something like
[Tyler Tringas]: that. Like you're living in the same cities, in the same neighborhoods,
[Tyler Tringas]: trying to buy the same houses, trying to do the same activities, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: all this kind of stuff, except you're the like struggling entrepreneur and
[Tyler Tringas]: they're the like successful corporate person. That sounds like setting
[Tyler Tringas]: yourself up for like a really difficult time mentally. So I think like one
[Tyler Tringas]: thing that comes to mind is this overlap between a lot of entrepreneurs
[Tyler Tringas]: becoming digital nomads. And I'm not saying like every entrepreneur should
[Tyler Tringas]: become digital nomads, but you know, you have this like kind of sort of
[Tyler Tringas]: judo way of turning around some of the negatives into a positive. Like,
[Tyler Tringas]: yes, you have to work a lot. And yes, you maybe don't have as much disposable
[Tyler Tringas]: income, you know, month over month, if you kind of graph it. But you do
[Tyler Tringas]: have a lot more flexibility in terms of where you are. Right. And so you
[Tyler Tringas]: can sort of lean into, well, I can go live in Bali for six months. And that's
[Tyler Tringas]: pretty cool. You know, and so there's like a, um, there's an upside to
[Tyler Tringas]: being an entrepreneur as well. And so I think kind of looking for, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: those opportunities to, um, you know, to take advantage of some of the
[Tyler Tringas]: things that are unlocked by being an entrepreneur, mainly the ability to
[Tyler Tringas]: travel, the ability to work remotely, the ability to. frankly, you can
[Tyler Tringas]: take more time off, right? You know, if you're able to do that, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to some level where that's possible, and sometimes
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm. [Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to some level where that's possible, and sometimes
[Tyler Tringas]: that's a lot sooner than you think, you know, the capacity to take six straight
[Tyler Tringas]: weeks off, which is basically impossible for, you know, anybody in a corporate
[Tyler Tringas]: job. So I think I definitely leaned into that heavily, and that helped me
[Tyler Tringas]: a lot. with the early days of challenging, it was like, okay, I'm pretty
[Tyler Tringas]: much broke. I have like no money, you know, like very minimal amount coming
[Tyler Tringas]: in, very way behind on where I should be on savings, but I get to travel
[Tyler Tringas]: the world. I went to like 40 countries. I lived out of a backpack. I did
[Tyler Tringas]: all this cool stuff, you know. So it was like, even if I kind of finish this
[Tyler Tringas]: and none of these businesses work, I actually still won't regret this period
[Tyler Tringas]: of time. Like I'll have less money than my peers, but I will have so many
[Tyler Tringas]: incredible experiences that Like it'll feel like a pretty good investment.
[Tyler Tringas]: I think overall so that was like one that was pretty useful I'm gonna say
[Tyler Tringas]: I think Another thing that's kind of nice and I'm curious if this kind of
[Tyler Tringas]: resonates for you as well, but I have found that Entrepreneurship really
[Tyler Tringas]: helps me avoid the hedonic treadmill and the life inflation aspect Right?
[Tyler Tringas]: So like, you know, your income and your savings are these numerical numbers,
[Tyler Tringas]: but they are also relative to how much you spend. Right. And so the sort
[Tyler Tringas]: of lumpiness of the cash flows of entrepreneurship, the fact that they're
[Tyler Tringas]: not that reliable, but when they do come, they come in like generally like
[Tyler Tringas]: very large chunks has kind of helped me avoid the the constant, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: okay, you get this raise and then you raise your spending by exactly the
[Tyler Tringas]: same amount. And so you get this point where you're really on this treadmill
[Tyler Tringas]: that's turned up to 11 and you have to continue making this very high
[Tyler Tringas]: salary just to sort of stay in place because your cost basis is so high.
[Tyler Tringas]: I think one nice thing that entrepreneurship does is it forces you to keep
[Tyler Tringas]: that level low. And there's a benefit to that, which is that you have so
[Tyler Tringas]: much more flexibility in your life. Whether or not it's other entrepreneurial
[Tyler Tringas]: ventures or other things like that, I think a source of a lot of unhappiness
[Tyler Tringas]: in middle age for a lot of folks is this hedonic treadmill where, yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: they've had nice steady success and now their base level of existence is they
[Tyler Tringas]: need to make $500,000, $600,000 a year just to stay in place. That means they
[Tyler Tringas]: can absolutely never take a year off and go and try to write a book or
[Tyler Tringas]: try to. do some experiment or start a company or whatever. And so, I wanna
[Tyler Tringas]: encourage folks to appreciate that upside that even though it feels kind
[Tyler Tringas]: of limiting in the moment that you wish you had a little more disposable income,
[Tyler Tringas]: that dynamic is actually going to be a source of, I think pretty substantial
[Tyler Tringas]: happiness at like a decade long time scale. And so, just kind of focusing
[Tyler Tringas]: on that I think is valuable.
[Arvid Kahl]: I really appreciate that because I feel the same way. I honestly like most people
[Arvid Kahl]: when I talked to them about the sale, the exit of the business, they asked
[Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right? There's always this this big
[Tyler Tringas]: No. [Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right? There's always this this big
[Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like, I got a MacBook Pro, I think
[Tyler Tringas]: Yes. [Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like, I got a MacBook Pro, I think
[Tyler Tringas]: Yes.
[Arvid Kahl]: I got a new computer so I could write better or I could write in one room and
[Arvid Kahl]: watch videos in the other. That was like my leveling up at that point. And
[Arvid Kahl]: it has felt like this ever since because I think you're on to something here
[Arvid Kahl]: with the lack of reliable numbers that you see growing every month. I just did
[Arvid Kahl]: my taxes. So it was tax season here in Canada, like until I think the 30th
[Arvid Kahl]: of April is that last tax day. And obviously that meant I did my taxes on
[Arvid Kahl]: the 30th of April.
[Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the data from the business together and something [Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD.
[Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the data from the business together and something
[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this was a six-figure business. I did not notice.
[Tyler Tringas]: See you. [Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this was a six-figure business. I did not notice.
[Arvid Kahl]: I was not aware of the fact that all my media business is now actually. six
[Arvid Kahl]: figure business and I saw this on the text sheet because with that number
[Arvid Kahl]: comes an equally high tax payment that you have to pay and Expenses were manageable
[Arvid Kahl]: all that kind of stuff it was very interesting to see but the lump thing
[Arvid Kahl]: that the fact that it's distributed over so many ways and I think every month I
[Arvid Kahl]: have like 30 different items on my just where money comes in because Amazon
[Arvid Kahl]: has like 12 different locations where the payments for the books come in and
[Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me through some weird methods somewhere else and [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me through some weird methods somewhere else and
[Arvid Kahl]: then some goes to PayPal and Gumroad is here and Podia was there and there's Udemy
[Arvid Kahl]: and there's Skillshare. All these different things just pay random things at
[Arvid Kahl]: random times so you don't really see this big monthly up and down. You just
[Arvid Kahl]: really see this trickle in and some random capacity. So you develop this.
[Arvid Kahl]: I can only spend this much this month because you know, haven't seen much money
[Arvid Kahl]: for a couple months. Let's just see. Let's just be smart about it. So it surprised
[Arvid Kahl]: me to see how much money actually came in. but also how much I kept because,
[Arvid Kahl]: you know, if I don't see it come in, I don't see it, I don't spend it, which
[Arvid Kahl]: is great. And I think this is a consequence of having had this behavior where
[Arvid Kahl]: no money was coming in in the past. It just sounds like the worst humble
[Arvid Kahl]: bag in history, but the idea is I think I've always had this, let's just be
[Arvid Kahl]: frugal about this. I mean, now I'm buying a lot of studio equipment. I think
[Arvid Kahl]: my biggest expenses are microphones, monitors, and cameras at this point to be able
[Arvid Kahl]: to do what I do. I don't spend money on cars. I don't even own a car. Like
[Arvid Kahl]: we have one family car and it's not mine. I like walking to the store and that's
[Arvid Kahl]: my life, right? It's just, there is no kind of keeping up with the Joneses kind
[Arvid Kahl]: of creep in my life because I don't like that. And I never was a person to
[Arvid Kahl]: do this, frankly, because I never had enough money to start. That's kind of how
[Arvid Kahl]: I feel. I never had enough income to even start keeping up with other people.
[Arvid Kahl]: And now that I have, I don't need that. I invested in my business again, which
[Arvid Kahl]: is... and our lives here too, like in this fine province of Ontario, we just
[Arvid Kahl]: building our little life here and having a nice house and having time with
[Arvid Kahl]: family and friends, that's what we spend our money on, not necessarily fancy
[Arvid Kahl]: things. So yeah, sorry, that's just derailed into a description of my financial
[Arvid Kahl]: life. But honestly, I think this is something that is a consequence of me never
[Arvid Kahl]: really. following the salaried employee narrative. And I think you brought
[Arvid Kahl]: this up just now with, you know, when should you do what, right? The narrative
[Arvid Kahl]: that we all are part of an economy and everybody should contribute and be compensated
[Arvid Kahl]: for it for 45 years and then you retire. That kind of narrative. Or you have
[Arvid Kahl]: to find a job, you have to then immediately buy a house and be in a place and
[Arvid Kahl]: you can never be a nomad, right? Because you have to start a family and have
[Arvid Kahl]: to pay like for a car, get a loan here, get a loan for that, the standard narrative
[Arvid Kahl]: that most people follow. And I think you, you, by mentioning just digital
[Arvid Kahl]: nomadism, that just completely breaks the paradigm. And that is a wonderful
[Arvid Kahl]: idea for an entrepreneur is to start breaking narrative paradigms. Right?
[Arvid Kahl]: about what a business should look like. Should you get VC funding? Yeah, sure,
[Arvid Kahl]: every business needs funding, right? No, that is not necessarily true. Or
[Arvid Kahl]: should you build it in secret and then sell it to whoever wants it? Well,
[Arvid Kahl]: maybe that's also not a narrative that's true. Maybe you can do this in a more
[Arvid Kahl]: public sphere. I think what this boils down to me for is breaking the paradigms
[Arvid Kahl]: of narrative that are established in the society around us. And unfortunately,
[Arvid Kahl]: often enough, this narrative is parroted by our parents, by our spouses, by
[Arvid Kahl]: our friends, and by our colleagues. I kind of to bring this all together. Like
[Arvid Kahl]: the fact that we have such trouble with them understanding what we're doing is
[Arvid Kahl]: that they are living the narrative of somebody else and they are repeating the
[Arvid Kahl]: narrative that somebody else has instilled in them. Our schools, our social
[Arvid Kahl]: systems, our economic theory that whatever country is following at any given
[Arvid Kahl]: time, all of this kind of trickles down into narratives that we hopefully can
[Arvid Kahl]: break. So I don't know why I'm here now at this point. My train of thought
[Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted and I exited
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's [Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted and I exited
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's
[Arvid Kahl]: at the [Tyler Tringas]: Let's
[Arvid Kahl]: at the
[Tyler Tringas]: bring
[Arvid Kahl]: station. [Tyler Tringas]: bring
[Arvid Kahl]: station.
[Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you you made a great point there, which is and [Arvid Kahl]: station.
[Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you you made a great point there, which is and
[Tyler Tringas]: I wanted to sort of talk a little bit about, okay, what, what do we think
[Tyler Tringas]: you know, maybe other folks who are feeling a lot of these feelings that
[Tyler Tringas]: we've been describing could do and
[Arvid Kahl]: Yes.
[Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched on the number one thing which is not. It's [Arvid Kahl]: Yes.
[Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched on the number one thing which is not. It's
[Tyler Tringas]: like kind of straightforward and simple and a lot of folks have unpacked
[Tyler Tringas]: in a bunch of different ways, but just kind of like assessing the. You know,
[Tyler Tringas]: the script or the playbook or the narrative that you sort of have this
[Tyler Tringas]: perception that you're supposed to be on and really just questioning that,
[Tyler Tringas]: right? I mean, a lot of entrepreneurship is questioning other narratives about, you
[Tyler Tringas]: know, the world, right? You know, okay, this market is saturated. Nobody
[Tyler Tringas]: else could enter it. Is that really true? You know, like a lot of the opportunities
[Tyler Tringas]: come from that. And sometimes we forget to apply that same kind of critical
[Tyler Tringas]: lens to. our own lives, right? To the narratives that we tell ourselves that
[Tyler Tringas]: other people try to impose on us to say like, well, you should be doing
[Tyler Tringas]: X, Y, and Z. And, and you can sort of take that same entrepreneurs kind of
[Tyler Tringas]: skeptical, critical thinking analysis to it and say like, wait, is that
[Tyler Tringas]: true? And what do you often find is like, no, you don't have to do that
[Tyler Tringas]: at all. Like, you can actually do whatever you want in your life. And what's
[Tyler Tringas]: been really helpful for me personally has been to connect with not just
[Tyler Tringas]: so we're going to I was going to suggest, you know, connecting with other
[Tyler Tringas]: entrepreneurs, I think that's kind of the no brainer, which is try to find
[Tyler Tringas]: your community. And we can talk a little about that. But but also just
[Tyler Tringas]: connecting with other people who are living lives that are just very different.
[Tyler Tringas]: I got this primarily just from traveling a ton. But there's certainly other
[Tyler Tringas]: ways you could probably do this. But but getting a firsthand experience
[Tyler Tringas]: of other people who are living dramatically sort of off script lifestyles
[Tyler Tringas]: and this could be maybe through podcasts or whatever but just sort of hearing
[Tyler Tringas]: other people Describe a non-traditional approach to their lives. I think helps you
[Tyler Tringas]: like widen the aperture of What's allowed what's possible, you know and
[Tyler Tringas]: and I think really reinforcing that to say like yeah A bunch of people think
[Tyler Tringas]: I'm off script here But like, that's okay. And a lot of people live their
[Tyler Tringas]: lives that way, and it's fine, you know? You don't have to do any of those
[Tyler Tringas]: narratives. So I think that's like kind of step one, is just like this base
[Tyler Tringas]: level understanding that, you know, you can just kind of do whatever you
[Tyler Tringas]: want. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: that's also what Paul is writing about in like
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right? [Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah. [Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: Let's bring that book into the mix here as well. The path that you choose
[Arvid Kahl]: can just also be one of wandering around intentionally, right? It doesn't need
[Arvid Kahl]: to be somebody else's script you follow. It could be just you be writing your
[Arvid Kahl]: own script retroactively by just walking the path you want to walk and just
[Arvid Kahl]: taking opportunities as they present themselves and then they connect the dots retrospectively,
[Arvid Kahl]: which is... or retroactively, I guess. That's how it works anyway, right?
[Arvid Kahl]: Like most people describing their journey, and then you see this a lot in memoirs
[Arvid Kahl]: and stuff, like they find a lot of stuff that kind of connected, but it was
[Arvid Kahl]: not connected in the moment. It was never connected. Like the next thing, the
[Arvid Kahl]: next opportunity just happened, and they had this gut feeling that it was a
[Arvid Kahl]: good one to follow, and then they took it on, and it turned into something that
[Arvid Kahl]: connected super well with everything else. But that wasn't obvious at that moment.
[Arvid Kahl]: It became obvious later when the things all kind of fell into place. There's
[Arvid Kahl]: this nice, in sociology, I think this nice graph of the decision tree that you
[Arvid Kahl]: make in your life. And the decision tree that you made up till this point is just
[Arvid Kahl]: one path among many decisions that led you to where you are. And from now,
[Arvid Kahl]: there is an infinite amount of possible decisions that you can still make.
[Arvid Kahl]: But every year that you step forward into this decision tree, the path that you
[Arvid Kahl]: went and made decisions gets longer. But the path in front of you is still infinite.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's kind of what always motivates me to just look into opportunities as something
[Arvid Kahl]: that probably connects to whatever I did in the past. Just take the opportunity
[Arvid Kahl]: and see where it goes. And that is the journey of my life. That's my pathless
[Arvid Kahl]: path. Kind of. That's how I feel it. And I love that you talk about finding
[Arvid Kahl]: your peers and building community. That's the easiest way to find it, I feel.
[Arvid Kahl]: Like, because you see, not only do you see other people walk their own path,
[Arvid Kahl]: which is inspirational, but you also see the decision making that goes into
[Arvid Kahl]: it. How they weigh risk. how they defend their decisions against others, just
[Arvid Kahl]: like what we've been doing here, with describing how we defend our choice of
[Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneurship to our families, to our spouses, to our peers. That is something
[Arvid Kahl]: that just the fact that we did it might inspire somebody else to also do it
[Arvid Kahl]: and find their own path. And for that, you need to be in the community where
[Arvid Kahl]: you get exposed to conversations like ours. Right, if you're just in a community
[Arvid Kahl]: where people go the traditional ways and talk about how to build a career and
[Arvid Kahl]: how to write a CV, Well, you won't necessarily find inspiration to defend your
[Arvid Kahl]: own choices, right? So that is a big deal for me as well. Yeah, I think community
[Arvid Kahl]: is the biggest thing and community of different ways. I love the idea that you
[Arvid Kahl]: talk about both finding your own bubble and bursting your bubble at the same
[Arvid Kahl]: time. Right, you find your community of a founder bubble, that's great that everybody
[Arvid Kahl]: is encouraging and stuff, but you also wanna see people who live a completely
[Arvid Kahl]: wild life that is magically different from yours.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's also something cool. So it's like build a bubble and burst it. What [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: a great way to live your life. [Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's a great place
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, [Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's a great place
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: to leave it. [Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: I think so too. Well, I do want to give a shout out today because I feel we've
[Arvid Kahl]: been talking about Paul a lot and we've been talking about Dago Bear a lot
[Arvid Kahl]: like the two people that have been inspirational in for me and just thinking
[Arvid Kahl]: about this. So big shout out to Paul Millard with his amazing book The Pathless
[Arvid Kahl]: Path and a big shout out to Dago Bear Renouf who is on a podcast just like this
[Arvid Kahl]: one where he and James McKinven talk about their bootstrapper founder journey
[Arvid Kahl]: and I kind of want to give that a shout out like it's called This Indie Life.
[Arvid Kahl]: And it's a wonderful podcast now, I think at episode 20. And we're just behind,
[Arvid Kahl]: I think, by 10 episodes. Probably we will never catch up if they keep going and
[Arvid Kahl]: we keep going, we're always gonna be like 10 episodes apart. But that is a great
[Arvid Kahl]: show that I listen to on a weekly basis whenever it comes out, because it's just
[Arvid Kahl]: nice to follow the journey of people that motivate me. And that's a shout
[Arvid Kahl]: out that I wanted to give today. Do you have anything you wanna shout out?
[Tyler Tringas]: Yup, all good for me.
[Arvid Kahl]: Wonderful. Well, then let's draw this to a conclusion. My dog is just barking
[Arvid Kahl]: in the background. You've got to get the live experience here today. I've
[Arvid Kahl]: been setting up a way for people who listen to the show to give it a rating
[Arvid Kahl]: and a review. If you would like to do this, please go to ratethispodcast.com
[Arvid Kahl]: slash catch up. That's C-A-T-C-H-U-P, one word. And you can find links that automatically
[Arvid Kahl]: go to the Apple Podcasts place and Spotify and stuff, where you can give this
[Arvid Kahl]: show. much deserved five star rating. Please do that and give it a review
[Arvid Kahl]: if you like the show and if you like us. That would be really helpful. Put
[Arvid Kahl]: us in front of more people who might actually need to hear what we've been
[Arvid Kahl]: talking about today. And if you're a founder who's been through these things,
[Arvid Kahl]: you know that there are a lot of peers who also need to hear this. So please
[Arvid Kahl]: share this with them. You can also go to catchup.fm, find all the episodes,
[Arvid Kahl]: all the seven or so episodes we've been doing up until this point and link people.
[Arvid Kahl]: from there, it would be really appreciated. And yeah, I'm gonna talk to you
[Arvid Kahl]: again next week. And that's it for this week.
[Tyler Tringas]: See you next week.