Sam Acho: Welcome to the Sam Acho Podcast, where we go first,
we grow hope, we give space.
We talk about faith, family, football, and finances, and we do that with
people from all around the world.
And today we have a very, very special guest and cliff, as he usually does,
would love for you to introduce our guest.
Clif Marshall: Sam, we have a legend on the show today.
Mack Brown, who's been a head college football coach at Texas, North Carolina.
Is with us.
He most recently coached at the University of North Carolina during the 2024 season.
Coach Brown is known for leading the Tar Heels to their all
time record number of wins.
Coach Brown is perhaps more well known for his tenure in Austin, Texas.
Where he coached the Texas Longhorns from 1998 until 2013, winning a
national championship in 2005.
What makes this show so special today is that Coach Brown recruited and coached
Sam Ocho, our host Sam, went on to be an All-American defensive end in 2010
for the Longhorns, and then was an NFL draft pick to the Arizona Cardinals.
So we have a reunion of sorts today on the show.
We're so glad that you're here.
Mack Brown: Thank you, cliff.
You also didn't add that he won the Campbell Award as the smartest
player in college football that year, so that's pretty cool too.
When you're an all American, you win all these awards, you're an
NFL player, but you are also the smartest player in college football.
So I didn't talk to Sam about anything except football 'cause he was too smart.
I didn't wanna get into any conversations with him of that
because I knew I couldn't stay up.
Clif Marshall: Oh, well, I could tell you Coach Sam was on time this morning.
He was pumped up, ready to go, setting up straight in his chair.
The respect he has for you is just incredible.
And I wanna start to show off today by asking Sam what is the impact that
Coach Brown has had on you, not only as a football player, but also as a man?
Sam Acho: Yeah.
Well, coach, I'm gonna speak to you directly.
The impact that you've had on me.
It be put into words, cliff.
observation that when you got on the call, I mean, we do these podcasts all
the time, but you got on the call and all of a sudden, not only am I sitting
up straight and trying to make sure I'm correct, but I'm making sure that
I'm not only on time, but I'm early.
I'm making sure you're getting everything you need.
I try to do this for everyone, but there's a different level of respect and even
as I'm, even as we were talking before we press record, the biggest correlation
I can make for you Coach Brown is.
I remember getting a chance a few years back to meet, uh, president
Bush and President Clinton at an event in Arizona, and I'd meet people from
all around the world and, you know, in sports and media and business.
And, and I remember when President Clinton walked into the room,
there was this aura about him.
It was this feel of, man, this is like royalty is what it felt like.
Not even going back to when we first met Coach, but even on this
podcast as we're talking, I'm like, man, this is, this is royalty.
There's this aura about you.
And I know that doesn't just happen overnight.
Uh, it's this, it's just who you are.
And so it's no wonder that you've won everywhere you've been,
but it's not just on the field.
Every, anyone who speaks about you or who knows that I know you or
knows that I, I played for you.
They say the same things about you.
They say, man, he's a man of integrity.
He's a man of character.
He's a man of his word.
And those are phrases that are rarely used for people in general,
but also people of your stature.
And so the impact that you've had on me, coach Brown, is that you've shown
me, you've modeled to me specifically what it means not just to be a man.
Not just to be a leader, not just to be a husband, not just to be a father, but to
be whole, to be a, a person of integrity.
And so I just wanted to make sure that you heard that from me because
as I said, I'm trying to put it into words, but if anyone's watching the
podcast, there's, they're seeing I'm sitting a little bit different than
I usually do, you know, and I'm,
Clif Marshall: Yeah.
Sam Acho: and uh, I might be talking a little bit different than I usually do.
I'm just honored coach, that you would say yes.
Mack Brown: Well, thank you Sam.
That's the reason you coach right there is because if you can have a small
influence on somebody's life, um, that that's, that's the reason you coach.
That's it.
And, and you can't do it without winning.
'cause you don't get to stay.
But the winning is just a byproduct of what you can give to people.
And you know, I had, uh, Sam did one of our games this year, cliff last year.
And, um, I had about 15 pictures up on the wall in my office, and the
two OCHO brothers were in there.
So not
only have I had an influence on their lives, they've had a tremendous
influence on my life, going back to their mom and dad as well.
I.
And, and it's just, uh, you're so blessed as a coach because you get to meet so
many families and really and truly, you get to choose the ones that you think
should join your family in coaching.
And Sally and I were very, very careful of who we chose.
And Sam would tell you, I sat in some offices and rooms and
homes and said, you know what?
I don't think I would come if I was you.
And here's why.
Because I thought it was very important that.
I had been recruiting for 47 years.
That family had been in recruiting for six months, so I knew more
about the process than they did.
So I always tried to look at the Acho family and say, if
I was them, where would I go?
And why?
Because if I wouldn't come to Texas, then they're gonna realize that
at some point it's not gonna work.
So I always wanted guys that should be there and they should
be there for the right reasons.
And, and that's because it, it, uh, that's the reason it worked for so many
years in, in my estimation, and people were always taken back when you'd be so
honest with 'em and say, um, I'd always say, say, what are you looking for?
And then he'd say, well, I'm, he, he was looking at Virginia, he was looking at USC
and, uh, I, I said, you love your family.
You need to stay close to home.
You need to, you, you're smart, you're gonna make a great living, uh, in the
state of Texas when you get through with all this stuff because that really, that,
that was his name, image, and likeness.
Back then, we weren't giving money for name, image, and likeness, but you were
getting credibility, meeting boosters, uh, making your brand in your own state.
And he did that in so many different ways.
Now when Sam Acho walks down the streets in Austin, Texas, people know who he is.
And if he'd been at Virginia or USC, it probably wouldn't be the same 'cause
he was gonna move back to Dallas or Austin when he got through playing.
So I think Sam, more than anything else that that's what I, I've
enjoyed so much is helping families make the right decision for them.
If it was the right decision for them to come, it was the right decision for us.
But if it was the wrong decision for them to come, then it
didn't work for us either.
And so many coaches say, I gotta get him.
He's a five star.
He's a, uh, and in it really and truly, it's who you get more than what you get.
And I think that's the, the difference in recruiting.
Sam Acho: Coach, I did want to ask one question, and I know Cliff had
a lot of questions, but these are questions I've never been able to ask.
Uh, why did you recruit me and my family?
Mack Brown: Number one, you've got incredible integrity, and I love your dad.
Your dad was direct.
He knew what he wanted.
He knew what he wanted for you guys.
So many parents will sit there and say, oh, it's his decision.
He's 17.
It's not his decision.
He's not ready to make decisions.
Yet the parents have to help make decisions.
Your dad was gonna help you make that decision because he loved you so much
and he knew what was best for you, and he was gonna let you feel like you
had done it, but he was gonna do it.
And, and, uh, that that was a big part of it.
The other thing is that when you recruit, you've gotta be smart enough.
To take a, take a guy who's gonna get better.
You were a guy who was talented, but you didn't have all the tools yet.
You were gonna work really hard.
You were gonna stay out of trouble.
You were gonna eat right, you were gonna gain more weight, you
were gonna get more strength.
You were gonna be a guy that would finish a lot better than you started, and you've
gotta be careful sometimes, especially when some of these high school programs
are so well coached and their strength programs are so good that the big guy
is a better player as a freshman than he is gonna be when he gets to college.
And, and you, you, he kinda outgrows himself.
So you, you've gotta get the guy with potential that you can develop, and I
thought you were perfect in, in that area.
Plus the
other thing, Sam, and I'm I'm sorry, cliff, let me, this
other thing.
Sally and I went back and looked at everybody.
We'd recruited for 36 years, and we found that when there was a 3.0
or above, especially at a good school like yours, St.
Mark's.
That there was about a 99% chance of success, and we found that
core GPA was one of the most important indicators for success.
And then you would ask why?
Well, it meant you were at home at night.
It meant you were studying.
It meant you cared about your grades and you were gonna care
about 'em when you got there.
So that meant you weren't out using drugs, you weren't out drunk, or you
couldn't have kept the grade point up.
And the second thing we noticed is if it was a high SAT and a low
GPA, then he is probably lazy.
'cause he is really smartening read, but he didn't study.
But if it's a high GPA and a lower test score, it probably meant he just didn't
do all the SAT testing when he was younger and he didn't learn to read those tests.
'cause they're, they're different.
So.
So you were also.
Uh, the perfect quote profile for what we were looking for
with our family and we liked you.
I also learned that if you, if you don't like somebody, they're not gonna like you.
And if in that fourth quarter I needed somebody who wanted to
fight for me, I needed somebody who wanted to fight for himself.
And if you didn't like me, if we didn't like each other, if we weren't all
in, then this thing just didn't work.
And, and we had to be aligned and I was aligned with you and your family.
You had to have a strategic plan.
I knew you had one, and, and then you had to have a family together
to make that plan go through.
And, and that all worked for us.
Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I have a, um, a kind of a reminder in my office here.
Um.
Regard to coaching and it says, A good coach can change a game.
A great coach can change a life.
And I was blessed to train Sam Acho for the NFL combine, but I was also able to
train another a, a number of other Texas Longhorn players like Jackson, Jeff Coat.
Jordan Hicks.
I was on the Bengal Strength staff and was able to train guys like Cedric Benson,
and all of them talked so very highly of the impact that you had on their life.
I want to ask you, uh, you know, Jordan Hicks, Jackson, Jeff Coat, the Acho
Brothers, you were able to recruit those guys in high school and then train
them throughout their college career?
not necessarily the case now with college football, with the
NIL and the transfer portal.
I kind of want to get your thoughts on the current state of college football.
Mack Brown: Cliff, the, the wonderful thing about what we had in those years.
Or that I saw Jackson the other night and he's wonderful.
I saw, um, Jordan the other night, and he's wonderful.
I see Sam all the time 'cause we had a family and these
guys are gonna be best friends for the rest of their lives and they're gonna
be best man in each other's wedding.
And they're, they're gonna call when they need help.
And, and if you get a, a, a group like North Carolina supposedly had
67 players leave since January.
That means you've got 67 new players.
Colorado had a complete change of roster when Dion Sanders came.
Um, so when you, Ole Miss had 38 transfers last year.
So when you start looking at this, we're not going to have the Sam Achos
that come in with his freshman class and stay together and grow together
and win together and graduate together.
So I, I don't like that near as well.
We're, we're, um, we've, we've really gotta look at the transfer portal because
Sam's dad wouldn't have let him transfer.
But a lot of families, if they, they just want 'em to play and they want 'em
to start, they want 'em be in the NFL.
So if it's not working as a freshman, which most freshmen do not play a lot.
Um, then they wanna transfer.
Well, if you transfer once you've got a 63% chance of graduating, because
of the courses that will not transfer.
So if you transfer 2, 3, 4, or five times, you're not gonna graduate.
If you don't graduate, you're probably gonna make more money.
You can't get a job.
You're not going to have a community of boosters around you that respected what
you did and know you and want to hire you when you graduate 'cause you've had five
different ones or four different schools.
And then I'm really worried about mental health when we get out because
you got more money to come to school than you're making when you get out.
You may, you can't get a job, you may be homeless, you're sure not
gonna get a job where you can make the amount of money you're going to
expect after you are given money.
And given money really coming into school without earning it.
Um, so I I, we, we need to have some urgency, cliff, and we gotta have some
things change and change quickly for the, the benefits and mental health to me, of
college football players and families.
We've just, we've, we've gotta have some things change.
Sam Acho: Coach, you talked about mental health, uh, and I'm, I'm jumping in again.
People don't often see.
They hear about the impact, they don't see the impact that a coach has on a player.
I got a chance to not only hear about it and see it, I'm not gonna say the player's
name, but a, a teammate of, of mine.
We were at Texas, uh, from a, uh, uh, essentially his dad was like
the biggest drug dealer in town.
His uncle was the second biggest, like that whole deal.
And I didn't know any of this until I'm in the film room one day.
I believe I was a senior or a junior.
This guy was a freshman.
I'm in the, I'm just in the room, meeting room by myself watching tape.
This guy happens to hop in.
We have a conversation and he comes to tell me that, oh yeah,
every morning at, I think it's 6:00 AM correct me if I'm wrong.
He's like, I go and I meet with Coach Brown and we just talk about life
coach.
This guy's family was, like, I said, we talked about it.
Dad was, I mean, you could explain the story, but why?
Why that?
Why do you do that part of it?
Mack Brown: Sam, I, I, uh, I love my grandfather.
He was the, my, my mentor and he was the, uh, winningest football
coach, high school football coach in Middle Tennessee history.
At that time, our high school stadiums named after him, Eddie Jelly
Watson, he was the first to integrate schools in the state of Tennessee.
So he got it long before anybody should get it.
So I went to school with guys of color and didn't even think anything about it.
Um, so when I got into coaching, I.
The influence that a Steve Sloan, who was at, uh, Florida State is my offensive
coordinator, a Bill Parcells, who was the defensive coordinator at Florida State,
and then head coach of the Cowboys.
My grandfather, my dad was a coach.
The influence that those guys had on me.
And then older coaches have been so good to me.
Coach Royal was like an older brother to me.
Coach Bowden, coach Paterno, uh, coach Beckler, coach Holts, those guys, I
could call them, they'd call me right back and, and answer my questions.
So they had such an influence on me then I felt like I needed to be that guy.
So you, you think about why you're coaching.
And, and people would say, well, he's a player's coach.
Well, I hope that's what, that's what this is all about.
And then Sam, as we get older, we, we have so many, uh, players say,
remember when you grabbed me as a sophomore and you, you jumped me for
this and.
Some of it I remember, some of it I don't, I probably didn't jump
him as much as he felt like I was jumping him, but that's okay.
Uh, but, but when I get sit down with you guys and realize that a
coach has to be really careful what he says to a player because the
player listens and it does matter.
And then at North Carolina, we, um, we were there for a month, month and a half.
They'd won three games two years before we got there.
They'd won two games a year before.
So they're really struggling and they didn't have a lot of self-confidence.
And one of the guys in the first team meeting said, tell us how you win.
I thought, oh gosh, we don't have time for that today.
Um, so we were in the mountains of North Carolina.
We had a friend that worked.
For us around our house.
And his son worked for our, some, his son was a freshman at, at Appalachian State.
He committed suicide and it scared us.
We ran back to the team immediately.
We knew we didn't know him very well.
We knew they weren't at a great place with our confidence.
And we had a team meeting and Sally and I sat there and you
know how involved Sally is?
It's a she, she loves the players.
And we sat there and said, okay, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a doctor.
So I, I don't know enough about suicide and what I'm supposed
to say and all those things.
I do know that it really hurts your parents and it's
selfish if you take your life.
I do know it really hurts your friends and your teammates.
So if anybody in here is struggling, man, don't, let's, let's just talk about it.
It's not worth it.
We're, it'll be okay.
We all go up and down and we get in some tough places and
we need to work ourselves out.
And I said, uh.
So the, let's come on man.
Let, let's talk to a friend, talk to me, talk to a counselor, anybody,
and it'll be, it'll be private.
So we go upstairs and a young man named Jake Lawler that the
story was done by ESPN, so he doesn't mind me using his name.
He came upstairs and sat there with Sally and I, and he said I was on a
bridge a couple of nights ago and I was, I was gonna jump and I need help.
Clif Marshall: Hmm.
Mack Brown: He got help now, he's a great screenwriter for Disney.
Uh, he's doing so well.
So the, you've gotta be careful, Sam.
You can not only help change lives, but you can help save lives as a coach.
And I'm constantly preaching to coaches.
When you walk by a young guy and he looks down or he doesn't look
at you, he's screaming for help.
I.
So when you say something to a player, you better be really, really
careful that that not only do you mean it, but you can follow up with it.
So one of the things we did at North Carolina better than Texas, 'cause the
setup wasn't that way, we ate lunch every day with our players at North
Carolina and Sally would go sit with one and I would sit with another group
and, and then if, if, like if you were walking by and I'd say, Sam, how are you?
And you said, I'm okay.
Then I knew I better go sit down.
Something was wrong.
And I would say, okay, that's not your, your normal facial expression.
Um, help me man, what's wrong?
And he'd usually say, I lost a friend last night.
I had a friend get shot.
I had, I had a friend die in a car wreck.
My mom's got cancer.
And then you say, okay, let's, let's get some help.
Let, let's get, uh, mental health counseling today.
We, it's, there's nothing wrong with that.
And we had Dwight Hollier, who was a great linebacker in the NFL that
played for us at North Carolina, uh, was our mental health counselor.
So he would come and eat lunch.
He'd be at every practice.
So we, we wanted guys around just we can help.
And it's, uh, when I was growing up, you weren't supposed to talk to counselors.
You were soft.
You were weak.
and and now it's okay.
If you need help, reach out and get help.
But, uh, that's the thing, Sam and Cliff more than anything else, is that
I graded myself on how the players did after they got outta school.
We said it was a 40 year decision, it's not a four.
And we said, if we buy into this and you, you come to our school, then your family.
Then we're gonna take care of you the best we can for the, the rest of
our lives and the rest of your lives.
And that's important.
Now, some of you guys are getting old enough, it's a 50 year
decision instead of 40, so I gotta, I gotta keep it going here.
But I think the, the impact of a coach is, is really how you change lives and
how you possibly save lives, even that you may not know anything about and,
and how you help young people take negatives and turn 'em into positives.
This year we had a, um, a very difficult situation at North Carolina
with a young man named Tylee, Kraft.
And Tylee was in an elevator with Sally when he was, um, 21 years
old, and he fell and we were scared and we thought he had back cramps.
That's what they thought.
Well, that night he couldn't sleep.
They took him to the hospital.
He had stage four lung cancer.
So because of great treatment at at UNC hospitals and, and being around the team.
And he was able to live for two and a half more years.
But one of the reasons that we felt like we should stay another
year in coaching, uh, was for him.
'cause we knew it, it, it wasn't going to end well for him and the team.
And, and what a tough thing.
We lost Cole Pittman many years ago with a, a truck accident at, at, uh, Texas.
Um, but that, that was in the spring is really hard.
This was going to be during the season.
So Sally and I stayed and, and we learned a lot of things from Tylee, um, because
he would come to every practice, he'd be throwing up after chemo and radiation,
and he would come out and be throwing up and I'd say, go back to your apartment.
Come on man.
Get some sleep, get some rest.
He said, no, coach.
I need to be around my, my team.
I need to be around my family.
And, and then he would fight.
And then he went from, from working out to a, a cane, to a wheelchair, to hospice.
And the guys watched him go through those stages.
And, and that's a, a very difficult learning situation
when you see somebody your age.
I.
That, that's not gonna make it.
And then guys, we even had it where we were, it was the Georgia Tech game.
Had a call on Friday night at like two o'clock in the morning that
said, we don't know that Ali's gonna make it till the game tomorrow.
The game was at noon.
And I'm thinking, okay, what do you do?
What's best for the team?
Do you cancel a game?
Do do you tell him if he dies tonight?
Um.
Then he, we, we got to the stadium at 10 because he made it through the night.
What if he dies at 10 30?
What if he dies at 11?
Do you still have the game?
Do you tell him?
Do you not tell him?
And he was being honored, his family was being honored 'cause he was in hospice
at the end of the first quarter and I was hugging his mom and I could tell she
was crying, so I knew it wasn't good.
Um, so Tylee died during the second quarter.
And then after the game, we get beat on the last play of the game, Sam.
It's awful.
We're we're, we're tied.
We drop a touchdown pass, win the game, then they get the ball back, they hand
it off and go 68 yards on an inside zone for a touchdown, which cannot happen.
So I'm walking off the field, we've just lost a game.
And Sally says, she said Tylee just passed away.
And his mom wants you to tell the team, she wants you to tell the media and she
wants you to come and see the family.
So as a head coach, your responsibility is, is not about
that, that last play, which shouldn't happen, you gotta fix that.
But what do you say to a team?
You just lost a, a devastating game on the last play of the
game that you shouldn't have.
Oh, by the way, you lost one of your best friends too.
He passed away during the second quarter.
Then what do you say to the media then how do you go handle the, the family?
But those are coachee's responsibilities and a lot of people, you, you, and why I
say that is, is that was such a negative to lose such a wonderful young person.
He is.
Got a great, great point.
Average.
He was a, a really super person.
He was going to be a starting receiver.
And, and you, you go through all of that and then at the end you look back and at
the funeral they said a couple of things.
The, the minister said, um, Mitch Mason, who is our minister, who's doing
a great job and he's got a rare nerve disease that he's fighting through.
So, um, the, he gets up and says, okay, you, you don't know how
much time you've got, none of you.
So you better enjoy your time.
'cause you control some things in your life.
You don't control how long you live.
We just saw that.
So you better get up every morning.
You better be grateful for what you've got.
You better be happy and you better be giving back to other people.
And the second thing he said, which made sense, he said, and if you and
your family and your best friends are healthy, you have no problems
because you go home today and they say your wife's got a month to live.
You drop all those other problems.
You better be grateful every night when you go to bed and every morning when you
get up and, and, and pray for health.
And I, I always pray for health and happiness of my family, my
friends, and all of our players.
I say, God, I know to make 'em all happy is a little tough.
I, I want health for sure.
I'd like to have happiness, but if they're healthy, they're probably gonna
be happy and we can help 'em be happy.
But let's, let's make sure they're healthy.
So you, you have to take things as a coach and, and learn, but you
have to take negatives and, and try to turn 'em into a positive.
And I learned so much from Cole Pittman's Loss.
I still do.
There's a book.
His dad, mark did, there's a movie coming out now that they're working on.
I learned so much from Tylee.
He, he, he said at the end, the last thing he said to the
team was, man, keep swinging.
Keep swinging.
So every time I think about something negative in my life,
I said, keep swinging, man.
'cause I can see Tylee smiling.
So some people can live for 85 years and not impact people's lives.
Tylee lived for 23 and he had a huge influence on so many people,
in fact, in the entire state.
And I think that Cliff is what coaching's about more than anything else.
Clif Marshall: I couldn't agree more.
Coach, I hear you talking and I just hear you talking now that you kind of
coached with an eternal perspective.
And what I've learned being a strength and conditioning coach for 25 years
is that results are temporary, but relationships are eternal.
And I just talking on the show here, we, we oftentimes
talk to our guests about pain.
How pain can have purpose and as painful as these tragic deaths were, I can see
that there's purpose in it and the way that these athletes have impacted others.
And now the way as a coach, you impacted your athletes at both
Texas and also North Carolina.
Um, I did want to ask you, coach, um, you had great success in college.
You won a national championship at Texas.
You go to North Carolina, you become the all time winningest coach
in the football team's history.
Did you ever think of moving on to the NFL and coaching professional football?
I.
Mack Brown: Cliff I did, and I had a couple opportunities and, and
when I really thought about it, I thought my gift is relationships.
My gift is to take the 17, 18-year-old and help him grow.
I didn't know about free agency.
I didn't know about the NFLI had Dan Hennings, a great friend of mine and I
coached with him at, at Florida State.
He, he was the head coach of the Falcons and maybe the, the Chargers, and he
was the head coach at Boston College.
And he said, once, don't coach in the pros.
'cause you can't afford to live in the same neighborhood with a quarterback.
And, and it's getting to be that way in college now, so
that's a little bit tougher too.
With, with, with, with NIL.
Uh, Vince Young told me the other day, coach, if we had NIL I'd
still be playing college football.
And I think that's true.
He still would and he'd be making more than he would in the pros.
Um, but, but I just felt like that God put me in a place
to, to coach college football.
And that's who I was and what I was, and I knew what I was doing.
I knew what I wanted and I didn't want to go to a place where I
wasn't sure what was going on.
And, and I went, Sam knows I wanted to be in charge.
And in the NFL, as the owner in charge, as the general manager in charge,
are you in charge of everything?
I didn't want scouts telling me who to recruit.
I didn't want draft choices being picked that maybe I didn't want.
So I just felt like Cliff, that I, I wasn't, I, I always tried to
evaluate was I best for them too.
So for that reason, I felt like I wasn't best for the NFL
because I wasn't bought in.
I really didn't grow up with it.
I, I didn't know enough about it.
I was, I was gonna be the rookie.
And that's why so many college coaches that go to the NFLI think don't make
it 'cause there's such a learning curve and you don't have much time.
And, and that was the, uh, one of the, the more important things.
And, and, um, I, I talked to a couple of people about head coaching
jobs and, uh, was offered one and just said, no, not our deal.
We're, we're.
We we're college coaches, and Sally was very involved and,
um, it, it was perfect for us.
And, uh, I had a wonderful 36 years as a head coach and, and
wouldn't trade it for anything.
Sam Acho: Mm.
Coach you as, as I'm listening and I know you, but a lot of people who are
listening probably know you as well, but you, you talk about Sally a lot, and
I want to tell a story, and then I'll ask a question.
I asked you.
Why me and my family?
Well, the reason I chose Texas, I was getting recruited by, you
know, a bunch of different schools, but every coach that I met, they
always talk about, oh, we're family.
We're a family, family atmosphere, family, this family that,
and I visited all
Mack Brown: out.
You liked out Outgrow and Pete Carol.
I know.
I, I remember.
I remember sitting,
Sam Acho: But I said, no, I,
this is true.
This is true.
I was, I was this close to going to USCI was this close to going to
Virginia, but then I ended up visiting Texas and when I visited Austin Real,
actually, before I go there, coach, you were, I need to hear this story.
Um, so was getting recruited by a bunch of different schools and you were.
I think you, were you on like the one vacation that you take O over the year?
And mind you, I'm like, okay, where's Texas?
Where's Texas?
And then finally, I think you ended your vacation early because some of the
coaches were like, Hey, Sam is thinking about going to the to these other places.
But when I went to go and visit, not only was I met, you know, people who
know me and they know I'm Nigerian.
Right?
So you had Brian Orakpo, a Nigerian player, Chris ob, who I saw a couple
weeks ago, meet me and greet me.
Then I walked into your office and it was you.
It was my mom, my dad, me and my brother.
But it was you and it was your wife, Sally, sitting down in your office.
Every other place I've been to, they talk about family, but none of them
ever had their family with them.
You asked why I committed to Texas because when you said something, you backed it up.
You meant it, and so.
All that being said, my question is, what does Sally Brown mean to you?
Mack Brown: Um, Sally's been everything to, to me and our program.
And, um, I was married 18 years, got a divorce.
Uh, the girls, I, I met Sally a year and a half later and the girls lived with us
halftime and they were her girls then.
Uh, she had two boys.
They became my sons.
Um, 'cause we were the ver Reverse Brady Bunch.
Sally was, uh, she had a, uh, architectural design degree from Cal.
She'd never seen a football game when we met.
She had no interest.
In fact, she said, I don't care about football.
Then she realized when you lose, you do care about football
'cause you're miserable.
The players are miserable.
She said, Ooh, I get it.
We need to win.
And that's a big part of this.
Um, but I always felt like that players' moms are really important to 'em.
And that if you're going to have a family, there need to be ladies around.
And all of the assistant coaches', wives needed to be involved.
They need to be around, they need to be at practice.
And that's why I also said that, um, I, I don't want cussing at practice.
I don't want screaming and demeaning players at practice.
'cause we got ladies there and we got children.
I wanted the children in the, in the, um, in the office because
the coaches are gone so much.
I still wanted them to be able to be a father and, and be
able to, uh, have a family.
So Sally decided, Sam, that she would come to every practice.
I.
She could see me and the players.
She would eat lunch with me every day because, uh, that way I would have to
get out of the office and we could sit and visit on things we needed to do.
And then she, she did not care about athletics, but she started
playing golf because I played golf and she wanted to play with me.
I felt like that she has a, a great perspective away from
football about people and life.
So she would go sit.
If you were struggling, I'd say Go, go find out what's wrong with Sam.
Sam's got his head down and she would, she, she'd say, you sit down with a guy
and he's eating, he'll spill his guts.
Uh, 'cause he'll, he'll say anything.
So Sally would come back with information or then she'd come in and say, well
this player doesn't have enough money for his insurance on his car.
I said, he just bought a Range Rover, so don't talk to me about
he don't have enough money.
Um, so, uh, Sally has been a vital part of, of our, our team, our family, our
wins, and, um, I mean, she, she was so passionate with Tylee through the whole I.
The, the entire sickness of two and a half years that that family became
a member of our family or vice versa.
and and it, it, um, um, it's really hard emotionally, you, the older you get when
you lose a game, you hate it more for the players 'cause they're working so hard.
And especially one that dropped a pass or.
Or fumble the ball or miss the tackle.
Um, you hate it so much for them that it, it, uh, it makes it more difficult
to coach because you are emotionally invested in every player that you have.
And the other thing I hated Cliff and Sam is that you, when you've got
120 players and only 11 can play, everybody's working hard and some
have more talent than others, but some just aren't gonna get to play.
And I hated that for them.
Uh, the other thing, I hated it if one of 'em got in trouble because it
changed the course of his life and he was young enough, he probably didn't
realize that, but that would be on his record for the rest of his life.
And the third thing is, uh, I got hurt a lot.
I had two knee operations, so, uh, I hate it when a guy got hurt because
I could see that just took him.
That just took him right, right out of a, a place to be and have success and
have a chance to, um, have his dream and his life, and it changed his dream.
So those were things that were important to me.
Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I gotta ask you, you've spent your entire life.
Football.
Right.
And you've coached, as you said, for 36 seasons.
does the next chapter look like for you?
Mack Brown: Next chapter for me is, uh, you, you don't retire, you rewire
and you reinvent yourself every year.
So I love the game of football.
The coaches that coach it and the players that play it.
So I'm gonna stay involved in, in somehow, I'm not sure what, um,
I'm probably going to do a podcast.
Vince and I are talking about doing one about Texas football, past and
present, which will be a little crazy.
Sam, you know how my man is?
He?
He'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll be out there.
So I, I love Vince.
Um, and I'm, I'm speaking a lot.
I'm traveling a lot.
Um, I'm getting in better shape when you're, I'll be 74 in August, so I.
Uh, I wanna be around these grandkids, so I, I don't want to
get outta shape where I can't play with them and be involved with them.
So, um, I'm having a, uh, you, you have to reinvent yourself every year.
Anyway, cliff, and I'm having a lot of fun doing that, trying to figure out,
um, I'm not a person that, that can get up every day and not have a purpose.
So Sally and I, we have a, a charity that's been, uh, blessed, uh, by, by.
So many people in Austin that that's made a lot of money to give
back, to empower kids that need it in, in a lot of different areas.
They've changed some lives and saved some lives.
So that's, that's really a blessing for us.
But I also want to give back to younger coaches, like the older guys did to me.
So I'm available when they need something or call me or text
me and they need some help.
I'm, I'm there for them.
So, um, I, I think there's a.
Uh, there's a lot of fun things for me to do out there, and I've just gotta
figure out which ones I want to do.
And I, I do understand this is the 20th anniversary of the National
Championship game and all those guys have a podcast, a lunch.
A dinner.
Uh, so I've been doing a whole lot of that, and I'm not gonna tell,
I'm not gonna tell Sam no ever.
So I'm not going to tell these guys No, for sure.
But there's so many other people that are asking me to speak.
We, we've determined that I need to get 19 different ways, nice ways to
say no, because I can't do it all.
So I gotta, I gotta figure out some notes.
Sam Acho: Oh, I want to go back, uh, just to two quick things.
When, when we played.
When I was a player for you, there was a couple things that stood out to me.
We, one of 'em is we, we'd play rice and you'd have us eat rice before
the game, not just any kind of rice.
It'd be like food, uh, food coloring, like blue rice.
Before the game you'd have, uh, in the locker room before every game, you'd
have the fight song of the opposing team.
Going nonstop.
I mean, like, it was, I still remember, I could still tell you
the, the a and m fight song to this day because it was just nonstop.
Uh, you before one of our games, maybe freshman, sophomore year back
when like the Soldier Voice song was popular, you know, we have these team
meetings, clip, you know, you were a team meeting, whatever, coach Brown, like
the, the, the, you know, well-respected coach Brown walks into the meeting
room and doing the Soldier Boy dance.
Where did you, like, where did you learn how to motivate
people?
Mack Brown: I think Sam, it was from my grandfather.
But, but again, you've got to, if guys are uptight, you gotta relax 'em.
If they're flat, you gotta stir 'em up.
Um, but if they're, if when things are bad, you gotta pick 'em up.
You gotta pick 'em up.
So you had to have some fun and, and, uh, college football's hard.
People do not realize that you were like an Olympian.
You worked every day and you had to.
You had to eat right?
You had to sleep, you had to lift weights.
You didn't have the normal life of a college student, so
we had to add some fun to it.
Now, when I did the Soldier Boy dance, we got down 35 to 14 to Oklahoma
State starting the fourth quarter.
So I said, I'll never do that again.
That obviously didn't do well, but we came back and won the game 38, 35.
So it, it was okay, but, um, you all also needed to see me and, and Sally as people.
You needed to see our coaches as, as fathers and husbands, and you
need to see us be normal and, and if, uh, I had to be the bad guy.
So if I was the guy that said, no, no, no, you can't do this, you can't do that.
You can't have lunch with an agent.
You, you can't be out at night, you can't do this.
Then all you hear from me are negatives.
So I had to show a, a fun side.
'cause there, there's a fun side there.
And I always ask the coaches to treat their players like they would want their
son or their daughter to be treated.
And I said, if you do that, we're good.
And then if they would yell at you and in a, in a demeaning way, I said,
you want your son to be yelled at?
No.
Well, I said cut it then.
Just don't do it because that's, that's an important part of this.
So, um, I, I think that's the, I'm a smart Eck, you know that Sam, I love
cutting up, um, uh, I'm a smart Eck with my friends and they know I'm a
smart Eck, so that doesn't hurt their feelings when I, I say, uh, something
cute to you, you know, I'm cutting up.
Um, but I, I'm, um, I'm I'm probably too cautious with the media.
Because that's, you have to be careful what you say.
'cause when you cut up there, it becomes something bigger than it is.
I'd get home, Sally would say, did you say that?
I'd say, yeah.
I was cutting up.
She said, well, they missed that part.
Uh, so I, I think that that's, but it was fun for me to be me with
you guys and, and that was fun.
Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I gotta ask you, uh, you didn't coach just one Acho,
you coached two achos on the same team?
I gotta know, what was it like coaching two brothers?
Mack Brown: It was a lot of fun.
Even though they're very unique, they're very different in who they are.
I've got, uh, I lost one younger brother, but I've got older and younger
brothers and we were all so different.
Um, so I never really even thought about the two being brothers.
Because they were just uniquely different.
So I, I took them as individuals, but it was fun because they, they
were gonna do what was right.
Um, Sam was gonna have opinions and talk to you about it.
Emmanuel was gonna tell you what they were.
You didn't have to wait and ask.
He, he, he would say, I don't agree with that.
Sam would say, can we visit?
I mean, so there, there's, there's differences in their, in their
personalities, but they both were really unique and wonderful in, in who they are.
And, and, um, cliff, what I've learned is my life is better because I coached
both of them and because the achos are in my life, and that's what they,
they've gone back and built a hospital.
And, and I will say I, I coached a lot of Nigerian and young men, and every one of
'em was well taught, smart, driven, um, uh, there, there was no screwing around.
They were really serious about their lives.
And, and that's something every time I would see a a, a Nigerian player, I said,
okay man, let's go, let's go get him.
'cause he is gonna act right and he's gonna do right.
And like I said earlier about Sam, we knew that those players would
improve because it was really, really important to their families that they
showed pride and did what was right.
We had Ebenezer ban at North Carolina.
He was number one draft choice as a defensive end at at the Cowboys.
Ebenezer's Dad would call me every Monday morning for four years and
say, is he acting right, coach?
Is he doing what he's supposed to do?
Is he doing everything right in school?
Never mentioned football.
And I said, yes, sir, Dr.
Dr.
Uh, Eban.
And, and I mean every Monday.
So I would laugh with Ebenezer and he said, yeah, God, he wears
me out, coach, but that's okay.
That's, uh, he wants me to do well.
And I said, well, you're, you're.
Get the right answers.
Sam Acho: Well coach, uh, we're gonna let you go, but before we do, uh,
cliff always ends our podcast with the, what we call the cliff notes,
what he heard and learned from you.
and and so he is gonna share that.
And then I want to, we're gonna allow you to have, uh, have the last words.
So Cliff, what's the cliff note that you've learned and heard from Coach Brown?
Clif Marshall: Well, I think Pastor Billy Graham once said,
a coach will impact more people.
In one year than most people will in a lifetime.
And Coach Brown, obviously what I said earlier in the show, my Clif note
is a good coach can change a game.
A great coach can change a life.
And I know you changed Sam Acho's life and many, many others over
the last 36 years, so I salute you.
Obviously you've won championships.
Um, at both, uh, Texas throughout your, your time there, but what's
most impressive to me about you, coach Brown, is the impact that you've
had on the lives of your athletes.
Mack Brown: Thank you, Clif I, I don't like Sam.
I love Sam and
that, uh, the, the, the players in my life, uh.
are the reason that I've coached and I look back and people
say, what, what's your legacy?
My legacy?
I want it to be that I, I did help, uh, change a life, maybe save a life.
And that these guys, when they send me their pictures of their family and,
and at Thanksgiving and Father's Day, it's so fun, uh, just to see them.
And, and when I quit coaching, it was unbelievable how many
of the guys reached out and I'd want to cry reading their text.
I'd say, ah, quit that.
I don't wanna hear all that mess.
You, you guys are being too nice.
But I've been so blessed and, and I've been blessed because
of the Sam Achos of the world.
And when you can take that many guys, uh, in your life that
matter, that is very, very unusual.
And I can do that.
I'll, I'll close with this.
Coach Royal got dementia.
He went in a, um, in a home and I would go see him.
He didn't remember that the stadium was named after him.
He didn't remember that he had three national championships.
He didn't remember how many games he won, but when I was in there
seeing him, he knew every ex player's name that walked in that room.
And that told me that a coach's life is not about trophies.
It's not about money.
You can't be buried with all those things.
It's about relationships.
And that's kind of what we started the show with.
And that's what I thought about.
So to me, the importance of my life is the relationship that I have with these guys.
And, and that's it.
That, that's that, that's what I've gotten outta coaching and that's
what I'll take to my grave with me.
Sam Acho: Mm.
Well, coach, uh, the Bible talks about giving honor to whom honor is due.
Um, and I know I'm not the only one who's giving you honor, everywhere you've been
and everywhere you're going, at least on this earth and in the life to come.
Um, you will continue to get honor.
You've sown so well into so many people's lives in ways that people don't even know
about, and my hope and my prayer is that, as you said, you'll be 74 in August as you
continue to, to, um, age like fine wine.
You would reap the fruit of all those people who you've sewn into coach.
I mean, I ran into a guy last couple weeks ago at the UFL.
He's like, oh, coach Brown coach me at at North Carolina.
Oh man.
Take a picture.
You know?
And, and, and then like, and then we were texting about him.
He was texting about it, right?
We talk about the Vince Youngs of the word, we talk about the trophies.
Like I got tr like I'm at ESPN because I went to Texas.
If I'm just being honest.
You recruited me.
We had success, right?
Went to national championship and like behind me is trophies, it's helmets
and stuff like it's 'cause of you.
And so coach people talk about giving flowers.
I just want to give you honor and say thank you for investing, not just in
me, but in you and into your purpose.
Thank you for not saying I'm gonna go to the NFL 'cause there's more money or more.
This who said, no, I know who I am.
I know what I'm here for, and I know why I'm on this earth.
Coach Brown, I appreciate you.
I salute you.
I honor you.
I thank you.
Um, and I do want to end the podcast, but if you want any last
words, you're free to share 'em.
Mack Brown: Well, thank, thank you, Sam.
Uh, let me say that, uh, uh, I love you.
I love your, your brother, your family, and um, I'm just so blessed.
And you said you're at ESPN because of Texas and all those trophies behind you.
Well, I'm in the Hall of Fame 'cause of you and your brother
and a lot of guys like you.
So, uh, every time somebody introduces me as a Hall of famer, I said, yeah.
And all the players that played for me and all the coaches that coached with me, man,
we're, we're all in this thing together.
And, um, it, it's, uh, it, it's just been a, a wonderful run.
And, um, I'm so excited in college football.
Let me, let me close with this.
College football's gonna be okay.
I'm glad the players are getting paid.
They'd have paid you all but have given you 150,000 and an annuity on the way
out after graduating as a reward, we wouldn't even be here, but they waited
way too long to take care of the players and the parents of the players.
So now the consequences are, we're in, we're in deep and we're
in trouble, and we're in chaos.
But the game's still wonderful.
The players that are playing it are still wonderful.
They didn't ask for all this money.
They didn't ask for it.
Now, if it's out there, people are human, they're gonna ask.
And they're gonna want money, but it'll all get settled down.
We'll have a lot of smart people get in a room, they'll figure it out.
But we need to keep having the influence in, in lives like we had
at Texas, across the country and, and making sure that the, the, Cliffs and
the Sam, um, you guys have influence on people's lives moving forward.
And that's really, really important.
And thank you guys for having me on.
Sam Acho: Thank you on behalf of Hall of Fame coach and my coach, Mack
Brown, cliff Marshall, I'm Sam Mackho.
This is the Sam Mackho Podcast.
Go to sam Mackho.com
to find out not only about this episode, but also all the
episodes coming moving forward.
Thank You'all and see you soon.