Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin.
Rob: And I'm Rob.
Kevin: And we are here to talk about season two, episode five
of Strange New Worlds: Charades.
Rob: We certainly are.
Now, this episode has caused a little bit of controversy, a little bit of bruhaha.
Kevin: Has it now?
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
There's been,
Kevin: I'm still traveling, so I am off the grid.
I have not caught the bruhaha about this episode.
Rob: Either been absolutely adored or there's Star Trek
fans going, it's far too silly.
So it is most definitely, it's most definitely a comedy focused episode
with a bit of heart kicker at the end.
Kevin: Yeah.
Big time.
Rob: Me personally, I had a great time with this episode.
I thought it was a lot of fun and I really embraced the fun of it.
What about you, Kev?
Kevin: Me too.
I think I've said before that I don't mind some comedy in my Star Trek,
as long as it stands out as special.
And one all out comedy episode a season for Strange New Worlds is, that is
perfectly permissible, and in fact, I'd be disappointed if we didn't get it.
I am still a little worried that we've got a Lower Decks crossover to
look forward to later this season.
So it, it might be a little high on the comedy content, but judged on its
own merits, this episode lit me up.
I loved it.
Rob: It really had a strong kick at the end, a really strong
emotional kick at the end.
Kevin: It was more than the sum of its parts, this episode for me,
because of the strong execution.
Like when you stand back and you look at some of the shuttle wormhole stuff
and it, it maybe some of those story beats maybe don't stand up to scrutiny
entirely, that there was this big anomaly on a moon right near Vulcan that for
some reason the Enterprise was called in to explore it with a shuttle craft.
It's all a little vague and unclear.
and it kind of has to be that because I feel like it
wouldn't make sense otherwise.
So they're asking us to go along with them for the strength of the story,
and I was completely willing to go along with it because of the strength
of the performances and, and as always what it did for our characters.
Rob: Yes.
If the species that they came across only called when we identified them,
they were yellow and blue and there were multiple other beings there.
They were very transactional in their almost god-like powers.
And it very much reminded me of a Doctor Who story from first season with
Christopher Eccleston called The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances, a two-parter.
It's one of the greatest episodes ever.
And in that, it's nanobot technology that doesn't really understand the human form.
And so when it heals people, cause they're from a medical ship, they heal
them in the only example they have.
So they cause these hideous, grotesque mutations, but they
don't have a point of reference.
So it's that cold, logical thing.
And that came across in this episode because the big twist in this episode
is that these omnipotent beings turn Spock dun, dun, dun, human.
Kevin: Yeah.
And as he sat up from the bed, I, first of all I'm hearing some folks
out there knew this story was coming.
I did not know this story was coming, so when he sat up human,
I was like, Oh, of course.
This is going to be a hijinks episode, very similar to Spock Amok
last season where Spock and T'Pring
Rob: swap bodies
Kevin: personalities, the body swap episode, and great
hilarity came out of it.
Basically in the first 30 seconds of Spock being human, you could see what
they were going for and it was laughs.
Rob: Oh, and yeah.
The mere fact that they cut to the opening credits with him
going, what the f---, I went.
And now I know how you felt about Data in Generations going, Whoa, shit.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: you find the WTF moment for Spock, here?
Kevin: L look, I moved past it, let's put it that way.
I think in the moment I chuckled and rolled my eyes and went,
okay, I'll give you that one.
There better be a good story coming here.
And there was, there was.
I feel like something that's interesting about this episode is
that a lot of the comedy serves to disarm us for the emotional
gut punches that come towards the
Rob: There are some really big gut punches here, Kevin and I really am there for it.
Can I just say it is great to have Mia Kirshner back, as Amanda Grayson?
She appeared in Discovery.
And as a man of 45 years old who grew up in the eighties and nineties and
a hot blooded heterosexual male, I was very familiar with Mia's work.
She is incredible, an incredible actress, and she was this darling of the
independent theater scene in the nineties.
She did an incredible Canadian film, Exotica.
She did Unidentified Human Remains and The True Nature of
Love, the film version of that.
She was in The Crow too.
Horrible film, but she was amazing.
She did The L Word.
She was this like really powerful, talented, deep,
sexy actress in the nineties.
And she got lost in the system and for her to come back, and in typical Star Trek
fashion when, Zachary Quinto's mum in the movies is Winona Rider, they bring in Mia,
who's only 10 years older than Ethan Peck.
But to have her back in a substantial role, as opposed to just in a couple
of flashbacks, or exposition scenes, and she knocked it outta the park.
She had some heavy lifting to do and her and Ethan Peck have such great chemistry.
It was wonderful to see.
Kevin: Indeed.
Yeah, I also, we're gonna talk about this in a little bit, but I had an
opportunity to revisit the original actor who played Amanda Grayson, Jane
Wyatt, back in the original series.
And having just seen our modern incarnation of Amanda going back
and seeing Jane Wyatt the casting done here was actually remarkable.
There is a uncanny likeness, like she could be Jane Wyatt minus 20 years, and
there's just something about the smile and the eyes that is instantly connects
the two and perhaps more than any other legacy character, let's say, or character
that is carried from back in the sixties and then into modern Star Trek, I feel
like the casting is pitch perfect here.
I don't have to.
Go along with a change of look.
Even in Pike's case, I feel like Anson Mount, I'm happy to have him on board
because he's such an amazing actor.
I don't quite buy him as Jeffrey Hunter minus 10 years.
But Amanda Grayson here, they could be the same person.
Rob: Yeah.
And there's lovely little touches because we talked about Star Trek IV The Voyage
Home, and and the original actress coming back to do her opening scene
with Spock when he's finding his memory.
But the connection here is, in this episode, this is Spock right in the middle
of his lack of communication with his dad.
Sarek is so disappointed in him joining Starfleet.
He's not even talking to his son at this point.
And that really tears up the family.
And when you cut ahead, you have to go ahead however many decades that
finally in the final scene of Star Trek IV, at the end he goes, If I recall,
I was not happy with your decision to Starfleet, and that was wrong.
And then the two of them bond.
And I'm there going, that's decades.
That's 20, 30 years in the making and we're at the point where
they're not talking at all.
It's really powerful stuff and it's really beautifully done, and especially
Ethan Peck's performance and Mia's performance, to go back to when he talked
to her about what she sacrificed as a mother so that he could be, you know,
the son that you know that she want.
It's just powerful stuff.
It's really good work.
Actors at the top of their form.
Kevin: Yeah.
A canon connection that you might have missed is at the very beginning,
Chapel is reciting the things that she's memorizing for her interview
with the Vulcan Science program.
And she's reciting Korby's three laws of xenobiology or something like that.
Korby is a very important name in Christine Chapel canon.
One of the very few things we find out about Christine Chapel in original
series, apart from she's head over heels for Spock in unrequited love is that
she has a previous re relationship with Roger Korby, who is a xenoarcheologist
who disappeared and they in the episode, I believe it's called, What Are Little
Girls Made Of?, they rediscover Roger Korby, who turns out to have been
killed and replaced by Androids.
Rob: Of course.
Okay.
There's that sci-fi twist where they go, what is it?
What is it?
Ah, of course, pesky androids.
Kevin: I will never forget the scar that was left on my psyche as a young
child of Roger Korby's scraped hand and like the skin flayed off of it to
reveal android workings underneath.
And him like holding his hand up to Christine going, it's just skin.
It's easily repairable, Christine.
I'm still the man you loved.
Rob: Powerful stuff.
Kevin: A great episode.
Yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
So in this particular episode, Spock, even though has been transformed
into human, there's problems at home.
T'Pring and him are coming up to their engagement ceremony that they need to
do an acceptance from T'Pring's family.
We have her family arrive on the ship because they can't make their
way back to Vulcan for the ceremony because of the humanization of Spock.
We have Amanda show up.
We have.
We have Pike offer his room as the ceremonial place, and he's catering.
He's catering for the whole event.
Kevin: He cooks.
Rob: He's cooking for everybody, supplying drinks.
Anson Mount is in comedy fine form here.
His double takes.
Kevin: And also playing straight man to Spock in the bacon scene.
Rob: Yes, straight man there.
But then he could flip it around.
So when Spock, then being the straight man Anson Mount can be
the funny one who's walking in with a tray and going, oh, let's just
move off here in an awkward way.
Having a double take as he takes a shot of alcohol.
Love it.
Kevin: How great is T'Pring's dad?
That's a father-in-law.
I want.
Rob: Yeah.
There is not a mother-in-law I want, but there is definitely a father-in-law.
Kevin: You take, the one with the other.
Rob: Yeah, you can.
I don't think you could have one without the other.
Great moments for me.
Great to have Sam Kirk back being the unaware he's gotta read the room
better, and getting terrified by a human Spock threatening to, to end him.
Kevin: Over crumbs.
Yeah.
Rob: And in the background, they had a picture of Jonathan Archer's Enterprise.
Kevin: Oh really?
I didn't catch that.
Very good.
Rob: And, Spock in a beanie.
Spock in a Federation issued beanie really leaning into
that adolescent version of him.
Kevin: That's probably the biggest laugh I got this entire episode was
then he came in the beanie, I lost it and then he said It's regulation.
And Pike says, I have one just like it myself.
And I was dead.
So good.
Rob: Yeah, so it all came to a head with Spock standing up for his mother.
And and the reveal that, oh, yeah, you know the stepmother, they're saying that
despite your faults, your human side, you were able to do this ceremony perfectly.
And he goes actually, I've been human the whole time and it
makes me stronger, not weaker.
And his connection about his mother is beautifully done.
But at the end, it's really interesting cuz like our first shenanigans episode
was the body swap and that brought T'Pring and Spock closer together.
And another shenanigans episode used for T'Pring and Spock having some time apart.
I mean, Obviously we know this is a doomed relationship anyway, but it's amazing
how, to deal with these Vulcan emotional journeys, we put them in shenanigans.
Kevin: I'm sure we have not seen the last of T'Pring not least
because that actor is amazing.
Rob: She's incredible.
Incredible.
Kevin: She elevates every episode that she comes in.
And that costume, woo, the outfit that she and her mother-in-law argued about
for three hours, I don't, I'm gonna say it was worth it because she looked amazing.
Rob: And I think Ethan Peck said something about it was really good,
or he said, he made a comment about how good it was, and I'm, they're
going, I'm right there with you.
Kevin: But yes, I'm sure we'll see her again.
We've got the dangling thread of Sybok in the rehabilitation clinic for Vulcans.
So I'm sure we'll see T'Pring in that context if no other, but it was notable
to me that the way this episode leaves off Spock and T'Pring could roll
right into the original series, now.
If the next thing we saw of T'Pring was Spock doing one of his
awkward family reveals where it's like, oh yeah, that's my wife.
You never told us you had a wife.
Like that, 5, 10 years from now is perfectly believable as a next beat.
Like Spock is emotionally unaware enough that he could let it fester in this
state for 10 years until he is forced to fight for his wife, as it were,
in Amok Time in the original series.
But I'm sure we, we have more to see of T'Pring and Spock.
Rob: I was a little bit disappointed with the appearance of Amanda Grayson and that
tantalizing hint of her knowing Pelia that we didn't have Carol Kane in the episode.
Hopefully that is a payoff we get to see with Pelia investing so much going,
Kevin: Yeah.
It was awkward, isn't it?
That they they went out of their way to set up Pelia for no reason that we know
of yet is a friend of Spock's mother's, and then Spock's mother appears and it's
okay, we're gonna get that payoff right?
And they say, no, not this week.
Sorry.
Rob: This is one of the episodes where Carol Kane isn't in it, and it
was, yeah I was looking out for that.
I was hoping for that.
And of course the big reveal at the end is that Chapel and Spock,
Kevin: Oh, such a great buildup to like, um, that was quite a kiss,
Rob: Look, look, we have done, I have, I fought for most of our last season to do
an episode fully focused on sex, Kevin.
You finally submitted and allowed us to do one episode and the, it was hot.
It was incredibly
Kevin: proves that you don't need to go to the sex in order
to make it hot on Star Trek.
This was, this was some steamy stuff.
The scene before where Chapel comes with the cure and Spock is about to confess
his feelings, and she just goes, Nope.
Stabs you in the neck.
And then walks out like in tears.
When she walks out this is like a recurring motif in, in Strange New Worlds
now, where the shot either begins or ends in soft focus and the character
walks into focus rather than it.
Rather than her walking forward and them racking, like following her with
the focus, the camera is sitting there waiting until she is ready to enter
the frame and she, she steps forward and just the devastation on her face.
That feeling of it like coming into focus in front of us makes it that much more.
Just so much going on there of the story, working, the acting, working and the
camera work, working to make us really feel that moment that makes the next
one where they finally kiss in Spock's quarters feel that much more elated.
Rob: It's really, it's, oh, we've spoken a lot about Spock in this,
but it's a very much a Chapel episode as well and her emotional journey.
She's, they've really added so many layers to Nurse Chapel as a character.
She's complex.
She's not someone you, you know, completely see as infallible.
She's got so many faults and problems and issues, but it never gets in
the way of her doing a great job.
And she's true to herself and she went through a lot this time.
Kevin: I've had my doubts about Jess Bush's ability to
add to the legacy of Majel Barrett-Roddenberry in, in this role.
But Long ago now she sold me, and now I am just like so glad we still have her.
In this episode, when they fly into the blue funnel and there are, are standing
in the trans-dimensional space arguing over whether their complaint period has
expired or not, and whether uh, friends are allowed to make complaints, that
moment where Chapel is standing face to face with nothing and needs to confess
her feelings in order to save Spock.
I was like watching it as two people.
On the one hand, I was watching it from the outside going, this is such
a sci-fi setup, of five unbelievable things have happened in short succession
here in order to force a character to confess out loud for the benefit of
the audience, feelings that we might not otherwise get to hear out loud.
It beggars belief.
But at the same time I was like, say it.
Just say it, Christine.
You know it to be true.
Rob: You were there with Uhura and Ortegas and they're just going, dude, just say it.
All right?
We all know it, okay?
Just say it.
But like Alice says, in in Through the Looking Glass, I like to believe in
three impossible things before breakfast.
In Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, I like to believe five impossible things before
we have Chapel confess her love for Spock.
And then the payoff at the end when she's rejected by the Vulcan
special program she wants to go in.
And he goes, okay, I'll just have to write about it myself about this
encounter with this omnipotent being.
And they go what was that?
He goes, just read it in my paper.
Boom.
Take that Vulcans.
Just like Spock says, Vulcans are jerks.
Kevin: Vulcans can be such jerks, he says.
And that is the theme we decided to carry with us into Star Trek
history today, Vulcans being jerks.
and so Rob, what did you find?
I've got a couple of things we could go to here.
I've got some Enterprise,
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: got some original series.
Rob: I went Enterprise.
I've gone on a Enterprise bender the last couple of weeks and I wanted
to stay down that, and of course
Kevin: I thought for sure you would take us to Deep Space Nine on this one.
Rob: I was look, I, because of the the recent sad, tragic news of the
passing of showrunner of season four of Enterprise, Manny Coto, recently
passing away with pancreatic cancer.
We send out sympathy and well wishes to him and his family.
What an incredible legacy with Star Trek.
And he doesn't really get the focus that he should.
I mean, I wasn't aware of him until quite recently, and so I find it quite
heartbreaking that I've only just discovered the impact he had on Star Trek.
And to have that taken away, he was such a important part of finding the
voice and shape of Enterprise, which was really lost for quite some time.
So yeah, I went down the rabbit hole of Enterprise for this one.
Kevin: Absolutely, I'm right there with you.
I, I watched a bit of season four Enterprise myself this week.
Uh, you wanna, You wanna intro it for our audience, Rob?
Rob: Yes.
I focused on the three part story as they do in season four.
To cut back on money, they did a lot of multi episode stories.
How very Doctor Who.
And we're looking at the three part story, The Forge, Awakening and Kir'Shara.
So this is tying up a lot of loose ends that have been going
in the previous three seasons.
It starts at the Vulcan Embassy with the Admiral and one of the representatives
from Vulcan talking about the Starfleet and are Earth ready and wanting to
go on into adventures on their own without being like babysat by the
Vulcans, which they've been doing pretty much since first contact.
And tension back and forth until there's a hit, an explosion where the admiral
is killed, close friend of Archer.
And the the delegate from Vulcan has been saved by the Admiral's sacrifice.
And that takes us down a massive three-part adventure, which I think
is probably a little bit too long.
Three parts is probably, outstayed their welcome a bit.
But it goes through who caused this explosion.
There's the High Council of Vulcan, who seemed to be intent on blaming it
on a dissident faction of the Vulcans.
Kevin: The Syrannites.
Rob: Syrannites and also blaming the Andorians, to lead into, which we find
out is a massive conspiracy that's actually the overseer of the Council,
his overriding mission to take down the Andorian people and rule Vulcan.
And while there's a subplot of trying to find these hidden scrolls, that from
one of the first prophets of Vulcan
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: From 1800 years ago.
Kevin: The original writings of Surak who was, who led in the time of enlightenment
where Vulcans discovered logic.
Rob: So it's a great episode that really showed the many layers of
the Vulcan culture as opposed to just robotic emotionless beings.
A race isn't defined by a stereotype.
It is, it is layered and multifaceted.
Kevin: Talk to me about Vulcans being jerks in this three parter.
Rob: It's very much, there's a ruthless, cold-hearted nature to
the Council, especially uh, V'Las is the main source behind it.
He has his own spy network, an old network that are loyal to him, willing to do
whatever it takes and to kill whoever they need to so that Vulcan can become
the mighty power that he wants it to be.
The Enterprise is shot at, nearly blown up.
We have camps where the Syrannites are located are bombed,
like blanket, carpet bombed.
And the infighting within the Vulcan culture about how much emotion to
express, what is not expressed.
We have T'Pol is having problems with her emotions, big surprise there when
with her run-in with her mum, played by the wonderful Joanna Cassidy, who we
all know from Blade Runner, and she was originally up for the role of Janeway.
Kevin: Of course, I didn't realize who, what I recognized her from.
Rob: So there's a lot going on here.
Archer gets the Katra of the leader of the rebellion inside
his brain, which leads him into the brain of the original prophet.
There's a lot of levels there.
Basically it's 2, 2, 2 and a half episodes of Archer walking
through the desert with T'Pol, and.
And a lot of machinations going on behind the scenes.
We have really a really weird over the top dramatic torture scene
with the Andorians and a Vulcan.
But there's some good stuff in there about adding layers to the Vulcan culture
and how it can go extreme and it can go into quite nefarious and deadly areas.
Kevin: As I've read in hindsight this three parter was crafted no doubt with
great input from the late, great Manny Coto, to address a question that was
planted in fans' minds by the first three seasons of Enterprise, which
is why are these Vulcans such jerks?
From the very first episode, Broken Bow where Archer decides to take their
Warp Five ship, the Enterprise on its first mission ahead of schedule,
the Vulcans are naysaying the entire way going, no, it's too early.
You shouldn't go.
You're gonna make a mess out there.
You don't know what you're gonna stumble into.
Throughout the first seasons of Enterprise, the Vulcans are constantly
patronizing overseers, puppet masters, a controlling influence on Earth's
exploration out into the galaxy.
And as I've read, fans at the time took exception to this, that before
this, what we knew of Vulcans is that generally they were genial types
who, served as a first officer of a starship or worked with B'Elanna
Torres in engineering and generally they were at worst, harmless nerds.
At best, they were our favorite characters in the series in which
they appeared in Spock's case.
And suddenly, here in Enterprise, the Vulcans are basically the antagonists.
They are pushing back against everything our protagonists are trying
to do, questioning it, undermining it, predicting their downfall and
causing us to second guess ourselves.
And fans were upset that color was used to paint the brush of Vulcan society.
And here in this three parter in season four, Manny Koto
said there's a reason for that.
And let me tell you this story.
Vulcan had lost its way.
And this, the High Council revealed in the final moments of that third episode
having an influence of the Romulans behind the scenes, leading them astray.
V'Las, the puppet master is Emperor Palpatine level evil.
By the end, he's shouting at people and holding people at gunpoint and snarling
orders into the comms over a table that shows the moving forces on a map
that he is planning evil deeds with.
So they lean fully over the edge and go, these people are so evil,
there's no way for them to come back.
And then it turns out the Syrannites who are the kind Vulcans, the logical Vulcans,
Rob: Pacifists.
Kevin: the Vulcans who are still connected to the peaceful teachings of Surak,
they are the Vulcans that we know and love and led by T'Pau who incidentally,
speaking of Spock and T'Pring, oversees Spock and T'Pring's severance
of their nuptial vows in Amok Time.
She's the crotchety old lady in the throne that gets carried in by servants.
Rob: She looked really good in Enterprise.
Kevin: She did quite, a bit better.
The way like they were paying attention to detail everywhere they could, even on
a shoestring budget, here in season four.
The way she does a mind meld on Archer with a very distinctive,
like finger hooked under the chin.
That is exactly how T'Pau did it in Amok Time.
And it was like, wow, she is a stern Vulcan.
She gives the painful mind melds.
She gives the mind melds you don't wanna get.
Rob: I did notice that I was there going, she's doing it a very
unique way because it's normally just on the front of the face.
And to have that tie in, that's very good work.
Tip of the hat to Manny Coto for getting that in there.
Yeah.
And some interesting stuff that was connected to this week's episode of
Strange New Worlds, it sounds silly saying it out loud, but it makes sense
in the show, the nasal suppressants.
Kevin: Yes, yes, Yes indeed.
Well established by Enterprise and T'Pol.
Rob: Because human beings are so pungent in their smell that Vulcans
need to learn how to literally suppress their smell so they aren't
just disgusted with that human stench.
And that was brought back in with
Kevin: line, speaking of Strange New Worlds making Star Trek better in
hindsight, that is something like that element that T'Pol was holding
her nose every day she served on Enterprise in that series at the time,
like that never really played for me.
Like they established it and it just made me uncomfortable because
I watched every episode going, she's got, she's having a terrible time.
She either, is smelling these humans that she can't stand or she's
taking nasal suppressants so she can't smell or taste anything.
It was it was uncomfortable.
I think it was there to establish her alienness in some way, or to establish
her early at the start of her arc that she almost literally looked down
her nose at humanity, but by the end was choosing to, to be a member of
Starfleet and a member of that crew.
Like I can see what they were going for there, but in reality it just
made me uncomfortable for her because I was like, yeah, on your best
day, everything reeks at your work.
Rob: Oh.
Kevin: And so there was never a moment in Enterprise where I was
like, oh yeah that's a payoff.
I enjoy that, now.
But here in one line, Spock, he smells his armpits and goes, do I smell more human?
And I laughed for, I laughed for, all of that set up in of
Enterprise, like suddenly all of that paid off in that one moment of
Ethan Peck smelling his underarms.
And I was like, it's better.
It's now better than it was.
Rob: I totally agree.
So yeah, I focused on those episodes.
I really they added more to the canon of Star Trek and just definitely to the
Vulcans, they needed to go through this to get to the species we all know and
love in the original series, which is as we know, a hundred years from now.
Kevin: So what this series of episodes did, there are few versions
of Vulcans are jerks in my mind.
One is here, Vulcans are jerks because they have lost their way,
forgotten the teachings of Surak.
They're power hungry, fear driven, Romulan influenced, evil villains.
That's one version of Vulcans being jerks.
But there's a bit of a second version, which is the Vulcans are racist jerks.
And that even in the Syrannites here, where T'Pau says she's
going to do the ritual to extract Surak's Katra from Captain Archer,
whether he agrees to it or not.
And she is not about to let the future of her people be at risk for the life of one
human, she says with a, like revulsion.
Even our good Vulcans here, in Enterprise, they look down on humanity.
They, they see them as lesser.
And that is something that is the color I think that is strongest in Vulcans
are jerks this week in Charades.
That you get the strong sense, although it is never said out loud that Chapel
is being rejected not for her skills or for the fact that she paraphrased
Korby's rules of Xenoarcheology.
She's being rejected because she's human and Vulcans are racist.
Rob: Yeah, and you definitely see that, how is it for Amanda Grayson living in a
culture that hates her and they hate her purely just because of, that she's human,
not for anything about her as a person.
And in, in that episode Charades in the episode we just did, they
are outwardly racist to her, like the undermining comments.
It's not like out and saying we hate you, because that's not what racists do.
But just the turn of phrase, the slight, emphasis on a certain word or implying
things, it was just, hits so much deeper.
And it is, you can see it's a racist culture.
And the third point to you is they can be this way, they can be racist, or they can
be, just really good baseball players and and treat the other team like, inferiors.
Kevin: If you weren't gonna say it, I was, Rob.
Why don't you take us out to the holosuite for a second and remind us
of what happened to Benjamin Sisko.
Rob: Yes.
So it is an episode that we have focused on before when we did
do I think it was oh, break.
Yeah, it was episodes that it was either holodeck episodes or it was
an episode talking about changing the palette when it's all a bit harsh.
Anyway it's basically an excuse for Sisko to finally play some
baseball or be involved in a baseball game cause he loves it so much.
He has a run in with a former colleague within the Federation who is of
course a, a Vulcan who say we're stronger, we're faster, we're better,
and we can beat you in anything.
Kevin: This is Captain Solok, in Take Me Out to the Holosuite, which is season
seven, episode four of Deep Space Nine.
Rob: So we're right at the pointy end of the Dominion War.
This captain runs a ship only with Vulcans, the entire crew is Vulcans.
And so they challenge there, there was a challenge for a baseball game where
despite the fact that Vulcans are more intelligent, faster, and better athletes
the ragtag band of Deep Space Niners get together and with their heart, with their
heart, Kevin, they give Rom a go and Rom even though they don't win the game,
they win the spirit of what's important.
The winner today was baseball.
Kevin: They score one point and celebrate and Captain Solok's like you
manufactured victory where none existed and this, you're right, to me, is a
third version of Vulcans being jerks.
Whereas Vulcans can just be too serious, man.
They can be implacable, unfazable.
There is a sense that they will never admit they are wrong.
They will instead bend logic to their needs to prove themselves right, even
when they are otherwise in the wrong.
And that version of Vulcans being jerks, Vulcans not admitting when they're wrong.
Is like a strong one.
Rob: And how they get easily frustrated by human behavior to the point where,
Sisko gets kicked out because he touches Odo, which you don't do,
you don't touch the ref, the umpire.
And the Vulcan does the exact same thing and the joy on Odo's
face, he goes, You're outta here!
But the Vulcans in this episode in particular look like more Vulcan.
They have a bit of makeup added in, so they're a bit paler,
a bit, a little bit greener.
The all the hair is the same cut and design.
So when we go to Enterprise, we've got different hairstyles.
We've got the bowl cut, but we've also got the scraggly down hair,
the Anakin Skywalker haircut.
But in take me out to the holosuite, they are definitely all uniform in
their appearance and more alien in
Kevin: Yeah.
In service of the story, of
Rob: Very much so.
So, yeah, I did get a little Deep, Space Nine in there no matter what.
Thank you.
What about you?
What's a Star Trek episode where Vulcans are such jerks?
Kevin: Look I saw these three versions that, that Vulcans can be jerks because
in Enterprise they lost their way.
They can be jerks because they're racist.
They can be jerks because they are unfeeling monsters who
never admit they're wrong.
And I was like, where does the all of this come from?
So reminded by the presence of Amanda and the conspicuous absence of Sarek
In this week's Strange New Worlds, I went back to Journey to Babel the
original series season two, episode 15, in which we meet Spock's parents.
This is an episode where the Enterprise is ferrying a bunch of delegates to
a meeting on a planet called Babel.
They're deciding whether a new applicant to the Federation will get
admission into the Federation or not.
And all of these delegates, Tellarites, Andorians, Vulcans, short men
painted gold, all sorts of aliens are onboard the Enterprise and they
all have strong different opinions.
One of the Tellarite delegation gets murdered in the hallways.
Captain Kirk gets attacked by a Andorian who turns out not
to be Andorian, he's a spy.
But Kirk gets stabbed in the back in the hallway.
But against this backdrop of interstellar politics, the thing that has our greatest
attention is these two new characters visiting the ship, Amanda and Sarek,
who are introduced first as delegates.
And then when Kirk says Spock, while we're around Vulcan, did you wanna
beam down and visit your parents?
And Spock goes, captain, these are my parents, the original awkward family
reveal from Spock that set the pattern for all future awkward family reveals.
Yeah.
And it, it is in this one that it is established that Spock does,
has not spoken to his father.
This is the episode that prevents Sarek from appearing in episodes
like Charades this week, in Strange New Worlds, canonically.
It's interesting what watching it this week, there was actually, the wording
is open to some some interpretation.
It is Amanda who says it is this disagreement that Sarek is upset
that Spock chose to leave the Vulcan Science Academy and apply to Starfleet
instead, dedicate himself to a career in Starfleet, it is this bad blood
that has quote prevented Spock and Sarek from speaking to each other
as father and son for eight years.
Rob: Let's get creative.
Kevin: Now, speaking to each other as father and son is one thing.
So I think there is room if they wanted to have them appear on screen
together in a professional, forced, teeth gritting sort of capacity.
Rob: Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be great to see that.
James Frain plays Sarek in Discovery.
He's a wonderful character actor.
He's been around for years doing a lot of sci-fi fantasy slash genre TV and stuff.
British actor moved to America.
And his work with Michael in their scenes together was some
of the best stuff of Discovery.
Kevin: Yeah, there, there is nothing that's wrong with that version of Sarek
that wasn't just wrong with Discovery.
Like all the problems I have with Sarek in Discovery are Discovery
story problems, not Sarek problems.
I would love to have him back.
Rob: And that would be a great moment of tension to see that, a
father and son talking pure business and the family dynamic underneath.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Looking back, this is that third version of Vulcans being jerks.
Both Spock and Sarek in Journey to Babel are doing that thing where they
neither of them is willing to admit they're wrong, and they both use
logic to justify their points of view.
And Amanda is caught between them.
In this episode, Sarek in a foreshadowing of what we would see of him in The Next
Generation where he has that illness where like it's a degenerative mental illness
and he ends up mind melding with Picard in order to get through a negotiation,
and it is very powerful stuff.
But way back here in his first appearance and only appearance in
the original series, Sarek is also stricken with an illness, in this
case it is a cardiac affliction.
And the surgery to repair it requires vast amounts of Vulcan blood.
And Spock is the only person aboard who has compatible blood of course.
So it's that thing of will the son act as donor for his
estranged father to save his life.
Of course he will, but when Kirk gets injured, Spock assumes command
and says, look, I know my father's dying, but I'm in command here.
I'm not allowed to relinquish command just to save my father's life, so I'm gonna
be responsible and stay in this seat.
That, that moment of pure rational logic of I am right,
you can't convince me I'm wrong.
You just think I'm wrong because you are emotional.
That is basically what Spock says to his own mother, and she
slaps him in the face for it.
So Spock is, along with just all the other Vulcans out there, Spock can be a jerk
at times too, and was right back here in Journey to Babel in the original series.
Rob: Awesome.
Awesome stuff.
Yes, obviously Mark Leonard impressed.
Long live the father of Spock.
And he came back and in the movies,
Kevin: Much more memorable in the movies and in TNG I love Sarek, like
how much of him we got it, like it is so little but how much he did like
the lasting legacy of that character from so little I really admire.
Rob: Yeah, his work in the movies is incredible.
That was my first taste of Mark Leonard and to bring him back from
the original series is outstanding and his work, especially in Star
Trek III and IV is wonderful.
Kevin: So yeah, there you go.
There are many kinds of Vulcans being jerks.
They can be misled by Romulans.
They can be space racists.
can be just unwilling to admit when they're wrong.
Rob: They just, they make baseball unfun.
So many layers to the Vulcans.
Thank you so much for this little exploration into the
depth of Vulcan culture.
Kevin: Thank you, Rob.
I enjoyed it a great deal.
Rob: We are.
We'll be back next week with another episode of Strange New Worlds.
We can't wait to see where that leads us to, and we're getting
closer and closer each week to the crossover we've all been wanting.
Kevin: See around the galaxy.
Rob: We send a thought to Manny Coto's family.
And uh, stay strong actors and writers out there.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.
We can wait for a little more Star Trek.
You make sure you're getting what you need to pay the bills in order to
make this show that we love so much.
Rob: Stay strong.