Matt: Killer Diller.
Everybody loves filler.
Hello, Alison.
Alison: Hi, Matthew.
Matt: How are you this week?
Alison: Oh, I'm just ducky.
I've missed you in the past couple of weeks.
We've
Matt: yeah.
Alison: All over the place.
Matt: Yeah, sick.
And elsewhere.
Alison: Sick.
And then Wisconsin.
Matt: Sick and then Wisconsin.
Yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Matt: I have to say, after much thought, I still cannot recommend COVID.
I just can't do it.
I don't think it's ready for, I don't think it's ready for adult use.
Alison: This jelly?.
Matt: It's not ready for this jelly.
Alison: Well, I'm glad you're back.
And can continue on mic.
Matt: Me too.
Let me too.
Yeah.
So welcome to ADHd20.
Where are we talk about ADHD?
And D&D, Dungeons and Dragons two great tastes that we think.
Alison: Tastes great together.
Matt: Um,
Alison: we going to talk about today?
Matt: We have a few things that we want to talk about.
Alison, I think we should roll to see who talks next.
Alison: I was going to say the same thing.
Cause we each have these kind of bigger topics that we brought to the table today.
And why don't we do a little roll off for it.
Let's do it.
Here we go!
Matt: And a one and a two
oh,
Alison: How'd you do?
Matt: Six.
Alison: I won with an 11.
Matt: Nice.
Nice.
Okay.
Alison: All right.
So I guess we're off to the races on celebrating a feat of mine.
And that is just a few days ago, I DM'd a full session for the first time.
So I have done some practice sessions with Matt and Evan and our friend Fitz..
Had to kind of like worm my way, wiggle my way into the world of of DM-ing.
But a couple of months ago, some friends approached me because I've been talking
about Dungeons and Dragons so much.
And we're like, All right.
we're going to, we're going to listen to you.
we wanna play Dungeons and Dragons.
Will you DM for us?
Matt: Quick side note.
But two things.
Number one, you're you have a natural knack for it.
And that was apparent even in your very first moments, putting something
together, you have that, like that ease of speaking, that, it's good for business.
It's good for podcasting.
It's good for other things.
So, I am not surprised that Friday went well.
Secondly, darn it.
There it is perfect.
Let's see.
Hold on.
Yeah, I can bring it back.
I can bring it back.
Secondly, what was the other thing that you said.
Alison: That some friends approached me because I had been talking about.
Matt: Yes.
Thank you.
Alison: Okay,
Matt: Short term memory.
Alison: Hold on to that, Mattie.
Matt: That's a part of ADHD folks.
That is.
Short-term memory is not known.
Anyway, before I forget again.
What I was going to say is, last podcast you mentioned that
you have been evangelizing.
This game.
Up and down the world.
So I'm really, really psyched and delighted to hear that it
was not in vain and that you pulled some people into a game.
Alison: I pulled some people right on in.
Shout out to my first, official crew and with the exception of Fitz who
joined that game, all new people for me to play with, which is a
different experience altogether.
When I've only played with this little bubble this whole time,
these past two years and change.
So Megan and Amy and Charity and Brooks and Fitz.
Thank you for being my first babies.
And what an adventure it was.
So, yeah, Megan and Amy are the two that approached me and said, you've
been talking, we've been listening.
We want to play Dungeons and Dragons.
Will you DM for us?
And I was with them, man, in the that first part of that sentence until
they got to the, will you be our DM?
Then it was like, I'm not...
qualified.
Ready.
And I got to give it up to the DMS of the world, especially the ones sitting
on camera right in front of me right now.
Mr.
Matt Bivins.
DM-ing is a lot of fricking work, a lot, so much.
And, um, yeah,
it was, I was hesitant, A) because I didn't know what I was doing.
And two, because I know how much work it is.
The name of the game is "Yes, and" so I, yes, and-ed that.
I pulled in a Charity as a friend that had just, replied to a couple of my
Instagram stories along the way that she was interested in playing D&D someday.
Brooks is a friend that I've known since third grade and, he is a D&D player.
And so he and I, have volleyed on social media as well that we, Hey,
we should play together sometime.
So I pulled him in.
and then I knew, so when I was learning how to become a D&D player, what helped
me was being with really good D&D players.
And so that was Evan and Fitz.
And so I.
pull in Fitz because I was like, I need, if we have newbies, I need a
player that can show them how it's done.
I think it went extremely well.
I had fun, at least, I guess you'll have to ask the others, but they were
certainly nice and complimentary.
But yeah, it was very interesting.
You know, even though I was excited about it and even though we'd had the date
on the calendar for months, naturally I waited until the very last minute.
Matt: Oh, yeah.
Alison: I had selected the module that we were going to
use, and then I got some lessons.
I got one of my friends from my Thursday game to like, teach
me how to use Roll20 as a DM.
Also months ago, and then I just didn't put all the pieces together.
I'm sorry to anybody listening to this until, the days before
the adventure was to begin.
Which feels pretty on brand.
Matt: It's super on-brand.
It's super incredibly on brand.
And.
Yeah, I, um,
Alison: Say it Matt.
Matt: No, I, it is, Here's the best thing about working with my coach.
That there is absolute validation you cannot fight that you can't
fight that with our brains.
You can't, it doesn't matter how much passion you have.
Which I, I have all the passion for this.
I think the only way that I would be more prepared for You know, every
week's game, is if I did this full time.
Right.
and even then I might be preparing for other people's games.
I don't know.
But You know, you get points for showing up.
You get points for sitting down.
The best thing we can do is try to minimize the stress.
So my question was, you mentioned Roll20 and, what you had to use
because you weren't playing live right?
And, yeah.
Any other tools that you found?
Certainly when you're first beginning, Dungeon Master prep is.
It is very strenuous.
I hope for every player of the game to Dungeon Master at least one game.
Like seriously to put it together.
Just to understand.
To the point where I have become a disciple of Mike Shea, The Lazy Dungeon
Master, to try to pare down my prep time and really try to focus it to its core.
So I was wondering if there were any tools that particularly helped you with that.
Alison: It's funny because I have The Lazy Dungeon Master and the workbooks.
All.
Matt: You haven't read it.
Alison: On my Kindle..
I haven't read it yet.
Matt: That's awesome.
Alison: I'm not doing this on purpose I swear, it was
Matt: That's why this podcast, that's why this podcast works, man.
That is why it works.
It just, you would really think it wouldn't work.
Okay.
Alison: And I know.
When I first, it was like, I'm going to DM.
Matt how do I DM?
What do I do?
I just, I wish that every single one of you guys who DMs, would
just show me your notes, man.
That's hard for you because you and I play every game together.
So you'd like, That would be a major spoiler if I saw your stuff, but
I Just want to see how you do it.
Cause I don't know if I'm doing it right.
So here's what I did.
I, you know, you have the story
And it comes, you know, with its maps and there's both like the DM's version
and the player's version of the maps.
And so I started by crawling through all of those and getting to know its
recommended NPCs and all the baddies.
And then I just opened up a Dropbox paper, blank sheet.
And started writing, you know?
I try to use like a series of if this is in italics, then I'm supposed
to read it aloud as is, if this is bolded, then this is, some kind of
information or instruction that I needed to convey to players when they
reach these certain points in a story.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: D&D Beyond gives you these four kind of free modules when you buy
Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and you could just lift them straight out and
read them as is and take people on this adventure, but you know, that's boring.
So I had to make it complicated and add my own NPCs.
So I'd done a little Session Zero with Megan and Amy and Charity, and, had gotten
to know their characters a little bit.
And Brooks had sent me this long, beautiful write-up on his character
and had clearly put a lot of thought into what he was coming in with.
So I had tried to figure out, you know, how these would all come together.
And then the Fitz was the outlier.
I gave her a little bit more information.
I basically positioned her as the guide for the party.
So I told her just enough, like basically when we play, this
name will mean something to you.
I didn't tell her what it was, but that she, she would say
like, oh yes, I recognize that.
And so it's very funny, cause whenever I prep, it's very detailed at the
beginning with a lot of things I'm supposed to just read and then it just
gets less and less detailed as you go, because you know, that's, when
players are going to come in and don't spend hours writing these encounters.
Cause they're just going to go off the rails immediately.
Matt: And that's really the only thing that I really could tell anyone.
That is a lesson that you can not learn until you're a Dungeon Master.
You cannot learn.
Just do it.
Number one.
Number two, you cannot guess what your players are going to do.
You can not guess.
You could prepare for hours.
We played on Monday and I had prepared for all manner of things to happen.
And the players bypassed every single thing.
Totally fine.
That's what you're supposed to do.
That's your prerogative, right?
So that's why Mike Shea is so brilliant.
He's certainly not alone.
Everybody says this, that knows what they're talking about.
You just don't want to prep too much.
At least not for one thing.
Now I'm imagining Matt Mercer is so organized.
And is paid so well.
That he literally can go and build a map and write flavor text for every
single thing, just in case they walk in.
And then he's incredible improviser on top of that, which means.
You've got every base covered, but if you don't, if you're not Matt
Mercer, which you're not, no one is.
And except for him.
Then yeah, you really just have to be okay with winging it sometimes.
Alison: The whole reason this adventure exists is to essentially get the
characters to go on this like swamp crawl.
To find this lost mage.
So we get into like the Lord of the land's tent and, you know, he
propositions these adventurers.
And they're at first, like, nah.
Matt: And you're like,
Alison: I have nothing.
If you don't do this, I have nothing for you.
Matt: Did you, have to say that.
Alison: I basically had to offer them enough gold.
I didn't want to railroad, you know, But I'm like, but no,
you ha you have to go on this.
You have to go find this mage.
have to.
Matt: I got it.
Alison: And I did have to have the same conversation with each player that you've
had to have with me several times of: Listen, I'm not going to try and kill you.
That's not my goal.
I don't.
If you die, I don't have a reason to play.
I want you to live and do bad ass things.
That is my goal as dungeon master to facilitate encounters.
Not death.
And so I did have to up the ante on the gold amount offered.
So I think lesson that I've learned there, just if you're paying attention
and you've never dungeon mastered before.
If you're offering a bounty to players.
Does not matter what the text says, the bounty is low ball.
Just start low don't come out of the gate at 200 gold.
Tell them you'll pay them 25 and then let the madness take place in the
bartering and the exchanging of ideas.
Matt: That that kind of could be applied to anything in life.
Alison: Anything.
Just come in low.
On their adventure.
So it was a lot of fun.
I definitely in the moment, ADD or not, got overwhelmed, and
that's a big thing is learning.
Like Matt Mercer and the cast of Critical Role.
They know their audience is captive.
They know we're going to hang on what they have to say.
And there they can take all the time they want and we're still going to watch.
I don't quite have that luxury yet.
So it's like, how do we keep a pace that's intriguing and interesting,
but also own the moment and take the time to give the descriptions
and, fill the spaces with ideas and.
I'll get better at that,
Matt: I think.
I think that's one of the hardest parts for me and I'm still learning.
How, how long have we been playing?
Alison: We have been playing since March of 2020, and it
is now almost June of 2020.
Matt: so
two years, later, two two years later, I still, that is
still an enormous challenge.
It is pacing.
and, that balance of being prepared and letting go and trusting people and
finding the rhythm and not trying to fill every every moment with stuff and.
Alison: That's one note I made to myself.
I did a little journal write up afterwards, next time, like when
they come into an area of the swamp, describe the area baddie steps out.
Don't just say the name of it, but what is it?
What is terrifying about it?
How big is it?
what does it smell like?
Matt: Along those lines I've been looking into this website called "dScryb".
D S C R Y B.com.
I don't know whether it's the thing, but I go back and forth with,
whenever I do have flavor texts to read whenever I do have, you know,
Alison: Is that an official term, by the way, flavor
Matt: I think it is.
Yeah, I think it is.
I know that as an actor, I can read it and not sound super.
I mean, y'all can obviously tell when I'm reading and when I'm not,
but you can make it come alive.
Right.
And so I was thinking, gosh, these people at Dscryb what they do is they
just write flavor text for everything.
Alison: I'm on the website right now.
See.
The ADHD in me, you've given me a new thing?
and now I'm playing on this.
Matt: I haven't bitten the bullet yet, but I've definitely looked at it.
The writing is great.
And to have this cavalcade of writers and they.
And they just, describe things, which is really fun.
So it's like goblin.
And you've just spit out this fun description of a goblin.
So that's an idea.
And I wonder, what I wonder is in the context is.
For me because my brain is already on the next thing.
And it's difficult enough for me to actually speak the stuff in my brain
when I'm just living my life day to day.
Would it be helpful to have that kind of centering.
I do have sort of a relaxed feeling when I get to a flavor
text box, you know, I kind of go.
Okay, this is centering me, it's describing it for them.
It actually is part of the game.
I wonder if at least at the beginning of your DM career, your GM career.
I wonder if it, at least at the beginning, until you get to a
point where it is just eloquent.
Then maybe DScryb is the way to go..
Alison: So I just, I hit up DScryb, I typed in cave entrance, and then I went
to the free tab and these are great.
You see a small cave entrance.
Its arched appearance seems too uniform to be natural.
Inside, the cave floor quickly descends into darkness.
A strong musty smell comes from within, and the faint echo
of water reaches your ears.
If I could just burp that out instead of having to think that out.
Oh man.
Now I want to give you one to read.
Pick a baddie.
Matt: Um, Okay, here we go.
Here we go.
The draconic form wriggles.
Heaving its reptilian body from its newly broken shell with a wet tearing sound.
Sticky fluids ooze from the shell as the beast takes its first unfettered breaths.
And then moves clumsily as it learns to walk.
It's gaze roams the surrounding area and its nostrils flare.
Testing the air for signs of food or danger.
It raises its head when the scent of fresh blood and viscera fills the air.
Its jaws already slathered with slime.
And its eyes shining with a hunger not yet sated.
That's dragon hatching out of its shell.
By DScryb.
Alison: So there it is.
we have helped the masses listening to this podcast.
DScryb you heard it.
if making descriptions and talking, improvising, freaks you the hell
out, ADHD driven or otherwise.
Find a tool, man.
That's what this is about.
Just find the tools that you
Matt: a
Alison: to get the job done.
Matt: That was my question too, was just tools.
And so I shared, I ended up sharing a tool for you and I, yeah.
Speaking of tools.
May I segue into my portion or are you.
Alison: I was actually about to ask, I think now it's your turn to
Matt: So here's the struggle that I've had.
That I have as a human being.
Is that I love tools.
I love creating and I love tools and I sometimes I get
distracted by one or the other.
You are right, I absolutely did fall in love instantly with Elyse Myers.
And one of her, one of her little, shorts was.
It was just like her typing in something and it said.
Should I learn this new tool?
No.
Am I going to do it anyway?
Yes.
Uh, And that's me, that's the story of my life.
So I kind of vacillate back and forth from, okay, how agnostic can I make
this versus how can I use a tool that really does actually help me right.
And.
I've got this coach that kind of helps me with this tool obsession.
But technology is never going to stop.
And it's always going to be enticing, always going to be amazing.
And it's always going to help just a little bit, right.
Like DScryb, and, the problem with that is we started playing the game virtually.
There has been no other option.
I have never.
Since I was 10, I've not played live.
We're going to change that in a few weeks.
Which I'm super psyched about, but I have to change my way of
playing for that weekend, right.
Because I don't actually don't know how to do it.
And so I kind of go back and forth and I want to get to the place where the
majority of my prep is in one place.
The majority of my thinking is in one place.
And then I can just export it to the tools that I need for the situation.
and I think that the times that it starts to break down is what I'm trying to find
that balance of tools and focus right.
Um, Because.
People with ADHD do have a focus difficulty at times, and it's
really just what to focus on.
And so if I spend dear sweet prep time trying to lock down making combat
easier in Foundry Virtual Tabletop.
Then the game story suffers a bit, right?
Then sometimes I will know exactly every NPC's middle name.
But then we get in and combat is super broken, because I'm not prepared
with how to make it happen live.
I've been going down this path, taking stock on all the things about
Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, 5E.
That have not felt right to me after two years.
I know that a lot of this is because there are hipsters now that play
role-playing games and they call them OSR.
It's an old school revival, Renaissance
And what it is they're going back to the original tomes the Gary Gygax
TSR era, the red box, the, different writers, different editions, and
they get super hardcore about it.
But I will say it was a different game back then.
It was a very different game.
And there's so, so, so many things about 5E that I really love more.
I love the relative simplicity of it.
I love the focus on backgrounds and role-playing and
storytelling and the, size of it.
And I love the community of it, which of course we didn't have back then.
But there's a few things that I feel like to get to simplicity, they
took some things away that I miss.
There's an edginess, there's a grittiness, I think that 5E does not have.
And you just touched on one where your friend Brooks spent days
and days creating a character.
We wouldn't have done that back then.
Because death happened really often.
sometimes you would like build two characters just in
case one died in a session.
I'm not kidding.
Alison: This is what is the word I'm looking for?
Antithetical to what we were saying earlier with I'm a dungeon master.
It's not my goal to kill you.
Yes, it is because dying is is too hard.
Matt: I know.
I know.
I love that.
I love that, but it's not really specifically death, and I want
to reiterate it wasn't the dungeon master killing people.
It was just that the game really was dungeons, and, there weren't even
that many dragons until Dragonlance.
Seriously until Dragonlance there weren't even that many dragons.
And so it was like dungeon after dungeon.
I mean, that's what you did.
And that was plenty fun.
You know, and I think things started to open up and change
when Dragonlance came out.
And that's when I really started loving the game.
So what that says to me is that 5E is my jam.
The new versions are my jam.
I've said before I tried 4E and it was very complicated.
My point with all this is just to say that there's some things that I do miss.
There's an, there is a stakes that I find missing sometimes,
especially in combat, right?
And you'll find this as a dungeon master that as your characters get
more powerful you can't challenge them.
It's so difficult to challenge y'all.
I'm not joking and in order to challenge you, you have to be 10 times more
focused on, on a vampire's legendary actions, you have to know so much more.
And so what I guess what I'm trying to say is everybody wants to start at third level
and they want to go until 20th level.
Right.
And the sweet, sweet, sweet spot is like five to 10, right?
Like you really start rocking, but your characters are just, they're just like,
the Avengers and they're unstoppable and there's so many little things and turns go
on for forever because it's this and that.
And also this, and this is my reaction and this is my bonus.
And it's like 50,000 points of damage.
And you're like, oh, wow.
Strahd just died, that was the whole point of this game and he's dead.
So, um, I've been thinking of.
How to both simplify, combat.
And make everything feel like good grief.
There is a hoard of skeletons coming.
We are really overwhelmed.
Are we going to live through this?
Now, again, my job is to not let you die.
I get that.
But I still want to make the players fear death.
So they're really going to pull out every stop that they can.
And then they're going to give the Dungeon Master as much as they
can, and they're going to be super ready to rock in any situation.
Does that make sense?
Alison: It does.
And it doesn't in other ways.
And so I hear you.
And I think that these are frustrations that may be unique to DM-ing because
I will tell you as a player, I have never once in two years, sometimes
playing D&D three, four times a week.
I have never once been in a combat that I thought lasted too long.
I have never once watched Critical Role and thought this
combat is lasting too long.
It goes back to what I was saying earlier with those who are
professionals and have the confidence that those of us that aren't are
still building is take the space.
Own the moment.
When somebody is really good at public speaking.
They're not worried about what the audience thinks about
their gaps and their pauses.
They're going to take the time they need to think through what they want to say.
And maybe the audience.
Just thinks that they're pausing for effect, right?
They're not worried about you.
And so it's interesting.
to me, cause I know you and I have talked about this subject at length,
but I don't know that I connected the dots until today that it was about your
feeling, fear, whatever you want to call it, that combat takes too long.
I've gotten better at role-playing and enjoying.
Cause remember when we first started, man, I was all like fight fight fight fight.
I did not wanna do any role play.
And I think I've got a little bit less chaotic six year old boy about it.
But I still love it.
It's still my favorite thing.
I.
Maybe I am sometimes disappointed when I don't get a combat in sessions.
but I'm never disappointed if the combat takes too long.
I love Critical Role episodes where the entire episode is combat.
So this almost fixation on how do we shorten combat I'm
like, what are you doing?
That is, that's why we do that.
Even though all the other stuff is fun, too.
And I promise I like it.
So just think about
Matt: You could be on to something about the DM and you could also be
onto something about Virtual play.
Because as a DM, what I see is everybody checking their email.
When it's not their turn.
Alison: Fair.
Matt: I know you're checking your email.
I know you are or whatever.
I know you're doing something else.
There's no, I've done it.
it's natural.
It's right there.
You're not, not going to do it.
and that does erode confidence.
I mean, people in Critical Role are doing it.
They're talking, they're checking their phones or doing this stuff.
To me, that just means everything's taking too long.
It just feels like it's taking too long.
I, I can either, like maybe you have to try to turn y'all off to,
not have that thing, because I just want, I want that engagement.
I know that we have engagement when we're having a role-playing thing.
And combat just starts to feel like a.
Alison: But maybe our brains like maybe for a second, because I've been
in the weeds with the role-playing and the combat, and now it's not my turn.
Maybe I need that second just to be like, oh wait, what did
that person put on Instagram?
I have tried to be better about putting my phone away away.
Cause I know that I can be very easily distracted and that can be not good.
So I'm not trying to make excuses for that part, but like sometimes.
It is nice to just be like what?
Okay, great.
Now I'm back.
And it doesn't mean that I'm bored, upset, don't love everything that's going on
or want the person who's having their moment in the spotlight not to have it.
Like, take your moment.
and I think that's everything I'm building towards.
But I hear you.
We can do better job of focusing and those who are really good at combat
are good at like setting others up for their turns, being aware of who I need
to be giving some kind of buff to.
So yeah, we can get better at that.
Matt: I hear you.
I hear you.
This has been very helpful to me to discuss these things because
it's an interesting thing and it actually helps to know that
people are not bored with combat.
I think though, that we can work together to make it as engaging
as the role-playing stuff.
That's, that is now my challenge.
I'm going to figure it out.
Alison: We learned so much.
We think we know it all about each other.
And then we come together and it's like, wait, what?
what?
Matt: Um, well, this was a fun podcast.
Alison: I agree.
Okay, thanks for doing it with me.
Matt: Thank you for doing this with me.
This is number five four!
Alison: Six.
Matt: Oh, my God.
This is number 45.
Love it.
Alison: This is the podcast that doesn't
Matt: um, um, yeah, everybody, if you want, please find
us and start conversations.
Full we'll, find ways that you can start conversations with,
because we want to know what y'all think about these things as well.
We'll find some sort of forum that you can speak to us in.
Alison that'll be Alison's job.
That's Alison we'll tell you, we'll put it in some kind of show note.
But until next week, Alison, I love you.
Thanks for with me.
Alison: Thanks.
Matt: Okay.
Ch-ch-ch-change!