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Hello and welcome to the counter narrative show. Thank you so much for joining us today. Our topic is grassroots community organizing. We are here with two, sorry, three, scholars and experts in the field of grassroots organizing. We are joined with namdi Lumumba. Namdi lamunda. Lumumba sorry is a founding member and current state organizer for the ujimas people Progress Party in the state of Maryland. He has been a low key sorry a local city candidate, and has been on the election campaign committee for several black independent candidates. He has spent 29 years as a revolutionary pan Africanist organizer working in black communities around the issues of police brutality, housing, education, economic development, reparations and social justice. Thank you so much for being here with us. We are also joined with Dr Daniels. Dr Kevin Daniels is a native inner city Baltimorean, and he grew up directly across the street from Thurgood Marshall home on Division Street. He is a professor at the historic Morgan State University and Episcopal. Sorry, Episcopal, senior pastor at St Martin Church of Christ in Baltimore. He also chairs the civic action committee ministers conference Baltimore and vicinity, and is a monthly op ed contributor to the historic Afro newspaper. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Really appreciate having you, and we are also joined with Dr Johnny Bailey. Dr Johnny Bailey is an interdisciplinary research and interdisciplinary researcher and a teacher. He is a specialist in the 20th century us narrative, as well as the African American narrative and gender history. In addition, Dr Bailey has solid training in African diaspora history and transatlantic history. Dr Bailey successfully defended his dissertation, and that topic was as proud of our gayness as we are of our blackness, the political and social development of the African American LGBT community LGBTQ committee in Baltimore and in Washington, DC. Thank you all so much for joining this and having this very important conversation. I want to start it off, and I'm going to start it off, actually, with Dr Daniels, Dr dames. Can you tell us a bit about how you have come to this work around organizing. You also work at the historic Morgan State University, where you teach around organizing. And one of the things I appreciate and really knew that I wanted you to be part of this conversation is because you're one of the very few people that I have found that do not just theorize about the concept of organizing, you're also an active practitioner in that particular role. So can you speak to us a bit about how you come to that work.
Well, again, a lot of my work are probably older. Of course, I'm older. A lot of the people that inspired me growing up, definitely in Baltimore City, not only was Thurgood Marshall, but deeper than that, what really what inspired me as it relates to history is concerned, but also the Goon Squad, as a faith leader, community faith leaders that were not only just theologians, but they were public theologians and scholars in that regard, as it relates to not just scholars, but as it relates to civic action. And it not only did it propel me, because I grew up in a historic Trinity Baptist church right down the street from Union Baptist so history was just a part of, you know, my rearing and understanding just the historic nature of what a faith leader is really supposed to do. And with that being said, my whole social work career really pushed off by just being no understanding the history, but also being around some of the goon squad members as a kid, being able to watch home of favor, and all of them as he started the Urban Institute, Research Institute at Morgan State University. All of that because. Begin to shape my understanding and also my need to not just be someone that theorizes on theology, but also practice the work. And from there, as it relates to not just the Goon Squad you're talking about, I grew up right around the corner from the mosque, the Muslim mosque, all of that impacted my life, and the kind of work that they did not just in, not just in, I mean, you're talking about multi million dollar projects. As they pushed against Maryland National Bank, they pushed against some of the mayors of that time to be able to get not just the living wage, but college bound, all of that thing, all of that is a part of my growing up and my rearing to be able to understand our power and work towards that in a coalitional manner. And all of that has still set in. I'm still a part of some of those organizations. They've gone on to create, not only the IMA build and some of those other faith organizations, but now sharing the civic action at the minute historic ministers conference is not only an honor, but I've watched several of them grow up. So for me, it has shaped my understanding of the what we call the inverted pyramid, that corporate and government structure should not be over top of community, grassroots people, it is grassroots roots people that should be, that should decide the agenda of any city, particularly Baltimore City,
I know that's right, is I love, I love hearing you talk about it, because it's obviously that is very close and near and dear to you. And it's just like ingraining you, because it seemed like you were also born. You were also born, bred and like, just developed in the environment that was just like, ready, you know, to just kind of help to prime you for, for a lot of the for a lot of where you are now. We were
commanded to do it, and I'm still some of our elders are still alive. Some of them are still alive. And I'm, I'm I'm I have a it ain't a choice whether or not I was supposed to do organizing and civic action as we did for this, not only the we did a couple years ago in developing for the minister's conference, we said to churches right now. We say to churches right now, and I'm clear, faith based leaders, I'm very clear, you cannot be in Baltimore City and not know the communities that you serve and their agenda. The agenda of the church should parallel the agenda of that community, and or, or, and that is one of the reasons that's the challenges in Baltimore. And people that know me know that that is my passion, that is my fight. We have to, we just we are the Baltimore City is the fifth in regenfication, and we have to change that dynamic. And I love the brother that's talking about reparations, all of that we have to we have to coalition build. That is my research focus. Coalition building is when we ultimately go with other organizations to do this work together, put aside our differences, our ideologies, and begin to come together around a selective issues that's critical to all of us.
Thank you for that. Dr dames, next I want to go to Nnamdi Lumumba and really just the same question like, how did you come to the work that you do? And very specifically, because your work is there's this element of grassroots organizing, but there's also this. You're a state organizer for the Ujima people's Progress Party. So how did you come to that aspect of your work?
Yeah, so I guess really my initial introduction I was a student over at Morgan State, yes, sir, yes, right. I was a student at Morgan State. I was there when there was a student sit in back in the late 80s. Morgan had been underfunded for decades, and still, there's still shakeout ramifications for what that has meant for Coppin Morgan State and Bowie State, and the kind of, you know, the racism that really said that the resources weren't fairly evened out. And so I was just a student there, really, and caught up in the moment, to be honest, and quickly, I wanted to understand what was going on. What how do we get to this point when we're in a university that's supposed to be a higher education, and you realize when you get there, there's clearly, I mean, I remember my freshman year sitting in Holmes Hall, and there were pigeons right in the classroom because they couldn't close the doors. And Holmes Hall is supposed to be the centerpie. Because that's the image, the iconic image of the university. And so, you know, you get pulled into that. I wanted to understand why, what was going on. And I got a crash course in the systemic racism that happens all over even in this nice blue state of Maryland, and how things go down, it led me to start looking for political organization, political ideas. I recognized quickly from that that being organized and being in groups allowed us to have more power and more influence. I was able to, on campus, initially, get involved with study groups, the all African People's Revolutionary Party, which, at the time, one of the leaders were was Kwame Torre Stokely Carmichael, who was recently assaulted, you know, verbally, by President Clinton. But that kind of direction was clearly where I wanted to go. I ended up a member in the Uhuru movement, which was all up and down the East Coast, several chapters in the west coast as well. And that was where most of my political development happened, my engagement around reparations, fights, around police brutality, economic development, education, a lot of that, even economic, especially dealing with gentrification, a lot of that was where I got introduced. And because you're in partnership, and you're working nationally and internationally around those questions a quick, rapid development, you get pushed, obviously, to do do tasks at a higher level. When you're organized, you have, I think, as the brother said, it's very important to have a core of people older than you, elders, veterans. Veterans, not just because you can be old, but that'll mean, you know, a lot, to have veterans who understand what's required, who in their day to day sense of being, you learn how to what they call today self care, but in those days, they learned how to cope. I mean, we met people who was were survivors from the Black Panther Party, who was still active and never been pushed out. I got involved with the work to help free Eddie Conway decades before he was released. You know, I mean, these are the kind of forces who help you connect present to the past and how you move forward as an individual, how I would eventually become a parent, how eventually become a guidance to other new organizers in the work. After doing that kind of work, we were able to help with running our own independent candidates. And I think it's very important, because we have to, as a community, black working class people, have to define what is our agenda, right? And politics is nothing more than concentrated economics. We get all the fluff about democrat and republican and liberal and and conservative, it's really about what are your economic interests and being able to honestly grasp though, and then push forward an agenda, right? Sometimes that means you can get a candidate to agree to your agenda because of your pressure or what they think is your influence. Sometimes you have to produce your own platform and candidates and run those people that led us to about 10 years ago in Maryland, helping to create the concept of the Ujima people's Progress Party, which is an independent attempt to create an independent black workers led electoral party. We would be a third party, very similar to the Green Party and the Libertarian Party, and there are several others now here in Maryland, but it would give us an opportunity to not have to fight to get on the ballot, but allow us to have ballot access for what we would hope 1000s of black, brown and working class people to join that party, and for us to develop the kind of activists, organizers, politicians that we would like To see, not only because they would want to win, but what they do outside the electoral cycle is very, very important.
Thank you for that. I'm going to go over to some folks in the chat really quick before we get to our other speaker. You are watching the counter narrative show today's episode is grassroots, community organizing. Thank you for to everyone who who is watching. Bobby Holmes said, The Great Morgan State. HBCU, MSU. Ty Coleman said, agree, we won't survive without each other. Coalition building is essential. Uh, Michelle mile says that is so true. Brother, strong. Brother, strong. Church, she has a hashtag. Church, nor your know your community needs is the hashtag. Um, Melissa Erica said, Amen. Bobby Holmes said something earlier. Um, said. Said hello to Dr Daniels, and also said hello to brother Lumumba earlier. So same question, of course, to you. Dr Bailey, how did you come to this work?
Again? It's my time in Baltimore. Morgan, yes, sir. And I came by the world by meeting people who were involved not only in civil rights activism, also black power, feminism, queer rights and and I began to document and conduct oral history interviews for all the people who are involved in local grassroots movement in Baltimore and DC. And I think one word that kind of upside in me is co optation, and other times, like this past summer, the uprisings we saw in various cities the United States, particularly with the black community, many of them got frustrated because they believe that particularly white radicals, outside forces, particularly LGBTQ feminism, were contaminating this very remarkable uprising we saw this past summer, and I think a lot of people didn't realize. They don't understand what competition, also allyship, and also another word I want to point out is um, it's called um coalition building, and I think that um we, some of us, fail to grasp those particular important terms and how, how we need to study and understand these complex concepts to make better sense of our current Black Lives Matter movement, because black people, particularly some people in that community, are suspicious of Black Lives Matter movement, because if you go online, you look at the agenda, what the Movement wants for the black community, black people don't agree with some of the things they want to fight for, particularly some pan africanists believe that some issues such as LGBTQ rights, gender equality should not be at the top of the list, and also, ultimately, should not be a part of the larger black female legacy of black freedom struggles since 1625 when the House Virginia, House of burgees made it COVID, waste of slavery and regime. So I think, I think that we have to go into drum bird. And I think we saw this past summer, particularly people who were really were not on board much percent with the Black Lives Matter organization and all, because they believe that their agenda was not parity towards the legacy of black liberation, particularly United States. And I think there's some things that we have to scratch the surface of really dig deep and examine
right, definitely, especially when we learn about the piece, I feel like around coalition building, you spoke a bit about that connection in terms of, like, queer representation in that space. And I think one of the things in terms of coalition building to remember, too, is when people are, when people are practicing anti blackness, they are, they are not interested. You know, they don't necessarily care if how you necessarily care how your gender, what your sexual orientation is really important to have that aspect in common when we're talking about aspects of coalition building. Can I like to hear from Lumumba? Can you talk a bit about the differences between coalition or the necessity of coalition building? Because you do some coalition building, if I'm understanding correctly, with members of the Green Party and with some other folks when you are out there advocating and canvassing for particular candidates. So first, let's start with what exactly is, what it is we mean when we say coalition building, and why exactly is that important?
Yeah, so I think, and we try to build as broad a possible coalition as possible. And coalition building is the work that it takes behind the scenes to be able to bring different groups, different agendas, together around core questions that we can. Have principled unity around and coalitions, by their nature, to can should be very focused, unlike something, a word that often gets confused is alliances versus coalitions. Alliances tend to be long term. They have deeper connections to each other, and they're, you know, much longer commitments that each organization makes to be a part of Alliance. Coalitions really are looking at issues and different ways in which those partners all have a voice on that issue and recognizing together our united strength right against those who are decision makers or those who get in the way of that issue, we can all focus our efforts together, and it doesn't mean that we lose our uniqueness and the different styles that we use to push forward, but it does mean that we at least have some alignment and some collaboration that be able to make us stronger so we all get what we want out of that question. Okay,
so if I'm hearing you right, it's like you're basically for and moving towards that the same goal, but you still keep your own unique path to it, the own your own unique approach. Yes, I heard you identify something as a difference when you mentioned alliances, them being longer term, they probably have similar strategy. Can you speak to the word ally and what it means? And I'm and I'm really pretty I'm really interested in that word these days, because I see what I feel like is a lot of performative ally ship that isn't anything. So I'm just just to provide clarity around what does that exactly mean to be an ally?
Yeah, so of course, the word root is again, Alliance. I think one thing that's important is that for most people in this country, black, brown, working class, is that we've been miseducated. So there are a lot of things that we think we understand that we don't have real deep appreciation for, if any understanding. And when we use and some people tell ask us, Why are we allying with Latinos? Why are we allying with Africans from the continent? Or why are we allying with people LGBTQ? Because in their mind, there's never been anything good that comes out of quote, unquote allyship. The problem is, is that when history shows us that the United States, which is the leading capitalist, imperialist nation in the world, could have an alliance with Russia, which was the leading socialist, anti capitalist nation in the world, and they could sit down and have an alliance against Nazi Germany, right? Despite that ideological differences, right? That there is some need that people must have around allies ship that's important, and usually at the center of it is a shared, shared goals and objectives that drive you forward, right, and then that you agree to a long term commitment to make sure that you get that thing done. What we see in America when people call themselves allies, first of all, are people who don't come to you and say, What are the terms of my of the relationship? How are we both? How does this, how does this thing that we are attacking impact me? How does it impact you? And how when you resolve it, how will that impact me as well? Right? These are conversations. So because you don't have these real conversations, because people haven't dealt with the elements of being an ally, people declare themselves allies because they have their own agenda, and because they have their own agenda, they don't really care what your agenda is. They just attach themselves to you as long as it works for them, and when they get what they want, they can jump off and keep on going. And that is not what an alliance is. That's not even a coalition, right? You have to really struggle and work with each other and hold principle, which is the other part, because oftentimes, even in our black community, we call for unity, but unity can only hold when there's principle, when I can hold you accountable for your word and your commitment as you can hold me for my word and my commitment, right? And again, that does not mean we change who we are, but it does mean that we commit to some things that we lay down. And if you if you fall off track, we have a way to hold you, you know, to clearly say you are off track now that you need to come back. And that's
critical, what he just said, because when you at the basis of coalition building, number one is listening relationship building, but also being able, being able to move and to make sure that we understand relationship building and we can negotiate all of those kind of things so that we can be able to move together. It is the basis of coalition building. I'm hearing you tell me what your interests are. Time when I'm working with an organization, I like them to tell me, don't you ain't got to worry about my feelings. Tell me up front what your interest is. I'll. Last work that we did a year or so ago with the consent decree. Of course, we built, we went, had listening sessions throughout all of the 14 districts, and we met with millennials, we met with we met with LGBTQ. Everybody sat down and talked about what the issues were, what their self interests were. And again, based upon that, we built a coalition around, not only after that was over, by listening to people, we built we also came together around issues of public safety, issues of health, education, and also workforce and economic development and entrepreneurship, one of the things that's been created has been, I'm a part of a phenomenal organization of different ideological perspectives, kioba, which is 40 black men that own their own entrepreneurial identities. But we came together around this issue, issue of regenfication for Baltimore City, and we are, together, own the business of kioba. And together, we are, of course, a moving into wealth generation as it relates to real estate. That's a coalition. We have different ideological perspectives, but one of the things that we we're clear about is that we're not going to own the city Baltimore, if we don't do something as it relates to wealth generation together, that's just one coalition, but and then others as we even look at the we, our US movement, the black men, we decided to come together different ideological perspectives, but we were clear on one thing, that if black men together that matter to us, what ideological perspective we gotta go get our children, and we got to take responsibility for our children. And we have called, we have coalesced to make sure we do that. I hopefully by the time we leave this, this, this, this moment here, I would love to be able to connect with the two brothers that are, that are on, that are on with me together. And I also want to pay homage and respect to these great black women for women's suffrage 100 years Ida B Wells and some of those Sojourner Truth had to even fight against white women in order for them to have their own identity. So I want to celebrate this moment.
Well, thank you for saying, oh, go ahead. Go for it.
Oh, I want to say some really, really important I think, as a community, we need, as black people, we need to decolonize the we define gender. What does gender means in the black community? Because I think the root basis of inability to coalesce, to coalesce and build against different communities, even sometimes a wacky relationship between black men and black women, stems from how black people have been racialized and gender, and how this issue of gender, race and sexuality, is pretty much complicated progressive ideas and movements, I think we need to have be brave enough and courageous enough to throw away our traditional concept of gender and how gender has become valid as gender became a tool of violence in our community, and how it kind of prohibit us to make some sense some really successive changes in the past 40 years. And Michelle Wallace wrote the book about black feminism in 1974 1975 and she talked about how, particularly black women and Black Power women were abused, how black men Black Power women were ignoring the needs of black women. We have yet to rectify the issue that black anthem was talking about 4050, years ago, and that's why we have issues of that's probably when Black Lives Matter came. Came about in 2012 Martin, uh, lot of black activists were appalled to find out that black, um, Black Lives Matter will focus on gender oppression, gender issues. And I think it goes back to wow, like the brotherly models Boomer said that we have not been educated properly on issues of gender.
I think that I feel like one of the things too, that it speaks to when you when you mention that Johnny and when Doctor dames mentioned this, the way in which white women couldn't, would not like there's this way in which sometimes coalitions begin to co OPT, and there's an erasure that happens, and I feel like that. Definitely happen in the case of, like, you know, black and white women sometimes. So I think the point that I feel like too, Dr Daniels Lumumba and you as well. Dr Bailey, bring up around that piece around coalition is it's a conversation. It is not I am coming in with the Eurocentric framework that says I know what's best for you is we're having a conversation, and this should be led by you, like Dr Daniel was saying earlier, like the people should be leading. I'm going to go to the chat really quick. And Melissa says coalition building equals united strength. Bobby Holmes says it's not an either or, I believe LGBTQ rights and gender rights can be inclusive and coalition the priority is the liberation and advancement of black people period. Melissa says allyship means you have to discuss and agree upon the terms, the roles and the agenda. Another person said, people declare themselves allies because they have their own agenda. Whole principles, speak, speak, speak. Another person said, allyship means struggle and work together. Yes, indeed. Another comment, that's it, right there. Dr, Daniels, I'm listening. That's what Melissa said. And then another comment says, Dr Daniels, thank you for lifting up black women. And another comment, another comment says absolutely terms must be spelled out and requires deep consideration for black folks allyship. Allyship is not white folks reaching out to us to use us, black folks, as tokens for their agenda. If the agenda is not outlined, strategize and led by black people, then it's not for us. Another person said, I'm not sure I'm understanding the brothers. Commentary regarding Black Lives Matter and gender clarity would be much appreciated. And then Bobby Holmes said, word led by black folks, really quick. I want you to be able to comment in the in the chat regarding that, but you brought up some names, dr, dr, Daniels. And first, I want to hear from each of you who are the organizations and organizers that you reference that influence your work, that that are good guides for like the way in which you approach approach your work. And I'll go ahead and start with Dr Bailey,
I would say Kimberly cursar, Bill hooks, Jeffrey ogburg, Paul kibellon, I think I try to both each of them talked about, for example, Bell Hooks, Kim and kusala talked about intersectionality. But also I like to include Paul kibbeh long He's a historian of Black Panther Party movement, even though he doesn't talk about, he doesn't write about intersectional or coalition building. I read his books on Black Panther party formation in Oakland, California, and I try to make my own connections. I connect my own dots. I think sometimes we have to. Sometimes I don't want to be intellectually lazy and having somebody to depend on to explain to me some of the frameworks of progressive movement build. So I try to mix up my intellectual influences. So right now, Kimberly Crenshaw, bell hooks and Paul Kimble, I've been reading this summer. Those are the three stories that we're reading for the past few months.
Yeah, I definitely would put Kimberly Crenshaw in that category, because not only does she talk about theory, she definitely organizes grassroots as well as politically brother Lumumba. What are some of the organizers and organizations that you reference?
Yeah, so I did have a very long history with the Uhuru movement, and in that time, locally, I was recruited and primarily trained by a sister comrade by the name of Andy to sawatu. She was a former Black Panther Party member, and she was a leading member of the African people Socialist Party, which is a cadre organization in the Uhuru movement um nationally. I was able to have direct contact with O'Malley ishatella, who's the chairman of the African people's Socialist Party. Akua njiri, who is the widow of Fred Hampton, she was directly the national leadership of our organization as well. And Saladin Muhammad, who is out of North Carolina, the black workers for justice, very long history in the movement, and also, more recently, Ken Morgan. Dr Ken Morgan, who was a professor over at COVID State University, has had a lot of impact as well on some of the political work and ideas that I have developed.
Thank you for sharing that. And Dr James, what about
you? Let me, I'm not even going to let me tell you for me. And I started off by talking about, I've studied history, about the brothers of liberty, Harvey Johnson, not only that, and I reject, even in the social work field, I reject them telling me the father of community organizing was, of course, Saul Alinsky. I reject that. It's not the father you talk about organizing. You gotta go all the way back to Richard Allen, Denmark Vesey. You've got to go all the way back to Asa, Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of the sleeping porters. There is where Saul Alinsky got his industrial area Foundation, what we call the organizing model. There is where he got it, the locality development model of Rothman. These were, we were we had ancestors that did this work, another that influenced my life. I got all his readings was definitely Dr Amos Wilson. He was an intellectual organizer. As far as I was concerned. He helped organize my thought around Black Power. Dr Elma Martin, the meeting of this man at Morgan State University changed my life as it relates to spirituality and faith and to understand my indigenous what I owe to my African ancestors as it relates to a faith leader, not only in this city, but also around the country and around the world. So I owe a homage, and I pay deep respect to all of those ancestors. While I like the IAF model, it is indigenous to African people, African American people, because of my ancestors, and that is the coalition of base, the Goon Squad. Those brothers came together out of backgrounds, whether they were lawyers, these brothers came together to pull this city together and to demand, I still say we are not going to get what we need, whether it's in the city of 65% black, we're not going to get what we need until We understand power and how, as a coalition, we demand, we are not going to ask, you're not going to have a lot of friends, but we are going to have power, which is the ability to act according to our interests.
I think that that's a very important distinction, too, in terms of having the power to act on our own interests. Because I think there is this pacification that happens when power, or some accoutrement, some of the accessories of power, right? Some of the yeah, basically, some of the accessories of power are given to an individual, and I some of the things that I've sometimes seen as into I've seen individuals who are growing, but their community around them, the community that's around them, are not going at that same rate. And the specific question that I have for you. Dr dames, are, you know, two of our most well known orders community leaders in grassroots community organizing came out of faith based. So the most popular are, of course, like Dr King and Malcolm X. Everybody knows, if they know nothing else, they know those two. Ella Baker, right? Thank you for that. And there's also so in meetings would take places in churches and churches and hair salons and those sort of things. Um, my my question around that is, where do you see faith playing out in community organizing today, and our faith based organizing organizations doing grassroots community organizing like, what does that look like today? I think
that there are a and I'm being very clear because they know most of them know me, and I've been able to because I'm the civic action chair. And I got there because of my level of honesty to say, like Amos Wilson said, we must be insane for allowing what is happening in our communities to take place while we sit 3000 strong churches in Baltimore City how it is disrespectful to the legacy of Richard Allen and all of those pioneers that fought against white supremacy and all of the other ideologies that kept black people down for us to continue to sit in our communities, and everybody in faith communities, they know. I'm going to say it while down through 1970 de industrialization, 1980 crack cocaine, 1990 a crime bill. Year 2000 recession, and here again in Donald Trump, while we as faith leaders continue to sit by in communities that need us, and we absolutely say nothing. We started the we started the economic again, you know, I say we, but we, I press them. We were just coming together as a conference to have inspire one another. And I press them to say, this is not all. And most of you know that this is not all we can be doing. Let's go to our communities. Let's sit and listen to them 150 churches strong. Let's listen to them across 14 districts. Find out what they need from us, and then let's put agenda together, and let's begin to execute the needs of the community in our CDC, you can't even become a part of it unless you've talked to gotten permission from your community first. And far too often, we continue to not get permission. We do things and not get permission from our community elders and leaders in order to in order to service them the way that we should. You can't even join our CDC or get be serviced by them if you don't, haven't talked to your community, we want to know every community leader that you spoke to and and that you are if you're building a church, a building capital construction near your church, how is that helping the needs of those communities that are surrounding you. This ain't something that I'm talking about you. It is a program we have put in place, and every faith leader know, oh, that's Kevin, and he's going to press you on whether or not you have talked to your communities. We have an election coming up, and we're going to need all of us, because this election that's coming up, this man is right in our face telling us, I must suppress you, and we've got to come together. I could care less what your ideological perspective is. We need to get hurry up and go through trauma training for two weeks and get healed and come on about it there, so we can get about the action of what we need to do together as a collective.
I want to, I want to ask you about that again, Doctor Dane, I want to ask you what happened? What was the disconnect? What was the change in the role of the church and community organizing? Is it because there's sometimes I hear that it was more that there was a shift where, when capitalism started getting, you know, heavier involved, there was this prosperity preaching focus that came alive. What? What was the thing that kind of separated and made churches not be, not as actively in the community, like how you're saying, how you need to talk to people in the community. If you want to build a church here, you need to know the people here. You need to go talk to the elders. How did we get to where we are now, with having, as you say, did you say 3000 strong? When
you look at across the spectrum, how many churches in Baltimore City? And I think I quoted Amos Wilson, and I stay with that, we have lost our mind. That's how we got there again. We have we internally, went in, and we had this huge focus on what takes place within church and not what takes place external to church. And we have lost our mind, that's exactly what it is. There's no intellectual other way to say that. But we went through a period, of course, there are a couple other organizations that's still doing the kind of grassroots work, power, grassroots coalition, Coalition of work. But now a part of my rise was because of what you just said, there is a disconnect between the internal Church and the external needs of community. And I, my rise, was more ancestral than anything was. I owe my whole career to something ancestral because my. My rise was to say to them, you have lost your mind. We better get about the business. Let's, let's close down a lot of these ideological thought. I don't care. We need to get together as a coalition and a collective and make this happen in the we are, US movement. That's, that's who and what we are. They're pastors, they're Imams. All of that is present, and we have made a decision that the needs of our people must be a priority in this day. And I think that there's a rise. We took a dip, but I think that there is a rise from the 60s and the 70s. I think we took a dip in the sense of we begin to shift focus, whether that is integration, whether or not people were able to conquer, divide and conquer, and move people across political perspectives, spectrums, to get them do to do certain things. But now, at this particular time again, my rise was to come in and to hold people accountable. One of the things that challenges me is the fact that we don't hold each other accountable. People hold I invite people to hold me accountable as far as impact my priorities and my agenda is concerned. We need to be get able to regardless of what organization you're a part of. We need to hold each other accountable for how we are serving the needs of people that you and I love, and you and I want to succeed
right on. Oh,
go ahead. Also, one day I want to add to political education when you mentioned that we need to heal our trauma duties. Also, two weeks. We should have a little education training too. It
could be more than two weeks. I'm just
kidding. It's like, get it together. Get it together. Well,
you know, I think, I think this whole trauma movement is being politicized. You and I know healing is indigenous to African communities. So again, I believe that we are we got to be careful not to politicize trauma pathology and not talk about possibility, right?
Yeah, and, but yeah. But I think also understanding what is political education United States, I think that really would be imperative of help us understand how we got to this current movement. And I think also a lot of people have no exception of the importance of having a political education. I think one of the things that the Black Panther Party did was try to impart to the community. Was building a strong sense of the definition of United States political education for black folks. I think we need to also get back to that as well, going out for after the like, even after the election, even when I didn't know Kamala Harris in the White House, I think we tend to mobilize the foot soldiers.
Oh, why are you talking? Dr Bailey, I know you are in a process of writing your book, from Riot to revolution movement building in Baltimore from 1968 to 2000 and that book explores African Americans role at the forefront of the effort to make Baltimore a better city. From 1968 to 2000 Can you speak a little bit about what your research has uncovered about that transition of organizing and movement building?
One thing that I found out that, you know what, Luba or Rahim, I can, y'all can shoot me down. But black folks were, in my opinion, they're more radical back then they were able to understand, accept these concepts of urbanism, you know, gender, whatever you want, to these other isms and groups that were able to take these issues, and they were able to say, hey, these issues is a Part of us as black folks, and we need to also work towards equality that affect different sectors of black people. Whether you are homeless, a drug addict, you're a sex worker, you're queer, these were they were really the Vanguard what we call the New Left United States. I mean, they were attacking, tackling issues that we said right now, very radical left, leftism. And I was really shocked my research, and particularly in Baltimore, because Baltimore. More, you don't really hear these type of narratives that come out, particularly African American urban areas, particularly progressive movie building that not only touch on race, but also on different identities that affect black folks, because we have other issues that affect us, disability, for instance, ableism. So when I do my research, particularly people who were involved, particularly black folks who were now involved in the Black Panther Party, they were also involved in particular organizations that catered towards women, people who were going through drug rehabilitation issues, um incarceration. So they're tackling these military issues that pretty much were dating. Black Lives Matter, and it all happened in Baltimore. And I think it's really important for us to understand how the notion of radicalism, particularly, I always say that black folks invented radicalism in the United States. You can't have radicals black. And as a Baltimore, this book is a particular understanding. Why?
Yeah, to that point. Um, Lumumba Kimberly Foster, the founder of for hair, for Harriet, she recently commented that the phrase Black Power is just as provocative now as it was in the 70s. However, she mentioned that the statement Black Lives Matter is less provocative, almost like Black Lives Matter is black power on a on a diet. Do you do you see that? Do you agree with that? How do you see I mean, kind of to Dr Bailey's point. Our ancestors were more radical. They did push, push more. And there's this way in which Black Lives Matter is operating in and going about doing a specific type of work. But I do see it getting more commercialized. I went to a protest, and I've gone to several protests, and this had to be by far the whitest protests I've ever been to,
yeah. So I think history, history is a series of developments, nothing, nothing stays stagnant, right? Everything that we understand is the collective, uh, accumulation of all the we've learned become that comes before us, right and so and then you get a chance to be able to test the new ideas and push them further right. And what, what looks radical today, 20 years from now, may not be, maybe center left. You might be that kind of stuff. I think what's important is, is that we, first of all, always have to understand the construct of what America is, what what us, capitalism and imperialism is white supremacy, right? Because it, it's the reference point for even the reason why we call ourselves black, right? Because black in a place, it's a political identity, right? And so all of these things are in mixed so we say black lives matter. It's a part of the ongoing struggle to be recognized as human beings in a system that built itself off of us as chattel, right? And we have to be able to be remembered to critique that, that you don't have in America without chattel, you don't have America without genocide. You don't have an America without colonialism, right? Those things ain't, never been changed. Ain't, not one of those things been said in this current period. But you cannot have this moment if those things didn't exist and still are a part of the makeup of what makes America America, when you start talking about the word black power, and the reason why there's a decoupling of the term Black Power and Black Lives Matter, not that black. I don't think that black lives matter isn't that it isn't provocative. I think it's important, right? But black lives matter, as long as white people get to authenticate that and approve that black lives matter, is what the thrust of it's about, right? That's why it can be commercialized. That's why businesses can have slogans and tell you happily spend your money with us, because Black Lives Matter, right? Amazon and and television networks and all of that. But nobody puts up a slogan that says Black Power, because they know what black power means. It means undoing colonialism. It means undoing slavery. It means undoing chattel. You know it means undoing those things and allowing the people who you've stolen wealth, power, labor, life from being able to have, allowing, not allowing, but them taking that power back and being able to decide for themselves what the future is going to look like, right? Black Power can demand that black lives matter, and if you don't like it, there's a consequence for you not respecting black power. That's why Black Power is has this more provocative tone, and that's why they have to be decoupled.
You know what? You just said, something that really, um, that really clicked for me in terms of the difference between. Between the two, like even if they do have somewhat of the same aims, there is this way in which Black Lives Matter seeks to I feel like appeal to white conscious and Black Power is saying, no, no, you know it's, it's a different is you coming from a different energetic you're coming from a different standpoint, to say to demand and stand in power, as opposed to, I want you to recognize that I'm a human being and consider that I that I have a life, and you should listen to me, and you should care about me, as opposed to no black power, you know, like owning that in owning that space. Yeah, I could definitely see that. Um, dr, Deus, I want to talk to you about. So in the book social work practice with African Americans in urban environments, you and your colleagues wrote a chapter called Exploring urban faith based social work community collaboration for mental health promotion in urban African American communities. First, I wanted to ask, what is an urban African American, what as you, as you define it in the context of that, and also, um, how the other aspect of it is that that check, that chapter in the book, is summarized specific urban faith based Health Promotion models. How can knowing about these faith based mental health models help with community organizing. So the first part of that question is, what exactly is an urban African American, and how can the use of urban faith based health promotion models help with organizing today, I know you mentioned that piece about trauma, and you joked a bit about the two weeks and that part
of the healing city trauma team, you know, just, I'm a part of that. So again, we get a chance to, we get a chance to talk about, talk about it on all levels. But again, when you start talking about urban and as we discussed even even in class, when we start talking about urban you start looking at, first of all, density. They're about. They are 30 they are 4242 urban centers. In the state of Maryland, you have 11 that are urban centers, but also 32 that are clusters. And it is based upon, of course, it is based upon, when you get technical, it is based upon the density, how many per 55 how many per square square miles, so to speak, that is how you define number one in urban center. But then also when you start talking about urban Americans, so to speak, you start talking about issues, particularly around African Americans. You start talking about issues of when we talked about ideologies that take place in urban centers and how they were put together and urban did not start. Of course, we know in America, it started in Africa, around the Nile around the Nile valley, in order to fully understand and imagine wealth, they were able to utilize they were able to utilize water, soil. They were able to utilize all of those environmental functions to develop urban and to expand into some of those, some of those city spaces and state spaces that made them a flowering civilization to which all of the people from around the world would come and steal those ideals from that perspective. But when you talk about it from a in the United States. You start to talk about it, it takes on a different appeal as it relates to pathological in its history. Let's put them together so that we can further so that we can further oppress, disenfranchise. So again, early on in our history, urban becomes something that was extremely pathological, but now, and now, of course, it has now become work, where you live, live, where you work, kind of identities, and now it's about, let me move you from urban centers. We saw what they did in Baltimore City in the 70s, when the Inner Harbor was a place for, I know y'all too young for this, the place for Lexington terrace, flag house, Murphy homes, all of that. I see my brother laughing. It was then, all of a sudden, it became, when the industrialization went out, when service jobs came in, it became a place that was pretty let's make it the Inner Harbor, and let's move families away from their urban into the suburban matter so we can live, work and drive in our community. So for us, an urban center literally deals with the fact as it relates to now. Now it is being redefined. Urban is being redefined for us, and we need to be very clear about land banking, Land Trust, because development is what's happening in our communities. And I focus, I focus a whole lot of work as we evolve that class, Rasheem doc. Let me just acknowledge you and call it. This is, this is not just Rasheem Rasheem. This is Doctor. I just want everybody, I saw her, become a doctor. I just want everybody be clear about that. So it is about how we how we define urban at this particular time. Um, urban has now become a co op. Mm, for for other people coming in and now redefining it, and somehow or another, I think the only thing in Baltimore city that has held up the full re gentrification has been, and I'm getting may say something that's going to raise tension and agitation has been
violence. I
know that's a little tight, but had it. And I hate to say it that way, because I don't want to contribute to the to violence as much as I want to say that it held up the full rejection of Baltimore City for us to get ourselves together and to realize and to really gain enough power to take over our urban centers again, because again, urban centers have become the arc of prosperity for people, maybe not necessarily. I'm just talking about futuristically. There's a whole definition that I have that we talk about at Morgan on what urban is, even navigating urban centers, how to do that, all of that, but, but at its base, it is density. And there are 42 of them in Maryland, Baltimore being the the largest, and it Baltimore, because of I looked at a Brookings Report, and because everybody wants to get in Baltimore right now, but the only thing that held them up was the violence.
Thank you for that. We are at the bottom of the hour. I still want to allow folks a chance to say what they're up to next. I could talk to y'all for a whole lot more gentrification. We could get into gentrification involved in Baltimore. I would love to have that conversation. Yeah, absolutely. That
was his sister. That was the sister that Bobby knows that came in. I forgot her name. She talked about housing and real estate, and when I tell you, she was superb, I didn't move the sister was so awesome. As she laid out the history of Baltimore and some of the issues around real estate and Regent vacation,
I think I saw that. Was it? A BSW, yes, yeah, she was real. She was definitely on point. I would love to have her. I'm probably going to reach out to Bobby to see I would love to have her, because she she was able to highlight aspects of redlining that just like, made the picture very clear, especially when she showed like pictures from the past, and then like a picture of a map from the past, and then picture now, and how to how we're still being impacted by it. I'm gonna go over to the chat really quick. Melissa says urban centers, urban clusters. She also says I need to re enroll in Dr Davis class.
Dr Buckley, it is
Asia. Says doctor with an exclamation point, oh, she's talking about what you said. She said put some respect on her name. Ty COVID says, That's right. Dr Rasheem and then Ty also says we need the gentrification of Baltimore. Counter narrative episode if Dr Daniels and Lumumba and the other if Bobby could put me in contact with the other woman, I'll be glad to have that episode,
because butterfly, it's still a butterfly effect in Baltimore, yep,
the white L and the Black Butterfly. And if you don't know what that is then I'll make sure that I share what it once we get the episode, date and time together. Dr Bailey, I want to give you a chance to let everybody know what you're up to next. How can they find follow or friend you?
Dr Bailey, Oh, me. Oh. So currently, the pandemic is kind of handling the book writing process, because I have to go to a couple more archives. Particularly, it's a sister, luboma, and Dr Hinson might know her. I. And I don't want to Bucha her name, S, H, O, K, A, G, E, C, was a Black Panther Party member in Baltimore. Idea Gibson, excuse one. Idea Gibson, March, 23 1954, is to change the name to s to the key to societ and she got her papers up in Massachusetts, so I had to look at her paperwork. Gonna do couple more chapters. And I'm still I'm currently in New Jersey. I graduated from Morgan State. 2017 I moved to New Jersey after I graduated from Morgan State. So I live in Triton, New Jersey. Trinity jersey is like Baltimore, but Michael, Michael Michael cos on Baltimore in Trenton, New Jersey. That's when I thought that really interesting when I first moved up here. But I'm scrolling eastern New Jersey, writing a book and teaching.
Okay? Dr Danes, what are you up to next? How can people find follow or friends you where your church located?
I'm at 2118 Madison Avenue, and I'm working with I get a wonderful opportunity to work with this great host on the Black Arts District later, Lady Brian, I get a wonderful opportunity now that I'm a part. We are all together, and we're working on that together. But then number two, I get another awesome privilege to work with Dr Melissa Buckley Zeke Cohen on navigating healing city trauma, the trauma and as we go forth and claim our power, we need to also claim our identity and our and our holistic self. So I get an awesome opportunity to work with them in healing city and trauma, but also get another opportunity to teach at Morgan, the doctoral programs. MSW, we were just really getting my class and my structure of my class off the ground when Dr Rasheem was there, and but I get a wonderful opportunity to teach and to prepare Msw and BSW, PhDs. And also I'm continuing my work as a strategy team member. I am a part of the build organization. I continue my work in order to help shape agenda for for the organization. And I'm a part of the we, our US movement, the black men. I'm a part of kioba real estate. So again, my plate is full, but I'm so hopeful, and I'm excited about all that's happening the minister's conference and our agenda on the church shall lead and working with communities across 14 districts. So I'm really excited get a chance to work with the Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle in whenever they need me, they call me. They know where I where I am, whatever I can do for them. They know that. So I'm excited with the agenda that God has given me, and not only just God has given me, but my my ancestors has given me as well.
Love it. This is what I mean when I say when in the introduction of introducing you, why I know when I when this episode was actualized for me, in my mind that it was no doubt in terms of having you, because when I tell you that you are one of the only people that I see not only theorizing, writing or talking about it, you are a practitioner in The movement and actually practicing what you preach. And just like being a mentor, being a support, and it's I just can't thank you enough for the work that you're doing out there. And just, I just appreciate you so much. You send me
your cash app. I'm gonna send you some money for that. I got you.
I got to brother Lumumba, what are you up to? What are you involved in? How can people find friend or folly? Yeah,
certainly, so ongoing. We always have work now. We've started it since the COVID 19 crisis, providing mutual aid work to get food into communities that are poor and working class. One of our primary locations is over in East Baltimore, at Douglas homes every day, Monday through Friday, we have volunteers who help unload food and distribute food and mass water to families. Part of that work has also led us to the creation of something called the Gloria Richardson solidarity garden program. GLORIA Richardson is a is an elder. She is still alive in her late 90s, who in Eastern Shore was a leader in the civil rights movement, really a strong supporter of Malcolm X. Blacks and H rap Brown as well. And just like the kind of champion that, especially as an African woman, we always have right, our history as a struggle is just lit with women of that character, of that strength, and we just wanted to recognize her while she's still alive as well. The solidarity garden is a project that helped working black, working class families to start food gardens in their own home based upon what their needs are, what their space is. We've been really exposed that food the food deserts and the lack of food sovereignty is a real crisis that has been placed on us, which is an interesting contradiction, because African people were brought here to farm the land and to feed Europeans, and now we, pretty much as a people, have lost that skill, and so we're fighting to bring that back. We're starting education series and organizing the resources on that people can also get a part of our political education classes for us. We have a center. We're anti imperialist, we're anti racist, anti capitalist, anti sexist. We breathe in African liberation, reparation and self determination. We are building a political party. I think some of the discussions we've had around the economic development, around the police. These are things on our platform that we use as the basis of our education. We really do have to understand the not just the politics of the city, but how political parties work, how people who are in office work, how relationship to economic interest is really important, and how we can understand that, and these things transcend whether we're black or whether we're male or female, but really go to the heart of when you live in a capitalist system, all the isms that we talk about, about controlling resources and wealth, and we have to be able to build a community of people who understand what those things are. So when we organize, we build institutions that give us power, that we build movements that about our power and that we're challenging the power of a ruling class. That's that's really the worst thing that we've seen in history this planet. You can catch us at Facebook, at up Maryland, and also our web page is up maryland.org/support, that way you can get plugged in. People will actually contact you if you want to do the mutual aid work, if you want to be a part of the political education, just come on Facebook. We get you into the process and get you registered. We do it twice a month. And you know, it's about building power from a working class perspective, and everybody's welcome, but they got to be honest, this is Black Worker led, and it's going to remain Black Worker led to stay sincere.
I know that's right. Stay sincere with the brother. Thank you guys so much for coming on. I absolutely positively appreciate it. You have been watching the counter narrative show. This episode has been grassroots community organizing with Dr Kevin Daniels brother Lumumba and Dr Johnny Bailey. Next week, episode is Ebony faces and ivory towers as we talk to black women in the academy. Thank you again, so much for joining. Thank you all for being here. I appreciate y'all.
Thank you proud of y'all. Know what to do.
Oh so. Dr Rahim, can you also give me that contact information for both of
the mothers I want us to connect?
Yeah, definitely, yeah.
I will virtually do a virtual email intro. Okay,
I need to know everything, who in the what in the where I need everything. Trust me, I hear what you're saying, but I like this. Know what you're telling me. I'm Curious George. I happened to Porsche five and a horse. I'm ready for war. I'm coming for throws to turn it with ghosts. I need to know everything you.