WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.211 --> 00:00:02.221 Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things. 00:00:02.221 --> 00:00:03.601 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:03.721 --> 00:00:04.441 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:05.521 --> 00:00:10.831 And today we're gonna finally resume our deep dive into the dao. 00:00:11.530 --> 00:00:15.970 Actually, can I just say today we're going to resume our reading 00:00:15.970 --> 00:00:17.530 of the DAO chapter by chapter. 00:00:17.990 --> 00:00:22.700 We skip chapter three because of a disagreement about how to interpret it. 00:00:22.700 --> 00:00:24.830 But you know, we may come back to it at some point. 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:26.120 Yes. 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.480 Chapter three was quite authoritarian, Sam. 00:00:29.990 --> 00:00:34.880 It struck you immediately and me also as just a little bit fascist, however, yeah, 00:00:35.660 --> 00:00:40.100 I thought it was very fasc and then you wanted to go and like reinterpret it. 00:00:40.100 --> 00:00:44.124 So, we're gonna have to go through so many mental gymnastics to interpret 00:00:44.124 --> 00:00:47.754 it in a non fascist way, which I'm sure you would've achieved. 00:00:48.204 --> 00:00:51.564 But I just, you know, I had a stronger aversion to it. 00:00:52.224 --> 00:00:53.394 And you know what, I had to listen. 00:00:54.294 --> 00:00:57.114 So we're gonna do chapter four, which was hard for me, but there was a 00:00:57.114 --> 00:01:00.444 happy thing that came out of it, which is I found a wonderful commentary 00:01:00.444 --> 00:01:07.314 by an amazing scholar, uh, who also happens to be a lawyer by day, and 00:01:07.674 --> 00:01:12.654 really was in a good position to talk about the legalistic sound of it. 00:01:12.804 --> 00:01:14.159 Is this chapter three or Chapter four? 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:14.514 Chapter three. 00:01:14.514 --> 00:01:15.354 Chapter three, yeah. 00:01:15.414 --> 00:01:15.924 Yeah, yeah. 00:01:16.138 --> 00:01:17.338 so that was a great discovery. 00:01:17.338 --> 00:01:18.688 Anyway, okay. 00:01:18.748 --> 00:01:19.618 But we're skipping it. 00:01:19.708 --> 00:01:20.008 Yeah. 00:01:20.368 --> 00:01:24.898 Anyway, listeners can go and listen to go and read verse three of the da 00:01:24.898 --> 00:01:30.718 de ching and tell us what you think and possibly, you know, find for 00:01:30.718 --> 00:01:34.288 yourself the non fascist, uh, reading of it, which I think is the true one. 00:01:34.888 --> 00:01:39.388 Now, we can make up our, we can also make up our minds about chapter four, 00:01:39.598 --> 00:01:43.228 which is an entirely different feel to the verse before the chapter before. 00:01:44.338 --> 00:01:44.818 Okay. 00:01:44.968 --> 00:01:47.128 So this is from distic.com, 00:01:47.158 --> 00:01:48.628 which is our usual reference. 00:01:50.098 --> 00:01:51.568 The way is empty. 00:01:52.153 --> 00:01:55.783 Yet inexhaustible like an abyss. 00:01:56.353 --> 00:01:58.813 It seems to be the origin of all things. 00:01:59.473 --> 00:02:06.793 It dulls the sharpness, unties the knots, dims the lights becomes one 00:02:06.793 --> 00:02:13.813 with the dust, deeply hidden as if it, as if it only might exist. 00:02:14.203 --> 00:02:16.213 I do not know whose child it is. 00:02:16.363 --> 00:02:19.363 It seems to proceed the ancestor of all. 00:02:20.263 --> 00:02:24.793 I thought it was deeply hi hidden as if it only might exist. 00:02:25.543 --> 00:02:31.813 Emphasis on the might deeply hidden as if it only might exist. 00:02:31.963 --> 00:02:35.023 Yes, that's, that was how I read it. 00:02:35.083 --> 00:02:38.053 I think that's correct because you put the emphasis on only. 00:02:38.559 --> 00:02:39.399 well, there you go. 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:41.379 There's always something to talk about. 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.989 So when you sent me this yesterday, I, I loved it. 00:02:43.989 --> 00:02:46.134 I, it's like a cool mountain breeze. 00:02:46.824 --> 00:02:51.834 Blew through my mind and I was like, yes, this is exactly right. 00:02:52.854 --> 00:02:54.774 Uh, it's gonna be, this is the Dao I'm after. 00:02:55.344 --> 00:02:56.034 Yes. 00:02:56.034 --> 00:02:58.854 Well, the Dao that can be named is not the true Dao, right? 00:02:59.244 --> 00:02:59.364 Mm-hmm. 00:02:59.964 --> 00:03:01.614 It made me think of God. 00:03:01.824 --> 00:03:03.204 Sam, can you read it again? 00:03:03.204 --> 00:03:03.984 'cause it's, yeah. 00:03:04.014 --> 00:03:04.884 Just read it again. 00:03:05.394 --> 00:03:05.694 Yeah. 00:03:06.204 --> 00:03:10.884 The way is empty, yet inexhaustible like an abyss. 00:03:11.304 --> 00:03:13.854 It seems to be the origin of all things. 00:03:14.304 --> 00:03:21.864 It dulls the sharpness, unties the knot, dims the light becomes one with the dust, 00:03:22.974 --> 00:03:25.794 deeply hidden as if it only might exist. 00:03:26.154 --> 00:03:27.984 I do not know whose child it is. 00:03:28.014 --> 00:03:31.014 It seems to precede the ancestor of all. 00:03:32.004 --> 00:03:34.884 Yeah, I mean, those last couple of lines to me, that's God. 00:03:36.354 --> 00:03:41.184 Well, many people share your conclusion and, uh, more than one 00:03:41.184 --> 00:03:44.844 commentator has said that the last line seems to be the only direct 00:03:44.844 --> 00:03:49.374 reference to a God in the whole text. 00:03:49.494 --> 00:03:50.514 In the whole text. 00:03:50.544 --> 00:03:50.874 Mm-hmm. 00:03:51.474 --> 00:03:52.614 It seems to proceed. 00:03:52.614 --> 00:03:54.084 The all ancestors. 00:03:54.144 --> 00:03:54.654 Yes. 00:03:54.714 --> 00:03:57.774 And so we're going back to what was before the Big Bang. 00:03:57.774 --> 00:03:58.164 Right. 00:03:59.124 --> 00:04:00.354 It feels like that. 00:04:01.584 --> 00:04:04.464 And that's, that's the vibe I've caught from many other people in their 00:04:04.464 --> 00:04:09.774 commentary on it, saying that it seems to refer to, you know, what lies before 00:04:09.774 --> 00:04:11.544 the cause of all things, you know? 00:04:11.664 --> 00:04:12.114 Yeah. 00:04:12.144 --> 00:04:16.434 Like when you're a child and you're like, wait a minute, if God exists 00:04:16.434 --> 00:04:18.624 and God created things, wait a minute. 00:04:18.684 --> 00:04:18.984 Who? 00:04:19.464 --> 00:04:20.664 Who created God? 00:04:20.964 --> 00:04:21.984 Who created God? 00:04:21.984 --> 00:04:22.344 Yeah. 00:04:22.434 --> 00:04:22.734 Yeah. 00:04:23.094 --> 00:04:24.624 So yeah, it doesn't take much. 00:04:25.524 --> 00:04:31.944 Childlike imaginary type thinking to get to paradoxes, which are unsolvable. 00:04:31.974 --> 00:04:35.694 Like anyone can do that with a few leaps of logic, right? 00:04:35.844 --> 00:04:37.554 That's right, yes. 00:04:37.704 --> 00:04:41.604 I think it's very important to acknowledge that children are fairly natural 00:04:41.604 --> 00:04:46.524 philosophers and that we might overstate the complexity or difficulty of philosophy 00:04:46.524 --> 00:04:49.374 and imagine that, oh, well, you know, we need to wait till they're a bit older, 00:04:49.854 --> 00:04:52.584 but no, children are very ready to engage. 00:04:52.734 --> 00:04:55.884 And the reason I mention that, you know, not just that I work in 00:04:55.884 --> 00:05:01.794 education, but, and have children, but as you say, anyone can quite 00:05:01.794 --> 00:05:04.134 readily discover paradoxical things. 00:05:04.344 --> 00:05:04.704 Mm-hmm. 00:05:05.034 --> 00:05:07.404 Now, some would say that the source of the paradoxes is 00:05:07.404 --> 00:05:11.754 language, which is a good argument. 00:05:12.144 --> 00:05:13.584 Dunno if it's a complete argument. 00:05:13.644 --> 00:05:16.614 Uh, but the Dao certainly makes that argument that the dao that 00:05:16.614 --> 00:05:18.654 can be named is not the Dao. 00:05:18.654 --> 00:05:19.374 In other words. 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:22.839 If you're trying to do games with language, you won't get there. 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:23.469 Yeah. 00:05:23.469 --> 00:05:28.419 And I have this experience of going from an atheist to a believer in God, 00:05:29.109 --> 00:05:34.149 but I can't really use the word God with pretty much any of my friends. 00:05:34.149 --> 00:05:37.749 You're a bit of an exception because the Hari Christians have a God, right? 00:05:37.929 --> 00:05:38.289 Yes. 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:44.679 So very much a personal, you know, a supreme being who has a personality. 00:05:44.769 --> 00:05:45.189 Yes. 00:05:45.489 --> 00:05:46.629 Yeah. 00:05:46.659 --> 00:05:51.549 So with you, I feel at ease that I can talk about my newfound 00:05:51.549 --> 00:05:57.309 relationship with God, but the word God is such a very problem. 00:05:58.629 --> 00:05:59.319 Yeah. 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.699 It's such a loaded and in a lot of ways, a dead kind of word. 00:06:04.299 --> 00:06:07.239 Oh, very good to describe what I'm trying to describe. 00:06:07.239 --> 00:06:11.889 But I could say the God that can be named is not the true God. 00:06:12.429 --> 00:06:14.439 But I think it's exactly the same idea. 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:14.679 Yeah. 00:06:15.039 --> 00:06:15.339 Yeah. 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:17.529 But, but that description. 00:06:18.699 --> 00:06:21.759 In, that verse about, what is it? 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.039 It's in the dust or, yeah, yeah. 00:06:24.039 --> 00:06:24.429 Yeah. 00:06:24.429 --> 00:06:28.239 And you know what, there's some very interesting alternative 00:06:28.239 --> 00:06:33.069 translations of that line, which we, we may need to mention it. 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:34.929 It seems to be the origin of all things. 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:39.339 It dulls the sharpness, unties the knots, dims the light becomes one with 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:41.589 the dust, becomes one with the dust. 00:06:42.009 --> 00:06:42.039 Mm. 00:06:42.189 --> 00:06:44.559 I just love that as a piece of writing. 00:06:44.949 --> 00:06:45.579 Oh, it's great. 00:06:46.119 --> 00:06:46.629 Yeah. 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:47.949 It's a very poetic text. 00:06:47.949 --> 00:06:51.039 And, and, and that's part of it becomes one with the dust. 00:06:51.099 --> 00:06:51.369 Mm. 00:06:52.059 --> 00:06:54.519 Well that's like, that's where we're all headed, right? 00:06:55.029 --> 00:06:57.999 I think it's kind of, I think it's meant to bring that to mind. 00:06:58.479 --> 00:06:58.839 Certainly. 00:06:59.049 --> 00:06:59.349 Yeah. 00:06:59.349 --> 00:06:59.409 Yeah. 00:06:59.949 --> 00:07:03.494 Like yeah, it's very evocative, but that's, it's. 00:07:04.429 --> 00:07:10.639 If I was trying to find a verse to give someone who was still an atheist, some 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:14.929 sense of what I'm talking about, this is a pretty good one to point towards. 00:07:14.929 --> 00:07:15.829 A higher power. 00:07:16.459 --> 00:07:16.849 Yeah. 00:07:16.909 --> 00:07:17.839 But I don't know. 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.959 Do you know in the Dao if there is a God? 00:07:22.129 --> 00:07:30.169 Yeah, I, I think it's a, a question that it in some ways gets avoided and that you, 00:07:30.169 --> 00:07:33.259 very rarely when you read any commentaries or hear discussion about it, people 00:07:33.259 --> 00:07:38.239 don't really engage with the notion of God all that often, but indirectly, you 00:07:38.239 --> 00:07:42.259 know, people might talk about it having religious or spiritual meaning for them. 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:50.689 I think of it, this text as a work of philosophy and not, not just as 00:07:50.689 --> 00:07:52.759 strictly as a poetic or mystical text. 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:58.339 I think it's a work of philosophy, but expressed often in ause or poetic way. 00:07:59.239 --> 00:08:02.689 But wherever there's philosophy, there's often the question of God lurking. 00:08:04.309 --> 00:08:07.579 And the, the things that people are trying to work out through philosophy 00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:10.429 are often very closely related to the things we're trying to work out 00:08:10.429 --> 00:08:12.169 through, through the, the notion of God. 00:08:12.483 --> 00:08:17.163 my very kind of amateur understanding is that the, the Dao is explaining 00:08:17.163 --> 00:08:21.183 a dynamic of apparent opposites, which is productive of all things 00:08:21.693 --> 00:08:23.163 and which resolves all things. 00:08:23.163 --> 00:08:28.143 But see, this person who's writing about this has fa discovered something 00:08:28.143 --> 00:08:29.583 and is trying to describe it. 00:08:30.783 --> 00:08:31.743 That's how I read it. 00:08:31.803 --> 00:08:32.373 Agree. 00:08:32.433 --> 00:08:37.293 Like then, you know, when I was an atheist, I thought all religions were 00:08:37.473 --> 00:08:41.133 delusions based on human fear of death. 00:08:42.063 --> 00:08:42.273 Yeah. 00:08:42.303 --> 00:08:46.383 Whereas now I think they're all religions are trying to describe 00:08:46.602 --> 00:08:48.402 essentially the same thing. 00:08:49.317 --> 00:08:52.707 So they're trying to describe an experience which I can't give to 00:08:52.707 --> 00:08:54.147 an atheist if they've never had it. 00:08:54.437 --> 00:08:58.962 find a way to understand it, put it that way so I can mm-hmm. 00:08:59.237 --> 00:09:02.477 So I've been drawn to Buddhism lately. 00:09:02.477 --> 00:09:04.667 I've been reading more Christian texts. 00:09:04.697 --> 00:09:04.997 Yes. 00:09:05.183 --> 00:09:11.003 because I've had a profound experience and I now see the value 00:09:11.003 --> 00:09:12.383 in the religions of the world. 00:09:13.163 --> 00:09:13.613 Yes. 00:09:13.943 --> 00:09:21.383 You no longer just write it off as a scam or a fairy tale or, yeah. 00:09:21.383 --> 00:09:25.703 One of the many stories that, in that, you know, that new atheist 00:09:25.703 --> 00:09:32.798 that, um, Christopher Hitchens kind of very, Dismissive and, how 00:09:32.798 --> 00:09:35.678 idiotic it is and or Richard Dawkins. 00:09:35.738 --> 00:09:36.008 Yeah. 00:09:36.008 --> 00:09:36.938 Those guys. 00:09:37.598 --> 00:09:42.548 You know, they're, they're compelling, um, speakers and writers, and it 00:09:42.548 --> 00:09:46.838 already aligned with how I was raised to understand religion myself. 00:09:46.958 --> 00:09:47.048 Mm-hmm. 00:09:47.459 --> 00:09:53.159 so it made sense to be that guy in the bar in 2005 or 00:09:53.159 --> 00:09:56.279 whatever who's like the atheist. 00:09:56.369 --> 00:10:01.049 It was definitely a fashionable posture to, at that time where literally 00:10:01.049 --> 00:10:06.299 2005 is right on the money of like, and a little still going on, you 00:10:06.299 --> 00:10:08.609 know, through to the maybe 2010. 00:10:08.609 --> 00:10:10.919 And I think we started thinking about other stuff a bit more. 00:10:11.729 --> 00:10:15.449 Uh, I think politics came back, you know, that was a big one, but. 00:10:15.751 --> 00:10:19.231 It was fashionable to say that it was an empty, useless thing that 00:10:19.231 --> 00:10:20.971 only an idiot could be interested in. 00:10:20.971 --> 00:10:23.461 Empty, useless thing that only an idiot could be use. 00:10:23.851 --> 00:10:24.481 Interested in. 00:10:24.481 --> 00:10:24.961 Yeah. 00:10:24.961 --> 00:10:24.971 Yeah. 00:10:25.291 --> 00:10:26.911 And or Or find a useful, yeah. 00:10:27.241 --> 00:10:28.051 Yeah. 00:10:28.051 --> 00:10:29.641 And we'd moved on that. 00:10:29.641 --> 00:10:31.081 We're all smarter than that now. 00:10:31.081 --> 00:10:34.861 Well, us educated people who've read a bit of philosophy or 00:10:34.861 --> 00:10:36.241 whatever, we're smarter than that. 00:10:36.516 --> 00:10:36.806 Yeah. 00:10:36.811 --> 00:10:37.381 Yeah. 00:10:37.441 --> 00:10:41.461 'cause it was like 150 years after Nietzche said God is dead. 00:10:41.461 --> 00:10:41.851 Right. 00:10:41.941 --> 00:10:42.091 Yeah. 00:10:42.091 --> 00:10:44.341 Surely this question has been settled long ago. 00:10:44.341 --> 00:10:46.321 Like, and that's what I always thought, Sam. 00:10:46.321 --> 00:10:46.561 Yeah. 00:10:46.561 --> 00:10:47.341 Let's all move on. 00:10:47.341 --> 00:10:49.651 Until I got myself into a spot in life. 00:10:50.371 --> 00:10:50.521 Yeah. 00:10:50.521 --> 00:10:52.321 AKA being an alcoholic. 00:10:53.011 --> 00:10:53.101 Yeah. 00:10:53.101 --> 00:10:55.081 That I couldn't get out of. 00:10:55.291 --> 00:10:55.381 Mm-hmm. 00:10:55.891 --> 00:10:59.581 Without a spiritual solution, without some form of surrender. 00:11:00.571 --> 00:11:01.231 Totally. 00:11:01.441 --> 00:11:05.371 So once I got to that point, suddenly my atheism. 00:11:06.436 --> 00:11:08.656 You know, my dad was an atheist, alcoholic, and he 00:11:08.656 --> 00:11:10.876 died at 50, still an atheist. 00:11:10.876 --> 00:11:15.496 So that ego, so there's an egotism to it, to that new atheism that 00:11:15.496 --> 00:11:20.806 where there's a kind of smugness or self-satisfaction, which is ultimately, 00:11:20.806 --> 00:11:26.236 I think if you can find atheism with alcoholic drinking, you get nihilism. 00:11:26.296 --> 00:11:27.256 Oh yeah, yeah. 00:11:27.316 --> 00:11:30.736 And once you're in nihilism, then you're on the way to an early grave. 00:11:30.826 --> 00:11:31.126 Yes. 00:11:31.126 --> 00:11:37.876 And if you combine a somewhat helpless state with also this sort of sense 00:11:37.876 --> 00:11:41.356 of superiority, it's oof brutal. 00:11:42.091 --> 00:11:42.721 Yeah. 00:11:43.051 --> 00:11:46.291 There's plenty of people in bars all around the world who will tell you 00:11:46.291 --> 00:11:47.761 the answer to the world's problems. 00:11:47.851 --> 00:11:49.591 And they're, they're the smartest guy in the bar. 00:11:49.591 --> 00:11:51.031 They're the smartest guy on the street. 00:11:51.301 --> 00:11:52.291 Maybe even in the world. 00:11:52.501 --> 00:11:52.711 Yeah. 00:11:52.741 --> 00:11:53.281 Yeah. 00:11:53.341 --> 00:11:54.511 Insecure. 00:11:54.571 --> 00:11:54.841 Yeah. 00:11:54.871 --> 00:11:56.791 Big ego, low self-esteem. 00:11:57.091 --> 00:11:57.391 Yeah. 00:11:58.261 --> 00:12:00.331 That's a typical alcoholic, irritable. 00:12:00.361 --> 00:12:01.051 And that was me. 00:12:01.111 --> 00:12:01.501 Yeah. 00:12:01.771 --> 00:12:05.371 Irritable, egocentric, aggressive. 00:12:05.431 --> 00:12:05.791 Yeah. 00:12:06.961 --> 00:12:10.831 And take, take a, take offense at At small things. 00:12:10.831 --> 00:12:12.151 Pick on small things. 00:12:12.151 --> 00:12:12.541 Yeah. 00:12:12.721 --> 00:12:16.938 It's, you know, it's not a great way to beat and we've seen, you know. 00:12:17.693 --> 00:12:22.043 Or the kind of person that takes delight in pointing out a small typo, 00:12:22.043 --> 00:12:25.853 graphical error or a spelling error in someone's otherwise reasonable 00:12:25.853 --> 00:12:27.353 comment on a YouTube video. 00:12:27.353 --> 00:12:28.403 You know, that kind of thing. 00:12:28.463 --> 00:12:28.853 Yeah. 00:12:28.853 --> 00:12:30.773 It's like you, you, you're missing the point. 00:12:30.773 --> 00:12:34.913 You're not engaging with the real thing Here I was, I was working with the mental 00:12:34.913 --> 00:12:37.973 health client the other day who was talking about stuff he read in YouTube 00:12:37.973 --> 00:12:42.713 comments and I'm like, bro, yeah, you can't be in that part of the internet. 00:12:42.983 --> 00:12:44.993 It's like the darkest part of the internet. 00:12:45.023 --> 00:12:48.053 There's some remarkably wise and w wise and wonderful things 00:12:48.053 --> 00:12:49.523 that get said in those sections. 00:12:49.523 --> 00:12:54.533 And then there's not, you know, there's stuff that is just a tail told by an idiot 00:12:54.533 --> 00:12:57.353 full of sound and fury signifying nothing. 00:12:57.413 --> 00:12:57.833 Yeah. 00:12:57.833 --> 00:12:59.303 Which was what came to me earlier. 00:12:59.483 --> 00:13:02.873 I think you're in a strong mental position to handle the internet, Sam. 00:13:02.903 --> 00:13:03.713 Oh yeah, I am. 00:13:03.713 --> 00:13:04.253 I guess, yeah. 00:13:04.253 --> 00:13:05.753 Like you take it with a grain of salt. 00:13:05.753 --> 00:13:10.673 This person like me is pretty hypersensitive and um, I was like, yeah, 00:13:10.733 --> 00:13:12.683 I already got him off Twitter a month ago. 00:13:12.893 --> 00:13:12.953 Yeah. 00:13:13.193 --> 00:13:15.983 And then he came back a couple of weeks later on, I feel so much better. 00:13:15.983 --> 00:13:16.733 I'm off Twitter. 00:13:17.423 --> 00:13:19.943 And then he, then he starts quoting the YouTube comments. 00:13:19.973 --> 00:13:23.573 'cause it's funny with YouTube, you don't think of it as a social media platform. 00:13:23.573 --> 00:13:24.143 Yeah, it is. 00:13:24.143 --> 00:13:24.163 It is. 00:13:24.173 --> 00:13:25.223 But it is, it is. 00:13:25.373 --> 00:13:25.643 Yeah. 00:13:25.943 --> 00:13:29.453 It, it is officially classified as that in many, well, they're 00:13:29.453 --> 00:13:30.923 banning it for under 16. 00:13:31.193 --> 00:13:31.403 That's right. 00:13:31.433 --> 00:13:34.253 And it's, it now has that legal classification, but it had, 00:13:34.283 --> 00:13:38.333 it had a practical and, uh, technological one before that. 00:13:38.333 --> 00:13:38.933 But No, no. 00:13:38.933 --> 00:13:42.593 It is now legally and morally being handled in the same way as Instagram 00:13:42.593 --> 00:13:46.681 or Twitter, which everyone knows can be, what is it, what's the word? 00:13:46.741 --> 00:13:48.781 Carnival, like fun house mirrors. 00:13:48.841 --> 00:13:51.931 You know, like, there's just these weird reflections of your own 00:13:51.931 --> 00:13:56.101 projections and, and then you are reading other people's weird projections 00:13:56.101 --> 00:13:57.991 of stuff and reacting to that. 00:13:57.991 --> 00:14:02.041 It's a, it's a fun game for the whole family, but the government says it's 00:14:02.041 --> 00:14:03.511 actually not for the whole family. 00:14:03.511 --> 00:14:08.281 You need to have a level of maturity grounding to be able to deal with it. 00:14:08.641 --> 00:14:09.901 And I wonder if maybe. 00:14:11.146 --> 00:14:14.176 You know, 'cause what, when he was, when we were talking about 00:14:14.176 --> 00:14:17.086 Christopher Hitchens before, 'cause I mean he also died relatively young 00:14:17.326 --> 00:14:19.966 and uh, I think was fond of a drink. 00:14:20.026 --> 00:14:22.576 Uh, I dunno if he'd, it was the smoking that killed him. 00:14:22.576 --> 00:14:22.756 Yeah. 00:14:22.756 --> 00:14:23.536 Right, right, right. 00:14:23.956 --> 00:14:29.386 And, and then I think of Dawkins also though, because I mean, he hitchens, 00:14:29.386 --> 00:14:36.466 let's face it, smart guy, a really good essayist, a good speaker, a good debater. 00:14:36.676 --> 00:14:40.306 And you know, I read his, I read the collection of essays, posthumous, you 00:14:40.306 --> 00:14:44.236 know, called arguably, and I think I found something of value in every last essay. 00:14:45.076 --> 00:14:48.586 Um, and some of, uh, some of them I agreed with entirely, but he was 00:14:48.586 --> 00:14:53.146 completely wrong about the war in Iraq or you know, America's invasion of Iraq. 00:14:53.146 --> 00:14:54.406 You're talking Hitchens or Dawkins. 00:14:54.406 --> 00:14:55.036 Yeah, Hitchens. 00:14:55.036 --> 00:14:55.396 Hitchens. 00:14:55.396 --> 00:14:55.786 Yeah. 00:14:55.786 --> 00:14:55.796 Yeah. 00:14:55.796 --> 00:14:59.296 Now, meanwhile, Dawkins, I think might be the superior intellect, 00:14:59.866 --> 00:15:05.356 you know, firm grounding, academically really a really strong. 00:15:06.031 --> 00:15:09.931 Record of publication on the topic of evolution, dealing with some 00:15:09.931 --> 00:15:13.951 particularly thorny issues in there that are very hard to communicate, 00:15:14.071 --> 00:15:15.901 uh, or understand in the first place. 00:15:16.321 --> 00:15:18.721 And I think did a wonderful job in a number of books. 00:15:18.721 --> 00:15:23.761 The Selfish Gene Climbing Mount Improbable, and those are the only 00:15:23.761 --> 00:15:25.051 ones I can think of right now. 00:15:25.951 --> 00:15:31.561 But Dawkins came along at the right time for me, kind of having 00:15:31.561 --> 00:15:37.081 a not yet deconstructed religious background, but not a faith. 00:15:37.141 --> 00:15:41.491 So I didn't really experience the presence of God, but I couldn't quite get with the 00:15:41.491 --> 00:15:47.551 idea of evolution, it seemed I was still a sort of a creationist on some level. 00:15:47.551 --> 00:15:47.851 Right. 00:15:47.851 --> 00:15:48.061 Really? 00:15:48.061 --> 00:15:49.501 I've never been a creationist. 00:15:50.131 --> 00:15:50.551 Well, no. 00:15:50.551 --> 00:15:52.741 As you know, I was an unexamined creationist. 00:15:52.741 --> 00:15:54.601 So you'd never felt the presence of God? 00:15:54.781 --> 00:15:57.691 No, I had, I had at times previously. 00:15:58.351 --> 00:16:00.781 When did it, when did, when did you last feel the presence of God? 00:16:00.786 --> 00:16:01.291 No, no. 00:16:01.291 --> 00:16:03.571 That's a good, that's a good question. 00:16:03.691 --> 00:16:04.201 Um. 00:16:05.221 --> 00:16:08.641 Yeah, it's been a while, but that doesn't mean God isn't there. 00:16:08.731 --> 00:16:09.721 What age though? 00:16:10.021 --> 00:16:12.451 Because you were raised pretty strictly Hari Krishna. 00:16:13.591 --> 00:16:17.731 Well, yeah, I hadn't felt it for some time, like in my teenage years when I 00:16:17.731 --> 00:16:21.301 went to India, I didn't feel it there either and I didn't, and I started to 00:16:21.301 --> 00:16:24.811 wonder if I would and then I did feel it. 00:16:25.051 --> 00:16:26.821 Um, oh, when was that? 00:16:26.881 --> 00:16:27.811 That sounds important. 00:16:28.921 --> 00:16:35.911 Well, I was on the street in lpa, Nagar F Block in Delhi, new Delhi, 00:16:36.301 --> 00:16:42.421 and it's a recent sort of middle class neighborhood, but it's, you know, 00:16:42.421 --> 00:16:46.531 when I was first there, it seemed like an overwhelming, crazy slum. 00:16:46.531 --> 00:16:49.386 But you know, after a while I came to realize and I was very comfortable. 00:16:50.026 --> 00:16:52.786 You know, relatively orderly part of Delhi. 00:16:53.656 --> 00:16:55.096 And I felt less overwhelmed by it. 00:16:55.096 --> 00:16:56.566 I started to feel more comfortable there. 00:16:57.406 --> 00:17:00.976 And I'd been to some temples and visited some archeological sites and 00:17:00.976 --> 00:17:04.996 like I was having a nice time and I did a little bit of volunteer work. 00:17:04.996 --> 00:17:10.606 But, you know, when I went to temples, I didn't really feel God, I felt like I 00:17:10.606 --> 00:17:16.126 was in a real salesy sort of situation and, you know, oh, what's this white 00:17:16.126 --> 00:17:18.346 guy doing in like a nont tourist temple? 00:17:18.346 --> 00:17:19.696 Like, what's this all about? 00:17:20.536 --> 00:17:25.876 And so I just felt like an object of spectacle or interest to others 00:17:25.876 --> 00:17:28.216 instead of just being able to experience what was happening. 00:17:28.426 --> 00:17:30.046 I still see you like that, Sam. 00:17:30.736 --> 00:17:32.716 Oh, well, no, just walking down High Street. 00:17:32.716 --> 00:17:33.346 It's very true. 00:17:33.376 --> 00:17:37.246 And you know me, and yet I'm still an object of spectacle and interest. 00:17:37.246 --> 00:17:38.326 It's, it's very true. 00:17:38.506 --> 00:17:40.606 So you can imagine how I stuck out like a sore thumb. 00:17:40.606 --> 00:17:40.756 You did? 00:17:40.756 --> 00:17:40.906 Yeah. 00:17:41.746 --> 00:17:48.766 Plus I knew a lot of the, I kind of had a more knowledge of the local stuff than. 00:17:49.141 --> 00:17:50.641 Most people who look like me. 00:17:50.641 --> 00:17:53.641 So I was this very much doubly and object of fascination. 00:17:53.731 --> 00:17:54.031 Yeah. 00:17:54.241 --> 00:17:55.051 Why are you here? 00:17:55.501 --> 00:17:56.671 Uh, you're up to something. 00:17:56.701 --> 00:17:57.691 You know what I mean? 00:17:58.111 --> 00:17:58.981 And they weren't wrong. 00:17:58.981 --> 00:18:00.121 I just didn't know what I was up to. 00:18:00.121 --> 00:18:00.961 I couldn't tell them. 00:18:01.471 --> 00:18:04.711 But part of what I was there to discover was, well, this, this religion I'd grown 00:18:04.711 --> 00:18:09.601 up in, you know, could it resonate for me now in my twenties, mid twenties? 00:18:10.741 --> 00:18:14.371 And also my girlfriend at the time had been on an exchange, and so it was just 00:18:14.371 --> 00:18:15.991 sort of an excuse to visit finally. 00:18:16.681 --> 00:18:19.801 Anyway, so I'm wondering how my neighborhood, where a place where I 00:18:19.801 --> 00:18:21.991 felt comfortable and at home relatively. 00:18:22.171 --> 00:18:24.601 And, uh, you know, I lived there for three months and 00:18:26.866 --> 00:18:30.211 got, you know, a nodding acquaintance with a lot of the, you know, locals. 00:18:30.211 --> 00:18:35.431 And, uh, I stopped being an object of curiosity for most people after a while. 00:18:35.431 --> 00:18:35.761 Right? 00:18:36.511 --> 00:18:36.961 Anyway. 00:18:37.231 --> 00:18:39.691 But then one day the Sikhs came past. 00:18:40.066 --> 00:18:46.066 In a big procession and they were doing something that was very familiar to me. 00:18:46.486 --> 00:18:50.206 They were banging cymbals and drums and wearing orange and going down the 00:18:50.206 --> 00:18:52.186 street and they were handing out food. 00:18:52.186 --> 00:18:53.626 Now, does this all sound familiar? 00:18:53.716 --> 00:18:55.936 Mm, very Harry Krishna, right? 00:18:56.206 --> 00:18:56.956 Mm-hmm. 00:18:57.106 --> 00:18:59.446 And then I thought about it and I was like, wait a minute. 00:19:00.406 --> 00:19:01.936 I know enough about the Sikhs. 00:19:02.236 --> 00:19:02.686 Let's see. 00:19:02.686 --> 00:19:06.706 They don't worship God so much as they're kind of all about the guru, 00:19:06.706 --> 00:19:08.716 but the guru is the way to God. 00:19:09.766 --> 00:19:10.936 That's what the Hari Christian is. 00:19:11.326 --> 00:19:15.046 We're all about God, but it's the guru is is the way. 00:19:16.726 --> 00:19:22.276 Uh, and we do the food distribution on Sundays and you know, well also 00:19:22.276 --> 00:19:26.356 every day of the week in the city and we do these processions and all this, 00:19:26.356 --> 00:19:32.266 and I'm like, Hmm, did we just rip off the Sikhs whole, the whole jam, right? 00:19:32.356 --> 00:19:33.586 I think they kind of did. 00:19:34.426 --> 00:19:38.116 But that these were all the thoughts that I had later at the time. 00:19:39.376 --> 00:19:41.836 I was like, oh, how good's this? 00:19:41.896 --> 00:19:42.616 I love this. 00:19:42.856 --> 00:19:43.876 These people are great. 00:19:44.776 --> 00:19:51.586 And they handed me a cookie and they were smiling and I ate it and I felt good. 00:19:51.826 --> 00:19:54.676 And I went along down the street with 'em for a bit and I was like, I think I 00:19:54.676 --> 00:19:56.416 even vaguely recognized these Bud Johns. 00:19:56.416 --> 00:19:57.886 They're a little different actually. 00:19:57.886 --> 00:20:00.556 You, they're not by Johns technically, but you know, whatever. 00:20:01.666 --> 00:20:06.406 The mantras, the hymns and, but it's kind of a fun, it's a festive atmosphere. 00:20:06.736 --> 00:20:11.728 And I felt really connected to these people and they felt, that I felt 00:20:11.728 --> 00:20:15.358 that, and they felt, you know, it was a, it was a very natural and 00:20:15.358 --> 00:20:17.638 automatic thing and everybody got it. 00:20:18.748 --> 00:20:19.003 And so. 00:20:20.428 --> 00:20:22.738 I felt moved by the spirit. 00:20:22.978 --> 00:20:23.338 Right. 00:20:23.368 --> 00:20:24.058 On that occasion. 00:20:24.088 --> 00:20:24.178 Mm-hmm. 00:20:24.448 --> 00:20:27.058 So the, the Christians would describe that as fellowship. 00:20:27.418 --> 00:20:27.688 Yeah. 00:20:27.688 --> 00:20:29.998 I went to the Golden Temple in Amate, so, and hung out 00:20:29.998 --> 00:20:31.198 with the Sikhs you've been to. 00:20:31.198 --> 00:20:32.968 And I was, I've not been to the Golden Temple. 00:20:32.968 --> 00:20:36.688 I was, um, pretty strictly atheist at that point, but I felt 00:20:36.928 --> 00:20:38.908 something, I mean, I went to India. 00:20:39.598 --> 00:20:40.978 I was drawn to India. 00:20:40.978 --> 00:20:42.568 I tried to get there when I was 19. 00:20:42.568 --> 00:20:45.148 Didn't make it past the Ambassador Hotel in Bangkok. 00:20:45.148 --> 00:20:45.838 In Bangkok, yeah. 00:20:45.838 --> 00:20:49.798 Which I've told on this podcast before episode nine or 10 maybe. 00:20:49.828 --> 00:20:51.448 The Ambassador Hotel episode. 00:20:51.508 --> 00:20:51.628 Mm-hmm. 00:20:52.084 --> 00:20:53.374 You never got past Bangkok. 00:20:53.374 --> 00:20:53.674 Yeah. 00:20:54.154 --> 00:20:54.574 Yeah. 00:20:54.574 --> 00:20:56.084 And then I finally got to India and I. 00:20:56.614 --> 00:20:59.944 I would say when I got to the Golden Temple, it was such a good vibe. 00:21:00.304 --> 00:21:01.564 It seems like a cool place. 00:21:01.624 --> 00:21:04.534 Seism has to be one of the cooler religions. 00:21:04.894 --> 00:21:06.184 I think it's very interesting. 00:21:06.574 --> 00:21:09.724 It's a more recent religion, but it has ancient roots. 00:21:09.814 --> 00:21:10.954 You realize, oh, okay. 00:21:10.954 --> 00:21:12.634 It's drawing on a number of traditions. 00:21:12.754 --> 00:21:16.474 You know, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, it's jainism. 00:21:16.474 --> 00:21:19.384 It's bringing together all the major strands of Indian religion, 00:21:20.134 --> 00:21:22.774 uh, or the religion of, you know, that part of the world I should say. 00:21:23.524 --> 00:21:28.264 And those traditions tap into others broad, more broadly. 00:21:28.264 --> 00:21:30.814 So, and then you find Sikhs all over the world. 00:21:30.874 --> 00:21:31.324 Yeah. 00:21:31.324 --> 00:21:34.654 And with temples all over the world, and anyone can come. 00:21:34.864 --> 00:21:35.374 Yes. 00:21:35.464 --> 00:21:37.534 It was a very open, very welcoming. 00:21:37.534 --> 00:21:39.154 They fed us a meal. 00:21:39.244 --> 00:21:39.424 Yep. 00:21:39.604 --> 00:21:42.664 Which they do for everyone who goes there, which is pretty extraordinary. 00:21:42.664 --> 00:21:43.144 That's right. 00:21:43.144 --> 00:21:44.374 They've made this commitment. 00:21:44.584 --> 00:21:48.094 And that's where, I don't know what Dawkins and Hitchens would say about 00:21:48.094 --> 00:21:52.414 religion when it, when you see it like in a beautiful building with people 00:21:52.414 --> 00:21:54.514 being kind and you feel a warm vibe. 00:21:54.514 --> 00:21:57.784 And I was still an atheist, but I felt the vibe, you know? 00:21:58.324 --> 00:22:02.134 Well, they would feel some, they would find something cynical to say, perhaps. 00:22:02.134 --> 00:22:06.364 And what would they say about two guys in Thornbury in 2025 00:22:06.814 --> 00:22:08.344 talking about the Da de Ching? 00:22:08.944 --> 00:22:12.754 Like, why are we talking about this when ev you know, there's a war in Ukraine 00:22:12.754 --> 00:22:17.614 and a war in Gaza and Well, it's a, it's a like climate change and Sure. 00:22:17.674 --> 00:22:19.774 Like why are we talking about the talf. 00:22:20.749 --> 00:22:22.609 You know, I'll give Dawkins a little bit of credit. 00:22:22.669 --> 00:22:26.389 I don't think he'd bother doing the what about him at us and 00:22:26.389 --> 00:22:29.029 telling, telling us we should think more about Ukraine or whatever. 00:22:29.449 --> 00:22:33.049 But what he would say when did, what about is in peak about 10 years ago? 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:33.229 Yeah. 00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:35.119 That was a, that was huge, wasn't it? 00:22:35.749 --> 00:22:36.979 It was probably peak Twitter. 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:37.669 I'm feeling like. 00:22:37.699 --> 00:22:39.589 Yeah, it was definitely a very Twitter thing. 00:22:39.589 --> 00:22:39.799 Peak. 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:40.699 Twitter was peak. 00:22:40.699 --> 00:22:43.939 What about, we've seen a lot of what about on other platforms, but 00:22:43.939 --> 00:22:45.469 I think Twitter was the number one. 00:22:45.499 --> 00:22:45.769 Yeah. 00:22:45.769 --> 00:22:47.389 Like the home ground of what? 00:22:47.394 --> 00:22:47.634 About what? 00:22:47.639 --> 00:22:48.049 Baptism. 00:22:48.049 --> 00:22:49.669 I hadn't thought about that for a while. 00:22:49.699 --> 00:22:50.059 Yeah. 00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:53.449 And occasionally I still see the phrase because when you catch people doing 00:22:53.449 --> 00:22:55.369 it, it's like, yeah, do you know what? 00:22:55.369 --> 00:22:57.589 I'm glad we called that out 10 years ago. 00:22:57.859 --> 00:22:58.459 Yeah. 00:22:58.459 --> 00:23:00.139 It's like it is a shitty way to argue things. 00:23:00.199 --> 00:23:01.969 It is a shitty, yeah. 00:23:01.969 --> 00:23:03.559 It's not a good conversation. 00:23:03.649 --> 00:23:04.459 No, it isn't. 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:05.329 And do you know what? 00:23:05.614 --> 00:23:07.564 You can propose a change of topic. 00:23:07.894 --> 00:23:11.224 You can say, personally, I feel that this topic is more 00:23:11.224 --> 00:23:12.544 important and let's change that. 00:23:12.544 --> 00:23:15.874 But as a method of invalidating whatever is being discussed, I 00:23:15.874 --> 00:23:17.284 don't think it's very satisfactory. 00:23:17.554 --> 00:23:21.454 And I think what Dawkins would go with instead, I think Hitchens too would 00:23:21.454 --> 00:23:25.714 be, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and do my hitchings impression. 00:23:26.434 --> 00:23:30.034 Well undoubtedly, you know, uh, having a meaningful experience. 00:23:30.034 --> 00:23:32.134 And that's, I won't take that away from you. 00:23:33.094 --> 00:23:36.904 Uh, but your conclusions about what the meaning of this meaningful 00:23:36.904 --> 00:23:38.554 experience, one, one could debate. 00:23:39.154 --> 00:23:42.664 And in fact, I would insist, I would insist on debating it. 00:23:42.754 --> 00:23:47.404 If you were to propose that I accept the presence of God based on the 00:23:47.404 --> 00:23:51.874 fact that you've had this meaningful experience that moved you in this moment. 00:23:51.904 --> 00:23:53.974 I would say that is not a sufficient argument. 00:23:55.084 --> 00:23:56.374 That's what Hitchens would say. 00:23:56.554 --> 00:24:01.114 But I reflecting now think God was at the Golden Temple Amateur. 00:24:01.879 --> 00:24:03.589 And I experienced God right. 00:24:03.589 --> 00:24:04.699 With those people who fed me. 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:05.149 Yes. 00:24:05.154 --> 00:24:06.259 And I think, and it took me years. 00:24:06.919 --> 00:24:07.159 Yeah. 00:24:07.159 --> 00:24:09.799 But I was already an alcoholic and I already needed help, 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:11.119 but I didn't know it yet. 00:24:11.209 --> 00:24:11.629 You know? 00:24:11.809 --> 00:24:12.889 That's interesting. 00:24:12.979 --> 00:24:16.399 And, and of course, the people that are greeted sometimes with the least 00:24:16.399 --> 00:24:21.499 charity and the most, uh, you know, a person you would describe that way, 00:24:21.649 --> 00:24:25.579 and yourself and a person who doesn't even know they're in need of help, 00:24:25.969 --> 00:24:27.319 you know, that's very interesting. 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.329 And I think that that's part of why religion exists now, Dawkins 00:24:32.329 --> 00:24:35.239 in his later years, you know, what he would say about that experience. 00:24:36.739 --> 00:24:37.579 Ah, Joe, yes. 00:24:37.579 --> 00:24:44.329 You know, I, as much as I want to take up the matter of whether this phenomenology, 00:24:44.389 --> 00:24:47.539 the, you know, points to any firm conclusions about gold or not, which, 00:24:47.539 --> 00:24:51.919 you know, obviously I won't accept, but in my later years, I, I have found 00:24:51.919 --> 00:24:57.204 myself, uh, I must admit I'm drawn to cultural anglicanism and I realize that. 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.859 It's, it's the culture in which I was raised and the de 00:25:00.859 --> 00:25:02.239 it does have a meaning to me. 00:25:02.239 --> 00:25:07.279 And I, I, I won't reject that purely on the grounds that I don't 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.629 have a personal belief in God. 00:25:08.629 --> 00:25:13.549 And neither does the Archbishop of Canterbury, but he still believes 00:25:14.269 --> 00:25:18.049 correctly, or Rowan Williams the Pryor, that this is still a 00:25:18.049 --> 00:25:21.259 tremendously valuable institution. 00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:22.549 And I have come to see that. 00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:22.669 Mm-hmm. 00:25:22.879 --> 00:25:27.109 And of course it has its problems, but it brings a lot of meaning to people's 00:25:27.109 --> 00:25:29.269 lives and it does useful things also. 00:25:29.749 --> 00:25:33.819 And it gives out food to people and, you know, so yeah, I think they've both 00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:37.929 got a good point to make, but I, but it doesn't really prove or disprove anything. 00:25:37.959 --> 00:25:41.409 'cause that's my retort to both of their arguments is when I came 00:25:41.409 --> 00:25:45.969 into addiction recovery circles and I needed to find a higher power. 00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:46.119 Mm-hmm. 00:25:46.539 --> 00:25:53.979 The line I was pointed to in the book was, who am I to say there is no God indeed. 00:25:54.189 --> 00:26:00.159 And that was my conclusion at some point, who am I to say that there is no God Yes. 00:26:00.159 --> 00:26:01.509 Like the amount of ego. 00:26:01.509 --> 00:26:01.599 Yes. 00:26:01.629 --> 00:26:06.129 And people like Dawkins and Hitchens have the ego Oh, very much. 00:26:06.129 --> 00:26:07.029 And Sam Harris. 00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:07.389 Yes. 00:26:07.419 --> 00:26:10.749 Like all those new atheists, they didn't lack, they haven't lacked for 00:26:10.749 --> 00:26:15.759 ego, you know, so, and certainty, more importantly, I think that's 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.169 their greater crime in many ways. 00:26:17.348 --> 00:26:21.758 I mean, I think the ego leads to the certainty, you know, but there's a. 00:26:22.238 --> 00:26:25.388 And there's a brittleness to it because of course, for every brilliant 00:26:25.388 --> 00:26:28.748 argument the Hitchens and Dawkins made, and there are some great clips 00:26:28.748 --> 00:26:30.068 where they really do tear it up. 00:26:30.398 --> 00:26:32.558 They spit, they spitfire, they drop bars. 00:26:33.518 --> 00:26:35.258 Uh, they've got some bops on the net. 00:26:35.258 --> 00:26:35.648 Right? 00:26:35.648 --> 00:26:37.028 But here's the problem. 00:26:37.748 --> 00:26:40.028 Does it actually convince anybody? 00:26:40.238 --> 00:26:45.368 Either way, it's like whatever your prior position, whatever your leaning 00:26:45.368 --> 00:26:48.968 or feeling was prior, it's, it's kind of, kind of go to work on that. 00:26:49.508 --> 00:26:51.938 And I'm not saying they never changed anybody's mind, but I 00:26:51.938 --> 00:26:54.818 think that that might've been a process that was already happening. 00:26:55.388 --> 00:26:59.648 And the, and the problem of like the phenomenology of that experience, 00:26:59.648 --> 00:27:02.618 the feeling moved by the spirit, like we've both had this experience 00:27:02.618 --> 00:27:09.848 with Sikh people that I don't reject the feeling I had about that. 00:27:09.848 --> 00:27:10.958 And I don't, yes, but I don't. 00:27:11.193 --> 00:27:13.328 It was the last time you felt the presence of God. 00:27:13.358 --> 00:27:14.528 No, it's not The last time. 00:27:14.528 --> 00:27:17.918 A few months later in South India, I. 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.330 See, I often did not feel this inner temple. 00:27:20.330 --> 00:27:20.600 Right. 00:27:20.600 --> 00:27:25.220 In fact, I didn't, I think often felt very anti or unreligious 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:26.780 feelings in temples often 00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:30.800 was disappointed how I felt. 00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:33.920 Or disappointed by some aspect of the experience or just often just the 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:39.890 intense drive to monetize whatever was, you know, like the presence of tourists 00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:42.830 in these places, which, you know, is understandable, but it gets in the way. 00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:43.400 Right. 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:51.380 Anyway, so there was this temple in South India in not Oh God, ma yeah. 00:27:51.380 --> 00:27:57.682 In um, Rey, there's some, a lot of amazing temples in the south. 00:27:57.682 --> 00:28:02.392 This is just, uh, it's, you know, maybe in the top five in terms of grandeur 00:28:02.392 --> 00:28:04.162 and the number of visitors it gets. 00:28:05.270 --> 00:28:09.055 but I was not allowed into the sanctum sanc doum, you know, the inner. 00:28:10.610 --> 00:28:15.110 Space I was allowed into the outer spaces and the, you know, middle and 00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:19.680 towards the inner, but there was a chamber at the heart of this, I don't 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.180 know, thousand year old building. 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.090 But religion's being practiced there a lot longer than that. 00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:29.374 And it's an extraordinary place I highly recommend visiting. 00:28:29.794 --> 00:28:35.854 I did not get bothered by the usual tourist stuff after a point. 00:28:36.244 --> 00:28:41.134 Like I was just allowed to just experience the space without being hassled. 00:28:41.884 --> 00:28:48.814 And the, the walls were black with and greasy from all the GI lamps, you know, 00:28:48.814 --> 00:28:52.414 you know, and like, you know, you can't have electric light in this place. 00:28:52.414 --> 00:28:55.054 It's not the d it's just not what they, they're just doing what they've 00:28:55.054 --> 00:28:56.794 been doing there for a long time. 00:28:56.794 --> 00:29:00.673 Things are done the same way, more or less, So you've just, I noticed the 00:29:00.673 --> 00:29:04.633 grace of the walls and so the, and like the blackness from the smoke and 00:29:05.833 --> 00:29:07.483 gh, you know, like clarified butter. 00:29:07.603 --> 00:29:11.293 It's a particular smell and I strongly associate it with 00:29:12.103 --> 00:29:15.823 religious experience and worship. 00:29:16.273 --> 00:29:16.633 Right. 00:29:17.293 --> 00:29:21.853 And so I already starting to feel in irreverent mood, and I was 00:29:21.853 --> 00:29:25.813 feeling like not the weight of the centuries before me, but you know 00:29:25.813 --> 00:29:31.093 what I mean, like the mm, the, the presence of the centuries before me. 00:29:31.093 --> 00:29:31.103 Mm-hmm. 00:29:31.183 --> 00:29:34.753 I wasn't feeling weighed down by it or oppressed or odd or 00:29:34.753 --> 00:29:38.510 anything, but I just felt a kind of hush and a reverence, you know? 00:29:39.080 --> 00:29:44.150 And, and I was, there was these little alcoves with different deities in them. 00:29:44.840 --> 00:29:47.900 It's very, you know, hinduism's, very intensely polytheistic, but. 00:29:49.055 --> 00:29:52.385 The branch of Hinduism am I come from Vaishna, GOIA, Vaishna. 00:29:52.385 --> 00:29:57.155 They believe in, you know, one God to, you know, rule them all, Lord of the Rings, 00:29:58.115 --> 00:30:03.575 but they're all manifestations of the one divinity, as are every human being. 00:30:03.575 --> 00:30:06.515 Every human being's a manifestation of that one divinity, right? 00:30:07.235 --> 00:30:10.745 So you are a little piece of it and there's a little piece of the 00:30:10.745 --> 00:30:12.815 divinity in each one of us, et cetera. 00:30:13.505 --> 00:30:14.735 Part and parcel. 00:30:15.575 --> 00:30:18.005 I wasn't thinking about any of that though, but I was kind of 00:30:18.005 --> 00:30:22.505 feeling it on some level and then I was just kind of taking it in and 00:30:22.505 --> 00:30:23.765 just like really taking my time. 00:30:23.765 --> 00:30:24.275 It was great. 00:30:24.815 --> 00:30:28.955 And then, you know, into the, into the chamber inside that, you know, you got 00:30:28.955 --> 00:30:32.345 the outer chamber, the middle chamber, then there's kind of another one inside 00:30:32.345 --> 00:30:35.675 that I think, and then there's the tiny little one at the heart of it. 00:30:36.635 --> 00:30:38.705 And I was not allowed in there. 00:30:39.058 --> 00:30:39.718 Up to that point. 00:30:39.718 --> 00:30:40.948 I was not treated like a tourist. 00:30:41.323 --> 00:30:44.803 Or a local, just treated neutrally. 00:30:44.803 --> 00:30:48.583 But then when it came to this point, it was like, no, no, you can't come in here. 00:30:49.633 --> 00:30:53.473 And I was like, I was like, okay, I expected to be stopped before now. 00:30:53.995 --> 00:30:57.865 And people were pressing into this small space and there was just such 00:30:58.225 --> 00:31:06.175 a vibe, so much atmosphere, and people really feeling it and, and 00:31:06.175 --> 00:31:08.005 I was just content to remain there. 00:31:08.905 --> 00:31:12.030 And then it was on my way just kind of observing for a while, and then I 00:31:12.035 --> 00:31:16.735 was on my way out and then I stopped again and I just really took it in and 00:31:16.735 --> 00:31:19.855 I was just like, I just felt, you know? 00:31:20.275 --> 00:31:20.905 You felt it? 00:31:20.995 --> 00:31:21.265 Yeah. 00:31:22.135 --> 00:31:22.495 Mm. 00:31:22.705 --> 00:31:23.365 I felt. 00:31:24.040 --> 00:31:26.170 This ancient presence. 00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:26.800 Mm-hmm. 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:28.150 That's the one. 00:31:28.150 --> 00:31:29.620 It's very hard to describe. 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.120 Yeah. 00:31:31.810 --> 00:31:32.260 And you know what? 00:31:32.260 --> 00:31:34.005 The ancient presence, the ancient, ancient presence. 00:31:34.005 --> 00:31:35.890 Well, that takes us back to the passage really, doesn't it? 00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:38.740 I think the ancient presence is probably the before all the ancestors. 00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:38.800 Yeah. 00:31:38.800 --> 00:31:39.850 That's the best way. 00:31:39.850 --> 00:31:40.720 Before all the answers. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.550 I've never said those two words together. 00:31:43.120 --> 00:31:43.420 God. 00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:43.570 Yeah. 00:31:43.570 --> 00:31:47.560 It's a good, I think that captures the exact feeling, and 00:31:47.560 --> 00:31:49.390 I take it as proof of something. 00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:50.200 Mm-hmm. 00:31:50.230 --> 00:31:54.490 And I, I couldn't tell you exactly what, but I think that that's what 00:31:54.490 --> 00:31:59.920 this chapter is kind of pointing to, that, you know, like, you know, you 00:32:00.215 --> 00:32:04.115 walk into this place, like India's a stressful place to travel in, right? 00:32:04.175 --> 00:32:04.415 Yeah. 00:32:04.415 --> 00:32:05.225 I found it very stressful. 00:32:05.825 --> 00:32:09.095 And you walk, you walk into a space like this, you're still in 00:32:09.095 --> 00:32:12.545 hassled tourist mode for a while. 00:32:12.815 --> 00:32:15.215 You've kind of, kind of give yourself time and I. 00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:17.600 And I just didn't really get that opportunity. 00:32:17.870 --> 00:32:21.830 And I feel like maybe if I was giving myself time more often in the right 00:32:21.830 --> 00:32:26.810 sort of space, and of course the right sort of company, 'cause you know, the 00:32:26.810 --> 00:32:28.940 confirmation of others isn't important. 00:32:29.570 --> 00:32:33.080 But I've gotta tell you, Sam, God is not trapped in a building in India. 00:32:33.230 --> 00:32:35.900 No, God is everywhere. 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:36.440 No, that. 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:37.580 Well, that's exactly right. 00:32:37.790 --> 00:32:43.700 And the, but the reason we create these spaces is to focus that experience 00:32:43.700 --> 00:32:45.710 and to, to sharpen it a little. 00:32:45.710 --> 00:32:50.510 But of course, you know, proper, proper Paul line, Christians will tell 00:32:50.510 --> 00:32:53.780 you, you know, wherever you gather and remember me, I am present, right? 00:32:53.810 --> 00:32:54.110 Mm-hmm. 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:59.630 You know, then I, I think that that is, that seems as true as any other statement. 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:04.940 And certainly these huge buildings, they cost a lot to maintain and, and they 00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:06.620 sort of take on this life of their own. 00:33:06.620 --> 00:33:10.400 And sometimes it becomes about the institution and not about. 00:33:11.465 --> 00:33:12.875 The object of the whole thing. 00:33:12.905 --> 00:33:13.205 Yeah. 00:33:13.205 --> 00:33:15.755 I think this verse is pointing to something kind of more primitive. 00:33:15.755 --> 00:33:22.025 And for my spiritual adventure of the last 10 years, I haven't felt the need 00:33:22.025 --> 00:33:27.185 to enter a church, join a religion, or into a church or physically or 00:33:27.185 --> 00:33:30.845 metaphorically go to a temple, or you're not gonna join a little fellowship, do 00:33:30.845 --> 00:33:32.975 some Bible study in someone's front room. 00:33:33.725 --> 00:33:36.335 Well, I have joined a fellowship, I guess. 00:33:36.425 --> 00:33:36.545 Mm-hmm. 00:33:36.845 --> 00:33:40.925 But I can't really talk about that on the show, and it has scripture, but Yeah. 00:33:40.925 --> 00:33:41.375 Yeah. 00:33:41.705 --> 00:33:44.525 But whenever we gather, I would say that God is present. 00:33:45.695 --> 00:33:46.265 For sure. 00:33:46.715 --> 00:33:51.995 And it's, it's, well, and it's the, it's the, it's the presence of, it's the 00:33:51.995 --> 00:33:56.255 presence of other believers and people that will work with you in your belief 00:33:56.255 --> 00:33:58.385 or your non-belief as the case may be. 00:33:58.475 --> 00:34:03.185 And times when you find that you had a crisis of faith a little while ago. 00:34:03.545 --> 00:34:04.265 Yeah. 00:34:04.445 --> 00:34:07.535 And the cure for it was just to double down, you know? 00:34:07.595 --> 00:34:08.525 Yeah. 00:34:08.525 --> 00:34:12.635 I, I'm, I'm still an analytical person and an overthinker, so 00:34:12.635 --> 00:34:14.285 I'm gonna go through periods of. 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:16.670 A crisis of faith. 00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:20.330 But I mean, I think my current spiritual advisor said that even 00:34:20.330 --> 00:34:22.190 Jesus was agnostic a couple of times. 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:23.030 Yeah. 00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:27.560 And as I said, Archbishop Rowan Williamson agnostic. 00:34:27.830 --> 00:34:29.780 He didn't say atheist, but he said agnostic. 00:34:30.290 --> 00:34:33.950 Because I came to that, I can't remember when I had that, those words came into 00:34:33.950 --> 00:34:40.070 my mind, but I, I was like, yeah, who am I to say God doesn't exist often? 00:34:40.075 --> 00:34:44.510 It's a, it's a, and when I think about the most convinced atheists, 00:34:44.510 --> 00:34:47.780 I know they are the people who would say that God doesn't exist because 00:34:48.110 --> 00:34:49.820 they're so sure of themselves, Sam. 00:34:49.850 --> 00:34:51.770 Well, they take themselves as their own authority. 00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:52.220 Mm. 00:34:52.220 --> 00:34:56.390 And and this is what offends some religious people who believe strongly 00:34:56.390 --> 00:34:59.990 in the idea of taking some other authority as not just technically 00:34:59.990 --> 00:35:02.150 correct, but the literally the method. 00:35:02.660 --> 00:35:06.620 That's the, how you get the benefit is to accept another authority 00:35:07.040 --> 00:35:08.510 and you that it doesn't work. 00:35:08.540 --> 00:35:08.840 Yes. 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:09.650 Surrender, right? 00:35:09.650 --> 00:35:09.830 Yes. 00:35:10.005 --> 00:35:10.165 Surrender. 00:35:10.370 --> 00:35:12.920 And that if you try to navigate life purely on your own. 00:35:13.430 --> 00:35:18.410 Terms, try as you might, you can be the best person in the world and, you 00:35:18.410 --> 00:35:23.540 know, do the best work on yourself and go to therapy and do exercise and yoga 00:35:23.540 --> 00:35:30.110 and, and, uh, journal and, uh, read the right philosophy and maintain, you 00:35:30.110 --> 00:35:34.520 know, a good set of rounded friendships where there's an equal give and take. 00:35:35.150 --> 00:35:38.870 And you can do all that and still not be the, the full authority on everything. 00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:41.630 And, and I mean, I guess that's the point of having, partly the point of 00:35:41.630 --> 00:35:44.750 having those friendships, et cetera, and referring to the work of others, 00:35:45.020 --> 00:35:46.820 you know, in writing or pods, et cetera. 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:50.930 I've very much let myself be guided and influenced by others quite 00:35:50.930 --> 00:35:55.700 consciously, but it's quite another thing to, but I'm the arbiter on what 00:35:55.700 --> 00:35:59.330 I'll accept and reject in terms of the teachings or the thoughts of others. 00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:04.040 But the idea of surrender is way beyond that. 00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:06.380 It is not allowing yourself to be influenced. 00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:10.940 It is not, um, not taking an oppositional stance, just, just, you know, I'll, 00:36:10.940 --> 00:36:12.320 I'll, I'll allow this to happen. 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:13.550 I won't reject it outta hand. 00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:16.130 It's not even like actively seeking it out. 00:36:16.130 --> 00:36:22.009 It's just like, nope, I, I declare that I shall obey this thing. 00:36:22.249 --> 00:36:25.849 Which is really something, you know, normally what are we obeying? 00:36:25.849 --> 00:36:26.269 You know? 00:36:26.689 --> 00:36:30.019 Well the Christians would say, well mammon that, that's who 00:36:30.019 --> 00:36:31.549 we're all serving, isn't it? 00:36:31.579 --> 00:36:31.849 Yeah. 00:36:31.849 --> 00:36:36.718 I mean, theoretically I've surrendered, I've surrendered to God and now 00:36:36.718 --> 00:36:38.248 I'm trying to do God's will. 00:36:38.818 --> 00:36:41.638 Well, 'cause that's what follows from surrender, isn't it? 00:36:42.178 --> 00:36:48.808 And what God's will is isn't often clear, but what God's will isn't. 00:36:48.898 --> 00:36:49.288 Yeah. 00:36:49.678 --> 00:36:51.148 Is almost always clear. 00:36:51.178 --> 00:36:51.538 Yeah. 00:36:51.808 --> 00:36:54.928 So for the last, I would say month, I agree. 00:36:54.928 --> 00:36:57.238 I agree entirely with that since I've had my new spiritual advisor. 00:36:57.238 --> 00:36:57.328 Mm-hmm. 00:36:58.183 --> 00:37:04.213 I've been playing with this concept of just doing, I already surrendered 00:37:04.213 --> 00:37:07.873 nearly 10 years ago, but I seem to forgot that that surrender happened. 00:37:07.993 --> 00:37:10.423 Ah, the ego covers these things over, doesn't it? 00:37:10.453 --> 00:37:10.873 Yeah. 00:37:10.873 --> 00:37:14.683 So I've still been trying to control things that I can't possibly control. 00:37:14.683 --> 00:37:19.543 Like even scientifically, I cannot, no matter how rational, like no matter 00:37:19.543 --> 00:37:23.293 how you look at it, rationally, I can't control a lot of the things that 00:37:23.293 --> 00:37:25.063 my mind tries to get me to control. 00:37:25.063 --> 00:37:25.363 Right? 00:37:25.393 --> 00:37:25.813 Yes. 00:37:26.143 --> 00:37:28.153 So I've gotta surrender those things. 00:37:28.213 --> 00:37:28.423 Yes. 00:37:28.423 --> 00:37:33.613 But then it's very helpful to have this concept of God's will, because what I've 00:37:33.613 --> 00:37:37.453 always had, and I don't know about you, Sam, but I've always had a conscience. 00:37:38.023 --> 00:37:38.443 Sure. 00:37:38.563 --> 00:37:41.383 So I've always known whether you are atheist or not. 00:37:41.443 --> 00:37:42.133 That's right. 00:37:42.133 --> 00:37:44.053 As an atheist, I had a conscience. 00:37:44.143 --> 00:37:44.233 Mm-hmm. 00:37:44.683 --> 00:37:48.223 And now I get to bring it in as a mm-hmm. 00:37:48.583 --> 00:37:52.873 Believer and put it to work and to try and stick to it. 00:37:54.103 --> 00:37:54.943 It's, um. 00:37:56.428 --> 00:37:59.428 It's really helping, it's really helping my relationships. 00:37:59.428 --> 00:38:00.538 It's helping my mm-hmm. 00:38:00.988 --> 00:38:01.978 Peace of mind. 00:38:02.008 --> 00:38:08.248 Um, I'm, but I, I mean, it's gonna make me what my dad would've thought 00:38:08.248 --> 00:38:09.898 of as his real goodie two shoes. 00:38:09.983 --> 00:38:13.258 'cause I'm not gonna, you'll never be a goodie two shoes because 00:38:13.263 --> 00:38:15.658 I'm not gonna, like, in the final sense, I'm not gonna steal, I'm 00:38:15.658 --> 00:38:17.878 not gonna lie, I'm not gonna cheat. 00:38:17.938 --> 00:38:18.748 I'm, yeah. 00:38:18.778 --> 00:38:21.988 You know, if I'm gonna do God's will in every moment, then I'm 00:38:21.988 --> 00:38:24.058 gonna be quite a different person. 00:38:24.958 --> 00:38:26.068 Well, no, of course. 00:38:26.128 --> 00:38:29.038 Uh, well, actually, well, but no, but isn't this an interesting 00:38:30.178 --> 00:38:31.558 question you've raised? 00:38:31.858 --> 00:38:35.098 If I follow God's will, will I be a different person to, you 00:38:35.098 --> 00:38:36.418 know, who I was when I was 20? 00:38:36.418 --> 00:38:39.748 Or leaving aside the, just the process of maturity. 00:38:39.748 --> 00:38:40.168 Right. 00:38:40.387 --> 00:38:42.427 and just bitter experience that you've learned from. 00:38:42.427 --> 00:38:42.787 Right. 00:38:42.937 --> 00:38:46.867 But aside from that, like all else being equal, right. 00:38:47.017 --> 00:38:47.887 Would you be. 00:38:48.667 --> 00:38:49.267 Different. 00:38:49.477 --> 00:38:49.717 Okay. 00:38:49.717 --> 00:38:53.407 Well, your answer to that is yes, at least to some degree for the last month, 00:38:53.407 --> 00:38:55.267 I've done certain things differently. 00:38:55.387 --> 00:38:55.507 Mm-hmm. 00:38:56.977 --> 00:38:57.397 Yeah. 00:38:57.667 --> 00:38:59.917 Because when I go to do the thing that's not, well, I've 00:38:59.917 --> 00:39:00.847 noticed a difference in you. 00:39:00.847 --> 00:39:01.147 Yeah. 00:39:01.537 --> 00:39:05.617 Because when I go to do the thing that's not God's will, you 00:39:05.622 --> 00:39:07.927 know, I, I don't You feel it. 00:39:07.987 --> 00:39:08.527 Yes. 00:39:08.527 --> 00:39:09.217 And you don't. 00:39:09.427 --> 00:39:11.437 And everyone has a conscience. 00:39:11.497 --> 00:39:12.427 Well, nearly everyone. 00:39:12.547 --> 00:39:18.007 Um, and Dawkins and Hitchens argued passionately that, you 00:39:18.007 --> 00:39:21.967 know, the believers did not have, uh, a monopoly on conscience. 00:39:21.972 --> 00:39:22.447 Yes, that's right. 00:39:22.447 --> 00:39:23.167 Or morality. 00:39:23.317 --> 00:39:23.917 I agree with that. 00:39:23.917 --> 00:39:24.517 I agree with that. 00:39:24.817 --> 00:39:26.167 I, I, I, yeah. 00:39:26.167 --> 00:39:27.817 And I don't think there's any sense arguing you have, 00:39:27.997 --> 00:39:29.257 we all have a conscience. 00:39:29.407 --> 00:39:29.827 That's right. 00:39:29.827 --> 00:39:32.467 And I don't think there's any, unless apart from sociopaths perhaps. 00:39:32.587 --> 00:39:36.187 Um, but even some of them it is said sociopaths and 00:39:36.187 --> 00:39:37.472 psychopaths, are they psychopaths? 00:39:37.472 --> 00:39:38.197 I thinks that's right. 00:39:38.197 --> 00:39:40.057 Sociopaths can actually have a conscience. 00:39:40.117 --> 00:39:43.987 Um, it's a complicated thing and it's debated, but Yeah. 00:39:44.407 --> 00:39:47.197 But when it comes to, you know, 99% of us. 00:39:48.367 --> 00:39:54.277 It's pretty clear that nearly everybody has at least some notion of right and 00:39:54.277 --> 00:39:56.407 wrong that isn't just held intellectually. 00:39:56.407 --> 00:39:56.707 Right. 00:39:56.707 --> 00:39:59.437 So we are, you know, laws or rules, but no, no. 00:39:59.437 --> 00:40:01.747 Some sort of conviction that's coming from within. 00:40:01.747 --> 00:40:02.107 Right. 00:40:02.467 --> 00:40:04.537 And yeah, I shouldn't speak for anyone else. 00:40:04.537 --> 00:40:06.067 That's always been my experience. 00:40:06.097 --> 00:40:06.487 No, no. 00:40:06.487 --> 00:40:10.537 I, I think this is most, I mean, I mean, I've always had a strong sense, I 00:40:10.537 --> 00:40:11.617 mean, a lot of people right and wrong. 00:40:11.617 --> 00:40:17.317 And when I was like destroying myself with alcohol, I knew that I, you knew. 00:40:17.557 --> 00:40:20.737 Now I would say I was going against God, yes. 00:40:20.737 --> 00:40:23.377 I was destroying creation. 00:40:23.407 --> 00:40:27.531 Well, well, I would, I would point you to well, my understanding of 00:40:27.531 --> 00:40:32.841 Paul's formulation of sin, which is not to break the rules, but to miss 00:40:32.841 --> 00:40:35.181 the mark, to fail to love others. 00:40:35.211 --> 00:40:35.871 I love that. 00:40:35.871 --> 00:40:37.491 To sin is to miss the mark. 00:40:37.521 --> 00:40:38.001 Yes. 00:40:38.001 --> 00:40:38.521 And, and to, yeah. 00:40:39.531 --> 00:40:40.971 But see, it's interesting, isn't it? 00:40:40.971 --> 00:40:43.906 Because what's the other word for the dao is the way Yes. 00:40:43.926 --> 00:40:44.691 In that quote. 00:40:44.691 --> 00:40:48.201 So to mi, so sin is to miss the way, the way Yeah. 00:40:48.351 --> 00:40:49.191 Is God's will. 00:40:49.311 --> 00:40:49.731 Yes. 00:40:49.941 --> 00:40:50.691 Can I say that? 00:40:50.751 --> 00:40:51.591 That's that. 00:40:51.591 --> 00:40:54.921 I think that that's what this verse, so I can be a Daoist. 00:40:54.951 --> 00:40:55.221 Yeah. 00:40:55.311 --> 00:40:58.521 And follow God's will, but I'd call it something else. 00:40:58.791 --> 00:40:59.151 Yes. 00:40:59.151 --> 00:41:02.751 But I would know I would do the same thing, which is when I know 00:41:02.751 --> 00:41:04.161 something's wrong, I don't do it. 00:41:04.701 --> 00:41:05.121 There you go. 00:41:05.121 --> 00:41:06.231 I put it really simply. 00:41:06.651 --> 00:41:08.661 Well, I think, and that would be following the way. 00:41:08.691 --> 00:41:08.871 Yes. 00:41:08.871 --> 00:41:09.861 In DAOs terms. 00:41:09.891 --> 00:41:10.521 Yes, that's right. 00:41:10.521 --> 00:41:13.101 And I think the Dao often is saving something quite simple 00:41:13.251 --> 00:41:17.721 and it chooses to do it in a fairly obtuse or paradoxical way. 00:41:17.991 --> 00:41:22.731 Because I think the assumption, one of the many assumptions, but one of the key ones 00:41:22.731 --> 00:41:27.711 in the text is that we experience things paradoxically and that we feel at odds 00:41:27.711 --> 00:41:29.631 with ourselves and we feel at odds with. 00:41:30.156 --> 00:41:33.606 We feel divided within, and we feel that the world is this and not this. 00:41:33.606 --> 00:41:37.146 And, and, and we, we experience our consciousness not as a unified thing. 00:41:37.416 --> 00:41:41.826 And as we were discussing last time that we are plagued by strange 00:41:41.826 --> 00:41:43.626 and sudden intrusive thoughts. 00:41:43.686 --> 00:41:49.296 And we've experienced our consciousness as this just wild, unruly, bizarre thing. 00:41:49.626 --> 00:41:52.836 Oh, I go through two hours of hell every morning. 00:41:52.866 --> 00:41:53.016 Yeah. 00:41:53.796 --> 00:41:55.026 Just from my thoughts. 00:41:55.866 --> 00:41:57.186 That's absolutely horrible. 00:41:57.786 --> 00:41:57.996 Yeah. 00:41:58.686 --> 00:42:01.176 But I, I go, I go to bed dreading it knowing that I'm gonna wake up 00:42:01.176 --> 00:42:03.426 and have two hours of struggle. 00:42:04.656 --> 00:42:08.106 That's, you know, that is brutal chunk of, that's while I'm sitting in 00:42:08.106 --> 00:42:09.576 peak hour traffic, driving to work. 00:42:09.936 --> 00:42:14.826 Oh, well, no, the Geneva Convention bans, uh, uh, you know, commuting 00:42:14.856 --> 00:42:18.456 in traffic, uh, I think you cannot make a prisoner war do it. 00:42:18.456 --> 00:42:19.836 It's cruel and unusual punishment. 00:42:20.886 --> 00:42:20.916 Oh. 00:42:20.916 --> 00:42:23.286 But, but, but, but I was gonna say something before about, um. 00:42:23.738 --> 00:42:24.788 The conscience thing. 00:42:25.208 --> 00:42:29.468 So when I said before, but Dawkins and Hitchens would say that, you 00:42:29.468 --> 00:42:32.858 know, believers and non-believers alike can have a conscience. 00:42:33.728 --> 00:42:38.438 But I think that there's an important thing to add here, which is that 00:42:38.798 --> 00:42:42.698 people will experience this conscience and that fail to act on it, and 00:42:42.698 --> 00:42:45.278 they will feel tortured by this. 00:42:45.368 --> 00:42:45.848 It is. 00:42:47.618 --> 00:42:49.538 But if you're a nihilist, it doesn't matter. 00:42:49.538 --> 00:42:49.838 Right? 00:42:49.838 --> 00:42:53.138 Well, if you're a nihilistic alcoholic, drinking yourself to 00:42:53.138 --> 00:42:55.658 death, you can do whatever the fuck you want because nothing matters. 00:42:55.658 --> 00:42:59.918 No, but, but you, you don't experience this as liberating or as meaningful. 00:43:00.548 --> 00:43:05.858 That's, you know, that's why I think, you know, nihilism is not like a phase 00:43:05.858 --> 00:43:07.358 we all pass through when we're 15. 00:43:07.358 --> 00:43:12.278 I think it's a phase we all pass through, perhaps by the day or the week that 00:43:12.278 --> 00:43:15.998 we all have that that nihilism is just there waiting for us at all times. 00:43:16.208 --> 00:43:16.478 Yeah. 00:43:16.508 --> 00:43:17.913 Like, like entropy or, or. 00:43:18.983 --> 00:43:22.883 Alienation or any, you know, these are sort of universal experiences, but another 00:43:22.883 --> 00:43:28.229 one of those universal experiences is it's not available to all at all times, 00:43:28.499 --> 00:43:35.309 but some sense of this ancient presence or a sense of, a sense of universal 00:43:35.309 --> 00:43:39.629 meaning or something like that, which I firmly believe, I've known atheists 00:43:39.629 --> 00:43:43.019 that have experienced that and then have formulated it in some different way. 00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:45.659 But that's the thing we're pointing to. 00:43:46.109 --> 00:43:48.509 But, but when it comes to trying to follow your conscience, it 00:43:48.509 --> 00:43:53.729 seems to really help to have some sense of a power or an authority. 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:55.199 Whose will you are? 00:43:55.229 --> 00:43:58.259 Or, or its will that you are acting? 00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:00.209 In accordance. 00:44:00.209 --> 00:44:05.639 It's quite curious to me, Sam, that as a former atheist, I 00:44:06.269 --> 00:44:07.889 know what God's will isn't. 00:44:09.134 --> 00:44:09.354 Yes. 00:44:09.354 --> 00:44:12.479 But I'm telling you, it's pretty fucking obvious to me. 00:44:12.749 --> 00:44:13.079 Yeah. 00:44:13.139 --> 00:44:14.399 Because I mm-hmm. 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.409 Have experienced a loving God. 00:44:16.529 --> 00:44:16.919 Yes. 00:44:17.189 --> 00:44:19.559 Who cares for me and wants the best for me. 00:44:19.709 --> 00:44:20.009 Abba. 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:20.519 Yeah. 00:44:20.729 --> 00:44:23.789 That's the word that some a lot of people are using now, perhaps Abba. 00:44:23.879 --> 00:44:24.119 Yeah. 00:44:24.509 --> 00:44:28.589 He who precedes, or she who precedes all ancestors. 00:44:28.594 --> 00:44:28.794 Mm-hmm. 00:44:28.984 --> 00:44:29.674 Abba Ahma. 00:44:29.674 --> 00:44:29.914 Yeah. 00:44:30.299 --> 00:44:30.959 Mm. 00:44:31.499 --> 00:44:33.929 Uh, the ancestor of all ancestors. 00:44:33.929 --> 00:44:34.319 Yes. 00:44:34.379 --> 00:44:39.659 Because the other part about having a God is that you think that if you do 00:44:39.659 --> 00:44:46.739 the right thing, things might turn out better than if you connive and cheat 00:44:46.769 --> 00:44:50.069 and steal or take shortcuts or, yeah. 00:44:50.069 --> 00:44:53.189 Whereas if you are purely a materialist, you're just gonna think. 00:44:53.789 --> 00:44:57.509 Well, I'll just steal that thing, or I'll just scam that person. 00:44:57.509 --> 00:44:59.609 Or I'll just cut that corner. 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:00.329 Well, yeah, yeah. 00:45:00.329 --> 00:45:05.219 Or, or you might, you, you might say, oh, I won't do that because it's not optimal, 00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:10.229 because, uh, you know, there might be some social cost to me to do this. 00:45:10.229 --> 00:45:11.909 There might lose reputation or whatever. 00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:14.369 But I don't think that that's very satisfying. 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:20.429 And I don't think, oh, I, I, I will not steal because a rule says I shouldn't 00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:25.229 or I will not steal because it might damage my reputation if I'm caught. 00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:29.189 Or that a sanction will be applied by the courts, that I 00:45:29.189 --> 00:45:30.509 might go to prison or something. 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.209 I don't think that really gets at it. 00:45:33.509 --> 00:45:36.539 And when my, you know, and when my kids say, when my students say, you 00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:43.409 know, something charmingly naive, like, you know, we need the police 00:45:43.409 --> 00:45:45.239 to stop people from doing crimes. 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:51.659 And, and I'm like, I, okay, so on the way here to school today, you 00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:53.189 didn't take someone's lunch money. 00:45:53.714 --> 00:45:58.334 Even though you could have, because the cops might get you, and they're 00:45:58.334 --> 00:45:59.534 like, no, what are you talking about? 00:46:00.074 --> 00:46:01.544 And I'm like, why didn't you rob someone? 00:46:03.134 --> 00:46:05.444 And they're like, I didn't want to. 00:46:06.794 --> 00:46:07.964 I'm like, why didn't you want to? 00:46:09.764 --> 00:46:12.614 Is it 'cause of the cops or is it 'cause you just don't want to do it? 00:46:13.544 --> 00:46:16.634 And they're like, well, I didn't need to take anyone's lunch money. 00:46:16.634 --> 00:46:19.034 And I'm like, well, even if you did need to, you were hungry. 00:46:19.394 --> 00:46:20.834 You'd still not want to do it. 00:46:20.834 --> 00:46:21.254 Right. 00:46:22.364 --> 00:46:24.164 Why don't, why don't you just reach over there and why don't you just 00:46:24.164 --> 00:46:25.184 punch that other kid in the face? 00:46:25.184 --> 00:46:26.174 Just do it right now. 00:46:26.174 --> 00:46:26.624 Who cares? 00:46:26.714 --> 00:46:27.044 Right? 00:46:28.034 --> 00:46:28.874 There's no cops here. 00:46:29.864 --> 00:46:30.044 Right? 00:46:30.044 --> 00:46:30.164 Okay. 00:46:30.164 --> 00:46:34.274 They might come later and arrest you, but, but you naturally recoil at the 00:46:34.274 --> 00:46:35.744 thought of doing that to somebody. 00:46:35.744 --> 00:46:36.164 Why? 00:46:36.194 --> 00:46:37.334 Because why would I want to? 00:46:37.334 --> 00:46:42.284 You're only gonna do that if you are in some form of distress or you've 00:46:42.284 --> 00:46:47.384 dehumanized that person for whatever reason, that basically there's something 00:46:47.384 --> 00:46:48.704 in us that goes, it's not right. 00:46:49.484 --> 00:46:54.164 But to just encode this purely as a rule is not very satisfactory. 00:46:54.404 --> 00:46:59.324 To encode it as like a materialist, let's seek the optimum path through 00:46:59.324 --> 00:47:01.124 life for maximum personal success. 00:47:01.124 --> 00:47:02.594 That's not very satisfactory. 00:47:03.584 --> 00:47:07.454 I think it seems to work much better if we try to experience 00:47:07.454 --> 00:47:09.614 this as a truer way of living. 00:47:09.674 --> 00:47:13.544 And then that, yeah, I don't see, I've started reading a little bit of Christian 00:47:13.544 --> 00:47:18.284 stuff, but I don't do anything 'cause I want to go to heaven or avoid hell. 00:47:18.314 --> 00:47:19.004 Correct. 00:47:19.124 --> 00:47:22.154 But in the present moment, I want a clear conscience. 00:47:22.424 --> 00:47:22.724 Yes. 00:47:22.724 --> 00:47:24.374 So it's part of getting sober. 00:47:24.374 --> 00:47:27.554 I did stop stealing little things from the supermarket and I haven't done it 00:47:27.554 --> 00:47:29.684 for 10 years and I've stayed sober. 00:47:29.684 --> 00:47:29.744 Yeah. 00:47:29.744 --> 00:47:32.324 And it was, it wasn't obvious at the time when they told me, you've 00:47:32.324 --> 00:47:34.094 gotta stop doing any stealing. 00:47:34.604 --> 00:47:38.864 Um, personally, I personally, it doesn't bother me if a person robs 00:47:38.924 --> 00:47:43.574 from Coles or Wool Woolies, uh, have however, or Bunnings or whoever, but. 00:47:43.919 --> 00:47:45.179 I get what you mean. 00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:46.049 Yeah. 00:47:46.054 --> 00:47:48.039 I could, I I had the, I had the form. 00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:49.379 It's undermining your spirit. 00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:52.709 I had the form of justification, which is they extract 00:47:52.709 --> 00:47:54.029 billions of dollars of profit. 00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:54.839 Well, they're thieves. 00:47:54.929 --> 00:47:55.049 Yeah. 00:47:55.049 --> 00:47:57.359 Therefore, it's morally right. 00:47:57.359 --> 00:47:58.439 It's okay to steal from thieves. 00:47:58.469 --> 00:48:02.969 And then I was told, well, Joe, if you want to save your own life and 00:48:02.969 --> 00:48:07.229 stop drinking alcohol till you die, you are gonna have to stop stealing. 00:48:07.229 --> 00:48:10.319 And I don't really care what your moral justification is. 00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:14.099 You need to stop doing that because now you're gonna live 00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:16.289 a life of rigorous honesty. 00:48:16.859 --> 00:48:18.629 And I have tried to stick to that. 00:48:18.629 --> 00:48:20.339 And I haven't stolen a single thing. 00:48:20.339 --> 00:48:23.099 I haven't, I haven't fudged anything. 00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.199 Um, or failed to Yeah. 00:48:25.229 --> 00:48:27.689 Repay a small loan or Yeah. 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:27.965 Yeah. 00:48:28.176 --> 00:48:31.326 the difference between someone who's shooting at something and 00:48:31.326 --> 00:48:33.546 someone who's not, it's profound. 00:48:33.696 --> 00:48:33.726 Mm. 00:48:34.236 --> 00:48:35.646 That's, yeah, that's interesting. 00:48:35.706 --> 00:48:39.726 And, and I, you know, it is, is it, it's one thing I learned in therapy. 00:48:39.726 --> 00:48:42.966 It's like, do you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror or not? 00:48:42.966 --> 00:48:47.556 Are you living by what you'd like, like to or not? 00:48:47.556 --> 00:48:53.166 Is the, is the Dao trying, trying to tell us what to do? 00:48:53.526 --> 00:49:00.516 No, because it knows that any attempt to encode in language what you ought to 00:49:00.516 --> 00:49:03.336 do or, and ought not to do, will fail. 00:49:03.756 --> 00:49:07.056 And that people will game that language. 00:49:07.176 --> 00:49:07.626 Mm. 00:49:07.686 --> 00:49:09.126 They will seek exceptions. 00:49:09.216 --> 00:49:12.486 They will rules lawyer it, they will seek to apply it. 00:49:12.936 --> 00:49:17.046 Im, uh, impartially or very partially to themselves and very 00:49:17.046 --> 00:49:18.936 partially to those they don't like. 00:49:19.506 --> 00:49:23.676 And this is a fundamental teaching in the Bible that most humans are 00:49:23.676 --> 00:49:28.026 very uneven with their application of justice to themselves and to others. 00:49:28.566 --> 00:49:30.036 And I think that that is very true. 00:49:30.336 --> 00:49:35.016 And one of the reasons this happens is because if we mistake the word 00:49:35.076 --> 00:49:40.026 of the rule for the purpose and the, the, the real thing, that we 00:49:40.026 --> 00:49:43.596 will try to fucking play games with it, because that's what humans do. 00:49:43.926 --> 00:49:48.336 So what does the, how the Dao avoids this problem by going straight at 00:49:48.756 --> 00:49:51.876 the paradoxical nature of it, right? 00:49:52.146 --> 00:49:55.086 And it goes, I'm not gonna give you the easy answers. 00:49:55.086 --> 00:49:56.316 You have to work on it. 00:49:56.526 --> 00:49:57.606 I'm gonna tell you. 00:49:58.341 --> 00:50:03.441 About the, I'm gonna tell you about the forces and the things that are at work. 00:50:03.471 --> 00:50:06.801 I'm gonna try to describe the landscape of your own consciousness and the 00:50:06.801 --> 00:50:08.811 landscape of the universe itself. 00:50:08.871 --> 00:50:14.211 And then I'm gonna set the coordinates, and then you are going to navigate a path 00:50:14.211 --> 00:50:15.771 through the middle of those coordinates. 00:50:15.771 --> 00:50:17.481 And you are responsible for that. 00:50:17.901 --> 00:50:25.041 And you have to be conscious of that at all times, but also become 00:50:25.041 --> 00:50:28.221 unconscious of it and just act in the right way when it is clear and 00:50:28.221 --> 00:50:30.291 obvious that there's one thing to do. 00:50:30.681 --> 00:50:30.861 Mm-hmm. 00:50:30.891 --> 00:50:33.801 So it's sort of, it's, it's not being mystical, it's not 00:50:33.801 --> 00:50:39.021 dodging the question, it's, it's pointing us to inescapable things. 00:50:39.141 --> 00:50:43.071 And it's, it's, it's basically, I feel like it just states over and over again. 00:50:43.281 --> 00:50:45.141 You can't cheat the system. 00:50:45.801 --> 00:50:46.821 That's what I'm trying to say. 00:50:46.971 --> 00:50:47.271 Yeah. 00:50:47.811 --> 00:50:49.221 See, I, I'm sitting here. 00:50:49.401 --> 00:50:49.611 Yeah. 00:50:51.171 --> 00:50:52.341 Trying to be honest. 00:50:52.341 --> 00:50:54.381 The system meaning the nature of things? 00:50:54.441 --> 00:50:55.101 Yeah. 00:50:55.131 --> 00:50:56.031 Reality itself. 00:50:56.061 --> 00:50:56.661 Your own experience. 00:50:56.661 --> 00:50:59.151 I'm sitting here trying to be honest and I don't know. 00:50:59.151 --> 00:50:59.811 Mm-hmm. 00:51:00.291 --> 00:51:01.041 I don't know. 00:51:01.041 --> 00:51:06.591 I don't have a path financially to say, being able to take an interstate 00:51:06.591 --> 00:51:10.641 holiday with my kids or to feel the level of security financially where you 00:51:10.641 --> 00:51:12.561 wouldn't have to stress about your stats. 00:51:13.251 --> 00:51:13.761 Yeah. 00:51:13.761 --> 00:51:15.441 I don't have a path forward. 00:51:15.531 --> 00:51:18.681 Like a lot of people are out there hustling and side hustles and 00:51:18.681 --> 00:51:20.121 Yeah, on, on interstate holiday. 00:51:20.121 --> 00:51:23.841 It's not on the cards for me for quite some time, so yeah. 00:51:23.901 --> 00:51:29.909 I don't know how to make life the way I want it to be, if that makes sense. 00:51:30.089 --> 00:51:31.959 I don't know that, but I have faith. 00:51:32.399 --> 00:51:32.819 Faith, what you mean? 00:51:32.854 --> 00:51:33.449 I see what you mean. 00:51:33.449 --> 00:51:33.659 Yeah. 00:51:33.689 --> 00:51:36.509 That I have faith now that if I am. 00:51:37.094 --> 00:51:38.984 As good a person as I can be. 00:51:39.044 --> 00:51:39.344 Mm-hmm. 00:51:39.434 --> 00:51:41.984 I will live the best life that's possible for me. 00:51:41.984 --> 00:51:44.504 Now does that mean I never leave Victoria again? 00:51:44.504 --> 00:51:46.064 I actually have no idea. 00:51:46.634 --> 00:51:50.504 But I, you know, I sometimes wonder myself about that. 00:51:50.534 --> 00:51:50.804 Yeah. 00:51:50.864 --> 00:51:57.224 But like, I, I have that faith now, and so I just, you know, I don't 00:51:57.284 --> 00:52:03.434 just, I do my job because I wanted to do a job that was, that had meaning. 00:52:03.524 --> 00:52:04.004 Yes. 00:52:04.244 --> 00:52:08.654 And that's why even today, I, I had a good day at work because I did my job 00:52:09.704 --> 00:52:14.024 trying to do a good job and trying to connect with people with a mental illness. 00:52:14.054 --> 00:52:14.264 Yeah. 00:52:14.624 --> 00:52:18.314 And the other stuff, the system stuff, the stats is just the game. 00:52:18.689 --> 00:52:19.199 Correct. 00:52:19.259 --> 00:52:25.259 So I, you know what you're pointing to the stuff that the jail would very readily 00:52:25.259 --> 00:52:29.999 recognize, the tension between legalism and the need for systems and hierarchies 00:52:29.999 --> 00:52:35.429 and authorities and the need for something much more spontaneous and true than that. 00:52:35.429 --> 00:52:35.699 Yeah. 00:52:36.269 --> 00:52:37.799 I wanted it points to both those things. 00:52:37.804 --> 00:52:38.044 Yeah. 00:52:38.224 --> 00:52:38.444 Yes. 00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:40.319 I wanted meaning I got meaning. 00:52:40.499 --> 00:52:40.829 Yeah. 00:52:41.009 --> 00:52:41.999 And now I've got meaning. 00:52:41.999 --> 00:52:42.689 What do I want? 00:52:42.689 --> 00:52:43.289 Cash. 00:52:43.439 --> 00:52:43.859 Yes. 00:52:43.859 --> 00:52:45.539 You know, but I can't get cash. 00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:49.049 Well, it's interesting you're working your way down Maslow's Hierarchy of needs from 00:52:49.054 --> 00:52:51.689 the, yeah, from the top to the bottom. 00:52:51.869 --> 00:52:52.409 Yeah. 00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:56.009 And of course, that's what, well, that's what a lot of your dummies do, isn't it? 00:52:56.069 --> 00:52:59.819 You start, you know, Kami, start with the bottom stuff, you know, 00:53:00.209 --> 00:53:02.939 survival, status, autonomy. 00:53:03.329 --> 00:53:06.029 And then they work their way up to, you know, the, well, 00:53:06.029 --> 00:53:07.559 they might eventually discover. 00:53:07.919 --> 00:53:09.989 After adding another wing to the mansion. 00:53:10.349 --> 00:53:14.579 Actually, I think there's more to life than this, and I haven't 00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:16.079 quite managed to get at something. 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:17.579 I might be missing something here. 00:53:17.849 --> 00:53:21.569 And then the DBA bums are like, nah, man, let's start with the things 00:53:21.569 --> 00:53:24.659 that are just epically and eternally true, and just not worry about the 00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:26.219 other stuff, which is all very well. 00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:29.519 And then you've got kids, and then you're like, actually, I think 00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.459 part of my dharma is to provide materially for these children. 00:53:33.089 --> 00:53:33.629 Yeah. 00:53:33.899 --> 00:53:36.899 And that, that's as true as, uh, sitting around me talking 00:53:36.899 --> 00:53:38.189 about the Dow or whatever. 00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.059 Yeah. 00:53:39.089 --> 00:53:43.439 But you know, I, they, they do not count on me for an interstate holiday. 00:53:43.769 --> 00:53:46.979 And if they never have one on my dime, that'll be okay. 00:53:46.979 --> 00:53:53.669 Because like, just like you said with, you know, if you never managed to get, 00:53:53.699 --> 00:53:56.669 if you don't manage to get through life without, you know, the tiniest, 00:53:56.759 --> 00:54:01.379 tiniest shortcut or act of dishonesty, I mean, you could hardly be blamed. 00:54:01.379 --> 00:54:01.709 Right. 00:54:01.709 --> 00:54:04.709 But shoot, shooting at it is, is something. 00:54:04.924 --> 00:54:05.224 And so. 00:54:06.704 --> 00:54:09.794 You know, can you but point, can you do everything for your kids? 00:54:09.794 --> 00:54:10.154 No. 00:54:10.154 --> 00:54:13.004 Can you do what's, what's really needed and what's really important? 00:54:13.004 --> 00:54:14.144 Yes, you probably can. 00:54:14.234 --> 00:54:16.784 I think the point is, I think we should wrap it up, but yeah, I 00:54:16.784 --> 00:54:20.834 think the point is about God's will, or let's call it the way Yeah. 00:54:21.224 --> 00:54:24.044 Is I can start again right now. 00:54:25.364 --> 00:54:25.844 Yes. 00:54:25.849 --> 00:54:28.064 Like I can as I leave here tonight. 00:54:28.064 --> 00:54:28.274 Yes. 00:54:28.334 --> 00:54:29.474 I can drive home. 00:54:29.534 --> 00:54:29.924 Yes. 00:54:30.104 --> 00:54:35.114 And I can get back and even if I've been dishonest today, I get to start again. 00:54:35.444 --> 00:54:42.134 The way is always there ready for you to place your feet upon it and me for me. 00:54:42.134 --> 00:54:43.334 And I know, yeah. 00:54:43.334 --> 00:54:45.794 And I know that I need further surrender. 00:54:46.274 --> 00:54:51.111 I need to let go of, more of, I'm gonna engage a new psychologist and 00:54:51.111 --> 00:54:55.401 just try and do some old school CBT to just try and let go of trying 00:54:55.401 --> 00:54:57.081 to control things with my thoughts. 00:54:57.081 --> 00:54:58.371 It's insane, Sam. 00:54:58.701 --> 00:55:01.281 Well actually maybe things I try and control with my thoughts, uh. 00:55:01.806 --> 00:55:06.756 Things in the future, um, things that are clearly not in my control and I've done 00:55:06.756 --> 00:55:10.836 it my whole adult life, or things that don't even exist, things that will never 00:55:10.836 --> 00:55:14.796 happen, and I'm trying to stop them from happening by thinking about them and, 00:55:14.796 --> 00:55:16.626 you know, like, like boxing with shadows. 00:55:16.686 --> 00:55:17.196 Yeah. 00:55:17.226 --> 00:55:21.281 So there's so much work to, there's a lifetime of work still to do, to 00:55:21.281 --> 00:55:25.626 clear my fucking head and just come into the present moment, you know? 00:55:25.776 --> 00:55:31.716 Um, not, but I, I get a chance every moment if that makes sense. 00:55:31.716 --> 00:55:33.906 And I'm gonna throw whatever I can at it. 00:55:33.936 --> 00:55:36.336 If that's a new psychologist, I'm gonna throw that at it. 00:55:36.966 --> 00:55:39.396 Um, even if it's hard to afford and whatever. 00:55:39.396 --> 00:55:45.486 So I'm always, you know, since I got sober, I'm, I'm drafting my life and I'm 00:55:45.486 --> 00:55:47.886 trying every day to write a better draft. 00:55:47.886 --> 00:55:48.666 Does that make sense? 00:55:49.361 --> 00:55:52.266 I, I cannot tell you how much sense it makes. 00:55:52.896 --> 00:55:53.076 Yeah. 00:55:53.346 --> 00:55:54.786 I feel exactly the same way. 00:55:55.326 --> 00:55:58.566 And yeah, it's like, I, I think I see you doing a more 00:55:58.566 --> 00:56:01.056 steady job of it than me, but. 00:56:01.491 --> 00:56:04.761 I think the aim and the intention, the method is much the same. 00:56:05.001 --> 00:56:08.571 Um, although in my case, I don't really have a method 00:56:08.721 --> 00:56:11.031 actually, so, or not, not one. 00:56:11.031 --> 00:56:13.011 Not one that's as worked out as that. 00:56:13.341 --> 00:56:16.491 But it certainly is the same sort of commitment to like, okay, let's just 00:56:16.491 --> 00:56:18.291 try and put our feet on the path again. 00:56:18.771 --> 00:56:19.851 And that you've got a moment. 00:56:19.851 --> 00:56:20.271 Yeah. 00:56:20.331 --> 00:56:22.251 Every moment you can begin again. 00:56:22.761 --> 00:56:23.151 Right. 00:56:23.931 --> 00:56:28.611 And the Dao is basically like, do you remember when we were like 20? 00:56:29.151 --> 00:56:29.571 No. 00:56:30.531 --> 00:56:30.951 Let's see. 00:56:30.951 --> 00:56:33.771 I had these slightly younger friends in law, and I was maybe 25. 00:56:33.771 --> 00:56:35.001 They were a few years younger. 00:56:35.541 --> 00:56:38.777 And There was this little thing that was going on for a while of someone would 00:56:38.777 --> 00:56:40.577 say, ah, damn, I just lost the game. 00:56:41.687 --> 00:56:45.107 Ah, apropos, nothing, nothing's happened. 00:56:45.137 --> 00:56:48.467 There's no, there's no co There was no contest that was taking place. 00:56:48.467 --> 00:56:49.187 And they lost the game. 00:56:50.357 --> 00:56:52.787 You'd lose the game when you started thinking. 00:56:53.792 --> 00:56:54.932 About losing the game. 00:56:55.442 --> 00:56:55.622 Mm-hmm. 00:56:55.892 --> 00:56:57.932 So it was just this little trick. 00:56:58.142 --> 00:57:02.342 And so sometimes a person might say it 10 times in a day, like they'll 00:57:02.342 --> 00:57:05.522 just on a streak of just losing the game constantly, basically. 00:57:05.522 --> 00:57:06.902 It's like, oh, I got in my head. 00:57:07.472 --> 00:57:07.712 Yeah. 00:57:07.712 --> 00:57:08.432 I just lost the game. 00:57:08.432 --> 00:57:09.632 You've gotta stay positive, right? 00:57:09.662 --> 00:57:10.022 Yeah. 00:57:10.532 --> 00:57:11.072 Yeah. 00:57:11.162 --> 00:57:14.102 It's like you, you're in your head and you're like, I'm playing the game. 00:57:14.432 --> 00:57:15.392 I'm fighting to win. 00:57:15.512 --> 00:57:17.042 And it's like, bro, you lost the game already. 00:57:17.132 --> 00:57:17.432 Yeah. 00:57:17.432 --> 00:57:20.702 You know, it's like, that's what the DAOs trying to teach us. 00:57:21.302 --> 00:57:21.602 Yeah. 00:57:21.602 --> 00:57:25.412 I find it's easy to be spiritual when things are going my way, but oh boy. 00:57:25.412 --> 00:57:27.302 It's easy in adversity. 00:57:27.902 --> 00:57:32.402 I very quickly can revert to atheism and like, or even worse, just cursing God, 00:57:33.452 --> 00:57:38.522 you know, I, I don't, I think the act of cursing God is profound and fundamental. 00:57:38.942 --> 00:57:43.202 You, I mean, it's a experience you shared with every other believer and every 00:57:43.202 --> 00:57:45.452 other figure in the Bible who, you know. 00:57:45.542 --> 00:57:46.052 Yeah. 00:57:46.052 --> 00:57:49.562 It's, I'm a late bloomer 'cause I had 35 years of pure atheism. 00:57:50.297 --> 00:57:54.557 Apart from a few LSD trips, which showed me things I couldn't quite explain. 00:57:55.367 --> 00:57:57.377 Um, yeah, Buddha type revelations. 00:57:57.737 --> 00:57:58.997 Oh, connectedness of all things. 00:57:58.997 --> 00:57:59.327 Yeah. 00:57:59.567 --> 00:58:01.217 Can't do it justice in words, but yeah. 00:58:01.217 --> 00:58:01.967 No, it's impossible. 00:58:01.997 --> 00:58:03.047 Yeah, it blew my mind. 00:58:03.137 --> 00:58:08.687 But yeah, 35 years of atheist conditioning and 10 years of, of the 00:58:08.687 --> 00:58:10.202 spirit of the spiritual adventure. 00:58:10.367 --> 00:58:10.757 Yeah. 00:58:11.117 --> 00:58:14.777 And I've ended up reading, you know, stuff that Jesus said 00:58:14.777 --> 00:58:16.037 and talking about God's will. 00:58:16.037 --> 00:58:17.927 So am I on path to become a Christian? 00:58:17.927 --> 00:58:18.647 I don't know. 00:58:18.677 --> 00:58:18.857 Yeah. 00:58:18.887 --> 00:58:22.367 Well that's the point that the Dao would also say you don't 00:58:22.397 --> 00:58:23.777 like, no, you don't know. 00:58:23.807 --> 00:58:26.777 You can't say what the outcome of your action is gonna be. 00:58:27.167 --> 00:58:29.297 You, and you can't control that. 00:58:29.957 --> 00:58:33.437 You, I mean, you have to sort of try to do right thought, right action, all that. 00:58:33.437 --> 00:58:36.107 We wait, uh, sometimes no thought, right. 00:58:36.107 --> 00:58:36.467 Action. 00:58:36.467 --> 00:58:36.797 Right. 00:58:37.217 --> 00:58:42.617 But you know, with, particularly with thing, you know, often with music or. 00:58:43.307 --> 00:58:46.577 To really respond to someone at work meaningfully. 00:58:46.577 --> 00:58:46.877 Right. 00:58:46.877 --> 00:58:48.887 Take the thought away and just try to engage. 00:58:49.037 --> 00:58:49.307 Yeah. 00:58:49.397 --> 00:58:52.637 And you know, other times you have to stop and be thoughtful 00:58:52.637 --> 00:58:55.967 and deliberate and consider your actions carefully, et cetera. 00:58:55.967 --> 00:58:58.487 And so you have to mix up your approaches constantly. 00:58:59.057 --> 00:59:03.947 And, but I would say I see someone who is actually just quite 00:59:03.947 --> 00:59:09.527 steadily, steadily making progress, whether you realize it or not. 00:59:09.707 --> 00:59:15.257 And there's certainly this drive forward and it's like the, and you 00:59:15.257 --> 00:59:18.347 find that the adventure is calling you somewhere and you go there. 00:59:18.527 --> 00:59:18.887 Yeah. 00:59:19.307 --> 00:59:23.957 When the adventure calls you, you go, my spiritual advisor says, I have a thirst. 00:59:24.317 --> 00:59:24.527 Yeah. 00:59:25.382 --> 00:59:25.622 Yeah. 00:59:25.802 --> 00:59:28.897 And that's, that's the, um, that's the metaphor they use in the worries. 00:59:29.077 --> 00:59:31.352 What's the, I can't remember the phrase, but it's like the passion 00:59:31.352 --> 00:59:32.612 of the convert or whatever. 00:59:32.792 --> 00:59:33.272 Yes. 00:59:33.302 --> 00:59:34.082 What's the phrase? 00:59:34.142 --> 00:59:35.492 Yes, the, the zeal. 00:59:35.492 --> 00:59:36.782 The zeal, yes. 00:59:36.782 --> 00:59:38.012 The neo zeal. 00:59:38.017 --> 00:59:38.217 Yeah. 00:59:38.257 --> 00:59:41.402 I have the zeal of the convert Uhhuh because I had 35 years of 00:59:41.402 --> 00:59:45.332 atheist conditioning, which is probably still makes up a lot more 00:59:45.332 --> 00:59:49.982 of my thinking and actions than the 10 years of vague spirituality. 00:59:50.672 --> 00:59:52.412 But I have this thirst. 00:59:52.412 --> 00:59:52.862 Yes, yes. 00:59:52.892 --> 00:59:56.342 I have this thirst because I've experienced things that have 00:59:56.342 --> 00:59:58.352 been very profound for me mm-hmm. 00:59:58.712 --> 01:00:00.002 With a higher power. 01:00:00.182 --> 01:00:04.202 And now I have a thirst to understand those things and experience more of them. 01:00:04.652 --> 01:00:07.592 And I really think it's probably gonna take up the 01:00:07.592 --> 01:00:09.152 rest of what's left of my life. 01:00:09.422 --> 01:00:12.752 Well is I'm much more interested in the spiritual plane 01:00:12.752 --> 01:00:14.222 than I am the material now. 01:00:14.462 --> 01:00:14.732 Yes. 01:00:14.732 --> 01:00:15.632 In a lot of ways. 01:00:15.662 --> 01:00:16.082 Yes. 01:00:16.472 --> 01:00:16.862 Yes. 01:00:16.922 --> 01:00:19.652 And hopefully there's some. 01:00:19.982 --> 01:00:23.702 Uh, you know, truth in the, the, the offer that was made to you. 01:00:23.702 --> 01:00:24.272 You know what Joe? 01:00:24.272 --> 01:00:27.872 You're gonna continue to live your life in this way, engaging in these petty acts 01:00:27.872 --> 01:00:32.492 of dishonesty, stealing with whatever moral justification you may have. 01:00:32.492 --> 01:00:38.132 Or are you gonna do the thing that will actually leave, live 01:00:38.132 --> 01:00:40.022 better, feel better, that yeah. 01:00:40.022 --> 01:00:40.952 Leads to a better life? 01:00:41.522 --> 01:00:44.672 And what is exactly that definition of a better life and what's 01:00:44.672 --> 01:00:45.902 being promised within that? 01:00:45.902 --> 01:00:48.032 Well, hmm, certainly it's not cash. 01:00:48.122 --> 01:00:48.662 Yeah. 01:00:48.752 --> 01:00:52.262 Well, and holidays and cars and, but it's interesting. 01:00:52.262 --> 01:00:53.732 It's none of that, I dunno. 01:00:53.852 --> 01:00:58.592 I think sometimes, you know, like there was this old lady that used 01:00:58.592 --> 01:01:03.452 to live at the bottom of the hill in Dean's Marsh and, you know, her son 01:01:03.452 --> 01:01:08.972 was a jockey, a champion jockey, and I think he died young and relatively. 01:01:09.662 --> 01:01:12.212 And so she was a kind of a. 01:01:13.802 --> 01:01:17.462 You know, one of these old country types that repeats things, you know, but, but 01:01:17.882 --> 01:01:19.712 not in a forgetful, senile sort of way. 01:01:19.712 --> 01:01:23.942 No, she was very sharp, but she wanted, she just, she wanted 01:01:23.942 --> 01:01:25.952 to tell you the good news. 01:01:25.952 --> 01:01:28.052 She wanted to tell you the thing she'd worked out. 01:01:28.052 --> 01:01:31.172 She, you know, it was her duty to share it and to share it 01:01:31.172 --> 01:01:32.522 again and again, the gospel. 01:01:32.522 --> 01:01:32.792 Right. 01:01:33.512 --> 01:01:37.202 But she would often say, what's for you won't go by you and 01:01:37.262 --> 01:01:39.302 it'll come, and things like that. 01:01:39.392 --> 01:01:39.752 Mm-hmm. 01:01:40.652 --> 01:01:41.432 And I, I don't know. 01:01:41.492 --> 01:01:44.762 I was 16 and I was like, I think I had a level of like, I was indulging her 01:01:44.762 --> 01:01:46.232 and being patient, but I don't know. 01:01:46.232 --> 01:01:48.032 I kind of thought, yeah, I don't know. 01:01:48.032 --> 01:01:49.262 There might be something in that. 01:01:49.862 --> 01:01:52.622 And I, I've come back to those thoughts many times. 01:01:52.622 --> 01:01:54.692 I'm like, if it's for you, it won't go by you. 01:01:54.932 --> 01:01:56.822 If it's for you, it won't go by you. 01:01:56.972 --> 01:01:57.332 Yeah. 01:01:57.392 --> 01:01:58.262 And what's the other one? 01:01:58.262 --> 01:01:58.922 It'll come. 01:01:59.132 --> 01:01:59.192 Yeah. 01:02:00.602 --> 01:02:01.202 Okay. 01:02:01.352 --> 01:02:03.182 I quite like That's very Dao. 01:02:03.422 --> 01:02:04.657 It is very, very da. 01:02:04.687 --> 01:02:06.302 It's like, it doesn't say what will come. 01:02:06.722 --> 01:02:06.932 Mm. 01:02:06.992 --> 01:02:08.132 Doesn't say what's for you. 01:02:08.767 --> 01:02:09.057 Yeah. 01:02:09.207 --> 01:02:13.502 It's a, it doesn't make promises of that kind, but that's the point. 01:02:13.892 --> 01:02:17.372 Promises and threats, that's for fools, you know? 01:02:17.552 --> 01:02:22.832 And like, uh, I think Richard and our friends, Richard and Dickey and 01:02:22.832 --> 01:02:25.892 Chris would agree that, you know, threats and promises that's for 01:02:25.892 --> 01:02:27.722 children, you know, and for falls. 01:02:27.722 --> 01:02:30.812 And in fact, I don't think it's even the best approach with children, you 01:02:30.812 --> 01:02:35.552 know, and that they, they were wrong to characterize religion as a simple sort 01:02:35.612 --> 01:02:38.702 of tales of hell and tales of heaven. 01:02:38.702 --> 01:02:43.832 I mean, sure there is that cartoonish quality to it at times, but the real call, 01:02:43.832 --> 01:02:48.212 you see the thing you were talking about before something opened up and you just, 01:02:48.452 --> 01:02:50.612 you had to sort of find out where it went. 01:02:50.672 --> 01:02:52.952 It's, there's an old fashioned term, a calling. 01:02:53.222 --> 01:02:53.552 Hmm. 01:02:53.732 --> 01:02:54.182 Right. 01:02:54.212 --> 01:02:56.462 And so when you have a calling, it doesn't really. 01:02:57.287 --> 01:02:59.957 Yeah, but it's never called me into a church. 01:02:59.987 --> 01:03:00.617 That's the point. 01:03:00.617 --> 01:03:00.677 No. 01:03:00.977 --> 01:03:04.007 It's called me into your lounge room to talk about something as 01:03:05.087 --> 01:03:07.067 vague and mysterious as the Dao. 01:03:07.247 --> 01:03:08.657 Well, I say it's quite a clear thing. 01:03:08.807 --> 01:03:10.877 It just doesn't give you obvious answers. 01:03:10.967 --> 01:03:12.197 It makes you work 'em out. 01:03:12.377 --> 01:03:13.377 Yeah, yeah. 01:03:13.757 --> 01:03:17.237 Or it makes you stop looking for them when it's time to stop looking for 01:03:17.237 --> 01:03:18.767 them, et cetera, et cetera, you know? 01:03:18.767 --> 01:03:23.507 Which may be such a time now, and I don't claim to be the final or even the first 01:03:23.507 --> 01:03:28.337 authority on it, but I do know that every time I read it, it just sort of go, Hmm. 01:03:29.147 --> 01:03:29.717 Yeah. 01:03:29.867 --> 01:03:32.567 You know, and it's like it throws you back on something. 01:03:32.747 --> 01:03:33.197 Yeah. 01:03:33.197 --> 01:03:34.337 I loved reading that verse. 01:03:34.337 --> 01:03:35.597 I look forward to doing another one. 01:03:35.597 --> 01:03:37.937 We'll do a normy one next time, but We'll then we'll come 01:03:37.937 --> 01:03:39.557 back at different times too. 01:03:39.677 --> 01:03:39.947 Yeah. 01:03:39.947 --> 01:03:42.317 We'll do a normy one, as in not a Dow verse, and of course 01:03:42.317 --> 01:03:43.337 there's dow verses that are more. 01:03:44.357 --> 01:03:46.967 Less mysterious and sort of empty than this one. 01:03:46.967 --> 01:03:48.737 This one has a kind of emptiness friend of the show. 01:03:48.737 --> 01:03:52.967 Liv wants us to do re relatable content, Sam, where we talk about our lives and 01:03:52.967 --> 01:03:58.997 our dating and our, you know what, two people piffling on about ancient texts. 01:03:58.997 --> 01:03:59.237 What? 01:03:59.237 --> 01:04:00.347 That's not relatable. 01:04:03.137 --> 01:04:04.847 Maybe she lacks curiosity. 01:04:05.237 --> 01:04:08.087 Oh, well it might be directed in other, you know what? 01:04:08.117 --> 01:04:11.507 I think she would say, well, I'm more curious about the people. 01:04:11.837 --> 01:04:12.887 Yes. 01:04:12.917 --> 01:04:15.227 And the, the, the experience of the person Yes. 01:04:15.227 --> 01:04:16.487 Rather than the abstract. 01:04:16.817 --> 01:04:17.147 Yeah. 01:04:17.147 --> 01:04:19.937 But you know, I don't, but that's the point when you talk about the Dao, 01:04:19.937 --> 01:04:21.947 you end up sharing personal stories. 01:04:22.007 --> 01:04:23.237 Well, we did today anyway. 01:04:23.267 --> 01:04:24.077 Well, that's what I find. 01:04:24.077 --> 01:04:27.347 It always makes people think of something that's true and important to them. 01:04:27.347 --> 01:04:31.067 And I think that might just be kind of Yeah. 01:04:31.427 --> 01:04:32.807 Well, one of the big purposes of it. 01:04:32.927 --> 01:04:33.017 Yeah. 01:04:33.017 --> 01:04:34.097 I'll finish with this, Sam. 01:04:34.187 --> 01:04:35.837 Yeah, though will be done. 01:04:36.677 --> 01:04:37.787 They will be done. 01:04:38.927 --> 01:04:39.147 Ah. 01:04:39.152 --> 01:04:39.392 Amen. 01:04:40.562 --> 01:04:41.147 See you mate.