Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
And today we're gonna finally resume our deep dive into the dao.
Actually, can I just say today we're going to resume our reading
of the DAO chapter by chapter.
We skip chapter three because of a disagreement about how to interpret it.
But you know, we may come back to it at some point.
Yes.
Chapter three was quite authoritarian, Sam.
It struck you immediately and me also as just a little bit fascist, however, yeah,
I thought it was very fasc and then you wanted to go and like reinterpret it.
So, we're gonna have to go through so many mental gymnastics to interpret
it in a non fascist way, which I'm sure you would've achieved.
But I just, you know, I had a stronger aversion to it.
And you know what, I had to listen.
So we're gonna do chapter four, which was hard for me, but there was a
happy thing that came out of it, which is I found a wonderful commentary
by an amazing scholar, uh, who also happens to be a lawyer by day, and
really was in a good position to talk about the legalistic sound of it.
Is this chapter three or Chapter four?
Chapter three.
Chapter three, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
so that was a great discovery.
Anyway, okay.
But we're skipping it.
Yeah.
Anyway, listeners can go and listen to go and read verse three of the da
de ching and tell us what you think and possibly, you know, find for
yourself the non fascist, uh, reading of it, which I think is the true one.
Now, we can make up our, we can also make up our minds about chapter four,
which is an entirely different feel to the verse before the chapter before.
Okay.
So this is from distic.com,
which is our usual reference.
The way is empty.
Yet inexhaustible like an abyss.
It seems to be the origin of all things.
It dulls the sharpness, unties the knots, dims the lights becomes one
with the dust, deeply hidden as if it, as if it only might exist.
I do not know whose child it is.
It seems to proceed the ancestor of all.
I thought it was deeply hi hidden as if it only might exist.
Emphasis on the might deeply hidden as if it only might exist.
Yes, that's, that was how I read it.
I think that's correct because you put the emphasis on only.
well, there you go.
There's always something to talk about.
So when you sent me this yesterday, I, I loved it.
I, it's like a cool mountain breeze.
Blew through my mind and I was like, yes, this is exactly right.
Uh, it's gonna be, this is the Dao I'm after.
Yes.
Well, the Dao that can be named is not the true Dao, right?
Mm-hmm.
It made me think of God.
Sam, can you read it again?
'cause it's, yeah.
Just read it again.
Yeah.
The way is empty, yet inexhaustible like an abyss.
It seems to be the origin of all things.
It dulls the sharpness, unties the knot, dims the light becomes one with the dust,
deeply hidden as if it only might exist.
I do not know whose child it is.
It seems to precede the ancestor of all.
Yeah, I mean, those last couple of lines to me, that's God.
Well, many people share your conclusion and, uh, more than one
commentator has said that the last line seems to be the only direct
reference to a God in the whole text.
In the whole text.
Mm-hmm.
It seems to proceed.
The all ancestors.
Yes.
And so we're going back to what was before the Big Bang.
Right.
It feels like that.
And that's, that's the vibe I've caught from many other people in their
commentary on it, saying that it seems to refer to, you know, what lies before
the cause of all things, you know?
Yeah.
Like when you're a child and you're like, wait a minute, if God exists
and God created things, wait a minute.
Who?
Who created God?
Yeah.
So yeah, it doesn't take much.
Childlike imaginary type thinking to get to paradoxes, which are unsolvable.
Like anyone can do that with a few leaps of logic, right?
That's right, yes.
I think it's very important to acknowledge that children are fairly natural
philosophers and that we might overstate the complexity or difficulty of philosophy
and imagine that, oh, well, you know, we need to wait till they're a bit older,
but no, children are very ready to engage.
And the reason I mention that, you know, not just that I work in
education, but, and have children, but as you say, anyone can quite
readily discover paradoxical things.
Mm-hmm.
Now, some would say that the source of the paradoxes is
language, which is a good argument.
Dunno if it's a complete argument.
Uh, but the Dao certainly makes that argument that the dao that
can be named is not the Dao.
In other words.
If you're trying to do games with language, you won't get there.
Yeah.
And I have this experience of going from an atheist to a believer in God,
but I can't really use the word God with pretty much any of my friends.
You're a bit of an exception because the Hari Christians have a God, right?
Yes.
So very much a personal, you know, a supreme being who has a personality.
Yes.
Yeah.
So with you, I feel at ease that I can talk about my newfound
relationship with God, but the word God is such a very problem.
Yeah.
It's such a loaded and in a lot of ways, a dead kind of word.
Oh, very good to describe what I'm trying to describe.
But I could say the God that can be named is not the true God.
But I think it's exactly the same idea.
Yeah.
But, but that description.
In, that verse about, what is it?
It's in the dust or, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And you know what, there's some very interesting alternative
translations of that line, which we, we may need to mention it.
It seems to be the origin of all things.
It dulls the sharpness, unties the knots, dims the light becomes one with
the dust, becomes one with the dust.
Mm.
I just love that as a piece of writing.
Oh, it's great.
Yeah.
It's a very poetic text.
And, and, and that's part of it becomes one with the dust.
Mm.
Well that's like, that's where we're all headed, right?
I think it's kind of, I think it's meant to bring that to mind.
Certainly.
Yeah.
Like yeah, it's very evocative, but that's, it's.
If I was trying to find a verse to give someone who was still an atheist, some
sense of what I'm talking about, this is a pretty good one to point towards.
A higher power.
Yeah.
But I don't know.
Do you know in the Dao if there is a God?
Yeah, I, I think it's a, a question that it in some ways gets avoided and that you,
very rarely when you read any commentaries or hear discussion about it, people
don't really engage with the notion of God all that often, but indirectly, you
know, people might talk about it having religious or spiritual meaning for them.
I think of it, this text as a work of philosophy and not, not just as
strictly as a poetic or mystical text.
I think it's a work of philosophy, but expressed often in ause or poetic way.
But wherever there's philosophy, there's often the question of God lurking.
And the, the things that people are trying to work out through philosophy
are often very closely related to the things we're trying to work out
through, through the, the notion of God.
my very kind of amateur understanding is that the, the Dao is explaining
a dynamic of apparent opposites, which is productive of all things
and which resolves all things.
But see, this person who's writing about this has fa discovered something
and is trying to describe it.
That's how I read it.
Agree.
Like then, you know, when I was an atheist, I thought all religions were
delusions based on human fear of death.
Yeah.
Whereas now I think they're all religions are trying to describe
essentially the same thing.
So they're trying to describe an experience which I can't give to
an atheist if they've never had it.
find a way to understand it, put it that way so I can mm-hmm.
So I've been drawn to Buddhism lately.
I've been reading more Christian texts.
Yes.
because I've had a profound experience and I now see the value
in the religions of the world.
Yes.
You no longer just write it off as a scam or a fairy tale or, yeah.
One of the many stories that, in that, you know, that new atheist
that, um, Christopher Hitchens kind of very, Dismissive and, how
idiotic it is and or Richard Dawkins.
Yeah.
Those guys.
You know, they're, they're compelling, um, speakers and writers, and it
already aligned with how I was raised to understand religion myself.
Mm-hmm.
so it made sense to be that guy in the bar in 2005 or
whatever who's like the atheist.
It was definitely a fashionable posture to, at that time where literally
2005 is right on the money of like, and a little still going on, you
know, through to the maybe 2010.
And I think we started thinking about other stuff a bit more.
Uh, I think politics came back, you know, that was a big one, but.
It was fashionable to say that it was an empty, useless thing that
only an idiot could be interested in.
Empty, useless thing that only an idiot could be use.
Interested in.
Yeah.
And or Or find a useful, yeah.
Yeah.
And we'd moved on that.
We're all smarter than that now.
Well, us educated people who've read a bit of philosophy or
whatever, we're smarter than that.
Yeah.
'cause it was like 150 years after Nietzche said God is dead.
Right.
Yeah.
Surely this question has been settled long ago.
Like, and that's what I always thought, Sam.
Yeah.
Let's all move on.
Until I got myself into a spot in life.
Yeah.
AKA being an alcoholic.
Yeah.
That I couldn't get out of.
Mm-hmm.
Without a spiritual solution, without some form of surrender.
Totally.
So once I got to that point, suddenly my atheism.
You know, my dad was an atheist, alcoholic, and he
died at 50, still an atheist.
So that ego, so there's an egotism to it, to that new atheism that
where there's a kind of smugness or self-satisfaction, which is ultimately,
I think if you can find atheism with alcoholic drinking, you get nihilism.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And once you're in nihilism, then you're on the way to an early grave.
Yes.
And if you combine a somewhat helpless state with also this sort of sense
of superiority, it's oof brutal.
Yeah.
There's plenty of people in bars all around the world who will tell you
the answer to the world's problems.
And they're, they're the smartest guy in the bar.
They're the smartest guy on the street.
Maybe even in the world.
Yeah.
Insecure.
Yeah.
Big ego, low self-esteem.
Yeah.
That's a typical alcoholic, irritable.
And that was me.
Yeah.
Irritable, egocentric, aggressive.
Yeah.
And take, take a, take offense at At small things.
Pick on small things.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's not a great way to beat and we've seen, you know.
Or the kind of person that takes delight in pointing out a small typo,
graphical error or a spelling error in someone's otherwise reasonable
comment on a YouTube video.
You know, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
It's like you, you, you're missing the point.
You're not engaging with the real thing Here I was, I was working with the mental
health client the other day who was talking about stuff he read in YouTube
comments and I'm like, bro, yeah, you can't be in that part of the internet.
It's like the darkest part of the internet.
There's some remarkably wise and w wise and wonderful things
that get said in those sections.
And then there's not, you know, there's stuff that is just a tail told by an idiot
full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Yeah.
Which was what came to me earlier.
I think you're in a strong mental position to handle the internet, Sam.
Oh yeah, I am.
I guess, yeah.
Like you take it with a grain of salt.
This person like me is pretty hypersensitive and um, I was like, yeah,
I already got him off Twitter a month ago.
Yeah.
And then he came back a couple of weeks later on, I feel so much better.
I'm off Twitter.
And then he, then he starts quoting the YouTube comments.
'cause it's funny with YouTube, you don't think of it as a social media platform.
Yeah, it is.
It is.
But it is, it is.
Yeah.
It, it is officially classified as that in many, well, they're
banning it for under 16.
That's right.
And it's, it now has that legal classification, but it had,
it had a practical and, uh, technological one before that.
But No, no.
It is now legally and morally being handled in the same way as Instagram
or Twitter, which everyone knows can be, what is it, what's the word?
Carnival, like fun house mirrors.
You know, like, there's just these weird reflections of your own
projections and, and then you are reading other people's weird projections
of stuff and reacting to that.
It's a, it's a fun game for the whole family, but the government says it's
actually not for the whole family.
You need to have a level of maturity grounding to be able to deal with it.
And I wonder if maybe.
You know, 'cause what, when he was, when we were talking about
Christopher Hitchens before, 'cause I mean he also died relatively young
and uh, I think was fond of a drink.
Uh, I dunno if he'd, it was the smoking that killed him.
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
And, and then I think of Dawkins also though, because I mean, he hitchens,
let's face it, smart guy, a really good essayist, a good speaker, a good debater.
And you know, I read his, I read the collection of essays, posthumous, you
know, called arguably, and I think I found something of value in every last essay.
Um, and some of, uh, some of them I agreed with entirely, but he was
completely wrong about the war in Iraq or you know, America's invasion of Iraq.
You're talking Hitchens or Dawkins.
Yeah, Hitchens.
Hitchens.
Yeah.
Now, meanwhile, Dawkins, I think might be the superior intellect,
you know, firm grounding, academically really a really strong.
Record of publication on the topic of evolution, dealing with some
particularly thorny issues in there that are very hard to communicate,
uh, or understand in the first place.
And I think did a wonderful job in a number of books.
The Selfish Gene Climbing Mount Improbable, and those are the only
ones I can think of right now.
But Dawkins came along at the right time for me, kind of having
a not yet deconstructed religious background, but not a faith.
So I didn't really experience the presence of God, but I couldn't quite get with the
idea of evolution, it seemed I was still a sort of a creationist on some level.
Right.
Really?
I've never been a creationist.
Well, no.
As you know, I was an unexamined creationist.
So you'd never felt the presence of God?
No, I had, I had at times previously.
When did it, when did, when did you last feel the presence of God?
No, no.
That's a good, that's a good question.
Um.
Yeah, it's been a while, but that doesn't mean God isn't there.
What age though?
Because you were raised pretty strictly Hari Krishna.
Well, yeah, I hadn't felt it for some time, like in my teenage years when I
went to India, I didn't feel it there either and I didn't, and I started to
wonder if I would and then I did feel it.
Um, oh, when was that?
That sounds important.
Well, I was on the street in lpa, Nagar F Block in Delhi, new Delhi,
and it's a recent sort of middle class neighborhood, but it's, you know,
when I was first there, it seemed like an overwhelming, crazy slum.
But you know, after a while I came to realize and I was very comfortable.
You know, relatively orderly part of Delhi.
And I felt less overwhelmed by it.
I started to feel more comfortable there.
And I'd been to some temples and visited some archeological sites and
like I was having a nice time and I did a little bit of volunteer work.
But, you know, when I went to temples, I didn't really feel God, I felt like I
was in a real salesy sort of situation and, you know, oh, what's this white
guy doing in like a nont tourist temple?
Like, what's this all about?
And so I just felt like an object of spectacle or interest to others
instead of just being able to experience what was happening.
I still see you like that, Sam.
Oh, well, no, just walking down High Street.
It's very true.
And you know me, and yet I'm still an object of spectacle and interest.
It's, it's very true.
So you can imagine how I stuck out like a sore thumb.
You did?
Yeah.
Plus I knew a lot of the, I kind of had a more knowledge of the local stuff than.
Most people who look like me.
So I was this very much doubly and object of fascination.
Yeah.
Why are you here?
Uh, you're up to something.
You know what I mean?
And they weren't wrong.
I just didn't know what I was up to.
I couldn't tell them.
But part of what I was there to discover was, well, this, this religion I'd grown
up in, you know, could it resonate for me now in my twenties, mid twenties?
And also my girlfriend at the time had been on an exchange, and so it was just
sort of an excuse to visit finally.
Anyway, so I'm wondering how my neighborhood, where a place where I
felt comfortable and at home relatively.
And, uh, you know, I lived there for three months and
got, you know, a nodding acquaintance with a lot of the, you know, locals.
And, uh, I stopped being an object of curiosity for most people after a while.
Right?
Anyway.
But then one day the Sikhs came past.
In a big procession and they were doing something that was very familiar to me.
They were banging cymbals and drums and wearing orange and going down the
street and they were handing out food.
Now, does this all sound familiar?
Mm, very Harry Krishna, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then I thought about it and I was like, wait a minute.
I know enough about the Sikhs.
Let's see.
They don't worship God so much as they're kind of all about the guru,
but the guru is the way to God.
That's what the Hari Christian is.
We're all about God, but it's the guru is is the way.
Uh, and we do the food distribution on Sundays and you know, well also
every day of the week in the city and we do these processions and all this,
and I'm like, Hmm, did we just rip off the Sikhs whole, the whole jam, right?
I think they kind of did.
But that these were all the thoughts that I had later at the time.
I was like, oh, how good's this?
I love this.
These people are great.
And they handed me a cookie and they were smiling and I ate it and I felt good.
And I went along down the street with 'em for a bit and I was like, I think I
even vaguely recognized these Bud Johns.
They're a little different actually.
You, they're not by Johns technically, but you know, whatever.
The mantras, the hymns and, but it's kind of a fun, it's a festive atmosphere.
And I felt really connected to these people and they felt, that I felt
that, and they felt, you know, it was a, it was a very natural and
automatic thing and everybody got it.
And so.
I felt moved by the spirit.
Right.
On that occasion.
Mm-hmm.
So the, the Christians would describe that as fellowship.
Yeah.
I went to the Golden Temple in Amate, so, and hung out
with the Sikhs you've been to.
And I was, I've not been to the Golden Temple.
I was, um, pretty strictly atheist at that point, but I felt
something, I mean, I went to India.
I was drawn to India.
I tried to get there when I was 19.
Didn't make it past the Ambassador Hotel in Bangkok.
In Bangkok, yeah.
Which I've told on this podcast before episode nine or 10 maybe.
The Ambassador Hotel episode.
Mm-hmm.
You never got past Bangkok.
Yeah.
And then I finally got to India and I.
I would say when I got to the Golden Temple, it was such a good vibe.
It seems like a cool place.
Seism has to be one of the cooler religions.
I think it's very interesting.
It's a more recent religion, but it has ancient roots.
You realize, oh, okay.
It's drawing on a number of traditions.
You know, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, it's jainism.
It's bringing together all the major strands of Indian religion,
uh, or the religion of, you know, that part of the world I should say.
And those traditions tap into others broad, more broadly.
So, and then you find Sikhs all over the world.
Yeah.
And with temples all over the world, and anyone can come.
Yes.
It was a very open, very welcoming.
They fed us a meal.
Yep.
Which they do for everyone who goes there, which is pretty extraordinary.
That's right.
They've made this commitment.
And that's where, I don't know what Dawkins and Hitchens would say about
religion when it, when you see it like in a beautiful building with people
being kind and you feel a warm vibe.
And I was still an atheist, but I felt the vibe, you know?
Well, they would feel some, they would find something cynical to say, perhaps.
And what would they say about two guys in Thornbury in 2025
talking about the Da de Ching?
Like, why are we talking about this when ev you know, there's a war in Ukraine
and a war in Gaza and Well, it's a, it's a like climate change and Sure.
Like why are we talking about the talf.
You know, I'll give Dawkins a little bit of credit.
I don't think he'd bother doing the what about him at us and
telling, telling us we should think more about Ukraine or whatever.
But what he would say when did, what about is in peak about 10 years ago?
Yeah.
That was a, that was huge, wasn't it?
It was probably peak Twitter.
I'm feeling like.
Yeah, it was definitely a very Twitter thing.
Peak.
Twitter was peak.
What about, we've seen a lot of what about on other platforms, but
I think Twitter was the number one.
Yeah.
Like the home ground of what?
About what?
Baptism.
I hadn't thought about that for a while.
Yeah.
And occasionally I still see the phrase because when you catch people doing
it, it's like, yeah, do you know what?
I'm glad we called that out 10 years ago.
Yeah.
It's like it is a shitty way to argue things.
It is a shitty, yeah.
It's not a good conversation.
No, it isn't.
And do you know what?
You can propose a change of topic.
You can say, personally, I feel that this topic is more
important and let's change that.
But as a method of invalidating whatever is being discussed, I
don't think it's very satisfactory.
And I think what Dawkins would go with instead, I think Hitchens too would
be, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and do my hitchings impression.
Well undoubtedly, you know, uh, having a meaningful experience.
And that's, I won't take that away from you.
Uh, but your conclusions about what the meaning of this meaningful
experience, one, one could debate.
And in fact, I would insist, I would insist on debating it.
If you were to propose that I accept the presence of God based on the
fact that you've had this meaningful experience that moved you in this moment.
I would say that is not a sufficient argument.
That's what Hitchens would say.
But I reflecting now think God was at the Golden Temple Amateur.
And I experienced God right.
With those people who fed me.
Yes.
And I think, and it took me years.
Yeah.
But I was already an alcoholic and I already needed help,
but I didn't know it yet.
You know?
That's interesting.
And, and of course, the people that are greeted sometimes with the least
charity and the most, uh, you know, a person you would describe that way,
and yourself and a person who doesn't even know they're in need of help,
you know, that's very interesting.
And I think that that's part of why religion exists now, Dawkins
in his later years, you know, what he would say about that experience.
Ah, Joe, yes.
You know, I, as much as I want to take up the matter of whether this phenomenology,
the, you know, points to any firm conclusions about gold or not, which,
you know, obviously I won't accept, but in my later years, I, I have found
myself, uh, I must admit I'm drawn to cultural anglicanism and I realize that.
It's, it's the culture in which I was raised and the de
it does have a meaning to me.
And I, I, I won't reject that purely on the grounds that I don't
have a personal belief in God.
And neither does the Archbishop of Canterbury, but he still believes
correctly, or Rowan Williams the Pryor, that this is still a
tremendously valuable institution.
And I have come to see that.
Mm-hmm.
And of course it has its problems, but it brings a lot of meaning to people's
lives and it does useful things also.
And it gives out food to people and, you know, so yeah, I think they've both
got a good point to make, but I, but it doesn't really prove or disprove anything.
'cause that's my retort to both of their arguments is when I came
into addiction recovery circles and I needed to find a higher power.
Mm-hmm.
The line I was pointed to in the book was, who am I to say there is no God indeed.
And that was my conclusion at some point, who am I to say that there is no God Yes.
Like the amount of ego.
Yes.
And people like Dawkins and Hitchens have the ego Oh, very much.
And Sam Harris.
Yes.
Like all those new atheists, they didn't lack, they haven't lacked for
ego, you know, so, and certainty, more importantly, I think that's
their greater crime in many ways.
I mean, I think the ego leads to the certainty, you know, but there's a.
And there's a brittleness to it because of course, for every brilliant
argument the Hitchens and Dawkins made, and there are some great clips
where they really do tear it up.
They spit, they spitfire, they drop bars.
Uh, they've got some bops on the net.
Right?
But here's the problem.
Does it actually convince anybody?
Either way, it's like whatever your prior position, whatever your leaning
or feeling was prior, it's, it's kind of, kind of go to work on that.
And I'm not saying they never changed anybody's mind, but I
think that that might've been a process that was already happening.
And the, and the problem of like the phenomenology of that experience,
the feeling moved by the spirit, like we've both had this experience
with Sikh people that I don't reject the feeling I had about that.
And I don't, yes, but I don't.
It was the last time you felt the presence of God.
No, it's not The last time.
A few months later in South India, I.
See, I often did not feel this inner temple.
Right.
In fact, I didn't, I think often felt very anti or unreligious
feelings in temples often
was disappointed how I felt.
Or disappointed by some aspect of the experience or just often just the
intense drive to monetize whatever was, you know, like the presence of tourists
in these places, which, you know, is understandable, but it gets in the way.
Right.
Anyway, so there was this temple in South India in not Oh God, ma yeah.
In um, Rey, there's some, a lot of amazing temples in the south.
This is just, uh, it's, you know, maybe in the top five in terms of grandeur
and the number of visitors it gets.
but I was not allowed into the sanctum sanc doum, you know, the inner.
Space I was allowed into the outer spaces and the, you know, middle and
towards the inner, but there was a chamber at the heart of this, I don't
know, thousand year old building.
But religion's being practiced there a lot longer than that.
And it's an extraordinary place I highly recommend visiting.
I did not get bothered by the usual tourist stuff after a point.
Like I was just allowed to just experience the space without being hassled.
And the, the walls were black with and greasy from all the GI lamps, you know,
you know, and like, you know, you can't have electric light in this place.
It's not the d it's just not what they, they're just doing what they've
been doing there for a long time.
Things are done the same way, more or less, So you've just, I noticed the
grace of the walls and so the, and like the blackness from the smoke and
gh, you know, like clarified butter.
It's a particular smell and I strongly associate it with
religious experience and worship.
Right.
And so I already starting to feel in irreverent mood, and I was
feeling like not the weight of the centuries before me, but you know
what I mean, like the mm, the, the presence of the centuries before me.
Mm-hmm.
I wasn't feeling weighed down by it or oppressed or odd or
anything, but I just felt a kind of hush and a reverence, you know?
And, and I was, there was these little alcoves with different deities in them.
It's very, you know, hinduism's, very intensely polytheistic, but.
The branch of Hinduism am I come from Vaishna, GOIA, Vaishna.
They believe in, you know, one God to, you know, rule them all, Lord of the Rings,
but they're all manifestations of the one divinity, as are every human being.
Every human being's a manifestation of that one divinity, right?
So you are a little piece of it and there's a little piece of the
divinity in each one of us, et cetera.
Part and parcel.
I wasn't thinking about any of that though, but I was kind of
feeling it on some level and then I was just kind of taking it in and
just like really taking my time.
It was great.
And then, you know, into the, into the chamber inside that, you know, you got
the outer chamber, the middle chamber, then there's kind of another one inside
that I think, and then there's the tiny little one at the heart of it.
And I was not allowed in there.
Up to that point.
I was not treated like a tourist.
Or a local, just treated neutrally.
But then when it came to this point, it was like, no, no, you can't come in here.
And I was like, I was like, okay, I expected to be stopped before now.
And people were pressing into this small space and there was just such
a vibe, so much atmosphere, and people really feeling it and, and
I was just content to remain there.
And then it was on my way just kind of observing for a while, and then I
was on my way out and then I stopped again and I just really took it in and
I was just like, I just felt, you know?
You felt it?
Yeah.
Mm.
I felt.
This ancient presence.
Mm-hmm.
That's the one.
It's very hard to describe.
Yeah.
And you know what?
The ancient presence, the ancient, ancient presence.
Well, that takes us back to the passage really, doesn't it?
I think the ancient presence is probably the before all the ancestors.
Yeah.
That's the best way.
Before all the answers.
I've never said those two words together.
God.
Yeah.
It's a good, I think that captures the exact feeling, and
I take it as proof of something.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I couldn't tell you exactly what, but I think that that's what
this chapter is kind of pointing to, that, you know, like, you know, you
walk into this place, like India's a stressful place to travel in, right?
Yeah.
I found it very stressful.
And you walk, you walk into a space like this, you're still in
hassled tourist mode for a while.
You've kind of, kind of give yourself time and I.
And I just didn't really get that opportunity.
And I feel like maybe if I was giving myself time more often in the right
sort of space, and of course the right sort of company, 'cause you know, the
confirmation of others isn't important.
But I've gotta tell you, Sam, God is not trapped in a building in India.
No, God is everywhere.
No, that.
Well, that's exactly right.
And the, but the reason we create these spaces is to focus that experience
and to, to sharpen it a little.
But of course, you know, proper, proper Paul line, Christians will tell
you, you know, wherever you gather and remember me, I am present, right?
Mm-hmm.
You know, then I, I think that that is, that seems as true as any other statement.
And certainly these huge buildings, they cost a lot to maintain and, and they
sort of take on this life of their own.
And sometimes it becomes about the institution and not about.
The object of the whole thing.
Yeah.
I think this verse is pointing to something kind of more primitive.
And for my spiritual adventure of the last 10 years, I haven't felt the need
to enter a church, join a religion, or into a church or physically or
metaphorically go to a temple, or you're not gonna join a little fellowship, do
some Bible study in someone's front room.
Well, I have joined a fellowship, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
But I can't really talk about that on the show, and it has scripture, but Yeah.
Yeah.
But whenever we gather, I would say that God is present.
For sure.
And it's, it's, well, and it's the, it's the, it's the presence of, it's the
presence of other believers and people that will work with you in your belief
or your non-belief as the case may be.
And times when you find that you had a crisis of faith a little while ago.
Yeah.
And the cure for it was just to double down, you know?
Yeah.
I, I'm, I'm still an analytical person and an overthinker, so
I'm gonna go through periods of.
A crisis of faith.
But I mean, I think my current spiritual advisor said that even
Jesus was agnostic a couple of times.
Yeah.
And as I said, Archbishop Rowan Williamson agnostic.
He didn't say atheist, but he said agnostic.
Because I came to that, I can't remember when I had that, those words came into
my mind, but I, I was like, yeah, who am I to say God doesn't exist often?
It's a, it's a, and when I think about the most convinced atheists,
I know they are the people who would say that God doesn't exist because
they're so sure of themselves, Sam.
Well, they take themselves as their own authority.
Mm.
And and this is what offends some religious people who believe strongly
in the idea of taking some other authority as not just technically
correct, but the literally the method.
That's the, how you get the benefit is to accept another authority
and you that it doesn't work.
Yes.
Surrender, right?
Yes.
Surrender.
And that if you try to navigate life purely on your own.
Terms, try as you might, you can be the best person in the world and, you
know, do the best work on yourself and go to therapy and do exercise and yoga
and, and, uh, journal and, uh, read the right philosophy and maintain, you
know, a good set of rounded friendships where there's an equal give and take.
And you can do all that and still not be the, the full authority on everything.
And, and I mean, I guess that's the point of having, partly the point of
having those friendships, et cetera, and referring to the work of others,
you know, in writing or pods, et cetera.
I've very much let myself be guided and influenced by others quite
consciously, but it's quite another thing to, but I'm the arbiter on what
I'll accept and reject in terms of the teachings or the thoughts of others.
But the idea of surrender is way beyond that.
It is not allowing yourself to be influenced.
It is not, um, not taking an oppositional stance, just, just, you know, I'll,
I'll, I'll allow this to happen.
I won't reject it outta hand.
It's not even like actively seeking it out.
It's just like, nope, I, I declare that I shall obey this thing.
Which is really something, you know, normally what are we obeying?
You know?
Well the Christians would say, well mammon that, that's who
we're all serving, isn't it?
Yeah.
I mean, theoretically I've surrendered, I've surrendered to God and now
I'm trying to do God's will.
Well, 'cause that's what follows from surrender, isn't it?
And what God's will is isn't often clear, but what God's will isn't.
Yeah.
Is almost always clear.
Yeah.
So for the last, I would say month, I agree.
I agree entirely with that since I've had my new spiritual advisor.
Mm-hmm.
I've been playing with this concept of just doing, I already surrendered
nearly 10 years ago, but I seem to forgot that that surrender happened.
Ah, the ego covers these things over, doesn't it?
Yeah.
So I've still been trying to control things that I can't possibly control.
Like even scientifically, I cannot, no matter how rational, like no matter
how you look at it, rationally, I can't control a lot of the things that
my mind tries to get me to control.
Right?
Yes.
So I've gotta surrender those things.
Yes.
But then it's very helpful to have this concept of God's will, because what I've
always had, and I don't know about you, Sam, but I've always had a conscience.
Sure.
So I've always known whether you are atheist or not.
That's right.
As an atheist, I had a conscience.
Mm-hmm.
And now I get to bring it in as a mm-hmm.
Believer and put it to work and to try and stick to it.
It's, um.
It's really helping, it's really helping my relationships.
It's helping my mm-hmm.
Peace of mind.
Um, I'm, but I, I mean, it's gonna make me what my dad would've thought
of as his real goodie two shoes.
'cause I'm not gonna, you'll never be a goodie two shoes because
I'm not gonna, like, in the final sense, I'm not gonna steal, I'm
not gonna lie, I'm not gonna cheat.
I'm, yeah.
You know, if I'm gonna do God's will in every moment, then I'm
gonna be quite a different person.
Well, no, of course.
Uh, well, actually, well, but no, but isn't this an interesting
question you've raised?
If I follow God's will, will I be a different person to, you
know, who I was when I was 20?
Or leaving aside the, just the process of maturity.
Right.
and just bitter experience that you've learned from.
Right.
But aside from that, like all else being equal, right.
Would you be.
Different.
Okay.
Well, your answer to that is yes, at least to some degree for the last month,
I've done certain things differently.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Because when I go to do the thing that's not, well, I've
noticed a difference in you.
Yeah.
Because when I go to do the thing that's not God's will, you
know, I, I don't You feel it.
Yes.
And you don't.
And everyone has a conscience.
Well, nearly everyone.
Um, and Dawkins and Hitchens argued passionately that, you
know, the believers did not have, uh, a monopoly on conscience.
Yes, that's right.
Or morality.
I agree with that.
I, I, I, yeah.
And I don't think there's any sense arguing you have,
we all have a conscience.
That's right.
And I don't think there's any, unless apart from sociopaths perhaps.
Um, but even some of them it is said sociopaths and
psychopaths, are they psychopaths?
I thinks that's right.
Sociopaths can actually have a conscience.
Um, it's a complicated thing and it's debated, but Yeah.
But when it comes to, you know, 99% of us.
It's pretty clear that nearly everybody has at least some notion of right and
wrong that isn't just held intellectually.
Right.
So we are, you know, laws or rules, but no, no.
Some sort of conviction that's coming from within.
Right.
And yeah, I shouldn't speak for anyone else.
That's always been my experience.
No, no.
I, I think this is most, I mean, I mean, I've always had a strong sense, I
mean, a lot of people right and wrong.
And when I was like destroying myself with alcohol, I knew that I, you knew.
Now I would say I was going against God, yes.
I was destroying creation.
Well, well, I would, I would point you to well, my understanding of
Paul's formulation of sin, which is not to break the rules, but to miss
the mark, to fail to love others.
I love that.
To sin is to miss the mark.
Yes.
And, and to, yeah.
But see, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because what's the other word for the dao is the way Yes.
In that quote.
So to mi, so sin is to miss the way, the way Yeah.
Is God's will.
Yes.
Can I say that?
That's that.
I think that that's what this verse, so I can be a Daoist.
Yeah.
And follow God's will, but I'd call it something else.
Yes.
But I would know I would do the same thing, which is when I know
something's wrong, I don't do it.
There you go.
I put it really simply.
Well, I think, and that would be following the way.
Yes.
In DAOs terms.
Yes, that's right.
And I think the Dao often is saving something quite simple
and it chooses to do it in a fairly obtuse or paradoxical way.
Because I think the assumption, one of the many assumptions, but one of the key ones
in the text is that we experience things paradoxically and that we feel at odds
with ourselves and we feel at odds with.
We feel divided within, and we feel that the world is this and not this.
And, and, and we, we experience our consciousness not as a unified thing.
And as we were discussing last time that we are plagued by strange
and sudden intrusive thoughts.
And we've experienced our consciousness as this just wild, unruly, bizarre thing.
Oh, I go through two hours of hell every morning.
Yeah.
Just from my thoughts.
That's absolutely horrible.
Yeah.
But I, I go, I go to bed dreading it knowing that I'm gonna wake up
and have two hours of struggle.
That's, you know, that is brutal chunk of, that's while I'm sitting in
peak hour traffic, driving to work.
Oh, well, no, the Geneva Convention bans, uh, uh, you know, commuting
in traffic, uh, I think you cannot make a prisoner war do it.
It's cruel and unusual punishment.
Oh.
But, but, but, but I was gonna say something before about, um.
The conscience thing.
So when I said before, but Dawkins and Hitchens would say that, you
know, believers and non-believers alike can have a conscience.
But I think that there's an important thing to add here, which is that
people will experience this conscience and that fail to act on it, and
they will feel tortured by this.
It is.
But if you're a nihilist, it doesn't matter.
Right?
Well, if you're a nihilistic alcoholic, drinking yourself to
death, you can do whatever the fuck you want because nothing matters.
No, but, but you, you don't experience this as liberating or as meaningful.
That's, you know, that's why I think, you know, nihilism is not like a phase
we all pass through when we're 15.
I think it's a phase we all pass through, perhaps by the day or the week that
we all have that that nihilism is just there waiting for us at all times.
Yeah.
Like, like entropy or, or.
Alienation or any, you know, these are sort of universal experiences, but another
one of those universal experiences is it's not available to all at all times,
but some sense of this ancient presence or a sense of, a sense of universal
meaning or something like that, which I firmly believe, I've known atheists
that have experienced that and then have formulated it in some different way.
But that's the thing we're pointing to.
But, but when it comes to trying to follow your conscience, it
seems to really help to have some sense of a power or an authority.
Whose will you are?
Or, or its will that you are acting?
In accordance.
It's quite curious to me, Sam, that as a former atheist, I
know what God's will isn't.
Yes.
But I'm telling you, it's pretty fucking obvious to me.
Yeah.
Because I mm-hmm.
Have experienced a loving God.
Yes.
Who cares for me and wants the best for me.
Abba.
Yeah.
That's the word that some a lot of people are using now, perhaps Abba.
Yeah.
He who precedes, or she who precedes all ancestors.
Mm-hmm.
Abba Ahma.
Yeah.
Mm.
Uh, the ancestor of all ancestors.
Yes.
Because the other part about having a God is that you think that if you do
the right thing, things might turn out better than if you connive and cheat
and steal or take shortcuts or, yeah.
Whereas if you are purely a materialist, you're just gonna think.
Well, I'll just steal that thing, or I'll just scam that person.
Or I'll just cut that corner.
Well, yeah, yeah.
Or, or you might, you, you might say, oh, I won't do that because it's not optimal,
because, uh, you know, there might be some social cost to me to do this.
There might lose reputation or whatever.
But I don't think that that's very satisfying.
And I don't think, oh, I, I, I will not steal because a rule says I shouldn't
or I will not steal because it might damage my reputation if I'm caught.
Or that a sanction will be applied by the courts, that I
might go to prison or something.
I don't think that really gets at it.
And when my, you know, and when my kids say, when my students say, you
know, something charmingly naive, like, you know, we need the police
to stop people from doing crimes.
And, and I'm like, I, okay, so on the way here to school today, you
didn't take someone's lunch money.
Even though you could have, because the cops might get you, and they're
like, no, what are you talking about?
And I'm like, why didn't you rob someone?
And they're like, I didn't want to.
I'm like, why didn't you want to?
Is it 'cause of the cops or is it 'cause you just don't want to do it?
And they're like, well, I didn't need to take anyone's lunch money.
And I'm like, well, even if you did need to, you were hungry.
You'd still not want to do it.
Right.
Why don't, why don't you just reach over there and why don't you just
punch that other kid in the face?
Just do it right now.
Who cares?
Right?
There's no cops here.
Right?
Okay.
They might come later and arrest you, but, but you naturally recoil at the
thought of doing that to somebody.
Why?
Because why would I want to?
You're only gonna do that if you are in some form of distress or you've
dehumanized that person for whatever reason, that basically there's something
in us that goes, it's not right.
But to just encode this purely as a rule is not very satisfactory.
To encode it as like a materialist, let's seek the optimum path through
life for maximum personal success.
That's not very satisfactory.
I think it seems to work much better if we try to experience
this as a truer way of living.
And then that, yeah, I don't see, I've started reading a little bit of Christian
stuff, but I don't do anything 'cause I want to go to heaven or avoid hell.
Correct.
But in the present moment, I want a clear conscience.
Yes.
So it's part of getting sober.
I did stop stealing little things from the supermarket and I haven't done it
for 10 years and I've stayed sober.
Yeah.
And it was, it wasn't obvious at the time when they told me, you've
gotta stop doing any stealing.
Um, personally, I personally, it doesn't bother me if a person robs
from Coles or Wool Woolies, uh, have however, or Bunnings or whoever, but.
I get what you mean.
Yeah.
I could, I I had the, I had the form.
It's undermining your spirit.
I had the form of justification, which is they extract
billions of dollars of profit.
Well, they're thieves.
Yeah.
Therefore, it's morally right.
It's okay to steal from thieves.
And then I was told, well, Joe, if you want to save your own life and
stop drinking alcohol till you die, you are gonna have to stop stealing.
And I don't really care what your moral justification is.
You need to stop doing that because now you're gonna live
a life of rigorous honesty.
And I have tried to stick to that.
And I haven't stolen a single thing.
I haven't, I haven't fudged anything.
Um, or failed to Yeah.
Repay a small loan or Yeah.
Yeah.
the difference between someone who's shooting at something and
someone who's not, it's profound.
Mm.
That's, yeah, that's interesting.
And, and I, you know, it is, is it, it's one thing I learned in therapy.
It's like, do you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror or not?
Are you living by what you'd like, like to or not?
Is the, is the Dao trying, trying to tell us what to do?
No, because it knows that any attempt to encode in language what you ought to
do or, and ought not to do, will fail.
And that people will game that language.
Mm.
They will seek exceptions.
They will rules lawyer it, they will seek to apply it.
Im, uh, impartially or very partially to themselves and very
partially to those they don't like.
And this is a fundamental teaching in the Bible that most humans are
very uneven with their application of justice to themselves and to others.
And I think that that is very true.
And one of the reasons this happens is because if we mistake the word
of the rule for the purpose and the, the, the real thing, that we
will try to fucking play games with it, because that's what humans do.
So what does the, how the Dao avoids this problem by going straight at
the paradoxical nature of it, right?
And it goes, I'm not gonna give you the easy answers.
You have to work on it.
I'm gonna tell you.
About the, I'm gonna tell you about the forces and the things that are at work.
I'm gonna try to describe the landscape of your own consciousness and the
landscape of the universe itself.
And then I'm gonna set the coordinates, and then you are going to navigate a path
through the middle of those coordinates.
And you are responsible for that.
And you have to be conscious of that at all times, but also become
unconscious of it and just act in the right way when it is clear and
obvious that there's one thing to do.
Mm-hmm.
So it's sort of, it's, it's not being mystical, it's not
dodging the question, it's, it's pointing us to inescapable things.
And it's, it's, it's basically, I feel like it just states over and over again.
You can't cheat the system.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Yeah.
See, I, I'm sitting here.
Yeah.
Trying to be honest.
The system meaning the nature of things?
Yeah.
Reality itself.
Your own experience.
I'm sitting here trying to be honest and I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
I don't have a path financially to say, being able to take an interstate
holiday with my kids or to feel the level of security financially where you
wouldn't have to stress about your stats.
Yeah.
I don't have a path forward.
Like a lot of people are out there hustling and side hustles and
Yeah, on, on interstate holiday.
It's not on the cards for me for quite some time, so yeah.
I don't know how to make life the way I want it to be, if that makes sense.
I don't know that, but I have faith.
Faith, what you mean?
I see what you mean.
Yeah.
That I have faith now that if I am.
As good a person as I can be.
Mm-hmm.
I will live the best life that's possible for me.
Now does that mean I never leave Victoria again?
I actually have no idea.
But I, you know, I sometimes wonder myself about that.
Yeah.
But like, I, I have that faith now, and so I just, you know, I don't
just, I do my job because I wanted to do a job that was, that had meaning.
Yes.
And that's why even today, I, I had a good day at work because I did my job
trying to do a good job and trying to connect with people with a mental illness.
Yeah.
And the other stuff, the system stuff, the stats is just the game.
Correct.
So I, you know what you're pointing to the stuff that the jail would very readily
recognize, the tension between legalism and the need for systems and hierarchies
and authorities and the need for something much more spontaneous and true than that.
Yeah.
I wanted it points to both those things.
Yeah.
Yes.
I wanted meaning I got meaning.
Yeah.
And now I've got meaning.
What do I want?
Cash.
Yes.
You know, but I can't get cash.
Well, it's interesting you're working your way down Maslow's Hierarchy of needs from
the, yeah, from the top to the bottom.
Yeah.
And of course, that's what, well, that's what a lot of your dummies do, isn't it?
You start, you know, Kami, start with the bottom stuff, you know,
survival, status, autonomy.
And then they work their way up to, you know, the, well,
they might eventually discover.
After adding another wing to the mansion.
Actually, I think there's more to life than this, and I haven't
quite managed to get at something.
I might be missing something here.
And then the DBA bums are like, nah, man, let's start with the things
that are just epically and eternally true, and just not worry about the
other stuff, which is all very well.
And then you've got kids, and then you're like, actually, I think
part of my dharma is to provide materially for these children.
Yeah.
And that, that's as true as, uh, sitting around me talking
about the Dow or whatever.
Yeah.
But you know, I, they, they do not count on me for an interstate holiday.
And if they never have one on my dime, that'll be okay.
Because like, just like you said with, you know, if you never managed to get,
if you don't manage to get through life without, you know, the tiniest,
tiniest shortcut or act of dishonesty, I mean, you could hardly be blamed.
Right.
But shoot, shooting at it is, is something.
And so.
You know, can you but point, can you do everything for your kids?
No.
Can you do what's, what's really needed and what's really important?
Yes, you probably can.
I think the point is, I think we should wrap it up, but yeah, I
think the point is about God's will, or let's call it the way Yeah.
Is I can start again right now.
Yes.
Like I can as I leave here tonight.
Yes.
I can drive home.
Yes.
And I can get back and even if I've been dishonest today, I get to start again.
The way is always there ready for you to place your feet upon it and me for me.
And I know, yeah.
And I know that I need further surrender.
I need to let go of, more of, I'm gonna engage a new psychologist and
just try and do some old school CBT to just try and let go of trying
to control things with my thoughts.
It's insane, Sam.
Well actually maybe things I try and control with my thoughts, uh.
Things in the future, um, things that are clearly not in my control and I've done
it my whole adult life, or things that don't even exist, things that will never
happen, and I'm trying to stop them from happening by thinking about them and,
you know, like, like boxing with shadows.
Yeah.
So there's so much work to, there's a lifetime of work still to do, to
clear my fucking head and just come into the present moment, you know?
Um, not, but I, I get a chance every moment if that makes sense.
And I'm gonna throw whatever I can at it.
If that's a new psychologist, I'm gonna throw that at it.
Um, even if it's hard to afford and whatever.
So I'm always, you know, since I got sober, I'm, I'm drafting my life and I'm
trying every day to write a better draft.
Does that make sense?
I, I cannot tell you how much sense it makes.
Yeah.
I feel exactly the same way.
And yeah, it's like, I, I think I see you doing a more
steady job of it than me, but.
I think the aim and the intention, the method is much the same.
Um, although in my case, I don't really have a method
actually, so, or not, not one.
Not one that's as worked out as that.
But it certainly is the same sort of commitment to like, okay, let's just
try and put our feet on the path again.
And that you've got a moment.
Yeah.
Every moment you can begin again.
Right.
And the Dao is basically like, do you remember when we were like 20?
No.
Let's see.
I had these slightly younger friends in law, and I was maybe 25.
They were a few years younger.
And There was this little thing that was going on for a while of someone would
say, ah, damn, I just lost the game.
Ah, apropos, nothing, nothing's happened.
There's no, there's no co There was no contest that was taking place.
And they lost the game.
You'd lose the game when you started thinking.
About losing the game.
Mm-hmm.
So it was just this little trick.
And so sometimes a person might say it 10 times in a day, like they'll
just on a streak of just losing the game constantly, basically.
It's like, oh, I got in my head.
Yeah.
I just lost the game.
You've gotta stay positive, right?
Yeah.
It's like you, you're in your head and you're like, I'm playing the game.
I'm fighting to win.
And it's like, bro, you lost the game already.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, that's what the DAOs trying to teach us.
Yeah.
I find it's easy to be spiritual when things are going my way, but oh boy.
It's easy in adversity.
I very quickly can revert to atheism and like, or even worse, just cursing God,
you know, I, I don't, I think the act of cursing God is profound and fundamental.
You, I mean, it's a experience you shared with every other believer and every
other figure in the Bible who, you know.
Yeah.
It's, I'm a late bloomer 'cause I had 35 years of pure atheism.
Apart from a few LSD trips, which showed me things I couldn't quite explain.
Um, yeah, Buddha type revelations.
Oh, connectedness of all things.
Yeah.
Can't do it justice in words, but yeah.
No, it's impossible.
Yeah, it blew my mind.
But yeah, 35 years of atheist conditioning and 10 years of, of the
spirit of the spiritual adventure.
Yeah.
And I've ended up reading, you know, stuff that Jesus said
and talking about God's will.
So am I on path to become a Christian?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Well that's the point that the Dao would also say you don't
like, no, you don't know.
You can't say what the outcome of your action is gonna be.
You, and you can't control that.
You, I mean, you have to sort of try to do right thought, right action, all that.
We wait, uh, sometimes no thought, right.
Action.
Right.
But you know, with, particularly with thing, you know, often with music or.
To really respond to someone at work meaningfully.
Right.
Take the thought away and just try to engage.
Yeah.
And you know, other times you have to stop and be thoughtful
and deliberate and consider your actions carefully, et cetera.
And so you have to mix up your approaches constantly.
And, but I would say I see someone who is actually just quite
steadily, steadily making progress, whether you realize it or not.
And there's certainly this drive forward and it's like the, and you
find that the adventure is calling you somewhere and you go there.
Yeah.
When the adventure calls you, you go, my spiritual advisor says, I have a thirst.
Yeah.
And that's, that's the, um, that's the metaphor they use in the worries.
What's the, I can't remember the phrase, but it's like the passion
of the convert or whatever.
Yes.
What's the phrase?
Yes, the, the zeal.
The zeal, yes.
The neo zeal.
Yeah.
I have the zeal of the convert Uhhuh because I had 35 years of
atheist conditioning, which is probably still makes up a lot more
of my thinking and actions than the 10 years of vague spirituality.
But I have this thirst.
Yes, yes.
I have this thirst because I've experienced things that have
been very profound for me mm-hmm.
With a higher power.
And now I have a thirst to understand those things and experience more of them.
And I really think it's probably gonna take up the
rest of what's left of my life.
Well is I'm much more interested in the spiritual plane
than I am the material now.
Yes.
In a lot of ways.
Yes.
And hopefully there's some.
Uh, you know, truth in the, the, the offer that was made to you.
You know what Joe?
You're gonna continue to live your life in this way, engaging in these petty acts
of dishonesty, stealing with whatever moral justification you may have.
Or are you gonna do the thing that will actually leave, live
better, feel better, that yeah.
Leads to a better life?
And what is exactly that definition of a better life and what's
being promised within that?
Well, hmm, certainly it's not cash.
Yeah.
Well, and holidays and cars and, but it's interesting.
It's none of that, I dunno.
I think sometimes, you know, like there was this old lady that used
to live at the bottom of the hill in Dean's Marsh and, you know, her son
was a jockey, a champion jockey, and I think he died young and relatively.
And so she was a kind of a.
You know, one of these old country types that repeats things, you know, but, but
not in a forgetful, senile sort of way.
No, she was very sharp, but she wanted, she just, she wanted
to tell you the good news.
She wanted to tell you the thing she'd worked out.
She, you know, it was her duty to share it and to share it
again and again, the gospel.
Right.
But she would often say, what's for you won't go by you and
it'll come, and things like that.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I don't know.
I was 16 and I was like, I think I had a level of like, I was indulging her
and being patient, but I don't know.
I kind of thought, yeah, I don't know.
There might be something in that.
And I, I've come back to those thoughts many times.
I'm like, if it's for you, it won't go by you.
If it's for you, it won't go by you.
Yeah.
And what's the other one?
It'll come.
Yeah.
Okay.
I quite like That's very Dao.
It is very, very da.
It's like, it doesn't say what will come.
Mm.
Doesn't say what's for you.
Yeah.
It's a, it doesn't make promises of that kind, but that's the point.
Promises and threats, that's for fools, you know?
And like, uh, I think Richard and our friends, Richard and Dickey and
Chris would agree that, you know, threats and promises that's for
children, you know, and for falls.
And in fact, I don't think it's even the best approach with children, you
know, and that they, they were wrong to characterize religion as a simple sort
of tales of hell and tales of heaven.
I mean, sure there is that cartoonish quality to it at times, but the real call,
you see the thing you were talking about before something opened up and you just,
you had to sort of find out where it went.
It's, there's an old fashioned term, a calling.
Hmm.
Right.
And so when you have a calling, it doesn't really.
Yeah, but it's never called me into a church.
That's the point.
No.
It's called me into your lounge room to talk about something as
vague and mysterious as the Dao.
Well, I say it's quite a clear thing.
It just doesn't give you obvious answers.
It makes you work 'em out.
Yeah, yeah.
Or it makes you stop looking for them when it's time to stop looking for
them, et cetera, et cetera, you know?
Which may be such a time now, and I don't claim to be the final or even the first
authority on it, but I do know that every time I read it, it just sort of go, Hmm.
Yeah.
You know, and it's like it throws you back on something.
Yeah.
I loved reading that verse.
I look forward to doing another one.
We'll do a normy one next time, but We'll then we'll come
back at different times too.
Yeah.
We'll do a normy one, as in not a Dow verse, and of course
there's dow verses that are more.
Less mysterious and sort of empty than this one.
This one has a kind of emptiness friend of the show.
Liv wants us to do re relatable content, Sam, where we talk about our lives and
our dating and our, you know what, two people piffling on about ancient texts.
What?
That's not relatable.
Maybe she lacks curiosity.
Oh, well it might be directed in other, you know what?
I think she would say, well, I'm more curious about the people.
Yes.
And the, the, the experience of the person Yes.
Rather than the abstract.
Yeah.
But you know, I don't, but that's the point when you talk about the Dao,
you end up sharing personal stories.
Well, we did today anyway.
Well, that's what I find.
It always makes people think of something that's true and important to them.
And I think that might just be kind of Yeah.
Well, one of the big purposes of it.
Yeah.
I'll finish with this, Sam.
Yeah, though will be done.
They will be done.
Ah.
Amen.
See you mate.