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Toby: Hi, this is Toby Kreins and Kurt
Nan in the yet to be named podcast here.

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it's four agencies by agencies, and we're
gonna talk through some of the experiences

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and stories that we've, gone through.

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Kurt, how long have you been at it?

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Kurt: I got my WordPress username in 2004.

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Toby: That's awesome.

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so

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Kurt: yeah, then, and looking
at your background, it seems

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fairly similar, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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We, we both come from that same era.

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And, I was in the automotive business,
built websites as a hobbyist.

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When you work in automotive,
you work 13, 14 hour days.

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Your head is still wired
when you get off of a shift.

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And I kind of used this internet thing as
like a distraction, like maybe to go to

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sleep at night or something like a hobby.

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And, I started playing with HTML stuff
and Macromedia, before it was Adobe.

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Oh yeah.

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And was playing with all that stuff.

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2000, 2000, you know, three, four.

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Then I found WordPress.

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And by 2007 I was making
websites for other people.

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By 2008, ano Nomas was born.

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And, I went, I went to work corporately
for a while as, as a learning and,

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and learning and management developer.

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But yeah, I'm right back at it,
back at the agency game since 2020.

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That's awesome, man.

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Did you do flash back in the day?

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Oh dude, flash was the
bomb gig Getty, man.

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I know, man.

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The website would open up and things
would move around and music would play

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and, and you know, people that worked
in a cubicle used to hate flash websites

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'cause you'd play 'em automatically.

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And I thought it was the coolest
thing ever, but, apparent.

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Apparently, apparently people that run the
internet thought that that had to go away.

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Toby: Yeah, yeah.

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I know, man.

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I used to run the Flash user
group and it was the greatest

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software ever invented and.

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And here we are, WordPress,

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Kurt: and here we're the second

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Toby: greatest software
ever invented using

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Kurt: the greatest software ever

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Toby: invented.

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so we're gonna talk in this podcast
about our stories with agencies.

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you've been at Manana doing
manana, Noma for a long, long time.

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I've been doing Mighty Mo for a long time.

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I'm just gonna throw out a
question here to kick things

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off and we'll see where it goes.

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this is like about, client
retention, but not in the usual way.

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'cause I've been wondering like.

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how do you keep clients engaged
for the next project, even when

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you're not doing much for 'em?

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Or even maybe you're doing maintenance,
but maintenance is so like, you

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know, here's a PDF autogenerated.

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Maybe, maybe I did a little work,
and, you know, so how do you line up

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that next contract with the client?

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Kurt: You're gonna hate me
because I'm gonna take it in a

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completely opposite direction.

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Go for it when, and so this was something
I started doing as M Nomas as a startup,

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working outta Albuquerque, New Mexico in
the Economic Development Center's offices.

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I had a ton of unengaged
unplugged in clients.

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I just had just 'cause every
time a new business started in

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Albuquerque, they would send
'em to me to get a website made.

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And these businesses either
made it or they didn't.

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And so I ended up with like all this half
done or recently done, but never executed.

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You know, project work,
and I made up my mind.

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I said, you know what I'm gonna do?

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I'm gonna make a list of all my clients.

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I'm gonna take the bottom
third for revenue and activity.

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And I'm just gonna fire them.

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And I literally just sent out really
nice emails that said, Hey, Manano,

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NOMAS is in an expansion mode.

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We're bringing on new clients.

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unfortunately won't be able to
service your accounting no longer.

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Here's a list of five people
locally that we would recommend

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that you could go to, to maybe get
your work performed or maintained.

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And people said, I was crazy.

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People said I was stupid.

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Pe my wife had a heart
attack with that idea.

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She was like, oh my God, you're
gonna, th you know, a third of the

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business, you're just gonna throw away.

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That year my business doubled,
like the revenue doubled and the

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margins went through the roof.

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I mean, my margins
weren't great back then.

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But at the time I thought, oh my God,
I can't believe I'm making this kind

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of money, doing this kind of work.

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And so I did it every year.

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Every year I fired 30% of my
clients and every year I experienced

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some kind of growth 'cause I
brought on better quality clients.

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Toby: Mm-hmm.

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Now, your wife was said 30%, but it, it
sounds like it was 30% of clients very

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different from 30% of the business, like

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And I, I'd say as, as
we continued to grow.

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The scope of our projects
obviously continued to grow, right?

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So now we do a lot of membership,
e-commerce, e-learning centered websites.

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And so now we have people that are
kind of in it for the long haul.

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but what that means is that the clients
that came with us for like a brochure

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website, you know, we might do the hosting
and the maintenance for them, you know,

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for their $79 a month or whatever that is.

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And then if we don't do
any other work for them.

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Then that's kind of it
outta sight, outta mind.

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We just, you know, we have our team manage
the, the hosting account and that's it.

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do I still fire clients like that?

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Not as aggressively as I used to.

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Mm-hmm.

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But it got me where I'm at.

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Toby: Yeah.

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How many people are in your team?

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Kurt: We use people all over the globe.

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And so, I like to say we're
about 10 people strong.

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you know, and then of course you
read about, you know, web dev studios

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and 10 Up and, and these really
big agencies, and you're, you're

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like, oh, wouldn't that be awesome?

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And then there's another part of
me that says I'm 57 years old,

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I don't want those headaches.

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Toby: Right, right.

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Kurt: Yeah.

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The part that I struggle with.

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See, I'm gonna go off on another tangent.

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Toby, this isn't good.

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You shouldn't be asking me questions
that I can just, you know, my a,

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DD kicks in, but I want to use.

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I wanna use freelancers in the states.

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I want to use people where
English is their first language.

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I want to use people that I know I could
add value to as a fellow American, right?

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Like, like, like I want
to be that patriot.

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but I can't tell you how many times
I've gone to post status or I've gone

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within my own circles and I've said,
Hey, I've got this, small project.

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I need some customization done for
this WooCommerce store, or I need, this

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custom page laid out with custom CSS and.

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It's stuff that, could I figure it out?

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I probably could, but it'd be smarter
for me to have someone else do it.

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And I get these things back, like,
oh, well one page custom CSS,

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you're, you're looking about $3,200.

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And I, and I go, and then I got a guy
in Vietnam that's like, sure thing, Mr.

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Ana, and have that done for you.

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Tomorrow it'll be $80.

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Toby: Right.

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Kurt: And it's like, oh, please
help me make this make sense.

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Toby: Yeah.

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Kurt: You know, and that's like,
in some cases I'm not even charging

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$3,200 for the whole project, right.

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Let alone that one page.

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Toby: Yeah.

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I

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Kurt: actually think like,

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Toby: you know, with all the tariff talk
recently, like if I were president, I

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would tariff overseas labor immediately.

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That would be my first tariff order.

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'cause like, 'cause you that would
immediately bring all the work back.

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Like right now, like so
much work's going abroad.

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You know, and, I would like you,
like I would love to hire locally.

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I would like to hire everybody in
Minneapolis, and I know some people,

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even affordable people, but they're
nowhere near as affordable as.

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Other countries

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Kurt: and, and I do crazy things.

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I, I'm sure in a, in a business only,
you know, spreadsheets discussion.

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There, there's organizations called 20
clubs in the automotive and motorcycle

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space where, you know, groups of I.

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Business owners get together and beat
each other up about their spreadsheets and

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their margins and their numbers and stuff.

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And so if we did the same thing
in the WordPress world, could you

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imagine getting together with 10
other agency owners and being like,

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how many websites did you make?

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How many clients is that spread over?

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how many pages was each website?

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And you really drove down through
like key performance indicators of

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each project and then said, what did,
what was, so what's your labor rate?

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Right?

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So what, what's your,
what is your agency rate?

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And then there's a really cool term in
the service world for automotive and power

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sports called the effective labor rate.

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Effective labor rate is how much money
did you really collect per hour, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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So you, maybe you bill the job out at
$10,000 and you thought it was gonna

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take 200 hours to do it, but it really
ended taking 600 hours to do it.

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Well, you take the 10 grand divide by
600, that's your effective labor rate.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so if we really had like 20 club
organizations of WordPress agencies and

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really drove our, our KPIs in that way, I
think it would be really, really shocking

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to see what people are working for.

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Toby: Yeah, that's true.

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I also think like the, the other
side of the market is without

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any like, governmental controls.

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Like if we, if ev, if all of us
had, full-time or just US workers,

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our prices would have to go up.

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And so our, would our customers
even wanna hire us anymore if

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we were like priced up there?

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Whatever there is, you know,

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Kurt: well, but see, that's, that's
that whole other conversation, right?

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And that's why is it that.

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President Obama came out with the
Affordable Care Act, and then they

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hired his wife's college roommate
to make the website for that

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project and paid her $93 million.

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Like in what planet is a medical
directory website worth $93 million?

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na: Yeah.

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Kurt: You know, I can't tell you
how many times I've stumbled into

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a, a package or a deal, or a, a
contract, and it's been a referral.

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And it just comes to me like,
oh yeah, this is, we've already

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pre-bid this at $52,000.

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And I'm thinking to myself,
oh, crud, you know, I probably

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would've bid that at 26 grand.

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now in the end for some reason it
always ends up working out that that

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was probably the right dollar amount.

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but I've got other projects I've done for
8,000, 5,000, 4,000 and you know what,

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somehow Toby, it always seems to work out.

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Toby: Yeah.

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Well I think that's like, like, That's
how, how you last 18 years in the

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business or you know, in your, you know,
like you've been around what, 15 years?

00:09:45.361 --> 00:09:45.871
Something like that.

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eight 18.

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I dunno, but whatever.

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it's like, like yeah, you
have to figure it out.

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You know, like as we talk about like
content for people who are listening

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who might be agency owners or
freelancers looking to like, scale up.

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That's the game.

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Like did you make it or did
you not make it to next year?

00:10:03.561 --> 00:10:04.401
Kurt: I always.

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It sounds so trite.

00:10:06.531 --> 00:10:08.031
May, maybe it's the believer in me.

00:10:08.061 --> 00:10:12.381
Maybe it's too much time at church,
but I have successfully navigated

00:10:12.411 --> 00:10:15.231
every obstacle and temptation
that's come my way in life so far.

00:10:15.981 --> 00:10:16.371
You know?

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And then that's just the
way it is with business too.

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It, it's, there's so many times where I'm
like, ah, man, I should just go get a job.

00:10:23.121 --> 00:10:26.841
And then I gotta tell you over like
the last three years, Toby, I have

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become emotionally unemployable.

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Yeah, there's, I live in Hutchinson,
Kansas, and there is a job in Hutchinson,

00:10:32.766 --> 00:10:36.606
Kansas right now that multiple people
have tagged me on Facebook for,

00:10:36.606 --> 00:10:37.716
like, you need to apply for this.

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You would be amazing at this job.

00:10:39.006 --> 00:10:42.276
You would, this city would be
crazy to not hire you for this job.

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And then I think about it, I go, I
should probably, I should probably,

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I should probably apply for that job.

00:10:47.466 --> 00:10:48.606
And then I think about it and I go.

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Answer to a board of directors,

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na: right?

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Kurt: Yep.

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Hours in the office, events after
hours away from family, right?

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Travel to other cities for
events, representing something

00:11:00.596 --> 00:11:01.886
that's not my own, right?

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And, and then I'm just
like, man, forget it.

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Like I'm not signing up for that.

00:11:06.866 --> 00:11:08.846
I'll volunteer and I'll help that.

00:11:08.846 --> 00:11:13.166
Whoever takes that job, whoever gets
that job, I will volunteer and I will

00:11:13.166 --> 00:11:14.936
help them with projects and events.

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But I'm not gonna take that job.

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Toby: It's a weird thing.

00:11:19.256 --> 00:11:21.211
there's, I, I was collaborating.

00:11:21.211 --> 00:11:26.591
I was brought on with a, a startup and,
so I've, I've owned my small business

00:11:26.741 --> 00:11:28.721
forever, you know, like for 18 years now.

00:11:28.721 --> 00:11:34.241
But let's say year 13, they came
in and they needed CTO basically.

00:11:34.661 --> 00:11:36.311
and they ended up having like.

00:11:36.791 --> 00:11:37.931
Legitimate hockey.

00:11:38.501 --> 00:11:41.501
It was just like this weird scenario,
hockey stick growth where like,

00:11:41.601 --> 00:11:45.201
they ended up selling for 200
something million like a year after

00:11:45.201 --> 00:11:46.431
I left the company or something.

00:11:47.091 --> 00:11:50.901
but what I learned, like the reason I
left is 'cause I was no longer a fit.

00:11:51.231 --> 00:11:56.331
Like I was fine when it was me, three
owners, one or two other teammates.

00:11:56.421 --> 00:12:00.471
But as soon as we started
growing, I just got so tired and

00:12:00.471 --> 00:12:02.541
anxious, like probably tired.

00:12:02.571 --> 00:12:03.741
'cause of the anxiety of like.

00:12:05.076 --> 00:12:08.266
This, infrastructure that
we, that I helped build.

00:12:08.926 --> 00:12:12.586
Like, but just like, like, ah,
I don't even like this work.

00:12:12.586 --> 00:12:12.646
Yeah.

00:12:12.646 --> 00:12:12.946
You know?

00:12:13.066 --> 00:12:13.276
Wow.

00:12:13.276 --> 00:12:14.866
I was really good at
building something I hate.

00:12:15.286 --> 00:12:15.586
Right.

00:12:16.606 --> 00:12:19.296
And it's funny when, when, I ended
up getting fired from that job.

00:12:19.326 --> 00:12:24.416
'cause I, I was kind of like, a
cantankerous little jerk at one point.

00:12:24.416 --> 00:12:28.116
And, I was on the, the phone on a
Google meet with the, the owner and

00:12:28.116 --> 00:12:31.476
the another owner, the, the main owner
and the, you know, secondary owner and.

00:12:31.896 --> 00:12:33.456
And they're like, well, how
do you wanna handle this?

00:12:33.456 --> 00:12:37.026
And I was like, I told 'em like,
just do me the dignity of firing

00:12:37.026 --> 00:12:38.736
me using the process that I built.

00:12:40.806 --> 00:12:42.846
It's like, okay, at
least fire me with my own

00:12:42.846 --> 00:12:43.296
Kurt: tools.

00:12:43.326 --> 00:12:43.716
Right?

00:12:44.526 --> 00:12:45.036
So they did.

00:12:45.036 --> 00:12:45.576
It was great.

00:12:46.746 --> 00:12:51.216
C corporately speaking, one
of, so I love power sports.

00:12:51.216 --> 00:12:53.076
I, I've been in the
motorcycle industry forever.

00:12:53.076 --> 00:12:54.816
I raced motorcycles for 20 years.

00:12:54.816 --> 00:12:59.516
I just love bikes and I ended up getting
the job of a lifetime and I got hired

00:12:59.516 --> 00:13:04.256
away from my agency in Albuquerque by
Ducati North America, and they put me in

00:13:04.256 --> 00:13:05.846
charge of their whole training program.

00:13:05.846 --> 00:13:08.786
And, and before I knew it, I was
traveling the world and doing things

00:13:08.786 --> 00:13:10.436
that I never thought I'd get to do.

00:13:10.496 --> 00:13:12.116
Like it was just an amazing opportunity.

00:13:12.566 --> 00:13:16.616
But what people don't recognize
is even though almost everybody

00:13:16.946 --> 00:13:18.716
recognizes the name Ducati.

00:13:19.301 --> 00:13:21.341
That office was run with like 30 people.

00:13:21.641 --> 00:13:21.821
na: Mm-hmm.

00:13:22.061 --> 00:13:25.241
Kurt: And so I was in charge of
the entire training division.

00:13:25.241 --> 00:13:25.361
Yeah.

00:13:25.361 --> 00:13:28.211
Someone else was in charge of the
entire customer service division.

00:13:28.211 --> 00:13:30.731
Someone else was in charge
of, you know, accessories.

00:13:31.061 --> 00:13:35.241
And, it was a really cool place,
to work because the director

00:13:35.241 --> 00:13:37.191
level management was kind of like.

00:13:37.526 --> 00:13:38.606
Well, it's your division.

00:13:38.636 --> 00:13:39.896
You have a corporate credit card.

00:13:39.896 --> 00:13:42.536
If you need to go buy something
to keep your division running,

00:13:42.836 --> 00:13:43.706
you know, you go do that.

00:13:43.706 --> 00:13:45.896
Like there was, there was certain
things that you could just do.

00:13:46.436 --> 00:13:48.866
I left that job and I went to Suzuki.

00:13:48.871 --> 00:13:49.221
Uhhuh.

00:13:49.441 --> 00:13:52.916
Suzuki is, you know, when I started
there, I think they had like a

00:13:52.916 --> 00:13:54.626
couple hundred people in the office.

00:13:54.716 --> 00:13:58.796
Uhhuh, you know, they had an accounting
division, they had a marketing cluster.

00:13:58.796 --> 00:14:02.276
They had my, I was in charge of
training and I had five people

00:14:02.276 --> 00:14:03.356
that worked underneath me.

00:14:04.356 --> 00:14:09.246
Toby, I'm gonna tell you the amount
of meetings that they scheduled,

00:14:09.366 --> 00:14:13.686
and I watched my vice president
just walk back and forth through

00:14:13.686 --> 00:14:15.066
the cubicles to a meeting room.

00:14:15.126 --> 00:14:18.306
Then he'd come back out, then he'd go
back in, then he'd come back out and I

00:14:18.306 --> 00:14:23.886
asked him one day we went to lunch and I
said, Steve, at what point do you actually

00:14:23.886 --> 00:14:28.416
get to take action or do any of the
work that you discuss in these meetings?

00:14:29.211 --> 00:14:32.031
Like, I never see you get to do it
Uhhuh, how do you stay awake all day?

00:14:32.631 --> 00:14:32.961
You know?

00:14:33.291 --> 00:14:39.071
But it, it was what you described was it
became so ineffectual, it became, just

00:14:39.071 --> 00:14:43.931
this giant boat anchor of process rather
than anything that you kind of enjoyed.

00:14:44.291 --> 00:14:44.621
Toby: Yeah.

00:14:44.891 --> 00:14:46.211
I think of like dream jobs.

00:14:46.211 --> 00:14:49.151
'cause you mentioned that,
that's an interesting thing.

00:14:49.871 --> 00:14:52.331
I have two jobs that
stand out as dream jobs.

00:14:52.331 --> 00:14:55.071
One was, sports writer
for the Northwest Herald.

00:14:56.046 --> 00:14:56.766
loved it.

00:14:57.006 --> 00:15:00.216
Did it for six months and then I moved
and that was the end of my career.

00:15:01.456 --> 00:15:04.036
the other one was front desk
manager at the University of

00:15:04.036 --> 00:15:05.746
Minnesota's, full-time MBA program.

00:15:05.926 --> 00:15:07.216
Did that for a couple years.

00:15:07.306 --> 00:15:07.906
Loved it.

00:15:07.906 --> 00:15:10.966
I was the lowest level
employee, but it was one of the

00:15:10.966 --> 00:15:13.131
greatest times of my life and

00:15:14.446 --> 00:15:18.076
Kurt: my dream job, the
job I enjoyed the most.

00:15:18.526 --> 00:15:23.476
And people will say I'm crazy, was when
I was young, I worked the outbound at

00:15:23.476 --> 00:15:25.786
one of the UPS hubs, loading trucks.

00:15:25.966 --> 00:15:26.116
na: Mm-hmm.

00:15:26.536 --> 00:15:30.316
Kurt: And it was real life Tetris
to me, and I really got good at it.

00:15:30.811 --> 00:15:34.891
I held the load record in, in the Willow
Grove hub for years, as far as I know.

00:15:34.921 --> 00:15:35.971
Toby: Congratulations.

00:15:36.091 --> 00:15:36.901
Kurt: Yeah, it was amazing.

00:15:36.901 --> 00:15:40.201
I just, I was like, and, and the, you
know, they always try and tricky and throw

00:15:40.201 --> 00:15:43.681
like a box in that has the wrong zip code
on it, you know, ring it back off the back

00:15:43.681 --> 00:15:46.441
door, you know, and they're like, P we
can never get 'em, you know, it's like.

00:15:46.496 --> 00:15:48.086
It's like, ah, I'm good at this job.

00:15:48.446 --> 00:15:51.536
And it's like when you're really good
at something and it's physical and it's

00:15:51.536 --> 00:15:53.876
almost like a mental break to do it.

00:15:53.966 --> 00:15:55.796
It was like, it was just
like this awesome job.

00:15:55.796 --> 00:15:57.056
And I trained other people.

00:15:57.416 --> 00:15:58.796
I volunteered on the training staff.

00:15:58.796 --> 00:16:00.866
That's probably my first
experience with corporate training.

00:16:01.436 --> 00:16:01.556
na: Mm-hmm.

00:16:02.006 --> 00:16:03.116
Kurt: I just love that job.

00:16:03.356 --> 00:16:03.746
na: Yeah.

00:16:03.746 --> 00:16:05.666
Kurt: And now I'm old, right?

00:16:05.666 --> 00:16:05.667
Mm-hmm.

00:16:05.801 --> 00:16:07.341
I'm 57 and I look at.

00:16:07.666 --> 00:16:10.546
Younger people and I'll say
things like, oh, you should get

00:16:10.546 --> 00:16:11.926
a job loading trucks at UPS.

00:16:11.956 --> 00:16:12.016
Yeah.

00:16:12.016 --> 00:16:13.696
And they look at me
like, I've got six heads.

00:16:14.686 --> 00:16:14.836
Yeah.

00:16:15.106 --> 00:16:16.966
There's, who would do that?

00:16:17.176 --> 00:16:20.206
Toby: A real misunderstanding,
like, I don't think I would've

00:16:20.206 --> 00:16:23.506
called it my dream job when I was,
maybe I would have, I don't know.

00:16:23.536 --> 00:16:26.816
But, it's funny how many people our
age, and I think part of it is like,

00:16:27.206 --> 00:16:30.986
like we look back and at these simpler
times as like the better jobs in a way.

00:16:31.476 --> 00:16:32.586
but part of it I was thinking.

00:16:33.381 --> 00:16:38.811
Back when I was doing those jobs, I
had no external forces on my time.

00:16:38.811 --> 00:16:38.871
Yeah.

00:16:38.961 --> 00:16:41.601
Like it was just like, how
am I gonna use my time today?

00:16:42.591 --> 00:16:48.411
And I devoted all my energies to like
running the full-time MBA front desk.

00:16:48.411 --> 00:16:52.521
I went to all the events and knew
everybody and I stayed late and

00:16:52.521 --> 00:16:54.261
showed up early, did weekends.

00:16:54.261 --> 00:16:58.821
And as you get older, like people are
like, what's your work life balance?

00:16:58.821 --> 00:16:59.601
But I think like.

00:17:00.006 --> 00:17:03.816
What that question fails to capture
is you don't need a work life balance

00:17:03.816 --> 00:17:06.996
when you're, when you have no external
pressures and you're young and you're

00:17:07.176 --> 00:17:09.396
physically fit, and you know like, yeah,

00:17:10.056 --> 00:17:10.176
Kurt: yeah.

00:17:10.176 --> 00:17:11.106
Just go, go, go.

00:17:12.306 --> 00:17:18.246
I'm curious, what was your first
venture into like, entrepreneurism?

00:17:18.306 --> 00:17:23.016
What was your, the very first inkling,
not your first job or your first

00:17:23.016 --> 00:17:26.616
company, but what was the first time
that you thought I could leverage the

00:17:26.616 --> 00:17:28.476
efforts of others for my personal gain?

00:17:29.406 --> 00:17:29.826
Toby: Okay.

00:17:30.036 --> 00:17:33.336
so I was not, I was afraid
to be entrepreneurial.

00:17:33.896 --> 00:17:36.716
but my dad delivered little
Debbie's, that was his job.

00:17:37.116 --> 00:17:39.486
he had a little Debbie truck, and
the way little Debbie works is

00:17:39.486 --> 00:17:42.846
you buy a route and little Debbie
does not make a lot of money.

00:17:42.846 --> 00:17:45.636
I think his salary the one,
he was like $25,000, you know?

00:17:45.636 --> 00:17:47.376
So like, and we had a
family of nine, you know.

00:17:48.141 --> 00:17:51.551
So like, but he had the
truck and with little Debbie.

00:17:51.551 --> 00:17:55.691
Now this is different for hostess
and bread companies and a lot of

00:17:55.691 --> 00:17:59.081
other companies where the company
will buy back your stale product.

00:17:59.111 --> 00:18:01.151
Their, their idea is like,
push more product, push more.

00:18:01.361 --> 00:18:02.801
With little Debbie, you're responsible.

00:18:02.801 --> 00:18:05.891
You buy what you think you can
sell and then you keep the rest.

00:18:06.261 --> 00:18:08.211
so we had a garage full
of little Debbie's.

00:18:08.931 --> 00:18:12.802
I used to bring them to school in
high school and sell them like for.

00:18:13.566 --> 00:18:16.116
I don't know, a quarter
a box or 50 cents a box.

00:18:16.116 --> 00:18:17.136
And my dad's like, whatever.

00:18:17.136 --> 00:18:18.996
They're just gonna get eaten
by raccoons in our garage.

00:18:20.106 --> 00:18:22.056
So like, so I'd say that was it.

00:18:22.086 --> 00:18:25.356
Selling little Debbie's for a
quarter, a pop or a box or whatever.

00:18:25.536 --> 00:18:28.116
I remember, there's one guy who loved
honey buns and every now and then I would

00:18:28.116 --> 00:18:32.166
get like a box of the gas station honey
buns, which are larger than like you'd

00:18:32.166 --> 00:18:34.236
get in the regular box of 10 or whatever.

00:18:35.191 --> 00:18:37.206
So how about you?

00:18:37.236 --> 00:18:38.561
What was your, like those big honey buns?

00:18:38.631 --> 00:18:38.921
Kurt: Yeah.

00:18:39.926 --> 00:18:44.756
Mine was, I lived in Philadelphia, in
the suburbs, and I had a paper route,

00:18:45.356 --> 00:18:49.676
and it was the seventh grade and it was
the old school bicycle canvas, sack,

00:18:50.186 --> 00:18:52.166
bicycle, you know, newspaper route.

00:18:52.646 --> 00:18:55.496
And one day a kid didn't
show up to do his route.

00:18:55.556 --> 00:18:59.387
And the It's gonna sound mean,
but, but the adult in charge of the

00:18:59.387 --> 00:19:02.397
newspaper center, he was not all there.

00:19:02.486 --> 00:19:04.677
He, he was a special
needs person for sure.

00:19:04.827 --> 00:19:04.857
na: Mm.

00:19:05.216 --> 00:19:08.037
Kurt: And he was like, you know, hey,
the kid didn't show up to do his route.

00:19:08.037 --> 00:19:10.047
And I said, just gimme the
route and I'll take it.

00:19:10.167 --> 00:19:11.817
And he was like, oh, but
you already have a route.

00:19:11.877 --> 00:19:12.897
I said, don't worry about it.

00:19:13.077 --> 00:19:13.947
Just gimme the route.

00:19:14.037 --> 00:19:14.757
I'll take care of it.

00:19:15.387 --> 00:19:17.327
And so, I delivered all
those papers, right?

00:19:17.447 --> 00:19:19.067
And so the next day, same thing.

00:19:19.067 --> 00:19:19.577
Same thing.

00:19:19.577 --> 00:19:21.317
So a week goes by, I got two routes.

00:19:22.067 --> 00:19:23.057
Another kid quits.

00:19:23.237 --> 00:19:26.777
I pick up a third route, I pick up a
fourth route, I pick up a fifth route.

00:19:27.167 --> 00:19:31.247
This poor dude is like, I have no idea
how the seventh graders delivering,

00:19:31.337 --> 00:19:34.216
delivering these papers, but they're
all getting delivered, you know?

00:19:34.307 --> 00:19:34.427
Mm-hmm.

00:19:35.267 --> 00:19:38.766
And so, what he didn't realize was
I had hired a bunch of fifth and

00:19:38.766 --> 00:19:44.257
sixth graders to go and deliver the
papers, and all I did was, go around

00:19:44.257 --> 00:19:45.877
and knock on the door and collect.

00:19:46.222 --> 00:19:46.582
Right.

00:19:46.702 --> 00:19:48.472
So gimme the money, gimme
the money, gimme the money.

00:19:48.742 --> 00:19:51.292
And then I would pay the kids out, right?

00:19:51.292 --> 00:19:51.412
Mm-hmm.

00:19:51.712 --> 00:19:53.812
And then I'd go buy myself
a couple Mountain Dews at

00:19:53.812 --> 00:19:55.192
the beverage store, Uhhuh.

00:19:55.192 --> 00:19:58.882
And then I just gave what, whatever
was left to this dude, the newspaper

00:19:58.882 --> 00:20:00.322
general manager, guy Uhhuh.

00:20:00.322 --> 00:20:02.382
And a couple of times
I was short, you know?

00:20:02.382 --> 00:20:03.282
And he said, Hey, you're short.

00:20:03.282 --> 00:20:05.022
And I said, well, that's.

00:20:05.382 --> 00:20:06.642
What happens when you hire kids?

00:20:07.992 --> 00:20:09.072
What'd you expect?

00:20:09.762 --> 00:20:11.202
Go find some more kids.

00:20:11.502 --> 00:20:12.072
What'd you expect?

00:20:12.222 --> 00:20:14.112
You know, all I know is I
got my Mountain Dew, bro.

00:20:14.622 --> 00:20:17.402
And it was such a, such
a surreal experience.

00:20:17.762 --> 00:20:20.282
'cause when you find, 'cause he goes,
how are you delivering all these papers?

00:20:20.282 --> 00:20:22.562
And I was like, I got all these
kids delivering papers for me.

00:20:22.861 --> 00:20:24.512
He was like, you can't do that.

00:20:25.081 --> 00:20:25.861
But then I was like.

00:20:26.152 --> 00:20:26.482
you know what?

00:20:26.482 --> 00:20:27.982
I think I was meant to be a businessman.

00:20:28.132 --> 00:20:28.552
na: Yeah.

00:20:30.052 --> 00:20:30.202
Toby: Yeah.

00:20:30.202 --> 00:20:32.682
That was what I, I had when I got
fired from that job that I told

00:20:32.682 --> 00:20:36.222
you about, they go, I think you're
just a, a business owner, Toby.

00:20:36.912 --> 00:20:36.913
Yeah.

00:20:36.913 --> 00:20:37.722
I was like, yeah, that seems about right.

00:20:38.982 --> 00:20:39.282
Yeah.

00:20:39.287 --> 00:20:41.832
You're, you're too independent and
free thinking for the rest of us.

00:20:41.862 --> 00:20:42.822
Right, right.

00:20:43.762 --> 00:20:49.342
so, if we can just turn that last thought
around, like the idea of like, Some

00:20:49.342 --> 00:20:50.782
employees are gonna be better than others.

00:20:50.782 --> 00:20:52.162
Now this person was
like, he's doing the job.

00:20:52.162 --> 00:20:53.632
I'm gonna ask no questions.

00:20:54.482 --> 00:20:58.802
how do you like, tell me about an
experience where you had an employee,

00:20:58.802 --> 00:21:02.432
maybe it was a part-time contractor,
maybe it was a job and you realized they

00:21:02.432 --> 00:21:07.742
weren't do getting it done, and then you
had to like figure out a way to get it

00:21:07.742 --> 00:21:09.932
done and maybe you found another person.

00:21:09.932 --> 00:21:11.192
And you know,

00:21:12.572 --> 00:21:16.682
Kurt: that is always, always difficult.

00:21:17.237 --> 00:21:23.307
So during COID, someone that I
had added to my, my staff, if

00:21:23.307 --> 00:21:26.277
you wanna call it that, you know,
and we're all contractors, right?

00:21:26.277 --> 00:21:27.657
We're all kind of moving and grooving.

00:21:28.017 --> 00:21:32.727
but she had really embraced
this idea of multiple paychecks.

00:21:33.237 --> 00:21:37.827
Like, so she had a full-time gig working
for another company and was remote.

00:21:38.322 --> 00:21:40.122
And then she would say, oh yeah,
I can do that for you, Kurt.

00:21:40.122 --> 00:21:41.022
That's not a problem.

00:21:41.292 --> 00:21:44.502
And then I found out she had another
company she was full-time remote for,

00:21:44.562 --> 00:21:45.912
and then she had a third company.

00:21:45.912 --> 00:21:47.322
She was picking up contracts for.

00:21:47.592 --> 00:21:50.712
Now, kudos to her because she
had figured out how to live in

00:21:50.712 --> 00:21:53.112
California and make $400,000 a year.

00:21:54.252 --> 00:22:00.972
The problem was I was getting really
sub quality work and Ana Nomas

00:22:00.972 --> 00:22:02.622
isn't known for sub quality work.

00:22:03.022 --> 00:22:05.512
my whole agency is built on the idea of.

00:22:05.922 --> 00:22:10.152
on budget and ahead of deadline,
but you still have to meet

00:22:10.152 --> 00:22:11.892
a quality standpoint, right?

00:22:11.892 --> 00:22:12.402
na: Mm-hmm.

00:22:12.408 --> 00:22:13.662
Kurt: So, you know,
that's that always thing.

00:22:13.662 --> 00:22:14.502
Do you want it good?

00:22:14.502 --> 00:22:16.152
Do you want it fast or
do you want it cheap?

00:22:16.152 --> 00:22:16.482
Right?

00:22:16.482 --> 00:22:19.602
But it's at, at no point am I
telling people I'm gonna give you

00:22:19.602 --> 00:22:21.642
crap, but get it done on time.

00:22:21.822 --> 00:22:21.912
Mm-hmm.

00:22:22.212 --> 00:22:25.572
And I was getting some bad stuff and
it just had to be a real conversation.

00:22:25.842 --> 00:22:26.142
Yeah.

00:22:26.202 --> 00:22:26.622
You know?

00:22:26.622 --> 00:22:27.132
And that's.

00:22:27.912 --> 00:22:31.802
I have, a John Maxwell certification
in leadership and speaking, and I've

00:22:31.802 --> 00:22:36.302
read his whole stinking library and
as well as a couple of other authors.

00:22:36.362 --> 00:22:41.852
And I think if you're gonna be
in business, you have to come up

00:22:41.852 --> 00:22:46.472
with some word salads, even if it
comes from other authors on how to

00:22:46.472 --> 00:22:48.152
approach these difficult topics.

00:22:48.947 --> 00:22:51.647
You know, and I found that
being direct is the best way.

00:22:51.857 --> 00:22:55.127
You know, like, Hey, I was looking, hey,
I was looking at what you sent over.

00:22:55.407 --> 00:22:57.507
just, just a couple of things.

00:22:57.507 --> 00:22:59.637
I mean, it's not, it's not
meeting our quality standard.

00:22:59.637 --> 00:23:03.657
So I don't know if you didn't spend
enough time on it or if you have other

00:23:03.657 --> 00:23:05.757
contracts that you are distracted by.

00:23:06.177 --> 00:23:08.797
But, if you're not able to
meet our quality standard,

00:23:08.797 --> 00:23:09.757
I'm gonna have to move on.

00:23:09.757 --> 00:23:10.567
na: Mm-hmm.

00:23:11.257 --> 00:23:11.822
Kurt: And that was it.

00:23:12.487 --> 00:23:13.597
And she's a great lady.

00:23:13.807 --> 00:23:14.437
I really like her.

00:23:14.437 --> 00:23:15.397
She's a fun person.

00:23:15.397 --> 00:23:18.517
I just, you know, I couldn't keep
up with her thirst for earning.

00:23:19.072 --> 00:23:22.222
Toby: like, it's weird because I
had a, an employee that was doing

00:23:22.222 --> 00:23:23.572
that too, something like that.

00:23:24.052 --> 00:23:26.182
I'm pretty sure I was
a second or third job.

00:23:26.182 --> 00:23:30.592
And it's a strategy, it's a, it's a
whole strategy where like, you, like

00:23:30.592 --> 00:23:32.872
basically say, I'm gonna deliver crap.

00:23:33.382 --> 00:23:35.782
And I'll get fired when I
get fired as it happens.

00:23:35.782 --> 00:23:38.362
I knew a guy when I was 19.

00:23:38.362 --> 00:23:39.382
He was 17.

00:23:39.382 --> 00:23:40.612
He was like a high school friend.

00:23:41.152 --> 00:23:46.732
and he lied and got a job at
a medical laboratory doing

00:23:46.732 --> 00:23:48.352
something that required a PhD.

00:23:48.802 --> 00:23:50.932
And so he was making huge dollars.

00:23:50.932 --> 00:23:55.842
He's not like, he's just graduated
high school and, I mean, I

00:23:55.842 --> 00:23:59.682
don't know, thousands a week,
whereas like, like I was making.

00:24:00.477 --> 00:24:03.387
$8 an hour at, you know what, whatever.

00:24:03.417 --> 00:24:04.797
And I had a good paying job.

00:24:06.297 --> 00:24:09.837
and, but I remember it took them
weeks before they figured it out.

00:24:09.897 --> 00:24:13.407
And meanwhile he's just like throwing
money around like, look how rich I am.

00:24:13.407 --> 00:24:13.677
You know?

00:24:13.857 --> 00:24:16.587
Or maybe it had to be month, like at
least two weeks 'cause he got at least one

00:24:16.587 --> 00:24:18.297
paycheck and bought like a fancy camera.

00:24:20.217 --> 00:24:21.237
Like, then he got fired.

00:24:21.267 --> 00:24:21.297
Ah.

00:24:23.037 --> 00:24:26.112
I think like it's easy to pull one over
on people 'cause we have to trust 'em.

00:24:26.112 --> 00:24:26.472
You know,

00:24:26.682 --> 00:24:32.082
Kurt: you, well you wanna think that the
good's always gonna win or you want to,

00:24:32.082 --> 00:24:34.572
you know, we wanna believe these stories.

00:24:35.172 --> 00:24:38.062
But the truth of the matter
is, having climbed the

00:24:38.062 --> 00:24:39.472
corporate ladder like I had, I.

00:24:40.102 --> 00:24:44.752
I witnessed a lot of people in
control or in charge of a lot of

00:24:44.752 --> 00:24:48.052
things that they had no business
to be in control or in charge of.

00:24:48.572 --> 00:24:51.182
to the point where, you know, we,
if you're working for a motorcycle

00:24:51.182 --> 00:24:55.052
company or an automotive company
or, or some, and, and you're like,

00:24:55.802 --> 00:24:57.792
you know, hey, as far as I knew.

00:24:58.392 --> 00:25:00.732
That vehicle didn't pass
emissions, but we're still

00:25:00.732 --> 00:25:02.142
selling it in the United States.

00:25:02.442 --> 00:25:02.472
na: Uhhuh,

00:25:03.012 --> 00:25:04.272
Kurt: that's, how does that happen?

00:25:04.542 --> 00:25:04.872
Right?

00:25:04.962 --> 00:25:07.622
Or, hey, what, what,
where did that car go?

00:25:07.622 --> 00:25:10.652
Remember that car that got dropped off
by the manufacturer and we were supposed

00:25:10.652 --> 00:25:12.092
to look at, where did that car go?

00:25:12.122 --> 00:25:12.242
Uhhuh.

00:25:12.782 --> 00:25:13.592
It's just gone.

00:25:13.772 --> 00:25:17.882
You know, it's like, I can't tell you
how many things have just disappeared,

00:25:18.242 --> 00:25:22.022
you know, under someone else's watch,
and, and you're sitting there like, how?

00:25:22.322 --> 00:25:23.882
How does this continue to happen?

00:25:24.152 --> 00:25:25.832
How is this permitted?

00:25:26.272 --> 00:25:30.262
but then we all sit back now in, in our
political landscape and we see Doge at

00:25:30.262 --> 00:25:34.252
work and finding, you know, billions and
trillions of dollars misspent, and it's

00:25:34.252 --> 00:25:38.272
like, well, those are people that got to
the top of the food chain and just made

00:25:38.392 --> 00:25:40.312
super poor decisions and got away with it.

00:25:40.762 --> 00:25:43.722
Toby: My buddy was at a, 3M huge
corporation, one of the world's

00:25:43.932 --> 00:25:46.152
five biggest maybe at a meeting.

00:25:46.152 --> 00:25:47.322
He's telling me he's in marketing.

00:25:47.322 --> 00:25:47.562
He has.

00:25:48.312 --> 00:25:53.322
Eight people on a call and not
a single one was accepting any

00:25:53.322 --> 00:25:56.322
responsibility for the project that
they were all collaborating on.

00:25:57.402 --> 00:26:00.192
He's like, so like, you know, it'd
be like, so who's gonna do this?

00:26:00.252 --> 00:26:01.422
And just silence.

00:26:02.322 --> 00:26:02.772
Next.

00:26:03.192 --> 00:26:04.032
Just move on.

00:26:04.032 --> 00:26:04.812
Next topic.

00:26:04.812 --> 00:26:05.592
Who's gonna do this?

00:26:05.592 --> 00:26:06.132
Nothing.

00:26:06.672 --> 00:26:06.912
na: Yeah.

00:26:07.032 --> 00:26:07.182
Who's

00:26:07.182 --> 00:26:07.692
Toby: in charge?

00:26:07.692 --> 00:26:08.112
Kurt: Nobody.

00:26:10.572 --> 00:26:17.172
I think, like, I was gonna bring this
up and, and you kinda led to this, what.

00:26:18.327 --> 00:26:22.977
Was there a moment where you
realized it, the money, that

00:26:22.977 --> 00:26:24.627
the dollar amount didn't matter?

00:26:28.017 --> 00:26:31.377
Like, like, like we, we say it matters,
but did you hit a, like, were you

00:26:31.377 --> 00:26:35.577
ever on a call or something where you
were like, holy crud, that's a lot of

00:26:35.577 --> 00:26:39.357
money, and then you're like, all of
a sudden you were like, oh, I guess

00:26:39.357 --> 00:26:40.617
money doesn't really have a value.

00:26:40.617 --> 00:26:41.517
It's all perception.

00:26:41.697 --> 00:26:42.297
Toby: Sure.

00:26:42.327 --> 00:26:46.337
I, I did a project once, And the, the
person doing the, the paying, like

00:26:46.577 --> 00:26:50.027
make, you know, not the payer, but it
was an agency in town, a bigger agency

00:26:50.027 --> 00:26:53.687
in town, and they hired me and they
said, Toby, we'll pay you any amount

00:26:53.687 --> 00:26:56.332
you want, like, per hour, you know?

00:26:56.332 --> 00:26:56.612
Yeah.

00:26:56.612 --> 00:26:58.527
And you can work as
many hours as you want.

00:27:00.387 --> 00:27:01.617
I was like, what?

00:27:02.937 --> 00:27:05.547
Like, they're like, it doesn't bother,
because they were just funneling

00:27:05.547 --> 00:27:06.957
it through to the next person.

00:27:06.957 --> 00:27:07.017
Yeah.

00:27:07.017 --> 00:27:08.157
Like they were paying all the bills.

00:27:08.157 --> 00:27:09.807
They were just scraping
some off the top and.

00:27:11.082 --> 00:27:11.862
Kurt: It blew my mind.

00:27:11.892 --> 00:27:12.282
Yeah.

00:27:12.537 --> 00:27:12.657
I

00:27:12.657 --> 00:27:13.097
Toby: mean, yeah.

00:27:13.152 --> 00:27:15.732
Kurt: And, and, and inside you
were all being legit, like, well,

00:27:15.732 --> 00:27:18.162
our agency rate is $123 an hour.

00:27:18.732 --> 00:27:19.092
Totally.

00:27:19.092 --> 00:27:20.382
That should take about 10 hours.

00:27:20.382 --> 00:27:20.622
Toby: Yeah.

00:27:20.832 --> 00:27:21.252
Kurt: yeah.

00:27:21.432 --> 00:27:27.502
No, I was on, I used to have a, a business
doing stuff in power sports and I wanted

00:27:27.502 --> 00:27:33.202
to go to an event, but I needed to be
fronted about $30,000 in merchandise to

00:27:33.202 --> 00:27:34.972
go represent this company at this event.

00:27:35.632 --> 00:27:37.372
And it was the Patronus Oil Company.

00:27:37.972 --> 00:27:38.632
So.

00:27:39.187 --> 00:27:42.517
I asked my people and my people
said, oh, we're gonna be on a

00:27:42.517 --> 00:27:43.747
call with Patronas next week.

00:27:43.747 --> 00:27:45.037
Just jump on the call and ask them.

00:27:45.037 --> 00:27:46.027
I'm sure it'll be fine.

00:27:46.357 --> 00:27:47.887
And I was like, that's weird.

00:27:47.917 --> 00:27:49.567
Like I'm just Kurt.

00:27:49.687 --> 00:27:52.027
I'm just Kurt and I get
invited to this call.

00:27:52.417 --> 00:27:55.387
And my learning experience in
this call changed the entire way

00:27:55.387 --> 00:27:56.737
that I did business from then on.

00:27:57.067 --> 00:28:00.757
Like there's a reason why I wrote a
course on how to sell work in the service

00:28:00.757 --> 00:28:02.377
industry because money doesn't matter.

00:28:02.887 --> 00:28:03.697
I'm on the call.

00:28:04.012 --> 00:28:07.012
Carl Fogarty, who's a world
famous road racer, ran the team.

00:28:07.382 --> 00:28:09.182
he, they said, oh, Carl's got a question.

00:28:09.182 --> 00:28:11.642
And he says, you know, and he's
British, so he is, got an accent.

00:28:11.642 --> 00:28:13.022
I won't ruin the show by doing it.

00:28:13.352 --> 00:28:18.932
And says, Hey, I just need another $50
million for more research and development.

00:28:18.932 --> 00:28:19.352
Right.

00:28:20.347 --> 00:28:22.717
And they went, no problem, Carl.

00:28:22.717 --> 00:28:24.937
Just fill out the form, fax it on over.

00:28:25.147 --> 00:28:26.887
We assume it's gonna be the same account.

00:28:26.887 --> 00:28:27.277
Right?

00:28:27.337 --> 00:28:28.897
And he was like, righto.

00:28:29.167 --> 00:28:30.067
And I was like, boom.

00:28:30.067 --> 00:28:31.747
And they said, okay, well
it's been a great call.

00:28:32.017 --> 00:28:34.987
And then my guy Neil says, oh no, no,
there's one more person on the call.

00:28:34.987 --> 00:28:35.047
I.

00:28:35.912 --> 00:28:37.022
I'm asking for 30 grand.

00:28:37.022 --> 00:28:37.937
I'm scared to death, right?

00:28:38.197 --> 00:28:41.192
I'm scared to death to ask
for $30,000, and someone just

00:28:41.192 --> 00:28:42.752
got $50 million on the call.

00:28:43.232 --> 00:28:45.552
And so I was like, I want
to go to Laguna Seca.

00:28:45.552 --> 00:28:49.062
I wanted to represent the company, but
I'm gonna need about $30,000 in, in

00:28:49.062 --> 00:28:50.892
merchandise to put on display there.

00:28:51.232 --> 00:28:53.062
and they almost laughed at me.

00:28:53.062 --> 00:28:53.632
They were like.

00:28:54.397 --> 00:28:57.367
Dude, just send over, just send
over a tick list of what you need.

00:28:57.367 --> 00:28:58.657
We'll take care of the shipping.

00:28:58.657 --> 00:29:00.217
It'll be there waiting for you.

00:29:00.217 --> 00:29:03.277
Like I, and I was trying to think, well,
how am I gonna get from Albuquerque

00:29:03.277 --> 00:29:04.927
to California and carry all this crud?

00:29:05.167 --> 00:29:05.227
na: Yeah.

00:29:05.557 --> 00:29:07.177
Kurt: And they were like, oh
no, we'll just have our, you

00:29:07.177 --> 00:29:08.167
know, we'll have logistics.

00:29:08.167 --> 00:29:09.187
Drop it for you.

00:29:09.637 --> 00:29:10.087
Everything.

00:29:10.087 --> 00:29:12.367
And of course, we sold
everything out that weekend.

00:29:12.367 --> 00:29:14.737
So there was no debt to carry.

00:29:14.737 --> 00:29:16.147
It was, it was all profit.

00:29:16.747 --> 00:29:18.517
But that phone call.

00:29:19.102 --> 00:29:23.062
Change the way I handled every
financial conversation after that.

00:29:23.302 --> 00:29:26.302
That's because now I just add up the
numbers and the numbers, the number's, the

00:29:26.302 --> 00:29:28.072
number, doesn't matter what the number is.

00:29:28.402 --> 00:29:29.842
Now the customer can say yes or no.

00:29:29.992 --> 00:29:30.382
Toby: Right?

00:29:30.742 --> 00:29:35.472
You know, when I worked at the u the
boss of my department, amazing person,

00:29:35.892 --> 00:29:39.912
I think I asked her once, like, we were
having a conversation about budgets

00:29:40.272 --> 00:29:45.042
and she was saying like, what's to stop
me from spending way over my budget?

00:29:45.462 --> 00:29:46.122
Nothing.

00:29:46.422 --> 00:29:47.172
Like what?

00:29:47.172 --> 00:29:51.702
So like some accountant a year from now
is like, you went over budget, then what?

00:29:51.702 --> 00:29:53.622
Is the university not gonna pay the bill?

00:29:53.652 --> 00:29:55.662
Like, they'll figure it out.

00:29:55.692 --> 00:29:56.682
Like, that was her attitude.

00:29:56.682 --> 00:29:57.462
She was awesome.

00:29:58.452 --> 00:29:59.172
They'll figure it out.

00:29:59.412 --> 00:29:59.622
Yeah.

00:30:00.012 --> 00:30:02.082
Like some, they'll get
money from somewhere.

00:30:03.252 --> 00:30:03.582
Kurt: Yep.

00:30:03.642 --> 00:30:03.882
Yep.

00:30:03.912 --> 00:30:07.632
'cause someone's over budget and they'll,
they'll scrape it from somewhere else.

00:30:08.352 --> 00:30:08.802
Toby: Yeah.

00:30:08.802 --> 00:30:08.862
Yeah.

00:30:09.792 --> 00:30:12.782
And you're right, like, money, And
that's what my, my dad always told

00:30:12.782 --> 00:30:15.422
me, like, never feel bad about
taking someone spending money.

00:30:15.482 --> 00:30:17.282
Like for a legitimate purpose.

00:30:17.282 --> 00:30:17.882
Like Yeah.

00:30:18.032 --> 00:30:19.472
You know, like for little Debbie's.

00:30:19.802 --> 00:30:20.012
Yeah.

00:30:20.012 --> 00:30:22.562
Little Debbie's and I used to like, play
in a band and I was selling my tape.

00:30:22.562 --> 00:30:25.142
I'm like, like, should I
sell it for five bucks or $2?

00:30:25.142 --> 00:30:26.642
He's like, just get the five.

00:30:26.977 --> 00:30:27.267
Yeah.

00:30:27.337 --> 00:30:28.707
Like, you know, like, yeah,

00:30:28.922 --> 00:30:30.212
Kurt: ask for nine, see if you can

00:30:30.392 --> 00:30:30.632
Toby: buy.

00:30:30.632 --> 00:30:30.692
Yeah.

00:30:30.872 --> 00:30:31.802
See what happens.

00:30:33.512 --> 00:30:35.522
Kurt: That, that's good
stuff I can remember.

00:30:35.732 --> 00:30:38.852
And now this is gonna be like, kind
of a crossover from a, a different

00:30:38.852 --> 00:30:40.082
show that happened last week.

00:30:40.622 --> 00:30:41.942
I don't know if you saw it or not.

00:30:42.287 --> 00:30:45.847
But, Kevin Geary and Robert Devore
had a big, I'm not gonna say

00:30:45.847 --> 00:30:48.997
argument, but they had a disagreement
about the value of a website.

00:30:49.597 --> 00:30:54.457
And, I thought that whole conversation
was extremely interesting because I used

00:30:54.457 --> 00:30:59.647
to be the agency in Albuquerque that made
$500 websites and had a list of deadbeat

00:30:59.647 --> 00:31:03.127
clients that couldn't pay their bills
or, you know, couldn't afford hosting

00:31:03.127 --> 00:31:04.777
at the end of the month or, or whatever.

00:31:05.227 --> 00:31:10.087
And now we're the agency that, you
know, bids on enterprise level work.

00:31:10.447 --> 00:31:12.637
And gets paid before we do the work.

00:31:12.727 --> 00:31:16.987
And the number is the number,
and we're not bashful or shy

00:31:16.987 --> 00:31:18.127
about sharing the number.

00:31:18.517 --> 00:31:21.597
And, I, I was very intrigued
by that whole conversation.

00:31:21.897 --> 00:31:24.777
What, what does it look like on, on
your end where you, you know, I've

00:31:24.777 --> 00:31:28.177
Toby: gone up and down over the years,
like in terms of how, or I round the,

00:31:28.177 --> 00:31:30.337
round the ROY with how to do that.

00:31:30.817 --> 00:31:34.027
I've kind of come to the conclusion
like, for me, what I need is.

00:31:35.012 --> 00:31:35.762
the guaranteed money.

00:31:35.882 --> 00:31:39.512
So how I solved that problem was
not to like scale up or level

00:31:39.512 --> 00:31:43.202
up, but to just demand the money
upfront before any work is done.

00:31:43.892 --> 00:31:51.272
And so there are two clients that I
have right now that are always late.

00:31:51.602 --> 00:31:56.102
One of 'em is naturally going away, like
it's just not working out naturally.

00:31:56.102 --> 00:31:57.332
I didn't have to fire them.

00:31:57.362 --> 00:32:00.632
I've like sent them some nice
emails like, and, they're leaving.

00:32:01.402 --> 00:32:02.032
another one.

00:32:02.632 --> 00:32:03.682
I don't know what's gonna happen.

00:32:03.772 --> 00:32:05.122
They're really nice.

00:32:05.692 --> 00:32:06.652
They're late all the time.

00:32:06.652 --> 00:32:11.392
They, I'm like bending over backwards,
like for payment plans, but it's just

00:32:11.392 --> 00:32:17.312
one and like, and like part of it for
me is like, is it, I think they're

00:32:17.312 --> 00:32:21.737
paying 50 bucks a month and it's
like, is it worth this headache for

00:32:21.742 --> 00:32:23.462
50 bucks a month, one time a month?

00:32:23.942 --> 00:32:25.112
Yeah, right now it is.

00:32:25.532 --> 00:32:29.912
I'm not, you know, I can stomach it at
some point it probably becomes untenable.

00:32:29.942 --> 00:32:33.092
Like we had one guy that was with
us for a long time, like years,

00:32:33.172 --> 00:32:35.122
and he was paying $30 a month.

00:32:35.182 --> 00:32:38.692
He always paid on time, but he, what
the deal we made with him years ago was

00:32:38.692 --> 00:32:41.542
like, we, small thing for $30 a month.

00:32:41.992 --> 00:32:45.502
And I like, I tried to get him up
to like, how about one hour a month?

00:32:45.502 --> 00:32:46.072
Because like.

00:32:46.492 --> 00:32:48.232
That just makes more sense to us.

00:32:48.292 --> 00:32:51.952
yeah, and he didn't wanna do that, so it's
like, all right, we can't do it anymore.

00:32:52.702 --> 00:32:54.532
Like it was just too much headache.

00:32:54.562 --> 00:32:57.772
'cause it was like a totally different,
like, 'cause my team would always be

00:32:57.772 --> 00:32:59.482
emailing me, what's one small thing?

00:32:59.482 --> 00:33:00.562
Is this a small thing?

00:33:00.687 --> 00:33:01.522
It's a small thing.

00:33:01.522 --> 00:33:02.482
Be like, I don't know.

00:33:04.652 --> 00:33:06.362
so I will still do the small stuff.

00:33:06.362 --> 00:33:09.882
Like, like, in fact, what I've
been doing recently, I sold two

00:33:09.882 --> 00:33:12.162
of these in the last month and I
didn't do it prior to last month.

00:33:12.162 --> 00:33:12.792
So I don't know.

00:33:13.302 --> 00:33:15.342
I've actually sold over the
years, I've done a ton of these.

00:33:15.342 --> 00:33:19.782
But it's the idea like, what if we
get together, you and I business

00:33:19.812 --> 00:33:23.922
you, you're, you buy or me website
guy, and we build you a website.

00:33:24.132 --> 00:33:25.212
how long will that take?

00:33:25.212 --> 00:33:28.902
And so what I've decided is it's, it's
five sessions, 90 minutes each session.

00:33:29.232 --> 00:33:30.462
I'm calling it a workshop.

00:33:30.882 --> 00:33:33.292
And at the end of these
five, you'll have a website.

00:33:33.292 --> 00:33:35.302
And I've priced it in a way
that makes sense for me.

00:33:35.302 --> 00:33:40.532
And, it's weird because like I
feel like it's, that doesn't.

00:33:42.062 --> 00:33:44.552
It's really like, so I have this
other team working on all these

00:33:44.552 --> 00:33:46.922
other random projects that come in.

00:33:47.342 --> 00:33:49.742
and I haven't quite figured out
how this fits or if it fits.

00:33:49.742 --> 00:33:51.392
Like is it a waste of my time?

00:33:51.392 --> 00:33:57.662
Is it just paying their bill and like
creating this fake money flow that,

00:33:57.962 --> 00:34:00.662
you know, like, could I just make
more money by firing the other people?

00:34:00.662 --> 00:34:02.732
And, you know, I don't think
that's true by the way.

00:34:02.732 --> 00:34:06.812
I, I think, I think the other
people are profitable in their own.

00:34:07.742 --> 00:34:09.722
You know, that business of the company.

00:34:09.722 --> 00:34:12.032
But, at the end of the day though,
I'm looking at it like, I'm like,

00:34:12.302 --> 00:34:14.972
if I could sell a lot of these, this
would be really interesting too.

00:34:15.212 --> 00:34:17.922
A lot of these, like, you know,
if I could do two or three of

00:34:17.922 --> 00:34:19.782
these a day, it'd be awesome.

00:34:20.377 --> 00:34:20.667
Kurt: Yeah.

00:34:20.807 --> 00:34:27.132
So yeah, we went to kind of a
productized, templated offer for startups.

00:34:28.062 --> 00:34:28.452
We are.

00:34:29.052 --> 00:34:33.192
Consciously avoiding the like
five to $15,000 sites right now.

00:34:33.732 --> 00:34:39.762
And then we have a different vertical
that is all like 20 K plus projects.

00:34:39.762 --> 00:34:40.812
But they're e-learning.

00:34:40.812 --> 00:34:42.972
I mean, they're, they're
involved projects, right.

00:34:43.452 --> 00:34:47.802
You know, we just bid on a job that was
like $240,000, but it's, we're gonna

00:34:47.802 --> 00:34:49.392
help create the learning material.

00:34:49.392 --> 00:34:51.612
We're gonna, you know, we're,
we're doing curriculum development,

00:34:51.612 --> 00:34:53.502
so, so it's, so it's a big thing.

00:34:53.922 --> 00:34:58.272
The productized offer was only
because I moved to Hutchinson, Kansas.

00:34:58.662 --> 00:35:00.492
I moved to Hutchinson, Kansas,
and it's like, man, there's

00:35:00.492 --> 00:35:01.812
a lot of food trucks in town.

00:35:02.427 --> 00:35:04.017
None of them have a working website.

00:35:04.377 --> 00:35:05.847
There's a lot of coffee shops in town.

00:35:05.847 --> 00:35:07.317
None of them have a working website.

00:35:07.467 --> 00:35:10.527
And by working, I mean anything
better than a digital business card.

00:35:10.557 --> 00:35:10.647
Mm-hmm.

00:35:10.977 --> 00:35:14.397
And and some of them like you would
just be, you know, critical error

00:35:14.397 --> 00:35:15.807
screens or all kinds of stuff.

00:35:15.987 --> 00:35:16.047
Yeah.

00:35:16.077 --> 00:35:17.127
And I thought, you know what?

00:35:17.472 --> 00:35:21.882
Let's make a sample website for a
food truck, a sample website for a

00:35:21.882 --> 00:35:25.362
consultant, a sample website for a
construction company that does remodeling.

00:35:25.902 --> 00:35:28.212
What are the tools that each
of those would want, like make

00:35:28.212 --> 00:35:31.182
appointments or charge for this
or have a menu or whatever.

00:35:31.632 --> 00:35:36.232
And then we, through our hosting, have
a thing called blueprinting, which is

00:35:36.232 --> 00:35:41.242
like a, it's like a multi-tenancy idea
where you just clone that, that instance.

00:35:41.887 --> 00:35:43.777
They name it, they put their URL on it.

00:35:43.807 --> 00:35:45.277
They can change whatever
they want to change.

00:35:45.277 --> 00:35:46.507
It's an independent site.

00:35:46.507 --> 00:35:48.667
It's not a multi-site and it's theirs.

00:35:48.727 --> 00:35:54.367
And so we offer those as a super
affordable startup package and then $79

00:35:54.367 --> 00:35:55.777
a month for hosting and maintenance.

00:35:56.017 --> 00:35:56.107
na: Mm-hmm.

00:35:56.347 --> 00:35:58.867
Kurt: Because we update all the
plugins and, 'cause they're, they

00:35:58.867 --> 00:36:00.007
wanna run their food truck, right?

00:36:00.037 --> 00:36:01.597
They don't wanna know how WordPress works.

00:36:02.152 --> 00:36:03.682
Toby: How much of that is standardized?

00:36:03.682 --> 00:36:07.942
Like for, for the plugin and theme mix
across, let's say you have 10 food truck

00:36:08.002 --> 00:36:13.822
sites, do they use the exact same plugins
and themes, or are they Ver variety of My

00:36:13.822 --> 00:36:14.362
Kurt: goal

00:36:14.572 --> 00:36:14.692
Toby: mm-hmm.

00:36:14.842 --> 00:36:17.122
Kurt: Is to put them
all on the same thing.

00:36:17.272 --> 00:36:17.422
na: Mm-hmm.

00:36:17.722 --> 00:36:18.082
Kurt: Right.

00:36:18.082 --> 00:36:22.282
Because let's face facts, like
that's, the sample is mostly

00:36:22.282 --> 00:36:23.992
like yellow and orange, right?

00:36:24.322 --> 00:36:26.512
So it looks like an Oscar
Meyer side, I guess.

00:36:26.752 --> 00:36:28.002
But, Someone else comes in.

00:36:28.272 --> 00:36:31.152
Okay, we're gonna change that primary
color to blue, the secondary color

00:36:31.152 --> 00:36:32.952
to red, the primary color to gray.

00:36:32.952 --> 00:36:34.122
The secondary color to yellow.

00:36:34.122 --> 00:36:36.552
The the, and then the site
looks completely different.

00:36:36.582 --> 00:36:36.672
Mm-hmm.

00:36:36.972 --> 00:36:37.152
na: And then

00:36:37.482 --> 00:36:40.032
Kurt: you throw in tacos on
one and hot dogs on another.

00:36:40.092 --> 00:36:42.072
They're completely different websites.

00:36:42.072 --> 00:36:42.702
na: Mm-hmm.

00:36:42.708 --> 00:36:42.767
But.

00:36:43.507 --> 00:36:47.137
Kurt: so all the client has to do
is change the images and the text.

00:36:47.627 --> 00:36:50.177
and then we give them training,
like I forgot to mention that, but

00:36:50.177 --> 00:36:53.447
we give them training on here's
how you update the shopping cart.

00:36:53.447 --> 00:36:57.167
Here's how you update, here's how you
add your stripe contact information.

00:36:57.677 --> 00:36:59.177
you know, I saw Matt's thing.

00:36:59.177 --> 00:37:03.177
He did a, a video on
making a, a brew house.

00:37:03.177 --> 00:37:05.067
A tap house website using.

00:37:05.367 --> 00:37:07.797
Gravity form and gravity square, add-on

00:37:08.217 --> 00:37:08.247
Toby: uhhuh.

00:37:08.517 --> 00:37:10.647
Kurt: And I was like, man, that was clean.

00:37:10.707 --> 00:37:11.247
That was clean.

00:37:11.247 --> 00:37:11.307
Yeah.

00:37:11.847 --> 00:37:13.047
Toby: So you, it made you think.

00:37:13.287 --> 00:37:13.557
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:13.557 --> 00:37:17.637
So, so I might steal that example and,
and do a different project with that.

00:37:17.637 --> 00:37:18.087
Toby: Mm-hmm.

00:37:18.093 --> 00:37:18.292
na: But

00:37:18.412 --> 00:37:21.147
Kurt: I like having these different
projects where they're, they're

00:37:21.147 --> 00:37:24.687
kind of templatized and then they
go, oh, well I, I'm a consultant.

00:37:24.922 --> 00:37:25.372
Great.

00:37:25.372 --> 00:37:25.462
Right?

00:37:25.492 --> 00:37:26.752
Here's a consultant website.

00:37:26.782 --> 00:37:29.122
It makes appointments, it
charges people for things.

00:37:29.122 --> 00:37:31.132
It has a CRM built into it.

00:37:31.132 --> 00:37:32.812
It does this, it does this, it does this.

00:37:33.082 --> 00:37:37.072
It's 1500 bucks and it's yours and it's 79
bucks a month to host it and maintain it.

00:37:37.402 --> 00:37:38.332
And they go, okay.

00:37:38.962 --> 00:37:39.922
And it just makes it, it easy

00:37:40.222 --> 00:37:41.002
Toby: a question.

00:37:41.392 --> 00:37:42.292
It's kind of related.

00:37:42.332 --> 00:37:44.342
it popped in to my, my head.

00:37:44.392 --> 00:37:44.872
so

00:37:47.992 --> 00:37:50.512
the reason, the reason we're
able to make our businesses work.

00:37:50.817 --> 00:37:53.787
Is 'cause we've figured
out how to sell this stuff.

00:37:53.937 --> 00:37:54.237
Mm-hmm.

00:37:55.947 --> 00:37:59.397
Would it be, I haven't seen an
example of that with someone from,

00:37:59.487 --> 00:38:03.657
let's say, Pakistan, figuring
out how to sell in Hutchinson,

00:38:03.657 --> 00:38:05.667
Kansas or Minneapolis, Minnesota.

00:38:05.667 --> 00:38:08.037
Like, what's the blocker there?

00:38:11.242 --> 00:38:16.227
Kurt: You are gonna make me sound mean,
Toby, when someone like, for instance.

00:38:17.727 --> 00:38:19.137
I have a couple customers.

00:38:19.137 --> 00:38:22.227
I, I've one in the
Netherlands, one in the uk.

00:38:22.227 --> 00:38:23.397
I have one in Spain.

00:38:24.807 --> 00:38:28.017
I, nope, they're not with
me anymore from Italy.

00:38:28.017 --> 00:38:29.067
They're not with me anymore.

00:38:29.487 --> 00:38:33.447
And those are like people that
knew me from something, right?

00:38:33.447 --> 00:38:37.167
So they knew me from the power sports
industry, or they knew me from,

00:38:37.537 --> 00:38:40.927
maybe the podcast that I'd done with
WP Tonic or something like that.

00:38:41.377 --> 00:38:44.587
But if I didn't have that connection,
I wouldn't have those clients.

00:38:45.187 --> 00:38:48.397
There's no way I would be able
to jump into the, into the fray,

00:38:48.427 --> 00:38:51.637
you know, in Spain and become the
number one web provider in Spain.

00:38:52.237 --> 00:38:53.317
Yeah, that's a great way to look

00:38:53.317 --> 00:38:53.497
Toby: at

00:38:53.497 --> 00:38:53.647
Kurt: it.

00:38:53.647 --> 00:38:55.177
So it, it just wouldn't happen.

00:38:55.177 --> 00:38:58.357
And so the expectation that
they would come here and find

00:38:58.357 --> 00:39:01.117
success is pretty slim unless.

00:39:01.987 --> 00:39:03.517
They get notoriety some other way,

00:39:03.637 --> 00:39:05.617
Toby: but why couldn't it
happen for you in Spain?

00:39:05.617 --> 00:39:08.017
I'm, that's what I'm trying, that's
the question I'm asking like, like

00:39:08.017 --> 00:39:13.417
you or me, like what's stopping us
from, and or, or here's another way

00:39:13.417 --> 00:39:16.297
less extreme example, and this is, I'm
talking about this with my SEO guy.

00:39:16.297 --> 00:39:21.847
Like he's like, maybe we should like
open a fake Atlanta office and capture

00:39:21.847 --> 00:39:24.397
some of the Atlanta local Google juice.

00:39:24.637 --> 00:39:24.907
What's.

00:39:25.792 --> 00:39:26.692
We haven't done it yet.

00:39:26.692 --> 00:39:29.512
We pro, I don't know if we will or
not, but like, what's stopping us?

00:39:29.512 --> 00:39:32.902
Or you, or you know, just from, you
have Hutchinson, why not Kansas City?

00:39:33.262 --> 00:39:33.352
na: Like,

00:39:33.597 --> 00:39:33.817
Kurt: you

00:39:33.817 --> 00:39:33.897
na: know?

00:39:33.902 --> 00:39:33.952
Yeah.

00:39:34.012 --> 00:39:34.162
Like,

00:39:34.462 --> 00:39:34.882
Kurt: yeah.

00:39:35.632 --> 00:39:38.662
Well there's a girl that jumps on the
post status calls from Kansas City.

00:39:38.662 --> 00:39:39.892
I really don't wanna tick her off.

00:39:39.892 --> 00:39:41.392
She seems like she's full of energy.

00:39:43.252 --> 00:39:43.972
She come after me.

00:39:44.362 --> 00:39:45.352
But you know what?

00:39:45.862 --> 00:39:46.372
So.

00:39:47.602 --> 00:39:49.102
Take it from another example.

00:39:49.312 --> 00:39:50.932
You're in your town, right?

00:39:51.292 --> 00:39:52.462
People know who you are.

00:39:52.462 --> 00:39:55.912
We see you around, you're getting on a
podcast, you're doing, you're, you're

00:39:55.912 --> 00:39:57.712
spreading your mojo around, right?

00:39:58.342 --> 00:40:02.032
There's other WordPress people in
your town doing effectively, little

00:40:02.032 --> 00:40:05.092
to nothing, but somehow still have
a business tile over their door.

00:40:05.272 --> 00:40:06.292
na: Mm-hmm.

00:40:06.352 --> 00:40:11.702
Kurt: When I go to Grok and I say, who
are the best, agencies to get a WordPress

00:40:11.702 --> 00:40:13.382
website made in Hutchinson, Kansas?

00:40:14.427 --> 00:40:16.617
Ana Nomas doesn't come up on the list.

00:40:16.677 --> 00:40:16.767
na: Mm-hmm.

00:40:17.307 --> 00:40:19.827
Kurt: It starts naming companies
I've never even heard of Uhhuh.

00:40:20.647 --> 00:40:24.607
and then I start asking it questions
like, why didn't you recommend Ana Nomas?

00:40:24.607 --> 00:40:26.137
And it says, well, why would I, you know?

00:40:26.227 --> 00:40:27.577
And then it says, I'm like, oh.

00:40:28.057 --> 00:40:31.407
And then, but it kept recommending this
one company where I know the owner.

00:40:31.782 --> 00:40:34.632
And so I talked to her and I said,
I said, Hey, you know, you were the

00:40:34.632 --> 00:40:38.742
number two recommended person on Grok
for, for local website development.

00:40:38.742 --> 00:40:40.002
And she's like, oh, that's super cool.

00:40:40.002 --> 00:40:41.842
You know, I said, who
are these other people?

00:40:41.842 --> 00:40:45.052
And she's like, oh, I haven't
seen them do anything in years.

00:40:45.742 --> 00:40:46.102
Right?

00:40:46.102 --> 00:40:49.942
And so then it's like you realize, like
you mentioned, the local SEO Juice, right?

00:40:50.647 --> 00:40:54.397
It's like, how is AI making
these decisions and coming up?

00:40:54.577 --> 00:41:00.857
So AI made me a ton of suggestions on how
to become more, localized for AI search.

00:41:01.277 --> 00:41:05.357
I implemented all that stuff, waited two
weeks, did another search to duplicate

00:41:05.357 --> 00:41:07.487
it, and I didn't get much better results.

00:41:07.817 --> 00:41:08.027
na: Mm-hmm.

00:41:08.537 --> 00:41:10.307
Kurt: So it's, you gotta
be in for the long haul.

00:41:10.637 --> 00:41:11.027
Toby: Yeah.

00:41:14.657 --> 00:41:19.127
So the sales thing has always been weird
to me, and, and I've realized like.

00:41:19.682 --> 00:41:21.602
it takes, it, it's a skill and a talent.

00:41:21.602 --> 00:41:22.232
Like anything

00:41:22.532 --> 00:41:25.232
Kurt: like, well, how many of your
sales are, are what you would call

00:41:25.232 --> 00:41:32.282
happenstance or SEO doing its job
versus personal connection referral,

00:41:32.762 --> 00:41:35.372
some kind of, you know, touch.

00:41:38.222 --> 00:41:41.102
Toby: Yeah, I don't, I mean, I
would guess half are SEO related,

00:41:41.162 --> 00:41:45.542
like cold leads or warm leads from
SEO and half are personal leads.

00:41:45.592 --> 00:41:49.062
It's a weird thing though, like, like,
and I think maybe this is the answer to

00:41:49.062 --> 00:41:55.692
my original question, like, why can't you
sell in Spain or Kansas City that sales

00:41:55.692 --> 00:42:00.402
is like an art form in and of itself,
and selling in Kansas City might be way,

00:42:00.702 --> 00:42:04.062
way different in a way than selling in
Hutchinson and saying here, you know,

00:42:04.752 --> 00:42:06.552
Kurt: well there's that
famous saying, right?

00:42:06.552 --> 00:42:10.802
Says If all else is equal, people
will do business with people

00:42:10.802 --> 00:42:12.002
they know, like, and trust.

00:42:13.052 --> 00:42:13.442
Right?

00:42:13.502 --> 00:42:18.612
And so we're super involved here in
town, we're, we are involved with Startup

00:42:18.612 --> 00:42:20.862
Hutch, all our entrepreneur activities.

00:42:21.192 --> 00:42:25.332
We go to all the after hour parties
with the local Chamber of Commerce.

00:42:25.512 --> 00:42:29.892
Hutchinson in a very strange way,
opened itself up to us when we

00:42:29.892 --> 00:42:31.482
moved here almost two years ago.

00:42:31.872 --> 00:42:32.892
And just.

00:42:33.237 --> 00:42:34.257
Soaked us up.

00:42:34.257 --> 00:42:36.657
Like I, I got in touch with Startup Hutch.

00:42:36.687 --> 00:42:37.857
I said, I love the city.

00:42:37.857 --> 00:42:39.087
It's a great place to move.

00:42:39.087 --> 00:42:41.157
I can't believe all the
opportunities that are here.

00:42:41.547 --> 00:42:44.257
And, they put me on a podcast right away.

00:42:44.467 --> 00:42:48.247
And then the city invited me to speak
at City Hall for a entrepreneur class.

00:42:48.427 --> 00:42:51.877
And then I spoke at the high school
and I spoke at the college, and

00:42:51.907 --> 00:42:53.227
now I do stuff at the church.

00:42:53.287 --> 00:42:58.987
And it just keeps snowballing, like we are
integrated into the community so quickly

00:42:58.987 --> 00:43:01.237
here that it makes it hard to fail.

00:43:01.612 --> 00:43:05.552
Toby: So how, let's say you're, let's
say, 22 years old, you're kind of

00:43:05.552 --> 00:43:09.842
getting into WordPress and you wanna
make some money, you wanna, you wanna

00:43:09.842 --> 00:43:14.912
transition from your job wherever to,
you know, making some part-time and maybe

00:43:14.912 --> 00:43:17.192
full-time cash doing WordPress freelance.

00:43:17.192 --> 00:43:21.662
And what's the biggest bang for the
buck for getting that first sale and the

00:43:21.752 --> 00:43:25.502
second sale in terms of time, not dollar
spend, but like, you have no money.

00:43:25.982 --> 00:43:27.152
How are you gonna get your first sale?

00:43:27.152 --> 00:43:28.622
Where, what would you recommend for like.

00:43:29.312 --> 00:43:32.792
You have 10 hours this week,
where should they invest 'em?

00:43:32.792 --> 00:43:32.912
You know,

00:43:34.322 --> 00:43:37.502
Kurt: I always go back to,
and this is gonna sound like

00:43:37.502 --> 00:43:39.452
some weird guru stuff, right?

00:43:39.842 --> 00:43:42.242
But I just always go back
to what's your niche?

00:43:42.242 --> 00:43:43.562
What are you interested in?

00:43:44.072 --> 00:43:47.972
How, how do you find your people like.

00:43:48.467 --> 00:43:48.677
Ju.

00:43:48.947 --> 00:43:51.107
So what if you're 22 years old, right?

00:43:51.137 --> 00:43:52.667
Are, are you into mountain biking?

00:43:52.667 --> 00:43:53.837
Are you into bicycling?

00:43:53.837 --> 00:43:54.977
Are you into skateboarding?

00:43:54.977 --> 00:43:57.657
Are you into, you know,
dj, you know, music?

00:43:57.657 --> 00:43:59.697
Are you into video games?

00:44:00.187 --> 00:44:01.237
figure out what you're into.

00:44:01.687 --> 00:44:06.397
Then get into those groups,
whether they're live or virtual.

00:44:06.397 --> 00:44:08.257
Get into those groups.

00:44:08.767 --> 00:44:09.577
Add value.

00:44:10.192 --> 00:44:10.612
Right.

00:44:10.612 --> 00:44:14.422
So, so give away some free
information or, you know, show

00:44:14.422 --> 00:44:15.862
that you're a knowledgeable person.

00:44:16.402 --> 00:44:21.322
And then through passion and
affiliation, leads begin to erupt.

00:44:22.162 --> 00:44:22.252
Mm-hmm.

00:44:22.492 --> 00:44:25.822
You know, and once you do the first
gig, you get that person to give

00:44:25.822 --> 00:44:29.452
you a testimonial, and then you got
two or three gigs, and then out of

00:44:29.452 --> 00:44:32.992
those two or three gigs, you end up
with one or two more testimonials.

00:44:33.652 --> 00:44:34.942
And then you just leverage it.

00:44:35.152 --> 00:44:38.242
You just start going, you just start
moving, and then you increase the

00:44:38.242 --> 00:44:40.402
scope of your niche after that.

00:44:40.792 --> 00:44:45.202
So like for me, a lot of my work
was based on, some fitness stuff.

00:44:45.602 --> 00:44:49.652
I got real big into like Spartan
races and Century rides on bicycles.

00:44:50.232 --> 00:44:53.257
I'm really big in power sports
and the Marine, with boats.

00:44:53.707 --> 00:44:56.257
And so a lot of my work is
centered in those areas.

00:44:58.177 --> 00:44:58.537
Toby: Great.

00:44:58.897 --> 00:45:00.517
We are just about out of time here.

00:45:00.877 --> 00:45:04.357
wanna thank everyone for listening, Kurt.

00:45:04.387 --> 00:45:04.987
Thank you.

00:45:05.497 --> 00:45:05.857
Toby.

00:45:05.857 --> 00:45:06.247
Thank you.

00:45:06.967 --> 00:45:07.657
I'm thanked.

00:45:08.797 --> 00:45:11.317
Kurt: Well, let's, let's do
this, Toby, for the, for the

00:45:11.317 --> 00:45:12.667
new listeners and viewers.

00:45:12.917 --> 00:45:13.787
how can they best reach you?

00:45:14.577 --> 00:45:15.657
Toby: you can find me on LinkedIn.

00:45:15.787 --> 00:45:17.977
my last name is C-R-Y-N-S.

00:45:18.027 --> 00:45:20.517
that's probably the best place
You can go to the mighty mo.com.

00:45:20.577 --> 00:45:23.277
If you google the Mighty mo
WordPress, you'll get me.

00:45:23.307 --> 00:45:27.227
Otherwise, you'll get the famous
Battleship or, or, in Missouri.

00:45:27.227 --> 00:45:30.767
I think it might, it's not Kansas City,
but it's some, some place by Hutchins.

00:45:31.517 --> 00:45:32.417
na: I didn't understand that.

00:45:32.417 --> 00:45:35.943
Toby: But, it's a radio station, the
Mighty Mo, but go to the mighty mo.com

00:45:35.943 --> 00:45:37.473
WordPress, you'll find me.

00:45:38.763 --> 00:45:39.483
How about you, Kurt?

00:45:39.633 --> 00:45:40.293
How can people find

00:45:40.293 --> 00:45:40.473
Kurt: you?

00:45:41.213 --> 00:45:42.803
like yourself, I'm on LinkedIn.

00:45:42.893 --> 00:45:46.073
I'm the only Kurt van on and on LinkedIn,
so if you find me, you know, you got me.

00:45:46.523 --> 00:45:49.363
And, I guess we can also ask the
listeners and viewers if they had

00:45:49.363 --> 00:45:52.663
a really great name for the show,
that would be awesome, right?

00:45:52.663 --> 00:45:52.753
Mm-hmm.

00:45:53.333 --> 00:45:57.103
for, for agencies, by agencies
and, I guess that's that.

00:45:57.283 --> 00:46:00.823
Toby: And then also show your love to the
WP Minute for sponsoring this podcast.

00:46:00.863 --> 00:46:03.113
Matt and his team do an amazing job.

00:46:03.113 --> 00:46:05.723
They've been doing it for 15
years or something like that.

00:46:05.803 --> 00:46:06.973
they keep on trucking.

00:46:06.973 --> 00:46:10.093
They're like the little engine
that will never, ever stop.

00:46:10.108 --> 00:46:11.928
So there you go.

00:46:11.953 --> 00:46:12.733
So thanks everybody.