[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: You are indeed. And I believe Pia Lee, that you have a new government in Australia down under.

[00:00:21] Pia: We do, is it slightly nailbiting there's a different one, this one. I think all my life. and probably all of yours, we really only have two choices. It's sort of like ice creams, chocolate, vanilla, you know, and, and this was really interesting. It was definitely a bit of a, we, not me because there really became a sort of third entity. And there was a real push for these independents who are largely females. They were cooled at teal independence because of the t-shirts that they wore, and they're really focused on climate change and anti-corruption, which had been two things that have plagued us.

[00:00:59] Australia is not the leading force as it should be around climate. And I think this was. Slowly that the opinion of in true democracy of the people was not being reflected in the views and the government. And we've had a pretty divisive time, and I think we're a bit fragmented. And what I was, what felt for me a real, we, not me, was that the whole country came together and did vote for change. You know, We still might have a leading party in that. But I think that, I think they made their voice felt in a strong way that, that we need to focus on these things.

[00:01:38] Dan: More diverse, I think as well, these these independences of,

[00:01:42] Pia: definitely. And it brings a difference. you know, We both know you, you can, you look at the U S you look at the UK and you look at Australia and there's just two major parties with different approaches, but there've been the same for a long time. Whereas this broader diversity book bought a choice and and the population voted for that choice. They voted for many, many independents, the largest number that we'd ever had to come in and just shake up the system.

[00:02:13] I mean, uh, like many things got to play out. They've got to deliver, we don't know how to work out, but at least we didn't vote for the same, which I think would have been really disappointing.

[00:02:24] Dan: good. It's so, so good to see. And I, you know, the Brexit referendum here, made me realize that if you take a choice of two things to a group, it's going to polarize people and it's going to make people position. Automatically. And so it's loving to see this sort of third, it's sometimes a false dichotomy as well. So lovely to see this third option coming out and, and um, getting some representation. So it seems much fairer if we have to try to balance the needs of everyone rather than, oh, there's a winner. Great. They can go ahead for four or five years.

[00:02:57] Pia: I think poor old Scott Morrison didn't do himself any favors because the final video of him, which became a bit of internet sensation was him playing. Footy with the some kids, but actually bowling one over and nearly crushing him as he landed. Yeah, that didn't get on too well.

[00:03:14] Dan: Everyone wants to see that

[00:03:16] Pia: I know exactly. Which is what happened to our guest. This is uh, unbeknownst to her. yeah, let's, tee that up. We're going to talk to. 

[00:03:25] Dan: A true legend actually. 

[00:03:26] Pia: Yeah. Wonderful woman. Jackie Weaver. So yeah, this was an I don't think she intended to become an internet sensation, did she?

[00:03:33] Dan: No, she didn't, but it was a lock down internet sensation I saw yesterday, you know, we were all w I think it was came at a perfect time, but while that was happening, obviously a lot of things went on to Zoom, including the, meetings of Hansworth Parish Council and Jackie's job was to coach them and help them to have successful outcomes. And it all went off. So there's a link in the show notes. Everyone hasn't seen it yet, but I think what we need to do is go and talk to Jackie Weaver, who says that she's the Nanny McPhee of parish councils. She's the fixer. So let's go and hear from her many years of experience of bringing these unusual teams together to get stuff done.

[00:04:09] Jackie, it's such a pleasure to welcome you to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:04:18] Jackie: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:04:20] Dan: It's really lovely to see you. And um, why didn't you get us all warmed up and to just give us an introduction to your, to yourself. 

[00:04:27] Jackie: Oh gosh. That's it. That's a tricky question to ask a 63 year old, cause there's quite a lot of ground to cover, but in.

[00:04:34] Pia: We've got hours.

[00:04:37] Jackie: In short I've been involved with um, with local democracy, our town and parish councils for over 25 years. And um, I like to think doing a pretty good job there in the background, but completely unnoticed by the rest of the world until that video of Handford parish council went viral back in February, 2021. And I can honestly say we've not had a quiet day since.

[00:05:05] Dan: What did you do before you entered this mysterious world that we're going to be talking about?

[00:05:10] Jackie: I say looked after 234 parish councils in Cheshire. They are local government bodies. They range at a huge range in size, going from a tiny council that might have a budget of, oh, let's say 5,000 pounds a year, up to our largest with a budget of 2 million. Um, So everything they do, they need a legal framework for doing it. Then training. They need advice. And occasionally a bit of hostage negotiation and a bit of handholding from time to time.

[00:05:38] Pia: And are they voluntary contribution in those councils or are people paid to be in on those?

[00:05:45] Jackie: Good question. And this is part of the problem when we talk about this terror of local government, because there isn't a quick answer that immediately, covers that off. There's about a hundred thousand counselors over the whole country working in about 10,000 cases. roughly. Most of them, most of the counselors will be completely voluntary. Some of them will be paid a counselor allowance, but even then we're probably talking less than a thousand pounds a year. So I think we can still pretty much say that it's certainly not a career. However, supporting them in everything they do, they have a minimum of one paid employee. Now, when I say a minimum of one it is one person, although that one person may only be working four hours a week. So that's our paid employee, a large councilor member, 2 million pound one. They will have a team of probably 25 different people paid, you know, providing different services, and a small council that one with about 5,000 pounds a year, that will probably employ someone for four or six hours a week.

[00:06:53] Now they get their money through tax. So in their locality, you know, within their geographic boundary, they raise a council tax that enables them to provide services and things for that geographic community.

[00:07:09] Dan: Excellent. Well, look that's, that's taken us into your world a little bit and Jackie on and take you back out for a second to learn a little bit more about you. And as you know, we have these conversations starter cards, which I'm, you can see me shuffling. I'm sure you think I'm going to select a special one for you, but I'm going to be random about it. And here is your card. Oh, dear. The one thing that really annoys me is. Honestly,

[00:07:34] Pia: Honestly, was that really random?

[00:07:36] Jackie: Actually there's loads of things that annoy me, you know, But I just kind of swallow hard and move on. People who overtake me and cut in that annoys me. People who eat with their mouths open, no, guest room. No that annoys me. People who do this in restaurants to attract the waiter that I, you got lost. Sorry. Lots of things annoy me.

[00:07:59] Pia: They will sound like, sort of under a grouping of sort of rather bad English manners really? Don't they?

[00:08:05] Jackie: Well, Yeah, I haven't thought of that, but yes, I guess that's true. Yeah. So maybe that's it. If I was to put it more succinctly, I'd say bad manners.

[00:08:14] Pia: I mean, we probably couldn't get a better segue. I mean, we, the three of us met shortly after. That video uh, of the Handforth parish council. And we talked about it then, and you've had a really incredible year and we'll come to that sort of like light post that, but let's, just talk about that video and that meeting first, let's start there.

[00:08:38] Talk us through how you felt and thought going through that experience because we come across a lot of people within teams who don't feel psychologically safe when they're in a team, you know, because of the dynamics or the way that people behave it's they feel uncomfortable. Now the whole question was whether you had the authority to do things or not, but how did you actually feel and think?

[00:09:05] Jackie: That's incorrect. It should be such a simple question to answer, and yet seems like an incredibly difficult one as you would, as you were asking the question, I had loads of things going through my head immediately that I wanted to offer you as an answer. I think the first thing is that there aren't a lot of pluses about getting old. Has not what it used to be. Joints aren't what they used to be. The list is endless. Okay. I don't want to turn it into a doctor who and who.

[00:09:37] But, one of the things that is positive about it is that, by the time he reached by age, I hope you have a kind of network of people and things roundabout you that matter and things that make you feel safe, cared for loved appreciated. And so when you come across someone who isn't giving you that the impact of it is less, so that what I experienced on that night was people that did not like what I was doing in that moment and did not like Jackie Weaver quote, the professional. 

[00:10:15] I think for me that is hugely important. Um, because I suspect, in fact, I know that the Jackie Weaver, a 40 years ago would have struggled much more with that sense of they, I'm not getting their approval. They don't like me. Do I need to change? You know, how do I, how do I, How do I make them like me and approve of what I'm doing? So I guess that's kind of one thread that's going through my mind.

[00:10:44] The other is. I guess I'm very outcome-focused. If I can see an end game, I can see an end goal, then I get tunnel vision. Not always a good thing, not always. But certainly in this instance, it really was a, if you like a really good protective barrier from everything else that was going on, because the only the only goal of that session for me was to make the meeting happen, and everything else was noise. So for me, success, wasn't everybody being happy. That was not going to happen on that night. But success was making the meeting happen. And all the struggle you see about the um, you know, stopping the chairman, talking et cetera, was all about making sure the meeting happened. Because if he'd spoken, he had got out something like I declared that meeting. Hasn't been lawfully called therefore I propose that we close it, put it to the vote. His two friends would have voted against it. The meeting would be finished. 

[00:11:48] So we have to stop. I had to stop him at. Simple as that didn't matter what, it doesn't matter what else is going on in here. This is the only route that I can see for this moment that will achieve that goal. So I guess that, you know, th those two things together probably the things that I felt were going on most in those few moments. And they were very few moments, although they did actually seem like awfully long 

[00:12:16] Dan: a lot, a lot and definitely spun out over, over the internet. Jackie, when I was working in the corporate world, there was a sort of running joke, which was I'm from the regional office. I'm here to help. It strikes me. Your role is a little bit like that, and you're going into a team into a group and, you're trying to help. And how you may not, it may not be easy to generalize, but how is that received? You know, W what's the spectrum of how that help is received?

[00:12:47] Jackie: I think a couple of times I've referred to myself as the nanny McPhee of the parish council world.

[00:12:53] Dan: We're using that.

[00:12:56] Jackie: because seriously my, my job is about going in to help them when they're in trouble, I mean, I often joke, you know, when somebody rings me up and say, oh, awfully sorry, we only seem to ring you when we've got a problem and then say yeah, that's what happens. Nobody ever rings me up to say, I just thought I'd let you know how wonderfully everything's going. 

[00:13:17] Dan: Come and watch.

[00:13:18] Jackie: Yeah. So, um, my job is about going into, to situations that part of my job is also part of it being about development and training and stuff like that. But when I go to a council meeting, It's either because they, they need some specific advice or they need hostage negotiations and I'm afraid more often than not, and so this is something I've found over probably the last 10 years, more often than not, it is about personalities and how they seem to find it impossible to work together. 

[00:13:54] in my introduction. I said that, you know, I've done this job for 25 years. As an organization we've grown considerably over that time. And we've grown a lot in reputation. Twenty-five years ago, our budget was something like 7,000 a year. I worked part time and did everything um, and we had about 40% of the councils of the eligible councils were in membership. Now 87% of the councils are in membership. Our budget's 140,000. And we have a, I like to think an excellent reputation in the county for supporting councils and helping them move forward and develop those relationships that are essential between them and the next tiers of government that we have in the county.

[00:14:43] So I kind of, I kind of already had that It's the word kudos, you know, Jackie Weaver is coming. She will sort it out. You know? So it's kind of like that sense of I guess it's two things. It's one kind of acknowledgement that they have a major problem. That's the first thing. And then saying I'm a reaching out to somebody to help us fix it, but they stay in stage one for an awfully long time before they reach out, unfortunately.

[00:15:13] Dan: Yeah. So you go into quite a, probably some quite hardened situations.

[00:15:18] Jackie: Yeah.

[00:15:19] Pia: What do you notice about teamwork? I mean, the video was one example of teamwork, but I think you've been always quick to point out that's not the norm. What are you seeing as you look out across the parish councils and how teamwork exists and maybe some of the challenges for them as teams?

[00:15:40] Jackie: Yeah. I think it's changing. I believe it is changing. Although you can hear, I don't clearly I'm not that committed to that that sentence I want to, I think it's probably better to say, I want to believe that it's changing. When you look at the demographic of most of our councils. And again, anyone that's listened to me witching on over the last 12 months or more knows that my kind of recurrent theme is um, we really do need to increase diversity. We've certainly got about 40, 60 split with men and women. That's good. We're getting there. But unfortunately we still have a demographic of much older men and women. And we are making inroads on that, but it's slow

[00:16:24] in councils where you see that there, there is most definitely an older demographic. I'm not sure we see much in the way of teamwork. I think we see occasional allies and the reduction in, in hostilities, in certain areas. And I don't mean anything like your Handforth. You know, I'm just talking about that, this kind of low level, not terribly well, working together. Very much people who are precious of their patch and that territorial thing, and often it is geographically territorial. Although sometimes it is territorial over an allotment or a village hall or something like that. So w we're not seeing a w we're seeing a bit of collaboration, but I'm seeing that as being different from team.

[00:17:14] But as we see more younger people coming forward, and there are definitely inroads being made into that, you see them bring with them that ethos of together we can achieve more. And definitely um, them trying to build teams both within the council and extending that kind of team network out into the wider community.

[00:17:36] Dan: Jackie, you just drill down a bit on that point, you made about the difference between collaboration and teamwork, because I think people do use all of these words, you know, quite liberally. To me, the same thing. What, what is the, it sounds like collaboration is really good, but what's missing there. If it's just collaboration and not teamwork?

[00:17:52] Jackie: For me. And it may just be the way that I use the words. It's almost like, I'm going to suspend my initial hostilities, dislike, concern about you because you're the mechanism by which I can achieve what I'm trying to do. And then none of that. Have I given any consideration to what you want, only what I want. That seems to me to be the difference. And teamwork in the same thing for me would be, if we work together, then we can achieve this and you get this. And I get there.

[00:18:28] Pia: And is that a mindset thing? Because I mean you may get new, younger blood into the teams, but they may get trolled and down by uh, a lower level of expectation.

[00:18:38] Jackie: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because I think that, I think I'm probably a collaborative worker rather than a team worker. I don't think I'm a team player, to be honest. You might challenge me on it. Maybe I may a closet team worker, and I think sometimes it comes from. And I did start with that kind of age comparison, and I certainly I try incredibly hard not to do this, but it is really difficult. So when new people come in, they come in with what they consider to be new ideas, but it's kind of like, yeah, but didn't you notice that we did that three years ago? We did that seven years ago. The outcome was this. What I want to know is what's changed that's going to make me feel that I should have some confidence in trying it again. And often what happens with that kind of youthful enthusiasm is that the ideas are there, but it's not then followed up with, and this is why will make a difference, and this is why, although you tried it three years ago, it didn't work. It might work this time.

[00:19:47] Pia: And it strikes me when I watched the video, there was uh, an absolute lack of curiosity across the team. So those, that ability to ask questions, to try and understand why, to try and seek what the, the bigger picture is. Instead, it sort of becomes a, a blame game, which is a, it must be quite tricky for somebody entering into a team like that. And particularly when you've got a community heart, I would've thought that could be a bit discouraging.

[00:20:20] Jackie: Yeah, I I've mediated for them before.

[00:20:22] Pia: Right.

[00:20:23] Jackie: And given up. 

[00:20:28] Dan: Discretion is the better part of valor. 

[00:20:30] Jackie: Seriously uh, you know, kind of like at about 10 o'clock at night, just said, I'm going home. We are not making any progress. And it was both both partners pick kind of picking up your point, Pia. Both parties are so clearly invested in their picture, their um, perception of where they are and indeed where the other team are, that there is no moving. It kind of like one of those, you know, kind of visioning things where you say, okay, I accept you're here in the blue. It's got nothing to do with politics in blue with first color that popped in my head. So you're hearing the blue pool. So can you imagine that if you step out of the blue pool, that the water next to the blue pool might be clear? And they think about it and they go, yeah, I I can see that. And if you stepped out of the clear water, can you see that the next pool might be orange? Yeah, I can visualize that. Now, can you see if you were standing in the orange pool that you're so close to the red one? That you're almost the same? Yes. So actually have a lot in common. Yeah. And you're thinking okay. got something to build on.

[00:21:50] And then they say, but we're blue. Okay. 

[00:21:57] Dan: So it's, it is ever the us, isn't it with relationships that when they start to break down, they become more positional, not less. You sort of reinforce your position, you see these people in relationships doing this and they're going further apart. Have you had. Some success, bringing people into the same pool or at least two adjacent pools when they've been positioned or what, and if so, what's a, what's an approach to, to try to reduce that the impact of the, that sort of positional status you find people in?

[00:22:27] Jackie: Yeah. And actually it's an incredibly emotional experience even for the person that's kind of facilitating it. I mean, they talk about light bulb moment and I think that's probably as good a way to describe it. I call you a better way. Let's hope maybe between us, we can. But that's, there's that moment where you have um, you know, like I'm also a mediator qualified mediator, so you'll talk to person A and you listen to the story and then you'll talk to person B and you'll listen to their story. And from an outsider's point of view, there are more points of connection than there points of disconnect. And it's how you bring them back into the room together so they're able to identify each others, that they have these points of connect. And that moment, and you can see it as almost a physical thing where one person suddenly sees the other person as a real person, not as a problem in that moment and it's incredibly powerful. You know, it, it, it, you know, really emotional um, when it happens. And then of course, having given them that gift, if you will, then the other person reciprocates, because suddenly something has moved. And that thing where they just couldn't see each other Isles, individual people, they'd moved passing each other as people, they were only being seen as issues. And we've, we've moved on from that. and something that has been an entrenched issue for months disappears in an instant.

[00:24:06] But you, I mean, no amount of those two people sitting down and talking to each other would ever get there. And I think that's the thing that people don't I don't think people appreciate that, no matter how sensitive you feel as you are as a person. Um, And you say I, I'm an empath, everybody gets on with me. I don't know why that person doesn't get on with me because they clearly have a problem. No matter that is not going to resolve itself. You two will not resolve it yourself. You need someone to come in from outside to reflect back on what the reality is because you're not seeing it.

[00:24:40] Dan: It's not just the conversation. It's the quality of that conversation that needs, that does require help. Doesn't it? In most

[00:24:47] Jackie: Yeah but it's like, sometimes people, when they go see a counselors, they won't be counselors and I bloody used at all. They just listen to you rabbiting on, they never told me what to do. And it's kind of like, that's, that's interesting because actually what you haven't appreciated is what you've talked about, that you, you know, it is very much a steered conversation. It's not just, okay I'll have a coffee, just chat to me for an hour. You know, wake me up when you're finished and I'll go.

[00:25:13] Pia: Oh, really? It's not like that.

[00:25:15] Dan: went to meet Yorkshire there, Jackie. 

[00:25:19] Pia: And what Jackie's been the response from your colleagues across the county?

[00:25:24] Jackie: I mean, that's such an interesting question and I it's difficult to answer without sounding incredibly big headed. But often people forget that I've been around for a while. Um, I didn't kind of appear in this job. Nevermind th the media stuff, but I didn't just appear in this job overnight. I have a reputation in Cheshire that built up over 25 years, and that was 25 years of working pretty damned hard. I mean, when I first went to my first meetings in, as this um, as Chief Officer, Cheshire Association Local Councils, a success would be standing up in a meeting. And saying I'm Jackie Weaver from the Cheshire Association, Local Councils, and I'm here. That's it, nothing else to contribute because the organization wasn't even known. So 25, 20 twenty-five years later, a very different organization that I believe commands respect within uh, within a large pond. 

[00:26:21] But that means that I've been used to being this way. It sounds kind of awful, but I can't leave a better way of putting it. I have been a very big fish for a long time. It's a very small problems. Don't get me wrong. But that means that people don't see me differently because their experience of me has not changed. I'm still the person that you go to when you have a problem, you'll still manage to get hold of me. You'll still get the same response. So for them, Kind of nothing has changed. 

[00:26:54] I mean, the only thing that I do notice every now, and that is is I know that people want to ask me, so what have you been doing this month or this week? You know, so I usually give an out there, you know, so then they can ask me questions about this kind of media personality that we know who's Jackie Weaver, but I feel very much separate to that person. And most of the interactions I have with Cheshire people, when I say that, I mean, Tammany parish councils in Cheshire are the same. They still speak to Jackie Weaver the one they've always known. 

[00:27:26] Pia: And so therefore they weren't surprised. In the way that you responded in that tender situation,

[00:27:32] Jackie: no, w wouldn't be not surprised by that at all. But one of the things that I really appreciate this feedback is when sometimes somebody says to me, I was out with so-and-so, um, and they said I got you on a parish council in Cheshire. Do you know Jackie Weaver? I say yeah. What's she like? And I say just the same as you see on the telly. And for me that's great. It's I want that to be their experience. And also it's something that I feel that the only way I've been able to do what I've done over the last 12 months is by being real. If I'm constantly having to do a performance every time somebody interviews me or whatever, then how on earth do I keep going? And, you know, the other thing is I never watched myself. I don't read what it's written. I don't, you know, any of those things, because I don't want to, I don't want to be different. I don't want to be reacting to something that somebody says and then try deliberately to make a change, to be more like they want me to be.

[00:28:36] Dan: Well, I don't know if you know this, Jackie, if you don't pay attention to these things, but your name is infinitely linked with that of Brittany Spears now So 

[00:28:45] Jackie: But, I mean, the funny thing about that was, you know, people always say do you really like Britney Spears? And it's just, again, it's a function of my age. I was desperately trying to think of somebody who was a pop star. That shows my age, pop star. And who was in the media and who was young and fit and attractive. And I couldn't think of anybody more modern than Brittany Spears.

[00:29:09] Dan: I get it was pretty good. it It, really stuck that's for sure it stuck, yeah. Jackie we are all about here looking at how humans connect to get stuff done together. And I think you have dedicated a quarter of a century to exactly that. W what would you leave us with? Even if you don't talk about teams, just people, humans trying to get things done. And your book? Yes, of course. We'll plug the book, but what would you leave us with?

[00:29:34] Jackie: I think what the book does for me and it kind of does for me note is that I am a complete failure when it comes to work life balance. For me, they are the same. My work and my life are totally intermingled. Always have been. Family are happy with that. We, you know, it's just how I live. The two things are very much intermingled. And the book conveys that. So some of it will be about how I deal with personal stuff. And some of it will be how I deal with work stuff. But I'm not sure that always much distinction between the two, because in many ways, I think the kind of ways in which we manage our relationships with the people we live with and care about pretty much should be the way that we are dealing with people that we work with.

[00:30:22] It's just one of those things. I never quite understood that phrase where um, you know, two things and I actually, it's one that I pick up in the book, you always hurt the one you love. Really? Okay. And you know, you, you can treat the people that you live with like shit, because they understand you. And I'm thinking we can, we just got this all wrong. Surely you should give your best side. To your family and the people you care about. And if you've got to shit side, you'd just at work, you know? Or actually just try to be a better person all around. So I just don't get that. And that phrase, um, you always hurt the one you love, actually if you look back at its origins is a song, but it comes from a man trying to explain to a woman why he cheats on Yeah, that's a real model, isn't it?

[00:31:13] Dan: it is second line is the ones you shouldn't hurt at all. I so, which is close to the truth. Isn't it?

[00:31:20] Jackie: One of the things I keep trying to get across to people is that a parish council, this entity of, of local government called the town or parish county, Is a tool. It's a mechanism for achieving something it's not an end in itself. So if your ambition is to. Parish counselor, then I don't think you're the right person for us. If your ambition is to do something within the community to change what's happening in your community to provide a play area, that's not already there to improve the footpath between the school and the church, any of these things and the mechanism by which you're going to do it is the parish council, great. I am completely behind you.

[00:32:06] I think that one of the things people forget is that when we have communities, I think we all know of what I would call the usual suspects. So many communities have a group of people that work. And I hate that phrase. When you say people work tirelessly, what on earth is that about? But what are these people who can work tirelessly? If they're working tirelessly, they're not putting enough effort into it, work hard, they get tired and then come back and do it again. You can't work tirelessly as it is, but you think it'll be in your mind all the time. Now, every time somebody says, oh, we work tirelessly 

[00:32:43] Dan: Yeah, definitely 

[00:32:44] Jackie: Well, you're not working hard enough. If you're not getting tired when you're doing something, you're not putting enough into it. So you have this group of people who. Tirelessly on behalf of your community. They're always the ones that are baking the cake. They're always the one that turns out for the event, et cetera. And my view is that a town or a parish council is something that allows people to come together collectively and support the usual suspect rather than just allowing them to burn out.

[00:33:14] So when I was young, with a small family, you know, the way kind of people got involved in doing stuff was baking a bleeding cake. There's a reason God invented Marks and Spencer's and Tesco and Waitrose and Lidl. It's for people who don't want to bake cakes. So life is not, life is too short to go out there and bake cakes and sell them to somebody who can't be asked to bake a cake. So looking for something I want to contribute to this community, I want to do something, but please God, don't ask me to bake a cake. 

[00:33:47] And council tax means that everybody can contribute to the team in a way. So if you're someone who has the energy and enthusiasm to stand as a counter, Then you will be giving that. That's what you give. And if you're someone like me who doesn't really enjoy that, that kind of community aspect, then you give money. And that way the whole community is giving something. And maybe that in turn tells us something about a team. But a team for me, isn't about X number of people coming together and giving the same thing. It's about people giving what they are able to give to the best of their ability. So in any team, there will be some people who look like they are working harder than others, but just because you looked like you're working hard, doesn't mean your contribution is better than anybody else's

[00:34:42] Pia: it's a beautiful way to put it, I think. And again, it's about, we can make judgements and assumptions. And I think that part of the reason why your video was such a viral success is that many people can see themselves in you. They may be thinking, oh god, I wouldn't know what to say, but there's just an authenticity about you and about the situation that applies to any team anywhere. We've all had tiffs, we've all had difficult situations, and we all wish that we could knock someone out of the Zoom, but I think people related to these values and these ways, down to earth practical examples. So a huge thanks. I think for sharing that with us, because I think that's a, it's a really important, a really important part. And I think I think we've had a fantastic conversation, gained a lot from it, so thank you.

[00:35:40] Jackie: My pleasure. I just on that particular point, it's often people I have the gift of the gab, I guess. Point me in the right direction to speak. Words will come out. They're there. And people often say but I couldn't think of the words that, that you said, and the things you've done. When I'm thinking about what I'm going to say, a presentation or something like that, there's nothing in my head. And I think what on earth am I going to talk about? And sometimes if I catch myself on an interview or something, I think actually that, that sounded okay. And I'm surprised that it did, but the point of saying it really is that I don't think you know, what you're capable of until it happens to you. So when you're thinking forward about, oh no, I could never do that, I would say stop saying that. Because you keep saying it, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Actually, you don't know what you would do until you're in that situation.

[00:36:41] I'll give you an even better example, which has nothing to do with words. I hate it when people bleed, I can't watch any of those programs with operations or anything like that. Red coming out of people as a total no-no for me. Um, So I would say I would run a mile rather than see it. Until your son cuts himself on a tin. And what do you do? Now, you ask any mother what they would do, and of course they would deal with it. And I think it's that kind of situation. So you don't know how you're going to react until you're in that situation. And I bet you will do much better if you watched it on playback than you ever thought you would.

[00:37:23] Dan: One of his later points that Jackie made that was around her mediation capability and and experience. And it really be reminded. It talks about at the top of the show, which was around the divisiveness, that all that our countries have seen over recent years and how she said that. When you've got two people who disagree as we saw at Handsworth Parish Council, just them talking to each other isn't going to solve it, that they need a more structured approach, because they get stuck in self, in their own positions, not looking at the sort of higher intent and particularly not looking at how much ground they actually share. I thought that was really a very timely thing to consider when we're being tempted into division.

[00:38:10] Pia: That's the amygdala speaking it, you're not able to have that rational, cognitive perception, and to see the bigger picture it's becomes win, lose, win, lose. And it and that's just going to be a death spiral for the whole thing.

[00:38:24] Dan: Yeah. And we've got to be aware that newspapers and social media sell themselves on by talking to our limbic brains. Don't they? The emotional end of town. We've gotta be really aware of that.

[00:38:35] Pia: And I D I was really intrigued to understand what was going through her as an individual, as a person during that joust. Because she did, she lived. Extremely calm, but, you know, we can all be swans and there's a bit, bit more going on below the surface than we like to admit. And I thought a commentary about, you know, 30 years ago, she wouldn't have been able to do that. So she had, she was extremely experienced and at a point in life that she was totally focused on the purpose and the goal of what she was trying to achieve. And that was really important to her. And that's what kept her, I think, like a sort of steady focus. And even though the gentlemen that were on the call tried to sway her off then that's what enabled her to be really strong and really courageous in that environment.

[00:39:26] Dan: I think that's heartening for all of us, that experience does bring some abilities and calmness down the line. But I think to reinforce that, I think if I could share with our listeners that we, in the sort of green room, when we're chatting with Jackie, before the recording, and it didn't come out in the interview, but we were discussing that moment where she became an internet. So it went viral. She actually had a choice then of just keeping her head down or embracing it. And you know, she's now written a book. She's doing interviews all the time. She's speaking at local government associates, so she's embraced it. But she said, I couldn't not do that because I've dedicated so much of my time to improving councils and helping people to respect those groups, that this is a chance to actually make a difference. So it's incredibly purpose aligned and it was not for herself, but for, for the cause actually for this sense of purpose that she not just went along with it, but he sort of rode that wave if you like and made the most of the opportunity quite got really impressive.

[00:40:21] Pia: And with that, has raised an awareness about parish councils that quite frankly, I don't think anyone really knew what. The might of, if you've ever watched vicar of Dibley. That was probably about your only experience of seeing a parish council. So it has raised it and she's used it as a way of, of really appealing to younger people to come on and be part of the community, which is a very, we not me approach, to try it, which is, you know, slowly starting to happen.

[00:40:47] She's a real champion of the cause. And used a very unfortunate meeting, which I think all of us can see parts of that in the meetings we have, but used it for a greater good to really actually help people think well, okay, how can we get ourselves through it in a difficult situation, but also about the community and the importance of parish councils.

[00:41:09] Dan: And if it can lead to some more diversity in those councils, some more younger people and all the other dimensions of diversity, I think that can only be good. A little bit like is happening to Australia just to tie that bow off a little bit from the top of the show.

[00:41:24] So that's great. That's Jackie Weaver, wonderful to have her on the show. And next week we were taking a complete change. Actually, we have a, we're looking at climbing teams we're going to be meeting Chris Ensoll and uh, these, these mostly teams of two, but obviously they rely on on each other wholly. So it'd be very interesting to get inside that little team attached to each other on a rope to understand exactly what that looks like. So Chris will be great on that topic. He's a qualified guide, hugely experienced and all around good egg. So can't wait to talk to him.

[00:41:58] Pia: I feel quite terrified just the thought of being on the side of a mountain.

[00:42:03] Dan: I've been on the side of a mountain with Chris and you feel perfectly safe. So, um, I hope we're in good hands. We're in good hands. 

[00:42:09] But that is it. For this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And please do take a moment to go onto your favorite podcast platform to give us a good one. You could also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment or a challenge. Just find the link in the show notes. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:42:39] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.