WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.059
Colin: Welcome to build and learn.

00:00:06.060 --> 00:00:06.890
My name is Colin.

00:00:07.180 --> 00:00:10.859
CJ: and I'm CJ and we're back and
we're catching up on what we're

00:00:10.860 --> 00:00:12.659
working on and what we're learning.

00:00:12.995 --> 00:00:17.685
And the first thing we're going to jump
into is a notion block limit that we

00:00:17.685 --> 00:00:22.504
just hit, we use notion to like manage
all of our notes for the podcast.

00:00:22.785 --> 00:00:27.244
And if you create too many
lines of texts in notion,

00:00:27.245 --> 00:00:29.195
basically they charge you money.

00:00:29.655 --> 00:00:33.385
And it's like, ah, man, the paper cuts
of all the different subscriptions.

00:00:33.385 --> 00:00:37.615
You've got Netflix and Disney
plus and notion and render and

00:00:37.644 --> 00:00:42.434
all these different SAS products
for work, for play, for content.

00:00:42.455 --> 00:00:43.275
And it.

00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:44.920
It just weighs on you.

00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:50.550
It's like, Oh, another thing
that wants to charge 10, a month.

00:00:50.599 --> 00:00:53.060
And it's annoying and frustrating.

00:00:54.330 --> 00:00:54.540
Colin: Yeah.

00:00:54.540 --> 00:00:56.989
Are you using notion for
anything other than the podcast?

00:00:57.709 --> 00:01:01.550
CJ: Just the podcast, like over,
over time, I've used it for lots of

00:01:01.550 --> 00:01:03.849
different content type planning things.

00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.279
And I have like had periods of
my life where I've journaled in

00:01:08.279 --> 00:01:12.689
notion, but right now the only thing
I'm using it for is the podcast.

00:01:13.330 --> 00:01:13.570
I,

00:01:13.745 --> 00:01:15.385
Colin: we don't, we don't
want you paying for that then.

00:01:15.769 --> 00:01:17.439
CJ: yeah, it's like, I don't know.

00:01:17.529 --> 00:01:19.530
Maybe we can go back and delete
a bunch of blocks or something

00:01:19.570 --> 00:01:21.220
like you said to make it work.

00:01:21.260 --> 00:01:21.660
So,

00:01:22.445 --> 00:01:24.365
Colin: it's interesting because
I started to think about that.

00:01:24.365 --> 00:01:29.075
And then like, even though most of those
blocks are past episodes and we have them

00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:34.465
live and the show notes are live, like
there's like a little bit of a, like, it's

00:01:34.465 --> 00:01:36.054
kind of emotional to go and delete that

00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:36.440
CJ: yeah,

00:01:37.794 --> 00:01:40.095
Colin: It's like a emotional residue.

00:01:40.105 --> 00:01:41.204
I'm like, do we want to keep this?

00:01:41.204 --> 00:01:43.635
This is also probably why I have
too many things in my house.

00:01:43.635 --> 00:01:47.870
But yeah, I, if we're only using it for
the podcasts, it would be interesting for

00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:53.190
us to explore, like I was thinking about
obsidian with some sort of get back system

00:01:53.199 --> 00:01:59.099
or maybe even we just go get hub projects
and make a repo for the podcast and kind

00:01:59.099 --> 00:02:02.019
of walk the talk of, of being in public.

00:02:02.019 --> 00:02:05.669
And and if you want to come on the show,
you can open an issue or a PR, you know,

00:02:05.729 --> 00:02:06.519
CJ: Mm hmm.

00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:06.589
Mm hmm.

00:02:07.339 --> 00:02:08.629
Colin: slide into those get hub DMS.

00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:09.969
CJ: Totally.

00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:10.419
Yeah.

00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:11.379
So help.

00:02:11.499 --> 00:02:13.659
I have heard a lot of
people talk about obsidian.

00:02:13.659 --> 00:02:18.239
I know it's like the second brain thing,
but it sounds like, is it file backed

00:02:18.249 --> 00:02:20.199
or like, what is the database behind it?

00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:25.529
And is it like a replacement for
notion or how are you using obsidian?

00:02:26.419 --> 00:02:27.319
Colin: Yeah, obsidian.

00:02:27.769 --> 00:02:30.329
I, it's more of an
aspirational thing for me.

00:02:30.329 --> 00:02:32.839
I use it because it's in Markdown.

00:02:32.849 --> 00:02:35.909
Like I can, I can write a lot of
docs there when I don't want to write

00:02:35.929 --> 00:02:40.739
my docs straight into like my work
for, for doing work docs and stuff.

00:02:41.349 --> 00:02:44.695
And then it's a little tricky cause I
think I think for some reason I'm not

00:02:44.695 --> 00:02:48.725
certain, but I don't think transistors
like descriptions are exactly Markdown.

00:02:48.725 --> 00:02:50.055
They're like Markdown adjacent.

00:02:50.485 --> 00:02:54.735
And so I often write in Markdown anyway
and so obsidian works for me with that,

00:02:54.735 --> 00:02:56.574
but I don't have a consistent habit.

00:02:57.035 --> 00:03:01.115
There are a lot of obsidian plugins that
will give you things like can bands and

00:03:01.675 --> 00:03:04.995
being able to do like Excalibur draw
and all that stuff inside of obsidian.

00:03:04.995 --> 00:03:08.285
So like it becomes, it feels
a lot like notion in a way.

00:03:08.285 --> 00:03:08.325
Okay.

00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:12.460
I think it's more for yourself, but
I'm seeing on their website that they

00:03:12.460 --> 00:03:17.140
also have a subscription now for team
plans and you can have syncing and

00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:20.599
you know, if you're going to be using
obsidian, I love the design of it.

00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.300
I love the icon, like the branding of it
is just really nice, but I totally get it.

00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:26.630
Like Notion's trying to
make money to survive.

00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.640
Obsidian's got to make money to survive.

00:03:29.130 --> 00:03:33.280
But at the same time, like if we're
only using it for this podcast,

00:03:33.290 --> 00:03:36.850
which we do not do to make money,
should we be spending money?

00:03:37.085 --> 00:03:39.895
On those things, or should
we just be using free tools?

00:03:39.925 --> 00:03:42.595
Because, you know, it's
mostly coordination.

00:03:42.595 --> 00:03:46.785
We already do pay for things like
transistor and descript and all of that.

00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:48.140
CJ: mhm, mhm.

00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:50.170
Yeah, it's been on my mind too.

00:03:50.200 --> 00:03:54.860
I have so many different little projects
floating around out there that are

00:03:55.010 --> 00:03:58.230
I'm paying for hosting and I'm like
man I wish I could just like squish

00:03:58.239 --> 00:04:02.660
them all into one giant Rails app
and host like one thing in one place.

00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:06.789
So we'll talk about it in a little
bit but this project that we worked on

00:04:06.940 --> 00:04:10.580
This past weekend with my son, I just
like shoehorned it into an existing

00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:14.240
because I was like, I don't want
to spin anything else up, but yeah,

00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:15.929
love the idea about GitHub project.

00:04:15.929 --> 00:04:17.810
And they have like, GitHub
has been releasing a lot of

00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:19.239
those community tools too.

00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:23.539
So they have the discussions feature
and probably some other things too, in

00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:24.884
there that we could take advantage of.

00:04:25.610 --> 00:04:28.240
Colin: Yeah, I mean, it's also
you could run a community on

00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:30.150
GitHub, which would be interesting.

00:04:30.525 --> 00:04:30.745
CJ: Yeah.

00:04:30.745 --> 00:04:36.075
And in terms of like the way that we use
this, it's really kind of like basically

00:04:36.145 --> 00:04:40.914
a giant blob of text for the notes
that we're taking as we're recording.

00:04:40.914 --> 00:04:43.784
And also like before we record,
and then there's a few different

00:04:43.784 --> 00:04:48.754
statuses for whether an episode is
scheduled or published or in editing.

00:04:48.784 --> 00:04:53.835
And then who like, basically we kind of
like round Robin, who's going to edit it.

00:04:53.875 --> 00:04:56.695
And that's basically all
that we're using it for now.

00:04:56.715 --> 00:04:57.105
Right?

00:04:57.105 --> 00:04:57.495
Like.

00:04:58.539 --> 00:05:02.169
Colin: It is, but I think I was
listening to Fairly Technical, and

00:05:02.169 --> 00:05:05.870
they were talking about how every
podcaster has a flow like this,

00:05:06.125 --> 00:05:06.284
CJ: Mm

00:05:06.549 --> 00:05:09.580
Colin: And so it makes sense that, you
know, you don't necessarily want to

00:05:09.589 --> 00:05:13.610
have a tool that's just this, but I'm
sure someone out there will go build it.

00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:16.975
I think They had like a call for
like, someone go build this, please.

00:05:17.435 --> 00:05:20.875
Or transistor, go put this in, you
know, just as part of your flow.

00:05:21.205 --> 00:05:24.384
Especially if you're scheduling a bunch
of episodes, being able to see your

00:05:24.385 --> 00:05:29.254
scheduled episodes, your on deck episodes,
things that are coming in the future

00:05:29.305 --> 00:05:33.855
obviously, you, you know, something like
transistor is very good at like sticking

00:05:33.885 --> 00:05:38.034
to its core and not adding a bunch of
feature bloat that every new feature you

00:05:38.185 --> 00:05:39.845
add, you have to support and care for.

00:05:40.444 --> 00:05:42.174
In perpetuity, or you got to kill it.

00:05:42.284 --> 00:05:43.514
And then people are angry.

00:05:43.524 --> 00:05:46.114
Cause that's where, like in our case,
that's where our show notes are.

00:05:46.114 --> 00:05:47.714
That's where our statuses are.

00:05:48.214 --> 00:05:50.504
We also, I mean, we, I know
we're hitting the block limit

00:05:50.504 --> 00:05:55.094
because we have a huge backlog of
potential guests and topics too.

00:05:55.094 --> 00:06:00.734
So we could probably go put those
somewhere else and we've mostly gone away

00:06:00.734 --> 00:06:04.134
from doing guests, but there's a pretty
good list of cool people here that we

00:06:04.134 --> 00:06:08.714
should probably revisit having on the
show at some point and kind of figure out.

00:06:10.284 --> 00:06:11.884
See what other people are learning.

00:06:12.659 --> 00:06:13.049
CJ: Yeah.

00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:13.559
Yeah.

00:06:14.029 --> 00:06:20.099
I think the, the, like the ease of just
jumping on you and I and recording, it's

00:06:20.099 --> 00:06:24.029
like so low touch that like that I think
is also like helping with consistency

00:06:24.069 --> 00:06:28.989
is just like, okay, you know we show
up, we do our thing, we record, we edit

00:06:29.029 --> 00:06:30.799
and we publish and it's good to go.

00:06:31.229 --> 00:06:33.929
But yeah, I think like it would
be awesome to get to know a

00:06:33.929 --> 00:06:34.769
lot of these different folks.

00:06:34.769 --> 00:06:36.299
So yeah, stay tuned.

00:06:36.299 --> 00:06:40.969
I think we'll probably have
someone in this year at some point.

00:06:41.829 --> 00:06:42.169
Yeah.

00:06:42.174 --> 00:06:44.824
Colin: So I think last episode
you talked a little bit about

00:06:44.824 --> 00:06:46.534
your, your maple syrup trees.

00:06:46.544 --> 00:06:47.894
So how, how's that going?

00:06:48.289 --> 00:06:49.069
CJ: Oh my gosh.

00:06:49.109 --> 00:06:49.369
Okay.

00:06:49.369 --> 00:06:49.599
Yeah.

00:06:49.599 --> 00:06:50.839
So we teased it a little bit.

00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:55.754
We tapped some trees and I
tapped a lot of them incorrectly.

00:06:56.484 --> 00:06:58.424
So it was so sad.

00:06:58.424 --> 00:07:02.014
It was like, you went out, you go out in
the yard and it looks like there's just

00:07:02.014 --> 00:07:05.754
like gunshot wounds and the trees are just
bleeding sap, like all down their side.

00:07:05.754 --> 00:07:07.034
I'm like, I'm sorry, Mr.

00:07:07.034 --> 00:07:07.494
Tree.

00:07:07.954 --> 00:07:10.404
But we tapped one of them correctly.

00:07:10.424 --> 00:07:13.854
And thankfully that was the
sugar maple, which is the one

00:07:13.854 --> 00:07:15.564
that produced the most sap.

00:07:15.684 --> 00:07:17.094
And it was kind of wild.

00:07:17.104 --> 00:07:18.614
We, it was, it was really, really fun.

00:07:18.624 --> 00:07:22.464
Like the anticipation of waiting and
then going and checking inside Some days

00:07:22.464 --> 00:07:26.114
it would produce like nothing and other
days it would produce like three gallons

00:07:26.124 --> 00:07:28.644
of sap, which is just like mind blowing.

00:07:28.664 --> 00:07:31.004
And it comes out like
very much just like water.

00:07:31.394 --> 00:07:37.814
And so my brother was in town visiting
and we built a like makeshift homemade

00:07:37.894 --> 00:07:40.574
syrup evaporator in the backyard.

00:07:40.604 --> 00:07:44.224
We just bought like a bunch of
cinder blocks and like used pieces

00:07:44.224 --> 00:07:50.034
of the barbecue and got some, got got
built like a little chimney and had.

00:07:50.244 --> 00:07:52.544
Our like wood fired evaporator.

00:07:52.734 --> 00:07:57.364
So we had kind of like a, a catering dish
that we were able to pour several gallons

00:07:57.364 --> 00:07:59.124
at a time into and just boil it off.

00:07:59.124 --> 00:08:03.254
And we spent about four hours one
Sunday afternoon, just making s'mores

00:08:03.254 --> 00:08:06.984
and hanging out and playing card
games while we watched the fire and.

00:08:07.714 --> 00:08:12.114
Boiled off about six gallons of
syrup, which made like five cups or

00:08:12.264 --> 00:08:16.424
six gallons of sap made about five
cups of syrup, like homemade syrup,

00:08:16.424 --> 00:08:18.844
which was delicious and amazing.

00:08:18.854 --> 00:08:21.264
And it was, it was like
tons and tons of fun.

00:08:21.294 --> 00:08:24.174
So very much recommend trying it.

00:08:24.184 --> 00:08:27.264
If you're, if you live somewhere that
has maple trees it's just like small

00:08:27.264 --> 00:08:31.114
batch, you know, even if you make
like a little bit it's tons of fun.

00:08:32.089 --> 00:08:34.909
Colin: And now we understand why
maple syrup costs what it does.

00:08:35.174 --> 00:08:36.074
CJ: Oh my gosh.

00:08:36.074 --> 00:08:42.614
It's so, yeah, I think we, we calculated
out that we're spending like $16.

00:08:43.624 --> 00:08:46.644
Every two weeks on maple syrup.

00:08:46.654 --> 00:08:50.464
Cause our kids eat waffles like every
single morning for for breakfast and

00:08:50.464 --> 00:08:51.864
they just pile on the maple syrup.

00:08:51.894 --> 00:08:55.874
And so our two growing boys are
eating tons and tons of syrup.

00:08:55.874 --> 00:08:58.754
And this would the goal was
definitely not to cut into like

00:08:58.764 --> 00:09:00.514
our maple syrup spend, but,

00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:01.089
Colin: Right.

00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:02.959
You have a, you have a bucket for that.

00:09:03.609 --> 00:09:04.279
CJ: Yeah, exactly.

00:09:04.939 --> 00:09:07.889
So yeah, it was, it was
surprisingly easy to get started.

00:09:07.889 --> 00:09:13.769
You can buy the taps or the spiles,
the little like metal pieces on Amazon

00:09:13.769 --> 00:09:18.749
for, you know 30 bucks or something,
or, and then you can buy, I bought

00:09:18.749 --> 00:09:25.709
like five gallon food grade buckets
and a little kit and about like 30

00:09:25.749 --> 00:09:29.169
worth of cinder blocks and just cut
some wood, some dead wood out of the

00:09:29.179 --> 00:09:31.919
backyard and made our little evaporator.

00:09:31.929 --> 00:09:36.129
So yeah, we're probably, we probably
spent like twice as much as we

00:09:36.129 --> 00:09:38.849
spend on maple syrup on just like
supplies and getting it done.

00:09:38.859 --> 00:09:40.489
But yeah, it's tons of fun.

00:09:40.959 --> 00:09:42.059
Colin: you're homesteading now.

00:09:42.189 --> 00:09:46.109
I think that's very similar to like
people making beer and things like that.

00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:46.979
CJ: Yeah.

00:09:46.989 --> 00:09:48.539
Have you, have you brewed beer?

00:09:49.409 --> 00:09:55.569
Colin: I've done some like various ciders
and like making my own vinegar, things

00:09:55.569 --> 00:09:57.369
like that, like fermented vinegars.

00:09:57.379 --> 00:10:00.149
So a little bit less on the beer side.

00:10:01.109 --> 00:10:05.849
CJ: That sounds like very, very up
the same, like crafty sort of home.

00:10:06.409 --> 00:10:06.789
Yeah.

00:10:07.019 --> 00:10:09.899
Homesteading type stuff, which
it's like so much fun, you know,

00:10:09.899 --> 00:10:14.729
to just use this, the, I don't
know, use the stuff that earth is

00:10:14.739 --> 00:10:16.309
giving you that's like around you.

00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.159
So speaking of that, speaking of earth
and the stuff that's around you so

00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.589
I, I think we may have mentioned it.

00:10:22.084 --> 00:10:28.314
Maybe back in December, my son, Logan
was like very into getting a raspberry

00:10:28.324 --> 00:10:31.604
pie for Christmas as like a a present.

00:10:31.974 --> 00:10:33.914
And we're like, what is he going
to do with a raspberry pie?

00:10:33.924 --> 00:10:34.594
We don't know.

00:10:34.694 --> 00:10:36.774
So he got this little
single board raspberry pie.

00:10:37.264 --> 00:10:41.714
And loaded a bunch of gate, like
gaming OS things onto it and was

00:10:41.714 --> 00:10:43.174
playing just like simple games.

00:10:43.654 --> 00:10:48.294
And the other day he and his brother got
really into like tracking down the birds.

00:10:48.294 --> 00:10:50.804
Like the birds are all now coming
out now that like winter is

00:10:50.824 --> 00:10:52.344
ending and spring is starting.

00:10:52.674 --> 00:10:55.624
And so they're tracking all these
like birds of New Hampshire.

00:10:55.625 --> 00:10:55.964
And.

00:10:56.064 --> 00:11:00.854
And they wanted to build a tool
that would help them watch when

00:11:00.854 --> 00:11:04.074
birds came to a certain feeder
that like, isn't easy to see.

00:11:04.934 --> 00:11:09.924
And so like, amazingly in a
weekend, there's like so many cool

00:11:09.924 --> 00:11:11.474
tools out there for raspberry pie.

00:11:11.504 --> 00:11:17.034
And we got We got a little pie running
with a USB camera that is running.

00:11:17.074 --> 00:11:18.224
I think it's called motion.

00:11:18.504 --> 00:11:24.504
So anytime the camera detects motion,
it will start recording and then it

00:11:24.504 --> 00:11:26.624
records for a certain number of frames.

00:11:26.634 --> 00:11:29.264
And there's all these different like
things you can tune about the thresholds

00:11:29.264 --> 00:11:33.459
of, you know, How much noise you allow
and like how much motion to detect or

00:11:33.459 --> 00:11:37.529
whatever, and how many frames before to
record and after to record and everything.

00:11:38.029 --> 00:11:39.359
And then it has all these nice hooks.

00:11:39.359 --> 00:11:43.769
So like when, when it detects motion and
then when it stops detecting motion or

00:11:43.769 --> 00:11:46.869
when it takes a picture or when it stops
taking a picture or a movie or whatever.

00:11:47.439 --> 00:11:48.209
And so.

00:11:48.409 --> 00:11:53.169
We wrote a little Python script that
takes the video recording and uploads it

00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:57.839
to a rails app and then lets us and then
the rails app sends a slack notification

00:11:58.069 --> 00:12:02.449
so that like anytime the bird comes to
the window, we get a slack notification.

00:12:02.959 --> 00:12:06.999
And the next step here is that
we're going to ship it off to some.

00:12:07.090 --> 00:12:12.049
AI model to ask like, which you know,
what is the species what is the genus

00:12:12.049 --> 00:12:14.599
and species of this bird so that
we get these Slack notifications

00:12:14.609 --> 00:12:16.459
that say, you know, the Mr.

00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:20.749
Like the tifted titmouse or whatever,
the tufted titmouse is at the window,

00:12:21.069 --> 00:12:25.609
like so super, super fun project and
like mind blowing how many tools there

00:12:25.609 --> 00:12:27.139
are just to like throw things together.

00:12:27.149 --> 00:12:28.389
So that was tons of fun.

00:12:29.049 --> 00:12:29.779
Colin: That's cool.

00:12:30.029 --> 00:12:31.559
Yeah there.

00:12:31.609 --> 00:12:36.569
There's a bird feeder out there that
That will do this for you, but I love

00:12:36.569 --> 00:12:40.329
that you guys made your own We've
gotten this for my girlfriend's parents

00:12:40.849 --> 00:12:44.239
and it was one of those kickstarters
that was like three years late.

00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.639
But it works like they get text messages.

00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.909
It's like a, it's an iOS app and it's
almost like a Pokedex from Pokemon

00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.749
where it's like you've, you've
captured this bird and this bird and

00:12:53.749 --> 00:12:55.819
it identifies each individual bird.

00:12:55.819 --> 00:12:59.059
And, and they've been having a lot
of fun with it, but I love that

00:12:59.059 --> 00:13:02.199
you guys are pulling it together
yourselves and you can change it

00:13:02.199 --> 00:13:04.149
up in terms of like what it does.

00:13:04.169 --> 00:13:08.689
But having like a, a bird book that,
you know, these are all the birds that

00:13:08.689 --> 00:13:10.489
we've seen recently would be pretty cool.

00:13:11.614 --> 00:13:15.244
CJ: Yeah, that's 100 percent what
we're trying to do when we first

00:13:15.244 --> 00:13:19.614
moved here their grandparents bought
them binoculars and like birds of New

00:13:19.614 --> 00:13:24.544
Hampshire and walkie talkies to like go
outside and go like do outdoorsy stuff.

00:13:25.074 --> 00:13:27.974
And so yeah, they're, they're super
into it, but, and they've been going

00:13:27.974 --> 00:13:30.764
in the physical book and marking,
like, this is the month and year

00:13:30.764 --> 00:13:32.784
that we saw this bird or whatever.

00:13:33.074 --> 00:13:36.144
And so, yeah, we basically need to
build a Pokédex exactly like you said.

00:13:36.594 --> 00:13:40.194
And this, this actually circles back
perfectly to the subscription fatigue

00:13:40.214 --> 00:13:45.294
because we have nest cameras and we've
been paying like, I don't know, some

00:13:45.294 --> 00:13:50.334
crazy amount every year just to have this
nest camera and like the, I feel like the

00:13:50.334 --> 00:13:55.034
quality of the video and the quality of
the motion detection is not as good as our

00:13:55.054 --> 00:13:57.724
like hacked together Raspberry Pi version.

00:13:57.724 --> 00:14:00.924
So I don't know, we might be dumping
the nest here pretty soon, but.

00:14:01.974 --> 00:14:06.094
Colin: that feels like one of those, like
how much time are you going to spend on

00:14:06.094 --> 00:14:07.904
this versus that subscription on nest?

00:14:07.914 --> 00:14:11.664
But also, I mean, I, I can yeah, a lot
of those cameras are not that good.

00:14:12.174 --> 00:14:15.264
But if it's for fun, you know, I
don't know if I would trust it for

00:14:15.264 --> 00:14:18.434
home security, but if you, if you
build something that's amazing, then

00:14:18.434 --> 00:14:20.534
maybe Kickstarter on your hands.

00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:26.669
CJ: Yeah, for our, for our use cases here,
it's almost all like wildlife detection.

00:14:27.349 --> 00:14:30.409
We just want to see like, did,
was there a bear in the backyard?

00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:32.029
Was there a deer in the front yard?

00:14:32.030 --> 00:14:33.259
Are the

00:14:33.314 --> 00:14:34.594
Colin: nest won't tell you, right.

00:14:34.604 --> 00:14:36.394
That is it, does it tell
you if it's an animal?

00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:40.609
CJ: It will tell you if it's a dog
bark, like it can detect the sound.

00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:42.799
But like, other than that, I don't
think it tells you, it just says there

00:14:42.829 --> 00:14:43.029
Colin: Yeah.

00:14:43.029 --> 00:14:46.549
You're like, I want to know, especially
in Tahoe and stuff, like tell me if it's

00:14:46.549 --> 00:14:51.259
a bear or a person, tell me if it's a car,
tell me, yeah, all these different things.

00:14:51.289 --> 00:14:55.319
But this is also like where you
run into when we do a lot of those

00:14:55.339 --> 00:14:59.149
captures of like click on all of
the dogs and all of the bikes.

00:14:59.149 --> 00:15:01.619
And it's like your cameras
can also get things wrong.

00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:06.469
But I I've been impressed with how well
the bird buddy has picked up like which

00:15:06.489 --> 00:15:08.629
birds cause the camera doesn't look, okay.

00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:10.349
That good in my opinion,

00:15:10.409 --> 00:15:10.759
CJ: Mm hmm.

00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:17.749
Yeah, so we got, we tried some early,
like some early tests, and we took the,

00:15:17.999 --> 00:15:24.169
like, images of birds that we captured,
and I tried sending them to OpenAI

00:15:24.169 --> 00:15:28.009
with GPT 4 vision, like the preview of
the vision model, and just said, like,

00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:29.799
what bird is this, and it got it wrong.

00:15:30.474 --> 00:15:32.614
Which like, whatever, like
it's not tuned for that.

00:15:32.614 --> 00:15:37.534
It's just like probably telling us a
random story about a bird, but we like

00:15:37.534 --> 00:15:40.134
on iOS, you know, that thing where
you can push the eye and it will give

00:15:40.134 --> 00:15:44.794
you like the magic thing for plants
and whatever that works amazing.

00:15:44.864 --> 00:15:48.944
Like you just take, we could just take
a screenshot of the video that was

00:15:49.054 --> 00:15:50.794
happening and then click on the eye.

00:15:50.794 --> 00:15:52.495
And it was like, Oh yeah,
this is a tufted titmouse.

00:15:52.495 --> 00:15:55.204
And here's like a whole bunch of
information about it, the link to the

00:15:55.204 --> 00:15:56.784
Wikipedia page and all this stuff.

00:15:56.784 --> 00:15:59.314
So Yeah, we'll have to figure
out what Apple's running.

00:16:00.469 --> 00:16:03.989
Colin: Yeah, there's been a lot of chat
about whether or not Apple's gonna have

00:16:03.989 --> 00:16:08.569
like a big AI release at some point
that gives us access to that, because

00:16:08.929 --> 00:16:10.929
I think all of that runs on device.

00:16:11.109 --> 00:16:14.969
So being able to have it available,
it's like now, is there going to

00:16:14.969 --> 00:16:18.669
be a web version that at least is
trained on the same type of thing and

00:16:18.669 --> 00:16:22.299
you can use it, you know, similarly,
because I think open AI is making

00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:25.939
quite a bit of money between chat GPT
subscriptions, more subscriptions.

00:16:25.940 --> 00:16:26.269
Thanks.

00:16:26.409 --> 00:16:28.739
And just open AI API credits.

00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:31.479
And I think a lot of companies are
like, how can we get some of that?

00:16:32.099 --> 00:16:35.429
You've got Anthropic and all these
other companies doing the same.

00:16:35.429 --> 00:16:37.419
And we just need bird AI, right?

00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:40.459
The best bird recognition
software that's out there.

00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:41.249
CJ: Yeah.

00:16:41.249 --> 00:16:46.519
And the fact that the Raspberry Pi is
able to run so much locally, like I, I

00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:51.509
also am wondering if we could just run
like a small model locally on the pie.

00:16:52.169 --> 00:16:52.849
Yeah.

00:16:52.899 --> 00:16:56.389
Or like maybe there's even some
bird specific model that's available

00:16:56.389 --> 00:16:59.749
on hugging face that we can just
put on there and say, you know.

00:16:59.839 --> 00:17:00.769
Here's the picture.

00:17:00.999 --> 00:17:01.869
Like, what is this?

00:17:01.889 --> 00:17:04.699
And then include that in
the post request to rails.

00:17:04.709 --> 00:17:08.359
It's like, here's the video and
here's the description based on

00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.989
your model, like of what kind of
bird this is that'd be amazing.

00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:13.249
So I don't know.

00:17:13.709 --> 00:17:16.629
Colin: If there isn't one, you and
your kids can contribute your first

00:17:16.899 --> 00:17:17.109
CJ: Yeah,

00:17:17.179 --> 00:17:17.939
Colin: Hugging Face.

00:17:18.859 --> 00:17:20.979
The preeminent bird AI.

00:17:21.729 --> 00:17:22.169
CJ: yeah.

00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:23.349
It's, it's fun.

00:17:23.429 --> 00:17:24.239
It's tons of fun.

00:17:24.429 --> 00:17:24.809
So

00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:26.159
Colin: That's cool.

00:17:27.389 --> 00:17:30.279
CJ: it looks like you've got
some stuff that you have been.

00:17:31.614 --> 00:17:36.194
Sort of hinting at what details
can you share about what's going

00:17:36.194 --> 00:17:37.524
on at work in stealth mode?

00:17:38.219 --> 00:17:40.469
Colin: Yeah, so it's it's public now.

00:17:40.569 --> 00:17:42.659
And by the time this episode
comes out, it'll probably have

00:17:42.659 --> 00:17:43.789
been out for a little bit.

00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.939
But yeah, well, the things
I've been working on at work

00:17:45.989 --> 00:17:47.699
are slowly getting out there.

00:17:47.699 --> 00:17:50.529
So we have GDC, the Game
Developer Conference, next week.

00:17:51.109 --> 00:17:56.399
And the thing we've been working on
is allowing developers to build games.

00:17:56.824 --> 00:17:58.044
Inside of discord.

00:17:58.044 --> 00:18:01.194
So you can launch, you can build
a game as a developer, but then as

00:18:01.194 --> 00:18:04.764
users, you can launch these games
and you can do that already today.

00:18:04.774 --> 00:18:08.174
Like we have a bunch of games that we've
built and worked with some partners on.

00:18:08.644 --> 00:18:11.979
So a lot of mini games, when you
think of like, You know, what

00:18:11.979 --> 00:18:14.559
kind of game would you want to be
able to jump in and jump out of?

00:18:14.609 --> 00:18:16.239
A lot of party games, things like that.

00:18:16.239 --> 00:18:22.479
So my big project has been taking the SDK
and the docs that we use with partners

00:18:22.499 --> 00:18:28.379
that were pre me joining discord and
like making them publicly consumable.

00:18:28.954 --> 00:18:30.574
All the information architecture.

00:18:30.574 --> 00:18:33.244
And then like thinking through,
like as a developer, what do you

00:18:33.244 --> 00:18:34.674
have to know to do all this stuff?

00:18:34.674 --> 00:18:36.974
So, you know, kind of a cool thing.

00:18:36.974 --> 00:18:39.384
Cause I didn't have to edit
a lot of our existing docs.

00:18:39.394 --> 00:18:41.114
It was like a whole new section.

00:18:41.524 --> 00:18:45.324
So a lot of free reign around, what
does it mean to like teach someone

00:18:45.704 --> 00:18:47.744
what this is, how does it work?

00:18:47.754 --> 00:18:48.924
How can you use it?

00:18:49.424 --> 00:18:50.784
It's all developer preview.

00:18:50.784 --> 00:18:53.804
So there's a bunch of limitations
right now, but like, just how do

00:18:53.804 --> 00:18:58.724
we do all of that and, you know,
also release a TypeScript SDK that.

00:18:58.934 --> 00:19:00.754
people can use to put in their apps.

00:19:00.754 --> 00:19:03.884
So that will be available
for devs on Monday.

00:19:04.284 --> 00:19:06.514
By the time this comes out,
it'll have been out so you

00:19:06.514 --> 00:19:08.074
can go play around with it.

00:19:08.704 --> 00:19:13.884
But, yeah, I've been very one track
mind, just focused on those docs

00:19:13.884 --> 00:19:17.994
and samples and all that stuff for
what feels like a very long time.

00:19:18.764 --> 00:19:21.044
CJ: Those greenfield
projects, those are amazing.

00:19:21.064 --> 00:19:23.084
Those are like the, yeah,
those are super, super fun.

00:19:24.054 --> 00:19:24.414
Colin: Yeah.

00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:30.379
And I'm excited to go to GDC and just
like, see the engineering team that built

00:19:30.379 --> 00:19:32.919
it, get to show it off and have some fun.

00:19:32.929 --> 00:19:35.559
You know, they've been working really
hard on it for a long time too.

00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:40.469
And just, you know, that, that last
5 percent that takes the longest,

00:19:40.479 --> 00:19:43.479
the polish, the, you know, the
little things that we need to do.

00:19:43.479 --> 00:19:47.339
And then, you know, there'll be some
GDC after parties and things that

00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:50.939
where we get to celebrate all of
these little wins that we've had,

00:19:51.394 --> 00:19:51.884
CJ: nice.

00:19:52.564 --> 00:19:56.704
Is it, so help me understand
exactly like what this looks like.

00:19:56.724 --> 00:20:01.824
I, in my mind, I'm sort of imagining,
you know, Well, the, the two things

00:20:01.824 --> 00:20:05.804
that come to mind is the Shopify
sort of I forget what it's called.

00:20:05.884 --> 00:20:08.814
They're like react component
based thing where you can build

00:20:08.814 --> 00:20:10.304
your own stuff into Shopify.

00:20:10.334 --> 00:20:11.294
And then also like,

00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.269
Colin: like hydrogen and O2 and

00:20:13.374 --> 00:20:14.774
CJ: yeah, exactly.

00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:15.849
Colin: hydrogen and oxygen.

00:20:15.849 --> 00:20:16.229
Yeah.

00:20:16.424 --> 00:20:16.934
CJ: yeah.

00:20:16.974 --> 00:20:20.124
And then also I guess, Stripe
apps where like, you can embed

00:20:20.194 --> 00:20:21.234
your own thing into Stripe apps.

00:20:21.254 --> 00:20:25.754
Is that like along the
same lines or how should we

00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:27.409
Colin: I haven't looked
at the Shopify stuff.

00:20:27.409 --> 00:20:30.949
They used to have something called
which I just discovered the other day.

00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:33.869
That's called the exact same
thing called embedded app SDK.

00:20:34.499 --> 00:20:39.289
And so we, ours is also called
the embedded app SDK and.

00:20:39.584 --> 00:20:41.664
It's very similar to the Stripe apps.

00:20:41.764 --> 00:20:47.454
And I can't fully remember if Stripe apps
were hosted by Stripe or by the company.

00:20:47.904 --> 00:20:52.334
Cause in this case, you will host
your front end and backend, but

00:20:52.374 --> 00:20:57.224
you need to use our, like your,
your app is being proxied by us.

00:20:57.674 --> 00:21:00.314
And so there's a bunch of things
that you have to do in the SDK.

00:21:00.744 --> 00:21:05.624
The SDK handles the communication
with discord and the actual client,

00:21:05.634 --> 00:21:07.744
whether it's mobile or, or or.

00:21:08.209 --> 00:21:08.859
Desktop.

00:21:09.209 --> 00:21:13.889
So like authentication, a new person
joined the game, a person left,

00:21:13.889 --> 00:21:16.429
someone's talking what guild are you in?

00:21:16.429 --> 00:21:17.299
What server are you in?

00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:18.139
What channel are you in?

00:21:18.139 --> 00:21:18.929
All that kind of stuff.

00:21:19.369 --> 00:21:21.829
You do still have to build a game, right?

00:21:21.829 --> 00:21:25.529
So there is like, not really a
way to hand wave around that.

00:21:25.529 --> 00:21:28.199
You're still going to be having
to know how to do full stack web

00:21:28.199 --> 00:21:31.789
development, state management,
you know, all that kind of stuff.

00:21:31.789 --> 00:21:33.769
We're just going to be
emitting those events to you.

00:21:34.194 --> 00:21:38.034
And so it is then hosted
like in an iframe.

00:21:38.084 --> 00:21:39.764
So very similar to Stripe apps.

00:21:39.824 --> 00:21:43.204
And yeah, I think Stripe apps
was a very greenfield version of,

00:21:43.264 --> 00:21:45.234
of that for, for them as well.

00:21:45.234 --> 00:21:48.724
And, and I got to be in the,
like the beta for that probably.

00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.599
Through you or somebody, I don't
remember, but it was cool to see,

00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:54.369
or we, we had built one at orbit.

00:21:54.399 --> 00:21:55.369
That was what we had done.

00:21:55.369 --> 00:21:55.739
So yeah.

00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:56.059
Yeah.

00:21:56.059 --> 00:21:59.349
So I had worked on that a little
bit, so I had some of the like

00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.399
end user experience of that.

00:22:01.959 --> 00:22:04.889
But yeah, we, unlike the Stripe
one, we aren't like shipping

00:22:04.889 --> 00:22:06.109
components for you to use.

00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:10.399
So it's literally a blank
slate of, do you want a game?

00:22:10.399 --> 00:22:11.849
Do you want to build a shared whiteboard?

00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:13.359
Do you want to build a Kanban?

00:22:13.369 --> 00:22:17.884
Like it doesn't have to be a game, but a
lot of people, you know, You know, expect

00:22:17.924 --> 00:22:19.744
that there is a game behind that button.

00:22:19.744 --> 00:22:22.974
So we're going to be largely
focused on games, but we have

00:22:22.974 --> 00:22:24.604
one called jam space whiteboard.

00:22:24.984 --> 00:22:29.114
That's kind of like kind of like
a figma fig jam style thing.

00:22:30.734 --> 00:22:31.334
CJ: Very cool.

00:22:31.434 --> 00:22:36.414
And then is it like one way to
think about it might be discord is

00:22:36.434 --> 00:22:39.754
all of your like user management
and like player management stuff.

00:22:39.794 --> 00:22:42.454
And then you just build like
the mechanics of the actual

00:22:42.454 --> 00:22:44.844
game for some multiplayer thing.

00:22:45.944 --> 00:22:46.424
Colin: yeah.

00:22:46.424 --> 00:22:52.484
So, you know, yes, we'll tell you when
there's new users, you still probably

00:22:52.484 --> 00:22:55.634
should keep track of what users are on
your end and all of that, and just kind

00:22:55.634 --> 00:22:59.484
of get like the, the diff of someone
left, someone joined, give me all the

00:22:59.484 --> 00:23:01.414
people who are here now, things like that.

00:23:01.949 --> 00:23:04.379
And there's there's some scopes
and things you have to get around.

00:23:04.389 --> 00:23:09.039
Like if you want access to people's
username and avatar to bring into

00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:13.039
the game, you've got to opt with
us and let the user opt into that.

00:23:13.089 --> 00:23:14.859
We're not just going
to give you that data.

00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:16.829
So users are going to be.

00:23:17.449 --> 00:23:19.869
As a developer, you're going to
have to find what data you want.

00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:21.799
Users are going to have to opt into it.

00:23:22.189 --> 00:23:23.259
And that happens today.

00:23:23.259 --> 00:23:25.839
If you join any of the, the
existing activities, like we have

00:23:26.199 --> 00:23:29.249
a really fun one called putt party
that, that was built at discord.

00:23:29.249 --> 00:23:33.829
That is a really fun, like putt, putt
game that, you know, it's fun for like

00:23:33.829 --> 00:23:37.139
doing standups and stuff and just playing
a game while you're doing a meeting.

00:23:37.729 --> 00:23:42.329
And then the big one, I think is that
like over time, we hope to, you know,

00:23:42.729 --> 00:23:44.589
Have more like persistence and things.

00:23:44.589 --> 00:23:48.099
So when you leave a game and come
back, it's a new game, but being

00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:51.229
able to keep persistence, if you
have like a long running chess game,

00:23:51.649 --> 00:23:54.369
for example, that you don't have
to be there for the entire time.

00:23:54.369 --> 00:23:58.429
It could be more async and say
like, Hey, it's your turn, CJ.

00:23:58.429 --> 00:23:59.519
Hey, it's your turn, Colin.

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.259
And you'll get a message in discord,
you know, to, to take your next turn.

00:24:03.389 --> 00:24:03.769
So

00:24:03.824 --> 00:24:04.424
CJ: That's cool.

00:24:04.614 --> 00:24:04.874
I like

00:24:05.059 --> 00:24:05.359
Colin: yeah.

00:24:06.124 --> 00:24:06.334
CJ: Yeah.

00:24:06.334 --> 00:24:09.984
There's like a bunch of games that are
just like spiraling through my head

00:24:09.984 --> 00:24:15.354
about things that we built just for
fun, like a little HTML five, you know

00:24:15.484 --> 00:24:20.434
asteroids and like, you know, flying
a ship around, you like jump in, jump

00:24:20.434 --> 00:24:24.344
into a multiplayer game with other
people's ships and some random spot.

00:24:24.354 --> 00:24:26.114
And you're all just trying
to avoid the asteroids.

00:24:26.664 --> 00:24:30.644
Or even like a type racer type game
where it's like, Oh, you know, like a

00:24:30.644 --> 00:24:31.914
race is going to start in five minutes.

00:24:31.914 --> 00:24:34.594
And it's just like, who's in
the room or whatever with you.

00:24:35.074 --> 00:24:36.914
And then yeah, lots of fun stuff.

00:24:36.914 --> 00:24:40.284
So is it the events that are being
emitted, are they all kind of like

00:24:40.324 --> 00:24:44.264
JavaScript, like proper JavaScript events
that are bubbling up on the browser side?

00:24:44.264 --> 00:24:48.644
Or is it like web like a web
sockets or something like client?

00:24:48.874 --> 00:24:51.074
So they're all like client side
things that you're handling or.

00:24:51.145 --> 00:24:54.975
Colin: In the client today and then
this kind of abstracts it and talks

00:24:54.975 --> 00:24:58.535
to it, so it's, it's using something
called a post message protocol, so we're

00:24:58.545 --> 00:25:03.965
doing RPC commands over post message
between the iframe and the client and

00:25:04.085 --> 00:25:06.029
a lot of that, the SDK handles that.

00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:11.540
So you're not going and building all
these like gateway listeners and RPC

00:25:11.540 --> 00:25:13.120
listeners and commands and things.

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.570
The, the events, it's TypeScript,
so the events are typed.

00:25:17.090 --> 00:25:20.700
We know, like when we, so you know
what to expect and all of that.

00:25:21.280 --> 00:25:24.220
And I think that's where, like,
there's a lot of work that you have

00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:25.760
to do to get the thing to load.

00:25:25.930 --> 00:25:28.170
And then once you're loaded, then
you build the rest of the game.

00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:32.650
And so my joke has been like the, the
draw the owl tutorial of, you know,

00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:36.170
first you draw the two circles and
then you draw the rest of the owl.

00:25:36.490 --> 00:25:38.730
Like we are not going
to build a game for you.

00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:42.650
So like you do still have to have
experience in either a game engine.

00:25:43.070 --> 00:25:47.660
The HTML ones are amazing and they're
like kind of what we're built for, but.

00:25:48.230 --> 00:25:52.290
Things like unity and unreal and stuff are
technically possible as long as you can

00:25:52.780 --> 00:25:57.940
compile to web things like Wasm and WebGL
and all that, there's a lot of tuning

00:25:57.940 --> 00:25:59.710
that you have to do to make it work well.

00:26:00.070 --> 00:26:03.880
Cause you're running in an iframe inside
of a, maybe a mobile app or a desktop.

00:26:04.340 --> 00:26:07.190
So there's a lot of things there
that over time, we're going to

00:26:07.190 --> 00:26:08.440
be making a bunch of tutorials.

00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:12.480
I want to make a bunch of game tutorials
just because I think it'll be good for

00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:14.440
our community to learn from as well.

00:26:15.260 --> 00:26:15.930
it'd be fun to build.

00:26:17.835 --> 00:26:19.975
CJ: the, a bunch of
stuff came to mind too.

00:26:20.015 --> 00:26:25.315
One of them was that dragon
Ruby had, I feel like they had

00:26:25.315 --> 00:26:27.925
a way to build for the web.

00:26:28.295 --> 00:26:30.845
Maybe that was wrong.

00:26:31.560 --> 00:26:32.530
Colin: It does say web.

00:26:32.555 --> 00:26:34.215
CJ: Oh yeah, it does have WebAssembly.

00:26:34.215 --> 00:26:39.605
So you could write like a game in Ruby,
compile in WebAssembly and I don't

00:26:39.605 --> 00:26:40.865
know, maybe get something working.

00:26:41.305 --> 00:26:45.205
The other, the other thing was
that I, I remembered that Repl.

00:26:45.205 --> 00:26:48.545
it launched a game
framework called Kaboom.

00:26:48.545 --> 00:26:49.165
js.

00:26:49.715 --> 00:26:51.385
I don't know if you, have
you seen this at all?

00:26:51.675 --> 00:26:52.285
Colin: I have not.

00:26:54.145 --> 00:27:00.105
CJ: It is, I think it's a very basic
version that's similar to dragon

00:27:00.105 --> 00:27:05.835
Ruby, but it's all like JavaScript
methods for just calling like simple,

00:27:05.845 --> 00:27:10.895
simple things to interact with a,
I'm guessing it's just a bunch of

00:27:10.895 --> 00:27:12.905
sprites on like a canvas or something.

00:27:12.905 --> 00:27:17.015
But yes, very similar kind of
game mechanics to dragon Ruby or

00:27:17.015 --> 00:27:18.865
some other similar, like simple.

00:27:19.695 --> 00:27:20.635
Game framework,

00:27:20.735 --> 00:27:21.165
Colin: Nice.

00:27:21.685 --> 00:27:24.465
Yeah, I mean, if you've ever tried to
make a game in JavaScript by yourself,

00:27:24.495 --> 00:27:28.785
you start to realize like, I need
scenes and players and I need to move.

00:27:29.155 --> 00:27:31.585
That is not the stuff that
we're helping you with yet.

00:27:31.695 --> 00:27:32.005
Right?

00:27:32.005 --> 00:27:35.895
So like, I will definitely have to
look at this because doing it with

00:27:35.905 --> 00:27:41.375
Dragon Ruby, we have an example that
is in Unity and all these other things,

00:27:41.775 --> 00:27:44.535
you end up having to wrap your game.

00:27:45.145 --> 00:27:49.175
In the iframe and then we, you now
need to pass all the messages that

00:27:49.175 --> 00:27:51.035
we're sending you into your framework.

00:27:51.035 --> 00:27:54.745
So like you have to have these
hooks into unity or hooks into,

00:27:54.785 --> 00:27:56.115
you know, those other things.

00:27:56.115 --> 00:27:58.985
If you're just using kaboom, you're in
JavaScript and so you can handle those

00:27:58.985 --> 00:28:01.225
events and you can do those other things.

00:28:01.225 --> 00:28:06.005
So we are going to work on tutorials for
like, you know, here's the unity hook ins.

00:28:06.005 --> 00:28:07.265
Here's the unreal.

00:28:07.265 --> 00:28:09.105
Here's kaboom, all that kind of stuff.

00:28:09.105 --> 00:28:10.975
So I'll have to look at this one.

00:28:11.045 --> 00:28:11.555
Looks fun.

00:28:12.955 --> 00:28:13.135
CJ: Yeah.

00:28:13.135 --> 00:28:14.625
It reminds me of what is it called?

00:28:15.195 --> 00:28:18.855
The scratch, like that scratch
programming environment where kids

00:28:18.855 --> 00:28:22.555
can kind of like use Blockly to drag
around stuff, to build simple games.

00:28:23.045 --> 00:28:24.455
That's what Kaboom reminds me of too.

00:28:24.455 --> 00:28:26.195
It's just like very simple, little.

00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:29.850
Tools to build simple, simple stuff.

00:28:29.900 --> 00:28:30.820
So very cool.

00:28:30.820 --> 00:28:31.600
That's exciting.

00:28:31.690 --> 00:28:34.090
That's like a long time, long time coming.

00:28:34.870 --> 00:28:35.380
So

00:28:35.510 --> 00:28:36.580
Colin: across the finish line.

00:28:36.580 --> 00:28:37.310
We're excited.

00:28:37.330 --> 00:28:41.730
So hopefully we'll get to talk about
more different things now that this

00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:43.850
is getting put out into the world.

00:28:46.830 --> 00:28:48.900
CJ: Well, we'll look at,
we'll look forward to that.

00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:49.720
Yeah.

00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.270
Why don't we jump into
what we're learning about?

00:28:52.630 --> 00:28:55.930
I mean, obviously we're learning a ton
about the stuff that we're building, but

00:28:56.575 --> 00:28:57.685
Colin: Always, always learning.

00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:01.620
CJ: yeah lessons learned buying a house.

00:29:02.175 --> 00:29:05.355
Colin: Yes, this was, I don't know.

00:29:05.355 --> 00:29:06.675
This is, this is one of those things.

00:29:06.675 --> 00:29:11.385
This is like the weird housing market that
we have right now, but I, I watch Redfin

00:29:11.395 --> 00:29:13.815
like religiously and we found this house.

00:29:13.815 --> 00:29:18.955
That's, it's hard to explain, but it's
just like so different than every house in

00:29:20.170 --> 00:29:20.600
CJ: Mm

00:29:20.975 --> 00:29:23.765
Colin: we're like, you know, we
want, I think we should buy it.

00:29:23.895 --> 00:29:27.965
We were not pre qualified and
it was only on the market for

00:29:27.965 --> 00:29:29.805
three days and had three offers.

00:29:30.225 --> 00:29:33.395
And I was like, you know,
let's, we want to make an offer.

00:29:33.395 --> 00:29:35.515
And they're like, yeah,
that's very, that's very cute.

00:29:35.555 --> 00:29:38.625
But if this thing's going to
be closed in like an hour and

00:29:38.805 --> 00:29:39.995
you guys are not pre qualified.

00:29:39.995 --> 00:29:42.915
So we've learned that
like, you really shouldn't.

00:29:43.135 --> 00:29:47.545
Even be looking at Redfin because or
like in our case we went and looked at

00:29:47.545 --> 00:29:51.945
the house And we of course then fell in
love with it and we're like damn like

00:29:51.945 --> 00:29:56.505
we are gonna miss this thing So being
able to have that I mean, I think when

00:29:56.505 --> 00:30:00.605
you have an agent They're also going
to take you more seriously if you're

00:30:00.605 --> 00:30:03.985
pre qualified like otherwise, they're
like, yeah We'll show you the house,

00:30:03.985 --> 00:30:06.175
but we're not going to put a lot of
effort into selling you anything because

00:30:06.175 --> 00:30:07.925
you're not You haven't done that step.

00:30:08.425 --> 00:30:11.595
But it did send me down this rabbit
hole of like, you know, right now rates

00:30:11.595 --> 00:30:17.285
are really high, but not historically,
but relative to the last four years.

00:30:17.855 --> 00:30:21.795
And it started sending me down
this rabbit hole of like, does

00:30:21.795 --> 00:30:25.465
it make, like, I've always been
taught to always do 20 percent down

00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:26.823
CJ: Mm hmm.

00:30:27.055 --> 00:30:30.505
Colin: a lot of that is because
of PMI or, you know, your property

00:30:30.505 --> 00:30:35.185
mortgage insurance, because you
haven't hit that 20 percent equity.

00:30:35.185 --> 00:30:35.475
Okay.

00:30:35.710 --> 00:30:37.970
And I started looking at all
these different ways for us

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.520
to not do 20 percent down.

00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:42.760
And I think if we had pulled the
trigger on this and put it in

00:30:42.760 --> 00:30:45.330
an offer, we probably wouldn't
have done 20 percent down.

00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:49.880
But like when you do first home buyer,
you can go all the way down to three, 3%.

00:30:50.090 --> 00:30:54.030
And I can see how that gets a lot
of people locked in their house.

00:30:54.455 --> 00:30:57.915
you know, being house poor, not being
able to technically afford their house.

00:30:57.925 --> 00:31:01.395
So in a way it was like, yeah, we
missed the boat on this, but we saved

00:31:01.405 --> 00:31:05.245
all the pictures so that we can have
inspiration for like, if we find a

00:31:05.245 --> 00:31:09.925
house, cause it was a flip, like the
house did not look that nice before

00:31:10.005 --> 00:31:11.445
these people took this one over.

00:31:13.215 --> 00:31:14.205
It was definitely a flip.

00:31:14.205 --> 00:31:16.545
So also you're like, what didn't we know?

00:31:16.585 --> 00:31:17.885
Like, was it flipped?

00:31:17.885 --> 00:31:22.015
Well, is there secrets that they
painted over things like that?

00:31:22.475 --> 00:31:26.335
So in terms of that, it was definitely
like a developer who was buying up houses

00:31:26.335 --> 00:31:31.155
and, and cause I, the other one we looked
at as we walked in, we're like, I think

00:31:31.155 --> 00:31:35.280
this house, It's owned by the same people
just based on the finishings and stuff.

00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:37.650
And then we walked around and we're like,
yeah, this is totally the same people.

00:31:37.890 --> 00:31:41.170
So whatever, whoever these people
are, they have an aesthetic

00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:42.470
that I apparently enjoy.

00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.000
But yeah, so a lot of lessons learned.

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:48.720
We went on a rollercoaster of emotions of
like, Oh, we're going to look at a house.

00:31:48.750 --> 00:31:49.800
Oh, we're going to put an offer.

00:31:49.850 --> 00:31:50.989
Oh, you guys don't have them.

00:31:51.350 --> 00:31:52.580
Your prequalification.

00:31:52.590 --> 00:31:57.170
So sorry, this house is going to be
gone before you wake up tomorrow.

00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:02.810
CJ: So were there any other houses
or this was like the only one so far?

00:32:03.260 --> 00:32:05.880
Colin: This was the only one,
and I'll send a link to you.

00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:10.410
I'm not going to put it in the show
notes, but it is remarkably different.

00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:11.460
And it's just interesting.

00:32:11.490 --> 00:32:15.200
Like it feels a little bit more like a
Palm Springs home, like in the style.

00:32:15.800 --> 00:32:18.530
And now that I look at all the
other houses in town, I'm like,

00:32:18.590 --> 00:32:19.620
these are all just houses.

00:32:19.650 --> 00:32:22.060
Like none of these speak to me at all.

00:32:22.490 --> 00:32:24.850
And if we're going to spend a
bunch of money on a house, I want.

00:32:25.175 --> 00:32:28.045
You know, to have, it's like, it's
like watching those house hunters

00:32:28.045 --> 00:32:31.245
show where they're like, what are,
what are their two, what are your

00:32:31.245 --> 00:32:32.525
jobs and what are you looking for?

00:32:32.595 --> 00:32:36.105
And you know, I feel unreasonable
attachment to this house,

00:32:36.330 --> 00:32:36.760
CJ: Mm hmm.

00:32:37.035 --> 00:32:38.115
Colin: it's just a house.

00:32:38.165 --> 00:32:42.785
And I do think we are in the longterm
going to wait and make sure we

00:32:42.785 --> 00:32:47.435
have the 20 percent down because
the math worked, but it was dumb

00:32:47.435 --> 00:32:48.695
how much more expensive it was.

00:32:48.695 --> 00:32:53.285
If you don't put down 20%, especially
with 7 percent interest rates right now.

00:32:54.795 --> 00:32:55.095
CJ: Yeah.

00:32:55.095 --> 00:32:58.215
So lots of good learnings, I think.

00:32:58.275 --> 00:33:04.615
Yeah when we bought our first
house, we made so many mistakes.

00:33:05.165 --> 00:33:10.025
So you've learned a lot of the same
stuff that we learned, but also or

00:33:10.025 --> 00:33:12.595
like, and things to look out for.

00:33:13.015 --> 00:33:21.415
So we tried to buy a house in 2008 and
we put in we went down, it was like in

00:33:21.415 --> 00:33:24.335
a, in a place where it had, you know,
the model home and there's like real

00:33:24.335 --> 00:33:26.885
estate agents just kind of like sitting
there waiting for you to walk in.

00:33:27.295 --> 00:33:31.705
We went in, put in an offer,
offer got accepted, and we went

00:33:31.705 --> 00:33:35.175
through the whole process of
like prequalifying and whatever.

00:33:35.235 --> 00:33:35.545
Right.

00:33:36.185 --> 00:33:37.715
We got to the point where.

00:33:38.260 --> 00:33:41.600
We were trying to get ready to move
out of the place we were renting

00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:44.540
and our lease was going to end.

00:33:44.900 --> 00:33:50.090
And so we like had already ended our
lease and we had like other people

00:33:50.090 --> 00:33:51.880
coming in and like moving in behind us.

00:33:52.070 --> 00:33:54.040
And so we had like a pretty
hard date to get out.

00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:57.540
And escrow was supposed to
close at a certain time.

00:33:57.550 --> 00:34:01.360
And so we're like, okay Let's see if
the seller will like, let us just move

00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:04.600
in temporarily and we can like rent it
would be like a rent back or whatever,

00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:09.290
or like, there's different terms for it,
but sometimes you sell your house and

00:34:09.290 --> 00:34:13.190
then you stay in it and then you rent it
from the new owner before you move out.

00:34:13.190 --> 00:34:16.690
I think that's called a rent back
different, similar thing where like in

00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:24.520
this case we moved in before we closed
and then like the 2008 crash happened.

00:34:25.085 --> 00:34:25.685
Colin: no.

00:34:25.965 --> 00:34:32.485
CJ: That week that we're in the house and
all of the subcontractors for the GC that

00:34:32.485 --> 00:34:37.825
built the house came calling for their
cash, like, which doesn't usually happen.

00:34:37.825 --> 00:34:40.645
Usually the GC can like
float a bunch of money.

00:34:40.645 --> 00:34:43.445
And like, as things are closing,
they can pay the framer.

00:34:43.825 --> 00:34:47.395
You know, for the, the, the house that
just closed and they can pay the, the

00:34:47.405 --> 00:34:50.575
drywall people, they can drive the
paint, pay the painters and the pavers

00:34:50.575 --> 00:34:52.515
and the whatever, like the roofers.

00:34:52.925 --> 00:34:59.595
But when the market crashed, what
happened was the GC's like bank

00:34:59.615 --> 00:35:01.295
was one of the banks that failed.

00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:05.830
And so that triggered this
opportunity for all of the subs

00:35:05.830 --> 00:35:07.920
to renegotiate their contracts.

00:35:08.350 --> 00:35:11.320
And when they renegotiated, they
were like, Oh, we want our money now.

00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:14.480
And so that meant that the
contractor didn't have enough money

00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:16.390
to pay all the subcontractors.

00:35:16.575 --> 00:35:16.825
Colin: Right.

00:35:16.835 --> 00:35:18.005
It cascaded all the way

00:35:18.270 --> 00:35:21.350
CJ: yeah, it just like,
just came crashing down.

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:25.210
And long story short,
we never got to close.

00:35:25.590 --> 00:35:27.540
So we moved into this house.

00:35:27.845 --> 00:35:32.265
And it, the, the loan, like the
actual thing never closed escrow.

00:35:32.265 --> 00:35:36.125
And so we were in this wild situation
where like, we're living in this house.

00:35:36.135 --> 00:35:41.375
We don't own, but like the seller, which
was like the contractor, like just let

00:35:41.375 --> 00:35:45.245
us live there basically indefinitely
until we could find another house.

00:35:46.105 --> 00:35:50.385
And so what was kind of crazy is like,
we had bought like washer and dryer and

00:35:50.395 --> 00:35:54.685
had them installed like up the stairs
and like all this stuff, like we were

00:35:54.705 --> 00:35:56.485
in it, like in it and living in it.

00:35:56.495 --> 00:36:00.385
And it was like our, you know, our new
place, but it never, it never technically

00:36:00.385 --> 00:36:01.955
closed and it was never really ours.

00:36:02.525 --> 00:36:04.970
And I think we also got very attached.

00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:06.540
To that house.

00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:11.320
And that ended up totally being like
silver lining blessing in disguise

00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:14.800
because as the market crashed, the
price of everything went way down.

00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:20.130
And so we ended up getting in or
like yeah, over, over the next

00:36:20.140 --> 00:36:24.310
several months, we, we probably
saw like 80 different properties.

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.690
So we went and looked at like a
billion foreclosures and it was crazy.

00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:34.125
Like in 2008, people were like, Getting
evicted or they're foreclosing and

00:36:34.125 --> 00:36:38.175
they're just would leave with like the
cabinets and like all the furniture

00:36:38.195 --> 00:36:41.455
and like the windows and like just
stuff that like, you're not supposed to

00:36:41.455 --> 00:36:42.775
take out of the house when you leave.

00:36:43.175 --> 00:36:46.415
And so we'd go into these
foreclosures that were just gutted.

00:36:46.515 --> 00:36:50.775
So it was kind of wild, but we ended
up finding a S a separate place and

00:36:50.775 --> 00:36:54.535
landing there, but yeah, I guess
the learning in this case is don't

00:36:54.535 --> 00:36:56.045
move in before you actually close.

00:36:56.885 --> 00:37:00.195
Colin: That, yeah, I was like, I
didn't even think about 2008, but

00:37:00.275 --> 00:37:04.815
even just doing that before you
close has all sorts of implications.

00:37:05.885 --> 00:37:06.615
But, wow.

00:37:07.515 --> 00:37:10.285
Yeah, I mean, just the idea
that your value might go down

00:37:10.905 --> 00:37:12.345
in putting you underwater.

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:15.270
You know, even today is a, is a concern.

00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:19.540
It was good because we both put
down like a pro con of this specific

00:37:19.540 --> 00:37:26.470
house, which then, and then like, how
would we, you know if we, we, there's

00:37:26.470 --> 00:37:29.120
like a bunch of weird things that
we have to do, like sequencing that

00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:32.070
would not have made sense, like we
actually want to sell Chanel's place.

00:37:32.080 --> 00:37:32.560
First.

00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:36.570
But like we were being, we were
acting out of like, was this scarcity?

00:37:36.580 --> 00:37:37.640
Was this FOMO?

00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:40.940
Like we were not coming from
a place of strength and power.

00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:44.790
So like we would rather have it
pre qualified know that the other

00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:48.480
property is sold first, or at least
we have it on the market even.

00:37:49.145 --> 00:37:51.465
And then we also have some health
issues and things that, that

00:37:51.465 --> 00:37:52.565
we're trying to tackle right now.

00:37:52.565 --> 00:37:56.765
So not exactly the best time, but we
were, we were kind of given into the FOMO.

00:37:56.775 --> 00:38:02.785
So I shared a link in the chat here of
the house, but it definitely is just so

00:38:02.825 --> 00:38:04.655
different compared to a lot of the houses.

00:38:04.945 --> 00:38:08.115
And I do think like, again, it gives
us a good sense of like what we'd

00:38:08.115 --> 00:38:09.935
like to achieve, like in our own.

00:38:09.935 --> 00:38:13.055
And maybe similar to the, how the
flipper did it, like they bought

00:38:13.055 --> 00:38:14.830
this house for like four 50 yeah.

00:38:14.890 --> 00:38:16.300
And they were selling it for 600.

00:38:16.310 --> 00:38:20.320
So like, maybe we find a
similarly structured house

00:38:20.330 --> 00:38:21.590
somewhere that we want to be.

00:38:22.070 --> 00:38:25.290
And I'm curious, like how much is the,
of the neighborhood is important to you?

00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:25.610
Right.

00:38:25.610 --> 00:38:29.190
Cause you can't change the neighborhood
and like the neighborhood was not perfect.

00:38:29.610 --> 00:38:30.560
The house was good.

00:38:31.180 --> 00:38:35.460
We were, we were clearly making some some
justifications for why we should do this.

00:38:36.215 --> 00:38:40.435
CJ: Yeah, the neighborhood matters
so much, like, for us at least,

00:38:40.435 --> 00:38:42.145
like, it's such a massive thing.

00:38:42.655 --> 00:38:47.745
I think also, like, if you can
figure out who the flipper was, like,

00:38:47.745 --> 00:38:50.195
you might be able to go and work
directly with them and say, like,

00:38:50.740 --> 00:38:50.970
Colin: Yeah.

00:38:50.970 --> 00:38:52.110
Who's your contractors?

00:38:52.110 --> 00:38:53.160
Yeah.

00:38:53.200 --> 00:38:53.830
CJ: to the contractor.

00:38:53.850 --> 00:38:57.560
Cause they want to do like, they want to
do different kinds of deals or whatever.

00:38:57.560 --> 00:38:59.800
And they're probably, there's
actually really interesting

00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:01.040
techniques that I was learning about.

00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:05.990
And I think there's only like a handful
of like really big flippers in Reno that

00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:10.250
do like hundreds of houses a year where
they'll buy flips, you know, sell, and

00:39:10.250 --> 00:39:12.540
they've got the same crews and whatever.

00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:16.160
But one of the things that I learned
about was like, And this is actually

00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:21.570
applicable to Kraftwerk too, is that
when you or I just go down to Home Depot

00:39:21.570 --> 00:39:25.820
and we see some fixture or some flooring
or something, there is a certain price.

00:39:26.410 --> 00:39:33.870
And that price is marked up an insane
amount to be like the, like B to C cost

00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:36.200
of some amount of flooring or whatever.

00:39:36.220 --> 00:39:40.410
And there's so much that goes into
that for them to not, like, so

00:39:40.410 --> 00:39:42.930
much goes into the markup for them
to have, you know, the stores and

00:39:42.930 --> 00:39:44.420
employees and all this other stuff.

00:39:44.910 --> 00:39:50.900
Whereas some of these like really intense
flippers, they'll buy like shipping

00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:57.160
containers full of just like the same
flooring or shipping containers full

00:39:57.190 --> 00:40:00.870
of, you know, all of the same cabinets
and then they go into a house, they

00:40:00.870 --> 00:40:03.930
flip it, they just like put in the same
stuff like in the whole house and they

00:40:03.940 --> 00:40:08.155
have, they're just using like their own
wholesale Like purchase straight from

00:40:08.155 --> 00:40:12.945
China, like whatever materials that end
up being exactly the same as whatever

00:40:12.945 --> 00:40:14.175
they would be from the big box store.

00:40:14.175 --> 00:40:19.035
But, um, interesting, interesting
considerations, like maybe find the,

00:40:19.305 --> 00:40:23.845
find the flipper and see if you can work
directly with them or, you know, friends

00:40:23.845 --> 00:40:25.925
of the flipper or whatever sometimes.

00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.690
Colin: I have found them and
they, they are both, they were

00:40:29.690 --> 00:40:31.050
the seller and the brokerage.

00:40:31.050 --> 00:40:32.340
So they're also a brokerage.

00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.630
So I'm going to probably
have to go chat with them.

00:40:34.990 --> 00:40:37.680
Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about
is like, there's like a contract rate

00:40:37.990 --> 00:40:40.450
and quantity rate that you can get.

00:40:40.520 --> 00:40:43.720
And so, yeah, I mean, if someone,
you're watching these YouTube videos

00:40:43.720 --> 00:40:46.860
of people redoing a house or so it's
like, you're going to pay more if

00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:48.320
you're going straight to Home Depot.

00:40:48.790 --> 00:40:51.720
Even for the coworking space, we
have like a Home Depot pro account.

00:40:51.770 --> 00:40:53.040
Like I, we just.

00:40:53.200 --> 00:40:59.190
And it's like, here's
your contractor discount.

00:40:59.610 --> 00:41:02.160
And also you pick it up on the
other side of the home Depot and

00:41:02.160 --> 00:41:03.100
we're going to take it out to you.

00:41:03.100 --> 00:41:07.170
And it's like, okay, that's, that's like,
that's how the other side lives, CJ.

00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:08.160
CJ: Yeah.

00:41:08.200 --> 00:41:12.720
Also like I guess a secret is
that they don't confirm or they

00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:16.670
didn't at least when I was doing it
like that you are actually a pro.

00:41:16.700 --> 00:41:21.710
You can just say like, Oh yeah, the PO
for this is whatever, like my address,

00:41:21.810 --> 00:41:25.970
you know, and like often, well, like as
a veteran, I get better discounts, like

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.850
through veteran discounts at Home Depot
and Lowe's, but yeah, I think you can

00:41:28.850 --> 00:41:32.690
just go in and sign up as like, yes, I'm a
pro and I want the pro extra discount and

00:41:32.690 --> 00:41:34.370
all the pro perks, but really it's just

00:41:34.700 --> 00:41:35.000
Colin: Yeah.

00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:35.650
CJ: yeah.

00:41:36.170 --> 00:41:39.840
Colin: And there's also in, in
most cities, there is the Habitat

00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:44.830
for Humanity has like the re share
resupply stores that are really

00:41:44.830 --> 00:41:46.470
cool to restore something like that.

00:41:47.530 --> 00:41:48.210
I think it's restore.

00:41:48.495 --> 00:41:51.885
So it's a lot of like things that
some of them are super janky and

00:41:51.885 --> 00:41:55.265
some of them are super nice, but
they're just donated to be sold.

00:41:55.335 --> 00:41:59.385
It's like, you know, extra appliances,
extra fixtures, all sorts of stuff.

00:42:00.485 --> 00:42:00.925
So.

00:42:01.450 --> 00:42:02.160
CJ: Interesting.

00:42:03.030 --> 00:42:03.380
Yeah.

00:42:03.450 --> 00:42:08.060
It's lots, lots of different lots of
different lessons to be learned there.

00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:13.000
I, I am curious, like, well, one, one
of the things that I found interesting

00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:15.670
as I'm chatting with a bunch of
folks who are in the market to buy

00:42:15.670 --> 00:42:17.650
right now is how much PMI costs.

00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:22.230
Like when we bought, I think
PMI was like less than a percent

00:42:22.230 --> 00:42:23.430
or something of the mortgage.

00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:25.390
And now it seems to be
like way more than that.

00:42:25.430 --> 00:42:29.450
And it just makes the, the
actual total monthly cost is.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:30.960
So much more.

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:31.900
So what?

00:42:32.200 --> 00:42:32.450
Yeah.

00:42:32.450 --> 00:42:37.300
Like, was that something
that, I mean, yeah.

00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:40.510
So PMI is like your mortgage insurance.

00:42:40.550 --> 00:42:46.330
And if you own less than 80%, Or like
if you own less than 20 percent or

00:42:46.330 --> 00:42:50.140
something of the equity in your house,
then you have to pay for this insurance.

00:42:50.200 --> 00:42:52.220
And the insurance is
not like a fixed thing.

00:42:52.220 --> 00:42:54.420
It's like variable rate, right.

00:42:54.450 --> 00:42:56.060
Or like it's variable.

00:42:56.060 --> 00:42:58.110
And then when you get your
mortgage, it's locked in at a

00:42:58.110 --> 00:42:59.220
certain amount or something.

00:42:59.790 --> 00:43:01.070
Colin: I'm not sure how they calculate it.

00:43:01.070 --> 00:43:03.370
It's probably based on
the size of the loan.

00:43:03.510 --> 00:43:07.530
So like, again, like the less you put
down, the more PMI there's going to be.

00:43:07.750 --> 00:43:11.250
Cause it's insurance on
you not paying your loan.

00:43:11.660 --> 00:43:16.090
But in our case, like if we only
put three or five, which FHA loans

00:43:16.110 --> 00:43:21.745
allow you to do, you're going to be
owning only 3 percent of the equity.

00:43:21.745 --> 00:43:26.085
And so the amount of one, your
mortgage payment will be higher.

00:43:26.245 --> 00:43:27.645
Your PMI will be higher.

00:43:27.825 --> 00:43:29.735
So the cost of shelter will be higher.

00:43:29.775 --> 00:43:30.025
Right.

00:43:30.025 --> 00:43:33.505
And then when you think of it,
I like to think of renting and

00:43:33.515 --> 00:43:39.565
buying, like buying the floor is
your mortgage, your insurance, your

00:43:39.565 --> 00:43:43.525
PMI, all the things all in, that's
the minimum you will ever spend.

00:43:43.805 --> 00:43:44.145
Right.

00:43:44.655 --> 00:43:47.675
It's not the maximum because there's
utilities and maintenance and things

00:43:47.675 --> 00:43:52.035
are going to blow up and all that with
rents all in with utilities and rent.

00:43:52.045 --> 00:43:54.455
That is the maximum that
you will ever spent.

00:43:54.475 --> 00:43:56.285
And so there's a lot of risk there.

00:43:56.295 --> 00:43:58.465
Obviously you're not getting
equity and renting and things,

00:43:58.465 --> 00:44:00.985
but it is very interesting.

00:44:00.985 --> 00:44:05.215
And it's still also blows my mind that
like rent does not contribute to credit.

00:44:05.510 --> 00:44:11.730
Scores whatsoever, but paying a mortgage
does, you know, it's, it's pretty crazy.

00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.730
So I know there's some people out
there who are trying to change

00:44:13.730 --> 00:44:17.030
that too, with different kinds of
credit cards that you can pay your

00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:18.810
rent with and stuff like that, but

00:44:20.935 --> 00:44:21.785
CJ: Yeah, it's interesting.

00:44:21.785 --> 00:44:26.675
The other thing too about PMI is that
like, say you buy today and you put

00:44:26.675 --> 00:44:31.595
down 3%, if something wild happens
and the market goes crazy, and it

00:44:31.645 --> 00:44:35.485
pops, and it goes up to whatever,
let's just say everything doubles in

00:44:35.485 --> 00:44:39.805
value, then, Like next month you can
reach out to the lender and say like,

00:44:39.805 --> 00:44:41.965
Hey, the equity in my home is higher.

00:44:42.535 --> 00:44:44.125
I would like to have the PMI removed.

00:44:44.135 --> 00:44:46.585
And then they might say, okay,
you need to get a an appraisal.

00:44:46.675 --> 00:44:49.385
And then I think you have to go re you
have to re go through the appraisal

00:44:49.385 --> 00:44:52.055
process, but you might end up spending.

00:44:52.135 --> 00:44:55.215
200 to 500 to get it
reappraised a month later.

00:44:55.235 --> 00:44:59.525
And then they immediately remove
the PMI from the mortgage for

00:44:59.525 --> 00:45:00.735
like the rest of the mortgage.

00:45:01.205 --> 00:45:04.245
And then there are, there were some
new rules that were enacted after 2008,

00:45:04.815 --> 00:45:09.595
I think, where it's like the mortgage
company must remove it automatically

00:45:09.635 --> 00:45:11.255
after you have a certain amount of equity.

00:45:11.745 --> 00:45:12.255
So yeah.

00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:15.860
There's like a couple of different
triggers where you can like, I don't

00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:19.310
know if you buy, there's also like
some really fancy things you can do.

00:45:19.310 --> 00:45:23.150
Like get a a, like get
two different loans.

00:45:23.170 --> 00:45:25.540
Like one is a HELOC and
one is like the mortgage.

00:45:25.540 --> 00:45:28.370
And you can do like put 5
percent down, get a 15 percent

00:45:28.370 --> 00:45:30.790
HELOC and a 80 percent loan.

00:45:30.850 --> 00:45:35.070
Now you don't have to pay a PMI, but
you have like this other HELOC loan

00:45:35.070 --> 00:45:38.610
that might have, like, you have to put
in like a higher amount or something.

00:45:39.120 --> 00:45:39.430
Colin: Yeah.

00:45:39.650 --> 00:45:41.290
You've read all the same things I have.

00:45:41.290 --> 00:45:45.600
Those are the 80, 10, 80, 10,
10s, eight, eight, 80, 15, five.

00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:48.560
Like you can avoid PMI, but
you have two closing costs.

00:45:48.570 --> 00:45:50.320
There's all these things
that can happen there.

00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:52.680
And the other thing right now is
that everyone's talking about if

00:45:52.680 --> 00:45:55.450
you buy, then you're just going
to refile when rates go down.

00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:58.360
That also assumes rates will go down.

00:45:58.470 --> 00:46:00.620
And historically rates have gone higher.

00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:03.970
And I think we're on the
trend that they will go lower.

00:46:03.980 --> 00:46:04.000
Yeah.

00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:08.320
And the argument is if you can
buy today, demand and like,

00:46:08.330 --> 00:46:09.570
other than this house, right?

00:46:09.570 --> 00:46:13.020
Like most houses are sitting
on the market for longer and

00:46:13.020 --> 00:46:14.060
so there's less competition.

00:46:14.070 --> 00:46:17.420
You're not getting these all cash
offers that are jumping ahead of you.

00:46:17.810 --> 00:46:21.060
And that you can, if you can afford
it and you're not going to be house

00:46:21.060 --> 00:46:25.550
poor, you can get more house for your
dollar today because when rates go

00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:29.990
down, demand is going to go back up
and prices will likely go back up.

00:46:30.200 --> 00:46:33.780
And, you know, you'll have a lower rate,
but you're going to be buying less house.

00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:36.920
So the problem is when you refi,
you're going to have to do closing

00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:39.600
costs and reset the timer and
all that stuff all over again.

00:46:39.610 --> 00:46:43.800
So this is why millennials
don't have houses.

00:46:43.830 --> 00:46:48.020
CJ: Yeah, there's another like really
fancy thing that I learned about recently

00:46:48.020 --> 00:46:52.650
that might be interesting to think about
and that is that like if you can find

00:46:52.680 --> 00:46:58.140
someone who's motivated to sell and
they have an existing mortgage that's at

00:46:58.170 --> 00:47:01.670
like some very desirable rate, like 2.

00:47:01.670 --> 00:47:02.640
7 percent or something, right?

00:47:03.200 --> 00:47:05.770
You can like buy the mortgage off of them.

00:47:06.045 --> 00:47:09.995
And somehow they like transfer the
mortgage to you and you like take it over.

00:47:10.295 --> 00:47:14.395
Obviously you, you'd have to like pay the
different, like pay them their equity and

00:47:14.395 --> 00:47:16.075
probably a little bit of like incentive.

00:47:16.105 --> 00:47:19.875
But then you end up with a mortgage
that has like a crazy low rate and

00:47:19.875 --> 00:47:22.715
maybe only 25 years left or something.

00:47:22.725 --> 00:47:24.785
But yeah, there's some
like really interesting.

00:47:25.035 --> 00:47:26.375
Tricks that you can do there.

00:47:26.915 --> 00:47:30.725
It's been on my mind too, because we
have, we have like some older mortgages

00:47:30.735 --> 00:47:35.625
that are locked in at low, low rates,
but I want the optionality of being

00:47:35.625 --> 00:47:38.005
able to sell, but I don't want to
sell and get rid of this mortgage.

00:47:38.005 --> 00:47:41.875
So it's like, okay, maybe we can sell
it, like sell the mortgage and the

00:47:41.875 --> 00:47:46.035
house and get a kickback from the
buyer because they're going to get

00:47:46.035 --> 00:47:47.615
locked in at some super low rate.

00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:53.310
And depending on like how long, it like,
it comes, yeah, it comes down to one

00:47:53.310 --> 00:47:56.740
of the main factors is like, how long
do you plan on staying in the house?

00:47:56.760 --> 00:48:02.060
Like if you're going to stay for 10
years or more, then like, yeah, it

00:48:02.060 --> 00:48:04.700
makes sense to just like be super
aggressive to get a crazy rate.

00:48:04.790 --> 00:48:09.140
But if you're, if it's going to be a
stepping stone type situation where

00:48:09.160 --> 00:48:11.660
maybe you'll be there three years and
maybe you'll rent it after that, or maybe

00:48:11.660 --> 00:48:15.130
you'll be there three years and then
you'll want to like sell and buy up or

00:48:15.130 --> 00:48:18.900
whatever, then you might not want to like.

00:48:19.510 --> 00:48:22.690
Or it might not matter as much,
like how, how hard you fight

00:48:22.690 --> 00:48:23.620
for the rate or something.

00:48:23.630 --> 00:48:24.010
I don't know.

00:48:24.030 --> 00:48:28.580
Lots of different, like weird mental
gymnastics to go through to try to

00:48:28.580 --> 00:48:30.520
figure out like what makes sense.

00:48:30.560 --> 00:48:30.910
But,

00:48:31.205 --> 00:48:31.475
Colin: Yeah.

00:48:31.795 --> 00:48:35.325
Well, unlike most personal finance thing,
I mean, it's this, this whole thing has

00:48:35.325 --> 00:48:37.285
made me think a lot more about buckets.

00:48:37.335 --> 00:48:40.055
And I've got some ideas for things
that I want to play around with.

00:48:40.075 --> 00:48:43.455
Cause I was doing a lot of mental
gymnastics with money buckets.

00:48:43.475 --> 00:48:47.075
And I'm like, this is what
buckets should do, right?

00:48:47.085 --> 00:48:48.835
Like when you're going to make a decision.

00:48:49.040 --> 00:48:53.160
Help have it help you make that
decision and show you like why you

00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:56.710
can't touch this money, you know,
or, or you can't touch this money,

00:48:56.710 --> 00:48:58.000
but this is the penalty, right?

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:03.180
Like if you're because you can take 10
grand from a Roth IRA for a first time

00:49:03.180 --> 00:49:05.270
home purchase, but like, should you?

00:49:05.635 --> 00:49:09.815
Like, it's gonna be interest free,
and if you keep it in, can you

00:49:09.815 --> 00:49:11.215
get 10 grand from somewhere else?

00:49:11.235 --> 00:49:12.015
Can you wait?

00:49:12.395 --> 00:49:13.345
Can you save?

00:49:14.005 --> 00:49:16.585
Don't touch, ideally,
don't touch your Roth IRA.

00:49:16.615 --> 00:49:19.705
But, you know, I was starting to
look at it because this house, this

00:49:19.705 --> 00:49:21.455
house made us do dumb things, so.

00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:23.850
CJ: Yeah.

00:49:24.355 --> 00:49:24.675
Colin: Yeah,

00:49:24.790 --> 00:49:27.010
CJ: It's, it's so interesting.

00:49:27.020 --> 00:49:30.970
Like, yeah, the psychology of money
is very, very it's hard, it's hard

00:49:30.970 --> 00:49:33.820
to fight against, especially when you
fall in love with a place like you did.

00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:35.120
And that place looks dope.

00:49:35.120 --> 00:49:37.570
I'm looking at it right now
on Redfin and this thing looks

00:49:37.620 --> 00:49:40.060
amazing, like super sick backyard.

00:49:40.510 --> 00:49:44.270
Like all, yeah, every obvious, obviously
like the flipper went through and like

00:49:44.270 --> 00:49:45.910
modernized every single piece of it.

00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:47.420
So it looks like super

00:49:47.490 --> 00:49:50.930
Colin: And of course there were
some things like the, the, the,

00:49:50.970 --> 00:49:54.090
the door to get into the garage
was like a foot higher than the

00:49:54.090 --> 00:49:56.430
bottom of the door, like the floor.

00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.070
There was a few weird things from
like, this was definitely a flip.

00:49:59.580 --> 00:50:01.160
So it was not perfect.

00:50:01.200 --> 00:50:04.620
You know, it's, this is like,
I don't know, you get, you fall

00:50:04.620 --> 00:50:07.220
in love with something and you,
you ignore the red flags too.

00:50:07.300 --> 00:50:08.110
But cool.

00:50:08.180 --> 00:50:10.220
Well, I guess we, we talked
a lot about housing stuff.

00:50:10.220 --> 00:50:11.870
Do you want to save
this for the next time?

00:50:12.140 --> 00:50:15.240
Or do you want to chat
about some, some metabolism?

00:50:15.585 --> 00:50:16.145
CJ: Very cool.

00:50:16.155 --> 00:50:18.635
Well, as always, you can
head over to buildandlearn.

00:50:18.635 --> 00:50:21.615
dev and check out all the links and
resources in the show notes there.

00:50:21.675 --> 00:50:22.475
Thanks for listening.

00:50:22.695 --> 00:50:24.815
And yeah, that's it for this episode.

00:50:26.080 --> 00:50:26.830
Colin: Bye, friends.