WEBVTT 00:00:00.005 --> 00:00:03.145 Mel will have successfully framed one of us for the murder of the other. 00:00:03.345 --> 00:00:05.185 And let's be clear, it's not going to be Chaz. 00:00:06.605 --> 00:00:08.265 Wait, the victim or the murderer? 00:00:08.485 --> 00:00:10.225 Well, you decide. 00:00:18.585 --> 00:00:20.125 Hi, I'm Stu Willis. 00:00:20.285 --> 00:00:21.305 And I'm Chaz Fisher. 00:00:21.485 --> 00:00:22.545 And I'm Mel Killingsworth. 00:00:22.805 --> 00:00:26.845 And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where three emerging filmmakers try to 00:00:26.845 --> 00:00:28.985 work out what makes great screenplays work. 00:00:28.985 --> 00:00:35.245 And in this episode, we are going to be talking about landmarks, secrets, and hidden. 00:00:35.605 --> 00:00:37.565 I'm using hidden as like a lot. 00:00:37.605 --> 00:00:38.465 Question mark? 00:00:39.205 --> 00:00:39.685 Hidden? 00:00:40.025 --> 00:00:40.765 Definitely hidden. 00:00:41.045 --> 00:00:44.225 I'm going to pitch for the listeners and hopefully ends up as the title, 00:00:44.405 --> 00:00:45.745 just calling it Secrets and Clues. 00:00:45.925 --> 00:00:48.805 And we're going to be talking about the film Wake Up Dead Man by Rian Johnson. 00:00:49.065 --> 00:00:52.065 We're going to be talking about Side Effect by Scott C. Burns. 00:00:52.065 --> 00:01:00.445 And we're going to be talking about the pilot coin flip of the sitcom shrinking by, I'm blanking now. 00:01:00.825 --> 00:01:03.865 Bill Lawrence and Jason Segel and Brett Goldstein. 00:01:04.065 --> 00:01:07.805 And I do think we'll probably end up splitting this episode into two, 00:01:07.965 --> 00:01:11.345 not only because in our pre-chats we were finding a lot of different things 00:01:11.345 --> 00:01:15.065 and digging them up, but also, like a quail surprise, I have a lot to say, 00:01:15.185 --> 00:01:16.545 especially about Knives Out. 00:01:17.505 --> 00:01:22.425 Every time you add Mel to an episode, you've got to add an hour to its estimated running length. 00:01:22.605 --> 00:01:23.545 You're welcome. 00:01:23.965 --> 00:01:30.325 Solid quality. It's also probably one hour less that people have to listen to Stu and me. 00:01:30.585 --> 00:01:32.665 So, time well spent. 00:01:33.609 --> 00:01:38.869 So we'll talk, we'll unpack a little bit more about landmark secrets and hidden 00:01:38.869 --> 00:01:41.289 information, because really that's what we're talking about. 00:01:41.449 --> 00:01:46.749 The presentation of information to character and how that creates, 00:01:47.049 --> 00:01:51.509 I'm going to throw another term at you all, narrative velocity for the characters 00:01:51.509 --> 00:01:54.369 or character velocity is another way that I've heard people talk about it. 00:01:54.369 --> 00:01:58.209 But this is a spiritual follow-on from our one shot on everything, 00:01:58.429 --> 00:02:03.069 everywhere, all at once, where the lens that we took in analyzing that film 00:02:03.069 --> 00:02:08.329 was how well it does setups, payoffs, and reversals. 00:02:08.549 --> 00:02:13.349 And we defined setups, payoffs, and reversals as... 00:02:14.248 --> 00:02:18.008 Particularly payoffs and reversals as just the closing of an information gap. 00:02:18.188 --> 00:02:24.928 You had raised a question potentially in an audience's mind and you got either 00:02:24.928 --> 00:02:30.908 a narrative satisfaction or an emotional satisfaction from closing that information gap. 00:02:31.368 --> 00:02:36.288 And, uh, Stu, I think you, you stolen the observation. I think it was from William 00:02:36.288 --> 00:02:39.388 Dunn on pointers and plants. 00:02:39.528 --> 00:02:42.588 So a pointer was a setup 00:02:42.588 --> 00:02:45.368 that the audience was aware of it was 00:02:45.368 --> 00:02:48.088 making them ask a question so they knew that they 00:02:48.088 --> 00:02:51.128 were being set up and then they were going to expect at some point 00:02:51.128 --> 00:02:57.788 that pointer to point to something and get either a payoff or a reversal to 00:02:57.788 --> 00:03:03.548 get that dopamine reward a plant is something that is not attracting the audience's 00:03:03.548 --> 00:03:08.468 attention but it is still a setup so that when you do the, 00:03:08.968 --> 00:03:11.248 surprise, the payoff, the reversal. 00:03:11.488 --> 00:03:17.188 It doesn't feel out of place. And the final one that we talked about in that 00:03:17.188 --> 00:03:20.588 episode, as Stu pitched, I think three different words for this, 00:03:20.868 --> 00:03:24.168 we were alternating between underpinning and pants. 00:03:24.788 --> 00:03:28.088 Pointers, plants and pants, or pointers, plants and underpinning. 00:03:28.348 --> 00:03:32.448 But underpinning is a setup that we have to do, we have to do it as writers, 00:03:32.628 --> 00:03:37.028 but I feel like it's done a lot more by the other elements of filmmaking, 00:03:37.248 --> 00:03:40.468 where it's like the stitching of a film where you're not pointing or planting 00:03:40.468 --> 00:03:44.928 you don't want the audience even aware that it's happened but it's there so 00:03:44.928 --> 00:03:49.308 that when the payoff or the reversal or the surprise happens, 00:03:50.015 --> 00:03:56.255 It doesn't feel out of place. And the reason why I'm reiterating that is when 00:03:56.255 --> 00:03:59.775 Stu pitched doing this topic, I was like, 00:03:59.895 --> 00:04:03.675 this would be great if we focused not on the effect on the audience, 00:04:03.675 --> 00:04:07.155 but the effect on the characters as a way to lead into our future series on 00:04:07.155 --> 00:04:09.975 character journeys. And Stu's like, yeah, I got you. 00:04:10.195 --> 00:04:14.895 So, Stu, I'm going to handball to you because you've been doing a lot of warden operating. 00:04:15.495 --> 00:04:15.935 Wardening. 00:04:16.195 --> 00:04:16.935 The equivalent of. 00:04:17.415 --> 00:04:21.895 Yeah, equivalent in Dungeon Master. I mean, our podcast, Actual Play podcast, 00:04:22.235 --> 00:04:26.675 for those who listen to the sneak preview, we've recalled all the other four other episodes. 00:04:26.675 --> 00:04:31.635 I've just been on show and not edited them, but I have been reading a lot more 00:04:31.635 --> 00:04:34.595 about game design in the perspective of role-playing games. 00:04:34.695 --> 00:04:36.895 And I've done interactive fiction before. 00:04:37.015 --> 00:04:42.035 In fact, I would say my first fan fiction that I ever wrote were a couple of 00:04:42.035 --> 00:04:46.635 fighting fantasy slash choose-your-own-adventure novels back when I was in primary school. 00:04:46.635 --> 00:04:54.355 So it comes from, for those in the RPG community, a seminal post called Landmark, Hidden, and Secret. 00:04:54.575 --> 00:05:00.775 We've completely stolen the title from a blog called DIY and Dragons from an author called Am. 00:05:01.415 --> 00:05:07.275 And she devises information into three categories, Landmark, Hidden, or Secret. 00:05:07.595 --> 00:05:11.495 So Landmark information in her terminology is automatic and free. 00:05:11.615 --> 00:05:14.095 And she's going to be talking about players. And I think what's really interesting 00:05:14.095 --> 00:05:18.355 to me about thinking the relatively usefulness of theories around game design 00:05:18.355 --> 00:05:20.455 is players are characters. 00:05:20.895 --> 00:05:24.855 And so we can reappropriate this when thinking about characters. 00:05:25.095 --> 00:05:28.895 So players, here landing, mark information the first time without asking. 00:05:29.115 --> 00:05:33.235 They just get it. And they can be reminded of it freely as they heard it. 00:05:33.858 --> 00:05:40.278 She then has hiddens as the complete contrast. The hidden information isn't automatic. 00:05:40.538 --> 00:05:44.158 Players have to learn it and it often isn't free. 00:05:44.278 --> 00:05:48.798 And this is the idea that I think is actually particularly useful from a writing 00:05:48.798 --> 00:05:52.478 perspective, is that there is a cost to learning the information. 00:05:52.778 --> 00:05:58.798 There's another phrase from game design that I like in terms of thrillers, 00:05:58.798 --> 00:06:05.678 which is information puts players in danger and danger rewards characters with information, right? 00:06:05.798 --> 00:06:10.578 That's kind of the loop with like thriller game design and I think you could 00:06:10.578 --> 00:06:13.178 actually use it in all these three films. 00:06:13.338 --> 00:06:16.378 They learn a piece of information, that information puts them in danger. 00:06:16.778 --> 00:06:18.618 And then the third category is, 00:06:19.076 --> 00:06:24.856 for her, uh, is that secret information is the next level that it has no guarantees 00:06:24.856 --> 00:06:28.056 at all is the opposite of automatic and is always expensive. 00:06:28.496 --> 00:06:33.736 In other words, it requires a skill check in game design. The way I'm proposing 00:06:33.736 --> 00:06:35.676 that we talk about it, right. 00:06:35.876 --> 00:06:39.816 Is that we've got landmark information. The characters are all aware of and 00:06:39.816 --> 00:06:45.676 the audience, there is secret information, which means that characters know it's there, right? 00:06:45.856 --> 00:06:49.196 This is my way of thinking about it. So it's slightly different how Anne's talking about it. 00:06:49.336 --> 00:06:53.716 We know it's there, but we need to do something in order to get the information, right? 00:06:53.796 --> 00:06:57.356 It's the equivalent of, we know there's a door there and there's a room behind 00:06:57.356 --> 00:07:00.876 it, but it's got a key and we don't yet have the key. 00:07:01.476 --> 00:07:06.676 Hidden information is something that is at the time invisible to the characters 00:07:06.676 --> 00:07:09.356 and that they pay the cost. 00:07:09.396 --> 00:07:13.816 They earn that information and it is revealed to them. 00:07:13.976 --> 00:07:19.216 That's my way of, I'm slightly going off her, but for me, hidden and then secret 00:07:19.216 --> 00:07:20.976 being the next level is kind of, 00:07:21.696 --> 00:07:25.056 to me it makes more sense if it goes landmark and then secret and then completely 00:07:25.056 --> 00:07:30.296 hidden, but maybe I'm just confusing things and we can go back to how Anne's talked about it. 00:07:30.676 --> 00:07:33.896 Mel's giving me a look of like, am I confusing things already? 00:07:34.596 --> 00:07:37.956 No, I just think, I think you make actually a lot more sense because you are 00:07:37.956 --> 00:07:39.256 talking about a strictly visual medium. 00:07:39.436 --> 00:07:39.576 Yeah. 00:07:39.796 --> 00:07:43.036 Like, whereas RPGs are not. Like, I think that makes absolute sense. 00:07:43.136 --> 00:07:46.576 I'm just trying to wrap my head around making sure that when I use things, I'll clarify. 00:07:46.936 --> 00:07:51.096 Because really what we're talking about is secret is, I know there is something 00:07:51.096 --> 00:07:55.056 to be learned here, but I have to do something in order to get it. 00:07:55.296 --> 00:08:00.176 And for a character, hidden information is something we don't even know is something 00:08:00.176 --> 00:08:02.036 that we can learn, right? 00:08:02.654 --> 00:08:07.114 About it. And this relates to this other concept, which I mentioned, 00:08:07.234 --> 00:08:10.194 narrative velocity. And I can't remember the name of the author now. 00:08:10.414 --> 00:08:12.554 It will be in the show notes after we've Googled it. 00:08:13.034 --> 00:08:16.994 So narrative velocity in the case of game design, and this is related to video 00:08:16.994 --> 00:08:19.414 game design, particularly, but it relates to RPGs. 00:08:19.754 --> 00:08:25.454 Narrative velocity is what drives a player character to do something. 00:08:25.794 --> 00:08:29.314 And when we talk about this in often screenwriting, we talk about activating 00:08:29.314 --> 00:08:31.394 the character, making the character active. 00:08:31.694 --> 00:08:36.594 And this article breaks narrative velocity into two forms, push and pull. 00:08:36.894 --> 00:08:40.334 So a push is a character that is forced to do something. 00:08:41.148 --> 00:08:45.848 Uh, maybe they're on the run. Maybe they needed to fight for the lights and pool is them choosing. 00:08:46.248 --> 00:08:48.968 And I think there's an agency thing, which is why I'm using the word choosing. 00:08:49.188 --> 00:08:50.848 They're choosing to follow the path. 00:08:50.948 --> 00:08:53.568 And that's really important in game design because it's like, 00:08:53.668 --> 00:08:56.248 you kind of have to have a bunch of things that work together. 00:08:56.248 --> 00:08:59.988 So the players decide to go to left or right or anything. 00:09:00.008 --> 00:09:04.728 Because the thing with, with games, unlike movies is that they're, 00:09:04.848 --> 00:09:07.308 if the player stops choosing to be active, 00:09:08.088 --> 00:09:10.848 this is, there's some game designs called idle games that are not quite like this 00:09:10.848 --> 00:09:13.468 but most games require active participation of the 00:09:13.468 --> 00:09:16.408 players so therefore you have to be conscious in terms of 00:09:16.408 --> 00:09:19.808 how you're designing things to create velocity i think 00:09:19.808 --> 00:09:23.828 that's actually such a really useful idea in terms of thinking about characters 00:09:23.828 --> 00:09:29.088 i'm plotting what is the velocity of these characters it's not just what are 00:09:29.088 --> 00:09:32.608 they doing something what is their action it's what direction they're choosing 00:09:32.608 --> 00:09:37.668 to go um and i think they're related to well what information they have access to. 00:09:37.728 --> 00:09:40.908 We've talked a lot about exposition and information and all that kind of stuff. 00:09:41.088 --> 00:09:46.928 But we're talking about how does the landmark, how does the secret give them 00:09:46.928 --> 00:09:53.128 the, I mean, I guess maybe the hidden is kind of the reversal, right? 00:09:53.948 --> 00:09:56.928 When hidden is no longer hidden, it's kind of a reversal. Anyway. 00:09:57.228 --> 00:09:58.168 Or a surprise. 00:09:58.368 --> 00:09:59.148 Or a surprise. 00:09:59.328 --> 00:10:06.248 Yeah, which are often the same thing. So, we've done a bit of pre-chat and we 00:10:06.248 --> 00:10:12.228 deliberately chose a murder mystery to lead with, right, where... 00:10:13.057 --> 00:10:17.297 Secrets and clues and at what point they're revealed to the characters versus 00:10:17.297 --> 00:10:20.097 the audience, because narrative point of view is going to be really important here. 00:10:20.237 --> 00:10:24.937 We had previously covered how the unfurling of this information, 00:10:25.357 --> 00:10:29.477 pointers and plans, works in relation to the filmmaker's relationship to the audience. 00:10:30.037 --> 00:10:35.837 And what we're hoping to really focus on is going to be the character's relationship 00:10:35.837 --> 00:10:38.017 internally with the information. 00:10:38.217 --> 00:10:41.977 The secrets and clues, and how that can push 00:10:41.977 --> 00:10:44.917 the plot along basically a more character driven way 00:10:44.917 --> 00:10:48.657 of looking at your plot because there can definitely be 00:10:48.657 --> 00:10:51.797 films where the narrative velocity 00:10:51.797 --> 00:10:56.197 is constantly pushed things keep happening information 00:10:56.197 --> 00:10:59.237 keeps getting revealed by external sources to 00:10:59.237 --> 00:11:02.617 the characters that force them into a 00:11:02.617 --> 00:11:06.197 decision right rather than being 00:11:06.197 --> 00:11:09.117 rather than pulling them and i'm not saying one's good 00:11:09.117 --> 00:11:11.997 or one's bad but what i hope that we uncover from 00:11:11.997 --> 00:11:16.777 this exercise is knowing what is the effect the 00:11:16.777 --> 00:11:20.297 storytelling effect of choosing one over 00:11:20.297 --> 00:11:23.197 the other and i'm really quite excited about the examples 00:11:23.197 --> 00:11:26.117 that we've chosen because while wake up dead man 00:11:26.117 --> 00:11:29.177 is a murder mystery locked 00:11:29.177 --> 00:11:32.477 room murder mystery it has as its 00:11:32.477 --> 00:11:35.477 two lead characters one is a detective and 00:11:35.477 --> 00:11:38.257 one is not so i think there's within that 00:11:38.257 --> 00:11:41.657 we'll find really contrasting what is 00:11:41.657 --> 00:11:44.417 the narrative effect for each of those characters and what is their 00:11:44.417 --> 00:11:47.777 sort of role in the plot vis-a-vis the 00:11:47.777 --> 00:11:53.897 information and the secrets and the clues um side effects was my choice there 00:11:53.897 --> 00:11:58.877 was a chance that this episode was going to get recorded uh without me and um 00:11:58.877 --> 00:12:03.297 and i threw it out there and we'll hopefully have some lively discussion because 00:12:03.297 --> 00:12:06.557 I think I enjoy side effects a lot more than Mel and Stu do. 00:12:07.017 --> 00:12:08.897 And finally, we decided to do. 00:12:09.711 --> 00:12:16.451 A non-mystery genre and television as well to see what these tools, 00:12:16.791 --> 00:12:21.111 how they might have a different emotional impact, a different storytelling impact 00:12:21.111 --> 00:12:22.591 in those different genres. 00:12:23.431 --> 00:12:26.891 Yeah. If you're writing something that's not a mystery, how 00:12:26.891 --> 00:12:31.791 does thinking about secrets and clues from your character's perspective help 00:12:31.791 --> 00:12:37.651 you create or activate or drive or help you build plot it's like all these things 00:12:37.651 --> 00:12:44.431 they they're tools or they're just prisms that we can reflect as our mystery aficionado mel can. 00:12:44.431 --> 00:12:49.051 We like just we're gonna have like someday someone maybe ai will do a super 00:12:49.051 --> 00:12:54.211 cut of the stewisms of you saying like denouement and aficionado and like, 00:12:56.211 --> 00:12:56.731 yeah. 00:12:56.731 --> 00:13:01.571 I guess what else uh other than mystery i'll take it i'll take it i like the uh. 00:13:01.571 --> 00:13:04.851 I mean it's a It's a sub-genre of noir, right? 00:13:05.791 --> 00:13:09.951 Well, noir is a sub-genre of both. Sure, they are sub-genres of each other. 00:13:10.071 --> 00:13:12.871 Yeah, okay. But you've actively written mysteries. 00:13:13.391 --> 00:13:17.491 I've read a lot of Agatha Christie books, which this film feels very like. 00:13:18.591 --> 00:13:21.611 In fact, I've read all of the books mentioned in this film. 00:13:23.211 --> 00:13:27.731 Whose body? The murders in the room hall. Roger Ackroyd, the murder at the Vicarage. 00:13:29.097 --> 00:13:32.857 God, this is practically a syllabus for how to commit this crime. 00:13:33.637 --> 00:13:36.397 When they mention the list, I'm like, oh, yeah, I know those. 00:13:36.677 --> 00:13:41.057 If either Chaz or I die, it's not the other one of us that killed it. 00:13:41.117 --> 00:13:43.837 It's going to be Mel, just to be clear. 00:13:44.137 --> 00:13:48.257 But all of the clues will point towards the other one of you. Yes, absolutely. 00:13:48.337 --> 00:13:51.417 Mel will have successfully framed one of us for the murder of the other. 00:13:51.597 --> 00:13:53.497 And let's be clear, it's not going to be Chaz. 00:13:55.277 --> 00:13:56.857 Wait, the victim or the murderer? 00:13:57.077 --> 00:13:58.837 Well, you decide. 00:13:59.097 --> 00:14:04.837 The reason I asked Mel is obviously you're being, we're waxing lyrical and laying the information. 00:14:06.917 --> 00:14:08.997 We are not going to get into that discussion. 00:14:09.357 --> 00:14:14.517 Mel is an American, just very early learned that things in this country sometimes 00:14:14.517 --> 00:14:17.657 mean, 10 years later, I'm still learning phrases and I'm like, 00:14:17.717 --> 00:14:18.597 wait, that means what now? 00:14:19.837 --> 00:14:23.077 Did the landmark, because I sent the articles, right? Like I sent particularly 00:14:23.077 --> 00:14:25.777 the landmark secret and hidden article to you. 00:14:25.777 --> 00:14:30.237 Did that kind of like go, oh, yeah, in terms of a mystery thing, 00:14:30.557 --> 00:14:35.497 like connect the way you have experienced mystery novels and movies? 00:14:35.877 --> 00:14:39.717 And that's what I'm kind of interested in. Like, how much am I excited? 00:14:39.937 --> 00:14:44.817 Like, I'm excited about this, how we can apply it to characters and thinking 00:14:44.817 --> 00:14:46.977 about plotting from a character point of view. 00:14:47.117 --> 00:14:50.617 And it's about solving, and I'll be clear, this is about us solving some story 00:14:50.617 --> 00:14:52.697 stuff that Chaz and I are working through now. 00:14:52.817 --> 00:14:55.617 Just painting a very light mystery for a character to solve. 00:14:55.777 --> 00:14:55.937 Mm-hmm. 00:14:57.070 --> 00:15:00.190 To help them to be a little bit more active in the first act. 00:15:00.530 --> 00:15:04.030 But did you like, oh yeah, this connects, or is this kind of new-ish? 00:15:04.530 --> 00:15:08.610 No, I think, I mean, it's certainly terminology and like specifically the way 00:15:08.610 --> 00:15:11.870 it's laid out, especially because a lot of the stuff is in terms of RPG. 00:15:12.090 --> 00:15:15.470 But in terms of someone who's read, yeah, probably hundreds of, 00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:21.310 you know, pulpy paperbacks, I would say, oh yeah, they all deal in this in certain ways. 00:15:21.310 --> 00:15:26.410 There's all this information, and usually they lay a lot of it out for the reader, 00:15:27.270 --> 00:15:29.070 or the viewer in that case. 00:15:29.270 --> 00:15:31.690 And then they also tell you which the characters are aware of. 00:15:31.750 --> 00:15:34.450 And then as you go, sometimes, you know, they'll double back around and be like, 00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:35.750 actually, this thing meant this. 00:15:35.870 --> 00:15:38.750 And sometimes as a reader or a viewer, you're screaming like, 00:15:38.930 --> 00:15:42.150 go behind that door, go behind there, you know. 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:46.670 But the characters need to, because there is more of a risk to them, 00:15:46.790 --> 00:15:48.530 right? Obviously, there's more of a cost. 00:15:49.310 --> 00:15:54.010 Things play out differently. But I think it's an interesting framework or rubric 00:15:54.010 --> 00:15:56.790 for looking at, But especially, you know, when you're reverse engineering a 00:15:56.790 --> 00:16:01.110 mystery, as we kind of are with Wake Up Dead Man, it's a lot more fun to be 00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:03.070 like, there it is, there it is, there it is, there it is. 00:16:03.921 --> 00:16:06.981 And I know I'm like bringing up something else we're going to put in show notes, 00:16:07.081 --> 00:16:09.981 but there was some stuff about like writing node-based plotting, 00:16:10.281 --> 00:16:13.201 which is classic kind of flowchart game design stuff, right? 00:16:13.301 --> 00:16:14.961 Like, I mean, I've done a bunch of that stuff. 00:16:15.041 --> 00:16:18.901 Oh, you said node, not, I heard nerd-based plotting. 00:16:19.601 --> 00:16:24.221 All game design is inherently. Well, I think I ended up reading a lot more of 00:16:24.221 --> 00:16:26.661 this from story perspective than character perspective. 00:16:26.661 --> 00:16:30.921 And I think a lot of that is because I haven't done this in terms of games and 00:16:30.921 --> 00:16:35.061 I haven't done this in thinking of that. it obviously applies to all of the above. 00:16:35.061 --> 00:16:38.721 It's just interesting because the node-based game design stuff actually applies 00:16:38.721 --> 00:16:41.481 to writing mysteries when the stuff i've read 00:16:41.481 --> 00:16:44.581 about writing mysteries where it's like doesn't design your web of 00:16:44.581 --> 00:16:48.321 clues and it's like literally how you design 00:16:48.321 --> 00:16:51.301 a mystery in game design oh that's 00:16:51.301 --> 00:16:54.281 cool uh is very similar to how it's like 00:16:54.281 --> 00:16:57.801 yeah it's the same thing instead of you going from room to room which 00:16:57.801 --> 00:17:00.861 is when you do like a dungeon crawl in a video game it's 00:17:00.861 --> 00:17:04.061 like yeah this is the clues that the character you're designing 00:17:04.061 --> 00:17:06.821 that because you're writing a mystery from the you know 00:17:06.821 --> 00:17:10.141 it's a active there's a little bit more active participation 00:17:10.141 --> 00:17:12.961 in a mystery for an audience i mean there's a 00:17:12.961 --> 00:17:17.701 agatha christie novel i remember which one it centered around bridge and i couldn't 00:17:17.701 --> 00:17:21.061 work out who the killer was without understanding bridge so i got to the end 00:17:21.061 --> 00:17:24.421 of the novel and was really frustrated because i was like i don't know bridge 00:17:24.421 --> 00:17:28.141 this i could have never have worked it out well all the other mystery when i 00:17:28.141 --> 00:17:30.361 was going through my reading mystery novels phase, 00:17:30.561 --> 00:17:35.861 like as a tween age or an early teen, I always wanted to try and guess who the killer was. 00:17:36.041 --> 00:17:39.221 And this one was like, well, fuck you. I never, I will never be able to work 00:17:39.221 --> 00:17:41.921 this one out. And then other people were like, eh, I don't care. 00:17:42.041 --> 00:17:43.261 I just want to see how they solve it. 00:17:43.441 --> 00:17:47.621 Yeah. Some people are along for the ride or the character commentary or the 00:17:47.621 --> 00:17:52.281 banter or the, you know, I'd never done that node based and the dungeon crawler 00:17:52.281 --> 00:17:53.161 thing is quite interesting. 00:17:53.781 --> 00:17:56.481 I'm going to try and steer us back into the homework. 00:17:56.481 --> 00:18:02.321 Eric, just before we dive in, can we reveal some hidden information and talk 00:18:02.321 --> 00:18:03.521 about our key learnings? 00:18:04.781 --> 00:18:11.181 From the future. So I guess the most surprising key learning for me for Wake 00:18:11.181 --> 00:18:17.141 Up Dead Man was around narrative velocity and connecting the idea of if you 00:18:17.141 --> 00:18:21.601 learn information that puts you in danger and danger rewards you with information. 00:18:21.721 --> 00:18:26.001 That's another way about thinking of pushing your characters and pulling your 00:18:26.001 --> 00:18:29.321 characters or putting another way your characters are pulled towards something 00:18:29.321 --> 00:18:33.941 and then that puts them into danger which is a another word for pushing them 00:18:33.941 --> 00:18:40.841 and that you the oscillation between pushing and pull is kind of like my key learning and. 00:18:40.841 --> 00:18:45.281 Building on that i don't actually make this observation in the episode it was 00:18:45.281 --> 00:18:50.221 only listening back from the future that i know that my big breakthrough mentally 00:18:50.221 --> 00:18:54.501 is that when a character is being pushed, 00:18:54.921 --> 00:18:59.741 you can have that you know, the danger escalates when they're, 00:19:00.407 --> 00:19:02.947 they're being pushed and a lot of the stakes can be external, 00:19:03.007 --> 00:19:08.367 but when they're being pulled, you're going to have to work a lot harder on 00:19:08.367 --> 00:19:11.907 the stakes because they want the information and there's going to have to be 00:19:11.907 --> 00:19:14.707 much more cost to that journey. 00:19:14.927 --> 00:19:18.667 Whereas opposed to when they're being pushed by external events, 00:19:18.807 --> 00:19:23.607 be they emotionally external or physically external, that escalating danger 00:19:23.607 --> 00:19:26.607 from learning the information can be much more traditional. 00:19:26.607 --> 00:19:30.027 And I have learned that, especially when we're doing pickups, 00:19:30.107 --> 00:19:32.987 you should not go third because then the other two take your key learnings. 00:19:33.907 --> 00:19:38.547 I will say, though, like the push-pull thing I really enjoyed listening back to. 00:19:38.687 --> 00:19:43.747 I think for me, even, and we talked a bit about, right, writing for screen is 00:19:43.747 --> 00:19:46.967 different than writing for role-playing games because of the visual medium element. 00:19:46.967 --> 00:19:51.727 And I think for me, the other key learning I really have is the way of considering 00:19:51.727 --> 00:19:57.527 your clues as you take your clue and you make it secret and you can hide it. 00:19:57.627 --> 00:19:59.427 And those are three different things. 00:19:59.707 --> 00:20:03.067 And I think being able to visualize that, like we talked about the painting 00:20:03.067 --> 00:20:06.287 and this hanging in front of the safe and then the dust that's on the painting 00:20:06.287 --> 00:20:09.567 and the clue that's in there. I think even just being able to visualize that 00:20:09.567 --> 00:20:14.127 while writing a mystery story like this was really helpful for me. 00:20:14.267 --> 00:20:21.687 And I think it's a great methodology, but it's also a really good visualization of that methodology. 00:20:24.027 --> 00:20:27.147 You're the only one on stage with the Monsignor at the time of his killing. 00:20:29.127 --> 00:20:32.807 You're the only one at that church who hated his guts. The spirit really moved 00:20:32.807 --> 00:20:35.327 him today, huh? So, tell me. 00:20:36.547 --> 00:20:38.107 What the hell happened? 00:20:42.407 --> 00:20:49.587 Everyone thinks I did it. I didn't do it. This goes way beyond normal police work. This is Submarine. 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:55.700 Makes me sick. These kids painting rocket ships all over his sacred resting place. 00:21:57.620 --> 00:22:03.820 So Wake Up Dead Man is Benoit Blanc investigating the murder of a priest. 00:22:04.120 --> 00:22:10.160 And the murder turns into the resurrection question mark of a priest. 00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:14.300 And then it turns into the murder of a grounds person. And then it turns into 00:22:14.300 --> 00:22:16.420 the theft of a priceless jewel. 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:21.940 And then it turns into the backstory of a priest. Is he really who he says he is? 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.180 How far into spoilers are we going to get in this? Which is. 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:30.320 Oh, you know, this is draft zero, Mel. So, so all the way into spoilers. 00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:34.480 Yes, but this is a very recent film. This is only come out a couple months ago. 00:22:34.660 --> 00:22:37.980 So just like, do we want to say who, who, who done it? 00:22:38.020 --> 00:22:40.620 Sure. I mean, let's see if it comes up naturally. 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:41.200 Okay. 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:45.620 So all of the Knives Out movies, so this is the third one, 00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:51.780 starring Benoit Blanc, written, directed by Rian Johnson, all of them have a 00:22:51.780 --> 00:22:56.740 sort of co-detective, someone that Benoit is bringing along with them. 00:22:57.040 --> 00:23:01.160 A very amateur detective, which is its own sort of subgenre. 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:05.380 And I think it's really important in this one that the identifying and describing 00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:09.480 who Father Judd Duplenticy, is that what his name is? 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:14.560 It was very close to duplicity, but also plenty in there. It felt like a very constructed name. 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:20.080 There's almost two here because there is Judd, but there is also, 00:23:20.300 --> 00:23:24.400 which in the other two has been where it's Geraldine, who's the local police 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.480 chief, and she's also trying to solve it along. So there really are two. 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:32.120 Ah, yeah. But it's set in a small town. 00:23:32.320 --> 00:23:40.180 All the suspects are the congregation, the cysts, as Father Judd, 00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:46.740 I think, calls them at some point, the acolytes of this very small Catholic town. 00:23:47.022 --> 00:23:54.942 Congregation. And the victim is Monsignor Wicks, I was about to say Father Wicks, 00:23:55.242 --> 00:24:01.542 played by Josh Brolin, who is a fire and brimstone priest who, 00:24:01.982 --> 00:24:08.302 as the film unravels, expresses a hatred for his congregation that he is deliberately 00:24:08.302 --> 00:24:11.382 whittling down with his fire and brimstone. 00:24:11.682 --> 00:24:18.062 And I just wanted to add that additional context before we dive into the story. 00:24:18.882 --> 00:24:24.682 I'm just, while I have the microphone, I want to make some observations. 00:24:25.202 --> 00:24:31.162 Like Locked Room Murder Mysteries, if they play by the rules of fair play, the audience is... 00:24:31.723 --> 00:24:36.523 Behind the detective, in this case, the Benoit Blanc, right up until Benoit 00:24:36.523 --> 00:24:39.783 Blanc has his denouement, lays it out. 00:24:39.903 --> 00:24:43.723 Behind the discovery, but not the information. 00:24:44.083 --> 00:24:50.063 Correct. We are to be given, by the rules of fair play, we should be able to figure it out. 00:24:50.123 --> 00:24:53.503 We shouldn't have to know the rules of bridge to figure it out. 00:24:53.683 --> 00:24:58.823 To be fair, she does lay out all of the rules and then she puts what cards are 00:24:58.823 --> 00:25:00.803 in everybody's hand in that book, etc. 00:25:00.803 --> 00:25:02.563 Oh, you knew what book I was talking about. 00:25:02.643 --> 00:25:06.383 Oh, yeah, I've read it. But Bridge is a very complicated game. 00:25:06.523 --> 00:25:10.663 She lays out all of the rules and has the detective explain how Bridge works. 00:25:10.723 --> 00:25:12.143 However- I was 13. 00:25:13.943 --> 00:25:18.403 Bridge is also, in my opinion, apologies to my dead grandmother, boring as fuck. 00:25:18.483 --> 00:25:21.263 Bridge is a fucking amazing game and you can all shut the fuck up. 00:25:21.463 --> 00:25:23.623 It's the best card game out there. 00:25:23.983 --> 00:25:28.223 And the complications in Bridge is not the playing, it's the bidding. 00:25:28.223 --> 00:25:31.343 Anyway father this 00:25:31.343 --> 00:25:35.363 this film revels in ideas around 00:25:35.363 --> 00:25:38.103 like you know as all ryan johnson stuff there's a whole 00:25:38.103 --> 00:25:41.063 lot of commentary around the you know the cult 00:25:41.063 --> 00:25:47.883 of personality and charisma and you know polarization and the weaponization 00:25:47.883 --> 00:25:53.643 of outrage and all these other kind of things and what i find fascinating about 00:25:53.643 --> 00:25:58.143 this story and I'm going to ask you both a key question. 00:25:59.257 --> 00:26:03.197 The film has Father Judd, for the first hour, is narrating. 00:26:03.377 --> 00:26:08.617 So he's literally writing a story down and Benoit is reading it. 00:26:08.797 --> 00:26:14.177 But we don't know. Like, it's alluded to, but it's not stated outright at the 00:26:14.177 --> 00:26:15.637 beginning, that that's what's going. 00:26:15.717 --> 00:26:23.837 It is. The opening shot is Benoit reading the paper and cuts to Judd writing it down at the desk. 00:26:23.957 --> 00:26:26.777 But we do not know when we are in that opening shot. 00:26:26.877 --> 00:26:29.877 No, no. Yeah, we don't know when we are in time. 00:26:30.057 --> 00:26:33.857 The script and the movie both hide when we are. It deliberately. 00:26:34.217 --> 00:26:34.917 Yeah, exactly. 00:26:35.217 --> 00:26:39.457 And one hour in, we catch up to that point. We catch up narratively. 00:26:39.537 --> 00:26:44.477 And from that point on, as an audience, we are following Benoit and Judd as 00:26:44.477 --> 00:26:45.917 they experience things. 00:26:46.197 --> 00:26:50.557 Just so quickly, I'm watching it now. We do not cut from the letter to Judd 00:26:50.557 --> 00:26:54.817 at the desk. We go from a close-up on cursive writing, which is hard to read, 00:26:54.857 --> 00:26:57.937 to Judd punching the other priest. 00:26:58.617 --> 00:26:58.797 Sure. 00:26:58.877 --> 00:27:01.917 Yeah. And in the script, it says the room is dark. So essentially, 00:27:02.117 --> 00:27:04.637 I mean, mild swish, we do not know they're in the same room, 00:27:04.717 --> 00:27:08.517 but because Judd is narrating it, we assume he did write it in the past. 00:27:09.837 --> 00:27:13.357 The point being, those two characters, 00:27:13.617 --> 00:27:18.637 those two detectives, Bernard Blanc and Father Judd, have up until we catch 00:27:18.637 --> 00:27:24.477 up with them all the information there's no secrets or clues or push and pull 00:27:24.477 --> 00:27:31.117 from them as characters right they we are just hearing what has happened up until that point. 00:27:31.117 --> 00:27:37.517 No that we as the audience aware of there is a secret that judd is keeping which 00:27:37.517 --> 00:27:42.957 is not revealed until later and maybe even later in the scene i have to remember 00:27:42.957 --> 00:27:45.297 and it's been about a month since I watched it, 00:27:45.597 --> 00:27:51.477 but how he ends up confessing to hiding the bottle. 00:27:51.737 --> 00:27:52.397 The flask. 00:27:52.657 --> 00:27:55.497 Yeah, yeah. The flask. Why'd you do it? 00:27:59.114 --> 00:28:03.674 Better question is, why do I think I could lie to you and get away with it? 00:28:03.954 --> 00:28:06.234 No, no, you didn't lie. I knew you wouldn't. 00:28:07.174 --> 00:28:09.874 You just didn't say the dishonest part out loud. 00:28:13.234 --> 00:28:17.474 When I joined the others outside, the police were just arriving. 00:28:20.154 --> 00:28:24.034 Joined the others outside. So you stayed inside. 00:28:24.494 --> 00:28:29.494 So you were the only person with unobserved access to the utility closet after 00:28:29.494 --> 00:28:31.794 the murder, but before the police searched it. 00:28:33.954 --> 00:28:34.434 Why? 00:28:38.334 --> 00:28:41.474 Why protect him? I didn't do it to protect Wicks. 00:28:43.314 --> 00:28:48.434 I did it to save the people who believed in him just a little disillusionment. Oh, bullshit! 00:28:49.094 --> 00:28:52.834 And in protecting their bubble of belief, you have shielded a killer! 00:28:55.804 --> 00:28:57.484 Where is that flask? 00:28:59.824 --> 00:29:01.884 Right, so he is harboring a secret 00:29:01.884 --> 00:29:06.484 and they play a big deal of him confessing, oh, I did it, I'm the one. 00:29:07.924 --> 00:29:10.764 It's kind of annoying fake out, to be honest. It's probably, 00:29:10.924 --> 00:29:12.284 to me, I liked it the least. 00:29:14.064 --> 00:29:21.964 The broad point I'm trying to get to is Judd is the key suspect for this locked room mystery. 00:29:21.964 --> 00:29:25.684 He's the only one that that was close 00:29:25.684 --> 00:29:28.484 to monsignor wicks he's the 00:29:28.484 --> 00:29:31.844 only one who witnessed it and everything gets explained magically 00:29:31.844 --> 00:29:35.544 how that miracle murder happens 00:29:35.544 --> 00:29:38.564 by the end but judd because he's the 00:29:38.564 --> 00:29:41.884 suspect and because he has a kind of love-hate 00:29:41.884 --> 00:29:44.804 relationship well he hates the parishioners but wants 00:29:44.804 --> 00:29:48.184 to save them wants to bring them the love of jesus he 00:29:48.184 --> 00:29:51.164 feels like he's pushed on this journey as 00:29:51.164 --> 00:29:54.344 a detective and he three times 00:29:54.344 --> 00:29:57.824 throughout the film declares i'm out right 00:29:57.824 --> 00:30:01.784 so he is not chasing the 00:30:01.784 --> 00:30:05.364 information in the same way that bernard is bernard 00:30:05.364 --> 00:30:09.004 has been brought on by the local sheriff geraldine and 00:30:09.004 --> 00:30:13.244 bernard is being pulled whereas 00:30:13.244 --> 00:30:15.884 father judd is being pushed and i 00:30:15.884 --> 00:30:19.084 that is the only point that i wanted to make about 00:30:19.084 --> 00:30:23.384 these two broad characters because they it 00:30:23.384 --> 00:30:28.864 it allows them to interplay with the narrative velocity very well they can choose 00:30:28.864 --> 00:30:34.684 ryan johnson can choose you know which element who which character he wants 00:30:34.684 --> 00:30:39.284 to take charge of any given scene based on the emotional effect that he wants 00:30:39.284 --> 00:30:40.824 to have on the audience the. 00:30:40.824 --> 00:30:46.204 Thing in the murder mystery is the characters know whether or not they killed him, right? 00:30:46.384 --> 00:30:46.484 Yeah. 00:30:46.704 --> 00:30:55.804 So Judd as a character should be acting with the knowledge that he either did or didn't kill Judd. 00:30:56.424 --> 00:30:59.204 Right. And that is equally true of everyone else. 00:30:59.384 --> 00:30:59.564 Yeah. 00:30:59.644 --> 00:31:05.704 And that means every other character knows that each, each person has a potential secret. 00:31:06.264 --> 00:31:10.484 Right. And it's a potential secret. I mean, that's where the suspicion comes from. 00:31:10.604 --> 00:31:14.844 And that's one of the key aspects of the genre is that we have a cast of characters 00:31:14.844 --> 00:31:16.624 that we're clearly interested to do that. 00:31:16.864 --> 00:31:21.704 We are not going to know as suspects, but the other characters will know as suspects as well. 00:31:22.624 --> 00:31:25.624 Minor spoilers here. But in this case, as in some murder mysteries, 00:31:25.864 --> 00:31:29.424 more than one character also knows who else did it. 00:31:29.784 --> 00:31:34.524 So we do have multiple characters with that secret. Like, they don't just know 00:31:34.524 --> 00:31:37.224 I didn't. They know, oh, he or she did. 00:31:38.104 --> 00:31:38.584 Yeah. 00:31:38.764 --> 00:31:43.684 And it's important it's a secret as opposed to it just being hidden because 00:31:43.684 --> 00:31:51.204 it's about the characters trying to use their skills in order to work out who's done it. 00:31:51.204 --> 00:31:56.764 Okay. It is not just Blanc and Judd that are doing that. 00:31:57.004 --> 00:31:59.284 I mean, Martha obviously blames Judd. 00:31:59.284 --> 00:32:02.204 Yeah, and then some characters are trying to work out who did it, 00:32:02.264 --> 00:32:08.124 but other characters are trying to hide who did it, whether it was them or someone else. 00:32:08.204 --> 00:32:12.364 And we don't know which are actively actually trying to figure it out or only 00:32:12.364 --> 00:32:14.364 say they're trying to figure out where they're actually trying to hide it. 00:32:14.444 --> 00:32:16.424 So it does get very sticky. 00:32:16.424 --> 00:32:22.564 So, watching this film through the lens of how does the revealing of information, like, 00:32:23.315 --> 00:32:27.335 So, Stu, when we were laying the foundations for this episode, 00:32:27.495 --> 00:32:31.775 you asked some really key questions that us as writers can use as narrative tools, right? 00:32:32.195 --> 00:32:32.395 Okay. 00:32:33.315 --> 00:32:36.055 Stu's face says, I do not remember these questions. 00:32:37.695 --> 00:32:43.435 So, you asked, are the characters aware of the secret or not? 00:32:43.655 --> 00:32:44.195 Right? 00:32:44.355 --> 00:32:51.395 That is a piece of an important narrative choice. when is the information revealed 00:32:51.395 --> 00:32:53.795 to the character and when does it create danger? 00:32:54.215 --> 00:32:59.335 What are the particular skills of a character that allowed them to obtain the information? 00:32:59.635 --> 00:33:02.695 And then what is the cost of learning the information? 00:33:03.315 --> 00:33:08.195 Wow. I'm like, they're good questions. I wish I reread them before doing my 00:33:08.195 --> 00:33:09.475 whole rant at the beginning. 00:33:09.635 --> 00:33:11.175 Past Stu is very smart. 00:33:11.335 --> 00:33:14.655 Can we just start this whole recording again? 00:33:16.635 --> 00:33:22.255 An hour and 15 minutes in can we just yeah scratch that and go again so. 00:33:22.255 --> 00:33:25.515 What i found fascinating watching this is the almost 00:33:25.515 --> 00:33:28.895 the entire first half of this movie is because 00:33:28.895 --> 00:33:35.655 we're predominantly in father judd's point of view he wants to know who's done 00:33:35.655 --> 00:33:40.695 it and the first half of this movie is ryan ryan johnson playing by the rules 00:33:40.695 --> 00:33:45.535 of fair play and he's laying out all the information that will ultimately give 00:33:45.535 --> 00:33:47.895 us that sweet, sweet payoff. 00:33:48.215 --> 00:33:50.075 From an unreliable narrator. 00:33:50.375 --> 00:33:50.895 Sure. 00:33:50.955 --> 00:33:53.335 That he treats as reliable, which is fun. 00:33:53.515 --> 00:34:00.635 Yeah. But I did not feel that other than who killed Monsignor Wickes, 00:34:01.167 --> 00:34:05.987 Father Judd doesn't actually learn anything, right? 00:34:06.167 --> 00:34:09.807 There are clues that are seeded, right? 00:34:10.147 --> 00:34:12.607 The main one being... 00:34:12.607 --> 00:34:15.487 Sorry, do you mean in the first half of the film he doesn't learn anything or in the whole... 00:34:15.487 --> 00:34:17.667 Yeah, the first half of the film, right? 00:34:17.767 --> 00:34:21.127 Okay. Well, right. He can't learn anything because he's recounting it. 00:34:21.327 --> 00:34:27.207 Yeah. And this is what I meant about the first half being different because he was recounting it. 00:34:27.307 --> 00:34:30.887 Because he is telling us the secrets of all these characters. 00:34:31.167 --> 00:34:36.647 He's saying, here's the doctor. His secret is that his wife and family have left him. 00:34:36.847 --> 00:34:42.707 Here's Martha. Her secret is that she kind of hates everyone with fire and brimstone. 00:34:43.007 --> 00:34:47.667 Here's Samson. He's a former alcoholic. It reveals all the characters and their 00:34:47.667 --> 00:34:49.467 secrets. He's telling it to us. 00:34:49.747 --> 00:34:54.087 All these characters, from a character perspective, they know all these secrets. 00:34:54.427 --> 00:34:57.807 That stuff for the audience is a landmark. That's not a secret. 00:34:57.967 --> 00:34:58.787 Yeah, sure. 00:34:58.787 --> 00:35:05.007 The only other full-time employee was the groundskeeper, Samson, Sam. 00:35:10.127 --> 00:35:15.887 It's Monsignor Wicks, who gives me the strength every day to not go back to the bottle. 00:35:16.907 --> 00:35:23.007 He used to drink too, but he said to me once, if I can stave off that demon, you can. 00:35:24.407 --> 00:35:28.087 And every day it is a struggle, but I have. 00:35:29.891 --> 00:35:37.251 I credit him and my sweet Martha. Your sweet Martha. I'd do anything for her. 00:35:38.671 --> 00:35:43.951 My angel on earth. As far as the church goes, Martha does it all. 00:35:44.311 --> 00:35:48.791 She keeps the books, manages donations, files everything. Files hat. 00:35:49.431 --> 00:35:54.131 She launders the vestments, stocks the supplies, feeds wicks, plays the organ. 00:35:58.251 --> 00:36:01.151 She knew where the bodies were buried but. 00:36:01.151 --> 00:36:03.851 Like in for the most of the first half of 00:36:03.851 --> 00:36:06.831 the film father judd does not learn a new 00:36:06.831 --> 00:36:10.231 piece of information whether it's like a clue 00:36:10.231 --> 00:36:13.751 or even what are the kind of questions he should be asking we 00:36:13.751 --> 00:36:16.811 know retrospectively that benoit is right 00:36:16.811 --> 00:36:20.431 and this is why i want to ask you guys a key question about 00:36:20.431 --> 00:36:24.231 when in the story do you think benoit has actually figured 00:36:24.231 --> 00:36:27.811 it out because that goes to character but before 00:36:27.811 --> 00:36:32.351 i do the first time that judd 00:36:32.351 --> 00:36:39.911 actually learns something in the film that he hadn't known before is when the 00:36:39.911 --> 00:36:44.991 reason for the meeting so i'm going to be quite specific and a little spoilerish 00:36:44.991 --> 00:36:50.151 for the middle half of the of the movie the middle half the sorry the middle part of me why. 00:36:50.151 --> 00:36:51.651 Are we just not spoiling this movie. 00:36:51.651 --> 00:36:56.091 Okay. Yeah. All right. We'll spoil it. But previously in Judd's recounting, 00:36:56.171 --> 00:37:01.291 he said he'd walked in on a meeting of all the suspects and Monsignor Wicks, right? 00:37:02.491 --> 00:37:06.371 I have kept this church. I have fortified it with the truth of God and now the 00:37:06.371 --> 00:37:12.551 betrayal to find my authority and faith and life itself challenged and from 00:37:12.551 --> 00:37:14.011 inside my own sanctuary. 00:37:19.416 --> 00:37:22.756 And then at a certain point one of 00:37:22.756 --> 00:37:25.976 the suspects his name is Cy Draven says not 00:37:25.976 --> 00:37:31.856 only do I know am I going to tell you what this big secret was that that meeting 00:37:31.856 --> 00:37:37.616 was about I have it recorded so it allowed it prompted a an actual flashback 00:37:37.616 --> 00:37:43.296 so that the um the detectives and the audience at the same time could experience it. 00:37:43.416 --> 00:37:48.376 And the secret was that Cy is Monsignor Wicks' son. 00:37:48.636 --> 00:37:53.796 Actually, I was inquiring, not about Judge Prager Group, but about the shadowy 00:37:53.796 --> 00:37:57.916 meeting with Wicks that took place in this room on Palm Sunday. 00:37:58.896 --> 00:38:04.256 What was that meeting actually about? Who wants to go first? 00:38:05.576 --> 00:38:06.556 I'll tell you. 00:38:08.436 --> 00:38:11.596 Cy, hey, wait, wait, wait, hold on there, buddy. Hey, no, no, 00:38:11.596 --> 00:38:15.616 no, no, no. You shut your mouth, you little shit weasel. This isn't your decision. You tell him nothing. 00:38:15.976 --> 00:38:19.816 Hey, say, Father Jack, I promise you that what we talked about that night has 00:38:19.816 --> 00:38:21.316 nothing to do with Wicks killing, okay? 00:38:21.516 --> 00:38:26.216 But it does have to do with things that, if made public, could ruin people in this room. 00:38:26.476 --> 00:38:28.516 I recorded the whole thing. Just hit play. 00:38:31.176 --> 00:38:32.496 No! Oh, no, you're not! 00:38:33.296 --> 00:38:37.896 And not only that, Monsignor Wicks was going to burn all of his congregation. 00:38:37.896 --> 00:38:43.176 He was going to reveal all their dirty laundry in amongst the town. 00:38:43.576 --> 00:38:49.816 I will give my final service a week from today on Easter Sunday. 00:38:51.376 --> 00:38:57.816 And then I will close the doors of this sad little church for good. 00:39:00.776 --> 00:39:04.856 But not before I have destroyed each and every one of you. 00:39:07.395 --> 00:39:10.995 All of those secrets that were not secrets to us that were secrets to the town 00:39:10.995 --> 00:39:13.335 around them, which is why they held them so closely. 00:39:13.495 --> 00:39:20.595 Yeah. But that is the first time in the movie that Judd learns a secret. 00:39:21.075 --> 00:39:25.355 And it's actually volunteered by Psy. He like just comes and tells them. 00:39:25.455 --> 00:39:30.195 And I've literally got here like, why the fuck is Psy revealing this information? 00:39:30.375 --> 00:39:33.735 And it turns out they do explain it after the reveal. 00:39:33.915 --> 00:39:41.775 Psy knows that there's a hidden fortune somewhere. and he wants vernois blanc to find the fortune i. 00:39:41.775 --> 00:39:45.275 Mean that's the reason but also he pathologically cannot help himself. 00:39:45.275 --> 00:39:46.515 Like he. 00:39:46.515 --> 00:39:52.375 Is a i must put every bit of information about myself on the internet to be 00:39:52.375 --> 00:39:54.895 like it is given a character drive as well. 00:39:54.895 --> 00:39:59.375 For sure but what i reveled about this was we were looking through this lens 00:39:59.375 --> 00:40:05.155 of how can secrets and you've got a detective who's a priest who's boss I guess, 00:40:05.235 --> 00:40:08.095 whose senior priest in the parish was murdered, 00:40:08.375 --> 00:40:12.775 whom he hated, whom he's on the internet as saying, I'm going to cut you out like a cancer, 00:40:13.315 --> 00:40:15.435 right? Who is the chief suspect of the police? 00:40:15.555 --> 00:40:18.135 He has all these motivations to find it. 00:40:18.295 --> 00:40:24.155 And from his character's point of view, he only learns a new piece of information 00:40:24.155 --> 00:40:29.095 halfway into the film, something that he didn't know before, right? 00:40:29.095 --> 00:40:35.175 And that, to me, was really great because the first half of the film is riveting. 00:40:35.315 --> 00:40:39.515 It's got narrative drive to it. It's fun. 00:40:39.795 --> 00:40:45.255 But it's all like the relationship is between the filmmaker and the audience. 00:40:45.435 --> 00:40:52.335 It's not about in terms of secrets and clues. It's not revealing information to the characters. 00:40:52.535 --> 00:40:57.315 You're watching them as having lived experiences. Like we as the audience are 00:40:57.315 --> 00:40:58.655 getting lots of information about them. 00:40:58.655 --> 00:41:03.975 Well, in theory, it's also revealing the information to Benoit at the same time as it is to us. 00:41:04.175 --> 00:41:06.435 Sure. But he is filing that away. 00:41:07.072 --> 00:41:11.832 So, when do you two think Benoit figured out that- 00:41:11.832 --> 00:41:13.652 Do you actually have an answer to this? 00:41:13.852 --> 00:41:17.972 I have a strong opinion as to when I know he's figured it out, 00:41:18.012 --> 00:41:20.312 and he may have figured it out sooner, like earlier. 00:41:20.532 --> 00:41:27.052 So, I'll give you- I wrote it down. I watched the film in theaters a few months 00:41:27.052 --> 00:41:30.972 ago, whenever it came out in theaters, and I hadn't seen it since, 00:41:31.112 --> 00:41:31.912 hadn't read the script since. 00:41:31.912 --> 00:41:39.212 And so when you when you asked me, my knee jerk response was that it came when 00:41:39.212 --> 00:41:42.012 he and Judd had the it's not about me moment in the storm. 00:41:42.152 --> 00:41:45.632 And then Benoit has this weird like realization where clearly Judd has said 00:41:45.632 --> 00:41:48.212 something that like triggered him to go, oh, wait a second. 00:41:48.972 --> 00:41:55.072 And now, though, rewatching it, I think that it comes much later. 00:41:55.212 --> 00:41:59.932 But I could not pin. I did not pinpoint watching this time an exact time. 00:41:59.932 --> 00:42:05.372 I pinpointed when I think he made a decision to follow through because you had 00:42:05.372 --> 00:42:08.712 a second half of that question, but I could not pinpoint when I thought he I 00:42:08.712 --> 00:42:11.892 will say this, though. I think he had. 00:42:12.652 --> 00:42:16.872 So there's there's also something that article that we'll post about that that 00:42:16.872 --> 00:42:21.752 Stu said about a player can always suspect the existence of secret information, 00:42:21.992 --> 00:42:23.872 even if their character can't prove it. 00:42:23.872 --> 00:42:28.952 And I think for a while, Benoit had a suspicion about who did it. 00:42:29.192 --> 00:42:31.912 And it wasn't like he was searching for evidence to prove it. 00:42:31.952 --> 00:42:35.732 It was just like, when I find the evidence, I think I can start fitting this 00:42:35.732 --> 00:42:39.792 together based on what I know about these characters. And I have a moment that he did that. 00:42:40.192 --> 00:42:43.192 But I couldn't pinpoint a moment. 00:42:43.752 --> 00:42:44.192 So... 00:42:45.326 --> 00:42:51.566 The reason why I'm asking this is because as soon as Bernois figured out the 00:42:51.566 --> 00:42:55.346 crime, it actually informs his character journey. 00:42:55.646 --> 00:42:56.786 Right? 00:42:56.906 --> 00:43:03.906 Because his choices then matter or are different depending if he's got it solved or not. 00:43:04.106 --> 00:43:09.986 So I think, I guess I will say, I think that he definitively solves it in Nat's basement. 00:43:09.986 --> 00:43:15.626 But I think he knew, I think he had a very good idea before then, 00:43:15.806 --> 00:43:20.226 but it wasn't until Nat's basement that he actually had the solid evidence. 00:43:20.706 --> 00:43:23.126 Sure. Okay. So we're talking about Dr. Nat. 00:43:23.386 --> 00:43:28.926 Nat Sharp. Man, he's to forgive and start living his life and Christ's love 00:43:28.926 --> 00:43:30.246 should be a launching pad for that. 00:43:30.406 --> 00:43:35.386 And instead he's just every day getting more and more angry and bitter against 00:43:35.386 --> 00:43:36.866 his ex-wife against women. 00:43:39.221 --> 00:43:45.801 This is why I'm asking the question, because this story, all of the Knives Out 00:43:45.801 --> 00:43:50.041 stories, while Benoit Blanc is the detective, the character that goes on the 00:43:50.041 --> 00:43:53.221 emotional journey is always the... 00:43:53.981 --> 00:43:54.621 Secondary. 00:43:54.841 --> 00:43:55.961 Aaron's detective, yeah. 00:43:56.121 --> 00:43:56.561 The Watson. 00:43:56.881 --> 00:44:05.741 Yeah, the Dr. Watson, yeah. And so here is the emotional journey of this film belongs to Judd. 00:44:05.741 --> 00:44:09.781 And when Benoit figures out the murder, 00:44:10.061 --> 00:44:16.541 it is important to me, from a storytelling point of view, because it impacts 00:44:16.541 --> 00:44:20.881 how Benoit treats Judd, right? 00:44:21.021 --> 00:44:27.441 And I think he's definitely got it figured out before. I think you're right, Mel. 00:44:27.721 --> 00:44:32.261 I think when he's in the basement, he can prove who it is. 00:44:32.261 --> 00:44:35.881 He knows who it is beforehand because Judd 00:44:35.881 --> 00:44:38.761 is walking into the police station to confess to 00:44:38.761 --> 00:44:42.041 a murder that he hasn't committed right father Judd 00:44:42.041 --> 00:44:45.041 in the story he's been knocked unconscious 00:44:45.041 --> 00:44:48.081 and he wakes up with his hand on a sickle that has 00:44:48.081 --> 00:44:50.821 been buried in one of the 00:44:50.821 --> 00:44:53.701 characters Samson's chest Judd has a 00:44:53.701 --> 00:44:58.021 history of violence he was a boxer who killed someone in the ring Judd thinks 00:44:58.021 --> 00:45:02.081 that he has killed Samson and he 00:45:02.081 --> 00:45:05.081 is walking into the police station to confess to this 00:45:05.081 --> 00:45:08.381 crime and Benoit ushers him 00:45:08.381 --> 00:45:13.501 out of the police station to stop him doing that and this is as I said that 00:45:13.501 --> 00:45:20.861 is the second of three times that Judd is trying to get off the game of trying 00:45:20.861 --> 00:45:27.621 to solve the crime But the reason why Judd goes along with Benoit at that point is Benoit says... 00:45:28.731 --> 00:45:32.851 Nat is in danger and I only hope we're not too late. Please take me to Nat's house. 00:45:33.791 --> 00:45:37.491 I'm turning myself in. No, you are not. I did it. I killed Samson. I'm guilty. 00:45:37.631 --> 00:45:40.471 I have to confess. Listen, listen, listen. You're going to tell me exactly what 00:45:40.471 --> 00:45:44.411 happened. But right now, how do I get to Dr. Nat's house? Dr. Nat? Yes, quickly. 00:45:45.151 --> 00:45:48.651 I regret my stalling. I only hope we're not too late. Now just get down. 00:45:52.031 --> 00:45:56.951 So the only thing that gets Judd to go with Benoit at that point, 00:45:56.951 --> 00:45:59.571 And this is why I'm going back to character, right? 00:45:59.711 --> 00:46:05.291 Because I'm sure Ryan could have created this beautiful, elaborate, 00:46:05.511 --> 00:46:07.971 satisfying mental puzzle box, but... 00:46:09.424 --> 00:46:13.984 Judd doesn't want to solve the crime. He wants to confess, right? 00:46:14.304 --> 00:46:18.824 And Benoit wants to solve the crime. And the way he gets Judd to go along with 00:46:18.824 --> 00:46:22.184 him at that point is to say, Father, sorry, Dr. Nat is in danger. 00:46:22.564 --> 00:46:25.744 And it turns out Dr. Nat was dead. Dr. Nat had been murdered. 00:46:26.044 --> 00:46:29.944 But Benoit knew at that point. He wouldn't have known to go to Dr. 00:46:30.064 --> 00:46:32.524 Nat's house if he hadn't figured it out. 00:46:33.344 --> 00:46:38.744 But I saw that as a process of elimination, that he knew Judd hadn't done it. 00:46:39.424 --> 00:46:39.984 But. 00:46:39.984 --> 00:46:45.184 He had not like that doesn't tell me that he had for sure figured out who had done it he suspected. 00:46:45.184 --> 00:46:48.224 I don't think this is super important to 00:46:48.224 --> 00:46:52.164 this particular thesis and analysis but i don't think benoit as 00:46:52.164 --> 00:46:57.664 soon as they father judd after they discovered nat's dead body father judd once 00:46:57.664 --> 00:47:04.444 again says i am going to confess he leaves benoit at the house dr nat's house 00:47:04.444 --> 00:47:09.864 and he goes to his church summons everyone together and there's the wonderful denouement i. 00:47:09.864 --> 00:47:11.804 Think it's pronounced denouement. 00:47:11.804 --> 00:47:19.424 Okay thank you i don't think benoit learns anything between those two moments and this is where he's. 00:47:19.424 --> 00:47:21.064 Not the main character yeah well. 00:47:21.064 --> 00:47:22.044 You're right let. 00:47:22.044 --> 00:47:25.524 Me rephrase like he's not the protagonist yeah. 00:47:25.524 --> 00:47:30.224 And he's not the point of view character either no i did feel on the second 00:47:30.224 --> 00:47:33.724 watch watching it through this lens this analysis made me enjoy the film less 00:47:33.724 --> 00:47:38.464 because i'm like But Benoit could have told Judd right then and there how everything happened. 00:47:38.624 --> 00:47:39.684 But he didn't know yet. 00:47:39.804 --> 00:47:41.064 What does he learn? 00:47:41.324 --> 00:47:43.324 In Nat's basement? A lot. 00:47:43.624 --> 00:47:50.064 Sure. But walking out of Nat's basement, right, they walk out together, Judd and Benoit. 00:47:50.324 --> 00:47:54.704 And Judd says, I'm leaving. I have to confess to this. We'll excerpt it. 00:47:54.884 --> 00:47:56.284 Right. And Benoit lets him go. 00:47:56.584 --> 00:48:02.084 I killed Samson. I have to do this. I have to do it of my own free will or it won't mean anything. 00:48:03.158 --> 00:48:06.458 Because, and this is why I think I enjoyed it slightly less, 00:48:07.138 --> 00:48:12.198 this is like Ryan wanting to have that big denouement moment in the church. 00:48:12.518 --> 00:48:15.518 And it makes sense for Father Judd to say, I'm going to the church, 00:48:15.698 --> 00:48:18.658 I'm bringing everyone together, and I'm going to confess in front of everyone. 00:48:18.878 --> 00:48:22.938 It makes sense from Father Judd's character perspective. 00:48:23.718 --> 00:48:28.738 Benoit is just like, well, I'm going to let you do this because I want the audience to. 00:48:28.878 --> 00:48:30.358 I actually have a different take. 00:48:30.558 --> 00:48:30.898 Okay. 00:48:30.898 --> 00:48:35.498 I think part of the reason he does it is for Judd. And I think this ties in. 00:48:35.658 --> 00:48:38.878 But part of the reason he does it is he. 00:48:39.758 --> 00:48:44.098 And this is on more of a character level. And this is far more of a character 00:48:44.098 --> 00:48:47.558 and philosophy based mystery than the other two. Right. 00:48:48.798 --> 00:48:56.578 He Benoit knows what Martha will likely do about this. And in. 00:48:56.698 --> 00:48:58.538 It's done. It's done. Yeah. 00:48:59.408 --> 00:49:08.408 And in his mind, that is the proper outcome, both on a justice level and on 00:49:08.408 --> 00:49:10.468 a religious or philosophical level. 00:49:10.468 --> 00:49:15.508 Because of how death by suicide works within the Catholic Church and within 00:49:15.508 --> 00:49:21.188 Martha's personal view of religion. 00:49:21.488 --> 00:49:23.008 Cosmology, maybe. 00:49:23.228 --> 00:49:23.428 Yeah. 00:49:23.428 --> 00:49:29.548 I'm going to give Stu a chance to weigh in and be the judge on this in a second, 00:49:29.768 --> 00:49:38.248 but it made me think Benoit is slightly more of a dick on this, 00:49:38.448 --> 00:49:43.128 analyzing it through this lens, because he lets Judd walk out at that point. 00:49:43.128 --> 00:49:48.568 His choice at that point he has all the information he needs to the point where 00:49:48.568 --> 00:49:52.728 once the everyone's assembled and the police are there and judd's about to confess 00:49:52.728 --> 00:49:56.448 benoit is like interrupting by playing the organ right. 00:49:56.448 --> 00:50:00.488 I think he's still putting pieces together i think he knows the basics and is 00:50:00.488 --> 00:50:04.028 still trying to mentally work out the details. 00:50:04.028 --> 00:50:08.748 Maybe because she confesses certain things but He's leading. 00:50:09.008 --> 00:50:13.008 And he fills stuff in, but he's also letting her fill in information. 00:50:13.968 --> 00:50:19.408 Mr. Belong, you know the truth. I do, yes. 00:50:20.948 --> 00:50:26.928 And you made yourself a fool just now. So that you could do this of your own free will. 00:50:28.308 --> 00:50:31.948 And now you better do it quickly. Thank you. 00:50:33.268 --> 00:50:37.508 Bless me, Father, for I have said it is the week since my last confession. 00:50:38.048 --> 00:50:43.348 I told myself it started with pure intent. 00:50:45.348 --> 00:50:52.288 But the truth is, it started with a lie. Prentice. 00:50:54.488 --> 00:50:54.888 Prentice. 00:50:56.688 --> 00:51:02.808 Sure. But, so on this rewatch, I saw Benoit make an active choice to not say 00:51:02.808 --> 00:51:07.828 to Father Judd, I know who did it, or I'm pretty sure I know who did it, 00:51:07.868 --> 00:51:11.128 I'm pretty sure I know how they did it, and I'm pretty sure you didn't kill Samson. 00:51:11.988 --> 00:51:18.168 So, coming, this is where I intersect, and they'll be good. Two branches, 00:51:18.388 --> 00:51:19.428 I'll deal with this branch now. 00:51:20.828 --> 00:51:24.828 One of the reasons to think about information as landmark, secret, 00:51:24.848 --> 00:51:28.888 and hidden is we're talking about the levels of visibility, right? 00:51:29.128 --> 00:51:34.548 How opaque or transparent, depending on how you choose those metaphors, this information is. 00:51:35.708 --> 00:51:41.368 So if an information is secret, we know that it exists, but we're not sure what that information is. 00:51:41.508 --> 00:51:44.228 It's hidden in the terminology we're using now. 00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:50.780 If we know it's, if it's hidden, it can only be retrieved at a cost, right? 00:51:51.200 --> 00:51:54.840 If it's secret, we need some kind of skill check, right? 00:51:55.040 --> 00:52:00.480 Either way, the purpose of either of those things is to turn it into kind of 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.300 a landmark to reveal the information. 00:52:03.600 --> 00:52:07.380 So I think what Blanc is, he may have suspicions. 00:52:07.740 --> 00:52:09.420 I'm just going to keep on butchering it. 00:52:10.100 --> 00:52:13.000 I'm going to try and come up with as many different pronunciations. 00:52:13.560 --> 00:52:15.120 It's denouement. As possible. 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:20.400 It's my version of, my name is Craig Mazin, is going to be just mispronouncing, dinamint. 00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:27.840 That is the equivalent of his skill check in order to make sure that the information 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:32.400 is no longer, he may suspect something is a secret, he may know, 00:52:32.540 --> 00:52:34.400 but he needs to bring it to light. 00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:40.520 That is the, it's not an ad ignoresis because it's not about knowledge, 00:52:40.560 --> 00:52:44.200 but it is gnosis, right? It's the revealing of knowledge. 00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:48.620 And I think that's what that beat and performance is about, 00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:53.760 is about both for the audience and for the character, making a go from this 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:59.300 is a suspicion of who I know to, oh, I don't actually need to go and this is 00:52:59.300 --> 00:53:00.860 not going to become an episode of Law and Order. 00:53:01.060 --> 00:53:04.580 Though I now really would love a Knives Out Law and Order. 00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:10.480 I want a Knives Out Muppets first. But I will say that Benoit is also very aware 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:11.700 that he's in a mystery film, 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:16.260 and a mystery film convention demands that he get everyone in a room and then 00:53:16.260 --> 00:53:20.800 try to make them confess without spilling the beans too early. 00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:24.880 It's about revealing the information. The second branch, which we don't have 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:29.380 to do quite immediately, but I think it's going to be a really useful exercise 00:53:29.380 --> 00:53:31.060 and may help us with the future episodes, 00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:36.240 is I actually want to talk through the plotting around Judd, 00:53:36.805 --> 00:53:42.125 right in the context of those three five things that i asked that were really 00:53:42.125 --> 00:53:46.065 insightful that i can't remember and can't even find on the discord so maybe 00:53:46.065 --> 00:53:48.765 chas type them out and then deleted my message i'll. 00:53:48.765 --> 00:53:52.025 Put them into the zoom chat i type them out um. 00:53:52.025 --> 00:53:58.685 I mean like this is good discussion around key moments but in the end if we're 00:53:58.685 --> 00:54:02.685 plotting right like i mean we're reverse engineering, 00:54:03.225 --> 00:54:06.165 a mystery that already exists, someone's done the hard work, 00:54:06.285 --> 00:54:12.785 but in a weird, but like there is a way that you can do this on a, on a, on a board, right? 00:54:12.885 --> 00:54:15.385 That if I'm trying to apply this, whatever. 00:54:16.351 --> 00:54:22.891 What does Judd know? And what's really interesting is what we perceive, 00:54:23.131 --> 00:54:27.511 what we've talked about as character secrets are actually landmarks at the beginning of film, 00:54:27.771 --> 00:54:32.991 of the film for Judd and the audience in terms of the, you know, alcoholic, 00:54:33.351 --> 00:54:36.851 fire and brimstone, all those character backstories are effectively landmarks 00:54:36.851 --> 00:54:38.791 both for the audience and Judd. 00:54:38.891 --> 00:54:41.751 Because this film is actually, from a narrative point of view, 00:54:41.971 --> 00:54:47.271 quite complex because the story coming back to our voiceover episode where in 00:54:47.271 --> 00:54:51.091 time is the voiceover coming from it's coming from the middle of the film so 00:54:51.091 --> 00:54:55.191 judd the narrator has more information than the judd we're seeing. 00:54:55.891 --> 00:54:59.171 Experiencing it but it does which actually 00:54:59.171 --> 00:55:02.151 makes the plotting somewhat more difficult because he's 00:55:02.151 --> 00:55:05.131 acting on knowledge that without the knowledge 00:55:05.131 --> 00:55:08.271 that future judd has but it's it's 00:55:08.271 --> 00:55:11.891 kind of colored for it right and then the interesting thing is related 00:55:11.891 --> 00:55:14.771 to danger and stakes right because 00:55:14.771 --> 00:55:17.591 there's these definitely these moments which we've talked about that judd is 00:55:17.591 --> 00:55:20.331 like i'm out because that's him reacting to 00:55:20.331 --> 00:55:24.711 danger this is getting too dangerous for him oh we don't have to do that exercise 00:55:24.711 --> 00:55:29.531 quite immediately but i think kind of going through the key beats of him judd 00:55:29.531 --> 00:55:34.571 learning everything he can until he can no longer which is basically him coming 00:55:34.571 --> 00:55:37.611 to confess is that He is no longer capable of solving, 00:55:37.971 --> 00:55:42.271 you know, taking the hidden and making it a landmark. 00:55:42.511 --> 00:55:46.391 He can no longer take the hidden and reveal that information and needs Benoit 00:55:46.391 --> 00:55:51.871 to do his deniment in order to have that process, right? 00:55:52.731 --> 00:55:56.311 I've got an answer to one of your questions, but I think it would be good to 00:55:56.311 --> 00:55:59.831 put it in the context. So interrupt me as we go along. 00:56:00.331 --> 00:56:02.491 But anytime. I don't need an excuse. 00:56:02.751 --> 00:56:07.271 So Judd has come to be a priest with this parish. 00:56:07.411 --> 00:56:11.651 He's making observations about all the characters and their relationships. 00:56:12.971 --> 00:56:16.971 He lays down the gauntlet with Monsignor Wicks. 00:56:18.171 --> 00:56:24.571 And it was on Palm Sunday that I finally broke. and then twice in the shower 00:56:24.571 --> 00:56:28.811 this week doing that thing I told you about where I hold my hand upside down? 00:56:30.611 --> 00:56:32.751 Five Our Fathers, five Hail Marys. 00:56:34.891 --> 00:56:39.551 Well, we're at nine months now, Judd. How are you enjoying it here? 00:56:39.651 --> 00:56:43.071 Are you breaking down some walls? 00:56:46.971 --> 00:56:50.431 Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. It's been a week since my last confession. 00:56:54.531 --> 00:57:00.351 I betrayed a fellow priest's privacy. I know that Martha keeps her medical bills 00:57:00.351 --> 00:57:02.311 filed in the office, so... 00:57:02.831 --> 00:57:03.951 I went through them. 00:57:05.031 --> 00:57:08.951 I learned you had a radical prostatectomy five years ago, making you physically 00:57:08.951 --> 00:57:10.911 incapable of an erection. 00:57:13.551 --> 00:57:18.671 I can handle whatever this is. For the past nine months, I've seen the way you 00:57:18.671 --> 00:57:21.071 tend this flock, and I don't like it. 00:57:21.831 --> 00:57:24.291 You don't like it? No, Monsignor, I don't. 00:57:26.171 --> 00:57:31.451 You're poisoning this church. And I'll do whatever it takes to save it. 00:57:43.718 --> 00:57:47.758 And then Monsignor Wicks is killed. And to me, 00:57:47.878 --> 00:57:55.058 the first kind of choice that Judd is presented with vis-a-vis the mystery is 00:57:55.058 --> 00:58:00.258 when Benoit comes and introduces himself. 00:58:00.518 --> 00:58:03.738 So initially, we all know who Benoit Blanc is. 00:58:04.018 --> 00:58:09.718 And in that first introduction, and Judd has no idea. And it's revealed that Benoit is... 00:58:10.238 --> 00:58:14.598 No, he knows who he is. Oh, oh, oh. So when he knows his name, 00:58:14.718 --> 00:58:18.358 he knows who he is in pop culture, but he doesn't know who he is when he sees his face. 00:58:18.718 --> 00:58:21.618 Correct. Because it's a reveal that Geraldine is- All right. 00:58:21.738 --> 00:58:26.138 So I'm going to intersect because we're actually getting into somewhere that 00:58:26.138 --> 00:58:29.518 I can't believe it's taken us 15 minutes to get to. 00:58:30.018 --> 00:58:35.338 Hopefully our key learnings flash forward helps explain. What is the difference 00:58:35.338 --> 00:58:36.558 between a secret and a clue? 00:58:36.758 --> 00:58:37.238 I can't. 00:58:37.692 --> 00:58:40.732 Is it a useful distinction? And if it is a useful distinction, 00:58:41.052 --> 00:58:44.472 how do we make the distinction in order for it to be useful? 00:58:44.672 --> 00:58:47.772 Yeah. I mean, in a mystery—and I think also let's talk about it specifically 00:58:47.772 --> 00:58:49.892 within this context, this mystery context. 00:58:50.052 --> 00:58:51.572 Yeah, yeah. I think this is where it comes up. 00:58:51.672 --> 00:58:56.192 The difference between a secret and a clue is something that at least all of 00:58:56.192 --> 00:58:59.432 the main characters and the audience know, which is, you know, 00:58:59.472 --> 00:59:01.212 the facts of the cases, Judd has laid them out. 00:59:01.312 --> 00:59:06.172 And a secret is something like whodunit. or the fact that Judd messed the things 00:59:06.172 --> 00:59:12.992 that only one character knows and that the other characters are attempting to 00:59:12.992 --> 00:59:15.432 figure out. And I think that's a huge difference. 00:59:15.732 --> 00:59:22.432 So maybe the secret is the information. The clue is the representation leading 00:59:22.432 --> 00:59:24.852 you to the information. Like it's the tangible. 00:59:25.512 --> 00:59:29.692 It can be. Sometimes a clue is. Go ahead, Jez. 00:59:29.692 --> 00:59:37.172 Oh, for me, the clue is a pointer, and then the information is the payoff or the reversal. 00:59:37.392 --> 00:59:42.052 But a clue doesn't always lead to the secrets. It may mislead you, 00:59:42.092 --> 00:59:43.672 or the secret might come out of nowhere. 00:59:43.892 --> 00:59:47.212 Like, the clue doesn't always lead to the secret, but it always leads to something. 00:59:47.612 --> 00:59:50.172 Well, not always. There's one moment. 00:59:50.172 --> 00:59:54.112 It could lead to a character action that then ends up going nowhere or is a 00:59:54.112 --> 00:59:58.912 dead end, but it leads to something happening, or it leads to someone attempting to find out a secret. 00:59:58.912 --> 01:00:03.292 So I'm going to use something Mel said that was really smart because all we're 01:00:03.292 --> 01:00:04.872 doing is telling each other, well. 01:00:04.992 --> 01:00:06.332 Past Mel. Yay. 01:00:06.672 --> 01:00:11.532 Yeah. Was that you used the analogy of like, oh, there's a painting on a wall. There's a landmark. 01:00:12.132 --> 01:00:18.072 But then you move the painting and then there's a safe. And then what's hidden. But is that a safe? 01:00:18.072 --> 01:00:19.272 The safe has been hidden. 01:00:19.512 --> 01:00:23.292 The safe has been hidden. But now it's revealed. And therefore what's in it 01:00:23.292 --> 01:00:27.032 becomes a secret. Because we don't know what it is, but we know it's available. 01:00:27.032 --> 01:00:30.392 It was always a secret, but we never even knew. We didn't always know it was 01:00:30.392 --> 01:00:33.852 there, but it was always a secret. Some of the characters might have known the safe was there. 01:00:34.072 --> 01:00:38.052 Clearly, someone had to because they put something inside it at some point. So it was a secret. 01:00:38.870 --> 01:00:40.410 But we didn't always know it existed. 01:00:40.630 --> 01:00:45.550 A clue would be, oh, there's a little bit of dust not there. 01:00:45.550 --> 01:00:51.690 And it's telling us that there is something there, that this landmark is actually 01:00:51.690 --> 01:00:53.970 got something behind it. Right. 01:00:54.150 --> 01:00:59.770 So I'm just using it as a metaphor because I think this stuff's a little bit amorphous. 01:01:00.030 --> 01:01:04.470 Right. Like we're still finding our way through the language to make it useful. 01:01:04.470 --> 01:01:07.710 But for me, the clue is like either the relapse. 01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:10.470 I think dust as a clue is great because there might be eight pictures in the 01:01:10.470 --> 01:01:13.150 room. How do you know which one of them is actually meaningful? 01:01:13.590 --> 01:01:19.250 Yes. So the clue is, you know, as Chaz says, it's the pointer, right? 01:01:19.450 --> 01:01:22.750 But it's kind of something from a plot point of view. What is the clue that 01:01:22.750 --> 01:01:25.370 enable creates that kind of character velocity? 01:01:25.990 --> 01:01:31.050 So it may indicate, they may know that there is a secret, but it could lead them to what is hidden. 01:01:31.390 --> 01:01:35.950 It could lead them to finding the key that unlocks the door, 01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:38.670 right? It's part of the path. 01:01:38.990 --> 01:01:42.090 I think it is useful, though, thinking about it, because when you're talking 01:01:42.090 --> 01:01:45.350 about, are they aware of the secret or what's hidden? 01:01:45.590 --> 01:01:50.670 Can I use an example from this film, right, that they do so well? 01:01:51.230 --> 01:01:59.290 So, at a certain point, the murder weapon is a wolf head from a lamp in a bar. 01:02:00.312 --> 01:02:07.572 And Benoit is in the bar and he's looking at a photo of the bar, within the bar. 01:02:08.712 --> 01:02:14.292 And what Benoit notices is that there were two lamps and two wolf heads. 01:02:14.352 --> 01:02:20.732 And that's at a certain point early in the film where he kind of starts to figure 01:02:20.732 --> 01:02:23.972 out how the murder has been conducted. 01:02:24.452 --> 01:02:29.412 But none of us, the audience, I mean, I certainly didn't see it the first time around. 01:02:29.412 --> 01:02:33.812 Most of the audience doesn't see it and neither does Father Judd who looks at 01:02:33.812 --> 01:02:39.512 the photo and sees that there is a doctor's satchel sitting by the bar. 01:02:40.472 --> 01:02:46.092 And when Father Judd points at the satchel on the second watch because I was looking for it. 01:02:47.044 --> 01:02:52.104 I saw Benoit's reaction to that, where Benoit performs, oh no, 01:02:52.204 --> 01:02:53.884 that's not what I was talking about at all. 01:02:54.144 --> 01:02:54.544 Right? 01:02:54.624 --> 01:02:57.364 But on my first watch, I missed all of that. So again, 01:02:57.944 --> 01:03:03.644 Ryan and like, Benoit is picking up on things as a character that are clues 01:03:03.644 --> 01:03:08.964 that have not been pointers, have not been clues for the audience necessarily, 01:03:09.264 --> 01:03:13.444 until they're plants for the audience and they're clues for Benoit. 01:03:13.444 --> 01:03:17.424 So to my mind it all comes back to intention. 01:03:17.424 --> 01:03:20.764 Okay so from a writing perspective then 01:03:20.764 --> 01:03:23.904 what do we call the okay the wolf's 01:03:23.904 --> 01:03:27.564 head right that is a murder weapon then becomes 01:03:27.564 --> 01:03:30.624 this significant part of this scene that we 01:03:30.624 --> 01:03:35.604 don't even quite realize until later was what ben was referring to right what 01:03:35.604 --> 01:03:39.784 do we call the fact that on the first page of the script while judd is talking 01:03:39.784 --> 01:03:43.944 he starts talking about wolves and he starts talking about with like what is 01:03:43.944 --> 01:03:50.324 that in screenwriting it's it's it foreshadowing is it a hint so that's of a clue um yeah. 01:03:50.324 --> 01:03:56.364 Foreshadowing i mean it's it's theme it's what i think stew referred to as pants or underpinning. 01:03:56.364 --> 01:03:57.724 It makes yep the. 01:03:57.724 --> 01:04:00.984 Wolf it makes the film feel like a cohesive whole. 01:04:00.984 --> 01:04:05.664 I like underpinning more than theme because i think theme is grace and redemption 01:04:05.664 --> 01:04:08.064 and all that in this thing. 01:04:08.064 --> 01:04:14.784 Yeah yeah but but to me it is there is one so for me i use theme more as a like 01:04:14.784 --> 01:04:16.724 a philosophical argument. 01:04:16.724 --> 01:04:17.624 Yeah yeah and. 01:04:17.624 --> 01:04:24.044 The very early philosophical argument is is christ's is following christ about 01:04:24.044 --> 01:04:27.664 fighting or is it about embracing we. 01:04:27.664 --> 01:04:32.944 Need fighters today but to fight the world, not ourselves. 01:04:33.444 --> 01:04:38.184 A priest is a shepherd. The world is a wolf. No. 01:04:40.838 --> 01:04:45.698 I don't believe that, Father, respectfully. You start fighting wolves, 01:04:45.698 --> 01:04:48.538 and before you know it, everyone you don't understand is a wolf. 01:04:49.678 --> 01:04:52.438 I still got that fighting instinct, and I gave into it today, 01:04:52.538 --> 01:04:56.058 but Christ came to heal the world, not fight it. I believe that. 01:04:57.074 --> 01:04:58.574 This, not this, you know? 01:04:59.294 --> 01:05:01.014 Inside you, there are two wolves. 01:05:01.234 --> 01:05:05.214 Right? Not fists, hugs, right? Like that gets repeated throughout. 01:05:05.694 --> 01:05:12.874 And the wolves is another metaphor for fists rather than sheep. 01:05:13.114 --> 01:05:18.794 So do you think that it is more likely that even subconsciously that some viewers 01:05:18.794 --> 01:05:21.934 might have picked up on that because, you know, deep in the back of their head, 01:05:22.074 --> 01:05:23.234 this thing has come up before? 01:05:23.334 --> 01:05:28.374 Oh, definitely. That's the whole point. Yeah. This is why it's pants or underpinning or landmarks. 01:05:29.794 --> 01:05:31.294 Yeah. So there it is. 01:05:31.734 --> 01:05:35.654 Yeah. Underpants? What? Did I not make it? Maybe it should be underpants. 01:05:35.854 --> 01:05:37.694 It's got to hold everything together. 01:05:41.214 --> 01:05:47.294 You were trying to find an alliteration. It had to start with a P or had prominently have a P in it. 01:05:48.074 --> 01:05:49.854 Oh, my underpants have a P in it. 01:05:52.614 --> 01:05:53.994 I've got an old man bladder. 01:05:57.734 --> 01:06:00.694 But in terms of like doctor uh 01:06:00.694 --> 01:06:06.394 sorry father judd's character journey through this in relation to the secrets 01:06:06.394 --> 01:06:15.574 and and clues is at first father judd goes along with bernois offer to to go 01:06:15.574 --> 01:06:20.254 and find out who the killer is because he knows. 01:06:20.254 --> 01:06:20.854 It's not him. 01:06:20.854 --> 01:06:23.554 Well he knows it's not him but i don't think it's about 01:06:23.554 --> 01:06:26.954 him i think he feels like rage against whoever's 01:06:26.954 --> 01:06:29.974 done it and wants to find them and that's 01:06:29.974 --> 01:06:32.934 a good character beat and then the first time 01:06:32.934 --> 01:06:36.374 he hops off is after this incredible scene in 01:06:36.374 --> 01:06:41.234 the movie where judd i got really pissed off at this he pulls out a piece of 01:06:41.234 --> 01:06:46.334 paper at a point where they've exhausted the mystery and says remind me to file 01:06:46.334 --> 01:06:51.194 this and benoit says file it and he looks so open and And there's a clue in 01:06:51.194 --> 01:06:53.534 it. And I was just like, fuck, man. 01:06:53.794 --> 01:06:56.674 Like that totally worked for me on first viewing and second viewing, 01:06:56.814 --> 01:06:59.154 I'm like, how fucking contrived is that? But. 01:06:59.574 --> 01:07:01.774 Remind me to follow this. Follow that. 01:07:02.676 --> 01:07:06.576 It doesn't make sense. I know. An $80 million fortune. 01:07:06.836 --> 01:07:11.836 But if Eve's apple is the fortune and it's not a pile of cash in a Swiss account somewhere, what is it? 01:07:13.516 --> 01:07:18.796 What? They must have misprinted the date on this. It says the crypt opening 01:07:18.796 --> 01:07:20.556 thing was ordered last Wednesday. 01:07:21.696 --> 01:07:22.736 I can't be right. 01:07:24.836 --> 01:07:28.056 Who had pre-ordered burial equipment for a man who isn't dead? 01:07:29.756 --> 01:07:34.156 In pursuit of that clue judd offers 01:07:34.156 --> 01:07:39.216 counseling to a random woman that he calls on the phone and it's this beautiful 01:07:39.216 --> 01:07:45.476 beautiful performed scene an emotional scene and at the end of it judd is finding 01:07:45.476 --> 01:07:51.376 the killer is your game finding the killer is not about christ love what finding 01:07:51.376 --> 01:07:53.356 Being the killer is not why I'm here. 01:08:22.386 --> 01:08:27.766 You felt guilt for taking a laugh. And the church, it offered you a place to 01:08:27.766 --> 01:08:30.986 hide and a clear method to give you a sense of absolution. 01:08:31.566 --> 01:08:34.346 The guy I killed in the ring, I hated him. 01:08:35.046 --> 01:08:38.866 I remember, I knew he was in trouble, and I kept going and going until I felt 01:08:38.866 --> 01:08:40.166 him break. It wasn't an accident. 01:08:40.406 --> 01:08:44.266 I killed him with hate in my heart. There's no hiding from that. There's no solving it. 01:08:44.586 --> 01:08:48.386 God didn't hide me or fix me. He loves me when I'm guilty. 01:08:48.586 --> 01:08:52.826 That's what I should be doing for these people, not this whodunit game. Oh, no, wait a minute. 01:08:53.766 --> 01:08:57.626 And at that point, he hops off. He stops looking for clues. 01:08:57.746 --> 01:09:02.786 And that's when he gets kind of suckered back in by... He gets pushed. 01:09:03.246 --> 01:09:08.146 Sorry, no. Yes, he gets pushed in terms of narrative velocity by... 01:09:09.263 --> 01:09:13.443 Monsignor Wick's seemingly coming back from the dead, right? 01:09:13.583 --> 01:09:17.883 He is no longer pulling at the mystery. 01:09:18.023 --> 01:09:25.383 He gets pushed back into the resurrection, the mistaken belief that he's killed someone. 01:09:25.743 --> 01:09:28.023 All these things start happening. 01:09:28.303 --> 01:09:30.263 He gets wrongs manned back into it. 01:09:30.463 --> 01:09:36.243 Yeah. All these things start happening to Father Judd, not him looking for the mystery. 01:09:36.483 --> 01:09:41.003 So, two observations. You said he's not interested in finding the killer, 01:09:41.163 --> 01:09:44.043 but what he is interested in is confession. 01:09:44.283 --> 01:09:47.803 And confession is about the revelation of secrets. 01:09:48.123 --> 01:09:48.523 Yes. 01:09:48.703 --> 01:09:54.663 Right. And it's important in coming back to your observation about the end sequence 01:09:54.663 --> 01:10:00.923 in church that he takes her last confession, right? The last revelation of the secrets. 01:10:01.163 --> 01:10:06.523 So they're motivated to deal with the revelation of hidden information. 01:10:06.523 --> 01:10:08.603 I'm trying to find terminology we haven't used. 01:10:09.063 --> 01:10:15.323 But he's still partly driven by revelation of information about people revealing. 01:10:15.703 --> 01:10:19.303 But in relation to sin and not secrets is really. 01:10:19.803 --> 01:10:21.783 Are you talking about Father Judd? 01:10:22.183 --> 01:10:22.983 Father Judd. 01:10:23.123 --> 01:10:30.203 I would dispute that because I don't think Father Judd's stand for embracing 01:10:30.203 --> 01:10:36.903 and forgiving Martha, being a vessel for forgiveness and in turn encouraging Martha to forgive, 01:10:37.926 --> 01:10:43.606 The harlot whore, not even going to explain what that is, but watch the film and you'll understand. 01:10:43.846 --> 01:10:49.346 He is a vessel for forgiveness. He is not trying to open up a secret. 01:10:50.246 --> 01:10:56.906 He is trying to get Martha to change. All the information is on the table at that point. 01:10:57.586 --> 01:11:04.606 Benoit is encouraging the opening up of secrets and the reveal of secrets, 01:11:04.866 --> 01:11:09.706 but not Father Judd. is my feeling about it. 01:11:09.926 --> 01:11:16.086 So, Mel, you've written in Zoom chat, and so I'm going to throw to you that 01:11:16.086 --> 01:11:18.086 you say the denouement is about grace. 01:11:18.506 --> 01:11:24.046 And I agree with you because Benoit was about to point the finger at Martha, 01:11:24.286 --> 01:11:26.726 and we've spoiled it. So, Martha, killer. 01:11:27.846 --> 01:11:34.126 Others are involved. It's elaborate. There's still joy if we've spoiled Wake Up Dead Man. 01:11:34.786 --> 01:11:39.966 He's about to point the finger at her and he chooses not to because of grace. 01:11:39.966 --> 01:11:43.066 Not grace the person grace the 01:11:43.066 --> 01:11:46.006 because there is of course someone named grace faith hope 01:11:46.006 --> 01:11:49.246 charity grace you know all the names in this are very 01:11:49.246 --> 01:11:52.666 explicitly referential to um the 01:11:52.666 --> 01:11:55.666 bible by the way like all of them and it's 01:11:55.666 --> 01:11:59.226 he has a quote unquote moment of damascus moment where 01:11:59.226 --> 01:12:02.866 you know the sun comes through in the cinematography but he chooses 01:12:02.866 --> 01:12:05.746 in the denouement to have grace because he has seen 01:12:05.746 --> 01:12:09.186 judd demonstrate it multiple times and for judd's sake 01:12:09.186 --> 01:12:12.286 he decides to give grace and 01:12:12.286 --> 01:12:15.266 it ends up giving grace to martha in i think 01:12:15.266 --> 01:12:20.886 i mean you called him a dick i would say he's just simply um practical pragmatic 01:12:20.886 --> 01:12:28.726 but knowing that it will allow judd and the community to be able to move forward 01:12:28.726 --> 01:12:34.226 giving her that grace in a way that it wouldn't if he had publicly denounced her at that moment. 01:12:34.426 --> 01:12:36.446 My revelation came from... 01:12:37.591 --> 01:12:42.591 From Father Judd. His example to have grace. 01:12:45.271 --> 01:12:46.931 Grace for my enemy. 01:12:50.811 --> 01:12:52.211 Grace for the broken. 01:12:54.411 --> 01:12:58.371 Grace for those who deserve it the least. 01:13:00.491 --> 01:13:01.611 But who need it the most. 01:13:05.900 --> 01:13:10.380 I mean, talking about the character journeys, right? 01:13:11.460 --> 01:13:16.760 Bernard Blanc states early on how much he loves the denouement. We'll excerpt it. 01:13:17.040 --> 01:13:17.260 Yep. 01:13:17.480 --> 01:13:21.860 I'm incapable of not solving a crime. That moment of checkmate. 01:13:22.780 --> 01:13:26.340 When I take the stage and unravel my opponent's web. 01:13:27.920 --> 01:13:30.300 Oh, you'll see. It's fun. Great. 01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:36.420 That moment where he unravels it all. And I've mentioned how Benoit Blanc has 01:13:36.420 --> 01:13:39.580 brought it about, that he can have the theatricality of the denouement. 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:44.540 And then when he's about to take it, he confesses in front of the internet, 01:13:44.540 --> 01:13:51.500 I cannot solve this case, to give Father Judd grace, to give Martha grace, 01:13:51.680 --> 01:13:54.300 to the point where he gets owned. 01:13:54.300 --> 01:13:59.620 And to give Martha specifically an opportunity to get last rites because he 01:13:59.620 --> 01:14:04.880 sees what's happened to her, that she has already taken the poison. 01:14:05.100 --> 01:14:09.960 And he knows he does not believe in religion. He does not believe in anything 01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:11.320 that would be a mortal sin. 01:14:11.460 --> 01:14:15.960 But he knows Martha believes that death by suicide is a mortal sin. 01:14:16.100 --> 01:14:19.480 So even though he doesn't believe it, he chooses to respect her in that moment 01:14:19.480 --> 01:14:24.000 and allow her to get last rites, which would not have happened had he accused 01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:25.920 her. that she would have been arrested, she would have been taken away. 01:14:26.020 --> 01:14:26.280 Sure. 01:14:26.440 --> 01:14:30.920 And he also then allows Judd to have that moment and to, I think, 01:14:31.300 --> 01:14:35.060 re-familiarize himself with how good of a priest he is. 01:14:35.220 --> 01:14:38.440 And that is a gift to him after his moment of doubt. 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.000 But I also believe that this film somewhat, 01:14:42.952 --> 01:14:46.412 stupendously. The Bernouin Blanc at the beginning of this film would not have 01:14:46.412 --> 01:14:48.412 offered Martha that option. 01:14:48.572 --> 01:14:52.012 No, it's only because of all the things he's seen from Judd. 01:14:52.132 --> 01:14:52.532 Yes. 01:14:52.872 --> 01:14:57.612 Absolutely, he would not have done this any time before. I think that moment 01:14:57.612 --> 01:15:00.012 in the storm with Judd was a real turning point for him. 01:15:00.132 --> 01:15:01.152 The road to Damascus. 01:15:01.672 --> 01:15:07.472 But he certainly would not have done it before at the beginning of the film. Absolutely not. No way. 01:15:07.712 --> 01:15:11.032 So, Stu, do you have any other observations from Wake Up Deme? 01:15:11.212 --> 01:15:17.992 Well, I come back to my like, this is an incredibly complex film and we've been 01:15:17.992 --> 01:15:20.052 talking about it for an hour. 01:15:20.532 --> 01:15:24.912 Hang in there, listener. I think we have less to say about side effects and shrinking. 01:15:26.412 --> 01:15:29.512 Well, I think that like in the end, we're talking about plotting. 01:15:29.772 --> 01:15:33.612 A basic question is which character coming back to my timeline observation, 01:15:33.912 --> 01:15:37.092 which Judd are we following in the first hour? 01:15:37.272 --> 01:15:43.492 Is it the Judd of the voiceover or is it the Judd in the visuals, 01:15:43.912 --> 01:15:49.092 like the Judd in the past or the Judd in the kind of present time, right? 01:15:49.092 --> 01:15:52.972 Who is the main character in terms of plotting that you're thinking about? 01:15:53.192 --> 01:15:57.652 I genuinely think that you could, and the reliability of him as a narrator is 01:15:57.652 --> 01:16:01.072 very sticky, especially because of what happens in the very last three minutes 01:16:01.072 --> 01:16:03.792 where he tells you something you're seeing that's explicitly not true, 01:16:03.912 --> 01:16:06.092 which is the first time we've really seen that happened. 01:16:06.312 --> 01:16:10.852 I genuinely think you could do an entire episode on that question you just asked. 01:16:11.052 --> 01:16:17.032 Like, that is a very thorny, sticky question because of how complicated this 01:16:17.032 --> 01:16:19.672 is, not even necessarily on a plot, but on a character level. 01:16:20.197 --> 01:16:23.557 So on some level, we're like, oh, let's do a murder mystery first. 01:16:23.557 --> 01:16:27.097 It's the most obvious example of this mystery stuff. 01:16:27.217 --> 01:16:31.097 But actually, what I come to is it's actually the worst example to go first. 01:16:31.277 --> 01:16:36.597 I think even because Knives Out is much more, it's much less a murder mystery. 01:16:36.777 --> 01:16:40.137 It's less interested in that, that it's interested in a lot of other things. 01:16:40.337 --> 01:16:42.017 And that's kind of where we got hung up. 01:16:42.197 --> 01:16:42.297 Yeah. 01:16:42.437 --> 01:16:45.297 Like the complexity is part of the pleasure of the film. 01:16:45.637 --> 01:16:45.857 Yeah. 01:16:46.097 --> 01:16:50.017 Of course. for this potentially just reading the script we could have done something 01:16:50.017 --> 01:16:55.457 like sparking cyanide which is like here are eight paper cutouts and a detective 01:16:55.457 --> 01:16:59.517 who comes in who's also a paper cutout and you know ta-da but. 01:16:59.517 --> 01:17:01.257 But i agree with you sue because. 01:17:01.257 --> 01:17:04.697 I want to come to the plotting stuff 01:17:04.697 --> 01:17:07.517 around did they like in the end it's 01:17:07.517 --> 01:17:10.717 like is secrets and clues and hidden all that 01:17:10.717 --> 01:17:15.437 stuff useful in terms of motivating character 01:17:15.437 --> 01:17:19.137 we've talked a lot about what the film is about and key moments but 01:17:19.137 --> 01:17:21.997 if you think of judd's journey through this film 01:17:21.997 --> 01:17:27.797 let's just focus on judd can you sit there and maybe the answer is no and we'll 01:17:27.797 --> 01:17:30.657 find something else with side effects that there's something else driving him 01:17:30.657 --> 01:17:34.097 you've you've chas you've done a good job of bringing in like the push and the 01:17:34.097 --> 01:17:39.757 pull but like i mean this is part of the complexity it's a dual protagonist film Right? 01:17:39.897 --> 01:17:43.677 Like, we can sit there and be, oh, no, a protagonist just takes the first action 01:17:43.677 --> 01:17:45.797 to the final consequence, and that's Judd. 01:17:45.837 --> 01:17:48.157 But the main point, you know... 01:17:48.157 --> 01:17:50.117 Nah, it's dual protagonist for sure. 01:17:50.557 --> 01:17:54.117 But it's like the easiest way to go, it's a dual protagonist story. 01:17:54.537 --> 01:17:56.497 That they, you know, and then when... 01:17:57.346 --> 01:18:00.486 Judd runs out of motivation, right? He goes to the end of the line. 01:18:00.626 --> 01:18:07.886 That's when Bernard, when Blanc comes in, right? 01:18:08.046 --> 01:18:08.166 Yeah. 01:18:08.286 --> 01:18:13.086 To come in because, but it's like, oh God, actually this is really complex. 01:18:14.086 --> 01:18:19.566 But the fundamental thing in terms of secrets that motivates the character, 01:18:20.006 --> 01:18:25.086 like there is actually a simplicity here for Judd, which is. 01:18:25.086 --> 01:18:27.986 And the audience is online with him. 01:18:28.186 --> 01:18:33.246 I think our experience of the film, the experience through Judd in the quote-unquote 01:18:33.246 --> 01:18:37.586 present, the Judd that's giving the narration, is that there is a secret, 01:18:37.746 --> 01:18:39.526 which is someone killed Wicks. 01:18:39.886 --> 01:18:43.566 I know it's someone in the congregation, and he knows it's not him. 01:18:44.403 --> 01:18:47.823 Right. That is what is, but he needs to prove his innocence. 01:18:48.083 --> 01:18:55.023 That is what is pulling him through everything. What is hidden to him. 01:18:55.523 --> 01:18:59.583 Right. And is also hidden from the audience is the way in which the murder was done. 01:19:00.183 --> 01:19:05.363 And, and possibly who the murderer was, we could argue is hidden. 01:19:05.563 --> 01:19:08.503 Right. We're getting into semantics and then really it's about conceptual stuff. 01:19:08.663 --> 01:19:10.923 What he's looking for is clues. 01:19:11.703 --> 01:19:17.363 Right. that help him to unlock the door. He knows that there's a door there 01:19:17.363 --> 01:19:21.723 to unlock the door or reveal how it's done. 01:19:22.843 --> 01:19:28.123 And anything that he does gets closer actually does put him in danger. 01:19:28.163 --> 01:19:32.223 And it works in a murder mystery because the people that are responsible for 01:19:32.223 --> 01:19:35.123 the murdering want to pin him. 01:19:35.243 --> 01:19:41.863 So when he learns more information, they want to make it clearer that he's more 01:19:41.863 --> 01:19:45.483 responsible, right? And that is a very clear kind of structure. 01:19:45.703 --> 01:19:52.623 So, for all that complexity, it's very clear what his motivation is until he 01:19:52.623 --> 01:19:56.083 thinks he is responsible for killing- Samson. 01:19:56.743 --> 01:20:02.343 Samson, right? He has no other- That information is actually hidden from him. He has no way of knowing. 01:20:02.503 --> 01:20:07.863 As a broad observation, I would say that murder mysteries, where you're following 01:20:07.863 --> 01:20:13.963 the super detective, where you're always behind Blanc until Blanc reveals everything. 01:20:15.320 --> 01:20:21.420 Is much more about the narrative point of view. It's about the setups and payoffs and reversals. 01:20:21.620 --> 01:20:27.420 It's about the relationship between the storyteller and the audience and less 01:20:27.420 --> 01:20:34.700 about the mystery is less about the impact on the characters. 01:20:35.080 --> 01:20:40.920 We've pointed to some big ones. Father Judd regains his faith and Bernard Blanc 01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:42.540 learns the value of grace. 01:20:42.540 --> 01:20:52.580 Those are two significant character journeys that they go on, but neither of them, 01:20:52.760 --> 01:21:00.780 they happen not through the push and pull of the secrets and clues, I would say. 01:21:00.780 --> 01:21:07.860 Rian Johnson is clearly incredibly clever because he uses these super intricate 01:21:07.860 --> 01:21:13.680 puzzle box murder mysteries that could be perfectly satisfying on their own 01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:19.780 and then separately uses that world that he's created to write about something else entirely, 01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:23.880 whether it's class, immigration, racism. 01:21:24.240 --> 01:21:26.700 I know what's glass onion about there. 01:21:26.700 --> 01:21:35.540 I mean, class and billionaire moguls destroying the world and COVID-ish. 01:21:36.020 --> 01:21:40.340 Yeah. And in this one, it's about the value, I think, the value of community, 01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:45.700 the interplay between charisma and faith. 01:21:45.880 --> 01:21:52.700 And we've talked about wolves versus sheep or fists versus hugs and all that other stuff. 01:21:52.900 --> 01:21:55.640 So, relating it back to what we... 01:21:56.699 --> 01:22:00.739 Have been talking about like because you made me think at the moment when 01:22:00.739 --> 01:22:03.699 he sees the risen body the dead man waking 01:22:03.699 --> 01:22:08.479 up yeah you know what is the what when does they learn information and what 01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:13.419 danger does it put him in judd literally learns the information of i've seen 01:22:13.419 --> 01:22:19.839 wicks get out and the danger puts him in is he's a me and he's possibly even 01:22:19.839 --> 01:22:22.959 learned really what's happened And the danger of Pudzumi is now accused. 01:22:23.919 --> 01:22:26.119 Like he's got a sickle in his hand. 01:22:26.299 --> 01:22:30.979 But those things happen to Father Judd. He is not at that point pursuing information. 01:22:31.179 --> 01:22:34.919 He's literally walking. At that point, he's walking away from the mystery. 01:22:35.139 --> 01:22:37.479 He's turned his back on it. He's walking away from this mystery. 01:22:37.639 --> 01:22:41.479 Something absolutely incredible has happened that he then chases after. 01:22:41.579 --> 01:22:46.139 He's seen Wicks resurrected and wants to chase after it. And he ends up being 01:22:46.139 --> 01:22:50.799 punched in the face and waking up to find his hand on a sickle in a dead body. 01:22:50.799 --> 01:22:54.279 Yeah. So we're oscillating between push and pull, right? In a way, 01:22:54.899 --> 01:22:57.419 learning information is pull, danger is push. 01:22:58.142 --> 01:22:59.782 Right. So you're talking about 01:22:59.782 --> 01:23:04.542 a way of creating a narrative energy from oscillating between those two. 01:23:04.842 --> 01:23:04.962 Yeah. 01:23:05.222 --> 01:23:09.142 Right. What is the cost of learning the information is another way of thinking about that. 01:23:09.422 --> 01:23:14.662 But it ultimately come, like, it's a similar idea. And I think we would see, 01:23:14.802 --> 01:23:16.702 we see that in side effects. 01:23:16.922 --> 01:23:21.922 The more that, I was going to say, Judd. 01:23:22.882 --> 01:23:23.702 Jude Law. 01:23:25.242 --> 01:23:25.902 Judd Law. 01:23:26.602 --> 01:23:26.942 Banks. 01:23:27.222 --> 01:23:27.642 Dr. 01:23:27.682 --> 01:23:27.962 Banks. 01:23:29.262 --> 01:23:33.662 The more that Dr. Banks learns, the more the threat rises for him. 01:23:33.842 --> 01:23:37.522 Every bit of information puts him in danger. 01:23:37.902 --> 01:23:41.062 And that danger then pushes him to learn more information. 01:23:41.142 --> 01:23:43.422 It also gives him leverage, I will argue. 01:23:43.642 --> 01:23:43.802 Yeah. 01:23:44.282 --> 01:23:48.502 So in some ways, I think what's going to be interesting about side effects is 01:23:48.502 --> 01:23:53.362 that it's going to be more simple in this analysis than Dead Man. 01:23:53.582 --> 01:23:55.042 So much more simple. 01:23:55.042 --> 01:23:58.722 But even though it will be much more simple, you will have to wait until next 01:23:58.722 --> 01:24:04.282 episode to hear about side effects and shrinking. 01:24:04.622 --> 01:24:09.542 But while we're here and we've just done a straight murder mystery, 01:24:09.862 --> 01:24:13.682 what are your guys' key learnings from this? Starting with you, Mel. 01:24:14.142 --> 01:24:18.842 Key learnings from whatever we call the Third Knives Out installment with some 01:24:18.842 --> 01:24:22.242 combination of waking, walking, dead, and people. 01:24:22.242 --> 01:24:31.422 I really enjoyed how it let the characterizations lead how they dealt with the 01:24:31.422 --> 01:24:33.342 clues and the finding of the clues, etc. 01:24:33.342 --> 01:24:37.802 It wasn't that every character found it in the same way or reacted the same 01:24:37.802 --> 01:24:39.942 way or hid their secrets the same way, etc. 01:24:40.362 --> 01:24:43.802 But they all responded differently based on how we knew who they were, 01:24:43.902 --> 01:24:49.062 which is different than something like in an Agatha Christie story, right? 01:24:49.182 --> 01:24:51.942 Where essentially all of the suspects are kind of same, same. 01:24:52.162 --> 01:24:57.442 And then you have your one other protagonist. Like, I think this movie took great pains to... 01:24:57.951 --> 01:25:02.971 The way those secrets were hidden, revealed, and discovered were all rooted 01:25:02.971 --> 01:25:04.691 in the characterization. 01:25:05.751 --> 01:25:11.271 I think we came into this looking at how secrets and clues would particularly 01:25:11.271 --> 01:25:13.951 affect character journeys, reveal character journeys. 01:25:14.071 --> 01:25:18.631 And I think we went in perhaps thinking about how that would relate to plotting, 01:25:18.851 --> 01:25:24.771 but we really ended up focusing on what does it mean for the character for when 01:25:24.771 --> 01:25:32.231 they want to look for, or are forced to look for secrets or information. And. 01:25:34.489 --> 01:25:38.209 Knives Out is a murder mystery and so it plays much more with the relationship 01:25:38.209 --> 01:25:41.449 with the audience than necessarily in between the characters. 01:25:41.969 --> 01:25:47.029 But the idea of narrative velocity, that's the thing that really caught me and 01:25:47.029 --> 01:25:50.489 I just want to highlight that there's a difference in stakes. 01:25:50.489 --> 01:25:53.109 I'm not quite sure if I can articulate it, but I'm going to try. 01:25:54.129 --> 01:25:57.409 That Blanc is being pulled. 01:25:57.749 --> 01:26:02.569 It is in his character to want to figure out the secret, right? 01:26:02.749 --> 01:26:06.489 And so for Blanc, the danger has to escalate. 01:26:06.589 --> 01:26:10.149 And in that key decision right at the end where he decides not to reveal the 01:26:10.149 --> 01:26:13.929 secret in front of everyone, it speaks volumes about his character. 01:26:13.929 --> 01:26:17.049 And so whereas for Judd who 01:26:17.049 --> 01:26:20.109 initially wants to be on the mission 01:26:20.109 --> 01:26:23.069 because he's a suspect and he kind of hates all 01:26:23.069 --> 01:26:25.929 the people in his congregation but as he 01:26:25.929 --> 01:26:31.989 becomes closer to reconnecting with his faith he gets off he doesn't want the 01:26:31.989 --> 01:26:36.049 secret and so has to be pushed pushed to the extent where he has to witness 01:26:36.049 --> 01:26:42.569 the resurrection of an evil priest and think genuinely in himself that he has 01:26:42.569 --> 01:26:45.809 committed murderer of a man that he liked and respected. 01:26:46.429 --> 01:26:51.269 So, both of them have escalations, right? I was trying to think like one's stakes 01:26:51.269 --> 01:26:53.269 and one's danger. Maybe they're the same thing. 01:26:53.649 --> 01:26:59.169 Both of them have to escalate, but that escalation, one is way more internal. 01:26:59.389 --> 01:27:05.069 One speaks way more about Blanc's journey, that decision right at the end. 01:27:05.129 --> 01:27:07.229 And I'm only talking about one instance in the entire film. 01:27:07.589 --> 01:27:13.729 Whereas for Judd, it's that constant pushing. 01:27:13.889 --> 01:27:17.529 It's kind of like those survival films that we talked about where, you know, it's. 01:27:18.443 --> 01:27:22.683 The pressure that gets put on characters refusing to change, refusing to engage. 01:27:23.063 --> 01:27:28.003 And I think that narrative velocity is something that reveals character in two 01:27:28.003 --> 01:27:32.083 very different ways, particularly as it interacts with stakes. 01:27:32.943 --> 01:27:37.563 My takeaway, because I kind of already given my summary, is that we should always take our patrons. 01:27:37.843 --> 01:27:42.523 All of our patrons who make Drive Zero possible. Especially our top tier patrons, 01:27:42.663 --> 01:27:48.023 Lily, Alexandre, Malay, Jess, Thomas, Paulo, Randy, Jesse, Sandra, 01:27:48.183 --> 01:27:51.403 Theos, and Krob. You guys are amazing. 01:27:52.143 --> 01:27:57.383 And please consider us supporting on Patreon if you like what we do. 01:27:57.683 --> 01:28:01.583 I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself. About anything on 01:28:01.583 --> 01:28:03.163 this episode or anything in general. 01:28:03.343 --> 01:28:10.003 And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. 01:28:10.323 --> 01:28:14.363 At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes. 01:28:14.523 --> 01:28:19.843 As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and 01:28:19.843 --> 01:28:22.883 review on Apple Podcasts. 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