Sarah Gaskin: We had actually started closing the grant, thinking, oh, this is unsuccessful, you know, but in the very last, I guess right before the touchdown, you know, we get this exemption and we move quickly. And we worked with Napa Recycling, which is an incredible partner. Cause they also had everything ready for us to set up there and were able to operate. It definitely has huge implications for our industry down the line.
Chantel Davis: Welcome to Rooted in Care, where we amplify the voices of our clients and dive into how tree care plays an integral role in our everyday lives.
Buddy Marshall: Whether you're familiar with a tree or new to our community, we're here to bring the service industry together to explore the deep rooted connection between people, trees and the environment.
Chantel Davis: I'm Chantel Davis, Chief Revenue Officer at A Tree.
Buddy Marshall: I'm Buddy Marshall, VP of Commercial Sales at A.
Chantel Davis: We'll dig into what matters most to you. Your input shapes how tree care enhances the beauty of our communities while protecting our natural surroundings.
Buddy Marshall: Let's get to the root of thoughtful tree care for your property, your city, your home.
Chantel Davis: All right, I'm really excited for today's episode of Rooted in Care. Wood chips to biochar. Changing the rules to change the game. We are going to educate homeowners and business owners on the value and benefits of biochar. We brought on a special guest who's going to share what she's done over the last four years to make this happen. So very excited to have you on Sarah Gaskin. She is our Vice President of Strategic initiatives and the original OG at A Tree. So she's got a Bachelor of Science in Environmental Science. She went to UC Berkeley and she is a certified arborist. She's also a consulting arborist. On top of that, she's the board president of the California Urban Forest Council. Thank you, Sarah, for joining. I'd love for you to have.
Chantel Davis: Yeah, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and maybe tell us a little bit about you and how you came.
Sarah Gaskin: To a. Yeah, I mean, not the original OG but I was definitely there in the early days, almost 15 years ago. We started in Vallejo and I was working with Jeremy, he's our late founder. He was also a really good family friend. He kind of tricked me into working for him and I kind of gave it a month. I was like, let's give this a try. We'll give it a month. And here I am 15 years later. And I mean, it's been an incredible journey with a.
Chantel Davis: And in addition to that, how many.
Sarah Gaskin: Kids do you have Sarah four. We are going on four. And I'm hoping that's the last.
Chantel Davis: So she is someone who does it all. So we are very excited for her to share kind of the whole process and story about how we got here.
Buddy Marshall: Sarah, well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. This is amazing. It's really cool to have you on here. And this is. We think biochar is going to be the future for us and for the country. So where did your passion for tree care come from?
Sarah Gaskin: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty interesting because, I mean, it's a great question. I've asked that myself that a lot of times. Like, why do I love trees so much? What do I love about this industry? And I mean, I think one thing just in general, being around trees, there's a feeling that you get. I mean, it's. You just can't describe it. When you're in an area without trees, it makes a big difference what you realize when you're an area with trees. You're like, wow, trees really make a difference. I don't know what it is, but it's something beautiful, it's something magical, it's something spiritual. And I think that there are a lot of parallels of trees with our personal life, our social life, our physical life, even our spiritual life.
Sarah Gaskin: If you think of a root system having a solid root system, having a solid foundation, you know what your values are, then you could grow to be a stronger tree and weather the storms. I mean, there's so many things. Even tree diversity, you know, is a parallel in how much better or healthier an environment is. With diversity, more into that is just. Even the tree being a part of the tree industry, it's something, there's something about this industry. There's like a humility to it. You know, it's not that glamorous at all. I mean, it's tree work. But I think with a lot. When you come together with a certain skill set and passion to create, there's a lot of opportunity to do glamorous things.
Sarah Gaskin: I guess you can say in this industry that no one else is really doing or you just don't think about.
Buddy Marshall: So let's talk about this huge initiative you've been working on for over four years, Biochar.
Sarah Gaskin: Okay.
Buddy Marshall: So for those who don't know what is biochar and what value does it bring?
Sarah Gaskin: So biochar first biochar is made when biomass, like wood chips, is heated to super high temperatures, like anywhere between 900 degrees to 2,000 degrees Celsius in a very low oxygen environment. So that process is called pyrolysis. So if you think of a fire, right, something burning when oxygen hits it, that turns into ash in this process with the lack of oxygen, it's not turning into ash, it's turning into a charcoal like substance that is a very stable form of carbon. So a stable form of carbon means that it's not reactive. And the carbon stays locked away in that, in the biochar for hundreds of thousands of years. So instead of it being released into the atmosphere, it is now locked away once you put it into your soil. And it's proven to improve soil health, promote root growth in several ways.
Sarah Gaskin: One of our studies by one of the suppliers that we have actually shows it's to. It increases the beneficial microbe, the activity of that beneficial microbe by a thousand to three thousand percent just in three weeks. I like to describe it as kind of creating the right environment, like a restaurant to come and eat and the food to be served. So it's kind of like creating this environment to where the microbes come and the nutrients are there. And that's where a lot of the activity is generated to create healthier soils. So especially in urban soils, they're very depleted. They're often, they're coming in from other places. There is, you know, sometimes there's toxins in the soil. It's not getting the organic matter back into the soil like a normal forest floor would. So there's a lot of things that are missing in our soils.
Sarah Gaskin: And because of that, the urban trees end up struggling. So all of this stuff affects the root growth of a tree. And as we know, root growth is very important in order for a tree to be healthy. So if we're focusing on the soils and the roots, then you have healthier trees and more resilient. The biochar also, you know, holds more water. So water's just not draining through. There's more water retention, there's more nutrient retention. So if you think about a water filter, you know, if you have, you ever opened up a water filter and you have that little black stuff in there that's actually activated carbon, but that's very similar to biochar. It's just, it doesn't come from waste product. No, that's cleaner and more processed. So if you think about it like that. Right.
Chantel Davis: No, that's great, Sarah. I mean, it's a great concept to think about. Right. We live in California, which is traditionally a drought state, and to have a product that can help kind of keep the water there so it doesn't just go and dissolve. Right. And then the trees can die. Die because they don't have enough water. That's a great concept because you, I'm sure, get the same alerts that we do, which is conserve your water, don't water, don't do this. And we want to make sure to comply, but we also want to make sure that we're not killing our trees. Right. We want to make sure we're taking care of them. So it's such kind of a full circle for the everyday person to understand just the importance around it. So, you know, really based on what you're saying. Right.
Chantel Davis: For our viewers listening, and I know you'll get into this next, but biochar, it really helps solve, like, the wood chip problems. Right. Because it turns that excessive wood waste right into something useful. And being a tree care company, we have a lot of wood chips. And so that is kind of how it all came together. And, you know, maybe, Sarah, you could talk about, like, what is the wood chip problem that we have and how do you feel like when we get to this program that it's going to help it? Because I think that's really important for people to understand.
Sarah Gaskin: Sure. Yeah, it was definitely going into this. That was our goal. Let's start with the. The. How big the wood chip problem is. You know, you ask any tree company, one of their biggest daily logistical problems. What is it? Probably wood chips is going to be in their top three. Working in metropolitan areas where there is not a lot of land. You can't just dump it out somewhere in an open field. And so we're paying tipping fees. We are going to these landfills and paying to dump our chips. So if you think about, you know, how much like the volume of the wood chip, so one crew, one tree crew can generate, you know, maybe one truckload of wood chips, which is about 15 cubic yards. There are, you know, hundreds of tree companies just here in the Bay Area.
Sarah Gaskin: So you multiply that, and that could generate over a million tons a year just of wood chips. And so there's a problem with the wood chips in two ways. Environmentally, when the wood chips break down and decompose, all of that, like I said earlier, all of that carbon actually just gets released into the atmosphere, and that's adding to the greenhouse gases that affect climate change. And the second one with tree companies is the cost of it all and how much it affects us of paying to get rid of what should be very valuable Waste. And so this is where the project originated. We're like, okay, well we have the wood chip problems and we use the biochar. Let's just figure out all of the stuff in between. That's where this project really was like generated.
Chantel Davis: No, that's really helpful. So kind of on that topic and understanding that. Cause that is a big issue. Right. You don't want to continue to put stuff in the landfills. How does biochar actually solve the wood chip challenge and concerns?
Sarah Gaskin: So by being able to convert wood chips to biochar on a massive scale. I mean, that is taking, you know, that is diverting a portion. Of course it can't do it to, you know, to all of the wood chips. It's part of the solution. It's not the entire solution, but it's one of the many solutions and how we can divert wood chips from going to a landfill. So that in this project, that's where were going with it. Because there was no other tree company. We were looking around, why isn't anyone doing this? There are tree companies that are so much bigger than us, have more resources than us, and we would ask, why aren't you guys doing this? And it was just. There's a lot of.
Sarah Gaskin: Once you get starting in the project and now after four years, I realize why no one was doing it. It's not easy to start something like this.
Buddy Marshall: Biochar is totally brand new to me. It's been around for centuries. I had no idea. So you say that the project's been in the works for over four years. So what was the dream born from? And how did you begin pursuing the goal or this goal?
Sarah Gaskin: So, you know, wood chip waste has always been a problem, I guess. And back when, actually in 2016, when were introduced to biochar in the first place, to use it in our plant healthcare, then that started. That's when things started coming together. Like, well, we have so much wood chips. We use biochar. Let's figure out how to do this. But at that time, so much was happening. We just didn't have any time for it. And so it wasn't until around 2019, actually I made this vision board. I don't know if you can see.
Chantel Davis: I love that. I'm all about the vision board. Right? That's amazing.
Sarah Gaskin: This was like the first time I had actually was serious about, like, I'm going to be intentional about my vision boards and like do something that I could actually commit to. So this was in 2019. This is actually, after Jeremy, our late founder, he had passed, and I was. I have, like, these annual. Every year I rethink, like, what am I doing? What are my goals? And this was one of those times. And, like, you know what? I'm going to. I'm going to bring back this idea, and I'm going to, like, really try to figure out what to do with it. Cyrus, also our, you know, our CEO, also, along around that same time, was having the same exact feelings, like, why isn't anyone doing this? But it takes, you know, really intentional, and it takes some.
Sarah Gaskin: Some form of leadership to, like, actually do something. You can't just make a couple phone calls. You really got to pursue this. So once I created this, I went back to Cyrus. I'm like, hey, I really want to see what I could figure. Figure out with this. And he said. He gave me the green light. He said, run with it. Pursue every avenue. So that's where it started. I started googling, reading all about biochar. I kept seeing this guy's name. His name is Raymond Baltar. I kept seeing him pop up. He's the director of the Sonoma Biochar initiative. So I found his number, recalled him, and he said, I have about 10 minutes to talk. I said, okay, well, let me pitch you what I'm trying to do here. And we talked for an hour. And he was just.
Sarah Gaskin: I mean, he had been trying to get a biochar pyrolysis unit up and running in a city for years, and he just didn't know where to get a solid feedstock from, or like, he didn't really know how to tie everything together at the same time in a way that made sense for businesses. And so that's where he come into play. Then in the same time, we find a Cal Fire Urban Forestry grant that's due within that month. So we scramble and we put together an entire proposal, submit our application. A year and a half, almost a year and a half later, we're actually awarded 1.2 million to get this project off the ground. And so it's really to prove a model. So that's where it started.
Chantel Davis: And I know you touched on it a little bit earlier, Sarah, but I'd love to be able to dive a little bit into the urban recycling process right. On how that biochar is made. So we know, like, the basic concept, right? Tree is cut down, chipped, and then what happens, right? How does that unit actually work? Because I know for me, I'm very curious, and I'm sure everybody Else listening is also very curious on that.
Sarah Gaskin: Right. So from the tree being cut down, goes into the chipper, goes into the chip truck. The chip truck drives, goes to where our unit is now, which is located at Napa Recycling and Compost. So it gets dumped there. But it can't go just directly from chipper to the unit. It actually has to go through a process. So when trees are chipped, there's about a 40 to 60% moisture content. And that needs to come down to 20% before it goes through the unit. On top of that, it has to filter out all of the leaves, the sticks, things that get caught up in the, what's called an auger that automatically feeds the unit. And so because of that, the wood chips have to go through a screening process.
Sarah Gaskin: It goes into these huge giant drums and it turns out, basically screens out the different sizes of wood chips so that you have a specific size of wood chip that goes into the. The unit. So size and moisture content. So it sits there until out in the sun, until it. And it gets turned every so often until it reaches about that 20% moisture content. Then that gets loaded into a feedstock. And that feedstock kind of like automatically goes. It feeds into the biochar unit. And that's where all of that heating without oxygen, all of that process, it kind of goes through a couple of loops of that. And at the end is biochar. That's the process.
Sarah Gaskin: So right now this unit, you know, because it is, were proving a model really, it's not able to handle all of the wood chips that are coming in. It's initial unit that can be expanded upon. But this unit only takes In, I believe, 10 tons of wood chips a day. And then the output is 2 tons of biochar. So that's per day. Okay. And so in through the process, actually it sequesters about 50% of carbon into the biochar. And then the other 50% is released as what's called syngas. And it's like a mixture of a bunch of gases. But that gas goes back into, feeds back into the pyrolysis unit to keep it heated. So it's like a kind of a closed loop system so that there's very little emissions.
Sarah Gaskin: And this is why were able, this is why it's such a big deal is because. And why we're able to operate this unit within city limits. This is, this has been like the biggest deal of the whole project is to operate something like this within a city.
Chantel Davis: Yeah, it's Great for climate change, right? That's kind of what you want to hear.
Sarah Gaskin: Absolutely. Because all of the waste is really happening within the city. So if the unit was, you know, 50 miles out, we had, you know, you have to truck things back and forth. Then you're, then you have all of the emissions of the trucking and all of that stuff. So having it located locally where the waste is, I mean, that was really the big deal that came. Cal Fire was thrilled about proving that we can, you know, that model. And also obviously we're thrilled about Sonoma initiated biochar initiative is thrilled about. So generally speaking, like, all biochar people are thrilled about. Like there was. There was a woman at our ribbon cutting this last weekend. She said, I've been waiting 20 years to see this. And so when I hear that, I'm like, wow, that's what it. Like, that's crazy to me.
Sarah Gaskin: You know, that's what it took this long.
Buddy Marshall: So, Sarah, I, I heard a rumor tell me about this project, and it was told to me that the feds may have gotten involved and try to foil this whole plan. You know, so what kind of red tape did you actually encounter during this? This whole, you know, you're so passionate about. You've got your, you've got your board, you're like, I'm doing this. And then the feds say, you know, we're so.
Sarah Gaskin: Yeah, tell me about them. It wasn't the feds, like the FBI. Like, no one busted in my house. Like, this project is being shut down. You know, it wasn't like that. It was the US epa, the Environmental Protection Agency. So, okay, it's a, it's really a long. It's kind of a long story, right? A four years worth of this. The, the headaches didn't start off with them. I'll just say that just getting permitted. So you have to go through permits through the city, then county, then the air quality board is within that region and the EPA oversees that. I mean, there's just, there's all these like, interconnected agencies. And I think why everything took so long is because one thing is waiting for the other, which is waiting for the other. And you don't get things done until that one approves this one.
Sarah Gaskin: And then on top of that, this is happening, like right after Covid. And so there's all kinds of personnel issues. People are out. You know, we submit application or we submit a request or inquiry or anything, and it takes weeks, sometimes months to hear back. So that really, you know, just the Lengthy process of bureaucracy was really what kept coming up and kept coming up. And then finally when I we feel like we can actually start operating, then this ruling is discovered by the US epa, which what you're referring to that categorizes this unit as a solid waste incinerator. So they were categorying as the wood chips was actually used for solid waste. And that's what we're burning. That's.
Sarah Gaskin: So once you're, if you're trying to operate something that's burning solid waste, like imagine the kind of hoops you have to jump through to operate that within a city or like additional permits or whatever. And on top of all this, everything costs money. We, and we have to get reports and those cost thousands of dollars and we have to get emissions this and you know, so everything costs a lot of money and time. And so once we found out that were categorized as a solid waste incinerator, we just were like, okay, what now? What do we do? Who do we need to talk to? So that's when we just started, you know, bringing as many people together in terms of like experts in the industry.
Sarah Gaskin: Who do we need to reach out to, who's the decision makers and just starting to get meetings with the right people. And eventually we did find that and we would have these back and forth conversations, give them everything they wanted and then wait to hear back for weeks. And then so finally 10 months of specifically knocking on the door of the EPA and trying to get them to reverse this ruling. We got a, we get a letter from them and they make this unit exempt and they actually like nationwide. So it opens it up nationwide. Now these things could operate within cities. So that was like we didn't expect that at all. We thought this project was dead. We had actually started closing the grant thinking oh this is unsuccessful, you know, but. And the very last, I guess right before the touchdown.
Sarah Gaskin: I don't know, I don't really know football.
Chantel Davis: You got it. Touchdown.
Sarah Gaskin: The 10 yard line. There we go, the 10 yard line. Then you know, we get this exemption and we move quickly. And we worked with Napa Recycling, which is an incredible partner because they also had everything ready and started getting everything ready for us to set up there and that's where it went and were able to operate.
Buddy Marshall: That's wonderful. Well, I'm glad you didn't have to. I'm glad that the feds didn't knock.
Chantel Davis: Your door down, that's all. Buddy got away with it. I was thinking more of what an Amazing accomplishment. And most people would have given up, but based on just even how you talked about it, your tenacity, and you're like, this is going to happen, not only made it happen at this location, but really it's a huge accomplishment for the whole urban forestry and tree care industry. Right. And that's why we wanted to feature that, because that's amazing. And, you know, with this now happening, what do you think this actually means for the future of the industry now that we've got this one up and running?
Sarah Gaskin: I mean, now there's a model to, like, actually mimic or, you know, there's something to see. Okay, that's how it's done. And, you know, you could cut out all of the extra years that it took to get there. So I. I mean, I think this is definitely, you know, it doesn't. Obviously doesn't solve the problem for us immediately. We can't get all of our wood chips there. I mean, we could only get a couple loads a week anyways. So it's definitely not like the solution right now. But I think it has. It definitely has huge implications for our industry down the line. We have a proven model now that other tree companies can follow. We know the partners that are needed, what it takes, and really, we've paved the way for the regulation so that, you know, that shaves off years from.
Sarah Gaskin: From someone who wants to start up, and now you have people that can consult with you know, like. Like us. And. And I want to say, you know, Raymond, who I mentioned earlier, Raymond Baltar, he really has been, like, such an incredible partner and driver of this entire thing because he navigated things within the biochar industry, and even with a lot of the regulations that were. Were new to me, too. So I was just there. I'm like, yep, whatever you need from us. And, you know, Cyrus is right there with us. Like, we'll help you figure it out.
Chantel Davis: No, that's. That's amazing. And so a lot of our viewers are typically homeowners and property managers. So how do you feel like this new technology can and will impact them with their tree care? Like, how will that all kind of come together?
Sarah Gaskin: I think right now it's really, like, education and awareness of, like, what's possible and what's out there and, like, what. What the problem is and what we're trying to do as a solution and, you know, asking about biochar and bringing that in to their own soils, in their home gardens, in their trees. Because I think when there's more of a demand Then there's more policy and things that will follow. Like when we got this biochar unit up and running, and we had. And people found out about it in Napa, at Napa Recycling, they were getting calls from some of the wineries, some other places, and one guy asked, hey, can I get 70 tons today? You know, so if that. If there's that kind of demand, then I think it's easier for businesses to know how to.
Sarah Gaskin: To know that they can scale and get that money back. You know, everything comes down to money, usually. And so right now, biochar is so expensive because there's not enough people doing it. And it's a very expensive process. But the more people demand it and the more people are aware of it, you know, it's being sold, starting to be sold at Home Depot right now. Not ours, but others that are coming in from out of state. It's sold at Home Depot. So I think if there's more of a homeowner demand, more of an understanding, more of an awareness, then that will drive more change in the industry as well.
Buddy Marshall: Wow, what an amazing story of perseverance. I mean, innovation, changing policy, and clearly your passion behind this to build a better path forward. I mean, truly great work, Sarah. This is. This is really good. But before we wrap up, I just want to know, you know, for our listeners and for Chantelle and I, what's your biggest takeaway from this whole experience? What do you take away from this?
Sarah Gaskin: My biggest takeaway? Well, there's definitely something about being naive and kind of having that entrepreneur spirit and, like, not knowing a lot, because, you know, in the very beginning, you're like, how hard can this be? Let's give it a shot. I think, like, my biggest takeaway is everything takes so much longer than you would expect, especially specifically in bureaucracy. I think when it's a new idea, there's just so much fear around making a decision around it, because once they allow it, once it kind of sets the precedent for others to follow. So there. There's, like, extra. Extra caution in allowing something specifically in bureaucracy. So that's what I faced a lot, is just people being like, I don't know. I don't think so. I have to check with my boss, that kind of thing.
Sarah Gaskin: And also, you know, a big one is like, that, like, this was funded by a Cal Fire grant, an Urban Forestry Cal Fire grant. And we would not have been able to afford to do something like this one, nor would we have had, like, the stamina to. To, like, see it out for Four years. But having it, you know, funded through Cal Fire, who keep you incredibly accountable to what you do and where the dollars go. That's why grants are there. Like, I never really understood how much like grants actually help the further research, further development, further like opening innovative things like this to happen. And you know, now we're in an era right now where funding is being cut all over the place. And so advocating for even to increase grant funding in these kinds of areas is very important as well.
Chantel Davis: Yeah, I think the best thing about this Sarah, is it's just, it's opening up the doors to so much potential. Right. As we move forward, we're looking at wood trips and tree care differently right through biochar. And so what I want to make sure for everybody listening right now, there was a lot of information that Sarah talked about throughout the process, why it benefits the environment. And, and one of the things we want to tell you all is you can go check out the show notes for links to all the resources that Sarah mentioned today on our website. We've also been posting videos from actual opening day. So you can see her out there cutting the ribbon, you know, at the event.
Chantel Davis: But one of the things Sarah, before we end it for our listeners, how or where or what should they do to reach out to get their biochar today? What does that look like?
Sarah Gaskin: Our. So we have it in our. In every like treatment, in every plant health care treatment protocol. We pretty much incorporate it into our, what we like to call cocktails and we actually the. The type of biochar we use is a liquid form and so it can easily be like injected into the soil. There is granular biochar that is available at like, somewhat like Home Depot actually has it. It's really expensive though. Like Amazon, you could get it delivered. But again it's like everything's like pretty expensive. The nap. If you live anywhere near Napa, they. They're selling it because it's being produced as well and it's being mixed in compost. So that's also another form of getting it is you can also get ready to use biochar that's already mixed in compost. And so you could just spread that in your garden.
Chantel Davis: I think that's absolutely fantastic. I think this is a great learning experience. I learned a ton of. I think our viewers are learning a ton. And we also recommend if this is something that you're interested in learning more about, like Sarah mentioned, just reach out to us at a. We clearly have a whole team that knows a lot about it and we're happy to give information at any time. But really, Sarah, thank you so much for doing this. We're excited to kind of see how this journey is going to go for the next four years right now that it's up and running. And I'm very excited to see what it can turn into not only in the Sonoma area, but where else we can expand it out to. So thank you so much for the time today.
Chantel Davis: We really appreciate a ton of knowledge and we're excited for everybody to check it out and learn a little bit more about it.
Buddy Marshall: Thank you Sarah.
Sarah Gaskin: Thank you.
Chantel Davis: Thank you for listening to this episode of Rooted in Care.
Buddy Marshall: We have a fresh lineup of new episodes ready to drop, so tune in each week to hear people just like you share their experience and insights on how tree care impacts our daily lives. Subscribe to Rooted in Care. We're on Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts.
Chantel Davis: Tell us what you thought of this episode by leaving a review, commenting, or look us up on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.
Buddy Marshall: This podcast is a plussed up production created in collaboration with Chorus Studios. Stay rooted out There.