1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,440 Carol Cox: We're continuing our series about big ideas. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,400 My guest today is Janice Gassam, 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,040 whose new book, Rise and Resist, 4 00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:10,880 is a tour de force about finding and using 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,520 your voice. On this episode of the Speaking 6 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:14,760 Your Brand podcast. 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,440 More and more women are making an impact by 8 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,960 starting businesses, running for office, 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,120 and speaking up for what matters. 10 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,200 With my background as a TV political analyst, 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,840 entrepreneur, and speaker, 12 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,760 I interview and coach purpose driven women to 13 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,360 shape their brands, grow their companies, 14 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,200 and become recognized as influencers in their 15 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,360 field. This is speaking your brand, 16 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,800 your place to learn how to persuasively 17 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,040 communicate your message to your audience. 18 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:48,920 Hi there and welcome to the Speaking Your 19 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,360 Brand podcast. I'm your host, 20 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Carol Cox. Today we're going to dive into how 21 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,800 to find and use your voice, 22 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,290 especially if you have something that's a 23 00:01:00,330 --> 00:01:03,210 bigger impact that you want to make and how 24 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:04,930 that can take different forms. 25 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,250 It could be your signature talk for speaking 26 00:01:07,250 --> 00:01:09,250 engagement. It could be articles and 27 00:01:09,250 --> 00:01:10,730 publications that you write. 28 00:01:10,770 --> 00:01:12,810 It could also be an entire book. 29 00:01:12,970 --> 00:01:15,170 And I am so thrilled to have back on the 30 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:17,890 podcast, my guest, Janice Gassam, 31 00:01:18,330 --> 00:01:22,250 she was last on the podcast in episode 156, 32 00:01:22,530 --> 00:01:24,770 which aired in January 2020. 33 00:01:24,810 --> 00:01:27,330 And boy, does the world look a lot different 34 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:30,130 than when she was on, because at the time we 35 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:32,290 talked about visibility strategies to get you 36 00:01:32,330 --> 00:01:34,570 noticed and definitely go back and listen to 37 00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:36,530 that episode. I'll link to it in the show 38 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:37,810 notes. But since then, 39 00:01:37,850 --> 00:01:39,690 as I mentioned, a lot has gone on. 40 00:01:39,690 --> 00:01:42,130 Janice has a PhD in organizational 41 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:44,890 psychology, and she's the founder of an award 42 00:01:44,930 --> 00:01:47,050 winning consultancy that works with 43 00:01:47,050 --> 00:01:49,490 organizations to create cultures built on 44 00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:52,490 equity. She has written three best selling 45 00:01:52,490 --> 00:01:54,890 books, and the reason I'm having her on now 46 00:01:54,890 --> 00:01:56,850 is because she has a book that is coming out 47 00:01:56,890 --> 00:01:59,220 right now in February 2026, 48 00:01:59,260 --> 00:02:01,580 called Rise and Resist How to Reclaim 49 00:02:01,580 --> 00:02:04,060 Workplace Equity and Justice. 50 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:05,540 Obviously, it's very timely, 51 00:02:05,540 --> 00:02:07,180 which is why I wanted to have her on to have 52 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:08,380 this conversation. 53 00:02:08,540 --> 00:02:11,380 Janice is also a senior contributing writer 54 00:02:11,380 --> 00:02:14,620 for Forbes, having authored over 500 55 00:02:14,660 --> 00:02:17,620 articles. That's like me having over 450 56 00:02:17,660 --> 00:02:19,820 podcast episodes, but I feel like writing 57 00:02:19,820 --> 00:02:22,300 articles is a lot harder than me just talking 58 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:24,700 on the podcast. She's also a contributor to 59 00:02:24,740 --> 00:02:26,140 Harvard Business Review, 60 00:02:26,340 --> 00:02:28,220 a LinkedIn learning instructor, 61 00:02:28,220 --> 00:02:30,180 and a two time TEDx speaker. 62 00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:32,300 On top of all that, she's also an adjunct 63 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:34,740 professor at Columbia University. 64 00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:36,340 Janice, I don't know how you do it all, 65 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:38,020 but welcome back to the podcast. 66 00:02:38,140 --> 00:02:39,860 Janice Gassam Asare: Thank you so much, Carol, 67 00:02:39,860 --> 00:02:42,180 for having me. I'm so glad to be back. 68 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:45,220 So much has changed in these last six years, 69 00:02:45,220 --> 00:02:47,940 but I'm so glad to be here and to to be 70 00:02:47,940 --> 00:02:48,780 joining you. 71 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:52,380 Carol Cox: Well, I you sent me an advanced a galley of 72 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:53,900 your new book, Rise and Resist. 73 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:55,660 And it is beautifully written, which I'm not 74 00:02:55,660 --> 00:02:57,540 surprised because you are such a great 75 00:02:57,580 --> 00:02:59,620 writer. And actually we first connected 76 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:03,220 because back in 2019 you found this podcast 77 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:04,500 and then you were so kind. 78 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:07,420 You wrote an article featuring me in Forbes 79 00:03:07,420 --> 00:03:09,620 about how I'm trying to get women speakers 80 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:12,980 paid to speak because we still have problems 81 00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:14,860 in public speaking, with equity, 82 00:03:14,860 --> 00:03:16,340 with women speakers, and that's something 83 00:03:16,340 --> 00:03:18,100 that we still work with our clients on to. 84 00:03:18,140 --> 00:03:19,740 First of all, ask to get paid, 85 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:22,140 but then ask what the going rates are for it 86 00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,660 as well. So thank you for for spotlighting 87 00:03:24,660 --> 00:03:27,140 that. But let's dive into your new book, 88 00:03:27,140 --> 00:03:28,380 Rise and Resist. 89 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:31,260 So tell us a little bit about the premise of 90 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:34,060 the book and why you decided to write it. 91 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:37,780 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I, you know, I, I was just I've just 92 00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:40,140 been seeing what's happening, 93 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:44,060 what we're all seeing in the US going on and 94 00:03:44,060 --> 00:03:46,860 unfolding. And you mentioned in earlier in 95 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:49,580 the podcast that I have a background in 96 00:03:49,580 --> 00:03:51,260 organizational psychology, 97 00:03:51,620 --> 00:03:54,180 but a lot of my work and my writing has 98 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:56,310 focused on equity, right? 99 00:03:56,350 --> 00:03:58,670 How to make sure that the most marginalized 100 00:03:58,670 --> 00:04:02,310 employees have an opportunity to succeed and 101 00:04:02,310 --> 00:04:03,990 to thrive in the workplace. 102 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:06,870 And what I've noticed is, 103 00:04:06,870 --> 00:04:08,590 in just the time that I've been doing this 104 00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:10,350 work for the last several years, 105 00:04:10,350 --> 00:04:12,630 is that a lot of things are cyclical. 106 00:04:12,870 --> 00:04:15,590 And what has happened ten years ago or 20 107 00:04:15,590 --> 00:04:18,910 years ago or 30 years ago happens again and 108 00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:20,590 happens over and over and over. 109 00:04:20,630 --> 00:04:23,230 And, you know, I know you are you have a 110 00:04:23,230 --> 00:04:24,470 background in history. 111 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:26,630 I am not. As I wrote in the book, 112 00:04:26,670 --> 00:04:28,790 I was never really a fan of history. 113 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:30,870 I'm not a student of history, 114 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:34,510 but I've learned that if I am in this 115 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:37,270 position where I want to help people to have 116 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:38,990 better experiences in the workplace, 117 00:04:38,990 --> 00:04:41,870 I need to study and learn what has happened 118 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:43,590 to get us to this point. 119 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:46,470 And so in my realization of that, 120 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:49,150 I have been studying the legacies of 121 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:51,670 different black people throughout the world 122 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:53,910 who have resisted the circumstances that 123 00:04:53,910 --> 00:04:55,920 they've lived through because I've been 124 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,280 wondering, like, how did these people who 125 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,240 lived 60 years ago that were getting hosed 126 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,600 down by, you know, water hoses and dogs and 127 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,680 all of these things and lynchings and all of 128 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,600 the horrific things that have happened. 129 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,600 How did these people endure, 130 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,640 and what lessons can we take from their 131 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,960 journeys? And how can what they went through 132 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,880 inspire us in this moment? 133 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,760 Where for me, I know when I open up my phone, 134 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,760 it's just I feel bombarded with so much news 135 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,240 and this happening and that happening and 136 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,320 that, and it feels really overwhelming. 137 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,360 And so I in writing this book, 138 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,520 it was very cathartic for me because it 139 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,600 reminded me of the power and the strength 140 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,400 that each of us have and that, 141 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,880 you know, it's the people who came before us 142 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,040 have been able to withstand and endure. 143 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,960 Then we can definitely push through. 144 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,480 And just so thinking about, 145 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,080 like, what are the lessons that they can 146 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,320 teach us is really what inspired me to write 147 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,000 this book. 148 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:52,560 Carol Cox: And to your point, Janice, 149 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,330 about feeling overwhelmed because the news 150 00:05:55,330 --> 00:05:56,490 cycle just speeds up. 151 00:05:56,490 --> 00:05:59,610 And then one tragedy just kind of falls into 152 00:05:59,610 --> 00:06:00,970 the next one. And then we forget, 153 00:06:01,010 --> 00:06:02,210 literally forget about the thing that 154 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:04,170 happened a week or two before. 155 00:06:04,210 --> 00:06:05,730 And I feel like for so many of us, 156 00:06:05,730 --> 00:06:07,450 and I count myself among them, 157 00:06:07,490 --> 00:06:09,330 feeling powerlessness, 158 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:11,290 feeling like, what can we do? 159 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:13,970 It's like a drop in the ocean. 160 00:06:14,010 --> 00:06:15,650 You know, as far as feeling like there's 161 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:18,130 things that we can do or agency that we have. 162 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:21,730 And I feel like reading your book also to 163 00:06:21,770 --> 00:06:22,930 remind me, like you said, 164 00:06:22,970 --> 00:06:24,850 of all the people who have come before and 165 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:27,570 how they found power and agency and what they 166 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:29,450 were doing. And as soon as I opened up the 167 00:06:29,450 --> 00:06:32,530 book and I saw the table of contents with 168 00:06:32,530 --> 00:06:34,850 these different people's names, 169 00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:36,410 you know, from from history, 170 00:06:36,450 --> 00:06:39,090 you know, from relatively recent modern 171 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:41,450 history, right? But then how you structured 172 00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:43,850 it in these different chapters for things 173 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:45,810 that they did and that we can do, 174 00:06:45,850 --> 00:06:47,130 whether it's documenting, 175 00:06:47,130 --> 00:06:49,290 storytelling, coalition building, 176 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:52,460 etc.. And so what gave you the idea to 177 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:54,100 structure the book in that way? 178 00:06:54,780 --> 00:06:57,820 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. You know, I was speaking with my editor 179 00:06:57,820 --> 00:07:00,460 and my the editor that I work with. 180 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:02,780 He actually started the publishing company, 181 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:04,540 and he's an older white male. 182 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:07,340 And he to me, he felt like my grandfather 183 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:09,940 because he was very, just like, 184 00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:11,820 so helpful in the process. 185 00:07:11,820 --> 00:07:14,780 And he he was like, I am an advocate. 186 00:07:14,980 --> 00:07:17,860 I want to help the most marginalized. 187 00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:20,700 And I know that maybe you are writing this 188 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:23,580 book for a particular segment of the 189 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:25,780 population, but I'm inspired by these 190 00:07:25,780 --> 00:07:28,540 stories. So what are the lessons that people 191 00:07:28,540 --> 00:07:31,020 can really pull from these individuals? 192 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:32,900 Because I think when I wrote it, 193 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:36,300 I was like, I had one person in mind or a few 194 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:38,980 people in mind, and I had multiple lessons 195 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:41,020 that we could pull from them. But I think 196 00:07:41,020 --> 00:07:44,420 distilling it down to one specific thing made 197 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:45,860 it feel more tangible, 198 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:49,020 because I think we hear about these people or 199 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:51,220 we read about these historical figures and 200 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:52,260 we're like, oh my gosh, 201 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:54,300 they accomplished so many really, 202 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:55,780 really amazing things. 203 00:07:55,900 --> 00:07:57,940 How did, for example, someone like Harriet 204 00:07:57,980 --> 00:08:01,100 Tubman do what she did during the Underground 205 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:03,820 Railroad, and how was she able to play such 206 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:05,860 an instrumental role? And it feels like out 207 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:07,700 of reach for us because it's like, 208 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:10,340 well, I'm just one person working at this 209 00:08:10,340 --> 00:08:12,580 place and trying to get my speaking business 210 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:15,380 off the ground. What can I realistically do? 211 00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:17,700 And so in talking with my editor, 212 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,780 he was like, what is one thing that people 213 00:08:20,780 --> 00:08:23,940 can actually pull out of the stories of these 214 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:26,580 historical figures who seem so amazing and so 215 00:08:26,580 --> 00:08:29,420 great? But what is one thing that is tangible 216 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:31,580 and realistic? And so I think that's where 217 00:08:31,660 --> 00:08:33,180 the theme started to emerge, 218 00:08:33,180 --> 00:08:34,740 because I started to notice that, 219 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:36,420 okay, a lot of these figures, 220 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:39,900 for example, have utilized coalition building 221 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:42,580 and realized that there's a lot of power in 222 00:08:42,580 --> 00:08:44,500 community and leaning on your community. 223 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:46,900 And I know you as somebody who's built this 224 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:48,700 really powerful community here. 225 00:08:49,110 --> 00:08:51,350 You understand the power of of building these 226 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:53,630 coalitions of people who have these same 227 00:08:53,630 --> 00:08:55,230 interests, and you're trying to lift each 228 00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:57,950 other up. And so I think that a lot of the 229 00:08:57,950 --> 00:09:00,830 people who have resisted throughout time have 230 00:09:00,830 --> 00:09:02,830 utilized the same strategies. 231 00:09:02,830 --> 00:09:05,550 And so I think that that's when I started to 232 00:09:05,550 --> 00:09:07,750 see these themes and patterns that were 233 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:10,910 emerging. So I think it was great to kind of 234 00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:13,710 see these are very simple things that all of 235 00:09:13,710 --> 00:09:15,110 us can do storytelling. 236 00:09:15,150 --> 00:09:18,510 Right. And and just sharing what has happened 237 00:09:18,510 --> 00:09:20,750 in our lives and sharing our story and how 238 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:22,390 inspirational that is, 239 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:24,710 especially if you're somebody who has a 240 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:26,670 marginalized voice, whose voice doesn't get 241 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:27,790 heard often. 242 00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:29,670 You know, there's a lot of power in people 243 00:09:29,710 --> 00:09:31,750 being able to read your truth and read your 244 00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:34,630 story. And I think what we're seeing now is 245 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:37,510 that there is a lot of attempts to erase the 246 00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:39,630 stories of different people and erase black 247 00:09:39,630 --> 00:09:42,750 history. And so I think that what this book, 248 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:45,070 I hope inspires people to understand is that 249 00:09:45,070 --> 00:09:47,680 there is power in telling your story and 250 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,560 having your voice in whatever ways, 251 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:52,600 whether that's a podcast or a book or or how 252 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,280 you show up online or what you do within your 253 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,000 community. And so I think that there are, 254 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,600 I hope, really tangible takeaways for people 255 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 to see that all of these things are can be 256 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,280 very simple and even micro resistance 257 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,400 strategies that you can utilize every day in 258 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,240 your life and in your community. 259 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,920 Carol Cox: Yes. And to your point about storytelling, I 260 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,960 wanted to make sure we we talked about that 261 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,280 because I talk quite a bit about storytelling 262 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,040 here on the podcast and with the work that we 263 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,160 do with our clients, because especially 264 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:24,800 because so many of the women that we work 265 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,520 with, they're high achieving, 266 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,480 educated, credentialed women and they're 267 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,760 oftentimes speaking related to their 268 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,200 expertise or whatever their topic is. 269 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,560 And we've almost been trained out of personal 270 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,680 storytelling in corporate culture or in 271 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,360 business culture. 272 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,720 So we feel like somehow it's not appropriate 273 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,850 or it's not going to be looked upon well. 274 00:10:48,130 --> 00:10:51,090 But I know every time I go to to a conference 275 00:10:51,090 --> 00:10:52,970 or an event and I hear a speaker just share a 276 00:10:52,970 --> 00:10:55,170 little bit about something personal or like 277 00:10:55,210 --> 00:10:56,850 their journey or where they came from and 278 00:10:56,850 --> 00:10:58,810 what they've discovered about themselves. 279 00:10:58,970 --> 00:11:01,090 I feel a greater connection with them, 280 00:11:01,130 --> 00:11:04,290 more so than any list of expertise that they 281 00:11:04,290 --> 00:11:05,570 could, that they could do. 282 00:11:05,570 --> 00:11:08,610 And then to your point about the erasure of 283 00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:10,690 black history and the erasure of stories, 284 00:11:10,690 --> 00:11:12,530 and that's why I studied history, 285 00:11:12,530 --> 00:11:14,930 because I wanted to find the women in the 286 00:11:14,930 --> 00:11:16,770 stories, because all the history that I 287 00:11:16,810 --> 00:11:19,810 learned growing up, women were barely there, 288 00:11:20,010 --> 00:11:21,770 much less black people or marginalized 289 00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:23,810 people. Their stories weren't there. 290 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:25,490 They were talked about, 291 00:11:25,530 --> 00:11:27,730 but they weren't able to tell their stories. 292 00:11:27,730 --> 00:11:29,810 And so that's why I love that you included 293 00:11:29,810 --> 00:11:32,770 storytelling as a form of resistance in your 294 00:11:32,770 --> 00:11:35,290 book. So but let's before we go more into the 295 00:11:35,290 --> 00:11:37,410 book, I want to back up and ask you because I 296 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:39,690 think this will be helpful for the listeners 297 00:11:39,690 --> 00:11:42,010 who probably enjoy public speaking. 298 00:11:42,010 --> 00:11:44,610 They want to work on their keynote or do a 299 00:11:44,690 --> 00:11:47,570 Ted talk, or maybe do lead generation 300 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:49,130 presentations for their business, 301 00:11:49,130 --> 00:11:51,290 and maybe some of them also have the inkling 302 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:53,810 that they would like to write a book one day. 303 00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:55,410 Now, you've written a lot, 304 00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:57,970 Janice. Over 500 articles just for Forbes. 305 00:11:57,970 --> 00:11:59,570 You have an email newsletter. You're active 306 00:11:59,570 --> 00:12:02,930 on LinkedIn. Why did you decide that a book 307 00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:06,530 was the right medium for sharing this 308 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:09,050 message? Like, why do books still matter in 309 00:12:09,050 --> 00:12:11,690 this day of, you know, TikTok videos that 310 00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:13,850 last for 30s and people are constantly 311 00:12:13,850 --> 00:12:15,930 scrolling versus reading an entire book? 312 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:19,970 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I actually think that this book was my 313 00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:23,250 way of documenting as resistance because, 314 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:26,730 um, I've seen that there has been a move, 315 00:12:26,770 --> 00:12:29,330 especially among younger generations, 316 00:12:29,330 --> 00:12:33,090 and Gen Z and Gen Alpha have really moved 317 00:12:33,090 --> 00:12:35,010 away from or they're trying to move away from 318 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:37,530 technology. And so, you know, 319 00:12:37,570 --> 00:12:40,130 I've been reading a lot of these think pieces 320 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:42,370 about how people feel like we own nothing 321 00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:45,020 now. Right. You know, so when you buy a car 322 00:12:45,380 --> 00:12:47,820 now, they're making you pay for a 323 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:50,620 subscription to get maybe like heated seats 324 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,660 or these different perks that used to come 325 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:55,860 with just buying and owning a car. 326 00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:58,500 And, you know, we see what has happened with 327 00:12:58,540 --> 00:12:59,820 the streaming services. 328 00:12:59,860 --> 00:13:02,580 And, you know, I we don't even have me and my 329 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:04,180 partner don't even have cable. 330 00:13:04,340 --> 00:13:06,220 Um, but everything is a streaming service. 331 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:07,780 Everything is just, you know, 332 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:09,260 you have you don't own anything, 333 00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:10,380 you don't own any music. 334 00:13:10,380 --> 00:13:12,580 And I remember being in college and 335 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:15,180 downloading music and you actually owned it. 336 00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:16,860 You could put it into your car. 337 00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:19,860 But now if there is an outage at your 338 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:22,060 favorite music streaming service, 339 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,060 you can't listen to the songs that you 340 00:13:24,060 --> 00:13:25,580 purchased or that you paid for. 341 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:28,420 And even, you know, I'm a huge audiobook fan. 342 00:13:28,540 --> 00:13:31,540 But if they change the terms and conditions, 343 00:13:31,540 --> 00:13:34,260 what if your audiobooks disappear and you 344 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:36,860 paid for them but you don't actually own 345 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,860 them? So I do think that having physical 346 00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:40,940 copies of things, especially now, 347 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:44,750 you know, where, um, everything is digitized 348 00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:46,390 and we don't really own anything. There's a 349 00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:48,590 lot of power in physically having, 350 00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:51,430 like, okay, I have a copy of this book and no 351 00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:53,390 one can take that away from me. 352 00:13:53,390 --> 00:13:55,350 And so I do still think books matter. 353 00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:57,510 And I think that people are actually moving 354 00:13:57,550 --> 00:14:00,150 toward books in an age where everything is 355 00:14:00,150 --> 00:14:02,390 digital. People want the physical copies. 356 00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:05,190 People want to go back and refer to things, 357 00:14:05,190 --> 00:14:07,990 and you can't quite do that in the Kindle 358 00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:10,070 versions. And I've just been, 359 00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:12,630 um, diving back into physical books because 360 00:14:12,670 --> 00:14:14,950 I'm not a physical book person, 361 00:14:14,950 --> 00:14:17,230 surprisingly. I just feel like I don't have 362 00:14:17,230 --> 00:14:19,990 the time. Um, but my attention span, 363 00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:21,990 I've noticed, has gotten a lot better since 364 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:25,430 I've started rereading physical books again. 365 00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:28,270 Because when I'm on the Kindle or I'm doing 366 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:30,270 the audiobook, I'm multitasking, 367 00:14:30,270 --> 00:14:32,150 so I'm not actually processing what I'm 368 00:14:32,510 --> 00:14:34,950 reading. And so I do think in the age and the 369 00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:36,950 era that we are in where we don't actually 370 00:14:36,990 --> 00:14:39,110 own anything, there's power in having 371 00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:41,160 physical things and physical books. 372 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:42,840 Carol Cox: Oh, I love that. 373 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,480 And that actually makes me feel a little bit 374 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,040 better about the younger generations, because 375 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,280 I'm an avid reader. I always have been, 376 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,000 but I read all on Kindle because it's easy. 377 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,440 I can make the font big right versus right. 378 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,400 But I do. You know, I remember when I was 379 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,280 going to get my PhD in history, 380 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,520 like I had only physical books, 381 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,720 like the Kindle didn't even exist back then. 382 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,880 But it's true because you could thumb through 383 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,320 them and dog ear them and highlight and go 384 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,240 find the places and you could see the 385 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,360 connections. 386 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:12,680 Yeah, I could see the connections between 387 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,480 different books that I was reading. 388 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,680 And so I pre-ordered your your book, 389 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,240 Janice. So I'll be received in the mail once 390 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,360 it comes up. So I'm very excited to to read 391 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:22,720 the print version of it as well. 392 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,120 Okay. So let's dive into some more of the key 393 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,160 themes from the book. 394 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,440 So you talk, you know, 395 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,080 right off the bat about this anti die 396 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,760 backlash that we're in. 397 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,480 And you mentioned at the beginning of our 398 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,720 conversation that things tend to be cyclical. 399 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,490 So were you surprised by the backlash, 400 00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:43,970 or have you been surprised by maybe the the 401 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:47,570 ferocity and the just the universality of the 402 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,370 backlash? 403 00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:51,770 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I would say I wasn't really surprised 404 00:15:51,770 --> 00:15:54,210 because there were some indications that 405 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:56,930 things were reaching this point. 406 00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:59,210 You know, if you looked at the peak in 407 00:15:59,210 --> 00:16:03,090 interest in die in the summer of 2020 and 408 00:16:03,090 --> 00:16:05,170 2021 and 2022. 409 00:16:05,170 --> 00:16:08,050 And then there was like at the end of 2022 410 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,330 and early 2023, there was I was starting to 411 00:16:11,370 --> 00:16:15,010 see declines or retreats rather from die, 412 00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:16,770 and there was less interest. 413 00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:19,370 And I think that it was a quote unquote hot 414 00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:21,450 topic, and people were really interested in 415 00:16:21,450 --> 00:16:24,130 it because everyone was talking about it. 416 00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:27,370 And then companies felt like they didn't need 417 00:16:27,370 --> 00:16:30,210 to continue to invest in die. 418 00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:32,850 And so it was something that a lot of 419 00:16:32,850 --> 00:16:34,410 companies started to retreat from. 420 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:36,610 And I think with this current administration 421 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:38,290 that is very anti die. 422 00:16:38,730 --> 00:16:41,130 And there's been a lot of anti die 423 00:16:41,170 --> 00:16:42,370 legislation. 424 00:16:42,370 --> 00:16:45,170 I think people companies felt like that gave 425 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:48,410 them permission to to just completely do away 426 00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:52,170 with it. And so I would say most people who 427 00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:54,490 have any sort of understanding of history 428 00:16:54,530 --> 00:16:57,410 know that any time there is any progress, 429 00:16:57,410 --> 00:17:00,050 whether that is for women or black people or 430 00:17:00,050 --> 00:17:03,610 any sort of underrepresented and marginalized 431 00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:06,370 community, there is going to also be this 432 00:17:06,370 --> 00:17:08,890 backlash and this group of people that don't 433 00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:11,090 want to see that progress happen. 434 00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:14,250 And so we see how hard it has been for 435 00:17:14,450 --> 00:17:17,450 different marginalized communities to be able 436 00:17:17,450 --> 00:17:19,570 to gain rights and fight for their rights. 437 00:17:19,570 --> 00:17:21,690 And we saw what happened with women fighting 438 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:23,970 for our rights to vote and black people 439 00:17:23,970 --> 00:17:26,130 fighting for civil rights and all of these 440 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:28,610 things. And so I think that if you understand 441 00:17:28,610 --> 00:17:31,170 how history works, you'll see that everything 442 00:17:31,210 --> 00:17:32,370 happens in a cycle. 443 00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:34,970 And I do think that the pendulum will swing 444 00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:37,780 back. You know, we see things are very anti 445 00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:41,340 die right now. But I do feel like within a 446 00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:42,700 company or corporation, 447 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:44,380 the fact of the matter is that there are 448 00:17:44,380 --> 00:17:46,260 different people in your company, 449 00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:49,140 and if you want every employee to feel like 450 00:17:49,140 --> 00:17:52,420 they have an equal opportunity to advance and 451 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:53,940 that they have the tools that they need to 452 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:56,220 succeed, you need to prioritize, 453 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:58,700 you know, what are the strategies we can 454 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,380 utilize to make sure everybody is treated 455 00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:03,620 fairly and equitably, and everyone is paid 456 00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:05,860 equitably. And so that is something that is 457 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:08,260 not going to go away just because of an 458 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,900 administration or just because some people 459 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,060 don't like it. 460 00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:14,660 And so I think that that is what people are 461 00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:17,460 starting to realize is it's not just like, 462 00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:20,180 hey, we want to make sure black people are 463 00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:24,140 hired equitably, but it's also if a person is 464 00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:27,260 breastfeeding, do they have access to a room 465 00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:29,260 to breastfeed in the workplace or do. 466 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:31,540 Are people able to, you know, 467 00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:33,940 are women being paid at the same rates as 468 00:18:33,980 --> 00:18:37,150 their counterparts? And so di encompasses all 469 00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:39,030 of that. And so I think that I, 470 00:18:39,070 --> 00:18:41,390 I'm such a big advocate of Di and I'm like, 471 00:18:41,390 --> 00:18:44,470 Di is beneficial for all of us. 472 00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:46,430 And so I think that, um, 473 00:18:46,550 --> 00:18:48,750 I know that the pendulum will swing back and 474 00:18:48,750 --> 00:18:50,630 companies will start to realize again, 475 00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:52,550 this work is important and we can't just 476 00:18:52,550 --> 00:18:53,430 throw it away. 477 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:56,910 Carol Cox: Um, and so, Janice, a couple of things come 478 00:18:56,910 --> 00:18:58,950 to mind. First, I was listening to something 479 00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:00,230 recently, and they were having this 480 00:19:00,230 --> 00:19:02,550 discussion about this backlash to di, 481 00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:06,030 and they said that I forget I forget who who 482 00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:07,190 the person was, of course, 483 00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:09,190 it was on a podcast, because that's all I do 484 00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:11,790 during the morning when I'm like cleaning and 485 00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:13,830 getting ready, listening to podcasts. And she 486 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,070 said something to the effect of the, 487 00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:18,190 the, the problem. And I'm using the word 488 00:19:18,190 --> 00:19:19,750 problem. But the problem with, say, 489 00:19:19,790 --> 00:19:21,950 like Black Lives Matter movement in the MeToo 490 00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:24,710 movement and that like, you know, 2014 to say 491 00:19:24,750 --> 00:19:27,030 2020 ish era was that there was no 492 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:29,790 legislation that actually got passed. 493 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:32,510 It was just a bunch of companies who decided 494 00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:35,640 on their own voluntarily to put these things 495 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,480 into practice because it made them look good, 496 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,760 right? It helped with employee hiring and 497 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,120 retention. Some of the companies had good 498 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:43,480 meaning behind it. Some of them did it 499 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,240 because they felt like they had to. 500 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,760 But nothing. But it wasn't able to stick 501 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:48,960 because it didn't have, 502 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,880 like, real teeth behind it. 503 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,720 Do you have you seen the same thing? 504 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,600 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. That's actually I've never heard that 505 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,560 argument before, but that's actually a very 506 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,880 valid point. 507 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,720 Um, where there hasn't there hadn't been, 508 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,400 I'm thinking in the period from 2020 to maybe 509 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,320 2023, there wasn't any significant sort of 510 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:11,000 legislation. There were a lot of cities that 511 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,920 implemented things like a racial equity, 512 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,120 um, coalition, um, as part of a city or a 513 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,400 town or state. 514 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,680 So there were a lot of those. 515 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,920 I know that, um, um, former President Joe 516 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,200 Biden had some sort of like, 517 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,720 racial equity commission on his 518 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:28,920 administration. 519 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,840 But there as far as, like specific 520 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,250 legislation, there wasn't any that I can 521 00:20:34,290 --> 00:20:37,410 think of that is comparable to what was 522 00:20:37,410 --> 00:20:39,730 implemented in the 1960s. 523 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:43,490 So I think that that's a really valid point 524 00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:46,770 where that kind of makes it easier to undo 525 00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:48,930 and dismantle when there isn't anything sort 526 00:20:48,930 --> 00:20:52,370 of solid, um, forcing people to ensure, 527 00:20:52,410 --> 00:20:53,690 hey, we have, you know, 528 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:55,330 there's things from the 1960s, 529 00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:58,050 but nothing that was really in that period, 530 00:20:58,130 --> 00:21:01,010 um, post the murder of George Floyd. 531 00:21:01,410 --> 00:21:03,090 Carol Cox: Um, right. Because we think of like title 532 00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:04,930 seven, title nine, these things that have 533 00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:06,690 been that are in law but that have made 534 00:21:06,690 --> 00:21:09,610 things more equitable and and if they're not, 535 00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:11,850 then people can sue and it goes to and it 536 00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:14,090 goes to court. And then I remember at the end 537 00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:16,410 of President Biden's term that there was a 538 00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:18,890 push for him to sign the Equal Rights 539 00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:20,370 Amendment into law. 540 00:21:20,410 --> 00:21:22,370 But there's, you know, some, some controversy 541 00:21:22,370 --> 00:21:23,730 about whether or not because of the time 542 00:21:23,770 --> 00:21:25,770 frame and things like that. But he didn't do 543 00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:27,650 it, even though I think he probably should 544 00:21:27,650 --> 00:21:29,490 have, you know, and then have it settle 545 00:21:29,530 --> 00:21:31,650 because we have no equal rights amendment for 546 00:21:31,650 --> 00:21:32,930 women in this country. 547 00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:34,570 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 548 00:21:34,570 --> 00:21:37,450 And so there wasn't a lot that I know of. 549 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:40,130 You know, I'm like trying to think through 550 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:41,850 the different laws. 551 00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:45,810 I know that, um, they were looking into 552 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:49,410 different, um, maternal mortality, 553 00:21:49,930 --> 00:21:53,810 um, legislation or, or I wouldn't say it was 554 00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:56,370 legislation, but policies to support maternal 555 00:21:56,370 --> 00:21:58,770 mortality, because we have we're a quote 556 00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:00,370 unquote, developed nation, and we have the 557 00:22:00,370 --> 00:22:04,610 most abysmal rates for maternal health in the 558 00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:06,490 US, especially for black women. 559 00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:08,810 So I know that there were some initiatives 560 00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:10,450 that were put forth, but I don't know if 561 00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:12,770 anything was like a law per se. 562 00:22:13,170 --> 00:22:15,290 So I do think that that is a really, 563 00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:17,650 really great point that that person on the 564 00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:19,850 podcast made where there wasn't actually a 565 00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:22,490 lot of legislation. I know people pushed for 566 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:24,050 different legislation. 567 00:22:24,050 --> 00:22:25,690 I know that there was the pushing of like 568 00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:27,250 there was some sort of, um, 569 00:22:27,290 --> 00:22:29,290 George Floyd act that they were trying to get 570 00:22:29,290 --> 00:22:30,940 passed. I know they were trying to get an 571 00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:32,460 anti-lynching law passed, 572 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:34,740 and I think that that did pass maybe at the 573 00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:36,260 end of Biden's term. 574 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:40,100 Um, but I don't know how effective that 575 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:42,740 legislation has actually been. 576 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:46,420 Carol Cox: Mhm. Yeah. Well, and even more reason to get 577 00:22:46,420 --> 00:22:48,700 more women and underrepresented people into 578 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,180 politics and into Congress so that they can 579 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:55,260 have that impact. So let's talk a little bit 580 00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:57,700 more about what it looks like to rise and 581 00:22:57,700 --> 00:22:58,940 resist. And I know, Janice, 582 00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:02,220 you mostly focus on workplaces because that's 583 00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:03,660 what you do in your consulting. 584 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:06,660 And so thinking about for listeners who maybe 585 00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:08,300 are executives or, you know, 586 00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:10,820 they work within companies or even those who 587 00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:12,740 are have their own businesses that they 588 00:23:12,740 --> 00:23:14,780 consult within companies and within their 589 00:23:14,780 --> 00:23:17,300 industries. What are some things that they 590 00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,780 can either be looking for or things that they 591 00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:23,180 can do that will will give them that sense of 592 00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:26,140 agency back, but also be something positive 593 00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:28,060 with that they can do within their workplace, 594 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:30,270 especially to support those around them. 595 00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:32,910 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I think there's so many things. 596 00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:35,430 Like as a as a business owner, 597 00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:38,190 like, for example, I've been following what's 598 00:23:38,190 --> 00:23:40,430 happening. What what has been happening with 599 00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:42,510 the ice presence in, um, 600 00:23:42,510 --> 00:23:44,870 Minneapolis and Minnesota in general. 601 00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:46,310 And I've been seeing, um, 602 00:23:46,350 --> 00:23:47,750 you know, there have been business owners 603 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:50,750 that have opened their stores up for the 604 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:52,430 local community, you know, 605 00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:54,830 for people who want to exercise their right 606 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:57,270 to protest. There are business owners that 607 00:23:57,270 --> 00:23:59,230 are like, we know that these are below zero 608 00:23:59,230 --> 00:24:01,430 temperatures. You can come into our 609 00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:04,990 establishment and warm your hands or get free 610 00:24:04,990 --> 00:24:08,110 food. And so this is a really small and 611 00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:12,070 impactful way to just rise and resist that. 612 00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:14,030 I don't think people think about like as a 613 00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:15,750 business owner, right. So there are so many 614 00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:18,070 things that you could do as a business owner 615 00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:21,310 that are more, um, that are more micro, 616 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:23,790 that seem more micro, but make a huge impact. 617 00:24:23,790 --> 00:24:26,470 But I think as an individual even like 618 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,240 recognizing the power that you have in your 619 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,240 workplace, right? If you're somebody, even if 620 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,560 you're a more junior level employee, 621 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,720 if you're somebody who is influential and who 622 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,160 people listen to and who has a voice, 623 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,360 you can use that voice to advocate for 624 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:43,600 different things, right? 625 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,720 You can use that voice to I've. 626 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:46,960 I've had it happen to me. 627 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,160 And it's often usually women who anytime I've 628 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,240 had a speaking engagement within an 629 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,000 organization or an institution, 630 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,640 I would say 80% of the time it has been a 631 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:57,960 woman that has brought me in. 632 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,520 And so using your voice to advocate for 633 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,960 another person and bring them in and amplify 634 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,560 their voice, you know, 635 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,640 is another thing that you can do. But even 636 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,560 like speaking up in a meeting when this 637 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,840 happens a lot to women, 638 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,040 where we are interrupted when we say things 639 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,120 in the workplace, we are cut off our ideas 640 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:22,000 and our contributions aren't valued as much. 641 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,640 And so just speaking up for another person 642 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,160 when you see that they are being erased or 643 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:29,880 their voices being silenced in a 644 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,000 conversation. And so I think just that 645 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,360 amplification is so, so important and so 646 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,200 powerful. And people might say, 647 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,760 well, I'm just one person. 648 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,840 I'm just a junior employee who just started 649 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,520 what what can I do? 650 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,360 I can't really make a difference. But I think 651 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,360 that if you look at just even through 652 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,200 history, there are so many things that people 653 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,440 accomplished that seemed impossible before 654 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:54,960 they actually accomplished it. 655 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,640 But now we look back and we're like, 656 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:57,880 oh, of course that happened, 657 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,760 right? And so I think that there are so many 658 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,960 small things we can do, 659 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,480 whether it's amplifying someone's voice or 660 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,160 even, you know, something that I've been 661 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,320 doing is I have a pretty robust community on 662 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,120 LinkedIn. And anytime somebody, 663 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,160 especially people who've lost their jobs, 664 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,000 reach out to me and they're like, 665 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,240 I would love to introduce to be introduced to 666 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,600 Carol Cox. You know, I love her podcast. 667 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Can you make an introduction? 668 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,330 I will do that even if I don't know the 669 00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:28,730 person. And I actually did that for a friend 670 00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:30,250 of mine who was transitioning out of the 671 00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:32,410 Army, and she really wanted to work at 672 00:26:32,410 --> 00:26:34,330 Deloitte, and that was like her dream job. 673 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:36,650 And so I looked through my my connections on 674 00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:37,810 LinkedIn and I was like, 675 00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:40,610 I see I'm connected with a couple people who 676 00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:43,930 are, um, higher executives at Deloitte. 677 00:26:43,930 --> 00:26:45,490 I reached out to one person. 678 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:47,050 We're connected. I don't know how. 679 00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:49,370 I've never met or talked to this person. 680 00:26:49,370 --> 00:26:51,890 I messaged him and he put me in touch with 681 00:26:51,890 --> 00:26:54,050 somebody else. And long story short, 682 00:26:54,170 --> 00:26:56,370 my friend was able to connect with that 683 00:26:56,370 --> 00:26:58,770 person, and she ended up getting the job at 684 00:26:58,770 --> 00:27:01,130 Deloitte just from like a few LinkedIn 685 00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:03,690 connections. So even something small like 686 00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:06,570 that, where you might be somebody who is a 687 00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:08,490 business owner, you don't work in corporate, 688 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:10,370 but you're connected with somebody, 689 00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:13,450 and even offering to make those introductions 690 00:27:13,450 --> 00:27:15,210 can be really, really powerful. Because I 691 00:27:15,210 --> 00:27:18,370 think whether you work in corporate or you're 692 00:27:18,370 --> 00:27:20,250 a speaker or a consultant, 693 00:27:20,290 --> 00:27:22,570 we all know that connections are very 694 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:24,700 powerful and you're not going to get an 695 00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:27,060 opportunity or you're not going to be 696 00:27:27,060 --> 00:27:30,140 promoted, or I don't want to say you won't 697 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:32,780 be, but I say, I say that the likelihood of 698 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:35,380 getting promoted or getting opportunities is 699 00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:37,860 higher when you are connected with different 700 00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:40,460 people. And so I think really prioritizing 701 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:42,300 those connections is important, and even 702 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:44,620 offering to make those connections whenever 703 00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:47,940 possible. Malcolm Gladwell talked about this 704 00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:50,060 in his book. I think it was in The Tipping 705 00:27:50,060 --> 00:27:52,180 Point. He talked about those people that are 706 00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:55,300 like the connectors, and I consider myself 707 00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:57,420 one of those people, or I try to be somebody 708 00:27:57,420 --> 00:27:59,820 who tries to make connections between 709 00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:01,900 different people. And so something even as 710 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:04,620 small as that, you could open the door to an 711 00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:06,820 opportunity that someone would have never had 712 00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:09,300 otherwise. So I don't want us to think that 713 00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:11,940 resistance has to be this, 714 00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:15,660 excuse me, large, grand actions. 715 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:17,780 It could be something as small as making an 716 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:20,740 introduction or amplifying somebody's voice 717 00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:24,230 online or in a meeting so that more people 718 00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:26,350 can can hear them and they can gain more 719 00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:27,190 visibility. 720 00:28:27,670 --> 00:28:28,750 Carol Cox: Oh, I love that, Janice. 721 00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:30,870 What a great, great suggestions. 722 00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:33,230 And I think about sometimes when people will 723 00:28:33,390 --> 00:28:35,830 reach out to me because they want me to speak 724 00:28:35,830 --> 00:28:37,750 at something and I'm not available for 725 00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:40,190 whatever reason, I will oftentimes then send 726 00:28:40,190 --> 00:28:42,430 them back recommendations of other speakers, 727 00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:44,070 you know, women speakers and, 728 00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:46,270 and, you know, black or Hispanic women 729 00:28:46,270 --> 00:28:48,430 speakers. I'm like, no, she would be great 730 00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:50,350 because I want to give these other women 731 00:28:50,350 --> 00:28:52,070 these opportunities, too. So I don't just 732 00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:53,870 write back and say, no, sorry, I can't make 733 00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:56,750 it, but then I recommend other women to. 734 00:28:56,790 --> 00:29:00,150 And then I think also to your point is that I 735 00:29:00,150 --> 00:29:02,510 feel like so many of us need to expand what 736 00:29:02,510 --> 00:29:04,350 our network looks like, 737 00:29:04,350 --> 00:29:06,710 because most of the time our networks like 738 00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:08,990 kind of by default, look very much like us 739 00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:10,670 because like attracts like and that's what we 740 00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:13,350 tend to do. So I know I have made a concerted 741 00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:15,350 effort over the years to make sure that my 742 00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:18,590 network looks very much like society looks, 743 00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:19,870 not just looks like me. 744 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,440 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, exactly. 745 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,680 And you know, I know we know all about the 746 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:24,840 like within companies. 747 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,720 They've done, you know, McKinsey and all of 748 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,880 these places have done so much research on 749 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,200 within a corporation like the benefits with 750 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,880 having people who are just from different 751 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,520 backgrounds and think differently and look 752 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,480 differently, and how that makes a company 753 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,760 more innovative, because you don't have this 754 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,760 homogenous group of people thinking the same 755 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,440 way. But I would say even in your friend 756 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,320 group and in your circle of friends in your 757 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,240 community, just the people that you connect 758 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,520 with, being really intentional about 759 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,320 connecting with people who are different from 760 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,120 you. And it's hard because like you said, 761 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,720 like attracts like. 762 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,600 And you know, you if you look at your circle 763 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,000 of friends or your LinkedIn connections, 764 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,120 they're going to look like you. 765 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,680 And so really being intentional and I think 766 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,920 that you have a great opportunity with when 767 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,040 you are reached out to for speaking 768 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,360 engagements, providing other names and other 769 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,720 people who can serve if you can't. 770 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,640 So I think that really being intentional 771 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,760 about that, even the podcast that I listen 772 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,960 to, I really, really try to be intentional 773 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,880 about who I listen to, 774 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,600 you know, because I found myself, 775 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,920 I might have mentioned this in our podcast in 776 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,560 2019, in 2020, but I found that around that 777 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,680 time when I looked at all of the audiobooks 778 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,160 and podcasts I was listening to, 779 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,720 it was all men, and it was all like these 780 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,440 finance experts and finance bros and tech 781 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,360 bros and and I was just like, 782 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,800 I need to diversify the people who I look to 783 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,640 for advice and who I see as an expert. 784 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,800 And so being really intentional about that is 785 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,480 important. 786 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,080 Carol Cox: Yes. Well, I have I discovered the same 787 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,420 thing. I did this challenge right in March 788 00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:03,920 2020 as the pandemic was starting that I had 789 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,640 planned before then called Choosing Women's 790 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Voices. And the challenge was right for us to 791 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,760 audit. Like the podcast that we listen to, 792 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,240 the audiobooks we listened to. 793 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040 Like literally, how many women's voices are 794 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,130 we hearing versus men's voices not to discard 795 00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:21,610 the men, but my balance was way off. 796 00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:25,370 It was probably like 80% men versus 20% women 797 00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:26,730 because I listened to a lot of politics 798 00:31:26,730 --> 00:31:28,730 podcasts and technology podcasts. 799 00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:31,170 But there are other podcasts out there that 800 00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:33,770 are by women and with women guests. 801 00:31:33,770 --> 00:31:35,530 So. But just me, myself, 802 00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:38,010 like, I had to be more intentional and seek 803 00:31:38,010 --> 00:31:40,650 out those, those other voices to make sure 804 00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:42,170 that I was listening to them as well. 805 00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:44,170 So speaking of voice, Janice, 806 00:31:44,610 --> 00:31:46,850 let me ask you, how have what has helped you 807 00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:49,250 to define and develop your own voice over the 808 00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:51,890 years? Because clearly you have a very strong 809 00:31:51,890 --> 00:31:53,290 voice. And by that I mean, 810 00:31:53,530 --> 00:31:54,810 you know, what you talk about, 811 00:31:54,810 --> 00:31:56,210 you know what matters to you. 812 00:31:56,210 --> 00:31:58,090 You know, the bigger mission that you have, 813 00:31:58,090 --> 00:32:00,210 you know the impact that you want to make. 814 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:02,210 Obviously, you've done a lot of writing. 815 00:32:02,210 --> 00:32:03,930 So what has helped you over the years to 816 00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:04,930 develop that? 817 00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:07,330 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I would say, um, 818 00:32:07,330 --> 00:32:09,610 I look to other people for inspiration. 819 00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:11,450 I think that there was a time, 820 00:32:11,850 --> 00:32:14,290 if you can believe it, where I was scared 821 00:32:14,290 --> 00:32:16,700 myself to bring things up, 822 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:19,660 and I was not the person that wanted to rock 823 00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,340 the boat. And I know a lot of women who are 824 00:32:22,340 --> 00:32:24,180 listening to this can relate, because I think 825 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,540 we are conditioned in society to be people 826 00:32:26,540 --> 00:32:29,380 pleasers, and I'm the middle child and I'm 827 00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:31,820 very much into like birth order because I do 828 00:32:31,820 --> 00:32:34,580 think that, like, it does play a role if 829 00:32:34,580 --> 00:32:36,740 you're an only child versus an eldest 830 00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:38,220 daughter and all of those things. 831 00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:40,060 And so I'm a middle child and we're supposed 832 00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:41,740 to be like the peacemakers. 833 00:32:42,020 --> 00:32:43,900 But I think that part of being a middle 834 00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:47,780 child, I've been conditioned to be very much 835 00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:50,100 a people pleaser, and I don't like to rock 836 00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:52,660 the boat. And so it's very ironic that I'm 837 00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:54,900 doing the work that I'm doing as somebody 838 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:58,500 who's pushing back and resisting and trying 839 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:00,740 to help people find their voices within their 840 00:33:00,740 --> 00:33:02,580 corporations and push back, 841 00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:06,260 because I struggled with be rocking the boat 842 00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:07,940 earlier in my career. 843 00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:09,980 And when I was younger, I never wanted to be 844 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:11,060 like that person. 845 00:33:11,060 --> 00:33:13,140 I wanted to be agreeable and I wanted to be 846 00:33:13,140 --> 00:33:16,590 likable. And so I think that my mom has been 847 00:33:16,590 --> 00:33:18,510 a huge source of inspiration because she has 848 00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:20,190 always, since I remember, 849 00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:23,150 has been somebody that pushed back when she 850 00:33:23,150 --> 00:33:25,590 saw something happening that was not right. 851 00:33:25,630 --> 00:33:26,790 You know, my mom was a. 852 00:33:26,830 --> 00:33:28,470 Both my parents are educators, 853 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:31,070 and my mom used to be a school teacher, 854 00:33:31,230 --> 00:33:34,230 and she was at schools where the principal 855 00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:36,910 forced her to change a student's grades 856 00:33:37,030 --> 00:33:38,750 because the student was, 857 00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:41,070 like, in line to be valedictorian. 858 00:33:41,270 --> 00:33:43,470 And she my mom was just like, 859 00:33:43,470 --> 00:33:45,070 no, I'm not going to do that. 860 00:33:45,070 --> 00:33:46,830 That's not morally right. 861 00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:49,750 And they did not renew her contract the next 862 00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:51,550 year. And so, you know, 863 00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:53,590 they could have said, oh, her performance and 864 00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:55,870 this and that, but it's like she could have 865 00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:58,030 easily just said she'll change the grade. 866 00:33:58,030 --> 00:33:59,870 Like in the grand scheme of things, 867 00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:01,470 a lot of people would say, 868 00:34:01,470 --> 00:34:03,550 what does it matter to change one student's 869 00:34:03,550 --> 00:34:05,230 grades and keep your job? 870 00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:07,590 But she just had so much integrity that she 871 00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:09,270 was like, I'm not going to do that. And, 872 00:34:09,350 --> 00:34:11,950 you know, she she lost that job opportunity. 873 00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:13,670 And so I think that my mom has been a really 874 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,240 big source of inspiration. 875 00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:16,640 And then I look to other people. 876 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,320 There's so many people that I see who are 877 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,440 fighting for whatever they're fighting for in 878 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,480 their own lives, whether it's for victims of 879 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,840 of violence, um, whether it's people who've 880 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,440 been silenced in their workplace, 881 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,840 whatever it is, I think I look to those 882 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,320 people for inspiration because I think it's 883 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,280 really, really hard to speak up. 884 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880 Um, especially when you're in a situation 885 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,080 where, you know, people aren't going to 886 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,760 listen to you, people aren't going to believe 887 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,800 you. You know, just thinking about all of the 888 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,640 women. There's been a lot of conversations 889 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,760 about domestic violence as of late. 890 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,920 And, um, you know, child violence and 891 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,800 thinking about all of the women and the 892 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,480 people who've come out and said, 893 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:55,880 hey, this person harmed me. 894 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,480 This person who's powerful, 895 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,680 who has a lot of money, 896 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:00,160 who has a lot of visibility, 897 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,240 has harmed me. 898 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,440 And everyone's not believing you and the 899 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,120 courage and the strength that it takes to 900 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,120 come out and say that. And so I think those 901 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,280 people inspire me. 902 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,840 So I see a lot of inspiration in the people 903 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,960 that are able to still speak out and use 904 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,720 their voice, even though they're they're not 905 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,360 listened to and they're not heard and their 906 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,320 stories aren't always amplified. 907 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,440 Carol Cox: Well, Janice, that actually leads me to the 908 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,360 next question that I wanted to ask you, 909 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,400 which relates to this. And it's interesting 910 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:29,880 that I believe in birth order, too. 911 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,600 I'm the oldest. No surprise, 912 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,040 because. 913 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,600 Janice Gassam Asare: You must be very. Organized. 914 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,200 Carol Cox: Very. 915 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:37,560 Janice Gassam Asare: Financially responsible. 916 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,200 Carol Cox: Very adult at a very young age, 917 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,800 like very organized for sure. 918 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,240 And so but, but but to your point, 919 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,400 like so many of us are socialized to be 920 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,920 people pleasers, we don't want to rock the 921 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,480 boat, you know, we want to, 922 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,400 to get along. But I know that as you write in 923 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,880 your new book that you experienced quite a 924 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,480 bit of of unexpected to you backlash and 925 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,120 criticism because of the work that you were 926 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,520 doing. I think there was some like Twitter 927 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,160 mob or something that ended up finding 928 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,880 something. So can you do you mind telling us 929 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,880 that story? And then what did you do to 930 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,210 navigate that? Because, 931 00:36:11,250 --> 00:36:13,050 you know, I've had experiences, 932 00:36:13,090 --> 00:36:15,130 you know, from from doing political analysis 933 00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:18,090 on the TV news, like, but this was like back, 934 00:36:18,330 --> 00:36:20,570 you know, a decade ago when stuff was not 935 00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:21,930 like it is today. 936 00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:23,970 And I just kind of just could ignore the 937 00:36:23,970 --> 00:36:26,250 comments. And luckily there was not mobs of 938 00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:28,850 people, but. So how did you navigate this and 939 00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:30,450 what did what do you recommend to other 940 00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:31,010 women? 941 00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:34,490 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. So I tell the full story in the book. 942 00:36:34,530 --> 00:36:36,850 Um, and I've shared the story online before. 943 00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:40,330 Um, but I actually got attacked by he was 944 00:36:40,330 --> 00:36:42,650 then just a senator from Ohio, 945 00:36:42,690 --> 00:36:45,570 JD Vance. Um, but in 2023, 946 00:36:45,610 --> 00:36:47,930 I, I had a book coming out then called 947 00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:49,770 Decentering Whiteness in the workplace, 948 00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:53,650 which looked at how whiteness culture impacts 949 00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:55,850 the workplace and how everything that we do 950 00:36:55,850 --> 00:36:57,730 in the workplace, whether our policies or our 951 00:36:57,730 --> 00:37:00,930 practices, are rooted in this culture and how 952 00:37:00,930 --> 00:37:02,890 it negatively impacts our workplaces. 953 00:37:02,890 --> 00:37:05,570 So I wrote an article that was centered on 954 00:37:05,570 --> 00:37:07,330 some of the things I talked about in the 955 00:37:07,330 --> 00:37:09,780 book. A month after I wrote the article, 956 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:11,500 nothing happened, everything was fine. 957 00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:14,980 And I remember around Thanksgiving of 2023, 958 00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:17,740 Forbes tweeted the article and they posted it 959 00:37:17,740 --> 00:37:19,380 on their Facebook and LinkedIn. 960 00:37:19,380 --> 00:37:21,940 And it got a ton of backlash because of the 961 00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:23,020 title. Right? 962 00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:25,260 And the title was like something like three 963 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:27,220 Ways to De-center Whiteness in Your 964 00:37:27,220 --> 00:37:29,420 workplace. And when they tweeted it, 965 00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:30,580 it went viral. 966 00:37:30,780 --> 00:37:34,180 And, uh, Vivek Ramaswamy and JD Vance and a 967 00:37:34,180 --> 00:37:37,340 bunch of, um, people on the right saw the 968 00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:39,620 title and they were disparaging me, 969 00:37:39,620 --> 00:37:42,700 and Fox News did some hit pieces on me and 970 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:44,660 all of these right wing New York posts, 971 00:37:44,660 --> 00:37:46,620 and all of them did some hit pieces on me. 972 00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:49,860 And, um, you know, JD Vance basically said he 973 00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:53,220 was going to investigate my consultancy and 974 00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:56,540 it was a lot. And I'm kind of used to getting 975 00:37:57,060 --> 00:37:59,740 online backlash because I've written articles 976 00:37:59,740 --> 00:38:02,980 before where I've gotten a lot of hate mail. 977 00:38:03,020 --> 00:38:05,260 And, you know, Fox News did a story on me in 978 00:38:05,260 --> 00:38:07,540 2022 because of an article I wrote. 979 00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:09,270 So I'm kind of used to it. 980 00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:11,510 I'm not on Twitter much these days, 981 00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:13,430 but I'm kind of used to like that. 982 00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:15,630 But it wasn't to that level, 983 00:38:15,830 --> 00:38:18,590 and I was maybe 2 or 3 months pregnant when 984 00:38:18,590 --> 00:38:22,350 that happened. And it was just a lot that was 985 00:38:22,350 --> 00:38:24,110 happening at that time. 986 00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:26,870 And so what I actually did was I just didn't 987 00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:29,350 log on and didn't I don't usually read the 988 00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:31,070 comments and see what people are saying, 989 00:38:31,070 --> 00:38:33,150 because I know that, like any time that has 990 00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:35,470 happened to anybody, people are not going to 991 00:38:35,470 --> 00:38:37,030 do that forever. They're going to troll you 992 00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:38,830 for like a week, and then they're going to 993 00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:40,630 get tired and then they're going to go away 994 00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:42,030 and then they're going to find their next 995 00:38:42,030 --> 00:38:43,830 victim. So I would say, 996 00:38:43,870 --> 00:38:46,430 hopefully none of your listeners go through 997 00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:49,950 any type of trolling or victimization online. 998 00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:51,870 But I would definitely say to, 999 00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:53,470 you know, make sure that you protect your 1000 00:38:53,470 --> 00:38:55,110 data and your information. 1001 00:38:55,150 --> 00:38:57,710 You know, I started paying for a service 1002 00:38:57,710 --> 00:39:00,310 where it looks for my information online, 1003 00:39:00,310 --> 00:39:02,070 and if there's any personal information, 1004 00:39:02,070 --> 00:39:03,910 it deletes it because I was like, 1005 00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:07,550 as a woman, as somebody who writes about 1006 00:39:07,550 --> 00:39:08,710 things that could be considered 1007 00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:12,270 controversial. I am an easier target. 1008 00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:14,350 And so how can I protect myself? 1009 00:39:14,350 --> 00:39:16,830 And I think all your listeners who are women 1010 00:39:16,830 --> 00:39:18,430 or who identify as women, 1011 00:39:18,430 --> 00:39:20,270 need to make sure that they're doing things 1012 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:22,270 to protect themselves online, 1013 00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:24,750 because there's so many ways that people can 1014 00:39:24,750 --> 00:39:26,790 access your information if they just know a 1015 00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:27,830 little bit about like, 1016 00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:30,230 okay, Carol Cox, maybe I'm like, 1017 00:39:30,270 --> 00:39:32,030 she lives in Pennsylvania or she lives in 1018 00:39:32,030 --> 00:39:34,190 Florida. Let me Google the city she lives in. 1019 00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:36,070 And then your information pops up, 1020 00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:37,350 your family members pop up. 1021 00:39:37,350 --> 00:39:40,430 And so making sure that you keep yourself 1022 00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:42,990 safe online, you delete any information, 1023 00:39:42,990 --> 00:39:45,750 you delete your data if wherever you can and 1024 00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:46,870 wherever possible. 1025 00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:49,190 Um, and also just know that it's not going to 1026 00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:50,710 last forever, right? 1027 00:39:51,070 --> 00:39:53,030 That if anyone is attacking you or doing 1028 00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:55,350 these hit pieces, they do it for a little bit 1029 00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:56,470 and then they get tired. 1030 00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:58,950 And so I was able to make it through that 1031 00:39:58,990 --> 00:40:00,470 relatively unscathed. 1032 00:40:00,470 --> 00:40:01,710 But that was a tough. 1033 00:40:01,750 --> 00:40:03,630 And prior to that, I wasn't really familiar 1034 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:06,040 with JD Vance. My husband had to tell me, 1035 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,160 oh, he wrote his book Hillbilly Elegy, 1036 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,200 and I was not really familiar with him. 1037 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,560 Um, but now, you know, 1038 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,760 it's just we we see who he is and all of 1039 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,320 that. But I say all that to say that whatever 1040 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:18,760 it is that you're going through, whatever 1041 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,200 trolling, just know that I think it's usually 1042 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,680 a good sign that you're doing something right 1043 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,200 when people are, ah, you've hit a nerve, 1044 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,120 um, when people are doing that to you. 1045 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,720 But also it doesn't last forever. 1046 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:32,200 And then also as women, 1047 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,360 making sure you're keeping yourself safe and 1048 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,520 you're really mindful of what you post 1049 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,560 online, because all of that can be used and 1050 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,160 taken and scraped and used to harm you. 1051 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,840 Carol Cox: Um, yeah. Well, Janice, 1052 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,040 well, thank you for sharing that because 1053 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,600 that, you know, it is scary to have a sitting 1054 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,600 U.S. senator say something like, 1055 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,200 I'm going to we're going to investigate your 1056 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,800 business. Like that's just not some, 1057 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,640 you know, random troll who could be a bot, 1058 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,160 right? Responding to something online. 1059 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,680 So wow. Well, and I and I appreciate your 1060 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,360 point that they're going to go look for their 1061 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:04,930 next victim, right? 1062 00:41:04,970 --> 00:41:06,890 The next, whatever it is the hot button 1063 00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:09,210 issue. So like, just like, 1064 00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:10,970 like you said, like, kind of like lay low, 1065 00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:11,690 right? 1066 00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:12,450 Janice Gassam Asare: Yes. 1067 00:41:12,490 --> 00:41:14,650 Carol Cox: Get through it. Have a strong support system. 1068 00:41:14,690 --> 00:41:16,210 You know, like you had your husband. I'm sure 1069 00:41:16,210 --> 00:41:17,690 you had some friends around you. 1070 00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:20,890 Right? To help you in that moment and not and 1071 00:41:20,890 --> 00:41:23,050 probably not to catastrophize it and feel 1072 00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:25,650 like, oh, my whole life is over or the whole, 1073 00:41:25,850 --> 00:41:27,370 you know, my whole business is over because 1074 00:41:27,370 --> 00:41:27,930 of this. 1075 00:41:28,290 --> 00:41:30,210 Janice Gassam Asare: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that, 1076 00:41:30,490 --> 00:41:33,170 um, yeah, you just have to know that this is 1077 00:41:33,170 --> 00:41:35,330 just the ups and downs that come with if 1078 00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:37,010 you're a business owner, I know many of you 1079 00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:38,770 are listeners, are business owners, 1080 00:41:38,770 --> 00:41:40,770 and it's just the ups and downs that come 1081 00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:42,130 with being a business owner. 1082 00:41:42,130 --> 00:41:44,250 I'm sure you have a lot of stories, 1083 00:41:44,250 --> 00:41:46,370 especially maybe back from your political 1084 00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:48,850 days, that you can tell that it's just like 1085 00:41:48,890 --> 00:41:51,090 it's just I think it comes with the 1086 00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:51,970 territory. 1087 00:41:52,410 --> 00:41:54,770 Carol Cox: Yes. And I, you know, I and I know some women 1088 00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:56,570 will ask me, you know, questions about this, 1089 00:41:56,610 --> 00:41:58,050 like, oh, what do I do if I get, you know, 1090 00:41:58,090 --> 00:41:59,130 criticized online? 1091 00:41:59,130 --> 00:42:00,250 And I said to them, well, 1092 00:42:00,290 --> 00:42:01,450 most likely you're not, 1093 00:42:01,450 --> 00:42:03,580 because if unless you're kind of stepping 1094 00:42:03,580 --> 00:42:05,460 into political topics, 1095 00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:07,300 you're probably fine if you're just talking 1096 00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:09,340 about like leadership coaching or marketing 1097 00:42:09,340 --> 00:42:11,220 practices or things like that, 1098 00:42:11,220 --> 00:42:12,780 you're going to be fine. Most of the time, 1099 00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:14,380 people are not looking for you. If you are 1100 00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:15,820 talking about things that maybe have a 1101 00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:16,940 political connotation, 1102 00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:18,700 then, you know, there's some other strategies 1103 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:20,100 that we can use because I don't want women to 1104 00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:21,220 feel like, oh my God, anytime I post 1105 00:42:21,220 --> 00:42:23,460 something online, I'm going to get criticism 1106 00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:25,380 because I post stuff on LinkedIn, 1107 00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:28,100 you know, all the time. And I'd be grateful 1108 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:29,220 for more comments. 1109 00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:30,940 Like those, right? 1110 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:32,580 Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I know, so it's just like, 1111 00:42:32,580 --> 00:42:34,260 yeah, I think you just you can't, 1112 00:42:34,340 --> 00:42:37,300 um, let the I think you should deal with the 1113 00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:38,940 situation when it happens, 1114 00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:42,020 but don't be discouraged from posting because 1115 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:43,620 you think you'll get backlash. I think there 1116 00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:45,540 will always be someone who, 1117 00:42:45,580 --> 00:42:47,780 especially if you are a if any of your 1118 00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:49,900 listeners do work around, 1119 00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:51,940 um, women, you know if you. 1120 00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:54,180 Like a women's leadership coach or your 1121 00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:56,780 there's always going to be people or someone 1122 00:42:56,780 --> 00:42:58,940 who says something. So I think that that is 1123 00:42:58,940 --> 00:43:00,820 just something that's constant. Regardless of 1124 00:43:00,820 --> 00:43:02,430 what you do, There's going to be people who 1125 00:43:02,430 --> 00:43:04,390 are not supportive, who think what you're 1126 00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:06,550 doing is silly, who think you don't know what 1127 00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:08,510 you're talking about. There's there's and I 1128 00:43:08,510 --> 00:43:09,910 think it's important to be able to 1129 00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:12,630 distinguish between valid critiques and valid 1130 00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:15,710 criticism and people who are just saying it 1131 00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:17,830 because they want to be a contrarian. 1132 00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:20,390 Carol Cox: Right? Yes. Excellent point. 1133 00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:22,790 And and here's what I try to keep in mind, 1134 00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:26,430 too. They want to silence us for whatever 1135 00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:29,190 reason. Don't silence yourself beforehand. 1136 00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:30,670 Janice Gassam Asare: Yes, exactly. 1137 00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:32,270 Carol Cox: Because you're just kind of doing the work 1138 00:43:32,270 --> 00:43:33,750 for them. And we don't want that. We don't 1139 00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:34,990 want to make it easy for them. 1140 00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:36,230 Janice Gassam Asare: Exactly. So yeah. 1141 00:43:36,270 --> 00:43:38,510 Don't um, and I think that more people will 1142 00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:41,310 be positively impacted by your voice than 1143 00:43:41,710 --> 00:43:44,230 those few trolls that say whatever it is that 1144 00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:45,870 they want to say to deter you. 1145 00:43:46,270 --> 00:43:47,350 Carol Cox: Exactly. Yes. 1146 00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:49,750 Yeah. We need we need your voices out there 1147 00:43:50,070 --> 00:43:52,510 because there's a lot of work that we have to 1148 00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:53,790 do for sure. 1149 00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:56,230 And Janice, I am so grateful for the work 1150 00:43:56,230 --> 00:43:58,390 that you do. I loved your new book, 1151 00:43:58,390 --> 00:44:00,510 Rise and Resist. For those of you listening, 1152 00:44:00,550 --> 00:44:04,830 make sure to order Janice's book and it is 1153 00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:06,870 beautifully written. I love the historical 1154 00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:08,430 portraits and like I said, 1155 00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:10,910 feeling like there's something that we can do 1156 00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:14,310 to to kind of not only to get through this 1157 00:44:14,310 --> 00:44:17,550 moment, but actually like do something in a 1158 00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:20,070 positive way for the communities around us, 1159 00:44:20,070 --> 00:44:22,270 for those around us, but then come out the 1160 00:44:22,270 --> 00:44:24,350 other side with things that are actually 1161 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:26,350 going to have a lasting difference. 1162 00:44:26,350 --> 00:44:28,230 So we can have these lasting changes that we 1163 00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:28,750 want. 1164 00:44:28,910 --> 00:44:30,590 Janice Gassam Asare: Absolutely, 100%. 1165 00:44:30,590 --> 00:44:33,030 I think that I hope people walk away feeling 1166 00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:35,870 like, um, they can do something, 1167 00:44:35,870 --> 00:44:37,750 whether it's something more micro or 1168 00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:39,750 something. You know, I talk about there's an 1169 00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:42,710 amazing woman, um, Mary Ellen Pleasant, 1170 00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:44,390 and she was a woman who, 1171 00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:47,310 um, she lived in the 1800s in California. 1172 00:44:47,310 --> 00:44:49,350 And she ended up, um, her husband passed 1173 00:44:49,350 --> 00:44:51,550 away, and she inherited a bunch of money, 1174 00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:53,590 and she invested the money in different 1175 00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:56,150 things. And she was helping people on the 1176 00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:58,070 Underground Railroad in California. 1177 00:44:58,070 --> 00:45:00,240 And she actually posed as, 1178 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,440 like, a domestic service worker. 1179 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,480 Um, so that she could actually learn more 1180 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,360 about money and investment. 1181 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,240 And no one knew who she was, 1182 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,240 and that she was somebody who had some sort 1183 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,760 of wealth, but she was using that wealth and 1184 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,560 that money to reinvest in, 1185 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,200 uh, causes that, that she supported and 1186 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:19,960 communities that were important to her. 1187 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,160 And so I think that there's so many micro 1188 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,000 ways that we can support. 1189 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,760 And it could be something as easy as, 1190 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,080 like making connections between people, 1191 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,280 um, sharing something with your community, 1192 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,840 whether online or in person. 1193 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,120 So I think that it doesn't have to be this 1194 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,640 grand thing, but there are so many different 1195 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:40,920 ways we can resist. 1196 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:42,840 Carol Cox: Absolutely. Well, Janice, 1197 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,680 thank you once again for coming back on the 1198 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,320 Speaking Your Brand podcast. 1199 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,480 And again, for those of you listening, 1200 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,760 get Janice's book and connect with her on 1201 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,960 LinkedIn. And until next time, 1202 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,040 thanks for listening.