Carol Cox: We're continuing our series about big ideas.
My guest today is Janice Gassam,
whose new book, Rise and Resist,
is a tour de force about finding and using
your voice. On this episode of the Speaking
Your Brand podcast.
More and more women are making an impact by
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and speaking up for what matters.
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Hi there and welcome to the Speaking Your
Brand podcast. I'm your host,
Carol Cox. Today we're going to dive into how
to find and use your voice,
especially if you have something that's a
bigger impact that you want to make and how
that can take different forms.
It could be your signature talk for speaking
engagement. It could be articles and
publications that you write.
It could also be an entire book.
And I am so thrilled to have back on the
podcast, my guest, Janice Gassam,
she was last on the podcast in episode 156,
which aired in January 2020.
And boy, does the world look a lot different
than when she was on, because at the time we
talked about visibility strategies to get you
noticed and definitely go back and listen to
that episode. I'll link to it in the show
notes. But since then,
as I mentioned, a lot has gone on.
Janice has a PhD in organizational
psychology, and she's the founder of an award
winning consultancy that works with
organizations to create cultures built on
equity. She has written three best selling
books, and the reason I'm having her on now
is because she has a book that is coming out
right now in February 2026,
called Rise and Resist How to Reclaim
Workplace Equity and Justice.
Obviously, it's very timely,
which is why I wanted to have her on to have
this conversation.
Janice is also a senior contributing writer
for Forbes, having authored over 500
articles. That's like me having over 450
podcast episodes, but I feel like writing
articles is a lot harder than me just talking
on the podcast. She's also a contributor to
Harvard Business Review,
a LinkedIn learning instructor,
and a two time TEDx speaker.
On top of all that, she's also an adjunct
professor at Columbia University.
Janice, I don't know how you do it all,
but welcome back to the podcast.
Janice Gassam Asare: Thank you so much, Carol,
for having me. I'm so glad to be back.
So much has changed in these last six years,
but I'm so glad to be here and to to be
joining you.
Carol Cox: Well, I you sent me an advanced a galley of
your new book, Rise and Resist.
And it is beautifully written, which I'm not
surprised because you are such a great
writer. And actually we first connected
because back in 2019 you found this podcast
and then you were so kind.
You wrote an article featuring me in Forbes
about how I'm trying to get women speakers
paid to speak because we still have problems
in public speaking, with equity,
with women speakers, and that's something
that we still work with our clients on to.
First of all, ask to get paid,
but then ask what the going rates are for it
as well. So thank you for for spotlighting
that. But let's dive into your new book,
Rise and Resist.
So tell us a little bit about the premise of
the book and why you decided to write it.
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I, you know, I, I was just I've just
been seeing what's happening,
what we're all seeing in the US going on and
unfolding. And you mentioned in earlier in
the podcast that I have a background in
organizational psychology,
but a lot of my work and my writing has
focused on equity, right?
How to make sure that the most marginalized
employees have an opportunity to succeed and
to thrive in the workplace.
And what I've noticed is,
in just the time that I've been doing this
work for the last several years,
is that a lot of things are cyclical.
And what has happened ten years ago or 20
years ago or 30 years ago happens again and
happens over and over and over.
And, you know, I know you are you have a
background in history.
I am not. As I wrote in the book,
I was never really a fan of history.
I'm not a student of history,
but I've learned that if I am in this
position where I want to help people to have
better experiences in the workplace,
I need to study and learn what has happened
to get us to this point.
And so in my realization of that,
I have been studying the legacies of
different black people throughout the world
who have resisted the circumstances that
they've lived through because I've been
wondering, like, how did these people who
lived 60 years ago that were getting hosed
down by, you know, water hoses and dogs and
all of these things and lynchings and all of
the horrific things that have happened.
How did these people endure,
and what lessons can we take from their
journeys? And how can what they went through
inspire us in this moment?
Where for me, I know when I open up my phone,
it's just I feel bombarded with so much news
and this happening and that happening and
that, and it feels really overwhelming.
And so I in writing this book,
it was very cathartic for me because it
reminded me of the power and the strength
that each of us have and that,
you know, it's the people who came before us
have been able to withstand and endure.
Then we can definitely push through.
And just so thinking about,
like, what are the lessons that they can
teach us is really what inspired me to write
this book.
Carol Cox: And to your point, Janice,
about feeling overwhelmed because the news
cycle just speeds up.
And then one tragedy just kind of falls into
the next one. And then we forget,
literally forget about the thing that
happened a week or two before.
And I feel like for so many of us,
and I count myself among them,
feeling powerlessness,
feeling like, what can we do?
It's like a drop in the ocean.
You know, as far as feeling like there's
things that we can do or agency that we have.
And I feel like reading your book also to
remind me, like you said,
of all the people who have come before and
how they found power and agency and what they
were doing. And as soon as I opened up the
book and I saw the table of contents with
these different people's names,
you know, from from history,
you know, from relatively recent modern
history, right? But then how you structured
it in these different chapters for things
that they did and that we can do,
whether it's documenting,
storytelling, coalition building,
etc.. And so what gave you the idea to
structure the book in that way?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. You know, I was speaking with my editor
and my the editor that I work with.
He actually started the publishing company,
and he's an older white male.
And he to me, he felt like my grandfather
because he was very, just like,
so helpful in the process.
And he he was like, I am an advocate.
I want to help the most marginalized.
And I know that maybe you are writing this
book for a particular segment of the
population, but I'm inspired by these
stories. So what are the lessons that people
can really pull from these individuals?
Because I think when I wrote it,
I was like, I had one person in mind or a few
people in mind, and I had multiple lessons
that we could pull from them. But I think
distilling it down to one specific thing made
it feel more tangible,
because I think we hear about these people or
we read about these historical figures and
we're like, oh my gosh,
they accomplished so many really,
really amazing things.
How did, for example, someone like Harriet
Tubman do what she did during the Underground
Railroad, and how was she able to play such
an instrumental role? And it feels like out
of reach for us because it's like,
well, I'm just one person working at this
place and trying to get my speaking business
off the ground. What can I realistically do?
And so in talking with my editor,
he was like, what is one thing that people
can actually pull out of the stories of these
historical figures who seem so amazing and so
great? But what is one thing that is tangible
and realistic? And so I think that's where
the theme started to emerge,
because I started to notice that,
okay, a lot of these figures,
for example, have utilized coalition building
and realized that there's a lot of power in
community and leaning on your community.
And I know you as somebody who's built this
really powerful community here.
You understand the power of of building these
coalitions of people who have these same
interests, and you're trying to lift each
other up. And so I think that a lot of the
people who have resisted throughout time have
utilized the same strategies.
And so I think that that's when I started to
see these themes and patterns that were
emerging. So I think it was great to kind of
see these are very simple things that all of
us can do storytelling.
Right. And and just sharing what has happened
in our lives and sharing our story and how
inspirational that is,
especially if you're somebody who has a
marginalized voice, whose voice doesn't get
heard often.
You know, there's a lot of power in people
being able to read your truth and read your
story. And I think what we're seeing now is
that there is a lot of attempts to erase the
stories of different people and erase black
history. And so I think that what this book,
I hope inspires people to understand is that
there is power in telling your story and
having your voice in whatever ways,
whether that's a podcast or a book or or how
you show up online or what you do within your
community. And so I think that there are,
I hope, really tangible takeaways for people
to see that all of these things are can be
very simple and even micro resistance
strategies that you can utilize every day in
your life and in your community.
Carol Cox: Yes. And to your point about storytelling, I
wanted to make sure we we talked about that
because I talk quite a bit about storytelling
here on the podcast and with the work that we
do with our clients, because especially
because so many of the women that we work
with, they're high achieving,
educated, credentialed women and they're
oftentimes speaking related to their
expertise or whatever their topic is.
And we've almost been trained out of personal
storytelling in corporate culture or in
business culture.
So we feel like somehow it's not appropriate
or it's not going to be looked upon well.
But I know every time I go to to a conference
or an event and I hear a speaker just share a
little bit about something personal or like
their journey or where they came from and
what they've discovered about themselves.
I feel a greater connection with them,
more so than any list of expertise that they
could, that they could do.
And then to your point about the erasure of
black history and the erasure of stories,
and that's why I studied history,
because I wanted to find the women in the
stories, because all the history that I
learned growing up, women were barely there,
much less black people or marginalized
people. Their stories weren't there.
They were talked about,
but they weren't able to tell their stories.
And so that's why I love that you included
storytelling as a form of resistance in your
book. So but let's before we go more into the
book, I want to back up and ask you because I
think this will be helpful for the listeners
who probably enjoy public speaking.
They want to work on their keynote or do a
Ted talk, or maybe do lead generation
presentations for their business,
and maybe some of them also have the inkling
that they would like to write a book one day.
Now, you've written a lot,
Janice. Over 500 articles just for Forbes.
You have an email newsletter. You're active
on LinkedIn. Why did you decide that a book
was the right medium for sharing this
message? Like, why do books still matter in
this day of, you know, TikTok videos that
last for 30s and people are constantly
scrolling versus reading an entire book?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I actually think that this book was my
way of documenting as resistance because,
um, I've seen that there has been a move,
especially among younger generations,
and Gen Z and Gen Alpha have really moved
away from or they're trying to move away from
technology. And so, you know,
I've been reading a lot of these think pieces
about how people feel like we own nothing
now. Right. You know, so when you buy a car
now, they're making you pay for a
subscription to get maybe like heated seats
or these different perks that used to come
with just buying and owning a car.
And, you know, we see what has happened with
the streaming services.
And, you know, I we don't even have me and my
partner don't even have cable.
Um, but everything is a streaming service.
Everything is just, you know,
you have you don't own anything,
you don't own any music.
And I remember being in college and
downloading music and you actually owned it.
You could put it into your car.
But now if there is an outage at your
favorite music streaming service,
you can't listen to the songs that you
purchased or that you paid for.
And even, you know, I'm a huge audiobook fan.
But if they change the terms and conditions,
what if your audiobooks disappear and you
paid for them but you don't actually own
them? So I do think that having physical
copies of things, especially now,
you know, where, um, everything is digitized
and we don't really own anything. There's a
lot of power in physically having,
like, okay, I have a copy of this book and no
one can take that away from me.
And so I do still think books matter.
And I think that people are actually moving
toward books in an age where everything is
digital. People want the physical copies.
People want to go back and refer to things,
and you can't quite do that in the Kindle
versions. And I've just been,
um, diving back into physical books because
I'm not a physical book person,
surprisingly. I just feel like I don't have
the time. Um, but my attention span,
I've noticed, has gotten a lot better since
I've started rereading physical books again.
Because when I'm on the Kindle or I'm doing
the audiobook, I'm multitasking,
so I'm not actually processing what I'm
reading. And so I do think in the age and the
era that we are in where we don't actually
own anything, there's power in having
physical things and physical books.
Carol Cox: Oh, I love that.
And that actually makes me feel a little bit
better about the younger generations, because
I'm an avid reader. I always have been,
but I read all on Kindle because it's easy.
I can make the font big right versus right.
But I do. You know, I remember when I was
going to get my PhD in history,
like I had only physical books,
like the Kindle didn't even exist back then.
But it's true because you could thumb through
them and dog ear them and highlight and go
find the places and you could see the
connections.
Yeah, I could see the connections between
different books that I was reading.
And so I pre-ordered your your book,
Janice. So I'll be received in the mail once
it comes up. So I'm very excited to to read
the print version of it as well.
Okay. So let's dive into some more of the key
themes from the book.
So you talk, you know,
right off the bat about this anti die
backlash that we're in.
And you mentioned at the beginning of our
conversation that things tend to be cyclical.
So were you surprised by the backlash,
or have you been surprised by maybe the the
ferocity and the just the universality of the
backlash?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I would say I wasn't really surprised
because there were some indications that
things were reaching this point.
You know, if you looked at the peak in
interest in die in the summer of 2020 and
2021 and 2022.
And then there was like at the end of 2022
and early 2023, there was I was starting to
see declines or retreats rather from die,
and there was less interest.
And I think that it was a quote unquote hot
topic, and people were really interested in
it because everyone was talking about it.
And then companies felt like they didn't need
to continue to invest in die.
And so it was something that a lot of
companies started to retreat from.
And I think with this current administration
that is very anti die.
And there's been a lot of anti die
legislation.
I think people companies felt like that gave
them permission to to just completely do away
with it. And so I would say most people who
have any sort of understanding of history
know that any time there is any progress,
whether that is for women or black people or
any sort of underrepresented and marginalized
community, there is going to also be this
backlash and this group of people that don't
want to see that progress happen.
And so we see how hard it has been for
different marginalized communities to be able
to gain rights and fight for their rights.
And we saw what happened with women fighting
for our rights to vote and black people
fighting for civil rights and all of these
things. And so I think that if you understand
how history works, you'll see that everything
happens in a cycle.
And I do think that the pendulum will swing
back. You know, we see things are very anti
die right now. But I do feel like within a
company or corporation,
the fact of the matter is that there are
different people in your company,
and if you want every employee to feel like
they have an equal opportunity to advance and
that they have the tools that they need to
succeed, you need to prioritize,
you know, what are the strategies we can
utilize to make sure everybody is treated
fairly and equitably, and everyone is paid
equitably. And so that is something that is
not going to go away just because of an
administration or just because some people
don't like it.
And so I think that that is what people are
starting to realize is it's not just like,
hey, we want to make sure black people are
hired equitably, but it's also if a person is
breastfeeding, do they have access to a room
to breastfeed in the workplace or do.
Are people able to, you know,
are women being paid at the same rates as
their counterparts? And so di encompasses all
of that. And so I think that I,
I'm such a big advocate of Di and I'm like,
Di is beneficial for all of us.
And so I think that, um,
I know that the pendulum will swing back and
companies will start to realize again,
this work is important and we can't just
throw it away.
Carol Cox: Um, and so, Janice, a couple of things come
to mind. First, I was listening to something
recently, and they were having this
discussion about this backlash to di,
and they said that I forget I forget who who
the person was, of course,
it was on a podcast, because that's all I do
during the morning when I'm like cleaning and
getting ready, listening to podcasts. And she
said something to the effect of the,
the, the problem. And I'm using the word
problem. But the problem with, say,
like Black Lives Matter movement in the MeToo
movement and that like, you know, 2014 to say
2020 ish era was that there was no
legislation that actually got passed.
It was just a bunch of companies who decided
on their own voluntarily to put these things
into practice because it made them look good,
right? It helped with employee hiring and
retention. Some of the companies had good
meaning behind it. Some of them did it
because they felt like they had to.
But nothing. But it wasn't able to stick
because it didn't have,
like, real teeth behind it.
Do you have you seen the same thing?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. That's actually I've never heard that
argument before, but that's actually a very
valid point.
Um, where there hasn't there hadn't been,
I'm thinking in the period from 2020 to maybe
2023, there wasn't any significant sort of
legislation. There were a lot of cities that
implemented things like a racial equity,
um, coalition, um, as part of a city or a
town or state.
So there were a lot of those.
I know that, um, um, former President Joe
Biden had some sort of like,
racial equity commission on his
administration.
But there as far as, like specific
legislation, there wasn't any that I can
think of that is comparable to what was
implemented in the 1960s.
So I think that that's a really valid point
where that kind of makes it easier to undo
and dismantle when there isn't anything sort
of solid, um, forcing people to ensure,
hey, we have, you know,
there's things from the 1960s,
but nothing that was really in that period,
um, post the murder of George Floyd.
Carol Cox: Um, right. Because we think of like title
seven, title nine, these things that have
been that are in law but that have made
things more equitable and and if they're not,
then people can sue and it goes to and it
goes to court. And then I remember at the end
of President Biden's term that there was a
push for him to sign the Equal Rights
Amendment into law.
But there's, you know, some, some controversy
about whether or not because of the time
frame and things like that. But he didn't do
it, even though I think he probably should
have, you know, and then have it settle
because we have no equal rights amendment for
women in this country.
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And so there wasn't a lot that I know of.
You know, I'm like trying to think through
the different laws.
I know that, um, they were looking into
different, um, maternal mortality,
um, legislation or, or I wouldn't say it was
legislation, but policies to support maternal
mortality, because we have we're a quote
unquote, developed nation, and we have the
most abysmal rates for maternal health in the
US, especially for black women.
So I know that there were some initiatives
that were put forth, but I don't know if
anything was like a law per se.
So I do think that that is a really,
really great point that that person on the
podcast made where there wasn't actually a
lot of legislation. I know people pushed for
different legislation.
I know that there was the pushing of like
there was some sort of, um,
George Floyd act that they were trying to get
passed. I know they were trying to get an
anti-lynching law passed,
and I think that that did pass maybe at the
end of Biden's term.
Um, but I don't know how effective that
legislation has actually been.
Carol Cox: Mhm. Yeah. Well, and even more reason to get
more women and underrepresented people into
politics and into Congress so that they can
have that impact. So let's talk a little bit
more about what it looks like to rise and
resist. And I know, Janice,
you mostly focus on workplaces because that's
what you do in your consulting.
And so thinking about for listeners who maybe
are executives or, you know,
they work within companies or even those who
are have their own businesses that they
consult within companies and within their
industries. What are some things that they
can either be looking for or things that they
can do that will will give them that sense of
agency back, but also be something positive
with that they can do within their workplace,
especially to support those around them.
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I think there's so many things.
Like as a as a business owner,
like, for example, I've been following what's
happening. What what has been happening with
the ice presence in, um,
Minneapolis and Minnesota in general.
And I've been seeing, um,
you know, there have been business owners
that have opened their stores up for the
local community, you know,
for people who want to exercise their right
to protest. There are business owners that
are like, we know that these are below zero
temperatures. You can come into our
establishment and warm your hands or get free
food. And so this is a really small and
impactful way to just rise and resist that.
I don't think people think about like as a
business owner, right. So there are so many
things that you could do as a business owner
that are more, um, that are more micro,
that seem more micro, but make a huge impact.
But I think as an individual even like
recognizing the power that you have in your
workplace, right? If you're somebody, even if
you're a more junior level employee,
if you're somebody who is influential and who
people listen to and who has a voice,
you can use that voice to advocate for
different things, right?
You can use that voice to I've.
I've had it happen to me.
And it's often usually women who anytime I've
had a speaking engagement within an
organization or an institution,
I would say 80% of the time it has been a
woman that has brought me in.
And so using your voice to advocate for
another person and bring them in and amplify
their voice, you know,
is another thing that you can do. But even
like speaking up in a meeting when this
happens a lot to women,
where we are interrupted when we say things
in the workplace, we are cut off our ideas
and our contributions aren't valued as much.
And so just speaking up for another person
when you see that they are being erased or
their voices being silenced in a
conversation. And so I think just that
amplification is so, so important and so
powerful. And people might say,
well, I'm just one person.
I'm just a junior employee who just started
what what can I do?
I can't really make a difference. But I think
that if you look at just even through
history, there are so many things that people
accomplished that seemed impossible before
they actually accomplished it.
But now we look back and we're like,
oh, of course that happened,
right? And so I think that there are so many
small things we can do,
whether it's amplifying someone's voice or
even, you know, something that I've been
doing is I have a pretty robust community on
LinkedIn. And anytime somebody,
especially people who've lost their jobs,
reach out to me and they're like,
I would love to introduce to be introduced to
Carol Cox. You know, I love her podcast.
Can you make an introduction?
I will do that even if I don't know the
person. And I actually did that for a friend
of mine who was transitioning out of the
Army, and she really wanted to work at
Deloitte, and that was like her dream job.
And so I looked through my my connections on
LinkedIn and I was like,
I see I'm connected with a couple people who
are, um, higher executives at Deloitte.
I reached out to one person.
We're connected. I don't know how.
I've never met or talked to this person.
I messaged him and he put me in touch with
somebody else. And long story short,
my friend was able to connect with that
person, and she ended up getting the job at
Deloitte just from like a few LinkedIn
connections. So even something small like
that, where you might be somebody who is a
business owner, you don't work in corporate,
but you're connected with somebody,
and even offering to make those introductions
can be really, really powerful. Because I
think whether you work in corporate or you're
a speaker or a consultant,
we all know that connections are very
powerful and you're not going to get an
opportunity or you're not going to be
promoted, or I don't want to say you won't
be, but I say, I say that the likelihood of
getting promoted or getting opportunities is
higher when you are connected with different
people. And so I think really prioritizing
those connections is important, and even
offering to make those connections whenever
possible. Malcolm Gladwell talked about this
in his book. I think it was in The Tipping
Point. He talked about those people that are
like the connectors, and I consider myself
one of those people, or I try to be somebody
who tries to make connections between
different people. And so something even as
small as that, you could open the door to an
opportunity that someone would have never had
otherwise. So I don't want us to think that
resistance has to be this,
excuse me, large, grand actions.
It could be something as small as making an
introduction or amplifying somebody's voice
online or in a meeting so that more people
can can hear them and they can gain more
visibility.
Carol Cox: Oh, I love that, Janice.
What a great, great suggestions.
And I think about sometimes when people will
reach out to me because they want me to speak
at something and I'm not available for
whatever reason, I will oftentimes then send
them back recommendations of other speakers,
you know, women speakers and,
and, you know, black or Hispanic women
speakers. I'm like, no, she would be great
because I want to give these other women
these opportunities, too. So I don't just
write back and say, no, sorry, I can't make
it, but then I recommend other women to.
And then I think also to your point is that I
feel like so many of us need to expand what
our network looks like,
because most of the time our networks like
kind of by default, look very much like us
because like attracts like and that's what we
tend to do. So I know I have made a concerted
effort over the years to make sure that my
network looks very much like society looks,
not just looks like me.
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, exactly.
And you know, I know we know all about the
like within companies.
They've done, you know, McKinsey and all of
these places have done so much research on
within a corporation like the benefits with
having people who are just from different
backgrounds and think differently and look
differently, and how that makes a company
more innovative, because you don't have this
homogenous group of people thinking the same
way. But I would say even in your friend
group and in your circle of friends in your
community, just the people that you connect
with, being really intentional about
connecting with people who are different from
you. And it's hard because like you said,
like attracts like.
And you know, you if you look at your circle
of friends or your LinkedIn connections,
they're going to look like you.
And so really being intentional and I think
that you have a great opportunity with when
you are reached out to for speaking
engagements, providing other names and other
people who can serve if you can't.
So I think that really being intentional
about that, even the podcast that I listen
to, I really, really try to be intentional
about who I listen to,
you know, because I found myself,
I might have mentioned this in our podcast in
2019, in 2020, but I found that around that
time when I looked at all of the audiobooks
and podcasts I was listening to,
it was all men, and it was all like these
finance experts and finance bros and tech
bros and and I was just like,
I need to diversify the people who I look to
for advice and who I see as an expert.
And so being really intentional about that is
important.
Carol Cox: Yes. Well, I have I discovered the same
thing. I did this challenge right in March
2020 as the pandemic was starting that I had
planned before then called Choosing Women's
Voices. And the challenge was right for us to
audit. Like the podcast that we listen to,
the audiobooks we listened to.
Like literally, how many women's voices are
we hearing versus men's voices not to discard
the men, but my balance was way off.
It was probably like 80% men versus 20% women
because I listened to a lot of politics
podcasts and technology podcasts.
But there are other podcasts out there that
are by women and with women guests.
So. But just me, myself,
like, I had to be more intentional and seek
out those, those other voices to make sure
that I was listening to them as well.
So speaking of voice, Janice,
let me ask you, how have what has helped you
to define and develop your own voice over the
years? Because clearly you have a very strong
voice. And by that I mean,
you know, what you talk about,
you know what matters to you.
You know, the bigger mission that you have,
you know the impact that you want to make.
Obviously, you've done a lot of writing.
So what has helped you over the years to
develop that?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I would say, um,
I look to other people for inspiration.
I think that there was a time,
if you can believe it, where I was scared
myself to bring things up,
and I was not the person that wanted to rock
the boat. And I know a lot of women who are
listening to this can relate, because I think
we are conditioned in society to be people
pleasers, and I'm the middle child and I'm
very much into like birth order because I do
think that, like, it does play a role if
you're an only child versus an eldest
daughter and all of those things.
And so I'm a middle child and we're supposed
to be like the peacemakers.
But I think that part of being a middle
child, I've been conditioned to be very much
a people pleaser, and I don't like to rock
the boat. And so it's very ironic that I'm
doing the work that I'm doing as somebody
who's pushing back and resisting and trying
to help people find their voices within their
corporations and push back,
because I struggled with be rocking the boat
earlier in my career.
And when I was younger, I never wanted to be
like that person.
I wanted to be agreeable and I wanted to be
likable. And so I think that my mom has been
a huge source of inspiration because she has
always, since I remember,
has been somebody that pushed back when she
saw something happening that was not right.
You know, my mom was a.
Both my parents are educators,
and my mom used to be a school teacher,
and she was at schools where the principal
forced her to change a student's grades
because the student was,
like, in line to be valedictorian.
And she my mom was just like,
no, I'm not going to do that.
That's not morally right.
And they did not renew her contract the next
year. And so, you know,
they could have said, oh, her performance and
this and that, but it's like she could have
easily just said she'll change the grade.
Like in the grand scheme of things,
a lot of people would say,
what does it matter to change one student's
grades and keep your job?
But she just had so much integrity that she
was like, I'm not going to do that. And,
you know, she she lost that job opportunity.
And so I think that my mom has been a really
big source of inspiration.
And then I look to other people.
There's so many people that I see who are
fighting for whatever they're fighting for in
their own lives, whether it's for victims of
of violence, um, whether it's people who've
been silenced in their workplace,
whatever it is, I think I look to those
people for inspiration because I think it's
really, really hard to speak up.
Um, especially when you're in a situation
where, you know, people aren't going to
listen to you, people aren't going to believe
you. You know, just thinking about all of the
women. There's been a lot of conversations
about domestic violence as of late.
And, um, you know, child violence and
thinking about all of the women and the
people who've come out and said,
hey, this person harmed me.
This person who's powerful,
who has a lot of money,
who has a lot of visibility,
has harmed me.
And everyone's not believing you and the
courage and the strength that it takes to
come out and say that. And so I think those
people inspire me.
So I see a lot of inspiration in the people
that are able to still speak out and use
their voice, even though they're they're not
listened to and they're not heard and their
stories aren't always amplified.
Carol Cox: Well, Janice, that actually leads me to the
next question that I wanted to ask you,
which relates to this. And it's interesting
that I believe in birth order, too.
I'm the oldest. No surprise,
because.
Janice Gassam Asare: You must be very. Organized.
Carol Cox: Very.
Janice Gassam Asare: Financially responsible.
Carol Cox: Very adult at a very young age,
like very organized for sure.
And so but, but but to your point,
like so many of us are socialized to be
people pleasers, we don't want to rock the
boat, you know, we want to,
to get along. But I know that as you write in
your new book that you experienced quite a
bit of of unexpected to you backlash and
criticism because of the work that you were
doing. I think there was some like Twitter
mob or something that ended up finding
something. So can you do you mind telling us
that story? And then what did you do to
navigate that? Because,
you know, I've had experiences,
you know, from from doing political analysis
on the TV news, like, but this was like back,
you know, a decade ago when stuff was not
like it is today.
And I just kind of just could ignore the
comments. And luckily there was not mobs of
people, but. So how did you navigate this and
what did what do you recommend to other
women?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah. So I tell the full story in the book.
Um, and I've shared the story online before.
Um, but I actually got attacked by he was
then just a senator from Ohio,
JD Vance. Um, but in 2023,
I, I had a book coming out then called
Decentering Whiteness in the workplace,
which looked at how whiteness culture impacts
the workplace and how everything that we do
in the workplace, whether our policies or our
practices, are rooted in this culture and how
it negatively impacts our workplaces.
So I wrote an article that was centered on
some of the things I talked about in the
book. A month after I wrote the article,
nothing happened, everything was fine.
And I remember around Thanksgiving of 2023,
Forbes tweeted the article and they posted it
on their Facebook and LinkedIn.
And it got a ton of backlash because of the
title. Right?
And the title was like something like three
Ways to De-center Whiteness in Your
workplace. And when they tweeted it,
it went viral.
And, uh, Vivek Ramaswamy and JD Vance and a
bunch of, um, people on the right saw the
title and they were disparaging me,
and Fox News did some hit pieces on me and
all of these right wing New York posts,
and all of them did some hit pieces on me.
And, um, you know, JD Vance basically said he
was going to investigate my consultancy and
it was a lot. And I'm kind of used to getting
online backlash because I've written articles
before where I've gotten a lot of hate mail.
And, you know, Fox News did a story on me in
2022 because of an article I wrote.
So I'm kind of used to it.
I'm not on Twitter much these days,
but I'm kind of used to like that.
But it wasn't to that level,
and I was maybe 2 or 3 months pregnant when
that happened. And it was just a lot that was
happening at that time.
And so what I actually did was I just didn't
log on and didn't I don't usually read the
comments and see what people are saying,
because I know that, like any time that has
happened to anybody, people are not going to
do that forever. They're going to troll you
for like a week, and then they're going to
get tired and then they're going to go away
and then they're going to find their next
victim. So I would say,
hopefully none of your listeners go through
any type of trolling or victimization online.
But I would definitely say to,
you know, make sure that you protect your
data and your information.
You know, I started paying for a service
where it looks for my information online,
and if there's any personal information,
it deletes it because I was like,
as a woman, as somebody who writes about
things that could be considered
controversial. I am an easier target.
And so how can I protect myself?
And I think all your listeners who are women
or who identify as women,
need to make sure that they're doing things
to protect themselves online,
because there's so many ways that people can
access your information if they just know a
little bit about like,
okay, Carol Cox, maybe I'm like,
she lives in Pennsylvania or she lives in
Florida. Let me Google the city she lives in.
And then your information pops up,
your family members pop up.
And so making sure that you keep yourself
safe online, you delete any information,
you delete your data if wherever you can and
wherever possible.
Um, and also just know that it's not going to
last forever, right?
That if anyone is attacking you or doing
these hit pieces, they do it for a little bit
and then they get tired.
And so I was able to make it through that
relatively unscathed.
But that was a tough.
And prior to that, I wasn't really familiar
with JD Vance. My husband had to tell me,
oh, he wrote his book Hillbilly Elegy,
and I was not really familiar with him.
Um, but now, you know,
it's just we we see who he is and all of
that. But I say all that to say that whatever
it is that you're going through, whatever
trolling, just know that I think it's usually
a good sign that you're doing something right
when people are, ah, you've hit a nerve,
um, when people are doing that to you.
But also it doesn't last forever.
And then also as women,
making sure you're keeping yourself safe and
you're really mindful of what you post
online, because all of that can be used and
taken and scraped and used to harm you.
Carol Cox: Um, yeah. Well, Janice,
well, thank you for sharing that because
that, you know, it is scary to have a sitting
U.S. senator say something like,
I'm going to we're going to investigate your
business. Like that's just not some,
you know, random troll who could be a bot,
right? Responding to something online.
So wow. Well, and I and I appreciate your
point that they're going to go look for their
next victim, right?
The next, whatever it is the hot button
issue. So like, just like,
like you said, like, kind of like lay low,
right?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yes.
Carol Cox: Get through it. Have a strong support system.
You know, like you had your husband. I'm sure
you had some friends around you.
Right? To help you in that moment and not and
probably not to catastrophize it and feel
like, oh, my whole life is over or the whole,
you know, my whole business is over because
of this.
Janice Gassam Asare: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that,
um, yeah, you just have to know that this is
just the ups and downs that come with if
you're a business owner, I know many of you
are listeners, are business owners,
and it's just the ups and downs that come
with being a business owner.
I'm sure you have a lot of stories,
especially maybe back from your political
days, that you can tell that it's just like
it's just I think it comes with the
territory.
Carol Cox: Yes. And I, you know, I and I know some women
will ask me, you know, questions about this,
like, oh, what do I do if I get, you know,
criticized online?
And I said to them, well,
most likely you're not,
because if unless you're kind of stepping
into political topics,
you're probably fine if you're just talking
about like leadership coaching or marketing
practices or things like that,
you're going to be fine. Most of the time,
people are not looking for you. If you are
talking about things that maybe have a
political connotation,
then, you know, there's some other strategies
that we can use because I don't want women to
feel like, oh my God, anytime I post
something online, I'm going to get criticism
because I post stuff on LinkedIn,
you know, all the time. And I'd be grateful
for more comments.
Like those, right?
Janice Gassam Asare: Yeah, I know, so it's just like,
yeah, I think you just you can't,
um, let the I think you should deal with the
situation when it happens,
but don't be discouraged from posting because
you think you'll get backlash. I think there
will always be someone who,
especially if you are a if any of your
listeners do work around,
um, women, you know if you.
Like a women's leadership coach or your
there's always going to be people or someone
who says something. So I think that that is
just something that's constant. Regardless of
what you do, There's going to be people who
are not supportive, who think what you're
doing is silly, who think you don't know what
you're talking about. There's there's and I
think it's important to be able to
distinguish between valid critiques and valid
criticism and people who are just saying it
because they want to be a contrarian.
Carol Cox: Right? Yes. Excellent point.
And and here's what I try to keep in mind,
too. They want to silence us for whatever
reason. Don't silence yourself beforehand.
Janice Gassam Asare: Yes, exactly.
Carol Cox: Because you're just kind of doing the work
for them. And we don't want that. We don't
want to make it easy for them.
Janice Gassam Asare: Exactly. So yeah.
Don't um, and I think that more people will
be positively impacted by your voice than
those few trolls that say whatever it is that
they want to say to deter you.
Carol Cox: Exactly. Yes.
Yeah. We need we need your voices out there
because there's a lot of work that we have to
do for sure.
And Janice, I am so grateful for the work
that you do. I loved your new book,
Rise and Resist. For those of you listening,
make sure to order Janice's book and it is
beautifully written. I love the historical
portraits and like I said,
feeling like there's something that we can do
to to kind of not only to get through this
moment, but actually like do something in a
positive way for the communities around us,
for those around us, but then come out the
other side with things that are actually
going to have a lasting difference.
So we can have these lasting changes that we
want.
Janice Gassam Asare: Absolutely, 100%.
I think that I hope people walk away feeling
like, um, they can do something,
whether it's something more micro or
something. You know, I talk about there's an
amazing woman, um, Mary Ellen Pleasant,
and she was a woman who,
um, she lived in the 1800s in California.
And she ended up, um, her husband passed
away, and she inherited a bunch of money,
and she invested the money in different
things. And she was helping people on the
Underground Railroad in California.
And she actually posed as,
like, a domestic service worker.
Um, so that she could actually learn more
about money and investment.
And no one knew who she was,
and that she was somebody who had some sort
of wealth, but she was using that wealth and
that money to reinvest in,
uh, causes that, that she supported and
communities that were important to her.
And so I think that there's so many micro
ways that we can support.
And it could be something as easy as,
like making connections between people,
um, sharing something with your community,
whether online or in person.
So I think that it doesn't have to be this
grand thing, but there are so many different
ways we can resist.
Carol Cox: Absolutely. Well, Janice,
thank you once again for coming back on the
Speaking Your Brand podcast.
And again, for those of you listening,
get Janice's book and connect with her on
LinkedIn. And until next time,
thanks for listening.