01:00:03:21 - 01:00:07:26 Hey there, and welcome back to another installment of The Offset Podcast. And today, 01:00:08:01 - 01:00:12:05 we're taking a look at the state of monitors in 2025. Stay tuned. 01:00:18:04 - 01:00:23:19 This podcast is sponsored by Flanders Scientific, leaders in color accurate display solutions for 01:00:23:19 - 01:00:28:27 professional video. Whether you're a colorist, an editor, a DIT, or a broadcast engineer, 01:00:29:06 - 01:00:33:00 Flanders Scientific has a professional display solution to meet your needs. 01:00:33:10 - 01:00:35:21 Learn more at FlandersScientific.com. 01:00:36:23 - 01:00:41:04 Hey everybody, welcome back to another installment of The Offset Podcast 01:00:41:04 - 01:00:44:12 I am Robbie Carman, and with me as always is Joey D'Anna. 01:00:44:12 - 01:00:45:14 Joey, how you doing buddy? 01:00:46:00 - 01:00:47:14 Good, how are you? 01:00:47:14 - 01:00:52:09 I am good, man. Spring is in the air. I'm wearing pink. I'm feeling like 01:00:52:09 - 01:00:56:25 it's monitor season. Every spring, I sort of start to feel like it's monitor season for a 01:00:56:27 - 01:01:00:19 couple of reasons. One, it's kind of like trade show season, you know, so like everybody's going 01:01:00:19 - 01:01:05:08 to big trade shows and talking about monitors. And it just seems like, you know, post the holidays 01:01:05:16 - 01:01:08:27 and you know, the start of a new year, everybody's like, hey, what's my big purchase going to be 01:01:08:27 - 01:01:14:23 this year? And it's probably a reference monitor, right? That is something that colorists and DITs 01:01:14:23 - 01:01:18:27 and stuff are always thinking about. And so I wanted to spend this episode talking a little bit 01:01:18:27 - 01:01:23:12 about, I don't know, the state of affairs of monitors. I think we went through a period for 01:01:23:14 - 01:01:30:03 a couple of years where things were really kind of like flat, kind of boring. It was clearly that 01:01:30:03 - 01:01:34:14 like everybody was doing kind of stopgap things. And to a certain degree, I think we're probably 01:01:34:14 - 01:01:40:23 still in that zone. But I wanted to talk about monitors, but here's the thing, man, is that you 01:01:40:23 - 01:01:47:18 and I can flap all we want about monitors and SDI connections and contrast ratios. But the fact is, 01:01:47:18 - 01:01:53:03 is that we have some very, very smart friends who are experts in this field and know quite a bit 01:01:53:03 - 01:01:57:02 more than we do about this. So today we thought we'd have a little bit of a special episode. 01:01:57:02 - 01:02:02:25 This is going to be part one of a two part series, kind of exploring the state of affairs on monitors. 01:02:03:25 - 01:02:10:19 And we are lucky to be joined by these three gentlemen. Hi, guys. How are you? Let me introduce 01:02:10:19 - 01:02:15:26 everybody. First of all, we have Bram Desmet from FSI. Bram, actually you and Nate, 01:02:15:28 - 01:02:19:25 who I'll introduce in a second, have the honor of being our only return guests. That's because 01:02:20:08 - 01:02:25:14 we've only had two guests before, both of you. So congratulations for being return guests. 01:02:26:00 - 01:02:32:11 We have Bram Desmet from FSI, who is the CEO and general manager down there. He is a guru of 01:02:32:11 - 01:02:37:00 all things, display manufacturing, process, technology of displays, that kind of stuff. 01:02:37:25 - 01:02:40:05 We have Nate McFarlin from Dolby. Hey, Nate, how are you, man? 01:02:40:21 - 01:02:41:06 Doing well. 01:02:42:03 - 01:02:49:17 Nate is a engineer, validator, jack of all trades over at Dolby. At Dolby Labs, he explores 01:02:50:26 - 01:02:55:04 you know, if the proof is in the pudding with monitors, he does a lot of training 01:02:55:29 - 01:02:59:28 and part of the certification process for Dolby. For those of you who want to become 01:03:00:14 - 01:03:04:24 Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos certified, that's kind of Nate's area of expertise. 01:03:05:22 - 01:03:09:16 And he is my go-to person for any time I have a question about, 01:03:10:29 - 01:03:14:21 hey, is this a good purchase to buy? What do you think? Is the truth here? 01:03:15:08 - 01:03:19:12 So he'll have some good perspectives about monitors from Dolby's perspective and validation, 01:03:19:20 - 01:03:25:04 that kind of stuff. And then we also have David Abrams. David is a, how am I going to say this? 01:03:25:15 - 01:03:31:01 I think David is like the guru among gurus when it comes to calibration. If you talk to any, 01:03:31:19 - 01:03:37:14 pretty much any post-production facility or any colorist, they will know David's name and his 01:03:37:29 - 01:03:44:27 calibration company, AviCal. And David also is now at Portrait Displays. David came out with a awesome 01:03:45:15 - 01:03:49:04 application. What was that David? Probably about three or four years ago you released 01:03:50:21 - 01:03:56:18 your app. Patterns. Patterns test generator. Yeah, so Patterns is a very cool application to 01:03:56:18 - 01:04:01:08 be able to interface and do calibration on computer monitors, displays. It's a very cool 01:04:01:08 - 01:04:06:15 app. We'll let him talk about it a little bit more in detail in just a bit. But David's expertise is 01:04:06:15 - 01:04:10:27 obviously with anything calibration. He's probably, I mean, I'm guessing David at this point, you 01:04:10:29 - 01:04:16:00 probably calibrated a hundred thousand displays or something ridiculous. It's probably a lot, right? 01:04:16:25 - 01:04:21:18 It's about, you know, actually, I actually had to look this up at some point. It's about 25,000. 01:04:21:26 - 01:04:28:07 Oh my gosh. So if anybody's going to have the experience and who's sort of seen it and done it 01:04:28:07 - 01:04:34:26 and seen all the gotchas is David. So guys, we can't thank you enough for jumping on. We're really 01:04:34:26 - 01:04:39:15 excited to sort of talk about some of this stuff. And so I want to spend just kind of a couple 01:04:39:16 - 01:04:44:10 minutes with each one of you. And then like I said, in part two of this, of this series, we'll 01:04:44:10 - 01:04:50:05 come back and kind of explore some of the hot button topics, things that are on our minds that 01:04:50:05 - 01:04:57:03 you guys are experts in. So, Bram, let's start with you, man. I'll put you on the spot. You know, I 01:04:57:03 - 01:05:02:28 think when I think of your expertise, I often think about all of the, I don't know, probably at this 01:05:02:28 - 01:05:09:08 point, thousands of hours that you've spent in conference rooms at shows, you know, at big trade 01:05:09:08 - 01:05:13:16 shows, listening to monitor presentations. And I'm not talking about like the marketing people. 01:05:13:16 - 01:05:19:11 I'm talking about like the uber engineer guys who are talking about like sub pixels and 01:05:19:19 - 01:05:27:05 quantum this and quantum that, right? I guess my first question for you is, you know, as a monitor, 01:05:27:13 - 01:05:33:29 you know, provider maker, what goes into picking technologies and panels and stuff? And kind of 01:05:33:29 - 01:05:38:03 how do you stay on top of that? Like, because it seems like it's an ever shifting, ever developing 01:05:38:14 - 01:05:44:16 kind of landscape. Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me on and really appreciate what you guys 01:05:44:16 - 01:05:52:04 are doing. And yeah, it's, it's always a challenge. So what we do is we have good contacts at various 01:05:52:07 - 01:05:56:18 semiconductor manufacturers. So the big companies that make the panels themselves, 01:05:57:13 - 01:06:00:26 so we have ongoing relationships with those. So a lot of that is just relationships that have been 01:06:00:26 - 01:06:05:10 built over the last 20 years and having discussions about what they're working on their future road 01:06:05:10 - 01:06:12:27 maps. There's other, you know, like any industry, there's also trade shows and organizations that 01:06:12:27 - 01:06:19:03 kind of cater to our very niche kind of needs. So one that we try to go to, for example, or I 01:06:19:03 - 01:06:26:25 personally go to is SIDs Display Week at SIDs Display Week. And that event essentially brings 01:06:26:26 - 01:06:33:03 together those semiconductor manufacturers, probe manufacturers. It's kind of a level removed from 01:06:33:03 - 01:06:38:17 this type of stuff. I think that colorists, editors, DITs are interested in because it's not complete 01:06:38:17 - 01:06:44:21 products. But it is a good opportunity to meet with those companies, talk to them about what 01:06:44:21 - 01:06:50:15 they're doing. Obviously, a lot of this happens overseas. So this is one of the few kind of events 01:06:50:15 - 01:06:55:07 that happens more, more state side. And then just a lot of, you know, industry trade stuff, press 01:06:55:07 - 01:07:00:21 releases, we try to keep on top of what everybody is making and how technologies are evolving. 01:07:02:09 - 01:07:06:14 you often times get really excited about things on paper and they get really disappointed when you 01:07:06:14 - 01:07:13:07 evaluate them. So a lot of evaluation, a lot of rejection of technologies. So yeah, it's a kind 01:07:13:07 - 01:07:21:08 of ongoing ever evolving process. And it's, yeah, it's a kind of a full time job. Yeah, I was gonna, 01:07:21:08 - 01:07:26:06 I was gonna say, do you have as a display manufacturer and being more in the know than we 01:07:26:06 - 01:07:32:06 are, do you struggle with having to wade through a lot of the marketing part of this as well? Like, 01:07:32:06 - 01:07:36:21 you know, like, because it just seems to me that like, you know, one of the challenges for, you know, 01:07:36:21 - 01:07:41:00 our audience as colorists, editors, etc. is like, you know, a company will come out and be like, 01:07:41:00 - 01:07:46:25 hey, this is the ultra quantum, you know, do hickey. And it sounds revolutionary, right? But like, 01:07:47:01 - 01:07:51:29 do you have to wade through that same level? Or when you're evaluating displays, is it more of 01:07:51:29 - 01:07:54:23 like, no, we get rid of that, we're just dealing with the engineering part of it? 01:07:55:23 - 01:08:00:09 So I think we've learned enough over, you know, I've been in the industry about 20 years now, 01:08:00:09 - 01:08:06:01 and we've learned enough about evaluating specs, specifications, even just on paper, 01:08:06:01 - 01:08:10:10 and we can quickly wade through a lot of the marketing BS and know, you know, what we can 01:08:10:10 - 01:08:15:17 expect out of display technology based on things like the report specifications or reported 01:08:17:01 - 01:08:21:04 spectral power distributions, sometimes we get access to that information. But there's a lot 01:08:21:04 - 01:08:27:14 of marketing hype to wade through. It's not so much the marketing hype is easy for us to kind 01:08:27:14 - 01:08:34:12 of suss out what's real, what's, you know, again, hype. The harder thing for me, the thing that 01:08:34:28 - 01:08:40:23 frustrates me more is misuse of terminology, or giving things names that are intentionally 01:08:40:28 - 01:08:50:26 very confusing. You mean LED TVs? LED TVs, you know, calling things, you know, very similarly 01:08:50:28 - 01:08:56:15 named things like tandem primary, this and that and versus regular tandem OLED. Well, I gotta say, 01:08:56:15 - 01:09:01:25 I was really disappointed when I bought a quantum dot television that I like didn't get entangled 01:09:01:27 - 01:09:05:17 and like, all of a sudden just start seeing I don't know, that's bad joke, but you get the idea. 01:09:06:24 - 01:09:13:29 It's true. So some of those naming conventions and stuff can be confusing. And yeah, so that that's 01:09:13:29 - 01:09:18:09 always a challenge. But I think we've gotten pretty good at sussing those things out. And ultimately, 01:09:18:09 - 01:09:23:24 what it comes down to is buy samples, test the product, see if we think there's a market for it. 01:09:24:12 - 01:09:29:06 And then also try to do our due diligence on, you know, staying power of that technology, 01:09:29:11 - 01:09:33:28 because that's really been the biggest frustration over my last 20 years of doing this is that you 01:09:34:00 - 01:09:37:25 get really excited about something. And what we've seen time and again is that unfortunately, 01:09:37:25 - 01:09:44:05 a lot of times the best performing technologies are so niche, so expensive that the providers 01:09:44:05 - 01:09:49:24 of those technologies, there's not really a market here, we're going to stop. And so we've seen those 01:09:49:24 - 01:09:53:26 instances, sometimes it's a, you know, thing where you have three, four or five years of notice, 01:09:53:26 - 01:09:59:15 and then sometimes it's just overnight that company's gone. So we've gotten a lot more careful 01:09:59:20 - 01:10:04:24 about that. And luckily, a lot of the mass market stuff that's produced in high qualities and tends 01:10:04:24 - 01:10:10:26 to have staying power has gotten a lot better. So there's less of that worry now than there used to 01:10:10:26 - 01:10:14:21 be. But that's been an ongoing frustration over the years. Yeah, I was gonna I imagine that's a 01:10:14:21 - 01:10:19:17 challenging kind of thing. Like, how do you like, you're having to read the tea leaves a little bit 01:10:19:17 - 01:10:23:10 about like, okay, this is what's coming, this is what's potentially gonna have the same power. 01:10:23:22 - 01:10:30:11 Like in the broader sense, would you say that your your work, your R&D work is a couple years 01:10:30:14 - 01:10:35:16 or a couple months? Like, what's the time period ahead that you generally are for when like a guy 01:10:35:16 - 01:10:39:14 like me is buying a monitor, right? Is that a couple years is a couple months? Like does it vary? 01:10:40:07 - 01:10:46:11 It does vary. So when we do like the back, the back end hardware that drives the panels, when we 01:10:46:11 - 01:10:52:08 do a change there, that is something that typically will be, you know, in development for a couple of 01:10:52:09 - 01:10:57:20 years before anybody knows or sees anything about it. In terms of new panel technologies, though, 01:10:57:20 - 01:11:02:12 as long as we have a platform that supports the type of connection going to that panel, whether 01:11:02:12 - 01:11:08:19 that's, you know, EDP or LVDS, or whatever it may be at UHD 4K, HD resolutions, whatever it is, 01:11:09:02 - 01:11:13:14 as long as we have the back end hardware that can fit into that, is it's actually, you'd be surprised 01:11:13:14 - 01:11:17:14 how quickly we can get a prototype ready. So we can get an extra panel and have something up and 01:11:17:15 - 01:11:23:07 running in like three, four weeks. So it can go quickly, then there's always, you know, the 01:11:23:07 - 01:11:29:18 debugging and the fine tuning, and we're constantly iterating, trying to improve, you know, find 01:11:29:18 - 01:11:35:03 problems, catch problems, improve on things. But it is a, you know, it's a constant evolution. 01:11:36:16 - 01:11:41:23 But yeah, it varies a bit. But there are, you know, there are platforms that have been in the works for 01:11:42:02 - 01:11:46:19 years that haven't seen the light of day yet. But there is a lot of that happening behind the scenes 01:11:46:19 - 01:11:52:26 Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I often I think it's easy to think of like a company like FSI or 01:11:52:26 - 01:11:57:13 other monitor companies as like hardware companies. But like the fascinating thing to me is like, 01:11:57:29 - 01:12:02:23 and I don't know if this is 100% accurate, it just seems this way to me is that like, 01:12:03:02 - 01:12:07:25 you guys are almost more of a software company at times than you are than you are a hardware 01:12:07:25 - 01:12:12:03 company, right? Figuring out like functionality of this button is going to do this. This is the 01:12:12:04 - 01:12:17:04 feature that this group looks for. Can you speak to just in general, like how 01:12:18:15 - 01:12:23:25 the the process or the challenge of kind of like designing features and figuring out like, okay, 01:12:23:25 - 01:12:27:27 this is going to be something that we think this group of, you know, our customers are going to 01:12:27:27 - 01:12:31:26 want or need. Like what goes into that thinking and the kind of like the development of that? 01:12:32:10 - 01:12:36:03 Yeah, so when we have new panels or new back end architecture that's developed, 01:12:37:03 - 01:12:43:14 we take the approach of first focusing on color reproduction, color accuracy, and then also 01:12:43:15 - 01:12:48:17 displaying video correctly. That means things like, you know, displaying whatever, you know, 01:12:48:17 - 01:12:53:03 frame rate you're getting at an even integer frame rate on screen so that you have proper cadence of 01:12:53:06 - 01:12:59:13 video. So we work on the basics first. That's we start with what most people buy a monitor from us 01:12:59:15 - 01:13:05:01 for, and that is color accuracy and accurate display of the content on screen. Then from there, 01:13:05:03 - 01:13:09:20 we have, you know, things that we think a lot of times stuff that customers haven't asked for, 01:13:09:20 - 01:13:13:05 but that we think will bring a lot of value to market. We have a lot of our own ideas about 01:13:13:05 - 01:13:16:25 those things and we develop those out and we, you know, have those come out as features. 01:13:17:08 - 01:13:23:05 But you're right. We are very much a company that focuses on we're essentially a company that, 01:13:23:05 - 01:13:26:22 you know, hardware is part of what we do certainly, but a lot of our time and effort 01:13:27:10 - 01:13:32:02 is spent on firmware. A lot of that comes from feedback from customers. And a lot of times it's 01:13:32:03 - 01:13:36:22 just us, you know, we think we know how our displays are going to be used and then you're 01:13:36:22 - 01:13:41:02 oftentimes surprised. So a good kind of, I think the two real world examples of that, 01:13:41:02 - 01:13:44:23 when we introduced the XMP series monitors were like, cool, we're going to focus on UHD, 01:13:45:00 - 01:13:50:05 Progressive, PQ, HLG. That's what people are going to be using these for. Then we start. 01:13:50:05 - 01:13:52:14 And then there's Rob, then there's Robbie making web videos. 01:13:53:10 - 01:13:57:10 It's not just web videos, but it is people like you who are like, you're like, 01:13:57:11 - 01:14:01:15 hey, you know what? We deliver an inordinate amount of interlaced still. And we're like, 01:14:01:15 - 01:14:07:04 oh crap, you know, because the inside baseball, one of the things that I, I ought of the many 01:14:07:04 - 01:14:10:18 things that I drive Bram crazy with, it's the fact that I'm always saying something about 01:14:10:18 - 01:14:15:27 interlacing and Bram's general responses. Aren't we over interlacing yet? Like, 01:14:15:27 - 01:14:20:26 what's going on should have died a long time ago? Yeah. But, but, but it is. So, so those types of things. 01:14:20:26 - 01:14:24:11 So we added those as features. So that's a good example of like, what I love is that, 01:14:24:12 - 01:14:29:03 yes, we build a hardware platform, to do a certain thing, but that platform tends to be really 01:14:29:03 - 01:14:33:06 flexible, right? And we can do a lot with firmware. So when we, when we got a lot of this feedback 01:14:33:06 - 01:14:37:24 about, hey, I want to see interlaced on screen, like a CRT monitor would show it, we did that. 01:14:38:04 - 01:14:43:01 And I think we're one of the few kind of large format monitors, certainly, certainly UHD 01:14:43:01 - 01:14:48:09 resolution monitors that actually can replicate interlaced very much like a reference grade CRT 01:14:48:09 - 01:14:52:14 would. So you can see things like field reversals, accurately. Now there are a lot of consumer TVs 01:14:52:14 - 01:14:58:03 that do a good job of, of, of converting interlaced to progressive and making it look 01:14:58:03 - 01:15:02:13 really good. But typically those have six, seven frames of processing delay to do that. 01:15:02:19 - 01:15:07:11 And ultimately you're still not seeing it as interlaced on screen. So what we do is we're 01:15:07:11 - 01:15:11:16 actually showing it to you as interlaced. The other good example was HD. We thought everybody 01:15:11:16 - 01:15:16:21 was going to be using these things for UHD and just UHD and 4K. And that's it. A lot of people 01:15:16:21 - 01:15:21:05 were like, Hey, we need HD. And we were doing very, you know, very basic nearest neighbor scaling. 01:15:21:15 - 01:15:27:14 And it has jaggy edges when you do that. So it is, we developed a higher-quality bicubic scaling. 01:15:27:29 - 01:15:30:28 So now that scaling is approved. So those are the types of things where it's just customer 01:15:30:28 - 01:15:35:02 feedback, right? People saying, Hey, you know, these are what we think are highest priority. 01:15:35:02 - 01:15:38:22 And then it's, you know, like any company working on software or firmware, it's, you know, 01:15:39:04 - 01:15:42:17 priority lists, you know, where, what do we think is going to have the greatest impact to the 01:15:42:17 - 01:15:46:08 industry? What's going to, you know, selfishly help us sell more displays? 01:15:47:20 - 01:15:48:18 Yeah, squashing of bugs that kinda stuff 01:15:48:18 - 01:15:54:08 we're constantly iterating there. And in post, they're really only a core set of things. They're not, 01:15:54:08 - 01:15:59:10 there's not that much to tackle. So a lot of, you know, a lot of the preliminary stuff, 01:15:59:10 - 01:16:03:04 or let's get everything ready for post. And then we start digging into catering more to those, 01:16:03:18 - 01:16:07:29 to those production applications, where there are a lot more of these like really niche, 01:16:07:29 - 01:16:12:28 you know, requests like, Hey, I want to do four, four images into a monitor. I want to do custom 01:16:13:02 - 01:16:19:03 look LUTs. I want to control it via Livegrade. And so we build those things out over time to cater to 01:16:19:03 - 01:16:23:28 more and more. I mean, we already operate in a super niche space, right? And then we cater to 01:16:24:04 - 01:16:28:07 niche segments of this already niche space, but, but that, that's, that's what makes us different 01:16:28:07 - 01:16:32:17 than an off the shelf computer monitor or something, right? So we enjoy that. That's, 01:16:32:17 - 01:16:37:16 that's part of what, what we think makes us a little special. So yeah, so we spend our time 01:16:37:16 - 01:16:38:09 and effort on it. 01:16:38:16 - 01:16:42:16 Yeah. I mean, in part two, we'll get more into some of your prognostications on like what the 01:16:43:06 - 01:16:47:11 industry and the future trends are. But I got one last question before we, we 01:16:47:28 - 01:16:54:12 ask Nate a few ones here as well. Like one of the things I'm fascinated by is, and this might be 01:16:54:12 - 01:16:59:29 unique to you, but it just seems in general that I see this a lot with display companies like that 01:16:59:29 - 01:17:05:11 intersection of color science and that this technology too is also really interesting to 01:17:05:11 - 01:17:10:01 me. Like I think a lot of people who know you or have come to know you or see you at a trade show 01:17:10:02 - 01:17:15:15 floor, like you become a resource for color science, you know, type questions, right? And 01:17:15:22 - 01:17:21:10 I know you spend a lot of time, you know, studying this stuff and talking to other experts. Like just 01:17:21:17 - 01:17:27:00 briefly, what is that intersection like for you? Like, cause like, you know, obviously color 01:17:27:00 - 01:17:32:04 science has a lot of uses, meanings, et cetera, but as a display manufacturer, like why is that 01:17:32:04 - 01:17:37:14 something that, you know, you guys focus on so much? Is it part of that accuracy equation? Is it part of, 01:17:38:02 - 01:17:44:08 uh, you know, just answering people's questions? Like why spend so much time learning something, 01:17:44:08 - 01:17:49:13 you know, and being an expert in color science? Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, people buy our 01:17:49:13 - 01:17:54:03 monitors, I think primarily for accurate color reproduction, right? That's, that's kind of the 01:17:54:03 - 01:17:58:16 paramount thing. And, um, as I tell, you know, like our sales team, for example, it's like, 01:17:58:16 - 01:18:02:22 what you're really selling people is confidence, right? So to be confident that the image is 01:18:02:22 - 01:18:07:00 correct. So the only way to be confident that the image is correct is to really know the color 01:18:07:01 - 01:18:10:29 science through and through. So you need to know the industry specifications. You need to know how 01:18:10:29 - 01:18:15:28 to adhere those specifications. You need to know how to calibrate those specifications. Um, and you 01:18:15:28 - 01:18:20:13 need to understand kind of the gotchas and caveats and cause none of this is straightforward, you know, 01:18:20:13 - 01:18:27:03 and especially when you get to, um, to more, you know, advanced, if you want to say targets, 01:18:27:03 - 01:18:33:11 like we talked about PQ and HLG and Rec. 2020 and, and, you know, uh, out of monitor gamut targets 01:18:33:17 - 01:18:37:20 and how you handle that first, uh, you know, cause there's, there's multiple ways to handle it. 01:18:37:20 - 01:18:41:17 What's the correct way to handle it. And then we also interface a lot with industry standards 01:18:41:17 - 01:18:46:24 bodies, you know, so we try to talk to people at SMPTE. We try to talk to people at EBU. Um, we, 01:18:46:24 - 01:18:52:24 we participate in, you know, uh, you know, very nuanced niche events. Like we did December, 01:18:53:05 - 01:18:58:12 we did a metamerism experts day in the UK. And that sort of stuff is really fascinating to me on a 01:18:58:12 - 01:19:03:13 personal level, but it also helps us, you know, uh, cater to our, to our clients because our clients 01:19:03:13 - 01:19:09:03 have these questions, you know, so, Hey, when I'm in Rec. 2020, why does it do this or what should it 01:19:09:03 - 01:19:14:26 be doing? Um, Hey, when I'm in PQ, you know, what, what ranges should I be operating in all these 01:19:14:26 - 01:19:18:16 sorts of things? Like we need to know that stuff. And then again, when it comes down to the color 01:19:18:16 - 01:19:24:19 science part of it, you know, the challenges like metamerism failures, of metamerism, in 01:19:24:21 - 01:19:30:29 terms of display matching, um, uh, inter observer, metamerism, uh, all those sorts of things become, 01:19:30:29 - 01:19:33:23 become really important that you can only understand that if you really understand the 01:19:33:23 - 01:19:38:23 underlying color science. So that's why we're obsessed with it and why we spend so much 01:19:38:23 - 01:19:44:19 time trying to learn everything we can about those topics. So now I want to talk to Nate a little bit 01:19:44:19 - 01:19:51:22 about his perspective from Dolby as a color scientist and an engineer, because I think 01:19:52:14 - 01:19:58:10 Dolby has a pretty unique place in the industry when it comes to displays, right? They've driven 01:19:58:21 - 01:20:04:23 display innovation in the past, making prototypes, making new technologies, basically inventing and 01:20:04:23 - 01:20:11:10 introducing us to what I consider to be, you know, the biggest shift in how we encode and display an 01:20:11:10 - 01:20:20:04 image since color, which is HDR. And, but at the end of the day, they don't make TVs. They don't 01:20:20:04 - 01:20:28:00 make or sell reference monitors. They make kind of innovative technologies around the imaging 01:20:28:04 - 01:20:35:01 space and partner with all these companies like FSI, like the consumer TV manufacturers to kind of 01:20:35:01 - 01:20:42:03 make sure the image is shown in the best kind of possible light. And a big part of that I know is 01:20:42:26 - 01:20:51:01 testing a huge array and variety of monitors, right? I've seen pictures. And when we went to Dolby, 01:20:51:01 - 01:20:58:18 I've seen like rooms filled with monitors of, you know, everywhere from little ones to huge ones, 01:20:58:18 - 01:21:04:10 to prototypes, to off the shelf consumer TVs, to whackadoodle stuff that you've never even heard of. 01:21:05:00 - 01:21:10:22 Why is it so important to test all these monitors and tell us a little bit about what actually kind 01:21:10:22 - 01:21:16:27 of goes into testing all these monitors of different capabilities? You know, how do you 01:21:16:27 - 01:21:20:04 kind of bring it all together into, okay, I'm going to look at a monitor, this is what I'm going to 01:21:20:04 - 01:21:25:00 look for. And this is why I'm going to look for those factors. Yeah, sure. Happy to talk about 01:21:25:00 - 01:21:30:29 that. And thank you guys for having me on again. I'm honored to be a returning guest. But yeah, 01:21:30:29 - 01:21:37:03 no, I to Joey's point, I think Dolby has a really cool intersection, just as a company. It's one of 01:21:37:04 - 01:21:41:14 the reasons why I love working here is that we really do sit at this really niche intersection 01:21:41:15 - 01:21:45:28 of art and science, which is something that's very, you know, it's home for me, I'm very 01:21:45:28 - 01:21:51:12 passionate about, but also very cool to see how we've influenced, you know, the changing ecosystem, 01:21:51:18 - 01:21:57:11 and also really, really great to always see folks coming to us as a resource or, you know, a beacon 01:21:57:24 - 01:22:03:07 in the evangelization and education for HDR. So your question about monitors is a great one. 01:22:03:20 - 01:22:09:11 Part of the complexity here is that we deal with things on both the creation side and also the 01:22:09:11 - 01:22:15:16 playback side, right? So from my point of view, I work typically, most frequently on the content 01:22:15:16 - 01:22:22:00 creation side of things. So the way I typically will approach any sort of display evaluation is 01:22:22:00 - 01:22:28:10 wearing this hat of like, hey, would this display be suitable for creating HDR content that will 01:22:28:10 - 01:22:35:13 eventually be mastered in Dolby Vision and go downstream to a Dolby Vision device. So, from a very fundamental level 01:22:35:13 - 01:22:40:04 think it's a lot of the same sort of considerations of Bram was just speaking about, right? Things 01:22:40:04 - 01:22:45:17 like color accuracy, luminance performance, black level, stepping out of black, how additive is the 01:22:45:17 - 01:22:51:21 display. And that's a lot of kind of the more scientific or numerical objective approach that 01:22:51:21 - 01:22:58:01 I would say. But there's also a really big component of usability, right? So as these displays 01:22:58:06 - 01:23:04:09 continue to become more accessible, more folks are reaching them and using them, but that also 01:23:04:09 - 01:23:10:02 means that more uneducated folks, right? So people that don't have a background in color science or 01:23:10:02 - 01:23:16:00 maybe are getting into editing or post or VFX or things for the first time. So a lot of it's not 01:23:16:00 - 01:23:20:24 just, hey, how accurately does this track PQ or what are the primaries looking like? But it's like 01:23:21:03 - 01:23:25:17 something as simple as, hey, how easy is it to navigate the menu? How easy can you set up 01:23:25:17 - 01:23:32:18 picture profiles and do things? And one of my close colleagues at Dolby Timo Kunkel and I talk 01:23:32:18 - 01:23:37:26 about this all the time. And we say that in general, I'd say that we're getting to a spot where 01:23:38:00 - 01:23:44:08 displays are continuously improving, which is really great for HDR accessibility throughout 01:23:44:09 - 01:23:49:14 the whole ecosystem. But they're coming with a lot of added complexities. And I'm sure we can talk 01:23:49:14 - 01:23:54:20 about this a little more in the next episode as well. But I almost equate it to things like when 01:23:54:22 - 01:24:00:04 you shoot a video or a picture on your iPhone, right? Where it's very hard to manually dial it 01:24:00:04 - 01:24:02:24 in and you're kind of just trusting that the software is doing the right things, right? And 01:24:02:24 - 01:24:07:01 that's permeated all the way to displays. And that's why reference displays like the ones that 01:24:07:01 - 01:24:12:27 FSI make are so valuable, right? Because there are no algorithms tweaking things. It's literally just 01:24:12:27 - 01:24:17:02 like signal in, signal out and being able to trust that in sell confidence like you guys were talking 01:24:17:02 - 01:24:23:00 about earlier is super, super important. But so that's kind of how the testing is done or kind 01:24:23:01 - 01:24:29:04 of the framework we typically like to use. But from also just say kind of an ecosystem point of 01:24:29:04 - 01:24:33:14 view. We also just like to compare different technologies, see where the industry is heading. 01:24:34:12 - 01:24:40:29 It's very important for us to also stay up to date on informing the partners like Bram and 01:24:41:06 - 01:24:45:16 FSI and all these other folks of like what our users are asking for. Because ultimately, 01:24:45:16 - 01:24:50:12 like Dolby has a vested interest in creating or help folks creating the best HDR content so that 01:24:50:15 - 01:24:55:28 when you get to the end user experience, you're getting really compelling viewing experiences. 01:24:57:00 - 01:25:00:22 So we're obviously very vested in helping our partners create the best displays as possible as 01:25:00:22 - 01:25:04:21 well. And we'd like to hope that that's valuable. So maybe Bram, I don't know. I'd like to hope 01:25:04:21 - 01:25:10:05 that Bram appreciates my evaluations. Yeah. And that's interesting because I feel like you 01:25:10:05 - 01:25:16:13 kind of have to sit between the consumer, the artist and the manufacturers, right? Because 01:25:17:05 - 01:25:22:06 the artists might be asking for one thing, I just want to do everything 100 nits the same way I've 01:25:22:06 - 01:25:27:06 been doing it forever because I have one film print LUT that I love and why doesn't it always 01:25:27:06 - 01:25:32:00 look the same in HDR? Whereas, you know, the consumer TV manufacturers and less so the 01:25:32:00 - 01:25:37:03 professional monitor manufacturers, but to some degree, they want to kind of show off the technology 01:25:37:03 - 01:25:43:17 and take it to, oh, you can go to five bajillion nits on this. How great is that? How do you kind 01:25:43:17 - 01:25:50:29 of navigate when you're talking to both, you know, manufacturers and artists and other kind of 01:25:50:29 - 01:25:55:04 kind of when you're sitting in the middle of all of this, how do you kind of bring it all together 01:25:55:04 - 01:26:00:02 and say, okay, here's how I'm going to, you know, get a set of recommendations that will kind of 01:26:00:02 - 01:26:06:03 make everybody happy and nobody mad. It's tough. That's, that's very hard. You'll notice 01:26:06:03 - 01:26:12:01 David and Bram both laughing at that. This is why Nate still has hair because he's a lot younger. 01:26:14:10 - 01:26:16:17 Dave and I are both bald now. That's right! 01:26:18:23 - 01:26:22:10 No, it's a really good question, honestly. And this is something that we speak to a lot in our 01:26:22:10 - 01:26:27:12 trainings is that I think this whole discussion was a lot easier back, you know, a few decades ago 01:26:27:12 - 01:26:33:20 when folks were no matter where you were looking at some flavor of CRT, relatively similar size, 01:26:33:20 - 01:26:39:18 right? There's just so many formats and variability now between different display types, whether it's 01:26:39:18 - 01:26:45:13 OLED, LCD, dual layer, you know, QD OLED, you know, there's so many different flavors of display 01:26:45:13 - 01:26:48:28 technology, but then there's also so many form factors, right? I mean, this is something that's 01:26:48:28 - 01:26:54:03 really cool to me about Dolby, in general, is that we're not just talking about Dolby Cinema or TVs 01:26:54:03 - 01:26:59:23 at home now, we're in, you know, iPhones, tablets, laptops, computer monitors. I mean, we have 01:27:00:10 - 01:27:05:20 displays of into cars that are Dolby Vision enabled, which is mind blowing to me. So I think 01:27:05:20 - 01:27:11:01 that makes it really tricky as well, right? Because not only are you introducing the variability in the 01:27:11:01 - 01:27:15:09 technology, but also the environment. And then, you know, you have issues like ambient light, you 01:27:15:09 - 01:27:20:05 know, viewing distance angles, like, you know, you could go down a rabbit hole very quickly with what 01:27:20:05 - 01:27:24:19 makes this stuff difficult. So that's why like, when I do my evaluations, I love when I get the 01:27:24:19 - 01:27:27:26 reference monitors in, because I'm like, this is easy, like, these are great. This is very simple, 01:27:27:29 - 01:27:34:21 like more cut and dry than some of the other types. But also, you know, there's applications outside 01:27:34:21 - 01:27:39:18 of the specs, like I was saying, right? So, you know, a great, you know, TV might not make a good, 01:27:39:27 - 01:27:44:15 you know, display to use on set or things like that. There's things like, there's so many 01:27:44:15 - 01:27:49:10 different applications, whether it's for VFX, you know, first color, even something like a GUI 01:27:49:10 - 01:27:53:08 monitor, or, you know, monitor and on set, like, they all require different, you know, physical 01:27:53:11 - 01:27:58:14 capabilities and image quality parameters. So long-winded answer to your question is it's really 01:27:58:14 - 01:28:06:25 tough. So that kind of brings me to the general idea of, you know, when you look at a display, 01:28:07:18 - 01:28:13:14 or especially a consumer TV, you know, you go to the store, you buy one, it's got a little Dolby 01:28:13:14 - 01:28:20:11 Vision badge on it. What does that actually mean on the back end? What are you getting as a consumer 01:28:20:13 - 01:28:28:04 when you buy a television that has the official Dolby Vision badge and certification on it? 01:28:28:27 - 01:28:32:07 Yeah, that's a great question. And again, another common one we get all the time. So 01:28:33:01 - 01:28:39:05 there's a big misconception that Dolby somehow, like, was instrumental in helping create or 01:28:39:05 - 01:28:44:13 manufacture these specific displays. That's not the case. So whenever you go into any sort of 01:28:44:13 - 01:28:48:19 retail space that sells, you know, TVs, or whether it be a desktop monitor, things like that, 01:28:48:23 - 01:28:53:21 if you see a Dolby Vision logo on the box, all that means is that display has the capability to decode 01:28:53:27 - 01:28:59:15 and do the display mapping required by a Dolby Vision encoded signal. So if you pull up a Dolby 01:28:59:15 - 01:29:06:05 Vision TV and you start up your Netflix, Disney+, whatever OTT service that supports Vision, 01:29:06:21 - 01:29:10:16 and that specific piece of content was mastered in Dolby Vision, and you have the, you know, 01:29:10:16 - 01:29:14:25 the according subscription model or whatever you need, that will play back on Dolby Vision. 01:29:14:26 - 01:29:22:26 And it will automatically trigger that display's Dolby Vision mode. So it'll automatically flag it 01:29:23:03 - 01:29:27:28 on the signal, the TV will flip into, typically speaking, it's the Dolby Vision 01:29:28:17 - 01:29:33:24 bright mode, as it's called on most TVs. You can also then change, there's things like 01:29:34:09 - 01:29:38:11 Dolby Vision dark, Dolby Vision bright, we have game modes, vivid modes, etc, for various 01:29:38:14 - 01:29:43:02 different models. So typically speaking, the bright mode is always the default out of the box. 01:29:43:16 - 01:29:48:03 And that's just because we're assuming that the average living room is not as well controlled, 01:29:48:11 - 01:29:55:00 maybe likewise as a grading suite. Yeah. So, you know, staying in the consumer world for a little 01:29:55:00 - 01:30:02:11 bit, how do you feel, you know, in terms of the adoption and accessibility of HDR, both content 01:30:02:11 - 01:30:12:00 and monitoring is these days? Because I think, you know, just a few years ago, HDR was really, really 01:30:13:00 - 01:30:17:24 God, we keep saying everything is niche in this episode, but it kind of was, right? 01:30:17:24 - 01:30:23:13 I think, no, I think you're right. I think a few years ago it seemed, and we talked about this in 01:30:23:13 - 01:30:27:26 the episode, both episodes that we did with Bram and Nate previously, I think that, you know, for 01:30:27:26 - 01:30:33:04 a while, you know, HDR was a little bit of a country club ecosystem, right? It was happening 01:30:33:04 - 01:30:38:09 at the highest end, at the highest productions, etc. And now that that's trickled down, right? 01:30:38:10 - 01:30:45:04 I think that people are... A big, big, big part of this, in my opinion, is when Apple decided to make 01:30:45:08 - 01:30:52:08 all their iPhones, take photos and videos and display photos and videos in HDR by default, 01:30:52:08 - 01:30:59:06 right? Now you have an entire swath of the consumer landscape doing their everyday day-to-day 01:30:59:06 - 01:31:03:27 interaction with the device. And now they're seeing HDR where they weren't seeing HDR before. 01:31:04:15 - 01:31:08:06 And they just kind of, they don't know, you know, the average user might not know, hey, 01:31:08:13 - 01:31:13:16 I shot this photo on my iPhone in HDR and I'm looking at it in HDR and it looks really good. 01:31:14:06 - 01:31:18:12 They just know that if I have my iPhone and I take a picture with it, it looks better now. 01:31:18:25 - 01:31:23:16 And if somebody else with an iPhone sends me a picture that they took, it looks better on this 01:31:23:16 - 01:31:30:24 display. Is that something that is actually, tangibly kind of improving and moving the industry 01:31:30:27 - 01:31:36:20 forward, kind of having these manufacturers, you know, really put more HDR into everything? 01:31:37:22 - 01:31:42:12 Are people adopting HDR more now than they have before? Or is it still 01:31:43:03 - 01:31:47:10 kind of that niche, nerdy thing for us display geeks? 01:31:48:15 - 01:31:53:28 No, that's a good question. And I think the, the good thing is, is that I think you're correct in 01:31:53:28 - 01:31:57:24 the sense that from my point of view, and you know, you talked to most folks at Dolby would 01:31:58:24 - 01:32:04:04 unanimously agree that HDR is as accessible as it's ever been. And a big proponent of that, 01:32:04:04 - 01:32:09:13 like you mentioned is the Apple ecosystem. Obviously they have the scale and the just raw 01:32:09:13 - 01:32:13:17 numbers to support something like this, right? Just to give kind of like a side anecdote, 01:32:13:29 - 01:32:18:17 a lot of the trainings I start, especially when I'm doing trainings for folks that are 01:32:18:20 - 01:32:24:23 maybe newer to HDR, not as well versed to think of like universities, education partners, things 01:32:24:23 - 01:32:29:15 like that. Whenever I'm in person, I like to do one of the first questions I'll ask is like, Hey, 01:32:29:21 - 01:32:34:08 who here has, you know, knowingly watched any sort of Dolby vision or gone to like a Dolby 01:32:34:08 - 01:32:38:12 Cinema? And if you have like a 50 person class, you usually get, you know, a handful of hands, 01:32:38:14 - 01:32:43:02 right? And I'll say like, okay, who has an iPhone 10 or later? And then, you know, like 75% of the 01:32:43:02 - 01:32:46:28 class raises their hand. And I'm like, any of you guys ever watch like your streaming services on 01:32:46:28 - 01:32:49:28 there? And you know, everybody, you know, keeps their hand up. I'm like, okay, so without even 01:32:50:00 - 01:32:55:29 knowing it, you've been watching HDR, Dolby Vision for years now, right? And this is even, 01:32:56:02 - 01:33:00:10 you know, permeating into things like social media. I mean, we have a ton of ton of influence 01:33:00:14 - 01:33:06:11 going on in that space. And we're seeing the numbers there. I mean, we have a lot of social 01:33:06:11 - 01:33:11:07 media platforms overseas launching HDR and Vision capabilities. I mean, YouTube, you can even upload 01:33:11:12 - 01:33:16:23 on HDR and YouTube now. So like, there's a lot of cool momentum there. But to your point, 01:33:16:23 - 01:33:20:21 Joey, I think that the thing we're seeing is that while it's accessible, I don't think a lot of 01:33:20:21 - 01:33:25:21 people really know that they're watching it, right? Or they're, is that a, is that a, is that a bad 01:33:25:22 - 01:33:30:16 thing? Yeah, I was going to say, kind of success of, you know, like if the technology means seamless, 01:33:30:16 - 01:33:34:28 right? Instead of making somebody to think about it, they're just getting, they go and they go, 01:33:34:28 - 01:33:38:24 oh, I got this Dolby Vision TV. I'm getting better, better results. That seems like a win too. 01:33:39:08 - 01:33:45:01 So when do we get to, if you had to put your crystal ball, when do we get to the ideal, 01:33:45:02 - 01:33:53:01 my ideal world of HDR is just the default. And we're kind of looking at SDR like we look at 4x3 safe 01:33:53:01 - 01:33:57:17 by three safe. That's a really good question. I'd be curious to hear Bram and David's answers to that. 01:33:57:17 - 01:34:02:00 But I would say we're at least still another like five years out. I think there's a lot of hesitation 01:34:02:11 - 01:34:08:20 in kind of the legacy creative community as well. I know, especially onset is an issue that we've 01:34:08:20 - 01:34:12:16 seen in the past. And we've tried to address that pretty directly at Dolby with a lot of our 01:34:12:24 - 01:34:17:04 newer education initiatives and helping folks better understand how to manage HDR on set too. 01:34:17:12 - 01:34:22:02 But I think the good news is, is that again, as the displays become more accessible, the price 01:34:22:02 - 01:34:27:11 barrier to get into HDR on set and during, you know, content acquisition has come down quite a bit too. 01:34:27:11 - 01:34:32:27 And I've heard a lot of, you know, pretty high up DPs saying like, you can't really use the budget 01:34:32:27 - 01:34:36:12 excuse anymore. Like this is something that you should be considering. But I think that also 01:34:36:12 - 01:34:41:22 requires like a pretty big overhaul on education as well. Right. I mean, you get into any of these 01:34:42:26 - 01:34:48:04 top echelon of film schools in the US and even overseas, like, you know, they're teaching SDR 01:34:48:04 - 01:34:52:06 predominantly still, right. And that needs to change to enable the next generation of content 01:34:52:06 - 01:34:57:21 creators, right. But I think having accessibility on iPhones and social media, being able to do it 01:34:58:07 - 01:35:01:07 certainly helps. I don't know if Bram or Dave wants to speak to that too. 01:35:01:15 - 01:35:06:17 Well, I have one more thing to add just to before we move on to chatting with David. And I think 01:35:06:17 - 01:35:11:24 this is kind of a question about the intersection of Bram's, you know, sphere and your sphere, 01:35:11:27 - 01:35:17:20 right. Bram, like the work that Dolby does as sort of a, I think of Dolby often as like, 01:35:17:20 - 01:35:23:12 as a research company, but they're sort of like a almost like pseudo standards body, right. 01:35:23:12 - 01:35:26:10 Because they're doing all this R&D. I mean, they're not a standards body, but you know what I'm 01:35:26:10 - 01:35:31:00 saying? Like they do all this R&D, they're having the high level meetings with SMPTE, ITU, etc. 01:35:31:18 - 01:35:37:11 I guess my question is the work that that Dolby does, Nate does, etc. How much does that inform, 01:35:38:05 - 01:35:42:23 you know, kind of like some of the things that you guys do on your end, the choices that you make, 01:35:42:23 - 01:35:47:05 the standards that you're adhering to that kind of stuff. Because I think that like, as Joey pointed 01:35:47:05 - 01:35:51:06 out with Dolby, it's like, okay, cool. Like they put their badge on something, get some licensing 01:35:51:08 - 01:35:57:25 fees and move on. But it seems to me for a company like yours, there's a lot more value behind the 01:35:57:25 - 01:36:01:08 scenes happening with something that Dolby is doing, like that work that Dolby is doing, right? 01:36:01:13 - 01:36:07:20 Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, 100%. I mean, what we do is, you know, we look, we do look to 01:36:07:20 - 01:36:13:09 and lean on Dolby a lot for guidance on what would be a best practice, you know, what design 01:36:13:09 - 01:36:20:01 objectives we should be trying to strive for. And, you know, I interface with Nate a ton, I think 01:36:20:01 - 01:36:25:23 Nate and I probably speak every month or two, just catch up about everything in the industry and 01:36:26:07 - 01:36:30:22 try to learn about what, you know, Dolby is working on, what Dolby's interests are, how we can better 01:36:30:22 - 01:36:35:19 facilitate, you know, content creators trying to make Dolby vision. And I think the answer to Joey's 01:36:35:21 - 01:36:41:10 earlier question in terms of when does it become the default? I think we can safely say that HDR 01:36:41:15 - 01:36:48:27 will be the default when it's no longer a premium add-on for most of the streaming services. So I 01:36:48:27 - 01:36:55:01 think when you sign up for a service and the price is just the default gives you HDR 01:36:55:05 - 01:36:57:16 That extra six bucks a month or whatever. Yeah, yeah. 01:36:57:25 - 01:37:00:23 Exactly. That's when we'll be there. And I think that's going to happen. That's going to be, 01:37:00:24 - 01:37:04:15 it's going to be one of these things where people are like, of course it needs to be HDR. 01:37:05:10 - 01:37:10:07 So we're not quite there yet, but I think we're making huge strides in that direction. And yeah, 01:37:10:07 - 01:37:15:13 like I said, we do lean a lot on Dolby's guidance there and try to cater to, you know, what they 01:37:15:13 - 01:37:19:07 see as the pain points in the industry as well within the, you know, limits of what display 01:37:19:07 - 01:37:23:27 technology can do. But yeah, we look to them a lot for advice and guidance. 01:37:24:08 - 01:37:29:21 Very cool. Well, David, you have been sitting there so patiently waiting for us to chat. 01:37:30:00 - 01:37:37:00 Thank you for that. I have to say, David, we did a, Joey and I did a like overview of calibration 01:37:37:03 - 01:37:41:19 episode a couple of weeks ago and we released it out there and all I could think was recording 01:37:41:23 - 01:37:46:10 when we were recording with, was that hopefully you weren't going to, it wasn't going to land 01:37:46:10 - 01:37:51:24 anywhere on your desk and you weren't going to see it. Right. I was operating from a place of 01:37:51:27 - 01:37:59:14 fear out of this because I have to be honest with you. You are a, I don't know. I mean, 01:37:59:16 - 01:38:03:25 all of you guys are, but I also, I consider you to be an industry giant, right? And it's just one 01:38:03:25 - 01:38:08:11 of those things where it's just sort of like, okay, don't say anything wrong. Don't get corrected by 01:38:08:11 - 01:38:14:14 David. Anybody who knows you realizes that you're just the sweetest guy and that's not your M.O. in 01:38:14:14 - 01:38:20:09 general. But I will say that we're really excited to have you on here because I think we could, 01:38:20:15 - 01:38:25:00 we, and we definitely need to do this again with you revisit our calibration episode because it's 01:38:25:00 - 01:38:30:23 such a deep and complex topic and you're one of the experts. So again, appreciate your patience, 01:38:30:23 - 01:38:35:18 but I have some questions for you if you're willing. So I wanted to start out with you 01:38:35:24 - 01:38:43:15 sort of this idea of kind of the consumer versus professional landscape when it comes to calibration. 01:38:43:25 - 01:38:50:20 Right. So like, you know, I think that in my perspective, what's exciting is that 01:38:50:28 - 01:38:56:16 TVs are getting better, right? That the performance of TVs are vastly improved. And more importantly, 01:38:57:12 - 01:39:02:25 so many more consumers are aware of kind of the idea of how calibration can improve 01:39:03:08 - 01:39:08:19 their general investment, you know, in their TV to get it looking its best. But I wanted to start 01:39:08:19 - 01:39:13:02 out by like this idea between professional and consumer, like when it comes to calibration and 01:39:13:02 - 01:39:18:01 the quality of this displays, having seen 25,000 or how many of you have calibrated, 01:39:18:19 - 01:39:24:17 is that a tangible difference in terms of accuracy and quality between the consumer 01:39:24:18 - 01:39:29:03 market, high end consumer market, even let's say, and in the professional world, are you literally 01:39:29:11 - 01:39:35:11 getting something that's more accurate if you buy a quote unquote professional display versus a 01:39:35:11 - 01:39:41:15 consumer display, if that makes sense? Well, first off, thank you for having me. And I am honored to 01:39:41:16 - 01:39:50:15 be your third guest ever. Yeah, it's amazing. In terms of the calibration of displays, 01:39:51:22 - 01:39:57:21 I think a lot of that comes down to, you know, the target audience, right? And then the budgets that 01:39:57:21 - 01:40:02:03 we have. So when you look at a consumer TV manufacturer, there's only so much time they can 01:40:02:03 - 01:40:06:04 put towards calibrating that display on the assembly line, right? Right. Going through that factory, 01:40:06:04 - 01:40:09:25 because the longer they have it on that line, the less they're getting through, the higher the costs 01:40:09:27 - 01:40:15:00 go up. And when you look at broadcast monitors in the professional market, you know, people like 01:40:15:00 - 01:40:18:22 FSI, they have a lot more time, right? They can put a little more time into them. Of course, 01:40:18:22 - 01:40:22:22 we also see those costs go up, right? You know, you might be paying, I don't know, Bram, what is 01:40:22:22 - 01:40:29:23 it $12,000 for an XMP310? Are you going to pay $12,000 for a 32 inch monitor in the consumer 01:40:29:23 - 01:40:33:29 space? You're probably not going to be paying that kind of money, but Bram's able to maybe do a 01:40:34:05 - 01:40:37:24 better factory calibration, because he'll put a little more time and energy into that. So we do 01:40:37:24 - 01:40:45:03 see on the pro side, most manufacturers putting in more time and energy into making sure they're 01:40:45:03 - 01:40:51:12 getting a display to their customer that has a higher level of accuracy. The question we always 01:40:51:12 - 01:40:56:06 have, and Bram and I talk about this all the time, is just because you got a display from even FSI 01:40:56:21 - 01:41:02:04 doesn't mean it's set up right. And what I mean by that is it comes in one mode, right? It comes in, 01:41:02:04 - 01:41:07:25 let's say 709. You can't just plug it in and start grading P3. You have to go in the menu, 01:41:07:25 - 01:41:12:27 you have to change it to what you're working in. And so that's something that if you bring a 01:41:12:27 - 01:41:17:14 calibrator out to your facility, we'll usually say, what's the mode you're working in? How's your 01:41:17:14 - 01:41:22:29 system set up? Oh, you're in full range. Let me make sure this monitor is in full range, right? 01:41:23:16 - 01:41:27:27 So you can get a monitor from a manufacturer that might be very well calibrated. You still have to 01:41:27:27 - 01:41:31:26 know how to use it. And that's very, very important because it doesn't matter how perfect your monitor 01:41:31:27 - 01:41:38:07 is calibrated if it's not in parity with the signal you're sending. That ruins the whole thing. 01:41:38:17 - 01:41:42:17 So we see that. On the consumer side, we do see things getting better. We see 01:41:42:25 - 01:41:49:08 displays getting more predictable. We see technology getting more stable. And so we do 01:41:49:08 - 01:41:54:01 start to see things coming off the assembly line a little bit better. And for AviCal with my 01:41:54:01 - 01:41:58:07 calibration hat on, that's not the best thing for an independent calibrator saying, hey, they're 01:41:58:08 - 01:42:02:12 getting better off the line. Don't worry, they're not perfect yet. There's still improvement to be 01:42:02:12 - 01:42:07:09 made. Okay. He's like, don't worry, that's calibrating run. But for Portrait, it's actually 01:42:07:09 - 01:42:10:23 good because we actually make some of the technology now being used in several factories. 01:42:10:23 - 01:42:12:05 By those CD manufacturers. Sure. 01:42:12:13 - 01:42:16:23 So Portrait is actually working with TV manufacturers on the line to apply some of our technologies 01:42:16:26 - 01:42:20:04 there. So it's good for Portrait that we're starting to get from the line, the independent 01:42:20:05 - 01:42:24:09 calibrator. I still think it's good. I still think there's enough for the independent calibrator out 01:42:24:10 - 01:42:30:01 there to make improvement that's noticeable. So David, I think one of the next questions I have 01:42:30:01 - 01:42:33:06 is just sort of the complexity of calibration. I know when I got started, and it's something 01:42:33:06 - 01:42:37:28 I've spoken to Bram about in the past, is that if you're not doing this every single day, 01:42:38:15 - 01:42:43:20 the software, the tools, et cetera, can be complicated, can be intimidating. From your 01:42:43:20 - 01:42:49:17 perspective, the state of calibration these days, is it still difficult? Is it something that's 01:42:49:19 - 01:42:55:05 accessible to colorists like me or to an end user? Where does that sit? Because it seems like 01:42:55:16 - 01:43:00:12 more and more people are aware anyway of the benefits of calibration and its need, 01:43:00:23 - 01:43:05:06 but that doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it on themselves. Where is that sit kind of now 01:43:06:09 - 01:43:11:10 with modern tools and modern software? I think calibration has gotten 01:43:13:18 - 01:43:18:15 more difficult and at the same time easier in a lot of ways. It's kind of hard to explain. So 01:43:18:17 - 01:43:25:28 when I started calibrating, it was CRTs. We would even open up the CRT and take the glare screen off. 01:43:27:01 - 01:43:30:02 You had the Fresnel linticular, and you had the glare screen. You take the glare screen off, 01:43:30:02 - 01:43:34:06 so you could have that matte finish. You wouldn't have this huge reflection because 25 years ago, 01:43:34:06 - 01:43:40:07 those were pretty obtrusive glare screens. They're not like some of what we have today with modern 01:43:40:07 - 01:43:47:10 displays. We'd turn the trim pots and we'd maybe do focus on the CRTs and then spend hours doing 01:43:47:10 - 01:43:52:06 convergence. You might have convergence for all these memories. So you have a lot of physical 01:43:52:09 - 01:43:57:19 stuff that happened years ago, but you only had so many adjustments when it came to dialing, 01:43:57:19 - 01:44:02:12 let's say your grayscale, and you might have had cuts and gains. You might have only had choose a 01:44:02:12 - 01:44:08:18 gamma. There was no tracking any EOTF or doing a 1D lookup table. I feel like in those days, 01:44:08:18 - 01:44:13:22 they fought each other a lot more. You change pedestal and then everything else 01:44:14:04 - 01:44:20:07 needs to be. It's a lot more dialing one thing in and then dialing another thing back to compensate. 01:44:21:05 - 01:44:27:19 Absolutely. So you go back and forth and you'd have very few actual controls of the image 01:44:29:04 - 01:44:32:20 compared to today, but you'd have a lot of physical stuff you could do that would really, 01:44:32:20 - 01:44:36:26 really improve the image. That combined into a really great image when you were done calibrating 01:44:36:26 - 01:44:41:14 today, there's almost no physical adjustments on a lot of these flat panels. You have physical 01:44:41:15 - 01:44:45:13 adjustments on projectors, but you don't really have it on these flat panels, but now you have 01:44:45:13 - 01:44:52:19 very complicated image processing paths where you can do 1D lookup tables, 3D lookup tables. You can 01:44:52:19 - 01:44:59:20 do different EOTF tracking. There's just so much you can do. And then you add into the complexity 01:44:59:22 - 01:45:05:15 back then, it was really one calibration you were doing, whether that was for SMPTE-C or BT-709. Now, 01:45:06:02 - 01:45:11:09 you're calibrating for SDR, HDR, and often Dolby Vision. So now you have three calibrations 01:45:11:20 - 01:45:16:23 in that one calibration session and that just makes the complexity that is at another level. Now, 01:45:17:05 - 01:45:23:15 we also didn't have software like CalMAN, 20 years ago, because 20 years ago CalMAN came out and we're 01:45:23:15 - 01:45:29:04 celebrating our 20th anniversary this year. But 22 years ago, we didn't have CalMAN to make things 01:45:29:04 - 01:45:34:02 easy. So now with the software that we have and the software tools that are out there in the 01:45:34:02 - 01:45:40:00 marketplace, it is much easier to quantify a display, understand what the display is doing, 01:45:40:00 - 01:45:46:03 and make those decisions. And they can help guide you through that process to success. So even though 01:45:46:03 - 01:45:51:26 they've gotten more complicated from a display adjustment standpoint and an image processing 01:45:51:26 - 01:45:57:19 standpoint, the software has tried to keep up with helping users achieve their success with that 01:45:57:19 - 01:46:01:24 calibration process. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yeah, I think it's getting easier. I think 01:46:01:25 - 01:46:06:00 we're getting easier and we're going to keep trying to make it easier over time. So another 01:46:06:02 - 01:46:12:12 thing that pops to mind is when it comes to calibration is that I think like anything else, 01:46:12:12 - 01:46:16:29 there seems to be levels to this. I mean, just take a look at some of the hardware. There's 01:46:17:08 - 01:46:23:00 go to the old Apple store and buy a little relatively cheap colorimeter, put it on the monitor, 01:46:23:10 - 01:46:30:06 you're Bob's your uncle, but then there's $10,000, $20,000 displays. How important is the 01:46:30:26 - 01:46:37:29 level or quality of gear, specifically when it comes to meters, and pattern generators, 01:46:37:29 - 01:46:42:29 the hardware aspect of this for achieving success. I think a lot of people, I know 01:46:43:03 - 01:46:48:05 Joey and I talked to a ton of colorists that go, "Yeah, cool. I know calibration is important, 01:46:48:05 - 01:46:54:03 but it's not $20,000 important to me." Are there good results that can be had somewhere in the 01:46:54:03 - 01:46:57:23 middle? Speak to that a little bit because it seems like there's just a lot of variability 01:46:58:07 - 01:47:02:28 in terms of cost and functionality when it comes to some of this gear. 01:47:04:05 - 01:47:10:21 Yeah. So this is the question the geeks get into, which is the how accurate is accurate enough. 01:47:11:25 - 01:47:19:09 And as you go up in equipment capability, when you get into somebody's higher and laboratory grade 01:47:19:20 - 01:47:27:09 colorimeters and spectroradiometers, you get a higher level of precision in those measurements. 01:47:27:18 - 01:47:32:10 You get a higher level of repeatability precision, you get a little more confidence that what you're 01:47:32:10 - 01:47:36:08 measuring is going to be accurate based on maybe it has a two nanometer bandwidth on a 01:47:36:08 - 01:47:43:01 spectro versus a 10 nanometer bandwidth on a different spectro. But a colorimeter and even 01:47:43:01 - 01:47:49:03 a low cost device can be quite accurate if it's profiled, what we call profiled or has a correction 01:47:49:06 - 01:47:55:21 table for that specific display. So we're starting to see more of that happen at Portrait, where we 01:47:55:22 - 01:48:02:23 have our C6 HDR 5000 colorimeter, and we have a lab now that we build profiles for it for our 01:48:02:23 - 01:48:08:25 customers for CalMAN in there. So if you have a profile, you can get a really good result in 01:48:08:25 - 01:48:14:13 comparison to say, a 20, 30, $40,000 spectroradiometer. If you don't have a profile, you're going 01:48:14:13 - 01:48:19:04 to have a little more error in that reading, right? And how much that's going to be is going to be 01:48:19:04 - 01:48:25:19 dependent on how far off the profile you're using is. So you could have a generic WRGB OLED profile, 01:48:25:29 - 01:48:31:06 might be really great on Model A, but Model B has a different type of panel, maybe it's an MLA panel, 01:48:31:21 - 01:48:35:16 and you're going to have a larger error because you're using a profile from one for another. 01:48:36:21 - 01:48:40:29 Once you get that calibration of the probe out of the way, then it starts to become 01:48:40:29 - 01:48:46:16 down what's the capability of the probe itself. So if you're working on a monitor that says, 01:48:46:24 - 01:48:52:12 say has a really great black level, Quantum Dot OLED, WRGB OLED, the JOLED panels we saw 01:48:52:27 - 01:49:00:24 on some of the monitors, like the LG 32EP950, those go pretty darn close to black, if not perfect 01:49:00:24 - 01:49:06:21 black. And if you're trying to calibrate a 1D lookup table, how low can you measure with your 01:49:06:21 - 01:49:12:08 meter and get a reliable reading? And that starts to become really important with these. So if you're 01:49:12:08 - 01:49:17:24 calibrating a monitor that only has gains and bias, maybe you don't care that you can't measure 0.05 01:49:18:00 - 01:49:23:06 nits because you can't adjust it. If you can't adjust it, you might not care. But if you can 01:49:23:06 - 01:49:27:24 adjust it, and then you're using that probe and you just can't measure accurately down there, 01:49:27:24 - 01:49:32:11 well, you're going to increase your error. So I guess to answer the question, I think there's 01:49:32:14 - 01:49:37:03 some really great low cost colorimeters on the market. And if you know the limitations of those 01:49:37:03 - 01:49:41:22 products, if you know what they can do and what you might be fighting against in terms of getting 01:49:41:22 - 01:49:46:12 that ultimate accuracy, they're just fine. And then if you want to go up that next level 01:49:46:22 - 01:49:51:22 to those higher end probes, you just get that confidence. It's that confidence 01:49:51:22 - 01:49:55:12 gain Bram was telling you about, you're going to get that confidence that, hey, I know I've got 01:49:55:12 - 01:50:00:26 a probe, it's lab grade, it's right, I can measure anything with this. I'm going to get the same 01:50:00:26 - 01:50:05:19 result. So I mean, we often think about calibration as like the truth, right? So like that makes a lot 01:50:05:19 - 01:50:09:28 of sense that sort of the more accurate you can be, the more truth that you're seeing. I guess 01:50:10:03 - 01:50:16:14 the question sort of a part B to that is like, is that difference between using the higher end 01:50:16:14 - 01:50:24:12 gear and entry level gear, is it enough to be a noticeable difference to the person looking at 01:50:24:12 - 01:50:30:06 that monitor? Or is this the case of, no, we're getting this prettier, nicer graphs kind of thing, 01:50:30:23 - 01:50:35:20 but visually it doesn't really matter. I think a lot of people debate that whether it's something 01:50:35:20 - 01:50:39:22 they can do. Robbie loves to chase pretty calibration graphs. I do like a pretty graph. 01:50:39:23 - 01:50:47:06 That is for sure. That is for sure. Dave and I have used, I think for as long as we've known each 01:50:47:06 - 01:50:54:06 other is degrees of accuracy. Accuracy is not a binary thing - accurate or inaccurate thing when it comes to 01:50:54:06 - 01:50:58:25 calibration. It's all about degrees of accuracy. And that is a sliding scale with a lot of steps. 01:50:59:18 - 01:51:03:22 No, I agree with that Bram. I think that, you know, for a user like me who's, 01:51:03:22 - 01:51:10:02 who admittedly has a level of OCD that a lot of people don't have, I am, you know, I can't tell 01:51:10:02 - 01:51:14:00 you how many times I've had conversations with Bram, sometimes very late at night being like, 01:51:14:10 - 01:51:19:20 all right, man, well, I'm nervous because 0.7 seems high versus 0.6. I'd really like it to be 0.6, 01:51:19:20 - 01:51:25:02 you know, that kind of thing. And he walks me off and off a ledge. But I think that, you know, 01:51:25:02 - 01:51:29:10 that's, that's a consideration that people have. Like, if I'm going to invest all that much money, 01:51:29:10 - 01:51:35:16 am I really getting something that's tangibly different in terms of what I'm seeing on the 01:51:35:16 - 01:51:41:15 display? It comes down to, again, I think what you're trying to do with it, right? So if I try 01:51:41:15 - 01:51:46:19 to take a lower cost colorimeter and I calibrate an LG OLED, for example, and I've done this, 01:51:46:19 - 01:51:51:17 I've actually done this myself to see the same difference you're talking about. My coming out of 01:51:51:17 - 01:51:57:10 black on the LG OLED will be a little different than if I take, say, my CR100 (Colorimeter) and I do it. And 01:51:57:12 - 01:52:02:01 I can see that if I look at a pattern, like if I look at a shallow gray ramp, or I look at, 01:52:02:18 - 01:52:06:01 you know, maybe something really dark off like Spears and Munsell (HDR Patterns). And I can say, 01:52:06:01 - 01:52:10:00 oh, look, I can see a little difference between these two images. For a consumer, 01:52:11:10 - 01:52:19:05 how dramatic is that? Probably not super dramatic for a colorist and a content creator that's, you 01:52:19:05 - 01:52:24:20 know, nitpicking every little thing. It's probably going to be the end of the world. 01:52:24:22 - 01:52:29:26 Having worked with a lot of colorists, we'll see, oh, the shadow doesn't quite match in this 01:52:29:26 - 01:52:35:13 scene from this monitor versus that monitor. And you go, oh, well, I need to change this. But 01:52:35:23 - 01:52:42:00 we don't see many pro calibrators using some of these lower end probes. And one of those things, 01:52:42:00 - 01:52:46:12 and this is something Bram and I have talked about recently, and I'm tempted to just try and 01:52:47:04 - 01:52:52:16 get this new meter from Minolta that's super fast. And what I was going to say is we don't see a lot 01:52:52:17 - 01:52:58:29 of pros using these probes if they're calibrating as a service like Avical is, because they take a 01:52:58:29 - 01:53:04:03 long time, right? So when you spend more money, you often get a little more sensitivity, a little 01:53:04:03 - 01:53:09:24 more speed, right? So your CR100, your Klein, your Minolta CA-527, they're going to be a lot faster. 01:53:09:24 - 01:53:14:18 So you can achieve the calibration much quicker. And so time starts to become money, but you're 01:53:14:18 - 01:53:19:28 not only getting that speed, you're also getting that increase in precision from these devices. 01:53:20:05 - 01:53:24:20 So it's kind of a win-win if you're doing it as a business to invest in that better gear 01:53:25:01 - 01:53:33:04 and get in, get out faster along with those better results. So, you know, I think, I think, 01:53:33:04 - 01:53:37:04 again, if you're in that pro level, it's worth having that consistency and that accuracy and 01:53:37:18 - 01:53:42:11 then what not from these higher probes. But if you're in the consumer world, yeah, the lower cost 01:53:42:11 - 01:53:46:02 probes that are on the market are doing a great job. And I think the most important thing for me 01:53:46:03 - 01:53:49:22 is making sure one, you have a meter profile for the type of display you want to measure. 01:53:50:08 - 01:53:54:23 And two, making sure it's adequate for the display you want to measure. You wouldn't buy a probe that 01:53:54:23 - 01:53:58:17 only does a thousand nits if you're trying to calibrate a 3000-nit monitor. Yeah, obviously. 01:53:58:17 - 01:54:02:18 If you know you're building a LUT that goes near black, you want to make sure that your probe can 01:54:02:18 - 01:54:08:11 measure near black. And so those considerations start to become less as you go up in the tiers, 01:54:08:11 - 01:54:11:26 because a lot of these higher end probes can measure really wide dynamic ranges and you don't 01:54:11:27 - 01:54:17:29 have to think about it as much. And one last one for you before we wrap up this part of our 01:54:17:29 - 01:54:24:01 discussion with you guys. I think one other question is that, you know, so I buy a display 01:54:24:04 - 01:54:28:02 and it comes in and says, "Oh, hey, it's been calibrated at the factory." So I'm trusting that 01:54:28:02 - 01:54:33:12 to a certain degree. But I think people know that, hey, I live with the display for a year or so. 01:54:33:12 - 01:54:39:01 Like I need to recalibrate it. In your opinion, like what's the recalibration process, 01:54:39:01 - 01:54:44:25 like the necessity of it, right? Like how often should somebody be going, "Hey, I need to, you 01:54:44:25 - 01:54:49:28 know, validate or recalibrate this display." Can you put a number on it? Is it every quarter? Is 01:54:49:28 - 01:54:56:01 it every, you know, six months? Like is there a time demarcation or is it more of just, hey, 01:54:56:01 - 01:54:59:21 that's a personal preference. Do it whenever you feel like doing it to reassure yourself. 01:55:01:05 - 01:55:04:13 This comes down sort of to the customer, right? So we have customers that are 01:55:04:28 - 01:55:10:12 that are all over the place. When you think about a home user, we have some customers that'll call 01:55:10:12 - 01:55:17:28 up a calibrator or recalibrate themselves every six to 12 months. Realistically, at Avical, 01:55:17:28 - 01:55:21:24 I tell my customers about every 18 months if you're a home user, they'll average you about three 01:55:21:24 - 01:55:26:16 hours a day, you know, figure they're putting on around 1500 hours. It's going to have drifted. 01:55:26:16 - 01:55:30:12 It has some aging. Let's bring that back in. When you start getting to content creators, 01:55:31:01 - 01:55:37:01 you start looking at displays that are being used 40, 50, 60 hours a week. And so at that point, 01:55:37:01 - 01:55:41:26 it also comes down to are you using it 40 hours a week in HDR or are you using it 40 hours a week 01:55:41:26 - 01:55:48:16 in SDR? Our general rule of thumb is about every six months for a colorist and about once a year 01:55:48:16 - 01:55:53:23 for an editor. Yeah, the editor's model is going to drift, but if they're not really doing serious 01:55:53:23 - 01:55:59:09 color timing and color grading at the end, then they can let it drift a little longer if they want. 01:55:59:17 - 01:56:02:24 We did an experiment with the studio a few years ago where we were coming out every quarter 01:56:03:17 - 01:56:08:11 for about a year and we were quantifying some broadcast monitors and we were quantifying the 01:56:08:11 - 01:56:13:08 LG OLEDS that were on the wall. What we found was the LGs were drifting in the quarter a little 01:56:13:08 - 01:56:17:26 more than the broadcast monitors, right? The broadcast monitors were staying much more stable over that 01:56:17:26 - 01:56:22:06 amount of time. And what we came up with about every six months is probably pretty good for this 01:56:22:06 - 01:56:27:04 particular studio where they're not really seeing a difference in parity between the broadcast 01:56:27:05 - 01:56:33:19 Mars and the LG until about that six months point. And the goal is, I stress this to all 01:56:33:19 - 01:56:39:29 your listeners, try to get ahead of it, right? The point of recalibration, the point of making sure 01:56:39:29 - 01:56:44:21 you stay dialed in is so that you don't end up with the fire drill. Because once the client 01:56:44:21 - 01:56:48:13 sees something and you start getting notes or you start getting someone in your bay questioning, 01:56:48:13 - 01:56:53:02 then it becomes the fire drill and then it's, oh, we need someone here right away and we need to go. 01:56:53:03 - 01:56:57:21 Oh yeah. And there's loss of, loss of, loss of trust, like all sorts of issues involved. 01:56:58:07 - 01:57:02:12 Yeah. Yeah. So we try to keep up with our customers, or at least at Avical, we try to 01:57:02:12 - 01:57:05:26 keep with our customers. Every six to eight months, we'll send reminders out to our studio 01:57:05:28 - 01:57:10:09 customers and say, Hey, it's been about this long. You know, are you interested in setting 01:57:10:09 - 01:57:15:17 up a recalibration appointment? Some of them do it like clockwork. Some of them wait until 01:57:15:20 - 01:57:19:09 the project's over. Maybe it's another season. We have a lot of TV shows we work on where they'll 01:57:19:10 - 01:57:24:16 do it every season. And they'll just say, you know, it's, it's good for the season. But again, 01:57:24:16 - 01:57:28:23 that six to eight months is usually pretty good for a studio. And I'd say about every 18 months 01:57:28:23 - 01:57:34:18 to two years for consumers. Pretty, pretty decent for most people. Awesome. Well, I think I have 01:57:34:18 - 01:57:38:22 some more questions, but I tell you what, let's hold off on those additional questions for all 01:57:38:22 - 01:57:43:19 three of you for a part two, because we have a lot more to ask you, a lot more to dive in, 01:57:43:29 - 01:57:48:01 but hopefully this gives everybody sort of a high level overview of kind of how these sort of 01:57:48:03 - 01:57:53:03 disparate parts, you know, in these guys sort of roles in the display industry kind of gel 01:57:53:03 - 01:57:57:20 together from display manufacturing to validation and kind of standards to actually, you know, 01:57:57:20 - 01:58:01:04 the technical part of getting to make sure that these displays are as accurate as possible with 01:58:01:04 - 01:58:06:24 calibration. Very cool stuff, guys, but hopefully you'll stick with us for another part where we'll 01:58:06:26 - 01:58:11:07 fire some rapid fire questions off for you. As a reminder for any of our viewers, you can always 01:58:11:07 - 01:58:11:25 fire some rapid fire questions off for you. As a reminder for any of our viewers, you can always 01:58:11:25 - 01:58:16:02 head over to offsetpodcast.com and get some show notes. We'll definitely have some show notes 01:58:16:02 - 01:58:21:04 for these episodes. You can always follow us on social media on Instagram or Facebook. Just search 01:58:21:04 - 01:58:27:12 for The Offset Podcast and you can find us on all major streaming platforms as well as YouTube. Just 01:58:27:12 - 01:58:32:29 search for The Offset Podcast. All right, so stay tuned for a part two. Very big thanks to all three 01:58:32:29 - 01:58:38:14 of our guests for joining us on this episode, but we'll be back in just a little bit for part two 01:58:38:14 - 01:58:44:02 and diving into more depth. So for The Offset Podcast, I'm Robbie Carman. And I'm Joey D'Anna. 01:58:44:03 - 01:58:44:23 Thanks for listening.