WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.075 --> 00:00:06.115 CJ: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:06.125 --> 00:00:06.885 My name is CJ. 00:00:07.052 --> 00:00:07.982 Colin: And I'm Colin. 00:00:07.982 --> 00:00:11.682 And today we are digging into the campfire code base. 00:00:12.202 --> 00:00:15.922 We talked about it a little bit last episode and it's time to roll up our 00:00:15.922 --> 00:00:17.962 sleeves and talk about what we found. 00:00:18.942 --> 00:00:19.132 CJ: Yeah. 00:00:19.132 --> 00:00:23.402 So if you're just catching up, campfire is, the first product 00:00:23.442 --> 00:00:29.862 that the, the team over at 37 signals released as a once product. 00:00:29.862 --> 00:00:32.612 So it's like the one time you paid one time and you get the code. 00:00:32.632 --> 00:00:35.662 And we argued that most people are going to buy it just so they can read the code. 00:00:36.072 --> 00:00:37.152 Colin: We bought it to read the code. 00:00:38.047 --> 00:00:38.297 CJ: did. 00:00:38.457 --> 00:00:38.577 Yeah. 00:00:39.127 --> 00:00:43.987 and yeah, interesting takeaways, but before we get into campfire, what 00:00:43.997 --> 00:00:45.767 is a personal board of directors? 00:00:45.777 --> 00:00:47.407 Like, what is this concept? 00:00:47.892 --> 00:00:50.842 Colin: Yeah, I thought this would be fun to chat briefly about. 00:00:50.892 --> 00:00:53.152 it's something that I've been doing. 00:00:53.202 --> 00:00:56.152 We actually just had one with some friends yesterday. 00:00:56.622 --> 00:01:00.822 it's kind of like a mastermind, but the way we're approaching it is 00:01:01.082 --> 00:01:05.782 being able to have calls that you can like bring questions to a really 00:01:05.782 --> 00:01:09.672 trusted friend group when I'm trying to make this decision in my life. 00:01:09.767 --> 00:01:12.397 Very similar to a company board of directors. 00:01:12.417 --> 00:01:13.307 They've got your back. 00:01:13.307 --> 00:01:17.347 They're not necessarily in the day to day of the business, but they have insights, 00:01:17.357 --> 00:01:19.137 different experiences and perspectives. 00:01:19.137 --> 00:01:21.627 For our first one yesterday, we tried doing like a theme 00:01:22.037 --> 00:01:23.487 around personal finance. 00:01:23.487 --> 00:01:25.907 So like people brought their questions that they had. 00:01:26.282 --> 00:01:28.942 and it was kind of interesting cause there's a bunch of us that work in tech, 00:01:28.942 --> 00:01:32.242 some people who don't, and there were some questions about like, Oh, I've 00:01:32.242 --> 00:01:35.702 just assumed like this was always the best way for me to do health insurance. 00:01:35.702 --> 00:01:38.772 I picked this thing because it has no deductible. 00:01:39.122 --> 00:01:42.582 is there anything I'm missing out on, by not having like a high deductible 00:01:42.582 --> 00:01:44.152 with an HSA, things like that. 00:01:44.152 --> 00:01:47.032 So it was just kind of interesting to have questions and. 00:01:47.682 --> 00:01:52.072 I've taken the same approach with some other friends where having people that 00:01:52.072 --> 00:01:56.822 you can go to when you're applying for a new job or doing something 00:01:56.822 --> 00:02:00.612 different, like let's throw some, some things at the wall and just make 00:02:00.612 --> 00:02:03.752 sure that they're prepared for the actual interviews, things like that. 00:02:04.557 --> 00:02:04.937 CJ: Yeah. 00:02:05.007 --> 00:02:05.477 Nice. 00:02:06.197 --> 00:02:08.067 so was it like a big group? 00:02:08.067 --> 00:02:11.187 Is this like over zoom or in person? 00:02:11.892 --> 00:02:14.282 Colin: Yeah, it was five of us in discord. 00:02:14.362 --> 00:02:17.902 it's five of us that have a group text message thread always going on. 00:02:18.342 --> 00:02:20.832 And there's always those like little questions, Hey, what's everyone using? 00:02:20.832 --> 00:02:23.782 Like, well, actually when mint went away, like they were all using mint. 00:02:23.782 --> 00:02:27.722 And so those, that was kind of what, what spawned this because people 00:02:27.722 --> 00:02:30.812 started getting into text conversations of like, no, you should do this. 00:02:30.862 --> 00:02:35.062 And we had to like, kind of reiterate, like, this is not a group. 00:02:35.312 --> 00:02:37.292 For us to judge what other people are doing. 00:02:37.292 --> 00:02:39.192 It's not to tell people what to do. 00:02:39.512 --> 00:02:41.422 It's to give data. 00:02:41.522 --> 00:02:42.992 And this is very similar. 00:02:42.992 --> 00:02:45.872 Like if you ever go through an accelerator or through any sort of 00:02:45.882 --> 00:02:50.182 mentor network, you're going to get a bunch of data from a bunch of mentors. 00:02:50.497 --> 00:02:53.117 And you have to synthesize it and make your own decisions. 00:02:53.117 --> 00:02:55.537 So it's not meant to be financial advice. 00:02:55.557 --> 00:02:59.297 This is the one true way or, Oh, what you're doing is dumb. 00:02:59.297 --> 00:03:02.737 Cause it kind of happened and I'm not going to name names, but like 00:03:03.157 --> 00:03:06.467 I've been slowly investing in Rivian. 00:03:06.612 --> 00:03:09.952 And like there was some, there's, it's a very hot contentious thing 00:03:10.032 --> 00:03:13.672 for, for, for people where they don't believe that I should be doing that. 00:03:13.672 --> 00:03:17.482 And it's like, no, nothing that you are going to tell me in a text 00:03:17.482 --> 00:03:20.502 message is going to like, tell me to go take my money out of Rivian. 00:03:20.512 --> 00:03:21.892 Like, I'm not going to change that decision. 00:03:21.892 --> 00:03:22.602 It's been made. 00:03:23.107 --> 00:03:24.387 I'm holding it for the long term. 00:03:24.767 --> 00:03:29.467 You can tell me why you don't believe in Rivian and why you aren't going to do it, 00:03:29.467 --> 00:03:33.747 but I, we're not here to like judge each other's, things we can try to direct, 00:03:33.767 --> 00:03:38.147 but ideally we shouldn't be directing unless there's a question like, kind of 00:03:38.147 --> 00:03:39.987 asking for consent to provide feedback? 00:03:39.987 --> 00:03:42.627 Like, do you want feedback on a portfolio? 00:03:42.627 --> 00:03:46.537 Do you want feedback on how much or how little you're saving? 00:03:46.547 --> 00:03:47.277 Things like that. 00:03:48.397 --> 00:03:48.957 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:49.037 --> 00:03:49.497 Okay. 00:03:49.547 --> 00:03:50.857 That sounds really cool. 00:03:50.877 --> 00:03:51.357 I. 00:03:51.537 --> 00:03:56.387 and reminded of the adage that like, you are the sum of your five closest friends. 00:03:56.417 --> 00:04:02.687 And so I think the people who I admire the most and who've been the most 00:04:02.687 --> 00:04:05.977 successful in their life, they all seem to have these like pockets of 00:04:06.377 --> 00:04:11.677 friends that are also very successful and, and ambitious and whatever. 00:04:11.677 --> 00:04:13.737 This sounds, really valuable to have. 00:04:13.757 --> 00:04:16.407 And also, I don't know how to cultivate it. 00:04:16.457 --> 00:04:22.697 I have friends that I have made through just like happenstance, but 00:04:22.697 --> 00:04:26.247 then figuring out how to get the right people in the right rooms to talk 00:04:26.257 --> 00:04:29.667 about the right stuff so that everyone can grow and learn from it is tricky. 00:04:30.107 --> 00:04:35.337 But yeah, I, it's definitely a really powerful experience when you have a couple 00:04:35.337 --> 00:04:39.357 of friends who are in similar but somewhat different situations and they're all 00:04:39.357 --> 00:04:43.667 learning different things about whatever it is, money or parenting or whatever. 00:04:43.667 --> 00:04:47.537 And being able to share, what worked for you or what didn't work for you. 00:04:47.537 --> 00:04:51.457 And also to get the advice from other people is like super powerful. 00:04:51.507 --> 00:04:54.587 Yeah, I don't know if it was, if this is like a Tony Robbins thing or something, 00:04:54.587 --> 00:04:58.857 but some book somewhere has something similar that's like personal board of 00:04:58.857 --> 00:05:03.857 directors, but it's actually just like fake people that you keep in your mind. 00:05:03.887 --> 00:05:06.827 Like this board of directors, like, Oh, I'm going to ask, 00:05:06.827 --> 00:05:08.567 George Washington a question. 00:05:08.567 --> 00:05:13.177 And I'm going to ask, you kind of like take this to, This group of people to 00:05:13.997 --> 00:05:18.357 kind of give yourself a little bit of different perspective, I guess, which is 00:05:18.357 --> 00:05:21.367 really what your friends are providing to is just like another set of eyes. 00:05:21.377 --> 00:05:25.597 And especially when it comes to jobs, like if you're changing jobs, just pinging 00:05:25.677 --> 00:05:28.107 people who know you really well and being like, what do you think about this? 00:05:28.157 --> 00:05:28.497 Colin: Yeah. 00:05:28.507 --> 00:05:31.187 I mean, it helps with things like, imposter syndrome too. 00:05:31.187 --> 00:05:33.487 We kind of formed this ad hoc board of directors. 00:05:34.157 --> 00:05:35.747 They spent like a month. 00:05:36.282 --> 00:05:40.862 negotiating a non profit job that was like, they were 00:05:40.862 --> 00:05:43.872 like, I've never negotiated so hard to make so little money. 00:05:44.187 --> 00:05:44.427 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:44.427 --> 00:05:45.093 Mm hmm. 00:05:45.152 --> 00:05:47.492 Colin: And I was like, okay, well, there's a red flag, like obviously 00:05:47.492 --> 00:05:49.812 a non profit, you're not going to be able to make as much money. 00:05:49.812 --> 00:05:55.252 But,, it was a really sad, like two and a half weeks of, of PTO and sick 00:05:55.252 --> 00:05:56.892 leave combined or something like that. 00:05:56.892 --> 00:06:00.902 And it was like, you're going to be fighting for every little day off, 00:06:00.942 --> 00:06:06.542 every little amount of work life balance to make less money than 00:06:06.542 --> 00:06:07.712 you were making in your last job. 00:06:08.042 --> 00:06:08.512 CJ: hmm. 00:06:08.722 --> 00:06:10.812 Colin: Do you really want to do this or do you want to use 00:06:10.812 --> 00:06:11.912 your board to help you find? 00:06:12.417 --> 00:06:14.087 Some other things to apply for. 00:06:14.087 --> 00:06:17.917 and for them, they were like, well, no, this feels like this is the job for me, 00:06:17.917 --> 00:06:21.897 but also they can't pay and it's like, that's a job mismatch, it's not on you. 00:06:21.917 --> 00:06:23.287 That's, that's the job. 00:06:23.377 --> 00:06:25.987 Like it might be a great job for somebody else. 00:06:27.872 --> 00:06:28.482 CJ: Very cool. 00:06:28.502 --> 00:06:29.932 I, I, yeah, I think it's a great idea. 00:06:30.332 --> 00:06:32.852 maybe there's, that's like a, also like a product idea. 00:06:32.902 --> 00:06:37.862 People can try to find other people, other like minded people to create 00:06:37.872 --> 00:06:39.462 their own board of directors. 00:06:40.127 --> 00:06:40.487 Colin: Yeah. 00:06:41.152 --> 00:06:44.542 CJ: I guess that's what these, little groups are, like mega maker and whatever. 00:06:44.542 --> 00:06:46.992 There's groups you can join too that will set up masterminds for you. 00:06:46.992 --> 00:06:48.442 But I guess it's a little bit different. 00:06:48.932 --> 00:06:49.252 Colin: Yeah. 00:06:49.252 --> 00:06:50.972 The mastermind format can work. 00:06:50.972 --> 00:06:53.382 I think it tends to be more like I'm working on my business. 00:06:53.382 --> 00:06:54.122 What should I do? 00:06:54.132 --> 00:06:55.312 But, this is for yourself. 00:06:55.822 --> 00:06:56.782 I'm working on myself. 00:06:56.782 --> 00:06:59.122 What should, what questions do you have? 00:06:59.132 --> 00:06:59.582 So 00:06:59.932 --> 00:07:00.422 CJ: Very cool. 00:07:01.102 --> 00:07:05.552 I'm sort of becoming a meme, a New England meme, one day after being in New England, 00:07:05.572 --> 00:07:09.472 broken ankle from the freezing snow, two years after being in New England, 00:07:09.542 --> 00:07:12.572 I am going to try and make maple syrup. 00:07:13.032 --> 00:07:15.132 So I'm going to tap my trees. 00:07:15.192 --> 00:07:15.712 Yeah. 00:07:15.782 --> 00:07:20.372 And, set up a little evaporator outside and try to make some maple syrup. 00:07:20.372 --> 00:07:22.472 So we'll see how it goes. 00:07:23.012 --> 00:07:28.722 apparently it's a, as a type of hobby that can be very obsessive. 00:07:28.722 --> 00:07:31.292 And like, once you get into it, you want to tap every tree in your whole 00:07:31.292 --> 00:07:35.252 yard, collect all the SAP, but, Yeah, we're going to start small, three or 00:07:35.252 --> 00:07:40.762 so trees and see if we can get a single waffles worth of pancake syrup or like 00:07:40.762 --> 00:07:42.962 a single, yeah, single serving of syrup. 00:07:43.022 --> 00:07:45.822 And if so, it'll be a success. 00:07:45.902 --> 00:07:49.802 So we'll have to, we'll have to share some updates as we go, but 00:07:50.032 --> 00:07:51.532 Colin: Look at you homesteading. 00:07:53.022 --> 00:07:53.872 CJ: it's just, I don't know. 00:07:53.872 --> 00:07:58.232 It seems like such a fun crafty, thing to do. 00:07:58.312 --> 00:07:58.702 Colin: Yeah. 00:07:58.902 --> 00:08:01.642 Well, and speaking of that, there's been a lot of memes about 00:08:01.772 --> 00:08:06.222 homesteading and little house on the prairie, with an AT& T outage. 00:08:06.222 --> 00:08:08.962 Do you know like what the cause is? 00:08:08.962 --> 00:08:11.462 Do we have, are we getting, are we going to get a postmortem? 00:08:11.472 --> 00:08:12.072 Do you think, 00:08:12.562 --> 00:08:13.772 CJ: I hope so. 00:08:14.687 --> 00:08:17.467 It's, it's been going in and out all day today. 00:08:17.727 --> 00:08:21.447 We live about an hour North of Boston and all of the news that I've been 00:08:21.447 --> 00:08:24.967 reading, it's like, Oh, it's a huge outage all across the United States. 00:08:24.977 --> 00:08:29.147 But, yeah, I don't know if it's just focused on, yeah. 00:08:29.147 --> 00:08:30.717 New England or what the deal is. 00:08:31.477 --> 00:08:36.817 Yeah, it says that it hit AT& T customers nationwide and it definitely hit us. 00:08:36.817 --> 00:08:38.857 So we, we've been in and out of service all day. 00:08:39.037 --> 00:08:41.617 So definitely feels like 00:08:41.672 --> 00:08:41.972 Colin: is good. 00:08:42.487 --> 00:08:43.367 CJ: wifi is good. 00:08:43.377 --> 00:08:43.727 Yeah. 00:08:43.727 --> 00:08:49.137 So it was funny, Nicole, she was out running some errands and she had to 00:08:49.147 --> 00:08:53.067 go into a Barnes and Noble, connect to the wifi and then send a text. 00:08:53.577 --> 00:08:57.487 And, it's like, I don't know if it's freeing or if it's terrifying to 00:08:57.487 --> 00:09:00.427 know that we've become so dependent on being able to just talk to each 00:09:00.427 --> 00:09:02.337 other at any point at any like, if 00:09:02.662 --> 00:09:04.052 Colin: Or taking it for granted, 00:09:04.187 --> 00:09:05.347 CJ: totally, totally. 00:09:05.387 --> 00:09:05.777 Yeah. 00:09:06.337 --> 00:09:07.567 So I don't know. 00:09:07.567 --> 00:09:10.637 Maybe it's a good test to see if we are able to survive 00:09:10.637 --> 00:09:12.627 without phones or something, 00:09:12.732 --> 00:09:15.692 Colin: You used to have to figure out where you're going, 00:09:15.852 --> 00:09:18.262 print out a map before you left, 00:09:19.147 --> 00:09:20.477 CJ: yeah, it's wild. 00:09:21.052 --> 00:09:22.322 Colin: rip MapQuest. 00:09:22.527 --> 00:09:26.267 CJ: I wonder if you could even find physical maps of like towns other 00:09:26.267 --> 00:09:27.557 than, I guess if you go like to 00:09:27.612 --> 00:09:28.082 Colin: Oh yeah, you 00:09:28.157 --> 00:09:28.927 CJ: or something, 00:09:29.352 --> 00:09:29.652 Colin: Yeah. 00:09:30.302 --> 00:09:31.222 Or Barnes Noble. 00:09:31.837 --> 00:09:32.277 CJ: Okay. 00:09:32.327 --> 00:09:32.697 Okay. 00:09:32.727 --> 00:09:33.127 Okay. 00:09:33.577 --> 00:09:33.887 True. 00:09:33.887 --> 00:09:34.077 Yeah. 00:09:34.077 --> 00:09:34.747 That's a, that's a great 00:09:34.812 --> 00:09:37.212 Colin: Then you have to know if you know how to read a map. 00:09:37.497 --> 00:09:40.877 I have a Nevada map that I keep in my truck because we go in the 00:09:40.887 --> 00:09:42.207 back country and stuff a lot. 00:09:42.257 --> 00:09:45.627 We never had to use it, but if your phone is completely dead and you're somewhere 00:09:46.247 --> 00:09:47.807 you want to know where you're at. 00:09:48.227 --> 00:09:48.617 CJ: Yeah. 00:09:49.027 --> 00:09:51.197 When you're out in the back country, do you bring like a 00:09:51.197 --> 00:09:53.617 solar panel with you or, Oh, you 00:09:53.722 --> 00:09:57.142 Colin: Yeah, I've got solar panels and, obviously the truck can charge it too, 00:09:57.142 --> 00:10:01.472 as long as it has gas, but, yeah, and we can talk about it on another show, 00:10:01.472 --> 00:10:04.922 but I'm looking at getting one of those like Garmin inReach devices, it's like 00:10:04.922 --> 00:10:10.732 a satellite thing too, just in case, because Nevada is big and, not a lot of 00:10:10.732 --> 00:10:15.392 service in a lot of places, so AT& T's constantly having an adage out there. 00:10:16.540 --> 00:10:17.070 CJ: All right. 00:10:17.170 --> 00:10:22.793 Why don't we jump in and maybe share just initial first impressions of the campfire 00:10:22.793 --> 00:10:28.866 code base and then we can go through some specific stuff, like specific takeaways. 00:10:29.426 --> 00:10:31.856 What stood out to you when you got into this? 00:10:32.871 --> 00:10:37.531 Colin: I think very similarly to you, I was surprised at how simple the code was. 00:10:38.956 --> 00:10:40.336 I will caveat this with that. 00:10:40.336 --> 00:10:41.826 I am not running the code. 00:10:41.896 --> 00:10:44.736 Like I haven't actually used the app. 00:10:45.051 --> 00:10:46.421 we're looking purely at the code. 00:10:47.011 --> 00:10:50.421 I am going to get it stood up on a server so I can play around with it a little 00:10:50.421 --> 00:10:54.881 bit, cause I'm curious to see like how the bots and web hooks and stuff work. 00:10:55.461 --> 00:11:00.011 but just looking at the code, it does look like they added that after the launch. 00:11:00.141 --> 00:11:03.201 it's unclear how you get updates to that. 00:11:03.756 --> 00:11:07.626 When those happen, but my version that I downloaded had already had it. 00:11:08.266 --> 00:11:09.716 so yeah, just very simple. 00:11:09.776 --> 00:11:13.346 I perused the gem file and the routes just to get a shape of things. 00:11:13.896 --> 00:11:16.796 And, yeah, it looks like it would be easy to maintain. 00:11:17.526 --> 00:11:22.596 I don't know if it would tick all the boxes of the actual product again, 00:11:22.596 --> 00:11:25.956 I want to get it hosted and try it out and, and we can chat in it and 00:11:25.956 --> 00:11:27.636 see how, how we like it as a product. 00:11:27.786 --> 00:11:28.056 But, 00:11:28.166 --> 00:11:31.556 It's one of the cleaner, simpler apps that I've seen. 00:11:31.626 --> 00:11:32.096 What do you think 00:11:32.731 --> 00:11:33.451 CJ: Yeah, same. 00:11:33.461 --> 00:11:35.691 every file that I open, I look at the file and I'm like, 00:11:35.691 --> 00:11:37.001 wow, this is insanely simple. 00:11:37.371 --> 00:11:42.801 And it reminds me a lot of those Sandy Metz talks, from many years ago where 00:11:43.331 --> 00:11:46.711 she was like, Oh, your controller methods should be no more than. 00:11:47.626 --> 00:11:48.746 Five lines or whatever. 00:11:48.746 --> 00:11:52.876 I can't even remember like single instance variable three or five 00:11:52.876 --> 00:11:53.846 lines or something like that. 00:11:53.856 --> 00:11:58.496 And I know that a lot of our controller actions at work have 00:11:58.496 --> 00:11:59.756 just become really massive. 00:11:59.866 --> 00:12:03.826 because we do a bunch of stuff like setting up breadcrumbs and 00:12:04.356 --> 00:12:07.386 doing other like weird things inside of the controllers. 00:12:07.406 --> 00:12:10.746 And so reading these controller actions and just like every class in 00:12:10.746 --> 00:12:13.016 here, it's just so concise and clean. 00:12:13.016 --> 00:12:17.986 And it's clear to me that it, it is an app written using the framework 00:12:18.006 --> 00:12:22.206 by people who are experts with the framework, like there's things in here 00:12:22.206 --> 00:12:26.756 where, you and I have probably solved it in a different way with like more 00:12:26.786 --> 00:12:31.036 primitive tools that exist either in Ruby or in the framework that we know about. 00:12:31.196 --> 00:12:33.446 but yeah, this, I don't know. 00:12:33.746 --> 00:12:35.496 It's very fun to, to read through. 00:12:35.556 --> 00:12:35.906 So 00:12:37.441 --> 00:12:43.091 Colin: now the devil's advocate is, is it simple because it doesn't do a lot, right? 00:12:43.461 --> 00:12:45.011 That is the other piece of this. 00:12:45.011 --> 00:12:49.071 Like I, that's why I'm curious to use it. 00:12:49.511 --> 00:12:50.461 I do like that. 00:12:50.461 --> 00:12:53.641 They don't reach for gems just for gems sake. 00:12:53.711 --> 00:12:58.131 I think that's a habit that newer devs have, like there's no device. 00:12:58.791 --> 00:13:03.661 devise by itself adds so much complexity to the code base. 00:13:03.661 --> 00:13:06.761 You've got views and controllers and stuff that you have to like 00:13:06.761 --> 00:13:08.481 generate and all that kind of stuff. 00:13:08.591 --> 00:13:12.531 but yeah, I'd be curious to see once we actually use it, does it feel finished 00:13:12.531 --> 00:13:17.691 and to their point, like they tweeted, blogged about it, this and we'll link 00:13:17.691 --> 00:13:22.631 to it, but he, he wants to deliver finished quote unquote software, not 00:13:22.631 --> 00:13:28.271 just, This endless treadmill of feature creep and,, how do you stay alive as a 00:13:28.271 --> 00:13:32.081 SaaS business to just keep churning out features to keep justifying charging 00:13:32.081 --> 00:13:36.071 people, whereas the value of the thing should be the thing that you're paying 00:13:36.071 --> 00:13:38.551 for, not what it's going to have and. 00:13:38.981 --> 00:13:39.941 Five years from now. 00:13:40.696 --> 00:13:47.366 CJ: I, yeah, I think as, especially as like a industry, we seem to have gotten 00:13:47.376 --> 00:13:52.266 used to being able to constantly give feedback and ask for more features. 00:13:52.816 --> 00:13:56.516 And I don't know like where that line ends, I would, I mean, we'll 00:13:56.516 --> 00:13:59.526 talk about it in a future episode more about, buckets that we've been 00:13:59.526 --> 00:14:04.606 building, but it's, it has been on my mind to like, try to keep the scope. 00:14:05.276 --> 00:14:10.146 As small as possible and be like, okay, this is literally just, balances 00:14:10.236 --> 00:14:11.666 and transactions and that's it. 00:14:11.696 --> 00:14:16.126 Like not budgeting or like not other features in order to keep the scope 00:14:16.126 --> 00:14:17.776 as small and tight as possible. 00:14:18.236 --> 00:14:22.726 but I know inevitably as soon as it gets into user's hands, they'll want, Oh, can 00:14:22.726 --> 00:14:25.396 I export this to, QuickBooks or something? 00:14:25.396 --> 00:14:26.566 You're like, Oh, come on. 00:14:26.626 --> 00:14:26.976 Like, 00:14:27.601 --> 00:14:28.111 Colin: Right. 00:14:28.596 --> 00:14:29.116 CJ: yeah, 00:14:29.211 --> 00:14:29.421 Colin: Yeah. 00:14:29.421 --> 00:14:32.081 I see that question a lot with a co writing software. 00:14:32.081 --> 00:14:35.361 They're like, does anyone integrate with QuickBooks desktop? 00:14:35.381 --> 00:14:39.781 And everyone's like, you definitely know, just, just, just go to QuickBooks 00:14:39.791 --> 00:14:42.591 online and you'll find a bunch of things that integrate with it. 00:14:43.051 --> 00:14:48.081 That's one of the tweets I keep seeing is, Hey, do you have integrations like Slack? 00:14:48.131 --> 00:14:53.911 A lot of people rely on these integrations and their response is to use bots, 00:14:53.941 --> 00:14:58.361 which if you're good at Zapier, you could go set up a bunch of webhooks 00:14:58.371 --> 00:15:00.716 and probably get 90 integrations. 00:15:00.866 --> 00:15:02.486 9 percent of the way there. 00:15:02.726 --> 00:15:05.526 You're just going to also be paying for Zapier at that point. 00:15:05.976 --> 00:15:08.706 so you can have a sauna tickets coming in. 00:15:09.196 --> 00:15:12.356 I didn't see anything, but if there's going to be on anything 00:15:12.356 --> 00:15:16.536 on like the base camp side, that push can push into your campfire. 00:15:16.536 --> 00:15:20.406 Cause that would be like a natural integration for them to build on there 00:15:20.406 --> 00:15:22.416 and to just kind of push into campfire. 00:15:23.136 --> 00:15:23.666 CJ: right. 00:15:24.541 --> 00:15:27.911 The other thing that really struck me was that a lot of times when I'm 00:15:27.911 --> 00:15:35.191 using just vanilla Rails, I, for, forever have just generated controllers 00:15:35.251 --> 00:15:39.611 and they come with a helper and the helper usually just stays empty. 00:15:40.031 --> 00:15:45.091 And this app has lots of helpers and they almost all have something in common. 00:15:45.401 --> 00:15:47.181 Interesting or useful inside of it. 00:15:47.231 --> 00:15:51.101 And then the views are pretty slick, pretty concise also. 00:15:51.171 --> 00:15:54.961 And they often lean pretty heavily on the helpers, which. 00:15:55.301 --> 00:15:58.751 Again, playing devil's advocate, I don't know if I like that because now 00:15:58.751 --> 00:16:02.231 you're kind of like having to jump around between even more places to 00:16:02.271 --> 00:16:03.831 understand what the view is doing. 00:16:04.311 --> 00:16:09.121 And so in the helper, it might be like saying, tag dot div, whatever. 00:16:09.181 --> 00:16:10.691 And it's like, okay, if you just 00:16:10.711 --> 00:16:11.721 Colin: in a different folder. 00:16:11.781 --> 00:16:12.411 CJ: Exactly. 00:16:12.591 --> 00:16:14.581 Different folder, different file, different whatever. 00:16:14.591 --> 00:16:14.911 Yes. 00:16:14.911 --> 00:16:15.471 It's in Ruby. 00:16:15.471 --> 00:16:16.091 That's awesome. 00:16:16.091 --> 00:16:20.581 maybe I'm not understanding how to use helpers or maybe some of these 00:16:20.981 --> 00:16:24.381 probably make great sense, but others I'm like, ah, man, I don't know. 00:16:24.481 --> 00:16:24.721 Colin: Yeah. 00:16:24.721 --> 00:16:27.181 Do you almost feel like when you open a controller that you 00:16:27.181 --> 00:16:33.021 want the helper to open up like automatically so that you have context? 00:16:33.481 --> 00:16:35.741 CJ: And, or the view too, right? 00:16:35.751 --> 00:16:40.071 Like if, if, yeah, a good example here might be looking at like 00:16:40.081 --> 00:16:42.281 the messages helper, I think. 00:16:42.291 --> 00:16:42.571 Yeah. 00:16:42.571 --> 00:16:46.061 So the messages helper has a bunch of methods inside of it 00:16:46.641 --> 00:16:48.531 where it's like, Oh, tag dot div. 00:16:48.561 --> 00:16:50.761 And then it adds just a whole bunch of data attributes and 00:16:50.771 --> 00:16:52.821 actions and things like that. 00:16:52.861 --> 00:16:55.531 And then if you look at the messages views, the messages views 00:16:55.531 --> 00:16:57.871 look like deceptively concise. 00:16:57.871 --> 00:16:58.111 Thanks. 00:16:58.211 --> 00:17:01.031 But, it's because there's a whole bunch going on in the helpers where 00:17:01.031 --> 00:17:03.971 it's building out a bunch of HTML. 00:17:04.141 --> 00:17:06.511 That's just in the helper instead of being in the view. 00:17:06.711 --> 00:17:10.291 I don't know, like I haven't gone deep enough to know, Oh, that's because 00:17:10.291 --> 00:17:14.981 this is reused in a bunch of different places, but it seems to me that it's 00:17:14.981 --> 00:17:20.121 kind of a mixture of like helper flavored things that I would typically put 00:17:20.121 --> 00:17:25.591 in a helper, like generating special URLs for QR codes and things like that 00:17:25.601 --> 00:17:32.101 versus, building out entire like big blocks of HTML inside of the helper. 00:17:32.201 --> 00:17:36.911 That might also be a symptom or like a side effect of us using view 00:17:36.911 --> 00:17:40.351 component to sometimes like, we use view component, which I think is 00:17:40.351 --> 00:17:43.691 achieving the same thing that a lot of these helpers might be trying to do. 00:17:44.326 --> 00:17:48.616 Where, yeah, the view component itself wraps up a little bit of HTML 00:17:48.616 --> 00:17:50.925 and a reusable bits of the view 00:17:50.975 --> 00:17:54.455 Colin: I still want to dig a little bit into the turbo stuff. 00:17:54.465 --> 00:17:57.355 Cause that's not something I've done myself yet. 00:17:57.365 --> 00:18:01.605 I've not had a need to do it cause we've always had react front ends. 00:18:02.575 --> 00:18:06.715 but it's nice to see all these JavaScript like stimulus controllers 00:18:08.265 --> 00:18:09.925 that we can use as examples. 00:18:09.935 --> 00:18:11.405 A lot of hotwire stuff. 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:13.480 CJ: yeah, totally. 00:18:15.785 --> 00:18:19.315 Colin: Is there anything that sticks out to you in the gem file specifically? 00:18:20.040 --> 00:18:21.770 CJ: There's a couple of gems in here I've never heard of. 00:18:21.780 --> 00:18:24.780 I'm like, Oh, what, what the heck is platform agent? 00:18:24.890 --> 00:18:26.840 Or geared pagination. 00:18:26.970 --> 00:18:29.060 I mean, these are probably just like alternatives maybe 00:18:29.060 --> 00:18:32.080 to pagey or will paginate. 00:18:32.190 --> 00:18:36.330 but yeah, it definitely sparked my interest to go look at these. 00:18:36.800 --> 00:18:40.960 and then I know, DHH did this prop shaft thing. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.720 I think that was like one of the announcements recently. 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.310 not surprising to see that in there or import rails. 00:18:46.890 --> 00:18:49.380 But yeah, like rails auto link. 00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:50.090 What is that? 00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:51.160 I'm not sure. 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.280 Geared pagination platform agent. 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:58.370 It's like they seem to have generic names and it's unclear like what they do. 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:05.660 Colin: it seems like most of them are either from Basecamp or Tenderlove. 00:19:06.610 --> 00:19:07.000 CJ: Got it. 00:19:07.050 --> 00:19:07.500 Okay. 00:19:07.620 --> 00:19:08.200 Interesting. 00:19:09.060 --> 00:19:12.380 Colin: or from the Rails, like, org. 00:19:12.870 --> 00:19:15.670 So like, yeah, Credus is from Rails. 00:19:17.580 --> 00:19:21.120 But then you've got, Faker, Breakman. 00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:22.130 CJ: Yep. 00:19:23.260 --> 00:19:23.640 Those 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:27.920 Colin: not a crazy long gem file, which I think it's more of that simplicity. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.890 And they kind of comment out, the different groupings of things. 00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:35.420 I think if you do buy the code and take a look at it, I think reading the 00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:37.330 comments is particularly interesting. 00:19:37.330 --> 00:19:39.860 There's not a lot of comments in the code, but there's a 00:19:39.860 --> 00:19:41.310 lot of comments in the confiG. 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:46.160 whoever worked on this, DHH and whoever else sharing their opinions 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.640 about databases and config. 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.360 And I think that config folder is probably one of the more 00:19:51.370 --> 00:19:53.840 daunting places for, developers. 00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:57.110 There's just like a lot of true false flags that you're like, do 00:19:57.110 --> 00:19:58.570 we know what this is really doing? 00:19:58.620 --> 00:19:59.130 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:05.080 There's also like a couple of interesting directories to like the 00:20:05.080 --> 00:20:10.090 open graph one, which seems to be, I imagine that's like what you paste 00:20:10.090 --> 00:20:12.500 a link to Twitter or something. 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.260 into the chat and then it will like unfurl the URL and show you 00:20:16.300 --> 00:20:17.590 kind of like the preview of it. 00:20:18.020 --> 00:20:22.450 So there's some cool stuff going on in, in those types of, directories. 00:20:23.030 --> 00:20:24.250 what else is going on here? 00:20:25.030 --> 00:20:29.340 you and I were talking before the show about how it uses SQLite. 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:34.380 And there seems to be a lot of hype right now around using SQLite. 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:40.880 It seems like SQLite's gotten a lot of new features recently that bring it on par 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.197 with a lot of other, like more, I don't know, like bigger, What we would probably 00:20:46.197 --> 00:20:52.387 consider like production, database management systems like Postgres and MySQL 00:20:52.397 --> 00:20:53.647 that have been around a little bit longer. 00:20:53.647 --> 00:20:57.167 Maybe, I say that, but I don't actually know if SQL has been around longer. 00:20:57.167 --> 00:20:59.607 I just know that it was missing features like JSON. 00:21:00.187 --> 00:21:05.267 Columns and things like that, that I think many of which have been recently updated. 00:21:05.367 --> 00:21:09.427 Colin: Yeah, I think the comment on SQLite specifically was 00:21:09.447 --> 00:21:11.387 that it's actually good, right? 00:21:11.437 --> 00:21:12.367 and that it can be used. 00:21:12.417 --> 00:21:13.847 I like how portable it is. 00:21:13.887 --> 00:21:17.847 I think when we talked about, whether or not people actually want to host this or 00:21:17.847 --> 00:21:25.237 not, that's where it feels Very fragile to me to have SQLite in my opinion. 00:21:25.237 --> 00:21:28.287 I mean, you can obviously do a backup strategy on that. 00:21:28.347 --> 00:21:30.087 You can do a nightly backup or something. 00:21:30.407 --> 00:21:32.227 I'm assuming you have to do that on your own. 00:21:32.227 --> 00:21:35.247 I'm not assuming that there's like a built in script for that. 00:21:35.257 --> 00:21:35.847 There could be. 00:21:36.257 --> 00:21:37.567 I haven't seen that yet. 00:21:37.687 --> 00:21:38.027 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:38.742 --> 00:21:39.672 Colin: There is a backup. 00:21:40.042 --> 00:21:43.282 So yeah, under script admin prepare backup. 00:21:43.282 --> 00:21:46.607 It looks like there's probably a nightly backup. 00:21:46.857 --> 00:21:48.387 Or you can probably configure it. 00:21:49.217 --> 00:21:53.177 so you could easily ship that off to an S3 bucket or something, and then you have 00:21:53.587 --> 00:21:55.537 nightly backups in case something happens. 00:21:56.457 --> 00:21:56.987 CJ: Very cool. 00:21:58.607 --> 00:21:58.867 Yeah. 00:21:58.867 --> 00:22:01.837 I think being able to just save the money will be cool. 00:22:01.857 --> 00:22:04.417 I know for a long time when people were deploying to Heroku and you've 00:22:04.417 --> 00:22:08.907 got these like ephemeral sort of, servers that, wipe everything out. 00:22:08.907 --> 00:22:09.397 That's not. 00:22:09.667 --> 00:22:13.297 committed to get, and then you end up, removing your database 00:22:13.297 --> 00:22:14.197 or whatever in production. 00:22:14.717 --> 00:22:17.317 so yeah, we've all started depending on like, Oh, having a 00:22:17.317 --> 00:22:19.527 separate Postgres box or whatever. 00:22:19.957 --> 00:22:22.857 And I would love to not pay the 10 bucks a month or whatever, 00:22:22.857 --> 00:22:24.187 for like little hobby things. 00:22:24.187 --> 00:22:28.137 And so if we could figure out a strategy to host it with SQLite 00:22:28.277 --> 00:22:30.307 on render, might be worth, 00:22:30.327 --> 00:22:33.437 Colin: was going to say, how does SQLite work on Heroku? 00:22:33.517 --> 00:22:37.347 If, if, those files get wiped, you'd have, usually you'd have to mount an 00:22:37.357 --> 00:22:41.047 S3 bucket or some sort of storage. 00:22:41.657 --> 00:22:42.687 CJ: I don't think it does. 00:22:42.757 --> 00:22:46.737 Like, I think like SQLite, you just like, can't use it on Heroku or you 00:22:46.737 --> 00:22:50.467 couldn't at least when I, when I was looking into it a long time ago, but, 00:22:51.097 --> 00:22:52.587 Colin: November 22, 22. 00:22:52.587 --> 00:22:54.317 It looks like there is. 00:22:55.307 --> 00:22:56.227 CJ: is there a new, new 00:22:56.422 --> 00:22:59.232 Colin: is SQLite a bad fit for running on Heroku? 00:22:59.757 --> 00:23:00.157 CJ: Yeah. 00:23:01.032 --> 00:23:03.842 Colin: yeah, they say use Rails in there, how to use SQLite. 00:23:04.162 --> 00:23:05.452 Or they say use Postgres. 00:23:05.897 --> 00:23:06.107 CJ: Yeah. 00:23:06.107 --> 00:23:07.047 Use Postgres. 00:23:07.087 --> 00:23:07.507 Yeah. 00:23:08.352 --> 00:23:08.752 Colin: Smart. 00:23:09.462 --> 00:23:14.222 I mean, for development it is, it is great to just spin it up and it's there. 00:23:14.787 --> 00:23:17.457 CJ: Yeah, it's great too for shipping. 00:23:18.467 --> 00:23:20.857 software that is going to be like desktop or whatever, like run 00:23:20.857 --> 00:23:23.217 somewhere else, like you give someone something and then they run it. 00:23:23.257 --> 00:23:28.577 We, we used SQLite a lot when I worked, at this robotics company where we 00:23:28.577 --> 00:23:32.197 were selling robots with like an IDE. 00:23:33.082 --> 00:23:37.292 That you could use to like program the robot and there's no reason 00:23:37.292 --> 00:23:39.382 for that to connect to the cloud or there wasn't at the time. 00:23:39.382 --> 00:23:44.112 And so you would just, you would get a SQLite database shipped to you. 00:23:44.312 --> 00:23:47.292 And that's where all of your storage happened was like 00:23:47.302 --> 00:23:49.502 locally in this, in this file. 00:23:49.782 --> 00:23:53.122 I know if you poke around locally too, there's some really interesting 00:23:53.162 --> 00:23:55.512 Apple services that use SQLite. 00:23:55.532 --> 00:24:01.132 Like if you're on your own machine, you can open up your iMessages As just 00:24:01.132 --> 00:24:04.902 like a straight up SQLite database, that's like not encrypted or anything. 00:24:04.902 --> 00:24:10.612 So you can, yeah, there's lots of cool little use cases for it for, I 00:24:10.612 --> 00:24:15.222 don't know, I guess like if you have a persistent storage somewhere, then great. 00:24:16.412 --> 00:24:20.252 Colin: Yeah, I think that what's interesting, maybe the closest parallel 00:24:20.262 --> 00:24:25.472 of an app that I can think of is Discourse, where it's a Rails app. 00:24:25.872 --> 00:24:30.362 That is packaged with Docker that you can download and host yourself for 00:24:30.362 --> 00:24:37.572 free versus once slash campfire is paid and it's not open source, right? 00:24:37.592 --> 00:24:39.142 So discourse is open source. 00:24:39.522 --> 00:24:40.542 It's free to use. 00:24:41.182 --> 00:24:44.762 I don't know what license it is, but you can also pay discourse 00:24:44.812 --> 00:24:47.412 to just have them host it for you and you don't have to do anything. 00:24:47.982 --> 00:24:51.822 it'll be interesting to see how this shapes up because discourse has that. 00:24:52.282 --> 00:24:57.412 Hosted version that they use to make money to then spend on the team contributing 00:24:57.422 --> 00:24:59.622 back to campfire or back to discourse. 00:25:00.052 --> 00:25:03.432 And I'm just curious to see if this actually happens with campfire or 00:25:03.842 --> 00:25:07.032 like some of the podcasts, build your sass talked about this with 00:25:07.032 --> 00:25:11.082 Justin and some others about , do they, it was just an experiment. 00:25:11.287 --> 00:25:15.467 And if they find that it wasn't successful, do they just not do it again? 00:25:16.017 --> 00:25:19.757 I think people were hoping for a once version of base camp but 00:25:19.767 --> 00:25:20.897 that's their bread and butter. 00:25:20.947 --> 00:25:24.812 they might have learned That this, wasn't a success. 00:25:24.862 --> 00:25:27.522 And I think the same thing is like, would it have been a success with 00:25:27.522 --> 00:25:29.162 base camp, but not with campfire? 00:25:29.162 --> 00:25:31.182 Cause it's such a simpler products. 00:25:31.182 --> 00:25:35.932 We already know the number of features and base camp is so much bigger 00:25:35.932 --> 00:25:40.962 than just joining a chat room and posting messages and I would say. 00:25:42.042 --> 00:25:45.362 Looking at the way that they implemented the bots, I mean, really, 00:25:45.632 --> 00:25:47.912 I think it's a good first pass at it. 00:25:47.912 --> 00:25:51.362 I don't think, they're going for really crazy, implementations 00:25:51.372 --> 00:25:53.272 like Slack has or Discord has. 00:25:53.992 --> 00:25:57.662 It really is just, you send a webhook and that webhook gets posted 00:25:57.662 --> 00:26:00.482 as a message by that bot user. 00:26:00.962 --> 00:26:04.202 I enjoy the naming of the route and the controller for that. 00:26:05.582 --> 00:26:06.462 I don't know if you saw that. 00:26:06.862 --> 00:26:07.732 CJ: I did not. 00:26:08.287 --> 00:26:13.007 Colin: So yeah, if we go into our routes folder, it's like, bot key it, 00:26:13.107 --> 00:26:19.367 the controller is messages and then it's a by bots controller versus, yeah. 00:26:19.387 --> 00:26:20.917 And then you have your create. 00:26:21.367 --> 00:26:30.247 So you post to whatever your URL is slash rooms slash looks like it might 00:26:30.247 --> 00:26:32.607 be slash bot key slash messages. 00:26:32.762 --> 00:26:33.202 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:26:33.507 --> 00:26:36.207 Colin: And then that goes into that controller. 00:26:36.207 --> 00:26:39.217 So I'm going to be curious to play around with that and just see like. 00:26:39.822 --> 00:26:46.242 What controls how it gets rendered and, because Slack has a lot of conventions 00:26:46.242 --> 00:26:49.722 for sending in data a certain way for it to be rendered a certain way, 00:26:49.832 --> 00:26:53.642 or is this just going to barf out whatever you send it as a message? 00:26:55.212 --> 00:26:58.562 CJ: This is also really interesting because we're building like two 00:26:58.562 --> 00:27:02.952 way end to end messaging with SMS to, for this like support product. 00:27:02.972 --> 00:27:04.812 And so much of it is the same. 00:27:04.822 --> 00:27:08.682 And we have to deal with a lot of the same stuff in terms of attachments and. 00:27:08.917 --> 00:27:09.967 rendering and whatever. 00:27:09.977 --> 00:27:11.937 So yeah, this is super interesting. 00:27:12.742 --> 00:27:13.102 Colin: Yeah. 00:27:14.987 --> 00:27:22.207 CJ: yeah, again, like lots of included helpers and concerns that are 00:27:22.247 --> 00:27:23.767 probably doing a lot of heavy lifting. 00:27:24.307 --> 00:27:27.697 did you notice the like thruster packaging thruster thing? 00:27:28.572 --> 00:27:30.662 Colin: I saw that in the Dockerfile. 00:27:30.757 --> 00:27:35.257 CJ: Okay, there's like a whole bunch of go code in here, which seemed 00:27:35.277 --> 00:27:39.737 surprising since it's like such a, Ruby shop, they're pushing Ruby so 00:27:39.737 --> 00:27:45.857 hard, but it looks like a lot of this, based on one of DHH's tweets is, a 00:27:45.897 --> 00:27:49.162 proxy accelerator for Rails and Ruby. 00:27:50.342 --> 00:27:55.742 Puma to make it so that you can use HTTP to, compression, caching, 00:27:55.982 --> 00:27:58.072 caching, and, uh, XN file. 00:27:58.352 --> 00:28:05.072 So, yeah, I don't know, like maybe this is an alternative that is pre packaged 00:28:05.082 --> 00:28:10.832 instead of something like engine X or, whatever else you might be reaching for, 00:28:10.862 --> 00:28:14.572 but, yeah, kind of interesting to see how much go code is, is shipped with this. 00:28:15.382 --> 00:28:15.722 Colin: Yeah. 00:28:15.722 --> 00:28:20.092 If you look at the Dockerfile, you can, it's cool to see a Dockerfile for a 00:28:20.092 --> 00:28:24.932 Rails app, But you can get to that build stage for thruster up until that it looks 00:28:24.932 --> 00:28:31.432 mostly like rails And then you end up with the build stage and then they can 00:28:31.432 --> 00:28:37.002 figure their environment a little bit install packages from a more of a linux 00:28:37.192 --> 00:28:43.972 package side of things and Then they boot everything up after they do their ports 00:28:44.642 --> 00:28:49.432 CJ: On the root of the repo too, you can see that it's 7. 00:28:49.472 --> 00:28:53.852 8 percent of the code in here is go, which I don't know, kind of surprising. 00:28:54.012 --> 00:28:57.212 38 percent is Ruby JavaScript. 00:28:57.222 --> 00:29:00.622 Also, I thought DHH wasn't a huge fan of JavaScript, but there we go. 00:29:00.642 --> 00:29:01.012 18%. 00:29:02.252 --> 00:29:03.542 Of, this is JavaScript. 00:29:03.542 --> 00:29:08.342 So there's quite a bit of, stimulus and hotwire stuff going on here, which 00:29:08.752 --> 00:29:13.432 we've really, I don't know, fallen in love with, I guess, at craftwork doing 00:29:13.432 --> 00:29:18.372 a lot more with stimulus than, than in react on the rail side, which is awesome. 00:29:18.956 --> 00:29:23.236 Colin: I think they're critical of more of the full front end JavaScript apps 00:29:23.236 --> 00:29:28.126 where, you really do have to implement almost everything twice when you have the 00:29:28.126 --> 00:29:31.916 back end and then the front end, right, that you have to build an interface, 00:29:31.946 --> 00:29:37.236 an API to, to get the data you need, or you're using like GraphQL or something. 00:29:38.176 --> 00:29:40.206 Because even when I look at these JavaScript files, 00:29:40.206 --> 00:29:42.226 they're vanilla JavaScript. 00:29:43.496 --> 00:29:44.406 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:29:44.461 --> 00:29:45.291 Colin: they're really simple. 00:29:45.291 --> 00:29:47.501 They're like, stimulus controllers and things. 00:29:48.111 --> 00:29:51.361 Does, does this support TypeScript if you even wanted to use it? 00:29:52.561 --> 00:29:53.331 I don't think so. 00:29:53.356 --> 00:29:54.586 CJ: I, yeah, I would doubt it. 00:29:54.616 --> 00:29:57.646 I know that that was like a big contentious thing recently. 00:29:58.281 --> 00:29:58.631 Colin: Yeah. 00:30:00.496 --> 00:30:03.322 CJ: Uses tricks, action text. 00:30:03.689 --> 00:30:04.009 I don't know. 00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:07.919 I, I loved going through the code. 00:30:07.939 --> 00:30:09.229 I thought it was really, really fun. 00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:12.279 It's, opening a present and getting to nerd out on all kinds 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:14.376 of new approaches to things. 00:30:14.376 --> 00:30:17.876 And definitely stacked my reading list for, bits and pieces that I 00:30:17.876 --> 00:30:23.376 want to go take a look at things like action, text, content, filters, and. 00:30:23.871 --> 00:30:24.851 All the helpers. 00:30:24.851 --> 00:30:27.661 And I definitely want to learn more about channels. 00:30:27.711 --> 00:30:31.561 I know we, we have the standard channel and we throw streams a bunch of 00:30:31.561 --> 00:30:36.541 places, but when should you create your own, create a new channel versus not. 00:30:36.551 --> 00:30:40.451 So lots of really, really good stuff in here to emulate, I think. 00:30:41.481 --> 00:30:44.111 Colin: Yeah, and if you did buy Campfire, I don't know if they're 00:30:44.121 --> 00:30:47.471 going to be doing it again, but I know DHH did a code walkthrough. 00:30:47.531 --> 00:30:50.401 I'd be curious to watch that, even if it was just recorded. 00:30:51.031 --> 00:30:56.061 and then one of their designers did like a style and CSS walkthrough. 00:30:56.341 --> 00:30:57.271 Cause I think that's the other thing. 00:30:57.661 --> 00:31:01.791 They get a lot of crap about their design choices, and it's simple. 00:31:01.791 --> 00:31:06.701 It's, could be argued a little bit more approachable and Fisher price. 00:31:07.181 --> 00:31:10.021 but you can read the CSS files. 00:31:10.071 --> 00:31:12.531 It's not this crazy compiled thing. 00:31:12.541 --> 00:31:16.721 It's not using a bootstrap or a tailwind, a shad CN. 00:31:16.731 --> 00:31:21.321 It's, it's using just pure CSS, sometimes I, I think back to those old days of 00:31:21.371 --> 00:31:26.961 the list apart and the, the Jeffrey Zeldman and all the old CSS, things, 00:31:26.981 --> 00:31:29.181 but I said, love me some tailwind. 00:31:29.461 --> 00:31:34.501 CJ: The messages that CSS file, for context is. 00:31:34.951 --> 00:31:42.161 585 lines long, which I think is shockingly huge. 00:31:42.881 --> 00:31:48.121 But, if you sort of stand back a little bit and look at just like really rough 00:31:48.151 --> 00:31:51.601 metrics around the code, like how many lines are certain files and things, 00:31:52.021 --> 00:31:53.291 I think that can give you a sense. 00:31:53.301 --> 00:31:58.091 So for instance, the user model in here is 68 lines. 00:31:58.516 --> 00:32:04.076 Which in my opinion is crazy small given how big user models usually get. 00:32:04.566 --> 00:32:07.846 so yeah, I don't know, like lots of CSS, I guess. 00:32:08.246 --> 00:32:14.936 Colin: Having written a lot of handwritten CSS, there's about 200, lines of button 00:32:15.126 --> 00:32:19.686 CSS, and you get your base button, and you get your circle buttons, and reverse 00:32:19.706 --> 00:32:24.171 buttons, and avatar buttons, so, you're gonna have to do the weird things to make 00:32:24.171 --> 00:32:26.281 it support on all the different devices. 00:32:26.351 --> 00:32:30.441 Autocomplete, is in here and there's like, less than 200 lines of CSS that 00:32:30.441 --> 00:32:35.221 handle, autocomplete, Messages is, is arguably like the biggest thing you do. 00:32:35.451 --> 00:32:38.351 In, in here, so that kind of makes sense. 00:32:38.671 --> 00:32:40.961 I bet the room, let's see if there's a room. 00:32:41.071 --> 00:32:42.381 Oh, they don't even have one for room. 00:32:42.761 --> 00:32:46.471 The container of like where you go look at your settings and you create 00:32:46.471 --> 00:32:50.181 a bot and update your user, like those are all probably using the same CSS, 00:32:50.181 --> 00:32:52.081 so those are probably pretty small. 00:32:52.441 --> 00:32:52.941 CJ: Right. 00:32:54.951 --> 00:32:59.281 Colin: Bunch of box shadows and stuff, Yeah, I mean if anyone wants 00:32:59.281 --> 00:33:02.521 to learn how to do CSS, this would be an interesting way to look at it too. 00:33:02.921 --> 00:33:06.801 CJ: I know that we said , Oh, it's finished software and stuff, but I think 00:33:06.811 --> 00:33:11.091 it might be interesting to try to go in here and add some features yourself. 00:33:11.121 --> 00:33:14.351 Cause you'll end up bumping against different bits and pieces 00:33:14.351 --> 00:33:15.601 of the code to try to learn. 00:33:16.311 --> 00:33:16.821 So 00:33:17.686 --> 00:33:19.796 Colin: Yeah, I don't know what happens. 00:33:19.836 --> 00:33:24.256 I think someone had mentioned if you change the code like You 00:33:24.256 --> 00:33:28.266 don't get any guarantees of like updates or anything happening 00:33:28.921 --> 00:33:29.391 CJ: sure. 00:33:29.441 --> 00:33:29.811 Yeah. 00:33:29.956 --> 00:33:31.956 Colin: don't think it phones home for updates. 00:33:31.966 --> 00:33:33.286 So i'm still curious about that. 00:33:33.336 --> 00:33:37.136 There's not a campfire gem or something that you can just get updates through 00:33:37.696 --> 00:33:41.506 Maybe they're figuring that out as they go because there's a github source for 00:33:41.516 --> 00:33:45.006 base camp, but I think that's being used for some of their base camp gems 00:33:46.796 --> 00:33:47.086 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:47.086 --> 00:33:48.686 Maybe they'll just hide it in the go code. 00:33:50.066 --> 00:33:51.846 It's like, Oh, your NGINX 00:33:51.901 --> 00:33:56.351 Colin: it dips your, dips your code and drops any changes that you made to it. 00:33:56.691 --> 00:34:00.671 I'll say the last thing you don't see a lot in a Rails app is under assets. 00:34:00.671 --> 00:34:02.001 There is a sounds folder 00:34:02.146 --> 00:34:03.386 CJ: I saw that. 00:34:03.761 --> 00:34:05.101 Colin: wonderful MP3s, 00:34:05.866 --> 00:34:06.826 CJ: Oh my gosh. 00:34:07.401 --> 00:34:11.221 Colin: I just, that Mario coin, I'm going to steal that and put that in discord. 00:34:11.221 --> 00:34:11.721 I think 00:34:11.757 --> 00:34:12.567 CJ: It's so fun. 00:34:12.607 --> 00:34:12.947 Yeah. 00:34:13.107 --> 00:34:15.007 That was fun for me to, see also. 00:34:15.007 --> 00:34:15.327 Yeah. 00:34:16.337 --> 00:34:17.307 The yodel. 00:34:17.872 --> 00:34:20.372 Colin: I think these are the same ones. 00:34:20.582 --> 00:34:24.232 So like you used to be able in the original campfire, you could use, there 00:34:24.232 --> 00:34:26.452 was a preselected amount of sounds. 00:34:26.922 --> 00:34:30.382 And when you posted them, it would have a little sound icon. 00:34:30.382 --> 00:34:32.202 And if you pressed it again, it would play it again. 00:34:32.742 --> 00:34:36.712 and I think there, this was, it was probably a setting to turn off 00:34:36.722 --> 00:34:42.152 sounds, but like when we used to use campfire internally, over a decade ago. 00:34:42.152 --> 00:34:46.052 Like it was always a chance to see who didn't have their volume 00:34:46.052 --> 00:34:47.702 down or wasn't wearing headphones. 00:34:47.702 --> 00:34:52.372 And or if you make a sale, you have the cash register sound and stuff like that, 00:34:52.712 --> 00:34:56.332 which I think, Slack, we're so used to like a little tick tock, a little like 00:34:56.782 --> 00:35:02.172 ditting, or in discord, having different sounds and soundboards and stuff, but 00:35:03.377 --> 00:35:03.537 CJ: So 00:35:03.562 --> 00:35:04.762 Colin: make the internet fun again. 00:35:04.997 --> 00:35:07.607 CJ: do you have sound on, on Slack like all day? 00:35:07.667 --> 00:35:10.787 Yeah, 00:35:10.822 --> 00:35:15.212 Colin: Discord, I have sound on my personal one. 00:35:16.102 --> 00:35:18.672 because actually I'm running two versions of Discord, so like my 00:35:18.672 --> 00:35:21.952 personal one makes like a very specific sound, so I know those are 00:35:21.952 --> 00:35:23.382 personal things, I can ignore them. 00:35:23.897 --> 00:35:27.647 And then, I just go off the red dot for my work one. 00:35:28.427 --> 00:35:31.047 notably, this does not have a native app, right? 00:35:31.327 --> 00:35:32.067 For Campfire. 00:35:32.437 --> 00:35:33.977 So this is gonna be web only. 00:35:34.467 --> 00:35:38.487 I'm gonna get it spun up on a box and I'll invite you, and then we can play with it 00:35:38.487 --> 00:35:40.317 on the phone, play with it on the desktop. 00:35:40.527 --> 00:35:44.717 But yeah, this was, this was a pure, a pure code read without actually seeing 00:35:44.717 --> 00:35:46.347 what the actual thing looks like. 00:35:48.432 --> 00:35:51.362 CJ: you'll have to imagine at home while you're driving along in the car, 00:35:51.362 --> 00:35:53.542 listening to this or walking the dog. 00:35:54.332 --> 00:35:55.332 Colin: Yeah, I think it was fun. 00:35:55.847 --> 00:35:58.497 , CJ: fun to walk through the code and yeah, I recommend checking 00:35:58.497 --> 00:35:59.717 it out if you get a chance. 00:36:00.547 --> 00:36:02.167 maybe that's a good spot to wrap it up. 00:36:02.167 --> 00:36:02.427 What do you say? 00:36:03.382 --> 00:36:07.232 Colin: Yeah, I think, maybe next time we'll do a similar dig into 00:36:07.272 --> 00:36:09.822 buckets and talk about some of the things that we're doing over there. 00:36:10.927 --> 00:36:11.387 CJ: Awesome. 00:36:11.597 --> 00:36:12.017 Awesome. 00:36:12.607 --> 00:36:14.987 As always, you can head over to buildandlearn. 00:36:14.987 --> 00:36:18.757 dev to check out links to all the resources in the show notes and we'll 00:36:18.757 --> 00:36:23.187 drop links to some of these tweets and articles and blog posts and, 00:36:23.237 --> 00:36:23.577 Colin: All right. 00:36:23.577 --> 00:36:24.427 We'll see you next time. 00:36:25.582 --> 00:36:26.432 CJ: Alright, bye friends.