WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

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My name is Sam, and I'm Joe Lowe.

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Sam, you stopped saying
your surname at the start.

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Are you going anonymous?

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Yeah, I'm going dark.

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Oh, right.

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No, no, no.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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Oh, okay.

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That's what you used to say.

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That's what I used to say.

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The old school 2022 mm.

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10,000 things heads.

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They want the full.

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They want the full name.

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I think you're right.

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Can you say it again now please?

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Hello.

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Welcome to the 10,000 things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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I'm Joe Low.

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And let's bring those 20, 22 vibes back.

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I'm sure I'm, I'm sure
I'm not the only one.

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Yeah.

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So we're onto part two of our 25
part series and we're recording

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for the first time at my house,
which is a great experience.

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Yes.

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We've got couches.

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That's right.

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It's not, we're not on a camp
chair or a, it's more comfortable.

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Mm.

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And Joe was mind blown when I
plugged the audio interface into

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his computer and he is like, what?

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I can just.

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We can just plug these mics in.

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Yeah.

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You made it seem very microsofty
around at your place, you know?

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Oh yeah, for sure.

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And also there was a mixer
involved and it just looks hard.

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It looked complicated.

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I didn't know you could come around
and plug it into my little Mac.

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Well, if there's just laptop.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Well, if there's just two
mics, I've got us covered.

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So anyway, enough inside baseball.

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Let's get on to verse
two of the Tao de Ching.

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Why are we talking about the Tao de Ching?

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What's your understanding of why we're
talking about this ancient wisdom?

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Right.

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Oh, for sure.

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Ancient wisdom, which can be
applied to our very lives today.

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And here's another word, which is almost
meaningless, timeless, timeless wisdom.

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I think it is, because we're gonna
refer to three different translations

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of verse two, because they're all
a little, quite a bit different.

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But Sam, I said you had to limit
it to two different translations.

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Okay, well, I'm gonna pitch, we refer
to Steven Mitchell because he's just

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a go-to, and we should refer to Ursula
la Kayla Gwynn, because it just.

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I just can't pin you down.

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I did sit.

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I've gotta let go.

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It's true.

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I am a slippery fish.

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Yeah, yeah, it's true.

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I'm, I said you could have max
two translations and we have zero

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feedback on the last episode.

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'cause it got published five minutes
ago, so they might all be going, whoa.

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What was all the translations?

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Man, I think you're right.

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The feedback is gonna be Sam.

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It's okay to nerd out, but that was too
far and, and I think the feedback on this

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one will be, that was more manageable.

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Thank you for cutting back to three.

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Okay.

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So we're anticipating our audience's
feedback and And adjusting in advance.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Okay.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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I'm very dynamic.

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It's the best we can do, but also
I think we're all right at it.

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But I also will pitch that the.

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Other two translations I want to use,
I've picked for very particular reasons.

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One is Ursula La Kayla g Guin,
which many of you will love.

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She's a renowned environmentalist and
author and just all round legend who

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I think did probably more to introduce
Eastery stuff to the West than.

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She's given credit for.

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We normally hear names like Alan
Watts, Thomas Merton, people like that.

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Um, it would be good to have someone
who's not Alan Watts because every time

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I share an Alan Watts thing, I'm always
like, oh no, that wife beating alcoholic.

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Yeah.

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It's a, it's a real bummer.

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It's like he was not
just a little bit No bad.

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He was pretty bad.

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He was real bad.

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Yeah.

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And I really love his shit.

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So it's like, like his books are good.

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It's, it's more his talks for me.

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You know, it's more his spiritual
entertainer kind of stuff.

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Same as with Ramdas, and I went
back to Ramdas the other day,

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Sam, and I've heard all his gags.

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And you realize that these
recordings from the, you know,

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mid sixties till the nineties.

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Mm-hmm.

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He's using some of the same gags.

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He's like a standup.

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He's a standup comedian man.

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Yeah.

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He's got, he's got his bits
and he's recycling bits.

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He is recycling bits.

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But when I first got onto Ramdas, I was
like, holy shit, this guy's so fresh.

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This is amazing.

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This has given me the
spiritual education I need.

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And then I struggled at the
start to understand Alan Watts.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then I've worked my way up
to understanding Alan Watts.

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Then I looked into it and found out he
was this shocking, alcoholic, violent man.

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Yes.

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And that kind of you I'm a bit
of, I'm very much a separate the

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art from the artist kind of guy.

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I'm less that, but yeah.

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I'm halfway.

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Yeah, I am.

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Yeah.

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But.

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I mean, I haven't gone back
and watched Louis the show.

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No, but I, I struggle with it.

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Yeah.

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Be able to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Maybe in that case it, it ruined
the actual jokes or something.

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It did a bit.

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And look Louis's way less of a
monster than Alan Watts possibly.

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Mm.

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Which is weird because Alan Watts
comes to us as this like, embodiment

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of like, could being cool and zen
and like he could do calligraphy.

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He could read.

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You know, the Chinese characters,
he was like a really reasonable

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scholar and a bit of a showman.

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And he founded some
communities and he did a lot.

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But unfortunately he had these terrible
afflictions in his life and he was

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not able to, I think, fully practice
the zen that he really wanted to.

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Thomas Merton, also famous translation of
some verses from Chang Zu, uh, Chang Zu.

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He also had some personal demons.

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Um, I found out.

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And more directed towards
himself than towards others?

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I think so.

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That's maybe a little better.

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Ursula Le Guin, as far as
I know, no flies on her.

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Yeah.

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So it might be time for me to
go through an Ursula phase.

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Well, she's a fantastic novelist.

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Some people have called her sci-fi.

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Some people have called her fantasy.

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You know, some people have called her a
feminist novelist, an environmentalist

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novelist, a Daoist novelist.

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I think maybe she's all all
of those things to a degree.

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But in the Wizard of Earth Sea,
in way back in the sixties, a.

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A, a story about a boy who has power, but
he has to learn to use it responsibly.

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And he, he unleashes a curse upon himself.

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He basically creates a shadow version of
himself, and then he runs away from it,

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and he has to reconcile with the shadow.

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It's very doubt, it illustrates a lot
of what we're talking about today, and

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so that there's a reason why Ursula
Le Guin did her own translation.

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And you can hear her read it yourself
on, uh, online as well if you want.

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But the third translation I wanted
to mention was by Alistair Crowley.

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Oh, the Satanist.

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The Satanist.

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And talk about bad guys.

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I mean, this guy, I mean,
he's cancel proof in a sense.

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People have tried to cancel him
for years 'cause he is a bad guy.

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But he's worth mentioning
because he's such a giant figure

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in occult circles and just.

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You know, Western spirituality, like
it or not, corral is part of the

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landscape and he sees value in this text.

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So it's, it's showing you.

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Can I, can I ask you a question, Sam?

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Mm-hmm.

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Do you think I've been drawn
towards the occult in my last

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10 years of spiritual searching?

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Because before that I was just an atheist.

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Yeah, you were a pretty hardcore
materialist 'cause you did have a, yeah.

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You did have a Marxist up.

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Bringing and the, yeah, only money.

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I was a rational rationalist.

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Materialist, atheist.

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Yes.

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And, and then for the last,
roughly 10 years, since I got out

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of the psych ward last mm-hmm.

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I've been on a spiritual journey.

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Yeah.

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And I feel like at times I've
been drawn towards the occult.

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Oh, same.

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Like, 'cause that's where
all the cool shit happens.

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Well, I was obsessed with Houdini
when I was a kid and Oh, that, that's,

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that's a cult adjacent as well.

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But years later, after reading a lot
about Houdini, like two years into

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my obsession, I kind of realized
actually he was not a mystic at all.

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He was constantly going around
trying to debunk the mystics.

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Mm.

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And so he, he was a bit of a, um,
Adam ruins everything kind of guy.

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Not an obs, not a mystification
guy, but it has to be acknowledged.

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That the mystical stuff can help
people, but it's also full of grifters.

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Yes.

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And dangerous people.

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I don't think I've spent
any money on spiritual.

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Oh no.

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I went to a kinesiologist once.

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Oh, that's okay.

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I had met her on a dating app and we,
the dating didn't really go anywhere.

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Then we became friends and
then I was having a hard time.

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She said, oh, you can
come in for a treatment.

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What is kinesiology?

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Uh, it was very strange.

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He went through pages in a book and
stopped at random places and read

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things out and said at all times, in
all places, please protect this soul.

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And then she told me to go and like, go
somewhere unusual that I wouldn't normally

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go and stand there and wait for a change.

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And, whoa, $230.

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Now my highly trained clinical
psychologist only charges me 180.

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That's a bargain.

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Yeah, it's a bargain.

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I think she must find me interesting
or something, or she, she hears

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every time about how broke I am.

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Is that a.

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Yeah, well, she might have a sliding
scale, which a lot of people do.

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A friend of mine said she thought she
might have a day job and she just does

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a few clients on the side to keep her
le and psychoanalysis brain working.

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I wish there were more therapists
that weren't full-time.

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Yeah, I think part-time is better.

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I think she might be part-time
because how is she getting away

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with any charge Me 180 anyway.

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Yeah, that's a good one.

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Kinesiology two 30.

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I really, it was really weird
and it's a strange experience.

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It kind of made me realize,
well, I met you on a dating app.

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I kind of would rather be sleeping
with you than giving you $230

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for you to read out of a book.

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Look, I think it's just good to
be straight up with people, but

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having said that, it's possible that
kinesiology might've helped, and I

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think having an experimental mindset
in life, being willing to risk 230

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bucks is maybe not such a bad thing.

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I mean, I'm in an okay place right now.

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Maybe it was the
kinesiology, you never know.

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Anything could make a difference.

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I, I had like a shaman healer type
person whose primary modality was

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like, I don't know what you'd call it.

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Like she was a chiropractor
I guess, but she had Oh yeah.

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The chiropractors get weird, don't they?

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It's a gateway.

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Yeah.

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She, she had, uh, you know,
nutrition stuff going on and

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we know that's a gateway.

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But no, she just wanted me to
eat more protein in the morning,

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which is like, good advice.

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But she also hypnotized me and did
these body movement things and like.

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I gotta say, I think she might've
helped, you know, the number

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one charlatan on the internet.

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Joe Dispenza, yeah.

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Was a chiropractor.

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Oh yeah.

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Big time.

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A lot of those guys are, and I've
also met chiropractors who I think

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are pretty solid and trustworthy.

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And so it's just, it's like anything,
it's, they're open to more ideas.

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And occasionally, well, you know,
like Isaac Newton for example.

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Massive brain box.

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Did a lot for maths
and physics, et cetera.

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So I did a lot for the rationalist
worldview, but was also a total

00:10:29.280 --> 00:10:33.390
intellectual freak who was into some
very weird stuff as well, and had crazy

00:10:33.390 --> 00:10:34.800
theories about all kinds of stuff.

00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:35.760
But you know, we still.

00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:39.780
We still make use of the part
of his work that just stands up.

00:10:39.780 --> 00:10:43.439
So in fairness to the kinesiologist,
there might be some part of

00:10:43.439 --> 00:10:44.610
it that is just right on.

00:10:44.819 --> 00:10:49.650
I must say I had very strong mystical
experiences in acupuncture where

00:10:49.650 --> 00:10:53.819
this guy was doing, like setting
things on fire on me, whoa cupping.

00:10:53.939 --> 00:10:56.280
But I was, that was just before
I went to the psych ward.

00:10:56.280 --> 00:10:58.560
So I think I was already
in the, you were primed.

00:10:58.800 --> 00:11:00.990
I was sort of slipping into psychosis.

00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:03.900
Does Accu acu, the acupuncturists
get pretty weird too.

00:11:03.930 --> 00:11:05.220
They can cupping.

00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:06.572
Is, is that cupping that they doing?

00:11:06.572 --> 00:11:07.320
No, there was no cupping.

00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:07.920
That's a different thing.

00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:13.110
He would put moha on certain points
and then set it on fire and then I

00:11:13.110 --> 00:11:15.570
just went into other realms and stuff.

00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:15.930
Wow.

00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:19.950
Moha means liberation in, you
know, you're going well spiritually

00:11:19.950 --> 00:11:21.300
when you go into the other realms.

00:11:21.825 --> 00:11:25.875
Yeah, you know, or going really badly and
about to get locked up in the psych ward.

00:11:26.145 --> 00:11:28.635
Do you know I glimpse
the other realms, Joe.

00:11:28.665 --> 00:11:31.335
I set a toe in them sometimes.

00:11:31.665 --> 00:11:34.605
Occasionally I stick my head through
the door and have a look around it.

00:11:34.605 --> 00:11:37.875
Feel like you were raised with
access to the other realms and you've

00:11:37.875 --> 00:11:41.265
worked your way back into being a
fairly boring middle class person.

00:11:41.355 --> 00:11:45.495
Do you know what this whole thing
exactly, just, I've been running a

00:11:45.495 --> 00:11:49.395
scam since I was 12, which is persuade
all the normies on one of them.

00:11:49.845 --> 00:11:50.115
It's true.

00:11:50.505 --> 00:11:51.165
How's it going?

00:11:51.719 --> 00:11:55.425
Well, let's read out the da Ching and
do you think I've, you know, do you

00:11:55.430 --> 00:11:59.219
think I've succeeded or, you know,
in being, becoming a normie or, uh,

00:11:59.219 --> 00:12:03.270
I think you're just on the surface, a
strange person with a strange energy,

00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:05.520
so you'll never fully blend in.

00:12:06.719 --> 00:12:08.910
You know, you're just a natural freak.

00:12:09.390 --> 00:12:10.439
Yeah, I just don't think.

00:12:10.755 --> 00:12:13.725
Yeah, it's a lost cause, but I can
just try and sand down some of the

00:12:13.725 --> 00:12:15.255
rough edges and just be less annoying.

00:12:15.255 --> 00:12:18.915
Maybe that could, you know, I'm always
up for you being this annoying Sam.

00:12:19.275 --> 00:12:20.175
Alright, well let's, yeah.

00:12:20.265 --> 00:12:20.625
Thank you.

00:12:20.625 --> 00:12:24.675
Well, let's start with, you know,
the fairly uncontroversial, uh,

00:12:24.705 --> 00:12:30.585
Stephen Mitchell translation
from 1995 ding verse two.

00:12:31.545 --> 00:12:36.045
When people see some things as
beautiful, other things become ugly.

00:12:36.855 --> 00:12:38.685
When people see some things as good.

00:12:39.165 --> 00:12:43.275
Other things become bad being
and non-being create each

00:12:43.275 --> 00:12:45.735
other difficult and easy.

00:12:45.765 --> 00:12:48.705
Support each other long and short.

00:12:48.855 --> 00:12:54.195
Define each other high and low,
depend on each other before

00:12:54.195 --> 00:12:56.595
and after, follow each other.

00:12:57.435 --> 00:13:01.335
Therefore, the master acts without
doing anything and teachers,

00:13:01.335 --> 00:13:05.505
without saying anything, things
arise and she lets them come.

00:13:05.775 --> 00:13:07.665
Things disappear and she lets them go.

00:13:08.385 --> 00:13:13.215
She has but doesn't possess
acts, but doesn't expect when

00:13:13.215 --> 00:13:15.225
her work is done, she forgets it.

00:13:15.735 --> 00:13:17.265
That is why it lasts forever.

00:13:17.775 --> 00:13:20.565
I think we're gonna have to line
by line that Sam, so I don't know.

00:13:20.625 --> 00:13:21.615
There's too much in it.

00:13:21.945 --> 00:13:22.485
Yeah.

00:13:22.545 --> 00:13:25.605
So that like, you can't sort of
bite that whole thing off in one go.

00:13:25.605 --> 00:13:29.715
Can you, so I'm happy to line by line
or do you wanna read other translations?

00:13:30.135 --> 00:13:30.225
Sure.

00:13:30.345 --> 00:13:33.465
Well, yeah, let's, um, let's hear from
Ula Laquinn because I think it would

00:13:33.465 --> 00:13:35.955
be helpful to just read the whole
thing one more time so that people

00:13:35.955 --> 00:13:39.525
get it in their heads and then we
start line by line everybody on earth.

00:13:39.525 --> 00:13:42.735
Knowing that beauty is
beautiful makes ugliness,

00:13:44.805 --> 00:13:49.545
everybody knowing that goodness
is good makes wickedness for being

00:13:49.545 --> 00:13:51.435
and non being a rise together.

00:13:52.125 --> 00:13:53.445
Hard and easy.

00:13:53.505 --> 00:13:56.445
Complete each other, long and short.

00:13:56.745 --> 00:13:57.975
Shape each other.

00:13:58.455 --> 00:13:59.805
Note and voice.

00:13:59.865 --> 00:14:03.615
Make the music together before and after.

00:14:03.885 --> 00:14:04.875
Follow each other.

00:14:05.385 --> 00:14:11.805
That's why the wise soul does without
doing teachers, without talking, the

00:14:11.805 --> 00:14:14.115
things of this world exist They are.

00:14:15.165 --> 00:14:19.395
You can't refuse them
to bear and not to own.

00:14:20.069 --> 00:14:26.339
To act and not lay claim to do
the work and let it go for just

00:14:26.339 --> 00:14:28.469
letting it go is what makes it stay.

00:14:28.829 --> 00:14:30.209
Mm, I really like that.

00:14:30.420 --> 00:14:31.170
It's good, isn't it?

00:14:31.439 --> 00:14:33.209
Did you wanna read a third translation?

00:14:34.035 --> 00:14:34.785
Yeah, why not?

00:14:34.785 --> 00:14:35.865
So let's get that out.

00:14:35.865 --> 00:14:39.045
I didn't want you to, I didn't wanted
you to choose two, but you defied me.

00:14:39.135 --> 00:14:42.704
Well, let, I did Well,
let's, let's get the beast.

00:14:42.735 --> 00:14:46.185
Well, I think for me and the audience,
we all need to let these wash over

00:14:46.185 --> 00:14:49.935
us and we'll come back and pick
one and line by line at, you know.

00:14:50.535 --> 00:14:51.165
Yeah.

00:14:51.170 --> 00:14:52.485
I think that's the way to go.

00:14:52.605 --> 00:14:53.985
So here's Alistair Crowley.

00:14:54.285 --> 00:14:59.775
All men know that beauty and ugliness are
correlatives, as are skill and clumsiness.

00:15:00.344 --> 00:15:02.745
One implies and suggests the other.

00:15:04.574 --> 00:15:09.045
So also existence and non-existence
pose the one the other.

00:15:10.395 --> 00:15:17.984
So also is it with ease and difficulty,
length and shortness, height and lowness.

00:15:19.005 --> 00:15:24.584
Also, music exists through harmony of
opposites, time and space depend upon

00:15:24.614 --> 00:15:28.155
contra position by the use of this method.

00:15:28.785 --> 00:15:34.965
The sage can fulfill his will without
action and utter his word without speech.

00:15:36.465 --> 00:15:39.015
All things arise without dissidence.

00:15:39.135 --> 00:15:41.205
They grow and none interferes.

00:15:41.415 --> 00:15:43.905
They change according
to their natural order.

00:15:44.805 --> 00:15:46.965
Without lust of result.

00:15:48.045 --> 00:15:49.305
The work is accomplished.

00:15:49.785 --> 00:15:53.085
Yet continue with in
its orbit without goal.

00:15:53.655 --> 00:15:55.875
This work is done unconsciously.

00:15:56.355 --> 00:15:59.775
This is why its energy is indefatigable.

00:16:00.195 --> 00:16:00.645
Mm.

00:16:00.675 --> 00:16:03.885
So I think I wanna line by
line the earth of the Guin one.

00:16:03.915 --> 00:16:05.085
I think it's the clearest.

00:16:05.085 --> 00:16:06.915
I think that's the one
that sings the most.

00:16:06.975 --> 00:16:07.575
It does.

00:16:08.175 --> 00:16:09.195
So let's just do that.

00:16:09.885 --> 00:16:10.245
Great.

00:16:11.115 --> 00:16:13.665
Everybody on earth knowing
that beauty is beautiful.

00:16:13.695 --> 00:16:16.065
Makes ugliness okay now.

00:16:17.535 --> 00:16:19.185
Huge problem in my life, Sam.

00:16:19.695 --> 00:16:21.405
Yeah, is judgment.

00:16:21.765 --> 00:16:22.215
Yes.

00:16:22.455 --> 00:16:25.575
I judge everything correct.

00:16:25.635 --> 00:16:29.565
I get up in the morning, I look at
my kettle as I'm boiling the kettle,

00:16:29.565 --> 00:16:30.885
and I got opinions about the kettle.

00:16:30.945 --> 00:16:33.945
I'm like, that's not a good kettle.

00:16:34.095 --> 00:16:34.515
You know?

00:16:34.575 --> 00:16:35.085
I agree.

00:16:35.685 --> 00:16:39.945
And then I go to the bathroom and I
think, I don't like this bathroom.

00:16:40.065 --> 00:16:44.085
And then I'll make a coffee and I'll
be like, I really like this coffee.

00:16:44.505 --> 00:16:45.945
And then my whole day.

00:16:46.770 --> 00:16:51.120
Every single thing that I
encounter, I judge as good or bad.

00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.760
Now, I don't know if I'm
the only one who does that.

00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:54.570
No, surely not.

00:16:55.020 --> 00:16:59.190
But what I've noticed is when it creeps
into relationships, it's a problem.

00:16:59.310 --> 00:17:02.820
It's the beginning of the end of
a friendship or a relationship.

00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:03.270
Mm-hmm.

00:17:03.824 --> 00:17:06.645
Is the judgment, but I don't
know how to switch it off.

00:17:06.645 --> 00:17:10.845
So the first line of this, it's not
even saying it's a problem, isn't it?

00:17:10.845 --> 00:17:15.254
It's just saying, when you decide
something's good, you immediately

00:17:15.254 --> 00:17:16.935
make someone something else bad.

00:17:17.415 --> 00:17:17.895
Yes.

00:17:18.555 --> 00:17:20.595
That's why I, I agree entirely.

00:17:20.595 --> 00:17:24.494
So what I, one thing I like a lot
about the da de Ching is that.

00:17:24.810 --> 00:17:26.220
I feel like it's not preachy.

00:17:27.060 --> 00:17:29.700
I feel like it's just
telling you how it is now.

00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:30.570
Others will disagree.

00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:32.820
Others will say, no, this
text has a point of view.

00:17:32.879 --> 00:17:35.460
It's unfair to just claim that
this text is sort of just more

00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:37.080
objectively true than anything else.

00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:40.889
But when I first read this stuff, it
just seemed like cool mumbo jumbo.

00:17:41.040 --> 00:17:44.490
If I'm honest right now, when I read it.

00:17:45.389 --> 00:17:49.110
It seems like genuine, simple truth.

00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:54.000
To me, it doesn't seem overly,
doesn't seem highfalutin.

00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:58.770
It doesn't seem highfalutin because
I sure as hell can vibe with

00:17:58.770 --> 00:18:02.970
this idea that I'm going around.

00:18:03.030 --> 00:18:04.980
Just my mind is discriminating.

00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:05.910
It's going, I like that.

00:18:05.910 --> 00:18:10.620
I don't like that, and I'm looking at
this building and going, mm, it's ugly.

00:18:11.129 --> 00:18:13.379
I'm looking at this other building
and going, that's more like it.

00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:15.570
Why can't more stuff look like that?

00:18:15.750 --> 00:18:17.670
Where the modern world is ugly?

00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:18.870
Look at this bus shelter.

00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:20.340
What an absolute travesty.

00:18:20.760 --> 00:18:25.830
What, what an offense to both practicality
and aesthetic, but what is the Tao

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:30.900
Dao de Ching saying is the price to
be paid for this constant judging?

00:18:31.230 --> 00:18:32.100
Great question.

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.440
I think it's inviting us to
draw our own conclusions.

00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:37.380
And I mean, of course, look,
once you've gotten through the

00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:40.860
whole 72 verses or whatever, I
mean, I think it is pointing you.

00:18:41.205 --> 00:18:42.915
It's definitely pointing
you towards something.

00:18:43.095 --> 00:18:47.415
But I think with this, it's like, it's,
it's laying a statement before us and

00:18:47.415 --> 00:18:51.524
it's inviting us to really try and
understand what that means and just try

00:18:51.524 --> 00:18:55.665
and observe as we go through life and
observe our own reactions to things.

00:18:55.815 --> 00:19:00.045
But to answer your question, the problem
is with being, with our obsession with

00:19:00.045 --> 00:19:04.065
beauty, we're actually making the u we
are making the things we find U uglier.

00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:09.300
But is it, is it suddenly implying that we
might not know what we're talking about?

00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:09.480
Yeah.

00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.720
It's also saying that like we
don't know what's good and bad.

00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:14.520
We don't know what's beautiful and ugly.

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:17.430
It's saying, fine, have a judgment.

00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:19.050
You're a human being.

00:19:19.409 --> 00:19:21.030
You're just walking
around full of opinions.

00:19:21.030 --> 00:19:22.560
That's just the nature of humans.

00:19:22.949 --> 00:19:25.560
It's kind of being quite forgiving
and understanding and matter

00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:27.899
of fact about it, but it's, but
it's pointing to something else.

00:19:27.929 --> 00:19:28.290
Yes.

00:19:28.290 --> 00:19:31.229
Beyond that, we could be,
yes, we could be, yes.

00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:32.159
Not doing that.

00:19:32.219 --> 00:19:32.580
Right.

00:19:32.610 --> 00:19:36.570
It's really, it's, I, to me
it's trying to say, bro, you

00:19:36.570 --> 00:19:38.490
don't have to live like this.

00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:39.780
If you Yes.

00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:40.770
If you don't want to.

00:19:41.175 --> 00:19:45.345
Recognize that living like this, thinking
like this is causing you suffering.

00:19:45.405 --> 00:19:45.795
I like it.

00:19:45.795 --> 00:19:46.065
All right.

00:19:46.065 --> 00:19:46.635
Next line.

00:19:46.755 --> 00:19:48.105
Yeah, that's really good.

00:19:48.345 --> 00:19:48.645
Yeah.

00:19:48.795 --> 00:19:50.805
Thank you everybody.

00:19:50.805 --> 00:19:52.340
Knowing that goodness is good.

00:19:53.010 --> 00:19:54.419
Makes wickedness.

00:19:54.629 --> 00:19:55.949
It's pretty much the same point, isn't it?

00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:56.310
You?

00:19:56.310 --> 00:19:57.330
Yeah, I think it's fine.

00:19:57.330 --> 00:19:59.850
Structurally, it's fine
to say yes structurally.

00:19:59.850 --> 00:20:02.580
These are logical correlates.

00:20:02.580 --> 00:20:06.929
They are formulated in the same way,
but I think it's necessary to make

00:20:06.929 --> 00:20:08.760
the two statements and I'll say why.

00:20:08.909 --> 00:20:09.419
Yeah.

00:20:09.540 --> 00:20:13.199
I think that talking about
beauty and ugliness is a

00:20:13.199 --> 00:20:14.669
very deliberate opening move.

00:20:15.584 --> 00:20:18.225
It's in theory not important, is it?

00:20:19.125 --> 00:20:19.334
Right?

00:20:19.334 --> 00:20:21.074
We're all told that beauty is superficial.

00:20:21.074 --> 00:20:22.665
It's, you know, skin deep, skin deep.

00:20:22.665 --> 00:20:24.225
It's not what really matters.

00:20:24.225 --> 00:20:27.165
It's the content of the person that
matters, you know, and sure, all of

00:20:27.165 --> 00:20:33.764
that's true, maybe, but I think it wants
to invite us into the world of surfaces

00:20:33.794 --> 00:20:37.605
to begin with and to really talk about
something that we all know matters.

00:20:38.205 --> 00:20:41.175
And as much as we'd like beauty
not to matter, we know it does.

00:20:41.504 --> 00:20:42.705
Beauty is sexy, right?

00:20:42.765 --> 00:20:44.535
So it's, it's opening
up with some sexy stuff.

00:20:44.535 --> 00:20:47.385
So beauty and ugliness and then
goodness and wickedness, was it?

00:20:47.385 --> 00:20:47.715
Exactly.

00:20:47.715 --> 00:20:50.025
So then the second verse,
it's, look, goodness is a lot

00:20:50.025 --> 00:20:51.375
less sexy than beauty, right?

00:20:51.375 --> 00:20:52.125
Mm-hmm.

00:20:52.185 --> 00:20:52.665
So.

00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:56.070
It's gonna hit us with the sexy
example first 'cause it's more potent.

00:20:56.490 --> 00:21:00.840
And then invite us to the deeper
meditation, which is, well,

00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:03.930
what is we mistake the beautiful
for the good all the time.

00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:06.570
We mistake the ugly for
the bad all the time.

00:21:07.020 --> 00:21:10.980
So that's why it then talks
about goodness and wickedness.

00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:16.800
And do you, can I ask you, do you
believe there's such a thing as evil?

00:21:17.804 --> 00:21:22.425
Not, uh, like a sort of
true metaphysical evil.

00:21:22.695 --> 00:21:24.465
Uh, I go back and forth on this one.

00:21:24.645 --> 00:21:28.125
I'm definitely not a sort of,
Satan is real, you know, type.

00:21:28.245 --> 00:21:32.145
I don't think even Alistair Crowley
felt that Satan was real at all times.

00:21:32.145 --> 00:21:35.835
But, uh, I think that he, you know,
just for the record, I think Alistair

00:21:35.835 --> 00:21:39.705
Crowley was a bad guy, but I think
he was trying to, he was trying

00:21:39.705 --> 00:21:41.835
to live a life without hypocrisy.

00:21:42.075 --> 00:21:43.725
That's what these satanists are on about.

00:21:44.054 --> 00:21:44.085
Mm.

00:21:44.145 --> 00:21:44.685
They're like.

00:21:45.044 --> 00:21:46.395
Call me good, call me bad.

00:21:46.455 --> 00:21:47.774
It means nothing to me.

00:21:48.314 --> 00:21:53.385
I accept who and what I am, but do
you personally believe that there's

00:21:53.385 --> 00:21:55.905
such a, a force in the world as evil?

00:21:57.314 --> 00:22:02.175
I think what I think Crowley set
out to try and find that out and to

00:22:02.175 --> 00:22:04.455
try to engage actively with evil.

00:22:05.385 --> 00:22:10.665
And from what I understand of his
biography, he as a result caused a lot

00:22:10.665 --> 00:22:14.655
of suffering to others and he experienced
a lot of suffering himself and I.

00:22:15.270 --> 00:22:20.460
I think that he did believe there was a
malevolence in the universe that you could

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:23.130
access and use, or that it was just there.

00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:28.410
In any case, I do come away with the idea
that for all of his bad and wickedness,

00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:32.340
that Crowley was a humanist, and that
he believed that humans had the task

00:22:32.340 --> 00:22:36.120
and the burden and the right to define
that reality for themselves, and that.

00:22:36.885 --> 00:22:38.955
There was no getting around it,
that we were the ones who were

00:22:38.955 --> 00:22:40.245
gonna say what things mean.

00:22:40.635 --> 00:22:44.235
And I, I think that we're the ones
doing the discriminating, right?

00:22:44.504 --> 00:22:48.015
And so I think ultimately
Crowley does not believe in evil.

00:22:48.285 --> 00:22:49.725
It does not believe in Satan, but he.

00:22:50.865 --> 00:22:53.505
But we can make, we can manifest
these things if we want.

00:22:53.505 --> 00:22:55.845
It's interesting that
you deferred to Crowley.

00:22:55.905 --> 00:22:57.855
Well, because I think he's, and
I was asking what you think.

00:22:57.855 --> 00:23:02.385
Well, because he's the embodiment of evil
to a lot of people, so, so I kind of see

00:23:02.385 --> 00:23:03.855
him as a little bit of an authority on it.

00:23:04.095 --> 00:23:05.655
And I guess that tells
you something about me.

00:23:05.655 --> 00:23:08.985
I do want to defer to, but if someone
does something bad in your neighborhood,

00:23:08.985 --> 00:23:10.695
do you think, oh, that's evil?

00:23:10.755 --> 00:23:13.305
Or do you think it was the
circumstances of their life?

00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:13.780
Yeah.

00:23:13.780 --> 00:23:17.290
So to get what that led up to the,
that led up to the bad thing happening.

00:23:17.320 --> 00:23:20.889
'cause I, 'cause my personal view is
that it's, everything's just kind of

00:23:20.889 --> 00:23:25.899
this runoff from the Big Bang and the
Yes, I'm a bit determinist in that sense.

00:23:25.899 --> 00:23:29.560
There's probably nothing much we
could have done to change any of it.

00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:33.699
I'm, I'm the latest bad thing that
happens in your neighborhood was.

00:23:33.770 --> 00:23:37.190
Inevitable from something,
from someone being born Sure.

00:23:37.310 --> 00:23:38.330
50 years before.

00:23:38.330 --> 00:23:38.600
Sure.

00:23:38.795 --> 00:23:41.690
I'm, I'm less deterministic
than that, but to answer your

00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:43.895
question more bluntly, no, I.

00:23:43.895 --> 00:23:45.765
I don't believe in a metaphysical evil.

00:23:45.795 --> 00:23:47.085
No, I don't think I do either.

00:23:47.115 --> 00:23:47.385
No.

00:23:47.595 --> 00:23:54.375
But I believe but con in contradiction
to that, I believe in a loving awareness.

00:23:54.765 --> 00:23:55.155
Yes.

00:23:55.185 --> 00:23:58.485
That is kind of what the
universe is made out of.

00:23:58.575 --> 00:23:58.995
Yes.

00:23:59.025 --> 00:24:04.065
That I can drop into in meditation because
I've had strong experiences with that.

00:24:04.155 --> 00:24:04.245
Mm-hmm.

00:24:04.845 --> 00:24:06.375
So that's, there's a contradiction.

00:24:06.405 --> 00:24:07.245
I, I, I can't.

00:24:07.510 --> 00:24:08.980
Scientifically prove that, of course.

00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:09.879
But it feels real.

00:24:09.879 --> 00:24:14.590
But it's, it's been noted by meditators
for about 3000 years at least.

00:24:14.860 --> 00:24:15.970
Yes, exactly.

00:24:15.970 --> 00:24:19.120
And I think that there were times
in my life where I felt, yeah, I had

00:24:19.120 --> 00:24:22.600
a little crack, just a little peek
through the crack in the door into

00:24:22.600 --> 00:24:24.940
like that cosmic world of, you know.

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:25.540
Wow.

00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:30.190
And just by the very same token,
when I was at my, some of my most

00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:31.930
vulnerable moments and maybe doing.

00:24:32.564 --> 00:24:35.985
Doing a lot of things that weren't
good for my health and, uh, my sanity

00:24:36.465 --> 00:24:39.824
that I think that there were times
I felt the presence of evil, like

00:24:39.824 --> 00:24:41.534
when I was in that sort of estate.

00:24:41.955 --> 00:24:42.554
Yeah.

00:24:42.554 --> 00:24:47.715
I mean, certainly a bad acid trip to
me felt like I was Yeah, trapped in.

00:24:48.270 --> 00:24:49.530
Encased in evil.

00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:50.430
Yes.

00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:52.170
And there was no escaping it.

00:24:52.290 --> 00:24:52.860
That's right.

00:24:53.010 --> 00:24:57.240
So I had that kind of experience of
evil as this thing outside the self

00:24:57.360 --> 00:24:59.400
that I was now brushing up against.

00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:03.240
But then over time, the most recent
experience I had like that is actually

00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.670
only probably in the last six months.

00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:10.230
And it was the closest to
like a delusional episode that

00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:11.340
I've had in quite some time.

00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:13.830
Although Adam said, no,
no, no, that was not.

00:25:14.159 --> 00:25:18.090
Delusion or perps psychosis,
you know, edge of psychosis.

00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:19.260
It felt like that to you.

00:25:19.260 --> 00:25:22.320
But what was actually happening is
you were actually having a profound

00:25:22.320 --> 00:25:26.730
confrontation with your own reality
and, and reality itself, and you just

00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:28.980
found it incredibly uncomfortable.

00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:29.790
Adam?

00:25:29.879 --> 00:25:30.960
Adam being a therapist.

00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:31.649
Yeah, my therapist.

00:25:31.649 --> 00:25:31.949
Yeah.

00:25:32.280 --> 00:25:33.149
And I think he's right.

00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:38.429
It felt like a spooky, in
a bad way experience, but.

00:25:38.790 --> 00:25:44.340
What was really happening was I had just
sort of a couple of hours of profound,

00:25:44.340 --> 00:25:50.520
like of profoundly recognizing my own
ugliness and not in the superficial sense,

00:25:50.520 --> 00:25:57.240
in the inside sense of really confronting
the idea that I was a bad person.

00:25:57.630 --> 00:26:03.265
But yeah, for the decade that I've been
mostly single, some of my behavior has

00:26:03.665 --> 00:26:05.250
suffered, has strayed into the evil.

00:26:05.370 --> 00:26:05.610
Mm-hmm.

00:26:06.195 --> 00:26:10.364
You know, or what I would describe as
well, what's the, what's the verse say?

00:26:10.905 --> 00:26:11.324
Yeah, good.

00:26:11.324 --> 00:26:12.165
And wickedness.

00:26:12.165 --> 00:26:12.614
Well, yeah.

00:26:12.614 --> 00:26:16.844
Everybody knowing that goodness
is good makes wickedness.

00:26:17.145 --> 00:26:20.415
Yeah, I think I've been in
the wickedness big time.

00:26:20.594 --> 00:26:21.014
Me too.

00:26:21.495 --> 00:26:25.155
And what came to mind earlier when
you were talking about, yeah, this

00:26:25.155 --> 00:26:28.875
experience of coming up against
it and you know, of evil in the

00:26:28.875 --> 00:26:30.645
world, evil in the self, you know?

00:26:30.675 --> 00:26:32.415
'cause whether we think these
things are real or not, I guess

00:26:32.415 --> 00:26:34.935
we sometimes experience them that.

00:26:34.965 --> 00:26:39.074
Uh, I started to think about, you know,
'cause we often think about wickedness as

00:26:39.074 --> 00:26:41.685
sin and evil as related to sin and so on.

00:26:41.774 --> 00:26:45.405
Well, those of us who've had any adjacency
to Christianity at all, and I'm one of

00:26:45.405 --> 00:26:50.625
those people that believes that, uh,
many of us in, you know, in English

00:26:50.625 --> 00:26:54.885
speaking countries, uh, are unconsciously
Christian whether we realize it or not.

00:26:55.425 --> 00:26:59.324
And that this word wickedness
brings to mind the Bible and sin

00:26:59.504 --> 00:27:01.544
and clarifying my understanding of.

00:27:02.235 --> 00:27:07.095
What's, what these people thought sin
was has been very interesting to me.

00:27:07.095 --> 00:27:09.195
It was something metaphysical and magical.

00:27:09.195 --> 00:27:12.855
And growing up at Harry Krishna, there
was a lot of talk of sin, and it was this,

00:27:13.515 --> 00:27:16.395
it's this magical substance that's bad.

00:27:16.545 --> 00:27:17.235
And if you Yeah.

00:27:17.265 --> 00:27:18.825
Touch it, it's gonna get into you.

00:27:19.185 --> 00:27:19.575
Yeah.

00:27:19.575 --> 00:27:23.925
But what I now know, what I think
to be true now I'm a hundred percent

00:27:23.925 --> 00:27:28.215
sure about this, that what sin really
is, what this idea is pointing us to.

00:27:28.845 --> 00:27:32.385
Is a failure to love others as oneself.

00:27:32.805 --> 00:27:36.015
That's basically what it, because I
heard it described as the translation

00:27:36.015 --> 00:27:37.515
is really to miss the mark.

00:27:37.905 --> 00:27:38.775
Miss the mark, yes.

00:27:38.775 --> 00:27:40.665
Like an archer might miss the target.

00:27:41.055 --> 00:27:42.945
That's the sin is to miss the mark.

00:27:43.215 --> 00:27:43.635
Yes.

00:27:43.695 --> 00:27:46.245
And not in the sense that, oh, you
weren't skillful enough to pull

00:27:46.245 --> 00:27:49.455
this thing off, but that you didn't.

00:27:49.844 --> 00:27:51.465
Recognize the moment.

00:27:51.735 --> 00:27:52.185
Mm.

00:27:52.425 --> 00:27:56.834
And you failed, or, or you did
recognize the moment but didn't have the

00:27:56.834 --> 00:27:59.594
courage to, to react in the right way.

00:27:59.745 --> 00:28:00.764
Something like that.

00:28:00.854 --> 00:28:04.514
That, you know, someone asks for
your help and you are able to help

00:28:04.514 --> 00:28:08.804
and you don't, or someone says, that
thing you are doing is hurting me.

00:28:08.865 --> 00:28:10.334
Please don't do that.

00:28:10.844 --> 00:28:15.074
But you fail to heed that or, yeah.

00:28:15.074 --> 00:28:16.905
A friend calls up and they, they need.

00:28:17.655 --> 00:28:21.314
To someone to talk to and
you know, you, you, you don't

00:28:21.675 --> 00:28:22.995
manage to be there for them.

00:28:22.995 --> 00:28:26.294
That's one, that's something I've
regretted many times or being

00:28:26.294 --> 00:28:29.685
preoccupied with my own concerns
and not, not allowing that other

00:28:29.685 --> 00:28:32.774
people have concerns that are equal.

00:28:33.135 --> 00:28:33.584
Mm-hmm.

00:28:33.915 --> 00:28:34.485
To my own.

00:28:34.635 --> 00:28:37.635
But this is saying that that dichotomy
between wickedness and good is

00:28:37.635 --> 00:28:39.105
maybe a bit of an illusion anyway.

00:28:39.284 --> 00:28:39.524
Yeah.

00:28:39.524 --> 00:28:42.524
So it is saying that now it's
not hand waving it all away,

00:28:43.274 --> 00:28:44.355
so let's be careful here.

00:28:44.355 --> 00:28:44.445
Right.

00:28:44.445 --> 00:28:46.185
What's the next, let's
move on to the next line.

00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:48.120
Well, okay.

00:28:48.510 --> 00:28:49.680
We can, but I do.

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.860
I will wanna circle back for a
second for being and non being

00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:55.560
arise together hard and easy.

00:28:55.560 --> 00:28:58.140
Complete each other long and short.

00:28:58.320 --> 00:28:59.490
Shape each other.

00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:00.960
Note and voice.

00:29:01.020 --> 00:29:04.755
Make the music together before and after.

00:29:05.095 --> 00:29:06.475
Follow each other.

00:29:07.465 --> 00:29:07.755
Whoa.

00:29:08.575 --> 00:29:11.275
So that last line, I
think really clarifies.

00:29:11.879 --> 00:29:13.020
All the stuff before it.

00:29:13.080 --> 00:29:16.080
It's not a, it sounds groovy
like Ooh, before and after.

00:29:16.830 --> 00:29:21.120
Well, yeah, but think just
logically before comes before after,

00:29:21.300 --> 00:29:25.290
but after that, after, there's
the before of something else.

00:29:25.350 --> 00:29:29.760
So it's all just, you know, you've said,
oh, this thing is before that thing.

00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:31.080
Therefore that's the cause.

00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:33.780
But there were things before
that, and things before

00:29:33.780 --> 00:29:34.980
that, and things before that.

00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:37.950
Which brings us back to
goodness and wickedness.

00:29:38.550 --> 00:29:41.850
But was there anything before the big
bang though that I can't tell you?

00:29:41.850 --> 00:29:42.225
I wish.

00:29:42.905 --> 00:29:43.350
I wish I could.

00:29:43.350 --> 00:29:45.450
So that's as far back as we can go.

00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:45.900
Really?

00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:45.960
Yeah.

00:29:46.110 --> 00:29:50.520
To does Was there a before
there or There is no, before.

00:29:50.520 --> 00:29:51.180
Before that.

00:29:52.110 --> 00:29:59.040
So well, some say that you look, even if
you just, you're a total thorough going

00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:03.240
rationalist, materialist, and you accept
sort of the latest thinking in all of

00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.510
that area, that there's nothing to say.

00:30:06.840 --> 00:30:08.880
This is my current layman's understanding.

00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:15.540
There's nothing to say that before
that big bang, there was a prior.

00:30:16.320 --> 00:30:20.760
You know, com, compaction of
the universe, and then po.

00:30:21.150 --> 00:30:24.990
So it, it might've gone
crunch, poof, crunch, poof.

00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:26.460
Countless times already.

00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:27.570
Yeah, it's possible.

00:30:27.570 --> 00:30:29.820
Which would align with kind
of what the Buddhists say.

00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:30.480
It would.

00:30:30.540 --> 00:30:31.170
Very much.

00:30:31.230 --> 00:30:31.590
Yeah.

00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:35.250
You know, or the, like, this
has been going on forever, a

00:30:35.250 --> 00:30:36.810
lot longer than you realize.

00:30:36.815 --> 00:30:41.040
And, and the Hindu creation, which
is, uh, there's too much in it.

00:30:41.100 --> 00:30:42.330
I'll try and summarize.

00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:47.290
That, you know, Vishnu is
lying on a bit of snakes.

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.650
The, the snakes is his brother
and has a hundred heads and is

00:30:50.650 --> 00:30:52.420
reciting the vaders constantly.

00:30:52.420 --> 00:31:00.040
And, uh, those two, uh, joined by Lakshmi,
the goddess of Fortune, which is just.

00:31:00.105 --> 00:31:06.105
Uh, basically the female half of the,
the di you know, the divinity that the

00:31:06.105 --> 00:31:08.295
divinity contains, these opposites, right?

00:31:08.295 --> 00:31:09.405
Or these apparent opposites.

00:31:09.405 --> 00:31:11.805
They're not actually
opposite very dow thing.

00:31:11.835 --> 00:31:13.665
And that's on a bed of that.

00:31:13.665 --> 00:31:16.095
So that bed of snakes is
floating on an ocean of milk.

00:31:16.095 --> 00:31:19.095
And that ocean of milk is,
is, you know, the causal ocean

00:31:19.095 --> 00:31:20.475
from which all things arise.

00:31:21.195 --> 00:31:26.235
And Vishnu is breathing the
universes out of the pauses.

00:31:26.550 --> 00:31:32.010
Of his skin and then the universes
are getting breathed back in, in

00:31:32.010 --> 00:31:34.860
the counter breath, and that's
just happening over and over.

00:31:34.950 --> 00:31:37.110
Never really vibed with the
Hindu stuff, I'll be honest.

00:31:37.110 --> 00:31:38.340
It's a little too far out.

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:38.970
There's a lot.

00:31:39.390 --> 00:31:39.750
Yeah.

00:31:39.750 --> 00:31:43.020
I mean, even when I was in India, I'd
walk into the temples, it'd be like, whoa.

00:31:43.650 --> 00:31:44.730
There's a lot going on.

00:31:44.820 --> 00:31:49.920
Well, and I was gonna say, if you've
been raised in sort of Western culture,

00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:54.780
it will, like I had a, I had a friend
who was not particularly religious, but.

00:31:55.935 --> 00:31:58.995
There's being was raised Catholic,
but India, India struck her as

00:31:58.995 --> 00:32:04.305
like overwhelming and pagan and
like idol worship and stuff.

00:32:04.305 --> 00:32:05.115
It kind of hit them.

00:32:05.565 --> 00:32:05.835
Yeah.

00:32:05.895 --> 00:32:09.135
Stupid question maybe, but does being
a Harry Krishna make you a Hindu?

00:32:10.185 --> 00:32:12.645
Well, some Hindus would say no.

00:32:12.825 --> 00:32:13.335
Oh.

00:32:13.485 --> 00:32:13.605
Oh.

00:32:13.605 --> 00:32:14.655
So it's not a stupid question.

00:32:14.655 --> 00:32:15.765
It's a complicated question.

00:32:15.765 --> 00:32:16.275
It is.

00:32:16.335 --> 00:32:17.415
So there's.

00:32:18.030 --> 00:32:22.770
Depending on which, you know, say, so
there's Narva, there's Worship Vishnu, and

00:32:22.770 --> 00:32:25.470
there's Shiites who Wish Worship Shiva.

00:32:25.830 --> 00:32:29.400
And, uh, there's a, a
handful of Brahma worshipers.

00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.640
So those, those three, Brahma, Vishnu,
Shiva are the, like, the sort of the

00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.230
trinity, the creator, maintainer,
and destroyer of the universe.

00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:39.150
Hang on, I thought you
guys worshiped Krishna.

00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:42.300
Yeah, well, Krishna's,
uh, like considered.

00:32:43.050 --> 00:32:45.990
By Krishna followers to be
the main version of Vishnu.

00:32:46.050 --> 00:32:48.150
Like, oh, so there's all this dispute.

00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:48.270
Fuck.

00:32:48.270 --> 00:32:49.500
It's a complicated religion.

00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:51.210
So yeah, who's the real,
who's the real one?

00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:51.510
God?

00:32:51.510 --> 00:32:51.870
Right?

00:32:51.930 --> 00:32:56.280
And part of this mess has been created
by, well, you've got this polytheistic.

00:32:56.745 --> 00:32:57.105
Thing.

00:32:57.105 --> 00:32:58.335
It's got a whole bunch of gods.

00:32:58.754 --> 00:33:01.754
But then remember, this thing's
been around for thousands of years.

00:33:01.754 --> 00:33:02.655
It's not one thing.

00:33:02.655 --> 00:33:03.855
It's changed an awful lot.

00:33:03.855 --> 00:33:07.425
It's been influenced by Buddhism, it's
been influenced by Christianity, and

00:33:07.635 --> 00:33:12.435
they've tried to sort of adapt it to
a more monotheistic situation, just

00:33:12.435 --> 00:33:16.275
so to put it on a foothold, like an
equal footing with Islam, for example,

00:33:16.275 --> 00:33:18.375
which really had a big impact in India.

00:33:18.555 --> 00:33:18.825
Yeah.

00:33:19.035 --> 00:33:20.415
Um, people may not realize.

00:33:20.860 --> 00:33:29.860
And that a lot of Hindus are, uh, very
nationalistic and they see Hinduism as

00:33:29.860 --> 00:33:31.629
kind of synonymous with being Indian.

00:33:32.169 --> 00:33:38.169
And India is one at one with the concept
of being Hindu and that it's, this is an

00:33:38.169 --> 00:33:41.050
ethnic designation and not a thing you do.

00:33:41.050 --> 00:33:41.139
Right?

00:33:41.469 --> 00:33:43.090
So you are born Hindu.

00:33:43.120 --> 00:33:44.469
You are Hindu by.

00:33:45.465 --> 00:33:46.575
Having certain Yeah.

00:33:46.635 --> 00:33:48.254
Genes and looking a certain way.

00:33:48.285 --> 00:33:51.014
But something happened with the
Hari Krishna that made them dance

00:33:51.014 --> 00:33:52.815
around the streets of western cities.

00:33:52.845 --> 00:33:53.745
Well, exactly.

00:33:54.014 --> 00:33:55.245
So it just being white people.

00:33:55.305 --> 00:33:56.115
Exactly right.

00:33:56.115 --> 00:33:58.605
So, well, it's a sort of rainbow.

00:33:58.665 --> 00:34:00.405
This is this global rainbow movement.

00:34:00.405 --> 00:34:00.735
Right?

00:34:01.095 --> 00:34:05.805
But how did all these non-Jews
end up becoming Christians?

00:34:05.865 --> 00:34:06.945
It was the same sort of thing.

00:34:07.365 --> 00:34:12.975
So if Jesus, if we take the literal sort
of story, it's like Jesus is saying.

00:34:14.190 --> 00:34:18.210
Uh, look, there's a bunch of stuff
there in that Old Testament, which is

00:34:18.210 --> 00:34:21.510
not right or doesn't apply right now,
and there's a bunch of stuff in there,

00:34:21.510 --> 00:34:24.270
which is, you know, still applicable.

00:34:24.810 --> 00:34:29.429
But we need to reform this a bit, and it's
not about the point of being a proper, I.

00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:33.929
Jew is not following the dietary laws to
the letter and circumcision and all that.

00:34:34.290 --> 00:34:37.139
That's not what makes you
a good follower of God.

00:34:37.350 --> 00:34:41.340
What makes you a good follower of God is
to love one another and to give charity

00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:44.280
to the poor and you know, feed the hungry.

00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.650
That's what makes you a
good Christian, right?

00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:49.740
That's what makes you a
good, a proper Jew, right?

00:34:49.740 --> 00:34:52.050
That was what he was trying to,
he was reforming the religion.

00:34:52.810 --> 00:34:55.870
And then that meant that
membership was now open to

00:34:55.870 --> 00:34:58.330
Gentiles and to all other, and St.

00:34:58.330 --> 00:35:02.800
Paul comes along and says, right,
we're abolishing these categories, uh,

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.150
of Jew and Gentile we're abolishing.

00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:07.960
These categories of slave and
free person of man and woman even

00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:10.570
are abolished within this church.

00:35:11.740 --> 00:35:13.330
The Ians are a bit the same.

00:35:13.600 --> 00:35:18.880
Jayan comes along about five, 600 years
ago, and he says the caste system is.

00:35:19.799 --> 00:35:20.370
Not good.

00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:26.009
We are making false distinctions between
people, so he questions the car system.

00:35:26.009 --> 00:35:28.740
He says, really, we should all be equal.

00:35:29.580 --> 00:35:33.150
In the eyes of God, we, we, we
are, we can't be any other way.

00:35:33.240 --> 00:35:39.600
And he was basically kind of this bit
gender-bending and was sort of trying

00:35:39.600 --> 00:35:48.450
to abolish caste and nation and even
religious identity and abolish the gender

00:35:48.450 --> 00:35:50.880
hierarchy and stuff at the same time.

00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:51.990
And was saying.

00:35:52.245 --> 00:35:54.765
Yeah, let's build a house
that everyone can live in.

00:35:55.305 --> 00:35:55.755
Hmm.

00:35:55.815 --> 00:36:00.615
And so it becomes, so Hinduism goes on, it
hits the road, it becomes this evangelical

00:36:00.615 --> 00:36:02.444
religion after thousands of years.

00:36:02.565 --> 00:36:05.775
But then, does that mean all the other
Hindus have to recognize any of that?

00:36:05.775 --> 00:36:06.075
No.

00:36:06.390 --> 00:36:09.390
They don't, and some of them
just won't recognize it.

00:36:09.660 --> 00:36:09.690
Mm.

00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:10.380
And that's fine.

00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:10.884
That's up to them.

00:36:11.085 --> 00:36:11.245
Interesting.

00:36:11.310 --> 00:36:15.180
And look, if, if I decide to go and
become a Catholic tomorrow or whatever,

00:36:15.180 --> 00:36:18.000
just for fun, they'll, they'll be
like, Hey, sure, come to church.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.870
You're a Catholic now.

00:36:19.259 --> 00:36:23.220
But my prediction for you that, you
know, my prediction for you, Sam, is as

00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:28.140
you get older, you'll go back to your
Krishna possibly and be, get more into it.

00:36:28.770 --> 00:36:33.990
That's my, I could be wrong, but you
haven't fully renounced it, so it's still.

00:36:34.210 --> 00:36:35.440
There if you want it.

00:36:36.010 --> 00:36:39.970
Well, I feel about it the way, and
you, you're an agnostic essentially.

00:36:40.390 --> 00:36:43.390
I feel like I can't
renounce or embrace it.

00:36:43.630 --> 00:36:44.710
I'm sort of in that spot.

00:36:44.770 --> 00:36:47.200
But as you get older, you
might a few more gray hairs.

00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:48.670
You might start embracing it.

00:36:48.730 --> 00:36:52.120
I that it's entirely possible
because you were raised with it.

00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:55.150
When you're raised with something,
it's hard to gets in there.

00:36:56.160 --> 00:37:00.810
Well, you know, but it's like, can you
renounce being an Australian or can you

00:37:00.810 --> 00:37:05.190
renounce, you know, in theory you can,
you can take up another, you can get

00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:08.339
another passport and you can give up this
one and go live somewhere else and, you

00:37:08.339 --> 00:37:10.980
know, become a total expat and or can you.

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.450
You know, like you be grow
growing up an atheist, and can you

00:37:16.049 --> 00:37:18.299
fundamentally change your view on that?

00:37:18.299 --> 00:37:18.690
Yeah.

00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:19.020
Yep.

00:37:19.020 --> 00:37:21.509
You've proven that people can
change their view on that.

00:37:22.350 --> 00:37:23.880
Personally, I find, I do.

00:37:24.134 --> 00:37:29.100
I, I struggle to engage with religion
unless I feel the presence of God.

00:37:29.100 --> 00:37:32.040
So for me, that's a bit of a stumbling
block, whereas a lot of people

00:37:32.045 --> 00:37:35.670
are happy to be social, socially
religious, you know, it's like.

00:37:35.735 --> 00:37:39.095
You know, the old Jewish guy on his
deathbed and, you know, his, his

00:37:39.095 --> 00:37:42.005
uh, non-Jewish friend comes to visit
him and says, oh, well, you know,

00:37:42.005 --> 00:37:43.175
at least you have your religion.

00:37:43.175 --> 00:37:46.085
That must be a great comfort
to you at this difficult time.

00:37:46.085 --> 00:37:47.435
And he said, what are you talking about?

00:37:48.395 --> 00:37:51.125
You know, you went to Temple every week.

00:37:51.515 --> 00:37:51.695
Yeah.

00:37:51.695 --> 00:37:52.715
That's where my friends are.

00:37:53.375 --> 00:37:53.765
Yeah.

00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:56.615
And you know, go where your mates are.

00:37:56.645 --> 00:37:57.155
Absolutely.

00:37:57.155 --> 00:38:01.295
It's actually a good segue 'cause I wanted
to bring you back to being and non being.

00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:02.160
Yeah.

00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:06.029
Well, and because it makes me think of
a Joseph camp, the, my favorite quote

00:38:06.029 --> 00:38:08.040
about God by anyone is Joseph Campbell.

00:38:08.100 --> 00:38:08.160
Okay.

00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:11.760
About how God transcends all
categories, including the

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:13.320
categories of being a non being.

00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.060
What's the line in the ding?

00:38:15.270 --> 00:38:17.790
Yeah, that's very, uh,
that's very Joseph Campbell.

00:38:17.790 --> 00:38:17.940
Yeah.

00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:20.130
For being a non, being a rise together.

00:38:20.430 --> 00:38:22.470
Being a non, being a rise together.

00:38:22.470 --> 00:38:24.510
I don't fully understand that, Sam.

00:38:24.510 --> 00:38:25.230
I won't lie.

00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.890
I've only got my creative arts
degree from Melbourne University.

00:38:28.890 --> 00:38:29.825
I'm not an expert.

00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:30.450
Okay.

00:38:30.540 --> 00:38:36.450
Well, we didn't Being and non being
arise together, what is non being Well.

00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:39.990
All the people that don't
exist anymore, but did once.

00:38:39.990 --> 00:38:41.160
That's one example.

00:38:41.370 --> 00:38:46.529
Okay, so to use a perhaps a bit of a
cliched Zen example, but I think it works.

00:38:46.740 --> 00:38:50.520
What makes this a fist
versus an open hand, right?

00:38:50.520 --> 00:38:52.560
So where does the fist go?

00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:54.660
When I open my hand, did it ever exist?

00:38:54.660 --> 00:38:58.830
Is it just, you know, or
Gregory Bateson said You don't

00:38:58.830 --> 00:39:00.210
have four fingers and a thumb.

00:39:00.240 --> 00:39:02.580
You've got five relationships.

00:39:03.660 --> 00:39:06.419
You know, you don't
have grass and a horse.

00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:07.919
These two things are together.

00:39:08.310 --> 00:39:08.730
Yeah.

00:39:08.730 --> 00:39:12.000
You know, and everything's relationships.

00:39:12.450 --> 00:39:12.990
So.

00:39:13.830 --> 00:39:17.310
You know, or to get, you know, so this,
this, I'm noticing this text brings

00:39:17.310 --> 00:39:19.740
you to like a 3:00 AM conversation.

00:39:19.890 --> 00:39:20.400
Well, yeah.

00:39:20.430 --> 00:39:21.030
Constantly.

00:39:21.030 --> 00:39:25.020
It's like the 3:00 AM coming
down off a drug conversation.

00:39:25.020 --> 00:39:25.650
Well, totally.

00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:26.760
Like, what does it all mean, man?

00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.340
Well, it get, well, it get, it
gets you to an existential place.

00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:29.520
Yeah.

00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:31.020
And I, I think it does that on purpose.

00:39:31.050 --> 00:39:31.200
Yeah.

00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:34.500
Just does it over and over and
like each line, it's, it's not

00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:36.300
abolishing, it's not saying that.

00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:38.980
There's no objective reality to anything.

00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:40.690
It's all just definitions, man.

00:39:40.750 --> 00:39:42.970
It's, it's not quite as loose as that.

00:39:43.180 --> 00:39:46.450
So this thing about everybody
knowing that goodness is good makes

00:39:46.450 --> 00:39:49.299
wickedness, I feel like we need to go
back to that in order to go forward.

00:39:49.660 --> 00:39:53.350
'cause what that's saying to me, what
that's saying is everybody thinks they

00:39:53.350 --> 00:39:58.840
know what doing the right thing is,
but do they, it might be a much more

00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:04.035
difficult question than we would care
to admit, or we might walk around going.

00:40:05.085 --> 00:40:06.134
I'm a good person.

00:40:06.345 --> 00:40:07.424
I just did that thing.

00:40:07.605 --> 00:40:08.625
That was a good thing.

00:40:08.685 --> 00:40:09.645
I'm sure of it.

00:40:09.944 --> 00:40:10.935
I'm a good person.

00:40:11.085 --> 00:40:11.504
Easy.

00:40:11.745 --> 00:40:11.984
Yeah.

00:40:12.044 --> 00:40:12.855
I think, yeah.

00:40:12.884 --> 00:40:14.055
It's not easy though, is it?

00:40:14.415 --> 00:40:18.075
What I'm finding with this text is
if I could fully rock it and I can't,

00:40:18.734 --> 00:40:21.254
I would be an incredibly wise human.

00:40:21.335 --> 00:40:24.695
Yeah, I'll admit to feeling the
same frustration at times, and I,

00:40:24.695 --> 00:40:27.905
I don't think I can claim to be
understanding it any better than you.

00:40:27.995 --> 00:40:31.025
I do think that the text presents
frustrations, and I think that

00:40:31.025 --> 00:40:32.285
that is part of its method.

00:40:32.285 --> 00:40:35.435
Yeah, it's, it's sort of like,
hurts my brain, but in a good way.

00:40:35.435 --> 00:40:39.755
Like I'm scratching an each Well, what's
the next, well, okay, so, so look.

00:40:40.350 --> 00:40:45.600
In order for what it's saying is that
people having to me like we're so know,

00:40:45.630 --> 00:40:47.850
we're so certain that we exist and we do.

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:50.370
And one of the, I'm not one of these
people that says this is all just

00:40:50.370 --> 00:40:53.760
an illusion, but also we're all
really, really, really aware that

00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:55.680
we're not gonna exist at some point.

00:40:55.950 --> 00:40:56.160
Yeah.

00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:57.090
Other than a memory.

00:40:57.120 --> 00:40:57.510
Right.

00:40:57.510 --> 00:41:00.780
That is the great burden of
human life is the recognition

00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:01.920
that it ends at some point.

00:41:02.310 --> 00:41:05.430
So the fact of being here is defined.

00:41:06.080 --> 00:41:08.720
By the non-being that
lies before and after.

00:41:08.810 --> 00:41:09.350
Yeah.

00:41:09.350 --> 00:41:09.650
Okay.

00:41:09.650 --> 00:41:14.960
Now I know what non-being is and the
non-being gives meaning to the life,

00:41:15.049 --> 00:41:16.970
and life gives meaning to the non-being.

00:41:16.970 --> 00:41:20.390
Unfortunately, it, the, the,
the love for you, you have

00:41:20.390 --> 00:41:22.310
for your children illuminates.

00:41:23.475 --> 00:41:25.605
They're non-existence, you know?

00:41:25.605 --> 00:41:25.935
Yeah.

00:41:25.935 --> 00:41:30.105
And parents will often wonder what their
life would be like without those children.

00:41:30.135 --> 00:41:30.405
Yeah.

00:41:30.465 --> 00:41:32.925
You know, if it wasn't for you
to be easier, if it wasn't for

00:41:32.925 --> 00:41:34.125
you, my life would mean nothing.

00:41:34.845 --> 00:41:35.205
Yeah.

00:41:35.625 --> 00:41:37.635
All those statements might
be true at different times.

00:41:38.055 --> 00:41:42.345
And, and the same goes for, you know,
like, oh, my glass of water is empty.

00:41:43.185 --> 00:41:47.115
Uh, it was full before, and I'm, I'm not
trying to be far out with this, but like,

00:41:47.115 --> 00:41:51.495
the fact of the, the glass having water
in it to a certain kind of person, I look

00:41:51.495 --> 00:41:53.265
at that and go, well, it'll be empty.

00:41:53.445 --> 00:41:57.134
Once it's fulfilled its purpose and
then, then its purpose is to be empty

00:41:57.134 --> 00:41:59.745
and to be filled and, you know, so.

00:42:00.555 --> 00:42:03.855
I think, I think you should read some
more because I think really Sam, to

00:42:03.855 --> 00:42:07.210
ever get through an episode on, on the
doubted Jing, we have to keep rolling.

00:42:07.399 --> 00:42:07.690
Yeah.

00:42:07.690 --> 00:42:10.245
We have to keep rolling and
let things wash over people.

00:42:10.274 --> 00:42:10.845
Okay.

00:42:10.850 --> 00:42:12.705
'cause we read three
translations at the start.

00:42:13.290 --> 00:42:15.870
They could be still washing over
people half an hour later and

00:42:15.870 --> 00:42:17.819
we're, we're trying to line by line.

00:42:17.970 --> 00:42:21.600
Alright, so I just don't think we
can, I think every line is an hour.

00:42:21.629 --> 00:42:26.279
So to reorient ourselves, so far we've
had those two chunk chunks up the top.

00:42:26.279 --> 00:42:27.750
The one about beauty and ugliness.

00:42:27.750 --> 00:42:30.600
Then the next chunk is about
goodness and wickedness.

00:42:30.750 --> 00:42:33.629
And then we've got this chunk
being and non being, and the

00:42:33.629 --> 00:42:35.189
other heap of other stuff.

00:42:35.189 --> 00:42:36.629
Basically, it just gives you a list.

00:42:37.365 --> 00:42:42.105
Being a non, being a rise together,
hard and easy, complete each other,

00:42:42.825 --> 00:42:45.195
long and short, shape each other.

00:42:45.255 --> 00:42:46.275
Note and voice.

00:42:46.275 --> 00:42:49.245
Make the music together before and after.

00:42:49.245 --> 00:42:50.325
Follow each other.

00:42:50.505 --> 00:42:52.365
So just grab any one of those, I guess.

00:42:52.485 --> 00:42:53.535
Yeah, but keep going.

00:42:54.105 --> 00:42:55.215
Okay, well that's a chunk.

00:42:55.575 --> 00:42:55.905
Yeah.

00:42:55.965 --> 00:42:59.115
So if we're gonna line by
line, okay, well, okay.

00:42:59.115 --> 00:43:00.165
We can finish it out.

00:43:00.345 --> 00:43:04.305
That's why the wise soul does, without
doing teachers, without talking,

00:43:04.755 --> 00:43:06.525
the things of this world exist.

00:43:07.485 --> 00:43:07.515
I.

00:43:07.515 --> 00:43:07.590
They are.

00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:13.200
You can't refuse them to bear and
not to own, to act and not lay

00:43:13.200 --> 00:43:16.350
claim to do the work and let it go.

00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.350
For just letting it go
is what makes it stay.

00:43:19.620 --> 00:43:21.000
So it's in, wow.

00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:22.140
Is that the end of it?

00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:22.801
Yes, that's the end.

00:43:22.830 --> 00:43:23.130
Okay.

00:43:23.130 --> 00:43:27.840
So the two things I loved in there
were teach without talking and

00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:29.490
doing the work and letting it go.

00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:30.330
Yeah.

00:43:30.450 --> 00:43:30.840
Like.

00:43:31.305 --> 00:43:31.424
Yeah.

00:43:31.424 --> 00:43:35.025
People rephrase that shit all the
time doing the work and letting

00:43:35.025 --> 00:43:39.194
it go and, and make money by
selling that as a like an idea.

00:43:39.194 --> 00:43:39.525
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:39.555 --> 00:43:40.935
Like trust the process.

00:43:40.964 --> 00:43:41.325
Yes.

00:43:41.355 --> 00:43:46.785
And like fame, like football teams that
win, premierships focus on the process.

00:43:46.995 --> 00:43:50.055
The cats and the cats
did a lot of meditation.

00:43:50.730 --> 00:43:53.220
In the lead up to their
comeback from the wilderness.

00:43:53.730 --> 00:43:54.270
Yeah.

00:43:54.270 --> 00:43:58.380
I think a lot of American football too
has been focused on trust the process

00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:02.580
and let go of the outcome because it's
coming straight out of what, 400 bc.

00:44:02.640 --> 00:44:02.940
Okay.

00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:06.390
Well, and let's use this example from
school and then teach without talking.

00:44:06.569 --> 00:44:06.930
Yeah.

00:44:06.990 --> 00:44:07.890
I mean, you're a teacher.

00:44:07.890 --> 00:44:09.420
I want to hear your opinion on that.

00:44:09.509 --> 00:44:13.049
I think let's do those two and then finish
up, because otherwise we're gonna have a

00:44:13.049 --> 00:44:15.509
too long an episode, but well, luckily.

00:44:15.915 --> 00:44:15.975
Yeah.

00:44:16.515 --> 00:44:19.845
Any concept in this verse
illuminates all the other concepts.

00:44:19.845 --> 00:44:20.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:20.654 --> 00:44:22.755
So fortunately you can talk about
any one of them because they're

00:44:22.755 --> 00:44:23.955
all part of the same truth.

00:44:24.165 --> 00:44:27.765
Well, let's talk about, you were
starting to talk about what's the

00:44:27.765 --> 00:44:29.205
line about trusting the process.

00:44:29.235 --> 00:44:31.365
Well do the work and let it go.

00:44:31.365 --> 00:44:33.255
Basically, do the work and let it go.

00:44:33.315 --> 00:44:36.555
Well, she says, well, it goes
hand in hand with this other bit.

00:44:37.095 --> 00:44:38.475
To bear and not to own.

00:44:38.475 --> 00:44:40.990
So that which you carry, just because
it's in your hands doesn't mean Yeah.

00:44:41.025 --> 00:44:42.225
Doesn't mean you truly own it.

00:44:42.225 --> 00:44:42.615
Right.

00:44:42.975 --> 00:44:46.305
And to do the, uh, to
act and not lay claim.

00:44:46.425 --> 00:44:51.915
So, oh, I did this thing, therefore I
own the results of this action, which

00:44:51.915 --> 00:44:53.655
we all want to do when it goes well.

00:44:53.685 --> 00:44:56.865
Yeah, but what, but what about, what
happens, Joe, when we do something

00:44:56.865 --> 00:44:58.275
and the result is not so good?

00:44:58.275 --> 00:44:58.695
Yeah.

00:44:58.725 --> 00:45:02.085
We're not in a hurry to lay claim to
the results of that action then, are we?

00:45:02.085 --> 00:45:02.385
Yeah.

00:45:02.745 --> 00:45:03.470
So to act.

00:45:04.125 --> 00:45:05.084
And not lay claim.

00:45:05.325 --> 00:45:08.924
And then it's exactly the same statement
in my mind to do the work and let it go.

00:45:09.375 --> 00:45:09.765
Yeah.

00:45:09.915 --> 00:45:11.145
It's just a recognition of reality.

00:45:11.145 --> 00:45:11.895
You don't own it.

00:45:12.104 --> 00:45:13.035
You don't own it.

00:45:13.365 --> 00:45:13.785
Yeah.

00:45:13.785 --> 00:45:15.524
Don't own anything like, yeah.

00:45:15.524 --> 00:45:16.604
Sorry, everyone I.

00:45:17.055 --> 00:45:23.175
You just don't, and that's, I've learned
a lot about that doing this podcast.

00:45:23.235 --> 00:45:23.475
Mm.

00:45:23.865 --> 00:45:26.325
Because I'll let the
listeners in on a secret.

00:45:26.955 --> 00:45:27.105
Mm.

00:45:27.105 --> 00:45:27.285
Secret.

00:45:27.375 --> 00:45:31.995
We don't have millions of listeners
secret, and we don't ha get any money.

00:45:32.115 --> 00:45:33.735
And we don't own those listeners either.

00:45:33.945 --> 00:45:39.855
But the process, recording
it, talking to you Yeah.

00:45:40.095 --> 00:45:43.095
And then editing it, the process.

00:45:43.485 --> 00:45:46.665
Is very gratifying and
meaningful in itself.

00:45:46.695 --> 00:45:49.695
And then if someone writes to us
and said, I listened to it, it's

00:45:49.695 --> 00:45:51.465
like, wow, that's like amazing.

00:45:51.465 --> 00:45:52.665
But I've already let go.

00:45:52.725 --> 00:45:53.565
I've already let go.

00:45:53.715 --> 00:45:55.155
Like I've already let go.

00:45:55.485 --> 00:45:55.695
Yeah.

00:45:55.725 --> 00:45:57.915
And it's a bonus.

00:45:58.095 --> 00:45:58.185
Yes.

00:45:58.185 --> 00:45:59.205
But that's very different.

00:45:59.205 --> 00:46:02.385
When I was young and trying to make
films, there's a lot of ego in it.

00:46:02.445 --> 00:46:02.775
Yeah.

00:46:02.775 --> 00:46:06.735
What really mattered was that one time
I had a pack, cinema Incredible and

00:46:06.735 --> 00:46:10.635
everyone singing my praises, which was
the dream that I had imagined for myself.

00:46:11.145 --> 00:46:12.705
And eventually it happened.

00:46:12.785 --> 00:46:15.754
Yeah, but it was all about the ego.

00:46:15.815 --> 00:46:17.555
But it didn't fill the
unfillable hole, did it?

00:46:17.975 --> 00:46:18.605
No.

00:46:18.605 --> 00:46:21.725
I had to go away and work on other things.

00:46:21.725 --> 00:46:22.475
You know what I mean?

00:46:22.475 --> 00:46:22.990
Like mm-hmm.

00:46:23.670 --> 00:46:27.450
I was still drinking and taking drugs and
doing all that at that stage of my life.

00:46:27.509 --> 00:46:28.200
Your life's work.

00:46:28.200 --> 00:46:31.109
So your true life's work
you hadn't recognized yet.

00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:31.740
Thats right.

00:46:31.740 --> 00:46:32.670
Yeah, maybe.

00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:33.899
But I got the glory.

00:46:33.899 --> 00:46:36.839
And the glory didn't, yeah,
the glory didn't fill the void.

00:46:36.839 --> 00:46:37.290
You're right.

00:46:37.319 --> 00:46:40.950
Lawrence Mooney has all the great
line about pe uh, and I'm there at the

00:46:40.950 --> 00:46:44.160
bar sinking another one, and people
are queueing up to tell me how good

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:45.930
it is and I can't get enough of it.

00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:48.120
I mean, I literally
can't get enough of it.

00:46:48.630 --> 00:46:51.570
People can tell me all day and
I'll still want to hear it more.

00:46:51.810 --> 00:46:55.050
'cause it never fills the
whole, the unfillable void.

00:46:56.130 --> 00:46:57.720
And he's like his whole life.

00:46:58.185 --> 00:47:03.645
He has been confronting the void
with comedic results and failing

00:47:03.645 --> 00:47:04.940
to confront the void at times.

00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:05.180
Yeah.

00:47:05.325 --> 00:47:09.435
With tragic results in his own
life and that he's lived in terror

00:47:09.945 --> 00:47:11.985
and in comfort of this truth.

00:47:12.045 --> 00:47:16.755
And what the Dao is trying to just
do is just tell us it's not that it's

00:47:16.755 --> 00:47:18.675
gonna be okay in some false sense.

00:47:19.065 --> 00:47:24.944
But just sooner or later we'll accept
that this is the, this is the fact,

00:47:24.975 --> 00:47:27.045
you know, that you can't hold onto it.

00:47:27.465 --> 00:47:29.505
And what about teaching without talking?

00:47:30.015 --> 00:47:33.225
Well, I think that's very
true because well, okay.

00:47:33.225 --> 00:47:37.005
And it relates to the, the football
is not thinking about the outcome.

00:47:37.005 --> 00:47:37.245
Right.

00:47:37.245 --> 00:47:40.965
Or the tennis player not thinking about
the outcome of the shot, the golfer.

00:47:41.475 --> 00:47:43.424
Because what happens if you think
about the outcome, Joe, right?

00:47:43.424 --> 00:47:44.174
You're a sport ho.

00:47:44.174 --> 00:47:45.825
You can illuminate this for us.

00:47:45.915 --> 00:47:49.154
I think sport's a really important and
powerful example of a lot of this stuff.

00:47:49.634 --> 00:47:52.305
If you're thinking about
the result, what happens?

00:47:52.575 --> 00:47:56.025
Well, you would take your mind
off your technique and then what?

00:47:56.265 --> 00:47:59.085
And you're imagining where the
ball's going to be instead of

00:47:59.145 --> 00:48:00.555
where the ball actually is.

00:48:00.645 --> 00:48:00.915
Yes.

00:48:01.365 --> 00:48:04.815
So you can tank it just
by being in your head.

00:48:05.205 --> 00:48:05.625
Yeah.

00:48:05.685 --> 00:48:08.715
And when you really get in your
head, it's called choking, right?

00:48:08.805 --> 00:48:09.165
Yeah.

00:48:09.345 --> 00:48:14.655
Choking is a profound psychological
phenomena, which has been studied

00:48:15.255 --> 00:48:19.125
a lot because it, you know, we
think it's very, very, very real.

00:48:19.185 --> 00:48:21.555
And the brain, yeah, the brain locks up.

00:48:22.005 --> 00:48:25.485
It ha, so you call it panic,
call it freezing, call it a, you

00:48:25.485 --> 00:48:27.075
know, anxiety, overthinking it.

00:48:27.435 --> 00:48:31.425
Whatever the case, but people will
find themselves, musicians, sports

00:48:31.425 --> 00:48:34.845
people, comedians, you know, lots
of these performance contexts.

00:48:34.845 --> 00:48:36.015
Teachers will choke.

00:48:36.135 --> 00:48:40.215
Like, yeah, it's happened and,
but surely when you are teaching,

00:48:40.395 --> 00:48:41.985
you're using a lot of talking.

00:48:41.985 --> 00:48:45.045
I do use words, right, because
you've got a lot of words.

00:48:45.105 --> 00:48:45.255
Yeah.

00:48:45.255 --> 00:48:48.645
And well, and you've gotta direct
people verbally, but the best teaching,

00:48:48.645 --> 00:48:50.505
so to illuminate this concept, right?

00:48:50.505 --> 00:48:54.075
The reason I keep mentioning choking
and the performance anxiety and

00:48:54.075 --> 00:48:55.605
this stuff, because it, it, it.

00:48:56.025 --> 00:48:59.685
Has a, a very important place in teaching.

00:49:00.225 --> 00:49:04.515
You don't want your students to be in
this place of being very self-conscious

00:49:04.515 --> 00:49:06.105
about their performance, right?

00:49:06.525 --> 00:49:11.235
So just like the athlete, you need
to be in the moment, mind fully

00:49:11.235 --> 00:49:12.645
on what you're doing right then.

00:49:13.005 --> 00:49:14.835
Not on the outcome.

00:49:14.865 --> 00:49:15.015
Yeah.

00:49:15.015 --> 00:49:16.095
The mark you're gonna get.

00:49:16.125 --> 00:49:17.115
That's the wrong way.

00:49:17.505 --> 00:49:23.565
And unfortunately, education too
often encourages or forces us into

00:49:23.625 --> 00:49:25.845
being overly mindful of the result.

00:49:25.905 --> 00:49:27.645
And I think that that is
the enemy of learning.

00:49:27.645 --> 00:49:27.675
I.

00:49:28.420 --> 00:49:32.140
And in the same way, words are an
important instructional medium.

00:49:32.350 --> 00:49:35.800
It's true, very hard to get on
in the classroom without them.

00:49:36.430 --> 00:49:41.375
However, when the student is fully
engaged in the task and the, the, the

00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:45.040
learning is happening in their brain,
they don't need you to be saying anything.

00:49:45.250 --> 00:49:45.670
Mm-hmm.

00:49:46.150 --> 00:49:49.030
So you're trying, and in fact,
it's gonna be counterproductive.

00:49:49.690 --> 00:49:52.300
And if you speak at that
moment, there's a, there's a.

00:49:52.665 --> 00:49:54.825
Danger, you're gonna knock
them out of the flow.

00:49:54.855 --> 00:49:55.815
That's bad.

00:49:55.875 --> 00:49:59.895
If you do any talking in the
classroom, the only purpose should be.

00:50:00.359 --> 00:50:01.830
To get to the doing.

00:50:02.339 --> 00:50:04.830
So sometimes you have to set up the doing.

00:50:05.009 --> 00:50:06.240
Why are we doing this?

00:50:06.359 --> 00:50:07.319
What's the method?

00:50:07.770 --> 00:50:07.980
Right?

00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.190
So the why and the way, you gotta try
and set that up, but then you cut.

00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:12.810
But not, that's just words, isn't it?

00:50:13.049 --> 00:50:15.720
You, you discover the why
and the way through doing.

00:50:15.779 --> 00:50:16.620
Yeah, yeah.

00:50:16.740 --> 00:50:19.560
Teaching you make the case in words,
and then you make it with deeds.

00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:22.259
Teaching without talking
reminds me of border's.

00:50:22.259 --> 00:50:23.040
Famous lesson.

00:50:23.040 --> 00:50:23.910
Do you know about that one?

00:50:24.089 --> 00:50:24.450
Go on.

00:50:25.020 --> 00:50:27.299
He just, he had all the disciples there.

00:50:27.375 --> 00:50:27.435
Yeah.

00:50:27.975 --> 00:50:29.805
And he just held up a flower.

00:50:30.915 --> 00:50:31.215
Yeah.

00:50:32.175 --> 00:50:34.005
And apparently one person.

00:50:34.185 --> 00:50:34.365
Yeah.

00:50:34.425 --> 00:50:34.875
Got it.

00:50:35.055 --> 00:50:35.385
Yeah.

00:50:35.385 --> 00:50:37.665
Everyone else was like,
achieved enlightenment.

00:50:37.665 --> 00:50:38.235
What the fuck?

00:50:38.235 --> 00:50:39.255
Buddha's lost the plot.

00:50:39.825 --> 00:50:40.275
Yeah.

00:50:40.275 --> 00:50:41.445
I want be that level.

00:50:41.445 --> 00:50:45.855
I want to be that one guy in the crowd
going, yeah, man, ah, fucking flower.

00:50:45.915 --> 00:50:46.695
Yeah, man.

00:50:46.755 --> 00:50:48.375
Finally stop talking.

00:50:48.585 --> 00:50:50.025
Just showing us the flower, you know?

00:50:50.205 --> 00:50:50.986
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:50.991 --> 00:50:52.665
Or, or you know, the sermon on the mount.

00:50:53.325 --> 00:50:55.904
You know, consider the
lilies of the field.

00:50:56.235 --> 00:50:59.085
You know, it's like one of
the most sort of weird lines

00:50:59.085 --> 00:51:00.435
and it, it doesn't make sense.

00:51:00.435 --> 00:51:00.585
You know?

00:51:00.585 --> 00:51:02.595
It's like they work not, you know.

00:51:02.595 --> 00:51:02.895
Yeah.

00:51:02.985 --> 00:51:05.715
Like is he saying like, oh,
it's all just happening.

00:51:05.715 --> 00:51:06.945
It's just happening man.

00:51:07.005 --> 00:51:08.835
It's all just happening
from the Big Bang to now.

00:51:08.835 --> 00:51:10.875
Jesus is saying what I
was just saying before.

00:51:10.904 --> 00:51:11.654
Yeah, that's true.

00:51:11.654 --> 00:51:14.925
And there's something very doost about
parts of the Sermon on the Mount.

00:51:15.045 --> 00:51:15.375
Yeah.

00:51:15.404 --> 00:51:19.575
But it's also this thing of
like, the talking is not the

00:51:19.575 --> 00:51:21.884
doing we, but we mistake.

00:51:22.230 --> 00:51:26.190
The names for the things themselves and
Dow's very on about that kind of stuff.

00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:30.690
It's not saying you can succeed
as a teacher without words, but

00:51:30.810 --> 00:51:33.180
how do you get to the result
with the least amount of words?

00:51:33.180 --> 00:51:36.330
That's something you should always
be trying to think of as a teacher,

00:51:36.870 --> 00:51:39.330
because there's so many kids
that just for starters, they're

00:51:39.330 --> 00:51:44.100
gonna run out of attention very
quickly if, if you talk others.

00:51:44.250 --> 00:51:47.880
If you're doing a good job with the
chat, others might be entranced.

00:51:48.149 --> 00:51:51.390
And they're, it's really going in and
they're getting something from the words.

00:51:51.390 --> 00:51:52.080
They're enjoying it.

00:51:52.080 --> 00:51:55.170
They're in the flow of that, and
you're holding some space and

00:51:55.170 --> 00:51:56.549
they're able to sit in that space.

00:51:56.700 --> 00:51:59.730
Others, meanwhile aren't sitting in
that space, so you're leaving them out.

00:52:00.299 --> 00:52:05.910
But more importantly, when the, when the
student is held in the Master's words,

00:52:06.180 --> 00:52:08.339
they're not holding their own mastery.

00:52:08.370 --> 00:52:08.399
Mm.

00:52:08.399 --> 00:52:10.440
They're not holding it in their own hands.

00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.440
And that's what Buddha was trying
to get the students to like.

00:52:13.935 --> 00:52:17.475
The flower is just an interesting
object in itself, and it has, you

00:52:17.475 --> 00:52:19.305
know, in theory has no purpose right.

00:52:19.305 --> 00:52:21.134
Other than to pull, you know?

00:52:21.134 --> 00:52:21.645
Yes.

00:52:21.645 --> 00:52:24.915
But if I realize that I'm not
separate from the flower, yeah.

00:52:25.515 --> 00:52:29.865
I'm not over here and the flower's not
over there, and Buddha's not over there

00:52:29.865 --> 00:52:31.995
and behind the flower, it's all just one.

00:52:32.205 --> 00:52:32.384
Yeah.

00:52:32.955 --> 00:52:34.335
Thing in the present moment.

00:52:34.365 --> 00:52:34.695
Yes.

00:52:34.695 --> 00:52:36.345
Then I reach enlightenment.

00:52:36.495 --> 00:52:36.795
Yes.

00:52:36.795 --> 00:52:39.345
That's how I would have enlightenment
if the border showed me a flower.

00:52:39.405 --> 00:52:39.825
Yes.

00:52:39.825 --> 00:52:42.675
And the, and this of course, and
of course the simple beauty of it.

00:52:42.705 --> 00:52:43.065
Yes.

00:52:43.185 --> 00:52:44.985
And you are not sitting there going, okay.

00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:47.850
When's Buddha going to drop the bars?

00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:49.230
When's Buddha gonna spit the fire?

00:52:49.230 --> 00:52:50.850
When's Buddha gonna make it happen for me?

00:52:51.510 --> 00:52:51.690
Yeah.

00:52:51.690 --> 00:52:54.360
And that's, and that's the thing, like
any therapist will tell you, you know,

00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:57.690
oh, the patient is waiting for me to
make it happen for them, but it, it's

00:52:57.690 --> 00:53:01.680
not going to like they, that's the
great disillusionment you have to have.

00:53:02.080 --> 00:53:04.360
And the DAOs not trying to disillusion us.

00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:07.810
It's trying to get us to like
the good thing, you know?

00:53:07.990 --> 00:53:08.259
Yeah.

00:53:08.259 --> 00:53:11.500
I think it's upbeat, I think it's
a positive thing in to put into

00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:14.860
your life, but, but it is inviting
us to drop certain illusions.

00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:15.220
Yes.

00:53:15.279 --> 00:53:17.140
I, I find I'm enjoying these.

00:53:17.140 --> 00:53:19.779
This is the second one of these we've
done, Sam, and I am enjoying them.

00:53:19.810 --> 00:53:22.390
'cause it does hurt my
brain and in a good way.

00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:22.540
Yeah.

00:53:22.870 --> 00:53:25.299
But I think I need to, uh, I
think we need to wrap it up.

00:53:25.305 --> 00:53:25.525
Mm-hmm.

00:53:25.770 --> 00:53:26.730
I need a coffee.

00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:27.480
I need Me too.

00:53:27.540 --> 00:53:28.080
Yeah.

00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:30.780
And you know, we're at my place and
I've got the really good coffee machine.

00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:31.110
It's true.

00:53:31.110 --> 00:53:32.430
We don't need to go and get one.

00:53:32.430 --> 00:53:33.181
Yeah, yeah.

00:53:33.210 --> 00:53:35.100
So why don't we leave it there for today.

00:53:35.100 --> 00:53:36.509
We got through the whole verse.

00:53:36.509 --> 00:53:36.570
Yeah.

00:53:36.600 --> 00:53:39.210
We, we love let you have
the three translations.

00:53:39.270 --> 00:53:45.120
I do think for me, maybe not for you,
maybe for the audience, it is a bit more

00:53:45.150 --> 00:53:47.130
about wash, letting things wash over.

00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:47.850
Yes.

00:53:47.850 --> 00:53:48.870
Because yeah.

00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.130
I do think line by line, I could
do an hour on each line, but I

00:53:53.130 --> 00:53:58.110
don't know then that might not
be very doo No, it, it isn't.

00:53:58.200 --> 00:54:01.200
But on the other hand, you do
have to spend time with the ideas

00:54:01.200 --> 00:54:02.460
and you do have to try them out.

00:54:02.670 --> 00:54:07.740
You have to, you have to feel the ideas,
like try and, yeah, I'm feeling it, man.

00:54:07.740 --> 00:54:11.865
I, I'd have to listen back to think
to hear if I made any sense, but,

00:54:11.870 --> 00:54:14.820
but you got, you gotta, you'll
like try examples out in your head.

00:54:14.825 --> 00:54:15.509
Yeah, yeah.

00:54:15.509 --> 00:54:17.250
Like sort of, you gotta
turn it around and like.

00:54:17.610 --> 00:54:20.580
You're not looking for the
example that just nails it.

00:54:20.610 --> 00:54:24.990
What you're doing is observing what
happens as you observe the ideas

00:54:24.990 --> 00:54:28.800
and find the examples and, but
the best illustration I found for

00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.650
these concepts actually was visual.

00:54:31.650 --> 00:54:34.590
And as a filmmaker, former
filmmaker, you'd dep appreciate this.

00:54:35.430 --> 00:54:37.080
I'll, I'll dig up the
video for the show notes.

00:54:37.080 --> 00:54:39.450
This is Guy on YouTube that just.

00:54:40.305 --> 00:54:44.265
Took a verse and then just shot some.

00:54:44.835 --> 00:54:48.735
Just shot some nice motion in a forest.

00:54:49.080 --> 00:54:50.700
At either sun up or Sundown.

00:54:50.730 --> 00:54:51.060
Yeah.

00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:52.620
And there's all these light and shadows.

00:54:52.680 --> 00:54:52.950
Yeah.

00:54:52.950 --> 00:54:54.870
And it just looks cool as hell.

00:54:54.870 --> 00:54:55.799
But it's so simple.

00:54:55.859 --> 00:54:56.160
Yeah.

00:54:56.220 --> 00:54:58.379
And it just illustrates
the idea so beautifully.

00:54:58.410 --> 00:54:59.189
That makes sense.

00:54:59.250 --> 00:55:00.270
In a wordless way.

00:55:00.330 --> 00:55:00.660
Yes.

00:55:00.689 --> 00:55:01.950
Words are just there.

00:55:02.040 --> 00:55:03.359
Well, we're the word guys.

00:55:03.390 --> 00:55:03.569
Yeah.

00:55:03.600 --> 00:55:04.859
'cause we've got a podcast.

00:55:05.100 --> 00:55:05.220
Yeah.

00:55:05.250 --> 00:55:06.959
So we have to use our words.

00:55:07.020 --> 00:55:07.709
Exactly.

00:55:07.770 --> 00:55:11.040
And we only started the podcast
because we had too many words.

00:55:11.850 --> 00:55:12.899
Overflowing with them.

00:55:12.930 --> 00:55:15.930
Oh, just an update on the
law of the podcast too, Sam.

00:55:15.990 --> 00:55:16.259
Ooh.

00:55:17.009 --> 00:55:18.629
Remember when we first met?

00:55:18.990 --> 00:55:19.350
Yes.

00:55:19.470 --> 00:55:20.430
Three years ago.

00:55:20.430 --> 00:55:22.200
Not first met, but first reconnected.

00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:22.470
Yes.

00:55:22.830 --> 00:55:25.169
And I was really struggling
to get over a breakup.

00:55:25.169 --> 00:55:28.919
Very struggling to this day when
I wouldn't stop talking about it.

00:55:29.160 --> 00:55:31.259
To this day, when I drive down my street.

00:55:31.620 --> 00:55:34.920
I'm worried I'm gonna see her
car at my neighbor's house.

00:55:35.670 --> 00:55:36.060
Why?

00:55:36.630 --> 00:55:41.790
Because in a, in a theoretical
universe, it's possible that even

00:55:41.790 --> 00:55:45.840
though that neighbor is like 60
years old, he somehow would've

00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.970
hooked up with that ex-girlfriend.

00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.300
Wow.

00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:51.250
Dunno how through a
dating app or something.

00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.009
Not sure my, my brain's not
telling me that I'm twist of fate.

00:55:54.130 --> 00:55:54.250
Sure.

00:55:54.250 --> 00:55:57.670
It's just showing me the intrusive
thought of her car parked out

00:55:57.670 --> 00:55:59.650
the front of my friend's house.

00:55:59.680 --> 00:55:59.950
Yeah.

00:56:00.009 --> 00:56:01.150
Who's done Nothing wrong?

00:56:01.990 --> 00:56:02.950
No, that was the link.

00:56:02.950 --> 00:56:03.610
That was the link.

00:56:03.610 --> 00:56:04.030
Sam.

00:56:04.180 --> 00:56:04.690
I love this.

00:56:04.720 --> 00:56:08.890
We went there and inspected it
when he wasn't there as maybe

00:56:08.890 --> 00:56:09.965
somewhere for her to live.

00:56:10.240 --> 00:56:10.420
I see.

00:56:10.420 --> 00:56:14.620
And then coincidentally, I ended
up living on the same street.

00:56:15.190 --> 00:56:17.560
So, but because there's a potential link.

00:56:18.225 --> 00:56:20.655
As in, she asked him,
can I live at your house?

00:56:20.655 --> 00:56:21.615
And he said, no.

00:56:21.825 --> 00:56:22.635
It's there forever.

00:56:23.055 --> 00:56:23.895
Potentially.

00:56:24.165 --> 00:56:24.375
Yeah.

00:56:24.435 --> 00:56:28.935
Years later they track each other back
down and start having graphic sex.

00:56:29.025 --> 00:56:29.655
That i'll That's right.

00:56:29.715 --> 00:56:31.215
Be forced to witness somehow.

00:56:31.215 --> 00:56:31.335
Yeah.

00:56:31.365 --> 00:56:32.685
Somehow, yeah.

00:56:32.895 --> 00:56:33.645
In the house.

00:56:33.645 --> 00:56:37.125
Just down the street from my house
in, in a, in a very DAOs combination

00:56:37.125 --> 00:56:39.075
of, oh no, don't make me watch.

00:56:39.135 --> 00:56:40.485
Ah, just hold me back.

00:56:40.485 --> 00:56:43.275
Oh wait, I do wanna watch ah, my eyes.

00:56:43.455 --> 00:56:44.295
Ah, yeah.

00:56:45.045 --> 00:56:45.555
But both.

00:56:45.645 --> 00:56:46.575
It's exquisite torture.

00:56:46.575 --> 00:56:51.195
That's what I wanted to say was apart from
that one intrusive thought, I get a day.

00:56:51.375 --> 00:56:53.295
I think I'm getting over it, bro.

00:56:53.805 --> 00:56:57.765
Yeah, you've And I've spent three
years wearing bright tracksuits.

00:56:57.825 --> 00:56:58.065
Yeah.

00:56:58.065 --> 00:56:59.895
And I'm not feeling so
drawn to them anymore.

00:56:59.895 --> 00:56:59.985
Yes.

00:57:00.015 --> 00:57:02.415
And I've spent three years
doing this show with you.

00:57:02.445 --> 00:57:02.685
Yeah.

00:57:03.045 --> 00:57:04.965
And it's been very cathartic, you know?

00:57:05.750 --> 00:57:08.370
And you haven't mentioned
her very often at all.

00:57:08.779 --> 00:57:11.330
It's, it's, it's finally shifting.

00:57:11.390 --> 00:57:11.660
Yeah.

00:57:11.779 --> 00:57:16.910
And I just wanted to thank you for
your part in that and that maybe the

00:57:16.910 --> 00:57:19.910
show can move on to an, a new phase.

00:57:20.300 --> 00:57:20.450
Yeah.

00:57:20.600 --> 00:57:26.180
'cause I think I, I've needed to do
this as like a healing thing because

00:57:26.180 --> 00:57:30.290
I don't think that X was just about
that one six month relationship.

00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:30.440
Mm-hmm.

00:57:30.830 --> 00:57:32.029
I think it might have been.

00:57:32.090 --> 00:57:32.420
Mm-hmm.

00:57:32.850 --> 00:57:36.990
A whole bunch of shit going back
definitely into ancient history.

00:57:36.990 --> 00:57:39.480
For some reason that one
crystallized a bunch of stuff.

00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:44.580
It just like, it was like, yeah, like
it triggered an avalanche of emotions

00:57:44.580 --> 00:57:48.420
that I couldn't deal with, and all I
could think to do was put on a bright

00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:51.840
red tracksuit and walk down Brunswick
Street or whatever, yeah's, right.

00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:52.770
You had to make.

00:57:53.495 --> 00:57:55.115
You know, you had to make some new moves.

00:57:55.145 --> 00:57:55.535
Remember that?

00:57:55.564 --> 00:57:55.805
Yeah.

00:57:55.805 --> 00:57:57.365
I had to make myself loud.

00:57:57.455 --> 00:57:57.785
Yes.

00:57:57.785 --> 00:57:58.026
Remember that?

00:57:58.049 --> 00:57:58.509
Get a voice.

00:57:58.830 --> 00:58:01.475
Remember that great episode of Black
Books where Manny's trying to calm

00:58:01.475 --> 00:58:04.564
down and he's trying to read from the
little book of calm and it's like, yeah.

00:58:04.564 --> 00:58:06.694
When, when you are stressed,
uh, do something different.

00:58:06.875 --> 00:58:08.794
Roll up your sleeves or eat an orange.

00:58:08.825 --> 00:58:09.604
Yeah.

00:58:09.604 --> 00:58:10.234
You know, it was that.

00:58:10.234 --> 00:58:10.924
It was like that.

00:58:10.984 --> 00:58:11.225
Yeah.

00:58:11.254 --> 00:58:12.004
It's just like that.

00:58:12.004 --> 00:58:14.015
It's like I need to make some new
moves, which is not to say I'll

00:58:14.015 --> 00:58:15.424
never wear a tracksuit again.

00:58:16.065 --> 00:58:18.225
But do it if you feel
the need or the desire.

00:58:18.225 --> 00:58:21.855
But what, what happened is the season
changed and it came into tracksuit

00:58:21.855 --> 00:58:25.845
season where it's not too hot to wear
a tracksuit, and it's like the perfect

00:58:25.845 --> 00:58:27.645
temperature to wear one, but you haven't.

00:58:28.005 --> 00:58:32.085
And I was like, I think I'm ready to
just leave him in the closet for a while.

00:58:32.085 --> 00:58:34.815
You know, just for the record,
Joe's just in the blacks today.

00:58:35.250 --> 00:58:37.200
He's got his regulation issue.

00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:38.069
Puffer jacket.

00:58:38.129 --> 00:58:38.310
Yeah.

00:58:38.310 --> 00:58:40.319
I look like an an anonymous.

00:58:40.379 --> 00:58:41.279
So my new look.

00:58:41.339 --> 00:58:41.609
Yeah.

00:58:41.910 --> 00:58:42.720
You ready for this?

00:58:42.720 --> 00:58:42.930
Yeah.

00:58:43.290 --> 00:58:44.399
It's like a Zoolander thing.

00:58:44.399 --> 00:58:44.939
Are you ready?

00:58:44.939 --> 00:58:45.120
It is.

00:58:45.120 --> 00:58:46.500
It is anonymous.

00:58:46.529 --> 00:58:47.189
Anonymous.

00:58:47.220 --> 00:58:48.750
I'm going full anonymous.

00:58:48.750 --> 00:58:49.890
It's the opposite of blue steel.

00:58:50.040 --> 00:58:50.430
Yeah.

00:58:50.430 --> 00:58:51.779
Everything that.

00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:53.610
It's gonna make me blend in.

00:58:53.670 --> 00:58:54.720
That's what I'm gonna wear.

00:58:55.080 --> 00:58:56.160
Utterly unremarkable.

00:58:56.220 --> 00:58:56.670
Yeah.

00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:58.890
Gonna, it's kind of zen
when you think about it.

00:58:58.935 --> 00:58:59.156
Oh yeah.

00:58:59.156 --> 00:59:00.870
You just fade into the background.

00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:04.320
Uh, be what is like a
samurai being No one Rams.

00:59:05.250 --> 00:59:05.580
Yeah.

00:59:05.790 --> 00:59:06.001
Being, no.

00:59:06.001 --> 00:59:06.002
Yeah.

00:59:06.002 --> 00:59:06.195
Being no.

00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:07.230
Becoming nobody.

00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:08.130
Becoming nobody.

00:59:08.130 --> 00:59:08.640
That's the, yeah.

00:59:08.640 --> 00:59:09.660
That was his doco.

00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:10.530
Doco about it.

00:59:10.830 --> 00:59:11.070
Yeah.

00:59:11.070 --> 00:59:11.342
And you would, yeah.

00:59:11.342 --> 00:59:13.890
And that the doco about his life,
which is well worth watching, but

00:59:14.160 --> 00:59:18.810
you, at that point, I guess you
had felt completely destroyed.

00:59:19.319 --> 00:59:21.660
And you needed to try and be someone.

00:59:21.899 --> 00:59:25.680
And my last attempt at having an
Instagram account was terrible.

00:59:25.680 --> 00:59:28.830
And it was just photos of me in
the tracksuit and I was looking

00:59:28.830 --> 00:59:31.169
at it and it just felt so hollow.

00:59:31.169 --> 00:59:31.560
You know?

00:59:31.649 --> 00:59:32.189
I'm glad.

00:59:32.189 --> 00:59:35.069
Think you've still got those creative
instincts to just go, no, this sucks.

00:59:35.451 --> 00:59:36.531
Yeah, and then I deleted it.

00:59:36.531 --> 00:59:40.221
And then you got an email for some
reason you were linked to my Instagram.

00:59:40.221 --> 00:59:40.222
Yeah.

00:59:40.227 --> 00:59:41.511
And you are like, are you okay bro?

00:59:41.601 --> 00:59:42.921
I get this email at work.

00:59:42.921 --> 00:59:44.151
Are you okay?

00:59:44.151 --> 00:59:47.631
You're deleting your Instagram and
it's like, I've got bipolar disorder.

00:59:47.781 --> 00:59:50.511
We all delete our social
media all the time.

00:59:50.571 --> 00:59:50.961
It's true.

00:59:50.991 --> 00:59:52.401
It's the main symptom.

00:59:52.731 --> 00:59:56.391
It is such a symptom and so I guess
it becomes a tell and then you're

00:59:56.391 --> 00:59:59.781
like, well man, I can at least
start with cutting this tell off

00:59:59.811 --> 01:00:01.281
'cause it's not doing any good.

01:00:01.341 --> 01:00:05.841
No, I'm, I'm, I have no social media
and it feels good, but you never know,

01:00:05.931 --> 01:00:10.521
man, when I'm gonna crank up my fifth
Instagram account, you never know.

01:00:10.581 --> 01:00:10.851
Look.

01:00:11.111 --> 01:00:11.741
He could hit.

01:00:11.741 --> 01:00:15.041
He could be back any day and the
tracksuit could be there, but this

01:00:15.041 --> 01:00:16.811
time he's framed it the right way.

01:00:16.811 --> 01:00:18.971
He's like, no, I'm going full anonymous.

01:00:18.971 --> 01:00:19.181
Bro.

01:00:19.181 --> 01:00:22.001
If you can gimme any tips of how
to blend in to being straight,

01:00:22.001 --> 01:00:23.411
white guy more than ever.

01:00:23.621 --> 01:00:24.131
Yeah.

01:00:24.131 --> 01:00:25.781
Just dislike the standard issue.

01:00:25.781 --> 01:00:26.711
Suburban dad.

01:00:26.801 --> 01:00:28.631
That's what I'm going for.

01:00:28.631 --> 01:00:30.371
Well, you already know
how to talk about sport.

01:00:30.371 --> 01:00:31.001
That's good.

01:00:31.031 --> 01:00:31.721
Yeah.

01:00:31.811 --> 01:00:32.231
Oh, love it.

01:00:32.231 --> 01:00:32.441
Yeah.

01:00:35.136 --> 01:00:37.506
Dating stories that's
real camouflage, you know?

01:00:37.506 --> 01:00:37.776
Yeah.

01:00:37.776 --> 01:00:40.866
Well there there's not
many of them at the moment.

01:00:40.866 --> 01:00:40.874
There's not many of them at the moment.

01:00:40.931 --> 01:00:41.221
Yeah.

01:00:41.221 --> 01:00:45.756
Uh, yeah, look, just, you know,
the less you've got to prove.

01:00:45.906 --> 01:00:48.246
I mean, that's, that's a
very dow note to end on.

01:00:48.276 --> 01:00:51.456
'cause I just Well, but you're a good
person to talk to about becoming nobody

01:00:51.456 --> 01:00:52.896
'cause you are trying to blend in.

01:00:52.896 --> 01:00:56.136
But I was saying to you before the show,
you're just a naturally, a bit of a freak.

01:00:56.136 --> 01:00:58.386
You've got these bugged out kind of eyes.

01:00:58.386 --> 01:00:58.986
You've got a Yeah.

01:00:59.136 --> 01:01:00.096
Lot of energy.

01:01:00.096 --> 01:01:01.836
You, you're moving at a lot of angles.

01:01:01.836 --> 01:01:03.666
You're unusually tall and lanky.

01:01:03.671 --> 01:01:03.741
Mm-hmm.

01:01:03.846 --> 01:01:03.936
Mm-hmm.

01:01:04.326 --> 01:01:06.996
But you wear fairly
boring clothes and stuff.

01:01:06.996 --> 01:01:11.316
But I do tend to, but just below the
surface is someone who's wearing a

01:01:11.316 --> 01:01:14.466
dress on Brunswick Street, like Correct.

01:01:14.496 --> 01:01:17.466
I feel like we both promenaded
at different times of our life.

01:01:17.496 --> 01:01:19.746
But you, you went further
than me because you crossed.

01:01:19.746 --> 01:01:20.661
That's a major lot.

01:01:20.796 --> 01:01:21.696
Major Peacocking.

01:01:21.756 --> 01:01:22.386
Peacocking.

01:01:22.416 --> 01:01:23.976
I was peacocking for three years.

01:01:23.976 --> 01:01:24.156
Yeah.

01:01:24.446 --> 01:01:26.606
And it's coming up in two days time.

01:01:26.606 --> 01:01:28.856
It'll be three years since
I got my first tracksuit.

01:01:29.216 --> 01:01:32.246
And I feel like, 'cause I
went back through my photos.

01:01:32.246 --> 01:01:32.411
I love that.

01:01:32.486 --> 01:01:33.806
I was feeling reflective.

01:01:33.896 --> 01:01:34.166
Yeah.

01:01:34.346 --> 01:01:37.466
And it literally says delivery
coming from Aidas and it was

01:01:37.466 --> 01:01:39.626
the first black tracksuit.

01:01:40.166 --> 01:01:41.876
So it's three years of.

01:01:42.471 --> 01:01:45.741
Just trying to get over this
one relationship, you know?

01:01:46.101 --> 01:01:49.251
Meanwhile, I was contemplating buying
a tracksuit, but then I didn't.

01:01:49.341 --> 01:01:50.241
I can tell you some.

01:01:50.241 --> 01:01:51.021
I've got four.

01:01:51.111 --> 01:01:52.251
Yeah, it's true.

01:01:52.761 --> 01:01:53.421
Good price.

01:01:53.421 --> 01:01:54.741
They might fit good price for you.

01:01:54.771 --> 01:01:55.431
They might fit me.

01:01:55.521 --> 01:01:55.731
Okay.

01:01:56.466 --> 01:01:57.216
Uh, they would fit.

01:01:57.306 --> 01:01:58.566
They'd be a bit baggy.

01:01:58.851 --> 01:01:59.091
Yeah.

01:01:59.096 --> 01:01:59.286
Yeah.

01:01:59.376 --> 01:02:01.446
I'm carrying a bit of extra, you know?

01:02:01.446 --> 01:02:01.506
Yeah.

01:02:01.506 --> 01:02:01.956
That, that's true.

01:02:01.956 --> 01:02:04.356
Might might be a little
too loose in the mid Yeah.

01:02:04.536 --> 01:02:06.096
But the right height perhaps.

01:02:06.186 --> 01:02:08.676
But I will say also the letting it go.

01:02:08.676 --> 01:02:09.006
Right?

01:02:09.006 --> 01:02:13.146
So this last line for just letting
it go is what makes it stay right?

01:02:13.146 --> 01:02:15.561
So you just, you didn't need
the bit anymore, you didn't

01:02:15.561 --> 01:02:16.656
need to lean on the bit.

01:02:16.716 --> 01:02:21.996
You're like, I, I can, I can let it go
and it will still be an eternal bit.

01:02:22.296 --> 01:02:23.226
Like it's there.

01:02:23.256 --> 01:02:26.856
People will remember, well, one day I'll
drive down my street and I won't expect

01:02:26.856 --> 01:02:28.716
to see a car at my neighbor's house.

01:02:28.746 --> 01:02:32.046
You'll forget to, I'll forget
to have the intrusive thought.

01:02:32.046 --> 01:02:32.106
Yeah.

01:02:32.586 --> 01:02:33.006
Yeah.

01:02:33.036 --> 01:02:33.156
Yeah.

01:02:33.156 --> 01:02:34.716
Graduated exposure therapy.

01:02:34.746 --> 01:02:37.056
Look, the thing, it,
there was a purpose in it.

01:02:37.056 --> 01:02:39.156
There was nothing wrong in making
those, there was nothing wrong in

01:02:39.156 --> 01:02:40.896
making those moves when you made them.

01:02:40.896 --> 01:02:44.166
And now the purpose has
passed and so, you know.

01:02:44.436 --> 01:02:45.096
Interesting.

01:02:45.186 --> 01:02:47.466
All right, well welcome
to my new anonymous phase.

01:02:47.766 --> 01:02:48.036
Yeah.

01:02:48.096 --> 01:02:50.766
And good to have you in my house
recording for the first time.

01:02:50.796 --> 01:02:55.776
And I better go and fire up the old,
uh, Italian Expo bar espresso machine.

01:02:55.836 --> 01:02:56.406
Oh, yes, please.

01:02:56.436 --> 01:02:57.126
Oh, I just did it.

01:02:57.126 --> 01:02:59.916
Our first product placement,
it is actually expo bar.

01:03:00.191 --> 01:03:02.051
Keeping Sam and Joe caffeinated.

01:03:02.201 --> 01:03:04.361
I really like how you have
to pull the thing down.

01:03:04.421 --> 01:03:05.111
Oh, it's proper.

01:03:05.171 --> 01:03:06.491
And you don't push a button.

01:03:06.521 --> 01:03:07.271
It's proper, man.

01:03:07.361 --> 01:03:08.651
Yeah, I've got, it's made in Italy.

01:03:08.801 --> 01:03:09.821
I've got the button push.

01:03:09.826 --> 01:03:11.531
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:11.531 --> 01:03:12.941
Well, welcome to a whole new era.

01:03:13.061 --> 01:03:13.421
Yeah.

01:03:13.871 --> 01:03:14.381
All right.

01:03:14.381 --> 01:03:14.951
See you, mate.

01:03:15.311 --> 01:03:15.581
See you.