WEBVTT 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:08.719 I could say anything on this podcast, and I would hope people would go, that's interesting but I'll just check it out and do a little bit of research myself. 00:00:09.040 --> 00:00:10.540 As a journalist that's what we do. 00:00:10.660 --> 00:00:15.809 So everybody's got a responsibility not to just take everything as gospel and go not too sure about that. 00:00:15.809 --> 00:00:26.490 I'm going to look into it, but also podcasters have a responsibility as well to be making sure that the information that they put out there is correct. 00:00:28.990 --> 00:00:33.799 Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:34.300 --> 00:00:39.640 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company, where we help mission-driven podcasts level Up. 00:00:39.879 --> 00:00:45.730 I'm Jennifer-Lee Gunson and I am the founder of J Pod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:47.320 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:47.620 --> 00:00:51.970 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:52.680 --> 00:01:03.500 Jen, you know where you can find almost a thousand, maybe we're over a thousand now, other higher education podcasters, that's on higheredpods.com. 00:01:04.220 --> 00:01:09.860 And even more exciting, Jen, you know where you can go meet some higher education podcasters in real life? 00:01:10.850 --> 00:01:14.850 In Chicago on July 12th at the Higher Ed PodCon. 00:01:15.039 --> 00:01:24.340 We let you know last time that our keynote speaker is going to be Matt Abrahams from Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:01:24.820 --> 00:01:29.770 And he has the ultra popular Think Fast Talk Smart podcast. 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:34.949 Lots to share how he's built that into a juggernaut of a podcast actually. 00:01:34.950 --> 00:01:36.730 So excited for that. 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:44.250 So check out HigherEdPodCon.com for all the rest of the updated information. 00:01:44.470 --> 00:01:44.820 Do it. 00:01:44.820 --> 00:01:45.830 It's going to be a good time. 00:01:45.870 --> 00:01:47.110 Come say hi to Neil and I. 00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:47.990 That's right. 00:01:48.030 --> 00:01:51.600 We will be recording this podcast, Continuing Studies live. 00:01:51.900 --> 00:01:54.220 In front of a live studio audience. 00:01:54.230 --> 00:01:55.130 No booing though. 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:55.539 Thank you. 00:01:55.540 --> 00:01:56.109 Yeah, that's right. 00:01:56.229 --> 00:01:56.739 No booing. 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.520 Jen, in this episode, we're talking with Carl Hartley. 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:11.845 Carl teaches broadcast and digital journalism while also holding the role of Digital Education Academic Lead and Deputy Academic Integrity Lead. 00:02:12.345 --> 00:02:12.525 Whew. 00:02:12.635 --> 00:02:13.114 That's a lot. 00:02:13.595 --> 00:02:18.435 With the School of Media and Communication, at the University of Leeds. 00:02:18.625 --> 00:02:25.334 If that's not enough, Carl also is, he comes from the BBC, but he's still working freelance as a senior journalist. 00:02:25.335 --> 00:02:30.700 And he regularly reads the news on Five Live, which is super cool. 00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:32.350 That's the one that I listen to. 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:34.820 I think that's the sports one, but also the news one. 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:35.690 I like that one a lot. 00:02:35.950 --> 00:02:40.240 He's also producer on the Sounds of Politics Podcast. 00:02:41.109 --> 00:02:41.450 Wow. 00:02:41.519 --> 00:02:44.749 He's got a lot going on and this was an awesome conversation. 00:02:45.160 --> 00:02:45.630 It was. 00:02:45.679 --> 00:02:48.579 I've always wanted to work for the BBC too, being a broadcaster. 00:02:48.579 --> 00:02:58.139 So I was really excited to talk to him and the fact that he teaches broadcasting school because it looks much different than when I went back in the day. 00:02:58.149 --> 00:03:00.459 So let's get into the conversation. 00:03:02.500 --> 00:03:03.940 Carl, thanks for joining us today. 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:09.300 No, it's lovely to be asked and it's lovely to be joining you and talking about podcasting. 00:03:09.625 --> 00:03:10.055 Yes. 00:03:10.285 --> 00:03:18.764 So Carl, you are a full time lecturer in journalism at the University of Leeds where you actually hold a few roles there. 00:03:18.815 --> 00:03:34.210 You also still have your foot in the door at the BBC as a freelance senior journalist, specifically reading the news on Five Live, and you are also a producer on the Sound of Politics podcast. 00:03:34.220 --> 00:03:39.319 You got a lot going on here, so maybe let's start by just talking about your role at the University of Leeds. 00:03:39.390 --> 00:03:40.400 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:03:40.995 --> 00:03:57.905 Yeah, well, I am a lecturer in journalism practice, so I teach across all different aspects of journalism from broadcast journalism, which is my main background, but also digital journalism as well, because the whole industry now is digital. 00:03:58.174 --> 00:04:05.045 So yeah, I teach undergraduates and postgraduates as well in journalism and absolutely love it. 00:04:05.330 --> 00:04:05.960 I really do. 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:16.779 When I left the industry, radio, even though I'm still in it, but I never thought I would get a job as much as I loved doing every single day as much as I did radio. 00:04:17.219 --> 00:04:28.169 But coming in, meeting the students, seeing them develop and teaching this wonderful, um, subject that we've got, I absolutely love it just as much. 00:04:28.569 --> 00:04:51.250 I have a question already for you, Carl, because, as you know, I'm a broadcaster as well, because we're seeing it here in Canada, uh, probably similar in the UK, I know it's happening in the US, is that broadcasting programs are dwindling in numbers because they're changing from the traditional model, and a lot of them, like you said, are putting digital platforms in place. 00:04:51.280 --> 00:05:01.730 Are you seeing, when you teach, numbers dwindle, or are you guys pretty, like, on the ball and have switched fully to digital mediums, or are you still really trying to push out traditional broadcasters? 00:05:02.340 --> 00:05:04.020 I think we do a little bit of everything. 00:05:04.030 --> 00:05:10.959 We still get people wanting to do broadcast, people wanting to be in TV news and radio news. 00:05:11.340 --> 00:05:13.079 But we teach it a little bit different. 00:05:13.090 --> 00:05:18.189 The skills that you can get from journalism and the skills that we teach are transferable skills. 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:23.804 So I'm finding that when students are coming in now, they are asking more about doing the podcast inside. 00:05:24.044 --> 00:05:27.454 They're asking more about how do you do reels for TikTok? 00:05:28.084 --> 00:05:31.034 How do you do reels for different Instagram? 00:05:31.174 --> 00:05:37.450 But we teach the basics of journalism, no matter what industry we teach that. 00:05:37.530 --> 00:05:45.400 So as part of our course, we do our radio news days, our TV news days, and our digital news days as well. 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:47.440 And when we do that, we do online. 00:05:47.449 --> 00:05:55.320 So they might be doing blogs, they might be doing articles that way, but also they might be doing reels. 00:05:55.400 --> 00:05:58.950 They might be doing digital shorts journalism as well. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.530 And one of my colleagues, Ian Bucknell, he's an associate professor here. 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:11.490 He's done a lot of research into how trends of journalism is changing and how we're moving to a more digital world. 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:20.735 And because of that, he did that a couple of years back, we've kind of adapted our modules, our program here to incorporate all this. 00:06:20.914 --> 00:06:26.414 So we do teach the students that when they go out, they will have to be a multimedia journalist. 00:06:26.575 --> 00:06:28.494 So broadcasting is still in there. 00:06:28.494 --> 00:06:30.334 You still need to be able to communicate. 00:06:31.049 --> 00:06:33.799 But you might be doing it on social media. 00:06:33.850 --> 00:06:38.339 You might be doing it in the old traditional radio and TV ways. 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:47.760 So we kind of teach across the whole spectrum, really, because we want our students to be fully prepared for a digital world. 00:06:48.129 --> 00:06:49.650 But the tradition is still there. 00:06:50.559 --> 00:06:51.169 I agree. 00:06:51.169 --> 00:06:54.079 I think what you guys are doing is fantastic. 00:06:54.309 --> 00:06:59.500 I truly believe it doesn't matter if you're on TikTok, YouTube, podcasting, you're still broadcasting. 00:06:59.510 --> 00:07:03.429 Even when you're writing a Tweet, you're broadcasting essentially. 00:07:03.710 --> 00:07:18.460 So it doesn't matter if you're doing written journalism, which can be social media captions, presenting on a TikTok, presenting on a YouTube short, you're still broadcasting everything that you have in your toolkit as a broadcaster you can use. 00:07:18.789 --> 00:07:27.549 I'd just like to see that you guys have really moved it forward because I just know here in Canada broadcasting programs are closing and they're not getting the numbers that they used to. 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:31.559 Maybe because they're not fully going into the digital format like you. 00:07:31.559 --> 00:07:44.140 The fact that you guys are doing Reels and stuff I think is really genius and you're really moving it forward because I truly believe all these things, TikTok, podcasting, or kind of the rebirth of radio, it's just different vessels to get the information out. 00:07:44.690 --> 00:07:45.409 Absolutely. 00:07:45.409 --> 00:07:48.120 It's just a different vehicle to drive it home. 00:07:48.370 --> 00:07:55.110 I just want to pick up on what you said about, you know, if you're doing a Tweet, if you're just putting that out there, you are publishing. 00:07:55.510 --> 00:07:58.169 And this is something that I'm really passionate about. 00:07:58.589 --> 00:08:01.990 Everybody nowadays is a publisher when they're doing that. 00:08:02.530 --> 00:08:07.090 But media literacy within schools is not there. 00:08:07.130 --> 00:08:17.260 And we should be teaching, you know, at secondary school and, you know, further afield that actually you can't just put allegedly in front of something and you will be safe. 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:19.060 It does not work like that. 00:08:19.330 --> 00:08:23.099 So you're right with that everybody is, you know, a publisher these days. 00:08:23.099 --> 00:08:32.539 And I know I go off a little bit, digress a little bit there, but within our course, we're teaching journalism and we are, yeah, digitally minded these days. 00:08:32.789 --> 00:08:53.489 I guess that's the key part there, and the last part of what you just said, Carl, is it's still about the basic tenets of journalism, creating a story, all that goes into a journalist's career, as both of you said, it's just the vehicle has evolved, especially over the last five years with the odd coming of podcasting and so on and so forth. 00:08:53.489 --> 00:09:10.385 So I think that's a really good observation, as there's definitely a larger voice out there trying to tear down quote unquote traditional media, but I think we can't throw out the importance of journalism and we need to really protect that for sure. 00:09:10.994 --> 00:09:11.435 Well, we do. 00:09:11.435 --> 00:09:19.454 I mean, if we just look at the recent election in the US with the Joe Rogan podcast, whatever you think of that podcast. 00:09:20.074 --> 00:09:35.395 When he had President Trump on, he did not challenge him the way I would hope a journalist that I taught or a journalist that had come through a journalism degree would have challenged Donald Trump on some of the things he was putting out there. 00:09:35.995 --> 00:09:46.035 And I think that is an important point to make, as you're alluding to there, it is important that when you're doing a broadcast, that you are challenging people and you are questioning. 00:09:46.225 --> 00:09:56.235 And that's what we try to teach the students, that if you are doing this kind of new media, you are doing it using the skills that every journalist should be trained with. 00:09:56.665 --> 00:10:04.954 Well, and it's interesting you say that too, because it's not just what you were mentioning about journalists holding their interview subject accountable. 00:10:05.214 --> 00:10:06.865 It's also fact checking. 00:10:06.915 --> 00:10:12.895 A lot of people don't fact check anymore, and they've also proven that in true crime podcasts or just true crime. 00:10:12.904 --> 00:10:26.850 Some of the stuff would have probably never been solved without them, but the problem is everybody can chime in and that's very dangerous because people are not necessarily fact checking and they can accuse whoever of murders and that's a whole thing. 00:10:27.415 --> 00:10:29.645 And obviously fact checking for politics. 00:10:29.655 --> 00:10:36.855 So, people don't realize back in the day when you're a journalist, you could lose your job if you put anything wrong on. 00:10:36.855 --> 00:10:40.605 And now I feel like anyone can put wrong information out there and they're fine. 00:10:41.325 --> 00:10:48.865 Or you could lose a lot of money though if you are in a podcasting world or if you are doing that these days and you don't fact check. 00:10:49.045 --> 00:10:54.705 But I just think there is so much out there, it would be difficult to dig through it all to find the people. 00:10:54.705 --> 00:10:55.345 But you're right. 00:10:55.384 --> 00:10:56.114 Absolutely. 00:10:56.415 --> 00:10:58.285 As a journalist, it was your job. 00:10:58.305 --> 00:11:02.855 And actually, you were proud to do that because you were trusted. 00:11:02.985 --> 00:11:04.655 You were trusted to do that. 00:11:04.894 --> 00:11:08.604 And I think nowadays, you mentioned about true crime. 00:11:08.765 --> 00:11:15.584 There was a story over here in the UK in a little village called St. Michael's near Blackpool in Lancashire. 00:11:15.954 --> 00:11:18.464 And Nicola Bully was this lady. 00:11:18.464 --> 00:11:25.375 She took her kids to school and then went walking with her dog straight afterwards and then just disappeared. 00:11:25.564 --> 00:11:34.350 And for a long time, the police weren't giving out enough information for the public because of reasons they knew more than the public. 00:11:34.850 --> 00:11:48.679 But what happened was, there was all these sleuths, all these armchair detectives turned up at this village, they were accusing people of different things, family members of being involved in this, and they were putting all this speculation out there. 00:11:49.150 --> 00:11:58.189 The problem was, it actually harmed the investigation in the end, and there was another one, a guy called Jay Slater who went missing in Tenerife. 00:11:58.410 --> 00:12:12.390 The police over there, because of all these people who were speculating and putting out all these theories of what happened, they decided, right, we're going to announce to the press that we're calling off this operation, we're calling off the search, and they did that. 00:12:12.729 --> 00:12:14.739 But they actually did the search in secret. 00:12:15.069 --> 00:12:20.149 So, all what's going on now is hampering police investigations. 00:12:20.189 --> 00:12:28.760 And, after the Nicola Bully one, there was a documentary done with the family, and her husband was saying, he was just thrown into this. 00:12:28.810 --> 00:12:30.449 People were approaching him. 00:12:30.819 --> 00:12:34.610 There were people going into back gardens in St. Michael's. 00:12:35.060 --> 00:12:36.870 And they were looking in people's sheds. 00:12:36.980 --> 00:12:41.779 Because there was a theory going round that maybe she was hidden away in people's back gardens. 00:12:42.224 --> 00:12:43.795 Because there was mystery around it. 00:12:43.974 --> 00:12:46.324 And that's where it starts to be really dangerous. 00:12:46.364 --> 00:12:52.805 People just going out and saying whatever they feel they think they can say, on podcasts. 00:12:53.025 --> 00:12:57.214 With journalism, there is rules in place, and they're in place for a reason. 00:12:57.564 --> 00:13:00.274 And that's what we try to teach again, here at the university. 00:13:00.275 --> 00:13:08.095 You know, we teach journalism, but hopefully they will take these good practices and hopefully, the good journalism will come through. 00:13:09.035 --> 00:13:18.904 So how does keeping a foot in the radio world with your freelance role still at the BBC, how does that help you with your teaching at the University of Leeds? 00:13:19.525 --> 00:13:26.905 I definitely think it makes me a better teacher, because I am across the new changes that are happening in industry. 00:13:26.915 --> 00:13:35.555 So for example, when I come in to teach the students, I can tell them real life scenarios that have just happened this weekend. 00:13:35.835 --> 00:13:37.584 So all my teaching is current. 00:13:37.595 --> 00:13:38.505 It's up to date. 00:13:38.724 --> 00:13:49.184 I'm experiencing what they're going to be experiencing in a couple of years time, or some of them do get work experience and then get a few freelance shifts whilst they're still at university. 00:13:49.204 --> 00:13:52.944 So I'm experiencing it exactly the same as what they're experiencing. 00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:57.830 Industry's changing all the time and I'm across that change because I'm involved in it. 00:13:58.290 --> 00:14:01.509 Although getting up at three thirty in the morning, I do question it. 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:10.690 But when I get there, I still get the same buzz that I've always got from being a journalist and being on the radio, but it does make me a better teacher in that sense. 00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:16.880 But it also allows me to be a kind of a connection here at the university with industry as well. 00:14:17.290 --> 00:14:21.269 So there's a lot of great research that goes on at the University of Leeds. 00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:28.670 And hopefully having myself in industry, I can see the research on this side that's happening. 00:14:28.920 --> 00:14:33.479 I can see maybe where it can fit in industry, so the research can make a real difference there. 00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:42.789 And vice versa, you know, I can see gaps that maybe industry could benefit from research that's going on here at the university. 00:14:43.029 --> 00:14:49.475 And I can kind of help point the research towards industry to help them and industry the other way around. 00:14:49.775 --> 00:15:04.725 It's another big thing that I think having academics who work in industry, practicing academics, I feel that's a really helpful thing for both industry and also for the institutions. 00:15:04.885 --> 00:15:13.030 There's so many skills that transfer over, and I say this all the time too, because as you said, podcasting, I think could benefit from a lot of them. 00:15:13.229 --> 00:15:20.035 I feel like you have a lot of those skills that you probably pull from to teach your students, but any podcast you're on, you're able to translate. 00:15:20.425 --> 00:15:27.974 How has podcasting worked its way into your academic teaching and into the curriculum, carl? 00:15:28.184 --> 00:15:33.884 So, we teach podcasting at the university and we use it as part of assessment as well. 00:15:33.895 --> 00:15:39.354 So, in the third year news days that we do here, the students are broken up into teams. 00:15:39.354 --> 00:15:41.464 So, they're one news team. 00:15:41.709 --> 00:15:46.290 But we have an online news team, we work on the web and digital. 00:15:46.670 --> 00:15:51.240 We have a radio news team, a TV news team, and a podcasting news team. 00:15:51.629 --> 00:16:00.755 So the podcasters will create a journalistic podcast for that day which they then produce. 00:16:00.875 --> 00:16:07.685 So we will use podcasting as a way of a summative assessment for the students. 00:16:07.745 --> 00:16:11.365 But we also use it as well, for example, the Sound of Politics podcast. 00:16:11.365 --> 00:16:14.515 It is a podcast that isn't just academic. 00:16:14.735 --> 00:16:16.965 It's for the wider world to listen to. 00:16:17.404 --> 00:16:22.495 But at the same time, we get political students to listen to certain episodes. 00:16:22.505 --> 00:16:25.035 So we teach through podcasting as well. 00:16:25.605 --> 00:16:32.645 And I'm a massive believer in, you know, the intimacy of a podcast, the ease that you can listen to a podcast. 00:16:33.165 --> 00:16:39.125 You can do it whilst you're sat down, whilst you're traveling in, whilst you're going out for a run. 00:16:39.634 --> 00:16:42.815 And people don't just learn the traditional ways. 00:16:42.815 --> 00:16:44.685 There's so many different ways of learning. 00:16:44.895 --> 00:16:50.135 So we use podcasting in that sense to get the students to listen to certain podcasts, analyze them. 00:16:50.705 --> 00:16:51.415 Do you agree? 00:16:51.415 --> 00:16:51.975 Do you not? 00:16:52.025 --> 00:16:55.085 And spark that debate through podcasts. 00:16:55.105 --> 00:17:02.515 And they're just a couple of ways that we're using podcasting here at the university as a tool for learning for students. 00:17:03.275 --> 00:17:09.864 I love that it's not just part of the curriculum, but you're using podcasting as a tool for teaching. 00:17:10.244 --> 00:17:13.485 Jen and I have been doing this show for a little over two years. 00:17:13.485 --> 00:17:22.139 And I feel like in the last couple of months it just sort of seems podcasting is being used more and more as a tool for teaching actually as well too. 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:40.330 I think it lends itself to that because it is that kind of one on one conversation that you have and the ease of being able to, you know, sit down whilst you're having your lunch or dinner and listen to a podcast and not feel like, oh, I've got to do some work. 00:17:40.790 --> 00:17:43.150 But you just can sit there and listen and take it in. 00:17:43.389 --> 00:17:53.610 Topics being discussed, or topics sparking people's imaginations, that then when they come back to the sessions, they can discuss it and debate it. 00:17:53.899 --> 00:17:59.674 And I just think it's a great vehicle for getting messages across or putting learning out there. 00:18:00.045 --> 00:18:18.409 Carl, you had mentioned, and I sort of wanted to dig into a little bit here, is your research, which focuses on misinformation, but you had mentioned to us that that has specifically led to you researching and starting to explore podcast regulation. 00:18:18.929 --> 00:18:21.910 So curious if you could sort of just unpack that a little bit for us. 00:18:22.070 --> 00:18:23.430 Is regulation really needed? 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:33.789 Yeah, I mean, one of the unique things about podcasting is that it is so accessible and anybody can do it. 00:18:33.830 --> 00:18:37.270 You need a microphone and a computer and you can do it. 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:49.735 And there's different levels, whether that's good podcasting or bad podcasting and all that, but it is there for people who've got something to say to, uh, just start up and get out there and, and do a podcast. 00:18:50.915 --> 00:18:53.855 But there are problems that come with that. 00:18:54.324 --> 00:19:10.594 Because as we've talked about before, when it comes to people on social media, they think they can just say whatever they want and if you say certain words, allegedly this, you can get away with it, you know, when you're within the law and it does not work like that. 00:19:11.185 --> 00:19:16.284 And there is a lot of misinformation, a lot of disinformation out there. 00:19:16.705 --> 00:19:25.764 I mentioned earlier about Joe Rogan's podcast in terms of, not so much misinformation, but you know, not challenging. 00:19:26.054 --> 00:19:28.975 And some people take that as gospel. 00:19:29.984 --> 00:19:33.684 So before I bring in the regulation side of it, there is different elements to it. 00:19:33.714 --> 00:19:48.460 I think every single person has a responsibility, not just to, you know, I could say anything on this podcast and I would hope people would go, that's interesting but I'll just check it out and do a little bit of research myself. 00:19:48.800 --> 00:19:50.290 As a journalist, that's what we do. 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:56.590 So everybody's got a responsibility not to just take everything as gospel and go, not too sure about that, I'm going to look into it. 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:06.539 But also, podcasters have a responsibility as well to be making sure that the information that they put out there is correct. 00:20:06.619 --> 00:20:11.790 And in a world where the podcast industry is growing financially. 00:20:11.790 --> 00:20:18.739 There's a lot of advertising that comes with podcasts now, if you get the numbers in, you can make this a living for yourselves. 00:20:18.959 --> 00:20:20.139 It can become a career. 00:20:20.530 --> 00:20:23.810 So people are wanting those clickbaits. 00:20:23.810 --> 00:20:29.635 They're wanting that little bit of kind of old controversy, which will get more listeners coming in. 00:20:30.095 --> 00:20:35.605 This is the point where I think regulation needs to be brought in a little bit. 00:20:35.965 --> 00:20:44.975 And when I say regulation, I'm not talking about over in the UK, we have Ofcom that is like, you know, it's got teeth and it says, you've got to do this. 00:20:44.975 --> 00:20:45.925 You've got to do that. 00:20:45.925 --> 00:20:47.534 And you can't do this and you can't do that. 00:20:47.534 --> 00:20:55.529 And there's fines, but we do need to have a look at how we are stopping that mis and disinformation going out. 00:20:55.679 --> 00:21:00.509 And I mentioned the Nicola Bully situation, the lady from Lancashire who went missing. 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:08.709 Unfortunately, she'd fallen in a river, and there was no other scenario other than she'd slipped, and that was just that. 00:21:09.089 --> 00:21:13.209 But there was all this conspiracy theory around it, and it caused so much tension. 00:21:13.379 --> 00:21:23.985 There needs to be some kind of guidelines or some kind of framework for podcasters to sign up to. 00:21:24.054 --> 00:21:26.794 Um, I don't think we should be liberalists about this. 00:21:26.794 --> 00:21:33.784 You know, everyone's free to say what they want, but I don't want to be the person that says, you know, you can't say this, you can't say that. 00:21:34.195 --> 00:21:47.990 I think as a community we need to look at this and explore it and see if there is some good practices that we all can build in and build a kind of guidelines that people sign up to. 00:21:48.350 --> 00:21:51.009 And, and, and it's all theory at the minute. 00:21:51.110 --> 00:22:07.145 I mean, we've got to convince people to get involved in this, but if they're the ones that have signed up and they're the ones that say we are part of this community, we are the ones that the algorithms will push if there's misinformation or disinformation. 00:22:07.145 --> 00:22:14.534 And you could have it that likely do on some of the social media platforms, where if you see something you don't think is right, you report it. 00:22:14.804 --> 00:22:21.915 And then it comes up with a little message on there saying that this is potentially an issue. 00:22:22.154 --> 00:22:28.965 So the algorithms push you towards one of the podcasts who are talking about similar things that are a part of this guide. 00:22:29.479 --> 00:22:32.770 This group, this framework, that's what I'm saying. 00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:38.100 So, that's where my research started because there was a lot of mis and disinformation being put out there. 00:22:38.639 --> 00:22:45.609 And I put it open to podcast creators and podcast production companies to find out what they think. 00:22:45.639 --> 00:22:50.790 And I'm halfway through this research now, where I've got the questionnaires in. 00:22:51.704 --> 00:22:58.374 And the next step is I'm going to be doing one to ones with some of these people who are involved in this. 00:22:58.504 --> 00:23:01.144 I was surprised, actually, at what came back. 00:23:01.144 --> 00:23:14.179 So, for example, we spoke to fifty-three podcasters, or podcast companies, and fifty-six percent of those said that they wanted a regulator that would be working very similar to what Ofcom does over here. 00:23:14.310 --> 00:23:19.699 Fifty-three percent wanted the regulator to just focus on podcast standards. 00:23:20.059 --> 00:23:27.309 And I can understand that because if you get the podcast standards up, the advertising comes and it becomes a bigger industry in that sense. 00:23:27.499 --> 00:23:32.649 Twenty-eight percent said that they want to make sure that podcasts remain easily accessible. 00:23:32.659 --> 00:23:33.009 So. 00:23:33.384 --> 00:23:39.705 You know, they wanted a regulator to be involved in making sure podcasts remain easily accessible. 00:23:39.855 --> 00:23:52.624 But the two bits that was the most interesting for me was that eight-seven percent said that they would see value in this informal guideline or a voluntary code that they would sign up to. 00:23:53.134 --> 00:24:01.195 And Ninety-two percent recognized that podcasts have the potential to spread mis and disinformation. 00:24:01.504 --> 00:24:14.274 They see an issue but there's still a little bit of way of how do we tackle this, because I wouldn't want it to block people from starting and setting up because that's what podcasting is about. 00:24:14.804 --> 00:24:20.264 And it's so tricky because like we have the CRTC and I know being on radio, again, very different from podcasting. 00:24:20.264 --> 00:24:22.575 It was like, you can't say that, you can't do this. 00:24:22.575 --> 00:24:23.584 You'll get fired. 00:24:23.965 --> 00:24:29.804 You got to follow the rules, but your research is just interesting that people would want a regulator. 00:24:29.824 --> 00:24:39.544 Because also too, I'm finding with social media where you talked about you want to maybe put something similar where you could flag it if you felt that it was wrong. 00:24:39.674 --> 00:24:41.674 I find that we're getting too quick to flag now. 00:24:41.714 --> 00:24:47.610 So it's like, are we bogging then all these regulators, because we are in a polarizing climate. 00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:51.850 Like, it seems to be like, either my opinion is better than your opinion, or no go. 00:24:52.120 --> 00:25:02.864 So then it's like, are we wasting time then of people just being like, oh, okay, seven days, no, you're fine, you can proceed, you can proceed, you can proceed, just because somebody had an issue with one little thing that you were saying. 00:25:03.284 --> 00:25:06.084 I don't think it should be taken down straight away. 00:25:06.084 --> 00:25:09.024 I think it should just be flagged at that point. 00:25:09.554 --> 00:25:15.134 Because then it comes back to that for only a few days, there should be a period of time that these people look at it. 00:25:15.134 --> 00:25:20.604 But it doesn't get taken down, it's still there for people to listen to, but just flagged that this person has had this issue. 00:25:20.874 --> 00:25:31.155 But I do appreciate what you're saying, because the world is so polarized at the moment, and you do get people who just do it for the sake of doing it. 00:25:31.425 --> 00:25:35.995 So there has to be some way of looking at that, and again, I don't know. 00:25:36.034 --> 00:25:51.915 I don't know what the answer is to that, but what I do think is it should be down to the communities flagging it first, and then, you know, somebody looks at this because together, as a community, we can start working. 00:25:51.965 --> 00:26:01.995 But the problem with the polarization, as well, is, and this is something that the University of Leeds has done, this is something that a couple of newspapers have done over here. 00:26:02.570 --> 00:26:09.540 They've now removed themselves from X because they feel, well, first of all, the university says two different things. 00:26:09.620 --> 00:26:16.110 One, they say that they've removed themselves because we're not getting the traction, which I totally understand. 00:26:16.169 --> 00:26:21.360 So we're not getting the number of people who are clicking on the X posts that the university was putting out. 00:26:21.679 --> 00:26:31.584 I understand that from a business point of view, but they also say that they don't like the way that X is now, or the, the kind of community that is there. 00:26:31.584 --> 00:26:43.515 Now I have a problem with that, because I feel, if there is an issue with a certain community just being one way or another, right, left, whatever you feel it is. 00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:50.250 It is our job to be there to say, listen everyone, there is another point of view. 00:26:50.580 --> 00:26:51.629 It isn't just this. 00:26:51.659 --> 00:26:57.089 And yes, probably ninety percent of people will not let you know, oh, well, you're just this, you're just that. 00:26:57.479 --> 00:27:10.379 But I think by pulling out of this space, we're just leaving these echo chambers for all these people to shout at each other, agree with each other, and then people feel empowered going, well, everybody is saying the same as me. 00:27:10.879 --> 00:27:14.090 Because there's nobody challenging that opinion and challenging that view. 00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:26.870 And I know it gets tiring, and I know it's hard work, but I don't think the right thing to do is remove ourselves from those places where this mis and disinformation is. 00:27:27.259 --> 00:27:39.299 And that's why I think, you know, having the community flag it, but at the same time, others can flag and go, I don't think this is, and then it's the balance maybe the community could decide. 00:27:39.549 --> 00:27:41.359 No, it's, it's a really interesting. 00:27:41.764 --> 00:28:04.614 challenge I think we have, especially in the academic world where there's supposed to be a voice of reason and, and rigor, and we would want to be challenging different opinions, and I don't mean in a rhetoric charged way, but in a traditional academic sense of looking at both sides, you know, steel manning and reasoning. 00:28:05.174 --> 00:28:08.624 This come up recently with one of the podcasts that we work with. 00:28:09.169 --> 00:28:25.709 And there was initially a real sort of, it's an academic podcast and there was initially sort of a real sort of want to pull back as you described it there, Carl, like pull out almost of the conversation. 00:28:26.394 --> 00:28:43.704 And now there's been a recent kind of almost revisit to the original mission of this podcast, which was to be a voice for science and research and almost counter to some of this anti science, which is going on out there. 00:28:43.704 --> 00:28:54.294 And so it's interesting how the conversation of the team working on this podcast has kind of come around on it and almost like, okay, well, we actually should be in these places. 00:28:54.949 --> 00:28:57.089 And we actually should be having a voice there. 00:28:57.539 --> 00:28:59.499 I think collaboration is the key to this. 00:28:59.539 --> 00:29:06.939 I mean, as we just have in this chat today, there's other things that get put out there and you're like challenging each other. 00:29:06.939 --> 00:29:11.059 And this kind of thing needs to be talked about because there is an issue there. 00:29:11.249 --> 00:29:13.289 It's really happening in podcasting right now. 00:29:13.340 --> 00:29:14.279 It's really interesting. 00:29:14.489 --> 00:29:17.999 I just want to sort of end with one different subject here. 00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:25.069 I noticed that you are part of what's called the Education Through Podcasting Conference. 00:29:25.069 --> 00:29:29.889 And you've got your second annual one coming up in late June. 00:29:30.340 --> 00:29:31.590 Can you just tell us a little bit more about that? 00:29:31.590 --> 00:29:33.370 I think that's really interesting for our audience. 00:29:33.870 --> 00:29:35.120 I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. 00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:35.600 Yeah. 00:29:35.670 --> 00:29:54.995 So basically EPOD, so education through podcasting is, it's the perfect way to end what we've been talking about because it's how we started, there is so many different ways of using podcasts within education these days and our conference, what we hope to do is celebrate. 00:29:55.285 --> 00:30:00.265 So it brings researchers together, academics together, and people from industry as well. 00:30:00.565 --> 00:30:09.165 So practitioners who all come together for this conference, over the two days, the 26th and 27th of June at Moeller College in London. 00:30:09.415 --> 00:30:15.190 And we all come together and we talk about how we're using podcasting within education. 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:26.110 And again, it, you know, it's interesting to see how it is being used, how podcasts are being used by different people and across different disciplines as well. 00:30:26.330 --> 00:30:28.570 So it naturally fits within journalism. 00:30:28.690 --> 00:30:30.250 So I sit here and talk about it. 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:46.070 It naturally fits, but podcasting is being used and tweaked in the kind of way that I believe podcasting is, so my kind of view of podcasting by tutors in, say, mathematics, or in other schools within universities. 00:30:46.070 --> 00:30:53.470 So when we all come together, it's really interesting to see and hear how other academics are using podcasting. 00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:56.380 But it's also the practitioner side as well. 00:30:56.380 --> 00:31:03.950 They come and they can talk about, you know, how to make it more engaging, the storytelling side of it as well. 00:31:04.260 --> 00:31:08.140 And that's where it all comes together and we've got a call for papers out at the moment as well. 00:31:08.150 --> 00:31:08.960 So, yeah. 00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:10.050 I saw that. 00:31:10.090 --> 00:31:12.320 We'll put a link to that on our show notes as well. 00:31:12.340 --> 00:31:18.030 I did notice that on the website, the peer review committee is incredibly international. 00:31:18.050 --> 00:31:19.590 So this isn't just a UK thing. 00:31:19.590 --> 00:31:26.825 I noticed that there was academic people from UK, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, Italy, US, Japan, Greece. 00:31:26.995 --> 00:31:31.695 So it's quite an international, um, focus as well too, I gather. 00:31:31.815 --> 00:31:33.225 And we always do a book as well. 00:31:33.295 --> 00:31:39.895 We want to get more people using podcasts, basically, within education because we see the value of it. 00:31:40.465 --> 00:31:40.985 That's great. 00:31:41.305 --> 00:31:42.975 I love how it's a call for papers. 00:31:42.985 --> 00:31:46.685 So it's not just a call for join a panel or to be a speaker. 00:31:47.015 --> 00:31:50.515 It's like you're leaning into the academic side of it, a call for papers. 00:31:51.135 --> 00:31:52.355 Yeah, absolutely. 00:31:52.395 --> 00:31:55.885 And I mean, yeah, call for papers because it turns into a book. 00:31:56.035 --> 00:32:05.185 One of the universities we work on, they actually bake their podcasts into their case studies so students will listen. 00:32:05.285 --> 00:32:10.475 But there's also topics to let us know about their programs because they do a lot of MBA programs. 00:32:10.515 --> 00:32:19.155 They do a two pronged approach, case studies for students, and then not only that, getting new students through engaging topics. 00:32:20.055 --> 00:32:26.335 I'm just about to launch a another podcast here at the university called PREA, which is about pedagogical research. 00:32:26.595 --> 00:32:35.595 And we're getting students involved to talk about how innovative pedagogies or different ways of teaching within the university has impacted them. 00:32:35.595 --> 00:32:39.045 But we get the tutors on to talk about the projects that they've done as well. 00:32:39.375 --> 00:32:43.935 So long and short of it, the students are listening because they're hearing about the education side of it. 00:32:43.935 --> 00:32:51.630 But tutors are also listening to it because we want to learn what other, um, academics are doing within their teaching about new ways of teaching. 00:32:51.640 --> 00:33:01.760 So we're trying to aim it out at the whole university and then further afield as well after the university, from this one out to other tutors and other institutes. 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:03.760 Oh, amazing. 00:33:03.810 --> 00:33:07.750 So thanks so much, Carl, for joining us today on Continuing Studies. 00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:10.150 It was a really interesting conversation. 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:11.700 I quite enjoyed everything. 00:33:11.710 --> 00:33:12.180 Thank you. 00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:15.790 Wow. 00:33:16.050 --> 00:33:19.640 Carl had a lot of really cool stuff to talk about there. 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:22.040 I quite enjoyed our conversation with him. 00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:28.180 Always love talking to people around the world as well and getting insight into their lives. 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:34.920 I'm super tempted to go to the Education Through Podcasting Conference in June. 00:33:35.770 --> 00:33:37.130 I just don't know how I'm going to swing it all. 00:33:37.130 --> 00:33:43.480 I'm going to try to go to the London Podcast Conference in May and then this thing in June, but maybe I have to pick one or the other. 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.530 No, just live in London from May to June. 00:33:46.730 --> 00:33:46.940 Yes. 00:33:47.300 --> 00:33:50.720 It's a very inexpensive city to go and live in for a couple of months. 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:51.540 Just like Vancouver. 00:33:51.540 --> 00:33:53.200 Just don't think of the pound conversion. 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:53.580 We're good. 00:33:54.230 --> 00:33:54.750 Right. 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:57.150 Anyways, I'm really excited for what he's doing. 00:33:57.605 --> 00:34:12.965 Because again, even though we're doing ours in Chicago, I think it's really cool that we're starting to see these little podcast conferences in the post secondary education pop up because there's so many of us and we have learned through this podcast that we love connecting with each other. 00:34:13.185 --> 00:34:18.515 And everyone has their own little difference on what they do in the podcasting space. 00:34:19.135 --> 00:34:20.575 Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:20.665 --> 00:34:33.155 And also just fascinated by Carl's research within regulation for podcasting, he's just like our previous guest, has so much going on in the podcasting space. 00:34:33.215 --> 00:34:45.135 He's just really smart and switched on and the fact that he's thinking about regulation and obviously that is a whole like hour topic or more, but it's something that I think about coming from traditional media. 00:34:45.555 --> 00:34:54.035 But also, like he said, with some of the true crime stuff too, it's like, how do we make sure that everybody's on the up and up and we're not ruining people's lives that we don't need to? 00:34:54.085 --> 00:34:56.115 But that is a huge question to answer. 00:34:56.645 --> 00:35:02.985 Yeah, we're working on a true crime podcast, and it really got me thinking about that, too, when he talked about that. 00:35:03.145 --> 00:35:04.515 Anyway, really enjoyed it. 00:35:04.725 --> 00:35:05.895 Jen, why don't you read us out? 00:35:06.200 --> 00:35:11.370 Thank you so much for tuning in to the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:35:11.620 --> 00:35:14.370 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:21.830 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:29.945 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who might be interested in higher education podcasts. 00:35:30.235 --> 00:35:38.405 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com where you can connect with other podcasters at higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:35:38.415 --> 00:35:40.295 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:35:40.585 --> 00:35:45.435 We look forward to continue to bring you valuable insights and conversations around higher education podcasts. 00:35:45.795 --> 00:35:47.165 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