I could say anything on this podcast, and I would hope people would go, that's interesting but I'll just check it out and do a little bit of research myself.
As a journalist that's what we do.
So everybody's got a responsibility not to just take everything as gospel and go not too sure about that.
I'm going to look into it, but also podcasters have a responsibility as well to be making sure that the information that they put out there is correct.
Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired.
I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company, where we help mission-driven podcasts level Up.
I'm Jennifer-Lee Gunson and I am the founder of J Pod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting.
We want you to know you're not alone.
In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we can all learn from each other.
Jen, you know where you can find almost a thousand, maybe we're over a thousand now, other higher education podcasters, that's on higheredpods.com.
And even more exciting, Jen, you know where you can go meet some higher education podcasters in real life?
In Chicago on July 12th at the Higher Ed PodCon.
We let you know last time that our keynote speaker is going to be Matt Abrahams from Stanford Graduate School of Business.
And he has the ultra popular Think Fast Talk Smart podcast.
Lots to share how he's built that into a juggernaut of a podcast actually.
So excited for that.
So check out HigherEdPodCon.com for all the rest of the updated information.
Do it.
It's going to be a good time.
Come say hi to Neil and I.
That's right.
We will be recording this podcast, Continuing Studies live.
In front of a live studio audience.
No booing though.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's right.
No booing.
Jen, in this episode, we're talking with Carl Hartley.
Carl teaches broadcast and digital journalism while also holding the role of Digital Education Academic Lead and Deputy Academic Integrity Lead.
Whew.
That's a lot.
With the School of Media and Communication, at the University of Leeds.
If that's not enough, Carl also is, he comes from the BBC, but he's still working freelance as a senior journalist.
And he regularly reads the news on Five Live, which is super cool.
That's the one that I listen to.
I think that's the sports one, but also the news one.
I like that one a lot.
He's also producer on the Sounds of Politics Podcast.
Wow.
He's got a lot going on and this was an awesome conversation.
It was.
I've always wanted to work for the BBC too, being a broadcaster.
So I was really excited to talk to him and the fact that he teaches broadcasting school because it looks much different than when I went back in the day.
So let's get into the conversation.
Carl, thanks for joining us today.
No, it's lovely to be asked and it's lovely to be joining you and talking about podcasting.
Yes.
So Carl, you are a full time lecturer in journalism at the University of Leeds where you actually hold a few roles there.
You also still have your foot in the door at the BBC as a freelance senior journalist, specifically reading the news on Five Live, and you are also a producer on the Sound of Politics podcast.
You got a lot going on here, so maybe let's start by just talking about your role at the University of Leeds.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, well, I am a lecturer in journalism practice, so I teach across all different aspects of journalism from broadcast journalism, which is my main background, but also digital journalism as well, because the whole industry now is digital.
So yeah, I teach undergraduates and postgraduates as well in journalism and absolutely love it.
I really do.
When I left the industry, radio, even though I'm still in it, but I never thought I would get a job as much as I loved doing every single day as much as I did radio.
But coming in, meeting the students, seeing them develop and teaching this wonderful, um, subject that we've got, I absolutely love it just as much.
I have a question already for you, Carl, because, as you know, I'm a broadcaster as well, because we're seeing it here in Canada, uh, probably similar in the UK, I know it's happening in the US, is that broadcasting programs are dwindling in numbers because they're changing from the traditional model, and a lot of them, like you said, are putting digital platforms in place.
Are you seeing, when you teach, numbers dwindle, or are you guys pretty, like, on the ball and have switched fully to digital mediums, or are you still really trying to push out traditional broadcasters?
I think we do a little bit of everything.
We still get people wanting to do broadcast, people wanting to be in TV news and radio news.
But we teach it a little bit different.
The skills that you can get from journalism and the skills that we teach are transferable skills.
So I'm finding that when students are coming in now, they are asking more about doing the podcast inside.
They're asking more about how do you do reels for TikTok?
How do you do reels for different Instagram?
But we teach the basics of journalism, no matter what industry we teach that.
So as part of our course, we do our radio news days, our TV news days, and our digital news days as well.
And when we do that, we do online.
So they might be doing blogs, they might be doing articles that way, but also they might be doing reels.
They might be doing digital shorts journalism as well.
And one of my colleagues, Ian Bucknell, he's an associate professor here.
He's done a lot of research into how trends of journalism is changing and how we're moving to a more digital world.
And because of that, he did that a couple of years back, we've kind of adapted our modules, our program here to incorporate all this.
So we do teach the students that when they go out, they will have to be a multimedia journalist.
So broadcasting is still in there.
You still need to be able to communicate.
But you might be doing it on social media.
You might be doing it in the old traditional radio and TV ways.
So we kind of teach across the whole spectrum, really, because we want our students to be fully prepared for a digital world.
But the tradition is still there.
I agree.
I think what you guys are doing is fantastic.
I truly believe it doesn't matter if you're on TikTok, YouTube, podcasting, you're still broadcasting.
Even when you're writing a Tweet, you're broadcasting essentially.
So it doesn't matter if you're doing written journalism, which can be social media captions, presenting on a TikTok, presenting on a YouTube short, you're still broadcasting everything that you have in your toolkit as a broadcaster you can use.
I'd just like to see that you guys have really moved it forward because I just know here in Canada broadcasting programs are closing and they're not getting the numbers that they used to.
Maybe because they're not fully going into the digital format like you.
The fact that you guys are doing Reels and stuff I think is really genius and you're really moving it forward because I truly believe all these things, TikTok, podcasting, or kind of the rebirth of radio, it's just different vessels to get the information out.
Absolutely.
It's just a different vehicle to drive it home.
I just want to pick up on what you said about, you know, if you're doing a Tweet, if you're just putting that out there, you are publishing.
And this is something that I'm really passionate about.
Everybody nowadays is a publisher when they're doing that.
But media literacy within schools is not there.
And we should be teaching, you know, at secondary school and, you know, further afield that actually you can't just put allegedly in front of something and you will be safe.
It does not work like that.
So you're right with that everybody is, you know, a publisher these days.
And I know I go off a little bit, digress a little bit there, but within our course, we're teaching journalism and we are, yeah, digitally minded these days.
I guess that's the key part there, and the last part of what you just said, Carl, is it's still about the basic tenets of journalism, creating a story, all that goes into a journalist's career, as both of you said, it's just the vehicle has evolved, especially over the last five years with the odd coming of podcasting and so on and so forth.
So I think that's a really good observation, as there's definitely a larger voice out there trying to tear down quote unquote traditional media, but I think we can't throw out the importance of journalism and we need to really protect that for sure.
Well, we do.
I mean, if we just look at the recent election in the US with the Joe Rogan podcast, whatever you think of that podcast.
When he had President Trump on, he did not challenge him the way I would hope a journalist that I taught or a journalist that had come through a journalism degree would have challenged Donald Trump on some of the things he was putting out there.
And I think that is an important point to make, as you're alluding to there, it is important that when you're doing a broadcast, that you are challenging people and you are questioning.
And that's what we try to teach the students, that if you are doing this kind of new media, you are doing it using the skills that every journalist should be trained with.
Well, and it's interesting you say that too, because it's not just what you were mentioning about journalists holding their interview subject accountable.
It's also fact checking.
A lot of people don't fact check anymore, and they've also proven that in true crime podcasts or just true crime.
Some of the stuff would have probably never been solved without them, but the problem is everybody can chime in and that's very dangerous because people are not necessarily fact checking and they can accuse whoever of murders and that's a whole thing.
And obviously fact checking for politics.
So, people don't realize back in the day when you're a journalist, you could lose your job if you put anything wrong on.
And now I feel like anyone can put wrong information out there and they're fine.
Or you could lose a lot of money though if you are in a podcasting world or if you are doing that these days and you don't fact check.
But I just think there is so much out there, it would be difficult to dig through it all to find the people.
But you're right.
Absolutely.
As a journalist, it was your job.
And actually, you were proud to do that because you were trusted.
You were trusted to do that.
And I think nowadays, you mentioned about true crime.
There was a story over here in the UK in a little village called St. Michael's near Blackpool in Lancashire.
And Nicola Bully was this lady.
She took her kids to school and then went walking with her dog straight afterwards and then just disappeared.
And for a long time, the police weren't giving out enough information for the public because of reasons they knew more than the public.
But what happened was, there was all these sleuths, all these armchair detectives turned up at this village, they were accusing people of different things, family members of being involved in this, and they were putting all this speculation out there.
The problem was, it actually harmed the investigation in the end, and there was another one, a guy called Jay Slater who went missing in Tenerife.
The police over there, because of all these people who were speculating and putting out all these theories of what happened, they decided, right, we're going to announce to the press that we're calling off this operation, we're calling off the search, and they did that.
But they actually did the search in secret.
So, all what's going on now is hampering police investigations.
And, after the Nicola Bully one, there was a documentary done with the family, and her husband was saying, he was just thrown into this.
People were approaching him.
There were people going into back gardens in St. Michael's.
And they were looking in people's sheds.
Because there was a theory going round that maybe she was hidden away in people's back gardens.
Because there was mystery around it.
And that's where it starts to be really dangerous.
People just going out and saying whatever they feel they think they can say, on podcasts.
With journalism, there is rules in place, and they're in place for a reason.
And that's what we try to teach again, here at the university.
You know, we teach journalism, but hopefully they will take these good practices and hopefully, the good journalism will come through.
So how does keeping a foot in the radio world with your freelance role still at the BBC, how does that help you with your teaching at the University of Leeds?
I definitely think it makes me a better teacher, because I am across the new changes that are happening in industry.
So for example, when I come in to teach the students, I can tell them real life scenarios that have just happened this weekend.
So all my teaching is current.
It's up to date.
I'm experiencing what they're going to be experiencing in a couple of years time, or some of them do get work experience and then get a few freelance shifts whilst they're still at university.
So I'm experiencing it exactly the same as what they're experiencing.
Industry's changing all the time and I'm across that change because I'm involved in it.
Although getting up at three thirty in the morning, I do question it.
But when I get there, I still get the same buzz that I've always got from being a journalist and being on the radio, but it does make me a better teacher in that sense.
But it also allows me to be a kind of a connection here at the university with industry as well.
So there's a lot of great research that goes on at the University of Leeds.
And hopefully having myself in industry, I can see the research on this side that's happening.
I can see maybe where it can fit in industry, so the research can make a real difference there.
And vice versa, you know, I can see gaps that maybe industry could benefit from research that's going on here at the university.
And I can kind of help point the research towards industry to help them and industry the other way around.
It's another big thing that I think having academics who work in industry, practicing academics, I feel that's a really helpful thing for both industry and also for the institutions.
There's so many skills that transfer over, and I say this all the time too, because as you said, podcasting, I think could benefit from a lot of them.
I feel like you have a lot of those skills that you probably pull from to teach your students, but any podcast you're on, you're able to translate.
How has podcasting worked its way into your academic teaching and into the curriculum, carl?
So, we teach podcasting at the university and we use it as part of assessment as well.
So, in the third year news days that we do here, the students are broken up into teams.
So, they're one news team.
But we have an online news team, we work on the web and digital.
We have a radio news team, a TV news team, and a podcasting news team.
So the podcasters will create a journalistic podcast for that day which they then produce.
So we will use podcasting as a way of a summative assessment for the students.
But we also use it as well, for example, the Sound of Politics podcast.
It is a podcast that isn't just academic.
It's for the wider world to listen to.
But at the same time, we get political students to listen to certain episodes.
So we teach through podcasting as well.
And I'm a massive believer in, you know, the intimacy of a podcast, the ease that you can listen to a podcast.
You can do it whilst you're sat down, whilst you're traveling in, whilst you're going out for a run.
And people don't just learn the traditional ways.
There's so many different ways of learning.
So we use podcasting in that sense to get the students to listen to certain podcasts, analyze them.
Do you agree?
Do you not?
And spark that debate through podcasts.
And they're just a couple of ways that we're using podcasting here at the university as a tool for learning for students.
I love that it's not just part of the curriculum, but you're using podcasting as a tool for teaching.
Jen and I have been doing this show for a little over two years.
And I feel like in the last couple of months it just sort of seems podcasting is being used more and more as a tool for teaching actually as well too.
I think it lends itself to that because it is that kind of one on one conversation that you have and the ease of being able to, you know, sit down whilst you're having your lunch or dinner and listen to a podcast and not feel like, oh, I've got to do some work.
But you just can sit there and listen and take it in.
Topics being discussed, or topics sparking people's imaginations, that then when they come back to the sessions, they can discuss it and debate it.
And I just think it's a great vehicle for getting messages across or putting learning out there.
Carl, you had mentioned, and I sort of wanted to dig into a little bit here, is your research, which focuses on misinformation, but you had mentioned to us that that has specifically led to you researching and starting to explore podcast regulation.
So curious if you could sort of just unpack that a little bit for us.
Is regulation really needed?
Yeah, I mean, one of the unique things about podcasting is that it is so accessible and anybody can do it.
You need a microphone and a computer and you can do it.
And there's different levels, whether that's good podcasting or bad podcasting and all that, but it is there for people who've got something to say to, uh, just start up and get out there and, and do a podcast.
But there are problems that come with that.
Because as we've talked about before, when it comes to people on social media, they think they can just say whatever they want and if you say certain words, allegedly this, you can get away with it, you know, when you're within the law and it does not work like that.
And there is a lot of misinformation, a lot of disinformation out there.
I mentioned earlier about Joe Rogan's podcast in terms of, not so much misinformation, but you know, not challenging.
And some people take that as gospel.
So before I bring in the regulation side of it, there is different elements to it.
I think every single person has a responsibility, not just to, you know, I could say anything on this podcast and I would hope people would go, that's interesting but I'll just check it out and do a little bit of research myself.
As a journalist, that's what we do.
So everybody's got a responsibility not to just take everything as gospel and go, not too sure about that, I'm going to look into it.
But also, podcasters have a responsibility as well to be making sure that the information that they put out there is correct.
And in a world where the podcast industry is growing financially.
There's a lot of advertising that comes with podcasts now, if you get the numbers in, you can make this a living for yourselves.
It can become a career.
So people are wanting those clickbaits.
They're wanting that little bit of kind of old controversy, which will get more listeners coming in.
This is the point where I think regulation needs to be brought in a little bit.
And when I say regulation, I'm not talking about over in the UK, we have Ofcom that is like, you know, it's got teeth and it says, you've got to do this.
You've got to do that.
And you can't do this and you can't do that.
And there's fines, but we do need to have a look at how we are stopping that mis and disinformation going out.
And I mentioned the Nicola Bully situation, the lady from Lancashire who went missing.
Unfortunately, she'd fallen in a river, and there was no other scenario other than she'd slipped, and that was just that.
But there was all this conspiracy theory around it, and it caused so much tension.
There needs to be some kind of guidelines or some kind of framework for podcasters to sign up to.
Um, I don't think we should be liberalists about this.
You know, everyone's free to say what they want, but I don't want to be the person that says, you know, you can't say this, you can't say that.
I think as a community we need to look at this and explore it and see if there is some good practices that we all can build in and build a kind of guidelines that people sign up to.
And, and, and it's all theory at the minute.
I mean, we've got to convince people to get involved in this, but if they're the ones that have signed up and they're the ones that say we are part of this community, we are the ones that the algorithms will push if there's misinformation or disinformation.
And you could have it that likely do on some of the social media platforms, where if you see something you don't think is right, you report it.
And then it comes up with a little message on there saying that this is potentially an issue.
So the algorithms push you towards one of the podcasts who are talking about similar things that are a part of this guide.
This group, this framework, that's what I'm saying.
So, that's where my research started because there was a lot of mis and disinformation being put out there.
And I put it open to podcast creators and podcast production companies to find out what they think.
And I'm halfway through this research now, where I've got the questionnaires in.
And the next step is I'm going to be doing one to ones with some of these people who are involved in this.
I was surprised, actually, at what came back.
So, for example, we spoke to fifty-three podcasters, or podcast companies, and fifty-six percent of those said that they wanted a regulator that would be working very similar to what Ofcom does over here.
Fifty-three percent wanted the regulator to just focus on podcast standards.
And I can understand that because if you get the podcast standards up, the advertising comes and it becomes a bigger industry in that sense.
Twenty-eight percent said that they want to make sure that podcasts remain easily accessible.
So.
You know, they wanted a regulator to be involved in making sure podcasts remain easily accessible.
But the two bits that was the most interesting for me was that eight-seven percent said that they would see value in this informal guideline or a voluntary code that they would sign up to.
And Ninety-two percent recognized that podcasts have the potential to spread mis and disinformation.
They see an issue but there's still a little bit of way of how do we tackle this, because I wouldn't want it to block people from starting and setting up because that's what podcasting is about.
And it's so tricky because like we have the CRTC and I know being on radio, again, very different from podcasting.
It was like, you can't say that, you can't do this.
You'll get fired.
You got to follow the rules, but your research is just interesting that people would want a regulator.
Because also too, I'm finding with social media where you talked about you want to maybe put something similar where you could flag it if you felt that it was wrong.
I find that we're getting too quick to flag now.
So it's like, are we bogging then all these regulators, because we are in a polarizing climate.
Like, it seems to be like, either my opinion is better than your opinion, or no go.
So then it's like, are we wasting time then of people just being like, oh, okay, seven days, no, you're fine, you can proceed, you can proceed, you can proceed, just because somebody had an issue with one little thing that you were saying.
I don't think it should be taken down straight away.
I think it should just be flagged at that point.
Because then it comes back to that for only a few days, there should be a period of time that these people look at it.
But it doesn't get taken down, it's still there for people to listen to, but just flagged that this person has had this issue.
But I do appreciate what you're saying, because the world is so polarized at the moment, and you do get people who just do it for the sake of doing it.
So there has to be some way of looking at that, and again, I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is to that, but what I do think is it should be down to the communities flagging it first, and then, you know, somebody looks at this because together, as a community, we can start working.
But the problem with the polarization, as well, is, and this is something that the University of Leeds has done, this is something that a couple of newspapers have done over here.
They've now removed themselves from X because they feel, well, first of all, the university says two different things.
One, they say that they've removed themselves because we're not getting the traction, which I totally understand.
So we're not getting the number of people who are clicking on the X posts that the university was putting out.
I understand that from a business point of view, but they also say that they don't like the way that X is now, or the, the kind of community that is there.
Now I have a problem with that, because I feel, if there is an issue with a certain community just being one way or another, right, left, whatever you feel it is.
It is our job to be there to say, listen everyone, there is another point of view.
It isn't just this.
And yes, probably ninety percent of people will not let you know, oh, well, you're just this, you're just that.
But I think by pulling out of this space, we're just leaving these echo chambers for all these people to shout at each other, agree with each other, and then people feel empowered going, well, everybody is saying the same as me.
Because there's nobody challenging that opinion and challenging that view.
And I know it gets tiring, and I know it's hard work, but I don't think the right thing to do is remove ourselves from those places where this mis and disinformation is.
And that's why I think, you know, having the community flag it, but at the same time, others can flag and go, I don't think this is, and then it's the balance maybe the community could decide.
No, it's, it's a really interesting.
challenge I think we have, especially in the academic world where there's supposed to be a voice of reason and, and rigor, and we would want to be challenging different opinions, and I don't mean in a rhetoric charged way, but in a traditional academic sense of looking at both sides, you know, steel manning and reasoning.
This come up recently with one of the podcasts that we work with.
And there was initially a real sort of, it's an academic podcast and there was initially sort of a real sort of want to pull back as you described it there, Carl, like pull out almost of the conversation.
And now there's been a recent kind of almost revisit to the original mission of this podcast, which was to be a voice for science and research and almost counter to some of this anti science, which is going on out there.
And so it's interesting how the conversation of the team working on this podcast has kind of come around on it and almost like, okay, well, we actually should be in these places.
And we actually should be having a voice there.
I think collaboration is the key to this.
I mean, as we just have in this chat today, there's other things that get put out there and you're like challenging each other.
And this kind of thing needs to be talked about because there is an issue there.
It's really happening in podcasting right now.
It's really interesting.
I just want to sort of end with one different subject here.
I noticed that you are part of what's called the Education Through Podcasting Conference.
And you've got your second annual one coming up in late June.
Can you just tell us a little bit more about that?
I think that's really interesting for our audience.
I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
Yeah.
So basically EPOD, so education through podcasting is, it's the perfect way to end what we've been talking about because it's how we started, there is so many different ways of using podcasts within education these days and our conference, what we hope to do is celebrate.
So it brings researchers together, academics together, and people from industry as well.
So practitioners who all come together for this conference, over the two days, the 26th and 27th of June at Moeller College in London.
And we all come together and we talk about how we're using podcasting within education.
And again, it, you know, it's interesting to see how it is being used, how podcasts are being used by different people and across different disciplines as well.
So it naturally fits within journalism.
So I sit here and talk about it.
It naturally fits, but podcasting is being used and tweaked in the kind of way that I believe podcasting is, so my kind of view of podcasting by tutors in, say, mathematics, or in other schools within universities.
So when we all come together, it's really interesting to see and hear how other academics are using podcasting.
But it's also the practitioner side as well.
They come and they can talk about, you know, how to make it more engaging, the storytelling side of it as well.
And that's where it all comes together and we've got a call for papers out at the moment as well.
So, yeah.
I saw that.
We'll put a link to that on our show notes as well.
I did notice that on the website, the peer review committee is incredibly international.
So this isn't just a UK thing.
I noticed that there was academic people from UK, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, Italy, US, Japan, Greece.
So it's quite an international, um, focus as well too, I gather.
And we always do a book as well.
We want to get more people using podcasts, basically, within education because we see the value of it.
That's great.
I love how it's a call for papers.
So it's not just a call for join a panel or to be a speaker.
It's like you're leaning into the academic side of it, a call for papers.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I mean, yeah, call for papers because it turns into a book.
One of the universities we work on, they actually bake their podcasts into their case studies so students will listen.
But there's also topics to let us know about their programs because they do a lot of MBA programs.
They do a two pronged approach, case studies for students, and then not only that, getting new students through engaging topics.
I'm just about to launch a another podcast here at the university called PREA, which is about pedagogical research.
And we're getting students involved to talk about how innovative pedagogies or different ways of teaching within the university has impacted them.
But we get the tutors on to talk about the projects that they've done as well.
So long and short of it, the students are listening because they're hearing about the education side of it.
But tutors are also listening to it because we want to learn what other, um, academics are doing within their teaching about new ways of teaching.
So we're trying to aim it out at the whole university and then further afield as well after the university, from this one out to other tutors and other institutes.
Oh, amazing.
So thanks so much, Carl, for joining us today on Continuing Studies.
It was a really interesting conversation.
I quite enjoyed everything.
Thank you.
Wow.
Carl had a lot of really cool stuff to talk about there.
I quite enjoyed our conversation with him.
Always love talking to people around the world as well and getting insight into their lives.
I'm super tempted to go to the Education Through Podcasting Conference in June.
I just don't know how I'm going to swing it all.
I'm going to try to go to the London Podcast Conference in May and then this thing in June, but maybe I have to pick one or the other.
No, just live in London from May to June.
Yes.
It's a very inexpensive city to go and live in for a couple of months.
Just like Vancouver.
Just don't think of the pound conversion.
We're good.
Right.
Anyways, I'm really excited for what he's doing.
Because again, even though we're doing ours in Chicago, I think it's really cool that we're starting to see these little podcast conferences in the post secondary education pop up because there's so many of us and we have learned through this podcast that we love connecting with each other.
And everyone has their own little difference on what they do in the podcasting space.
Yeah, absolutely.
And also just fascinated by Carl's research within regulation for podcasting, he's just like our previous guest, has so much going on in the podcasting space.
He's just really smart and switched on and the fact that he's thinking about regulation and obviously that is a whole like hour topic or more, but it's something that I think about coming from traditional media.
But also, like he said, with some of the true crime stuff too, it's like, how do we make sure that everybody's on the up and up and we're not ruining people's lives that we don't need to?
But that is a huge question to answer.
Yeah, we're working on a true crime podcast, and it really got me thinking about that, too, when he talked about that.
Anyway, really enjoyed it.
Jen, why don't you read us out?
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