WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.781 --> 00:00:04.351 CJ: What is up, Colin? 00:00:04.351 --> 00:00:04.891 How's it going? 00:00:05.295 --> 00:00:05.885 Colin: Pretty good. 00:00:05.895 --> 00:00:07.195 How's how's the week? 00:00:07.767 --> 00:00:08.307 CJ: It's great. 00:00:08.317 --> 00:00:10.337 This is the final week of school. 00:00:10.537 --> 00:00:12.207 The kids are done. 00:00:12.227 --> 00:00:15.457 Officially done with elementary school, which is just mind blowing. 00:00:15.957 --> 00:00:16.777 So, yeah. 00:00:16.807 --> 00:00:20.017 It's all intermediate school and beyond from here. 00:00:20.027 --> 00:00:20.637 Colin: Very cool. 00:00:20.687 --> 00:00:24.157 CJ: Lots of end of year activities. 00:00:24.157 --> 00:00:28.157 They've had like field days and field trips and plays and all kinds 00:00:28.157 --> 00:00:29.407 of stuff wrapping up the year. 00:00:29.927 --> 00:00:30.577 And, 00:00:30.627 --> 00:00:31.277 Colin: it's summertime. 00:00:31.552 --> 00:00:33.452 CJ: I think they're, yeah, it's summertime. 00:00:33.482 --> 00:00:34.592 It is full, yeah. 00:00:34.592 --> 00:00:35.752 Full force summertime. 00:00:36.052 --> 00:00:39.292 Last night we did a little fire pit in the backyard and they were 00:00:39.292 --> 00:00:43.122 jumping on the trampoline and just, yeah, it feels awesome. 00:00:43.282 --> 00:00:43.672 So, 00:00:43.827 --> 00:00:44.167 Colin: cool. 00:00:44.682 --> 00:00:45.202 How about you? 00:00:45.222 --> 00:00:46.662 Getting out, doing anything? 00:00:47.612 --> 00:00:48.722 Fitness wise? 00:00:48.977 --> 00:00:51.047 CJ: we're yeah. 00:00:51.147 --> 00:00:52.077 Lots of. 00:00:52.742 --> 00:00:53.582 Lots of fun stuff. 00:00:53.582 --> 00:00:59.062 So we went for the first time ever to visit New York city a couple weekends ago. 00:00:59.682 --> 00:01:04.962 And Nicole and I booked classes where you can take classes at 00:01:04.972 --> 00:01:08.392 the Peloton studios in NYC PSNY. 00:01:08.592 --> 00:01:12.962 So we went to went to the studio and did two live rides with Camila 00:01:12.962 --> 00:01:15.892 Ramon and one was a reggaeton ride. 00:01:15.902 --> 00:01:18.962 And one was like a low impact ride in the studio. 00:01:18.962 --> 00:01:20.002 It was so awesome. 00:01:20.012 --> 00:01:21.212 Like it is. 00:01:21.832 --> 00:01:23.582 A full on experience to go there. 00:01:23.582 --> 00:01:25.372 It's like an Apple store type thing. 00:01:25.372 --> 00:01:29.682 And you go in and they have all these different bike studios that when you're 00:01:29.702 --> 00:01:33.552 inside them feel like super, super legit, almost like movie studios. 00:01:34.042 --> 00:01:36.602 And there's, I don't know, it was, it was cool to see. 00:01:37.152 --> 00:01:40.222 The instructors, we bumped into a handful of like Peloton instructors 00:01:40.312 --> 00:01:45.502 and the, when you see them on camera, you think they're just normal. 00:01:45.902 --> 00:01:48.352 Like they've got like the same energy that you have, you 00:01:48.352 --> 00:01:50.062 know, you're like what's yeah. 00:01:50.062 --> 00:01:53.732 What's mind blowing is that in person you can tell that their energy 00:01:53.742 --> 00:01:59.012 is like level 9, 000 and they're like just so pumped and so on. 00:01:59.102 --> 00:01:59.632 It's. 00:01:59.842 --> 00:02:01.592 It was really, really impressive to watch. 00:02:01.602 --> 00:02:07.532 She was like speaking in English, speaking in Spanish, like singing lyrics, giving 00:02:07.532 --> 00:02:13.082 instructions, dancing, like every single like millisecond of the entire production. 00:02:13.342 --> 00:02:16.597 She was just like on point and it was, it was, Amazing. 00:02:16.597 --> 00:02:17.557 It was so cool to see. 00:02:18.037 --> 00:02:20.237 And yeah, it was, it was tons of fun. 00:02:20.237 --> 00:02:26.037 It also like inspired me to put more energy into like my own YouTube videos. 00:02:26.117 --> 00:02:31.187 Like they're not, they're not exercise videos obviously, but like definitely 00:02:31.307 --> 00:02:34.747 It was inspiring to just be like way over the top and super energetic 00:02:34.747 --> 00:02:38.677 and super, you know, enthusiastic about whatever's going on because 00:02:38.677 --> 00:02:40.337 I think it just makes for better 00:02:40.662 --> 00:02:41.052 Colin: Yeah. 00:02:41.102 --> 00:02:45.772 Are those rides that are, are those being cast to people who are at home? 00:02:47.107 --> 00:02:47.417 CJ: yes. 00:02:47.427 --> 00:02:50.217 So their lives, if you're at home, you could take it or 00:02:50.527 --> 00:02:51.557 you can take it later to you. 00:02:51.567 --> 00:02:53.067 Like they they record them and take them on 00:02:53.372 --> 00:02:54.552 Colin: that's kind of like what we've talked about. 00:02:54.552 --> 00:02:59.472 Like when you record anything, you kind of have to dial it up so that it comes 00:02:59.472 --> 00:03:04.102 across at a hundred when you're watching it, because when you record it, if you 00:03:04.102 --> 00:03:05.942 record it at 90, it's going to be like 70. 00:03:06.102 --> 00:03:08.852 And so you got it to go at 130. 00:03:08.977 --> 00:03:11.437 And that's something I try to practice here. 00:03:11.917 --> 00:03:15.557 The other thing that reminds me is like the Aeros tour and Taylor Swift. 00:03:15.907 --> 00:03:20.867 I think both Taylor Swift and then Beyonce for her things, like they will 00:03:20.907 --> 00:03:27.727 sing their songs on a treadmill and just like training, cross training, 00:03:27.727 --> 00:03:32.317 like doing, you know, taking it to 9, 000 and so that they can, you know, be 00:03:32.327 --> 00:03:37.407 physically fit to pull off these amazing shows and have, you know, such like. 00:03:37.662 --> 00:03:42.932 physicality and presence in, in all the things that they do, which takes 00:03:42.932 --> 00:03:46.112 a lot and it's hard to see when you see it like just on a screen. 00:03:46.112 --> 00:03:48.702 Yeah. 00:03:48.747 --> 00:03:52.737 CJ: don't really appreciate it nearly as much until you're in person. 00:03:52.757 --> 00:03:57.097 And yeah, you got glitter flying all over the room and it's like, 00:03:57.442 --> 00:04:02.642 Colin: Peloton is an interesting one to me because like I, so as like, as far as like 00:04:02.652 --> 00:04:06.552 stocks and stuff, I mostly do indexes, but Peloton is one that I had been 00:04:06.552 --> 00:04:12.752 buying just because it was so low for so long, but obviously it had a huge surge. 00:04:12.852 --> 00:04:13.932 During COVID right. 00:04:13.932 --> 00:04:18.962 And then a lot of the cycling companies, the tech companies around fitness and 00:04:18.962 --> 00:04:23.332 running and all these things have kind of taken a huge hit since, since things 00:04:23.332 --> 00:04:27.572 opened back up, but like this experience you're talking about is like hard 00:04:27.652 --> 00:04:29.642 to pull off for somebody else to do. 00:04:30.022 --> 00:04:35.442 And I see this in the hotels now where you can just like, they have Pelotons where 00:04:35.442 --> 00:04:39.612 you can sign in with your own account and like you can train, you know, you're not. 00:04:39.847 --> 00:04:43.227 Using some foreign equipment, it's the brand and people want to use it. 00:04:43.497 --> 00:04:46.257 Cause I think Peloton users that I've talked to, like, they love it. 00:04:46.337 --> 00:04:48.367 I've actually never used one. 00:04:48.777 --> 00:04:51.387 We've talked about you and your treadmill, the Peloton tread. 00:04:51.767 --> 00:04:56.247 But it's interesting that it's still like so low and still taking those hits. 00:04:56.817 --> 00:05:00.077 I'll be curious to see, like, if they go more. 00:05:00.217 --> 00:05:05.907 this like experience route or like we're moving into these new apartments and the 00:05:05.907 --> 00:05:10.297 gym just has like a row of Pelotons that you sign in with your account, which might 00:05:10.297 --> 00:05:15.267 be the thing that gets me to sign up for just the like the pass so that I have an 00:05:15.267 --> 00:05:17.147 account to log into when I'm in the gym. 00:05:17.602 --> 00:05:22.132 But we'll see, like, there's a lot there that makes that interesting to 00:05:22.132 --> 00:05:25.432 me in terms of like, now I have an account I can take with me when I'm 00:05:25.432 --> 00:05:29.792 traveling and still like get the gym in, in a really easy way, instead of like 00:05:30.062 --> 00:05:33.642 being in a city that I might not know where to run or where to go do stuff. 00:05:35.657 --> 00:05:36.107 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:36.117 --> 00:05:42.637 There is, I think having a Peloton at the hotel is a pretty big draw. 00:05:42.667 --> 00:05:44.847 In fact, they have hotel finder. 00:05:45.037 --> 00:05:45.867 one Peloton. 00:05:45.867 --> 00:05:47.827 com, which we can drop in the show notes. 00:05:48.317 --> 00:05:52.067 And it's like this tool that helps you find hotels that have Pelotons. 00:05:52.487 --> 00:05:52.927 And. 00:05:53.257 --> 00:05:56.057 That was like my first experience with it was, 00:05:58.177 --> 00:06:03.697 going to San Francisco for three weeks to onboard to Stripe and the 00:06:03.697 --> 00:06:05.287 place that we stayed had a Peloton. 00:06:05.287 --> 00:06:06.287 I was like, what the heck is this thing? 00:06:06.297 --> 00:06:07.037 Let's give it a shot. 00:06:07.347 --> 00:06:08.397 You know, tried it out. 00:06:08.427 --> 00:06:11.387 And then you know, several months later I was like, I think. 00:06:11.652 --> 00:06:12.992 that would be really good for us. 00:06:13.092 --> 00:06:18.832 And so we got one right before the pandemic and ended up, I mean, 00:06:18.872 --> 00:06:21.972 I've done over 1100 rides now. 00:06:22.432 --> 00:06:26.912 So for us, it's just been like a really great tool for exercise. 00:06:27.402 --> 00:06:27.572 Colin: Yeah. 00:06:27.572 --> 00:06:31.002 There's the gamification element and tracking and stats 00:06:31.012 --> 00:06:32.582 for people who want stats. 00:06:32.582 --> 00:06:33.177 Yeah. 00:06:34.332 --> 00:06:36.972 CJ: And yeah, there's lots of different programs, lots of different, 00:06:37.432 --> 00:06:40.232 there's, I feel like they, they have something for everyone, right? 00:06:40.232 --> 00:06:43.272 There's stuff for the, the metrics nerds, there's stuff for the people who just 00:06:43.272 --> 00:06:46.752 want to be entertained or have fun, the stuff for beginners, stuff for people 00:06:46.752 --> 00:06:48.472 who want to be super hardcore about it. 00:06:48.942 --> 00:06:51.752 And Yeah, we've, we've just had tons of fun and it was awesome 00:06:51.752 --> 00:06:56.112 to go to like the Mecca, which is like, you know, the, the the studio. 00:06:56.112 --> 00:06:57.582 So that was, that was awesome. 00:06:57.647 --> 00:06:58.367 Colin: Very cool. 00:07:00.792 --> 00:07:04.952 CJ: I know last time that we were on, we talked about RTO, the Reno Tahoe 00:07:04.972 --> 00:07:06.322 open that you were going to run. 00:07:06.732 --> 00:07:08.882 And I saw some pictures on Instagram. 00:07:08.882 --> 00:07:11.202 It seems like that was tons of fun. 00:07:11.237 --> 00:07:12.077 Colin: it was a good time. 00:07:12.087 --> 00:07:13.947 It was my 10th RTO. 00:07:13.947 --> 00:07:19.477 So I finally like added up all the legs that I've run and I have like 00:07:20.107 --> 00:07:22.367 four more slots that I have to finish. 00:07:22.367 --> 00:07:25.897 So it'll take, if I do it the normal way, it'll take another four years to 00:07:26.507 --> 00:07:29.037 have completed all of the, the legs. 00:07:29.507 --> 00:07:34.027 I think there's like less than 50 people who have done all of them so far. 00:07:34.487 --> 00:07:35.667 So we'll see. 00:07:35.717 --> 00:07:39.062 I think there's, I could do another, like I've done a few ultras where 00:07:39.062 --> 00:07:41.132 I've done multiple likes in a year. 00:07:41.132 --> 00:07:44.902 So like if I do two ultras, I could be done in two years, but I 00:07:44.902 --> 00:07:46.432 think we'll take it nice and slow. 00:07:46.432 --> 00:07:51.482 The, the doing it for 24 hours, it took us 25 hours this year. 00:07:51.922 --> 00:07:54.422 You only really get like one hour of sleep. 00:07:54.492 --> 00:07:59.172 And speaking of metrics, like you can try to get sleep whenever you can. 00:07:59.172 --> 00:08:00.592 It's just like people you're hyped up. 00:08:00.592 --> 00:08:01.352 You just ran. 00:08:01.787 --> 00:08:04.577 You are trying to eat when you think you should eat. 00:08:04.627 --> 00:08:06.377 And then you're like, when should I have coffee? 00:08:06.377 --> 00:08:10.677 When should I, it's just like your body is like, what are you doing to me? 00:08:11.127 --> 00:08:15.617 And you know, I've been using the whoop band for almost five years now. 00:08:15.617 --> 00:08:19.677 And every, every year you can see when I do RTO, cause it's just like 00:08:19.687 --> 00:08:23.477 the worst, like they have a joke about the 1 percent club and that's 00:08:23.497 --> 00:08:25.117 when you have a 1 percent recovery. 00:08:25.522 --> 00:08:30.252 And so I got the 1 percent badge again this year for just the worst sleep. 00:08:30.292 --> 00:08:31.602 And you're also running. 00:08:31.602 --> 00:08:35.502 So I had like a my run, the hardest run I had was eight miles. 00:08:35.512 --> 00:08:41.862 Six of it was uphill at one o'clock in the heat and then two miles down after that. 00:08:41.862 --> 00:08:42.852 So got it done. 00:08:42.852 --> 00:08:44.112 Felt pretty trained. 00:08:44.172 --> 00:08:47.632 And yeah, I kind of, this will go into what we talk about later, but, you 00:08:47.632 --> 00:08:51.482 know, we've, we always like to talk about work life balance, but I'm still 00:08:51.482 --> 00:08:56.012 trying to find more ways to get away from the screen and, and get out there 00:08:56.017 --> 00:08:59.762 and, you know, obviously I can just run or use Peloton or things like that, but 00:08:59.762 --> 00:09:03.842 these, these kinds of like tent pole races are like things that keep me. 00:09:04.132 --> 00:09:07.132 To it, because if I'm not trained, I'm going to suffer more. 00:09:07.132 --> 00:09:12.722 So having a few events planned out has really helped me do that. 00:09:13.292 --> 00:09:16.422 So always looking for like the, what the next couple are. 00:09:16.422 --> 00:09:21.252 And of course the memes and the jokes on, on Instagram and stuff are like, once 00:09:21.252 --> 00:09:23.362 you hit 30, once you hit 40, it's like. 00:09:24.047 --> 00:09:26.177 It's time to run a marathon, right? 00:09:26.247 --> 00:09:28.277 You're, this little thing in the back of your brain, you're like, 00:09:28.327 --> 00:09:29.647 I should start trail running. 00:09:30.047 --> 00:09:32.997 These little things that happen and I, I think those are probably 00:09:32.997 --> 00:09:34.717 good midlife crisises to have. 00:09:34.727 --> 00:09:38.247 So so yeah, if anyone's listening and wants to get into running or trail 00:09:38.247 --> 00:09:42.237 running or pelotoning, you know, shoot us, shoot us any questions you have, 00:09:42.237 --> 00:09:46.467 but really just, Get out there and start like, you know, trail running 00:09:46.467 --> 00:09:50.307 is like hiking with maybe a little bit of jogging on the downhill. 00:09:50.317 --> 00:09:54.507 So it doesn't have to be like what you see, you know, all the pros doing 00:09:54.507 --> 00:09:55.817 like, make it, make it your own. 00:09:57.642 --> 00:10:01.042 CJ: So, one thing that I was wondering about with RTO is, I 00:10:01.052 --> 00:10:05.082 thought that they, you had like the team follow you in the van, right? 00:10:05.702 --> 00:10:08.502 But there's sections where you're not running on the road? 00:10:10.057 --> 00:10:10.617 Colin: Yeah. 00:10:10.717 --> 00:10:13.147 CJ: so then you like run away and then you meet up with them at a 00:10:13.562 --> 00:10:18.022 Colin: So my leg, the eight mile one, you can't have someone follow you. 00:10:18.052 --> 00:10:21.412 Cause it's like a dirt road up a mountain, it's like a mountain fire road. 00:10:21.562 --> 00:10:23.072 So there's a few like that. 00:10:23.072 --> 00:10:26.322 There's a downhill from Virginia city down Geiger grade. 00:10:26.632 --> 00:10:29.492 It used to go down Geiger grade, which is a road, but it's like 00:10:29.492 --> 00:10:32.182 it's super sketchy, scary road. 00:10:32.552 --> 00:10:34.802 So now you actually go down a fire road, which is like. 00:10:35.087 --> 00:10:39.787 Super like just rocks and scree and like a lot of bloody knees at the end 00:10:39.787 --> 00:10:41.357 of it for a lot of people who fall. 00:10:41.677 --> 00:10:44.847 But that one, the van can't follow you obviously down that. 00:10:45.187 --> 00:10:48.217 And then the van can't follow you on mine for the one that I did. 00:10:48.227 --> 00:10:53.007 You have to carry water because it's usually during the middle 00:10:53.007 --> 00:10:54.187 of the day for most people. 00:10:54.467 --> 00:10:58.597 And it's, it was thankfully not as hot as it is today, but it was hot. 00:10:58.657 --> 00:11:00.877 It was like 85, which. 00:11:01.617 --> 00:11:04.947 It's not as hot as it could be in other parts of the world, obviously, 00:11:04.947 --> 00:11:10.117 but like right now it's 95 and I would not want to be doing that in 95. 00:11:10.157 --> 00:11:14.827 So yeah, so for the most part you have two vans and the sleep that you can 00:11:14.827 --> 00:11:18.487 usually get is when the other van is running, you try to get your sleep 00:11:18.487 --> 00:11:22.147 in, but you still got to also go to where the van's going to meet you. 00:11:22.147 --> 00:11:24.437 So you have to spend some of that time driving. 00:11:25.052 --> 00:11:30.152 to the next spot and then, you know, either crash on the side of the van, 00:11:30.162 --> 00:11:35.842 like just not crash the van, but take, take some sleep, like in a sleeping bag 00:11:35.842 --> 00:11:41.212 next to the van at the, the trading, at the, the switch point, or like what we 00:11:41.212 --> 00:11:44.382 do is we rent a motel six and our van. 00:11:44.702 --> 00:11:49.342 uses it and then the next van, van two comes and joins and takes that 00:11:49.342 --> 00:11:52.152 room while we go run and then then they meet us at the next spot. 00:11:52.152 --> 00:11:56.272 So it's nice to just have a little spot to do a little reset and move on. 00:11:57.587 --> 00:11:58.057 CJ: Nice. 00:11:59.237 --> 00:11:59.617 Gosh. 00:11:59.767 --> 00:12:03.797 So the, every year that you've done it, have you done different segments or is 00:12:03.797 --> 00:12:07.227 there like a segment that you run every time or you're trying to collect them 00:12:07.262 --> 00:12:07.602 Colin: Yeah. 00:12:07.602 --> 00:12:11.632 So there's 12 total and I've done it 10 times, but I've, I've done 00:12:11.632 --> 00:12:13.677 it I've done the ultra three times. 00:12:13.677 --> 00:12:17.367 So like I've technically run one, two, three, like 16 legs. 00:12:17.387 --> 00:12:20.657 So I just, I've done a lot of the same legs multiple times. 00:12:20.657 --> 00:12:25.377 So I subconsciously have favorites, I guess, cause I didn't realize that. 00:12:25.637 --> 00:12:27.717 So I went through and looked at all the ones that I'm missing. 00:12:27.717 --> 00:12:30.637 And now the next couple of years, I'm going to try to knock those ones off. 00:12:30.647 --> 00:12:33.887 So I have two legs in van one and two legs in van two to do. 00:12:34.297 --> 00:12:35.887 And we'll see how that goes. 00:12:37.077 --> 00:12:37.577 CJ: Nice. 00:12:38.147 --> 00:12:41.327 And when you say ultra, is that a separate race from RTO 00:12:41.327 --> 00:12:42.167 or does that just mean you're 00:12:42.352 --> 00:12:46.062 Colin: Yeah, the ultra is so normally it's done with 12 people. 00:12:46.292 --> 00:12:52.242 There's 36 legs, so the ultra is usually 8, 6, 4 people. 00:12:52.292 --> 00:12:54.502 There was a year where one person did the entire thing. 00:12:55.062 --> 00:12:58.947 So that one was pretty gnarly, they did it, they started earlier. 00:12:59.177 --> 00:13:02.177 And it took them like two days, I think, to do it. 00:13:02.207 --> 00:13:06.557 So, yeah, so I've always done it with six people. 00:13:06.567 --> 00:13:10.647 So you end up doing double the legs, which is a little bit more brutal 00:13:10.667 --> 00:13:12.177 cause you don't have the other van. 00:13:12.177 --> 00:13:13.967 So you don't have any sleep really. 00:13:13.967 --> 00:13:18.177 Like you can try, but it depends on how you cut up, which, 00:13:18.207 --> 00:13:20.127 which legs each person does. 00:13:20.157 --> 00:13:24.707 And a lot of spreadsheets, a lot of like timing, a lot of like stopwatches 00:13:24.707 --> 00:13:26.877 and stuff, but it's good fun. 00:13:26.877 --> 00:13:28.567 And, and it also like, you know. 00:13:28.812 --> 00:13:33.782 Gets me again, just to like, I am not going to be at the computer that week. 00:13:35.452 --> 00:13:40.082 It's like, and then you got recovery and all of that afterwards, but good times. 00:13:40.222 --> 00:13:40.552 CJ: yeah, 00:13:42.692 --> 00:13:43.392 yeah, that's great. 00:13:43.422 --> 00:13:47.432 Great way to get out, especially in the Reno Tahoe area. 00:13:48.102 --> 00:13:48.902 Get out and see some. 00:13:49.482 --> 00:13:50.242 Colin: It was beautiful. 00:13:50.382 --> 00:13:52.322 So that's the fitness update. 00:13:52.782 --> 00:13:53.862 What are you what are you building? 00:13:53.952 --> 00:13:54.652 What are you working on? 00:13:55.672 --> 00:13:56.172 CJ: Oh man. 00:13:56.172 --> 00:13:58.312 We're building a lot at craftwork. 00:13:58.352 --> 00:14:02.422 We, I think we've talked about calendars a bunch of different times, and we're 00:14:02.422 --> 00:14:08.472 finally to a place where we can interact with a calendar for building shifts 00:14:08.502 --> 00:14:14.292 and timesheets and tracking approvals and understanding who's where, and 00:14:14.332 --> 00:14:16.292 just this week we started adding. 00:14:16.612 --> 00:14:20.292 The concept of different markets, meaning like different cities that we're 00:14:20.292 --> 00:14:22.572 going to be able to like expand to. 00:14:22.632 --> 00:14:28.512 So if you're looking at a calendar for Charlotte, you'll see like, here's 00:14:28.522 --> 00:14:32.042 all the projects that are happening in Charlotte, North Carolina, and all of the 00:14:32.482 --> 00:14:38.012 crews and painters and drivers who are in Charlotte and who's booked, who's not 00:14:38.012 --> 00:14:41.212 booked, what's happening at the project. 00:14:41.212 --> 00:14:41.892 Are we painting? 00:14:41.892 --> 00:14:42.932 Are we pressure washing? 00:14:42.932 --> 00:14:45.132 Like, is this an interior, exterior, et cetera? 00:14:45.572 --> 00:14:48.942 So that's been pretty fun getting that over the line. 00:14:48.972 --> 00:14:53.862 And this is another example of a tool where we'll sort of collapse down a third 00:14:53.862 --> 00:14:58.312 party tool that the team has been using so they can just use our our software. 00:14:58.312 --> 00:15:02.152 So it's been Almost actually it was just, just this week. 00:15:02.162 --> 00:15:06.012 It's been one year since we broke ground on the rails app and we kind of 00:15:06.012 --> 00:15:09.712 did like a little Spotify wrapped type situation about you know, like where 00:15:09.712 --> 00:15:13.792 are we at with the code and how many PRS we do and how many lines of code 00:15:13.792 --> 00:15:14.992 have we written and things like that. 00:15:15.392 --> 00:15:17.202 And it was pretty crazy to see. 00:15:17.442 --> 00:15:22.002 Like we basically replaced a whole chat system. 00:15:22.172 --> 00:15:25.992 We replaced an entire, like Google calendaring system. 00:15:26.002 --> 00:15:28.772 We replaced a whole bunch of features that were being used in notion. 00:15:29.312 --> 00:15:31.022 We replaced two way email. 00:15:31.032 --> 00:15:34.892 We replaced like yeah, like lots and lots of these different little. 00:15:35.427 --> 00:15:39.927 Things that and this one is like one of the, one of the last ones is a 00:15:39.997 --> 00:15:44.057 tool that we use called deputy for managing shifts and timesheets and 00:15:44.407 --> 00:15:45.817 clock in and clock out and stuff. 00:15:45.817 --> 00:15:50.417 So slowly but surely we're building all that functionality into the product. 00:15:50.417 --> 00:15:50.687 And 00:15:50.727 --> 00:15:55.407 Colin: a few, a few episodes we talked about API platform risk and this sounds 00:15:55.407 --> 00:16:00.447 like a lot of those things you're just checking off and reducing the risk. 00:16:00.447 --> 00:16:05.377 And I know we've, we've talked about build versus buy a lot, but you know, 00:16:05.817 --> 00:16:11.127 part of that equation is so much of the like integration points and 00:16:11.127 --> 00:16:12.867 the headaches that you also adopt. 00:16:12.897 --> 00:16:19.957 And like you guys are, you know, able to own that capacity, which is good. 00:16:20.057 --> 00:16:24.007 And of course, as I hear you list off all those things, I hear like the whole 00:16:24.007 --> 00:16:26.117 internet, but Rails, Rails doesn't scale. 00:16:26.117 --> 00:16:27.667 CJ Rails doesn't work. 00:16:28.577 --> 00:16:29.627 How has Rails been? 00:16:30.902 --> 00:16:31.532 CJ: it's great. 00:16:31.532 --> 00:16:32.052 I love it. 00:16:32.082 --> 00:16:33.032 I love working with it. 00:16:33.052 --> 00:16:37.482 We've definitely hit a few like scaling things. 00:16:37.492 --> 00:16:42.372 Like most of the time at the, well, yeah, most of the time, if something 00:16:42.372 --> 00:16:46.322 is slow, it's because we have some naive query that's happening somewhere 00:16:46.322 --> 00:16:50.702 and it's not being cached or we like just don't You can see that pagination 00:16:50.712 --> 00:16:53.452 or, you know, there's just like little, little things here and there. 00:16:53.452 --> 00:16:58.762 Like we show a badge in one of the navigation menus that tells you 00:16:58.762 --> 00:17:00.542 how many unread messages you have. 00:17:01.062 --> 00:17:06.062 And we just like re query every time you load the page for. 00:17:06.367 --> 00:17:10.847 Like show me all the messages you have read and then give me the 00:17:10.847 --> 00:17:14.497 Delta between that and like how many other messages there are. 00:17:14.597 --> 00:17:18.977 And so yeah, like low hanging fruit stuff where we need to add 00:17:18.977 --> 00:17:20.737 like a little Redis caching layer. 00:17:20.767 --> 00:17:22.787 But other than that, it's been super fun. 00:17:22.787 --> 00:17:27.717 We've been using hotwire and turbo a ton and it has worked surprisingly well. 00:17:27.717 --> 00:17:28.177 So. 00:17:28.312 --> 00:17:30.522 We just added a, there was a request for a feature. 00:17:30.522 --> 00:17:32.832 So we have a command palette thing using ninja keys. 00:17:32.832 --> 00:17:36.422 I don't know if you've seen that, but yeah, senior like similar to in 00:17:36.422 --> 00:17:40.002 linear where you can do like command K or you can use the slash key to 00:17:40.502 --> 00:17:41.952 pop open a little command palette. 00:17:41.972 --> 00:17:46.092 We have a command palette for jumping around and there was a request to like 00:17:46.572 --> 00:17:50.662 add a feature where in the command palette you could see recently viewed projects. 00:17:51.867 --> 00:17:56.127 And I was like, at the same time I was thinking it would be nice to 00:17:56.127 --> 00:17:59.787 have the experience that you have in Google docs, where you have like, you 00:17:59.787 --> 00:18:02.617 know, everyone's face who's viewing the doc right now in the top, right. 00:18:03.087 --> 00:18:08.237 And it was pretty fast to get up and running with action cable and just showing 00:18:08.237 --> 00:18:11.937 who's there real time and then collecting up all those project views into some 00:18:11.947 --> 00:18:15.577 models and then spitting that out as like you know, recently viewed projects. 00:18:15.587 --> 00:18:18.907 So we have kind of like a LRU cache type situation for. 00:18:19.212 --> 00:18:20.102 The command palette. 00:18:20.102 --> 00:18:21.952 So you can quickly bring up recently viewed. 00:18:22.432 --> 00:18:26.652 Pages and you can also see who's on the page that you're viewing and yeah, 00:18:26.652 --> 00:18:27.852 I've been really pleased with that. 00:18:27.882 --> 00:18:32.542 I think we have followed convention, it's really benefited us. 00:18:33.172 --> 00:18:37.532 So yeah, I wrote a blog post that we can leave a link to with just like some 00:18:37.532 --> 00:18:42.432 reflections on the last year and also just like things like rules of thumb that 00:18:42.432 --> 00:18:46.232 we've sort of picked up for rails over the years that folks might be interested in. 00:18:46.342 --> 00:18:50.332 I think in particular, I've gotten very opinionated about enums and 00:18:50.332 --> 00:18:53.532 like not to use them certain ways. 00:18:53.542 --> 00:18:56.202 So if you're curious, like I don't reject that up, 00:18:56.812 --> 00:18:57.852 Colin: That's, that's a good one. 00:18:57.852 --> 00:19:00.462 I'll have to read it because we have the similar things. 00:19:00.462 --> 00:19:03.752 We've, I've come, there's like the rails, there's a lot of different 00:19:03.762 --> 00:19:05.002 opinions about that in rails. 00:19:05.032 --> 00:19:11.172 And then I've now learned a lot about this in terms of we use a lot of like integer. 00:19:11.442 --> 00:19:12.072 Enums. 00:19:12.122 --> 00:19:16.632 And the nice thing is you don't end up having to rename them later. 00:19:16.712 --> 00:19:18.922 Like when you're like, we're going to reuse this or change it. 00:19:19.232 --> 00:19:24.142 You don't end up with like install v2 final final. 00:19:25.582 --> 00:19:25.932 Right. 00:19:25.932 --> 00:19:29.432 So you'd be like, well, now zero is this instead, or one is this, 00:19:29.452 --> 00:19:34.602 but yeah, it can be enums or there's a lot of foot guns there. 00:19:35.397 --> 00:19:35.847 CJ: Totally. 00:19:36.027 --> 00:19:36.477 Yes. 00:19:37.007 --> 00:19:40.517 Yeah, I think there was, there was, there was a video that I made on 00:19:40.517 --> 00:19:44.407 YouTube and someone in the comments was like, why don't you just like, 00:19:44.417 --> 00:19:48.917 it's a best practice to always have like store integer values for enums. 00:19:48.947 --> 00:19:52.767 And so I just like trusted this random person who left a comment and 00:19:52.767 --> 00:19:54.847 I was like, Oh, that's good feedback. 00:19:54.847 --> 00:19:58.097 I'm going to use that now that someone on the internet said it was a best practice. 00:19:58.107 --> 00:20:02.122 And I like, didn't really like look into it, but I was just like, Yeah. 00:20:02.122 --> 00:20:02.872 I internalized it. 00:20:02.902 --> 00:20:05.342 I was like, okay, well maybe this person must've been right. 00:20:05.342 --> 00:20:08.922 And like, surely for performance, it's better to store them as 00:20:08.932 --> 00:20:11.222 integer values instead of the string values in the database. 00:20:11.242 --> 00:20:16.212 But the reality is like, as soon as we had downstream services hooked up 00:20:16.212 --> 00:20:21.312 directly to Postgres for our like business intelligence tools, now like everyone 00:20:21.312 --> 00:20:25.152 needs access to your Ruby model, like your actual like Ruby code to know like 00:20:25.227 --> 00:20:25.437 Colin: Yeah. 00:20:25.437 --> 00:20:26.607 What is one, what is 00:20:26.622 --> 00:20:26.922 CJ: is. 00:20:27.342 --> 00:20:28.392 Yeah, exactly. 00:20:28.997 --> 00:20:32.337 And so now we have these like giant select case statements in all these 00:20:32.337 --> 00:20:37.307 third parties and anytime an enum value changes, now you have to go 00:20:37.307 --> 00:20:38.747 update it in the third party too. 00:20:38.787 --> 00:20:39.117 So 00:20:39.767 --> 00:20:42.257 Colin: like you have to have a response model or something in an 00:20:42.257 --> 00:20:47.287 API to make sure that you translate the enums to a nice string value. 00:20:47.287 --> 00:20:50.747 Or you, I guess you could return the integer, but now you're telling 00:20:50.747 --> 00:20:55.597 developers into like either create a library that then translates those 00:20:55.597 --> 00:20:57.432 into whatever those values are. 00:20:59.057 --> 00:20:59.417 Yeah. 00:21:00.347 --> 00:21:04.637 CJ: there was, there was other, like the other story that I might tell is that like 00:21:05.277 --> 00:21:10.827 we started out with what I thought was going to be a small set of enum values. 00:21:11.387 --> 00:21:16.077 And over time it was, it was to represent types of services 00:21:16.087 --> 00:21:17.067 that we provide basically. 00:21:17.067 --> 00:21:18.377 And it was like, Oh, we're going to paint the walls. 00:21:18.377 --> 00:21:20.447 You can paint the ceiling, paint trim. 00:21:20.887 --> 00:21:23.837 And over time the team wanted to like adjust and shift with 00:21:23.837 --> 00:21:26.627 those meant and add more. 00:21:27.047 --> 00:21:30.127 And so as we started adding more union values, we got to like, 00:21:30.177 --> 00:21:31.967 Over 25 or 26 or something. 00:21:31.967 --> 00:21:35.727 And then we started to like encode things into the string value. 00:21:35.727 --> 00:21:39.827 That was like, Oh, paint underscore square foot, underscore 00:21:40.397 --> 00:21:41.837 brick, underscore sighting. 00:21:41.867 --> 00:21:44.547 And that meant that it was a paint thing that we're going to do. 00:21:44.557 --> 00:21:45.847 And it was square foot based. 00:21:45.857 --> 00:21:46.807 And it was this other thing. 00:21:46.807 --> 00:21:53.567 It's like, Oh, actually like the enum key in this case is encoding 00:21:53.577 --> 00:21:56.887 like a bunch of data that should be probably in its own model. 00:21:59.012 --> 00:22:00.692 And would be much easier to work with. 00:22:00.692 --> 00:22:03.232 So yeah, lots, lots and lots of learnings there. 00:22:04.297 --> 00:22:04.897 Colin: Very cool. 00:22:07.682 --> 00:22:08.092 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:08.112 --> 00:22:08.462 What else 00:22:08.527 --> 00:22:11.487 Colin: got some sidekick stuff going on. 00:22:12.512 --> 00:22:13.062 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:13.062 --> 00:22:17.822 So in the past, I don't know if you remember, there's like a Heroku 00:22:17.862 --> 00:22:19.782 add on called Heroku scheduler. 00:22:20.392 --> 00:22:21.842 Yeah, I used to use this thing all the time. 00:22:21.842 --> 00:22:27.572 This was like my go to way to like set up any like periodic background job. 00:22:28.252 --> 00:22:33.612 Meaning, yeah, it's, A lot of times we'll build background jobs that just do 00:22:33.612 --> 00:22:39.102 some processing in the background based on a trigger, meaning a request came in 00:22:39.102 --> 00:22:42.312 through a controller and then you kick off a background job, or a webhook came 00:22:42.312 --> 00:22:43.412 in and you kick off a background job. 00:22:43.952 --> 00:22:47.652 But there are things that you want to do like every day at four o'clock, or you 00:22:47.652 --> 00:22:51.722 want to do it, you know every Friday at six or something, or maybe you want to 00:22:51.722 --> 00:22:55.262 do something every minute so you can go through and check your database to see 00:22:55.262 --> 00:22:56.257 if you need to do any, you want to do. 00:22:56.437 --> 00:22:58.817 Sort of data sanitization or whatever. 00:22:59.157 --> 00:23:03.227 So all of these periodic task type things, I used to solve them by writing rake 00:23:03.267 --> 00:23:05.597 tasks that would kick off background jobs. 00:23:05.597 --> 00:23:12.797 And then Heroku scheduler was this plugin by Heroku that lets you set a cron style. 00:23:13.217 --> 00:23:18.517 Thing that would kick off your rake task on a schedule and there was like a little 00:23:18.517 --> 00:23:22.957 ui that you could use but now that we're on render we didn't have access to that 00:23:22.957 --> 00:23:26.757 plugin And so I started looking into these a couple of different alternatives. 00:23:26.757 --> 00:23:32.197 So whenever the whenever gem was one that was part of jumpstart already, 00:23:32.487 --> 00:23:37.777 but I liked sidekick cron for a couple reasons one it because we're already 00:23:37.777 --> 00:23:43.097 using sidekick You And sidekick web, it adds like another tab to sidekick web 00:23:43.527 --> 00:23:47.767 where you can click on the cron tab and you can see here's all the jobs and when 00:23:47.767 --> 00:23:49.407 they're scheduled, when they ran last. 00:23:49.407 --> 00:23:52.582 And you can even like, Enable and disable them from the UI and you 00:23:52.582 --> 00:23:54.112 can kick them off from the UI. 00:23:54.112 --> 00:23:57.752 So I really liked the way that that fit in. 00:23:57.752 --> 00:24:02.792 And so set that up on my personal side, just to like experiment a little bit 00:24:02.792 --> 00:24:07.322 with fetching these podcast episodes so that it updates on on the website. 00:24:07.322 --> 00:24:12.032 And then also I set it up in buckets, our little finance app that we've 00:24:12.032 --> 00:24:16.612 got going on to just start fetching some data that's not coming in via 00:24:16.612 --> 00:24:18.182 webhook for a couple different things. 00:24:18.192 --> 00:24:23.862 So property price values from some property APIs and yeah, I think it's, 00:24:23.872 --> 00:24:25.682 it's, it's been serving us really well. 00:24:25.682 --> 00:24:30.542 So we started using it internally to send push notifications to our mobile app. 00:24:31.427 --> 00:24:35.397 At the end of every day to like remind people, Hey it doesn't look like we've 00:24:35.477 --> 00:24:39.847 seen a progress report from project X and it looks like you clocked in there today. 00:24:39.847 --> 00:24:42.137 Like, can you send a, send an update? 00:24:42.137 --> 00:24:42.437 So, 00:24:42.682 --> 00:24:43.362 Colin: Nice. 00:24:43.752 --> 00:24:49.242 Yeah, we made, we made heavy use of that at the subscription underwear company. 00:24:49.872 --> 00:24:50.172 Right. 00:24:50.172 --> 00:24:55.262 We had a lot of Heroku scheduler going on for subscriptions or like it's 00:24:55.262 --> 00:24:56.892 time to run everyone's subscription. 00:24:56.902 --> 00:25:03.787 Cause the way Shopify worked, we had Tell Shopify when to run the subscriptions. 00:25:04.197 --> 00:25:05.167 It was kind of maddening. 00:25:05.637 --> 00:25:09.017 Even though I think it was using Stripe under the hood, which is another story 00:25:09.017 --> 00:25:13.987 for another day, but and then at orbit, we use sidekick cron with sidekick, like. 00:25:14.467 --> 00:25:19.107 We were constantly looking at that screen and just seeing like, literally like 00:25:19.107 --> 00:25:22.027 the one that was always backed up was like integrating with discord because 00:25:22.027 --> 00:25:26.127 the right limits, it was always like, okay, how many sync jobs are running? 00:25:26.177 --> 00:25:28.667 But it was super nice to be able to say, run this every hour, run this 00:25:28.667 --> 00:25:31.637 every day at four, run this whenever. 00:25:31.667 --> 00:25:33.517 And we would usually schedule them. 00:25:33.967 --> 00:25:36.827 I guess that's probably where they, they came up with the name for the gym. 00:25:37.407 --> 00:25:40.467 But we would often schedule around. 00:25:40.827 --> 00:25:42.197 Like we, we had built a. 00:25:42.447 --> 00:25:46.967 An HTTP client that also was aware of the queuing and the cron 00:25:46.977 --> 00:25:50.547 so that it would stay within the rate limits and like respect it. 00:25:50.547 --> 00:25:54.407 And then like delay job if we were going to hit the limits or, 00:25:54.427 --> 00:25:55.837 you know, whatever was going on. 00:25:55.867 --> 00:26:00.137 So I find myself missing some of those tools in JavaScript land. 00:26:00.137 --> 00:26:02.757 I know you could just write your own scripts in JavaScript, but 00:26:02.757 --> 00:26:08.177 like the idea of like, these are rake tasks that then create jobs. 00:26:08.482 --> 00:26:11.652 That then have workers that run in those jobs. 00:26:11.652 --> 00:26:15.562 And it's like in JavaScript, you have to kind of just go do all of that. 00:26:16.052 --> 00:26:19.802 I just found a bowl MQ that I'm looking at for some stuff. 00:26:20.292 --> 00:26:24.782 There's a few blog posts that I found where like top five message queues and. 00:26:25.212 --> 00:26:26.792 Background processors to use. 00:26:27.262 --> 00:26:32.442 Cause I'm working on kind of like a best practice for billing 00:26:32.582 --> 00:26:34.892 in a bot or an app on discord. 00:26:34.912 --> 00:26:38.662 So like kind of what are all the events you need to listen to and don't do 00:26:38.662 --> 00:26:43.912 it in band and store it in a job and then process it and stuff like that. 00:26:43.922 --> 00:26:47.582 So I was like, okay, I normally reach for. 00:26:48.537 --> 00:26:49.137 Sidekick. 00:26:49.167 --> 00:26:50.847 And I was like, okay, we're in JavaScript land. 00:26:51.067 --> 00:26:55.137 I'm sure there's probably a way to do sidekick with JavaScript, but 00:26:55.617 --> 00:26:58.037 it's probably not designed for that. 00:26:59.777 --> 00:27:01.187 CJ: Yeah, I have no idea. 00:27:01.477 --> 00:27:04.627 I have not seen that. 00:27:04.817 --> 00:27:08.867 I haven't seen Sidekick used with JavaScript, but when we were when 00:27:08.867 --> 00:27:09.957 we were first building with Next. 00:27:09.957 --> 00:27:14.027 js, we used this tool called Ingest with, it's like n with two n's. 00:27:14.527 --> 00:27:19.497 And at the time, I, I thought it was pretty, it was a pretty new company. 00:27:20.027 --> 00:27:24.807 And this is like their, their entire company is built around like being 00:27:24.807 --> 00:27:28.447 a service that provides background job handling there were a couple of 00:27:28.457 --> 00:27:29.887 things I really liked from ingest. 00:27:29.887 --> 00:27:34.807 One was the logging and like just keeping track of when your jobs ran. 00:27:35.377 --> 00:27:36.947 And then they also had some like. 00:27:37.407 --> 00:27:41.837 Interesting concepts around, I think it was around like trees of jobs that 00:27:41.837 --> 00:27:46.107 could have interdependencies and things like that, which can get kind of messy. 00:27:46.317 --> 00:27:50.707 But yeah, it worked great for us for a while and we used it 00:27:50.707 --> 00:27:53.937 to send emails and handle a few things before we set up rails. 00:27:53.937 --> 00:27:58.007 So but I, yeah, I remember looking at bull And a couple others that 00:27:58.007 --> 00:27:59.827 were just like, how do you host this? 00:27:59.837 --> 00:28:00.657 Where do you run it? 00:28:00.657 --> 00:28:01.797 Like, what is the worker? 00:28:01.797 --> 00:28:06.917 Like if I, if I deploy my next JS app on Vercel, like is my bowl MQ thing 00:28:06.927 --> 00:28:09.027 happening on Vercel or somewhere else? 00:28:09.027 --> 00:28:13.457 And then it was like, do you just set up a serverless function that runs your 00:28:13.467 --> 00:28:15.147 background job as a separate thing? 00:28:15.147 --> 00:28:19.567 And then like in your main job, you're like to schedule your background job. 00:28:19.567 --> 00:28:21.077 You just hit the serverless function. 00:28:21.707 --> 00:28:22.927 And then, yeah, I don't know. 00:28:22.937 --> 00:28:28.117 There was, I remember it being one of the many frustrating things in 00:28:28.117 --> 00:28:32.297 JavaScript land being that like every single piece of the puzzle is like, 00:28:32.947 --> 00:28:38.327 where do I get the third party SAS product that solves this problem? 00:28:38.757 --> 00:28:39.137 So, 00:28:39.192 --> 00:28:41.012 Colin: Well, and it's tricky when you start looking at the 00:28:41.012 --> 00:28:42.572 renders and flies and stuff. 00:28:42.592 --> 00:28:48.002 It's like, if you're running in this like quick to deploy thing, like it's 00:28:48.112 --> 00:28:52.682 like, it's like why Heroku had an add on store and why they had Heroku scheduler. 00:28:52.712 --> 00:28:56.212 And I'm sure Chrome, like they have probably some features, but when 00:28:56.212 --> 00:29:01.932 you just hit a key, like a worker, you loo there's so many things 00:29:01.942 --> 00:29:04.102 like, do we have observability? 00:29:04.132 --> 00:29:05.272 What happens if it fails? 00:29:05.272 --> 00:29:08.042 What happens if it needs to call some other ones? 00:29:08.042 --> 00:29:10.202 And there's like a fan out and there's all these different things 00:29:10.212 --> 00:29:11.142 that you have to think about. 00:29:11.482 --> 00:29:14.792 So like, yeah, looking at Ingest's website, it looks like they've maybe 00:29:14.992 --> 00:29:20.352 started leaning towards AI jobs as a service, but still, still a worker 00:29:20.562 --> 00:29:22.332 system, but very heavily on that. 00:29:23.022 --> 00:29:26.192 LLM chain and like, usually you're doing lots of requests. 00:29:26.192 --> 00:29:27.922 It's like chatbots and things like that. 00:29:27.932 --> 00:29:33.892 But, you know, it looks like flow control, logging, observability, recovery tools. 00:29:34.512 --> 00:29:38.592 You're doing all that yourself if you don't use a tool or like, I think some 00:29:38.592 --> 00:29:42.182 of it, what's nice about Sidekiq is there's so many plugins to Sidekiq. 00:29:42.652 --> 00:29:45.592 There's like retries and there's back like exponential back off and 00:29:45.592 --> 00:29:47.112 you can define all of that stuff. 00:29:47.112 --> 00:29:52.222 We used to use a company that is no longer around called iron worker or iron or iron. 00:29:52.222 --> 00:29:52.712 io. 00:29:53.152 --> 00:29:57.292 That was very similar to, this is like over a decade ago, but very much like, 00:29:57.322 --> 00:30:01.142 I do not want to think about where these jobs are, where they work and you can 00:30:01.142 --> 00:30:05.452 deploy go and Ruby and all these different ones to them and let them do that, but 00:30:06.052 --> 00:30:07.952 that's like a whole, it's a whole world. 00:30:07.952 --> 00:30:09.752 Mm hmm. 00:30:09.847 --> 00:30:10.337 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:11.177 --> 00:30:11.367 Yeah. 00:30:11.367 --> 00:30:16.547 I think in Django we use DJ celery or like a J or some, some sort of celery thing. 00:30:16.547 --> 00:30:24.087 And I remember George had to go like super deep on debugging some lock issues 00:30:24.097 --> 00:30:27.397 where like we were, we were writing to. 00:30:27.847 --> 00:30:30.117 Some cue and celery had to pull stuff off the queue. 00:30:30.137 --> 00:30:32.087 It's like not simple to get right. 00:30:32.777 --> 00:30:39.527 And so, yeah, I do appreciate that sidekick is backed by a actual business. 00:30:40.127 --> 00:30:42.887 And it seems to have lots of great support with different plugins and 00:30:42.887 --> 00:30:46.207 features and oftentimes the stuff too, that comes with the paid. 00:30:47.262 --> 00:30:50.952 Plans for sidekick other than support, obviously, but a lot of the features 00:30:50.952 --> 00:30:55.912 that you can get from Paid are also available as community packages or 00:30:55.932 --> 00:31:00.952 a lot of it is just ruby So you can kind of treat it as a ruby object 00:31:00.962 --> 00:31:03.202 and go into it and write your own. 00:31:03.272 --> 00:31:08.582 I think we built A debounce like our own like debouncing thing. 00:31:08.582 --> 00:31:13.307 So if you kick off several different jobs that all have the same arguments 00:31:13.367 --> 00:31:17.917 to perform and they're all item potent, then it'll debounce them until you 00:31:17.917 --> 00:31:21.577 stop creating jobs for like a minute and then it'll run the last one. 00:31:21.917 --> 00:31:24.497 So yeah. 00:31:24.547 --> 00:31:25.247 Great little tool. 00:31:25.622 --> 00:31:26.262 Colin: Very cool. 00:31:27.592 --> 00:31:30.912 Yeah, on my side, I've mostly, like, been working on those 00:31:30.942 --> 00:31:32.282 bots, like I was talking about. 00:31:32.992 --> 00:31:36.392 Mostly just carving out some best practices, figuring out what our docs are 00:31:36.392 --> 00:31:41.402 missing, figuring out what things, like, kind of cursive knowledge that we have. 00:31:42.052 --> 00:31:43.242 Like, what are we missing? 00:31:43.252 --> 00:31:44.152 What are we doing? 00:31:44.742 --> 00:31:49.982 Discord is interesting that we don't have our own SDKs, so we, like, I'm writing 00:31:49.982 --> 00:31:56.177 everything using just, you know, Pure API calls right now, but we'll probably also 00:31:56.267 --> 00:32:00.757 do it in a few different libraries just to, so that people have some examples, 00:32:00.757 --> 00:32:05.107 the libraries have pretty good support and guides and stuff like that, but there's 00:32:05.107 --> 00:32:08.317 some things where like the libraries don't always implement all the things 00:32:08.317 --> 00:32:12.747 that we offer, so just trying to show off, like, what is our interpretation? 00:32:12.747 --> 00:32:17.167 Maybe what we recommend is not even necessarily how it's written in the docs. 00:32:17.167 --> 00:32:17.857 And so when you do. 00:32:18.637 --> 00:32:19.937 Get that back in line. 00:32:19.987 --> 00:32:22.347 When things just change and need some updating. 00:32:23.807 --> 00:32:29.137 CJ: So when you're working on a sample bot in JavaScript, are you're using 00:32:29.137 --> 00:32:32.307 like a third party, like community JavaScript library, or are you 00:32:32.307 --> 00:32:33.807 writing like just fetch calls or how's 00:32:33.827 --> 00:32:34.217 Colin: Yeah. 00:32:34.217 --> 00:32:38.867 Like I'm usually using like Axios or something just to have a nicer little 00:32:38.867 --> 00:32:43.577 rests and point or fetch if I want to just have something without any dependencies. 00:32:44.067 --> 00:32:48.987 Mostly just because then the reference implementation is without any specific 00:32:49.357 --> 00:32:56.397 library so that library devs can see it, developers can see it, and then that way 00:32:56.397 --> 00:32:59.987 if you're building something and you're doing it in another language that's not 00:32:59.997 --> 00:33:03.787 JavaScript, you can just see what the control flow is on the JavaScript side. 00:33:04.457 --> 00:33:07.567 Are we going to end up with like examples in a bunch of other languages? 00:33:07.982 --> 00:33:12.202 Maybe, I think like most of our bots are probably JavaScript and Python. 00:33:12.662 --> 00:33:14.282 So those are like the two big languages. 00:33:14.612 --> 00:33:17.492 Discord, RB is really cool as like a Ruby one. 00:33:17.492 --> 00:33:19.412 We use that at at orbit. 00:33:19.852 --> 00:33:26.402 And yeah, there's, I mean, there's 10, there's dozens of of SDKs. 00:33:26.407 --> 00:33:32.282 So like there's someone who has one in R and in Crystal and in Ruby and Elixir. 00:33:32.282 --> 00:33:34.032 And so it's, 00:33:34.082 --> 00:33:37.602 CJ: do you get telemetry on like which ones are most popular or 00:33:37.602 --> 00:33:38.792 is it kind of like anecdotal? 00:33:38.792 --> 00:33:39.302 Like, 00:33:39.347 --> 00:33:41.687 Colin: Yeah, they're supposed to send like a user agent. 00:33:41.687 --> 00:33:44.877 So we have a good sense of like what the top libraries are. 00:33:44.887 --> 00:33:51.227 And a lot of the really large bots have their own clients and, or forks of 00:33:51.287 --> 00:33:56.297 popular clients just because when you get to large bots, Really large bots. 00:33:56.307 --> 00:34:00.557 They have to deal with the gateway and sharding and like limits on the gateway of 00:34:00.557 --> 00:34:04.727 how many like if you are running multiple instances of your bot connecting to 00:34:05.207 --> 00:34:10.667 pools of guilds and servers, like there's a lot of overhead where a lot of our 00:34:10.667 --> 00:34:15.887 examples are for bots that we just assume you're not going to get to that issue. 00:34:16.267 --> 00:34:20.457 And like our newer bots mostly use HTTP and there you're getting like 00:34:20.487 --> 00:34:24.457 webhooks instead of having to do an open web socket to the gateway. 00:34:24.467 --> 00:34:27.187 So there's a little bit of a movement that way. 00:34:27.247 --> 00:34:30.347 We don't support webhooks for everything that the gateway has. 00:34:30.347 --> 00:34:34.287 It's only for very specific, like the slash commands in discord 00:34:34.287 --> 00:34:35.787 are powered by webhooks usually. 00:34:36.277 --> 00:34:38.257 Or you can do them via the gateway too. 00:34:38.297 --> 00:34:40.497 So some of this is like, okay. 00:34:41.007 --> 00:34:43.947 Now that we have this, like, should we be offering more events? 00:34:43.957 --> 00:34:46.597 Should we be moving to an HTTP future? 00:34:46.597 --> 00:34:48.807 And, and cause the nice thing about that is you don't have to 00:34:48.807 --> 00:34:53.117 do sharding and you could have one instance of your bot running that. 00:34:54.257 --> 00:34:57.027 Takes those and puts them into a job queue, for example, 00:34:59.407 --> 00:35:04.407 CJ: and it, are these examples all hosted on GitHub somewhere that we could check 00:35:04.437 --> 00:35:06.447 Colin: They will be, yeah, there'll be in the docs. 00:35:06.507 --> 00:35:11.617 So I'm working on like a refresh of a lot of our docs content, just trying 00:35:11.617 --> 00:35:13.437 to get rid of some of the older stuff. 00:35:13.437 --> 00:35:15.787 We've got a lot of things that are like, this is deprecated. 00:35:15.817 --> 00:35:19.487 So it's like, okay, we might just say it's been deprecated for a while. 00:35:19.497 --> 00:35:21.117 We're going to shove it into get hub. 00:35:21.187 --> 00:35:24.227 Here's the get commit if you want to go read it again, but. 00:35:24.427 --> 00:35:26.007 We're going to get it out of the docs. 00:35:26.627 --> 00:35:28.987 So yeah, there'll be in the docs, discord. 00:35:29.227 --> 00:35:29.647 dev. 00:35:31.397 --> 00:35:31.847 CJ: Very cool. 00:35:32.527 --> 00:35:37.907 And are there, when you're talking about like building apps around best 00:35:37.907 --> 00:35:43.857 practices, like how are you, like, how do you go about figuring out what 00:35:44.377 --> 00:35:45.967 patterns people should implement? 00:35:45.997 --> 00:35:51.327 Are you looking at like, ways that the bigger bots have done it or talking 00:35:51.327 --> 00:35:54.297 to like the engineers internally or, yeah, like kind of what's your approach 00:35:54.297 --> 00:35:57.677 to figuring out the, the right or the way that you want to recommend? 00:35:57.807 --> 00:36:00.017 Colin: this is kind of like a side quest for me that I haven't 00:36:00.017 --> 00:36:01.757 really told anyone that I'm doing. 00:36:01.777 --> 00:36:07.287 So what I'm doing is my interpretation of what I would do if I was an 00:36:07.287 --> 00:36:11.307 external developer, because that's the failure point is like, what are 00:36:11.307 --> 00:36:14.997 we telling people to do, and then I'm going to take it to the team 00:36:15.397 --> 00:36:17.197 and say, okay, I implemented this. 00:36:17.377 --> 00:36:18.397 Please poke holes in it. 00:36:18.397 --> 00:36:20.057 Like we'll do like a demo day type thing. 00:36:21.267 --> 00:36:22.537 What would you do differently? 00:36:22.537 --> 00:36:25.517 What are the concerns that I'm not, what are we, what are we blind 00:36:25.517 --> 00:36:26.967 to that we aren't telling people? 00:36:26.967 --> 00:36:31.317 What am I, what did I also do that wasn't in the docs because I 00:36:31.317 --> 00:36:33.017 know that I have to do this thing. 00:36:33.017 --> 00:36:35.097 So that's a note for me to update the docs. 00:36:36.767 --> 00:36:40.027 I think for a lot of developers, like they want to see code and they 00:36:40.027 --> 00:36:44.047 don't want to just read because they're not going to read usually. 00:36:44.087 --> 00:36:48.527 We hope that they read, but the code can be very self documenting that way. 00:36:48.557 --> 00:36:52.767 And then we can also take PRs if the community thinks that 00:36:52.767 --> 00:36:53.677 something could be better. 00:36:53.947 --> 00:36:57.202 What I'm trying to figure out is like, The discussion we just 00:36:57.202 --> 00:37:00.532 had about workers and stuff is that's when you get into opinions. 00:37:00.852 --> 00:37:03.842 It's when you get into tech stacks, right? 00:37:03.842 --> 00:37:08.842 Like when I start thinking about like, here's where we should implement 00:37:08.842 --> 00:37:12.812 a caching strategy, we could just say, choose a strategy of your. 00:37:13.362 --> 00:37:16.922 Your own and just not show an example, or we could do what I'm trying to 00:37:16.922 --> 00:37:18.152 figure out is like the same app. 00:37:18.152 --> 00:37:19.752 Do I do it multiple times? 00:37:20.032 --> 00:37:23.482 One super naive in band requests. 00:37:24.282 --> 00:37:25.972 You can run it and it's going to run fine. 00:37:25.982 --> 00:37:27.002 No dependencies. 00:37:27.022 --> 00:37:29.322 The next one's like, okay, this is using bull MQ. 00:37:29.322 --> 00:37:32.072 And here's how you would save these two. 00:37:32.437 --> 00:37:36.687 Job queue, process them, and why you would do that. 00:37:37.077 --> 00:37:41.267 But then, of course, you get the why aren't you using my favorite queue system. 00:37:41.817 --> 00:37:44.607 And then the other one would be like, okay, here's another one using Redis 00:37:44.667 --> 00:37:49.147 as like a cache, and here's how we recommend, you know, doing your cache 00:37:49.147 --> 00:37:50.527 and validation and stuff like that. 00:37:51.067 --> 00:37:52.837 Those are not things that we document. 00:37:52.917 --> 00:37:56.427 Like, it's not our job necessarily to document how to do caching as a job. 00:37:57.227 --> 00:38:03.077 Concept, but I think if we expect you to have a good time that you should 00:38:03.087 --> 00:38:06.587 be caching or we should be offloading those things, then I think we should 00:38:06.587 --> 00:38:10.007 tell people that because otherwise you're going to hit rate limits, then 00:38:10.007 --> 00:38:12.687 everyone's going to go ask, like, why am I hitting these rate limits? 00:38:12.687 --> 00:38:15.417 And so there is a little bit of that, that I think we can do 00:38:15.417 --> 00:38:17.017 to make people more successful. 00:38:17.017 --> 00:38:20.407 And then we run into the, okay, now I want this in my language. 00:38:20.697 --> 00:38:21.777 Now I want this in. 00:38:22.132 --> 00:38:27.072 You know, some flavor of a library because a lot like most people are not 00:38:27.072 --> 00:38:30.322 going to do raw HTTP requests either. 00:38:30.582 --> 00:38:32.052 So like, what is the Discord. 00:38:32.062 --> 00:38:33.472 js example of this? 00:38:33.762 --> 00:38:36.352 But my hope is that if we offer these that then Discord. 00:38:36.362 --> 00:38:39.592 js can translate that into their own version. 00:38:40.127 --> 00:38:44.097 Or they can tell us like, Hey, we don't think that that's the best way to do this. 00:38:44.567 --> 00:38:48.027 Some of the SDKs, they're really, they're like more like thick clients than thin 00:38:48.027 --> 00:38:53.867 clients that they do a lot of the caching for you or like the discord RB one it has. 00:38:54.147 --> 00:38:57.317 A really cool way of keeping you within the rate limits. 00:38:57.727 --> 00:39:01.577 And so like, it's aware of how much you've used what's available. 00:39:01.857 --> 00:39:06.747 It will intentionally delay your requests and things to make you fit within that. 00:39:06.757 --> 00:39:08.697 So it's still possible to hit it. 00:39:08.737 --> 00:39:11.257 Like if you do something, you can slam into it really hard. 00:39:11.267 --> 00:39:14.987 But there's some of that stuff that's like not going to be captured in like 00:39:15.347 --> 00:39:18.697 a generated open API SDK, for example. 00:39:19.952 --> 00:39:20.382 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:39:20.492 --> 00:39:20.872 Mm hmm. 00:39:21.742 --> 00:39:22.112 Yeah. 00:39:22.152 --> 00:39:28.142 One thing that came to mind while you were explaining that was the, there 00:39:28.142 --> 00:39:33.402 was like a period at, at the end of my time at Stripe where I wanted to give 00:39:33.422 --> 00:39:38.802 people my opinionated implementation of how I would do something with Rails. 00:39:39.112 --> 00:39:40.862 For a Stripe connect integration. 00:39:41.342 --> 00:39:44.262 And I wanted to show like, here's how you should handle your web hooks. 00:39:44.282 --> 00:39:46.902 And here's how you should like farm stuff off to the background. 00:39:46.902 --> 00:39:48.422 And here's how you should do X, Y, and Z. 00:39:48.782 --> 00:39:52.002 And it really, we had a hard time like finding anywhere that it might 00:39:52.002 --> 00:39:53.912 fit in the docs, in the proper docs. 00:39:53.932 --> 00:39:57.602 Cause in the docs, it's like, you just want to tell people the high level stuff 00:39:57.602 --> 00:40:01.322 that they care about from that's like tech stack, agnostic, whatever from 00:40:01.322 --> 00:40:06.442 Stripe And it was yeah, so it was like this, we got into this situation where 00:40:06.542 --> 00:40:09.822 it made more sense to write them as blog posts that were just posted on dev. 00:40:09.822 --> 00:40:13.432 to or my own, like my own website or whatever, because it's like, 00:40:13.842 --> 00:40:17.512 it's actually just my opinions, but about how I would do it. 00:40:17.857 --> 00:40:21.857 And with those like additional things like sprinkled in. 00:40:21.867 --> 00:40:25.837 So where in the docs you might say like, yeah, we recommend using a caching 00:40:25.837 --> 00:40:27.577 strategy here in like the blog posts. 00:40:27.577 --> 00:40:30.257 It's like, okay, here's how I did it with caching in this 00:40:30.257 --> 00:40:31.487 specific stack or whatever. 00:40:31.507 --> 00:40:34.887 But yeah, I think I, I did a bad job about. 00:40:35.177 --> 00:40:40.127 Like doing a lot of collaborations with other dev rel teams, but there were 00:40:40.127 --> 00:40:44.277 other people on, on our team that were good at saying like, Oh, Hey, we might 00:40:44.277 --> 00:40:45.887 want to do a caching strategy here. 00:40:45.897 --> 00:40:50.437 Let's do like a partner video with some other, like some company 00:40:50.437 --> 00:40:51.727 that's like a caching company. 00:40:51.727 --> 00:40:55.037 And so then it's like, okay, here's how you could use ingest 00:40:55.147 --> 00:40:57.427 in the context of a discord bot. 00:40:57.757 --> 00:40:58.747 That's like sending the thing. 00:40:58.747 --> 00:41:01.247 And then you kind of like work together to make a live stream or you work 00:41:01.247 --> 00:41:02.657 together to make a blog post or whatever. 00:41:03.077 --> 00:41:03.347 Yeah. 00:41:03.347 --> 00:41:03.707 I don't know. 00:41:03.857 --> 00:41:04.307 Kind of, 00:41:04.322 --> 00:41:05.212 Colin: Yeah, that's a good 00:41:05.257 --> 00:41:05.857 CJ: it's tough to get 00:41:05.942 --> 00:41:08.902 Colin: a good call out because I haven't gotten that far yet But this will 00:41:08.902 --> 00:41:14.742 probably be like like a dev 2 article or it could be you know Let's go do it 00:41:14.742 --> 00:41:19.562 live on Twitch or a discord dev YouTube channel, which we do not have right 00:41:19.562 --> 00:41:24.422 now, but we might one day Those kinds of things so we'll think about that. 00:41:24.572 --> 00:41:30.822 But yeah, the the tricky thing about partnering Is we found this even 00:41:30.822 --> 00:41:34.602 with open source implementations of like a certain job queue is 00:41:34.602 --> 00:41:36.122 then like our docs are public. 00:41:36.392 --> 00:41:41.112 So if we implement one, we're going to get PRS for everyone's favorite, whether 00:41:41.112 --> 00:41:46.322 it's their proponent of that one or their DevRel for that one, or they want 00:41:46.362 --> 00:41:48.692 GitHub contributions to the discord repo. 00:41:49.952 --> 00:41:52.052 So, you know, we get all of them. 00:41:52.052 --> 00:41:54.152 We, cause we did that for activities. 00:41:54.152 --> 00:41:56.252 We, we picked a third party. 00:41:56.392 --> 00:41:57.532 Multiplayer backend. 00:41:57.802 --> 00:42:01.182 And the cool thing is that company has that since built their own discord 00:42:01.182 --> 00:42:05.342 example, that's way better than ours because like it's from them, they 00:42:05.342 --> 00:42:07.122 understand their tool better than we do. 00:42:07.532 --> 00:42:10.342 So we were probably going to swap that out for theirs. 00:42:10.782 --> 00:42:12.572 Cause a lot of people were like, why did you pick that one? 00:42:12.572 --> 00:42:15.482 And you know, why aren't using mine or this paid one? 00:42:15.482 --> 00:42:19.382 It's like, well, it was open source and our team clearly had used it before. 00:42:19.382 --> 00:42:22.562 So it was more of like, we want to give you an example instead 00:42:22.562 --> 00:42:24.232 of make you do it yourself. 00:42:24.247 --> 00:42:27.997 But, you know, some of those opinions, I think what I would like is that 00:42:27.997 --> 00:42:31.457 the docs should at least make you think about like that, like that you 00:42:31.457 --> 00:42:33.077 should think of a caching strategy. 00:42:33.567 --> 00:42:37.827 And then maybe that's a, Maybe it doesn't make sense to do a call out to like 00:42:38.117 --> 00:42:42.427 implementation there, but if it feels more human, like you can have the super 00:42:42.427 --> 00:42:44.797 technical docs with a fun little bubble. 00:42:44.797 --> 00:42:47.507 That's like, we recommend a caching strategy, go check out how CJ 00:42:47.507 --> 00:42:49.147 did this and rails or whatever. 00:42:49.617 --> 00:42:49.618 CJ: Mm 00:42:49.652 --> 00:42:52.352 Colin: you can kind of cross promote, which would be fun because 00:42:52.352 --> 00:42:55.172 I think like at the end of the day, like especially with discord. 00:42:55.787 --> 00:42:56.967 Like we should have some fun with it. 00:42:57.007 --> 00:43:00.717 It doesn't need to be this like cut and dry, like you know, manufacturing 00:43:00.727 --> 00:43:03.077 guidelines for implementing XYZ. 00:43:03.087 --> 00:43:04.907 It's like it's discord. 00:43:06.682 --> 00:43:07.072 CJ: Yeah. 00:43:08.702 --> 00:43:12.842 Speaking of fun, I, the little touches that have been popping up in 00:43:12.932 --> 00:43:14.822 D script lately have been pretty cool. 00:43:14.882 --> 00:43:15.302 Like, 00:43:15.527 --> 00:43:19.317 Colin: The name of the AI assistant was a strong choice. 00:43:21.412 --> 00:43:24.282 I don't know any context about why it's called Underlord. 00:43:24.282 --> 00:43:24.982 Is that what it is? 00:43:25.872 --> 00:43:26.272 CJ: Yeah. 00:43:26.312 --> 00:43:28.962 Under the under Lord, you go to the under Lord to have it 00:43:28.992 --> 00:43:30.522 automatically do stuff for you. 00:43:30.652 --> 00:43:33.862 Colin: Well, in a world where, like, almost every AI assistant seems to 00:43:33.872 --> 00:43:38.602 be named, like, a woman's name, which is, like, problematic all to itself. 00:43:39.232 --> 00:43:39.652 Right? 00:43:39.692 --> 00:43:42.762 And, like, or they're trying to make them human feeling, and now 00:43:42.762 --> 00:43:44.672 you've got, like, the Underlord, and 00:43:45.352 --> 00:43:45.632 CJ: Yeah, 00:43:47.722 --> 00:43:50.242 Colin: I wish I was in that, that marketing meeting. 00:43:50.272 --> 00:43:53.302 'cause naming things is always hard, but also so fun 00:43:54.532 --> 00:43:54.872 CJ: I know. 00:43:54.872 --> 00:43:57.672 I'm sure someone was just like, what if we called it like the overlord? 00:43:57.672 --> 00:43:59.132 And they're like, no, no, no, no, not overlord. 00:43:59.132 --> 00:43:59.912 That sounds scary. 00:43:59.942 --> 00:44:02.462 And they're like, under Lord, like sold. 00:44:02.692 --> 00:44:03.182 We'll call it 00:44:03.442 --> 00:44:05.452 Colin: But then, you know, that whiteboard also had like, what 00:44:05.452 --> 00:44:08.692 if we called it Dan or DS Script? 00:44:08.697 --> 00:44:09.082 Dan 00:44:10.092 --> 00:44:10.502 CJ: Yeah. 00:44:11.092 --> 00:44:11.362 Yeah. 00:44:11.392 --> 00:44:12.632 Or like the Descript dog. 00:44:12.632 --> 00:44:16.682 Oh, like, you know, like a lot of people want to have a, a mascot. 00:44:17.027 --> 00:44:17.797 Situation, 00:44:17.872 --> 00:44:18.412 Colin: for sure. 00:44:18.502 --> 00:44:21.742 Well, we'll be using under Lord to edit this episode. 00:44:21.742 --> 00:44:22.192 So 00:44:23.557 --> 00:44:23.847 CJ: yeah. 00:44:24.037 --> 00:44:26.047 Brought to you by the Underlord. 00:44:26.417 --> 00:44:27.457 Oh gosh. 00:44:27.797 --> 00:44:28.187 All right. 00:44:28.207 --> 00:44:28.877 Why don't we wrap it 00:44:29.012 --> 00:44:29.432 Colin: right. 00:44:29.732 --> 00:44:30.422 Good chatting. 00:44:30.632 --> 00:44:33.152 Where can we find all the notes and all the things? 00:44:33.987 --> 00:44:34.257 CJ: Yeah. 00:44:34.257 --> 00:44:35.597 Head over to build and learn. 00:44:35.597 --> 00:44:40.257 dev for links to all the resources to the stuff we talked about today 00:44:40.307 --> 00:44:42.067 and yeah, we'll catch you next 00:44:42.202 --> 00:44:43.432 Colin: All right, bye friends. 00:44:44.487 --> 00:44:45.107 CJ: Bye friends.