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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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Big Drum Roll.

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I've got Temple Grand in here with us.

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This is somebody we all
need to be mentored by.

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Those of you who know Horse
Boy Method, movement Method our

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programs, it all started with me
seeking out mentorship from Temple.

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Why did I do that?

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Because I'm not autistic.

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So when my son showed up with
autism, I realized that if I went

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to anybody else for help who didn't
have autism, well what I'd get would

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be an opinion, not lived experience.

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And I needed to find somebody
who had started life as severe

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as my son, IE, nonverbal, et
cetera, and who'd kind of made it.

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And who's that person?

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Of course that person is Temple Grandin.

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So.

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20 years ago, I sat in a office
with you, temple, and I asked

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you, how does my son become you?

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And you told me to do three things
and I've done the, I did those

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three things and everything worked.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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And what were the three

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Rupert Isaacson: things?

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The three things you told me to do
were, number one, follow the child,

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which in itself was three things.

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He said, you have to follow the child.

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Physically like obser observation
because the kid's not gonna tell you if

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they're nonverbal, what they wanna do.

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You have to sit, you have to follow them.

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So you see the patterns
of what they wanna do.

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Two, you said you have to follow them
emotionally, which means sensory.

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Really.

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You have to see what's in the environment
when they're melting down and what's

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in the environment when they're happy.

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And again, because you're
observing them, eliminate the

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bad sensory triggers, which are.

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Generally manmade.

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And you gave me Yeah.

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Some good ones to go with, and that
way the kid will build resilience for

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when they have to deal with that stuff.

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That's, and then you said the third thing.

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I had to follow the child intellectually.

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And this was a bit of a, a, a puzzle
for me because I was like, well,

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I'm got a non-verbal three-year-old.

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I'm not having conversations.

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And you pointed out, you
said, ah, but Rupert, it's in

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the obsessions, it's in the.

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It's in the obsessive interests.

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Yeah.

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And it's also in the patterns of the
stemming, if it's repetitive banging, if

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it's right angles of lining things up,
that could point to a math, science brain.

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If it's elliptical lining things
up and sensory type exploratory

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stemming, you could be looking at
art, an art storytelling brain,

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or you could be looking at both.

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And these things completely
made sense to me.

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And then you said, okay, you've
also gotta do your stuff outside.

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Mostly because there's fewer
bad sensory triggers in nature

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because we're just organisms.

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That's where we're supposed to be.

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And let him move because people on
the spectrum, indeed, most people are

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primarily kinetic, kinesthetic learners.

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And I followed that advice and
that's what led us to Betsy.

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And then that's what led us to the
horse, and that's what led us to horse

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boy method and him becoming verbal.

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So the, so just a, a thing to listeners
before we, we give over to Temple.

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Seek advice if you are in the
neurocognitive field from the

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population that you serve, be mentored
by them because they are the ones who

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actually understand the condition.

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And then if you do that, you're going
to be probably getting rational advice.

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Okay.

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So Temple, thank you
so much for coming on.

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I've rambled.

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Tell us what you are working on at
the moment and what do you think in

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the neurocognitive field, particularly
for the equine practitioners, what

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should we be most aware of now?

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Well, I have found that
there's kind of three ways that

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autistic kids react to animals.

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Love 'em at first sight.

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The second kind, afraid of 'em at first.

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But then if you introduce 'em slowly
and carefully, then they love them.

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And then there's a few kids where
they're probably not appropriate.

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Like, they don't like to smell of
the animal or, or something, or the

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they're afraid the horse might Winnie.

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That's kind of a patterns I've seen.

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And I've had parents tell me their kids
said their first words on a horse, and

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I think this has to do with rhythm and
balancing going on at the same time.

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I just got back in the ICAN conference
and there was a PET scan shown there

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that showed that the cerebellum was
underactive and rhythm and balance

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stimulates the vestibular system.

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Those OTs have found years ago that that
kind of stuff is helpful and we gotta

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get these kids out doing things because
Katie Peters, our specialist at, at CSU

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did a study and she compared horses.

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With taking the child out in
a beautiful garden park that

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we own and weightless control.

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And the horses were the best,
but the garden had some efficacy.

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So I wanna emphasize we
don't have access to horses.

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Just getting 'em out in nature,
getting 'em out in a park and,

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and looking at plants and talking
to 'em that has some efficacy.

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I think that's important.

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Rupert Isaacson: And presumably we
want to combine these things, right?

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We don't just wanna Absolutely.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Yeah.

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It would be best if you combine,
put kids in isolation and

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Totally agree.

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The best thing to do be to combine them.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, and the other problem I'm running
into now is with getting three year olds

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that are nonverbal onto your wait lists.

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Hmm.

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That's absolutely unacceptable.

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And there's some parts of the US where
that's going on right now, so the worst

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thing you could do is let 'em zone
out on the phone for for two years.

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No, that's what you don't
wanna have 'em doing.

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And one of the things that was a big.

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Factor in my therapy was when
I was really little, when I was

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two and a half, was lots of turn.

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Taking games, learning how to wait and
take turns at games, all kinds of little

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games, spinning a coin, we're gonna
take turns, spinning the coin, you know,

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learn to throw a ball back and forth.

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Just do little interactive games.

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And what I suggested in a lot
of situations here, they're not

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gonna have access to horses.

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Well, let's start church play and library
play and let's tap into the retirees.

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And there's lots of retirees right now
they are using, it's a generational

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Rupert Isaacson: contact.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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And.

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And get them to come in and
work for these little kids.

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And we're gonna call it
library play for legal reasons.

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We can't say we're doing
therapy even though we are

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Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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It's church play and library play.

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Rupert Isaacson: But we've got also,
I prefer the word play because I have

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never yet met a kid that wanted therapy.

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I've met plenty of kids that would
like to play, but I never yet met

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a kid that woke up in the morning,
said, Hey, you know what I want?

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I want some therapy.

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Yeah, no,

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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no.

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But they, they, we've got to do something.

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And these are places I've
been to within the last year.

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This is right now, right now.

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Not something 10 years ago.

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It's now the last 12 months.

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And we've got to start working
with 'em and we've gotta just

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tap into whatever resources we've
got there in the neighborhood.

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Rupert Isaacson: So when you say
church play and library play, what,

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can you describe what that entails?

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What does it look like?

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Well, a good teacher, I've watched
them just knows how, how to.

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Push just enough to get into
the kids' world to interact.

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Mm-hmm.

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So you might start out taking turns
if he's flapping something, take turns

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flapping it, it's something that basic
take turns spinning a single coin on.

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Some of this is somewhat done in the
Sunrise program in an old, old book called

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The Hidden Child emphasized on on getting
in an interaction, going with the kid

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where there's some kind of an interaction.

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And what I have found is some teachers
have the knack to do this and some don't,

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Rupert Isaacson: but
teachers that don't, some

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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people just instinctively
can engage these kids,

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Rupert Isaacson: but the, for the
pe, the people that don't, and let's

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face it, a lot of horse people are.

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A little bit too horse focused.

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What's your advice for how to enter
into the world of an autistic child?

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Well, you might just he flaps you flap.

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Rupert Isaacson: So some,
some degree of imitation.

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It might be that simple.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Or let's say we're in a library and
or church basement or someplace like

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that and the good teacher might just
start doing something like that.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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And then gradually get it into
where we take turns doing something.

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Okay.

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And is that building what they call
theory of mind, a turn taking activity?

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And I've watched these teachers
that just have the knack.

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Some people have it, some don't.

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And we've got so many retirees and
I just read an article the other

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day, cruises and golfers are not
all what it's cracked up to be.

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They'd probably rather be having,
doing something worthwhile

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working with these kids.

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Yes.

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And I don't, I don't
know what else we can do.

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They, the only resources they've got are
their church or their library and just, or

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neighborhood group, something like that.

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And this is something that, you know,
real low income communities could do this.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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That's not trying.

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The worst thing

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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you can do is nothing.

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Yeah.

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That's the worst thing you can do.

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Let them, let them watch TV all
day or play with phones all day.

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That's exactly what they
should not be doing.

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Rupert Isaacson: Now once you've got
some interaction going and presumably

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some theory of mind beginning to form
I've heard you often say, we've gotta

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get these kids out there doing things.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Yes, absolutely.

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Rupert Isaacson: When, when kids are at
this, that fragile state where they're

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just beginning to come out of their
shell, but they're still having trouble

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understanding top-down instruction
and, you know, it could be so easy to.

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Kill their confidence
and knock them backwards.

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Yeah.

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What's your advice on beginning
to help them to do tasks?

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Well, first of all, I just
gotta interact with 'em before

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I can start working on talking.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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I've got to just get interacting with 'em.

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My therapy had a huge amount of
emphasis on taking turns at games.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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And then you broaden the games
that you play, you know, and Bill

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Gates and I both had a lot of
card games, a lot of board games.

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That's when we got older
and we were talking.

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: Because what

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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I think this did is it helps
you to inhibit a response.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Got to wait your turn.

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That's something really, really important.

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And then just, I can remember
being taken out for walks and

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we'd go identify plants and.

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We had maple trees and you, you
know, they, we call them maple

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keys, the thing seed things, and you
could throw 'em up in the air and

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they'd spin like little helicopters.

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I can remember doing that
when I was very young.

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You could also pull 'em
apart, stick 'em on your nose.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Dr. Temple Grandin:

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Another thing that we did, now other
parts of the world won't have that type

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of tree, but that's something that we had.

00:11:53.655 --> 00:11:53.955
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:11:53.955 --> 00:11:56.865
But that basic interaction with nature,
sort of sensory, exploratory, it's

00:11:56.865 --> 00:11:56.866
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:11:56.865 --> 00:11:57.405
interaction.

00:11:57.495 --> 00:11:58.155
That's right.

00:11:58.215 --> 00:11:59.025
It's interaction.

00:11:59.475 --> 00:11:59.625
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:11:59.655 --> 00:11:59.656
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:11:59.655 --> 00:12:02.265
And I remember making
daisy chains as a kid.

00:12:02.270 --> 00:12:02.350
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:12:02.955 --> 00:12:02.956
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:02.955 --> 00:12:05.505
You know, sitting in the
middle of a field doing that.

00:12:06.465 --> 00:12:09.255
These are things that didn't,
you know, cost anything to do.

00:12:09.405 --> 00:12:11.505
Rupert Isaacson: I think that's one that
you just getting me out doing things

00:12:11.505 --> 00:12:11.506
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:11.505 --> 00:12:13.275
and then a little later on.

00:12:13.665 --> 00:12:14.025
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it

00:12:14.025 --> 00:12:14.026
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:14.025 --> 00:12:19.425
would had snow where I lived
and so I, would it be one sled?

00:12:20.550 --> 00:12:24.600
My sister and I had to take turns
going on the sled going down the

00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.720
hill, learn how to take turns.

00:12:28.110 --> 00:12:31.830
Another just in all sorts of activities.

00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:34.020
Rupert Isaacson: The daisy chain
is interesting to me because

00:12:34.020 --> 00:12:35.340
the daisy chain is a task.

00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:40.960
But it's a task that one can do
meditatively and also without

00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:42.160
too much top down instruction.

00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:44.440
'cause one can observe
how somebody else does it.

00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:44.710
Well you just

00:12:44.710 --> 00:12:44.711
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:44.710 --> 00:12:45.850
show them how to do it.

00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:46.090
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:46.510
Yeah.

00:12:46.510 --> 00:12:46.690
But I

00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:46.691
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:49.120
remember making daisy chains as a kid.

00:12:49.450 --> 00:12:51.400
I can remember looking
for four leaf clovers.

00:12:51.760 --> 00:12:52.300
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:12:52.690 --> 00:12:52.691
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:12:52.690 --> 00:12:54.430
And that's another thing we used to do.

00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:57.850
'cause we had a lot of
clover where I lived too.

00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:02.620
And you know, then we'd go for drive.

00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:07.030
So it was a game where you spot different
things when you're out for a drive.

00:13:07.030 --> 00:13:08.350
Can you spot a white horse?

00:13:08.350 --> 00:13:11.500
Can you spot a sign for a
particular type of gas station?

00:13:11.830 --> 00:13:11.920
Mm-hmm.

00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:17.290
And it was a game that, you
know, we played on car trips.

00:13:18.790 --> 00:13:20.410
Make car trips less boring.

00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:21.340
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:13:21.340 --> 00:13:24.760
And I could see how even that the
I spy stuff is actually a task.

00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:25.301
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:26.045
It's 'cause you have a mission.

00:13:26.155 --> 00:13:30.680
It's, I would now remember you know,
it was a little cards that we got and I

00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:32.300
remember what we did find a white horse.

00:13:32.300 --> 00:13:36.530
You had to find a certain sign
for certain brand of gasoline.

00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:37.190
Mm-hmm.

00:13:37.430 --> 00:13:39.740
Certain types of cars you looked for.

00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:45.220
And that gave, I remember doing
this and it gave us you know, made

00:13:45.220 --> 00:13:47.350
a two hour trip, a lot less boring.

00:13:49.330 --> 00:13:51.340
Rupert Isaacson: And of course, one can
do that stuff on the back of a horse.

00:13:51.730 --> 00:13:51.731
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:13:51.730 --> 00:13:52.480
Well the, yeah.

00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:57.010
And the other thing I wanna talk about
is high expectations with accommodations.

00:13:57.160 --> 00:13:57.490
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:13:57.490 --> 00:13:58.150
Tell us about that.

00:13:58.810 --> 00:13:58.811
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:13:58.810 --> 00:14:01.060
I'm hearing, I'm hearing a lot
more problems right now with

00:14:01.060 --> 00:14:03.790
opposition, oppositional defiant,
and all that kind of stuff.

00:14:03.910 --> 00:14:04.150
Mm-hmm.

00:14:05.050 --> 00:14:07.780
And there were certain
things I was expected to do.

00:14:08.275 --> 00:14:10.885
Also wanna let you know, there's
a new book out by Bill Gates.

00:14:11.155 --> 00:14:11.755
It's official.

00:14:11.755 --> 00:14:13.855
He's autistic called Source Code.

00:14:14.515 --> 00:14:19.915
And what's interesting is the way he
was brought up was very similar to me.

00:14:20.995 --> 00:14:24.055
You know, when we were fully verbal,
we had to sell candy for charity

00:14:24.055 --> 00:14:26.185
to learn how to talk to people.

00:14:26.605 --> 00:14:30.205
When we were eight years old, I,
we had to dress up in good clothes.

00:14:30.205 --> 00:14:32.725
And when the parents had a
party talk to the guests.

00:14:33.775 --> 00:14:37.855
Now I'm realizing just how important
that was teaching me on how to go

00:14:37.855 --> 00:14:41.635
up to people, Melissa, about high
expectations with accommodations.

00:14:42.265 --> 00:14:47.545
And he had just the right amount of
pressure to do things with some support

00:14:48.595 --> 00:14:53.725
and, and when we went on vacation,
we had to go on one of these ferries

00:14:53.755 --> 00:14:56.575
where you drive onto it, the cars.

00:14:57.205 --> 00:14:59.545
And this boat had a horrible loud horn.

00:15:00.235 --> 00:15:03.385
And when we were sitting up on the
deck and the horn went up, I found

00:15:03.385 --> 00:15:04.610
myself on the deck and I screamed.

00:15:05.500 --> 00:15:07.450
Now, they did not make
me sit under that horn.

00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:09.790
They let me ride in the cabin below.

00:15:10.180 --> 00:15:11.440
That was the accommodation.

00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:13.180
But we are going on that verity.

00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:13.900
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:15:14.470 --> 00:15:14.471
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:15:14.470 --> 00:15:16.510
But we will make an accommodation.

00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:18.490
You can sit in the cabin below.

00:15:18.790 --> 00:15:19.120
Okay.

00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.930
Today it'd be noise canceling headsets
that did not exist in the fifties.

00:15:22.930 --> 00:15:24.040
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:15:24.041 --> 00:15:24.042
Mm-hmm.

00:15:27.415 --> 00:15:27.416
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:15:27.415 --> 00:15:29.350
But that was the accommodation, you know.

00:15:29.350 --> 00:15:34.870
Then we'd have Sunday dinner at
Granny's or at my aunt's house, and

00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:36.700
I had a place where I could exercise.

00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:42.190
There was a hall I was allowed to
run up and down, and that helped

00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:44.350
to, you know, keep me calmer.

00:15:44.530 --> 00:15:45.490
Then there was some rules.

00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:49.840
You had to sit at the family table
for 20 minutes, and then if I asked

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.500
to be excused and dessert, dessert
hadn't served, didn't get any.

00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:56.230
So if I wanted dessert, I had
to stay at the table longer.

00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:03.190
Also, always some choices
on, on doing things.

00:16:04.765 --> 00:16:05.905
You know, there's things you gotta do.

00:16:05.965 --> 00:16:11.515
We're going to go on that ferry, but
you don't have to sit under the horn.

00:16:11.515 --> 00:16:14.635
You can sit in the cabin under the deck.

00:16:15.595 --> 00:16:16.405
And that's where I went.

00:16:20.215 --> 00:16:26.995
Rupert Isaacson: When we get to the point
where we now want to think about actual

00:16:26.995 --> 00:16:31.675
meaningful tasks, so for example, you,
you were describing selling cookies.

00:16:32.275 --> 00:16:32.276
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:16:32.275 --> 00:16:32.515
Yeah.

00:16:32.694 --> 00:16:37.574
Rupert Isaacson: To learn to, you were
describing learning how to talk to people

00:16:37.574 --> 00:16:41.295
graciously at a dinner par, you know, at
a party when people are being welcomed in.

00:16:42.555 --> 00:16:46.574
One of the things I feel that is a
really sometimes missed opportunity

00:16:46.675 --> 00:16:53.245
in the equine field is that the
kids can do so much around the farm.

00:16:53.995 --> 00:16:53.996
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:16:53.995 --> 00:16:54.565
Exactly.

00:16:54.565 --> 00:16:55.255
Clean the salt and the best

00:16:55.255 --> 00:16:59.485
Rupert Isaacson: programs I see are
the ones where the kids are, or adults

00:16:59.485 --> 00:17:06.505
too, are fully involved to whatever
degree they can be in everything from

00:17:07.225 --> 00:17:12.835
cleaning the poo to landscaping, to
looking after the chickens to Right.

00:17:14.665 --> 00:17:16.945
And also particularly
learning about tools.

00:17:16.945 --> 00:17:17.005
Yeah.

00:17:17.845 --> 00:17:20.155
Talk to us about that because I, well, I

00:17:20.155 --> 00:17:20.156
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:17:20.155 --> 00:17:23.535
can remember weeding the
garden when I was really young.

00:17:24.225 --> 00:17:27.954
You know, we had some landscaping and I
can remember taking weeds out of that.

00:17:28.030 --> 00:17:28.449
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:17:28.764 --> 00:17:28.765
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:17:28.764 --> 00:17:30.655
I was doing that as a really young child.

00:17:30.955 --> 00:17:31.135
Yeah.

00:17:31.165 --> 00:17:34.014
Kids need to get involved
with this sort of stuff.

00:17:38.965 --> 00:17:43.014
Rupert Isaacson: I remember when
I, I think Rowan was, he's now

00:17:43.014 --> 00:17:47.895
23, when he was about 14 I began
to worry that he didn't have.

00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:53.040
A work ethic, even though he was
growing up on a ranch and we'd

00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:55.290
made all sorts of accommodations
and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

00:17:55.290 --> 00:17:58.380
And he was doing all his homeschooling,
but I was thinking, oh man, you

00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:02.730
know, this is his time to build
technical skills and also physical

00:18:02.730 --> 00:18:04.230
strength, and how do I do this?

00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:04.920
How do I do this?

00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:10.410
And so one day I was going out trail
trail clearing, and I had a, a machete

00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:14.430
and I had big clippers to open up a trail.

00:18:14.820 --> 00:18:17.370
And I knew he'd be really scared of that.

00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:21.780
And so I said to him, would you just, he
was talking to me about something and I

00:18:21.780 --> 00:18:25.320
said, what you're saying is fascinating,
but I have to go and clear this trail.

00:18:25.530 --> 00:18:28.740
Would you please come and talk
to me while I do this so I

00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:29.610
don't miss what you're saying?

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.550
And immediately he smelled a rat, you
know, he was like, oh, dad's gonna make

00:18:32.550 --> 00:18:33.660
me do something I don't want to do.

00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.960
So I said, don't worry, I'm not gonna
make you, you know, use these tools, but

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.840
I do need, I do wanna hear what you say.

00:18:40.050 --> 00:18:42.240
So I wanted him to observe me using them.

00:18:42.750 --> 00:18:45.840
And then somewhere into that day I said.

00:18:46.530 --> 00:18:49.139
Do you want to have a go
and cut like one branch?

00:18:49.229 --> 00:18:49.889
And he is like, no.

00:18:49.889 --> 00:18:54.899
He is totally afraid of failure
of the blade of everything.

00:18:55.439 --> 00:18:58.020
And I said, okay, here's my challenge.

00:18:58.199 --> 00:19:01.590
Can you touch it with the tip
of your finger for one second?

00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:03.270
Just one second.

00:19:03.270 --> 00:19:04.500
Can you touch it like that?

00:19:05.219 --> 00:19:07.020
And I made a big joke out of it.

00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:09.395
I touched it myself and they went,
oh my God, you're really hot.

00:19:09.415 --> 00:19:12.060
So I was burning and I fell
on the floor and I pretended

00:19:12.060 --> 00:19:14.159
to, you know, make a big deal.

00:19:14.159 --> 00:19:15.600
He laughed, he thought, found that funny.

00:19:15.689 --> 00:19:17.669
And he did touch it for that one second.

00:19:17.729 --> 00:19:19.949
And then the next day he
touched it for two seconds.

00:19:19.949 --> 00:19:22.679
And by the third day he had a go to clip.

00:19:22.679 --> 00:19:27.610
One thing, fast forward two weeks
later we were in the middle of a

00:19:27.610 --> 00:19:34.780
thicket, Texas heat, mosquitoes,
insects, itching, thorns, scratching.

00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:37.479
And we were hacking and slashing our
way through this and clipping and

00:19:37.479 --> 00:19:39.009
clipping talking about something.

00:19:39.009 --> 00:19:42.070
And I realized that not
two weeks before he'd had.

00:19:42.624 --> 00:19:44.664
Complete fear and resistance.

00:19:44.814 --> 00:19:47.604
And I now had amnesia that
that had ever happened.

00:19:48.235 --> 00:19:51.715
And a sort of penny drop for me about
the need for tools and technical

00:19:51.715 --> 00:19:53.904
skills, but coming into them gradually.

00:19:54.534 --> 00:19:57.955
I've heard you talk quite a lot about
the need for particularly people

00:19:57.955 --> 00:20:04.435
on the spectrum to establish these
hands-on technical tool-based skills.

00:20:05.635 --> 00:20:07.824
Can you talk about why
that's so important?

00:20:09.564 --> 00:20:09.565
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:20:09.564 --> 00:20:12.115
Well, just learning how
to, how to do things.

00:20:12.115 --> 00:20:16.475
I can remember in second grade I was
using screwdriver, pliers, and hammer,

00:20:17.195 --> 00:20:21.185
and I had these little parachutes
and I wanted to design a mechanism

00:20:21.185 --> 00:20:22.624
to make them open more quickly.

00:20:23.284 --> 00:20:29.165
And so I learned how to take the
pliers and cut coat hangers and bend

00:20:29.165 --> 00:20:33.844
like the end so I could make a cross
beam like this, tie the strings

00:20:33.844 --> 00:20:37.445
to, and it wasn't strong enough to
just clip it, but I'd make a dent.

00:20:38.014 --> 00:20:40.235
The coat hanger, and then I'd
go like this and, and break it.

00:20:40.235 --> 00:20:41.074
I remember doing that.

00:20:41.824 --> 00:20:43.084
Rupert Isaacson: Did someone
show you how to do that?

00:20:43.504 --> 00:20:43.505
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:20:43.504 --> 00:20:46.794
Yeah, somebody, yeah, they they
showed me how to use the pliers,

00:20:47.004 --> 00:20:48.114
but I wasn't strong enough.

00:20:48.114 --> 00:20:49.794
I was in second grade to just cut it.

00:20:50.094 --> 00:20:53.754
I, I made a dent and then I bend
it like this and then, then I

00:20:53.754 --> 00:20:56.364
could take the ends of the wire
and bend it and tie the string on.

00:20:56.695 --> 00:20:58.044
I used to tinker for hours.

00:20:58.044 --> 00:21:01.014
With stuff like this, did you have any

00:21:01.014 --> 00:21:02.814
Rupert Isaacson: point where
you were afraid of the tools

00:21:03.894 --> 00:21:03.895
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:21:03.894 --> 00:21:04.824
and Yeah.

00:21:04.824 --> 00:21:05.544
In the beginning, yeah.

00:21:05.544 --> 00:21:09.114
I was kind of afraid of the tool, you
know, and then you learn how to use it.

00:21:09.564 --> 00:21:09.985
Okay.

00:21:09.985 --> 00:21:11.304
Hammering nails with a hammer.

00:21:12.715 --> 00:21:15.475
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember the
process by which you lost your fear?

00:21:16.675 --> 00:21:16.676
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:21:16.675 --> 00:21:17.304
Lost what?

00:21:17.544 --> 00:21:19.050
Rupert Isaacson: You lost the
process by which you lost your fear.

00:21:19.050 --> 00:21:19.449
It started

00:21:19.455 --> 00:21:19.456
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:21:19.455 --> 00:21:21.894
gradually, just gradually using it.

00:21:22.134 --> 00:21:22.465
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:21:23.185 --> 00:21:23.186
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:21:23.185 --> 00:21:26.895
You know, I think that I,
you know, someone had to show

00:21:26.895 --> 00:21:30.795
me how to use it and then.

00:21:31.620 --> 00:21:32.760
Just get me using it.

00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.310
Rupert Isaacson: And I presume
too, people were using these

00:21:35.310 --> 00:21:36.780
tools around you all the time too.

00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:37.560
Yeah, that's right.

00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:37.741
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:37.890
Yeah.

00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:38.070
Yeah.

00:21:38.070 --> 00:21:39.300
Then you, you see it.

00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.140
You see we've got kids growing
up today where they're just

00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:48.750
totally removed from the, the
world of all the practical things,

00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:53.310
and I think that's a big problem.

00:21:54.930 --> 00:21:56.370
Think it's a really big problem.

00:21:57.810 --> 00:21:59.580
Rupert Isaacson: What do you see
as the biggest problem with that?

00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:04.230
Because as you know, up until quite
recently, a lot of people have put their

00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:08.160
faith in tech and said, well, you know,
don't worry about that because all these

00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.550
young autistic kids, they're all gonna
grow up to be techies, so they don't

00:22:11.550 --> 00:22:13.080
need to learn these hands on skills.

00:22:13.350 --> 00:22:13.890
I've heard that.

00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:14.075
I think it's

00:22:14.075 --> 00:22:14.076
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:22:14.075 --> 00:22:14.435
ridiculous.

00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:15.690
I think it's ridiculous.

00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:20.520
We've got to get them out just doing
things and then showing them how to do it.

00:22:21.060 --> 00:22:26.550
I can remember walking on the beach and
getting, picking up shells, and then we'd

00:22:26.550 --> 00:22:29.220
make mosaics and we glue them shells to.

00:22:29.939 --> 00:22:31.860
Cardboard and make artwork.

00:22:32.429 --> 00:22:36.540
And I was shown how to use the glue
in, stick the shells on the cardboard.

00:22:37.439 --> 00:22:42.889
I remember making a turtle that had
shells for its, you know, made the

00:22:42.889 --> 00:22:44.830
shell, the turtle out of shells.

00:22:46.510 --> 00:22:48.699
But someone, you know, someone
shows you how to do it.

00:22:49.179 --> 00:22:52.330
And then I really liked
doing those things.

00:22:54.669 --> 00:22:58.209
Rupert Isaacson: What's the
neuroscience more or less of

00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:00.129
learning how to use these tools?

00:23:00.129 --> 00:23:01.270
Like what does it do to your brain?

00:23:01.270 --> 00:23:02.080
Why is it important?

00:23:03.070 --> 00:23:03.071
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:23:03.070 --> 00:23:06.340
Well, I give another, my sister and
I outside rock collections and one

00:23:06.340 --> 00:23:10.060
of the things we love to do is take
a hammer and bust a rock in half

00:23:10.330 --> 00:23:12.100
to see what it looked like inside.

00:23:12.580 --> 00:23:12.699
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:23:13.510 --> 00:23:13.511
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:23:13.510 --> 00:23:19.120
And we did quite a bit of that
on, see what happened today.

00:23:19.419 --> 00:23:21.909
Like their apartment buildings
right near where I live.

00:23:22.764 --> 00:23:25.284
You never even know that
kids live in those buildings.

00:23:25.435 --> 00:23:25.524
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:23:25.855 --> 00:23:25.856
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:23:25.855 --> 00:23:28.524
Except I see the school bus
unloading them and loading them.

00:23:29.485 --> 00:23:34.105
That's the only way I would know that,
you know, five year olds, six year

00:23:34.105 --> 00:23:37.284
olds, seven year olds, you know, fairly
little kids living in that building.

00:23:37.855 --> 00:23:40.915
Even though it has a nice fenced in
playground, I never see the kids on it.

00:23:42.445 --> 00:23:44.335
I think that's a, a shame.

00:23:44.605 --> 00:23:48.264
And there's a lot of controversy now about
problems with social media being bad.

00:23:48.925 --> 00:23:51.295
We just gotta get 'em, limit the screens.

00:23:51.685 --> 00:23:51.775
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:23:52.015 --> 00:23:52.016
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:23:52.015 --> 00:23:53.875
And get them out doing real stuff.

00:23:54.325 --> 00:23:55.615
All kinds of real stuff.

00:23:56.995 --> 00:23:57.235
Rupert Isaacson: Again,

00:23:57.445 --> 00:23:57.446
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:23:57.445 --> 00:23:58.315
what And choices.

00:23:58.525 --> 00:24:01.915
And this was done with Bill Gates
on his mother, put him in Cub

00:24:01.915 --> 00:24:05.155
Scouts, get him out doing things.

00:24:07.465 --> 00:24:10.045
You know, when we went away for the
summer, there was a neighborhood

00:24:10.285 --> 00:24:14.365
children's group where we'd play softball
and different organized games with

00:24:14.365 --> 00:24:18.115
maybe, you know, seven or eight kids and.

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:22.480
That got me out out of
my room doing things.

00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.380
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:23.381
Mm-hmm.

00:24:23.425 --> 00:24:23.426
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:24:23.425 --> 00:24:24.910
We've gotta get 'em out doing things.

00:24:24.910 --> 00:24:27.010
And if you have horses, a available great.

00:24:27.820 --> 00:24:29.830
And then the kids should be
helping to clean the stalls

00:24:29.830 --> 00:24:31.600
and take care of the horses.

00:24:34.300 --> 00:24:38.530
Rupert Isaacson: What back, I think
it, it's helpful for people to actually

00:24:38.530 --> 00:24:43.450
sort of understand a little bit what
goes on in the brain if kids do do

00:24:43.450 --> 00:24:48.430
this stuff and what doesn't go on in
the brain if they don't do this stuff.

00:24:48.940 --> 00:24:50.080
Do you have any insights there?

00:24:50.615 --> 00:24:50.616
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:24:50.615 --> 00:24:50.905
Well

00:24:53.560 --> 00:24:55.360
see, just getting out and
doing the motor stuff.

00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:58.360
I mean, the occupational therapist
all the time talking about heavy

00:24:58.360 --> 00:25:00.910
work and exercise is calming.

00:25:01.750 --> 00:25:01.840
Mm-hmm.

00:25:01.890 --> 00:25:06.090
But I worked with people that
owned big machine shops that

00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:07.170
were definitely autistic.

00:25:07.530 --> 00:25:07.650
Mm-hmm.

00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:09.150
You know, and they just
grew up with tools.

00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:11.610
They took shop class when
I was in, in high school.

00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:13.800
I think one of the worst
things the schools have done.

00:25:14.445 --> 00:25:15.855
Taking out the hands-on classes.

00:25:16.395 --> 00:25:16.545
Right.

00:25:16.545 --> 00:25:19.855
When I was in elementary school
I did shop class in fifth grade.

00:25:20.305 --> 00:25:23.335
I was sewing with a to toy sewing
machine that actually sewed

00:25:23.335 --> 00:25:25.015
in fourth grade, first grade.

00:25:25.015 --> 00:25:28.945
We did all kinds of clay projects, and of
course in my generation we made ashtrays.

00:25:29.245 --> 00:25:31.045
That would never happen now.

00:25:31.795 --> 00:25:38.365
But our school had all of these
hands-on activities and I, and

00:25:39.565 --> 00:25:41.305
we can't do everything online.

00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:42.180
Rupert Isaacson: No.

00:25:44.395 --> 00:25:45.300
A again, if we, I mean,

00:25:45.300 --> 00:25:45.301
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:25:45.300 --> 00:25:49.275
I think we need to be, be I, we were
limited to one hour of television a day.

00:25:49.275 --> 00:25:49.365
Mm-hmm.

00:25:49.905 --> 00:25:50.115
Rupert Isaacson: Period

00:25:51.465 --> 00:25:51.466
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:25:51.465 --> 00:25:52.060
wasn't banned.

00:25:53.080 --> 00:25:54.765
And mother had to approve the shows.

00:25:54.975 --> 00:25:59.775
You know, Lassie was definitely
approved also on the news.

00:25:59.775 --> 00:26:02.115
You didn't see some of the
stuff you're seeing now.

00:26:02.145 --> 00:26:02.745
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:26:03.195 --> 00:26:03.196
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:26:03.195 --> 00:26:05.265
The news was just talking
heads and kind of boring.

00:26:05.265 --> 00:26:07.005
I didn't wanna watch that in the fifties.

00:26:07.515 --> 00:26:08.116
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm mm.

00:26:10.995 --> 00:26:13.275
If you don't cultivate these motor skills,

00:26:15.945 --> 00:26:18.405
what is the cost to the brain?

00:26:20.985 --> 00:26:23.655
What does not happen that should happen?

00:26:25.815 --> 00:26:25.816
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:26:25.815 --> 00:26:28.615
I think there's just one thing
that calms the kids down.

00:26:28.705 --> 00:26:28.915
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:26:28.921 --> 00:26:29.070
Doing

00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:29.246
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:29.935
these things.

00:26:30.955 --> 00:26:33.355
Also, I look at things
very career oriented.

00:26:33.805 --> 00:26:33.985
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:26:33.985 --> 00:26:34.225
These are,

00:26:34.435 --> 00:26:34.436
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:26:34.435 --> 00:26:36.175
this can lead to careers.

00:26:36.685 --> 00:26:38.965
Now, let's say you have a kid
that, that's good at math.

00:26:39.055 --> 00:26:42.025
Now that's not gonna show up in a
3-year-old, but let's say around

00:26:42.025 --> 00:26:44.515
age six, seven, really good at math.

00:26:44.575 --> 00:26:45.715
You need to move ahead in math.

00:26:46.615 --> 00:26:48.235
Don't do baby boring math.

00:26:49.105 --> 00:26:49.915
Move ahead.

00:26:50.455 --> 00:26:51.505
That's not being done.

00:26:52.525 --> 00:26:57.835
See, there's kind of a philosophy in a
lot of our schools that kids are just all

00:26:57.835 --> 00:27:02.365
the same and they're not all the same.

00:27:04.795 --> 00:27:05.125
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

00:27:06.010 --> 00:27:06.011
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:27:06.010 --> 00:27:07.810
We need to be building on strengths.

00:27:07.810 --> 00:27:12.700
I mean, my art ability was encouraged
and I was encouraged to draw lots and

00:27:12.700 --> 00:27:14.470
lots of different kinds of things.

00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:23.200
Rupert Isaacson: So these days, or until
recently anyway, there has been, like

00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.600
I said, I had this great faith in tech.

00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:31.240
And because so many techies are on
the spectrum, I think there's been

00:27:31.450 --> 00:27:35.980
perhaps a bit of a skewed perspective
that, well, it doesn't matter if these

00:27:36.280 --> 00:27:40.060
kids grew up with practical skills
because they're gonna go on and become

00:27:41.320 --> 00:27:42.910
techies working in the tech industry.

00:27:43.840 --> 00:27:43.841
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:27:43.840 --> 00:27:45.100
Well, I think you, what do you think about

00:27:45.100 --> 00:27:45.370
Rupert Isaacson: that?

00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:46.601
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:49.060
Well, yeah, I go ahead and work in
the tech industry, but you still

00:27:49.060 --> 00:27:51.100
need to be doing practical things.

00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:51.430
Mm-hmm.

00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:54.190
And let's look at Steve Chops.

00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:58.390
He was playing around with tools
in his next door neighbor's garage.

00:27:58.510 --> 00:27:58.840
Mm-hmm.

00:27:59.350 --> 00:28:01.420
What Steve Chops was doing.

00:28:03.385 --> 00:28:04.375
Rupert Isaacson: Because one, I know he

00:28:04.375 --> 00:28:04.376
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:28:04.375 --> 00:28:06.805
wasn't, it wasn't just all devices.

00:28:08.005 --> 00:28:08.575
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:28:08.635 --> 00:28:14.095
And it, it seems to me that with
AI coming in so fast, a lot of the

00:28:14.095 --> 00:28:17.365
tech jobs of the last 20 years,
oh, we're, we're will change.

00:28:17.365 --> 00:28:17.755
Right?

00:28:17.755 --> 00:28:17.905
We're not

00:28:17.905 --> 00:28:17.906
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:28:17.905 --> 00:28:21.160
getting the, another reason for
teaching skilled trades is they'll

00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:22.375
be laughing all the way to the bank.

00:28:22.465 --> 00:28:26.785
They'll have jobs when other people
are getting laid off, low level

00:28:26.785 --> 00:28:28.705
programming's already getting replaced.

00:28:29.215 --> 00:28:31.915
Video game industry just laid
off a whole ton of people.

00:28:32.365 --> 00:28:35.095
I've been reading in the Wall Street
Journal, this corporate office

00:28:35.095 --> 00:28:36.625
now laid off a bunch of people.

00:28:36.985 --> 00:28:38.425
Some companies do it nicely.

00:28:38.425 --> 00:28:39.985
Some companies do it nasty.

00:28:40.915 --> 00:28:45.805
And, but some of these jobs are
gonna be getting replaced with ai

00:28:46.345 --> 00:28:48.535
where things like fixing elevators.

00:28:49.315 --> 00:28:52.315
It's not, and as I travel around,
I'm seeing way too many elevators

00:28:52.435 --> 00:28:53.635
that are not being serviced.

00:28:56.260 --> 00:29:00.100
Broken or making really weird
ominous noises, like I'm gonna

00:29:00.100 --> 00:29:01.510
get stuck in it right now.

00:29:01.990 --> 00:29:04.540
And I was in the hotels the
other day where one of the cars,

00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:05.770
there were six elevators there.

00:29:05.890 --> 00:29:08.470
So that one on the left
we're not going in.

00:29:09.340 --> 00:29:10.690
I don't like the way it's acting.

00:29:10.690 --> 00:29:11.830
We'll wait for another one.

00:29:12.610 --> 00:29:12.790
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:29:13.810 --> 00:29:13.811
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:13.810 --> 00:29:16.570
Getting stuck in an elevators,
not something I wanna do.

00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:18.525
Rupert Isaacson: Now, some
people would say that I

00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:18.526
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:19.780
don't need to have that experience.

00:29:20.110 --> 00:29:22.120
Rupert Isaacson: Some people would
say that, oh, well all those jobs

00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:23.710
are gonna be replaced by robots.

00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:23.951
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:24.370
No

00:29:24.790 --> 00:29:25.420
Rupert Isaacson: bs.

00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:25.990
Why?

00:29:25.990 --> 00:29:26.890
Why is that bs?

00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:27.401
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.670
Well, one of the problems is, is you've
got lots of different kinds of elevators.

00:29:30.760 --> 00:29:30.850
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:29:32.110 --> 00:29:32.111
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:32.110 --> 00:29:33.790
You've got some so variable.

00:29:34.570 --> 00:29:37.450
And I wanna talk now some about
the different kinds of thinkers.

00:29:37.690 --> 00:29:37.780
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:29:38.020 --> 00:29:38.110
And

00:29:38.110 --> 00:29:38.111
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:29:38.110 --> 00:29:39.730
I discussed that in my book.

00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:40.590
Visual thinking.

00:29:41.370 --> 00:29:43.650
And I'm an object visualizer.

00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:47.370
So the kinds of things I'm gonna
be good at building things, working

00:29:47.370 --> 00:29:50.220
with animals, 'cause animals
that live in a sensory world.

00:29:50.850 --> 00:29:53.880
Photography and art, and then
you have your mathematical mind.

00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:59.580
That's totally, you know, interested
patterns, music and math go together.

00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:02.250
And then you got the autistic
kids, more of a word thinker.

00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:06.270
They, they know all the word facts
about their favorite movies or favorite

00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:08.730
type of sports, something like that.

00:30:09.450 --> 00:30:09.870
And,

00:30:12.570 --> 00:30:16.170
and the ones that are object visualizers,
like me, we can't do higher math.

00:30:17.190 --> 00:30:19.860
I'm worried that algebra
requirements are gonna screen us out.

00:30:20.070 --> 00:30:21.270
But you need us.

00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:24.940
I had a very interesting flight
on a plane just about a month ago.

00:30:25.370 --> 00:30:28.340
Talked to a military VE
veteran, went in the army and

00:30:28.340 --> 00:30:30.200
she failed algebra in college.

00:30:30.830 --> 00:30:35.660
But she took the mechanical aptitude test
for the army, got a super high score.

00:30:35.810 --> 00:30:37.790
They put her to work fixing airplanes.

00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:41.690
Mechanical aptitude is a skill.

00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:43.460
It is, that's definitely merit based.

00:30:44.135 --> 00:30:46.595
And our school system doesn't
put any value on that.

00:30:46.625 --> 00:30:51.095
They value mathematical skill
and they value language skill,

00:30:51.935 --> 00:30:53.495
but not mechanical aptitude.

00:30:55.055 --> 00:30:56.795
And I think that's a problem.

00:30:57.515 --> 00:31:00.065
Rupert Isaacson: As you say, you
know, shop has been taken out

00:31:00.515 --> 00:31:00.516
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:31:00.515 --> 00:31:03.665
well and what we're doing, we're
putting shop back in the community

00:31:03.665 --> 00:31:05.795
colleges, but that's almost too late.

00:31:06.245 --> 00:31:10.325
We need to be hooking
kids much earlier on.

00:31:10.325 --> 00:31:11.555
Tools and things like that.

00:31:11.555 --> 00:31:15.455
And I was doing this stuff in, well,
in Europe you'd call primary school.

00:31:15.635 --> 00:31:15.785
Mm-hmm.

00:31:15.785 --> 00:31:17.195
We call it elementary school.

00:31:18.125 --> 00:31:21.425
On working on these things really early.

00:31:23.495 --> 00:31:26.205
Rupert Isaacson: Should we, in that
case if we're right, if we're equine

00:31:26.205 --> 00:31:30.885
practitioners, should we have a shop,
should we have a workshop where,

00:31:31.095 --> 00:31:31.096
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:31:31.095 --> 00:31:32.805
well, I think we ought to have a workshop

00:31:33.075 --> 00:31:34.545
Rupert Isaacson: because
this is often not there.

00:31:34.785 --> 00:31:38.010
You know, it's often, you know,
kids come, they're, they're put on a

00:31:38.010 --> 00:31:41.385
horse, they're given their session.

00:31:42.405 --> 00:31:43.185
And then they go home.

00:31:43.905 --> 00:31:43.906
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:31:43.905 --> 00:31:47.565
Well, I think we need to be, you know,
I think get the kids involved with

00:31:47.775 --> 00:31:52.245
everything, with the horse, putting a
tack on the horse grooming a horse before

00:31:52.245 --> 00:31:55.365
and after cleaning stalls, feeding them.

00:31:56.325 --> 00:31:57.645
Rupert Isaacson: Does it
need to go further than that?

00:31:57.645 --> 00:31:59.715
Do we need to be working,
doing the leather work?

00:31:59.715 --> 00:32:02.865
Do we need to be sewing up,
you know, boards to build

00:32:03.315 --> 00:32:05.055
new store, the fencing, the,

00:32:05.415 --> 00:32:05.416
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:32:05.415 --> 00:32:07.905
you know, well, yeah, and I, when I
took care of horses when I was in high

00:32:07.905 --> 00:32:11.085
school and the horse kicked a hole in the
back of the stall, yeah, I did fix it.

00:32:11.355 --> 00:32:11.685
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:32:12.015 --> 00:32:12.016
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:32:12.015 --> 00:32:17.115
Something that I did and, and
I did do some carpentry, simple

00:32:17.115 --> 00:32:18.435
carpentry work on the barn.

00:32:18.975 --> 00:32:21.345
But I remember one of the horses,
I kicked the whole back of the

00:32:21.345 --> 00:32:26.595
stall out and I went and I found
these super hard old oak boards.

00:32:26.925 --> 00:32:31.815
It was so hard you couldn't nail nails
from and put them up in the back of the

00:32:31.815 --> 00:32:34.365
stall, and he was not able to kick those.

00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:37.380
Rupert Isaacson: So would
it be a really good idea?

00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.620
For example, let's say you are
an overworked person running a

00:32:40.620 --> 00:32:43.710
therapeutic riding program and you
are just busy with the whole thing.

00:32:44.070 --> 00:32:46.650
You talked earlier about
getting retirees into help.

00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:47.221
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:49.080
Well, we need to be getting retirees in.

00:32:49.085 --> 00:32:53.055
And the other thing is, I know
that like in a path program they ev

00:32:53.055 --> 00:32:56.235
everyone's very concerned about safety,
getting sued and stuff like that.

00:32:56.235 --> 00:32:57.525
Mm-hmm.

00:32:57.576 --> 00:33:00.756
That can get to the point where that
can cripple you because I'd like to

00:33:00.756 --> 00:33:04.746
see retired mechanic come in and start
teaching some auto shop to some of these.

00:33:05.196 --> 00:33:05.526
Absolutely.

00:33:05.526 --> 00:33:11.796
Not the five year olds, but some of
the older kids and, and some of the

00:33:11.796 --> 00:33:14.886
people that are, that are in the tech
industry have been extremely successful.

00:33:15.336 --> 00:33:17.046
Weren't just all screens.

00:33:17.046 --> 00:33:19.446
They were out doing all
kinds of hands-on stuff.

00:33:19.716 --> 00:33:20.196
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

00:33:20.226 --> 00:33:23.976
Well, yes, the generation that created
the tech industry, of course there were

00:33:23.976 --> 00:33:25.416
no screens when they were growing up.

00:33:25.686 --> 00:33:26.046
Well, the

00:33:26.046 --> 00:33:26.047
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:33:26.046 --> 00:33:30.816
other difference on the video games
is that some of the older tech people.

00:33:31.416 --> 00:33:33.396
When video games would crash all the time.

00:33:33.636 --> 00:33:33.666
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:33:33.666 --> 00:33:33.996
And

00:33:33.996 --> 00:33:33.997
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:33:33.996 --> 00:33:36.666
instead of just coming up with a blue
screen of death saying the system's

00:33:36.666 --> 00:33:39.096
crashed all this code would show up.

00:33:39.936 --> 00:33:41.706
I call it a computer showing its guts.

00:33:42.156 --> 00:33:42.216
Okay.

00:33:42.216 --> 00:33:45.606
When the old systems crashed, you
then got a blue screen full of code.

00:33:45.606 --> 00:33:46.116
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:33:46.506 --> 00:33:46.507
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:33:46.506 --> 00:33:48.486
Well, that would get the kid interested.

00:33:48.876 --> 00:33:50.286
That doesn't happen now.

00:33:50.796 --> 00:33:51.066
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:51.906 --> 00:33:51.907
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:33:51.906 --> 00:33:54.636
They just get, it's just off
and there's now system error.

00:33:54.636 --> 00:34:00.066
I remember when, when Microsoft crashed
and all the airport screens were blue.

00:34:01.056 --> 00:34:02.616
But it doesn't show code.

00:34:03.576 --> 00:34:05.856
The older stuff, when it
broke, it showed code.

00:34:06.396 --> 00:34:07.896
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to
me what you're really talking

00:34:07.896 --> 00:34:09.036
about here is problem solving.

00:34:09.546 --> 00:34:09.547
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:34:09.546 --> 00:34:09.816
Yep.

00:34:09.816 --> 00:34:12.756
And then the other thing with some
of the older stuff, they were making

00:34:12.756 --> 00:34:18.006
hardware too, actually putting
computers components together.

00:34:18.666 --> 00:34:18.996
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:34:19.356 --> 00:34:19.357
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:34:19.356 --> 00:34:21.846
It was much more, much more hands-on.

00:34:23.631 --> 00:34:23.811
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:34:23.811 --> 00:34:24.831
Building motherboards.

00:34:25.521 --> 00:34:25.522
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:34:25.521 --> 00:34:25.851
Yeah.

00:34:25.851 --> 00:34:27.051
And that's building things.

00:34:27.621 --> 00:34:27.891
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:34:27.891 --> 00:34:27.951
Yeah.

00:34:28.191 --> 00:34:28.192
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:34:28.191 --> 00:34:31.341
And, and now it's just all online.

00:34:32.631 --> 00:34:33.051
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:34:34.761 --> 00:34:35.211
Okay.

00:34:35.301 --> 00:34:36.501
So I'm listening to this.

00:34:36.501 --> 00:34:39.181
I'm a therapeutic riding barn owner.

00:34:39.761 --> 00:34:41.441
Let's say, okay, I've, I've heard you.

00:34:41.441 --> 00:34:43.991
So I'm gonna reach out to my
local retirement communities.

00:34:43.991 --> 00:34:48.011
I'm gonna find who are the
people there who know how to

00:34:48.431 --> 00:34:49.571
have these practical skills.

00:34:50.831 --> 00:34:57.371
I create a workshop, a shop where all
this technical stuff is going on in the

00:34:57.371 --> 00:35:00.251
therapeutic riding campus, if you like.

00:35:00.251 --> 00:35:00.252
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:35:00.251 --> 00:35:00.461
Yeah.

00:35:00.461 --> 00:35:04.091
At broadening it out, you know, and
I think horses are very part of, but

00:35:04.091 --> 00:35:08.501
the other thing I did for the horses
is I spent hours getting ready for

00:35:08.551 --> 00:35:10.961
junior show English acquisition.

00:35:11.381 --> 00:35:16.691
I also showed in a small
open, regular horse show, just

00:35:16.691 --> 00:35:18.311
a little small local show.

00:35:19.016 --> 00:35:23.966
And I would go in the trail class and we
had to practice going up and opening a

00:35:23.966 --> 00:35:29.936
mailbox and, but we showed in horse shows
open to the public real horse shows.

00:35:30.716 --> 00:35:30.896
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:35:31.586 --> 00:35:31.587
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:35:31.586 --> 00:35:34.256
Myself and my roommate, and
we went to the special school.

00:35:34.256 --> 00:35:35.156
I think that was important.

00:35:35.276 --> 00:35:36.956
We went to real horse shows.

00:35:36.961 --> 00:35:37.171
Mm-hmm.

00:35:37.176 --> 00:35:43.046
And we showed in them, and they were
either a four H show or a very small

00:35:43.076 --> 00:35:48.686
little local horse show, but it was
still an open normal horse show.

00:35:48.686 --> 00:35:48.806
There's

00:35:49.981 --> 00:35:50.306
Rupert Isaacson: a, and then you

00:35:50.306 --> 00:35:50.307
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:35:50.306 --> 00:35:53.366
gotta learn, then you gotta learn
all the behaviors you gotta do there.

00:35:54.236 --> 00:35:54.566
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:35:54.656 --> 00:35:55.226
Mm-hmm.

00:35:55.316 --> 00:35:56.261
And have to deal with the long day.

00:35:56.516 --> 00:35:56.517
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:35:56.516 --> 00:36:01.466
And that, that's, I had two parts of
horses getting ready for show, going to

00:36:01.466 --> 00:36:04.226
horse shows, and then taking care of 'em.

00:36:04.646 --> 00:36:04.736
Mm-hmm.

00:36:06.896 --> 00:36:08.636
I clean nine stalls every day.

00:36:09.146 --> 00:36:09.746
I fed them.

00:36:09.746 --> 00:36:10.886
I was very responsible.

00:36:10.886 --> 00:36:15.116
When somebody says responsibility,
I see this big wooden grain box and

00:36:15.116 --> 00:36:19.766
that Purina lina it and you gotta
shut that lid and turn the latch.

00:36:20.126 --> 00:36:22.076
'cause if a horse gets
into that, they can die.

00:36:22.826 --> 00:36:23.066
Rupert Isaacson: When I

00:36:23.066 --> 00:36:23.067
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:36:23.066 --> 00:36:26.936
think of responsibility, I make sure I
put the lid down and I turn the latch.

00:36:28.526 --> 00:36:30.236
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember yourself?

00:36:30.236 --> 00:36:30.237
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:36:30.236 --> 00:36:33.926
I remember that very well and,
and they trusted me that I would

00:36:33.926 --> 00:36:38.696
always close that box and, and turn
the latch after I fed the horses.

00:36:41.156 --> 00:36:45.146
Rupert Isaacson: What's your memory,
personally of when you came from

00:36:45.146 --> 00:36:47.486
sort of non-verbal to verbal?

00:36:48.116 --> 00:36:55.016
Do you have a sense in your memory of
like fog clearing or something like that?

00:36:55.226 --> 00:36:55.227
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:36:55.226 --> 00:36:55.286
No.

00:36:55.286 --> 00:37:00.056
It was more like I could, if grownups
talked fast, it went to gibber.

00:37:00.326 --> 00:37:00.686
Hmm.

00:37:02.516 --> 00:37:06.116
If grownups talked slowly, I could
understand fact, I thought the

00:37:06.116 --> 00:37:07.406
grownups had their own language.

00:37:07.406 --> 00:37:08.606
I used to call it grownup talk.

00:37:09.731 --> 00:37:14.201
And, and then as I started to get
my words, and it came in a few

00:37:14.201 --> 00:37:18.521
stressed words at a time, single
words, I was slow to get it out.

00:37:20.081 --> 00:37:21.521
And it was very frustrating.

00:37:21.521 --> 00:37:25.871
I remember when I was five, and by this
time I was verbal, I was in kindergarten

00:37:25.871 --> 00:37:30.761
class and we had a little assignment
where there were pictures of things

00:37:30.761 --> 00:37:38.181
like a bicycle, a suitcase, a bird
bath and other things, and a house.

00:37:38.571 --> 00:37:41.481
And we had to mark all the pictures
that began with B as in beautiful.

00:37:41.991 --> 00:37:44.811
So I marked a suitcase for B for bag.

00:37:45.741 --> 00:37:45.921
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, and

00:37:45.921 --> 00:37:45.922
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:37:45.921 --> 00:37:50.841
the teacher marked it wrong, and I
wasn't given time to explain that

00:37:50.841 --> 00:37:55.251
we called suitcases bags, that
I did understand the B concept.

00:37:55.281 --> 00:37:56.151
I was five.

00:37:56.151 --> 00:37:56.841
Mm-hmm.

00:37:56.901 --> 00:37:59.811
And it, I, I just couldn't
get it out fast enough.

00:37:59.871 --> 00:38:01.011
That was very frustrating.

00:38:01.791 --> 00:38:04.851
I could talk at this point, but
it was like a slow computer.

00:38:05.721 --> 00:38:07.431
It took me time to get it out.

00:38:09.056 --> 00:38:11.916
Rupert Isaacson: When did that change
and why did that change, do you think?

00:38:12.276 --> 00:38:12.277
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:38:12.276 --> 00:38:15.666
Well, I think just as I
developed, I got better,

00:38:16.356 --> 00:38:17.616
Rupert Isaacson: but
not everybody got better

00:38:17.916 --> 00:38:17.917
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:38:17.916 --> 00:38:18.606
by that time.

00:38:18.606 --> 00:38:21.066
By that time I could, well, I
remember a time before I could talk

00:38:21.246 --> 00:38:21.336
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

00:38:22.026 --> 00:38:22.027
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:38:22.026 --> 00:38:26.886
Getting extremely frustrated, didn't wanna
wear a hat, and we were in the driveway.

00:38:26.886 --> 00:38:31.176
We were gonna drive to the little school
that the, the teachers taught out in their

00:38:31.176 --> 00:38:32.886
house where it got early intervention.

00:38:34.506 --> 00:38:36.966
So I just thought, I'm gonna scream
and throw it on the floor of the car.

00:38:37.266 --> 00:38:38.136
Melissa said, pick it up.

00:38:38.616 --> 00:38:43.416
So then I chucked it out the window on the
drive our driveway to made me go get it.

00:38:45.156 --> 00:38:47.916
And then I got the brilliant
idea of throwing it out the

00:38:47.916 --> 00:38:49.236
window when we were driving.

00:38:50.346 --> 00:38:54.876
But back in the fifties, cars
had crank windows and I wasn't

00:38:54.876 --> 00:38:56.226
strong enough to turn the crank.

00:38:56.886 --> 00:38:58.176
So mother had her window open.

00:38:58.176 --> 00:39:03.966
So I leaned over her and I chucked the
hat and that caused it to swerve and, and

00:39:03.966 --> 00:39:06.336
we got sideswiped by a tractor trailer.

00:39:07.086 --> 00:39:08.436
Very lucky we weren't killed.

00:39:10.146 --> 00:39:13.476
But I can remember thinking to
myself, I'm gonna scream now.

00:39:14.436 --> 00:39:16.776
This is how I'm gonna say
I don't wanna wear the hat.

00:39:18.936 --> 00:39:20.136
I actually thought about that.

00:39:20.886 --> 00:39:24.306
See now I may have been, you know,
quite younger than five by five.

00:39:24.306 --> 00:39:27.936
I could talk, but I was
slow to get the words out.

00:39:28.506 --> 00:39:32.616
I remember this assignment very
clearly with the, when I marked the

00:39:32.916 --> 00:39:40.386
suitcase B for bag and they didn't
give me time to explain in our house.

00:39:41.136 --> 00:39:42.006
Those were bags.

00:39:43.386 --> 00:39:44.616
And that began with B.

00:39:47.616 --> 00:39:52.326
Rupert Isaacson: You had then developed
where you could compute language

00:39:52.326 --> 00:39:53.856
faster and get it out well, yeah,

00:39:53.856 --> 00:39:53.857
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:39:53.856 --> 00:39:54.246
I did.

00:39:54.246 --> 00:39:57.036
I got a whole lot better
and, but it came slowly.

00:39:57.036 --> 00:39:58.506
I was not an oleic kid.

00:39:58.551 --> 00:39:58.641
Right.

00:39:59.001 --> 00:39:59.661
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely

00:39:59.661 --> 00:39:59.662
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:39:59.661 --> 00:40:00.886
not the echoic type.

00:40:01.026 --> 00:40:02.286
Rupert Isaacson: You
were not echoic, okay.

00:40:02.301 --> 00:40:02.781
Absolutely

00:40:02.781 --> 00:40:02.782
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:40:02.781 --> 00:40:03.081
not.

00:40:03.351 --> 00:40:03.411
Okay.

00:40:03.411 --> 00:40:03.561
No.

00:40:03.561 --> 00:40:09.681
My speech came in a few stressed
words at a time, singing words.

00:40:09.681 --> 00:40:10.581
When you say stressed

00:40:10.581 --> 00:40:12.111
Rupert Isaacson: words, what
do you mean by that exactly?

00:40:12.111 --> 00:40:12.291
Well,

00:40:12.291 --> 00:40:12.292
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:40:12.291 --> 00:40:14.151
I might go B football.

00:40:14.421 --> 00:40:14.811
Rupert Isaacson: I see.

00:40:15.531 --> 00:40:15.532
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:40:15.531 --> 00:40:22.671
And I didn't hear the the B and the L so
my speech did a lot of slow enunciation.

00:40:23.001 --> 00:40:28.221
Like she'd hold up a cup and she'd
go cup, and then she'd go cup pa.

00:40:30.111 --> 00:40:36.351
Really put, slowing it down and
enunciating those hard constant sounds

00:40:36.981 --> 00:40:38.686
because otherwise I to have, ugh.

00:40:40.911 --> 00:40:43.761
You see, my problem was I've got
some auditory processing problems

00:40:44.151 --> 00:40:48.851
and I don't hear consonants,
like if you said sat or rat.

00:40:51.011 --> 00:40:52.120
I don't think I've ratted.

00:40:52.180 --> 00:40:54.160
I, you know, rat on a chair.

00:40:54.731 --> 00:40:55.721
I sat on a chair.

00:40:59.050 --> 00:40:59.560
And,

00:41:02.020 --> 00:41:04.631
and I still have to figure out
some of those words by context.

00:41:05.171 --> 00:41:05.441
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:41:06.461 --> 00:41:06.462
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:41:06.461 --> 00:41:11.231
I don't think I'd have a pet
bat, but I might have a pet cat.

00:41:12.850 --> 00:41:14.410
I just deliberately emphasize.

00:41:14.410 --> 00:41:14.892
Sounds there.

00:41:17.155 --> 00:41:17.445
Rupert Isaacson: Well,

00:41:17.546 --> 00:41:17.547
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:41:17.546 --> 00:41:19.925
do you, you think I
definitely not echoic that.

00:41:20.265 --> 00:41:20.485
Do

00:41:20.485 --> 00:41:20.770
Rupert Isaacson: you think

00:41:20.921 --> 00:41:20.922
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:41:20.921 --> 00:41:24.100
I had, well I had some auditory
processing 'cause when the grownups

00:41:24.100 --> 00:41:25.570
talked too fast, it went to GI British.

00:41:25.575 --> 00:41:25.725
Mm-hmm.

00:41:25.930 --> 00:41:26.171
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:41:28.166 --> 00:41:31.006
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:41:31.006 --> 00:41:34.926
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:41:34.996 --> 00:41:39.266
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:41:39.326 --> 00:41:44.906
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:41:45.501 --> 00:41:51.811
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:41:51.811 --> 00:41:54.481
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:41:54.481 --> 00:41:57.361
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:41:57.701 --> 00:42:00.971
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:42:01.466 --> 00:42:06.416
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:42:07.076 --> 00:42:08.516
It works incredibly well.

00:42:08.516 --> 00:42:10.236
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:42:10.946 --> 00:42:11.696
Check it out.

00:42:12.376 --> 00:42:16.526
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:42:16.536 --> 00:42:19.906
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:42:19.906 --> 00:42:21.656
applied in schools, in homes.

00:42:21.856 --> 00:42:26.846
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:42:26.846 --> 00:42:28.386
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:42:29.741 --> 00:42:31.021
when they're not with you.

00:42:31.531 --> 00:42:34.971
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:42:35.331 --> 00:42:37.951
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:42:37.951 --> 00:42:41.951
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:42:41.981 --> 00:42:46.271
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:42:46.711 --> 00:42:50.051
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:42:50.071 --> 00:42:54.311
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:42:54.511 --> 00:42:58.801
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:42:58.801 --> 00:43:02.101
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:43:02.101 --> 00:43:05.196
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:43:05.436 --> 00:43:09.936
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:43:10.266 --> 00:43:11.916
absolutely gives you this.

00:43:11.976 --> 00:43:14.706
And it's interesting 'cause you know,
I'm in a position now where I'm having

00:43:14.706 --> 00:43:18.126
to learn a third language later in life.

00:43:18.756 --> 00:43:20.976
And it's exactly like,
it's exactly the same.

00:43:21.036 --> 00:43:25.086
So my German is actually quite
good if I'm speaking one-to-one.

00:43:25.836 --> 00:43:27.786
Some, you know, lots of
grammatical mistakes.

00:43:27.786 --> 00:43:29.526
But I can definitely converse.

00:43:29.526 --> 00:43:30.156
You can communicate.

00:43:30.216 --> 00:43:30.217
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:43:30.216 --> 00:43:30.396
Yeah.

00:43:30.426 --> 00:43:34.851
Rupert Isaacson: But as soon as
German true German speakers are

00:43:34.866 --> 00:43:36.696
just like, properly, properly.

00:43:37.191 --> 00:43:38.601
Fast back and forth.

00:43:38.631 --> 00:43:38.811
Yeah.

00:43:40.191 --> 00:43:40.941
You know, I'm lost.

00:43:40.941 --> 00:43:46.281
And I presume that with more and
more exposure, it'll get less.

00:43:46.281 --> 00:43:47.061
And it is indeed, oh, it'll

00:43:47.061 --> 00:43:47.062
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:43:47.061 --> 00:43:47.571
get better.

00:43:47.571 --> 00:43:50.001
That, that's sort of the
way I, it, it does give one

00:43:50.001 --> 00:43:53.301
Rupert Isaacson: such empathy for
kids that are struggling with speech.

00:43:53.751 --> 00:43:55.131
Do you think, here's a question.

00:43:56.421 --> 00:44:01.311
All of those things that you did so
very young in terms of this exposure to

00:44:01.311 --> 00:44:07.461
nature, a lot of these tasks, a lot of
the fact that life was quite physical,

00:44:09.771 --> 00:44:18.411
if you had been growing up now and you
had been looking at screens a lot, 'cause

00:44:19.161 --> 00:44:21.111
that's just the culture and it's easier.

00:44:21.111 --> 00:44:25.252
And as you say, you, you drive past
these apartment buildings where you, you

00:44:25.257 --> 00:44:28.011
don't know that there's kids in there
because you don't see exactly that one.

00:44:28.011 --> 00:44:28.012
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:44:28.011 --> 00:44:28.281
Right.

00:44:28.701 --> 00:44:29.001
Right.

00:44:29.541 --> 00:44:30.416
Rupert Isaacson: If you walk

00:44:30.416 --> 00:44:30.417
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:44:30.416 --> 00:44:31.221
away where I live,

00:44:31.306 --> 00:44:36.081
Rupert Isaacson: let's, let's say that
Temple Grandin is a little girl today with

00:44:36.081 --> 00:44:40.971
the same issues, but now being exposed to
a lot of screen time, what do you think

00:44:40.971 --> 00:44:43.821
would be, what would've happened to you?

00:44:43.851 --> 00:44:44.601
What would happen to you?

00:44:44.886 --> 00:44:44.887
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:44:44.886 --> 00:44:46.821
I don't think I would've
developed as well.

00:44:47.271 --> 00:44:47.511
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:44:48.261 --> 00:44:48.262
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:44:48.261 --> 00:44:48.471
No.

00:44:48.471 --> 00:44:50.421
You know, you gotta get out and do things.

00:44:50.421 --> 00:44:53.791
And then things I'm realizing
how important things like the

00:44:53.791 --> 00:44:55.501
parties, like when we'd had a party

00:44:56.071 --> 00:44:56.251
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

00:44:56.611 --> 00:44:56.612
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:44:56.611 --> 00:44:57.601
My parents had a party.

00:44:57.601 --> 00:44:59.791
We, when I was like eight or
nine years old, all the kids

00:44:59.791 --> 00:45:00.991
in our neighborhood did this.

00:45:01.501 --> 00:45:02.701
It was just a fifties thing.

00:45:03.511 --> 00:45:07.381
But then when I found out Bill Gates
did the same thing, and when the

00:45:07.381 --> 00:45:10.261
guests came, you had to greet them at
the door and say, good evening, Mr.

00:45:10.261 --> 00:45:10.636
And Mrs.

00:45:10.636 --> 00:45:12.151
Wood, you know, take your coat.

00:45:13.051 --> 00:45:15.121
And we weren't allowed
to use their first names.

00:45:15.421 --> 00:45:16.711
Everything was really formal.

00:45:18.256 --> 00:45:19.576
That taught interaction.

00:45:19.576 --> 00:45:23.836
And the other thing is, a lot of autistic
kids today, the mom does all the talking.

00:45:24.196 --> 00:45:26.626
They'll come up to me at the book
table and the mom will say, my

00:45:26.626 --> 00:45:28.306
son wants to get the book signed.

00:45:29.596 --> 00:45:32.236
Well, the kid needs to be
asking to get the book signed.

00:45:32.686 --> 00:45:34.876
The parents do too much for the kid.

00:45:35.416 --> 00:45:39.716
I'm seeing way too many smart
teenagers that have never

00:45:39.826 --> 00:45:41.266
gone shopping by themselves.

00:45:42.316 --> 00:45:45.496
These are things I was doing when I
was eight, 10 years old by myself.

00:45:46.996 --> 00:45:48.676
Just aren't doing enough stuff.

00:45:49.016 --> 00:45:53.396
There's a big problem, even with normal
students when they start to fail a class.

00:45:53.666 --> 00:45:55.856
They don't ask for help soon enough.

00:45:56.936 --> 00:45:58.526
A really serious problem

00:46:00.386 --> 00:46:00.686
Rupert Isaacson: again.

00:46:00.686 --> 00:46:01.586
Why do you think that is?

00:46:02.456 --> 00:46:02.457
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:02.456 --> 00:46:04.706
Well, I think it goes
back to these parties.

00:46:05.126 --> 00:46:08.486
You learn how to talk to people
and selling stuff for charity.

00:46:10.016 --> 00:46:11.726
Rupert Isaacson: Are we living
a much more isolated life?

00:46:12.446 --> 00:46:12.447
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:12.446 --> 00:46:13.736
You've got to talk to the people.

00:46:14.876 --> 00:46:15.206
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:46:15.206 --> 00:46:18.836
But do you think that's not
happening anymore, do you think?

00:46:18.836 --> 00:46:19.226
No, it's not

00:46:19.226 --> 00:46:19.227
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:19.226 --> 00:46:19.556
happening.

00:46:19.831 --> 00:46:20.121
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:46:20.961 --> 00:46:20.962
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:20.961 --> 00:46:21.331
It's not.

00:46:21.391 --> 00:46:21.891
Why do you think

00:46:21.896 --> 00:46:22.496
Rupert Isaacson: it's not happening?

00:46:22.556 --> 00:46:23.516
Why is it not happening?

00:46:24.536 --> 00:46:24.537
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:24.536 --> 00:46:26.306
Well, the mom just does it all for 'em.

00:46:26.516 --> 00:46:26.696
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:46:26.936 --> 00:46:26.937
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:26.936 --> 00:46:27.236
Okay.

00:46:27.236 --> 00:46:29.966
Like if I go to the supermarket
and there's a girl that's

00:46:29.966 --> 00:46:31.076
selling Girl Scout cookies.

00:46:31.076 --> 00:46:34.796
Mom is right there doing
most of the talking.

00:46:36.746 --> 00:46:40.016
The kids, kids should be walking up
to the customers and asking them.

00:46:40.586 --> 00:46:42.266
Rupert Isaacson: Now in this
day and age, he's not doing

00:46:42.266 --> 00:46:42.267
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:42.266 --> 00:46:42.506
that.

00:46:42.806 --> 00:46:43.766
Rupert Isaacson: Things can be dangerous.

00:46:43.766 --> 00:46:45.866
So mom might need to be there.

00:46:46.406 --> 00:46:46.407
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:46:46.406 --> 00:46:47.156
Well, what Mrs.

00:46:47.156 --> 00:46:47.576
Gate Safety.

00:46:47.576 --> 00:46:48.896
So what's the, what's the middle line?

00:46:48.896 --> 00:46:49.331
Mrs.

00:46:49.331 --> 00:46:50.216
Gates did?

00:46:51.086 --> 00:46:56.006
She'd drive bill around the neighborhood
park in front of the house, and

00:46:56.006 --> 00:46:57.206
Bill would've to go up to the door.

00:46:57.356 --> 00:46:58.046
She's right there.

00:46:58.046 --> 00:47:02.606
She can see it, but he had to go
up to the door alone and sell.

00:47:02.606 --> 00:47:04.256
It was mixed nuts is what he was selling.

00:47:04.261 --> 00:47:04.421
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:47:06.706 --> 00:47:08.106
I guess perhaps he had established

00:47:08.106 --> 00:47:08.107
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:47:08.106 --> 00:47:08.266
that.

00:47:08.591 --> 00:47:10.811
Rupert Isaacson: Could we, at
therapeutic riding bonds, could

00:47:10.811 --> 00:47:12.971
we, could we simulate these things?

00:47:12.971 --> 00:47:19.091
Like for example, could we say, okay,
today is cookie selling day at the barn?

00:47:19.091 --> 00:47:19.151
Yeah,

00:47:19.661 --> 00:47:19.662
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:47:19.661 --> 00:47:20.106
sure you could.

00:47:20.291 --> 00:47:24.041
Rupert Isaacson: So that's a controlled
environment where we can give support,

00:47:24.521 --> 00:47:26.471
we can make sure the child is safe.

00:47:27.251 --> 00:47:27.731
Well, that's right.

00:47:27.731 --> 00:47:29.861
But we can also get 'em to
expand their comfort zone a bit.

00:47:31.301 --> 00:47:31.302
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:47:31.301 --> 00:47:32.201
But we get them.

00:47:32.251 --> 00:47:35.041
But you know, my brother is not autistic.

00:47:35.041 --> 00:47:35.941
He hated the parties.

00:47:35.941 --> 00:47:36.511
Hated them.

00:47:37.411 --> 00:47:40.981
But you know what he admitted,
he admitted that it helped him to

00:47:40.981 --> 00:47:43.051
become a senior bank vice president.

00:47:43.381 --> 00:47:48.061
'cause he could talk to older men and
his friends weren't able to do that.

00:47:48.631 --> 00:47:49.441
Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting.

00:47:50.161 --> 00:47:50.162
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:47:50.161 --> 00:47:53.671
And so my non-autistic
brother was helpful.

00:47:53.731 --> 00:47:57.991
This party thing was something everybody
did in the fifties in my neighborhood.

00:47:59.161 --> 00:47:59.341
Yeah.

00:47:59.341 --> 00:48:01.231
So then diplomacy, when it started.

00:48:01.656 --> 00:48:05.551
Put your good clothes on, greet the
guests, learn how to talk to 'em.

00:48:10.141 --> 00:48:12.541
And I thought it was interesting
that the way Bill Gates was brought

00:48:12.541 --> 00:48:18.121
up was very similar and he had to do
the party thing and selling stuff.

00:48:18.841 --> 00:48:20.791
Rupert Isaacson: So, for example,
again, let's say we're running

00:48:20.791 --> 00:48:21.961
a therapeutic riding place.

00:48:21.961 --> 00:48:26.131
Would it be a good idea for us
to have the kids take turns being

00:48:26.131 --> 00:48:27.846
greeters, let's say we have Yes.

00:48:28.051 --> 00:48:28.141
Yes.

00:48:28.141 --> 00:48:29.281
These families showing up?

00:48:29.401 --> 00:48:29.402
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:48:29.401 --> 00:48:29.701
Yes.

00:48:29.941 --> 00:48:30.211
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:48:30.241 --> 00:48:30.242
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:48:30.241 --> 00:48:31.441
Yes, yes.

00:48:32.011 --> 00:48:32.611
That's, yes.

00:48:32.611 --> 00:48:34.021
That would be kind of the same thing.

00:48:34.261 --> 00:48:36.031
You could do that at
therapeutic writing place.

00:48:36.421 --> 00:48:36.901
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:48:37.471 --> 00:48:37.472
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:48:37.471 --> 00:48:39.901
Because a, a lot of these kids,
they're too scared to come

00:48:39.901 --> 00:48:40.981
up and just talk to people.

00:48:41.131 --> 00:48:41.431
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:48:43.021 --> 00:48:43.022
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:48:43.021 --> 00:48:46.621
And there's a scene in the HBO
movie where I go up to the editor

00:48:46.621 --> 00:48:49.081
of the magazine and I get his card.

00:48:50.881 --> 00:48:55.771
Well, selling stuff made it easy
to go up and ask for the card.

00:48:56.431 --> 00:48:56.821
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:48:57.616 --> 00:48:59.446
How would you have dealt
with rejection though?

00:48:59.446 --> 00:48:59.461
That, and

00:48:59.461 --> 00:48:59.462
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:48:59.461 --> 00:49:03.286
working for that magazine was very
important for getting my career started.

00:49:03.436 --> 00:49:03.826
Very important.

00:49:03.826 --> 00:49:04.396
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.

00:49:04.606 --> 00:49:07.066
Let's say he'd given you a
negative reaction, let's say.

00:49:07.066 --> 00:49:08.086
He'd said, no, go away.

00:49:08.086 --> 00:49:08.716
You are weird.

00:49:09.106 --> 00:49:10.096
I don't wanna talk to you.

00:49:10.366 --> 00:49:14.806
Would that have crushed you or
would you have had the resilience to

00:49:15.526 --> 00:49:15.527
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:49:15.526 --> 00:49:18.226
I think it would have resilience because
sometimes he had some customer in the

00:49:18.226 --> 00:49:19.726
neighborhood that told you to go away.

00:49:19.996 --> 00:49:20.326
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:49:21.286 --> 00:49:21.287
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:49:21.286 --> 00:49:21.556
Yeah.

00:49:21.556 --> 00:49:27.016
You see, they didn't wanna buy the candy
and we knew which houses were grouchy

00:49:29.266 --> 00:49:30.706
and you still had to go up to 'em.

00:49:31.336 --> 00:49:33.166
Rupert Isaacson: Because when
we're dealing with people that have

00:49:33.196 --> 00:49:36.556
overdeveloped, amygdalas, we're dealing
with people with a lot of anxiety

00:49:36.706 --> 00:49:36.707
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:49:36.706 --> 00:49:37.846
and they get scared easily.

00:49:37.846 --> 00:49:39.286
Rupert Isaacson: Rejection
is a thing, right?

00:49:39.286 --> 00:49:40.066
It's a big thing.

00:49:40.066 --> 00:49:40.126
Yeah.

00:49:40.786 --> 00:49:42.226
So how do we dance around that?

00:49:43.786 --> 00:49:43.787
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:49:43.786 --> 00:49:45.646
Well, the other customers
didn't reject it.

00:49:46.276 --> 00:49:46.606
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:49:46.876 --> 00:49:46.877
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:49:46.876 --> 00:49:50.746
I remember a time writing an article
one time and had a, and somebody wrote

00:49:50.746 --> 00:49:55.276
a really nasty letter to the editor
and I was really upset about that.

00:49:55.381 --> 00:50:01.201
And I talked to several my people
about it, and they said that you need

00:50:01.201 --> 00:50:03.481
to, you know, it's just one letter.

00:50:03.721 --> 00:50:08.521
Other people liked the article,
but I, I was very upset about them.

00:50:10.921 --> 00:50:14.131
Rupert Isaacson: What if we then,
let's say we set this program up at a

00:50:14.131 --> 00:50:18.031
therapeutic riding barn where their kids
are greeting and the kids are selling.

00:50:18.691 --> 00:50:18.751
Yeah.

00:50:18.751 --> 00:50:25.471
Could we also then set up some situations
in which they are rejected or refused in

00:50:25.471 --> 00:50:28.891
a controlled situation where like, Mr.

00:50:28.891 --> 00:50:29.191
And Mrs.

00:50:29.191 --> 00:50:32.431
Grouch come in and we even make
like joke out of it or something.

00:50:32.581 --> 00:50:32.582
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:50:32.581 --> 00:50:33.811
People that kind of play Mr.

00:50:33.811 --> 00:50:34.171
And Mrs.

00:50:34.171 --> 00:50:34.741
Grouch.

00:50:34.801 --> 00:50:35.221
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:50:35.356 --> 00:50:35.357
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:50:35.356 --> 00:50:36.296
And, and they role play.

00:50:36.296 --> 00:50:38.761
They cannot not have 'em do anything
really mean or anything, but just

00:50:38.761 --> 00:50:40.051
say, no, I don't wanna buy that today.

00:50:40.141 --> 00:50:40.411
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:50:40.411 --> 00:50:41.461
They just, something like that.

00:50:41.791 --> 00:50:43.411
And to gradually build,
I don't want cookies.

00:50:43.411 --> 00:50:43.651
I got

00:50:43.651 --> 00:50:43.652
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:50:43.651 --> 00:50:47.371
enough cookies, you know
it, and then just walk off.

00:50:49.411 --> 00:50:49.981
Rupert Isaacson: I could see that.

00:50:49.981 --> 00:50:50.131
I'd

00:50:50.131 --> 00:50:50.132
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:50:50.131 --> 00:50:52.921
like to have a bunch of success
first before that happens.

00:50:53.251 --> 00:50:53.701
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

00:50:53.701 --> 00:50:59.171
So yeah, build success, but then
gradually have controlled other types of

00:50:59.471 --> 00:50:59.472
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:50:59.471 --> 00:51:01.031
well, and then other things.

00:51:01.361 --> 00:51:05.621
The other thing I think is important
is, is I have a lot of grandparents

00:51:05.621 --> 00:51:11.091
come up to me and they discover their
autistic you know, later in life, they

00:51:11.091 --> 00:51:13.881
all have decent careers, good jobs.

00:51:14.241 --> 00:51:16.341
That's because at age 11,
they had paper routes.

00:51:16.611 --> 00:51:19.491
Now I know those no longer exist,
but we gotta do paper route

00:51:19.491 --> 00:51:24.711
substitutes walking the neighbor's
dog, maybe a church volunteer job.

00:51:24.951 --> 00:51:29.541
It's very important that the boss
is somebody outside the family.

00:51:30.441 --> 00:51:31.101
It's Mr.

00:51:31.191 --> 00:51:32.241
Jones's dog,

00:51:34.611 --> 00:51:35.601
not your own dog.

00:51:36.021 --> 00:51:39.891
And you have to do it every morning at
six o'clock in the morning and be on time

00:51:39.891 --> 00:51:41.391
and take it out for a half an hour walk.

00:51:45.066 --> 00:51:49.416
Rupert Isaacson: Again, this sounds
like something we could set up at.

00:51:49.416 --> 00:51:49.746
That's right.

00:51:50.016 --> 00:51:51.936
Good therapeutic things.

00:51:51.936 --> 00:51:56.346
Provided we have the manpower, which might
go back to getting retirees and to help.

00:51:56.346 --> 00:51:56.347
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:51:56.346 --> 00:51:59.886
Well, I think after, when I took
a look at the, two weeks ago, I

00:51:59.886 --> 00:52:01.386
took a look at our national budget.

00:52:01.386 --> 00:52:05.016
I looked it up in the business
magazines and I just had sort

00:52:05.016 --> 00:52:07.686
of, we gotta tap into retirees.

00:52:07.716 --> 00:52:09.126
They're half our national budget.

00:52:09.516 --> 00:52:09.876
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:52:11.286 --> 00:52:11.287
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:52:11.286 --> 00:52:16.446
We've got to tap into them and a
lot of 'em would like to have the

00:52:16.446 --> 00:52:18.786
opportunity to work with the kids so
they could really make a difference.

00:52:20.706 --> 00:52:23.856
I'm 77 years old, I'm still working.

00:52:24.001 --> 00:52:24.421
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:52:25.671 --> 00:52:25.672
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:52:25.671 --> 00:52:30.216
Some of these retirees are 55 or 60, you
know, 20 years, 15 years younger than me.

00:52:30.501 --> 00:52:30.921
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:52:33.216 --> 00:52:34.956
I wonder what's the best
way to go find them?

00:52:34.956 --> 00:52:37.086
I mean, do you just, would
one literally just sort of go

00:52:37.086 --> 00:52:38.946
to retirement communities or,

00:52:39.366 --> 00:52:39.367
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:52:39.366 --> 00:52:42.276
oh, you just have to go to, we
have a senior center over here.

00:52:42.576 --> 00:52:42.756
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:52:43.476 --> 00:52:43.477
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:52:43.476 --> 00:52:43.926
Right.

00:52:43.926 --> 00:52:47.136
A few, you know, less than a
quarter of a mile from where I live.

00:52:49.476 --> 00:52:51.696
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just writing
this down because what I'm doing,

00:52:51.756 --> 00:52:51.757
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:52:51.756 --> 00:52:53.796
you know, just tapping into the community.

00:52:53.886 --> 00:52:54.066
Yeah.

00:52:54.096 --> 00:52:56.376
And you would do it one person at a time.

00:52:56.376 --> 00:52:57.246
Word of mouth.

00:52:58.086 --> 00:52:58.566
And,

00:53:02.166 --> 00:53:05.436
because the other thing that's a
problem in, on the entire developed

00:53:05.436 --> 00:53:07.656
world is funding's drying up.

00:53:08.111 --> 00:53:08.401
Okay.

00:53:08.466 --> 00:53:09.096
Okay.

00:53:09.096 --> 00:53:15.246
I know about research funding in my field
in the seventies, money fold, like water.

00:53:16.446 --> 00:53:18.216
I've been in the industry 50 years now.

00:53:18.216 --> 00:53:21.126
Then in the nineties they
started shutting labs down.

00:53:23.286 --> 00:53:25.116
Now it's a trend line like this.

00:53:25.896 --> 00:53:28.266
As retirees take more
and more of the money.

00:53:29.346 --> 00:53:30.966
Other things went down like this,

00:53:34.056 --> 00:53:36.546
you know, things like funding
for the space program.

00:53:36.546 --> 00:53:42.156
I, I gave a talk at the jet Propulsion
Lab 10 years ago and I got their annual

00:53:42.156 --> 00:53:47.886
report and I was not very happy what I
saw happening to the budget, this is 10

00:53:47.886 --> 00:53:51.846
years ago, it's going down and this is
happening in all the developed countries

00:53:52.626 --> 00:53:54.051
Rupert Isaacson: because
the population is aging to

00:53:54.051 --> 00:53:54.052
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:53:54.051 --> 00:53:56.736
happen and we need to tap into the
resources we've got in the communities

00:53:56.916 --> 00:53:58.296
and retirees is one of them.

00:53:58.596 --> 00:53:59.346
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:53:59.346 --> 00:53:59.436
Mm-hmm.

00:54:02.226 --> 00:54:02.556
Yeah.

00:54:02.556 --> 00:54:08.226
And it seems to me too, I mean,
grow, I, I, growing up as a colonial

00:54:08.376 --> 00:54:13.116
children child of colonial Africans
in, in the uk, intergenerational

00:54:13.116 --> 00:54:16.356
life was very much just the norm.

00:54:17.146 --> 00:54:21.406
And I learned so much from
older people when I was a kid.

00:54:22.156 --> 00:54:25.876
A bunch of skills because also older
people were often very physically

00:54:25.936 --> 00:54:27.316
active and physically able.

00:54:27.586 --> 00:54:30.946
So they would be the ones
showing you how to use a tool or

00:54:31.156 --> 00:54:31.157
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:54:31.156 --> 00:54:31.846
Oh, that's right.

00:54:31.846 --> 00:54:31.906
Yeah.

00:54:32.281 --> 00:54:36.096
They, they retired car mechanics
carpenters, you know, like right

00:54:36.096 --> 00:54:37.326
now I've got back problems.

00:54:37.326 --> 00:54:43.236
I can't lift much anymore, but there's
a lot of things you still can do.

00:54:45.516 --> 00:54:47.766
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
and I would imagine too

00:54:48.516 --> 00:54:48.517
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:54:48.516 --> 00:54:50.226
that you use that to lift stuff.

00:54:51.366 --> 00:54:56.856
Rupert Isaacson: There has to be an
impact on the brain too if, if we don't

00:54:56.856 --> 00:54:59.976
get this intergenerational contact right.

00:54:59.976 --> 00:55:00.606
Because something

00:55:00.606 --> 00:55:00.607
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:55:00.606 --> 00:55:04.686
that we need to be tapping into
because of funding, like when

00:55:04.686 --> 00:55:06.816
you look at funding for science.

00:55:06.816 --> 00:55:07.056
Okay.

00:55:07.056 --> 00:55:10.836
I had a chance to visit the vehicle
assembly building where they put

00:55:10.836 --> 00:55:12.546
together the original moon rocket.

00:55:12.546 --> 00:55:14.257
I got a chance to go inside it.

00:55:15.351 --> 00:55:21.351
And I remember standing outside
of it and going, oh, this is the

00:55:21.351 --> 00:55:22.551
greatest thing my generation did.

00:55:22.551 --> 00:55:27.171
Then when I went inside it, I'm
going, am I hallucinating right now?

00:55:27.171 --> 00:55:30.591
Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing
in there that I'm seeing scaffolding

00:55:30.591 --> 00:55:32.331
inside here for multiple rockets?

00:55:32.451 --> 00:55:34.341
Not one rocket, multiple rockets.

00:55:35.361 --> 00:55:38.121
I was seeing scaffolding in
there for multiple rockets.

00:55:38.121 --> 00:55:42.381
I was not hallucinating, and I
realized, I looked at that they had

00:55:42.381 --> 00:55:48.321
an open bank vault for that project
because you look at SpaceX's building,

00:55:48.321 --> 00:55:50.121
it's a modified steel building.

00:55:50.631 --> 00:55:51.021
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:55:52.491 --> 00:55:52.492
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:55:52.491 --> 00:55:56.481
You know, he, he, one thing that
SpaceX figured out how to do is, is

00:55:56.481 --> 00:55:59.061
how to make that rocket reusable.

00:55:59.151 --> 00:56:00.411
Make it land on its tail.

00:56:01.341 --> 00:56:01.671
Rupert Isaacson: That saves

00:56:01.671 --> 00:56:01.672
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:56:01.671 --> 00:56:03.411
half your cost right there,
because you're not throwing that

00:56:03.411 --> 00:56:04.446
rocket booster in the ocean.

00:56:04.666 --> 00:56:05.086
Mm-hmm.

00:56:05.171 --> 00:56:08.961
The other thing you learn is
commercial available equipment works.

00:56:10.401 --> 00:56:13.011
You don't have to have, you know,
regular electronics will work.

00:56:15.776 --> 00:56:16.076
You know.

00:56:16.131 --> 00:56:16.311
I see.

00:56:16.311 --> 00:56:20.661
And that's, but they, when
I went in that building, I'm

00:56:20.661 --> 00:56:22.791
going, they had big visions also.

00:56:22.791 --> 00:56:25.851
When you went up on the roof of it,
there were big eye beams sticking

00:56:25.851 --> 00:56:27.081
outta the corners of the building.

00:56:28.311 --> 00:56:31.281
And that's so you could build a
higher one for even the bigger rocket

00:56:33.381 --> 00:56:33.531
course.

00:56:33.651 --> 00:56:34.401
That never happened.

00:56:34.701 --> 00:56:36.801
Most people don't know
that about the I beams.

00:56:38.241 --> 00:56:38.601
No.

00:56:38.691 --> 00:56:41.301
I went up on that flat roof and
I put my hands right on 'em.

00:56:43.131 --> 00:56:46.161
Big, I beam this sticking
outta the corners of the roof.

00:56:46.581 --> 00:56:47.811
Rupert Isaacson: I think you
put your finger on something

00:56:47.811 --> 00:56:49.101
there when you said electronics.

00:56:49.211 --> 00:56:52.661
Again, here am I running a
therapeutic riding thing?

00:56:52.841 --> 00:56:57.791
Should I have some retirees coming
in, running a sort of electronics shop

00:56:58.271 --> 00:56:58.272
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:56:58.271 --> 00:56:59.876
where we're maybe fixing videos and stuff?

00:56:59.876 --> 00:56:59.916
Yes.

00:56:59.916 --> 00:57:00.276
That would be great.

00:57:00.456 --> 00:57:04.081
And, and the other thing is
fixing computers for people.

00:57:04.351 --> 00:57:04.801
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:57:06.511 --> 00:57:06.512
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:57:06.511 --> 00:57:11.341
And, you know, you, you know, we
throw away so much electronics.

00:57:12.481 --> 00:57:14.251
It's just disgusting.

00:57:14.251 --> 00:57:14.311
Hmm.

00:57:16.141 --> 00:57:20.711
Like, for example, monitor like I
have now like when a monitor starts

00:57:20.711 --> 00:57:25.541
to go out and it starts to flicker,
it means the power supply's failing.

00:57:27.251 --> 00:57:33.131
And I had a monitor that did that, and
really nice monitor screen still worked.

00:57:33.731 --> 00:57:34.781
I looked it up on YouTube.

00:57:34.781 --> 00:57:36.971
I found out exactly what
was wrong with that monitor.

00:57:37.631 --> 00:57:38.921
It needed new power supply.

00:57:40.091 --> 00:57:42.401
Now that's something I
could have done myself.

00:57:42.431 --> 00:57:43.931
I kept it for a whole year.

00:57:44.201 --> 00:57:47.201
Then finally, I had my friend come
in and help clean my house and

00:57:47.681 --> 00:57:49.001
well, it ended up in the dumpster.

00:57:49.001 --> 00:57:54.281
I hate to say, but I, I can tell you
right now, let's say that monitor

00:57:54.731 --> 00:57:56.891
had existed outta my aunt's ranch.

00:57:57.701 --> 00:58:00.311
They were, they were really low on money.

00:58:00.611 --> 00:58:00.701
Mm-hmm.

00:58:00.701 --> 00:58:01.151
It would've

00:58:01.421 --> 00:58:01.871
Rupert Isaacson: fixed.

00:58:03.461 --> 00:58:03.462
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:58:03.461 --> 00:58:05.981
If I couldn't get the exact
power supply, I have to just

00:58:05.981 --> 00:58:07.751
make sure the output is the same.

00:58:08.111 --> 00:58:10.901
I would've built an external power
supply for it, put it in a plastic

00:58:10.901 --> 00:58:12.161
box so I wouldn't get shocked.

00:58:12.521 --> 00:58:13.571
I know how to solder.

00:58:14.411 --> 00:58:15.851
We would've fixed that monitor.

00:58:18.611 --> 00:58:18.731
Can

00:58:19.271 --> 00:58:19.511
Rupert Isaacson: you go ahead?

00:58:19.871 --> 00:58:19.872
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:58:19.871 --> 00:58:23.891
I felt, you know, this was probably
about three years ago, and that

00:58:23.921 --> 00:58:25.121
monitor went in the garbage.

00:58:25.121 --> 00:58:28.151
I, I felt kind of guilty about that.

00:58:28.631 --> 00:58:32.561
But I'm just, you know, just so
busy travel and things like that.

00:58:33.581 --> 00:58:37.811
But all that was wrong with it was they
put a cheap power supply in it, and you

00:58:37.811 --> 00:58:39.191
have to just put in a new power supply.

00:58:39.191 --> 00:58:39.791
It would've worked.

00:58:40.631 --> 00:58:42.551
No, I, I went online
and went on the YouTube.

00:58:42.551 --> 00:58:44.171
I found out exactly
what was wrong with it,

00:58:46.181 --> 00:58:47.951
but it would've required
taking a thing apart.

00:58:47.951 --> 00:58:52.001
It would've required some soldering,
the stuff I actually know how to do.

00:58:52.601 --> 00:58:56.291
Now, if I'd been in a situation where
I wouldn't have a monitor otherwise,

00:58:57.191 --> 00:58:58.236
yeah, it would've been fixed.

00:59:01.526 --> 00:59:07.196
Rupert Isaacson: The problem solving sort
of sequences that you're describing from

00:59:07.376 --> 00:59:13.796
learning these early turn, taking games
through very, very basic tasks, a daisy

00:59:13.796 --> 00:59:23.246
chain to learning how to fix some basic
things or at least participate in it to

00:59:26.486 --> 00:59:30.416
go into sort of a higher
cognitive process.

00:59:31.346 --> 00:59:35.306
This sounds a lot to me, like BDNF,
brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

00:59:35.666 --> 00:59:39.476
Can you, can you talk to
us a little bit about that?

00:59:39.476 --> 00:59:48.116
The, the neurotrophins within the
brain that seem to rely upon a certain

00:59:48.116 --> 00:59:49.976
amount of physical movement to.

00:59:51.386 --> 00:59:53.906
Create these problem solving abilities.

00:59:54.006 --> 00:59:54.007
Dr. Temple Grandin:

00:59:54.006 --> 00:59:55.476
Well, you have to do it.

00:59:56.136 --> 01:00:02.286
You know, and I, you know, my skills
in the paper library transferred right

01:00:02.286 --> 01:00:05.706
over to looking things up online.

01:00:07.236 --> 01:00:07.776
I was very good.

01:00:07.776 --> 01:00:12.756
I'd go to the card catalog and I'd find
a bunch of books in, in my subject, and

01:00:12.756 --> 01:00:17.736
then I very carefully go through maybe
a six foot section, a shelf looking

01:00:17.736 --> 01:00:19.176
at table of contents of the books.

01:00:19.176 --> 01:00:20.016
And I'd find them.

01:00:20.976 --> 01:00:22.116
People would say, well,
how do you do that?

01:00:22.566 --> 01:00:26.886
Well, I can go on online and start
putting keywords in and I can do that.

01:00:26.886 --> 01:00:28.176
And you gotta use different keywords.

01:00:28.536 --> 01:00:32.316
I tell students, cattle's
got different keywords, cows,

01:00:32.316 --> 01:00:35.616
bulls, steers, heifers, cattle,

01:00:37.086 --> 01:00:37.566
Rupert Isaacson: pine,

01:00:37.616 --> 01:00:37.617
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:00:37.616 --> 01:00:40.016
You gotta do a separate search
with each one of those keywords.

01:00:43.046 --> 01:00:44.066
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your brain.

01:00:45.446 --> 01:00:47.366
You've had people study your brain.

01:00:48.581 --> 01:00:50.321
What differences did they find Huge.

01:00:51.341 --> 01:00:52.901
And what insights did you get from that?

01:00:53.291 --> 01:00:53.292
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:00:53.291 --> 01:00:55.091
Huge visual thinking circuits.

01:00:56.051 --> 01:00:56.531
Huge.

01:00:56.561 --> 01:01:01.121
Huge visual thinking circuits,
but smaller circuits for speak.

01:01:01.121 --> 01:01:01.751
What I see

01:01:03.971 --> 01:01:05.501
much smaller circuit for that.

01:01:05.921 --> 01:01:09.701
And that would, would explain
how speech came in slowly.

01:01:09.761 --> 01:01:11.651
I was not one of these echoic kids.

01:01:12.161 --> 01:01:15.281
I was yaking out an entire movie
script, but doesn't know what it means.

01:01:15.401 --> 01:01:15.611
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:01:16.601 --> 01:01:16.602
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:01:16.601 --> 01:01:18.071
I was definitely not one of those.

01:01:18.941 --> 01:01:23.261
Rupert Isaacson: And these
visual parts of the brain, it's

01:01:23.261 --> 01:01:24.281
these, it's where are they?

01:01:25.391 --> 01:01:25.392
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:01:25.391 --> 01:01:29.381
Right here in the back, old, back
third of the brains involved in vision.

01:01:29.861 --> 01:01:30.011
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:01:30.251 --> 01:01:30.252
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:01:30.251 --> 01:01:31.721
Very big part of the brain.

01:01:32.291 --> 01:01:36.941
And in looking at these PET scans that
were showing that the visual cortex was

01:01:37.001 --> 01:01:40.061
turned on, cerebellum was about black.

01:01:40.061 --> 01:01:42.191
I mean, nothing was
going on in cerebellum.

01:01:42.611 --> 01:01:47.531
Maybe this explains why activities that
stimulate the cerebellum, like horseback

01:01:47.531 --> 01:01:49.211
riding, for example, are so beneficial.

01:01:49.481 --> 01:01:50.291
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm

01:01:50.381 --> 01:01:50.382
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:01:50.381 --> 01:01:54.221
And the OTs have learned from
years ago, do lots of swinging,

01:01:54.401 --> 01:01:59.171
lots of balancing activities that
these things have a good effect,

01:02:01.211 --> 01:02:02.921
you know, and that's been known for years.

01:02:03.221 --> 01:02:05.621
Rupert Isaacson: And is your
cerebellum still underactive?

01:02:05.621 --> 01:02:07.546
Like do you have to do things for MyUM?

01:02:07.766 --> 01:02:07.767
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:02:07.766 --> 01:02:10.646
My cerebellum is 20% smaller than normal.

01:02:11.366 --> 01:02:11.426
Okay.

01:02:12.126 --> 01:02:13.506
That's definitely known.

01:02:14.106 --> 01:02:19.356
And, and I had PET scans done, but I don't
think they sliced, they were this way.

01:02:19.356 --> 01:02:20.826
I don't think they sliced down far enough.

01:02:20.826 --> 01:02:22.626
I gotta go dig those PET scans out.

01:02:22.631 --> 01:02:23.041
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:02:23.221 --> 01:02:23.616
But I

01:02:23.676 --> 01:02:23.677
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:02:23.676 --> 01:02:27.336
don't think they went
down far enough to slide.

01:02:27.516 --> 01:02:29.106
They didn't do the sagittal section.

01:02:29.106 --> 01:02:30.126
They didn't do that.

01:02:30.936 --> 01:02:32.856
And the ones that showed it
were the sagittal, you know,

01:02:32.856 --> 01:02:34.386
were like, cut this way.

01:02:35.586 --> 01:02:37.471
Rupert Isaacson: So you're talking
about rocking as had or not?

01:02:37.941 --> 01:02:37.942
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:02:37.941 --> 01:02:40.596
Well, the ones I had, I think
only went down about this far and

01:02:40.596 --> 01:02:41.886
that wouldn't hit the cerebellum.

01:02:42.651 --> 01:02:43.461
So I wouldn't know.

01:02:44.271 --> 01:02:47.301
Rupert Isaacson: Do you do
things now consciously to work

01:02:47.301 --> 01:02:50.301
your cell cerebellum out to do

01:02:51.951 --> 01:02:51.952
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:02:51.951 --> 01:02:53.961
Well, I've learned, I,

01:02:57.291 --> 01:03:00.261
well, one thing I've learned to
help back pain is I'm making myself

01:03:00.261 --> 01:03:03.231
look at the ceiling of the airport
when I walk through the airport.

01:03:03.471 --> 01:03:06.501
And I was showing a lady yesterday
in the supermarket and she was

01:03:06.501 --> 01:03:07.731
complaining about her back hurting.

01:03:07.731 --> 01:03:10.191
I said, when you walk through the
supermarket, make sure you can

01:03:10.191 --> 01:03:14.571
see the steel beams in the ceiling
that forces you to stand up.

01:03:16.701 --> 01:03:18.081
And you still have to see the floor.

01:03:18.951 --> 01:03:23.571
But when I can see the steel beams
and the supermarket's brand new

01:03:23.571 --> 01:03:27.951
and it, but it's in Abu, like a
factory building basically, that's

01:03:27.951 --> 01:03:29.751
all open steel beams on the ceiling.

01:03:31.131 --> 01:03:35.481
If I, if I way I used to walk, I, I
couldn't see the, the, the steel beams.

01:03:37.251 --> 01:03:38.211
Rupert Isaacson: How does
that help you, Sarah?

01:03:38.216 --> 01:03:38.296
Bottom

01:03:38.796 --> 01:03:38.797
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:03:38.796 --> 01:03:40.071
now, and I'm finding, I'm.

01:03:42.906 --> 01:03:43.266
One.

01:03:43.651 --> 01:03:47.136
I am, I'm not doing all
that much right now,

01:03:48.641 --> 01:03:50.316
Rupert Isaacson: but when
you're looking, but things like

01:03:50.316 --> 01:03:50.317
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:03:50.316 --> 01:03:53.796
riding, you see when you hear where
the kid go, the mom will say, he

01:03:53.796 --> 01:03:55.686
did his first words on a horse.

01:03:55.806 --> 01:03:55.926
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:03:57.246 --> 01:03:57.247
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:03:57.246 --> 01:03:58.416
Well that's cerebellum.

01:03:58.416 --> 01:04:00.096
You're stimulating of
vest stimulus system.

01:04:00.096 --> 01:04:01.161
You're stimulating the rebell.

01:04:01.166 --> 01:04:01.386
Okay.

01:04:02.586 --> 01:04:06.396
OTs for years have known that was
good and then you had the old Miller

01:04:06.396 --> 01:04:09.816
Method from years ago and they'd
have kind of contraptions that the

01:04:09.816 --> 01:04:11.706
kids would climb on and balance.

01:04:11.916 --> 01:04:16.236
But even something as simple as nail a
two by four board to the floor and just

01:04:16.236 --> 01:04:21.156
have 'em walk the type rope on a board
nailed on the floor simple balancing

01:04:21.156 --> 01:04:24.276
things like that can sometimes be helpful.

01:04:24.396 --> 01:04:27.186
Rupert Isaacson: So as much balancing
activity as you can possibly do.

01:04:27.336 --> 01:04:27.337
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:04:27.336 --> 01:04:27.486
Yeah.

01:04:27.486 --> 01:04:29.346
Lots of balancing activity, you see.

01:04:29.346 --> 01:04:33.846
And that stimulates the cerebellum
and that seems to be good.

01:04:34.176 --> 01:04:36.366
And my cerebellum is smaller than normal.

01:04:36.756 --> 01:04:37.027
Rupert Isaacson: Now what?

01:04:37.971 --> 01:04:40.281
When you are walking through that
supermarket and you're looking at the

01:04:40.281 --> 01:04:42.741
beams, is that helping your cerebellum?

01:04:43.401 --> 01:04:45.141
Because that is that
changing the balance back?

01:04:45.141 --> 01:04:45.142
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:04:45.141 --> 01:04:47.001
I can tell you right now,
it's helping my back.

01:04:47.001 --> 01:04:47.481
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:04:47.781 --> 01:04:47.782
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:04:47.781 --> 01:04:51.456
And I have to make myself do it
because I tend to lean forward.

01:04:51.816 --> 01:04:56.406
And then I realized that I'm, well,
it's just like walking through

01:04:56.406 --> 01:04:57.906
the jet bridge to go on a plane.

01:04:58.206 --> 01:04:58.296
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:04:58.896 --> 01:04:58.897
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:04:58.896 --> 01:05:04.066
And now I, now I'm, now I'm now when I
think about Jet Bridge, I'm seeing how

01:05:04.066 --> 01:05:05.626
the lights are configured in the ceiling.

01:05:06.046 --> 01:05:06.166
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:05:06.856 --> 01:05:06.857
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:06.856 --> 01:05:08.626
Until I started doing it, I realized
I'd never even looked at the

01:05:08.626 --> 01:05:09.856
ceiling of a jet bridge before.

01:05:10.546 --> 01:05:10.786
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:05:11.806 --> 01:05:11.807
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:11.806 --> 01:05:13.036
And the same thing with
ceiling at the airport.

01:05:13.036 --> 01:05:15.556
I discover a Newark airport's
got a pigeon in it can fly the

01:05:15.556 --> 01:05:17.566
entire concourse full speed.

01:05:18.991 --> 01:05:19.211
Rupert Isaacson: Do,

01:05:19.276 --> 01:05:19.277
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:19.276 --> 01:05:20.651
do you I wouldn't noticed that before.

01:05:21.136 --> 01:05:24.376
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that when
you are looking up now as a 77-year-old

01:05:24.376 --> 01:05:28.006
woman and changing that perspective,
changing, you're changing your balance.

01:05:28.006 --> 01:05:28.156
Right.

01:05:28.156 --> 01:05:29.206
You must still be, well stand up.

01:05:29.206 --> 01:05:29.207
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:29.206 --> 01:05:31.306
One of the things it does and I've
got, I've got the ladies at the,

01:05:31.396 --> 01:05:34.486
at the ticket counter doing it too,
because then you gotta find every

01:05:34.486 --> 01:05:36.616
stain ceiling tile in that airport.

01:05:39.586 --> 01:05:40.696
It's making a difference.

01:05:40.696 --> 01:05:44.296
And they said that when I walk up
to the ticket counter that they can

01:05:44.296 --> 01:05:45.946
see that I'm standing up better.

01:05:46.306 --> 01:05:46.516
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:05:48.076 --> 01:05:48.077
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:48.076 --> 01:05:49.396
And it has helped my back.

01:05:49.756 --> 01:05:52.396
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm surely
that must also stimulate your

01:05:52.396 --> 01:05:56.596
vestibular system a bit because
you're changing your normal balance.

01:05:56.596 --> 01:05:56.597
Right?

01:05:56.602 --> 01:05:58.486
You balance well, the other
thing I'll do balance.

01:05:58.576 --> 01:05:58.906
I got

01:05:58.906 --> 01:05:58.907
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:05:58.906 --> 01:06:00.736
a big long hotel hallway.

01:06:01.096 --> 01:06:01.126
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:06:01.186 --> 01:06:01.187
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:06:01.186 --> 01:06:03.436
Or a big, long, empty airport corridor.

01:06:03.441 --> 01:06:05.236
I go now don't walk like an old lady.

01:06:06.106 --> 01:06:08.596
And I will go fast down the terminal.

01:06:08.746 --> 01:06:10.426
Now if it's crowded,
obviously I don't do that.

01:06:10.696 --> 01:06:12.496
And I'll do that in hotel corridor too.

01:06:12.736 --> 01:06:14.056
Big long hotel corridor.

01:06:14.696 --> 01:06:18.656
I obviously don't do it on uneven
ground, but wears the, you know, the

01:06:18.656 --> 01:06:21.146
smooth carpet, big long hotel corridor.

01:06:21.356 --> 01:06:23.306
I'll go, don't walk like an old lady.

01:06:23.336 --> 01:06:25.046
I'll make myself walk fast down it.

01:06:27.086 --> 01:06:27.326
Rupert Isaacson: I'm

01:06:27.326 --> 01:06:27.327
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:06:27.326 --> 01:06:28.286
doing that now.

01:06:29.606 --> 01:06:32.276
Rupert Isaacson: Have you
had your amygdala looked at?

01:06:32.786 --> 01:06:32.787
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:06:32.786 --> 01:06:33.656
Yes, I have.

01:06:33.746 --> 01:06:35.876
And the right amygdala
is bigger than normal.

01:06:36.206 --> 01:06:36.626
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:06:36.956 --> 01:06:38.156
What do you attribute that to?

01:06:39.116 --> 01:06:39.117
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:06:39.116 --> 01:06:40.646
Well, that's just the way it was.

01:06:40.886 --> 01:06:43.376
And I had horrible problems with anxiety.

01:06:43.706 --> 01:06:48.626
And it started puberty when the hormones
hit horrible, horrible anxiety that's now

01:06:48.626 --> 01:06:50.726
controlled with antidepressant medication.

01:06:51.026 --> 01:06:55.406
Another thing that helps controlling
it is a burst of hard exercise.

01:06:55.736 --> 01:06:56.066
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:06:57.176 --> 01:06:57.177
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:06:57.176 --> 01:07:00.796
And where I talk about my anxiety
issues, I discuss that in my

01:07:00.856 --> 01:07:02.596
old book Thinking and Pictures.

01:07:03.046 --> 01:07:03.076
Mm.

01:07:03.076 --> 01:07:06.706
Which I just did a new
forward for this and,

01:07:08.956 --> 01:07:10.126
and a burst of hard exercise.

01:07:10.126 --> 01:07:12.496
I do 120 old lady pushups every night.

01:07:12.706 --> 01:07:16.456
Only the front half comes up and
then I'll do a hundred strokes

01:07:16.456 --> 01:07:17.836
laying on the floor swimming.

01:07:18.766 --> 01:07:22.696
And when I first started doing that,
I couldn't get my legs off the ground.

01:07:23.356 --> 01:07:24.196
I can now.

01:07:24.361 --> 01:07:24.781
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:07:26.691 --> 01:07:26.692
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:07:26.691 --> 01:07:31.066
And I find that burst of hard
exercise is also very helpful.

01:07:32.596 --> 01:07:35.716
Rupert Isaacson: When you're, let's
talk about anti-anxiety medications.

01:07:36.326 --> 01:07:45.026
As we now know, we are dealing with a,
a population that is largely medicated

01:07:45.086 --> 01:07:50.246
rather than a population that is in which
the minorities in the exceptions of, well,

01:07:50.246 --> 01:07:50.247
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:07:50.246 --> 01:07:54.546
one thing is you wanna use a low
dose or I take one antidepressant,

01:07:55.206 --> 01:07:58.176
low dose, starter dose, or less.

01:07:58.176 --> 01:07:58.386
Okay.

01:07:58.386 --> 01:08:01.806
Let's say you do, I'm taking one
of the old tricyclics 'cause I

01:08:01.806 --> 01:08:03.546
started before Prozac existed.

01:08:04.446 --> 01:08:07.986
And if you're doing Prozac,
it's starter dose or less.

01:08:08.796 --> 01:08:14.706
The big mistake that gets made is it
follow the label, it's too high, and

01:08:14.706 --> 01:08:16.926
then you'll get agitation and insomnia.

01:08:17.616 --> 01:08:19.596
It's starter dose or less.

01:08:20.736 --> 01:08:24.126
And if you start to feel like you
drank 50 cups of coffee, you cut the

01:08:24.126 --> 01:08:25.926
dose, don't raise it, cut the dose.

01:08:26.991 --> 01:08:28.461
That's all explained in here.

01:08:28.881 --> 01:08:30.951
Even though it's old, it's still accurate.

01:08:32.841 --> 01:08:34.251
Rupert Isaacson: So when you cut the dose

01:08:34.791 --> 01:08:34.792
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:08:34.791 --> 01:08:35.451
it just works.

01:08:35.466 --> 01:08:37.401
I, I don't, I don't, you
go down to like a quarter

01:08:37.401 --> 01:08:38.301
Rupert Isaacson: pill or something.

01:08:38.631 --> 01:08:40.671
Like what, how would you,
how would you cut that dose?

01:08:42.561 --> 01:08:42.562
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:08:42.561 --> 01:08:44.991
You'd have, you know, one way you
get liquid version or you have

01:08:44.991 --> 01:08:48.591
to cut the pills, but usually
the starter dose will work.

01:08:49.041 --> 01:08:49.311
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:49.311 --> 01:08:49.312
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:08:49.311 --> 01:08:52.731
The starter dose size, because
I've had parents go, oh, he

01:08:52.731 --> 01:08:55.791
was great with a low dose.

01:08:55.791 --> 01:08:57.261
We doubled it and it was awful.

01:08:58.431 --> 01:09:04.731
And what they should have done is
gone back to the low dose and that

01:09:05.031 --> 01:09:07.131
most people, the starter dose works.

01:09:07.461 --> 01:09:11.191
Rupert Isaacson: Now you and I both
know that many parents or people who are

01:09:12.241 --> 01:09:17.401
taking anti-anxiety medications are under
a lot of pressure often to up the dose.

01:09:17.521 --> 01:09:17.791
Not,

01:09:17.821 --> 01:09:17.822
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:17.821 --> 01:09:18.031
no.

01:09:18.031 --> 01:09:19.471
There's a point where you don't.

01:09:19.711 --> 01:09:20.011
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:20.821 --> 01:09:20.822
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:20.821 --> 01:09:24.631
I have been on the same dose
for, since my early thirties.

01:09:24.781 --> 01:09:24.991
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:09:25.291 --> 01:09:25.292
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:25.291 --> 01:09:29.821
Don't, you don't wanna get
into an escalating dose.

01:09:30.661 --> 01:09:32.161
No, I resisted that.

01:09:32.581 --> 01:09:38.311
The other important thing is the
exercise also very, very important.

01:09:40.111 --> 01:09:44.881
Rupert Isaacson: Did you find yourself
under pressure to up your dose?

01:09:45.031 --> 01:09:46.292
And if so, how did you resist it?

01:09:46.346 --> 01:09:46.347
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:46.346 --> 01:09:47.701
I knew it would be trouble.

01:09:48.181 --> 01:09:48.391
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:09:48.721 --> 01:09:50.041
Why did you know it would be trouble?

01:09:51.121 --> 01:09:51.122
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:51.121 --> 01:09:51.961
Well, I, what gave you that

01:09:51.961 --> 01:09:52.381
Rupert Isaacson: insight?

01:09:52.621 --> 01:09:52.622
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:09:52.621 --> 01:09:55.321
Well, you're gonna get poisoned
for one thing possibly.

01:09:55.861 --> 01:09:59.731
It, it, and the other thing I
found is the nerves went in cycles.

01:10:00.841 --> 01:10:05.191
And before I took the medication,
I, my nerves were going, I have to

01:10:05.191 --> 01:10:07.711
use English speed limits for cars.

01:10:07.711 --> 01:10:08.881
But this was the analogy.

01:10:09.091 --> 01:10:14.401
I was going 200 miles an hour, between 200
miles an hour and a hundred miles an hour.

01:10:16.231 --> 01:10:20.176
When I went on the medication, I was
going 55 miles an hour to a hundred.

01:10:20.416 --> 01:10:21.376
It still cycled.

01:10:23.086 --> 01:10:25.756
And I knew that the nerves went in cycles.

01:10:26.356 --> 01:10:31.486
So I toughed out the cycle and
then that dose still worked and I

01:10:31.486 --> 01:10:34.546
knew it'd be in trouble if I kept
taking higher and higher doses.

01:10:34.756 --> 01:10:37.336
The other thing is you wanna, you
wanna avoid the Valium, all the

01:10:37.336 --> 01:10:39.196
benzo drugs, you wanna avoid those.

01:10:40.066 --> 01:10:40.846
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about why?

01:10:42.346 --> 01:10:42.347
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:10:42.346 --> 01:10:47.386
Well, you can't get off of them and,
and they have to keep upping the dose

01:10:49.006 --> 01:10:49.801
Rupert Isaacson: because
you build tolerance

01:10:49.801 --> 01:10:49.802
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:10:49.801 --> 01:10:50.601
antidepressants.

01:10:50.621 --> 01:10:52.366
Now you can stay on the same dose.

01:10:52.636 --> 01:10:52.906
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:10:54.766 --> 01:10:54.767
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:10:54.766 --> 01:10:56.596
And also you gotta do the exercise.

01:10:58.336 --> 01:11:00.196
Rupert Isaacson: If you
don't do the exercise,

01:11:00.496 --> 01:11:00.497
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:11:00.496 --> 01:11:01.546
that doesn't, you are gonna be

01:11:01.546 --> 01:11:01.906
Rupert Isaacson: in trouble.

01:11:01.906 --> 01:11:01.936
Okay.

01:11:02.116 --> 01:11:02.861
You have to do that.

01:11:03.611 --> 01:11:08.266
Talk to us about why, why, why is the
exercise so important for, for the mental,

01:11:08.296 --> 01:11:08.297
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:11:08.296 --> 01:11:11.596
well, I've actually looked up
some research and a burst of,

01:11:11.596 --> 01:11:13.216
in a burst of heart exercise.

01:11:14.206 --> 01:11:15.256
Just walking.

01:11:15.616 --> 01:11:16.126
Okay.

01:11:16.456 --> 01:11:18.526
I walk a lot in the
airport that doesn't do it.

01:11:19.366 --> 01:11:23.986
I've got to do the burst of hard
exercise where I do those 120

01:11:23.986 --> 01:11:25.786
pushups in like five minutes.

01:11:25.996 --> 01:11:26.176
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:11:27.826 --> 01:11:27.827
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:11:27.826 --> 01:11:28.636
And then I swim.

01:11:28.636 --> 01:11:32.596
The strokes without stomp whole
thing takes just over five minutes.

01:11:32.836 --> 01:11:33.046
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:11:33.676 --> 01:11:33.677
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:11:33.676 --> 01:11:36.676
But that burst of hard ex,
there's now some research on this.

01:11:37.696 --> 01:11:39.586
Of course, I looked up
a lot of this stuff,

01:11:42.976 --> 01:11:46.606
but the burst of hard exercise where
you'd put the exercise machine on a hard

01:11:46.606 --> 01:11:48.676
setting, but you have to work up to that.

01:11:49.726 --> 01:11:53.746
I didn't do a hundred strokes swimming
on the floor in the beginning.

01:11:53.746 --> 01:11:56.416
And then I used to do sit,
sit-ups, but then I was, that

01:11:56.416 --> 01:11:57.946
started hurting my sciatic nerves.

01:11:57.946 --> 01:11:59.176
So I had to stop that.

01:12:00.076 --> 01:12:02.356
But I do a hundred
sit-ups without stopping.

01:12:02.836 --> 01:12:04.006
Rupert Isaacson: Now when you,

01:12:04.066 --> 01:12:04.067
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:04.066 --> 01:12:05.626
but it took a while to work up to that.

01:12:05.626 --> 01:12:06.441
You don't do that

01:12:06.526 --> 01:12:07.036
Rupert Isaacson: overnight.

01:12:07.186 --> 01:12:08.536
You were, you were do.

01:12:11.536 --> 01:12:16.546
You were doing some research into these
hard, these short bursts of hard exercise.

01:12:16.666 --> 01:12:16.667
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:16.666 --> 01:12:17.536
I did some research on that.

01:12:17.596 --> 01:12:18.826
Rupert Isaacson: What
did the research say?

01:12:19.486 --> 01:12:19.487
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:19.486 --> 01:12:20.176
Said it worked.

01:12:20.836 --> 01:12:21.586
Rupert Isaacson: Did they say why?

01:12:22.276 --> 01:12:22.277
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:22.276 --> 01:12:22.546
No.

01:12:22.966 --> 01:12:23.236
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:12:24.316 --> 01:12:25.186
Is it endorphins?

01:12:26.266 --> 01:12:26.267
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:26.266 --> 01:12:28.726
Well, it it, the burst of hard exercise.

01:12:28.726 --> 01:12:32.836
I just, from my, worked better
than quite a lot of walking.

01:12:33.526 --> 01:12:33.856
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:12:34.576 --> 01:12:38.626
So again, let's say we are
equine therapy practitioner, but

01:12:38.626 --> 01:12:38.627
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:38.626 --> 01:12:40.546
on the other hand, you
gotta work up to it slowly.

01:12:40.696 --> 01:12:41.026
Okay.

01:12:41.026 --> 01:12:42.646
I was doing all these sit up.

01:12:43.876 --> 01:12:45.586
I didn't start off doing a hundred sit up.

01:12:46.696 --> 01:12:48.436
It took me three months
to work up to that.

01:12:48.766 --> 01:12:50.146
Rupert Isaacson: But to
get a bit out of breath.

01:12:50.866 --> 01:12:50.867
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:50.866 --> 01:12:51.286
Oh yeah.

01:12:51.586 --> 01:12:51.736
Yeah.

01:12:51.736 --> 01:12:53.266
You have to get a bit out of breath.

01:12:53.686 --> 01:12:57.136
Rupert Isaacson: And how many times
a day would one need to do this?

01:12:57.196 --> 01:12:57.197
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:57.196 --> 01:12:57.856
Just once.

01:12:58.216 --> 01:12:58.516
Rupert Isaacson: Really,

01:12:59.206 --> 01:12:59.207
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:12:59.206 --> 01:12:59.956
I just do it once.

01:13:00.676 --> 01:13:03.686
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:13:04.086 --> 01:13:08.986
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:13:08.986 --> 01:13:11.236
bit about the old master system.

01:13:11.701 --> 01:13:13.011
of dressage training.

01:13:13.051 --> 01:13:21.621
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:13:21.691 --> 01:13:27.971
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:13:27.981 --> 01:13:34.501
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:13:34.551 --> 01:13:37.321
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:13:37.381 --> 01:13:38.121
Intrigued?

01:13:38.321 --> 01:13:39.181
Like to know more?

01:13:40.051 --> 01:13:42.881
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:13:44.581 --> 01:13:46.271
Check out the free introduction course.

01:13:46.831 --> 01:13:47.351
Take it from there.

01:13:47.855 --> 01:13:50.135
What if you're a, what if
you're a child or an adolescent?

01:13:50.495 --> 01:13:51.275
Do you not need more?

01:13:52.325 --> 01:13:52.326
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:13:52.325 --> 01:13:53.135
Maybe you do.

01:13:53.405 --> 01:13:53.645
Rupert Isaacson: Mm

01:13:53.745 --> 01:13:53.746
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:13:53.745 --> 01:13:56.355
Mother used to say, go outside
and run the energy out of you.

01:13:56.595 --> 01:13:56.865
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:13:58.275 --> 01:13:59.805
I mean it's all the common
sense stuff, isn't it?

01:13:59.805 --> 01:14:03.015
But it's, it's, it's the stuff
one just sees less and less of.

01:14:03.375 --> 01:14:03.376
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:14:03.375 --> 01:14:05.775
Well, I think way too many drugs
are given out to little kids.

01:14:05.835 --> 01:14:07.185
Way too many drugs.

01:14:08.055 --> 01:14:10.695
I was an adult when I started taking this.

01:14:11.475 --> 01:14:16.515
I take one medication, you know,
low dose of an antidepressant.

01:14:17.145 --> 01:14:19.785
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
ideally we should wait till

01:14:19.785 --> 01:14:21.135
someone's an adult before?

01:14:21.675 --> 01:14:21.676
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:14:21.675 --> 01:14:23.985
Well, I look the medications in
general, well I, the way I look

01:14:23.985 --> 01:14:27.165
at it is the younger the kid,
the more cautious you need to be.

01:14:27.405 --> 01:14:27.675
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:14:28.515 --> 01:14:28.516
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:14:28.515 --> 01:14:29.685
That would be kind of how I'd look at it.

01:14:29.865 --> 01:14:34.455
But I'm horrified when I find out
there's a 6-year-old on seven drugs, a

01:14:34.455 --> 01:14:36.765
lot of 'em heavy duty antipsychotics.

01:14:36.915 --> 01:14:37.005
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:14:37.455 --> 01:14:37.456
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:14:37.455 --> 01:14:40.185
And then when you talk to the
parents, no thought went into it.

01:14:40.515 --> 01:14:42.945
Every time there was a meltdown,
throw another prescription at it.

01:14:44.865 --> 01:14:45.135
Yeah.

01:14:45.285 --> 01:14:47.205
And that's bad.

01:14:48.285 --> 01:14:49.815
And the kid now is obese.

01:14:50.895 --> 01:14:53.025
Some of those drugs are
appetite stimulants.

01:14:53.145 --> 01:14:53.445
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:14:53.625 --> 01:14:53.626
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:14:53.625 --> 01:14:56.865
actually they, things like
Abilify and some of that stuff,

01:14:57.375 --> 01:14:59.205
Zyprexa is real bad on that.

01:15:01.245 --> 01:15:05.865
Rupert Isaacson: Let's say a kid is
on those seven medications and it's

01:15:05.865 --> 01:15:09.135
having a clear ill effect on that body.

01:15:09.165 --> 01:15:09.166
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:15:09.165 --> 01:15:11.355
Well, lemme go try to get rid
of some of the medications.

01:15:11.445 --> 01:15:12.495
Rupert Isaacson: How does one

01:15:13.575 --> 01:15:13.576
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:15:13.575 --> 01:15:13.905
scale back?

01:15:13.905 --> 01:15:16.845
The first thing I wanna do is
to try to figure out what, what,

01:15:16.875 --> 01:15:19.305
when they first prescribed them,
what were they trying to do?

01:15:19.575 --> 01:15:19.695
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:15:19.965 --> 01:15:20.175
See,

01:15:20.175 --> 01:15:20.176
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:15:20.175 --> 01:15:24.795
the other mistake that's made is
you need to try one thing at a time.

01:15:25.095 --> 01:15:27.675
You don't start a diet and
a drug at the same time.

01:15:27.885 --> 01:15:31.335
You don't start a new school and
a drug at the same time, otherwise

01:15:31.335 --> 01:15:32.235
you don't know what worked.

01:15:35.115 --> 01:15:38.625
And then you, if you're gonna try
medication, try one medication at a time.

01:15:38.625 --> 01:15:39.375
See what it does.

01:15:42.105 --> 01:15:43.035
Take notes on it.

01:15:46.380 --> 01:15:48.150
Then some of the kids need to be
gotten off of some of this stuff

01:15:48.150 --> 01:15:52.260
because there are some kids, young
teenagers, and they're horribly fat.

01:15:53.070 --> 01:15:57.030
And the antipsychotic drugs
are appetite stimulants.

01:15:57.330 --> 01:15:57.660
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:15:57.750 --> 01:15:57.870
That's

01:15:57.870 --> 01:15:57.871
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:15:57.870 --> 01:15:58.980
why they're getting so fat.

01:15:59.375 --> 01:15:59.665
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:16:01.080 --> 01:16:01.320
Yeah.

01:16:01.320 --> 01:16:02.880
And then of course they're
at risk from diabetes.

01:16:03.370 --> 01:16:03.460
Well

01:16:03.460 --> 01:16:03.461
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:16:03.460 --> 01:16:04.180
that's the problem.

01:16:04.180 --> 01:16:04.390
Yeah.

01:16:04.390 --> 01:16:05.740
No, and that's super bad.

01:16:06.040 --> 01:16:06.400
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:16:07.660 --> 01:16:11.950
I have some kids that come out to me
from an international school that are

01:16:11.980 --> 01:16:19.960
medicated, and I realized that what they
really needed to do above all was range.

01:16:20.620 --> 01:16:21.400
These are boys.

01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:28.540
So I stopped meeting them at our,
at our barn, and I started saying

01:16:28.570 --> 01:16:32.170
to the person, bringing them, meet
me in the forest at this car park.

01:16:32.680 --> 01:16:38.230
I'll be there with the horses
at a certain time, and then

01:16:38.230 --> 01:16:39.820
let's just go into the forest.

01:16:40.585 --> 01:16:42.085
And the horses will be available.

01:16:42.085 --> 01:16:45.325
So generally what, and I realized
what happened, and these kids are

01:16:47.365 --> 01:16:48.265
between seven and 10.

01:16:49.315 --> 01:16:55.525
And if you let them, they would range over
about 10 kilometers over about five miles.

01:16:55.585 --> 01:16:55.765
Yeah.

01:16:55.885 --> 01:16:57.085
Of mixed terrain.

01:16:57.775 --> 01:17:01.075
And you could help them getting
over, you'd need one person to

01:17:01.075 --> 01:17:06.355
look after the horse and they would
be climbing over logs of course.

01:17:06.355 --> 01:17:09.265
Discovering all sorts of things
in nature, but really working out

01:17:09.265 --> 01:17:10.585
because our terrain's very hilly.

01:17:10.855 --> 01:17:10.856
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:17:10.855 --> 01:17:11.155
Oh yeah.

01:17:11.155 --> 01:17:14.875
There's a lot of, there's a
lot, you know, heavy work OTs

01:17:14.875 --> 01:17:15.925
for years have talked about.

01:17:15.925 --> 01:17:16.225
Right.

01:17:16.375 --> 01:17:17.905
But we wouldn't have to tell 'em to do it.

01:17:17.995 --> 01:17:19.945
Rupert Isaacson: They would just do it.

01:17:20.575 --> 01:17:20.695
Yeah.

01:17:20.700 --> 01:17:20.890
And.

01:17:22.090 --> 01:17:26.020
Oftentimes the, the people bringing them
would say, oh, don't let them, you know,

01:17:26.020 --> 01:17:27.370
they're supposed to be like, no, no, no.

01:17:27.400 --> 01:17:28.120
Let them.

01:17:28.780 --> 01:17:32.740
And when we started really letting
them, what was amazing was, as

01:17:32.740 --> 01:17:35.950
you say, we started to see these
immense behavioral changes.

01:17:36.010 --> 01:17:39.940
And then when they were really tired at
the end, we might find ourselves three,

01:17:40.240 --> 01:17:43.720
three kilometers, you know, a mile
and a half or more away from the barn.

01:17:43.900 --> 01:17:48.010
Then the horses came into play
because then they wanted to ride home.

01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:51.670
And then of course all the vestibular
stuff would happen on the horse,

01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:52.001
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:52.720
but we realized

01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:55.720
Rupert Isaacson: we got way more bang
for the buck than if we just worked.

01:17:56.020 --> 01:17:56.021
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:17:56.020 --> 01:17:59.290
But that's, you know, getting 'em
out, you know, because today aren't

01:17:59.350 --> 01:18:00.940
getting out and doing enough stuff.

01:18:01.780 --> 01:18:04.720
And you know, way too many drugs
are given out, way too many.

01:18:06.340 --> 01:18:10.360
And then on the A DHD drugs, when you try
those, you'll know right away whether they

01:18:10.360 --> 01:18:15.820
work or not would be obvious, but a drug
should have an obvious, beneficial effect.

01:18:16.240 --> 01:18:16.330
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:16.721
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:17.140
And.

01:18:17.845 --> 01:18:19.645
My health was deteriorating.

01:18:19.915 --> 01:18:23.395
So I went through my twenties
worse and worse and worse.

01:18:23.635 --> 01:18:24.745
Colitis attacks.

01:18:25.195 --> 01:18:25.465
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:18:25.585 --> 01:18:25.586
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:25.585 --> 01:18:28.375
Absolutely horrible Colitis attacks.

01:18:28.405 --> 01:18:29.185
Rupert Isaacson: Stress induced.

01:18:29.185 --> 01:18:29.635
Do you think?

01:18:30.325 --> 01:18:30.326
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:30.325 --> 01:18:34.165
Oh, when I went on the medication,
the colitis was almost cured.

01:18:34.615 --> 01:18:34.765
Okay.

01:18:36.770 --> 01:18:37.820
You know, almost.

01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:40.010
Rupert Isaacson: And do you think
the colitis was a, a buildup

01:18:40.010 --> 01:18:41.420
of cortisol in your system?

01:18:41.420 --> 01:18:41.690
Well,

01:18:41.690 --> 01:18:41.691
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:41.690 --> 01:18:45.740
I, all, all it was, was they,
my fear system was ramped up.

01:18:45.740 --> 01:18:46.100
Okay.

01:18:46.100 --> 01:18:47.305
I got bigger amygdala.

01:18:47.335 --> 01:18:47.625
Yeah.

01:18:47.630 --> 01:18:51.410
My fear system was just turned
on due to a physiological defect.

01:18:51.830 --> 01:18:52.220
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:18:52.220 --> 01:18:52.400
That

01:18:52.490 --> 01:18:52.491
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:52.490 --> 01:18:55.580
ramped up the fear response when
there was nothing to be afraid of.

01:18:55.585 --> 01:18:55.825
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:18:56.725 --> 01:18:56.726
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:18:56.725 --> 01:18:59.900
And way I like to look at
what the antidepressant did.

01:19:00.350 --> 01:19:03.590
It was like adjusting the idle screw
on an old fashioned carburetor.

01:19:04.460 --> 01:19:05.750
You'll know what that is.

01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:06.080
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:19:06.950 --> 01:19:06.951
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:19:06.950 --> 01:19:08.750
And so the engine is not racing.

01:19:09.385 --> 01:19:09.505
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:19:10.730 --> 01:19:10.731
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:19:10.730 --> 01:19:14.720
I know that's an old fashioned analogy,
but I think it's a really good one.

01:19:16.400 --> 01:19:16.790
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:19:17.540 --> 01:19:24.440
It often seems that whether one is on the
spectrum or not, the, the definition of

01:19:24.440 --> 01:19:28.190
modern life is that we're going through
life with one foot on our internal

01:19:28.190 --> 01:19:30.020
accelerator and one foot on our brake.

01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:30.920
And

01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:30.921
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:32.540
yeah, that would be a
good way of putting it.

01:19:32.780 --> 01:19:35.690
And what the Met drug did, it
was like turning the idle screw.

01:19:36.080 --> 01:19:43.250
So instead of cycling way up
here, I'm now cycling down here.

01:19:43.490 --> 01:19:45.650
Rupert Isaacson: But you keep
the dose very, very, very small.

01:19:46.280 --> 01:19:46.281
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:19:46.280 --> 01:19:48.770
The dose is starter dose,
it's an old drugs dys start

01:19:49.310 --> 01:19:50.120
Rupert Isaacson: dose or less old

01:19:50.145 --> 01:19:50.146
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:19:50.145 --> 01:19:50.425
drug.

01:19:51.260 --> 01:19:52.790
And I take a starter dose.

01:19:53.750 --> 01:19:58.190
I am, I've been on it for,
since my early thirties.

01:19:58.520 --> 01:19:58.610
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:20:00.110 --> 01:20:00.111
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:00.110 --> 01:20:00.890
Same dose.

01:20:02.330 --> 01:20:04.010
Rupert Isaacson: And you haven't
built up a resistance to it or

01:20:04.310 --> 01:20:05.780
tolerance that makes it have to go up?

01:20:05.780 --> 01:20:05.781
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:05.780 --> 01:20:10.310
Well, because I don't, I resist the
urge to take a higher dose and that you

01:20:10.310 --> 01:20:11.810
can do this with the antidepressants.

01:20:12.320 --> 01:20:13.700
Rupert Isaacson: How
do you resist the urge?

01:20:15.275 --> 01:20:15.276
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:15.275 --> 01:20:17.795
I knew as a scientist I'd be in trouble.

01:20:18.665 --> 01:20:18.695
Mm.

01:20:18.695 --> 01:20:21.605
That I couldn't just be upping
and upping and upping the

01:20:21.605 --> 01:20:23.975
dose that that would be bad.

01:20:24.365 --> 01:20:24.545
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:20:25.205 --> 01:20:25.206
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:25.205 --> 01:20:26.345
Took some willpower

01:20:26.885 --> 01:20:34.085
Rupert Isaacson: and the, the But you
weren't seeing a return of your symptoms

01:20:34.085 --> 01:20:36.215
or a worsening of your symptoms?

01:20:36.425 --> 01:20:36.426
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:36.425 --> 01:20:36.670
Oh, no.

01:20:36.675 --> 01:20:36.845
No.

01:20:36.905 --> 01:20:37.115
Right.

01:20:37.145 --> 01:20:37.415
No.

01:20:38.015 --> 01:20:40.355
So what would've been the
temptation to up the dose then?

01:20:40.355 --> 01:20:40.565
Well, okay.

01:20:40.565 --> 01:20:41.705
Went on the medication.

01:20:41.705 --> 01:20:46.535
The intensity of the engine
racing was always less.

01:20:46.745 --> 01:20:47.075
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:20:47.915 --> 01:20:47.916
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:47.915 --> 01:20:48.395
Always.

01:20:48.755 --> 01:20:52.925
And what I recommend, I really
recommend, it's okay if it's

01:20:52.925 --> 01:20:54.395
the old edition of this book.

01:20:54.570 --> 01:20:54.990
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:20:55.070 --> 01:20:57.750
Thinking of pictures for those
who are listening pictures.

01:20:57.750 --> 01:20:57.751
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:20:57.750 --> 01:21:00.665
There's a chapter and they're called
a believer in biochemistry, and

01:21:00.665 --> 01:21:02.045
I'd recommend them reading that.

01:21:02.045 --> 01:21:02.675
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:21:03.215 --> 01:21:03.216
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:03.215 --> 01:21:07.745
Even if it's an old edition, the, the,
everything I'm telling you is still true.

01:21:08.075 --> 01:21:13.355
And Prozac is in here because
that was invented in 1988.

01:21:14.930 --> 01:21:16.220
Rupert Isaacson: When you I know people

01:21:16.220 --> 01:21:16.221
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:16.220 --> 01:21:19.375
that have gone on a low dose of
Prozac where it's worked really well.

01:21:19.825 --> 01:21:23.505
Rupert Isaacson: When you say you
had to resist temptation not to up

01:21:23.505 --> 01:21:25.845
the dose, what was the temptation?

01:21:27.285 --> 01:21:27.286
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:27.285 --> 01:21:28.935
Well just get more and more nervous,

01:21:29.350 --> 01:21:29.810
Rupert Isaacson: but, and,

01:21:30.435 --> 01:21:30.436
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:30.435 --> 01:21:34.995
but I knew in the past that
my anxiety would go in cycles.

01:21:35.055 --> 01:21:35.685
Rupert Isaacson: I see.

01:21:35.685 --> 01:21:36.945
So when you were cycling up And I

01:21:36.945 --> 01:21:36.946
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:36.945 --> 01:21:39.255
knew that from, I knew from the past.

01:21:39.825 --> 01:21:40.065
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:21:40.185 --> 01:21:40.186
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:40.185 --> 01:21:42.435
And that then the cycles would pass.

01:21:45.255 --> 01:21:45.675
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:21:45.735 --> 01:21:50.805
So even when, when you were at the lower
level of cycling it, the temptation

01:21:50.805 --> 01:21:52.185
came when you were cycling up?

01:21:52.605 --> 01:21:52.606
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:52.605 --> 01:21:53.145
That's right.

01:21:53.265 --> 01:21:55.845
Rupert Isaacson: And that was when you
had to talk to yourself a little bit?

01:21:56.205 --> 01:21:56.206
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:21:56.205 --> 01:21:56.445
Yeah.

01:21:56.865 --> 01:21:59.025
And then I, to make
sure I did the exercise.

01:21:59.205 --> 01:22:01.635
Rupert Isaacson: So the exercise,
when you're on the upcycle,

01:22:01.695 --> 01:22:01.696
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:01.695 --> 01:22:03.075
I do the exercise every day.

01:22:03.285 --> 01:22:03.645
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:22:04.185 --> 01:22:04.186
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:04.185 --> 01:22:05.655
And I'll tell you right
now, do I enjoy it?

01:22:05.715 --> 01:22:07.125
No, I do not enjoy it.

01:22:07.190 --> 01:22:07.470
Okay.

01:22:08.295 --> 01:22:09.915
I figure it's something I have to do.

01:22:10.185 --> 01:22:10.485
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:22:11.445 --> 01:22:11.446
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:11.445 --> 01:22:12.315
Every night.

01:22:12.660 --> 01:22:15.900
If I'm in a hotel room, I put a
towel down on the floor and I do it.

01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:16.710
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:22:17.730 --> 01:22:17.731
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:17.730 --> 01:22:20.850
And I reason I'd rather do
something like that because then

01:22:20.850 --> 01:22:22.320
there's no excuse for not doing it.

01:22:23.460 --> 01:22:24.555
Rupert Isaacson: It also
just keeps, I can always

01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:24.561
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:26.340
put a towel down on the floor in a hotel.

01:22:27.330 --> 01:22:28.950
Rupert Isaacson: It's it's
interesting, you know, my father

01:22:28.950 --> 01:22:34.680
who's 91 this year just religiously
does his exercise routine.

01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:41.670
And well, he's 91, you know, and off
to Zimbabwe this year by himself.

01:22:41.940 --> 01:22:44.880
Even though, you know, he's not, he's
not as strong as he was, obviously.

01:22:45.340 --> 01:22:45.430
Well,

01:22:45.430 --> 01:22:45.431
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:45.430 --> 01:22:48.075
obviously, but he will
say, tell me I'm 77.

01:22:48.095 --> 01:22:48.515
Mm-hmm.

01:22:48.595 --> 01:22:50.020
I'll be 78 this summer.

01:22:50.860 --> 01:22:53.980
And they say, well, you're a lot more
mobile than a lot of other people I

01:22:53.980 --> 01:22:55.360
know that are in the early seventies.

01:22:55.630 --> 01:22:55.870
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:22:56.800 --> 01:22:56.801
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:22:56.800 --> 01:23:00.340
Well, because I make myself exercise
and then this new thing, you know,

01:23:00.340 --> 01:23:02.410
connoisseur of the ceilings I call it.

01:23:03.580 --> 01:23:06.910
And then when I'm outside, it's
connoisseur of the tops of the lampposts.

01:23:07.765 --> 01:23:10.465
Or, well, if I'm walking
in this neighborhood here,

01:23:10.915 --> 01:23:12.415
there's all two story homes.

01:23:13.015 --> 01:23:14.605
I'll look at the bottom edge of the roof,

01:23:15.235 --> 01:23:15.745
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:23:18.055 --> 01:23:18.056
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:23:18.055 --> 01:23:20.545
And it's something I have
to make myself do it.

01:23:21.385 --> 01:23:22.585
And it's helped my back.

01:23:24.235 --> 01:23:28.105
And I told a lady yesterday, I said,
you need to really check out the tru and

01:23:28.105 --> 01:23:30.955
steel trusses in our new supermarket.

01:23:31.165 --> 01:23:31.890
That's in a factory.

01:23:31.920 --> 01:23:33.295
It's in a factory building.

01:23:35.095 --> 01:23:35.395
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

01:23:36.175 --> 01:23:37.555
So I've been taking some notes.

01:23:37.705 --> 01:23:37.706
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:23:37.705 --> 01:23:41.305
Black, they painted all the ceiling
dresses black, so they, you don't

01:23:41.305 --> 01:23:45.025
see them as much, but, but you
have to look up to see that.

01:23:45.235 --> 01:23:48.265
And what you do is you look up
and you can see the ceiling, but

01:23:48.265 --> 01:23:49.465
you still have to see the floor.

01:23:50.395 --> 01:23:54.715
But you see, I realize that I'd hunch
over and that I wasn't ever seeing

01:23:54.715 --> 01:24:00.355
the ceiling and have to another way,
way doing a restaurant that had some

01:24:00.355 --> 01:24:01.885
really interesting stuff on the ceiling.

01:24:02.545 --> 01:24:05.390
And she says, oh, I never noticed all that
wood stuff they had up on the ceiling.

01:24:06.220 --> 01:24:07.360
That's really interesting.

01:24:08.260 --> 01:24:09.370
She'd never seen it before.

01:24:11.380 --> 01:24:13.720
Rupert Isaacson: It makes me feel
another thing that might be a good

01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:18.970
idea then as a equine practitioner
might be to put some interesting stuff

01:24:18.970 --> 01:24:25.600
hanging from the ceiling in the arena
and in the other rooms that we use to

01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:29.530
encourage different vestibular positions.

01:24:29.530 --> 01:24:29.680
Right.

01:24:29.680 --> 01:24:29.830
Well, yeah,

01:24:29.830 --> 01:24:29.831
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:24:29.830 --> 01:24:34.260
maybe it's doing something vestibular,
but I found it did a lot for my back.

01:24:34.350 --> 01:24:34.470
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:24:34.890 --> 01:24:34.891
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:24:34.890 --> 01:24:39.840
And just one day I realized all
the ceilings that I'd walked

01:24:39.840 --> 01:24:41.940
under, I'd never seen them.

01:24:42.450 --> 01:24:44.040
Then when I started to look up, I go,

01:24:44.190 --> 01:24:45.690
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, there
might be a Michelangelo up there.

01:24:45.690 --> 01:24:46.260
You just dunno.

01:24:47.190 --> 01:24:47.191
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:24:47.190 --> 01:24:51.480
Well, no, there's like pigeons
up there and stuff like that.

01:24:52.200 --> 01:24:52.560
Rupert Isaacson: Well,

01:24:53.190 --> 01:24:53.191
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:24:53.190 --> 01:24:53.850
but oh boy.

01:24:53.850 --> 01:24:56.520
You can sure find a, a,
a, a broken ceiling tile.

01:24:56.760 --> 01:24:57.390
You'll find it.

01:24:58.965 --> 01:25:01.875
Rupert Isaacson: So while you've been
talking, I've been taking some notes

01:25:01.905 --> 01:25:06.885
and it's really interesting, a structure
has evolved, which let you know the

01:25:06.885 --> 01:25:10.005
majority of people listening to this
particular podcast are going to be

01:25:10.005 --> 01:25:11.685
therapeutic writing practitioners.

01:25:12.015 --> 01:25:12.016
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:12.015 --> 01:25:12.375
Yes.

01:25:12.465 --> 01:25:15.985
Rupert Isaacson: And so let me take you
through, I've got six points on this.

01:25:16.675 --> 01:25:18.205
Let me just read them back to you.

01:25:18.535 --> 01:25:18.536
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:18.535 --> 01:25:18.985
Okay.

01:25:19.075 --> 01:25:22.375
Rupert Isaacson: And then you tell
me if there's anything we should add.

01:25:23.065 --> 01:25:23.066
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:23.065 --> 01:25:23.305
Okay.

01:25:23.305 --> 01:25:23.605
So

01:25:23.995 --> 01:25:26.935
Rupert Isaacson: number
one, get retirees into help.

01:25:27.055 --> 01:25:28.015
So you have Yes.

01:25:28.645 --> 01:25:29.845
Cross generational.

01:25:30.055 --> 01:25:31.045
Yeah, that's right.

01:25:31.165 --> 01:25:31.645
Being, yeah.

01:25:32.245 --> 01:25:36.415
You know, and then get those
retirees to teach those skills.

01:25:36.415 --> 01:25:38.125
Often practical skills.

01:25:38.605 --> 01:25:38.606
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:38.605 --> 01:25:38.905
Yep.

01:25:39.085 --> 01:25:42.715
Rupert Isaacson: Two, get
kids greeting and selling.

01:25:42.745 --> 01:25:42.746
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:42.745 --> 01:25:42.925
Yeah.

01:25:42.925 --> 01:25:46.225
The other thing is also want the retirees
working with the three-year-olds.

01:25:46.525 --> 01:25:46.885
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:25:47.380 --> 01:25:47.381
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:47.380 --> 01:25:49.570
A little nonverbal, three
year olds early intervention.

01:25:49.630 --> 01:25:51.730
I want retirees working
on early intervention.

01:25:51.730 --> 01:25:52.270
Rupert Isaacson: Specifically.

01:25:52.270 --> 01:25:53.980
Why that population?

01:25:53.980 --> 01:25:54.220
Why?

01:25:54.225 --> 01:25:54.405
Why?

01:25:54.810 --> 01:25:55.240
'cause they get

01:25:55.240 --> 01:25:55.241
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:55.240 --> 01:25:56.650
no services otherwise.

01:25:56.740 --> 01:25:57.670
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

01:25:58.275 --> 01:25:58.565
Okay.

01:25:58.570 --> 01:25:58.930
They're on a

01:25:58.930 --> 01:25:58.931
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:25:58.930 --> 01:25:59.950
two year wait list.

01:26:00.850 --> 01:26:01.270
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:26:01.570 --> 01:26:01.571
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:01.570 --> 01:26:01.780
Okay.

01:26:01.780 --> 01:26:02.830
That's the reason why.

01:26:03.250 --> 01:26:03.580
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:26:04.180 --> 01:26:10.090
So get your retirees in partly to do shop
and practical skills for your older kids.

01:26:10.180 --> 01:26:10.270
Yeah.

01:26:10.270 --> 01:26:13.225
But and partly to do
stuff with the nonverbals.

01:26:13.230 --> 01:26:14.510
'cause the nonverbals are on Wait, little

01:26:14.510 --> 01:26:14.511
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:14.510 --> 01:26:15.020
kids

01:26:15.140 --> 01:26:15.530
Rupert Isaacson: got it.

01:26:15.680 --> 01:26:15.681
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:15.680 --> 01:26:19.340
That little kids where they're on wait
lists, they're not getting any therapy.

01:26:20.120 --> 01:26:21.530
We'll call it horse play

01:26:22.190 --> 01:26:23.180
Rupert Isaacson: in Instagram.

01:26:23.210 --> 01:26:24.260
Parent basically.

01:26:24.590 --> 01:26:24.591
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:24.590 --> 01:26:24.800
Yeah.

01:26:24.940 --> 01:26:25.900
Rupert Isaacson: Okay then which

01:26:26.170 --> 01:26:26.171
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:26.170 --> 01:26:26.620
play library?

01:26:26.620 --> 01:26:26.980
Play

01:26:27.610 --> 01:26:28.000
Rupert Isaacson: two.

01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:30.370
Get kids greeting and selling and Yes.

01:26:30.580 --> 01:26:32.650
Set that up at your barn.

01:26:32.980 --> 01:26:32.981
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:32.980 --> 01:26:33.250
Yes'.

01:26:33.250 --> 01:26:35.441
Be done in a controlled environment
so the kids can be done that.

01:26:35.441 --> 01:26:36.250
And that's be done very easily.

01:26:36.520 --> 01:26:36.670
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:26:36.670 --> 01:26:36.940
Okay.

01:26:37.660 --> 01:26:38.260
Three.

01:26:38.530 --> 01:26:42.250
Have a garden, have a shop,
have a repair shop, and.

01:26:42.865 --> 01:26:46.645
Get the kids involved in that, not
just the horses and the horse care.

01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:47.820
Yes.

01:26:47.875 --> 01:26:48.895
What have we got here?

01:26:50.425 --> 01:26:52.075
Read my terrible writing here.

01:26:52.465 --> 01:26:53.155
Oh, yes.

01:26:53.465 --> 01:26:58.535
For a job, a paper round or a dog walk
again, because that's all paper rounds.

01:26:58.535 --> 01:26:58.536
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:26:58.535 --> 01:26:59.315
We don't have many.

01:26:59.315 --> 01:26:59.615
Well,

01:26:59.645 --> 01:27:01.865
Rupert Isaacson: but
one could, one could re

01:27:02.285 --> 01:27:02.286
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:27:02.285 --> 01:27:02.555
Yeah.

01:27:02.675 --> 01:27:03.065
Recreate those.

01:27:03.065 --> 01:27:05.195
Well, they see, might call it paper route.

01:27:05.315 --> 01:27:06.725
Paper route substitutes.

01:27:06.905 --> 01:27:07.235
Correct.

01:27:07.475 --> 01:27:10.475
Either dog walking,
church, volunteer jobs.

01:27:10.895 --> 01:27:16.085
They, because they, they've, the 11 year
olds got to learn how to do a task on a

01:27:16.085 --> 01:27:18.845
schedule where the boss is not family.

01:27:19.205 --> 01:27:19.715
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:27:20.015 --> 01:27:20.885
The boss is not, is not family.

01:27:21.305 --> 01:27:24.305
So let's say you are the
therapeutic riding owner, okay.

01:27:24.305 --> 01:27:28.115
You could set up, you could, you could go
to five or six neighbors and say, look,

01:27:28.115 --> 01:27:29.975
we need the kids to learn how to do this.

01:27:30.215 --> 01:27:33.756
We are going to have them
deliver these things.

01:27:35.075 --> 01:27:35.765
To you?

01:27:35.770 --> 01:27:35.771
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:27:35.770 --> 01:27:36.480
No, you could do that.

01:27:36.480 --> 01:27:37.080
Yeah, you

01:27:37.265 --> 01:27:37.355
Rupert Isaacson: could.

01:27:37.355 --> 01:27:39.245
Or walk your dog or
something or something, so

01:27:39.545 --> 01:27:39.546
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:27:39.545 --> 01:27:39.640
Oh, yeah.

01:27:39.645 --> 01:27:39.785
Yeah.

01:27:39.785 --> 01:27:41.135
But they need to be learning.

01:27:41.255 --> 01:27:41.495
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:27:41.545 --> 01:27:41.546
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:27:41.545 --> 01:27:45.895
I've gotta substitute, I mean, all our
paper routes now, the ones that are left

01:27:45.895 --> 01:27:47.515
are all done by grownups in cars now.

01:27:47.755 --> 01:27:48.295
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:27:48.455 --> 01:27:51.425
So we, but we could, we could
set that up and recreate that.

01:27:52.025 --> 01:27:52.175
Yeah.

01:27:52.175 --> 01:27:59.095
Which leads into the next one which is
hard exercise because of course also if

01:27:59.095 --> 01:28:03.565
you are having to pound the pavement a
bit and if you are having to dog hard

01:28:03.565 --> 01:28:03.566
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:03.565 --> 01:28:06.655
exercise and what the OTs call heavy work.

01:28:07.075 --> 01:28:07.315
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:28:07.315 --> 01:28:07.615
Which

01:28:07.615 --> 01:28:07.616
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:07.615 --> 01:28:11.155
would be using the
wheelbarrow to clean stalls.

01:28:11.515 --> 01:28:11.755
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

01:28:12.715 --> 01:28:12.716
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:12.715 --> 01:28:15.505
And then when you put the horse poop in
there, the wheel a little bit heavier,

01:28:15.505 --> 01:28:17.995
the thing pushing and you gotta take
it somewhere, you gotta dump it.

01:28:18.145 --> 01:28:18.355
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

01:28:18.985 --> 01:28:18.986
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:18.985 --> 01:28:20.545
And that's heavy work.

01:28:20.545 --> 01:28:21.895
OTs call that heavy work.

01:28:21.955 --> 01:28:24.475
Rupert Isaacson: And perhaps
you've got to navigate those wooden

01:28:24.475 --> 01:28:28.435
planks that you don't fall into
squishy bits on outside and doing

01:28:28.435 --> 01:28:28.436
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:28.435 --> 01:28:29.905
some things that are heavy work.

01:28:30.115 --> 01:28:30.415
Okay.

01:28:30.415 --> 01:28:31.530
Heavy work pay bales.

01:28:32.245 --> 01:28:34.045
Some of the old, older individuals.

01:28:35.095 --> 01:28:35.365
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:28:35.785 --> 01:28:38.275
And again, our retirees
could be helping with this.

01:28:38.665 --> 01:28:38.666
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:38.665 --> 01:28:38.845
Yeah.

01:28:38.845 --> 01:28:40.225
They could be helping assist it,

01:28:40.230 --> 01:28:40.915
Rupert Isaacson: which, which would, and

01:28:40.915 --> 01:28:40.916
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:40.915 --> 01:28:43.465
they don't have to do the lifting
and the kids do the lifting,

01:28:43.495 --> 01:28:44.425
Rupert Isaacson: but they can assist

01:28:44.785 --> 01:28:44.786
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:44.785 --> 01:28:47.305
in, I, right now in my way of
my back is I cannot lift a bail

01:28:47.305 --> 01:28:47.485
Rupert Isaacson: hay.

01:28:47.485 --> 01:28:47.755
Right.

01:28:48.205 --> 01:28:48.206
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:48.205 --> 01:28:49.375
That's something I cannot do.

01:28:49.855 --> 01:28:50.425
Rupert Isaacson: And then,

01:28:50.695 --> 01:28:50.696
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:28:50.695 --> 01:28:52.675
and I can't, I can't pick
up an entire box of books.

01:28:52.675 --> 01:28:56.275
I've got a thing that wanted me
bring a box of books, but I can't

01:28:56.275 --> 01:28:58.225
carry it in from the parking lot.

01:28:58.525 --> 01:28:58.915
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:29:00.235 --> 01:29:00.236
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:29:00.235 --> 01:29:05.095
I can bring in like three or four books,
but pick up a box of books that's, no.

01:29:05.095 --> 01:29:07.135
I had to give up this heavy briefcase.

01:29:07.135 --> 01:29:08.125
I was carrying around.

01:29:08.515 --> 01:29:11.785
Well now I just leave it home and put
my wallet out with a leather string

01:29:11.785 --> 01:29:16.675
around my shoulder and we don't bring
the briefcase in from the parking garage.

01:29:16.975 --> 01:29:17.035
Okay.

01:29:17.035 --> 01:29:17.785
It's hurting my back.

01:29:17.785 --> 01:29:21.835
I had to stop doing that and now
I, in the airport, I put it on

01:29:21.835 --> 01:29:23.335
the other bag and it rolls now.

01:29:23.875 --> 01:29:24.235
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:29:24.895 --> 01:29:26.425
I should imagine though that even if it

01:29:26.425 --> 01:29:26.426
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:29:26.425 --> 01:29:29.335
doesn't have even coming off the
plane, I try to have it roll.

01:29:29.935 --> 01:29:32.305
I can't always do that,
but sometimes, right.

01:29:32.695 --> 01:29:33.055
Rupert Isaacson: Just carry on.

01:29:33.055 --> 01:29:36.325
I should imagine though, for, for
the younger kids that are needing

01:29:36.325 --> 01:29:39.805
to learn how to lift and push
a wheelbarrow and navigate well

01:29:39.850 --> 01:29:40.890
the younger kids, you do this

01:29:40.890 --> 01:29:40.891
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:29:40.890 --> 01:29:41.130
stuff,

01:29:41.390 --> 01:29:43.525
Rupert Isaacson: that's not gonna
be a particularly heavy wheelbarrow.

01:29:43.525 --> 01:29:43.855
Right.

01:29:43.855 --> 01:29:47.095
So no, it gonna feel heavy to the
kid, but it's not gonna be that heavy.

01:29:47.095 --> 01:29:47.335
So,

01:29:47.635 --> 01:29:47.636
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:29:47.635 --> 01:29:47.695
no.

01:29:47.695 --> 01:29:50.905
And, and, but you see, this is what the
occupational therapists call heavy work.

01:29:51.205 --> 01:29:51.475
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:29:52.405 --> 01:29:52.705
Okay.

01:29:53.215 --> 01:30:00.325
And then six if there are meds involved
keep them on a starter dose or less.

01:30:00.535 --> 01:30:00.536
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:00.535 --> 01:30:05.545
Well the, first of all, the starter
dose thing is for the antidepressants.

01:30:05.635 --> 01:30:05.995
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:30:07.045 --> 01:30:07.405
Okay.

01:30:07.495 --> 01:30:07.496
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:07.495 --> 01:30:10.645
Other drugs, you might have to have
more than the starter dose, but for

01:30:10.645 --> 01:30:15.355
antidepressants it's starter dose
or less that for that particular

01:30:15.535 --> 01:30:15.805
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:30:15.805 --> 01:30:16.225
Drugs,

01:30:16.315 --> 01:30:16.316
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:16.315 --> 01:30:18.645
Prozac Zoloft.

01:30:18.705 --> 01:30:18.825
Okay.

01:30:18.915 --> 01:30:20.325
I'm using the old brand names.

01:30:20.325 --> 01:30:20.326
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:30:20.930 --> 01:30:20.931
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:20.930 --> 01:30:21.370
Sertraline.

01:30:24.105 --> 01:30:25.995
Ine, that's, that isn't a very good drug.

01:30:25.995 --> 01:30:27.105
I, we used that one.

01:30:27.945 --> 01:30:28.930
Rupert Isaacson: And, but for

01:30:29.235 --> 01:30:29.236
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:29.235 --> 01:30:30.585
antidepressants,

01:30:30.590 --> 01:30:31.530
Rupert Isaacson: antidepressants, what?

01:30:33.255 --> 01:30:33.256
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:30:33.255 --> 01:30:36.895
And other drugs you may have to use
the, the dose on the label, like

01:30:36.895 --> 01:30:41.035
from some of the stimulants, but
antidepressants, it start a dose or less.

01:30:41.575 --> 01:30:45.715
But they, the thing I'm seeing it,
you know, and I see this with a lot of

01:30:45.715 --> 01:30:49.065
nonverbal kids they're like seven drugs.

01:30:49.125 --> 01:30:51.615
And when you talk to the
parents, no thought went into it.

01:30:52.125 --> 01:30:52.395
Mm-hmm.

01:30:52.395 --> 01:30:52.485
Mm-hmm.

01:30:54.075 --> 01:30:56.745
And then you have some of these kids
that got epilepsy, they're gonna

01:30:56.745 --> 01:30:58.185
have to take medication for that.

01:30:58.185 --> 01:30:58.305
Have to.

01:30:59.385 --> 01:30:59.625
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:31:00.255 --> 01:31:05.175
But again, one would expect that
to be exceptional, not the norm.

01:31:05.925 --> 01:31:05.926
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:31:05.925 --> 01:31:09.315
Well, yeah, you wanna, basically,
my principle is the younger

01:31:09.315 --> 01:31:13.005
the child, the more cautious
you wanna be about medication.

01:31:14.055 --> 01:31:14.085
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:31:14.085 --> 01:31:14.355
All right.

01:31:14.355 --> 01:31:14.475
But

01:31:14.475 --> 01:31:14.476
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:31:14.475 --> 01:31:17.235
on the other hand, I can't be
against totally against medication

01:31:17.235 --> 01:31:18.825
because one little medication.

01:31:19.125 --> 01:31:20.475
It changed my life.

01:31:20.535 --> 01:31:20.955
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:31:20.955 --> 01:31:22.250
And I, this is so, and that,

01:31:22.270 --> 01:31:22.271
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:31:22.270 --> 01:31:26.505
and this is where as I'd recommend
reading this, I'd rather I, not that

01:31:26.595 --> 01:31:29.640
I'm not just saying I wanna sell
books, but I think it's important

01:31:30.585 --> 01:31:32.205
that they read thinking of pictures,

01:31:32.535 --> 01:31:32.835
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:31:32.835 --> 01:31:38.275
It, it just seems that there is
so little moderation in the drugs.

01:31:38.635 --> 01:31:38.636
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:31:38.635 --> 01:31:40.855
Well, there's things where
there's no thought went into it.

01:31:40.855 --> 01:31:44.155
Like, you talk to the parents,
I said, why'd you do this drug?

01:31:44.605 --> 01:31:47.275
Or they might give out three
drugs or two drugs at a time.

01:31:48.385 --> 01:31:51.625
You try one thing at a
time and see what it does.

01:31:52.285 --> 01:31:54.505
Rupert Isaacson: Why do
you think pediatricians are

01:31:54.505 --> 01:31:55.945
giving out so many drugs?

01:31:56.485 --> 01:31:57.685
Because they must know the risks.

01:31:58.075 --> 01:31:58.076
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:31:58.075 --> 01:32:02.095
The, the parents call 'em and they
just wish that they'd go away.

01:32:02.095 --> 01:32:05.635
And yeah, it's kind of shocking sometimes.

01:32:05.635 --> 01:32:08.995
The lack of thought that goes into it.

01:32:09.385 --> 01:32:09.475
Mm-hmm.

01:32:09.475 --> 01:32:10.945
He's on seven drugs.

01:32:11.275 --> 01:32:11.635
Alright.

01:32:11.635 --> 01:32:12.415
Why this one?

01:32:12.415 --> 01:32:13.255
Why that one?

01:32:13.520 --> 01:32:13.810
Yeah.

01:32:17.540 --> 01:32:17.780
Okay.

01:32:17.785 --> 01:32:22.950
Well, on the other hand, on the other
hand you take your antipsychotics in some

01:32:22.950 --> 01:32:28.520
cases where there is very, very severe
sensory oversensitivity, a very tiny

01:32:28.520 --> 01:32:34.610
dose of risperidol risperidol, very tiny
dose, way, way under star dose works.

01:32:35.480 --> 01:32:39.320
Now let's talk about sensory
stuff, like, things that make

01:32:39.320 --> 01:32:42.500
noise like a vacuum cleaner.

01:32:42.500 --> 01:32:42.590
Mm-hmm.

01:32:42.830 --> 01:32:47.330
If the child turns on the thing that makes
noise, they can often get to tolerate it,

01:32:48.480 --> 01:32:50.065
Rupert Isaacson: Because they have
the agency and the choice where

01:32:50.065 --> 01:32:50.066
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:32:50.065 --> 01:32:51.265
they control it.

01:32:51.775 --> 01:32:56.065
A thing that makes noise beeping
a car horn, anything that makes

01:32:56.065 --> 01:33:02.635
noise when you turn it on horse
clippers, they turn it on,

01:33:02.965 --> 01:33:03.805
Rupert Isaacson: the leaf blower.

01:33:04.285 --> 01:33:04.375
Right.

01:33:04.585 --> 01:33:05.155
Sleeve floor.

01:33:05.215 --> 01:33:05.216
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:05.215 --> 01:33:06.235
That's another example.

01:33:06.235 --> 01:33:06.295
Yeah.

01:33:06.505 --> 01:33:06.705
Yeah.

01:33:06.705 --> 01:33:09.925
And I've seen that go from
feared thing to favorite toy.

01:33:10.585 --> 01:33:10.855
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:33:14.155 --> 01:33:14.455
Okay.

01:33:14.545 --> 01:33:15.805
Gonna add that to the list.

01:33:15.865 --> 01:33:15.866
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:15.865 --> 01:33:16.105
Yeah.

01:33:17.245 --> 01:33:18.265
Rupert Isaacson: Turning on,

01:33:18.985 --> 01:33:18.986
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:18.985 --> 01:33:20.875
let them turn on the noisy things.

01:33:20.880 --> 01:33:21.350
Rupert Isaacson: The noisy thing.

01:33:21.505 --> 01:33:21.655
The other

01:33:21.655 --> 01:33:21.656
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:21.655 --> 01:33:23.935
thing is don't wear
headphones all the time.

01:33:24.145 --> 01:33:24.355
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:33:25.045 --> 01:33:25.046
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:25.045 --> 01:33:26.875
It'll make sound sensitivity worse.

01:33:26.875 --> 01:33:26.876
Mm-hmm.

01:33:27.030 --> 01:33:29.245
They can have 'em with them for control.

01:33:29.245 --> 01:33:30.265
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:33:30.685 --> 01:33:30.686
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:30.685 --> 01:33:31.645
But try not to wear them.

01:33:31.645 --> 01:33:34.765
You can have 'em with you,
but try not to wear 'em.

01:33:35.425 --> 01:33:35.755
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:33:35.755 --> 01:33:37.885
So we've added seven.

01:33:38.665 --> 01:33:38.666
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:38.665 --> 01:33:38.995
Yeah.

01:33:39.155 --> 01:33:39.995
Rupert Isaacson: For sensory stuff.

01:33:39.995 --> 01:33:43.505
Let them have control and agency
over the noisy, scary stuff.

01:33:43.595 --> 01:33:43.596
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:33:43.595 --> 01:33:43.715
Yeah.

01:33:43.805 --> 01:33:45.635
Where they can turn that noise on and off.

01:33:45.935 --> 01:33:48.575
Now obviously they can't turn
a horse's Winnie on and off.

01:33:48.935 --> 01:33:49.205
Rupert Isaacson: No.

01:33:49.205 --> 01:33:52.205
But interestingly we went through
that with Rowan, with my son.

01:33:52.595 --> 01:33:52.625
Okay.

01:33:52.625 --> 01:33:55.115
And you know, where we went
through that is was in Mongolia.

01:33:55.205 --> 01:33:59.825
So when, of course we were working
with the horses at home, the horses

01:33:59.825 --> 01:34:01.535
didn't Winnie much because there.

01:34:01.880 --> 01:34:03.320
Herd was very close together.

01:34:03.325 --> 01:34:03.755
They didn't Yeah.

01:34:03.755 --> 01:34:05.150
They don't to call each other.

01:34:05.540 --> 01:34:11.090
When we went to Mongolia, the horses wined
all the time because they were calling

01:34:11.090 --> 01:34:14.660
to each other across big distances, and
it really freaked him out to begin with.

01:34:14.990 --> 01:34:17.850
And I had to it took me a while
to piece this together because

01:34:17.850 --> 01:34:19.380
he wa he was semi verbal.

01:34:19.800 --> 01:34:22.500
And then when I realized that was what
was going on, I, I kept saying this

01:34:22.500 --> 01:34:25.230
thing of horses, just horses saying
hello, it's just horses saying hello.

01:34:26.160 --> 01:34:27.840
After a while, it became fine.

01:34:28.280 --> 01:34:36.670
But there was about a 10 day really
awkward and difficult period which I had

01:34:36.670 --> 01:34:41.200
not seen coming because our horses at
home really didn't win any much, you know?

01:34:41.590 --> 01:34:46.780
So what's your, but he did, he did
absolutely learn to tolerate it.

01:34:46.780 --> 01:34:46.840
Yeah.

01:34:46.840 --> 01:34:51.160
And then it became not a thing again.

01:34:51.310 --> 01:34:52.750
Is it just about small doses?

01:34:53.650 --> 01:34:55.570
Doing things, letting things
happen in small doses.

01:34:55.660 --> 01:34:55.661
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:34:55.660 --> 01:34:58.860
Well, and they, they but the
one thing that is in a lot of

01:34:58.860 --> 01:35:00.840
situations, if they can control it.

01:35:00.840 --> 01:35:00.930
Mm-hmm.

01:35:01.235 --> 01:35:01.595
Rupert Isaacson: See, another

01:35:01.595 --> 01:35:01.596
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:35:01.595 --> 01:35:03.555
thing to do is make an
audio recording of money.

01:35:03.555 --> 01:35:03.875
You can make

01:35:03.875 --> 01:35:04.635
Rupert Isaacson: an audio recording.

01:35:04.710 --> 01:35:05.040
Right.

01:35:05.100 --> 01:35:05.940
And it has to be a high

01:35:05.940 --> 01:35:05.941
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:35:05.940 --> 01:35:08.880
quality audio recording with
all the nasty, high frequencies.

01:35:09.600 --> 01:35:09.900
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:10.710 --> 01:35:11.370
Makes sense.

01:35:12.060 --> 01:35:12.450
Okay.

01:35:12.810 --> 01:35:18.260
And then the final thing we've got here
is number eight is balancing stuff.

01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:22.220
So in your playground, in your,
just anything you can get that's

01:35:22.220 --> 01:35:24.200
balancing for the vestibular system.

01:35:24.200 --> 01:35:24.920
For the cerebellum.

01:35:25.460 --> 01:35:25.461
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:35:25.460 --> 01:35:25.820
Yeah.

01:35:26.390 --> 01:35:27.110
Rupert Isaacson: Put that in there.

01:35:27.680 --> 01:35:27.681
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:35:27.680 --> 01:35:27.830
Yeah.

01:35:27.835 --> 01:35:29.960
And you, and of course you're balancing,
when you're on a horse, you're

01:35:29.960 --> 01:35:30.560
Rupert Isaacson: balancing

01:35:31.010 --> 01:35:31.011
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:35:31.010 --> 01:35:31.100
mm-hmm.

01:35:31.100 --> 01:35:31.101
Mm-hmm.

01:35:31.106 --> 01:35:31.430
Absolutely.

01:35:31.430 --> 01:35:33.740
You have rhythm and balancing
stimulates the cerebellum

01:35:36.200 --> 01:35:42.020
Rupert Isaacson: because one of
the things I'm often urging equine

01:35:42.020 --> 01:35:46.850
practitioners to do is think beyond
the horse because the kid may, may

01:35:46.850 --> 01:35:51.110
or may not wanna ride today, even if
they wanted to ride on Tuesday and.

01:35:51.325 --> 01:35:55.580
Even if they love the horse every time
they come, what tools are you giving

01:35:55.580 --> 01:35:59.900
to the family to take home that they
can do in their living room or in a

01:35:59.900 --> 01:36:01.790
playground or some other situation?

01:36:01.790 --> 01:36:01.791
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:01.790 --> 01:36:05.090
Well, things like getting, okay, you may
not have a vacuum cleaner at the stable,

01:36:05.600 --> 01:36:09.590
but then that, but then when they, some
other noisy stuff, you let 'em turn

01:36:09.620 --> 01:36:11.540
on and all the leaf blower, let's say.

01:36:11.840 --> 01:36:12.110
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:36:12.170 --> 01:36:12.260
Then

01:36:12.260 --> 01:36:12.261
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:12.260 --> 01:36:14.810
when they go back home, they can try
that with the vacuum cleaner or the hair.

01:36:14.810 --> 01:36:15.080
Absolutely.

01:36:15.980 --> 01:36:17.390
Two other noisy things.

01:36:18.530 --> 01:36:22.010
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
we encourage people to do, and we,

01:36:22.340 --> 01:36:26.060
we had great success with this,
was hang swings from your ceiling.

01:36:26.910 --> 01:36:28.770
Let the kids swing in the room at home.

01:36:28.770 --> 01:36:29.850
'cause the weather's often bad.

01:36:30.210 --> 01:36:31.110
You may not be outside.

01:36:31.110 --> 01:36:31.170
Yeah.

01:36:31.170 --> 01:36:31.230
Now

01:36:31.770 --> 01:36:31.771
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:31.770 --> 01:36:33.810
a lot of, a lot of families
actually have, have done that.

01:36:33.900 --> 01:36:34.170
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:36:34.710 --> 01:36:34.711
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:34.710 --> 01:36:36.000
That's quite common.

01:36:36.360 --> 01:36:37.710
Rupert Isaacson: Worked massively for us.

01:36:37.710 --> 01:36:37.800
The

01:36:37.800 --> 01:36:37.801
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:37.800 --> 01:36:40.320
thing that that, that I thought
was so interesting when I read Bill

01:36:40.320 --> 01:36:47.060
Gates's book was the the selling
stuff and the party hostess.

01:36:47.855 --> 01:36:47.945
Rupert Isaacson: That

01:36:48.995 --> 01:36:48.996
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:48.995 --> 01:36:50.945
we both did the same things.

01:36:52.985 --> 01:36:53.255
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:36:53.345 --> 01:36:56.255
And I guess one could so easily
do that with like holidays.

01:36:56.645 --> 01:36:56.646
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:36:56.645 --> 01:37:01.035
And then I had, I went in children's
playgroup, organized playgroup in the

01:37:01.035 --> 01:37:08.565
summer where they might have, you know,
eight or nine kids and we'd, they have

01:37:08.565 --> 01:37:13.665
an organized softball game or another
time we went on a nature walk, you know?

01:37:13.845 --> 01:37:14.445
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:37:15.645 --> 01:37:18.015
I I'm just thinking like
today's Easter Monday, right?

01:37:18.115 --> 01:37:19.105
Easter Sunday, actually.

01:37:19.205 --> 01:37:19.475
Yeah.

01:37:19.685 --> 01:37:24.095
You know, one could so easily
do themed parties at one's barn.

01:37:24.095 --> 01:37:27.805
A lot of people do your Easter thing,
your Halloween thing, your 4th of

01:37:27.805 --> 01:37:29.705
July thing, your Christmas thing.

01:37:30.275 --> 01:37:32.645
This is the kids can't
be the greeters and Yeah.

01:37:33.365 --> 01:37:33.366
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:37:33.365 --> 01:37:37.955
Well you see, and I'm realizing
how important those parties were

01:37:38.105 --> 01:37:38.405
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:37:38.410 --> 01:37:38.600
Where

01:37:38.705 --> 01:37:38.706
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:37:38.705 --> 01:37:39.875
you had to greet people.

01:37:39.875 --> 01:37:40.565
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:37:40.655 --> 01:37:40.715
You

01:37:40.720 --> 01:37:40.721
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:37:40.720 --> 01:37:42.575
had, we, we were taught
Say please and thank you.

01:37:42.575 --> 01:37:44.975
Like if it was in the store,
you were checking out.

01:37:45.515 --> 01:37:48.905
Mother would say, you
forgot to say thank you.

01:37:49.445 --> 01:37:52.235
She'd say, when we were getting
ready to leave, you forgot to

01:37:52.235 --> 01:37:54.365
say, and then I'd go, thank you.

01:37:55.205 --> 01:37:55.355
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:37:55.955 --> 01:37:55.956
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:37:55.955 --> 01:37:59.885
But you see that's fifties
upbringing and, and I think we need

01:37:59.885 --> 01:38:01.265
to be doing more of that kind of

01:38:01.265 --> 01:38:01.445
Rupert Isaacson: stuff.

01:38:01.450 --> 01:38:02.465
I, I couldn't agree more.

01:38:02.465 --> 01:38:02.945
And it's not

01:38:02.960 --> 01:38:02.961
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:38:02.960 --> 01:38:04.445
difficult stuff to do.

01:38:04.655 --> 01:38:05.435
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's not.

01:38:05.485 --> 01:38:08.245
But it has to be done without shame,
so it doesn't become a fear thing.

01:38:08.695 --> 01:38:13.975
I remember when Rowan was verbal,
becoming really verbal, and of course,

01:38:13.975 --> 01:38:16.375
you know, you go through that fa
phase where you're like, oh my gosh,

01:38:16.375 --> 01:38:20.515
there's, you know, I'll take anything
even if it's grouchy and negative.

01:38:20.905 --> 01:38:25.445
And then I realized at a certain point
oh gosh, he needs to learn courtesy.

01:38:26.205 --> 01:38:26.985
How do I do that?

01:38:27.405 --> 01:38:30.235
And I came up with this thing
where I said, Tim, hey do you

01:38:30.235 --> 01:38:31.435
wanna learn a word of power?

01:38:32.065 --> 01:38:33.205
It's actually three words.

01:38:33.495 --> 01:38:35.235
If you say this pretty much.

01:38:35.805 --> 01:38:38.055
No one will be able to say
no to you over most things.

01:38:38.775 --> 01:38:39.915
And he said, whoa, whoa, what's that?

01:38:39.945 --> 01:38:43.005
And I said, it's this,
it's, could you possibly?

01:38:43.815 --> 01:38:45.435
And I said, look, I'll prove it to you.

01:38:45.825 --> 01:38:47.615
And I turned to his teacher.

01:38:47.615 --> 01:38:49.535
We were homeschooling, but
we were doing it in a team.

01:38:49.535 --> 01:38:53.175
So his main teacher, Jenny, and I said
Jenny stand on your head and do a fart

01:38:53.175 --> 01:38:54.645
because we always use toilet humor, right?

01:38:55.275 --> 01:38:57.375
And Jenny went, no, I don't wanna do that.

01:38:57.705 --> 01:39:01.785
And I said, okay, Jenny, please
stand on your head and do a fart.

01:39:01.785 --> 01:39:03.795
She said, no, Rupert, I, I've
told you I don't wanna do that.

01:39:04.065 --> 01:39:05.025
I said, I looked at Ron.

01:39:05.025 --> 01:39:06.225
I said, now watch this.

01:39:06.225 --> 01:39:10.755
I said, Jenny, could you possibly stand
on your head and do a fart, please?

01:39:10.905 --> 01:39:12.465
And she went, well, if
you put it like that.

01:39:12.525 --> 01:39:14.805
And of course, she went up
against the wall and made a noise.

01:39:15.465 --> 01:39:18.645
We did things like this for
about two weeks and about.

01:39:19.230 --> 01:39:20.310
Bang on two weeks.

01:39:20.310 --> 01:39:23.340
He came downstairs one morning
and said, dad, could you

01:39:23.340 --> 01:39:25.050
possibly get me a glass of water?

01:39:25.380 --> 01:39:26.400
And it stayed.

01:39:26.700 --> 01:39:30.240
And he kind of learned this courtly
way of going through the world.

01:39:30.245 --> 01:39:30.465
He

01:39:30.465 --> 01:39:30.466
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:39:30.465 --> 01:39:33.185
learn it and you see in these
things we were taught, we were

01:39:33.185 --> 01:39:34.105
taught please, and thank you.

01:39:34.105 --> 01:39:34.425
Mm-hmm.

01:39:35.325 --> 01:39:39.370
And and, and, and then the party
hostess thing, that's something that

01:39:39.370 --> 01:39:43.780
in the fifties and see Bill Gates is
eight years younger than me, so that

01:39:43.780 --> 01:39:46.050
would've been very early sixties.

01:39:46.050 --> 01:39:46.080
Mm.

01:39:47.040 --> 01:39:48.270
These things were done.

01:39:48.595 --> 01:39:48.885
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:39:50.085 --> 01:39:50.086
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:39:50.085 --> 01:39:53.790
And, and then there's that scene where I
go up and I ask the editor for his card,

01:39:54.210 --> 01:39:59.490
well, all that party hostess stuff I had
to do, I wasn't afraid to go up and ask

01:39:59.490 --> 01:40:01.380
for the card and ask for it really nicely.

01:40:01.710 --> 01:40:02.190
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:40:02.495 --> 01:40:02.915
Mm-hmm.

01:40:02.920 --> 01:40:03.180
Like

01:40:03.180 --> 01:40:03.181
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:03.180 --> 01:40:05.040
I was taught to greet
people at the parties.

01:40:05.520 --> 01:40:05.910
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:40:06.990 --> 01:40:07.260
Yes.

01:40:07.260 --> 01:40:07.605
And if we could, and

01:40:07.610 --> 01:40:07.611
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:07.610 --> 01:40:10.500
realizing just how important that was

01:40:10.650 --> 01:40:13.050
Rupert Isaacson: and if we
could set up a sort of play, Mr.

01:40:13.050 --> 01:40:13.410
And Mrs.

01:40:13.410 --> 01:40:15.690
Grouch role play.

01:40:16.125 --> 01:40:18.975
Maybe that's again, our
retirees were helping us out.

01:40:18.975 --> 01:40:19.035
Yeah.

01:40:19.035 --> 01:40:19.036
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:19.035 --> 01:40:22.815
After the, all the nice people and
Right once in while Get a garage.

01:40:22.995 --> 01:40:23.445
Well, yeah.

01:40:23.445 --> 01:40:26.385
You'd go up to house and they weren't
interested and they'd shut the door.

01:40:26.760 --> 01:40:27.855
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

01:40:28.365 --> 01:40:30.195
Sort of a safe way to

01:40:30.590 --> 01:40:30.591
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:30.590 --> 01:40:31.290
and develop.

01:40:31.290 --> 01:40:34.065
And he walked around the neighborhood
and then she'd take him to other

01:40:34.065 --> 01:40:38.535
neighborhoods and she'd stop out in
the street and he'd go up to the house.

01:40:38.895 --> 01:40:39.585
She's right there.

01:40:39.585 --> 01:40:40.785
She can see the door.

01:40:40.790 --> 01:40:40.930
Yeah.

01:40:41.355 --> 01:40:41.415
Yeah.

01:40:41.445 --> 01:40:42.855
But he has to go up there.

01:40:43.245 --> 01:40:47.385
Bill Gates had to go up there
and ask the, you know, the people

01:40:47.385 --> 01:40:48.975
wanted to buy the mixed nuts or not.

01:40:49.160 --> 01:40:49.450
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:40:50.230 --> 01:40:50.520
Yeah.

01:40:51.680 --> 01:40:51.900
No.

01:40:51.900 --> 01:40:53.385
And we can do so much of this stuff.

01:40:53.385 --> 01:40:55.100
It up therapeutic riding barn because, and

01:40:55.100 --> 01:40:55.101
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:55.100 --> 01:40:56.020
it's simple stuff to do.

01:40:56.020 --> 01:40:56.625
We, we can set

01:40:56.625 --> 01:40:57.645
Rupert Isaacson: these situations up.

01:40:57.645 --> 01:40:58.545
Yeah, we can.

01:40:58.875 --> 01:40:58.876
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:40:58.875 --> 01:41:01.005
Oh, and I think that would
be really, really good.

01:41:01.425 --> 01:41:01.695
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:41:03.285 --> 01:41:03.286
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:41:03.285 --> 01:41:04.995
I think that'd be really, really good.

01:41:05.595 --> 01:41:08.745
Well, we've now been al we're
coming up on two hours now.

01:41:08.835 --> 01:41:09.315
Rupert Isaacson: We are.

01:41:10.245 --> 01:41:13.605
Is there anything you'd like to add or
do you feel we've covered it this time?

01:41:13.605 --> 01:41:13.750
No, I think we've

01:41:13.790 --> 01:41:13.791
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:41:13.790 --> 01:41:15.070
talked about a lot of good things.

01:41:16.065 --> 01:41:19.155
And, and these are things that helped me.

01:41:20.295 --> 01:41:20.325
Mm.

01:41:20.325 --> 01:41:24.945
And, and I, you know, you've got things
that maybe some of your therapeutic

01:41:24.945 --> 01:41:27.855
writing places can start doing some
of these things, but I think it's been

01:41:27.855 --> 01:41:29.655
really important to tap into the retirees

01:41:30.165 --> 01:41:30.285
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:41:30.315 --> 01:41:30.316
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:41:30.315 --> 01:41:31.455
For the little kids.

01:41:32.235 --> 01:41:34.635
And then teaching older kids skills.

01:41:35.210 --> 01:41:35.630
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:41:35.870 --> 01:41:35.871
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:41:35.870 --> 01:41:38.505
I think a lot of retirees
would really enjoy doing this.

01:41:39.015 --> 01:41:39.405
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:41:40.215 --> 01:41:40.905
I so agree.

01:41:41.505 --> 01:41:42.615
And it's so interesting.

01:41:42.615 --> 01:41:45.705
You know, we, we've, we've talked here
about the good effects of the horse,

01:41:45.705 --> 01:41:47.745
obviously the vestibular system.

01:41:47.805 --> 01:41:50.025
What happens in the brain, what
happens in the body, great.

01:41:50.565 --> 01:41:55.245
But most of what we've talked about
is actually not with the horse.

01:41:55.245 --> 01:41:59.625
That there needs to be this whole
other universe around what's going on.

01:41:59.985 --> 01:41:59.986
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:41:59.985 --> 01:42:02.415
Well you see the other thing,
when I took care of the horses,

01:42:02.415 --> 01:42:03.645
there's a responsibility.

01:42:03.795 --> 01:42:04.095
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:04.455 --> 01:42:04.456
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:04.455 --> 01:42:07.305
I had to make sure I fed each
horse the correct amount of feed.

01:42:07.310 --> 01:42:07.600
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:42:08.235 --> 01:42:08.236
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:08.235 --> 01:42:11.235
And this horse got one scoop, this
one got one and a half scoops.

01:42:11.415 --> 01:42:11.685
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:12.195 --> 01:42:12.196
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:12.195 --> 01:42:12.645
And.

01:42:13.410 --> 01:42:14.670
And I had to do that.

01:42:14.670 --> 01:42:15.060
Right.

01:42:15.060 --> 01:42:19.740
I had to put them in and out of
the barn and clean the stalls.

01:42:21.750 --> 01:42:23.820
Rupert Isaacson: At what age
were you when you were given

01:42:23.820 --> 01:42:25.350
that level of responsibility?

01:42:25.355 --> 01:42:25.585
15.

01:42:25.655 --> 01:42:26.145
15.

01:42:26.150 --> 01:42:26.580
15?

01:42:26.580 --> 01:42:26.880
Yeah.

01:42:26.880 --> 01:42:27.180
Yeah.

01:42:27.180 --> 01:42:27.210
I

01:42:27.210 --> 01:42:27.211
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:27.210 --> 01:42:27.745
was 15.

01:42:27.870 --> 01:42:29.730
Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't be doing
that with my little ones at this

01:42:29.730 --> 01:42:31.470
point, but what I do do is I was

01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:31.681
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:32.490
15 right.

01:42:32.640 --> 01:42:33.510
When I was doing that.

01:42:33.900 --> 01:42:34.140
Yeah.

01:42:34.140 --> 01:42:37.320
Now I watched some kids come up
to our riding center and they

01:42:37.320 --> 01:42:40.080
were maybe third and fourth grade
and just pick up some horse poop.

01:42:40.230 --> 01:42:40.465
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

01:42:40.500 --> 01:42:40.800
Totally

01:42:41.340 --> 01:42:41.341
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:41.340 --> 01:42:43.650
supervised and they were having a time.

01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:44.010
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:42:44.105 --> 01:42:44.910
I, I have totally

01:42:44.910 --> 01:42:44.911
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:44.910 --> 01:42:46.410
told them what the
level of responsibility.

01:42:46.410 --> 01:42:47.460
I know I was 15,

01:42:47.670 --> 01:42:50.580
Rupert Isaacson: but there still
is, even for the little ones, a

01:42:50.580 --> 01:42:52.200
small level of responsibility.

01:42:52.200 --> 01:42:52.380
Right.

01:42:52.380 --> 01:42:57.510
One has to start young, but just
within the range of what's reasonable.

01:42:57.630 --> 01:42:57.900
Yeah.

01:42:58.290 --> 01:42:58.291
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:42:58.290 --> 01:43:01.590
Well, and then I made me a little nervous
because they, the kids going Right.

01:43:01.590 --> 01:43:02.490
Too close to the horse's feet.

01:43:02.490 --> 01:43:04.830
I said, let's take the horse
out of the pen when we do

01:43:04.830 --> 01:43:04.920
Rupert Isaacson: this.

01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:05.370
Yes.

01:43:05.745 --> 01:43:05.746
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:05.745 --> 01:43:07.440
I, I suggested that to them.

01:43:07.500 --> 01:43:07.770
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:43:08.550 --> 01:43:08.551
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:08.550 --> 01:43:10.230
Let's just take the horse out.

01:43:10.560 --> 01:43:10.855
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:43:10.860 --> 01:43:10.861
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:10.860 --> 01:43:12.180
And these were not stalls.

01:43:12.390 --> 01:43:14.910
They were like run pens.

01:43:15.210 --> 01:43:15.810
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:43:16.440 --> 01:43:17.310
Which is what we have.

01:43:17.460 --> 01:43:17.730
Yeah.

01:43:17.820 --> 01:43:17.821
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:17.820 --> 01:43:17.970
Yeah.

01:43:17.970 --> 01:43:20.250
And I said, let's just remove
the horse from the pen.

01:43:20.250 --> 01:43:20.550
Absolutely.

01:43:20.550 --> 01:43:22.530
Because these were little kids,
they were like third grade

01:43:22.800 --> 01:43:23.730
Rupert Isaacson: and then
they'll get run over.

01:43:23.910 --> 01:43:24.330
Absolutely.

01:43:24.330 --> 01:43:24.331
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:24.330 --> 01:43:25.380
8-year-old kids.

01:43:27.780 --> 01:43:28.260
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.

01:43:28.530 --> 01:43:34.440
Well, listen Temple as ever, it's
been, you know, an honor and also just

01:43:34.470 --> 01:43:37.230
massively useful to be mentored by you.

01:43:37.280 --> 01:43:37.281
Dr. Temple Grandin:

01:43:37.280 --> 01:43:38.360
Alright, that's fine.

01:43:38.420 --> 01:43:39.110
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

01:43:39.600 --> 01:43:42.720
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01:43:43.260 --> 01:43:48.160
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