1
00:00:01,728 --> 00:00:03,333
What the wits were right before.

2
00:00:03,966 --> 00:00:04,887
beautiful.

3
00:00:04,887 --> 00:00:13,951
Well, Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to join me for what is bound to be a very
engaging, entertaining and informative conversation.

4
00:00:14,272 --> 00:00:21,786
I know that we have a lot of alignment on many different philosophies, approaches to
leadership and just communication in general.

5
00:00:21,786 --> 00:00:31,021
So really excited to dive into all of the, you know, the experiences that you've had, your
journey and also bring in some of our mutual heritage.

6
00:00:31,540 --> 00:00:42,901
both being Scottish, you I think there's a lot that we can share in different ways that
we've been raised in communication, yes, experiences and expectations.

7
00:00:42,901 --> 00:00:51,681
So before we dive into all of that, I would love if you could just give our listeners a
little bit of a summary about you, who you are, your journey to this point, and some of

8
00:00:51,681 --> 00:00:53,093
the cool things you're up to right

9
00:00:54,008 --> 00:00:54,468
Beautiful.

10
00:00:54,468 --> 00:00:55,658
First, Kendra, thanks for having me.

11
00:00:55,658 --> 00:00:56,290
This is gonna be fun.

12
00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:56,751
Let's do it.

13
00:00:56,751 --> 00:00:58,402
Let's have a good conversation.

14
00:00:58,702 --> 00:00:59,653
Background on myself.

15
00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:02,096
So currently I am VP of marketing at Markawake.

16
00:01:02,096 --> 00:01:05,749
We're an agency out of Atlanta, got about 60 people.

17
00:01:05,749 --> 00:01:07,694
Started with them almost eight years ago.

18
00:01:07,694 --> 00:01:08,872
It just five of us.

19
00:01:08,872 --> 00:01:15,618
We've grown so much the last couple of years, which has been incredible, but really
focused on all digital, which I'm sure we'll talk about here in a second.

20
00:01:15,726 --> 00:01:17,706
Sandbox like playground wise.

21
00:01:17,706 --> 00:01:20,726
also am an owner of a e-commerce brand called Richmond sports.

22
00:01:20,726 --> 00:01:22,106
We do golf related items.

23
00:01:22,106 --> 00:01:24,226
I'm partnered with three of my best friends on that.

24
00:01:24,226 --> 00:01:25,326
It has been so fun.

25
00:01:25,326 --> 00:01:28,326
So we've been doing that for about five years, which has been incredible.

26
00:01:28,326 --> 00:01:30,566
And then I don't know, just like doing other fun stuff.

27
00:01:30,566 --> 00:01:35,386
Got a great wife, got married not too long ago, um, picked up jujitsu last year.

28
00:01:35,386 --> 00:01:39,686
So that's been taking most of my time casually, you know, just get my butt beat all the
time.

29
00:01:39,786 --> 00:01:42,447
Uh, and I'm sure we'll kind of go into background, but.

30
00:01:42,447 --> 00:01:44,567
really like the creative side of things.

31
00:01:44,567 --> 00:01:46,447
You know, I've been doing art my whole life.

32
00:01:46,447 --> 00:01:51,567
Worked in a kitchen for many years, which I'd love to go into, but loved food, clearly.

33
00:01:51,567 --> 00:01:55,307
And that really helped kind of dictate how I work.

34
00:01:55,387 --> 00:01:59,895
last decade, deep in the business space, deep in marketing, and just fell in love with it.

35
00:01:59,895 --> 00:02:00,365
Amazing.

36
00:02:00,365 --> 00:02:00,815
Wow.

37
00:02:00,815 --> 00:02:03,847
You hit us with a lot of, there are a lot of moving parts there.

38
00:02:03,847 --> 00:02:06,888
You are, yeah, yeah, a dynamic person.

39
00:02:06,888 --> 00:02:15,931
And I have to say after this, I need the link to the golf store because as an avid golfer,
I feel like, yes.

40
00:02:16,872 --> 00:02:17,572
my God.

41
00:02:17,572 --> 00:02:18,142
Thank you.

42
00:02:18,142 --> 00:02:19,863
Yeah.

43
00:02:19,873 --> 00:02:20,313
okay.

44
00:02:20,313 --> 00:02:21,054
Best day ever.

45
00:02:21,054 --> 00:02:21,694
Wow.

46
00:02:21,694 --> 00:02:22,434
All right.

47
00:02:22,434 --> 00:02:23,515
Let's cancel this.

48
00:02:23,515 --> 00:02:25,085
We're turning the episode off.

49
00:02:25,085 --> 00:02:25,716
done here.

50
00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:26,216
Yes.

51
00:02:26,216 --> 00:02:27,436
I think so.

52
00:02:28,116 --> 00:02:29,037
Yes.

53
00:02:29,037 --> 00:02:29,705
Yeah.

54
00:02:29,705 --> 00:02:30,165
Awesome.

55
00:02:30,165 --> 00:02:31,826
mean, see, this is the power of conversation.

56
00:02:31,826 --> 00:02:34,827
You don't know what you don't know until you start to draw it out.

57
00:02:34,827 --> 00:02:39,312
So golf, jujitsu, kitchen work.

58
00:02:39,312 --> 00:02:41,403
Obviously you've worked in hospitality.

59
00:02:41,403 --> 00:02:43,275
Like that all makes sense.

60
00:02:43,275 --> 00:02:44,115
Yes.

61
00:02:44,115 --> 00:02:49,598
Which it sounds like is all just ebb and flowing to where you're at now.

62
00:02:50,279 --> 00:02:58,885
So talk to me a little bit about with all of those interests, hobbies and let's call them
very, very impressive skills.

63
00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:00,678
Why marketing?

64
00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:05,192
Ooh, okay, let me back up a tad.

65
00:03:05,192 --> 00:03:06,913
So after Kitchen World, right?

66
00:03:06,913 --> 00:03:11,192
I worked in sales, you know, it was kind of the pop out of college, studied political
science.

67
00:03:11,192 --> 00:03:12,846
I was just reading like the Salem witch trials.

68
00:03:12,846 --> 00:03:14,197
I didn't know what I wanted to do, right?

69
00:03:14,197 --> 00:03:15,858
I just liked reading about history.

70
00:03:15,858 --> 00:03:19,450
So, you know, with no hard skills at all, what did me and all my friends do?

71
00:03:19,450 --> 00:03:20,365
We jumped into sales.

72
00:03:20,365 --> 00:03:21,952
It was like, cool, we're friendly.

73
00:03:21,952 --> 00:03:22,962
We're all fraternity together.

74
00:03:22,962 --> 00:03:24,083
Let's go sell some stuff.

75
00:03:24,083 --> 00:03:24,984
Loved it.

76
00:03:24,984 --> 00:03:25,424
Loved it.

77
00:03:25,424 --> 00:03:27,435
Did pharmaceutical sales for a long time.

78
00:03:27,435 --> 00:03:29,286
Did software sales.

79
00:03:29,528 --> 00:03:32,258
But there's just something different where I had this creativity.

80
00:03:32,258 --> 00:03:34,398
I always liked drawing and doing painting.

81
00:03:34,398 --> 00:03:36,220
I always liked making videos.

82
00:03:36,220 --> 00:03:41,791
So when I got the opportunity to start at Mark Wake, mean Brooke, the CEO, she really
pitched the idea and the vision.

83
00:03:41,791 --> 00:03:43,062
And obviously she got me, right?

84
00:03:43,062 --> 00:03:44,802
Like I've been there for eight years.

85
00:03:45,162 --> 00:03:50,324
The way it was kind of articulated was, okay, you're picking up the phone 100 times a day
making sales calls.

86
00:03:50,324 --> 00:03:53,895
Imagine if you could run an ad that reaches a million people with less work.

87
00:03:53,895 --> 00:03:57,806
And it was just like, okay, this is the coolest thing ever, right?

88
00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:03,211
I love making sure, love teaching people how to purchase things, but really just like, how
do I provide value to them?

89
00:04:03,211 --> 00:04:04,822
How do I entertain them?

90
00:04:04,862 --> 00:04:08,083
And I could do that a little bit in sales, but I could do that scale and marketing.

91
00:04:08,083 --> 00:04:14,586
So she brought me in, taught me, but that was really the most pivotal moment where I was
like, okay, marketing is the coolest thing ever.

92
00:04:14,706 --> 00:04:16,737
There's companies who were like, we don't need marketing.

93
00:04:16,737 --> 00:04:17,633
We just have sales teams.

94
00:04:17,633 --> 00:04:18,607
I'm like, okay, flip it.

95
00:04:18,607 --> 00:04:19,688
What if you're a B2C brand?

96
00:04:19,688 --> 00:04:21,003
Like you don't really need salespeople.

97
00:04:21,003 --> 00:04:24,679
I can market to you and really drive, drive sales that way.

98
00:04:24,679 --> 00:04:25,134
So.

99
00:04:25,134 --> 00:04:30,334
fell in love with it, fell in love with different tactics, whether that was SEO, really
like gamifying it.

100
00:04:30,334 --> 00:04:37,294
Granted SEO has changed so much in the last 10 years, but fell in love with ads, SEO,
social media, fell in love with design.

101
00:04:37,294 --> 00:04:40,094
So that was kind of the pivotal moment and I loved it, right?

102
00:04:40,414 --> 00:04:48,234
Like pharmaceutical sales were great, but just calling a hundred people every day, just
getting hung up on, I got people next to me in a different cubicle calling fax machines

103
00:04:48,234 --> 00:04:49,614
because they've got to their number, right?

104
00:04:49,614 --> 00:04:52,154
Like they're just, so was like, man, let's do marketing.

105
00:04:52,154 --> 00:04:55,168
And that's kind of, that's kind of the pivotal moment that changed it.

106
00:04:55,168 --> 00:04:58,362
And I felt for the first time in my life I had hard skills.

107
00:04:58,362 --> 00:05:06,832
Sales is a hard skill, I do believe it, but it's just a little different versus I can go
into your website, update it, and build you an ad that starts producing money really fast.

108
00:05:06,832 --> 00:05:08,242
I fell in love with that aspect of it.

109
00:05:08,242 --> 00:05:09,142
Wow.

110
00:05:09,142 --> 00:05:12,983
A couple of really, really key points that stood out to me there.

111
00:05:12,983 --> 00:05:17,284
First of all, kudos to your CEO, Brooke, for knowing the vision.

112
00:05:17,284 --> 00:05:18,004
Yeah.

113
00:05:18,004 --> 00:05:26,997
Knowing the vision, selling that, I have, I don't think I've ever heard marketing as being
described as sales to scale, at scale, I should say, right?

114
00:05:26,997 --> 00:05:29,198
That makes so much sense.

115
00:05:29,198 --> 00:05:33,619
Yes, you can pick up the phone and call a hundred people, or you can put out an ad that
reaches a thousand.

116
00:05:33,619 --> 00:05:34,629
So that...

117
00:05:34,721 --> 00:05:37,724
Yeah, something just clicked in my brain there where you said that.

118
00:05:38,186 --> 00:05:40,108
And I believe that's strong leadership too, right?

119
00:05:40,108 --> 00:05:43,433
Get people bought into the vision and you aligned with that.

120
00:05:43,433 --> 00:05:45,896
And eight years later, here you are.

121
00:05:45,896 --> 00:05:48,820
So pretty amazing stuff.

122
00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:49,720
Yeah.

123
00:05:50,163 --> 00:05:55,383
Well, have you noticed like, think about like the sales gurus right now, and I don't wanna
call them gurus, cause they're awesome.

124
00:05:55,383 --> 00:05:59,743
Like you got the Alex or Moesies, even if you wanna go a little bit weird, it's like the
Grant Card owns all of them.

125
00:05:59,743 --> 00:06:02,483
Like they're spending more time marketing than they are selling now, right?

126
00:06:02,483 --> 00:06:04,063
Like they're creating content videos.

127
00:06:04,063 --> 00:06:12,243
So it was just that different level of like even a modern day salesperson, I'm always
giving advice of like push LinkedIn content, create videos.

128
00:06:12,243 --> 00:06:14,476
it's like, selling's changed so much, but.

129
00:06:14,476 --> 00:06:19,049
You can go at a higher rate versus picking up the phone every day or going door to door
versus marketing.

130
00:06:19,049 --> 00:06:21,821
And again, to your point of vision setting, like I'm sure we're going to talk about this.

131
00:06:21,821 --> 00:06:24,343
That is half, if not more of leadership, right?

132
00:06:24,343 --> 00:06:27,275
It's, it's the understanding of why you're doing what you're doing.

133
00:06:27,275 --> 00:06:29,737
If they can cast that immediately, it was like, okay.

134
00:06:29,737 --> 00:06:33,590
And I'll tell you, I told Brooke when she was like, come work for me until you find your
dream job.

135
00:06:33,590 --> 00:06:35,661
I was like, I'll give you three months contract.

136
00:06:35,661 --> 00:06:37,254
Like I just want to come help you for a little bit.

137
00:06:37,254 --> 00:06:38,503
And I'm going to dip out.

138
00:06:38,503 --> 00:06:40,185
And she was like, no, you're doing six months.

139
00:06:40,185 --> 00:06:41,805
I was like, okay.

140
00:06:41,805 --> 00:06:42,146
Right.

141
00:06:42,146 --> 00:06:42,742
Like.

142
00:06:42,742 --> 00:06:43,724
marketing is kind of weird.

143
00:06:43,724 --> 00:06:44,797
What are we just running social ads?

144
00:06:44,797 --> 00:06:45,960
That was eight years ago.

145
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,818
So literally got me hook, lion, sinker, fell in love with it.

146
00:06:49,950 --> 00:06:52,470
no looking back and just we'll market till I'm

147
00:06:52,470 --> 00:06:53,833
yeah, wow.

148
00:06:53,833 --> 00:06:57,439
Six months, yes, turns into eight years.

149
00:06:57,481 --> 00:07:00,166
That's like, just come, drink.

150
00:07:00,166 --> 00:07:01,962
Come have one drink, right?

151
00:07:01,962 --> 00:07:04,164
that's, that is exactly what it was.

152
00:07:04,164 --> 00:07:05,425
And we worked together in the past.

153
00:07:05,425 --> 00:07:09,399
We had this crazy job where we worked for like Roku right when it came out.

154
00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:11,031
So me and her were traveling the country.

155
00:07:11,031 --> 00:07:12,812
We would go to like movies.

156
00:07:12,812 --> 00:07:18,257
We'd go to radio stations and movies, literally three months of us just traveling, talking
to people about Roku.

157
00:07:18,257 --> 00:07:20,079
This was like OG Roku.

158
00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:23,790
It had like Flappy Bird or whatever on the remote.

159
00:07:23,790 --> 00:07:25,890
So we worked together and we're like, love working together.

160
00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:29,530
That's kind when I fell in love with like, how do I even talk to people or like people in
the eyes?

161
00:07:29,530 --> 00:07:30,410
So did that.

162
00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:35,150
And then a couple of years later we met again and started doing Mark awake and it's been
incredible.

163
00:07:35,318 --> 00:07:37,009
incredible indeed.

164
00:07:37,009 --> 00:07:39,422
That's super awesome.

165
00:07:39,422 --> 00:07:50,742
I mean, obviously you've had some pivots, you've had some shifts, you've had some highs
and with every high there's some kind of valley that inevitably we all face.

166
00:07:50,742 --> 00:08:00,260
So what are some of the hurdles that you found, especially in moving through MarketWake
for eight years, you're now in a leadership role.

167
00:08:00,260 --> 00:08:01,645
What were some of the...

168
00:08:01,645 --> 00:08:05,001
if you wanna call them valleys or lessons that you learned along the way.

169
00:08:05,001 --> 00:08:05,822
Yeah.

170
00:08:06,342 --> 00:08:10,802
Man, I would say one big one was actually the last couple of years.

171
00:08:10,802 --> 00:08:15,282
We had just absolute ridiculous growth for the first couple of years and then it slowed
down a little bit.

172
00:08:15,282 --> 00:08:16,502
We still grew every year, right?

173
00:08:16,502 --> 00:08:22,422
So it's like, you know, we just had high expectations, but really kind of understanding
like, why aren't we growing at the rate we want to?

174
00:08:22,422 --> 00:08:24,942
So how do adjust what we're doing a little bit?

175
00:08:24,942 --> 00:08:27,462
Cause at end of day, it's like, how do I provide more value to my clients?

176
00:08:27,462 --> 00:08:30,082
And most of my clients are paying us to make them more money.

177
00:08:30,082 --> 00:08:31,202
Like let's not get it twisted.

178
00:08:31,202 --> 00:08:32,354
We're in marketing.

179
00:08:32,354 --> 00:08:36,156
You know, they don't, care about impressions, but those impressions have to lead to sales.

180
00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:46,582
So those, those hard times were figuring out like, okay, why is what I'm doing for one
client crushing it and one client, it's not working at all, which was very tough at first

181
00:08:46,582 --> 00:08:55,388
because you have these methodologies you're applying to 10, 20, 30 different clients and
certain industries, it works great and certain industries doesn't.

182
00:08:55,388 --> 00:08:59,590
So we really had to learn like a one size fits all just is never.

183
00:08:59,820 --> 00:09:00,050
Right?

184
00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:02,792
You can't just look at every client and be like, you need to run paid ads.

185
00:09:02,792 --> 00:09:04,753
You need to do SEO and you need to do social.

186
00:09:04,753 --> 00:09:05,013
Okay.

187
00:09:05,013 --> 00:09:05,673
What does that mean?

188
00:09:05,673 --> 00:09:06,254
Right?

189
00:09:06,254 --> 00:09:12,097
So we really had to look at if we're not growing at the rate we're wanting to, how are we
going to provide more value to our clients?

190
00:09:12,097 --> 00:09:16,700
And then we had to kind of adjust what we're doing, which is, which is the purpose of
messing up.

191
00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:16,920
Right?

192
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,230
Like that's the, that's the fun part.

193
00:09:18,230 --> 00:09:20,812
Once you have that in your mindset, you're like, okay, this isn't a bad thing.

194
00:09:20,812 --> 00:09:22,123
This is a good thing.

195
00:09:22,123 --> 00:09:25,264
So I would say that was one of the pivotal changes.

196
00:09:25,264 --> 00:09:28,426
And then the leadership style, I remember

197
00:09:29,305 --> 00:09:31,706
I've kind of like done some sort of leadership my whole life.

198
00:09:31,706 --> 00:09:39,606
It's like football is present of my fraternity, but I remember coming into this job,
leading this team, and I was kind of talking to, not even a mentor, just someone who's

199
00:09:39,606 --> 00:09:40,706
been leading for a long time.

200
00:09:40,706 --> 00:09:46,386
And he was like, you have to have a one-on-one individual management style for each
employee.

201
00:09:46,386 --> 00:09:47,366
And I was like, what?

202
00:09:47,366 --> 00:09:48,526
Like, I just had style.

203
00:09:48,526 --> 00:09:50,606
Like this was Ben, this is how I manage.

204
00:09:50,606 --> 00:09:52,406
And then I'm like, oh no.

205
00:09:52,466 --> 00:09:54,766
Like each person requires a different love.

206
00:09:54,766 --> 00:09:56,239
Each person requires a different.

207
00:09:56,239 --> 00:10:01,201
feedback, like some people love the radical side where it's like, fling it to me, tell me.

208
00:10:01,201 --> 00:10:02,370
Other people don't, right?

209
00:10:02,370 --> 00:10:04,110
So have to kind of approach a little bit differently.

210
00:10:04,110 --> 00:10:12,166
So I would say learning to treat the people you manage as very specific individuals with
different strategies with one of those learning curves.

211
00:10:12,166 --> 00:10:13,066
had to learn.

212
00:10:13,311 --> 00:10:14,222
Yeah, yeah.

213
00:10:14,222 --> 00:10:21,848
And it's funny how they internally and externally with clients and with your team members,
it's the same reflection, right?

214
00:10:21,848 --> 00:10:28,305
And I find that that's often mirrored that one size across the board doesn't fit all,
which is an important lesson.

215
00:10:33,026 --> 00:10:34,677
I know it seems so obvious, right?

216
00:10:34,677 --> 00:10:35,808
You're like, duh.

217
00:10:35,808 --> 00:10:39,920
But then when you're in it as a young kid, like trying to manage team members, like, this
is my style.

218
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:40,841
Here's how I'm to do it.

219
00:10:40,841 --> 00:10:42,321
Like I'm going to be open and communicative.

220
00:10:42,321 --> 00:10:45,503
And you're like, well, that person doesn't like, like this style as much.

221
00:10:45,503 --> 00:10:46,274
got to adapt it.

222
00:10:46,274 --> 00:10:49,996
So I think that's with anything marketing strategies, relationship building.

223
00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:51,917
It's gotta be very personable.

224
00:10:53,238 --> 00:10:53,578
Yeah.

225
00:10:53,578 --> 00:11:05,783
communication has to shift and adjust, which is something that I want to dive into with
you because we spoke early on and if anybody's craft your LinkedIn, they would know that

226
00:11:05,783 --> 00:11:10,505
you feel a certain kind of way about Slack communication.

227
00:11:10,605 --> 00:11:13,826
And yeah, I just want to rip the bandaid off and get right into it.

228
00:11:13,826 --> 00:11:18,348
So naturally in a team, I told you this would come up early.

229
00:11:18,829 --> 00:11:20,289
Naturally in a team.

230
00:11:20,353 --> 00:11:28,557
Different people have different communication styles, they have different preferences, but
you also want some kind of cohesiveness across an organization to make sure that, you

231
00:11:28,557 --> 00:11:33,779
know, you're not just blasting a message out into the stratosphere and nobody responds.

232
00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:44,525
So talk to me a little bit about communication styles and preferences for you as a leader
and then some of the tools that you use or prefer not to use.

233
00:11:45,871 --> 00:11:46,711
All right, let's dive in.

234
00:11:46,711 --> 00:11:48,251
This is a hot take.

235
00:11:48,251 --> 00:11:49,371
I post about it LinkedIn.

236
00:11:49,371 --> 00:11:52,131
Sorry if the people listening have already heard it.

237
00:11:52,631 --> 00:11:54,731
I gotta be careful with how I say this.

238
00:11:54,731 --> 00:11:57,631
I dislike Slack for many reasons.

239
00:11:57,631 --> 00:12:00,531
I like it for very different reasons.

240
00:12:00,531 --> 00:12:05,711
But if you're using that as your primary communication source, I'm gonna call you lazy and
ineffective.

241
00:12:05,711 --> 00:12:10,470
Because everyone knows, we know 100 % that majority communication has...

242
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:12,171
nothing to do with the words you're saying.

243
00:12:12,171 --> 00:12:16,775
It's tonality, it's body language, it's how you're saying it, it's their sarcasm.

244
00:12:16,775 --> 00:12:19,937
And Slack just rips that option away from you.

245
00:12:19,937 --> 00:12:23,820
And I've noticed this, I noticed this early on with working with remote people.

246
00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:26,172
I have a theory, it builds natural paranoia.

247
00:12:26,172 --> 00:12:26,822
It just does.

248
00:12:26,822 --> 00:12:32,136
Like if you're communicating with your boss through 90 % Slack, you're gonna have these
weird thoughts.

249
00:12:32,136 --> 00:12:33,487
I've noticed myself, right?

250
00:12:33,487 --> 00:12:35,359
CEO hits me up, hey, where is this?

251
00:12:35,359 --> 00:12:37,590
I'm like, she's freaking out, she's mad at me.

252
00:12:37,666 --> 00:12:39,637
And then I walk into her office, she's like, yo dude, send it over to me.

253
00:12:39,637 --> 00:12:40,427
I want to help you build it.

254
00:12:40,427 --> 00:12:42,229
I'm like, okay.

255
00:12:42,229 --> 00:12:45,972
So if this is happening to me, I'm supposed to be the confident leader.

256
00:12:45,972 --> 00:12:52,436
Of course this is going to be happening to a 21 year old who just graduated college and is
like, we communicate through Slack.

257
00:12:52,536 --> 00:13:02,403
So something I tell my managers, I manage is Slack is your, Slack is great for just quick
communication, but if there's ever anything serious, you cannot touch Slack.

258
00:13:02,403 --> 00:13:04,684
And I've found myself mess up on this, right?

259
00:13:04,684 --> 00:13:07,806
I'm like, if I'm frustrated, I'm slacking someone, I'm like, stop.

260
00:13:08,206 --> 00:13:10,548
There's no way this can be handled well.

261
00:13:10,548 --> 00:13:12,649
And I'm sure we're going to talk about this in a second.

262
00:13:12,649 --> 00:13:16,158
am, if sarcasm level, mine is at like a 30 out of 10.

263
00:13:16,158 --> 00:13:17,282
It is just nonstop.

264
00:13:17,282 --> 00:13:19,974
My poor wife probably gets exhausted by it.

265
00:13:19,974 --> 00:13:22,495
But I noticed sarcasm so hard in Slack, right?

266
00:13:22,495 --> 00:13:23,696
It's like, is he serious?

267
00:13:23,696 --> 00:13:24,607
Is he not serious?

268
00:13:24,607 --> 00:13:25,917
So was like, stop.

269
00:13:26,118 --> 00:13:27,679
Avoid Slack at all costs.

270
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,651
There is something beautiful for Slack and email to have a paper trail.

271
00:13:30,651 --> 00:13:31,451
I get that, right?

272
00:13:31,451 --> 00:13:33,142
Having that communication.

273
00:13:33,231 --> 00:13:36,611
But at the end of the day, your primary should be face to face.

274
00:13:36,611 --> 00:13:38,491
And if you're a remote company, you can't do that.

275
00:13:38,491 --> 00:13:41,231
It is phone calls or zooms, right?

276
00:13:41,231 --> 00:13:45,191
Even if it isn't a zoom because there is some like lack of personability.

277
00:13:45,191 --> 00:13:47,111
Sometimes I think a phone call is better.

278
00:13:47,111 --> 00:13:49,631
Great, you can't see their face and things like that.

279
00:13:49,771 --> 00:13:56,391
having the ability to hear the tonality and then having that direct feedback versus just
we're slacking like it's a O L message.

280
00:13:56,391 --> 00:13:59,191
And I'm in my nine year old, making sure my parents don't see it.

281
00:13:59,191 --> 00:14:00,591
I'm slacking some stuff.

282
00:14:00,591 --> 00:14:01,400
So.

283
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,894
Hot take, avoid Slack at all costs, primary face-to-face communication.

284
00:14:05,894 --> 00:14:07,756
I'm sorry, like, I don't wanna diss Slack.

285
00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:09,657
I think it's one of the coolest tools ever, right?

286
00:14:09,657 --> 00:14:16,783
Like, it is so important for industries, but I've seen so many companies just destroy
culture because that's how they're communicating to their team.

287
00:14:16,784 --> 00:14:20,237
And managers do it because it's easier, but it's not gonna provide more value.

288
00:14:20,237 --> 00:14:23,425
So quit being lazy, avoid Slack, pick up the phone, do more Zoom calls.

289
00:14:23,425 --> 00:14:23,905
Love it.

290
00:14:23,905 --> 00:14:25,346
Hot take for sure.

291
00:14:25,346 --> 00:14:27,387
But accurate, accurate.

292
00:14:27,387 --> 00:14:29,218
Honestly, because it's true.

293
00:14:29,218 --> 00:14:32,149
I mean, having come from sales, you know the whole, what is it?

294
00:14:32,149 --> 00:14:32,699
The whole bit.

295
00:14:32,699 --> 00:14:35,491
Can they still hear you smiling when you hang up the phone?

296
00:14:35,491 --> 00:14:35,971
Right?

297
00:14:35,971 --> 00:14:43,834
You can still to some degree understand the emotion behind, of course, your tonality, but
you get a sense of how someone's feeling.

298
00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:49,097
what's your take on voice notes then?

299
00:14:50,306 --> 00:14:51,607
Ooh, I kinda like voice notes.

300
00:14:51,607 --> 00:14:53,669
I got a lot of employees, I love them.

301
00:14:53,669 --> 00:14:55,750
They'll just voice note me all the time.

302
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:57,172
My little sister does that.

303
00:14:57,172 --> 00:14:59,343
Like, I haven't gotten a text from my little sister in years.

304
00:14:59,343 --> 00:15:00,715
It's just voice notes.

305
00:15:00,715 --> 00:15:03,016
So the way I look at this is like, it's a little spectrum, right?

306
00:15:03,016 --> 00:15:09,041
If Slack is the very most narrow version, like, okay, if you have Slack, emojis, because
you can show personalities.

307
00:15:09,041 --> 00:15:10,272
That broadens it up a little bit.

308
00:15:10,272 --> 00:15:12,604
Okay, you're on a phone, or you're doing voicemail.

309
00:15:12,604 --> 00:15:15,086
I can now hear your tonality in your voice.

310
00:15:15,394 --> 00:15:17,114
I don't know more serious to conversation.

311
00:15:17,114 --> 00:15:21,406
think the more breadth of ability to understand the human human interaction, how are they
sitting?

312
00:15:21,406 --> 00:15:22,456
What do their eyes look like?

313
00:15:22,456 --> 00:15:23,326
Are they upset?

314
00:15:23,326 --> 00:15:23,926
What is this?

315
00:15:23,926 --> 00:15:31,388
Like opening up that spectrum for more serious conversation is super important, but I also
get very clearly time is of the essence.

316
00:15:31,388 --> 00:15:37,600
There's times I hop out of a meeting, run to the bathroom because I'm feeding four hours
and I'm slacking my slacking.

317
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,841
One of my coworkers, Hey, send me this doc so I can help you with it.

318
00:15:39,841 --> 00:15:41,281
That is absolutely needed.

319
00:15:41,281 --> 00:15:44,472
But if you're asking like very specific, like, Hey, how'd that feedback go?

320
00:15:44,472 --> 00:15:45,282
Or Hey,

321
00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:52,750
If another hot take, if a manager leaves feedback in Slack and I've caught myself doing
this, absolutely not.

322
00:15:52,750 --> 00:15:53,710
Absolutely not.

323
00:15:53,710 --> 00:15:55,361
So yes, avoid that at all costs.

324
00:15:55,361 --> 00:15:56,702
I will double down on that.

325
00:15:56,702 --> 00:16:01,563
Feedback should not be sent in writing in any capacity.

326
00:16:01,563 --> 00:16:16,988
Maybe, yes, formally followed up afterwards with a paper trail as you mentioned, just for
formality's sake, but otherwise you were opening up a world of headaches and redundancy

327
00:16:16,988 --> 00:16:19,418
because you're gonna have to have the conversation again, right?

328
00:16:19,418 --> 00:16:20,439
Because they're not gonna be happy.

329
00:16:20,439 --> 00:16:21,919
It's not gonna land well.

330
00:16:23,096 --> 00:16:23,556
You nailed it.

331
00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:25,908
And I think, I think the follow-up is crucial.

332
00:16:25,908 --> 00:16:30,041
There's a great book called effective executive broke my boss, like made me read it.

333
00:16:30,041 --> 00:16:31,142
She's like, Hey, you should read this.

334
00:16:31,142 --> 00:16:32,499
You know, I'm like catching the hits.

335
00:16:32,499 --> 00:16:33,734
Like, okay, I got you.

336
00:16:33,734 --> 00:16:34,494
Right.

337
00:16:34,494 --> 00:16:36,426
One of the biggest things is like that follow-up.

338
00:16:36,426 --> 00:16:38,717
And that was something I was kind of like, not the best at, right?

339
00:16:38,717 --> 00:16:45,522
Like I'm a little bit more opposite of type a I'm a little bit more like creative, less
organized, you know, that kind of personality.

340
00:16:45,522 --> 00:16:51,224
So I realized early on, I was like, cool, have those conversations with the team members,
give them feedback, et cetera.

341
00:16:51,224 --> 00:16:53,055
but then use that written form to send a follow up.

342
00:16:53,055 --> 00:16:54,316
Hey, here's what we talked about.

343
00:16:54,316 --> 00:16:55,437
Here's when we're doing this.

344
00:16:55,437 --> 00:16:56,758
Here's the deadlines, et cetera.

345
00:16:56,758 --> 00:17:04,163
That's the best form of communication on the follow through as a manager, but in any
serious conversation, if your manager hasn't picked up the phone and called you in a

346
00:17:04,163 --> 00:17:05,654
while, red flag, right?

347
00:17:05,654 --> 00:17:07,851
So always face to face communication first.

348
00:17:07,851 --> 00:17:08,641
fantastic.

349
00:17:08,641 --> 00:17:19,119
And one thing I really want to highlight, and this is what I appreciated in our first
conversation, and obviously we bonded over our Scottish heritage, but you also have a very

350
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,470
high degree of self-awareness.

351
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:27,916
So you know, you know that your sarcasm could be misconstrued, but that is one of your
communication styles, right?

352
00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:30,468
That's, and it's also a love language.

353
00:17:30,468 --> 00:17:31,988
If you're Scottish, you know.

354
00:17:33,153 --> 00:17:40,045
but you know yourself well enough to say, if I send this through Slack, it's probably
going to be misconstrued.

355
00:17:40,045 --> 00:17:44,796
Therefore, if I know that I'm being sarcastic, I should pick up the phone or I should add
an emoji.

356
00:17:44,796 --> 00:17:55,459
But I think there's not just understanding that one size doesn't fit all for our team
members, but also for ourselves and recognizing how we communicate and how we show up,

357
00:17:55,459 --> 00:17:59,881
because then that will help us understand who's on the other side, who's on the receiving
side.

358
00:17:59,881 --> 00:18:01,521
So for...

359
00:18:02,093 --> 00:18:03,234
for a little bit more fun.

360
00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:07,107
Talk to me about your communication style.

361
00:18:07,107 --> 00:18:14,984
And again, this is something that's near and dear to my heart because my fiance, bless
him, we communicate with sarcasm.

362
00:18:14,984 --> 00:18:19,827
And sometimes I think if people could hear us, they'd be like, is she okay?

363
00:18:20,688 --> 00:18:23,030
But it's all in good fun.

364
00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:28,475
So how does that show up with your team for people who might not be used to a certain
sense of humor?

365
00:18:28,475 --> 00:18:31,947
And we can call it, know, any kind of sense of humor, but we're gonna...

366
00:18:31,959 --> 00:18:34,536
dial into the Scottish side, yeah.

367
00:18:35,832 --> 00:18:37,636
It's a good question, right?

368
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:45,924
early on I was definitely very personal, had a good group of friends, so I like, think
everyone really likes the sarcasm side, and then I kinda realized, some people do, you

369
00:18:45,924 --> 00:18:46,114
know?

370
00:18:46,114 --> 00:18:49,455
Some people, it goes right over their head, they do not get it.

371
00:18:49,515 --> 00:18:59,400
So I always kinda thought about this, I think a good leader remembers those jobs working
in the kitchen, or being a kid, or having those thoughts, so I noticed early on, was like,

372
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:08,044
cool, if my boss has asked me something over Slack, I get a little worried about it, I'm
very aware of that, so do I wanna do that to my team members in the future?

373
00:19:08,394 --> 00:19:11,611
self-aware of how you felt in those positions really helps.

374
00:19:11,833 --> 00:19:17,002
And then I would say, know, I like sarcasm because

375
00:19:17,002 --> 00:19:21,073
I'm one of those guys who I have this motto, it's very stoic, it's momentum worry, right?

376
00:19:21,073 --> 00:19:22,385
It's like, remember you're going to die.

377
00:19:22,385 --> 00:19:26,366
So I don't want to go through life not laughing as much as possible.

378
00:19:26,366 --> 00:19:32,679
There are some times I really want to get serious and down dirty with it, but there's also
times where I'm like, I will say this to my team.

379
00:19:32,679 --> 00:19:35,180
Like, will I be thinking about this when I'm old and gray?

380
00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:35,871
Right?

381
00:19:35,871 --> 00:19:36,471
No.

382
00:19:36,471 --> 00:19:38,022
So let's, let's have some fun with it.

383
00:19:38,022 --> 00:19:39,132
Let's do the best we can.

384
00:19:39,132 --> 00:19:40,183
Let's work with our friends.

385
00:19:40,183 --> 00:19:41,107
Let's make money with our friends.

386
00:19:41,107 --> 00:19:43,655
Like really kind of layering that.

387
00:19:43,655 --> 00:19:46,899
But it does allow you to, if you're always positive, not always, if you're

388
00:19:46,899 --> 00:19:50,792
mostly positive, you have a good mindset about it, you are sarcastic.

389
00:19:50,792 --> 00:19:55,936
If you do need to have those very direct conversations, it's not a, well he always is mad.

390
00:19:55,936 --> 00:19:57,958
Like this is just his norm, right?

391
00:19:57,958 --> 00:20:02,421
It's like, he is being serious for once, because I haven't seen him serious at this level
in months.

392
00:20:02,421 --> 00:20:09,857
So it allows some ability to kind of see that as like a different talking style, but I
will always leave within sarcasm.

393
00:20:09,857 --> 00:20:16,762
It clearly is for my father, he was very Scottish, my sisters are the exact same way, like
we, my poor mother, she's even

394
00:20:16,762 --> 00:20:17,803
sarcastic as hell.

395
00:20:17,803 --> 00:20:19,794
is truly how we just talk to each other.

396
00:20:19,794 --> 00:20:21,555
It is a love language.

397
00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:24,208
But kind of early on, I had to realize some people love it.

398
00:20:24,208 --> 00:20:25,018
Some people don't.

399
00:20:25,018 --> 00:20:27,480
Most people love having fun and just like joking about things.

400
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:34,793
But there's also times I realize, okay, you need to be serious because they don't really
get sarcasm and this could be taken the wrong way, right?

401
00:20:34,793 --> 00:20:35,694
Right.

402
00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:38,510
And I also think there's a layer to it with feedback, right?

403
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:41,490
Like I started jiu-jitsu, did something really dumb the other day, right?

404
00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:44,530
My coaches just giggling at me like, Ben, I just showed this to you.

405
00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:46,030
Like, let's switch it that way.

406
00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:47,390
I was like, cool, let's figure it out.

407
00:20:47,390 --> 00:20:48,070
Let's talk about it.

408
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:50,930
But if he came down and yelled at me, he was like, Ben, you just missed this.

409
00:20:50,930 --> 00:20:53,510
I probably been like, did settle down, right?

410
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:57,270
Like, but because he had this air to it, it allowed us to have fun with it.

411
00:20:57,270 --> 00:21:00,010
So then we got to try it three different times and I got it.

412
00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:00,830
So I don't know.

413
00:21:00,830 --> 00:21:02,990
I always think sarcasm is a good default.

414
00:21:02,990 --> 00:21:04,450
Some people are better than others.

415
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:06,074
If you try and turn on sarcasm.

416
00:21:06,074 --> 00:21:11,603
sarcasm and you're not very sarcastic it could come across a very wrong but if it's part
of your ethos let it fly.

417
00:21:11,603 --> 00:21:12,904
very true.

418
00:21:13,144 --> 00:21:16,806
I love that you added context in there, right?

419
00:21:16,806 --> 00:21:22,110
That if then you do have to have a serious conversation, people can sense the change.

420
00:21:22,110 --> 00:21:30,616
They understand the intention behind the conversation rather than it just kind of being a
neutral flat line of how you always operate.

421
00:21:30,677 --> 00:21:34,089
That then can be also taken in the wrong way, right?

422
00:21:34,089 --> 00:21:37,263
Just, yeah, it's no, I think.

423
00:21:37,263 --> 00:21:38,083
It is weird though.

424
00:21:38,083 --> 00:21:40,243
Like you gotta, you gotta know when to turn it on and off, right?

425
00:21:40,243 --> 00:21:41,343
You can't be too sarcastic.

426
00:21:41,343 --> 00:21:41,503
Really?

427
00:21:41,503 --> 00:21:43,823
Like he never, he never takes anything seriously, right?

428
00:21:43,823 --> 00:21:45,783
Like I am very serious about results.

429
00:21:45,783 --> 00:21:51,883
I'm very serious about us growing and getting better, but all that, all the like air
around it, let's have some fun with it.

430
00:21:51,883 --> 00:21:52,963
Let's be sarcastic.

431
00:21:52,963 --> 00:21:54,203
Let's make jokes about it.

432
00:21:54,203 --> 00:21:55,983
Never at the detriment to someone else.

433
00:21:55,983 --> 00:21:56,363
Right?

434
00:21:56,363 --> 00:22:03,143
Like if you're just shitting on other people all the time, your workers are going to be
like, yeah, dude, this isn't a, but if you're very self-deprecating, I learned that early

435
00:22:03,143 --> 00:22:03,443
on.

436
00:22:03,443 --> 00:22:05,803
was like, Hey, self-deprecation is very funny.

437
00:22:05,803 --> 00:22:06,703
The team likes it.

438
00:22:06,703 --> 00:22:07,216
Let's have some

439
00:22:07,216 --> 00:22:11,151
I can be the father jokes like that doesn't bother me at all

440
00:22:11,522 --> 00:22:14,423
Granted, I did learn early on the social team took that and ran with it.

441
00:22:14,423 --> 00:22:17,054
So like I was getting pranked in our social videos all the time.

442
00:22:17,054 --> 00:22:18,735
If you want to check them out, they're hilarious.

443
00:22:18,735 --> 00:22:22,367
Like my social team will come to my office and be like, Hey, I want to film a video.

444
00:22:22,367 --> 00:22:23,247
I am on edge.

445
00:22:23,247 --> 00:22:25,318
I am just like, are they here?

446
00:22:25,318 --> 00:22:26,398
Are they setting me up?

447
00:22:26,398 --> 00:22:34,622
So I've gotten really good at kind of figuring that out, but it allowed them to kind of be
playful with me and treat me like an older brother, like a goofy uncle versus like he's so

448
00:22:34,622 --> 00:22:34,932
serious.

449
00:22:34,932 --> 00:22:37,733
I can't go into his office and prank him with social videos.

450
00:22:37,733 --> 00:22:40,317
Like, come on, bring it, you know, bring it.

451
00:22:40,317 --> 00:22:49,700
Well, it also showcases such an example of openness and transparency as well, because
you're like, can make mistakes.

452
00:22:49,700 --> 00:23:01,824
I can do things that aren't perfect as the old leadership tale goes, where you have to
show up perfectly pressed shirt, perfect face, saying all the perfect things all the time.

453
00:23:01,824 --> 00:23:06,665
And so to see an example of their leader being like, yeah, I can.

454
00:23:06,965 --> 00:23:10,028
I can have a laugh at myself as well through the good, the bad, and the ugly.

455
00:23:10,028 --> 00:23:18,638
I'm sure also cultivates quite the feeling of trust and also of psychological safety
within your team.

456
00:23:18,638 --> 00:23:19,739
What'd you say?

457
00:23:19,739 --> 00:23:20,680
Yeah?

458
00:23:20,881 --> 00:23:21,520
Yeah.

459
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,761
And I'm sure you've had bosses who are the opposite, right?

460
00:23:23,761 --> 00:23:25,122
Like I've had them.

461
00:23:25,142 --> 00:23:29,865
Yeah, I just remember one time like dealing with a boss, we'll never name him, but like
I'm just breaking out in hives.

462
00:23:29,865 --> 00:23:35,097
I'm like two years out of college, lived in just like some cockroach infested apartment,
no money.

463
00:23:35,097 --> 00:23:36,830
Literally it was so bad.

464
00:23:36,830 --> 00:23:42,393
Like me and my best friend were just living in this rundown apartment, but I'm like, this
woman's like yelling at me.

465
00:23:42,393 --> 00:23:43,594
I started two months ago.

466
00:23:43,594 --> 00:23:44,047
I'm like.

467
00:23:44,047 --> 00:23:45,967
This isn't how I want to be led, right?

468
00:23:45,967 --> 00:23:48,047
Like I don't respect this person at all.

469
00:23:48,047 --> 00:23:52,427
So I was like, okay, if I'm ever going to lead, I got to be, I got to be someone I would
want to respect.

470
00:23:52,427 --> 00:23:54,587
It's kind of that self respect, how you build self respect.

471
00:23:54,587 --> 00:23:57,707
It's like do things that you would find respect in other people.

472
00:23:57,707 --> 00:24:01,107
So early on, I was like, okay, you know, how would I want to be managed?

473
00:24:01,327 --> 00:24:02,926
What would that look like?

474
00:24:02,926 --> 00:24:07,286
How do I dial it up a little bit or lower a little bit depending on who I'm working with?

475
00:24:07,286 --> 00:24:08,106
How do I get serious?

476
00:24:08,106 --> 00:24:09,506
How do I get playful?

477
00:24:09,506 --> 00:24:14,426
But at the end of the day, I just wanna work with people who have fun doing it, get
awesome results and do it that way, hopefully.

478
00:24:14,426 --> 00:24:15,986
But I'm still learning, right?

479
00:24:15,986 --> 00:24:20,046
I mess up all the time, forgot that follow-up or did something like that.

480
00:24:20,046 --> 00:24:22,666
Being very clear if I messed up goes back to your point.

481
00:24:22,666 --> 00:24:24,626
They wanna see you have that.

482
00:24:24,626 --> 00:24:28,026
If you're a leader who just thinks you're perfect all the time, the team doesn't like you.

483
00:24:28,026 --> 00:24:30,846
They are talking behind your back, et cetera.

484
00:24:30,846 --> 00:24:33,380
So be cool with failure.

485
00:24:33,682 --> 00:24:38,329
And then if you build that within yourself the team then is going to be cool with failure
and again

486
00:24:38,382 --> 00:24:40,282
This is so important to marketing.

487
00:24:40,282 --> 00:24:41,802
I say this all the time.

488
00:24:41,802 --> 00:24:43,342
Marketers are little science experiments.

489
00:24:43,342 --> 00:24:44,562
You're trying 12 different things.

490
00:24:44,562 --> 00:24:46,402
One works well, one doesn't.

491
00:24:46,402 --> 00:24:51,122
If you have a weird culture that doesn't value failure as a marketer, you're going to
fail.

492
00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:52,942
You're going to full fail, full stop.

493
00:24:52,942 --> 00:24:53,762
Right?

494
00:24:53,762 --> 00:24:55,122
So I tried 20 different things.

495
00:24:55,122 --> 00:24:56,162
This one works.

496
00:24:56,162 --> 00:25:00,682
Having that, having that culture of like, tried this, it didn't work, but this one did.

497
00:25:00,702 --> 00:25:02,842
That's when you really get the cool marketing stuff.

498
00:25:02,842 --> 00:25:05,122
First, it's just everything's got to be perfect.

499
00:25:05,122 --> 00:25:08,396
And I will say the younger generation is way cooler within professional.

500
00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:11,808
than me being a millennial or the older generation above.

501
00:25:11,808 --> 00:25:13,219
They wanna see that, right?

502
00:25:13,219 --> 00:25:15,420
Goes back like I'm not wearing a press suit every day.

503
00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:20,133
Should look really good probably, but they wanna see some of that imperfection.

504
00:25:20,133 --> 00:25:23,265
I've even noticed great companies marketing are cool with imperfection.

505
00:25:23,265 --> 00:25:27,267
Hey, we just sent you an email to 20,000 people and we messed up the first name.

506
00:25:27,267 --> 00:25:29,536
I'm so sorry, here's your second email.

507
00:25:29,536 --> 00:25:30,619
I see it all the time, right?

508
00:25:30,619 --> 00:25:31,970
So be cool with that imperfection.

509
00:25:31,970 --> 00:25:32,369
100%.

510
00:25:32,369 --> 00:25:38,911
I got an email the other day from someone and it said, final, I don't know, was whatever
the subject line was.

511
00:25:38,911 --> 00:25:41,612
And then in capitals, it said edit before sending out.

512
00:25:41,612 --> 00:25:44,413
And the entire thing had all the fields in there.

513
00:25:44,413 --> 00:25:49,314
And I was like, no, someone didn't read the subject line here.

514
00:25:49,354 --> 00:25:55,976
But for sure, I was, that caused me to go into our email database and I was like, shit,
we've got an email going out.

515
00:25:55,976 --> 00:25:57,467
Did I, did I edit everything?

516
00:25:57,467 --> 00:25:58,997
Is everything okay there?

517
00:25:59,157 --> 00:26:01,939
So it's also a lesson.

518
00:26:01,939 --> 00:26:04,038
Spiked my blood pressure.

519
00:26:04,038 --> 00:26:06,578
is pressing send on a large marketing email?

520
00:26:06,758 --> 00:26:12,998
Like for marketers, like that, I remember day one, like starting my job and we had to send
an email list to like 2000 people.

521
00:26:12,998 --> 00:26:15,698
I was just like, it was like MailChimp press send.

522
00:26:15,698 --> 00:26:16,158
Are you sure?

523
00:26:16,158 --> 00:26:17,838
I'm like, oh my gosh.

524
00:26:17,838 --> 00:26:24,038
Going off track a little bit, but it's just one of those feelings people don't get when
you're like, I'm sending this email to 20,000 people and I just misspelled something.

525
00:26:24,338 --> 00:26:25,198
Great.

526
00:26:26,218 --> 00:26:26,719
Great.

527
00:26:26,719 --> 00:26:30,018
been like, that says crap instead of clap.

528
00:26:30,018 --> 00:26:32,083
I hope people see the humor in that.

529
00:26:33,621 --> 00:26:35,204
At that point, just keep it.

530
00:26:35,246 --> 00:26:36,206
Just keep it.

531
00:26:36,206 --> 00:26:37,686
the wall.

532
00:26:38,027 --> 00:26:41,248
you know, imperfection teaches us things.

533
00:26:41,248 --> 00:26:45,911
It allows our team to connect, I would say, because we're humans.

534
00:26:45,911 --> 00:26:53,264
And if we connected over being perfect, then we would live in a simulation and not in the
real world, which we might anyways.

535
00:26:53,264 --> 00:26:56,075
But, know, that's a conversation for another time.

536
00:26:57,637 --> 00:26:59,007
Yeah, seriously.

537
00:27:00,786 --> 00:27:02,267
Full simulation.

538
00:27:02,598 --> 00:27:06,002
just, yeah, non-experts just talking about simulation.

539
00:27:06,002 --> 00:27:06,433
We're in it.

540
00:27:06,433 --> 00:27:06,974
We're deep.

541
00:27:06,974 --> 00:27:09,811
You know, lizard people, but another day.

542
00:27:09,811 --> 00:27:11,373
that'll be part two.

543
00:27:11,373 --> 00:27:13,555
Many hot takes to come on that.

544
00:27:16,118 --> 00:27:18,140
So you have a lot of fun with your team.

545
00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:19,982
It sounds like there's a lot of trust.

546
00:27:19,982 --> 00:27:27,450
And one thing that I want to dive into before we end this episode and, you know, not yet,
but in the future.

547
00:27:28,211 --> 00:27:30,473
I know, I know time flies when you're having fun.

548
00:27:31,297 --> 00:27:34,880
This part is the not so fun side of leadership that many people dread.

549
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:43,517
And when you were talking about, you know, getting serious and having those difficult
conversations, what are some of the tactics you've learned over the past eight years and

550
00:27:43,517 --> 00:27:43,987
beyond that?

551
00:27:43,987 --> 00:27:47,510
Because obviously you had to have those pre-market week as well.

552
00:27:47,891 --> 00:27:51,053
What are some of the tactics you used to have those difficult conversations?

553
00:27:51,053 --> 00:28:00,951
Obviously change in tonality, a setting, but what else helps you have those difficult
conversations that drive the results that we know you care about?

554
00:28:00,951 --> 00:28:05,369
versus just having a difficult conversation and then nothing changes.

555
00:28:06,454 --> 00:28:08,476
Ooh, let's say two parts, right?

556
00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,059
It is clear expectations.

557
00:28:11,059 --> 00:28:14,401
So I think people go really crazy when they don't know what they're supposed to be doing.

558
00:28:14,401 --> 00:28:21,899
I found myself in this, me being a manager who errs on the side of like freedom, wall
screaming freedom, just kidding, we'll do that another time.

559
00:28:21,899 --> 00:28:27,564
But it can remove some like, what the heck am I supposed to be doing on a day-to-day
basis?

560
00:28:27,564 --> 00:28:29,957
So as a good manager, I'm setting those expectations.

561
00:28:29,957 --> 00:28:31,197
So it's not like...

562
00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:35,410
Ben, you think I'm not doing a great job, but in my mind, I'm doing a great job.

563
00:28:35,410 --> 00:28:37,850
It is, hey, here are the things we're trying to reach.

564
00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:39,450
We didn't reach them.

565
00:28:39,530 --> 00:28:40,490
That, right?

566
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:42,770
So having those expectations really helps.

567
00:28:42,770 --> 00:28:47,470
I would also say I am very, very cognizant of that lobster brain theory.

568
00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:55,682
So if I give you harsh feedback, will you reshape your brain to become what they call it
like a beta lobster versus alpha, but it's like...

569
00:28:55,682 --> 00:29:00,404
You cannot destroy the person with feedback so they don't find their confidence.

570
00:29:00,464 --> 00:29:02,335
Granted, there are people who are just missing the mark.

571
00:29:02,335 --> 00:29:03,434
That happens in leadership.

572
00:29:03,434 --> 00:29:04,436
You're gonna have to let them go.

573
00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:05,336
That is okay.

574
00:29:05,336 --> 00:29:06,817
They will be successful elsewhere.

575
00:29:06,817 --> 00:29:07,988
That is a very real thing.

576
00:29:07,988 --> 00:29:13,430
But if you're giving feedback to someone you know you wanna be there for long time, your
job is not to demoralize them.

577
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:15,201
Your job is not to humiliate them.

578
00:29:15,201 --> 00:29:19,373
Your job is to provide them guidance on how to be better at what they're doing.

579
00:29:19,373 --> 00:29:26,116
Again, going back to that Jiu Jitsu example, yeah, he was sarcastic, but if he just
started yelling at me in front of class, like, hey Ben, I showed you this yesterday.

580
00:29:26,297 --> 00:29:27,429
What the heck are you doing?

581
00:29:27,429 --> 00:29:29,002
This isn't cutting it.

582
00:29:29,002 --> 00:29:31,021
That's what I'm like, dude I'm not good at this.

583
00:29:31,021 --> 00:29:33,309
It's gonna mess with my confidence versus

584
00:29:33,647 --> 00:29:35,068
Hey, I know you can do this.

585
00:29:35,068 --> 00:29:40,870
Here are three steps I want you to do to get better at that step and then just celebrate
the wins once they reach them.

586
00:29:40,970 --> 00:29:47,993
And I would say the last part is I've had managers who are so quick to show what's bad,
but give no solution on how to get better.

587
00:29:47,993 --> 00:29:52,755
A good manager sits with you and says, here's where you're not meeting the mark.

588
00:29:52,755 --> 00:29:56,587
Here are the next action items I want you to do to get better in that space.

589
00:29:56,587 --> 00:30:02,780
So if I was telling someone, Hey, you're not great on calls, but I wasn't giving them
advice on how to do public speaking.

590
00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:04,100
I'm a shitty manager.

591
00:30:04,421 --> 00:30:06,192
Like it's easy to point out imperfections.

592
00:30:06,192 --> 00:30:07,033
I can do this all day.

593
00:30:07,033 --> 00:30:08,014
What's wrong with this desk?

594
00:30:08,014 --> 00:30:08,754
What's wrong with that?

595
00:30:08,754 --> 00:30:09,645
That's easy.

596
00:30:09,645 --> 00:30:12,847
But if you sit down and say, hey, here's where you're not meeting the mark.

597
00:30:12,847 --> 00:30:15,689
Here's my solution and game plan to get you better.

598
00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:19,533
That is just a normal conversation that should be very easy to have.

599
00:30:19,533 --> 00:30:26,318
And I have noticed like people who've done sports in their childhood are much cooler with
feedback than some other people, right?

600
00:30:26,318 --> 00:30:27,789
It's like, yeah, I've been coached.

601
00:30:27,789 --> 00:30:29,289
Tell me how to run faster.

602
00:30:29,289 --> 00:30:30,280
Absolutely.

603
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,612
But the people who've never played sports, it's a little bit harder because I think it's
like an ego issue.

604
00:30:34,612 --> 00:30:35,922
And I'm like, dude, drop the ego.

605
00:30:35,922 --> 00:30:36,730
You're not great at it.

606
00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:37,143
You're 22.

607
00:30:37,143 --> 00:30:38,904
You're not supposed to be great at this.

608
00:30:38,904 --> 00:30:40,535
Like wait 10 years.

609
00:30:40,535 --> 00:30:43,926
Be cool with being imperfect in many avenues.

610
00:30:44,006 --> 00:30:48,748
So I would say just kind of reframing like the goal of the conversation and just like,
here's what this looks like.

611
00:30:48,748 --> 00:30:53,281
So long winded answer, clear expectations, avoid beating them down.

612
00:30:53,281 --> 00:30:56,592
So they have that really good alpha lobster brand.

613
00:30:56,592 --> 00:30:58,863
People don't know what I'm talking about.

614
00:30:58,863 --> 00:31:01,533
They're probably like, he's crazy, but it's the thing, right?

615
00:31:01,533 --> 00:31:04,654
And then just having a solution for how to move forward.

616
00:31:04,794 --> 00:31:06,354
I want you to get better at this.

617
00:31:06,354 --> 00:31:07,435
Here are your action steps.

618
00:31:07,435 --> 00:31:08,655
Go watch this YouTube video.

619
00:31:08,655 --> 00:31:10,175
Here's some books I want to read.

620
00:31:10,175 --> 00:31:12,676
Talk to me once you're done reading those or let's trial this.

621
00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:14,166
Record your next two calls.

622
00:31:14,166 --> 00:31:17,217
Let's sit and talk to you about how to get better on phone calls.

623
00:31:17,217 --> 00:31:19,857
All of that is where a good manager really lives.

624
00:31:19,917 --> 00:31:22,670
A bad manager takes the stress from their higher ups.

625
00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:24,830
permeates down to you with no solutions.

626
00:31:24,830 --> 00:31:26,554
And everyone sees that all the time.

627
00:31:26,554 --> 00:31:35,019
And I want to add in one really important thing that you mentioned, and that's acknowledge
the, whether it's effort or the success of meeting expectations once you see that

628
00:31:35,019 --> 00:31:36,020
progress.

629
00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:40,162
And I think that that helps to drive and solidify that feedback, right?

630
00:31:40,162 --> 00:31:44,745
You mentioned that, there's, yeah, there's effort that has to go into.

631
00:31:44,747 --> 00:31:45,397
getting better.

632
00:31:45,397 --> 00:31:50,720
There's effort that has to go into changing behaviors, learning new habits, learning new
skills.

633
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,883
And when you can acknowledge, you don't have to necessarily praise because they haven't
gone above and beyond.

634
00:31:55,883 --> 00:31:58,225
They've done the thing that you now want them to do.

635
00:31:58,225 --> 00:32:01,266
But when you acknowledge that and say, I've noticed the improvement.

636
00:32:01,266 --> 00:32:02,187
That was really great.

637
00:32:02,187 --> 00:32:03,287
Keep it up.

638
00:32:03,627 --> 00:32:09,881
What better way than for someone to take ownership over their own learning and
development, right?

639
00:32:09,881 --> 00:32:13,293
Than to, than to see that you see the progress they've made.

640
00:32:13,293 --> 00:32:14,073
So

641
00:32:14,325 --> 00:32:15,548
I think it's...

642
00:32:15,712 --> 00:32:16,563
yeah.

643
00:32:16,678 --> 00:32:17,818
I think there's two things on that.

644
00:32:17,818 --> 00:32:19,258
It's like one, acknowledging what they're doing, right?

645
00:32:19,258 --> 00:32:21,098
Like, dude, I saw you try that.

646
00:32:21,098 --> 00:32:23,118
Not close, but I love that you tried, right?

647
00:32:23,118 --> 00:32:25,838
Like having that conversation was super important.

648
00:32:25,898 --> 00:32:30,905
So would say like really focusing on that side, having the clarity is kinda, it's all good
stuff.

649
00:32:30,905 --> 00:32:32,285
yes, exactly.

650
00:32:32,385 --> 00:32:34,525
And learning and development never really ends.

651
00:32:34,785 --> 00:32:39,245
So, you know, they learn, we learn and grow.

652
00:32:39,765 --> 00:32:49,105
And, you know, I think there's a lot of things through experience that, as you mentioned,
you know, some of the younger people who are 22 feel like they should have it all figured

653
00:32:49,105 --> 00:32:54,885
out, but they haven't had the experiences to fail or to even have the opportunity to
learn.

654
00:32:55,685 --> 00:32:59,499
So for yourself, how do you continue, especially being in a...

655
00:32:59,499 --> 00:33:05,018
in a senior leadership role now, how do you continue to develop your personal and
professional growth as you move forward?

656
00:33:05,018 --> 00:33:05,639
Yeah, yeah.

657
00:33:05,639 --> 00:33:06,311
that.

658
00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:11,922
I would say a lot of managers lose respect from their team members because they're not in
the weeds as much.

659
00:33:11,922 --> 00:33:13,362
And you don't have to be in the weeds.

660
00:33:13,362 --> 00:33:17,482
But like, I don't want to be taught from a soccer coach who's never played soccer before,
right?

661
00:33:17,482 --> 00:33:20,262
So like kind of staying dangerous is really important.

662
00:33:20,262 --> 00:33:22,962
Like, hey dude, let me take two sales calls for you.

663
00:33:22,962 --> 00:33:24,822
Just like stun on them a little bit and show them your better.

664
00:33:24,822 --> 00:33:25,822
No, I'm just kidding.

665
00:33:26,502 --> 00:33:33,722
But staying deep in there is really important because I think that builds leadership or
that builds respect from your employees a lot too.

666
00:33:33,802 --> 00:33:35,502
So that one.

667
00:33:35,502 --> 00:33:36,122
Yeah.

668
00:33:36,122 --> 00:33:37,476
And I would say like

669
00:33:37,805 --> 00:33:39,306
It goes back to that self-awareness, right?

670
00:33:39,306 --> 00:33:42,377
Just like being cool with just messing up.

671
00:33:42,377 --> 00:33:43,317
I love learning.

672
00:33:43,317 --> 00:33:45,638
think the best leaders are obsessed with it, right?

673
00:33:45,638 --> 00:33:47,529
So I call like information holics.

674
00:33:47,529 --> 00:33:52,791
They're just pouring information into their brain all day and then they're pouring it into
their team members.

675
00:33:52,791 --> 00:33:54,101
Hey, I just learned this with AI.

676
00:33:54,101 --> 00:33:55,143
Let's go try it, right?

677
00:33:55,143 --> 00:33:56,043
Like, let's do that.

678
00:33:56,043 --> 00:34:00,325
So it's not just this like person who is critiquing your work all the time.

679
00:34:00,325 --> 00:34:03,646
They're trying different stuff and they're learning it all the time.

680
00:34:03,646 --> 00:34:06,688
Again, going back to my Jiu-Jitsu example, had a Sunday class.

681
00:34:06,688 --> 00:34:07,728
My coach went to this

682
00:34:07,728 --> 00:34:09,408
He's like guys, that's what I just learned.

683
00:34:09,408 --> 00:34:11,988
Let's all let's all go through it I was like, this is so fun.

684
00:34:11,988 --> 00:34:15,968
Like I need to do this more as a manager like hey I just learned this really cool new
feature.

685
00:34:15,968 --> 00:34:23,608
Let's go get the team members and talk about it So learning as a leader and then pouring
that back in your team It's just so important for you.

686
00:34:23,608 --> 00:34:32,648
And if you get I don't know people get bored I get bored if I stop learning right if I
stop progressing so if you're finding cool new tactics and strategies of leadership

687
00:34:32,648 --> 00:34:36,488
Communication and pouring that back in then the team's like oh he's in this too.

688
00:34:36,488 --> 00:34:37,698
Like he's figuring this out

689
00:34:37,698 --> 00:34:39,669
he's learning, he's providing value.

690
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:41,359
It's just not some antiquated way.

691
00:34:41,359 --> 00:34:45,311
He was trained 10 years ago from his sales leader that they still think works.

692
00:34:45,311 --> 00:34:50,600
mean, literally my sales would put a mirror in front of my TV or my computer, so I'm
smiling and dialing.

693
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,693
I'm like, hey, that stuff worked.

694
00:34:51,693 --> 00:34:52,563
Like, I'm so grateful.

695
00:34:52,563 --> 00:34:55,259
But there's new strategies and new techniques to try to.

696
00:34:55,259 --> 00:34:56,079
absolutely.

697
00:34:56,079 --> 00:35:05,314
And I'm sure too, you get to see, kind of shines a light on some things, some strengths
that other team members might have, but they don't know what they don't know either until

698
00:35:05,314 --> 00:35:07,545
you do something and they take to it.

699
00:35:07,545 --> 00:35:08,536
They're really good at it.

700
00:35:08,536 --> 00:35:09,656
They have interest in it.

701
00:35:09,656 --> 00:35:13,208
And now that becomes a project you can pass off to someone else.

702
00:35:13,208 --> 00:35:13,869
Right?

703
00:35:13,869 --> 00:35:14,729
Yeah.

704
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:18,130
Man, that's such a good point to not to like dive too much into that.

705
00:35:18,130 --> 00:35:20,950
think a great manager knows what his team's good at, right?

706
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:25,530
It's like, again, using a football analogy, it's like, I'm not going to put a 330 pound
lineman as a receiver.

707
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:26,730
Like he has natural strengths.

708
00:35:26,730 --> 00:35:29,410
Like you go sit at right tackle and defend my quarterback.

709
00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:33,190
So I think a good manager comes in and says, where's, where's my team good?

710
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:35,030
Where are they passionate about?

711
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:44,030
Where can I kind of direct that, that, that avenue of them being really good at something
to benefit our clients, benefit our team members versus a one size fits all.

712
00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:44,947
And that does require some

713
00:35:44,947 --> 00:35:46,469
movement and intentionality, right?

714
00:35:46,469 --> 00:35:48,010
You actually have to get to know your employees.

715
00:35:48,010 --> 00:35:54,883
One of my pet peeves was working with a manager many years ago and I was like, Hey, what's
the, what's this person's husband name?

716
00:35:54,883 --> 00:35:55,793
She's like, I don't know.

717
00:35:55,793 --> 00:35:59,204
I'm like, dude, like you gotta man, like you gotta know about them.

718
00:35:59,204 --> 00:36:03,225
This isn't just like work stuff, one-on-ones, like you gotta know like what's their dog's
name?

719
00:36:03,225 --> 00:36:04,626
What's their husband's name?

720
00:36:04,626 --> 00:36:05,956
What do they do on the weekend?

721
00:36:05,956 --> 00:36:11,467
So like, I kind of would gut check some of my managers and be like, are you managing them
or are you just telling them what to do?

722
00:36:11,467 --> 00:36:12,497
Like, do you know about them?

723
00:36:12,497 --> 00:36:13,368
Do you care about them?

724
00:36:13,368 --> 00:36:16,308
Because you can never lead well if you don't care on a deeper level.

725
00:36:16,308 --> 00:36:18,426
So that's something I see a lot of managers do.

726
00:36:18,426 --> 00:36:19,109
like, hey, what's my name?

727
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:20,139
What's my wife's name?

728
00:36:20,139 --> 00:36:20,750
you don't know it?

729
00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:21,790
How are you managing me?

730
00:36:21,790 --> 00:36:22,880
And again, like.

731
00:36:23,148 --> 00:36:27,141
So really, really kind of focus on like, do you give a shit about your employees?

732
00:36:27,141 --> 00:36:29,078
Cause if you don't, it's going to be obvious.

733
00:36:29,078 --> 00:36:30,520
It's going to be obvious.

734
00:36:30,754 --> 00:36:33,114
that is a mic drop right there.

735
00:36:33,114 --> 00:36:35,475
Do you know them deeper?

736
00:36:36,815 --> 00:36:37,696
I love that.

737
00:36:37,696 --> 00:36:38,236
I love that.

738
00:36:38,236 --> 00:36:41,417
And that's something that I think people take for granted.

739
00:36:41,417 --> 00:36:44,398
Leaders take for granted, individuals take for granted.

740
00:36:44,398 --> 00:36:53,240
especially if you work in the office or like right now, you can see in my backdrop, there
are probably three or four things that you could call out.

741
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:55,140
Hey, it's Sunny there.

742
00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:57,227
I love your office, which you've said.

743
00:36:57,227 --> 00:37:06,734
You know, there are ways that you can observe your team member without making it an
awkward, like, so tell me about everything in your life, because how do you make it an

744
00:37:06,734 --> 00:37:07,925
organic conversation?

745
00:37:07,925 --> 00:37:09,927
But just sit back and observe.

746
00:37:09,927 --> 00:37:14,130
And I believe some of the best leaders are masters of observation.

747
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:19,594
They can see that you've got a badge on your backpack that says, I don't know, Iron Man.

748
00:37:19,594 --> 00:37:20,395
Whoa, cool.

749
00:37:20,395 --> 00:37:23,046
Did you do that or was that a family member's, right?

750
00:37:23,046 --> 00:37:24,197
Like, how do you...

751
00:37:24,471 --> 00:37:30,430
How do you continue to evolve that conversation just through observing some of the things
that your team cares about?

752
00:37:30,430 --> 00:37:32,532
It's just like observing their strengths,

753
00:37:33,278 --> 00:37:33,679
God.

754
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:37,461
could not agree more and what I see managers mess up so much is they flip it, right?

755
00:37:37,461 --> 00:37:42,623
They'll give, if there's a pyramid of the best management style, I'm making this up, so
just bear with me.

756
00:37:42,623 --> 00:37:45,994
The top is like personal getting to know them on a human level.

757
00:37:45,994 --> 00:37:51,487
If that medium level is giving feedback, sometimes they'll skip that first level and start
getting feedback.

758
00:37:51,487 --> 00:38:00,681
So what I tell my managers like 70, 30, like when you're talking to your employees is like
70 % should be personable because majority of the time the work stuff is impacted by that.

759
00:38:00,681 --> 00:38:03,642
Like, hey, you looked, you kind of underperformed what's going on.

760
00:38:03,642 --> 00:38:07,617
they're just focusing on work, might be like, yo dude, my child was up last night till 4
a.m.

761
00:38:07,617 --> 00:38:09,409
sick, like I haven't slept in a couple hours.

762
00:38:09,409 --> 00:38:12,593
Whoa, now I have a different level of empathy with them.

763
00:38:12,593 --> 00:38:14,285
So again,

764
00:38:14,974 --> 00:38:17,585
As a manager, have to be able for that.

765
00:38:17,585 --> 00:38:23,208
You have to build a way where they respect you and they're not going to respect you if
they know you do not care about them.

766
00:38:23,208 --> 00:38:24,168
And it can't be fake.

767
00:38:24,168 --> 00:38:25,139
Like give me your dog's name.

768
00:38:25,139 --> 00:38:25,396
Okay.

769
00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:25,879
Writing it down.

770
00:38:25,879 --> 00:38:26,509
Like Dixie.

771
00:38:26,509 --> 00:38:27,080
Cool.

772
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:27,780
Like that's Dixie.

773
00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:28,480
What's your wife's name?

774
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:28,770
Cool.

775
00:38:28,770 --> 00:38:29,071
Claire.

776
00:38:29,071 --> 00:38:29,371
Right?

777
00:38:29,371 --> 00:38:34,523
Like doing it that way, but like intentionally asking them questions, digging deeper.

778
00:38:34,523 --> 00:38:36,054
love your point on observation.

779
00:38:36,054 --> 00:38:38,055
Like, yeah, dude, you got two tennis balls back there.

780
00:38:38,055 --> 00:38:39,055
Like you've been playing lately.

781
00:38:39,055 --> 00:38:40,606
What's going on?

782
00:38:40,646 --> 00:38:44,848
So if a good manager takes, let's say you have a month of one-on-ones, how would

783
00:38:44,848 --> 00:38:53,768
let's say spend 70 % of those one-on-ones talking to them as a human, and then post that
month, your management style is gonna be so much better, because you know about them.

784
00:38:53,768 --> 00:38:54,488
What are they doing?

785
00:38:54,488 --> 00:38:55,968
What do they care about?

786
00:38:56,008 --> 00:38:59,628
But taking that little front end work is gonna be so much valuable versus.

787
00:38:59,918 --> 00:39:03,458
Okay, I hired you, I'm your new manager, did you make 100 calls last night?

788
00:39:03,478 --> 00:39:05,238
Did you have X amount of talk time?

789
00:39:05,238 --> 00:39:11,018
Like, they're gonna burn out, they're gonna leave, you're not gonna be good management,
and then you're gonna be frustrated with how your team's performing.

790
00:39:11,258 --> 00:39:16,670
How would you want to be led as a employee and then apply that to your team members?

791
00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:17,951
absolutely.

792
00:39:18,613 --> 00:39:20,776
Just reminded me when you were like, what's your dog's name?

793
00:39:20,776 --> 00:39:21,767
What's your wife's name?

794
00:39:21,767 --> 00:39:24,041
Just what's your bank number?

795
00:39:24,041 --> 00:39:25,903
What's your bank card number, right?

796
00:39:26,224 --> 00:39:27,102
Yeah.

797
00:39:27,102 --> 00:39:30,222
last word is your social, like, what's going on here?

798
00:39:30,222 --> 00:39:31,378
So, I don't know.

799
00:39:31,378 --> 00:39:33,891
probably send the wrong idea.

800
00:39:33,965 --> 00:39:37,021
No, I've loved this conversation.

801
00:39:37,021 --> 00:39:45,249
I think that there's, we definitely need a part two because there's so much we can dive
into, but I will ask you one final summary question.

802
00:39:47,373 --> 00:39:49,885
deciding between two questions right now.

803
00:39:50,732 --> 00:39:51,488
I've got time.

804
00:39:51,488 --> 00:39:52,873
That's my birthday chip.

805
00:39:52,999 --> 00:39:54,219
We got all day.

806
00:39:54,461 --> 00:40:00,270
We talked about a lot of skills, so hard skills and soft skills.

807
00:40:00,270 --> 00:40:08,331
In your opinion, what do you think is the most underrated soft skill that really makes a
leader effective?

808
00:40:11,502 --> 00:40:12,862
Some people might disagree with me.

809
00:40:12,862 --> 00:40:18,422
I think body language is one of the most underutilized and under trained soft skill there
is.

810
00:40:18,422 --> 00:40:22,920
Like, if you observe, and what I always tell people is like...

811
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,332
Observe some people you you look up to right?

812
00:40:26,332 --> 00:40:36,206
I don't care if it's Beyonce to You're watching Mad Men and asking like why does John
draper's just seem so cool and confident And you'll realize a lot of that comes out in a

813
00:40:36,206 --> 00:40:36,877
body language.

814
00:40:36,877 --> 00:40:39,398
I'm a big proponent of like how are you sitting?

815
00:40:39,398 --> 00:40:40,919
Are you looking them in the eye?

816
00:40:40,919 --> 00:40:44,830
Are you taking up space when you're supposed to be confident when you're really interested
in someone?

817
00:40:44,830 --> 00:40:47,431
Are you leaning up and getting really up in their stuff, right?

818
00:40:47,431 --> 00:40:52,784
Like all this can indicate so much and I think There's this weird evolutionary stuff

819
00:40:52,784 --> 00:40:54,564
of confidence, right?

820
00:40:54,564 --> 00:40:57,364
It's like, why do people say chin up, neck out?

821
00:40:57,364 --> 00:41:00,404
When you understand it, it's like, yeah, because those are your vulnerable areas, right?

822
00:41:00,404 --> 00:41:02,864
When we're running around as cavemen, a lion is going to come up and eat it.

823
00:41:02,864 --> 00:41:06,844
But you're saying to the world, I'm open and I'm confident.

824
00:41:06,844 --> 00:41:09,464
So I don't see enough people utilize it.

825
00:41:09,464 --> 00:41:11,044
It's hard on Zoom, right?

826
00:41:11,044 --> 00:41:12,484
You can't see that I'm sitting back.

827
00:41:12,484 --> 00:41:18,624
My legs are crossed and taking up space, but it's almost just as important versus I'm
looking anxious.

828
00:41:18,624 --> 00:41:19,484
I'm hunched over.

829
00:41:19,484 --> 00:41:21,524
I'm trying to protect those sensitive areas, right?

830
00:41:21,524 --> 00:41:22,704
Like that is with us.

831
00:41:22,704 --> 00:41:24,044
hitting is I'm not confident.

832
00:41:24,044 --> 00:41:25,304
I'm trying to protect that area.

833
00:41:25,304 --> 00:41:33,644
So I think it's understudied, underutilized, but if you watch the greats, you'll notice
like, dude, when Beyonce is sitting, she's taking up space, she looks all cool.

834
00:41:33,644 --> 00:41:36,424
You're like, dude, she is just freaking confident.

835
00:41:36,424 --> 00:41:41,414
So that is my most underrated skill that I don't see people actively training or getting
better.

836
00:41:41,453 --> 00:41:42,653
I love that.

837
00:41:42,653 --> 00:41:46,893
You were the only person to have said body language so far.

838
00:41:47,113 --> 00:41:49,813
And I definitely agree with you.

839
00:41:49,813 --> 00:41:53,413
I think it is so powerful.

840
00:41:54,633 --> 00:42:02,913
yeah, it's one of the, a woman who's five foot three, I understand that, yeah, yeah, I'm
small.

841
00:42:04,413 --> 00:42:05,713
I'm small.

842
00:42:05,713 --> 00:42:08,333
But when I first meet people, they say, oh, I thought you were bigger.

843
00:42:08,333 --> 00:42:10,093
I thought you were taller than that.

844
00:42:10,168 --> 00:42:11,220
Mmm.

845
00:42:12,073 --> 00:42:13,173
down to energy, right?

846
00:42:13,173 --> 00:42:15,554
Taking up space on a plane, all those things.

847
00:42:15,554 --> 00:42:20,936
And it's not to walk around like this, but it's just what is your, what's your energy
saying?

848
00:42:20,936 --> 00:42:22,977
What can people expect from you?

849
00:42:22,977 --> 00:42:24,458
And yeah, it exudes confidence.

850
00:42:24,458 --> 00:42:27,739
So I love that answer.

851
00:42:29,953 --> 00:42:33,181
It's hard on zoom, but I would say that.

852
00:42:33,215 --> 00:42:34,780
always recommend look around.

853
00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:35,531
You go to dinner.

854
00:42:35,531 --> 00:42:36,843
What people look cool, right?

855
00:42:36,843 --> 00:42:37,975
Like what people look confident.

856
00:42:37,975 --> 00:42:39,587
It's not about looking cool and confident, right?

857
00:42:39,587 --> 00:42:40,617
But it's like...

858
00:42:40,664 --> 00:42:46,630
There is this energy that pushes out as you structure your body language, because it comes
down to how much air are you intaking?

859
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:47,491
Where's your blood flowing?

860
00:42:47,491 --> 00:42:49,103
There's a weird science to it.

861
00:42:49,103 --> 00:42:52,706
There's these four guys on YouTube called the behavior panelists.

862
00:42:52,706 --> 00:42:54,308
It's one of my favorite YouTube.

863
00:42:54,308 --> 00:42:57,671
They will just analyze, like, they work in FBI and CIA.

864
00:42:57,671 --> 00:43:00,453
All they do is analyze body language, whether it's like.

865
00:43:01,262 --> 00:43:06,882
Amber Heard talking on the stand, like they're analyzing that versus like someone in
politics.

866
00:43:06,882 --> 00:43:08,582
I always recommend like study it, watch it.

867
00:43:08,582 --> 00:43:12,602
You'll be very aware of like, okay, when people lie, they usually like scratch or touch
their hair.

868
00:43:12,602 --> 00:43:15,622
So it's like all these little, exactly, right?

869
00:43:15,622 --> 00:43:17,722
Like my poor wife's like, I'm like, I caught you.

870
00:43:17,722 --> 00:43:18,802
You're bad at this, right?

871
00:43:18,802 --> 00:43:20,082
Like, I know you're not doing this.

872
00:43:20,082 --> 00:43:20,922
She's like, it.

873
00:43:20,922 --> 00:43:23,974
But I think that's one of the understudied.

874
00:43:24,410 --> 00:43:25,350
underestimated soft skill.

875
00:43:25,350 --> 00:43:30,490
Everyone talks about how your tone is, you're speaking up, ending on a downward pitch
versus upward pitch.

876
00:43:30,490 --> 00:43:33,670
But I'm like, I don't know if people talk about how to sit, take up space.

877
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:37,790
And unfortunately we live in a world where appearances matter so much.

878
00:43:37,790 --> 00:43:39,150
I wish they didn't, but they do.

879
00:43:39,150 --> 00:43:44,057
So it's how you dress, how's your energy, all that stuff matters so much, especially in
the business world.

880
00:43:44,057 --> 00:43:47,639
And can I just provide you with my hot take on body language?

881
00:43:48,899 --> 00:43:56,643
okay, biggest pet peeve when people go to have an intense, well, I shouldn't say intense,
but a serious conversation.

882
00:43:56,643 --> 00:44:04,566
So a constructive conversation and they sit across a boardroom table from the person
receiving that information.

883
00:44:04,566 --> 00:44:08,508
You are now completely creating an energetic cut between you.

884
00:44:08,508 --> 00:44:11,429
You're putting yourself at a me versus you.

885
00:44:11,445 --> 00:44:22,551
I always say, that conversation, turn, sit at the side of a table so your heart's facing
them and there's nothing blocking you in between or don't even have a table between you.

886
00:44:22,551 --> 00:44:27,393
But I always watch that and I think you're sitting down for a negotiation.

887
00:44:27,393 --> 00:44:33,307
That person is immediately coming in like, this is me versus you rather than, hey, we're
on the same team here.

888
00:44:35,394 --> 00:44:36,075
I love that.

889
00:44:36,075 --> 00:44:42,638
I've never, see this is why it's so cool studying that, cause like when you said it,
goosebumps made sense, like heart to heart.

890
00:44:42,638 --> 00:44:47,358
I'm noticing some of my best conversations I'm sitting next to him versus like this weird
divide, right?

891
00:44:47,358 --> 00:44:49,138
What a great hot take.

892
00:44:49,138 --> 00:44:50,598
And I will say a funny story on this.

893
00:44:50,598 --> 00:44:56,018
So I went to pitch this guy didn't work out cause he's a little, he's a little out there,
very wealthy in Buckhead, Atlanta.

894
00:44:56,018 --> 00:44:57,098
It's like this town.

895
00:44:57,098 --> 00:44:58,518
He was very small.

896
00:44:58,518 --> 00:45:06,190
No, no, no issue with that, but he built his office where his desk was higher and he put
his two seats lower.

897
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:08,130
So he's maybe like five, five, I'm six, three.

898
00:45:08,130 --> 00:45:09,670
And I'm just looking up to him.

899
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:11,710
Like he was very intentional about this energy.

900
00:45:11,710 --> 00:45:14,130
Like he wanted to exude power.

901
00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:16,650
So I'm like, again, if I wasn't very aware, I'd just be like, cool.

902
00:45:16,650 --> 00:45:18,950
These seats are a little bit smaller, but I found that out.

903
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:23,790
I'm like, okay, this is this weird energy divide he's creating and hearing you talk about
it.

904
00:45:23,790 --> 00:45:30,770
I'm like, gosh, feedback does go so much better when you're just sitting side to side with
them, like having that heart to heart versus a table.

905
00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:31,890
Dang, I just learned something.

906
00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:33,610
Kendra, I love it.

907
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:35,332
It's a great hot take.

908
00:45:35,332 --> 00:45:37,153
gosh, I'm just picturing that now.

909
00:45:37,153 --> 00:45:39,754
That made me feel awkward just imagining that.

910
00:45:39,754 --> 00:45:42,916
It's kind of like a judge, right?

911
00:45:42,916 --> 00:45:45,850
Being up in the, yeah, funny.

912
00:45:45,850 --> 00:45:48,570
It was with Brooke, my CEO, and she was like, I'm not sitting down.

913
00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:49,570
I was like, I love you.

914
00:45:49,570 --> 00:45:51,210
Just like immediately was like, I ain't sitting down.

915
00:45:51,210 --> 00:45:51,990
I'm standing up.

916
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:53,710
I was like, you are such a bad ass.

917
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:55,330
Cause we both picked it up right away.

918
00:45:55,330 --> 00:45:57,350
We're like, this is weird, isn't it?

919
00:45:57,350 --> 00:45:57,510
it.

920
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:58,030
I'm standing up.

921
00:45:58,030 --> 00:45:59,689
was like, that's why I love you.

922
00:45:59,689 --> 00:46:00,550
That's why you're in the best.

923
00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:02,190
Like I'm going to follow you forever.

924
00:46:02,190 --> 00:46:03,530
Like just immediately do it.

925
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:04,750
So funny.

926
00:46:05,810 --> 00:46:06,750
Oh, she's great.

927
00:46:06,750 --> 00:46:07,790
She's awesome.

928
00:46:07,790 --> 00:46:09,336
We're getting her on a pod here soon.

929
00:46:09,336 --> 00:46:09,726
good.

930
00:46:09,726 --> 00:46:10,726
Okay.

931
00:46:11,147 --> 00:46:14,910
With that, mean, part two coming soon, definitely.

932
00:46:14,910 --> 00:46:18,593
But Ben, thank you so much for the awesome chat.

933
00:46:18,593 --> 00:46:21,495
I think there's, like I said, we're so aligned.

934
00:46:21,495 --> 00:46:22,656
This was a ton of fun.

935
00:46:22,656 --> 00:46:24,827
I can't believe it's done already.

936
00:46:24,827 --> 00:46:28,619
Yeah, absolutely flew by.

937
00:46:29,441 --> 00:46:30,276
My pleasure.

938
00:46:30,276 --> 00:46:30,970
I loved it.

939
00:46:30,970 --> 00:46:36,756
The more I get to know you and I can't recommend anyone, I mean obviously they're
listening to you now, but like go check out more of your stuff.

940
00:46:36,756 --> 00:46:40,521
I love your reels, love what you're posting, your thought process, very intentional.

941
00:46:40,521 --> 00:46:42,918
And then you have that sarcasm, which just makes me love you even more.

942
00:46:42,918 --> 00:46:51,326
I appreciate that feeling is mutual and you know, they're listening to the podcast right
now because they know, hopefully know where to find me, but where can people find you?

943
00:46:52,492 --> 00:46:54,645
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn business wise.

944
00:46:54,645 --> 00:46:56,557
Don't my Instagram is more personal stuff.

945
00:46:56,557 --> 00:46:58,705
Good luck trying to find me on that post and memes and stuff.

946
00:46:58,705 --> 00:46:59,109
Just kidding.

947
00:46:59,109 --> 00:47:00,831
That looks like it's private.

948
00:47:00,961 --> 00:47:04,305
so follow me on LinkedIn, Mark awake on Instagram.

949
00:47:04,305 --> 00:47:05,577
My social team does so good.

950
00:47:05,577 --> 00:47:08,800
And if you want to check out my golf stuff, it's Richmond sport.

951
00:47:08,940 --> 00:47:11,403
we do golf prints and golf hats, all the above.

952
00:47:11,403 --> 00:47:14,135
It's been incredible building that out, but yeah, can find me on all those.

953
00:47:14,135 --> 00:47:14,626
Amazing.

954
00:47:14,626 --> 00:47:15,893
Well, thank you again.

955
00:47:15,893 --> 00:47:17,519
And we'll chat soon.

956
00:47:18,481 --> 00:47:19,431
All right.