What the wits were right before.
beautiful.
Well, Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to join me for what is bound to be a very engaging, entertaining and informative conversation.
I know that we have a lot of alignment on many different philosophies, approaches to leadership and just communication in general.
So really excited to dive into all of the, you know, the experiences that you've had, your journey and also bring in some of our mutual heritage.
both being Scottish, you I think there's a lot that we can share in different ways that we've been raised in communication, yes, experiences and expectations.
So before we dive into all of that, I would love if you could just give our listeners a little bit of a summary about you, who you are, your journey to this point, and some of
the cool things you're up to right
Beautiful.
First, Kendra, thanks for having me.
This is gonna be fun.
Let's do it.
Let's have a good conversation.
Background on myself.
So currently I am VP of marketing at Markawake.
We're an agency out of Atlanta, got about 60 people.
Started with them almost eight years ago.
It just five of us.
We've grown so much the last couple of years, which has been incredible, but really focused on all digital, which I'm sure we'll talk about here in a second.
Sandbox like playground wise.
also am an owner of a e-commerce brand called Richmond sports.
We do golf related items.
I'm partnered with three of my best friends on that.
It has been so fun.
So we've been doing that for about five years, which has been incredible.
And then I don't know, just like doing other fun stuff.
Got a great wife, got married not too long ago, um, picked up jujitsu last year.
So that's been taking most of my time casually, you know, just get my butt beat all the time.
Uh, and I'm sure we'll kind of go into background, but.
really like the creative side of things.
You know, I've been doing art my whole life.
Worked in a kitchen for many years, which I'd love to go into, but loved food, clearly.
And that really helped kind of dictate how I work.
last decade, deep in the business space, deep in marketing, and just fell in love with it.
Amazing.
Wow.
You hit us with a lot of, there are a lot of moving parts there.
You are, yeah, yeah, a dynamic person.
And I have to say after this, I need the link to the golf store because as an avid golfer, I feel like, yes.
my God.
Thank you.
Yeah.
okay.
Best day ever.
Wow.
All right.
Let's cancel this.
We're turning the episode off.
done here.
Yes.
I think so.
Yes.
Yeah.
Awesome.
mean, see, this is the power of conversation.
You don't know what you don't know until you start to draw it out.
So golf, jujitsu, kitchen work.
Obviously you've worked in hospitality.
Like that all makes sense.
Yes.
Which it sounds like is all just ebb and flowing to where you're at now.
So talk to me a little bit about with all of those interests, hobbies and let's call them very, very impressive skills.
Why marketing?
Ooh, okay, let me back up a tad.
So after Kitchen World, right?
I worked in sales, you know, it was kind of the pop out of college, studied political science.
I was just reading like the Salem witch trials.
I didn't know what I wanted to do, right?
I just liked reading about history.
So, you know, with no hard skills at all, what did me and all my friends do?
We jumped into sales.
It was like, cool, we're friendly.
We're all fraternity together.
Let's go sell some stuff.
Loved it.
Did pharmaceutical sales for a long time.
Did software sales.
But there's just something different where I had this creativity.
I always liked drawing and doing painting.
I always liked making videos.
So when I got the opportunity to start at Mark Wake, mean Brooke, the CEO, she really pitched the idea and the vision.
And obviously she got me, right?
Like I've been there for eight years.
The way it was kind of articulated was, okay, you're picking up the phone 100 times a day making sales calls.
Imagine if you could run an ad that reaches a million people with less work.
And it was just like, okay, this is the coolest thing ever, right?
I love making sure, love teaching people how to purchase things, but really just like, how do I provide value to them?
How do I entertain them?
And I could do that a little bit in sales, but I could do that scale and marketing.
So she brought me in, taught me, but that was really the most pivotal moment where I was like, okay, marketing is the coolest thing ever.
There's companies who were like, we don't need marketing.
We just have sales teams.
I'm like, okay, flip it.
What if you're a B2C brand?
Like you don't really need salespeople.
I can market to you and really drive, drive sales that way.
So.
fell in love with it, fell in love with different tactics, whether that was SEO, really like gamifying it.
Granted SEO has changed so much in the last 10 years, but fell in love with ads, SEO, social media, fell in love with design.
So that was kind of the pivotal moment and I loved it, right?
Like pharmaceutical sales were great, but just calling a hundred people every day, just getting hung up on, I got people next to me in a different cubicle calling fax machines
because they've got to their number, right?
Like they're just, so was like, man, let's do marketing.
And that's kind of, that's kind of the pivotal moment that changed it.
And I felt for the first time in my life I had hard skills.
Sales is a hard skill, I do believe it, but it's just a little different versus I can go into your website, update it, and build you an ad that starts producing money really fast.
I fell in love with that aspect of it.
Wow.
A couple of really, really key points that stood out to me there.
First of all, kudos to your CEO, Brooke, for knowing the vision.
Yeah.
Knowing the vision, selling that, I have, I don't think I've ever heard marketing as being described as sales to scale, at scale, I should say, right?
That makes so much sense.
Yes, you can pick up the phone and call a hundred people, or you can put out an ad that reaches a thousand.
So that...
Yeah, something just clicked in my brain there where you said that.
And I believe that's strong leadership too, right?
Get people bought into the vision and you aligned with that.
And eight years later, here you are.
So pretty amazing stuff.
Yeah.
Well, have you noticed like, think about like the sales gurus right now, and I don't wanna call them gurus, cause they're awesome.
Like you got the Alex or Moesies, even if you wanna go a little bit weird, it's like the Grant Card owns all of them.
Like they're spending more time marketing than they are selling now, right?
Like they're creating content videos.
So it was just that different level of like even a modern day salesperson, I'm always giving advice of like push LinkedIn content, create videos.
it's like, selling's changed so much, but.
You can go at a higher rate versus picking up the phone every day or going door to door versus marketing.
And again, to your point of vision setting, like I'm sure we're going to talk about this.
That is half, if not more of leadership, right?
It's, it's the understanding of why you're doing what you're doing.
If they can cast that immediately, it was like, okay.
And I'll tell you, I told Brooke when she was like, come work for me until you find your dream job.
I was like, I'll give you three months contract.
Like I just want to come help you for a little bit.
And I'm going to dip out.
And she was like, no, you're doing six months.
I was like, okay.
Right.
Like.
marketing is kind of weird.
What are we just running social ads?
That was eight years ago.
So literally got me hook, lion, sinker, fell in love with it.
no looking back and just we'll market till I'm
yeah, wow.
Six months, yes, turns into eight years.
That's like, just come, drink.
Come have one drink, right?
that's, that is exactly what it was.
And we worked together in the past.
We had this crazy job where we worked for like Roku right when it came out.
So me and her were traveling the country.
We would go to like movies.
We'd go to radio stations and movies, literally three months of us just traveling, talking to people about Roku.
This was like OG Roku.
It had like Flappy Bird or whatever on the remote.
So we worked together and we're like, love working together.
That's kind when I fell in love with like, how do I even talk to people or like people in the eyes?
So did that.
And then a couple of years later we met again and started doing Mark awake and it's been incredible.
incredible indeed.
That's super awesome.
I mean, obviously you've had some pivots, you've had some shifts, you've had some highs and with every high there's some kind of valley that inevitably we all face.
So what are some of the hurdles that you found, especially in moving through MarketWake for eight years, you're now in a leadership role.
What were some of the...
if you wanna call them valleys or lessons that you learned along the way.
Yeah.
Man, I would say one big one was actually the last couple of years.
We had just absolute ridiculous growth for the first couple of years and then it slowed down a little bit.
We still grew every year, right?
So it's like, you know, we just had high expectations, but really kind of understanding like, why aren't we growing at the rate we want to?
So how do adjust what we're doing a little bit?
Cause at end of day, it's like, how do I provide more value to my clients?
And most of my clients are paying us to make them more money.
Like let's not get it twisted.
We're in marketing.
You know, they don't, care about impressions, but those impressions have to lead to sales.
So those, those hard times were figuring out like, okay, why is what I'm doing for one client crushing it and one client, it's not working at all, which was very tough at first
because you have these methodologies you're applying to 10, 20, 30 different clients and certain industries, it works great and certain industries doesn't.
So we really had to learn like a one size fits all just is never.
Right?
You can't just look at every client and be like, you need to run paid ads.
You need to do SEO and you need to do social.
Okay.
What does that mean?
Right?
So we really had to look at if we're not growing at the rate we're wanting to, how are we going to provide more value to our clients?
And then we had to kind of adjust what we're doing, which is, which is the purpose of messing up.
Right?
Like that's the, that's the fun part.
Once you have that in your mindset, you're like, okay, this isn't a bad thing.
This is a good thing.
So I would say that was one of the pivotal changes.
And then the leadership style, I remember
I've kind of like done some sort of leadership my whole life.
It's like football is present of my fraternity, but I remember coming into this job, leading this team, and I was kind of talking to, not even a mentor, just someone who's
been leading for a long time.
And he was like, you have to have a one-on-one individual management style for each employee.
And I was like, what?
Like, I just had style.
Like this was Ben, this is how I manage.
And then I'm like, oh no.
Like each person requires a different love.
Each person requires a different.
feedback, like some people love the radical side where it's like, fling it to me, tell me.
Other people don't, right?
So have to kind of approach a little bit differently.
So I would say learning to treat the people you manage as very specific individuals with different strategies with one of those learning curves.
had to learn.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny how they internally and externally with clients and with your team members, it's the same reflection, right?
And I find that that's often mirrored that one size across the board doesn't fit all, which is an important lesson.
I know it seems so obvious, right?
You're like, duh.
But then when you're in it as a young kid, like trying to manage team members, like, this is my style.
Here's how I'm to do it.
Like I'm going to be open and communicative.
And you're like, well, that person doesn't like, like this style as much.
got to adapt it.
So I think that's with anything marketing strategies, relationship building.
It's gotta be very personable.
Yeah.
communication has to shift and adjust, which is something that I want to dive into with you because we spoke early on and if anybody's craft your LinkedIn, they would know that
you feel a certain kind of way about Slack communication.
And yeah, I just want to rip the bandaid off and get right into it.
So naturally in a team, I told you this would come up early.
Naturally in a team.
Different people have different communication styles, they have different preferences, but you also want some kind of cohesiveness across an organization to make sure that, you
know, you're not just blasting a message out into the stratosphere and nobody responds.
So talk to me a little bit about communication styles and preferences for you as a leader and then some of the tools that you use or prefer not to use.
All right, let's dive in.
This is a hot take.
I post about it LinkedIn.
Sorry if the people listening have already heard it.
I gotta be careful with how I say this.
I dislike Slack for many reasons.
I like it for very different reasons.
But if you're using that as your primary communication source, I'm gonna call you lazy and ineffective.
Because everyone knows, we know 100 % that majority communication has...
nothing to do with the words you're saying.
It's tonality, it's body language, it's how you're saying it, it's their sarcasm.
And Slack just rips that option away from you.
And I've noticed this, I noticed this early on with working with remote people.
I have a theory, it builds natural paranoia.
It just does.
Like if you're communicating with your boss through 90 % Slack, you're gonna have these weird thoughts.
I've noticed myself, right?
CEO hits me up, hey, where is this?
I'm like, she's freaking out, she's mad at me.
And then I walk into her office, she's like, yo dude, send it over to me.
I want to help you build it.
I'm like, okay.
So if this is happening to me, I'm supposed to be the confident leader.
Of course this is going to be happening to a 21 year old who just graduated college and is like, we communicate through Slack.
So something I tell my managers, I manage is Slack is your, Slack is great for just quick communication, but if there's ever anything serious, you cannot touch Slack.
And I've found myself mess up on this, right?
I'm like, if I'm frustrated, I'm slacking someone, I'm like, stop.
There's no way this can be handled well.
And I'm sure we're going to talk about this in a second.
am, if sarcasm level, mine is at like a 30 out of 10.
It is just nonstop.
My poor wife probably gets exhausted by it.
But I noticed sarcasm so hard in Slack, right?
It's like, is he serious?
Is he not serious?
So was like, stop.
Avoid Slack at all costs.
There is something beautiful for Slack and email to have a paper trail.
I get that, right?
Having that communication.
But at the end of the day, your primary should be face to face.
And if you're a remote company, you can't do that.
It is phone calls or zooms, right?
Even if it isn't a zoom because there is some like lack of personability.
Sometimes I think a phone call is better.
Great, you can't see their face and things like that.
having the ability to hear the tonality and then having that direct feedback versus just we're slacking like it's a O L message.
And I'm in my nine year old, making sure my parents don't see it.
I'm slacking some stuff.
So.
Hot take, avoid Slack at all costs, primary face-to-face communication.
I'm sorry, like, I don't wanna diss Slack.
I think it's one of the coolest tools ever, right?
Like, it is so important for industries, but I've seen so many companies just destroy culture because that's how they're communicating to their team.
And managers do it because it's easier, but it's not gonna provide more value.
So quit being lazy, avoid Slack, pick up the phone, do more Zoom calls.
Love it.
Hot take for sure.
But accurate, accurate.
Honestly, because it's true.
I mean, having come from sales, you know the whole, what is it?
The whole bit.
Can they still hear you smiling when you hang up the phone?
Right?
You can still to some degree understand the emotion behind, of course, your tonality, but you get a sense of how someone's feeling.
what's your take on voice notes then?
Ooh, I kinda like voice notes.
I got a lot of employees, I love them.
They'll just voice note me all the time.
My little sister does that.
Like, I haven't gotten a text from my little sister in years.
It's just voice notes.
So the way I look at this is like, it's a little spectrum, right?
If Slack is the very most narrow version, like, okay, if you have Slack, emojis, because you can show personalities.
That broadens it up a little bit.
Okay, you're on a phone, or you're doing voicemail.
I can now hear your tonality in your voice.
I don't know more serious to conversation.
think the more breadth of ability to understand the human human interaction, how are they sitting?
What do their eyes look like?
Are they upset?
What is this?
Like opening up that spectrum for more serious conversation is super important, but I also get very clearly time is of the essence.
There's times I hop out of a meeting, run to the bathroom because I'm feeding four hours and I'm slacking my slacking.
One of my coworkers, Hey, send me this doc so I can help you with it.
That is absolutely needed.
But if you're asking like very specific, like, Hey, how'd that feedback go?
Or Hey,
If another hot take, if a manager leaves feedback in Slack and I've caught myself doing this, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
So yes, avoid that at all costs.
I will double down on that.
Feedback should not be sent in writing in any capacity.
Maybe, yes, formally followed up afterwards with a paper trail as you mentioned, just for formality's sake, but otherwise you were opening up a world of headaches and redundancy
because you're gonna have to have the conversation again, right?
Because they're not gonna be happy.
It's not gonna land well.
You nailed it.
And I think, I think the follow-up is crucial.
There's a great book called effective executive broke my boss, like made me read it.
She's like, Hey, you should read this.
You know, I'm like catching the hits.
Like, okay, I got you.
Right.
One of the biggest things is like that follow-up.
And that was something I was kind of like, not the best at, right?
Like I'm a little bit more opposite of type a I'm a little bit more like creative, less organized, you know, that kind of personality.
So I realized early on, I was like, cool, have those conversations with the team members, give them feedback, et cetera.
but then use that written form to send a follow up.
Hey, here's what we talked about.
Here's when we're doing this.
Here's the deadlines, et cetera.
That's the best form of communication on the follow through as a manager, but in any serious conversation, if your manager hasn't picked up the phone and called you in a
while, red flag, right?
So always face to face communication first.
fantastic.
And one thing I really want to highlight, and this is what I appreciated in our first conversation, and obviously we bonded over our Scottish heritage, but you also have a very
high degree of self-awareness.
So you know, you know that your sarcasm could be misconstrued, but that is one of your communication styles, right?
That's, and it's also a love language.
If you're Scottish, you know.
but you know yourself well enough to say, if I send this through Slack, it's probably going to be misconstrued.
Therefore, if I know that I'm being sarcastic, I should pick up the phone or I should add an emoji.
But I think there's not just understanding that one size doesn't fit all for our team members, but also for ourselves and recognizing how we communicate and how we show up,
because then that will help us understand who's on the other side, who's on the receiving side.
So for...
for a little bit more fun.
Talk to me about your communication style.
And again, this is something that's near and dear to my heart because my fiance, bless him, we communicate with sarcasm.
And sometimes I think if people could hear us, they'd be like, is she okay?
But it's all in good fun.
So how does that show up with your team for people who might not be used to a certain sense of humor?
And we can call it, know, any kind of sense of humor, but we're gonna...
dial into the Scottish side, yeah.
It's a good question, right?
early on I was definitely very personal, had a good group of friends, so I like, think everyone really likes the sarcasm side, and then I kinda realized, some people do, you
know?
Some people, it goes right over their head, they do not get it.
So I always kinda thought about this, I think a good leader remembers those jobs working in the kitchen, or being a kid, or having those thoughts, so I noticed early on, was like,
cool, if my boss has asked me something over Slack, I get a little worried about it, I'm very aware of that, so do I wanna do that to my team members in the future?
self-aware of how you felt in those positions really helps.
And then I would say, know, I like sarcasm because
I'm one of those guys who I have this motto, it's very stoic, it's momentum worry, right?
It's like, remember you're going to die.
So I don't want to go through life not laughing as much as possible.
There are some times I really want to get serious and down dirty with it, but there's also times where I'm like, I will say this to my team.
Like, will I be thinking about this when I'm old and gray?
Right?
No.
So let's, let's have some fun with it.
Let's do the best we can.
Let's work with our friends.
Let's make money with our friends.
Like really kind of layering that.
But it does allow you to, if you're always positive, not always, if you're
mostly positive, you have a good mindset about it, you are sarcastic.
If you do need to have those very direct conversations, it's not a, well he always is mad.
Like this is just his norm, right?
It's like, he is being serious for once, because I haven't seen him serious at this level in months.
So it allows some ability to kind of see that as like a different talking style, but I will always leave within sarcasm.
It clearly is for my father, he was very Scottish, my sisters are the exact same way, like we, my poor mother, she's even
sarcastic as hell.
is truly how we just talk to each other.
It is a love language.
But kind of early on, I had to realize some people love it.
Some people don't.
Most people love having fun and just like joking about things.
But there's also times I realize, okay, you need to be serious because they don't really get sarcasm and this could be taken the wrong way, right?
Right.
And I also think there's a layer to it with feedback, right?
Like I started jiu-jitsu, did something really dumb the other day, right?
My coaches just giggling at me like, Ben, I just showed this to you.
Like, let's switch it that way.
I was like, cool, let's figure it out.
Let's talk about it.
But if he came down and yelled at me, he was like, Ben, you just missed this.
I probably been like, did settle down, right?
Like, but because he had this air to it, it allowed us to have fun with it.
So then we got to try it three different times and I got it.
So I don't know.
I always think sarcasm is a good default.
Some people are better than others.
If you try and turn on sarcasm.
sarcasm and you're not very sarcastic it could come across a very wrong but if it's part of your ethos let it fly.
very true.
I love that you added context in there, right?
That if then you do have to have a serious conversation, people can sense the change.
They understand the intention behind the conversation rather than it just kind of being a neutral flat line of how you always operate.
That then can be also taken in the wrong way, right?
Just, yeah, it's no, I think.
It is weird though.
Like you gotta, you gotta know when to turn it on and off, right?
You can't be too sarcastic.
Really?
Like he never, he never takes anything seriously, right?
Like I am very serious about results.
I'm very serious about us growing and getting better, but all that, all the like air around it, let's have some fun with it.
Let's be sarcastic.
Let's make jokes about it.
Never at the detriment to someone else.
Right?
Like if you're just shitting on other people all the time, your workers are going to be like, yeah, dude, this isn't a, but if you're very self-deprecating, I learned that early
on.
was like, Hey, self-deprecation is very funny.
The team likes it.
Let's have some
I can be the father jokes like that doesn't bother me at all
Granted, I did learn early on the social team took that and ran with it.
So like I was getting pranked in our social videos all the time.
If you want to check them out, they're hilarious.
Like my social team will come to my office and be like, Hey, I want to film a video.
I am on edge.
I am just like, are they here?
Are they setting me up?
So I've gotten really good at kind of figuring that out, but it allowed them to kind of be playful with me and treat me like an older brother, like a goofy uncle versus like he's so
serious.
I can't go into his office and prank him with social videos.
Like, come on, bring it, you know, bring it.
Well, it also showcases such an example of openness and transparency as well, because you're like, can make mistakes.
I can do things that aren't perfect as the old leadership tale goes, where you have to show up perfectly pressed shirt, perfect face, saying all the perfect things all the time.
And so to see an example of their leader being like, yeah, I can.
I can have a laugh at myself as well through the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I'm sure also cultivates quite the feeling of trust and also of psychological safety within your team.
What'd you say?
Yeah?
Yeah.
And I'm sure you've had bosses who are the opposite, right?
Like I've had them.
Yeah, I just remember one time like dealing with a boss, we'll never name him, but like I'm just breaking out in hives.
I'm like two years out of college, lived in just like some cockroach infested apartment, no money.
Literally it was so bad.
Like me and my best friend were just living in this rundown apartment, but I'm like, this woman's like yelling at me.
I started two months ago.
I'm like.
This isn't how I want to be led, right?
Like I don't respect this person at all.
So I was like, okay, if I'm ever going to lead, I got to be, I got to be someone I would want to respect.
It's kind of that self respect, how you build self respect.
It's like do things that you would find respect in other people.
So early on, I was like, okay, you know, how would I want to be managed?
What would that look like?
How do I dial it up a little bit or lower a little bit depending on who I'm working with?
How do I get serious?
How do I get playful?
But at the end of the day, I just wanna work with people who have fun doing it, get awesome results and do it that way, hopefully.
But I'm still learning, right?
I mess up all the time, forgot that follow-up or did something like that.
Being very clear if I messed up goes back to your point.
They wanna see you have that.
If you're a leader who just thinks you're perfect all the time, the team doesn't like you.
They are talking behind your back, et cetera.
So be cool with failure.
And then if you build that within yourself the team then is going to be cool with failure and again
This is so important to marketing.
I say this all the time.
Marketers are little science experiments.
You're trying 12 different things.
One works well, one doesn't.
If you have a weird culture that doesn't value failure as a marketer, you're going to fail.
You're going to full fail, full stop.
Right?
So I tried 20 different things.
This one works.
Having that, having that culture of like, tried this, it didn't work, but this one did.
That's when you really get the cool marketing stuff.
First, it's just everything's got to be perfect.
And I will say the younger generation is way cooler within professional.
than me being a millennial or the older generation above.
They wanna see that, right?
Goes back like I'm not wearing a press suit every day.
Should look really good probably, but they wanna see some of that imperfection.
I've even noticed great companies marketing are cool with imperfection.
Hey, we just sent you an email to 20,000 people and we messed up the first name.
I'm so sorry, here's your second email.
I see it all the time, right?
So be cool with that imperfection.
100%.
I got an email the other day from someone and it said, final, I don't know, was whatever the subject line was.
And then in capitals, it said edit before sending out.
And the entire thing had all the fields in there.
And I was like, no, someone didn't read the subject line here.
But for sure, I was, that caused me to go into our email database and I was like, shit, we've got an email going out.
Did I, did I edit everything?
Is everything okay there?
So it's also a lesson.
Spiked my blood pressure.
is pressing send on a large marketing email?
Like for marketers, like that, I remember day one, like starting my job and we had to send an email list to like 2000 people.
I was just like, it was like MailChimp press send.
Are you sure?
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Going off track a little bit, but it's just one of those feelings people don't get when you're like, I'm sending this email to 20,000 people and I just misspelled something.
Great.
been like, that says crap instead of clap.
I hope people see the humor in that.
At that point, just keep it.
Just keep it.
the wall.
you know, imperfection teaches us things.
It allows our team to connect, I would say, because we're humans.
And if we connected over being perfect, then we would live in a simulation and not in the real world, which we might anyways.
But, know, that's a conversation for another time.
Yeah, seriously.
Full simulation.
just, yeah, non-experts just talking about simulation.
We're in it.
We're deep.
You know, lizard people, but another day.
that'll be part two.
Many hot takes to come on that.
So you have a lot of fun with your team.
It sounds like there's a lot of trust.
And one thing that I want to dive into before we end this episode and, you know, not yet, but in the future.
I know, I know time flies when you're having fun.
This part is the not so fun side of leadership that many people dread.
And when you were talking about, you know, getting serious and having those difficult conversations, what are some of the tactics you've learned over the past eight years and
beyond that?
Because obviously you had to have those pre-market week as well.
What are some of the tactics you used to have those difficult conversations?
Obviously change in tonality, a setting, but what else helps you have those difficult conversations that drive the results that we know you care about?
versus just having a difficult conversation and then nothing changes.
Ooh, let's say two parts, right?
It is clear expectations.
So I think people go really crazy when they don't know what they're supposed to be doing.
I found myself in this, me being a manager who errs on the side of like freedom, wall screaming freedom, just kidding, we'll do that another time.
But it can remove some like, what the heck am I supposed to be doing on a day-to-day basis?
So as a good manager, I'm setting those expectations.
So it's not like...
Ben, you think I'm not doing a great job, but in my mind, I'm doing a great job.
It is, hey, here are the things we're trying to reach.
We didn't reach them.
That, right?
So having those expectations really helps.
I would also say I am very, very cognizant of that lobster brain theory.
So if I give you harsh feedback, will you reshape your brain to become what they call it like a beta lobster versus alpha, but it's like...
You cannot destroy the person with feedback so they don't find their confidence.
Granted, there are people who are just missing the mark.
That happens in leadership.
You're gonna have to let them go.
That is okay.
They will be successful elsewhere.
That is a very real thing.
But if you're giving feedback to someone you know you wanna be there for long time, your job is not to demoralize them.
Your job is not to humiliate them.
Your job is to provide them guidance on how to be better at what they're doing.
Again, going back to that Jiu Jitsu example, yeah, he was sarcastic, but if he just started yelling at me in front of class, like, hey Ben, I showed you this yesterday.
What the heck are you doing?
This isn't cutting it.
That's what I'm like, dude I'm not good at this.
It's gonna mess with my confidence versus
Hey, I know you can do this.
Here are three steps I want you to do to get better at that step and then just celebrate the wins once they reach them.
And I would say the last part is I've had managers who are so quick to show what's bad, but give no solution on how to get better.
A good manager sits with you and says, here's where you're not meeting the mark.
Here are the next action items I want you to do to get better in that space.
So if I was telling someone, Hey, you're not great on calls, but I wasn't giving them advice on how to do public speaking.
I'm a shitty manager.
Like it's easy to point out imperfections.
I can do this all day.
What's wrong with this desk?
What's wrong with that?
That's easy.
But if you sit down and say, hey, here's where you're not meeting the mark.
Here's my solution and game plan to get you better.
That is just a normal conversation that should be very easy to have.
And I have noticed like people who've done sports in their childhood are much cooler with feedback than some other people, right?
It's like, yeah, I've been coached.
Tell me how to run faster.
Absolutely.
But the people who've never played sports, it's a little bit harder because I think it's like an ego issue.
And I'm like, dude, drop the ego.
You're not great at it.
You're 22.
You're not supposed to be great at this.
Like wait 10 years.
Be cool with being imperfect in many avenues.
So I would say just kind of reframing like the goal of the conversation and just like, here's what this looks like.
So long winded answer, clear expectations, avoid beating them down.
So they have that really good alpha lobster brand.
People don't know what I'm talking about.
They're probably like, he's crazy, but it's the thing, right?
And then just having a solution for how to move forward.
I want you to get better at this.
Here are your action steps.
Go watch this YouTube video.
Here's some books I want to read.
Talk to me once you're done reading those or let's trial this.
Record your next two calls.
Let's sit and talk to you about how to get better on phone calls.
All of that is where a good manager really lives.
A bad manager takes the stress from their higher ups.
permeates down to you with no solutions.
And everyone sees that all the time.
And I want to add in one really important thing that you mentioned, and that's acknowledge the, whether it's effort or the success of meeting expectations once you see that
progress.
And I think that that helps to drive and solidify that feedback, right?
You mentioned that, there's, yeah, there's effort that has to go into.
getting better.
There's effort that has to go into changing behaviors, learning new habits, learning new skills.
And when you can acknowledge, you don't have to necessarily praise because they haven't gone above and beyond.
They've done the thing that you now want them to do.
But when you acknowledge that and say, I've noticed the improvement.
That was really great.
Keep it up.
What better way than for someone to take ownership over their own learning and development, right?
Than to, than to see that you see the progress they've made.
So
I think it's...
yeah.
I think there's two things on that.
It's like one, acknowledging what they're doing, right?
Like, dude, I saw you try that.
Not close, but I love that you tried, right?
Like having that conversation was super important.
So would say like really focusing on that side, having the clarity is kinda, it's all good stuff.
yes, exactly.
And learning and development never really ends.
So, you know, they learn, we learn and grow.
And, you know, I think there's a lot of things through experience that, as you mentioned, you know, some of the younger people who are 22 feel like they should have it all figured
out, but they haven't had the experiences to fail or to even have the opportunity to learn.
So for yourself, how do you continue, especially being in a...
in a senior leadership role now, how do you continue to develop your personal and professional growth as you move forward?
Yeah, yeah.
that.
I would say a lot of managers lose respect from their team members because they're not in the weeds as much.
And you don't have to be in the weeds.
But like, I don't want to be taught from a soccer coach who's never played soccer before, right?
So like kind of staying dangerous is really important.
Like, hey dude, let me take two sales calls for you.
Just like stun on them a little bit and show them your better.
No, I'm just kidding.
But staying deep in there is really important because I think that builds leadership or that builds respect from your employees a lot too.
So that one.
Yeah.
And I would say like
It goes back to that self-awareness, right?
Just like being cool with just messing up.
I love learning.
think the best leaders are obsessed with it, right?
So I call like information holics.
They're just pouring information into their brain all day and then they're pouring it into their team members.
Hey, I just learned this with AI.
Let's go try it, right?
Like, let's do that.
So it's not just this like person who is critiquing your work all the time.
They're trying different stuff and they're learning it all the time.
Again, going back to my Jiu-Jitsu example, had a Sunday class.
My coach went to this
He's like guys, that's what I just learned.
Let's all let's all go through it I was like, this is so fun.
Like I need to do this more as a manager like hey I just learned this really cool new feature.
Let's go get the team members and talk about it So learning as a leader and then pouring that back in your team It's just so important for you.
And if you get I don't know people get bored I get bored if I stop learning right if I stop progressing so if you're finding cool new tactics and strategies of leadership
Communication and pouring that back in then the team's like oh he's in this too.
Like he's figuring this out
he's learning, he's providing value.
It's just not some antiquated way.
He was trained 10 years ago from his sales leader that they still think works.
mean, literally my sales would put a mirror in front of my TV or my computer, so I'm smiling and dialing.
I'm like, hey, that stuff worked.
Like, I'm so grateful.
But there's new strategies and new techniques to try to.
absolutely.
And I'm sure too, you get to see, kind of shines a light on some things, some strengths that other team members might have, but they don't know what they don't know either until
you do something and they take to it.
They're really good at it.
They have interest in it.
And now that becomes a project you can pass off to someone else.
Right?
Yeah.
Man, that's such a good point to not to like dive too much into that.
think a great manager knows what his team's good at, right?
It's like, again, using a football analogy, it's like, I'm not going to put a 330 pound lineman as a receiver.
Like he has natural strengths.
Like you go sit at right tackle and defend my quarterback.
So I think a good manager comes in and says, where's, where's my team good?
Where are they passionate about?
Where can I kind of direct that, that, that avenue of them being really good at something to benefit our clients, benefit our team members versus a one size fits all.
And that does require some
movement and intentionality, right?
You actually have to get to know your employees.
One of my pet peeves was working with a manager many years ago and I was like, Hey, what's the, what's this person's husband name?
She's like, I don't know.
I'm like, dude, like you gotta man, like you gotta know about them.
This isn't just like work stuff, one-on-ones, like you gotta know like what's their dog's name?
What's their husband's name?
What do they do on the weekend?
So like, I kind of would gut check some of my managers and be like, are you managing them or are you just telling them what to do?
Like, do you know about them?
Do you care about them?
Because you can never lead well if you don't care on a deeper level.
So that's something I see a lot of managers do.
like, hey, what's my name?
What's my wife's name?
you don't know it?
How are you managing me?
And again, like.
So really, really kind of focus on like, do you give a shit about your employees?
Cause if you don't, it's going to be obvious.
It's going to be obvious.
that is a mic drop right there.
Do you know them deeper?
I love that.
And that's something that I think people take for granted.
Leaders take for granted, individuals take for granted.
especially if you work in the office or like right now, you can see in my backdrop, there are probably three or four things that you could call out.
Hey, it's Sunny there.
I love your office, which you've said.
You know, there are ways that you can observe your team member without making it an awkward, like, so tell me about everything in your life, because how do you make it an
organic conversation?
But just sit back and observe.
And I believe some of the best leaders are masters of observation.
They can see that you've got a badge on your backpack that says, I don't know, Iron Man.
Whoa, cool.
Did you do that or was that a family member's, right?
Like, how do you...
How do you continue to evolve that conversation just through observing some of the things that your team cares about?
It's just like observing their strengths,
God.
could not agree more and what I see managers mess up so much is they flip it, right?
They'll give, if there's a pyramid of the best management style, I'm making this up, so just bear with me.
The top is like personal getting to know them on a human level.
If that medium level is giving feedback, sometimes they'll skip that first level and start getting feedback.
So what I tell my managers like 70, 30, like when you're talking to your employees is like 70 % should be personable because majority of the time the work stuff is impacted by that.
Like, hey, you looked, you kind of underperformed what's going on.
they're just focusing on work, might be like, yo dude, my child was up last night till 4 a.m.
sick, like I haven't slept in a couple hours.
Whoa, now I have a different level of empathy with them.
So again,
As a manager, have to be able for that.
You have to build a way where they respect you and they're not going to respect you if they know you do not care about them.
And it can't be fake.
Like give me your dog's name.
Okay.
Writing it down.
Like Dixie.
Cool.
Like that's Dixie.
What's your wife's name?
Cool.
Claire.
Right?
Like doing it that way, but like intentionally asking them questions, digging deeper.
love your point on observation.
Like, yeah, dude, you got two tennis balls back there.
Like you've been playing lately.
What's going on?
So if a good manager takes, let's say you have a month of one-on-ones, how would
let's say spend 70 % of those one-on-ones talking to them as a human, and then post that month, your management style is gonna be so much better, because you know about them.
What are they doing?
What do they care about?
But taking that little front end work is gonna be so much valuable versus.
Okay, I hired you, I'm your new manager, did you make 100 calls last night?
Did you have X amount of talk time?
Like, they're gonna burn out, they're gonna leave, you're not gonna be good management, and then you're gonna be frustrated with how your team's performing.
How would you want to be led as a employee and then apply that to your team members?
absolutely.
Just reminded me when you were like, what's your dog's name?
What's your wife's name?
Just what's your bank number?
What's your bank card number, right?
Yeah.
last word is your social, like, what's going on here?
So, I don't know.
probably send the wrong idea.
No, I've loved this conversation.
I think that there's, we definitely need a part two because there's so much we can dive into, but I will ask you one final summary question.
deciding between two questions right now.
I've got time.
That's my birthday chip.
We got all day.
We talked about a lot of skills, so hard skills and soft skills.
In your opinion, what do you think is the most underrated soft skill that really makes a leader effective?
Some people might disagree with me.
I think body language is one of the most underutilized and under trained soft skill there is.
Like, if you observe, and what I always tell people is like...
Observe some people you you look up to right?
I don't care if it's Beyonce to You're watching Mad Men and asking like why does John draper's just seem so cool and confident And you'll realize a lot of that comes out in a
body language.
I'm a big proponent of like how are you sitting?
Are you looking them in the eye?
Are you taking up space when you're supposed to be confident when you're really interested in someone?
Are you leaning up and getting really up in their stuff, right?
Like all this can indicate so much and I think There's this weird evolutionary stuff
of confidence, right?
It's like, why do people say chin up, neck out?
When you understand it, it's like, yeah, because those are your vulnerable areas, right?
When we're running around as cavemen, a lion is going to come up and eat it.
But you're saying to the world, I'm open and I'm confident.
So I don't see enough people utilize it.
It's hard on Zoom, right?
You can't see that I'm sitting back.
My legs are crossed and taking up space, but it's almost just as important versus I'm looking anxious.
I'm hunched over.
I'm trying to protect those sensitive areas, right?
Like that is with us.
hitting is I'm not confident.
I'm trying to protect that area.
So I think it's understudied, underutilized, but if you watch the greats, you'll notice like, dude, when Beyonce is sitting, she's taking up space, she looks all cool.
You're like, dude, she is just freaking confident.
So that is my most underrated skill that I don't see people actively training or getting better.
I love that.
You were the only person to have said body language so far.
And I definitely agree with you.
I think it is so powerful.
yeah, it's one of the, a woman who's five foot three, I understand that, yeah, yeah, I'm small.
I'm small.
But when I first meet people, they say, oh, I thought you were bigger.
I thought you were taller than that.
Mmm.
down to energy, right?
Taking up space on a plane, all those things.
And it's not to walk around like this, but it's just what is your, what's your energy saying?
What can people expect from you?
And yeah, it exudes confidence.
So I love that answer.
It's hard on zoom, but I would say that.
always recommend look around.
You go to dinner.
What people look cool, right?
Like what people look confident.
It's not about looking cool and confident, right?
But it's like...
There is this energy that pushes out as you structure your body language, because it comes down to how much air are you intaking?
Where's your blood flowing?
There's a weird science to it.
There's these four guys on YouTube called the behavior panelists.
It's one of my favorite YouTube.
They will just analyze, like, they work in FBI and CIA.
All they do is analyze body language, whether it's like.
Amber Heard talking on the stand, like they're analyzing that versus like someone in politics.
I always recommend like study it, watch it.
You'll be very aware of like, okay, when people lie, they usually like scratch or touch their hair.
So it's like all these little, exactly, right?
Like my poor wife's like, I'm like, I caught you.
You're bad at this, right?
Like, I know you're not doing this.
She's like, it.
But I think that's one of the understudied.
underestimated soft skill.
Everyone talks about how your tone is, you're speaking up, ending on a downward pitch versus upward pitch.
But I'm like, I don't know if people talk about how to sit, take up space.
And unfortunately we live in a world where appearances matter so much.
I wish they didn't, but they do.
So it's how you dress, how's your energy, all that stuff matters so much, especially in the business world.
And can I just provide you with my hot take on body language?
okay, biggest pet peeve when people go to have an intense, well, I shouldn't say intense, but a serious conversation.
So a constructive conversation and they sit across a boardroom table from the person receiving that information.
You are now completely creating an energetic cut between you.
You're putting yourself at a me versus you.
I always say, that conversation, turn, sit at the side of a table so your heart's facing them and there's nothing blocking you in between or don't even have a table between you.
But I always watch that and I think you're sitting down for a negotiation.
That person is immediately coming in like, this is me versus you rather than, hey, we're on the same team here.
I love that.
I've never, see this is why it's so cool studying that, cause like when you said it, goosebumps made sense, like heart to heart.
I'm noticing some of my best conversations I'm sitting next to him versus like this weird divide, right?
What a great hot take.
And I will say a funny story on this.
So I went to pitch this guy didn't work out cause he's a little, he's a little out there, very wealthy in Buckhead, Atlanta.
It's like this town.
He was very small.
No, no, no issue with that, but he built his office where his desk was higher and he put his two seats lower.
So he's maybe like five, five, I'm six, three.
And I'm just looking up to him.
Like he was very intentional about this energy.
Like he wanted to exude power.
So I'm like, again, if I wasn't very aware, I'd just be like, cool.
These seats are a little bit smaller, but I found that out.
I'm like, okay, this is this weird energy divide he's creating and hearing you talk about it.
I'm like, gosh, feedback does go so much better when you're just sitting side to side with them, like having that heart to heart versus a table.
Dang, I just learned something.
Kendra, I love it.
It's a great hot take.
gosh, I'm just picturing that now.
That made me feel awkward just imagining that.
It's kind of like a judge, right?
Being up in the, yeah, funny.
It was with Brooke, my CEO, and she was like, I'm not sitting down.
I was like, I love you.
Just like immediately was like, I ain't sitting down.
I'm standing up.
I was like, you are such a bad ass.
Cause we both picked it up right away.
We're like, this is weird, isn't it?
it.
I'm standing up.
was like, that's why I love you.
That's why you're in the best.
Like I'm going to follow you forever.
Like just immediately do it.
So funny.
Oh, she's great.
She's awesome.
We're getting her on a pod here soon.
good.
Okay.
With that, mean, part two coming soon, definitely.
But Ben, thank you so much for the awesome chat.
I think there's, like I said, we're so aligned.
This was a ton of fun.
I can't believe it's done already.
Yeah, absolutely flew by.
My pleasure.
I loved it.
The more I get to know you and I can't recommend anyone, I mean obviously they're listening to you now, but like go check out more of your stuff.
I love your reels, love what you're posting, your thought process, very intentional.
And then you have that sarcasm, which just makes me love you even more.
I appreciate that feeling is mutual and you know, they're listening to the podcast right now because they know, hopefully know where to find me, but where can people find you?
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn business wise.
Don't my Instagram is more personal stuff.
Good luck trying to find me on that post and memes and stuff.
Just kidding.
That looks like it's private.
so follow me on LinkedIn, Mark awake on Instagram.
My social team does so good.
And if you want to check out my golf stuff, it's Richmond sport.
we do golf prints and golf hats, all the above.
It's been incredible building that out, but yeah, can find me on all those.
Amazing.
Well, thank you again.
And we'll chat soon.
All right.