Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Centre for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Krysia: Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Krysia, and it's great that you've joined us this week. The podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.[00:01:00] 

If you'd like to access the transcript for the episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. And today on CAT Chat, Zoe and I are going to have a chat about our upcoming series. I wonder, Zoe, if you could introduce what we're gonna be, who we're gonna be hosting, what we're gonna be talking about 

Zoe: Yeah.

So we're very excited about this series. It's been a long time coming. We've taken quite a lot of time to get, um, the right speakers on who we feel will, um, yeah, be an interesting mix. Um, so yeah, we are gonna be doing a series on autism, neurodiversity, and sacred texts. Um, so we're gonna be, over a series of months, um, each episode we'll bring in a different d- a different guest to talk about different sacred texts.

And I think we're particularly excited for this series because so much of this podcast focuses on Christianity, um, and Christian theology, um, largely 'cause that's where our experience and expertise lies, and also a [00:02:00] lot of the literature does concern the Christian faith, um, when it comes to autism and theology or autism and faith.

But there are so many interesting conversations going out, going on outside of Christianity as well. So we wanted to use this as an opportunity to bring in some more experiences, um, because we're very passionate about kind of interfaith discussions and how we can learn about and learn from different experiences of spirituality and faith.

Um, so yeah, we're very excited about this series. I think it'll be fun. Um, we're kicking off the series with Elizabeth Peach, who's one of our PhD researchers, and she's gonna kick off the series talking about autism and the Bible, so Christianity. And she's done some really interesting research around how we can read the Bible in conversation with autism, and how we can deal with certain texts, um, through, um, autistic theology.

So yeah, [00:03:00] very excited for that. And then, Krysia, I don't know if you wanna share about, um, the other episodes we have. 

Krysia: Yes. So Ian is gonna be speaking to a Jewish rabbi who he's built some good connection with over email over the last few months, and he's gonna be recording with them. And I'm gonna ch- have a chat to Sofia about broader kind of, basically, a lot of the same concepts the, and kind of ideas that Zoe and Elizabeth Peach are gonna be talking about, but in a Muslim context 

Zoe: Yeah, and then we're hoping, um, this is unconfirmed so, um, but I think it looks like it's gonna go ahead.

We're really hoping to bring in an interfaith discussion at the end of the series, um, to sort of round off, um, with dialogue between different perspectives because we think that's a really exciting conversation to be had. It's not necessarily to, like, convince people of one opinion, but just to chat and, um, almost have a kind of round table [00:04:00] discussion.

So, um, yeah, I think it's gonna be really interesting. It's certainly last time we did a series, we did the mental health series last year, and we got so much good feedback on that. Um, so yeah, we're really keen to do something a bit similar but also, um, different. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

Krysia, I wonder, like, what you're kind of, like, going into this series, obviously, like, um, we know kind of what these conversations are gonna be, but, um, we've not all listened to all the episodes yet. Um, so yeah, I wonder what you're kind of most excited or most interested in learning. 

Krysia: I guess for me, part of the excitement is actually if we have the interfaith discussion, will it be that bit in terms of what kind of experiences are common, what kind of experiences and readings are very specific, and how actually this conversation of autism and theology is spreading and growing as well to lots of different people, and how important it is.

And I guess I'm really looking forward to chatting to Sophia [00:05:00] and listening to what Elizabeth and Ian's episode is gonna be as well, because it's gonna, it's gonna... It's just so fascinating to hear about how have people experienced the world and live in the world, and it's... I think that's something I've really come to appreciate through being in this field of research, and also on the podcast as well, is there's things that keep us kind of together in the similarities we have, but there's ways we all learn from each other as well.

What about you? 

Zoe: Yeah, I like that. I think for me, I'm, I'm so excited for all the episodes. Um, and it'll be really lovely to, like, like, um, Lizzie has some really interesting perspectives that I think will be quite, um, new in some ways, um, to the con- like, bringing new stuff to the conversation. I think I'm most intrigued to hear Ian's episode with the Jewish rabbi, because obviously I've heard, like, Sophia [00:06:00] speak about, um, speak about things before at the Faith on, uh, Faith on the Margins conference.

Yeah. But I've n- never engaged with any sort of conversation around autism and Judaism, so I think that'll be- Really, really fascinating just to, like, understand a different perspective that I've not come across before. And I think that's, like, a nice challenge, isn't it? When you kind of are presented with views that you've not...

That's, I guess, the purpose of a podcast. You listen to a podcast to sort of get sound bites of, like, something that you wouldn't maybe come across just in your day-to-day work. Um, so yeah, I think it will be really interesting but, yeah, very excited. Um, but we thought for kind of, like, this episode, it would be interesting to kick off the series, um, or, like, do a, like, pre-glimpse into the series with a question that we got from a listener, um, in our inbox recently.

Um, so yeah, we're just gonna spend the rest of [00:07:00] the episode unpacking that a little bit and, um, yeah, Krysia, do you want to read it out? 

Krysia: Yeah. So we've had the following question come in. "I was wondering, as someone who's come to understanding my autism quite late," so brackets, "I'm 50. I've recently begun to appreciate how literally I take things and the impact this has on me when listening to a sermon or using a Bible study guide which poses questions.

I find I struggle, doubting my own faith or validity as a Christian because of the phrase or the statement, and this often lasts a significant period of time before I hear a different perspective, which helps me understand how the original statement was perhaps not intended the way I received it. So is this anything that any of you have encountered in your faith or worship or also in your research?"

Zoe: Krysia, I feel like, do you wanna kick off your kind of thoughts [00:08:00] just as an autistic person? Um, and then I can, yeah, share some of my thoughts. 

Krysia: Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the things that really strikes me is how much, um, and kind of leaning into perhaps more certain ways people may give sermons or certain, um, Bible study texts are really geared towards a very neuronormative understanding and experience of the world.

And I guess this probably isn't helped by the fact that there seems to... Sometimes people may think there's a right way or a wrong way, and the way we're kind of in the education system, and I know this from my parents being through the education and they're in their 60s, that there's very much... When we engage with something, we're sometimes looking for the right answer, and I guess sometimes I have found that.

But [00:09:00] then sometimes I think almost that it's a reflection on the, not so much say all resources, because they're not. There's plenty of really, really good resources, but perhaps the way they've asked the question isn't perhaps- Working for an autistic brain or a dyslexic brain, or just somebody who's multiply neurodivergent, or their lived experience isn't really kind of tapped into in a way that works and that maybe, um, helps us process the question.

And I guess also kind of picking up on the doubting my own faith or validity as a Christian, certainly is that something that I have felt when I don't do things that perhaps are the, this idea of what a good Christian is. But I think, I always wonder how much of that is, again, wrapped up in neuronormative ideals rather than every one of us coming as we are and being part of the image of God to kind of [00:10:00] really un-unpack, un- picking and unraveling that.

And I wondered what you thought, Zoe, kind of from your research and your lived experiences as well. 

Zoe: Yeah. I think it's such an interesting one, like picking up on what you're saying, like, often these questions, they may be written by someone, um, or like again, with a sermon, like, the content is written by someone, and that person has a set way of thinking.

And if that person maybe doesn't have an understanding of neurodiversity or comes from a tradition that's much more like, I need to get... Like, you learn about faith by getting the right answer, and then, like, like almost like when it's more about knowledge building than exploring your own understanding of faith and the Bible or, um, whatever else.

And I think that's where we come into these issues because they're written by someone who maybe has a certain way of thinking, and then you're coming into this as an autistic person, a neurodivergent person whose brain does work differently. [00:11:00] Like, um, I mean, I know much more about dyslexia than autism, but with dyslexia, like a lot of, um, dyslexic people, their brains will be more likely to see patterns.

So a few of my participants in my first research project, their brain would, like, jump around loads of different passages and they would say, "Oh, well, this passage relates to this passage, which relates to this passage." And they would find it quite hard to, like, get the question right, because their brain was just leading them in different directions.

Um, and I had one... I can't remember what they said, but I had one participant in particular who talked about experiences in Bible studies where he was told, like, "That's the wrong answer," um, because that's not the answer they were looking for. And actually, they were just seeing things a little bit differently.

Their brain was leading them down different routes. But what was wrong about it is that it wasn't what was expected from them. And I think that's like... I think this question, um, the person who's [00:12:00] asked it is clearly being made to feel like their way of understanding things is incorrect, and they need to be taught the right answer.

I know sometimes we do get complete... Like, there are- I mean, some might disagree with me, but I would say there are, like, incorrect interpretations of scripture.

Krysia: So I wouldn't pick up scripture and go, "Yeah, there's aliens in the sky, and the sky is green- Yeah ... and things like that. But I think there's a lot of wiggle room in how- Yeah ... the contexts we come from. Yeah. I think a lot of that sometimes gets missed or marginalized or swept under the rug.

Yeah. And that our context is sometimes really important to how we interpret- Yeah ... the Bible, which theologies work for us, which ones don't. Yeah. And although there's gonna be things that a lot of us do all agree on, there's gonna be certain lived experiences that some of us are either just unpacking or that we don't have or that we've known we've had for a while.

And that's, I guess, also that these things, especially when we [00:13:00] think about for people who do only identify as neurodivergent later in life, perhaps they didn't have the tools and the meaning-making to support them when they were younger, or the support, or people had a diagnosis when they were younger- Yeah

but not told what it was meant. That then can radically shift h- when you kind of come to terms with what it might mean for you. It might then radically shift how you then interpret- Yeah ... and engage with things like resources, Bible study, scripture, um, things that people may say in sermons. There might be kind of, you might reevaluate over time.

Yeah. And I think sometimes it's not so much saying that, you know, there is only one way or we should be okay with everything everybody says. It's looking at the context we live in and whose experiences and voices are heard more than others and how things are really shaped by basically how we [00:14:00] embody and do theology and do church together.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where we have, like, kind of what I hope will come out a little bit in this series. Um, certainly something I'm passionate about is, like, authentic engagement with the Bible, being like, okay, well, this is how maybe my community tells me how, like, as Krysia said at the start, how a good Christian should engage with the Bible or read the Bible.

But actually, like, how, like, taking time yourself to be like, okay, well, like, w- how is it that I'm reading scripture in a different way to other people? Like, can I pinpoint what is slightly different here? And then can I, like, drill into that a little bit and understand my brain better through- the differences, if that makes sense.

It's like- Yeah ... almost using it as an opportunity not to be like, "Oh, well, I'm just disengaging," or, um, "Okay, I'm wrong," but being like, "Actually, can I learn more about myself through this?" I think is, yeah, a helpful thing to do. 

Krysia: [00:15:00] Definitely, and I think in a way, some of the points that we're both making kind of overlap in terms of a general neurodivergent experience- Mm

where people m- might think, or autistic people have one experience, and that's separate. There might be- Mm ... things that autistic people experience, particularly things around stigma and some of the research around autism and the language of autism, how it's described- Mm ... and how we might use it on people.

But actually, when we think about how people engage with the Bible, how people are in church, the way we do things, the things we expect from them, it's a much kind of broader, more wobbly thing, I think. Yeah. And I think also what's really exciting about this series is actually people being able to come as they are, authentically- Mm

to have these conversations, 'cause we're gonna be talking mainly about autism and engaging with sacred texts. But actually, people might be saying, "Well, actually, because of my whole embodiment, my whole self, [00:16:00] you know, I've noticed sometimes," um, Zoe and I have spoken this about before, about this before, where, you know, for me, as someone with very severe visual stress, the words dance around on the page when I'm reading.

And the Bible is one of the worst texts to read- Mm ... with small texts, see-through pages, and it, it, it's just set up in a way that's not necessarily conducive for people who perhaps have visual processing differences or, uh, uh, neurodivergent, specifically looking around how we engage with written text, especially when we think of actually historically, would people have been reading, or would people have been sharing these things more verbally, and kind of looking at all those things as well.

Zoe: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that just comes back to, like, what we've both said about there's, like, cer- communities sometimes just don't see the big picture because there's a way of doing things. So I guess, like, probably to sum [00:17:00] up what we've both said, it's just like you're not alone in, like, these feelings, but also don't feel like you need to change the way you think.

Um, but that also doesn't mean you can't, like, explore, um, different perspectives as well. I think it's, yeah... I hope that's been kind of helpful for people. 

Krysia: Thank you so much for the question that you've sent in, and we're really open to getting other questions as well. You can message us at Autism Theology on Blue Sky or Instagram, or you can send us an email at cat@abdn.ac.uk. Even if it's just to say hi, we'd love to hear from you

Zoe: thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. [00:18:00] If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk, or find us on Twitter @autismtheology.