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Even if it was out of our control and
we had to just walk away and we didn't

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have time to, to land the plane softly.

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I think that's the wonderful thing
about Muse and its architecture is

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everyone still would have been able
to use Muse and still would have

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had access to all of their data and
everything still would have worked.

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Even if the sync engine had gone
offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,

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but that's the wonderful thing about
local-first in the architecture we

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chose is the The kind of the worst
case was actually still pretty good.

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Welcome to the localfirst.fm podcast.

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I'm your host, Johannes Schickling,
and I'm a web developer, a

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startup founder, and love the
craft of software engineering.

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For the past few years, I've been on a
journey to build a modern, high quality

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music app using web technologies.

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And in doing so, I've been falling down
the rabbit hole of local-first software.

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This podcast is your invitation
to join me on that journey.

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In this episode, I'm
speaking to Adam Wulf.

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The engineer and solopreneur
behind Muse, a local-first

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canvas based tool for thought.

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In this conversation, we talk about
the evolution of Muse as a product,

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company, and the people who made it,
reflecting on the joys and struggles

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of building software as a team of one.

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Later, we're diving deep into
topics such as analytics and

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distribution of a local-first app.

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Before getting started, also a big
thank you to Convex and Electric

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SQL for supporting this podcast.

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And now my interview with Adam.

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Hey Adam, so nice to have you on the show.

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How are you doing?

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Johannes, really good.

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thanks for having me.

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I'm thrilled to be here, frankly.

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I had you on the backlog list for this
podcast for a long, long, long time.

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And frankly, without you and another Adam
Wiggins and Mark from the co founding team

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of Muse, this podcast probably wouldn't
exist because the MetaMuse podcast

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has been a huge inspiration for me.

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I've learned so much about it.

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I'm still a bit bummed.

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That is currently on pause.

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Hopefully it's coming back at
some point, but I wanted to dig

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deeper into all things local-first.

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This is why I've started this podcast
roughly a year ago, and now I'm super,

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super excited to welcome you and the show.

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So for those who are listening,
who don't know who you are, would

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you mind giving a background?

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Yeah, I'm Adam Wolf.

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one of the early members of the Muse team.

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I think number five, it was Adam
and Mark, Julia and Lennart.

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And then I came on board,
almost five years ago now, gosh.

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so it's been quite, quite
a long journey, with Muse.

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And then of course, I've been
solo for a bit over a year now.

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We can, we can get into all those
details, but I've been a developer,

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an entrepreneur my entire career.

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So.

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Early in my career, I started on the
web, co founded a web calendar startup,

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right before Google Calendar launched.

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And then, worked in enterprise software
for a while, lived in Portland, Oregon,

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which I loved, the Pacific Northwest,
in the States is absolutely beautiful.

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after that adventure, moved
back to Texas, worked with

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Flexbits for quite a long time.

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I don't know if many of your
listeners use, Fantastical, but it's

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a wonderful calendar app on the Mac.

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So I worked with them for,
I think, five or six years.

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which was wonderful until Muse and
then, jumped in on the Muse train

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and have been here ever since and
I've, yeah, I've been loving it.

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Yeah, boy, I mean, already 5 years.

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I remember when I was sitting down
with Adam Wiggins and he's been telling

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me about this idea for, for Muse and
he showed me some first prototypes

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and, I was blown away by, like, We're
just coming along at this point.

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And I think there wasn't
really, there wasn't really

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the killer app for iPads yet.

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And, I remember how, like almost
obsessed Adam was at this point with

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like, just trying to like use the pen.

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And I was like aware of the existence of
the iPad pen, but for the metum for the.

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The Muse app, this is where
it really clicked for me.

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Oh, like this meeting, this,
this makes so much sense.

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And, yeah, that was five years ago.

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And since then Muse has gone
through quite the journey.

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So, without going too much into it myself,
maybe you want to walk us through, what

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did the last five years look like on a
high level through the chapters of Muse?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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so Muse is now on version
three, I think in some ways.

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You could chop it up into
Muse 1, Muse 2 and Muse 3.

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Muse 1 was, iPad only.

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It was, local-first in a very direct
way because there was no sync at all.

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All of your data just lived
on the iPad and that was it.

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so it was just you and your
iPad and your local data.

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It was just a private thinking space.

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Muse 2, we spent a lot of time building
the sync engine, which it still runs on.

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And then that brought in Muse for Mac
and still with the local-first roots.

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So all of the data lives on the Mac,
all of the data lives on the iPad.

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And then our Sync server, helps
keep those in in track together.

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And then Muse three, which we launched,
in late 2024, was collaboration.

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And so still local-first, but now not only
could you sync with all your devices, but

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you could start sharing and collaborating
with other people in real time as well.

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And so those are the big pieces.

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since I live in the code, I often think
of the chapters of Muse in that way.

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Like, how did the code
change over those chapters?

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That's not the only thing
that changed really, right?

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There's also like the
people behind the code.

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Yes, exactly right.

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What are the chapters there?

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Exactly right.

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so I believe the very
first chapter predated me.

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It was Mark.

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Adam and Julia were the three founding
members at Ink & Switch, and it

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started there as a research project.

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And then after they decided,
Hey, I think this has legs.

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Let's try and productize this.

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Let's pull this out and really
make a go for it is when Lennart

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joined the team, as the designer.

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And so he came in, it
was the four of them.

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I want to say Lennart was
there maybe three to six months

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before they reached out to me.

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Might've been there a bit longer.

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I came in, gosh, 2020.

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everyone remembers that
year and nobody wants to.

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so it was, it was right as the
lockdowns were starting, right.

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As everything was, was going on.

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it was funny.

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I've, I've worked remotely for gosh,
15 years now, something like that.

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And so, Of course, everything
changed in 2020, but, working

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remotely for an all remote team
was a very natural thing for me.

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And so, it was a wonderful, distraction
from the current events, of course,

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but it was just a wonderful team and
a wonderful way to work after that.

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We brought in a couple new folks.

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Linda came in and Henry came in, Linda
came in as a storyteller, to really

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help Adam, especially on the, the
marketing side, kind of the web content

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side, she did lots for the website
and helping tell the story of Muse and

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bring the story of Muse to more people.

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She did a lot on the, with the video and
with YouTube and, really great work there.

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That was.

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essential, I think, for Muse.

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And then Henry came on at an important
time, building the, the Go server, which

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is the backbone of the sync engine.

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So he and Mark really carried
the load on the server.

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Building that

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and I think it's worth noting that at
that point, Muse, unlike the way how it

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operates today, at this point, it was
really more like a traditional startup

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where, they, they brought in venture
funding to build up that team and to

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get this off the ground before there was
a product that had revenue, et cetera.

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So that was the foundation
that this was even possible to

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bring on all of those people.

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Right.

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Yes, that's right.

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Yeah.

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I think I'm trying to remember.

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I don't remember the numbers.

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So don't ask me how much, how much we
raised, but we did raise from, quite a few

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angels, Adam and Mark, at the beginning,
brought in a significant portion.

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I think even by the end, they
were the primary investors.

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But it was that investment money that
let us grow that team and, build from,

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from scratch, which is gosh, one of
the hardest things about building any

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new software product is either you
don't have any investment and then

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it's just you working alone in your
garage, trying as hard as you can,

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going as fast as you can, which is often

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what I'm doing right now.

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Not necessarily in a
garage, but still, yeah,

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yeah, exactly.

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I think lots of people do that.

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I've done that quite a
few times in my career.

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And, A lot can come from it, but of
course, your, your velocity, you know,

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the speed at which you can develop
is constraint with time and money.

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and so having, having those
investors early on was a huge

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help to be able to grow the team
and get that vision out there.

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Of Muse within those first few years

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and to kind of foreshadow already
the next second big chapter in Muse's

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history at some point, Muse, the
founding team, et cetera, including

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you made some pretty big changes.

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So tell me more about that.

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So it was, mid to late 2023, I
think actually this whole time,

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as I've been talking, I've.

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I've had my years backwards.

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So it's 2023 when this is happening.

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Not 2024.

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2024 was, after all of this,
it was mid to late 2023.

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We realized, this is not
able to sustain the team.

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And so what are we going to do?

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there's a couple of different options.

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the obvious one is.

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Peace out.

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We enjoyed it.

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The whole thing shuts down and the lights
turn off and good luck to everybody.

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We, we didn't want to do that.

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we know we love the app.

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We'd love to be able to continue using
it, even if we just had to use it offline.

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But we wanted to at least a graceful
way for all of the existing users

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to either continue using the app.

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And at the very least,
like table stakes was.

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Muse is local-first, the entire purpose
and premise is, is having local access

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to your data and protecting your data.

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And we want to make sure that
that continues regardless of what

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happens to the app on the App
Store and all the other things.

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How can we make sure that,
people still have all of the

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wonderful work that they've put in

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exactly and to just, draw like one
bridge to, last year's Local-First Conf,

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where Martin Klepman gave the keynote.

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I'm not sure whether
you've seen the keynote.

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and I highly recommend anyone
who's listening to check it

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out if they didn't see it.

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But he was pointing to one aspect
of local-first, which he calls,

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our incredible journey proof.

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So since for a lot of ambitious startups,
at some point, the lights go out and

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there's a last block post that comes
along with it, which is our incredible

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journey, either being acquired by company
X and the product gets shut down or

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product just gets shut down like that.

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And.

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Martin framed it as such that local-first
apps should be in our incredible journey

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proof, which is a very nice way to put it.

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And I think that's exactly the
bar that you've just meant that

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you've motivated that you want
to hold yourself accountable to.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And I think even if, you know.

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Even if it was out of our control and
we had to just walk away and we didn't

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have time to, to land the plane softly.

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I think that's the wonderful thing
about Muse and its architecture is

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everyone still would have been able
to use Muse and still would have

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had access to all of their data and
everything still would have worked.

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Even if the sync engine had gone
offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,

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but that's the wonderful thing about
local-first in the architecture we

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chose is the The kind of the worst
case was actually still pretty good.

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The worst case was
actually still pretty good.

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And it was way better than kind of the
usual, startup company that disappears.

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But we really talked about, okay, how,
how can we actually do even better?

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How can we land this plane softly?

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How can we make sure that
everyone gets the data they need?

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We could, spend the last few months
building export tools and integration

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tools to help people get their data out.

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Before the server shuts down.

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and I offered and said,
I'm entrepreneurial.

231
00:13:09,398 --> 00:13:10,808
I've done this sort of thing a lot.

232
00:13:11,128 --> 00:13:15,318
I know we haven't been able to build
legs enough to carry the whole team,

233
00:13:15,858 --> 00:13:20,928
but I think that as a single person,
I can keep this alive and I can

234
00:13:20,928 --> 00:13:24,328
keep this, I can keep carrying that
torch and keep carrying that dream.

235
00:13:24,821 --> 00:13:26,361
so I put, I put my name in the hat.

236
00:13:26,641 --> 00:13:27,281
We.

237
00:13:27,673 --> 00:13:31,049
kept looking, we looked, we talked
with, some potential acquirers.

238
00:13:31,089 --> 00:13:33,419
We talked with, of course, Ink & Switch.

239
00:13:33,826 --> 00:13:36,409
we tried lots of different things.

240
00:13:36,449 --> 00:13:43,083
Adam Wiggins has a blog post that really
talks through, the whole story of Muse

241
00:13:43,083 --> 00:13:45,243
and especially that last chapter of Muse.

242
00:13:45,243 --> 00:13:48,563
So if people haven't read that, you
can look, find that on his website too.

243
00:13:49,066 --> 00:13:51,499
and so, the team talked and.

244
00:13:52,264 --> 00:13:53,444
That's what we decided to do.

245
00:13:53,444 --> 00:13:55,954
We decided to say, hey, if there's
a chance that we can keep this thing

246
00:13:55,954 --> 00:14:01,814
alive, then yeah, let's, let's find a
way to, to be able to hand it over to,

247
00:14:02,044 --> 00:14:04,494
to me, to try and keep carrying forward.

248
00:14:04,504 --> 00:14:07,928
And so, the official transition date.

249
00:14:08,408 --> 00:14:11,618
was early October 2023.

250
00:14:11,958 --> 00:14:13,128
I got the year right this time.

251
00:14:13,858 --> 00:14:16,148
So, yeah, about 15, 16 months ago.

252
00:14:16,148 --> 00:14:19,818
So it's been, it's been a long time
and I was thinking just recently,

253
00:14:19,818 --> 00:14:23,008
like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe
it's been over a year already.

254
00:14:23,571 --> 00:14:27,268
but yeah, I've been, it went
from a team of 7 to a team of.

255
00:14:27,498 --> 00:14:33,424
Just me, that, that early October
and, that was a transition.

256
00:14:33,434 --> 00:14:34,314
I can tell you that.

257
00:14:34,844 --> 00:14:38,424
That was, it was, it was rough
for all sorts of reasons.

258
00:14:39,301 --> 00:14:44,921
I think it's super fascinating because
this has given Muse a second life

259
00:14:45,481 --> 00:14:50,764
and a second life that, I really
haven't heard of other startups,

260
00:14:50,794 --> 00:14:53,014
products, et cetera, who've.

261
00:14:53,259 --> 00:14:54,899
been on a similar path.

262
00:14:55,143 --> 00:15:00,983
I thought about it in a way where
the initial joint team effort, the

263
00:15:00,993 --> 00:15:07,163
investment resources, et cetera, has
kind of gotten Muse into escape velocity

264
00:15:07,473 --> 00:15:10,086
and on some sort of, trajectory.

265
00:15:10,411 --> 00:15:15,558
That now, that you're out in outer
space where you need less resources

266
00:15:15,558 --> 00:15:17,958
to just keep, keep on the path.

267
00:15:18,461 --> 00:15:20,151
now you can keep going by yourself.

268
00:15:20,181 --> 00:15:23,421
That's obviously not something
that can be easily repeated

269
00:15:23,781 --> 00:15:28,954
since typically the intention of
investment is to make a big multiple.

270
00:15:29,569 --> 00:15:33,139
And I think that might be no longer
the assumed path for yourself.

271
00:15:33,379 --> 00:15:36,219
So, I think you're now in a
much more sustainable path.

272
00:15:36,669 --> 00:15:39,863
So, in a way that gave
you a unique opportunity.

273
00:15:40,183 --> 00:15:44,475
So, I'm, I'm curious, what were the
most surprising things for you over the

274
00:15:44,475 --> 00:15:47,335
last year or so since that transition?

275
00:15:47,926 --> 00:15:49,006
Man, so many things.

276
00:15:49,016 --> 00:15:53,370
It has been, such a wonderful year
and such an incredibly tough year.

277
00:15:53,510 --> 00:15:58,476
And I think there's so many things
throughout the entire five years

278
00:15:58,486 --> 00:16:01,246
that I can look at and really enjoy.

279
00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:06,091
And the older I get, the more I realize
that You know, life has chapters and

280
00:16:06,091 --> 00:16:09,431
that there are moments in time and then
those, you know, enjoy them or you don't.

281
00:16:09,471 --> 00:16:10,641
And then the moment is gone.

282
00:16:11,831 --> 00:16:18,588
And so I, I look back and, the  early
years with the team was amazing.

283
00:16:18,765 --> 00:16:22,751
the Muse team by far has been the best
group of folks I've ever worked with.

284
00:16:22,925 --> 00:16:27,468
just an incredible team in terms
of just the people, but also the

285
00:16:27,468 --> 00:16:31,895
interesting technical, problems
that we all over came together and,

286
00:16:32,348 --> 00:16:38,858
Transitioning from that very supportive
team, and just very efficient team.

287
00:16:38,868 --> 00:16:40,718
We worked, we worked really well together.

288
00:16:40,718 --> 00:16:43,986
we made decisions well together
and we moved forward together.

289
00:16:43,986 --> 00:16:50,776
Well, to suddenly be solo was, it
was a tough transition And, kind of

290
00:16:50,776 --> 00:16:56,070
to use that metaphor where, because
it's local-first, and because we're

291
00:16:56,745 --> 00:16:58,285
You know, a small scrappy team.

292
00:16:58,285 --> 00:17:01,435
We're not, you know, professional
house builders that build

293
00:17:02,045 --> 00:17:03,855
neighborhoods every week.

294
00:17:04,255 --> 00:17:06,025
Like, we're a bespoke house builder.

295
00:17:06,985 --> 00:17:10,285
And so then, we've built this
wonderful house, and then

296
00:17:10,285 --> 00:17:11,505
the rest of the team leaves.

297
00:17:12,205 --> 00:17:17,478
And, I suddenly have to find out, like,
huh, why, why is that pipe knocking?

298
00:17:17,498 --> 00:17:19,328
Or, oh, there's this weird leak over here.

299
00:17:19,358 --> 00:17:21,198
Or, huh, yeah, I forgot.

300
00:17:21,198 --> 00:17:23,028
I do need to vacuum this room once a week.

301
00:17:23,028 --> 00:17:26,878
Or, you know, like, I I don't know
where the metaphor ends, but you see

302
00:17:26,878 --> 00:17:31,028
where I'm going there's, it used to
be able to be maintained and, and held

303
00:17:31,028 --> 00:17:33,828
up by the team of seven that we were.

304
00:17:34,498 --> 00:17:38,738
And then suddenly to be holding it
all by myself, because this happened

305
00:17:38,738 --> 00:17:41,278
right at the time we launched Muse 3.

306
00:17:41,278 --> 00:17:46,638
So right as collaboration
changed, that came with a pretty

307
00:17:46,638 --> 00:17:48,328
sizable database migration.

308
00:17:48,838 --> 00:17:55,228
For users where the local corpus,
the local database they had on

309
00:17:55,228 --> 00:18:00,538
their devices needed to be migrated
as well as their synced data on

310
00:18:00,538 --> 00:18:01,888
the server needs to be migrated.

311
00:18:01,888 --> 00:18:07,318
So there are lots of new moving parts
and any big new release comes with.

312
00:18:07,978 --> 00:18:09,568
You know, exciting new bugs.

313
00:18:10,124 --> 00:18:16,037
that, that was by far the, one of the
hardest transitions ever was, everyone

314
00:18:16,047 --> 00:18:20,227
packed it up really nicely and handed me
the box and said, good luck out there.

315
00:18:20,792 --> 00:18:24,061
but then suddenly to be standing there
holding the box with all the stuff and

316
00:18:24,061 --> 00:18:29,161
realizing, okay, like, I've got to do
this, you know, I've got to hold on.

317
00:18:29,161 --> 00:18:32,157
And so it was, it was a big
transition those first few months.

318
00:18:32,819 --> 00:18:37,812
Lots of support tickets, lots of code,
lots of bug fixes and all the usual

319
00:18:37,812 --> 00:18:42,872
suspects, in terms of a big new release,
none of the bugs were huge or terrible.

320
00:18:42,902 --> 00:18:44,612
It was just lots of little bitty things

321
00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:49,666
and typically  Just after launch, this
is where you have increased everything.

322
00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,422
Like you have increased bugs, bug reports.

323
00:18:52,442 --> 00:18:57,802
You have increased messages that you
need to respond to increased public

324
00:18:58,042 --> 00:19:03,182
things that you need to comment
on, like make sure to leverage the

325
00:19:03,192 --> 00:19:07,562
positive buzz, et cetera, respond
to more critical things, et cetera.

326
00:19:07,572 --> 00:19:08,822
And that would have been hard enough.

327
00:19:09,207 --> 00:19:14,021
To pull off, with, the full house, but
now you've got to take on like all of

328
00:19:14,021 --> 00:19:16,667
those increased, issues by yourself.

329
00:19:17,027 --> 00:19:21,137
So hats off to, to having,
obviously having gone through that.

330
00:19:21,484 --> 00:19:21,934
Yeah.

331
00:19:22,014 --> 00:19:22,254
Yeah.

332
00:19:22,254 --> 00:19:22,674
Thanks.

333
00:19:22,674 --> 00:19:27,684
And, I mean, hats off to the team as
well for, for helping that transition

334
00:19:27,684 --> 00:19:31,524
because every single one of them knew
that this was the process, you know, that

335
00:19:31,524 --> 00:19:34,194
last month, that last two months and.

336
00:19:35,204 --> 00:19:39,814
Everyone put in a tremendous amount of
work to help that transition go smoothly.

337
00:19:39,884 --> 00:19:46,224
And so I owe, so much to their
work through that transition.

338
00:19:46,581 --> 00:19:47,621
to make that possible.

339
00:19:47,681 --> 00:19:48,701
I mean, it was huge.

340
00:19:48,701 --> 00:19:50,441
It couldn't have been
done literally by just me.

341
00:19:50,451 --> 00:19:54,701
It was the team that helped
that transition go through and.

342
00:19:55,711 --> 00:19:58,341
Yeah, it was, but it was a, yeah, it
was a tough spot because of course,

343
00:19:58,341 --> 00:20:03,203
there's a huge, a huge blog announcement
of "Muse is closing", but not really.

344
00:20:03,203 --> 00:20:04,411
We're not closing.

345
00:20:04,671 --> 00:20:06,441
By the way, here's a giant new release.

346
00:20:06,801 --> 00:20:09,381
By the way, here's a bunch of new
press and here's a bunch of new

347
00:20:09,451 --> 00:20:12,391
users and feedback and questions
and all that kind of stuff.

348
00:20:12,431 --> 00:20:13,641
And so, yeah, it was.

349
00:20:13,811 --> 00:20:19,841
It was a lot to, reply to all of those
things and fix the bugs and try and

350
00:20:20,224 --> 00:20:22,394
prioritize as, as best as I could.

351
00:20:22,934 --> 00:20:27,994
So, like you say that that's a, that was
a long and big transition, but I think

352
00:20:28,044 --> 00:20:33,884
now you seem to have made it quite cozy
for yourself in that, new old house.

353
00:20:34,164 --> 00:20:39,317
so how did you go about just making
things sustainable for yourself where

354
00:20:39,317 --> 00:20:44,192
I think you just need to Come to grips
to like a new kind of pace and cadence

355
00:20:44,442 --> 00:20:46,332
for what is a realistic roadmap?

356
00:20:46,642 --> 00:20:52,742
How do you slice and dice your week into,
this is the time I allocate to support.

357
00:20:52,942 --> 00:20:55,372
This is the time I allocate to marketing.

358
00:20:55,372 --> 00:20:58,432
This time I allocate to bugs.

359
00:20:58,566 --> 00:21:03,216
sometimes just unexpected things
happen and you might be suddenly

360
00:21:03,346 --> 00:21:05,816
facing a bug that is really critical.

361
00:21:06,056 --> 00:21:09,306
But might be like of the
shape of three weeks.

362
00:21:09,586 --> 00:21:11,616
how did you handle those
sort of situations?

363
00:21:12,052 --> 00:21:20,586
Yeah, I think, I think the biggest change
was as a team, we were fighting for scale.

364
00:21:21,019 --> 00:21:28,069
And so the biggest thing that we needed
to do was find large numbers of people.

365
00:21:28,654 --> 00:21:32,551
That fit Muse, so that we could
grow revenue dramatically.

366
00:21:32,921 --> 00:21:37,807
So that means the kinds of things
that we're focused on are broadly

367
00:21:37,807 --> 00:21:42,214
speaking, of course, new outreach,
new features, of course, we said like

368
00:21:42,214 --> 00:21:47,974
the majority of 2023 was focused on
teams and that was in collaboration.

369
00:21:48,414 --> 00:21:51,454
And that was because that gave us
an entirely new customer segment.

370
00:21:51,854 --> 00:21:56,681
That we could potentially go after
everything has trade offs and so in,

371
00:21:57,611 --> 00:22:02,367
in reaching for those new, customer
segments, we're building new features,

372
00:22:02,940 --> 00:22:10,137
which necessarily means that time spent
on bug fixes or small improvements or

373
00:22:10,137 --> 00:22:15,161
small tweaks, things like that, are
second place to the big new features

374
00:22:16,371 --> 00:22:18,001
because the big new features bring in.

375
00:22:18,693 --> 00:22:24,334
A bigger quantity of new people than
the incremental smaller fixes would.

376
00:22:25,071 --> 00:22:30,301
That I think is the biggest thing that
has changed because then going solo, I

377
00:22:30,301 --> 00:22:36,221
don't, I don't have the resources to try
and reach for enormous new audiences.

378
00:22:36,711 --> 00:22:41,871
The most important thing to me going
solo is, okay, I built this house.

379
00:22:41,901 --> 00:22:43,741
Let me make sure everyone's
happy living here.

380
00:22:43,801 --> 00:22:45,821
Let me make sure all of the
current customers are happy.

381
00:22:46,224 --> 00:22:46,944
the.

382
00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:52,059
Kind of professional user, the
solo user who kind of thinks

383
00:22:52,069 --> 00:22:53,979
privately and deep thinks in Muse.

384
00:22:55,459 --> 00:23:00,109
That's their, their cozy place to
kind of retreat to and think through.

385
00:23:00,629 --> 00:23:01,849
That's my core customer.

386
00:23:01,899 --> 00:23:03,769
I don't need to expand beyond that.

387
00:23:04,289 --> 00:23:11,062
And so the big shift was, then focusing
on, okay, let me take every time a

388
00:23:11,062 --> 00:23:16,522
support ticket comes in, that's a
priority because as a single person,

389
00:23:17,112 --> 00:23:19,102
I don't have near as much time.

390
00:23:19,574 --> 00:23:21,224
To handle support tickets.

391
00:23:21,234 --> 00:23:26,864
What was a very low percentage of support
time for seven people became a very

392
00:23:26,864 --> 00:23:29,104
high percentage for one person, right?

393
00:23:29,374 --> 00:23:33,954
And so, so as a single person, I
can't, I just can't dedicate that

394
00:23:33,954 --> 00:23:39,247
much time to support, which means
I needed to prioritize all of those

395
00:23:39,257 --> 00:23:41,627
little things that people would.

396
00:23:42,062 --> 00:23:46,292
email in about, man, I can't even think of
them now, but you know, just small little

397
00:23:46,292 --> 00:23:49,902
like, huh, isn't it weird that when I tap
over here, this other thing lights up.

398
00:23:50,062 --> 00:23:51,372
Can we just not have that happen?

399
00:23:51,752 --> 00:23:55,192
And that's been a bug that's been there
for three or four years, but kind of

400
00:23:55,192 --> 00:23:58,212
doesn't matter because it's just a
little thing and people work around it.

401
00:23:58,539 --> 00:23:58,979
But.

402
00:23:59,214 --> 00:24:02,834
When it's a, you know, a little burr on
the edge, when it's, when it's just a

403
00:24:02,844 --> 00:24:08,235
little rough area that kind of collects
support tickets, that's what I focused

404
00:24:08,245 --> 00:24:11,875
my attention on those first few months
was, okay, how can I smooth out all of

405
00:24:11,875 --> 00:24:18,844
these edges that we had known about,
but we're never the priority of the

406
00:24:18,844 --> 00:24:23,776
team because as a team, we were focused
on the bigger sustainability question.

407
00:24:24,014 --> 00:24:27,964
And now that that big sustainability
question had essentially been answered,

408
00:24:28,324 --> 00:24:31,664
that's what I needed to focus on
was all of the small little tasks.

409
00:24:31,664 --> 00:24:34,674
And so, you know, card alignment was one.

410
00:24:34,724 --> 00:24:37,882
And so now there's a little
keyboard command to just, shift

411
00:24:37,902 --> 00:24:39,622
cards and into card alignment.

412
00:24:39,702 --> 00:24:41,542
Um, a few.

413
00:24:41,802 --> 00:24:46,432
You know, small little bugs with selection
or with the way of the cards worked or,

414
00:24:46,693 --> 00:24:52,604
one that, that I, put out, I don't know,
relatively recently was, links to apps,

415
00:24:52,634 --> 00:24:54,444
app links, as opposed to web links.

416
00:24:54,574 --> 00:24:59,679
So there's a handful of other apps that
quite a few folks use with Muse that have.

417
00:25:00,069 --> 00:25:03,189
Local app links, and they'd like to be
able to drag those in and create cards.

418
00:25:03,374 --> 00:25:08,384
And so smoothing out the URL card, the
link card flow in Muse to better support,

419
00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:09,914
various things, things like that, right?

420
00:25:09,924 --> 00:25:14,702
Like it's taken individually, no one would
notice them, but then taken collectively,

421
00:25:14,702 --> 00:25:18,422
it actually makes a significant impact
on the support load, which then frees

422
00:25:18,422 --> 00:25:21,132
up a bunch of time to say, okay, now,
now what do I want to think about?

423
00:25:21,582 --> 00:25:22,732
What's the next big step,

424
00:25:23,268 --> 00:25:25,278
but that makes so much sense to me.

425
00:25:25,318 --> 00:25:29,408
And just to reflect on this also
a little bit in regards to, to my

426
00:25:29,408 --> 00:25:34,017
personal journey, working on Overtone
and working on, on Livestore.

427
00:25:34,367 --> 00:25:37,763
I also didn't have the luxury
to work on all of this, kind of

428
00:25:37,913 --> 00:25:41,592
in parallel with, distributing
the work across an entire team.

429
00:25:42,112 --> 00:25:43,822
I think of myself as single threaded.

430
00:25:44,912 --> 00:25:47,502
I need to work on things sequentially.

431
00:25:47,572 --> 00:25:51,772
And the longer I'm working on one thing,
the more I'm starving another thing.

432
00:25:51,772 --> 00:25:55,682
So I need to be like very, very
careful of what I'm putting my

433
00:25:55,682 --> 00:25:57,392
effort on and what I'm taking on.

434
00:25:57,892 --> 00:25:59,905
And, also, if.

435
00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:04,310
What I'm working on, if my attention
is sort of like a bucket, if there's

436
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:08,090
like, if there are holes in it, and
every time I'm trying to do something,

437
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:12,370
but it's constantly dragging me down,
I need to plug those holes first, since

438
00:26:12,410 --> 00:26:16,760
it's not just hurting maybe someone else
who has a bad time using this, but I'm

439
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,930
also having a bad time and one thing
I've really noticed about myself is

440
00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:26,550
like, I really need to, prioritize for
my own velocity and my own happiness.

441
00:26:26,780 --> 00:26:30,960
Working on this only with that, I can
build momentum and keep the energy up

442
00:26:30,970 --> 00:26:35,596
since I think that's probably also,
something that, you've experienced

443
00:26:35,616 --> 00:26:37,906
going from a team to working solo.

444
00:26:37,936 --> 00:26:43,626
Like a team provides sure, like, sometimes
a team can be, there can be some things

445
00:26:43,626 --> 00:26:47,620
that, take energy away from you, but a
good team and you had a fabulous team.

446
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,340
Gives you so much energy and now
you need to, be sort of like on

447
00:26:52,531 --> 00:26:57,166
subsistence, economy for like, you
need to, make sure that you bring

448
00:26:57,166 --> 00:27:01,976
in your own energy and anything that
erodes that energy is so critical.

449
00:27:02,521 --> 00:27:07,208
So, yeah, I have a huge amount of
admiration for like, how you've been

450
00:27:07,208 --> 00:27:11,871
able to, to go, and what you've been
mentioning in terms of maybe you didn't

451
00:27:11,871 --> 00:27:17,151
for the longer time work on some bigger
parts, but just making all of those,

452
00:27:17,161 --> 00:27:21,456
you already had a big part done in
the past as the foundation of Muse.

453
00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:27,360
And now working on like making everything
smooth, ironing out the little kinks.

454
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,053
And I think that's the best case
scenario for Muse users because

455
00:27:32,053 --> 00:27:33,273
now things are getting better.

456
00:27:33,333 --> 00:27:37,203
It's already in a shape that as a
Muse user, that's what I wanted.

457
00:27:37,723 --> 00:27:41,910
And, I think also one of the
biggest, question marks of like,

458
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,320
is this app going to go away
long term has also been answered.

459
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,653
So I think Muse, as long as
it's sustainable for you, I

460
00:27:48,653 --> 00:27:53,130
think it's a fantastic outcome
for, a product like Muse.

461
00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:54,990
So I'm, I'm very happy about that.

462
00:27:55,196 --> 00:27:56,046
Yeah, exactly.

463
00:27:56,046 --> 00:27:57,646
I think you've summed it up perfectly.

464
00:27:57,734 --> 00:27:58,864
it's as much about.

465
00:27:59,829 --> 00:28:04,516
Muse the business, of course, and to make
sure that that stays sustainable, but.

466
00:28:04,661 --> 00:28:06,081
It has to be sustainable.

467
00:28:06,341 --> 00:28:08,491
for me as a single person as well.

468
00:28:08,541 --> 00:28:13,764
And so prioritizing which of the holes
in the bucket do I need to prioritize

469
00:28:14,284 --> 00:28:17,664
for my own sanity sake, regardless
of what everyone else needs, right?

470
00:28:17,694 --> 00:28:20,574
It's just either taking up too much of
my time or it's too much of a drain.

471
00:28:20,981 --> 00:28:23,101
the community has been wonderful.

472
00:28:23,278 --> 00:28:27,496
and, there's a discord community
where, lots of the folks chat.

473
00:28:27,526 --> 00:28:28,586
And so they'll bring up.

474
00:28:29,571 --> 00:28:30,821
Some really great ideas.

475
00:28:30,851 --> 00:28:35,111
They've been a wonderful way for
me to bounce my own ideas off of to

476
00:28:35,111 --> 00:28:36,481
say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

477
00:28:36,481 --> 00:28:37,441
What do we think about this?

478
00:28:37,441 --> 00:28:38,991
I've noticed people have asked about this.

479
00:28:39,291 --> 00:28:43,795
because the biggest part for me
of losing that team is, losing

480
00:28:43,805 --> 00:28:46,014
the people to talk with right?

481
00:28:46,031 --> 00:28:49,751
Like, when you live on a deserted
Island all by yourself, you go crazy.

482
00:28:49,751 --> 00:28:53,121
You need other people to talk with.

483
00:28:53,521 --> 00:28:59,071
And so the community has, has helped fill
that role for me in many ways to, to be

484
00:28:59,071 --> 00:29:01,001
the sounding board, which has been great.

485
00:29:01,641 --> 00:29:02,141
And

486
00:29:05,251 --> 00:29:08,251
then prioritizing those
gave me my time back.

487
00:29:08,465 --> 00:29:11,975
In terms of the support load, because
those are the tickets I prioritize first,

488
00:29:12,535 --> 00:29:17,145
and then I was able to say, okay, now,
from the business standpoint, what is

489
00:29:17,145 --> 00:29:23,738
it I need to do for Muse as a business,
as opposed to Muse as a customer for

490
00:29:23,738 --> 00:29:29,814
customer support or personally or
anything else and this past year, 2024,

491
00:29:30,094 --> 00:29:32,574
I focused on two things primarily.

492
00:29:32,832 --> 00:29:38,245
The first one was Setapp integration,
so I don't know if your listeners

493
00:29:38,245 --> 00:29:39,265
are familiar with Setapp.

494
00:29:39,285 --> 00:29:41,555
It is essentially an
alternative App Store.

495
00:29:42,175 --> 00:29:48,015
You subscribe for a monthly fee
and then for that single monthly

496
00:29:48,015 --> 00:29:51,659
subscription, you get access to
everything in their library, every app.

497
00:29:51,659 --> 00:29:54,349
So Muse is now one of those apps.

498
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:59,215
And the way that's, that's Setapp, I
don't want to get into the weeds about

499
00:29:59,215 --> 00:30:03,505
the, how they manage the business and
revenue share and all that kind of stuff.

500
00:30:03,505 --> 00:30:07,075
But the point is, is out of that
monthly subscription, it is revenue

501
00:30:07,075 --> 00:30:11,315
shared with the applications
that that user actually uses.

502
00:30:11,855 --> 00:30:15,412
And so if they change what they
use months, month to month, the

503
00:30:15,422 --> 00:30:17,362
revenue share changes month to month.

504
00:30:18,102 --> 00:30:20,712
And so it feels fair to
you as the app creator.

505
00:30:21,477 --> 00:30:25,437
Yeah, so it's fair to me as the app
creator because I get paid based on usage.

506
00:30:26,050 --> 00:30:29,200
it's also fair based on
kind of the type of app.

507
00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:31,640
And so what would be.

508
00:30:32,170 --> 00:30:38,404
A 99 cents a year menu bar app in the App
Store, takes a smaller share than Muse,

509
00:30:38,424 --> 00:30:40,967
which is a significant, subscription.

510
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:47,000
And so it's fair, both for time
spent and for, the revenue split.

511
00:30:47,367 --> 00:30:47,977
Which is great.

512
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,177
And so that has been wonderful because
it has brought in an entirely new wave

513
00:30:54,207 --> 00:31:01,307
of subscribers who would otherwise
never purchase a subscription because

514
00:31:01,307 --> 00:31:04,767
they're on Setapp specifically
because they don't like subscriptions.

515
00:31:05,417 --> 00:31:09,292
So they're going to have one to Setapp
and use everything inside of Setapp

516
00:31:09,312 --> 00:31:14,702
instead of having 7 or 10 or 12 on the
App Store that they manage individually.

517
00:31:15,722 --> 00:31:18,982
And then similarly, the people that
do have individual subscriptions are

518
00:31:18,982 --> 00:31:22,232
typically not the people that are
going to have a Setapp subscription.

519
00:31:22,282 --> 00:31:25,662
And so it's really, you know,
the Venn diagram has very little

520
00:31:25,662 --> 00:31:28,635
overlap, which, brought in a.

521
00:31:29,045 --> 00:31:32,075
completely new segment of
customers, which was helpful.

522
00:31:32,562 --> 00:31:38,622
Where do you, yourself fall into this Venn
diagram and how did you arrive at that?

523
00:31:38,692 --> 00:31:43,569
This is integrating with Setapp
actually deserves to be like on

524
00:31:43,569 --> 00:31:46,929
your roadmap for a given year, since
there's only so many things you can do.

525
00:31:46,929 --> 00:31:50,289
So choosing your priorities
is really, really important.

526
00:31:50,419 --> 00:31:54,395
How did you arrive at, prioritizing
working on a Setapp integration?

527
00:31:54,995 --> 00:32:00,712
Yeah, it was an important piece because
so throughout the life of Muse, the early

528
00:32:00,712 --> 00:32:07,512
years revenue grew and then that last
probably year and a half revenue declined.

529
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,520
and so as I took Muse over solo
revenues, declining month over month.

530
00:32:13,904 --> 00:32:18,144
And so every time I'd wake up on the
first of a month, I would have less

531
00:32:18,144 --> 00:32:19,584
money coming in than the month before.

532
00:32:20,494 --> 00:32:20,814
Right.

533
00:32:21,247 --> 00:32:26,490
which is fine in the short term,
but obviously like everyone knows

534
00:32:26,490 --> 00:32:28,410
where the, where the slope intersect.

535
00:32:28,677 --> 00:32:30,517
hits the zero axis.

536
00:32:31,117 --> 00:32:35,047
So that that was a big priority was okay.

537
00:32:35,047 --> 00:32:39,637
How can I, how can I
change this trajectory?

538
00:32:40,510 --> 00:32:41,840
it needs to not be going down.

539
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:49,007
And so focused on, new revenue and
new customers was a very important.

540
00:32:49,307 --> 00:32:50,697
Piece of solving that.

541
00:32:51,497 --> 00:32:57,180
And that has been, really my guiding
principle over the past year was out of

542
00:32:57,190 --> 00:33:04,110
all of the App Store users, how can I.
You know, take a very kind of traditional

543
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:07,430
product management approach and measure.

544
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:10,910
I get this many people
from App Store browse.

545
00:33:10,990 --> 00:33:13,330
I get this many people on the
product page in the App Store.

546
00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:14,530
I get this many downloads.

547
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:16,550
I get this many people putting
their email address in.

548
00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:17,590
I get this right.

549
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,620
Like you can go down the
entire, the entire funnel.

550
00:33:21,205 --> 00:33:24,922
And where people getting
stuck, where is it confusing?

551
00:33:24,922 --> 00:33:27,822
Where's the biggest drop off between
people who think, oh, yeah, maybe

552
00:33:27,822 --> 00:33:29,682
I'll get this thing Muse a try.

553
00:33:29,782 --> 00:33:30,552
Oh, it looks neat.

554
00:33:31,192 --> 00:33:34,132
And then sometime later
they go, eh, no, thanks.

555
00:33:34,352 --> 00:33:34,562
Right?

556
00:33:34,792 --> 00:33:35,822
Like, why did, why did they go?

557
00:33:35,822 --> 00:33:36,392
No, thanks.

558
00:33:36,422 --> 00:33:37,742
Like, what, what was the miss?

559
00:33:38,172 --> 00:33:43,022
So I focused a lot on, that on what's
called the bottom of the funnel.

560
00:33:43,347 --> 00:33:47,077
So after they download, after they log in,
what is that first time user experience?

561
00:33:47,127 --> 00:33:50,207
And there's still quite a bit more
that I'm, I'm still focused on there.

562
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,670
And the other thing I worked on this past
year was Setapp, which was top of the

563
00:33:55,670 --> 00:34:01,090
funnel, bringing in a completely new pile
of users that had otherwise essentially

564
00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:04,580
not had access to Muse because they
would never use it on the App Store.

565
00:34:05,035 --> 00:34:10,822
And so the combination of those two things
has really helped flatten that decline.

566
00:34:10,862 --> 00:34:14,942
And so the Muse revenue over the
past year has stopped, declining so

567
00:34:14,942 --> 00:34:18,192
dramatically and has really started
to level off, which is important.

568
00:34:18,582 --> 00:34:24,102
So from use going forward over this
coming year, the goal, of course, is to

569
00:34:24,262 --> 00:34:28,662
continue that trend and start growing
again, start growing that user base.

570
00:34:28,682 --> 00:34:31,959
And that's going to be, more of
that same strategy more, of course,

571
00:34:31,959 --> 00:34:32,949
at the bottom of the funnel.

572
00:34:33,374 --> 00:34:35,994
There's lots of things I still want
to improve about the first time user

573
00:34:35,994 --> 00:34:42,387
experience, first time onboarding, kind of
early customer education with a website.

574
00:34:42,481 --> 00:34:46,330
we used to have a, a wonderful
video handbook that showed all of

575
00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:47,970
the fantastic gestures in Muse.

576
00:34:48,254 --> 00:34:51,074
So building something like that
again to help, to help new users

577
00:34:51,074 --> 00:34:53,607
become familiar with the very unique.

578
00:34:53,804 --> 00:34:57,497
interactions that Muse has, as well as
some things at the top of the funnel

579
00:34:57,497 --> 00:34:59,447
to bring in more, more customers.

580
00:34:59,894 --> 00:35:03,337
but I think holding all of those
perspectives in my mind has been one

581
00:35:03,337 --> 00:35:07,327
of the weirdest things and I think is
one of the most difficult things about

582
00:35:07,337 --> 00:35:13,134
being a solo entrepreneur because with
a team, of course, you can say, okay,

583
00:35:13,454 --> 00:35:17,264
this other person is going to handle,
you know, broadly speaking, they're

584
00:35:17,264 --> 00:35:18,334
going to be the marketing person.

585
00:35:18,344 --> 00:35:19,284
They're going to handle the funnel.

586
00:35:19,284 --> 00:35:20,604
They're going to think about partnerships.

587
00:35:20,604 --> 00:35:23,844
They're going to think about
content, marketing and social

588
00:35:23,844 --> 00:35:25,024
media and all that kind of stuff.

589
00:35:25,564 --> 00:35:29,684
I get to focus as an engineer on just the
sync engine and just a lot of the problems

590
00:35:29,684 --> 00:35:31,544
and just bugs and customer support.

591
00:35:32,134 --> 00:35:35,744
And this other team member gets to
write, like, obviously you separate your

592
00:35:35,744 --> 00:35:40,090
concerns, but when you're working on
your own, You have all of those concerns

593
00:35:40,090 --> 00:35:43,370
in your head at the same time and a lot
of times those compete with each other.

594
00:35:43,681 --> 00:35:46,835
that's been a very, I don't know
that there's a correct answer.

595
00:35:46,971 --> 00:35:53,916
I've kind of, come to my, my Zen place
and realized that I cannot do it all.

596
00:35:54,336 --> 00:35:55,576
I cannot do what I want.

597
00:35:55,636 --> 00:35:57,276
I don't have enough
time to do what I want.

598
00:35:57,816 --> 00:35:59,786
And frankly, I don't have
enough time to do what I need.

599
00:36:00,756 --> 00:36:04,566
So it's, you know, I, I can only
prioritize as best I can, but

600
00:36:04,566 --> 00:36:08,856
there is way too much on the plate.

601
00:36:09,481 --> 00:36:12,998
And so I, I've just had to accept
that, you know, sometimes I'm going

602
00:36:12,998 --> 00:36:15,578
to pick stuff up off the plate
and it's going to be a mistake.

603
00:36:16,178 --> 00:36:16,808
Oops.

604
00:36:17,218 --> 00:36:20,748
Let's get back to it and go to the
next thing and keep pushing forward and

605
00:36:20,748 --> 00:36:25,851
prioritize as best I can, which, was
another kind of realization over this past

606
00:36:25,851 --> 00:36:28,091
year was just the act of prioritizing.

607
00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:31,676
Takes away from the time
you have to do right?

608
00:36:32,146 --> 00:36:34,936
And so everything,
everything is a trade off.

609
00:36:34,936 --> 00:36:36,666
Deciding what to work on is a trade off.

610
00:36:36,706 --> 00:36:38,076
Working on it is a trade off.

611
00:36:38,076 --> 00:36:39,476
Like you're always giving up something.

612
00:36:39,896 --> 00:36:40,716
that has been.

613
00:36:41,086 --> 00:36:44,606
Easily the hardest, the hardest
piece of doing this alone,

614
00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:49,230
there's a few aspects to this that might
not be super intuitive unless you've done

615
00:36:49,230 --> 00:36:55,390
them, which is if you are so far, mostly
like the engineer, or you're mostly,

616
00:36:55,586 --> 00:36:59,806
someone who's working in marketing or
doing something else, you don't really

617
00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:04,056
do like the context switching between
switching between the entire modes.

618
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,350
I think this might be most intuitive
to a founder who has started out by

619
00:37:08,350 --> 00:37:12,190
themselves or with a very small founding
team in the early days where you're

620
00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:13,990
switching between the hats constantly.

621
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:16,870
But that context switching
is a double-edged sword.

622
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:23,050
It might, the positive side is that
through the perspective of engineering.

623
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:27,620
You might have a much more informed
perspective now to be more effective

624
00:37:27,673 --> 00:37:32,320
with your marketing hat on, but also
that context switch, doesn't come

625
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,110
for free that might, when you come
back into engineering, you might've

626
00:37:36,130 --> 00:37:39,740
already forgotten a lot about
the context that you had before.

627
00:37:40,210 --> 00:37:43,540
and another thing that I've
actually for my own health.

628
00:37:43,705 --> 00:37:48,388
sake, mental health sake, I actually
give a quite a bit of weight in

629
00:37:48,388 --> 00:37:50,288
terms of prioritizing what I work on.

630
00:37:50,688 --> 00:37:55,738
in terms of what I feel I have the
most energy for, what do I feel like

631
00:37:55,738 --> 00:37:57,958
I have the most inspiration for?

632
00:37:57,958 --> 00:38:03,645
This might be not the most, if, if
someone is like super structured, like

633
00:38:03,695 --> 00:38:08,487
a very rational mathematical in terms
of like, okay, by all of those metrics,

634
00:38:08,487 --> 00:38:10,245
this is the most important thing.

635
00:38:10,525 --> 00:38:11,585
I might still work on this.

636
00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:16,530
Second or third, most important thing,
just because I know I'm going to have

637
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:20,720
so much more energy working on that
and I can build up momentum this way.

638
00:38:20,740 --> 00:38:25,393
So this is something I've, I've seen
for myself that this works the best

639
00:38:25,713 --> 00:38:29,993
factoring into, into my decision
making on like what to prioritize.

640
00:38:30,255 --> 00:38:34,525
I can totally see how this is one of
the hardest things in, in your journey.

641
00:38:35,268 --> 00:38:39,998
but given that you're still on this
journey, I assume you're, the kind of

642
00:38:39,998 --> 00:38:42,218
person who sees the glass half full.

643
00:38:42,698 --> 00:38:47,105
So, I'm curious, like, what were some
of the highlights of the last, or

644
00:38:47,105 --> 00:38:51,965
since this new chapter, transitioning
from Muse as a team to Muse as a

645
00:38:51,965 --> 00:38:55,215
solo endeavor, what have been some
of the, like, the true highlights?

646
00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:59,615
the piece over the past year, year
and a half that I have loved the

647
00:38:59,615 --> 00:39:04,165
most by far is, I've started two
things and they're, they're related.

648
00:39:04,165 --> 00:39:06,555
So, in some ways, they're
just one big thing.

649
00:39:06,935 --> 00:39:08,615
I call it the Muse for Muse interviews.

650
00:39:10,565 --> 00:39:13,825
And so Muse, of course,
means inspiration, right?

651
00:39:13,825 --> 00:39:15,655
So, like, who is the inspiration for Muse?

652
00:39:16,115 --> 00:39:19,655
It is all of the people that
are, that are using Muse.

653
00:39:19,695 --> 00:39:23,815
It is the new people that are just
finding it and are excited to get that,

654
00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:25,142
where it just really fits for them.

655
00:39:25,758 --> 00:39:31,398
there are still so many that have used
Muse since, you know, version one, since

656
00:39:31,398 --> 00:39:36,645
it was just a, twinkle in the eye and test
flight and hadn't even been out to the App

657
00:39:36,655 --> 00:39:38,545
Store yet, but were the very, very first.

658
00:39:38,855 --> 00:39:39,745
Kind of test users.

659
00:39:40,415 --> 00:39:41,705
Do you call them users?

660
00:39:42,415 --> 00:39:43,815
Uh, yeah.

661
00:39:43,845 --> 00:39:47,485
So I was talking with my wife
and she, she called them Musers

662
00:39:47,555 --> 00:39:49,821
instead of users, which is fun.

663
00:39:50,121 --> 00:39:55,298
So yeah, but I've started,
scheduling interviews and saying

664
00:39:55,298 --> 00:39:57,328
like, Hey, I just love to, to learn.

665
00:39:57,358 --> 00:39:58,328
What do you do every day?

666
00:39:58,718 --> 00:40:00,818
How does Muse fit into your workflow?

667
00:40:01,225 --> 00:40:02,925
what else, what other apps do you use?

668
00:40:02,925 --> 00:40:04,225
What have you also, have you tried?

669
00:40:04,295 --> 00:40:07,553
What really grinds your gears?

670
00:40:07,553 --> 00:40:11,763
What are those little rough edges for you
that are just annoying, but kind of don't

671
00:40:11,763 --> 00:40:13,877
matter, but just take you out of the flow.

672
00:40:13,877 --> 00:40:14,627
Maybe a little bit.

673
00:40:14,883 --> 00:40:19,433
Those have been wonderful, both just
for the energy and the excitement

674
00:40:19,893 --> 00:40:24,167
to hear from them and, to hear
how Muse is making a difference in

675
00:40:24,167 --> 00:40:25,577
their workday and in their flow.

676
00:40:25,707 --> 00:40:30,154
And then, and it's also, wonderful
because you can start seeing patterns

677
00:40:30,588 --> 00:40:35,388
and the way that, people react and that
the types of things that they bring

678
00:40:35,388 --> 00:40:37,565
up dark mode is a common one, right?

679
00:40:37,595 --> 00:40:41,535
Like there's so many times in support
where I still get requests for dark mode.

680
00:40:41,575 --> 00:40:44,705
And so this coming year, I would
love to do something for dark mode.

681
00:40:45,105 --> 00:40:47,365
but as an example, as I'll talk
with somebody on one of these

682
00:40:47,365 --> 00:40:51,585
interviews, maybe it'll be 30 minutes,
sometimes an hour on a zoom call.

683
00:40:52,005 --> 00:40:56,165
It won't just be an email that says,
dear Adam, please make dark mode.

684
00:40:56,615 --> 00:40:56,875
Thanks.

685
00:40:56,875 --> 00:40:57,115
Bye.

686
00:40:57,945 --> 00:40:58,255
Right.

687
00:40:58,575 --> 00:41:01,795
But I, I actually hear, Oh,
this is where they're doing it.

688
00:41:02,015 --> 00:41:05,965
This is why they want dark mode
because they're in this library or

689
00:41:05,965 --> 00:41:09,198
in this class, or they have this
thing or who knows what, right?

690
00:41:09,208 --> 00:41:12,898
Like, another one I get is, Oh,
please enable more zoom options.

691
00:41:13,638 --> 00:41:14,198
Okay, great.

692
00:41:14,258 --> 00:41:14,498
Right.

693
00:41:14,538 --> 00:41:15,878
Like that's, that's a neat feature.

694
00:41:16,378 --> 00:41:19,248
But then when you're talking with
somebody and they're talking about how,

695
00:41:19,658 --> 00:41:24,418
Oh, The font size in this scenario is
actually a bit too small or sometimes

696
00:41:24,888 --> 00:41:28,048
when I don't have my glasses on or my
readers on the other side of the room,

697
00:41:28,048 --> 00:41:29,088
I'd really like to be able to zoom.

698
00:41:29,158 --> 00:41:34,272
And so you start hearing how
the accessibility feature that

699
00:41:34,272 --> 00:41:38,645
to an engineer's mind is just a
feature really fits into the day

700
00:41:38,655 --> 00:41:40,155
and really fits into the flow.

701
00:41:40,578 --> 00:41:42,298
And so that's been super inspiring.

702
00:41:42,783 --> 00:41:46,900
And you might also find some things
that were just, you as an engineer

703
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:48,520
note, oh, this is such a small thing.

704
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,670
You just haven't done it yet.

705
00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:55,010
And it might for someone who's using it,
just make all the world of a difference

706
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:57,450
to them from taking the app from like.

707
00:41:57,595 --> 00:42:03,505
being wished for that they couldn't use
it to actually using it on a daily basis.

708
00:42:03,865 --> 00:42:07,855
And it brings, like I say, it brings
so much energy and motivation to you

709
00:42:07,855 --> 00:42:12,795
as a builder to hear those stories and
like, knowing, okay, here's Alexandra

710
00:42:12,795 --> 00:42:17,355
over there and Alexandra is like loving
it in this use case, and I didn't

711
00:42:17,415 --> 00:42:19,665
ever, plan for that and it's happening.

712
00:42:19,675 --> 00:42:20,685
And that, that's great.

713
00:42:21,403 --> 00:42:22,223
Yeah, exactly.

714
00:42:22,233 --> 00:42:22,803
Exactly.

715
00:42:23,103 --> 00:42:26,943
And so that's something that, mean,
early in Muse's life, of course, it

716
00:42:26,943 --> 00:42:32,053
came from research and so user studies
and user interviews and interactions

717
00:42:32,053 --> 00:42:36,587
and stuff were a huge part of early
Muse's life and, and really a huge

718
00:42:36,587 --> 00:42:38,887
part of, of its early success.

719
00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:42,250
I started doing these interviews,
probably about four months

720
00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:43,950
ago, something like that.

721
00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:47,957
And gosh, with the impact they've
already had over those four months,

722
00:42:47,957 --> 00:42:49,067
I wish I'd done it on day one.

723
00:42:49,317 --> 00:42:52,153
You know, and I wish we'd
done it, every day since then.

724
00:42:52,193 --> 00:42:59,143
And so a big piece of going forward is how
can I get a consistent flow, especially

725
00:42:59,143 --> 00:43:01,603
a brand new users coming into Muse?

726
00:43:01,753 --> 00:43:05,763
And what is that brand new user
experience and then a consistent flow

727
00:43:05,803 --> 00:43:11,075
of longer term users, because I don't
want to over optimize for the long

728
00:43:11,075 --> 00:43:14,875
term users, because then no new people
are ever going to be able to fit.

729
00:43:15,405 --> 00:43:17,995
But I also don't want to over optimize
for the new users, because then

730
00:43:17,995 --> 00:43:21,785
they're going to be super happy for 6
months until they're a long term user.

731
00:43:21,785 --> 00:43:24,655
And they find out that long term
user problems are never solved.

732
00:43:25,265 --> 00:43:27,915
So it's a balance of making sure that I'm.

733
00:43:28,715 --> 00:43:32,285
Like, I mean, like we said, a thousand
times already, it's trade offs kind

734
00:43:32,285 --> 00:43:37,125
of all the way down, but  having those
interviews with real people using

735
00:43:37,125 --> 00:43:40,755
the app in a real experience and just
talking to them about their life and

736
00:43:40,765 --> 00:43:45,795
about their flow, no matter what stage
they're at, whether it's earlier or long

737
00:43:45,795 --> 00:43:48,228
term has been really, really valuable.

738
00:43:48,525 --> 00:43:53,385
And I think that the second thing
that I'll bring up that has been.

739
00:43:53,885 --> 00:43:57,785
Just a big joy and kind of a
wonderful, wonderful new thing.

740
00:43:58,268 --> 00:44:02,915
I'm starting, highlights for
how different people use Muse.

741
00:44:03,388 --> 00:44:06,578
And so we have one, that was just posted.

742
00:44:06,698 --> 00:44:07,838
that's up on our YouTube.

743
00:44:08,049 --> 00:44:12,641
the Muse YouTube channel with,
Conrad Levely, and how he uses

744
00:44:12,641 --> 00:44:15,121
Muse as part of his, research.

745
00:44:15,401 --> 00:44:18,271
So he has a whole handful of
different apps that he uses to

746
00:44:18,271 --> 00:44:20,161
explore various different topics.

747
00:44:20,794 --> 00:44:25,421
he's retired and as part of his
day now, he just loves learning and

748
00:44:25,431 --> 00:44:26,981
loves researching and loves reading.

749
00:44:27,001 --> 00:44:33,484
And so it is about how he uses Muse
in that workflow and over the coming

750
00:44:33,484 --> 00:44:36,351
months, I'm going to be releasing
more of these and inviting more, both

751
00:44:36,351 --> 00:44:41,778
long term and, and new Muse users, to
share how Muse fits into their life.

752
00:44:41,828 --> 00:44:46,078
Cause that's something I've heard
consistently from folks is boy, I really

753
00:44:46,078 --> 00:44:47,738
love Muse, but I'm really curious.

754
00:44:48,144 --> 00:44:49,944
it's such kind of an abstract tool.

755
00:44:50,604 --> 00:44:51,574
Am I using it right?

756
00:44:52,298 --> 00:44:58,988
I think this makes such a huge difference
that someone is aware of a certain product

757
00:44:59,048 --> 00:45:03,518
and think it's cool, but then they think,
okay, what does it have to do with me?

758
00:45:04,153 --> 00:45:09,703
And then move on and just seeing sort
of the usage scenarios, since like,

759
00:45:10,033 --> 00:45:14,403
obviously that person who's using
it seems to have figured something

760
00:45:14,403 --> 00:45:20,876
out, that makes them more effective,
productive, joyful, more in the flow.

761
00:45:21,196 --> 00:45:26,136
And, I want to be like that, but,
I need to see it first before I can

762
00:45:26,326 --> 00:45:30,106
connect the dots and say, ah, yeah,
this is how it fits into my life.

763
00:45:30,368 --> 00:45:30,928
Exactly.

764
00:45:30,948 --> 00:45:31,438
Exactly.

765
00:45:31,438 --> 00:45:31,658
Yeah.

766
00:45:31,658 --> 00:45:33,098
Muse is such a flexible tool.

767
00:45:33,098 --> 00:45:36,904
It's a, you know, you hand somebody a
stack of paper and everyone's going to

768
00:45:36,914 --> 00:45:38,294
do something different with that paper.

769
00:45:38,294 --> 00:45:41,004
Someone's going to bind a book and
someone's going to make post it notes and

770
00:45:41,004 --> 00:45:43,954
someone's going to make a small journal
and someone's going to sketch, you know?

771
00:45:43,954 --> 00:45:47,214
And so, I think there's a lot of
inspiration that can happen seeing

772
00:45:47,214 --> 00:45:50,324
how different people, use Muse
and seeing all of the different

773
00:45:50,324 --> 00:45:51,774
ways it can fit into your flow.

774
00:45:51,993 --> 00:45:53,073
And fit into your day.

775
00:45:53,143 --> 00:45:57,593
So, yeah, I think those 2 things have been
the biggest piece for me is interviewing

776
00:45:58,233 --> 00:46:03,047
and then, also just highlighting and
then being able to share,  how community

777
00:46:03,047 --> 00:46:06,937
members use Muse with the rest of
the community has been wonderful.

778
00:46:07,657 --> 00:46:13,267
So both the interviews as well as the
highlights are very strong on terms of

779
00:46:13,287 --> 00:46:18,587
the anecdotes of a particular person
and you can still remember that.

780
00:46:18,987 --> 00:46:20,007
But the.

781
00:46:20,227 --> 00:46:25,395
flip side,  that's the anecdotes and
then the other part is like actual data,

782
00:46:25,751 --> 00:46:30,212
that can inform how you're prioritizing,
working on something, et cetera.

783
00:46:30,445 --> 00:46:36,985
And that can be, I, for me, anecdotes are
a lot more intuitive and I've tried to

784
00:46:36,985 --> 00:46:39,788
measure enough things that I know, okay.

785
00:46:40,083 --> 00:46:43,780
Those measurements are always,
only like a partial picture.

786
00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:48,060
Sometimes you, particularly in
a local-first context, you don't

787
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:52,930
want to just like flip on telemetry
for every user where privacy

788
00:46:52,930 --> 00:46:54,350
is really important, et cetera.

789
00:46:54,360 --> 00:47:00,440
So how do you modulate between or
prioritize between anecdotes versus

790
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,380
data and how do you even have you
done anything to measure things?

791
00:47:05,420 --> 00:47:08,960
And how did you go about that
in a local-first context?

792
00:47:09,362 --> 00:47:09,802
Yes.

793
00:47:09,802 --> 00:47:14,235
So data is interesting because
It's so easy to collect

794
00:47:14,715 --> 00:47:16,715
enormous amounts of usage data.

795
00:47:17,735 --> 00:47:18,635
Was this feature used?

796
00:47:18,785 --> 00:47:19,335
Yes or no.

797
00:47:19,875 --> 00:47:21,305
How many times per day was it used?

798
00:47:21,615 --> 00:47:22,565
Was it used this week?

799
00:47:22,925 --> 00:47:25,505
You know, was it used in the
first month of the person?

800
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,990
Doing it or only after a month to,
you know, like you can, you can slice

801
00:47:28,990 --> 00:47:30,530
things a million different ways.

802
00:47:30,798 --> 00:47:37,094
so in products past, I have often said,
well, I don't know what's important.

803
00:47:37,104 --> 00:47:39,624
So I'm just going to collect a bunch
of data and I'll figure it out later.

804
00:47:39,907 --> 00:47:43,157
And then later comes around and
I have a huge pile of data that

805
00:47:43,937 --> 00:47:45,117
I don't know how to look at.

806
00:47:45,237 --> 00:47:46,417
And it's just overwhelming.

807
00:47:46,792 --> 00:47:53,036
So I wanted a completely different path
this time on, this was December, 2023.

808
00:47:53,036 --> 00:47:59,072
So a handful of months after taking over
Muse, I'd already done a lot on bug fixes.

809
00:47:59,102 --> 00:48:03,612
It was starting to kind of get, okay,
new users are happy, existing users are

810
00:48:03,612 --> 00:48:07,439
happy, the fires small as they were,
they've been put out for the new release.

811
00:48:08,066 --> 00:48:10,926
Let's look at the data and
figure out what's important.

812
00:48:10,946 --> 00:48:11,816
What do I need to look at?

813
00:48:12,126 --> 00:48:17,236
so in times past, I've had way too
much data and I didn't know how

814
00:48:17,236 --> 00:48:18,416
to pull out the answers from it.

815
00:48:19,036 --> 00:48:23,732
And so this time with Muse, I've been
very purposeful about saying, what are

816
00:48:23,732 --> 00:48:25,312
the important questions I need answered?

817
00:48:25,509 --> 00:48:27,469
Let me clarify to myself.

818
00:48:27,929 --> 00:48:29,539
What do I actually care about?

819
00:48:30,219 --> 00:48:32,009
What is the most important
thing that I need?

820
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:36,089
And then let me go collect data
specifically to answer this question.

821
00:48:36,467 --> 00:48:37,227
And that's it.

822
00:48:37,477 --> 00:48:39,737
And maybe that data could be
used for other questions too.

823
00:48:39,737 --> 00:48:43,737
And there's all sorts of different
stuff there, but I'm very purposefully

824
00:48:43,747 --> 00:48:49,917
limiting what I look at to only
the questions I know matter.

825
00:48:50,117 --> 00:48:55,284
And so the biggest question, that I had
initially going into it was that customer

826
00:48:55,284 --> 00:48:59,497
funnel, how many people hit, hit the App
Store page, how many people download,

827
00:48:59,507 --> 00:49:01,887
how many people log in, how many people.

828
00:49:02,179 --> 00:49:06,204
subscribe, and then there's kind of a,
a middle one, which I call activation.

829
00:49:06,214 --> 00:49:10,604
So between logging in and
subscribing, it's, are they

830
00:49:10,604 --> 00:49:11,734
getting value out of from Muse?

831
00:49:12,554 --> 00:49:17,334
Like, have they done something that
they've at least played with it enough

832
00:49:17,384 --> 00:49:20,684
that yeah, it seems to be, they understand
what they're saying yes or no to.

833
00:49:21,211 --> 00:49:25,864
So the first thing I did is I
downloaded, We, we don't use

834
00:49:26,137 --> 00:49:28,337
generally any third party trackers.

835
00:49:28,817 --> 00:49:33,807
So all of the data we have about
user behavior is on the Muse server

836
00:49:33,827 --> 00:49:35,507
and is not shared with anyone else.

837
00:49:35,507 --> 00:49:40,047
So it's not used for advertising or
for, you know, various other things.

838
00:49:40,327 --> 00:49:41,657
that's been a very important piece.

839
00:49:42,207 --> 00:49:43,857
And so I've been able to look at that.

840
00:49:44,292 --> 00:49:45,822
Kind of feature usage data.

841
00:49:46,522 --> 00:49:51,152
We don't collect any data in terms of
what are you physically typing into Muse?

842
00:49:51,442 --> 00:49:53,088
It's all about, did you use note cards?

843
00:49:53,232 --> 00:49:54,082
Did you use links?

844
00:49:54,122 --> 00:49:55,002
Did you use boards?

845
00:49:55,022 --> 00:49:55,962
That sort of stuff, right?

846
00:49:56,692 --> 00:50:01,602
Do you pull this out out of the sync
data or is that a separate thing that's

847
00:50:01,612 --> 00:50:03,412
completely separate from the sync?

848
00:50:03,422 --> 00:50:05,352
It is completely separate.

849
00:50:05,492 --> 00:50:11,012
And so, and there are no circumstance
in my poking around inside of sync data.

850
00:50:11,379 --> 00:50:13,069
that is a hundred percent kind of.

851
00:50:13,339 --> 00:50:14,829
Private tucked away.

852
00:50:15,329 --> 00:50:19,709
And then there's a separate piece
that is just product usage data.

853
00:50:20,339 --> 00:50:24,839
And so that, and that collects
none of the personal information

854
00:50:24,849 --> 00:50:25,899
that you're putting into Muse.

855
00:50:25,909 --> 00:50:27,009
It's only collecting.

856
00:50:27,389 --> 00:50:31,536
You know, sort of, did you click this
button or not kinds of data so the

857
00:50:31,536 --> 00:50:35,199
first thing I did is I downloaded,
did people use this feature?

858
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:40,809
Yes or no, across 30 different features,
30 different, 40 different things.

859
00:50:41,429 --> 00:50:43,219
And then did this person subscribe or not?

860
00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:47,419
And I gave me a giant table
of data that I looked into and

861
00:50:47,419 --> 00:50:50,219
said, okay, which of these.

862
00:50:50,686 --> 00:50:56,116
features using which of these features
is or is not correlated with subscribing

863
00:50:56,392 --> 00:51:01,902
and I narrowed it down to, I think,
six and so if people use all six of

864
00:51:01,902 --> 00:51:07,052
these features, then they are more
likely to subscribe than not and.

865
00:51:07,517 --> 00:51:13,457
What that means to me is, it's obviously
not just, okay, great, let me go force

866
00:51:13,457 --> 00:51:16,747
everyone to do these six things and then
clearly they're going to subscribe more.

867
00:51:17,007 --> 00:51:21,057
No, what it means is that, okay,
doing these six things gives them a

868
00:51:21,057 --> 00:51:23,097
real good feeling for what Muse is.

869
00:51:23,767 --> 00:51:26,937
And once they have a good feeling for
what Muse is, those kinds of people are

870
00:51:26,937 --> 00:51:28,517
going to more often than not subscribe.

871
00:51:29,537 --> 00:51:30,707
So I have that activation.

872
00:51:31,012 --> 00:51:32,052
That's what I call activation.

873
00:51:32,806 --> 00:51:36,856
so the report that I run connects
to, app figures, which connects to

874
00:51:36,856 --> 00:51:38,586
the App Store for App Store metrics.

875
00:51:38,899 --> 00:51:42,259
I can also connect to the App Store
directly because there are sometimes

876
00:51:42,299 --> 00:51:45,349
information that I want to get
kind of the raw data for instead

877
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:47,189
of app figures, aggregated data.

878
00:51:47,639 --> 00:51:52,812
I connect to the Muse server to get, more
detailed analytics about subscription and

879
00:51:52,822 --> 00:51:54,342
about activation and things like that.

880
00:51:54,524 --> 00:51:58,892
and I connect to the, we use
Fathom for website analytics.

881
00:51:59,032 --> 00:52:03,922
So it is a very privacy conscious
website analytics tracker.

882
00:52:04,352 --> 00:52:06,762
And so that gives me number
of visits, number of click

883
00:52:06,762 --> 00:52:07,812
throughs, things like that.

884
00:52:08,166 --> 00:52:11,596
so I pull all this data from three
or four or five different sources.

885
00:52:11,896 --> 00:52:17,606
And then together that gives me full
visibility from number who see the

886
00:52:17,606 --> 00:52:21,116
website, click through the App Store,
download link all the way down.

887
00:52:21,452 --> 00:52:25,289
And so once I have that data,
that's when I can say, okay, let

888
00:52:25,289 --> 00:52:26,469
me look at new user onboarding.

889
00:52:27,179 --> 00:52:33,147
What happens if I provide this kind
of video, or if I provide this kind of

890
00:52:33,147 --> 00:52:39,157
tutorial, or if I change this kind of
thing, is that better or worse for this

891
00:52:39,157 --> 00:52:41,417
single step from download to activation?

892
00:52:42,017 --> 00:52:45,507
Not even caring how it affects
subscriptions or anything else, but

893
00:52:45,507 --> 00:52:48,397
like, can I just change this metric?

894
00:52:48,811 --> 00:52:52,521
and so the times I've done this
over the past year, year and a half

895
00:52:53,041 --> 00:52:55,461
have been for onboarding, of course.

896
00:52:55,501 --> 00:52:57,791
So the first tutorials
that people can get.

897
00:52:58,721 --> 00:53:05,364
Also, Setapp has helped because Setapp
takes out the subscription altogether.

898
00:53:05,874 --> 00:53:09,894
And so then that very last
step from download to log in to

899
00:53:09,894 --> 00:53:12,737
activation to subscription p user.

900
00:53:12,757 --> 00:53:16,677
The only thing I need to care
about is download to log in to

901
00:53:16,677 --> 00:53:20,597
activation once they're using these
consistently, then that's when

902
00:53:20,597 --> 00:53:22,257
Setapp recurring revenue comes in.

903
00:53:22,841 --> 00:53:24,551
so that was important on the Setapp side.

904
00:53:24,986 --> 00:53:31,319
On the App Store side, I implemented,
sign in with Apple because Muse requires

905
00:53:31,319 --> 00:53:33,509
an account, for the sync server.

906
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:38,449
That means the first time download
experience, people load up Muse and they

907
00:53:38,449 --> 00:53:40,149
see, hi, give me your email address.

908
00:53:40,702 --> 00:53:45,042
Muse is very conscious more than I
think almost any other company I've

909
00:53:45,212 --> 00:53:46,902
seen or worked with about privacy.

910
00:53:47,612 --> 00:53:49,852
But when the first time user experiences.

911
00:53:50,302 --> 00:53:51,632
Hey, buddy, give me your email address.

912
00:53:52,182 --> 00:53:54,722
It doesn't, it doesn't inspire confidence.

913
00:53:54,939 --> 00:53:57,619
and so I implemented sign in with
Apple and then that lets people

914
00:53:57,619 --> 00:53:59,389
say, okay, let me use that.

915
00:53:59,579 --> 00:54:01,389
I can choose a private email address.

916
00:54:01,789 --> 00:54:06,529
I can maintain my privacy, but still
kind of create the account that allows

917
00:54:06,529 --> 00:54:08,719
for them use sync service to work.

918
00:54:09,089 --> 00:54:14,962
So that helps the download to login
step of that entire funnel flow.

919
00:54:15,042 --> 00:54:17,412
And so it's been rewarding to.

920
00:54:17,814 --> 00:54:23,464
focus on very specific places in that
funnel and say, okay, this piece right

921
00:54:23,464 --> 00:54:26,781
here, right after the download, what
kind of context does that person have?

922
00:54:27,161 --> 00:54:28,021
What do they need?

923
00:54:28,321 --> 00:54:29,401
What would be helpful?

924
00:54:29,667 --> 00:54:32,557
maybe new images in
the App Store or maybe.

925
00:54:32,856 --> 00:54:37,231
better tutorials on the website, or maybe,
you know, fill in the blank, but how

926
00:54:37,231 --> 00:54:41,360
can I get this from 92 percent to 96%?

927
00:54:42,041 --> 00:54:45,421
And then in theory, that will also have
downstream effects at the bottom of the

928
00:54:45,421 --> 00:54:50,221
funnel, but if for whatever piece that
I'm looking at, that is the biggest.

929
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:55,336
problem that has been very helpful
from a prioritization standpoint.

930
00:54:55,776 --> 00:55:00,732
And that has been very helpful, to keep
me focused because they're, you know,

931
00:55:00,742 --> 00:55:04,509
like I've said before, there's too
many things for me to work on that I

932
00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:07,099
have time in my life to physically do.

933
00:55:07,419 --> 00:55:11,632
And so when I am building, it can
be motivating and really helpful

934
00:55:11,632 --> 00:55:15,277
for me to say, Okay, Adam, remember,
you're focused on helping this

935
00:55:15,287 --> 00:55:17,427
person at this step in their journey.

936
00:55:17,811 --> 00:55:21,021
they would love to use Muse, but
they can't because they're stuck.

937
00:55:21,501 --> 00:55:22,661
And so you're going to help them.

938
00:55:22,681 --> 00:55:24,927
How how can you help this
kind of person get unstuck?

939
00:55:25,432 --> 00:55:28,472
and see what Muse is so that they can
decide whether it's a good fit for their

940
00:55:28,472 --> 00:55:29,952
life or not and for their workflow or not.

941
00:55:30,682 --> 00:55:36,196
and so that's been very helpful to
collect very specific, and still

942
00:55:36,196 --> 00:55:40,916
privacy preserving data that helped
me make decisions in terms of that.

943
00:55:41,234 --> 00:55:44,664
That flow, there's a handful of
other statistics I look at in terms

944
00:55:44,664 --> 00:55:49,164
of like App Store revenue or Setapp
revenue, subscription counts,

945
00:55:49,174 --> 00:55:51,454
cancellations, those sorts of things.

946
00:55:51,454 --> 00:55:55,381
But broadly speaking, that funnel
data has been the most important and

947
00:55:55,481 --> 00:56:00,307
for prioritizing my, my work and in
the world of data, it's a very small

948
00:56:00,307 --> 00:56:03,464
piece, compared to the data pile.

949
00:56:03,484 --> 00:56:07,204
I've seen at other companies or
in previous things, it's it's

950
00:56:07,204 --> 00:56:09,334
really helped keep me focused.

951
00:56:09,787 --> 00:56:14,681
In terms of Muse being a local-first
app, as opposed to being like a more

952
00:56:14,741 --> 00:56:17,804
traditional, cloud based SaaS app.

953
00:56:18,174 --> 00:56:22,827
Is there anything that you thought
about different when it comes to,

954
00:56:23,177 --> 00:56:27,327
getting better insights through
data into how users are using it?

955
00:56:27,367 --> 00:56:31,991
So, there's this interesting balance
between, uh, local-first really tries to

956
00:56:31,991 --> 00:56:37,981
preserve the privacy, a user and you with
the best intentions of like, Building this

957
00:56:38,001 --> 00:56:40,731
app for the people who you want to serve.

958
00:56:41,041 --> 00:56:43,791
And yet you need a little
bit of visibility into this.

959
00:56:44,151 --> 00:56:48,671
Have you thought about this for Muse
differently than for previous apps?

960
00:56:49,091 --> 00:56:52,841
And did you build the analytics
stack from a technological

961
00:56:52,841 --> 00:56:56,761
perspective in any different way
than you've built previous ones?

962
00:56:57,177 --> 00:56:57,507
Yeah.

963
00:56:57,507 --> 00:57:02,494
So when I, joined Muse, in 2020, the
analytics stack that's still being

964
00:57:02,494 --> 00:57:08,511
used was built already and that was,
implemented entirely on the Muse server.

965
00:57:09,101 --> 00:57:12,761
So that way, none of the analytics
data went to a third party.

966
00:57:13,241 --> 00:57:14,961
It kind of stayed within Muse.

967
00:57:15,481 --> 00:57:16,831
And so that was very helpful.

968
00:57:16,931 --> 00:57:22,391
And then, like I mentioned before,
that analytics data that we collect is

969
00:57:22,421 --> 00:57:29,775
entirely separate from the actual synced
data of a person's library in Muse.

970
00:57:30,530 --> 00:57:34,280
Is there still like the same
sort of identity behind it or

971
00:57:34,340 --> 00:57:38,843
how does, user privacy preserving
look like at that point?

972
00:57:38,863 --> 00:57:43,450
Do you, for example, like have something
that is, identifying a user, but you

973
00:57:43,460 --> 00:57:48,540
hash it so you can't like, correlate it
anymore or, how are you going about that?

974
00:57:49,110 --> 00:57:53,530
Yeah, so it does use the same user ID.

975
00:57:54,110 --> 00:57:57,626
And so I can see, which is
helpful for our support tickets.

976
00:57:57,676 --> 00:58:02,736
And so when a support ticket comes in,
I can see, obviously, when the person

977
00:58:02,736 --> 00:58:04,796
signed up, if they're subscribed or not.

978
00:58:05,113 --> 00:58:11,340
And I can also see, which devices they
have synced to the sync server and how

979
00:58:11,340 --> 00:58:13,260
recently those devices were connected.

980
00:58:13,940 --> 00:58:18,160
Because far and away one of the
most common support requests I get

981
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,479
is Usually a one line email that
says: Hey, sync, is it working?

982
00:58:21,479 --> 00:58:25,561
Or, Hey, there's a problem with my iPhone.

983
00:58:25,721 --> 00:58:26,901
Uh, how can I fix it?

984
00:58:27,791 --> 00:58:30,431
And so I can immediately look
and say, okay, I don't see an

985
00:58:30,431 --> 00:58:34,381
iPhone on their account, clearly
it's not connected correctly.

986
00:58:34,391 --> 00:58:35,851
And so that helps me reply.

987
00:58:36,528 --> 00:58:39,868
but that, that is kind of the
only connection is that user ID.

988
00:58:39,968 --> 00:58:40,878
So I do see.

989
00:58:41,326 --> 00:58:45,766
User behavior, and then there's a separate
bucket that has all the user synced data.

990
00:58:46,426 --> 00:58:51,343
But the most important guiding principle
through the entire life of Muse has

991
00:58:51,353 --> 00:58:58,043
always been, the user's synced data,
their library data is off limits.

992
00:58:58,813 --> 00:59:00,763
It, there's just, it's
just never looked at.

993
00:59:01,293 --> 00:59:06,023
It's never looked at by a human and
it's never looked at by a robot either.

994
00:59:06,033 --> 00:59:08,513
Like we don't run analytics on it.

995
00:59:08,553 --> 00:59:11,993
We don't run scripts to see
how things do like it is.

996
00:59:13,063 --> 00:59:17,083
It is its own little box in
the closet that is not touched.

997
00:59:17,333 --> 00:59:21,933
And then that way, the only data that
we see that is used for analytics

998
00:59:22,243 --> 00:59:27,990
is, the feature usage data that we
specifically send, that does not

999
00:59:27,990 --> 00:59:30,340
contain any of the actual library data.

1000
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,970
None of the text, none of the ink,
none of the boars, none of the content,

1001
00:59:33,970 --> 00:59:35,480
none of that kind of stuff lands there.

1002
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,723
It's just, oh, they made a board card.

1003
00:59:37,953 --> 00:59:38,463
Okay, great.

1004
00:59:39,048 --> 00:59:41,058
I need to know if people make
board cards or not, because if

1005
00:59:41,058 --> 00:59:42,861
they don't, what are they doing?

1006
00:59:42,891 --> 00:59:45,281
Because Muse is based around
boards and whiteboards.

1007
00:59:45,348 --> 00:59:50,018
Yeah, I think it's this interesting
balance where with local-first, we

1008
00:59:50,048 --> 00:59:54,898
obviously want to move beyond the
status quo of how software is being

1009
00:59:54,898 --> 01:00:00,368
built traditionally yet, or in terms
of how software is deployed and

1010
01:00:00,388 --> 01:00:05,478
architected in a way traditionally,
but yet a lot of the more traditional.

1011
01:00:05,758 --> 01:00:08,898
Product management learning still apply.

1012
01:00:08,908 --> 01:00:10,868
Like we still don't want to fly blind.

1013
01:00:11,128 --> 01:00:14,498
We still need to understand what
the users are doing, et cetera.

1014
01:00:14,498 --> 01:00:19,981
So there is a slight tension there
between still like knowing how are

1015
01:00:20,171 --> 01:00:21,901
our users successful with the app?

1016
01:00:21,921 --> 01:00:23,101
Are they struggling?

1017
01:00:23,101 --> 01:00:24,401
Where are they falling off?

1018
01:00:24,751 --> 01:00:29,645
And yet, The, that the user's private
data is sacred and you don't touch it yet.

1019
01:00:29,655 --> 01:00:34,135
You don't even have a way to look
into it as it's encrypted, et cetera.

1020
01:00:34,585 --> 01:00:39,836
So I'm curious, like what will the
ideal analytics stack for local-first

1021
01:00:39,856 --> 01:00:44,073
apps, maybe look like in the coming
years to have some intuitions or some

1022
01:00:44,083 --> 01:00:48,023
wishes for like, this is what the
ideal stack there would look like.

1023
01:00:48,023 --> 01:00:49,243
And someone should build it.

1024
01:00:49,764 --> 01:00:53,317
I think the way that we've done
it at Muse, is a really good

1025
01:00:53,317 --> 01:00:55,247
first step and is, is really good.

1026
01:00:55,247 --> 01:00:59,850
I think it's, table stakes for the way
that any business should operate where

1027
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:05,750
the user's private data is on one side
of the world and the data you use for

1028
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:09,100
analytics and for product decisions
is on the other side of the world.

1029
01:01:09,540 --> 01:01:10,950
And those two just never meet.

1030
01:01:11,410 --> 01:01:15,845
because there's no, situation where
any kind of product person should

1031
01:01:15,855 --> 01:01:20,315
have any kind of visibility at
all into someone's private data.

1032
01:01:20,682 --> 01:01:25,375
And so that, I think, is the most
important piece, that was there from day

1033
01:01:25,375 --> 01:01:28,205
one at Muse and continues today at Muse.

1034
01:01:28,482 --> 01:01:31,572
collecting as little as possible,
I think, is also important.

1035
01:01:31,862 --> 01:01:38,835
And, that's been true with Muse
where the third, it's so easy to

1036
01:01:38,855 --> 01:01:40,785
say, Oh, look, a new data provider.

1037
01:01:40,965 --> 01:01:43,985
Let me just go like, let
me go integrate mix panel.

1038
01:01:44,225 --> 01:01:45,545
Let me go integrate apps fire.

1039
01:01:45,555 --> 01:01:49,465
Let me go integrate, you know, you
could put in four or five SDKs and

1040
01:01:49,465 --> 01:01:54,325
suddenly start sending out analytics
to five different advertising companies

1041
01:01:54,925 --> 01:01:56,785
with like three lines of code, right?

1042
01:01:56,785 --> 01:01:58,685
Like it's very easy to do.

1043
01:01:59,222 --> 01:02:04,092
and I think being very cautious and
purposeful about what kind of data

1044
01:02:04,222 --> 01:02:08,412
you're collecting and making sure
you're doing it to answer specific

1045
01:02:08,412 --> 01:02:10,522
questions is really important.

1046
01:02:10,775 --> 01:02:14,175
And that's what I've done at Muse
over the past year and a half.

1047
01:02:14,175 --> 01:02:19,195
And that's what we did at Muse in the
years before that as well is making

1048
01:02:19,195 --> 01:02:21,065
sure that we, the data we do collect.

1049
01:02:21,435 --> 01:02:26,265
stays just within Muse and doesn't
leak off to other third party

1050
01:02:26,265 --> 01:02:32,719
advertising, firms, and that we use
that data responsibly and that one

1051
01:02:32,719 --> 01:02:36,349
of the ways that we do that is that
we don't collect more than we need

1052
01:02:36,349 --> 01:02:37,939
and we don't collect private things.

1053
01:02:38,029 --> 01:02:43,117
Your private data doesn't land in
the product decision repository, and

1054
01:02:43,117 --> 01:02:47,047
that's, I think should be table stakes
for any company, but especially for

1055
01:02:47,047 --> 01:02:52,327
local-first, where, where privacy is, is
job number 1 and is really purpose number

1056
01:02:52,327 --> 01:02:54,507
1 in many ways of local for software.

1057
01:02:54,967 --> 01:03:00,067
So slightly shifting gears a little
bit to another aspect where we need to

1058
01:03:00,067 --> 01:03:04,937
kind of reinvent the wheel, a little
bit for local-first software, which

1059
01:03:04,967 --> 01:03:07,067
is how do you charge for software?

1060
01:03:07,067 --> 01:03:13,770
And I think in your case, I think you
have a somewhat easier, foundation

1061
01:03:13,770 --> 01:03:17,980
for that already, given that you
started in the Apple ecosystem where

1062
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,297
you can say many things about the
Apple App Store, et cetera, like

1063
01:03:22,297 --> 01:03:24,387
how it charges an arm and a leg.

1064
01:03:24,762 --> 01:03:29,792
But, at least from the user perspective,
there's already a well trotting path

1065
01:03:30,212 --> 01:03:36,452
for how are you going to get some money
and now you've extended on top of that

1066
01:03:36,522 --> 01:03:42,057
with Setapp, I think a lot of other
local-first apps are built primarily

1067
01:03:42,067 --> 01:03:47,387
starting from the web, where I think it's
a lot more challenging, but yeah, how

1068
01:03:47,397 --> 01:03:54,137
much of a easy versus difficult part was
the getting actually paid for working

1069
01:03:54,137 --> 01:03:59,074
on the app and, do you have thoughts
on, what that could have looked like

1070
01:03:59,084 --> 01:04:00,964
when you would have started in the web?

1071
01:04:01,450 --> 01:04:02,060
Yeah.

1072
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,217
I think my default is to always think
about things in terms of the almost

1073
01:04:07,217 --> 01:04:10,217
every single time I go back to the
customer funnel, which is essentially

1074
01:04:10,217 --> 01:04:11,817
what it was, the customer experience.

1075
01:04:12,294 --> 01:04:14,854
As you mentioned, the nice
thing about the Apple ecosystem

1076
01:04:14,984 --> 01:04:16,724
is the customer experiences.

1077
01:04:16,814 --> 01:04:17,804
Oh, do I want this or not?

1078
01:04:19,254 --> 01:04:22,364
One tap on the subscribe button,
the prompt comes up and it's

1079
01:04:22,364 --> 01:04:24,254
either face ID or a fingerprint.

1080
01:04:24,794 --> 01:04:25,324
And then,

1081
01:04:27,944 --> 01:04:33,607
so it's essentially like one and a half
steps from decision to money on the web.

1082
01:04:33,952 --> 01:04:37,732
It's often significantly
harder, and that is, okay.

1083
01:04:37,732 --> 01:04:38,432
Do I want to do it?

1084
01:04:38,522 --> 01:04:38,862
Okay.

1085
01:04:38,862 --> 01:04:39,022
Yeah.

1086
01:04:39,022 --> 01:04:39,872
Let me go click in.

1087
01:04:40,132 --> 01:04:40,562
Okay.

1088
01:04:40,750 --> 01:04:42,019
probably have to choose a plan.

1089
01:04:42,272 --> 01:04:43,202
Let me choose a plan.

1090
01:04:43,432 --> 01:04:43,852
Okay.

1091
01:04:43,852 --> 01:04:46,122
Well, now I have to enter
my credit card information.

1092
01:04:46,545 --> 01:04:46,805
Okay.

1093
01:04:46,805 --> 01:04:47,915
Now it wants my address.

1094
01:04:47,955 --> 01:04:51,315
Well, now it wants my billing address,
which is the same as my address, but

1095
01:04:51,325 --> 01:04:52,535
it has a separate, separate field.

1096
01:04:52,535 --> 01:04:54,825
And so then I click okay, and
then it gives me the summary

1097
01:04:54,825 --> 01:04:55,695
and then I click checkout.

1098
01:04:55,715 --> 01:04:55,905
Right?

1099
01:04:56,305 --> 01:04:58,025
So suddenly that's like
a four or five step

1100
01:05:00,549 --> 01:05:04,555
regardless of the, even separate
from the decision of, is this a

1101
01:05:04,655 --> 01:05:08,845
subscription or is this a one time
payment or relatively one time payment?

1102
01:05:09,259 --> 01:05:11,929
so the biggest thing that I
think about is how can you make

1103
01:05:11,929 --> 01:05:14,129
that experience much simpler?

1104
01:05:14,835 --> 01:05:20,545
and how can you make that experience
trustworthy and the nice thing about

1105
01:05:20,545 --> 01:05:22,255
the App Store is it gives you both.

1106
01:05:22,449 --> 01:05:25,879
It is trustworthy because it, the
purchase is the exact same every

1107
01:05:25,879 --> 01:05:27,779
single time and it goes through Apple.

1108
01:05:28,209 --> 01:05:30,689
So people don't have to trust me.

1109
01:05:30,739 --> 01:05:35,215
They can just trust Apple and on the
web, you have to overcome both barriers.

1110
01:05:35,345 --> 01:05:39,095
You have to become trustworthy enough
that someone says, why should I put

1111
01:05:39,095 --> 01:05:40,575
my credit card in this random website?

1112
01:05:41,505 --> 01:05:44,335
And you have to make
it simple enough that.

1113
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:49,390
On step three out of seven, they don't
say, man, this is so much trouble.

1114
01:05:49,627 --> 01:05:50,547
actually nevermind.

1115
01:05:51,047 --> 01:05:54,327
part of it, some, I think
Patreon helps with some of that,

1116
01:05:54,830 --> 01:05:56,800
subscriptions help with some of that.

1117
01:05:57,004 --> 01:06:02,137
sometimes even if it's a web based
service, there might be, iPhone app

1118
01:06:02,137 --> 01:06:06,437
components to it or Android app components
to it, or native Mac components to

1119
01:06:06,437 --> 01:06:08,300
it, helper apps, things like that.

1120
01:06:08,660 --> 01:06:12,050
And sometimes those could be paid
for even when the web is free.

1121
01:06:12,534 --> 01:06:16,564
it, it really depends per
business, but it's difficult.

1122
01:06:16,654 --> 01:06:19,964
Like that's, that's one of the hardest
things, especially as an independent

1123
01:06:20,004 --> 01:06:27,030
software developer to decide what
your business model is, is a difficult

1124
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:31,474
decision to physically implement all of
the infrastructure to make that business

1125
01:06:31,474 --> 01:06:33,064
model possible to take someone's money.

1126
01:06:33,554 --> 01:06:40,017
Is difficult and then finding out, huh,
this payment provider has four steps, but

1127
01:06:40,017 --> 01:06:43,147
if I'd use this other payment provider,
it would have been two and a half steps.

1128
01:06:43,474 --> 01:06:45,534
Should I spend another 2 months moving?

1129
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:51,257
I think this is sort of a reoccurring
theme that, to pull off local-first.

1130
01:06:51,362 --> 01:06:57,712
is very hard and to pull it off in the
web is the hardest mode so far, since,

1131
01:06:57,762 --> 01:07:03,972
not just from the perspective of having
all of the technical capabilities that

1132
01:07:03,982 --> 01:07:07,902
a native platform provides that you
have it in the web, it gets increasingly

1133
01:07:07,912 --> 01:07:14,332
better with things like the file system
APIs, WASM, et cetera, but on macOS.

1134
01:07:14,577 --> 01:07:18,607
At some point you click on that download
button, maybe you've paid before, maybe

1135
01:07:18,617 --> 01:07:20,967
afterwards, and now you have a DMG file.

1136
01:07:21,287 --> 01:07:24,767
And that is, you can still
put it on a floppy drive if

1137
01:07:24,767 --> 01:07:26,897
you want to, and that's yours.

1138
01:07:27,057 --> 01:07:28,807
That's hopefully still gonna work.

1139
01:07:28,837 --> 01:07:32,357
It's most likely still gonna work
unless it's like all sassified.

1140
01:07:32,857 --> 01:07:38,587
But in the web, you have like, Visited
a website before and in Safari, if you

1141
01:07:38,587 --> 01:07:43,797
haven't visited that in so long, it's
going to like wipe all of your cash.

1142
01:07:44,087 --> 01:07:46,377
So what is the equivalent of a DMG?

1143
01:07:46,527 --> 01:07:48,727
And then you haven't even
started about payment.

1144
01:07:49,154 --> 01:07:50,554
so that's a lot harder.

1145
01:07:50,584 --> 01:07:55,680
And I think you've been, smart about
choosing, or I guess that's just

1146
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:00,729
been inherently an implication of
The beginnings of Muse to start in

1147
01:08:00,739 --> 01:08:06,255
the Apple ecosystem where you could,
sort of sidestep a bunch of the still

1148
01:08:06,375 --> 01:08:12,039
open questions around local-first
software by, like piggybacking on a

1149
01:08:12,049 --> 01:08:14,559
more mature ecosystem in many regards.

1150
01:08:14,935 --> 01:08:15,785
Yeah, absolutely.

1151
01:08:15,785 --> 01:08:19,265
I think that's the, that's
easily the hardest part about.

1152
01:08:19,705 --> 01:08:23,805
Building any new product is the
technical challenges of whatever platform

1153
01:08:23,805 --> 01:08:28,079
you're on, the customer challenges
of finding a way for them to pay.

1154
01:08:28,529 --> 01:08:32,134
in a way that is fair for
them, and they are comfortable

1155
01:08:32,134 --> 01:08:33,544
with, and that is trustworthy.

1156
01:08:34,174 --> 01:08:41,160
And whatever that process is, is going
to carry its own technical ballot baggage

1157
01:08:41,390 --> 01:08:43,987
of implementation that you have to carry.

1158
01:08:44,307 --> 01:08:48,047
and so it's just a
difficult thing to balance.

1159
01:08:48,460 --> 01:08:50,030
what is that business model?

1160
01:08:50,337 --> 01:08:52,677
how can I implement this
business model in a way that the

1161
01:08:52,677 --> 01:08:53,502
customers are comfortable with?

1162
01:08:54,252 --> 01:08:58,462
Are comfortable with and even if
you figured out those first two,

1163
01:08:58,542 --> 01:09:02,832
sometimes the technical hurdle
to implement it is too big.

1164
01:09:03,305 --> 01:09:06,705
You know, like we said before, it's
trade offs all the way down and that

1165
01:09:06,985 --> 01:09:10,255
sometimes those, those trade offs,
even affect that business model

1166
01:09:10,255 --> 01:09:11,525
or even affect the payment model.

1167
01:09:12,036 --> 01:09:17,176
in terms of the platforms, given there's
multiple platforms and more than we

1168
01:09:17,176 --> 01:09:22,706
talked about so far, looking at the
history of Muse, you started on the iPad.

1169
01:09:22,961 --> 01:09:25,291
A bit later, there was a Mac app.

1170
01:09:25,671 --> 01:09:29,911
And, if I'm not mistaken, there
are at least plans to conquer a

1171
01:09:29,911 --> 01:09:31,941
few more platforms going forward.

1172
01:09:32,341 --> 01:09:36,561
I'm curious whether looking back, you
think this was the right sequencing

1173
01:09:36,601 --> 01:09:42,451
of platforms or whether you could have
seen like an entirely different path,

1174
01:09:42,491 --> 01:09:47,265
maybe going all the way with the web
first, looking at, I'm sure whether

1175
01:09:47,265 --> 01:09:50,875
you see it as a competitor or as a
similar app, something like TLdraw.

1176
01:09:51,306 --> 01:09:54,556
they have obviously started out
their journey all the way in the web.

1177
01:09:54,576 --> 01:09:59,296
And I think they're embracing the
openness and the, like, everyone

1178
01:09:59,296 --> 01:10:00,576
knows what to do with the link.

1179
01:10:00,606 --> 01:10:04,926
You click it and then you're already in
a new app without having to install it.

1180
01:10:04,926 --> 01:10:08,406
So entirely different
possibilities, trade offs.

1181
01:10:08,856 --> 01:10:12,836
So how did you think about the
sequencing of the platforms

1182
01:10:12,836 --> 01:10:16,106
and any regrets in that regard?

1183
01:10:16,350 --> 01:10:17,840
So we started out on the iPad.

1184
01:10:18,290 --> 01:10:24,666
And this was in the time, right before
I arrived at Muse where Inside of

1185
01:10:24,666 --> 01:10:28,316
Ink & Switch as part of its research and
as part of its kind of human computer

1186
01:10:28,316 --> 01:10:33,596
interaction design research was, what
does that tablet experience look like?

1187
01:10:34,316 --> 01:10:40,530
And what does it mean to have that
form factor to have a pencil where you

1188
01:10:40,530 --> 01:10:44,000
can write ink and to still be able to
type and manipulate with your hands?

1189
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:45,870
How can we, how can we make
this interesting thing?

1190
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:52,730
And so starting out on the, as the tablet
was really the heart and soul of Muse and

1191
01:10:52,730 --> 01:10:54,800
I, I can't see a way that you would get.

1192
01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:58,970
Muse without starting with that seed.

1193
01:10:59,580 --> 01:11:03,340
So I think that was, and yeah,
in many ways that, yeah, that was

1194
01:11:03,340 --> 01:11:05,860
the important place from there.

1195
01:11:05,860 --> 01:11:06,620
Where do we go?

1196
01:11:06,770 --> 01:11:11,120
I think, I think we did make the
correct decision to go to Mac next.

1197
01:11:11,695 --> 01:11:16,835
The iPhone was always kind of a helper
tool, for, collecting content and

1198
01:11:16,835 --> 01:11:18,891
for bringing things into your Muse.

1199
01:11:19,365 --> 01:11:22,175
The next big workhorse was the Mac app.

1200
01:11:22,855 --> 01:11:27,928
And I remember us thinking quite a bit, we
had some experiments for publish to web.

1201
01:11:28,558 --> 01:11:32,478
We had some experiments for
what would a web sync look like.

1202
01:11:33,898 --> 01:11:38,128
And this was one of the, I mean,
really one of the business and

1203
01:11:38,128 --> 01:11:40,731
resource, decisions and constraints.

1204
01:11:41,731 --> 01:11:43,361
In some ways forced our hands.

1205
01:11:43,535 --> 01:11:49,835
it definitely made the decision much
easier because the Muse Mac app shares.

1206
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:54,673
95 percent of the code base,
with the iPad, the entire sync

1207
01:11:54,673 --> 01:11:57,040
engine code base, is the same.

1208
01:11:57,496 --> 01:12:00,126
all of the board rendering
and navigation is the same.

1209
01:12:00,206 --> 01:12:04,446
It has some differences in
window management and tabs and

1210
01:12:04,706 --> 01:12:05,876
toolbars and that sort of thing.

1211
01:12:05,896 --> 01:12:11,686
But broadly speaking, the code
base is able to be shared, which,

1212
01:12:11,686 --> 01:12:16,156
of course, dramatically lowers the
maintenance cost for our small team.

1213
01:12:16,623 --> 01:12:21,706
We thought about web for all the reasons
you've mentioned, but of course, that

1214
01:12:21,706 --> 01:12:26,686
would mean an entirely new code base or an
entirely new way to share the code base.

1215
01:12:26,686 --> 01:12:30,616
You can kind of cross compile swift
sometimes in certain circumstances,

1216
01:12:31,323 --> 01:12:36,833
but it was a much, much heavier lift
to have a full web sync platform.

1217
01:12:37,133 --> 01:12:40,800
We experimented with
publish to web, which has.

1218
01:12:41,133 --> 01:12:45,163
come on and off of the back burner a
handful of times over the years, and

1219
01:12:45,163 --> 01:12:48,413
it's something I would still love to
do so that way it would, it's easier

1220
01:12:48,413 --> 01:12:53,823
to share out content at the very least,
even if it's not a full Muse local-first

1221
01:12:53,843 --> 01:12:57,596
client on the web, there's at least
a way to take your local content

1222
01:12:57,626 --> 01:12:59,716
and publish it out for other people.

1223
01:12:59,726 --> 01:13:00,976
I think there's still value in that.

1224
01:13:01,508 --> 01:13:02,228
let me put it this way.

1225
01:13:02,258 --> 01:13:07,188
I think for us to be able to have
gone to a full web local-first

1226
01:13:07,208 --> 01:13:12,175
client, we would have had to have
taken dramatically more, investment

1227
01:13:12,175 --> 01:13:17,991
money, which would have dramatically
changed the entire shape of the app.

1228
01:13:18,486 --> 01:13:22,660
And audience for the app and purpose
for the app, in a way that might even

1229
01:13:22,660 --> 01:13:26,216
be, antithetical to, to Muse as a whole,

1230
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:26,930
right.

1231
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:33,690
Since I think the overlap of the audience
that Muse has as users and customers,

1232
01:13:34,060 --> 01:13:39,820
and the folks who use Apple products,
I think that's not a coincidence.

1233
01:13:40,136 --> 01:13:40,946
I think.

1234
01:13:41,108 --> 01:13:45,738
there's a lot of similarities and
the values, and sort of the pursuits

1235
01:13:45,778 --> 01:13:48,048
as the bicycle for the mind.

1236
01:13:48,058 --> 01:13:51,738
Like you've really like started pulling
on the thread a lot since like this

1237
01:13:51,758 --> 01:13:57,563
entire product is sort of a foundation
for the mind to be more powerful.

1238
01:13:58,228 --> 01:14:01,248
Yeah, I think if we had started today
instead of started, you know, five

1239
01:14:01,248 --> 01:14:04,468
years ago, six years ago, I think we
would probably make different decisions

1240
01:14:04,468 --> 01:14:07,088
just because we're in a different
world now than we were five years ago.

1241
01:14:07,658 --> 01:14:11,838
one thing that's very exciting is the
daylight computer, which was, android

1242
01:14:11,838 --> 01:14:20,698
based tablet, but share so many of the
Muse principles of, you know, calm, quiet.

1243
01:14:21,188 --> 01:14:23,228
Space, safe computing.

1244
01:14:23,238 --> 01:14:24,608
It's not advertising based.

1245
01:14:24,608 --> 01:14:29,278
It's not, you know, in your face, pop up
notifications and red badges and that sort

1246
01:14:29,278 --> 01:14:35,312
of thing, but it's very much designed for
kind of, purposeful, quiet contemplation.

1247
01:14:36,102 --> 01:14:39,172
So that device fits the Muse.

1248
01:14:39,885 --> 01:14:43,635
Principles and values perfectly,
but is, of course, android.

1249
01:14:44,045 --> 01:14:48,695
And so if we started today, I think we
have a very different discussion of, okay,

1250
01:14:48,695 --> 01:14:50,895
should we start on that device on android?

1251
01:14:51,265 --> 01:14:52,505
Should we start on ipad?

1252
01:14:52,995 --> 01:14:53,955
should we?

1253
01:14:54,415 --> 01:14:56,755
Use some sort of technology
that could cross compile.

1254
01:14:56,765 --> 01:14:57,965
So we can share code.

1255
01:14:58,015 --> 01:15:00,855
Like, I, I think it would be a very,
very different discussion than it was

1256
01:15:01,345 --> 01:15:03,875
with the options that we had 5 years ago.

1257
01:15:04,247 --> 01:15:08,967
the downstream implications of
choosing 1 platform or another are

1258
01:15:08,967 --> 01:15:11,987
just on such an enormous scale.

1259
01:15:12,617 --> 01:15:15,640
I've heard from a friend
who's been briefly working

1260
01:15:15,670 --> 01:15:18,260
at Humane where like Humane.

1261
01:15:18,644 --> 01:15:22,964
are all like ex Apple people, like
really brilliant ex Apple people.

1262
01:15:23,394 --> 01:15:27,687
And, well, it turns out the
software platform they've built is

1263
01:15:27,687 --> 01:15:30,387
on top of Android of all things.

1264
01:15:30,877 --> 01:15:33,697
So, and that has many, many consequences.

1265
01:15:34,472 --> 01:15:39,599
But, coming back to the, to the web, just
because that is, typically been my, my

1266
01:15:39,613 --> 01:15:45,525
home where I started computering and where
I'm still, spending most of my time on.

1267
01:15:45,942 --> 01:15:49,112
I'm wondering, how did, even
though you didn't get yet to

1268
01:15:49,122 --> 01:15:51,077
fully build it and ship it.

1269
01:15:51,197 --> 01:15:55,707
Given that the sync architecture,
as I understand it of Muse, it

1270
01:15:55,707 --> 01:15:58,267
started, as a local only app.

1271
01:15:58,297 --> 01:16:02,457
So all data was created
and lived on one device.

1272
01:16:02,777 --> 01:16:08,730
And with Muse 2, you've introduced a sync
server and that data could then, didn't

1273
01:16:08,740 --> 01:16:14,370
originate in the server still originates
on one device, but now through a server.

1274
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:19,450
Is able to flow from 1 device to
another, but the server really has

1275
01:16:19,460 --> 01:16:25,007
no further role than to facilitate,
this transition and, maybe also

1276
01:16:25,017 --> 01:16:28,027
facilitates a backup in case a device.

1277
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:31,572
gets lost or, something
else happens to it.

1278
01:16:32,202 --> 01:16:35,912
so in regards to the, to the
web, how did you think about

1279
01:16:35,982 --> 01:16:38,482
implementing that published web?

1280
01:16:38,872 --> 01:16:45,039
Since, one way I could imagine, where
you don't really, preserve user privacy

1281
01:16:45,039 --> 01:16:50,079
as much is that the server facilitates
this, that the server kind of like looks

1282
01:16:50,099 --> 01:16:54,959
at the sync information and compiles
a kind of like a snapshot out of that.

1283
01:16:55,454 --> 01:16:58,884
But I don't think you have that option
because everything is encrypted.

1284
01:16:59,314 --> 01:17:04,190
So is the logical implication of that,
that the snapshot that you want to

1285
01:17:04,190 --> 01:17:06,720
publish is actually created on the client?

1286
01:17:07,180 --> 01:17:07,700
Yes.

1287
01:17:07,710 --> 01:17:09,030
So there's a couple of different things.

1288
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:13,034
So the Muse server right now
is not encrypted at rest.

1289
01:17:13,220 --> 01:17:14,750
So it's not end to end encrypted.

1290
01:17:15,070 --> 01:17:17,420
Although it, the sync
protocol is designed for that.

1291
01:17:17,440 --> 01:17:21,390
We, we kind of put that option in there
for the future, but it was too heavy

1292
01:17:21,390 --> 01:17:23,340
of a lift at the time to fully do.

1293
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:28,960
So theoretically, there would be
the ability to add web as a sync

1294
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:30,650
option and connect into that.

1295
01:17:31,103 --> 01:17:34,463
however, it's still really important to
keep that end to end encryption as the

1296
01:17:34,463 --> 01:17:36,723
correct architecture and allow for it.

1297
01:17:36,957 --> 01:17:40,563
it's something we planned, to build
the entire time we had the team.

1298
01:17:40,563 --> 01:17:43,283
And it's something that's still on my mind
that I would love to be able to implement.

1299
01:17:43,690 --> 01:17:46,870
So that limits what we
thought about for the web.

1300
01:17:47,590 --> 01:17:53,357
One was that, we could share the link
and within the link that you share, Is.

1301
01:17:53,687 --> 01:17:59,737
The information for the key to
decrypt on the web, and then in your

1302
01:17:59,737 --> 01:18:03,637
account, you would be able to revoke
that key whenever you need it to.

1303
01:18:03,747 --> 01:18:04,857
So then you could share it.

1304
01:18:05,487 --> 01:18:07,704
Somebody with the link would be
able to load up, in the browser.

1305
01:18:08,174 --> 01:18:10,824
The browser would connect,
pull down the encrypted data.

1306
01:18:11,254 --> 01:18:14,534
It would have the key locally, be
able to decrypt in the browser and

1307
01:18:14,534 --> 01:18:15,654
show everything that you needed.

1308
01:18:16,074 --> 01:18:20,527
or later on you could, revoke that key
and then, anyone who loaded it up would

1309
01:18:20,537 --> 01:18:23,307
be able to download encrypted content,
but their key would no longer work.

1310
01:18:23,657 --> 01:18:25,537
So that was idea number one.

1311
01:18:25,847 --> 01:18:31,281
That strategy generally
requires the browser to load.

1312
01:18:31,562 --> 01:18:37,219
Your entire library or the entire
shared piece, which for quick

1313
01:18:37,219 --> 01:18:40,619
sharing of, Oh, Hey, let me
send you this thing real quick.

1314
01:18:40,909 --> 01:18:42,769
Let me just create a link real
quick, send it over to you.

1315
01:18:43,139 --> 01:18:45,829
You load it up in your browser
thinking we're going to collaborate

1316
01:18:45,829 --> 01:18:47,359
real quickly on this document I made.

1317
01:18:47,609 --> 01:18:50,784
and then you have to sit there for seven
minutes while it downloads all sorts of.

1318
01:18:51,004 --> 01:18:52,084
Encrypted things.

1319
01:18:52,694 --> 01:18:56,108
So your browser can decrypt it and
actually decide what's useful or not.

1320
01:18:56,108 --> 01:18:56,477
Right?

1321
01:18:56,811 --> 01:19:04,121
there's a whole other big pile of, very
difficult, local-first encryption, key

1322
01:19:04,121 --> 01:19:07,221
sharing problems that are a part of that.

1323
01:19:07,654 --> 01:19:10,844
And especially when you have lots
and lots of data, which many of the.

1324
01:19:11,084 --> 01:19:15,944
You know, Muse customers have lots
and lots of data that just makes that

1325
01:19:15,944 --> 01:19:17,504
problem exponentially more difficult

1326
01:19:17,613 --> 01:19:22,093
it's one thing if you wouldn't have
launched Muse yet and you can basically

1327
01:19:22,123 --> 01:19:26,463
design the system from scratch
with like all you can leverage all

1328
01:19:26,473 --> 01:19:30,107
the degrees of freedom how you can
build it but you don't just need to

1329
01:19:30,117 --> 01:19:36,107
build it all by yourself but now you
also need to migrate a live system.

1330
01:19:36,490 --> 01:19:42,840
from place A to place B and migrating
data, I think is still one of the

1331
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:47,710
hardest things and one of the scariest
things that's even tricky to do it

1332
01:19:47,710 --> 01:19:52,160
with the comfort of a team setting,
but then doing this all by yourself,

1333
01:19:53,123 --> 01:19:54,963
that is no small undertaking.

1334
01:19:55,363 --> 01:19:59,233
Yeah, and I think it's as much about
the, you know, the kind of time in life

1335
01:19:59,233 --> 01:20:03,587
we are with local-first, trying to do
that today is going to be a lot easier

1336
01:20:03,587 --> 01:20:07,297
than it was trying to do it four or
five years ago and doing that five years

1337
01:20:07,297 --> 01:20:09,017
from now is going to be even easier.

1338
01:20:09,347 --> 01:20:14,597
And so, having the tooling and having
the patterns from other software and

1339
01:20:14,597 --> 01:20:19,253
having the systems built from other
software is really going to help.

1340
01:20:19,473 --> 01:20:21,943
Future creators kind of
stand on their shoulders.

1341
01:20:22,423 --> 01:20:25,173
So much of the new sync engine
we had to build from scratch.

1342
01:20:25,753 --> 01:20:29,503
And if we did encryption, we'd have to
build that from scratch, which is of

1343
01:20:29,503 --> 01:20:34,103
course, a huge, a huge lift and then
building multiple platforms from scratch.

1344
01:20:34,113 --> 01:20:38,400
So being able to use, Automerge
now, or some of the other libraries

1345
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,113
now, lets folks start off in a much.

1346
01:20:41,592 --> 01:20:46,228
more comfortable place, or
capable place, than the starting

1347
01:20:46,228 --> 01:20:48,228
point we had five years ago.

1348
01:20:48,258 --> 01:20:49,678
And so that, that makes a difference too.

1349
01:20:50,025 --> 01:20:50,355
Right.

1350
01:20:50,375 --> 01:20:53,755
Which I mean, that's the question
you've been already paying so

1351
01:20:53,755 --> 01:20:56,375
much of the innovators tax here.

1352
01:20:56,615 --> 01:21:00,365
You've been had to innovate
and pioneer so much.

1353
01:21:00,365 --> 01:21:05,565
You had to roll your entire own
sync system, both client side server

1354
01:21:05,565 --> 01:21:08,555
side had to solve other problems.

1355
01:21:09,260 --> 01:21:14,280
Sometimes just without any reference
points where aside from using an off the

1356
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:18,030
shelf technology, you couldn't even talk
to someone like, Hey, how, Hey, team

1357
01:21:18,030 --> 01:21:20,030
X, how did you, how did you solve that?

1358
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:25,010
Looking back, maybe you would
have been faster not building

1359
01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:26,420
this in a local-first way.

1360
01:21:26,750 --> 01:21:30,970
Do you sometimes think about was
this the right decision to, to

1361
01:21:30,970 --> 01:21:33,390
build back then already local-first?

1362
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:34,090
Yeah.

1363
01:21:34,090 --> 01:21:39,680
It's something I think about a lot
because we, We paid a huge cost in terms

1364
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:45,760
of developer time to build our sync
back end to build a sync on the iPad.

1365
01:21:46,157 --> 01:21:52,107
we're essentially building the network
protocol and an entire database layer,

1366
01:21:52,610 --> 01:21:54,140
just to get off the ground, right?

1367
01:21:54,150 --> 01:21:56,270
Just to start building the
product features on top of that.

1368
01:21:56,593 --> 01:21:57,843
So it's a huge cost.

1369
01:21:58,213 --> 01:21:59,183
There's probably.

1370
01:21:59,583 --> 01:22:01,163
A different path we could have taken.

1371
01:22:01,423 --> 01:22:06,020
if we had not gotten local-first, the way
that I think about almost everything is,

1372
01:22:06,127 --> 01:22:07,597
it would not have solved our problems.

1373
01:22:07,597 --> 01:22:09,197
It just would have changed our problems.

1374
01:22:09,777 --> 01:22:11,417
We, so we would just
have different problems.

1375
01:22:11,993 --> 01:22:16,553
I think it would have probably given us
some time back, but at the expense of.

1376
01:22:16,928 --> 01:22:19,868
a different sync issues
because sync is hard.

1377
01:22:20,508 --> 01:22:24,315
Sync is hard for local-first,
sync is hard for not local-first.

1378
01:22:24,735 --> 01:22:30,992
and I think  for what Muse
is, offline capabilities and

1379
01:22:30,992 --> 01:22:33,542
a really fast local feeling.

1380
01:22:33,877 --> 01:22:39,067
Experience, were paramount, no matter
how that data got synchronized, whether

1381
01:22:39,067 --> 01:22:45,417
it was kind of a traditional sass app,
we would still want, a very reliable

1382
01:22:45,477 --> 01:22:48,367
and thorough cash on the local device.

1383
01:22:48,930 --> 01:22:52,050
so it would have just changed the
problems, but I, I don't know, I,

1384
01:22:52,100 --> 01:22:55,673
I, I think about this every couple
of months, but I always kind of land

1385
01:22:55,683 --> 01:22:57,463
on, I think we made the right call.

1386
01:22:58,288 --> 01:22:59,518
This was the right decision.

1387
01:23:00,098 --> 01:23:01,398
It was a difficult decision.

1388
01:23:01,855 --> 01:23:04,975
In the end, it didn't work out for the
company, you know, essentially in many

1389
01:23:04,975 --> 01:23:11,278
ways, which is unfortunate, but I'm, I'm
not sure that that was the, crux of it.

1390
01:23:11,578 --> 01:23:14,088
I don't think that was the reason.

1391
01:23:14,743 --> 01:23:15,873
That it couldn't work out

1392
01:23:16,577 --> 01:23:22,707
well, I'm very, very thankful and
happy that the Muse team early

1393
01:23:22,707 --> 01:23:24,797
on made all of those decisions.

1394
01:23:24,913 --> 01:23:31,747
it brought me on as someone who is just,
I came for the values and for the mission.

1395
01:23:32,167 --> 01:23:36,017
And for me, it would have, I use
like Miro and the past, et cetera,

1396
01:23:36,367 --> 01:23:40,893
like what really captured my
attention was sort of like the, yeah,

1397
01:23:40,893 --> 01:23:42,583
the thinking different about it.

1398
01:23:43,123 --> 01:23:45,433
And, I think you've stayed true to this.

1399
01:23:45,483 --> 01:23:50,213
And even though you had to pay so
much of that innovators tax and

1400
01:23:50,243 --> 01:23:53,283
surely, if you would have started
out today, like something like

1401
01:23:53,283 --> 01:23:55,563
Automerge is a, in a fantastic spot.

1402
01:23:55,850 --> 01:24:00,650
so you, the giant shoulders are
already in a pretty comfortable

1403
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:02,807
spot to build on top off.

1404
01:24:03,227 --> 01:24:07,207
And yet there's other unsolved problems
today, particularly for the web.

1405
01:24:07,583 --> 01:24:10,033
so I think it's never the perfect time.

1406
01:24:10,303 --> 01:24:12,233
I think it's a matter
of like, is it a fit?

1407
01:24:12,528 --> 01:24:18,165
For who someone as a builder is,
do they feel comfortable, paying

1408
01:24:18,165 --> 01:24:21,625
a bit of that innovators tax and
then also reaping the benefits?

1409
01:24:22,025 --> 01:24:25,535
and I think ultimately it's a, it's a
journey that you're on and you should

1410
01:24:25,535 --> 01:24:31,677
figure out what is the sort of, the
analogy of the problem founder fit is

1411
01:24:31,687 --> 01:24:34,757
sort of like the journey builder fit.

1412
01:24:35,227 --> 01:24:40,090
And, that's something I think a lot
about, and I'm paying that, tax a big

1413
01:24:40,110 --> 01:24:44,283
time right now while trying to build
the actual product, the music app, I

1414
01:24:44,283 --> 01:24:48,433
also roll my entire data layer, which
includes the database, which includes

1415
01:24:48,433 --> 01:24:53,173
the sync system, includes networking,
cross platform and for the web.

1416
01:24:53,173 --> 01:24:54,733
So everything on hard mode.

1417
01:24:55,333 --> 01:24:58,283
But for me, the most important thing
is like enjoying it, enjoying the

1418
01:24:58,293 --> 01:25:02,353
journey and doing something that,
that feels like has a purpose.

1419
01:25:02,837 --> 01:25:04,607
so I'm, I'm very happy about that.

1420
01:25:04,993 --> 01:25:05,853
Yeah, exactly.

1421
01:25:05,853 --> 01:25:06,333
Exactly.

1422
01:25:06,333 --> 01:25:08,973
And I think that's really what
keeps me back coming to the,

1423
01:25:09,303 --> 01:25:10,473
yes, we made the right decision.

1424
01:25:10,945 --> 01:25:15,665
Because building that local-first sync,
was the right option at the time for

1425
01:25:15,665 --> 01:25:18,915
the technology options that were in
front of us that were on the table.

1426
01:25:19,395 --> 01:25:24,455
it really fit our values for the
kind of app we wanted, but also the

1427
01:25:24,455 --> 01:25:28,465
kind of data safety and privacy that
we want to be able to offer people.

1428
01:25:28,806 --> 01:25:31,252
I mean, like I said, even in that
worst case where I was not able

1429
01:25:31,252 --> 01:25:36,055
to carry Muse forward, the Muse
apps would have continued to be.

1430
01:25:36,385 --> 01:25:41,815
Functional and useful long into the future
because it was built on local-first.

1431
01:25:42,308 --> 01:25:46,575
And so that's the most important thing for
me to carry forward as a solo developer

1432
01:25:46,595 --> 01:25:53,152
is to keep those values, keep that
local-first value of this is your data.

1433
01:25:53,212 --> 01:25:56,832
It's on your device and you can
use it for as long as that device

1434
01:25:56,842 --> 01:25:58,982
still has a battery inside of it.

1435
01:25:59,435 --> 01:26:03,145
And, I think the benefits you get
from local-first, you do pay the huge

1436
01:26:03,145 --> 01:26:07,825
tax, but you get such a wonderful
reward for the capabilities that

1437
01:26:07,825 --> 01:26:10,528
local-first software, enables for you.

1438
01:26:10,679 --> 01:26:12,685
I think it's worth the trade off then.

1439
01:26:12,695 --> 01:26:16,202
I think it's worth the
trade off now and it's.

1440
01:26:16,570 --> 01:26:20,070
How I want to build software in
the future, you know, it's just

1441
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:21,400
a wonderful world to live in.

1442
01:26:21,903 --> 01:26:23,003
I totally agree.

1443
01:26:23,003 --> 01:26:27,253
And the good news there is like
more and more of the hard problems,

1444
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:32,310
have already been solved and are
continuously being addressed and solved.

1445
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,010
So the entry ticket is
cheaper and cheaper.

1446
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:40,170
And we are getting closer and closer to
that dream where all of like the caveats

1447
01:26:40,190 --> 01:26:42,290
are getting chopped off one by one.

1448
01:26:42,695 --> 01:26:45,945
Year after year, month after month,
this is also one of the big things

1449
01:26:45,945 --> 01:26:51,875
that has drawn me into the local-first
space that has just attracted for me.

1450
01:26:52,008 --> 01:26:55,495
already had the smartest,
and brightest minds.

1451
01:26:55,555 --> 01:27:01,533
And this is what really, gets me so
excited that there is just such a wealth

1452
01:27:01,553 --> 01:27:06,733
of problems that are worth solving that
the 2nd order effects of all of those

1453
01:27:06,753 --> 01:27:12,920
being solved, materially change software
and technology for humans in a way.

1454
01:27:13,310 --> 01:27:16,660
That I think almost no
other technology solves.

1455
01:27:17,170 --> 01:27:22,640
So, and yeah, thank you again for
being the inspiration that brought

1456
01:27:22,670 --> 01:27:25,123
me in and, brings in other people.

1457
01:27:25,583 --> 01:27:30,020
So, maybe ending on a note, what
are, what are you most looking

1458
01:27:30,020 --> 01:27:32,150
forward to for, for the year ahead?

1459
01:27:32,677 --> 01:27:33,807
well, I'm an engineer at heart.

1460
01:27:33,827 --> 01:27:36,247
So a lot of things that get me excited
are things that I want to build.

1461
01:27:36,610 --> 01:27:38,793
And, end to end encryption is exciting.

1462
01:27:39,123 --> 01:27:40,153
It's super difficult.

1463
01:27:40,393 --> 01:27:42,810
And it's one of those things that,
whenever you build, if you're

1464
01:27:42,810 --> 01:27:46,190
building encryption yourself, you're
doing it wrong, generally speaking.

1465
01:27:46,707 --> 01:27:50,637
so I think I probably won't be doing
end to end encryption anytime soon.

1466
01:27:50,667 --> 01:27:51,717
But instead, yeah.

1467
01:27:52,165 --> 01:27:55,065
I still want to solve
the problem of privacy.

1468
01:27:55,255 --> 01:28:00,318
I've had lots, in terms of people
being scared or uncomfortable or.

1469
01:28:00,718 --> 01:28:03,252
Unable to use a third party sync server.

1470
01:28:03,612 --> 01:28:07,818
I've had, lawyers reach out,
psychologists reach out, doctors

1471
01:28:07,818 --> 01:28:09,618
reach out and say, Hey, I love Muse.

1472
01:28:09,628 --> 01:28:11,198
It's super helpful for my work.

1473
01:28:11,498 --> 01:28:15,758
it is physically impossible for
me to put patient data in a thing

1474
01:28:15,798 --> 01:28:17,258
that lands on a third party server.

1475
01:28:17,852 --> 01:28:21,352
And in some cases it remains impossible.

1476
01:28:22,122 --> 01:28:25,855
Even if there's end to end encryption,
just solving that technical problem does

1477
01:28:25,855 --> 01:28:29,915
not necessarily solve their business
and privacy problem for their patients.

1478
01:28:30,465 --> 01:28:34,645
So instead, something I'm really
excited for is, peer to peer sync.

1479
01:28:35,102 --> 01:28:39,132
And so instead of going through a
Muse server at all, you can have

1480
01:28:39,132 --> 01:28:45,038
your iPad and your Mac synchronize
their full data together entirely

1481
01:28:45,058 --> 01:28:47,728
over local encrypted connections.

1482
01:28:48,312 --> 01:28:49,982
And so it's not talking to a server.

1483
01:28:50,192 --> 01:28:51,562
It's not talking to my server.

1484
01:28:51,572 --> 01:28:53,112
It's not talking to Amazon server.

1485
01:28:53,122 --> 01:28:54,492
It's not talking to anybody's server.

1486
01:28:54,962 --> 01:29:01,282
It is your devices inside of your home
on your Wi Fi talking encrypted over your

1487
01:29:01,282 --> 01:29:03,242
local Wi Fi to stay in sync together.

1488
01:29:03,825 --> 01:29:08,595
I think that to me really
embodies local-first and opens

1489
01:29:08,595 --> 01:29:10,965
up, even more opportunities.

1490
01:29:11,605 --> 01:29:16,922
For workflows and customers, that have
privacy considerations, I think that

1491
01:29:16,922 --> 01:29:22,082
solves the problem even more than kind of
a traditional SAS end to end encryption

1492
01:29:22,302 --> 01:29:28,088
would in many ways, because it fully
decouples Muse the app from Muse the

1493
01:29:28,088 --> 01:29:32,635
sync server, which is, I think the gold
standard for local for software is to

1494
01:29:32,635 --> 01:29:36,065
say, Hey, this is your, your device,
your stuff, your software, your data.

1495
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:39,240
It syncs between your devices
like you don't need anybody else.

1496
01:29:39,250 --> 01:29:41,130
You just need to download
the software and away you go.

1497
01:29:41,530 --> 01:29:45,280
and so I, I love that vision
for the future for local-first

1498
01:29:45,300 --> 01:29:46,880
generally, but especially from you.

1499
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,610
So I'm really hoping I can
dig into that this year.

1500
01:29:50,620 --> 01:29:52,310
I would love to, to be building on that.

1501
01:29:53,065 --> 01:29:58,995
I'm super, super excited to hear
you say that since it always just

1502
01:29:58,995 --> 01:30:06,285
like drives me crazy to have devices
have like my iPhone and one hand

1503
01:30:06,305 --> 01:30:08,562
and have maybe an iPad on my table.

1504
01:30:08,832 --> 01:30:12,722
Maybe there's some hiccup in the
internet connection right now.

1505
01:30:13,052 --> 01:30:16,022
And those two things, they're
not even separated by a meter.

1506
01:30:16,293 --> 01:30:21,206
they're just like completely
ignorant of each other existence.

1507
01:30:21,726 --> 01:30:28,341
And, with an app like Muse solving
that and allowing those to Talk

1508
01:30:28,341 --> 01:30:31,791
to each other who are clearly
in proximity to each other.

1509
01:30:32,311 --> 01:30:37,141
That should be both an inspiration
and also a provocation to

1510
01:30:37,191 --> 01:30:38,631
other apps to do better.

1511
01:30:39,491 --> 01:30:44,451
And I'm really, really excited about
not just for the sake of Muse users

1512
01:30:44,451 --> 01:30:47,221
who have a better time because of that.

1513
01:30:47,241 --> 01:30:50,641
And I think that's one of the
coolest things in terms of

1514
01:30:50,641 --> 01:30:52,071
like a new product version.

1515
01:30:52,441 --> 01:30:57,311
That all the features that you
know, in love before are still

1516
01:30:57,311 --> 01:31:01,871
working the same way, but now an
inherent limitation is just gone.

1517
01:31:01,881 --> 01:31:02,291
And it's like.

1518
01:31:02,736 --> 01:31:07,789
Obviously, it should have been like
that all along and, ideally inspiring

1519
01:31:07,799 --> 01:31:12,999
and provoking more apps, more builders
into falling on the same path.

1520
01:31:13,482 --> 01:31:14,582
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1521
01:31:14,582 --> 01:31:19,596
I think it's the, I'm a big believer
in local-first software and, there's

1522
01:31:19,596 --> 01:31:25,342
really no reason that, like you said, my
laptop sitting here should send its data

1523
01:31:25,392 --> 01:31:32,137
encrypted or otherwise to the Amazon U.
E. US East data center, just to have it

1524
01:31:32,137 --> 01:31:34,127
sent back to my phone, three feet away.

1525
01:31:34,817 --> 01:31:35,297
I like it.

1526
01:31:35,337 --> 01:31:36,997
We, we don't need to be doing that.

1527
01:31:37,204 --> 01:31:37,974
it's kind of silly.

1528
01:31:38,317 --> 01:31:42,264
And so keeping that data private
and keeping it local, I think you

1529
01:31:42,264 --> 01:31:43,504
end up getting better performance.

1530
01:31:43,504 --> 01:31:44,504
You get better privacy.

1531
01:31:44,504 --> 01:31:45,244
You get better.

1532
01:31:45,721 --> 01:31:48,031
you get better everything in so many ways.

1533
01:31:49,261 --> 01:31:50,031
I'm excited for it.

1534
01:31:51,126 --> 01:31:56,589
Hey, Adam, thank you so much for
sharing so much about your journey,

1535
01:31:57,116 --> 01:32:02,802
for five years now with Muse, I've
learned a lot more about the journey,

1536
01:32:03,109 --> 01:32:07,885
that has led to Muse and has led
through the various chapters of Muse.

1537
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:12,637
I've taken away a lot here for, for
my personal journey, see a lot of

1538
01:32:12,637 --> 01:32:17,671
similarities, have a lot of empathy
for your journey and hopefully some

1539
01:32:17,671 --> 01:32:21,217
of the audience who are thinking
about, starting a similar journey.

1540
01:32:21,217 --> 01:32:23,947
Maybe there are on a, on
a similar journey already.

1541
01:32:24,301 --> 01:32:25,191
I've learned a lot.

1542
01:32:25,381 --> 01:32:30,151
I'm, I'm sure folks who are listening
have learned a lot and yeah, just

1543
01:32:30,171 --> 01:32:31,491
thank you for sharing all of that.

1544
01:32:32,176 --> 01:32:32,456
Yeah.

1545
01:32:32,456 --> 01:32:33,526
Thank you so much for having me.

1546
01:32:33,789 --> 01:32:37,449
always happy to chat and always,
especially to another, uh, local-first

1547
01:32:37,469 --> 01:32:39,359
developer, I empathize with you.

1548
01:32:39,359 --> 01:32:43,599
It's always wonderful to chat with
someone who a understand software, but B

1549
01:32:43,709 --> 01:32:45,859
understands, no, I don't work for Apple.

1550
01:32:45,889 --> 01:32:48,949
I know I'm, I have an app on
the App Store, but no, I just

1551
01:32:49,959 --> 01:32:52,019
understands the world that I live in.

1552
01:32:52,019 --> 01:32:53,339
So it's been wonderful.

1553
01:32:53,359 --> 01:32:54,119
Thanks for having me.

1554
01:32:55,052 --> 01:32:57,472
Thank you for listening to
the localfirst.fm podcast.

1555
01:32:57,702 --> 01:33:00,152
If you've enjoyed this episode and
haven't done so already, please

1556
01:33:00,422 --> 01:33:02,132
Please subscribe and leave a review.

1557
01:33:02,572 --> 01:33:05,132
Please also share this episode
with your friends and colleagues.

1558
01:33:05,502 --> 01:33:08,492
Spreading the word about the
podcast is a great way to support

1559
01:33:08,492 --> 01:33:10,372
it and to help me keep it going.

1560
01:33:10,882 --> 01:33:15,382
A special thanks again to Convex and
ElectricSQL  for supporting this podcast.

1561
01:33:15,782 --> 01:33:16,542
See you next time.