Matt Abrahams: Drive and clarity can really help you land your communication.
I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with Susie Wolff.
Susie is a highly respected former professional race car driver.
Susie now serves as the managing director of F1 Academy, an all female
racing series dedicated to developing the next generation of female talent.
Her new book is appropriately called Driven.
Unlike most of our episodes where I interview our guest
solo, today I am really excited to be joined by Tiggy Valen.
Tiggy is an F1 enthusiast who hosts the Paddock Project, which brings a
fresh female perspective to Formula 1.
Tiggy, and I got to know each other at Stanford GSB, where Tiggy
was one of my former students.
Well, welcome Tiggy.
Thank you for helping me today.
Tiggy Valen: I'm so excited to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you, and welcome, Susie.
We are both super excited for our conversation.
Susie Wolff: I'm equally excited.
Thank you for having me.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Susie Wolff: Let's go for it.
Matt Abrahams: To begin, I'd love to know, and I'm sure our listeners would, where
did your interest in motorsport come from?
Susie Wolff: Well, I think you could say it was in my blood because my
mom met my dad when she went to buy her first motorbike from his shop.
I had a little motorbike from the age of 2.
I got a go-kart for my eighth birthday and I was always that very competitive
little girl that hated losing.
I had a real love of speeds and looking back, I was really lucky
that I had an older brother who was only 18 months older than me.
And my parents never really differentiated between son and
daughter, so I never once felt I was doing anything unusual for a girl.
And of course in my sport, we all wear a helmet when we're racing, so the gender
or the driver isn't always visible.
So it set me off on a path.
And at the age of 8, 9, 10, you're not thinking about the future,
you're not thinking about career.
You're simply doing what you love in the moment and how grateful
I am that I found that thing I love doing at such a young age.
Tiggy Valen: It's incredible.
Yeah, it sounds like it's been your entire life.
I do wanna fast forward several years though, because I think when
you joined Mercedes for your DTM test, and I'm sure in many rooms that
you've walked into since, you have been the only woman amongst many men.
And so I guess I'm curious what advice you have for someone who may
be underrepresented for some reason, age, gender, race, whatever it may
be, trying to assert their voice and their expertise in a room where their
contributions are perhaps doubted or not respected as much as others.
Susie Wolff: I think it was over time that I realized, because I was very often the
only woman in a situation, whether that be the garage or in a meeting room or in the
simulator, and I realized quite early on that performance is what counts in sports.
And what I love about being in sport is it's very objective.
It's black and white.
You're either fast or slow.
There's no subjectivity to it.
So, I always knew if I delivered performance I had to get respect.
And interestingly, when you walk into a room, you can quite often
feel, it's not blatant skepticism, but you have an undercurrent of
whether I'm taken seriously in this setting or, okay, I've got my work
to do to win these people over.
And I quite often was never the loudest voice in the room.
Never the one that spoke the most often.
But I made sure when I did speak that I really had something to say.
And I knew I also had to believe in myself in many situations because if you want
others to believe in you, you need to give off those vibes that you at least have
confidence in your own abilities before you can expect others to believe in you.
Matt Abrahams: So being aware of the room as you walk into it and then
being judicious in what you say.
The confidence in ourselves is really critical, and a lot of people
might not have that confidence.
I'm curious, were there some things you did to help remind you that
you belong in those rooms and your voice really does matter?
How did you build some of that confidence?
Because I think it's critical in all communication.
Susie Wolff: I'm really lucky that I'm the character that if someone
tells me I can't, it makes me even more determined to show them I can.
And I'm really thankful for that character trait because there have
been so many times throughout my career that there were so many doubters,
but that lights a fire inside of me and it makes me even more determined.
But in a way, there's no bitterness or regret if I don't manage, it's
more the biggest battle is with me.
I want to achieve, I want to be the best racing driver I can be.
I want to be the best leader I can be, so I hold myself to high standards.
Matt Abrahams: It's really that self-motivation and having a clear purpose
and goal that really, I'm hearing, is what drives some of that confidence in you.
You successfully transitioned from the driver's seat to become a team principal
and eventually CEO of Venturi Racing.
You said that when you were a driver, you focused entirely on
yourself, but as a leader you had to focus on the group, the collective.
Many folks listening in are in positions of transitioning from
individual contributors to being team leads, managers, and what
advice and guidance do you have for helping people make that transition?
What were some of the skills you had to develop as you moved from focusing on
your own contribution to the broader team?
Susie Wolff: It's a really good question, and it was definitely a transition.
When you're a sports person, you're so selfish.
It's all about you because it all lands on your shoulders.
In a sport like racing, Formula 1, it really is a collective effort
because no matter how good you are as a driver, if your car isn't quick
enough, you're not going to win a race.
So I think being in that environment, you learn quite early on, okay,
I need the people around me.
So you need to bring people on the journey with you.
They need to live through the successes, but also the failures, so that camaraderie
is instilled in you from a very young age because you wanna get to the best team,
you wanna have the best people around you, and ultimately, I learned quite early
on surround yourself with great people.
When I moved and transitioned into leading a Formula team, I looked at my whole
network that I'd met over the many years and immediately looked, okay, who do I
want to surround myself with, who are best in class in each of their areas?
And in our sports, quite often the quickest way to gain performance is
simply to poach someone from another team that's performing because
they bring all their know-how.
Surround yourself with great people and set realistic goals.
You know, you need to be quite honest in your beliefs of what you can achieve.
Because if I'd gone to those people I was trying to hire and say, listen,
we can be world champions in 2 years, they would've laughed in my face.
We didn't have the organization, the know how, the investment in
the background ,to turn it around quickly, but I very much said to them,
listen, I know what I need to do.
Come on this journey with me.
I manage their expectations, but I very much made them come and feel part of the
transformation and part of the journey.
Tiggy Valen: That old adage sounds so true of it takes a village and it's equally
important in the successes, but also the failures, and maybe even more so in the
failures because you do have to have a little bit more persuasion, convincing,
honesty to get the right people on board.
But hopefully it's a self-fulfilling prophecy where you get the people
who believe in the mission and you can work towards success together.
One thing I love about Formula 1, F1 Academy, is that you all operate across
dozens of countries and cultures, which means you're constantly working with
people who have very different styles of communication, cultural expectations.
I'm curious how that experience has been for you.
Susie Wolff: I definitely had to navigate that, but I also realized
it does come down to the individuals, not just certain cultures, but the
individuals within that culture, and you start to learn through your key people,
okay, how do they like to communicate?
Do they need me to ask them how their family is before we get down to business
or can we get straight into business?
And I think you learn how certain characters are and then
you navigate your way through.
But my preferred line of communication is always get to it, be efficient,
and let's not waste any time.
Matt Abrahams: Being cognizant of what works for you, I think is the starting
point for communicating with others.
And then the second thing I heard you say, which is really important, is
be open to input and insight into how others like to be communicated and then
make adjustments if it makes sense.
As managing director of the F1 Academy, you were tasked with
creating a competitive pathway for young female drivers.
A lot of what we talk about on the show is persuasion and influence.
When you were building this movement and generating a call to action, that was a
long-term vision, how do you get people to join you, especially when they're
traditionally focused on the here and now, the immediate short-term results.
How did you manage to get people to buy into your long-term vision?
Susie Wolff: Well, I was really lucky that I was in an industry which realized
that the climate was changing, in a way.
We as F1, have 42% of the global fan base now being female.
So, I only really took this role at F1 Academy because I knew this was our
chance, and I wasn't even sure if we would ever see this chance in my lifetime,
but I think that the sport changed.
There was a massive investment in women's sport at the time, and I think those
elements really made me believe, okay, the timing is right for something to shift.
But when I arrived F1 Academy and had been set up to be something much smaller,
and of course I came in with this huge vision, we're gonna race with F1.
We're gonna centralize all the commercial assets in-house.
I'm gonna get the F1 teams on board.
But I was at the beginning just taking my time to build a very clear strategy.
I'm someone that doesn't try to run before I can walk.
So I said to Stefano, the CEO of Formula 1, I need 6 weeks to really figure out
this plan, and then I'll come to you and I'll show you what I think we need to do.
And I really took my time then to really speak to the best in the business,
the people whose opinions I rated.
What do you think we can do?
What's been done in the past that hasn't worked?
So I got as much intel from as many different people within the sport,
different perspectives from mine, and some were not nice to hear.
Women will never make it to Formula 1, you're wasting your time.
But I had to hear those inputs.
I had to know why they didn't think it was possible.
'Cause that was just as important for me then those who said, it's
absolutely important on the sport.
This is what we need to do.
This is going to get more female talent.
And then it was about building a team.
But the initial months were, I like to say firefighting.
We were trying to come up with solutions to scenarios that had
never come up in the sport before.
You know, in the F1 teams, they've never given their name and liveries to anything
outside of the cars they've built.
And suddenly there was little me asking them, I want you to do it for
a female racing driver in F1 Academy.
But I think when they understood why this could have a positive impact in the sport,
how it could generate return on investment for them, they could see the reasons why.
And then I turned around and said, and I'm not going to oblige you to stay.
If you give me your trust, I'll prove to you that this can work.
And if it doesn't, you can walk away at any moment.
I won't oblige you and you shouldn't look at us and feel like it's a charity case.
And then slowly but surely, we managed to build a platform, which really showed
that it had its place in this sport, that created value, that had a financial
sustainability as a backbone, and I think that's what allowed me over then
2 or 3 seasons to build that credibility and to show people that, well, F1
Academy can be positively impactful.
Matt Abrahams: You started, it sounds like, by really understanding
the opportunity, having done some research into what made sense.
It didn't hurt that there were some things going on in the broader
change in how people approach sport, especially around women.
And then you set up a strategy, you set time to really think
about it strategically.
And what really resonated with me is you took time to talk to people, not just
people who had similar ideas and opinions, but people who had very disparate opinions
and that helped you form the plan.
And through that you were able to put together a very persuasive message.
And I love also that you had metrics.
You said, here's what success is gonna look like and hold me to the success.
And congratulations, by the way, on the success that you've had with that.
There are a lot of lessons in there for anybody who's
trying to implement something.
Have a vision, make sure it's grounded in reality, come up with a plan
that's informed by not just people who support what you're saying, and
derive metrics and commit to those metrics, and from there, move forward.
In leadership, in any situation, but especially in elite sport, you
often are put in a situation where you have to deliver hard truths.
Maybe a driver isn't performing well, a sponsor isn't properly aligned.
How do you prepare yourself for those conversations and what advice do you have
for delivering constructive feedback?
My sense is something, part of it is being very direct, but I'm
curious the other pieces for you.
Susie Wolff: Well, my husband calls it tough.
Love that feedback on where you need to improve, what you can do better,
and I won't lie, it hurts a little bit.
I do like and appreciate also the areas and the weaknesses that, that
he pulls up, the criticisms, because as much as it stings in that first
moment, it helps you be better.
And I'm a big believer in getting comfortable in the uncomfortable.
Put yourself in those situations where you are under pressure or you are getting
feedback that isn't what you want to hear.
And don't get too overly emotional about it.
Try and take a step back and say, okay, why have they formed
that opinion that I could do that better or that isn't good enough?
And how can I actually make sure that I do do it better?
Or it can be seen in a different light.
And there are sometimes instances where I say, well, I disagree
because this is why I do it and this is why it's turned out this way.
But I do think in those moments you have to just take the initial sting
that is criticism, but then see it for the positive because it does
help you improve in the long term.
But I also, when I'm delivering criticism to my team or sometimes to
the drivers, I do always try and put myself in the other person's shoes
so I could see their perspective.
And that's one of the things I love about my role.
I've been on the journey that these young women have been on.
I know how tough it is and I know how much they sacrifice to try and make it
as a driver and not all of them will.
And there's certain times where it does break my heart when I have to
tell a driver, well you're out 'cause the performance wasn't there, because
I've had someone tell that to me.
And I know how tough it can be, but I think the one thing I've
definitely learned is don't shy away from confrontation.
Don't shy away from the difficult discussions.
Don't try and get other people to do them for you because you need
to have the difficult discussions.
And as long as you can do it in a human way, which has a bit of empathy built
in, you need to deliver the hard truth.
And quite often, those hard truths are the moments in your life where you
either have to dig deeper and come back stronger or slightly change your pathway.
You mentioned the word failure.
I had so many more failures in my life than I did successes, so many more.
But it was in those moments of failure where I had to decide,
okay, am I coming back from this or am I taking a different route?
And it's in those moments that I think you really have to stay true to yourself.
Have you got it in you to keep going or are you going to pick another path?
Tiggy Valen: I love that.
I'm hearing two things.
One, to be able to deliver hard feedback, you first have to be
comfortable with receiving it yourself.
You have to get over the initial sting of it and take that and
say, this is a defining moment of whether I become something better
or something different, or I don't.
And then second is that empathy piece.
So when you are delivering hard feedback, you really have to think about who
you're delivering that message to and make sure that you're thinking
through what it's like in their shoes.
I wanna go back to one of the things you said, Susie, because you mentioned
you learned to become comfortable in the, with the uncomfortable.
And first of all, congratulations on your book because in the letter
to your younger self at the end of Driven, you mentioned that, and I would
love to dig into that a little more.
When you speak to whether it's young women today, your drivers or whoever
else, how would you instruct them to embrace that discomfort and also
communicate their value and kind of sit with that and make something out of it?
Susie Wolff: I think that getting comfortable and the uncomfortable is
also closely linked to resilience.
When you're really put on the spot where you're under pressure,
where you're uncomfortable.
That is where you need to find that inner strength within you to say,
okay, I can overcome this, or I can prepare myself in such a way that
I have the tools to overcome this.
And in high pressure environments, which was a lot of my career and even to this
day, I always say to myself, the best I can do is be the best version of myself,
and if that's good enough to succeed I can be really proud, if it's not good
enough, well, I gave it my best shot, and I'm okay with not succeeding, with
failing, but it's putting yourself in the best possible position for success.
So even when it gets uncomfortable, what are you doing to try
and make it then comfortable?
What are you doing to put yourself in a position where you can get
yourself back into a comfort zone?
How are you learning new things?
And those are the moments where I think you grow the most as a person.
And I remember when I took the role in the Formula E team, there was
a couple of moments in the first six weeks where I thought, what
have I caught myself into here?
This is so much, and I don't have the tools to manage all of this.
The same thing with F1 Academy.
I remember one of the first race weekend, my phone was blowing up from
the team principles in F1 for everyone telling me what's wrong, what needs
to be better, why it's not good, and I said, God, there's so much to do.
But then again, that little person in me that loves the challenge, that has
the resilience kicked in and said, okay.
Let's work through this step by step.
We are gonna manage this.
Let's break it down.
What can we do as small steps that will then, you know, look like
bigger steps in the mid to long term?
So I think it really is that preparation of putting yourself in the best position
to succeed in any given moments, no matter how uncomfortable you are, and then
not allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by just how big the challenge is.
Matt Abrahams: Really that approach of gonna give it my best, and
even if it doesn't go the way I want, knowing that I give it my
best is something I can live with.
And then breaking it down into the pieces.
So while it might be very uncomfortable and overwhelming, there is a path
forward, and I appreciate that.
Susie, before we end, as you know, I like to ask three questions.
One I'm gonna make up just for you, and then the other two I've been asking people
as long as we've been doing the show.
Are you up for that?
Susie Wolff: I'm up for it, you're gonna put me on the spot.
Matt Abrahams: So one of the things I really enjoyed about your book
was how honest and open you were.
You demonstrated a lot of vulnerability.
I'm curious to get your thoughts on the role vulnerability plays in leadership.
Is it important for leaders to be vulnerable, to share failures and
negative thoughts that they've had?
Is that an important piece to being an effective leader?
Susie Wolff: For me it is because I think especially in the role that I am
in where I'm having a lot of interactions with the next generation and I'm
trying to inspire them, I'm trying to create a new pathway within what is
the very male dominated environment, I want them to learn from my mistakes.
I want them to realize how tough my journey was so that their journey might
be a little bit less tough than mine was.
And of course, my husband works in the same industry.
And he's someone that when they were dominant in Formula 1 had huge
visibility and he chose to take that moment when he had a very powerful voice
to say, well, I also have struggles, you know, with my own mental health.
And he felt it was important to humanize because quite often people
look from a distance and they think we are having this incredible life.
And don't get me wrong, there's so many things I'm very grateful for in my life.
But in the book, it was important for me to show that it hasn't
all been a bed of roses.
There's been so many tough moments in the journey and I hope a lot of
women will resonate and men with tough moments in their journey and
how you have to pick yourself back up.
But we all have our own struggles and I think my style of leadership is
certainly to be quite open in those moments so that people can resonate.
And I think that honesty shows people that you're also being authentic.
Matt Abrahams: There certainly is an authenticity to that, and thank you for
sharing your perspective and bringing in the issue with your husband as well.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Susie Wolff: Well, I've mentioned his name quite often, but definitely my husband.
I remember at the very beginning when we came together and he
said, let's not play the games.
I'm going to call you when I have time to call you.
I'm gonna text when I have time, and if I don't, it's simply because I
don't have time in that given working day, but I'm not going to play games.
And that clarity and openness at the very beginning, it set the
tone for our whole relationship.
And he's someone that says, okay, we're not going to go to sleep
if we've had a disagreement or we're angry with each other, and
he's very good at communicating.
He's very good at taking the time to sit and be in the moment and to really listen.
Phones away, not that distraction of feeling you're talking to someone
who's got 10 other things going on.
And I do think it's one of the things in our marriage, which is such a
strength at the core, that we are very open and honest with each other.
We just communicate really well, and I definitely learned so much
in how to be a better communicator.
Matt Abrahams: That directness and that focus make a lot of sense for all of
us, and thanks for giving us a little insight into that relationship you have.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Susie Wolff: Well, I think I've mentioned them a lot already.
I think the first one for me is the authenticity.
Be who you are.
Don't try and be something you think you need to be or what you
think others expect you to be.
You are you, and the easiest thing you can be is you.
And for me, it's also the honesty, that honesty in communicating,
but also putting your hand up when you've made a mistake or where you
think you could do something better.
And the last one for me is something that I've really realized moving into the
business side of the sport's is clarity.
So much words get spoken, meetings get done, and you
actually can narrow it all down.
I always say to my team, well, give me clarity.
What do you actually mean?
What do we want to take from this meeting?
What are the steps forward?
Because sometimes there's just so much talking, so many meetings, and we need to
be really focused and just with clarity, communicate with each other, and it
just makes it so much more efficient.
Matt Abrahams: Well, you were certainly clear in the three that you gave us,
authenticity, honesty, and clarity.
Susie, this has been a lovely conversation.
So many valuable insights that we can all take for our personal lives, and it's just
fascinating to, your life is fascinating and thank you for sharing that.
Tiggy, thank you so much for joining and helping.
I know you are passionate about the sport and I appreciate the work
you do to help bring light to it.
And congratulations on the book, Susie.
Driven is a very personal and yet very insightful book on many levels.
Thank you and all the best.
Susie Wolff: Thank you both so much.
Tiggy Valen: Thank you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about empowering women in sport, please listen to
episode 235 with Chiney Ogwumike.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.
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