WEBVTT 00:00:03.090 --> 00:00:08.100 Matt Abrahams: Drive and clarity can really help you land your communication. 00:00:08.490 --> 00:00:11.520 I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:12.629 Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.170 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:18.500 Today I look forward to speaking with Susie Wolff. 00:00:19.020 --> 00:00:22.259 Susie is a highly respected former professional race car driver. 00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:27.180 Susie now serves as the managing director of F1 Academy, an all female 00:00:27.180 --> 00:00:31.419 racing series dedicated to developing the next generation of female talent. 00:00:31.750 --> 00:00:34.360 Her new book is appropriately called Driven. 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:37.120 Unlike most of our episodes where I interview our guest 00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:40.570 solo, today I am really excited to be joined by Tiggy Valen. 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:44.980 Tiggy is an F1 enthusiast who hosts the Paddock Project, which brings a 00:00:44.980 --> 00:00:47.560 fresh female perspective to Formula 1. 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.830 Tiggy, and I got to know each other at Stanford GSB, where Tiggy 00:00:50.830 --> 00:00:52.690 was one of my former students. 00:00:53.140 --> 00:00:54.220 Well, welcome Tiggy. 00:00:54.220 --> 00:00:55.660 Thank you for helping me today. 00:00:55.980 --> 00:00:57.210 Tiggy Valen: I'm so excited to be here. 00:00:57.450 --> 00:00:59.250 Matt Abrahams: Thank you, and welcome, Susie. 00:00:59.250 --> 00:01:01.830 We are both super excited for our conversation. 00:01:02.010 --> 00:01:03.120 Susie Wolff: I'm equally excited. 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:03.990 Thank you for having me. 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:04.710 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:04.710 --> 00:01:05.519 Shall we get started? 00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:06.480 Susie Wolff: Let's go for it. 00:01:06.810 --> 00:01:10.050 Matt Abrahams: To begin, I'd love to know, and I'm sure our listeners would, where 00:01:10.050 --> 00:01:12.300 did your interest in motorsport come from? 00:01:12.690 --> 00:01:14.640 Susie Wolff: Well, I think you could say it was in my blood because my 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:18.090 mom met my dad when she went to buy her first motorbike from his shop. 00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:20.360 I had a little motorbike from the age of 2. 00:01:20.520 --> 00:01:25.140 I got a go-kart for my eighth birthday and I was always that very competitive 00:01:25.140 --> 00:01:26.820 little girl that hated losing. 00:01:26.970 --> 00:01:30.510 I had a real love of speeds and looking back, I was really lucky 00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:33.380 that I had an older brother who was only 18 months older than me. 00:01:33.610 --> 00:01:36.160 And my parents never really differentiated between son and 00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:40.270 daughter, so I never once felt I was doing anything unusual for a girl. 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:45.250 And of course in my sport, we all wear a helmet when we're racing, so the gender 00:01:45.250 --> 00:01:47.620 or the driver isn't always visible. 00:01:47.740 --> 00:01:49.690 So it set me off on a path. 00:01:49.810 --> 00:01:53.440 And at the age of 8, 9, 10, you're not thinking about the future, 00:01:53.440 --> 00:01:54.610 you're not thinking about career. 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.820 You're simply doing what you love in the moment and how grateful 00:01:57.820 --> 00:02:01.030 I am that I found that thing I love doing at such a young age. 00:02:01.515 --> 00:02:02.145 Tiggy Valen: It's incredible. 00:02:02.145 --> 00:02:04.425 Yeah, it sounds like it's been your entire life. 00:02:04.785 --> 00:02:08.295 I do wanna fast forward several years though, because I think when 00:02:08.295 --> 00:02:12.525 you joined Mercedes for your DTM test, and I'm sure in many rooms that 00:02:12.585 --> 00:02:16.575 you've walked into since, you have been the only woman amongst many men. 00:02:16.575 --> 00:02:20.565 And so I guess I'm curious what advice you have for someone who may 00:02:20.565 --> 00:02:25.065 be underrepresented for some reason, age, gender, race, whatever it may 00:02:25.065 --> 00:02:29.595 be, trying to assert their voice and their expertise in a room where their 00:02:29.595 --> 00:02:33.225 contributions are perhaps doubted or not respected as much as others. 00:02:33.630 --> 00:02:37.230 Susie Wolff: I think it was over time that I realized, because I was very often the 00:02:37.230 --> 00:02:41.040 only woman in a situation, whether that be the garage or in a meeting room or in the 00:02:41.040 --> 00:02:46.110 simulator, and I realized quite early on that performance is what counts in sports. 00:02:46.110 --> 00:02:49.530 And what I love about being in sport is it's very objective. 00:02:49.830 --> 00:02:50.640 It's black and white. 00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:51.780 You're either fast or slow. 00:02:52.050 --> 00:02:54.225 There's no subjectivity to it. 00:02:54.245 --> 00:02:58.790 So, I always knew if I delivered performance I had to get respect. 00:02:58.910 --> 00:03:02.270 And interestingly, when you walk into a room, you can quite often 00:03:02.270 --> 00:03:06.110 feel, it's not blatant skepticism, but you have an undercurrent of 00:03:06.110 --> 00:03:09.500 whether I'm taken seriously in this setting or, okay, I've got my work 00:03:09.500 --> 00:03:10.940 to do to win these people over. 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:14.455 And I quite often was never the loudest voice in the room. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:16.820 Never the one that spoke the most often. 00:03:16.820 --> 00:03:20.600 But I made sure when I did speak that I really had something to say. 00:03:20.600 --> 00:03:25.545 And I knew I also had to believe in myself in many situations because if you want 00:03:25.575 --> 00:03:28.965 others to believe in you, you need to give off those vibes that you at least have 00:03:28.965 --> 00:03:33.105 confidence in your own abilities before you can expect others to believe in you. 00:03:33.495 --> 00:03:37.125 Matt Abrahams: So being aware of the room as you walk into it and then 00:03:37.125 --> 00:03:38.925 being judicious in what you say. 00:03:39.255 --> 00:03:42.585 The confidence in ourselves is really critical, and a lot of people 00:03:42.585 --> 00:03:44.055 might not have that confidence. 00:03:44.055 --> 00:03:47.715 I'm curious, were there some things you did to help remind you that 00:03:47.715 --> 00:03:50.925 you belong in those rooms and your voice really does matter? 00:03:51.135 --> 00:03:53.055 How did you build some of that confidence? 00:03:53.055 --> 00:03:55.665 Because I think it's critical in all communication. 00:03:56.010 --> 00:03:58.950 Susie Wolff: I'm really lucky that I'm the character that if someone 00:03:58.950 --> 00:04:03.930 tells me I can't, it makes me even more determined to show them I can. 00:04:04.260 --> 00:04:07.050 And I'm really thankful for that character trait because there have 00:04:07.050 --> 00:04:10.980 been so many times throughout my career that there were so many doubters, 00:04:11.160 --> 00:04:15.600 but that lights a fire inside of me and it makes me even more determined. 00:04:15.870 --> 00:04:19.554 But in a way, there's no bitterness or regret if I don't manage, it's 00:04:19.554 --> 00:04:21.575 more the biggest battle is with me. 00:04:21.815 --> 00:04:24.485 I want to achieve, I want to be the best racing driver I can be. 00:04:24.485 --> 00:04:28.265 I want to be the best leader I can be, so I hold myself to high standards. 00:04:28.865 --> 00:04:32.225 Matt Abrahams: It's really that self-motivation and having a clear purpose 00:04:32.225 --> 00:04:36.095 and goal that really, I'm hearing, is what drives some of that confidence in you. 00:04:36.540 --> 00:04:40.470 You successfully transitioned from the driver's seat to become a team principal 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:42.750 and eventually CEO of Venturi Racing. 00:04:43.080 --> 00:04:45.570 You said that when you were a driver, you focused entirely on 00:04:45.570 --> 00:04:49.410 yourself, but as a leader you had to focus on the group, the collective. 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.980 Many folks listening in are in positions of transitioning from 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:57.615 individual contributors to being team leads, managers, and what 00:04:57.615 --> 00:05:01.935 advice and guidance do you have for helping people make that transition? 00:05:01.935 --> 00:05:06.015 What were some of the skills you had to develop as you moved from focusing on 00:05:06.015 --> 00:05:08.595 your own contribution to the broader team? 00:05:08.985 --> 00:05:11.475 Susie Wolff: It's a really good question, and it was definitely a transition. 00:05:11.475 --> 00:05:14.745 When you're a sports person, you're so selfish. 00:05:14.835 --> 00:05:17.805 It's all about you because it all lands on your shoulders. 00:05:18.315 --> 00:05:22.875 In a sport like racing, Formula 1, it really is a collective effort 00:05:22.875 --> 00:05:25.915 because no matter how good you are as a driver, if your car isn't quick 00:05:25.965 --> 00:05:28.215 enough, you're not going to win a race. 00:05:28.485 --> 00:05:32.655 So I think being in that environment, you learn quite early on, okay, 00:05:32.655 --> 00:05:33.975 I need the people around me. 00:05:34.125 --> 00:05:36.015 So you need to bring people on the journey with you. 00:05:36.015 --> 00:05:40.515 They need to live through the successes, but also the failures, so that camaraderie 00:05:40.635 --> 00:05:44.235 is instilled in you from a very young age because you wanna get to the best team, 00:05:44.415 --> 00:05:48.490 you wanna have the best people around you, and ultimately, I learned quite early 00:05:48.490 --> 00:05:51.039 on surround yourself with great people. 00:05:51.340 --> 00:05:55.240 When I moved and transitioned into leading a Formula team, I looked at my whole 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:59.620 network that I'd met over the many years and immediately looked, okay, who do I 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:03.010 want to surround myself with, who are best in class in each of their areas? 00:06:03.460 --> 00:06:09.250 And in our sports, quite often the quickest way to gain performance is 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:12.820 simply to poach someone from another team that's performing because 00:06:12.820 --> 00:06:14.200 they bring all their know-how. 00:06:14.760 --> 00:06:19.619 Surround yourself with great people and set realistic goals. 00:06:19.710 --> 00:06:24.510 You know, you need to be quite honest in your beliefs of what you can achieve. 00:06:24.510 --> 00:06:27.150 Because if I'd gone to those people I was trying to hire and say, listen, 00:06:27.359 --> 00:06:30.299 we can be world champions in 2 years, they would've laughed in my face. 00:06:30.359 --> 00:06:34.050 We didn't have the organization, the know how, the investment in 00:06:34.050 --> 00:06:37.410 the background ,to turn it around quickly, but I very much said to them, 00:06:37.410 --> 00:06:39.030 listen, I know what I need to do. 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:40.620 Come on this journey with me. 00:06:40.950 --> 00:06:46.230 I manage their expectations, but I very much made them come and feel part of the 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:47.790 transformation and part of the journey. 00:06:48.525 --> 00:06:53.025 Tiggy Valen: That old adage sounds so true of it takes a village and it's equally 00:06:53.025 --> 00:06:57.075 important in the successes, but also the failures, and maybe even more so in the 00:06:57.075 --> 00:07:01.365 failures because you do have to have a little bit more persuasion, convincing, 00:07:01.365 --> 00:07:03.735 honesty to get the right people on board. 00:07:03.735 --> 00:07:07.245 But hopefully it's a self-fulfilling prophecy where you get the people 00:07:07.245 --> 00:07:10.845 who believe in the mission and you can work towards success together. 00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:17.100 One thing I love about Formula 1, F1 Academy, is that you all operate across 00:07:17.190 --> 00:07:20.700 dozens of countries and cultures, which means you're constantly working with 00:07:20.700 --> 00:07:25.800 people who have very different styles of communication, cultural expectations. 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:28.170 I'm curious how that experience has been for you. 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.810 Susie Wolff: I definitely had to navigate that, but I also realized 00:07:30.810 --> 00:07:34.320 it does come down to the individuals, not just certain cultures, but the 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:38.720 individuals within that culture, and you start to learn through your key people, 00:07:39.100 --> 00:07:40.755 okay, how do they like to communicate? 00:07:40.995 --> 00:07:44.625 Do they need me to ask them how their family is before we get down to business 00:07:44.625 --> 00:07:46.035 or can we get straight into business? 00:07:46.035 --> 00:07:50.194 And I think you learn how certain characters are and then 00:07:50.194 --> 00:07:51.945 you navigate your way through. 00:07:51.945 --> 00:07:56.085 But my preferred line of communication is always get to it, be efficient, 00:07:56.085 --> 00:07:57.315 and let's not waste any time. 00:07:57.780 --> 00:08:00.990 Matt Abrahams: Being cognizant of what works for you, I think is the starting 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:02.940 point for communicating with others. 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.940 And then the second thing I heard you say, which is really important, is 00:08:05.940 --> 00:08:10.440 be open to input and insight into how others like to be communicated and then 00:08:10.440 --> 00:08:11.700 make adjustments if it makes sense. 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:16.380 As managing director of the F1 Academy, you were tasked with 00:08:16.380 --> 00:08:19.919 creating a competitive pathway for young female drivers. 00:08:20.310 --> 00:08:24.120 A lot of what we talk about on the show is persuasion and influence. 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:29.010 When you were building this movement and generating a call to action, that was a 00:08:29.010 --> 00:08:32.850 long-term vision, how do you get people to join you, especially when they're 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:36.630 traditionally focused on the here and now, the immediate short-term results. 00:08:36.809 --> 00:08:40.080 How did you manage to get people to buy into your long-term vision? 00:08:40.635 --> 00:08:44.145 Susie Wolff: Well, I was really lucky that I was in an industry which realized 00:08:44.145 --> 00:08:46.935 that the climate was changing, in a way. 00:08:47.235 --> 00:08:52.155 We as F1, have 42% of the global fan base now being female. 00:08:52.515 --> 00:08:57.255 So, I only really took this role at F1 Academy because I knew this was our 00:08:57.255 --> 00:09:00.915 chance, and I wasn't even sure if we would ever see this chance in my lifetime, 00:09:00.915 --> 00:09:03.375 but I think that the sport changed. 00:09:03.375 --> 00:09:07.694 There was a massive investment in women's sport at the time, and I think those 00:09:07.694 --> 00:09:12.250 elements really made me believe, okay, the timing is right for something to shift. 00:09:12.550 --> 00:09:16.720 But when I arrived F1 Academy and had been set up to be something much smaller, 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.810 and of course I came in with this huge vision, we're gonna race with F1. 00:09:19.810 --> 00:09:23.110 We're gonna centralize all the commercial assets in-house. 00:09:23.350 --> 00:09:25.000 I'm gonna get the F1 teams on board. 00:09:25.270 --> 00:09:30.640 But I was at the beginning just taking my time to build a very clear strategy. 00:09:30.940 --> 00:09:33.850 I'm someone that doesn't try to run before I can walk. 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:38.310 So I said to Stefano, the CEO of Formula 1, I need 6 weeks to really figure out 00:09:38.310 --> 00:09:42.000 this plan, and then I'll come to you and I'll show you what I think we need to do. 00:09:42.270 --> 00:09:46.199 And I really took my time then to really speak to the best in the business, 00:09:46.199 --> 00:09:47.880 the people whose opinions I rated. 00:09:48.270 --> 00:09:49.439 What do you think we can do? 00:09:49.469 --> 00:09:51.060 What's been done in the past that hasn't worked? 00:09:51.060 --> 00:09:55.199 So I got as much intel from as many different people within the sport, 00:09:55.199 --> 00:09:58.620 different perspectives from mine, and some were not nice to hear. 00:09:58.859 --> 00:10:01.229 Women will never make it to Formula 1, you're wasting your time. 00:10:01.589 --> 00:10:03.569 But I had to hear those inputs. 00:10:03.569 --> 00:10:06.270 I had to know why they didn't think it was possible. 00:10:06.300 --> 00:10:09.569 'Cause that was just as important for me then those who said, it's 00:10:09.569 --> 00:10:11.069 absolutely important on the sport. 00:10:11.069 --> 00:10:12.270 This is what we need to do. 00:10:12.270 --> 00:10:14.699 This is going to get more female talent. 00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:17.010 And then it was about building a team. 00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:21.060 But the initial months were, I like to say firefighting. 00:10:21.510 --> 00:10:25.080 We were trying to come up with solutions to scenarios that had 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:26.135 never come up in the sport before. 00:10:26.939 --> 00:10:32.580 You know, in the F1 teams, they've never given their name and liveries to anything 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:34.230 outside of the cars they've built. 00:10:34.560 --> 00:10:37.560 And suddenly there was little me asking them, I want you to do it for 00:10:37.560 --> 00:10:39.900 a female racing driver in F1 Academy. 00:10:40.170 --> 00:10:44.310 But I think when they understood why this could have a positive impact in the sport, 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:49.110 how it could generate return on investment for them, they could see the reasons why. 00:10:49.170 --> 00:10:52.710 And then I turned around and said, and I'm not going to oblige you to stay. 00:10:53.069 --> 00:10:56.819 If you give me your trust, I'll prove to you that this can work. 00:10:57.150 --> 00:10:59.130 And if it doesn't, you can walk away at any moment. 00:10:59.609 --> 00:11:03.569 I won't oblige you and you shouldn't look at us and feel like it's a charity case. 00:11:04.020 --> 00:11:08.459 And then slowly but surely, we managed to build a platform, which really showed 00:11:08.459 --> 00:11:13.050 that it had its place in this sport, that created value, that had a financial 00:11:13.050 --> 00:11:17.700 sustainability as a backbone, and I think that's what allowed me over then 00:11:17.859 --> 00:11:22.470 2 or 3 seasons to build that credibility and to show people that, well, F1 00:11:22.470 --> 00:11:24.720 Academy can be positively impactful. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.780 Matt Abrahams: You started, it sounds like, by really understanding 00:11:27.780 --> 00:11:31.710 the opportunity, having done some research into what made sense. 00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:34.920 It didn't hurt that there were some things going on in the broader 00:11:35.069 --> 00:11:38.310 change in how people approach sport, especially around women. 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:42.510 And then you set up a strategy, you set time to really think 00:11:42.510 --> 00:11:43.620 about it strategically. 00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:47.970 And what really resonated with me is you took time to talk to people, not just 00:11:47.970 --> 00:11:51.930 people who had similar ideas and opinions, but people who had very disparate opinions 00:11:51.930 --> 00:11:53.400 and that helped you form the plan. 00:11:53.699 --> 00:11:57.090 And through that you were able to put together a very persuasive message. 00:11:57.300 --> 00:11:59.310 And I love also that you had metrics. 00:11:59.310 --> 00:12:02.790 You said, here's what success is gonna look like and hold me to the success. 00:12:02.819 --> 00:12:05.850 And congratulations, by the way, on the success that you've had with that. 00:12:06.270 --> 00:12:08.430 There are a lot of lessons in there for anybody who's 00:12:08.430 --> 00:12:09.660 trying to implement something. 00:12:09.660 --> 00:12:13.260 Have a vision, make sure it's grounded in reality, come up with a plan 00:12:13.260 --> 00:12:16.470 that's informed by not just people who support what you're saying, and 00:12:16.470 --> 00:12:20.520 derive metrics and commit to those metrics, and from there, move forward. 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:25.200 In leadership, in any situation, but especially in elite sport, you 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:28.380 often are put in a situation where you have to deliver hard truths. 00:12:28.650 --> 00:12:32.310 Maybe a driver isn't performing well, a sponsor isn't properly aligned. 00:12:32.729 --> 00:12:36.420 How do you prepare yourself for those conversations and what advice do you have 00:12:36.569 --> 00:12:38.699 for delivering constructive feedback? 00:12:38.939 --> 00:12:42.089 My sense is something, part of it is being very direct, but I'm 00:12:42.089 --> 00:12:43.800 curious the other pieces for you. 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:45.390 Susie Wolff: Well, my husband calls it tough. 00:12:45.390 --> 00:12:49.890 Love that feedback on where you need to improve, what you can do better, 00:12:49.890 --> 00:12:52.084 and I won't lie, it hurts a little bit. 00:12:53.085 --> 00:12:57.555 I do like and appreciate also the areas and the weaknesses that, that 00:12:57.555 --> 00:13:01.694 he pulls up, the criticisms, because as much as it stings in that first 00:13:01.694 --> 00:13:03.795 moment, it helps you be better. 00:13:04.185 --> 00:13:07.935 And I'm a big believer in getting comfortable in the uncomfortable. 00:13:08.175 --> 00:13:12.405 Put yourself in those situations where you are under pressure or you are getting 00:13:12.405 --> 00:13:13.840 feedback that isn't what you want to hear. 00:13:14.535 --> 00:13:16.965 And don't get too overly emotional about it. 00:13:16.965 --> 00:13:20.055 Try and take a step back and say, okay, why have they formed 00:13:20.055 --> 00:13:22.935 that opinion that I could do that better or that isn't good enough? 00:13:23.205 --> 00:13:26.895 And how can I actually make sure that I do do it better? 00:13:26.895 --> 00:13:29.235 Or it can be seen in a different light. 00:13:29.275 --> 00:13:32.355 And there are sometimes instances where I say, well, I disagree 00:13:32.595 --> 00:13:35.835 because this is why I do it and this is why it's turned out this way. 00:13:36.015 --> 00:13:39.345 But I do think in those moments you have to just take the initial sting 00:13:39.345 --> 00:13:42.825 that is criticism, but then see it for the positive because it does 00:13:42.825 --> 00:13:44.915 help you improve in the long term. 00:13:44.915 --> 00:13:48.875 But I also, when I'm delivering criticism to my team or sometimes to 00:13:48.875 --> 00:13:52.895 the drivers, I do always try and put myself in the other person's shoes 00:13:53.135 --> 00:13:55.115 so I could see their perspective. 00:13:55.115 --> 00:13:57.064 And that's one of the things I love about my role. 00:13:57.064 --> 00:13:59.495 I've been on the journey that these young women have been on. 00:13:59.705 --> 00:14:03.965 I know how tough it is and I know how much they sacrifice to try and make it 00:14:03.965 --> 00:14:05.765 as a driver and not all of them will. 00:14:05.765 --> 00:14:08.885 And there's certain times where it does break my heart when I have to 00:14:08.885 --> 00:14:11.314 tell a driver, well you're out 'cause the performance wasn't there, because 00:14:11.735 --> 00:14:13.265 I've had someone tell that to me. 00:14:13.680 --> 00:14:16.950 And I know how tough it can be, but I think the one thing I've 00:14:16.950 --> 00:14:19.770 definitely learned is don't shy away from confrontation. 00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:21.990 Don't shy away from the difficult discussions. 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:25.380 Don't try and get other people to do them for you because you need 00:14:25.380 --> 00:14:27.240 to have the difficult discussions. 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:32.060 And as long as you can do it in a human way, which has a bit of empathy built 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:34.350 in, you need to deliver the hard truth. 00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:37.950 And quite often, those hard truths are the moments in your life where you 00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:41.880 either have to dig deeper and come back stronger or slightly change your pathway. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.950 You mentioned the word failure. 00:14:44.190 --> 00:14:48.510 I had so many more failures in my life than I did successes, so many more. 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.300 But it was in those moments of failure where I had to decide, 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.960 okay, am I coming back from this or am I taking a different route? 00:14:55.470 --> 00:15:00.120 And it's in those moments that I think you really have to stay true to yourself. 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.900 Have you got it in you to keep going or are you going to pick another path? 00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:05.010 Tiggy Valen: I love that. 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:06.570 I'm hearing two things. 00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:10.320 One, to be able to deliver hard feedback, you first have to be 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.090 comfortable with receiving it yourself. 00:15:12.090 --> 00:15:15.810 You have to get over the initial sting of it and take that and 00:15:15.810 --> 00:15:19.140 say, this is a defining moment of whether I become something better 00:15:19.140 --> 00:15:21.390 or something different, or I don't. 00:15:21.390 --> 00:15:23.490 And then second is that empathy piece. 00:15:23.490 --> 00:15:26.910 So when you are delivering hard feedback, you really have to think about who 00:15:26.910 --> 00:15:30.510 you're delivering that message to and make sure that you're thinking 00:15:30.510 --> 00:15:32.520 through what it's like in their shoes. 00:15:32.925 --> 00:15:37.785 I wanna go back to one of the things you said, Susie, because you mentioned 00:15:37.785 --> 00:15:41.295 you learned to become comfortable in the, with the uncomfortable. 00:15:41.295 --> 00:15:45.585 And first of all, congratulations on your book because in the letter 00:15:45.585 --> 00:15:49.545 to your younger self at the end of Driven, you mentioned that, and I would 00:15:49.545 --> 00:15:51.525 love to dig into that a little more. 00:15:51.525 --> 00:15:55.845 When you speak to whether it's young women today, your drivers or whoever 00:15:55.850 --> 00:16:00.900 else, how would you instruct them to embrace that discomfort and also 00:16:00.900 --> 00:16:05.699 communicate their value and kind of sit with that and make something out of it? 00:16:06.300 --> 00:16:09.599 Susie Wolff: I think that getting comfortable and the uncomfortable is 00:16:09.719 --> 00:16:12.180 also closely linked to resilience. 00:16:12.420 --> 00:16:15.000 When you're really put on the spot where you're under pressure, 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:16.050 where you're uncomfortable. 00:16:17.385 --> 00:16:20.895 That is where you need to find that inner strength within you to say, 00:16:20.895 --> 00:16:25.665 okay, I can overcome this, or I can prepare myself in such a way that 00:16:25.665 --> 00:16:28.395 I have the tools to overcome this. 00:16:28.635 --> 00:16:32.564 And in high pressure environments, which was a lot of my career and even to this 00:16:32.564 --> 00:16:37.725 day, I always say to myself, the best I can do is be the best version of myself, 00:16:38.115 --> 00:16:42.435 and if that's good enough to succeed I can be really proud, if it's not good 00:16:42.435 --> 00:16:46.905 enough, well, I gave it my best shot, and I'm okay with not succeeding, with 00:16:46.905 --> 00:16:51.225 failing, but it's putting yourself in the best possible position for success. 00:16:51.225 --> 00:16:54.435 So even when it gets uncomfortable, what are you doing to try 00:16:54.435 --> 00:16:55.515 and make it then comfortable? 00:16:55.515 --> 00:16:57.855 What are you doing to put yourself in a position where you can get 00:16:57.855 --> 00:17:00.285 yourself back into a comfort zone? 00:17:00.675 --> 00:17:02.435 How are you learning new things? 00:17:02.915 --> 00:17:06.089 And those are the moments where I think you grow the most as a person. 00:17:06.390 --> 00:17:10.319 And I remember when I took the role in the Formula E team, there was 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.079 a couple of moments in the first six weeks where I thought, what 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.400 have I caught myself into here? 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:19.260 This is so much, and I don't have the tools to manage all of this. 00:17:19.815 --> 00:17:21.435 The same thing with F1 Academy. 00:17:21.555 --> 00:17:24.045 I remember one of the first race weekend, my phone was blowing up from 00:17:24.045 --> 00:17:27.315 the team principles in F1 for everyone telling me what's wrong, what needs 00:17:27.315 --> 00:17:31.545 to be better, why it's not good, and I said, God, there's so much to do. 00:17:31.815 --> 00:17:35.565 But then again, that little person in me that loves the challenge, that has 00:17:35.565 --> 00:17:37.215 the resilience kicked in and said, okay. 00:17:37.785 --> 00:17:40.095 Let's work through this step by step. 00:17:40.215 --> 00:17:41.205 We are gonna manage this. 00:17:41.205 --> 00:17:42.225 Let's break it down. 00:17:42.375 --> 00:17:45.075 What can we do as small steps that will then, you know, look like 00:17:45.075 --> 00:17:46.695 bigger steps in the mid to long term? 00:17:46.695 --> 00:17:51.735 So I think it really is that preparation of putting yourself in the best position 00:17:51.765 --> 00:17:56.445 to succeed in any given moments, no matter how uncomfortable you are, and then 00:17:56.445 --> 00:18:00.495 not allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by just how big the challenge is. 00:18:01.185 --> 00:18:05.235 Matt Abrahams: Really that approach of gonna give it my best, and 00:18:05.295 --> 00:18:08.115 even if it doesn't go the way I want, knowing that I give it my 00:18:08.115 --> 00:18:10.095 best is something I can live with. 00:18:10.635 --> 00:18:12.825 And then breaking it down into the pieces. 00:18:12.825 --> 00:18:16.635 So while it might be very uncomfortable and overwhelming, there is a path 00:18:16.635 --> 00:18:18.225 forward, and I appreciate that. 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.160 Susie, before we end, as you know, I like to ask three questions. 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.940 One I'm gonna make up just for you, and then the other two I've been asking people 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:28.170 as long as we've been doing the show. 00:18:28.170 --> 00:18:28.830 Are you up for that? 00:18:29.070 --> 00:18:30.629 Susie Wolff: I'm up for it, you're gonna put me on the spot. 00:18:30.870 --> 00:18:34.379 Matt Abrahams: So one of the things I really enjoyed about your book 00:18:34.379 --> 00:18:36.570 was how honest and open you were. 00:18:36.629 --> 00:18:38.879 You demonstrated a lot of vulnerability. 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:44.230 I'm curious to get your thoughts on the role vulnerability plays in leadership. 00:18:44.260 --> 00:18:49.600 Is it important for leaders to be vulnerable, to share failures and 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.159 negative thoughts that they've had? 00:18:51.159 --> 00:18:53.679 Is that an important piece to being an effective leader? 00:18:54.074 --> 00:18:57.195 Susie Wolff: For me it is because I think especially in the role that I am 00:18:57.195 --> 00:19:00.824 in where I'm having a lot of interactions with the next generation and I'm 00:19:00.824 --> 00:19:04.395 trying to inspire them, I'm trying to create a new pathway within what is 00:19:04.395 --> 00:19:08.294 the very male dominated environment, I want them to learn from my mistakes. 00:19:08.355 --> 00:19:12.105 I want them to realize how tough my journey was so that their journey might 00:19:12.105 --> 00:19:14.595 be a little bit less tough than mine was. 00:19:14.895 --> 00:19:17.264 And of course, my husband works in the same industry. 00:19:17.264 --> 00:19:20.879 And he's someone that when they were dominant in Formula 1 had huge 00:19:20.879 --> 00:19:25.320 visibility and he chose to take that moment when he had a very powerful voice 00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:28.860 to say, well, I also have struggles, you know, with my own mental health. 00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:33.240 And he felt it was important to humanize because quite often people 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.510 look from a distance and they think we are having this incredible life. 00:19:36.810 --> 00:19:40.060 And don't get me wrong, there's so many things I'm very grateful for in my life. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:43.455 But in the book, it was important for me to show that it hasn't 00:19:43.455 --> 00:19:45.085 all been a bed of roses. 00:19:45.135 --> 00:19:48.735 There's been so many tough moments in the journey and I hope a lot of 00:19:48.735 --> 00:19:52.725 women will resonate and men with tough moments in their journey and 00:19:52.725 --> 00:19:54.165 how you have to pick yourself back up. 00:19:54.705 --> 00:19:59.145 But we all have our own struggles and I think my style of leadership is 00:19:59.145 --> 00:20:03.225 certainly to be quite open in those moments so that people can resonate. 00:20:03.225 --> 00:20:07.695 And I think that honesty shows people that you're also being authentic. 00:20:08.355 --> 00:20:11.505 Matt Abrahams: There certainly is an authenticity to that, and thank you for 00:20:11.565 --> 00:20:14.835 sharing your perspective and bringing in the issue with your husband as well. 00:20:15.435 --> 00:20:20.175 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:20:20.775 --> 00:20:25.065 Susie Wolff: Well, I've mentioned his name quite often, but definitely my husband. 00:20:25.635 --> 00:20:27.885 I remember at the very beginning when we came together and he 00:20:27.885 --> 00:20:29.775 said, let's not play the games. 00:20:30.405 --> 00:20:32.505 I'm going to call you when I have time to call you. 00:20:32.505 --> 00:20:34.785 I'm gonna text when I have time, and if I don't, it's simply because I 00:20:34.785 --> 00:20:39.135 don't have time in that given working day, but I'm not going to play games. 00:20:39.495 --> 00:20:43.425 And that clarity and openness at the very beginning, it set the 00:20:43.425 --> 00:20:44.835 tone for our whole relationship. 00:20:45.195 --> 00:20:47.925 And he's someone that says, okay, we're not going to go to sleep 00:20:47.925 --> 00:20:51.600 if we've had a disagreement or we're angry with each other, and 00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:53.220 he's very good at communicating. 00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:57.840 He's very good at taking the time to sit and be in the moment and to really listen. 00:20:58.050 --> 00:21:01.409 Phones away, not that distraction of feeling you're talking to someone 00:21:01.409 --> 00:21:03.510 who's got 10 other things going on. 00:21:03.810 --> 00:21:07.440 And I do think it's one of the things in our marriage, which is such a 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.379 strength at the core, that we are very open and honest with each other. 00:21:10.379 --> 00:21:14.100 We just communicate really well, and I definitely learned so much 00:21:14.490 --> 00:21:16.110 in how to be a better communicator. 00:21:16.814 --> 00:21:20.564 Matt Abrahams: That directness and that focus make a lot of sense for all of 00:21:20.564 --> 00:21:24.645 us, and thanks for giving us a little insight into that relationship you have. 00:21:25.034 --> 00:21:26.115 Final question. 00:21:26.564 --> 00:21:31.665 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:21:32.145 --> 00:21:34.965 Susie Wolff: Well, I think I've mentioned them a lot already. 00:21:34.965 --> 00:21:37.784 I think the first one for me is the authenticity. 00:21:38.235 --> 00:21:39.165 Be who you are. 00:21:39.254 --> 00:21:42.764 Don't try and be something you think you need to be or what you 00:21:42.764 --> 00:21:44.475 think others expect you to be. 00:21:45.105 --> 00:21:47.985 You are you, and the easiest thing you can be is you. 00:21:48.375 --> 00:21:52.035 And for me, it's also the honesty, that honesty in communicating, 00:21:52.035 --> 00:21:55.095 but also putting your hand up when you've made a mistake or where you 00:21:55.095 --> 00:21:57.075 think you could do something better. 00:21:57.495 --> 00:22:01.305 And the last one for me is something that I've really realized moving into the 00:22:01.305 --> 00:22:03.715 business side of the sport's is clarity. 00:22:03.985 --> 00:22:07.995 So much words get spoken, meetings get done, and you 00:22:07.995 --> 00:22:10.515 actually can narrow it all down. 00:22:10.935 --> 00:22:12.765 I always say to my team, well, give me clarity. 00:22:12.765 --> 00:22:14.205 What do you actually mean? 00:22:14.385 --> 00:22:15.825 What do we want to take from this meeting? 00:22:15.825 --> 00:22:17.085 What are the steps forward? 00:22:17.085 --> 00:22:21.105 Because sometimes there's just so much talking, so many meetings, and we need to 00:22:21.105 --> 00:22:24.975 be really focused and just with clarity, communicate with each other, and it 00:22:24.975 --> 00:22:26.565 just makes it so much more efficient. 00:22:27.165 --> 00:22:29.865 Matt Abrahams: Well, you were certainly clear in the three that you gave us, 00:22:29.985 --> 00:22:32.445 authenticity, honesty, and clarity. 00:22:33.225 --> 00:22:35.865 Susie, this has been a lovely conversation. 00:22:35.925 --> 00:22:39.824 So many valuable insights that we can all take for our personal lives, and it's just 00:22:39.824 --> 00:22:43.304 fascinating to, your life is fascinating and thank you for sharing that. 00:22:43.635 --> 00:22:45.794 Tiggy, thank you so much for joining and helping. 00:22:45.794 --> 00:22:48.735 I know you are passionate about the sport and I appreciate the work 00:22:48.735 --> 00:22:51.090 you do to help bring light to it. 00:22:51.705 --> 00:22:53.784 And congratulations on the book, Susie. 00:22:53.805 --> 00:22:58.815 Driven is a very personal and yet very insightful book on many levels. 00:22:58.815 --> 00:22:59.865 Thank you and all the best. 00:23:00.285 --> 00:23:01.305 Susie Wolff: Thank you both so much. 00:23:01.545 --> 00:23:02.055 Tiggy Valen: Thank you. 00:23:03.525 --> 00:23:05.445 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:23:05.445 --> 00:23:07.335 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:23:07.545 --> 00:23:10.425 To learn more about empowering women in sport, please listen to 00:23:10.455 --> 00:23:12.435 episode 235 with Chiney Ogwumike. 00:23:13.335 --> 00:23:17.655 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. 00:23:18.074 --> 00:23:19.665 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:23:19.725 --> 00:23:22.000 With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:23:22.965 --> 00:23:25.455 Please be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:25.785 --> 00:23:28.845 Find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:29.085 --> 00:23:32.205 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:23:32.535 --> 00:23:36.465 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:23:36.465 --> 00:23:38.385 Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:38.745 --> 00:23:41.715 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:23:41.715 --> 00:23:44.185 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:23:44.510 --> 00:23:48.170 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI 00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:50.570 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:23:50.780 --> 00:23:55.880 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:23:55.970 --> 00:23:57.710 Talk Smart learning Community.