{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "0.0", "endTime": "25.115", "body": "Welcome back to the Grounded Union Podcast. We are on season five episode four, where we're gonna talk about why your wife has so many questions. So this is a there's probably not any books written about your wife's questions about your addiction or your affair or the betrayal, but this is a topic that gets brought up so much because everybody just wants it to go back to normal. Whatever normal was. I wanted this, let's just kind of break off that notion." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "25.115", "endTime": "37.44", "body": "Can we get over this? To what, to what? Did you have like a good relationship before? Do you know what you're getting it over to? Yeah. Can we get back to how things were before she knew about the addiction?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "38.0", "endTime": "59.9", "body": "Because right now she's really upset and she asked me a lot of questions, questions I don't seem to have adequate answers to. And I think that the biggest, I'll give you the summary. If you need to turn off the podcast, if the kids are screaming in the background, you got to go. The summary of today's episode is if your wife is asking questions, there's something behind the question. And so it's not like you don't answer the question." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "59.9", "endTime": "76.91499", "body": "It's actually that it communicates what she feels about the relationship. It means that there is still more to explore and we don't shy away from questions. We lean into the questions. You know what would be crazy if you guys don't like your wife questions about your addiction. Talk about how much you're working." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "76.91499", "endTime": "85.55499", "body": "I like basically bring so much to her. Say, Hey, here's what I discovered about myself. Here's what I discovered my past. Here's the healing action I'm taking. Here's this, this, this and this." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "85.55499", "endTime": "114.985", "body": "Here's how I'm healing today where she goes, he must have been thinking about it more than I was today. If you want to be miserable, healing after an addiction or affair, make your wife motivate your healing. It will just be a good exhaustion fest because she will have to get upset to get you to pay attention. And that's going to come with a lot of questions. So instead of forcing your wife to be the one that berates you, pulls it out of you, that makes you do the work, start asking yourself some questions." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "115.82", "endTime": "121.18", "body": "How did this addiction impact me? How did I get here? And these aren't shame based. Like, oh, how did I do this again? It's like, no, really?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "121.18", "endTime": "129.755", "body": "How did you get here? How did you get in the situation you're in? Why did you do it? Why did you keep doing it? Why did you not tell her the truth earlier?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "129.755", "endTime": "147.68001", "body": "And you ask yourself the questions because if you aren't asking yourself the questions, she's going to have to. And we're going to talk about some open ended questions your wife might have. But really we want to start off with why your wife questioning you post disclosure post finding out you've been a liar has been such a negative thing." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "147.68001", "endTime": "159.485", "body": "And I think the first thing that comes up so much is you believe that your wife's questions come from her insecurity. And that was a strategy I had early on in our marriage is Caitlyn would ask me things." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "159.485", "endTime": "169.12999", "body": "I'm like, sure, babe. Yeah, I'm good. Are you sure it's not because you're feeling insecure and this is about how you're kind of your body image. I forget that. Cause we haven't even talked about that in so long." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "169.12999", "endTime": "186.215", "body": "Like I used to get Caitlyn to think, are you sure you're not like thinking I'm lying to you or going to things or looking at women a certain way, you're just insecure that you're fat, you don't like how you look in your clothes. You're kind of projecting that onto me and she'd be like, you know what? You're right. I do feel insecure. Can you support me?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "186.215", "endTime": "204.31999", "body": "And you see, I took the focus off me. I'm like, yes, she's not focused on me. It's her insecurity. And I think that is one of the paramount strategies that men in leadership and civilians have created is if we can make this about her feeling insecure, then this isn't about my addiction. This isn't about the pain that I caused." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "204.31999", "endTime": "214.875", "body": "This is about how she's choosing to respond to it. And we so quickly take it off of, wow, the woman that was wounded is now fully responsible for cleaning up her husband's mess and no longer feeling sad about it." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "214.875", "endTime": "215.275", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "215.275", "endTime": "223.86002", "body": "Don't ask questions. Don't feel bad. Don't feel insecure. Mhmm. And so if we make the insecurity big, then my responsibility in the present moment gets very little." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "224.1", "endTime": "234.58", "body": "It's like, well, yeah, I did do those things, but it's time to move through it. It's time to move on. Why are you so insecure? And then you think, oh, now she feels guilty for being insecure. And that's why we're going to dive into." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "234.58", "endTime": "244.955", "body": "I actually, I grew to love Caitlyn's questions and I actually grew to ask them first. And we're gonna talk to you about how you can do that. First, we gotta talk about why we view questions as a bad thing." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "244.955", "endTime": "279.38", "body": "Mhmm. Going along with the insecurity as the kind of projection or the label that we'll put on a wife who's been betrayed, I remember when I had discovered everything in 2019 and I had a lot of questions. And I'm just innocent. I had no idea. Like it's not like I am sitting on the couch that I am now knowing kind of all the negative shenanigans that go around in in these professional workplaces when it's kind of the topic of, you know, sex and betrayal and porn and all those things." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "279.38", "endTime": "309.83002", "body": "Like, I didn't know that asking questions was super taboo until until I started telling different pastors and mentors. We would be in these, you know, meetings. I remember one specifically, we're sitting at home, our kids are napping, and it's somebody who, like, lived in the same town as us, but we were just Skyping them virtually because that was easier with the kids. You know, I'm kinda like, okay. And so I wanna know I wanna be able to talk with Brandon about when he's having these kinda lustful thoughts, when he's kinda thinking about another woman." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "310.23", "endTime": "333.58002", "body": "And the the he was a counselor. He was actually coaching us because he doesn't counsel his friends, he had said, and he was just also a mentor and a friend, but certified license, all the things stops me and says he's pastor and Christian leader as well. He has all the titles. He says, well, I think that's really codependent of you. And I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, like here I am, I'm young." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "334.22", "endTime": "347.205", "body": "I haven't been married that long. Again, I didn't know this is a taboo topic. I'm like, oh shoot, like am I codependent? Cause I want to know. Like I had this moment where I'm like, and I think a lot of women feel this like, oh shoot, I am the crazy one." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "347.28497", "endTime": "358.62", "body": "Oh gosh, I am the issue here. Oh, I have too many questions. That's why we're having a hard time in our marriage. Thank God. I had the audacity to knock some sense back into myself." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "358.62", "endTime": "372.595", "body": "I remember getting into the shower. He said I was codependent and then he later labeled me as controlling as well. A different pastor also came over and told Brandon that one day he would write a book on how I was code or how I was controlling and how you were what, passive?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "372.595", "endTime": "373.875", "body": "I just had some healing work to do." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "373.875", "endTime": "390.94", "body": "Yeah. How he had some healing work to do and how essentially he healed from having a super controlling wife. Well, you'll hear at the end of the show Brandon's first book is about to come out and has nothing to do with me being a controlling wife. So I get into the shower after this and I'm like, okay God, like genuinely." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "391.97998", "endTime": "406.545", "body": "Like, I'm not, I don't know, I'm doing a podcast seven years from now at the moment of this shower. Like, I'm just on my own freaking journey. Like I don't care about anybody else hearing my freaking story. Like I don't care. This is just between me, myself, my soul and God." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "406.545", "endTime": "414.27002", "body": "I'm like, please tell me right now. Am I being controlling? Am I being codependent? Because why guys? Because why?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "414.43", "endTime": "439.125", "body": "Because I wanna know if my husband's freaking thinking. I say the word freaking a lot because it's like, I can't even with this nonsense. I just wanna know if my husband was thinking sexual thoughts about other women. God forbid I asked that question or I'm gonna be controlling and codependent. I'm asking God in the shower, tell me now." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "439.125", "endTime": "460.565", "body": "Like, I don't wanna be those things. Like, I just got a message from somebody that said they had been fed the same narrative, the same shenanigans growing up in their church. Their husband had been fed the same thing, and he's kinda like, yeah, like, I guess I am just supposed to live this way, and you're not really supposed to ask about it, and we're not supposed to know about it. And she said she had come to this moment where she goes, fine, fine. This must be the design." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "460.565", "endTime": "471.125", "body": "Right? Like, essentially just gave in on her own vision, gave in on herself. And five days later, she sees our videos online. I have goosebumps even saying this. And she's like, woah, no." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "471.125", "endTime": "488.78", "body": "The vision I had that we could have a marriage fully healed from this is 100 possible. And that's the moment I had in the shower was like, wait, wait, wait, none of that makes sense. Right? It's like piggybacking off of what we just said in the last episode. None of that makes sense because what that is is dishonesty in my marriage." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "489.51498", "endTime": "509.93002", "body": "And why in the world, even if you remove God out of this, but I'll bring him in because I believe he's in this, why in the world would God ever want a marriage? Why is my Christian leaders and Christian pastors and Christian counselors condoning that God would even believe in having a marriage with dishonesty? And again, we can remove that out. Let's just say you don't believe in God. Great." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "509.93002", "endTime": "527.875", "body": "Whatever you believe in, it's probably honesty, right? So why are we spreading this message of like dishonesty is okay in the marriage and if your wife has questions, she's freaking insecure, codependent and controlling. Like what the heck? Do you know why we're spreading that message? I'm not spreading that message." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "527.875", "endTime": "548.865", "body": "You know why people are spreading that message? And you got me on a pedestal right now, I'm fired up. The message is being spread because male leaders and leadership, I don't even feel bad about saying it. It's all over the news every freaking where, everywhere. Male leaders, whether Christian, spiritual or not, even CEO's like, whatever, was that guy at the concert, like the Coldplay concert." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "549.345", "endTime": "575.665", "body": "Male leaders are getting caught left and right having some of the most grotesque affairs and activities that you could think of and you could name. You better best believe they have created a whole system and belief system that points the finger at everyone else except for themselves to take a look in the mirror and take radical responsibility, radical honesty and clean up their own life and their own mess. Much easier to go, oh no no no. Yeah, you're wise controlling. She's insecure." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "575.665", "endTime": "582.385", "body": "She's codependent. Don't let her keep asking questions. Don't let her keep pain shopping. Don't let her keep bringing up those things. That doesn't matter." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "582.385", "endTime": "592.05", "body": "Oh, you don't need to look into those details. You don't need to look into that topic. Just tell her you looked at porn and move on. She doesn't need to know what type of porn. She doesn't need to know how often." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "592.05", "endTime": "600.52997", "body": "She doesn't need to know how long it's been going on in your marriage. Oh, no. Just get her to stop asking questions. Get her to shut up. Get her to stop crying." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "600.61", "endTime": "608.855", "body": "Just get back to normal. Just Yeah. Whatever normal was. The crappy marriage you had before, just get her to stop crying so you can go back to that. And it's like, what?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "609.095", "endTime": "612.21497", "body": "You guys, there is so much more hope out there for you than that." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "612.21497", "endTime": "636.475", "body": "It's the damage control piece where we actually believe that the man must live with this. So the wife not understanding that because he's gonna live with this, she needs to kinda learn to cope with it. So her like, basically, her going beyond her jurisdiction, like, woah, don't have clearance to go back behind that door because he's actually gonna as another man, I know what it's like to have his struggle. And so we know that she's trying to go into territory that she doesn't understand because she's a woman. She doesn't get it." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "636.555", "endTime": "649.65", "body": "And so we're going to protect another man and say, okay, you know what? You need to back off a little bit because this is part of the struggle of being a man in a sexualized world. And so you asking these questions, you don't realize how hard this is for Brandon. You don't realize how hard he's trying to heal." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "649.73", "endTime": "670.235", "body": "So Caitlyn wasn't controlling. We'll call it that. If Caitlyn didn't believe we'll actually call it what it was. Caitlyn wanted freedom for our relationship. Wanted intimacy, even if it hurt knowing the things that were going on inside of me, it wasn't the insecurity that was driving her desire for healing. It was actually her desire for love, her desire for connection." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "670.235", "endTime": "694.48505", "body": "And if Caitlyn hadn't done that, where would I be today? And not saying Caitlyn did all the healing work for me, but she had a vision for our healing while I was still numb. And she said, Hey, like this is where I'm heading. I'm like, I don't know if I want to do that. I don't know if I can do that, but then if I would have not had the challenge or the opportunity to rise to the occasion, if Caitlyn had not said, hey, let's work through the things that go through your mind." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "694.965", "endTime": "700.805", "body": "Well, guys, I'm seven years into this. I'd still be seven years into addiction. I'd still be seven years bound. Like," }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "700.805", "endTime": "701.045", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "701.37", "endTime": "725.915", "body": "Like, thank God I have a controlling wife. We'll call that if that's what they say. Thank goodness she's codependent and actually wants a relationship based off of intimacy, truth, and honesty. Cause if she didn't want those things, I'd be in addiction still because her standard would be low. And also like Caitlyn has been honest throughout our marriage about random thoughts that have come through her mind that she didn't feel comfortable with and things that took over her conscience, her conscious mind or a dream." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "725.915", "endTime": "745.355", "body": "She had things that most people say are not a big deal. She shared them with me and it made me feel tremendously safe knowing that my wife has such a high standard for herself, has examined her soul to a degree and brings those things to me and made me feel like, wow, there's nothing she's keeping back from me. Like I know her and she knows me and I'm like, this feels powerful. This feels strong. This feels safe." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "745.355", "endTime": "764.37", "body": "It doesn't feel like, oh, she's trying to control me, like, on a on a puppet string and just wants to control me and take away my man card because she doesn't know what it's like to be a man. It's like, what? She actually wants to experience the deepest level of love and connection possible in this life. Sign me up for that. I don't want her to lower her standards." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "764.37", "endTime": "774.90497", "body": "That would be bad news for me. I wouldn't have healed. I wouldn't have chosen to do the work if my wife said, hey, my, my expectations are low. Just don't sleep with somebody else. And like, means that her expectations are low for herself." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "774.90497", "endTime": "790.5", "body": "So my wife gox at other men, messages other men, fantasize about other men, flirts with other men, looks for attention from other men. That's a bummer. I don't want to, I don't want to be in a marriage like that. And so I'm grateful that she ignored the title she was given in the moment. Was petrified." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "790.74", "endTime": "806.385", "body": "You guys see how strong Caitlyn is. This was the woman I had plus pain on top of it and me being insecure and not knowing myself. I didn't know what to do. Then at the same time, was like, I'm not going to keep protecting the unhealthy behavior. And so I hit that critical point where I was like, I mean, I want what she's having." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "806.625", "endTime": "829.505", "body": "I want to give the treatment to my wife that she's giving me. Again, this is about her standards she held for herself and held for our relationship. I'm like, Your standard is higher than mine. Instead of trying to convince your wife to lower her standards, why not partner with how high the standard is? And again, like Caitlyn said, that's why so many of you are listening to this podcast engaging in the material is because it's like, wait, somebody that's not willing to lower the standard and also believe that healing's possible." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "829.505", "endTime": "838.385", "body": "It's not like you have a high standard and all of my husband's never gonna live up to my standards. The standard is the healing. It's the love. It's the intimacy. It's not ever your spouse looking to say, I want you to be somebody you can't." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "838.385", "endTime": "847.89996", "body": "It's like they're saying, hey, I know there's a lot of toxic stuff you're engaged in right now. That's not going to fly anymore. If we're going to stay married and it's like, Oh shoot, she means business. He means business. Great." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "847.89996", "endTime": "856.22", "body": "Sounds good. Great concoction for a great marriage. If you're willing to stop protecting the old version and start diving into the new one. Those are questions. Those are perspectives you want to partner with." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "856.435", "endTime": "886.19495", "body": "Yeah. So let's dive into something like we've covered essentially kind of the negative connotation that comes with asking questions, the betrayed spouse, having big emotions, all that's kind of shoved under the rug there. So let's go into what are questions that are actually gonna come up, and then we're gonna dive into and and finish out the podcast with why those questions matter. Why the details of answering questions matter? And questions that will come up, there's there's kinda two types of questions." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "886.19495", "endTime": "906.43", "body": "I I found myself asking and we see a lot of couples inside of our app asking, and there's kind of these rhetorical questions. Questions almost that don't actually really need answer. It's kind of the soul of the spouse crying out, and those questions might be, how could you have done this to me? Like, why did you do this to me? I remember asking that all the time." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "906.43", "endTime": "920.145", "body": "Like, I I remember the first time I'm hitting my head against the the floor. I'm not even, like, consciously thinking I'm gonna hit my head against the floor. I'm just like, how could you have done this to me? Like, you're just literally like, what? How could you have done this?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "920.145", "endTime": "937.88", "body": "And I know from experience of working with couples inside of our app that a lot of men take this so like literal. They're like, oh, like she literally wants me to like answer how I did this to her right now. Like, oh my gosh, how could she want me to do this? Like, is she asking me this question? And it's like, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "938.435", "endTime": "946.515", "body": "Look at her heart. She's in pain. Yeah. Of course, you know, that you might your spouse might ask like, do you even love me? Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "946.515", "endTime": "962.07", "body": "Again, I've heard of men getting offended by that. Well, of course I love you, sweetie. It's like, well, of course, she's asking you that because your actions are not communicating love. So why are you offended that she's asking you if you love her when your actions have been screaming, I hate you?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "962.07", "endTime": "979.835", "body": "And a lot of men, I think, they wanna get back into the good box as quickly as possible. I want, I want her to approve of me. I want her to acknowledge all the good I've done because feeling like I'm bad at my core is what was fueling my addiction and fueling the behavior. And a big thing that comes up and say, did you ever love me? And we've had this question come in a lot in our community is." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "980.49", "endTime": "996.765", "body": "Are any of the good times from the last two decades, like does any of that count? Or is all that lost? And I think we're still looking at the past with an incomplete lens. We actually can't, we exist in the present moment. And so everything that happened in the past is, is part of the story." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "996.765", "endTime": "1009.05", "body": "So if you look at the past twenty years and all of it was a lie, she's like, you're telling me our whole relationship was a lie. And you, you don't actually answer. Well, yeah, it was a lie. I was a horrible person. I don't care about you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1009.05", "endTime": "1014.49", "body": "She's not saying there's nothing about you that ever loved me. Even if she's saying that, she's saying, oh, so like nothing was real." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1014.49", "endTime": "1014.97003", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1014.97003", "endTime": "1020.97003", "body": "Nothing was genuine. Nothing was safe. And you you wanna flinch with that and say, no, it was. Like, I was trying. I did love you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1020.97003", "endTime": "1042.9299", "body": "And you're like, then if you stop and you say, wait a second, about those actions communicate my care, my nurture, and my safety for the relationship? You're like, no. And you might not give this answer, but the more adequate answer to her saying, did you ever love me? Did you ever care? You could look at her and say with compassion, my actions communicated the complete opposite." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1043.09", "endTime": "1047.01", "body": "Like, look at that. So maybe Caitlyn, you could, you could ask me that question. I'll just role role play for a second." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1047.575", "endTime": "1050.295", "body": "How could you have done this to me? Do you even love me?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1050.295", "endTime": "1070.4701", "body": "Everything that you just found out this week about the things I had lied about and the things I was doing when you weren't around, not a single ounce of that communicates love, that I care for you. I'm sure you feel a lot more beyond that. Like I'm almost crying and we're not even like, this isn't even like our conversation. This is as an example. That's the heart." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1070.4701", "endTime": "1075.645", "body": "It's like, you're not disagreeing with you. You're like, yeah, you're right. It was mean. Right. There's heart in it." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1075.645", "endTime": "1085.245", "body": "And you're like, well, how do I get we talk about this so much. So it's it's in one of the earlier episodes, but, like, you gotta wake up. Mhmm. Because her questions, they're so good. Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1085.5651", "endTime": "1100.36", "body": "Your wife's pain questions, her betrayal questions are so good. Her her her, why did these rhetorical questions of did you ever love me? At your core, you have to look at where the actions I was operating under love. And I actually came to this discovery. I actually hated Caitlyn." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1100.36", "endTime": "1113.0549", "body": "And they're like, well, that's kind of intense. It's like, well, I looked up a definition of hate and it was close. The definition of hate was closer to what I felt towards my wife than love. She was annoying to me. She made me feel angry." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1113.0549", "endTime": "1125.3099", "body": "I like, I didn't enjoy spending quality time with her. Tried to avoid her. The list goes on. It's like, I actually didn't feel the disdain and the resentment I felt towards Caitlyn towards any other person on the planet. And that was my wife." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1125.3099", "endTime": "1128.83", "body": "And so it's like this person I'm supposed to love. I actually like, no, I don't. I didn't enjoy you." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1128.83", "endTime": "1129.15", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1129.15", "endTime": "1144.49", "body": "And when we start to unravel and get radically honest like that, again, it's not thrown at your wife. It's like, woah, my coping mechanism to get through life was the addiction, the affair and making my wife, my enemy. So when she says, did you ever love me? There's actually a decent amount of truth to" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1144.49", "endTime": "1144.89", "body": "exactly" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1144.89", "endTime": "1161.815", "body": "your actions, your perspective, and your attitude towards her was not one filled with love. So instead of getting defensive and being like, why is she asking me these questions? Pause and actually look at how valid it's not from her insecurity, her pain shopping, any of these things is actually just like, Woah, valid question. Yep. No." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1161.815", "endTime": "1177.47", "body": "Over the last ten years, this is, this has all been a lie. You're like, well, if she leaves me, if I agree with her, the fact that she's sitting here asking me, she wants to be in this relationship. This is your opportunity to get in the boat that she's in. That's shaking and rocking and say, you know what? That wasn't love." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1178.75", "endTime": "1198.6051", "body": "I was living a lie. And I'm sure you have a lot more questions and I want to look at this because I do want to spend the rest of my life with you. I know that that's not guaranteed based off everything I've done, but at this current point, I'm going to look at all this. I want to see how nasty, how ugly, how selfish I want. And this isn't self deprecating." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1198.6051", "endTime": "1221.195", "body": "You can hear it in my voice. There's there's strength and power in me saying, I want to look at all of it because I know that you, this is just I'm just starting to understand what you've walked through. You have this conversation night after night after night until it turns into, did you ever love me from it goes into, I wish we would have started sooner. It still hurts like hell. And I love that you're willing to see me right now." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1221.355", "endTime": "1232.01", "body": "And that's how our conversation shifted. It was like Caitlyn was like, she could see that I wanted the healing and the love and the connection. And then I had been believing a lie. She's like, okay, he's not willing to partner with the lie. And the pain is still there." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1232.01", "endTime": "1249.105", "body": "And you keep talking about the pain and you keep inviting the conversation. And over time, it's not that time heals. Time in the pain, time in reality is what heals. So you have to face how ugly and how nasty the addiction was and how it impacted your wife. That's the only way that you can heal." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1249.105", "endTime": "1251.745", "body": "So her rhetorical questions are incredibly valid." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1251.745", "endTime": "1265.8", "body": "This is also not taking her questions and going into, oh, woe is me. Oh, she doesn't love me. Now I gotta get back into the good boy box, and so I'm gonna try to convince her to love me. Of course, I love you. Of course, I've always loved you." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1265.8", "endTime": "1278.355", "body": "Of course, it's not all just a waste. You know, these are common responses we hear that that men are giving. And it's like, do you see the difference between what Brandon role played out? Then if I would have said, how could you have done this to me? Do you even love me?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1278.355", "endTime": "1292.4299", "body": "And if he would have said, well, of course, I love you. Of course, that is like, that's so invalidating to what she's trying to express right now. That's you again making it about yourself really like, oh, I gotta get back into the good boy box. I gotta convince her to love me. I gotta convince her to move on." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1292.4299", "endTime": "1308.1951", "body": "I gotta convince her to stop asking me this question, to just stop feeling that and to stop saying that because really, I'm actually just uncomfortable. Right? That's just going, okay. You're trying to express your emotions over here and I'm so uncomfortable, so I'm just gonna make it about actually what I'm feeling, which is can we just get over with this? Right?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1308.1951", "endTime": "1328.095", "body": "So then I'll say something that sounds kind of validating, but it's really just dismissive and really actually just shutting down the conversation. And that looks like, well, of course, I loved you. Of course, it's not all just a waste. I mean, I know I slept with 13 people and made out with everybody and thought about everybody and looked at porn for fourteen years, but of course I love you, you know? It's like, woah, how invalidating?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1328.095", "endTime": "1344.51", "body": "Is it really that much more difficult to go, wow, of course you're in a lot of pain. Of course you don't feel like I love you. Look at everything I've done. Of course you feel like our entire marriage has been a lie. You just found out I've been lying to you our entire marriage." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1344.51", "endTime": "1357.875", "body": "That literally makes complete sense that you would feel that way. Do you see the differences there? Like one is opening up to go, I see you, I hear you, and I wanna see you more. The other one is going, please just stop talking about it. I'm so uncomfortable." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1358.1951", "endTime": "1373.37", "body": "I'm comfortable that you're uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable with this whole conversation. Only one of those is actually gonna get you traction in healing your marriage. You can't keep dismissing the conversation or taking it back to how you feel. You gotta go, wow, I wanna see how you feel even more." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1373.4501", "endTime": "1395.135", "body": "I wanna know how this is impacting you even more. I want to take radical ownership and take steps to heal so that I can comfort you, so that I can mend your wounds. Brandon always says this, if you were the one who caused the pain, you are the one that keep gets to come and bring the healing. Right? You get to come and apply the oil and the salve to the wounds." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1395.4099", "endTime": "1402.6099", "body": "Yeah. That's done with your body language. That's done with your words. That's done with your actions. That's done with how you show up in these moments." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1402.85", "endTime": "1420.335", "body": "Her rhetorical questions are not an opportunity to get offensive. I have this written down later to say and I'll say it here now, if you're getting defensive, that's because you're still defending something you're hiding. Yeah. Anytime someone gets defensive, they're defending something that they're hiding. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1420.335", "endTime": "1433.47", "body": "So if you're getting defensive when she's saying, do you even love me? It's probably because you need to go and look at what else you need to bring to the table. What other secrets you've still got. Right? What is it that you're defending and protecting?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1433.63", "endTime": "1440.075", "body": "You need to bring that into the light because her pain is your opportunity to heal together." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1440.075", "endTime": "1463.465", "body": "And in these questions, before we dive into why the details matter, she's asking questions maybe about the details of the affair of the addiction. And you're like, well, I've already answered this. Do you know why she asked questions again? Because sometimes your answers change and at a subconscious level, she's trying to find out if there is validity to your story. So you don't, you don't need to be afraid of getting the answer." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1463.465", "endTime": "1483.5701", "body": "Right. One of the things that even shocked me was sometimes my own answers would change. And I was like, woah, I'm lying to myself right now. Or I'm just saying the first thing that comes out of my mouth. And so we, we, we punish women for asking questions when really it was Caitlyn's questions and tenacity and relentless pursuit of the truth again, to unlock my freedom." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1483.5701", "endTime": "1501.0651", "body": "Her asking the same question, six different times, the first five times, it sounded like I got the question right. And I was a good boy six times. Oh, so you're defining this as this. Oh, so you are looking at women like this way. Oh, so you do go on social media and see these things, but these five other ways I asked that you've said no, no, no, no, no." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1501.0651", "endTime": "1511.34", "body": "And the sixth way you're saying yes, Your wife's very smart. She doesn't like being messed with. She doesn't like being manipulated. And so if she has questions and if you have nothing to hide. Answer them." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1511.34", "endTime": "1511.8999", "body": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1512.2999", "endTime": "1528.1849", "body": "And when your wife asks you a question about a detail and you are fuzzy on it, or you've noticed yourself shut down, pause. You're allotted a five second pause. Now it's not a pause to come up with a BS story. Right. It's a pause to say, okay, she just asked me this question." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1528.38", "endTime": "1538.9401", "body": "Okay. I'm going to sit up. Yeah. I, I got on my phone to do that stuff. We've talked about when you, when she's like, how, when did you even do this?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1538.9401", "endTime": "1549.155", "body": "And maybe you've answered the question. You're like, well, during these years, I did it in the bathroom. Once you fell asleep. And we had these conversations, like, when were you doing these things? I'm I was around you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1549.155", "endTime": "1557.155", "body": "It's like Right. I waited until I heard you falling falling asleep and not moving anymore, and I picked up my phone. Oh, that's so cruel. Like, well, what about this? If this happened, you slow down." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1557.155", "endTime": "1573.675", "body": "You don't just give the first answer like, okay. Well, here's what I did if I felt you moving. Put my phone down really fast. Because what she's what she's experiencing right now when she finds out about the betrayal is her whole world just blew up into a thousand pieces. So she is trying to make sense of, okay, where does this go in the equation?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1573.675", "endTime": "1577.515", "body": "Okay. I know you were doing this, but when? Mhmm. How? With who?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1577.515", "endTime": "1593.21", "body": "Like, or what about like, I had sex with you on wait. You you went to porn on our anniversary. We had sex on our anniversary. You're like, yeah, actually I I did go to porn. Like, I already opened up my body to you like and so you start he's trying to make sense of, okay, when did these things take place?" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1593.21", "endTime": "1602.165", "body": "At what frequency? Why did they happen? How did they happen? And you know, ultimately what she wants to know, will it happen again? We have to answer all those questions." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1602.165", "endTime": "1618.89", "body": "So the details do matter. And when we shut down her questions for the details, because we want to give one big brushstroke that says, no, I already told you. You're insecure. Now we're going to help you heal. We're going get you on some medication and go put you on your little floaty out there and keep you safe." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1619.37", "endTime": "1634.0549", "body": "Give your wife a freaking megaphone and let her shout from the rooftops what her soul is crying out to know. Cause what you might find out is that she's your Oracle. She can see, see through your crap and you want her to see through your crap and you want to become a man that's not full of crap." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1634.855", "endTime": "1635.095", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1635.095", "endTime": "1645.71", "body": "instead of shutting down the questions about the details, be like, oh, heck yes. Let's get into it. I'm ready. That attitude shows her shows yourself. There's nothing to hide from yourself." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1645.79", "endTime": "1650.5901", "body": "That's a man that wants to heal. That's a woman that wants to heal. Like, let's go. You have more questions. I'm ready." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1650.5901", "endTime": "1659.715", "body": "And then you, instead of her having to just ask you a question, you say, I've got, here's the things I've been exploring about myself today. She's like, cool. I got a day off. I don't have to pull it out of him. He's ready to do the work." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1659.715", "endTime": "1663.7949", "body": "And that's that's when you really know things are getting getting good on the healing healing path." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1663.7949", "endTime": "1681.49", "body": "Yeah. This is the second category of questions that I was talking about, which is the questions of the details of your affair or your addiction or the areas you've been lying and hiding. Right? And this is probably what all of your counselors have told you to absolutely never get into. And again, I I say it every single time." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1681.49", "endTime": "1690.5149", "body": "I'm like, I don't even understand that concept. This is just honesty. Right? So, like, I'll say it till I'm blue in the face. This is not like a profound, oh my gosh." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1690.5149", "endTime": "1695.3949", "body": "This is so scary. I'm recommending something dangerous to you. No. I'm recommending honesty. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1695.3949", "endTime": "1704.9999", "body": "Is it painful? Yeah. Because you've been lying and hiding, and you have a bag full of secrets like that ain't gonna feel good. Is the marriage and the life you have right now feeling good? No." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1705.0", "endTime": "1727.34", "body": "So let's rip open the bags and let's create a life that feels good, right? So the second category of questions your wife, your the betrayed spouse is going to ask is detailed questions, right? A question that we get asked often is, is there any questions that I should not answer? Is there any conversation we should not have? Is there like territory we should not get into?" }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1727.3401", "endTime": "1735.5", "body": "Something she shouldn't be allowed to ask? Something I should not be allowed to answer? And the question is no. Everything gets answered. Everything gets looked at." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1735.5", "endTime": "1748.905", "body": "You guys, it's honesty. How many times can I say it's radical honesty? If I were to tell you like, yeah, don't let her ask you those questions, it's like, what am I promoting and condoning then? Dishonesty. I'm promoting and condoning that you're allowed to keep some dirty secrets." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1748.905", "endTime": "1765.67", "body": "Why would I ever promote and condone that? Only if I had dirty secrets that I was keeping and I don't want to promote that to you, because that would mean that I would have to go clean up my mess. How can we sit here and promote that you ideally would live a life of radical odyssey? Because we have chosen that within our marriage. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1765.67", "endTime": "1800.755", "body": "Because we are walking and living in that. And it's not burdensome, you guys. It's actually so freaking good and free that I could sit here on this couch seven years later after banging my head on the ground asking my husband, how could you have done this to me? I can sit on the couch seven years later and go, it was so worth it. Every question I asked and every question he answered, every secret that we dug out, every rock we turned over, everything we got out because the life we live is so good and you can't make it up." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1800.835", "endTime": "1822.8099", "body": "That's why thousands of you don't give a crap that we don't have degrees. I don't care that I don't have a degree because I didn't hit my head on the ground and ask a million questions and dig and dig and dig till we created this so I could have a podcast. I did this for my four children, my fifth on the way, and for the life we get to live. This podcast is just a cherry on the top. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1822.8099", "endTime": "1849.15", "body": "Because this message is so good, and I'm tired of hearing all of these people with all these big titles and big names in big stages and lights condoning dishonesty, which is crippling lives, crippling marriages. It's so profoundly simple. It's literally honesty. So there is no question she's gonna ask that you don't answer. There is no topic you don't touch on." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1849.15", "endTime": "1864.9149", "body": "And I'm not talking about on your social media. I'm not talking about with your your family. I'm talking about with the one you united your soul with. I'm talking about your spouse. There is nothing that you do not explore together." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1864.9149", "endTime": "1872.4199", "body": "You look into the bag of all of your secrets and you get it all out. And when she asks you a question, you go, thank you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1872.4199", "endTime": "1872.9799", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1873.22", "endTime": "1882.235", "body": "Thank you for asking that. I wanna look into that. And people, the first thing they'll say is, what if I don't know the answer? Slow down. Like Brandon said, you do know the answer." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1882.235", "endTime": "1894.66", "body": "It might not be there right away because you've been lying and hiding for a long And you can even say, Brandon used to say this all the time. Listen to the two differences here. Brandon, I'm asking you a question, right? Well, I don't know the answer to that. That was so long ago." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1894.66", "endTime": "1911.455", "body": "How am I supposed to remember? It happened so many times. There's no way I could give you the details to that. You see the difference between that and wow, I've lied to you for a lot of years and it's gonna take me a minute to remember that. And I'm gonna journal until I remember it, because I wanna see clearly, and I wanna heal with you." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1911.455", "endTime": "1917.455", "body": "And that's what Brandon used to do all the time, like, I can't remember right now, and I'm not gonna stop until I do." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "1917.455", "endTime": "1917.9349", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1917.9349", "endTime": "1928.73", "body": "Do you see the difference? Why was he able to give me that response? Because he was no longer defending his addiction and his lying and his secrets. If you have the response that goes, well, I don't remember. I can't remember that." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1928.73", "endTime": "1934.17", "body": "How dare you ask me that? Didn't we already go over this? It's because you're still lying and defending something. Yeah. You're still hiding something." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1934.385", "endTime": "1942.705", "body": "K? The second you can move into, I wanna see it. I wanna journal. I wanna get radically clear. I wanna bring this to you." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1942.705", "endTime": "1963.095", "body": "I don't see it right now. And Brandon didn't say that to me like, don't use this as an excuse to always go, yeah, sweetie, I wanna see it. I'm gonna go journal, and then never freaking bring it up. Like, Brandon would say that and he would go journal and then he would go, yep, now I remember. Now I see it Your subconscious will bring everything back up to you that you have chosen to forget if you allow it to." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1963.095", "endTime": "1984.19", "body": "How do I know this? I watched this happen to my husband. When he said, okay, subconscious mind, show me everything I've been storing in here because I wanna go through it with the four r's and I wanna replace all of this and rewire my brain. His mind went, okay, I'll purge this all out. And he began to remember things he had done, experienced, seen from ten years ago that he would have never remembered." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "1984.19", "endTime": "2005.745", "body": "Right? Your subconscious mind, if given permission, which you have to believe in a vision for what you're creating and remove the fear and the shame, open up into curiosity and go, yep, I wanna see it, your subconscious mind will bring that all up. So if you're afraid of her questions because you don't think you know the answer, you don't have to run and hide. You can go, woah, subconscious mind, bring up the truth to me. Bring up the awareness." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "2006.16", "endTime": "2011.52", "body": "I'm gonna journal until I see it. Yeah. I'm gonna keep going until I get clear. I'm not scared of your questions. Right." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "2011.52", "endTime": "2017.2001", "body": "Keep asking me questions. Absolutely. Keep asking me for details because I wanna see it and I wanna heal with you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2017.2001", "endTime": "2049.13", "body": "And one of the biggest things that you can do to get yourself out of defense mode when your wife is talking with you is recognizing that even if she's being accusatory and attacking and there's a lot of emotion behind it, is you can use your bodyguard, Mr. Pain. And what I what I've told men is basically when she's speaking from her pain, as she has every right to do, imagine you have a bodyguard that's actually taking those hits. You are not needing to absorb these things, even if she calls you names that are probably very accurate names. You're not like, oh, she hates me." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2049.165", "endTime": "2066.18", "body": "Oh, she's hurting me. Oh, I must defend myself because again, we're, we are anti domestic violence unless your wife is hitting you. Well, you guys need to create the space and the safety so that there's no, we don't need to hit anybody. Just like calm the flip down, go on a walk guys. She's actually not threatening to you." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2066.18", "endTime": "2088.4148", "body": "She's only an emotional threat, which means that you see her as a threat emotionally to you because you don't recognize that. Wait a second. My wife's in so much pain that she has to talk to me this way because I've damaged her. And she's she's in such turmoil that she speaks to me like this. You're in no place like I used to get so freaked out because Caitlyn's like so upset." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2088.4148", "endTime": "2092.32", "body": "And I'm like, wait, this has nothing to do about me. Even though I was the one that hurt her, like, this is her pain." }, { "speaker": "Caitlyn", "startTime": "2092.32", "endTime": "2092.72", "body": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2092.72", "endTime": "2107.655", "body": "So instead of trying to dodge her attacks so that they don't get you, you have a bodyguard, mister Pain. He'll take all the all the hits so that you can, like, let let yourself realize, okay, pain is speaking. And it's not like, oh, she's in pain. This is her pain. So, it's not real." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2107.655", "endTime": "2134.895", "body": "It's like, no, it's so real that you don't have to be afraid. Her pain is so real, so raw, so valid that you don't need to try to deflect it, defend it or minimize it because it's hers. So when she has questions that are rooted in her insecurity, her pain, her wisdom, her intuition, whatever it's rooted in, it does not matter. What matters is it's actually a gift to your relationship. When your wife has questions, don't shut them down." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2134.895", "endTime": "2159.04", "body": "Because if you answer them with curiosity, if you explore them with honesty, it will create connection in your relationship every time. Because if you have nothing to hide and nothing to defend from the past, then it's only going to affirm to her that you guys are healing, that you care about her heart, that you're doing the work to heal. You can't lose when your wife has a question about the betrayal. So stop trying to shut them down. Stop trying to make it disappear." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2159.04", "endTime": "2181.6501", "body": "Get curious and see the questions your wife has as a gift. Even if it's meant you've had to find four different counselors, four different programs that I got some questions. When there's a man that's afraid to answer your wife's question, I don't like a counselor or pastor. I watched men shaking their boots around Caitlyn because they had their own shadows that they were hiding behind. They had their own stuff they didn't want to acknowledge." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2181.6501", "endTime": "2199.305", "body": "So when Caitlyn's like, hey, have a clear question. They'd like, you can't ask that here because that would mean I'd have to get honest with my wife. And I watched grown men shaking their boots and Caitlyn wasn't very threatening. She just was really honest and really clear. And it was that like a hot knife through butter that cut through the BS and that brought healing into my life." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2199.865", "endTime": "2233.735", "body": "And it's brought healing into so many of your lives. So I I I w this wasn't in our notes, but I just wanted to honor you, babe, for the questions you are willing to ask, even though they made you look controlling codependent, unreasonable, overbearing, the questions you asked paved a path for me to, to ask myself the same questions and to not settle for, for a lesser relationship. And these are questions you asked yourself. Standards you live by our whole marriage. So thank you for asking the questions that so many men and women are asking." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2233.735", "endTime": "2250.255", "body": "Can we be free? Can we experience love? And the answer is yes, you guys. So follow, follow in the footsteps of a brave woman and, I like to consider myself a courageous man to ask the hard questions, to not shy away from them. And if they're coming from a betrayed wife, validate them." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2250.895", "endTime": "2284.115", "body": "If you're a couple that needs support right now, you can, apply for a spot inside of our couples program, our Grounded Union program. It's in the show notes below this. And if you guys want to help spread awareness on the show of the show, you can take a screenshot of your review on apple and send it to supportgroundedunion dot com and our team as a gift, we'll send you an unreleased podcast episode on intimacy after betrayal. Because of your support for the show, we're often in the top 20 podcasts in The United States. So thank you so much for sharing this podcast and Facebook groups, church groups, community groups with each other." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2284.355", "endTime": "2295.57", "body": "It means the world to us. So if you haven't left a review, we read them. We celebrate them, even the funny ones. But if you've been impacted by the show, please let us know. And by leaving a review, it helps us reach more couples." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2295.6501", "endTime": "2315.505", "body": "And, we look forward to seeing you next week. Oh, and I always leave it as a, as a cliff note. I did write a book, seven steps to save your marriage. You can go to sevenstepsbook.com to pre order a copy. If you pre order, before it's released, you can get the audio book read by myself and a companion digital workbook to walk through the seven steps to save your marriage." }, { "speaker": "Brandon", "startTime": "2316.15", "endTime": "2330.0698", "body": "Really proud of that book. It took me two years to write. I thought it was going take me two months ended up taking two years and, really looking forward to sharing that with the community here. So 7stepsbook.com go get your copy and, look forward to releasing it to the public. We'll see you guys next week." } ] }