Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Red Dragon is over. Remarkable boy, I do admire your courage.
Trailer: I think I'll eat your heart. Dear doctor, I have admired you for years. I wanted to tell you I'm delighted that you've taken an interest in me. I don't believe you're telling who I am. Besides, the important thing is what I am, becoming.
I have some things I love to show you. Until then, I remain your most avid fan.
Andy Nelson: Two
Trailer: families killed a month apart in their homes. These attacks were highly organized. The victims carefully chosen. This one is gonna go on and on.
Trailer: That's the same atrocious aftershave you wore in court.
Trailer: I need your advice, doctor Lecter.
Trailer: If you recall, Will, our last collaboration ended rather missily. How is young Josh and the lovely Molly? Molly? They're always in my thoughts, you know.
Pete Wright: So it's true the Lector's actually helping with your investigation. We may have a little over three weeks before this freak does it again.
Trailer: I might not have time.
Trailer: I do. I have oodles. You wanna know how he's choosing them, don't you? This is a very shy boy, Will. I know what it's like to have people always thinking that you're different.
He is refining his methods. He is evolving.
Andy Nelson: What am I doing here?
Trailer: No one will ever be safe around you, Will.
Pete Wright: A note hidden in Lecter's cell.
Trailer: The killer wants Lecter to answer him through the personal columns.
Pete Wright: Lecter gave me your address.
Trailer: Hi. I'm a friend of your father's. Open your eyes. No. I am the dragon.
Give me what I need. Before me, you tremble. I'll call you if I think of anything else. Would you perhaps like to leave me your home number?
Pete Wright: Okay. Here it is, Andy. Red Dragon, remake of Manhunter, prequel to the the other two movies we've seen with Anthony Hopkins. This movie, Andy, if you just look at it, just stop. Back away from the screen.
Just look at it on paper and get rid of everything you've watched and tell me this movie should not have been an absolute slam dunk.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose so. I I I think that there are enough elements there that it could have it could have worked.
Pete Wright: It could have worked. It should have worked. It should have worked. We've got Hopkins back in the in the role that he in the the position in which the character has works very, very well. We've got a great tight thriller of mystery.
We've got Ralph Fiennes. We've got Ed Norton. We've got we've got resolution of the actual capture of Lecter and that story that we did not get played out in Manhunter. And I think the intention of the movie functionally should have been great. And why wasn't I blown away by this movie?
Andy Nelson: That is really the question when you watch this one. I mean, it's insane. I mean, you mentioned some great cast, Anthony Hopkins, Edward Norton, Ralph Fiennes, but then you have Harvey Keitel, Emily Watson, Mary Louise Parker, Philip Seymour Hoffman. I know. Anthony Heald, Frankie Faison are both back.
Lalo Schifrin is playing the conductor, which cracked me up. And then Ellen Burstein as the voice of grandma. I think it's completely uncredited her role. So but yeah. I'm like, why why did Ellen Burstein agree to do this little tiny cameo of just her voice of grandma?
Frank Whaley is in here. It's it's a great great cast of people that somehow just really seems to have been let down in a large capacity. And it's interesting because, you know, you're bringing a lot of elements back. Like Ted Talley is back to work on the screenplay, who had written who had adapted Harris's novel Silence of Lambs, didn't adapt Hannibal, and that was probably for the best in his case. But he did take this one on as a challenge.
And okay. And and and to the point where some of the actors weren't even going to sign on to do this until they heard Tatali was actually adapting the novel. So it makes you wonder what are the elements that lead this to end up being lesser? And I have ideas.
Pete Wright: I I am eager to hear them because this movie just sort of mystifies me. Like, I'm I'm watching it. Everything on screen seems like I should I should love it, and it does not sparkle. It just it it for some strange reason, it does not sparkle. I wonder if you know, is that because we're taking Hannibal Lecter, a character who's the last film asked the question, can Hannibal Lecter serve as a central figure in in a film?
And I propose the answer is yes. That doesn't make the movie great, but I do like Lecter. And then we take him and we relegate him back to this, this old form. It's a practiced form. It should be great.
Is it that there's no charisma between Ed Norton and and Hopkins? Is it missing between Keitel and Norton? Is is Norton underplaying here? I I don't get it.
Andy Nelson: I guess I don't end up walking out having a problem with Norton. I I feel like for me, there are two elements that I feel I end up struggling with in the, way that this film is put together. The first is the added elements of more time with Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter. Now I love the opening. I think that's a great element.
We actually get to see the relationship that Graham and Lecter have. We get to understand the way that they had worked together, kind of developed this relationship, and then have Graham actually go through the process of catching Lecter. And and the reason that he ends up kind of becoming that broken agent that we saw at the beginning of Manhunter and we see here. But we actually get to really understand that, and I really appreciate having that element here. But then it is a lot of added scenes.
Now I I say that comparing Manhunter to this. Again, I haven't read Red Dragon, so I can't specifically call out, like, maybe there maybe Will Graham does have this many chats with Lecter in the book. I don't really know. But it felt like there were so many extra scenes of Graham just saying, you know what? I gotta go back and I gotta sit down with Lecter again just to have Anthony Hopkins, just to have reason for casting Anthony Hopkins again as Lecter.
It just felt like we want him back to play Lecter, and we're just gonna add all these extra scenes in here. It just felt like too many times that he had to go back and sit down with Lecter. Like, it just it took away kind of some of his agency as an actual agent. Now, I suppose you could argue, and I do have this point also that one of my problems with Manhunter is there was a lot of will William Peterson sitting around by himself, talking to himself, working things out. You could say, now he's just kind of working it out, but with Lecter.
But we also have a lot of scenes where Jack Crawford is randomly just in the room and it's just like, okay, so they're doing this just so he has somebody to bounce things off of, you know? Yeah. Anyway, that's one of my issues is Anthony Hopkins, not Anthony Hopkins, just too many scenes that feel tacked on just to have Lecter in the movie more.
Pete Wright: My I my memory of the book is not, terrific. It's been many, many years. But one of the things that that strikes me that I don't think we can we can have this conversation without just saying out loud, the book was written before silence of the lambs, and they're they're making the movie as a prequel. And I feel like some of the themes are possibly too repetitive in remaking this movie. I don't know why they remade the movie.
I don't know, I don't know if it was just like a here's a we just have Hopkins, and we're gonna do something else with him. But coming off of silence of the lambs in particular, noting the Hannibal sort of break, now reintroducing a book that comes off as a prequel is sort of empty calories. Like, I've I've been there already. I know how that relationship between, Lecter and and the agent are supposed is supposed to play out. So that that might be some of my exhaustion.
Andy Nelson: There is an element of rehash for sure just because Harris's stories are so similar. Like, the just the the the actual structure of each of the books, the Red Dragon and the Silence of the Lambs, follows a very similar pattern. And that, I think, is is hard to escape regardless of where you run into it. Now, I will say, I don't have anything that speaks to this, but my hunch is the vast majority of Americans probably haven't seen Manhunter. Manhunter underperformed at the box office.
It doesn't have a direct connection. It like we talked about in silence. Silence wasn't made as a sequel. It was made as a standalone movie, and then they made those other movies. This, for a lot of people, might be the only experience they have with Red Dragon.
Pete Wright: Right. And it's much more explicit about its tie in to the Anthony Hopkins Lecter verse. Right? With the Exactly. The tie in at the end of the movie to Clarisse coming to visit.
So
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, and it also just it it feels very much like we're like, it's the same team. It's the same people. Everything just feels like they wanted to create something that actually felt cohesive, you know. And so I don't have as much a problem of them deciding to remake it just for those reasons, especially because Anthony Hopkins, like we talked about last time, he seems to enjoy playing Lecter.
One more chance. Sure. Why not? Get him back into the into the act, performing the character. Yeah.
It's just one of those things where it it just didn't feel like it needed to be as much. My second point is this. I don't think Brett Ratner is a good director. I think Brett Ratner is a very safe sort of filmmaker. I think he can just put stuff up on the screen, but I don't necessarily think that there's any sense of style or creativity.
Like, he's got the same screenwriter as Silence of the Lambs. He has the same DP as Manhunter. Dante Spanati came back to shoot this. Nothing about this seemed, like, crafted in any exciting way. And I think that's what is so weird about this film is it just feels like TV direction.
Like, it's just he's here to just get the story on screen. There's nothing crafted about it. Like, we go back to this, essentially, the same set where we first see Lecter in The Silence of the Lambs, where we're introduced in that that creepy, the basement of the Baltimore hospital that, that he's in. Right? Mhmm.
Jonathan Demi and Tako Fujimoto, his cinematographer, crafted, plus sound design, everything else, like, crafted a magnificent journey for Starling to kind of go down into the bowels of this place and meet Lecter. The way that they consistently shot, but through the glass of of Lecter and Starling made for an exciting, tense feeling between the two of them. By the time we get Edward Norton down there, I just feel like, okay. For some reason, this isn't creative. This isn't gripping.
This isn't scary. This isn't thrilling. Like, it just it just feels kind of flat. And, I mean, I'm not saying there aren't some great moments throughout this film. I think that he does manage to capture some pretty exciting things here.
But largely, it just is filmmaking that feels very rote. He's just doing what the producers want him to do. Like, it just feels like every choice is a safe choice.
Pete Wright: I'm just sitting here scrolling his credits, and I haven't seen I mean, he's he's made more movies than I have. Right? Like, as a director, producer, he's doing fine. He's made a lot of music videos. Boy, he and Mariah Carey are tight.
The movies that I think of when I think of him like, the movie I think of when I think of him is Rush Hour, and I enjoy that movie. I enjoy the sequels less so, but I don't hate them. I think they're funny movies, and he makes good use of those big, big, big personalities that do a lot of driving for those movies. Right? Just looking at his collection, there are no other movies that stand out to me as quintessential Brett Ratner movies that I love.
None none of them. So I look at that and I think, okay. What is it that what is it about Brett Ratner, you know, and his background in sort of action comedy and music that applies to this movie? And, you know, does does that background help him make this movie? Does it hurt him?
I think the for me, the answer is probably hurt him. He ends up making a movie that feels like the straight man to a comic that isn't that never shows up. It it just the movie never shows up.
Andy Nelson: No. It never does. It always just feels like I said, it just feels like what Dino De Laurentiis wanted. Like, yes, just get it on the screen, and you will just tell the story. Like, there's just especially, I mean, it's you know, I will say they're hard shoes to fill.
He's following Huge. Michael Mann. He's following Jonathan Demi. He's following Ridley Scott. Some pretty big names of, people who have made some incredible films.
But again, I just I I struggle to understand how you get Dante Spanati, the same cinematographer from Manhunter, on board to film this. And it just looks like a TV movie. Like, nothing about this is interesting. Dollarhide's house, his creepy grandma, Dollarhide's, whatever whatever it was, like the home for the whatever children. That place should have allowed for some pretty creepy creative cinematography.
Nothing happens, you know, just nothing happens. And and I'm not saying it's a bad movie. Like, I actually don't dislike this film, but it just ends up feeling like safe Hollywood cookie cutter storytelling, and it ends up being like, okay. Sadly, kind of forgettable.
Pete Wright: Was was there anything that scared you? I mean, is there anything that that felt threatening?
Andy Nelson: I mean, nothing really felt I I don't know if threatening, but I genuinely like the performances, and I think so much what of what I like boils down to how the performances play together on screen. Philip Seymour Hoffman and Ray Fiennes, like, pairing on screen works incredibly well for me. Like, I actually really like Ray Finds as Dollarhide. I think that he great. My wife thought Ray Finds was too handsome as Dollarhide.
But for me, Ray Finds, like, just embodies what I wanted to see. Now, is it because we're also getting more of his backstory? Like, we get that sense of, again, why is Ellen Burstin coming in to do an uncredited voice over as Dollarhide's grandma? I don't know. But still, that relationship was fascinating to me.
Everything about that character worked so much better for me. And then the way that he plays off Ray Fine or, off Philip Seymour Hoffman when he captures him, like that sequence is exciting. I I really like their relationship. I actually really enjoy his relationship with Reba, Emily Watson's character. Like, that worked so much more for me.
Because again, they're given some more meat. I think all of this, I give credit to Ted Talley for bringing up more of those little character beats that we get with the characters in this that we didn't necessarily get in in Manhunter. I still like Manhunter. It's a great film, but I just like that we're getting a little more meat with some of these characters that I just didn't feel like we necessarily got as much of in that film. And so did it scare me?
No. But I like the way that these characters are behaving with one another.
Pete Wright: It what's strange is that in in terms of just general intensity, the movie does not live up to either of the Hopkins verse Hopkins Lecter verse films. I think it there is no scene in this movie that lives up to eating one's own brain that that is just horrifying.
Andy Nelson: But is is that a script thing, though?
Pete Wright: Maybe. No. It may be.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Maybe it's a
Pete Wright: script thing. There is no scene that lives up to the intensity of the final sequence of silence of the lambs with the night vision glasses. Doesn't live live up
Andy Nelson: to Nothing in this franchise lives
Pete Wright: up to that. That's an absolutely good point. And so, you know, I don't know. I I found myself wish casting this movie that they hadn't like, I like Philip Seymour Hoffman as Lounge, but Lounge is kind of a disposable character. And Philip Seymour Hoffman is anything but disposable as a performer, and I kept thinking, god.
Why wasn't he dollar hide? Like, why didn't we get a Hoffman dollar hide? That would have been a hell of a movie. Hell of a movie.
Andy Nelson: So does that mean you didn't like Ray Fines as dollar hide?
Pete Wright: No. I like Ray Fines just great. I think Ray Fines was great, but I felt like he was, again, I think to your point, maybe a little too handsome. Right?
Andy Nelson: No. To my wife's point, I didn't think that.
Pete Wright: Oh, to your wife's point. No. I like your wife. Probably better than you most the time. So No.
I I can kinda see that. Like, mostly, I just I you know? Who are kidding? I miss Philip Seymour Hoffman.
Andy Nelson: So I know. I know.
Pete Wright: You know, it's it's hard not to see that. So, anyway, I I think there are there are moves to be made on this particular chessboard of a movie, and I don't know that any any of these things ever came together to make a good match.
Andy Nelson: One of the other elements that we get here is a change to the ending. Now I my understanding is this is actually closer to the ending of the book, where, you know, after Francis has kidnapped Reba, taken her to his place, is trying to go through this thing where this kind of, like, the red dragon thing that is in his head that is, like, the thing that he's working for becoming against all of these things, wants him to kill Reba. He can't do it. He fakes killing himself, and he uses Frank Whaley's body, whom he had already killed, as the perfect way to get out of this situation. He acts like he kills himself, but really just, you know, shoots Frank Whaley's dead body again and then escapes.
Then he goes and he shows up at Will's house in Florida and goes to take on Will and, his wife, Mary Louise Parker, and their young kid. Now I liked actually having this ending. You know, one of my struggles with Manhunter, as much as I like that, is I just think it's so dumb the way that Will comes leaping through the glass, and then that ending just is very quick and resolves too fast for my taste. This actually gave us a little bit more of an ending, especially because we already knew that, Will's wife was unhappy with him returning. And now, here we have this threat directly confronting her, their son, and Molly is the one who in the end has to actually put the final bullets into dollar high's body.
How does all of that play for you?
Pete Wright: I feel like by the time we get there, we're in some of the the in the space of thriller and horror territory. It's some of the material that gives me the most anxiety. It's like home invasion stuff. And so, it's it's one of the reasons that I think this this story works so well. It's the you know, we're, we're watching through the windows.
We're coming into the house. You know, we're the the safest spaces in our lives are, it turns out, quite permeable. And so I actually think the end of the the end of the movie is pretty intense and thrilling, and I like it. I like the fact that Molly pulls the trigger. I think that exchange, you know, those beats work for me.
They work for me.
Andy Nelson: I like this ending also. I think it plays well. Again, could it have been crafted in a more interesting and exciting way? Yeah. I mean, I think it it definitely could have.
Pete Wright: But there's no savior moment like there is in Manhunter that that turned off both of us, like the heroic savior through the plate glass doesn't play. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. You know, I think that there's an interesting psychological element that you end up getting here because Will, by this point, has read Dollarhide's journal and understands his psychology of what had gone on with him as a youth with his grandmother and really uses that to his advantage to save his son as, you know, in a pretty horrific way. Like, I imagine even though he can tell his son, I did it to save you, I imagine that his kid is gonna still have nightmares about what dad was saying to him because it's pretty terrible. It's like it's it works, but it's also kind of like scarring. One of those sorts of things.
You know?
Pete Wright: Yeah. I mean, it it's one of those. It's like a Peter Pan moment. Like, did you hear that just now, son? A therapist just graduated grad school, and they're going to be a future millionaire.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now it's there are a lot of interesting things going on with this film, but I just feel like I attribute that to Thomas Harris's original novel and then to Ted Talley's adaptation. Now, is Ted Talley you know, is he responsible for signing on to do this knowing that Brett Radner was on board?
You know, I I think that they that he knew the people who were gonna be involved, but saw an opportunity to to do something great, you know. And and I think I think there is an opportunity for him to try to craft something a little more meaningful. I just I I feel like it's probably unfortunate that in the process of doing that, I think he's got the opportunity to do some great things, like give us that opening with Graham capturing Lecter, but also being forced to do the things that the producers are wanting. Like, we want more Lecter in the film. More opportunity for Will to sit down with Lecter.
Pete Wright: I think it's interesting that you bring that up, and I think there there's a a well I would like to plumb with you because, and it's it's not around Lecter. It's around Graham. One of the things that we talked about in in Manhunter was the sort of theme of empathy versus madness. Right? And the fact that Graham puts himself in this position because his superpower is being able to empathically chain his way into the minds of the serial of serial killers.
And he's also kind of a super cop. How do we feel about that theme playing out through this character? Is it a believable thing that he would need to have this relationship with Lecter to to do the job? I'm curious your thoughts on how Norton is directed to play the same sort of thematic journey of good versus evil, empathy versus madness. Do you get the same intention out of this portrayal?
Does it does it play the same notes for you?
Andy Nelson: I think it does. I do feel like we're given I don't know if they ever worked completely for me, but we're given flashes as he's trying to get into the head of the killer, where the directorial choice was to, like, flash to things that were likely in his head as he was getting closer to being in that place where the killer was thinking. I don't know. It was a little it was a little sloppy in the in its execution, and it ended up ended up being maybe a little too on the nose with trying to kind of craft that. But I do think at least they were trying to figure out how can we how can we make that work a little more.
It takes away from Norton, actually, the performative side of Norton doing it because it's all in the editing and in flash cuts and things like that. We don't actually get him working on the processing as much. And again, maybe that's why Edward Norton doesn't just stand out much as the as the as who we want to see as the lead of the film, you know?
Pete Wright: Yeah. And that's a real struggle because Edward Norton is such a cerebral actor. Right? Like, he has such a a breadth to work with that it it feels like they took away from him, to your point, so much opportunity to play that role of kind of losing himself in the the work of the job, the primal fearness. Like, I wanted Edward Norton primal fear.
I wanted to have a guy who was seriously walking that line between two parts of himself. And I I do I mean, there are actors who are capable of delivering a performance like that, and and Edward Norton is absolutely on that list. And they really neutered so much of that range by flashbacking him.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It makes me wonder because I've seen complaints about him as the as the lead here. And I love Edward Norton. I think he is a great actor. I enjoy watching his performances in so many things, and I can't help but feel like, again, Ratner just couldn't figure out how to direct that a cerebral performance, you know?
Yeah. So, yeah, that could be a big part of it. Going back to some of the kind of the additions to the film, the style of the film and everything. What do you think of the not so much the cinematography look? I mean, I've already expressed my disappoint disappointment in Dante's Spanotti not really being able to do anything creative here.
But just the production design because we're getting a pretty creepy house where Dollarhide lives. We're getting some interesting ideas like Hannibal Lecter's exercise room that we have.
Pete Wright: Okay. I love the exercise the exercise room.
Andy Nelson: You love the exercise room. Okay.
Pete Wright: It's because it's like my elementary school gym.
Andy Nelson: Did it have a chain from the ceiling that they would chain someone? Is was this like a dodgeball torture room?
Pete Wright: Sometimes the boys and girls are bad.
Andy Nelson: My god.
Pete Wright: It was
Andy Nelson: a terrible idea. Well, I think that there's an interesting case to be made of the production design working. Like, they do some interesting things. They find some great locations. I loved when we get into that last sequence in Graham's Florida house, when he and his son are up in that backroom and he's locked the door behind, so Francis can't get in.
He's ready to shoot him. But as as we look down that hallway, like, it has these fantastic, like, divisions or the way that the wall it's not just like a straight wall. It the wall kind of cuts in and out. So you end up getting these fantastic lines going down the hallway. Like, those moments, there were some places like that that were just beautiful and just fantastically designed.
I was very excited by some of the location choices that they had here.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And and, you know, I mean, because the the the disappointment is not in in the locations, not even going back into the Baltimore hospital, which is a fantastic location. The disappointment is sometimes they're used in such an anodyne way that and and such a sort of procedural way that that doesn't live up to its predecessors, right, in in that respect.
Andy Nelson: Absolutely. Absolutely. One scene we haven't talked about, and and this goes back. I you're just talking a little bit more about Dollarhide and his psychology. There is something going on with this idea of whatever the dragon is that's in his head that, you know, he's trying to kind of achieve this dragon status.
But also, it's like the young Francis Dollarhide kind of comes up against, especially after he meets Reba, who seems to be so nice and everything. He goes to the museum that houses the real William Blake red dragon drawing and eats it as a way to get back at it, to to show him who's boss. How does that play for you? And again, I don't know if it's in the book.
Pete Wright: Yeah. No. I I don't remember, but I have to tell you, like, now that we've watched all of these movies, I don't really understand and I guess that's the psychosis part. Maybe I'm not meant to understand. I don't understand what he's what he's becoming.
Like, I don't understand the the nature of ingesting the thing that which you believe you are becoming, as as part of his transformation. I don't know that I'm meant to. I don't know that that's mine to have. All we need to know is that the means to an end for dollar hide are that he has to kill people along the way, and that's what we're focusing on. The fact that he is he is becoming I I've never been able to get it through either of these movies into Dollarhide's head the way that I think Thomas Harris would like me to to be able to understand transformation this way.
Do you do you have insight on that?
Andy Nelson: Well, I I I think I ended up liking the that scene maybe more than you did because for if if anything, it actually got me in closer to his psychology of understanding, like, this person has, you know, kind of created this alternate version of himself. He's trying to become this red dragon, and there is this point where he, in order to, like, you know, compensate, actually eats the painting. And I actually find that to be really interesting. And one of those moments in a movie that you're like, this is so, like, such a strange decision to make. But I actually liked it, and Michael I I just looked.
It was actually in the novel. I wonder if Michael Mann chose to not include it because it was such a it can be seen as a stretch. It can be seen as something where you have really have to go pretty far to get to a point where somebody does something like that. But I liked the way that it helped me with his psychology. And again, this goes back to what Ted Talley did with the script.
I just felt like there was an interesting element to crafting a better understanding of who Dollarhide was, how broken he was, this element that he had kind of created and everything. I I think that they're on the right track here. You're right. Maybe it isn't going as maybe it's not as well defined as Thomas Harris wanted it to be or did in the book, but I think that there's a lot more here than we had before.
Pete Wright: Well, I mean, because one one of the things I know we get in the book is just a lot more childhood trauma stuff for Dollarhide. Right? That we get the implications of being born with a cleft palate, the fact that his family made him feel horrible, monstrous, totally unlovable, and that that probably gave him some dissociative identity issues that he he has two identities in one, and that he's transforming to be a a bigger, better himself, maybe. Right? I don't does does he actually envision that he's going to have wings and and horns and stuff?
I don't I don't know. But could it be a transition by way of supremely toxic masculinity? Like, he's the most alpha of all the alphas? Possibly. Right?
This this connection between sexuality and power and, you know, and that's what that's what actually makes him attracted and terrified of Reba, I think, because, you know, he's super attracted to her, and that sort of takes him down a peg emotionally. Right? He is he's less alpha because he finds himself liking her and wanting to give her space. And now he's he's more humanized than he would expect himself to be at this point on his transformation journey. So at this point, I I think I'm I'm spitting out some of the language of symbolism, and I don't know in this movie that I 100% buy it all the time.
And and maybe it's because this movie, as much as it's more of a dollar hide movie than Manhunter is, it's still not enough of a dollar hide movie that the book is a dollar hide book.
Andy Nelson: Well, yeah. Adaptations are always gonna be different beasts in as far as the way that they're, the stories play out. I I think in the in the scope of the psychology of a of a killer like the Tooth Fairy, yeah, I think there's gonna be some probably more that you're gonna be able to do in a book than than here. But I just I guess I'm just saying that I appreciated that they were trying, like that they tried to give us a little more. Now some can argue the way that Dollar Height is portrayed in Mann's film is more mysterious because we're not getting all of that.
We're just getting this creepy person who's working toward becoming this godlike being, who is still I mean, you do see some internal struggles and everything, especially as it comes to Reba. But I just felt like there was an interesting attempt here to kind of try to give us some more.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. And you can kinda get in both movies, I guess, the the dollar height approach demonstrates that that the dragon itself is not salvation. Right? Or or else he would be saved.
And, otherwise, it's just a, you know, just another mask for self loathing and, and a price to be paid. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting movie. It's I wish that it had been handled, with different, a different person at the helm. Because, again, going back to the point that we had at the beginning, it's like all of the pieces seem to be here to make something that could really stand out. Like, it just doesn't actually get there.
Pete Wright: It's it's kinda makes it hard to to do any sort of rating or review of this movie because it's a movie that relies on a vibe check. Right? Like, I just I just didn't feel it. I was not feeling it, you know, as as and and interestingly, this is I didn't have any transformational awareness from my sense memory of watching this movie the last time. It's the same experience.
Like, I didn't I didn't grow. The movie didn't change. It's the same movie I watched last time, and I was uninspired. That's actually kind of a rarity on this show for me. Like, usually, you know, I take a lot of years and watch a movie a second time for our conversation, and the movie is, comes off to me as appreciably different.
Not this one.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. Not this one. It felt very much the same. Like and again, I think it speaks to just the rather tepid direction where it just feels like, oh, yeah.
Like, yeah, I kind of forgot a lot of elements. There were things I remembered, like him eating the painting and and stuff like that. But largely, it's just something that I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
I remember it. And it'll probably drift from my mind again.
Pete Wright: Right. Right. Alright.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's it's a frustrating one, and especially because I I think well, I mean, we knew going in, Anthony Hopkins said he wasn't gonna come back and play Lecter again. This was, as far as he was concerned, the last time he would ever be Hannibal Lecter. And I actually like that he walked into this saying one of his goals was to reestablish that this guy is actually an evil serial killer because Hopkins felt audiences were starting to see him as a likable antihero, and he was rightfully a little concerned about that. And so I think you go into this knowing that we're not getting any more Anthony Hopkins.
Again, I think that speaks to why De Laurentiis pushed to do this so quickly after Hannibal because he knew already the box office would be there because Hannibal was a success at the box office. And he also knew that Anthony Hopkins was already pretty old. We gotta wrap it up with this guy because because you don't wanna wait. Although, it's interesting. I was actually thinking about this.
Had they actually waited and done this 2015 to now, they could have actually de aged Anthony Hopkins. Yes. How would that play? A de aged Anthony Hopkins doing the Irishman but with Lecter.
Pete Wright: Oh my god. That's such an awful image. Right? Like, that's an awful image. Because I actually think that Anthony Hopkins is an actor.
It's so interesting because he's he's sort of timeless across these three movies. Right? Like, he does not look that much older than he did in silence of the lambs in this movie. So the odds of, like, taking him at his age now, like, the father, and making that Anthony Hopkins try to look like pre silence of the lambs seems like just a nightmarescape, like an AI slop nightmarescape.
Andy Nelson: I I I think that it just boils down to the the general struggle with de aging largely. It always still looks a little digital. Like, I I just always go back to, like, when after The Irishman came out, there was that person who was doing their own versions of de aging on YouTube, showing that they could do a much better job than what Hollywood was doing, and they were much better than what Hollywood was doing. And I still feel like Hollywood hasn't quite figured that out. And it does make me wonder if it could have worked or if it would have like like even like the Irishman felt like an 80, 90 year old man trying to move like a 40 year old man.
And it just like the movements. That's that's the problem. It's like, couldn't buy that.
Pete Wright: You could tell his back really hurt.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. It just it's it's a struggle.
Pete Wright: So
Andy Nelson: Yeah. But that's in yeah. That would be interesting.
Pete Wright: Do you, read into at all the, the dip theory? That there is actually a a dip that you know, when Lecter was under sodium ammitol, they were trying to question him, and he gave a recipe for dip. Right? There's that line. Oh.
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah.
Pete Wright: So there are people out there who say that he that that was a that's a thing you can that had an actual recipe associated with it. Liver, a known lector favorite, sweetbreads of the thymus or pancreas, and a, make it into a smooth puree with herbs and wine reduction served with perhaps, you guessed it, some fava beans and a nice chianti.
Andy Nelson: Interesting. Interesting.
Pete Wright: Why do why do you do that, human beings? Can't you just let a line be a line? Stop circulating that kind of stuff.
Andy Nelson: Do you think Lecter was a fan of Aspects?
Pete Wright: Boy, he is a dandy in Aspect if I've ever seen one.
Andy Nelson: If there is somebody who I think would enjoy a good Aspic, I think it's
Pete Wright: like Hands down. Amazing.
Andy Nelson: Oh my goodness. My last little note, there since you could argue all of them actually, but really since Silence of the Lambs, we've talked about the endings that felt tacked on with with this series. And this ending, I abhor. Like, I just hate that it goes there because this is like, why do we need that to let us know, oh, Clarice is here. One, it starts in 1980, and then it flashes to several years later.
Not eleven years later, but several, which made me say, okay. So this is all taking place 8384, somewhere in the mid eighties. And then so are we getting a time jump? Is Silence of the Lambs now meant to take place seven years earlier? Like, it just it it's one of these endings that pisses me off.
It's like, we have Anthony Heald. We've got, you know, Anthony Hopkins. Let's do do this stupid tie in.
Pete Wright: Yes. And what you what you're missing is that Anthony Hill comes in and he says, there's a young person coming to see you, and it takes her seven years to get there.
Andy Nelson: Oh, is that
Pete Wright: Yeah. Because bureaucracy
Andy Nelson: She's still in she's still junior high.
Pete Wright: Yeah. There is inefficiency, and their programs had to be cut in order to get her there. We have to laugh or we'd cry.
Trailer: We have
Andy Nelson: to laugh. That's right. Oh my god. Alright. Well, I guess that's everything.
So we will be right back. But first, our credits.
Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Fable Forte, Fast Sound, Romeo, Oriole Novella, and Eli Kaplan. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at d-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, IMDb Com, and Wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
Andy Nelson: At Real Memories, we know the importance of preserving life's most precious moments on film. Our dedicated team of editors works diligently to transform your home movies into beautifully crafted compilation videos, ensuring that your memories will endure for generations. But what about the films that have left an indelible mark on your life? The ones that have inspired, moved, and entertained you. That's where Letterboxd comes in.
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Pete Wright: Alright, Andy. Sequels and remakes. We got we got a one. We got a one.
Andy Nelson: Yes. We are gonna be wrapping this up with Hannibal Rising, the sequel that Thomas Harris wrote after Hannibal, the film he made after this. Yes. I don't know. I'm saying too many words now.
Pete Wright: I'm gonna stop. The movie doesn't deserve that many words.
Andy Nelson: I wonder if the book does.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Me too. That's the that's the only one I haven't touched. Yeah. Do I really alright.
How to do an awards season? Did anybody give this one any attention?
Andy Nelson: It actually did have some recognition. Four wins with 10 other nominations. At the Saturn Awards, it was nominated nominated for best action adventure thriller film, but lost to road to perdition. Rafe Fines was nominated for best supporting actor, but lost to Andy Serkis in Lord of the Rings, the two towers. And Emily Watson was nominated for best supporting actress, but lost to Samantha Morton in Minority Report.
At the Hollywood Makeup Artist and the hairstylist guild awards, the makeup work on Ray Fiennes was nominated for best character makeup in a feature, but lost to Lord of the Rings, the two towers. For Elijah Wood, I was like Weird. Just because his ears and feet. I wasn't sure
Pete Wright: And don't forget that that boppy wig. Face.
Andy Nelson: Oh, like, okay. Well, anyway, at the Teen Choice Awards, it was nominated for choice horror thriller, but lost to the ring. This is exciting. At the Toros World Stunt Awards, we always like talking about them. It actually won for best fire stunt.
I should say it tied. For the stuntman strapped in the strapped to a wheelchair with his hands tied to the armrest, he is then lit on fire for for a full body burn and rides the wheelchair down the city street. Entire stunt is done by a stunt performer with the exception of the final fall of the wheelchair. The wheelchair then falls on its side with the stuntman in it. It actually tied with the film Windwalkers.
Pete Wright: That's an awesome stunt.
Andy Nelson: It is. I was surprised to learn it was a real person there.
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: I was like, you could have just had a dummy in that. I would not have bought it. But the fact that it was a real person, I'm like, dang. Okay.
Trailer: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Last but not least, the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards. Anthony Hopkins, interestingly, not Edward Norton, was nominated for best actor. Again, going to the power of that little role of Lecter. He, however, lost to Robin Williams in one hour photo. Ralph Fiennes won for best supporting actor, and Emily Watson was nominated for best supporting actress but lost to Monica Bellucci in Brotherhood of the Wolf.
Pete Wright: I can sort of see all of those. I get it.
Andy Nelson: I need to revisit Brotherhood of the Wolf. I don't remember that movie well enough to even speak to it.
Pete Wright: I want to revisit one hour photo. Just you saying it reminded me how much I wanna see that again.
Andy Nelson: Creepy, creepy Robin Williams.
Pete Wright: Creepy Robin Williams. To do at the box office?
Andy Nelson: For Ratner's film, he had a budget of 78,000,000 or 137,300,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie opened 10/04/2002, just twenty months after the last one, opposite Jonah, a VeggieTales movie, and the limited release of Welcome to Collinwood. It landed in the number one spot, which it held just for one more week and would stay in the top 10 for just five weeks. Not as good as the previous two, but still good enough. It would go on to earn 93,100,000.0 domestically and a hundred 16,000,000 internationally for a total gross of 209,200,000.0 in today's dollars.
That lands the film with an adjusted profit per finish minute of 1,800,000.0, only half as good as Scott's Hannibal, but still in the black.
Pete Wright: Okay. I you know, it's a movie.
Andy Nelson: I think it boils down to good enough. Yeah. Like, this this film feels, like, good enough.
Pete Wright: It does. It feels exactly good enough. Good enough to make money back. But, you know, we we didn't we didn't talk about the Rattnerization of Brett Rattner's life. Right?
Andy Nelson: No. Yeah. Complicated now. He's definitely been me too'd.
Pete Wright: Yep.
Andy Nelson: And I think that, I mean, Warner Brothers cut ties with him in 2017 after everything came out. Yeah. And I think from then on, he has really only produced. He hasn't directed any, at least any feature films. He produced Georgetown, and he was on the Lego Ninjago movie as executive producer, but that was also 2017.
I don't know. It makes me wonder if he's going to be done. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Even in TV, like, there's really nothing in TV. No music videos.
Pete Wright: Oh, no. He does have this he does have the the one that Melania Trump sold out to for lots of money to Amazon and Brett Ratner. He's doing the documentary for her. A documentary on her life, which is which is telling. Like, that's a very telling direction of his ideology and career.
So that that that's his only thing in a number of years is telling.
Andy Nelson: Wow. I feel like the only time I ever really saw much of him, like, I mean, in person was actually when I was watching that TV series on the lot that Spielberg Mhmm. Was behind. Mhmm. He was one of the I think he was a pretty regular judge.
It was Carrie Fisher, Gary Marshall, and or he might have just been a guest judge. Like, Michael Bay came on to guest John Avnet. So but I feel like that's mostly where I that I picture him there, and then I picture him in the Rush Hour films, and that's it. And the x three. He did or the third x three.
Pete Wright: Last stand. Yeah. Which was Andy. It was not good.
Andy Nelson: You know, it wasn't as bad as people say, but the problem was it also was just kind of there. It just looked so bad. After following the first two
Pete Wright: Well, whole bridge sequence at the end was so bad. It just looked Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Alright. But I liked the bit with Xavier and what's his name in the house when she, when Dark Phoenix, like, takes them away up into the house. And like that whole thing, I thought was actually that played pretty that was interesting. But again, it's just yeah.
Brett Ratner, it's just frustrating. And I I suppose of all of this, the best thing that has come out of this is that he's just, we haven't been seeing much of him for eight years now.
Pete Wright: Well, that's, that's where we go, and that's Red Dragon.
Andy Nelson: That's it. So yeah. Alright. Well, we'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie, wrapping up our Hannibal Lecter series.
Peter Weber's two thousand seven film, Hannibal Rising.
Pete Wright: Is your name Hannibal Lecter? Do you recall the events that led to your family's murder? The little boy, Hannibal, died out in that snow. He was raised in a work camp.
Trailer: Let's hear you scream, little master. What
Pete Wright: he is now, there's no word for it. Do you have any guilty knowledge of the death of Paul Mormon?
Trailer: Guilty knowledge? I found them. The men who killed my family.
Pete Wright: He was killed in the woods where your family died. His face had been eaten.
Trailer: Now tell me, inspector, you lost family in the war? Yes. Did you catch who did it? No. Then we are both suspects.
It's Lecter He's tracking them down one by one.
Pete Wright: If they catch Hannibal, they'll shoot him.
Trailer: It's dark now. Forgive them. Never. Evening, inspector.
Pete Wright: Alright. Listen up. We've got a situation. Group calling themselves the next real family of film podcasts is out there, and they are not playing by the rules. They offer bonus episodes and early access and in episode exclusives.
They're mailing out stickers at random intervals. We don't know when. We don't know why. And get this. They've got personal podcast feeds tailored, clean, ad free.
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That's where the real intel is dropping. If you're not in, you don't know what you're missing. Now here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna run a hard target search of every feed forum, film club, fan page, and firewall. If there's a movie lover out there who hasn't joined yet, we find them.
We bring them in. That's your target. That's your access point. You go there. You go to the family, truestory.fm/join, and you get everything.
The perks, the feed, the inside track. We do not stop until every movie lover knows this is not just a podcast. We are on a mission. Now move out. Letterbox, Sandy.
You know Letterboxd. You were just talking about it. The next real.com/letter letterbox, what are you gonna do for your stars and hearts? You know we are on a limited number of stars and hearts that we have to apportion to these movie remaining movies. Can should we review the score so far?
Andy Nelson: So well, according to you, we only have 15 stars to give to this entire five film Yes. Run. Right. We both gave Manhunter four stars. We both gave Silence of the Lambs five stars.
I gave Hannibal one star. You gave it two stars. Mhmm.
Pete Wright: So I'm at eleven, and you're at ten. And our initial goal when we set out on this audacious adventure is to beat the teens your our together our initial goal that we both agreed on strongly
Andy Nelson: In blood.
Pete Wright: To to beat five stars or to beat 15 stars.
Andy Nelson: No. To to equal 15 stars, not to beat it.
Pete Wright: Okay. To equal 15 stars.
Andy Nelson: That's what you said. You have 15 stars.
Pete Wright: I have four stars left. And and if my goal is to equal 15 stars, I'm in a problematic space. Yeah. What are you gonna do?
Andy Nelson: This is an an example of a film that I think it's fine. It's it's watchable. It has moments that I enjoy. I don't it still is kind of forgettable for me. I'm gonna go three stars, no heart.
Pete Wright: Okay. I think on any other day, I would give this movie two stars. But because of my commitment to mathematics, I have to give it three stars. You don't have to. I do.
I have to. And that, fair listener, is foreshadowing.
Andy Nelson: Well, yeah, because you decided to watch all of these films in one weekend. I haven't seen Hannibal Rising, so I have no idea what to expect, except based on what you your attitude seems to generally be. I I get a sense that I'm not going to worry about it too much.
Pete Wright: I don't think you have to worry about it too much.
Andy Nelson: Are you three stars?
Pete Wright: No. I'm no I'm no heart. I'm no heart.
Andy Nelson: Three stars and no heart. Okay. So neither of us a heart. Yeah. But three stars is where, our over on our count on Letterboxd at the next reel, that's gonna average to three stars.
No heart for this film.
Pete Wright: And so you're at 13. I'm at 14 for the series.
Andy Nelson: Yes. Good. Correct.
Pete Wright: Since we're both keeping scores so firm. And I have
Andy Nelson: zero interest in trying to hit 15?
Pete Wright: And, yes. I'm just You will hit 15 or less. Will I? I can't I
Andy Nelson: or I you never know. I could go higher.
Pete Wright: You just never know. Would be a spoiler. That would be just to piss me off. We both know that you would be doing that to troll me. That is the only
Andy Nelson: You're saying that based on what you think I'm gonna say about Hannibal Rising, assuming that I will hate it. You never know.
Pete Wright: Ladies and gentlemen, the show may be over after next week. I'm just saying. We may we may come to Fisticuffs.
Andy Nelson: We we survived our, women in prison movie, Roger Corman series. I think we can survive this one.
Pete Wright: Okay. Fair. That's fair.
Andy Nelson: Alright. Well, you can find, the show over at Letterbox at the next reel. You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Red Dragon? We would love to hear your thoughts.
Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community, where we will be talking about the movie this week.
Pete Wright: When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins. Letterbox giveth Andrew. As letterboxed always doeth.
Pete Wright: Alright. Go ahead. How did you how did you choose your review this week?
Andy Nelson: I started searching earliest, but then I didn't end up picking the earliest. I just picked one that is early. It is early. But random. But random.
Yeah.
Pete Wright: Okay. What did you what did you choose?
Andy Nelson: I went with a three and a half stars, no heart by Ron Damon, who makes this very astute point. No dragons at all. He's right. Good note. Good note.
Pete Wright: Good note. Alright. I have one plus a bonus. Lars Lenoir, three and a half stars, says, I know he's the villain, but taking a girl to touch a tiger on a first date because she previously mentioned she saw a cougar once is baller. And then he goes and hangs ton of tons of dong and ass, a movie for the ages.
I I don't understand it, but I love it. And the the bonus is something we didn't talk about at all. This is three and a half stars and a heart from Sam Thompson who says, okay. But why did she grab the tiger's balls?
Andy Nelson: A great point. That was a strange little I was like, okay.
Pete Wright: What a weird moment we're having. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Is that, like, weird direction from Brett? Like, hey, Emily, just reach down and cup his balls.
Pete Wright: Cup his balls, please. There's not enough cupping.
Andy Nelson: Please. Like, what a strange what a strange
Pete Wright: We've gotta add that that Brett and Ratner je ne sais quoi, that just something something that only Brett Ratner can deliver, please. Cup the balls.
Andy Nelson: Cup the balls.
Pete Wright: Alright. Thanks, Slitterboxd.