1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,486 [UPBEAT MUSIC] 2 00:00:03,486 --> 00:00:08,470 3 00:00:08,470 --> 00:00:11,500 - Welcome to the Let's Talk CJ podcast. 4 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:14,380 I am your host, Dr. Pat Nelson, a member 5 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:17,140 of the Department of Criminal Justice at Minnesota State 6 00:00:17,140 --> 00:00:18,760 University, Mankato. 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,850 Thank you for joining us as we explore different topics 8 00:00:21,850 --> 00:00:24,670 about criminal justice and also profile 9 00:00:24,670 --> 00:00:26,230 current and retired professionals 10 00:00:26,230 --> 00:00:28,370 from the criminal justice system. 11 00:00:28,370 --> 00:00:30,070 We hope you learn some new things 12 00:00:30,070 --> 00:00:33,820 about these topics and amazing people, so please enjoy. 13 00:00:33,820 --> 00:00:37,060 Today, we are talking with Dr. Laura Harrison, who 14 00:00:37,060 --> 00:00:39,340 is the chair of the Department of History 15 00:00:39,340 --> 00:00:43,030 and Gender Studies at Minnesota State University, Mankato. 16 00:00:43,030 --> 00:00:46,390 Dr. Harrison received her doctorate in gender studies 17 00:00:46,390 --> 00:00:48,280 from Indiana University. 18 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,490 Her most recent book project, Losing Sleep-- 19 00:00:51,490 --> 00:00:54,850 Risk, Responsibility, and Infant Sleep Safety, 20 00:00:54,850 --> 00:00:57,160 takes on socially constructed beliefs 21 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,650 about infant safety, including how medicine, law, 22 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:04,220 and policy reward some parents while punishing others. 23 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:07,850 Her first book, Brown Babies-- sorry, let's try that again-- 24 00:01:07,850 --> 00:01:10,730 Brown Bodies, White Babies, the Politics 25 00:01:10,730 --> 00:01:14,540 of Cross-Racial Surrogacy, examines the implications 26 00:01:14,540 --> 00:01:17,570 of surrogacy arrangements for contemporary understandings 27 00:01:17,570 --> 00:01:20,130 of race, kinship, and gender. 28 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:23,450 She works on subjects ranging from reproductive justice, 29 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:27,200 surrogacy, representations of motherhood, race, and public 30 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,580 health, and gender and feminist backlash, appears in journals, 31 00:01:31,580 --> 00:01:36,080 including Signs, Frontiers, Feminist Formations, Genders, 32 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,440 Feminist Media Studies, and Women's Studies International. 33 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,250 She also serves on the advisory board for the Minnesota State 34 00:01:43,250 --> 00:01:46,110 Mankato Scholars Serving Time Program. 35 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:48,710 Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Harrison, 36 00:01:48,710 --> 00:01:52,162 to talk about legislating women's bodies. 37 00:01:52,162 --> 00:01:53,120 - Thanks for having me. 38 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,150 - So I know I just said legislating women's bodies. 39 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:57,350 It's a large concept. 40 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:00,620 Could you give us an overview before we start talking 41 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:02,790 about specific examples? 42 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:03,440 - Sure. 43 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,580 So when we talk about legislating women's bodies, 44 00:02:07,580 --> 00:02:11,000 we're thinking about ways that women 45 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,380 are policed, criminalized, or targeted 46 00:02:15,380 --> 00:02:20,890 for issues that may be reproductive, 47 00:02:20,890 --> 00:02:29,170 particularly issues that relate to pregnancy, to childbearing, 48 00:02:29,170 --> 00:02:34,840 and the way that the law focuses on controlling or limiting 49 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,800 women's reproductive autonomy. 50 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,430 - So I know many of our listeners 51 00:02:40,430 --> 00:02:42,530 have heard of the women's suffrage movement 52 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:43,880 to get the right to vote. 53 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,380 But we're moving way past that. 54 00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:47,900 We're talking about specifically things 55 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:53,180 that women physically are penalized for or maybe judged 56 00:02:53,180 --> 00:02:54,080 for. 57 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,470 So maybe let's jump into the most controversial 58 00:02:57,470 --> 00:02:59,390 and the biggest case in the last year, 59 00:02:59,390 --> 00:03:02,930 talking about Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health 60 00:03:02,930 --> 00:03:06,410 Organization, which addressed Roe versus Wade. 61 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:11,950 So can you give us an overview in how that impacts women? 62 00:03:11,950 --> 00:03:12,450 - Right. 63 00:03:12,450 --> 00:03:17,760 So in 1973, the Roe versus Wade gave women 64 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,320 a constitutionally protected right 65 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,970 to abortion in the United States, 66 00:03:20,970 --> 00:03:23,730 which was later divided by trimester 67 00:03:23,730 --> 00:03:27,900 in terms of when the state can intervene on that right 68 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:29,280 to abortion. 69 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,320 And the Dobbs v. Jackson decision 70 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,750 overturned Roe v. Wade, which meant 71 00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:37,830 that the right to abortion went back to the States 72 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:41,250 to decide whether or not women would have access 73 00:03:41,250 --> 00:03:42,870 to abortion rights. 74 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:49,210 And that is a perfect example of legislating women's bodies 75 00:03:49,210 --> 00:03:52,570 because the state then has the right 76 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:57,520 to determine whether women have access to what is often 77 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,360 considered just general health care in terms of their access 78 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,120 to an abortion. 79 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:03,620 - Right. 80 00:04:03,620 --> 00:04:05,510 And I think it's important to note-- 81 00:04:05,510 --> 00:04:07,070 and you'll probably agree with me-- 82 00:04:07,070 --> 00:04:08,750 abortion is a medical procedure. 83 00:04:08,750 --> 00:04:11,090 And there's many ways that it could happen. 84 00:04:11,090 --> 00:04:13,530 And there's many reasons why it could happen. 85 00:04:13,530 --> 00:04:16,970 And before Roe versus Wade, it was up to each state 86 00:04:16,970 --> 00:04:21,800 to identify that in legislation, if they decided to. 87 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,430 But Roe v. Wade gave the national protection for that, 88 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:28,040 but they took that National protection away. 89 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:28,670 - Exactly. 90 00:04:28,670 --> 00:04:31,010 And I think that it is important for us 91 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:34,670 to understand that that does not mean 92 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:36,770 that all women don't have the right 93 00:04:36,770 --> 00:04:39,200 to an abortion at this time. 94 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,240 In the state of Minnesota, for example, 95 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,330 we've actually expanded women's access to abortion 96 00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:46,410 since the Dobbs v. Jackson decision. 97 00:04:46,410 --> 00:04:50,150 So it really depends on what state you live in. 98 00:04:50,150 --> 00:04:55,490 But what researchers find is that the factor that 99 00:04:55,490 --> 00:05:00,770 impacts women's ability to access abortion the most 100 00:05:00,770 --> 00:05:03,820 is their economic status. 101 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:07,440 So low-income women and women of color, 102 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,700 prior to the overturn of Roe and today, 103 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:17,430 have the most limited access to that health care because 104 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:22,090 of things like transportation barriers to a clinic, 105 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:24,510 especially now, if a clinic is not available 106 00:05:24,510 --> 00:05:30,090 in your state, childcare issues, and, of course, cost. 107 00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:33,810 - Well, and doesn't this also impact just general 108 00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:35,310 reproductive health care? 109 00:05:35,310 --> 00:05:39,150 Like, an OB-GYN may decide to not practice in a state 110 00:05:39,150 --> 00:05:42,840 because they're worried about the state restrictions on that. 111 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:46,590 And haven't we seen some OB-GYNs actually flee states 112 00:05:46,590 --> 00:05:49,140 so that they don't get caught up in that? 113 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:50,100 - Yeah, absolutely. 114 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:54,480 There was a case in Indiana in which 115 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,810 a young girl was raped and became pregnant 116 00:05:57,810 --> 00:05:59,740 as a result of a rape. 117 00:05:59,740 --> 00:06:05,140 And I believe what happened is her OB did perform the abortion 118 00:06:05,140 --> 00:06:09,090 but was then under scrutiny for whether or not 119 00:06:09,090 --> 00:06:11,920 that violated the law in the state of Indiana. 120 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,200 So it's raising really thorny issues for health care 121 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,460 providers about whether or not they're putting themselves 122 00:06:20,460 --> 00:06:26,340 in legal peril by performing, again, really 123 00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:30,750 basic acts of health care for women and girls. 124 00:06:30,750 --> 00:06:34,290 - Well, and think this is also bleeding over into things such 125 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:38,520 as sexual assault victims who are asking for what's known 126 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,830 as the morning-after pill and that kind of medication. 127 00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:44,910 That medication right now is in a fight in Texas courts 128 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:47,880 that they think will go to the Supreme Court about access. 129 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,090 So how does that impact our victims of sexual assault 130 00:06:51,090 --> 00:06:53,370 and what kind of health care they can get? 131 00:06:53,370 --> 00:06:58,680 - It's a good example of how politics impact 132 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:04,110 our understanding of science and medicine because technologies 133 00:07:04,110 --> 00:07:07,800 like the morning-after pill are not what we call 134 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,240 abortifacients, meaning they don't cause an abortion. 135 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,100 Intrauterine devices, IUDs, do not cause an abortion. 136 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:21,310 And medicine is quite clear on this issue. 137 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:26,290 But if you were to listen to political debates, for example, 138 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:29,460 you might hear people say that the morning-after pill is 139 00:07:29,460 --> 00:07:31,170 an abortion pill. 140 00:07:31,170 --> 00:07:35,370 And you really have to use your critical thinking skills 141 00:07:35,370 --> 00:07:39,930 to be able to think and do some research 142 00:07:39,930 --> 00:07:41,490 and understand what you're hearing 143 00:07:41,490 --> 00:07:44,460 and whether or not it's medically accurate. 144 00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:48,900 - Well, and before we leave Dobbs versus Jackson Women's 145 00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:50,820 Health Organization, I think this is also 146 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:53,820 a good example of how people thought that once 147 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:57,510 the Roe versus Wade Supreme Court decision was locked in, 148 00:07:57,510 --> 00:07:59,850 and it set a precedent, and it actually 149 00:07:59,850 --> 00:08:03,600 faced quite a few challenges, that the people 150 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,120 on the legislative side never took the step 151 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,260 to codify in our legislation this same protection. 152 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:12,750 And now we're seeing that not only this one, 153 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:14,400 but several other cases are being 154 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,740 overturned, even though precedents are actually 155 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:17,520 existing. 156 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,950 Minnesota was a forerunner. 157 00:08:19,950 --> 00:08:22,080 We put it right into our state constitution. 158 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,710 But we're seeing other states around us now scrambling. 159 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:28,060 And now they're scrambling at the federal level too. 160 00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:30,720 So it's a good example of how you have 161 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,080 to have both branches working. 162 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,690 You can't just rely on one or the other. 163 00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:39,549 - It's raising concerns for other human rights, 164 00:08:39,549 --> 00:08:45,340 like gay marriage and even interracial marriage, that 165 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:49,870 are being questioned of whether or not those Supreme Court case 166 00:08:49,870 --> 00:08:53,260 decisions that gave us those rights 167 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:56,320 could be overturned in the same way and, like you're saying, 168 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,300 whether or not states need to ensure 169 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:00,730 that we have those written into our constitution 170 00:09:00,730 --> 00:09:02,860 at a state level. 171 00:09:02,860 --> 00:09:04,360 - Actually, we're seeing one come up 172 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,720 about people that have a domestic restraining 173 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:08,927 order against them. 174 00:09:08,927 --> 00:09:11,260 There's a case that's being brought to the Supreme Court 175 00:09:11,260 --> 00:09:15,460 about overturning a 1994 amendment that they could not 176 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:16,210 have guns. 177 00:09:16,210 --> 00:09:18,610 So we're bringing back that gun violence scare. 178 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:19,840 - Mm-hmm. 179 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,540 - All right, so let's talk about contraception. 180 00:09:22,540 --> 00:09:25,780 I'm sure most people don't realize it took a Supreme Court 181 00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:29,830 case to ensure that a married woman could get contraception. 182 00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:31,610 Can you speak to that at all? 183 00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:32,110 - Yeah. 184 00:09:32,110 --> 00:09:35,650 So there were two important Supreme Court cases, 185 00:09:35,650 --> 00:09:40,240 Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird, 186 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:46,060 that decided when married people could access contraception 187 00:09:46,060 --> 00:09:49,480 and when single people could access contraception. 188 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,570 And those were relatively recently. 189 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,240 And I think, again, contraception, we assume, 190 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,740 is somewhat settled in that access to contraception 191 00:09:59,740 --> 00:10:03,340 is a basic component of bodily autonomy, 192 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:06,410 meaning your right to control your body. 193 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:11,500 But we shouldn't feel so sure about that 194 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:17,980 because the intent to limit access to contraception 195 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:21,970 is closely linked to limiting abortion. 196 00:10:21,970 --> 00:10:25,360 And both of those, again, are-- 197 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,650 they come from a desire to control and limit 198 00:10:29,650 --> 00:10:31,810 bodily autonomy. 199 00:10:31,810 --> 00:10:34,660 - And I know we are talking about Supreme Court cases. 200 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:37,240 And those that work in the criminal justice system 201 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,970 might be thinking, well, that's nothing to do with me. 202 00:10:39,970 --> 00:10:43,900 But before 1965, you could have been 203 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:46,240 called to a doctor's office to arrest 204 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,150 a woman who was married that was requesting contraception. 205 00:10:49,150 --> 00:10:51,020 I mean, technically, it was against the law. 206 00:10:51,020 --> 00:10:53,770 So it's something to think about. 207 00:10:53,770 --> 00:10:54,940 - Totally. 208 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:58,330 - So let's move away from the Supreme Court 209 00:10:58,330 --> 00:11:02,590 and talk about how we criminalize women's 210 00:11:02,590 --> 00:11:04,150 bodies in different ways. 211 00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:09,830 Should we start with pregnancy and how that happens? 212 00:11:09,830 --> 00:11:10,330 - Yeah. 213 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:16,060 So I was just reviewing a really important article by-- 214 00:11:16,060 --> 00:11:18,370 Paltrow and Flavin are the authors-- 215 00:11:18,370 --> 00:11:21,430 that looked at cases between-- 216 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:24,910 they looked from 1973 to 2005. 217 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:28,210 And they found 400 cases, which is surely 218 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:31,240 an undercount, but 400 cases of women 219 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,620 who had been targeted for arrest, 220 00:11:33,620 --> 00:11:37,690 detention, or forced intervention because 221 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:39,280 of their pregnancy. 222 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,570 And some of the main themes that they 223 00:11:43,570 --> 00:11:47,410 found of what women were being arrested for 224 00:11:47,410 --> 00:11:53,300 or have these forced interventions 225 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:58,070 were things like women who had miscarriages 226 00:11:58,070 --> 00:12:01,580 that were then investigated as potential crimes-- 227 00:12:01,580 --> 00:12:06,450 and we've only seen an increase in this in recent years-- 228 00:12:06,450 --> 00:12:12,740 women who were wanting to deliver their babies naturally 229 00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:17,120 vaginally and instead were forced to have C-sections. 230 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,980 They found women who were arrested for using drugs 231 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:27,680 while pregnant, even cases where women were arrested 232 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:30,560 for using drugs while pregnant and then charges were dropped 233 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:36,980 if they had an abortion, which is creating 234 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:40,850 a lot of coercive pressure on women not to continue 235 00:12:40,850 --> 00:12:44,390 their pregnancies, especially women who have other children 236 00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:47,660 and fear what could happen with their families 237 00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:50,300 if they're arrested or if they're imprisoned. 238 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:52,320 Could definitely feel coerced not 239 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,660 to continue those pregnancies if they're drug users. 240 00:12:55,660 --> 00:13:00,480 It also really creates barriers to women seeking 241 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,150 help for drug addiction while pregnant 242 00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:06,780 if they fear that they will be detained 243 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:11,190 or have their other children removed from their custody 244 00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:14,010 - Did that article talk at all about punishments 245 00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:16,320 for those that were arrested? 246 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,180 Did they end up getting sent to prison? 247 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:19,980 Did it talk to anything about that? 248 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:20,580 - Yeah. 249 00:13:20,580 --> 00:13:24,750 There's a wide array of punishments. 250 00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:28,290 Women were charged with things like child abuse. 251 00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:30,570 I think it's really fascinating if you 252 00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:34,380 look at cases of women who are charged with child abuse 253 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:37,920 while they're pregnant, because what ends up happening is, 254 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,920 often, laws that were not created 255 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:46,270 for this specific intention are utilized in unexpected ways. 256 00:13:46,270 --> 00:13:51,060 For example, women who test positive for drugs when they're 257 00:13:51,060 --> 00:13:55,080 pregnant will be charged with child abuse for the period 258 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,420 of time before the cord is cut. 259 00:13:57,420 --> 00:14:01,440 So after the child has come out of the womb, 260 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,680 but the umbilical cord is still connected. 261 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:08,160 They'll be charged with, like, delivering drugs to a minor. 262 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,085 - Oh my gosh. 263 00:14:09,085 --> 00:14:09,585 Wow. 264 00:14:09,585 --> 00:14:11,280 - Mm-hmm. 265 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,170 Another example of that, the kind 266 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:17,550 of laws that are used in unexpected ways, some of us 267 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:19,920 may remember the Laci Peterson case. 268 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,060 She was a woman who was murdered by her husband when 269 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:28,510 she was about to deliver, nine months pregnant or something. 270 00:14:28,510 --> 00:14:30,660 And after that case, there were laws 271 00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:34,890 put in place that would punish someone 272 00:14:34,890 --> 00:14:39,630 further if they killed a pregnant woman, the idea 273 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:43,080 being that there are two, quote, unquote, "lives" being affected 274 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,010 by that murder. 275 00:14:44,010 --> 00:14:47,790 So its intention was to protect pregnant women 276 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:51,600 but has been used since then to charge 277 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,950 women who have miscarriages. 278 00:14:53,950 --> 00:14:54,550 - Wow. 279 00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:56,950 Well, in Minnesota here, we have a statute 280 00:14:56,950 --> 00:14:59,410 for murder of an unborn child and manslaughter 281 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:00,550 of an unborn child. 282 00:15:00,550 --> 00:15:02,350 I had not even thought that that could be 283 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:04,400 used against the woman herself. 284 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:04,900 Wow. 285 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,660 - It's so tricky because, again, if we 286 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:11,200 look at it on the surface, we might say, of course, 287 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,460 if a family's expecting a baby and something happens 288 00:15:15,460 --> 00:15:18,070 that causes the death of both the mother and the baby, 289 00:15:18,070 --> 00:15:21,890 that is a crime that's more severe in certain ways. 290 00:15:21,890 --> 00:15:26,320 But what we see is it introduces this idea of personhood, 291 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,750 viewing the fetus as a separate person 292 00:15:28,750 --> 00:15:35,290 from the pregnant woman that has been twisted in ways that then 293 00:15:35,290 --> 00:15:40,450 go after pregnant women if they're suspected of activities 294 00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:42,080 that could have harmed the fetus. 295 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,940 And when I say that some people may think, oh, activities, 296 00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:50,530 again, like, drug use or like, I don't know, 297 00:15:50,530 --> 00:15:53,290 wild things that you could do that could harm your baby. 298 00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:54,400 But I don't mean that. 299 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,760 I mean falling down the stairs, riding 300 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,530 on a boat in choppy water, going downhill skiing when 301 00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:03,850 you're four months pregnant. 302 00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:07,590 These are the kind of things that women 303 00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:11,530 can and have been investigated for if they have a miscarriage. 304 00:16:11,530 --> 00:16:14,500 And it should really concern all of us. 305 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:15,070 - Oh, yeah. 306 00:16:15,070 --> 00:16:16,025 Absolutely. 307 00:16:16,025 --> 00:16:16,900 Because you're right. 308 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:18,358 When you first said that, I'm like, 309 00:16:18,358 --> 00:16:21,880 oh, maybe drug use, maybe jumping off 310 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,370 of buildings, things that seem really 311 00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:26,710 dangerous, but everyday activities, 312 00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:28,780 and they could get charged for that. 313 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:30,790 Wow. 314 00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:33,760 So along with pregnancy, what about the loss 315 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,500 of a young child? 316 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:40,300 We know SIDS is a legitimate thing that happens. 317 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:42,940 But there are several-- 318 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:45,760 I mean, there are several steps to the investigations. 319 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,040 And have you seen a criminalization 320 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,980 of the death of young children, especially towards the mother? 321 00:16:50,980 --> 00:16:51,550 - Yes. 322 00:16:51,550 --> 00:16:55,810 So my most recent book that you mentioned, Losing Sleep, 323 00:16:55,810 --> 00:17:01,210 one of the chapters looked at 29 cases of parents who were 324 00:17:01,210 --> 00:17:04,839 charged in some way criminally-- the charges varied quite 325 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:05,770 a bit-- 326 00:17:05,770 --> 00:17:11,380 after they had an infant who died while co-sleeping. 327 00:17:11,380 --> 00:17:15,520 And co-sleeping just refers to any sleep surface 328 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,319 that's shared between an adult and an infant. 329 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,470 So it could be sleeping in a bed with a baby. 330 00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:22,390 It could be sleeping on a couch or a chair 331 00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:27,609 with a baby, a mattress on the floor, any kind of environment. 332 00:17:27,609 --> 00:17:31,180 There's a lot of evidence to suggest that co-sleeping 333 00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:33,460 is, in fact, not dangerous for infants 334 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:36,430 if it's not done alongside other risk factors. 335 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:39,040 Like, if you smoke cigarettes, you 336 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,330 shouldn't sleep with the baby. 337 00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:42,850 If you're taking sleeping pills or using drugs or alcohol, 338 00:17:42,850 --> 00:17:45,730 you shouldn't sleep with the baby. 339 00:17:45,730 --> 00:17:49,480 Parents have to be really well informed about safety, right? 340 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,120 But these are cases in which parents 341 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:57,130 were charged with a death or with some sort of crime 342 00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:58,960 after their child died while co-sleeping. 343 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,550 And like you said, sudden infant death syndrome 344 00:18:03,550 --> 00:18:08,080 is what's diagnosed if a child under the age of one 345 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,810 dies and there's no cause that can be found. 346 00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:17,620 So co-sleeping complicates this because if a child is found 347 00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:21,790 in an adult bed, an infant, then the argument 348 00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:24,040 can be made that there is a cause 349 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,890 and that that cause could be suffocation. 350 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:29,350 In fact, there is no physiological way 351 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:32,020 to differentiate between sudden infant death syndrome 352 00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:34,300 and suffocation, which seems kind of surprising, 353 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:35,015 but it's true. 354 00:18:35,015 --> 00:18:35,515 - Right. 355 00:18:35,515 --> 00:18:36,015 Right. 356 00:18:36,015 --> 00:18:39,670 - So in these cases, parents were charged. 357 00:18:39,670 --> 00:18:44,980 And what I found was that typically, there 358 00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:48,010 were three themes of parents who were charged. 359 00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:52,420 They were charged if they had had more than one child who 360 00:18:52,420 --> 00:18:55,210 died as an infant. 361 00:18:55,210 --> 00:18:57,850 Like, if they had a previous child who died of SIDS, 362 00:18:57,850 --> 00:18:59,900 they were more likely to be charged, 363 00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,750 which is sort of illogical because SIDS 364 00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:06,390 can reoccur in siblings. 365 00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:09,390 We don't understand the cause of SIDS. 366 00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:11,220 They're more likely to be charged 367 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:13,590 if they had been previously counseled 368 00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:16,200 not to co-sleep with a child. 369 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,900 This is really disturbing to me because it suggests 370 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:23,160 that public health education can be used as a tool 371 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,870 sort of weaponized against you. 372 00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:28,500 We would hope that all parents would receive education 373 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,710 about how their infant should sleep safely. 374 00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:34,140 And then third, if those parents had 375 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:37,110 a history of drug or alcohol abuse 376 00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:39,570 and if drug or alcohol abuse was not connected 377 00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:42,150 to the death of that child. 378 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:43,890 - Well, I actually saw this firsthand. 379 00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:45,900 And one of the calls I went on in Minneapolis 380 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,780 was an infant that died during co-sleeping. 381 00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:51,810 And the mother was treated like a suspect. 382 00:19:51,810 --> 00:19:54,870 And I felt so bad for her because I 383 00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:56,520 was with the first responding officer. 384 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,860 And I saw how devastated she was. 385 00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:01,560 And then I saw her go through the process. 386 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,570 They ended up not charging her. 387 00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:05,640 But I mean, she spent the first two days 388 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,560 after the death of her five-month-old 389 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,420 being considered the suspect. 390 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:11,318 And it had to be devastating. 391 00:20:11,318 --> 00:20:13,110 I mean, it was a hard call to go to anyway, 392 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:14,940 but that had to be devastating. 393 00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:21,120 - There's really interesting gendered things around that. 394 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,830 For one thing, mothers are more likely to be the ones who 395 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:28,980 are suspected in that case because mothers 396 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:31,750 are the primary caregivers of infants. 397 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:36,360 So the person who was last in contact with that infant 398 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,610 is going to be the first one who's 399 00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:41,160 questioned as to what happened. 400 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,190 And therefore, that's more likely to be moms. 401 00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:50,000 Also, things like, when you read police reports 402 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,710 about these cases, if their house was dirty, 403 00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:58,370 if they just don't have a clean home, that's always 404 00:20:58,370 --> 00:21:00,200 mentioned in the police report. 405 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,020 Again, that speaks to our ideas about a good mother 406 00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:05,150 and good women and how they care for their homes 407 00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:06,890 and their families. 408 00:21:06,890 --> 00:21:09,110 In trial transcripts, they'll talk 409 00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:16,460 about piercings and tattoos that women have to sort of speak 410 00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:17,720 to their overall character. 411 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,680 So it's really interesting to see how the expectations 412 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,280 we have about being a good mom impact 413 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,160 how we criminalize and then even attempt 414 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,410 to legislate those actions. 415 00:21:32,410 --> 00:21:35,140 - Well, and you're bringing up the definition of child 416 00:21:35,140 --> 00:21:36,760 neglect, which is in statute. 417 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,100 They tell you, look at the condition of the house. 418 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:40,630 How much food is in the fridge? 419 00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:42,100 Is there food sitting out? 420 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:44,070 Well, we all have different definitions 421 00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:45,070 of what's a clean house. 422 00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:46,970 And it depends on when you've just walked in. 423 00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:48,670 I mean, if it's just right after dinner, 424 00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:51,100 it's probably going to look like everything's out. 425 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:52,750 So, oh, yeah. 426 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:57,070 So before we go past women, I know 427 00:21:57,070 --> 00:22:00,970 we have seen women who are users of drugs, especially 428 00:22:00,970 --> 00:22:06,820 like fentanyl and meth and some of the more current ones, where 429 00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:09,340 we've seen them arrested because they've used drugs 430 00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:11,080 and their children are with them. 431 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,180 But we don't see their male counterpart 432 00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:14,770 charged with that child abuse, even 433 00:22:14,770 --> 00:22:18,640 if they're both in the same car or both in the same area. 434 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,470 Have you seen anything about that? 435 00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:22,570 Is that aligning with the research? 436 00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:26,000 - I mean, I saw similar things with this with the parents who 437 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,180 were arrested after co-sleeping. 438 00:22:28,180 --> 00:22:34,640 There was a case of a mother who wasn't even in the room. 439 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,370 She put the baby to bed in the same bed 440 00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:40,130 as her partner, male partner. 441 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:41,690 She went to take a bath. 442 00:22:41,690 --> 00:22:44,150 When she came back, the baby was unresponsive, 443 00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:47,480 so she called 911. 444 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,450 There was drug paraphernalia in the home-- 445 00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:53,090 again, not evidence that she had been using or her partner 446 00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:54,770 had been using at that time. 447 00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:57,200 But she was the one who was arrested and charged 448 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,330 for child endangerment, child abuse. 449 00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:02,030 There's a huge range of charges with this. 450 00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:04,530 And there was no mention of him being charged at all. 451 00:23:04,530 --> 00:23:09,020 So again, I think it's that kind of social assumption we have 452 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:11,840 that women are the ones who are ultimately 453 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,800 responsible for child safety. 454 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,310 And it's important to say too that the factors that 455 00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:23,780 lead to things like unexplained child death 456 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:27,470 are prematurity, birth defects. 457 00:23:27,470 --> 00:23:31,220 They're things that are tied to structural racism and poverty, 458 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:34,620 not the bad choices of mothers. 459 00:23:34,620 --> 00:23:35,250 - Right. 460 00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:36,570 Right. 461 00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:39,240 So, well, let's stay in this age range. 462 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,390 What about-- I mean, we've seen, especially with social media, 463 00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:45,360 about people being confronted about breastfeeding in public 464 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,050 and breastfeeding in areas that other people don't 465 00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:52,050 think are appropriate and even police being called on it. 466 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:53,670 What are your thoughts on that? 467 00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:56,220 And how is that impacting everybody? 468 00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:56,760 - Yeah. 469 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,340 I think that's really interesting, especially 470 00:23:59,340 --> 00:24:03,810 in Minnesota, you have a right to breastfeed in public. 471 00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:07,005 But I mean, as your listeners know, 472 00:24:07,005 --> 00:24:08,970 having the right to do something, 473 00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:11,280 having the law on your side doesn't necessarily 474 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:17,070 mean that if an individual confronts you or an institution 475 00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:20,010 that you're in confronts you, that you have any ability 476 00:24:20,010 --> 00:24:23,010 to enforce that right. 477 00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:29,400 So there are commonly cases where women will be told, 478 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,740 you can't breastfeed here. 479 00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:34,390 Let me show you where the bathroom is. 480 00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:34,890 Ew. 481 00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:35,410 Ew. 482 00:24:35,410 --> 00:24:35,910 - Yeah. 483 00:24:35,910 --> 00:24:38,420 Yeah. 484 00:24:38,420 --> 00:24:40,580 - As a person who has breastfed in public, 485 00:24:40,580 --> 00:24:43,250 the last place I would take my baby to breastfeed would be 486 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:45,770 in the bath-- do you want to eat in the bathroom? 487 00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:46,760 - No, thank you. 488 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,750 No. 489 00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:50,270 - Or do you want to eat with a blanket over your face, which 490 00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:52,280 is the other thing that women are often told. 491 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,110 Cover that up, right? 492 00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:59,750 That's not a comfortable way for infants to eat, either. 493 00:24:59,750 --> 00:25:02,660 - Well, and that even kind of speaks to what is considered 494 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:06,920 indecent, is the focus on breasts being indecent, where 495 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,540 men can walk around without shirts on, 496 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:09,957 and women can't, even though there 497 00:25:09,957 --> 00:25:12,468 are men that have some larger breasts than women 498 00:25:12,468 --> 00:25:13,010 we have seen. 499 00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:15,650 So there is a fascination with that. 500 00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:18,440 - My children are obsessed with this. 501 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,760 They're 11 and 9. 502 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,300 And when we see men that don't have a shirt on, 503 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,910 they'll say, why can they walk around without their shirts 504 00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:29,150 on and women have to wear a bra or women have to wear a shirt? 505 00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:31,850 And the answer is that it's entirely 506 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:34,260 a social construction, what parts of the body 507 00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:37,050 we deem to be sexual, and the fact that we 508 00:25:37,050 --> 00:25:39,000 deem women's breaths to be sexualized, 509 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,520 even when they're serving a function 510 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,130 of keeping an infant alive. 511 00:25:44,130 --> 00:25:44,700 - Right. 512 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:47,070 Well, and we do know people that weaponize this. 513 00:25:47,070 --> 00:25:50,880 So even though it's legal in Minnesota 514 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,670 to breastfeed in public, it doesn't stop somebody 515 00:25:53,670 --> 00:25:55,080 from calling 911. 516 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,590 And even I, as a responding officer might know it's legal. 517 00:25:58,590 --> 00:25:59,610 And I have to walk up. 518 00:25:59,610 --> 00:26:02,520 And it's still embarrassing that now the police 519 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,470 have been called. 520 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:06,548 You may not even know the police are called. 521 00:26:06,548 --> 00:26:08,340 And they may not even come and talk to you. 522 00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:11,160 But they talk to the caller, and you know why they're there. 523 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,720 It's still an embarrassment. 524 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,290 And it's still using the law against you 525 00:26:16,290 --> 00:26:17,830 to provide that embarrassment. 526 00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:18,330 Yeah. 527 00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:18,990 - Yeah. 528 00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:21,420 I mean, you can tell me the answer to this, 529 00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:24,210 but I would imagine that if an officer is called, 530 00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:26,970 they probably don't have much choice but to respond, 531 00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:30,360 even if they know the person has not committed a crime 532 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:31,380 or isn't responsible. 533 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:33,990 And then, like you said, the public shaming 534 00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:38,330 and embarrassment results, even if the officer themselves 535 00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:40,460 is saying, I'm sorry this is happening. 536 00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:42,230 I know you're not doing anything wrong. 537 00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:42,810 - Right. 538 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:43,310 Right. 539 00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:46,303 And that's exactly it, because like I said, on that, 540 00:26:46,303 --> 00:26:46,970 I would respond. 541 00:26:46,970 --> 00:26:48,315 I'm like, this is not an issue. 542 00:26:48,315 --> 00:26:49,940 But I still have to talk to the caller. 543 00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:51,500 And then the person who was called on 544 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:54,350 is going to know why the caller called because there's probably 545 00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:57,300 been some sort of statement or confrontation about it. 546 00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:00,980 And that's just going to be embarrassing, no matter what. 547 00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:05,960 So let's talk a little bit about forced sterilization. 548 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,050 I know that it's not as prevalent now as it was. 549 00:27:10,050 --> 00:27:12,320 But can you explain what that was 550 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,600 and how, legally, that could happen? 551 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,510 - Yeah, absolutely. 552 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:17,730 I talked about this with my class for an hour and 40 553 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:19,610 minutes yesterday. 554 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:22,640 If you're interested, take Health, Wealth, and Power. 555 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,300 Yeah, so the history of forced sterilization in the United 556 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:28,760 States is really shocking to those 557 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:34,370 who maybe aren't familiar with this, that in the United 558 00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:36,735 States, forced sterili-- 559 00:27:36,735 --> 00:27:38,360 well, when we say forced sterilization, 560 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:42,890 what we're referring to is both men and women 561 00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:47,330 having their reproductive capacity surgically eliminated 562 00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:51,690 or limited without their full consent. 563 00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:54,410 So for men, that could look like vasectomies. 564 00:27:54,410 --> 00:27:58,190 For women, that could look like tubal ligations primarily. 565 00:27:58,190 --> 00:28:02,500 And in the United States for many years, the state, 566 00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:06,960 the government actively wrote forced sterilization 567 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,500 into the law, meaning that there were-- again, 568 00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,620 to return to the Supreme Court, there were Supreme Court cases, 569 00:28:13,620 --> 00:28:18,930 like that of Buck v. Bell, which said that states have the right 570 00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:22,650 to limit the reproductive capacity of those 571 00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:25,320 who are deemed unfit. 572 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,530 That unfitness could mean that someone 573 00:28:28,530 --> 00:28:34,470 had a physical disability, had a developmental disability, 574 00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,000 mental health issues. 575 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,960 Perhaps they were a criminal, because the belief 576 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,970 was that these traits, abstract traits that we would, today, 577 00:28:44,970 --> 00:28:46,950 not consider-- most of us wouldn't consider 578 00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:50,430 to be heritable, like intelligence or criminality, 579 00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:53,550 were considered to be things that would be passed down 580 00:28:53,550 --> 00:28:55,380 to one's children. 581 00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:59,010 So kids who ended up in juvenile facilities 582 00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:02,040 were often sterilized based on the belief 583 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,700 that it would be better for society if they 584 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:06,960 didn't have any more children. 585 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,450 And while those laws are no longer on the books, 586 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:18,470 we still see really recent cases of forced sterilization. 587 00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:21,050 I would highly recommend the documentary film, 588 00:29:21,050 --> 00:29:23,330 Belly of the Beast. 589 00:29:23,330 --> 00:29:27,650 It's about forced sterilization in California prisons 590 00:29:27,650 --> 00:29:33,370 just a few years ago, women that were going in for-- 591 00:29:33,370 --> 00:29:35,660 they might have a cyst on their ovaries 592 00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:40,460 or other relatively minor reproductive issues 593 00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:44,600 and wouldn't even be told that they had been sterilized. 594 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,197 - Wow. 595 00:29:45,197 --> 00:29:46,280 I will have to watch that. 596 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,550 - They would be told they need a full hysterectomy, which 597 00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:54,080 is the removal of the ovaries, the uterus, the fallopian 598 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,710 tubes without any actual medical reason for this, 599 00:29:57,710 --> 00:30:00,890 but, again, based on the idea that if a woman's in prison, 600 00:30:00,890 --> 00:30:02,180 she must be bad. 601 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:04,550 And she she's a bad mom and doesn't 602 00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:06,770 deserve to have any more children or have any. 603 00:30:06,770 --> 00:30:09,720 Some of the women had never had children at all. 604 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,790 So unfortunately, there's reports 605 00:30:13,790 --> 00:30:18,840 of forced sterilizations in ICE facilities, 606 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,490 Immigration and-- what is it? 607 00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:21,607 Immigration and-- 608 00:30:21,607 --> 00:30:23,190 - Immigration and Customs Enforcement. 609 00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:24,840 - Customs Enforcement. 610 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,800 Thank you. 611 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,660 In ICE facilities in Georgia in 2020, 2021. 612 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:34,350 - Well, and that kind of segues into the right of women to keep 613 00:30:34,350 --> 00:30:36,023 their children with them. 614 00:30:36,023 --> 00:30:37,440 We've been seeing this, especially 615 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,120 down on the southern border, where 616 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,620 children are being forcibly removed from their mothers. 617 00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:45,250 Well, kind of somewhat their fathers. 618 00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:47,100 But many of them come with their mothers. 619 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:49,640 But that's not isolated throughout our history. 620 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,050 That's happened quite often, hasn't it? 621 00:30:52,050 --> 00:30:52,620 - Yes. 622 00:30:52,620 --> 00:30:54,630 And I mean, if we look at-- 623 00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:57,630 Native American children were historically removed 624 00:30:57,630 --> 00:31:01,140 from their family, again, based on the idea that it would 625 00:31:01,140 --> 00:31:05,880 be better for them to assimilate to white culture 626 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,610 than to be raised in Native American cultures. 627 00:31:09,610 --> 00:31:12,820 And I think what you're getting at, which is really important, 628 00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:17,520 is that when we think about reproductive rights, 629 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,210 a term you might hear more today is reproductive justice 630 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:23,940 because it gets at what you're indicating, 631 00:31:23,940 --> 00:31:28,200 which is that we can't just think about things 632 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,970 like abortion and contraception, things that limit our ability 633 00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:37,120 to have children, and that we need that right, which we do. 634 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,990 I would argue that we absolutely do. 635 00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:41,330 But also, we deserve-- 636 00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:44,680 it's a human right to be able to have children 637 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,020 and to raise the children we have 638 00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:49,130 in safe and healthy environments. 639 00:31:49,130 --> 00:31:51,340 So when we think about forced sterilization 640 00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:53,830 and when we think about child removal, 641 00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:57,100 that's part of a reproductive justice framework 642 00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,590 because we have to protect the right of people 643 00:31:59,590 --> 00:32:01,660 to have and to raise their children, 644 00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:06,120 as well as to choose when and how many children to have. 645 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,040 - Well, that even dovetails into, 646 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,410 we have criminal justice agencies 647 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:12,330 at every level in the United States 648 00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:15,630 that don't have maternity policies, that you could 649 00:32:15,630 --> 00:32:17,250 be pulled out of working in a jail, 650 00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:20,220 you could be pulled working from patrol if you get pregnant, 651 00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:21,540 and you may not have a job. 652 00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:24,160 And that falls into that reproductive justice, 653 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,240 is you have to choose between your job, your career, 654 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,460 your livelihood, and having a child. 655 00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:31,860 And there is no protection for that. 656 00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:34,210 There's no legislative protection for that. 657 00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:34,710 - Right. 658 00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:36,720 Because there's some sort of implicit coercion 659 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,750 not to have children if you know that you'll 660 00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:44,760 be put on a desk or you're going to lose the opportunities 661 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,740 that you need to advance in your career. 662 00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:51,690 My aunt was an ironworker, Chicago. 663 00:32:51,690 --> 00:32:55,920 So she worked in super, super high buildings, clipped 664 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,490 to things, doing ironwork. 665 00:32:59,490 --> 00:33:03,090 And when she was pregnant, after a certain point, 666 00:33:03,090 --> 00:33:05,860 they told her she had to stop working because they literally 667 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:08,860 didn't make, like, Carhartts-- 668 00:33:08,860 --> 00:33:12,680 the guys did-- that would fit a pregnant body. 669 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,410 And so they were like, I guess you're 670 00:33:14,410 --> 00:33:16,310 done now until the baby's born. 671 00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:17,560 And she said, I don't want to. 672 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,430 I can't afford not to work. 673 00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:20,740 I can't afford to stop working. 674 00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:24,790 But because she was a woman in a job that's traditionally 675 00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:29,590 considered a masculine career, she was limited in that way. 676 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:30,130 - Yeah. 677 00:33:30,130 --> 00:33:31,630 Well, like I said, we see that all 678 00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:36,010 through public safety, EMTs, and some even health care workers. 679 00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:38,630 I mean, it's hard to work in the emergency room. 680 00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:40,990 So we do still see that. 681 00:33:40,990 --> 00:33:42,700 It's not always on the criminal side. 682 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:44,830 It could impact you professionally as well. 683 00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:46,730 It can impact your life. 684 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:48,550 And if you're victimized, obviously, it 685 00:33:48,550 --> 00:33:50,560 could impact there too. 686 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,980 - And those ideas are based on concepts 687 00:33:53,980 --> 00:33:56,680 about protecting women. 688 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,480 And we don't really see similar parallels with men, 689 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,680 even though there are definitely jobs that can 690 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,510 impact men's fertility as well. 691 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:11,949 But there have been a lot more restrictions 692 00:34:11,949 --> 00:34:15,850 on women's employment based on alleged concerns 693 00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:17,830 about the impacts on their fertility 694 00:34:17,830 --> 00:34:21,080 or the safety of their pregnancies, 695 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,989 which, again, it tells us something 696 00:34:22,989 --> 00:34:26,260 about the way we think about motherhood and fatherhood. 697 00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:28,210 And that harms men and women. 698 00:34:28,210 --> 00:34:29,020 - Right. 699 00:34:29,020 --> 00:34:30,040 It does. 700 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,139 Well, I think we're coming to the end of our time. 701 00:34:32,139 --> 00:34:34,900 Did you have any ideas you want to wrap up with, 702 00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,503 things that we haven't touched on yet that interest you? 703 00:34:38,503 --> 00:34:40,420 Or what are you watching out for in the future 704 00:34:40,420 --> 00:34:42,230 for your daughters? 705 00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:42,730 - Yeah. 706 00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:45,540 I mean, I realized after I had said this that I actually 707 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:49,650 misspoke when we were talking about the young girl in Indiana 708 00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:53,730 who was sexually assaulted, and then it was difficult for her 709 00:34:53,730 --> 00:34:54,670 to obtain an abortion. 710 00:34:54,670 --> 00:34:56,489 She was 11. 711 00:34:56,489 --> 00:34:59,440 And I remember that because my daughter is 11. 712 00:34:59,440 --> 00:34:59,940 - Right. 713 00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:06,780 - And the idea of my child, who can't go to bed without me 714 00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:09,690 reading her a book and tucking her in 715 00:35:09,690 --> 00:35:16,110 at night, being forced to continue a pregnancy literally 716 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:18,040 makes me feel sick. 717 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,240 So I think we can't, in Minnesota, 718 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,620 just rest on the assumption that we're protected here 719 00:35:25,620 --> 00:35:28,600 because there are ways that that can change. 720 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,910 And so I think that's what concerns me about my daughters. 721 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:35,460 And I know people with kids slightly older 722 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:41,835 than mine who said, I've started stockpiling Plan B 723 00:35:41,835 --> 00:35:44,820 because I'm afraid that it won't be available to my daughters 724 00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:46,660 when they need it. 725 00:35:46,660 --> 00:35:50,640 So I guess, yeah, thinking about the future 726 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,710 of reproductive justice for my children is concerning. 727 00:35:53,710 --> 00:35:56,520 Also, I'm very committed to working 728 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,870 with women who are in prison. 729 00:35:58,870 --> 00:36:03,090 And thinking about the reproductive rights 730 00:36:03,090 --> 00:36:05,610 and limitations for women who are incarcerated 731 00:36:05,610 --> 00:36:09,560 is also something that is really meaningful to me. 732 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,310 - Well, and it's almost scary, but we have to tell women now, 733 00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:15,775 when you apply for a job and they offer health insurance, 734 00:36:15,775 --> 00:36:17,150 you're going to have to ask them, 735 00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:19,670 will my health insurance cover contraception, because there 736 00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:21,950 are companies that can opt out of that now, 737 00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:24,320 which just seems illogical. 738 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,090 But yeah, there's a lot. 739 00:36:27,090 --> 00:36:28,340 Well, thank you, Dr. Harrison. 740 00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:29,970 I so appreciate your time. 741 00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:32,360 And I know you and I could talk for hours about this. 742 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,430 And you teach some awesome classes on this. 743 00:36:34,430 --> 00:36:36,000 But I thank you for your time. 744 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,500 - Yeah. 745 00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:37,355 Thank you so much. 746 00:36:37,355 --> 00:36:40,560 [UPBEAT MUSIC] 747 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:41,060 748 00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:44,450 - Thank you for listening to this episode of Let's Talk CJ 749 00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:45,500 podcast. 750 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,740 If you have suggestions for future episode topics, 751 00:36:48,740 --> 00:36:51,420 interviews, or other areas to cover, 752 00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:57,461 please email us at criminaljustice@mnsu.edu 753 00:36:57,461 --> 00:36:59,150 or visit our website. 754 00:36:59,150 --> 00:37:01,530 Join us next time for a new episode. 755 00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:03,940 And thank you for listening. 756 00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:06,000