WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.040 Matt: Kevin Geary, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.870 --> 00:00:03.919 Matt, thanks for having me. 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:04.669 Glad to be here. 00:00:05.140 --> 00:00:05.860 Geary. 00:00:05.890 --> 00:00:07.920 co, automaticcss. 00:00:08.309 --> 00:00:09.590 com, x. 00:00:09.769 --> 00:00:13.440 com, slash, thekevingeary, and forgot to put it up, youtube. 00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:17.979 com, slash, at kevingeary, I believe is your YouTube channel as well? 00:00:18.030 --> 00:00:20.339 YouTube is at gearyco, I believe. 00:00:20.405 --> 00:00:24.945 all things, bricks, all things scaling WordPress businesses, 00:00:25.355 --> 00:00:30.035 very opinion opinionated fellow on Gutenberg and WordPress at large. 00:00:30.415 --> 00:00:35.665 A lot of folks really wanted me to have this interview with you. 00:00:35.675 --> 00:00:40.915 You reached out right around the same time I was chatting with folks to 00:00:40.915 --> 00:00:42.445 talk about, having you on the show. 00:00:42.990 --> 00:00:46.810 And I was telling you before we hit record, just in all fairness to you, 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:55.950 there's a big debate on whether Kevin Geary likes WordPress or, or really 00:00:55.950 --> 00:00:57.950 supports the WordPress side of things. 00:00:58.330 --> 00:01:02.080 You, you come off on a very opinionated side. 00:01:02.090 --> 00:01:05.650 And I think you and I both have strong opinions and we would 00:01:05.650 --> 00:01:07.300 probably agree on a lot of things. 00:01:08.190 --> 00:01:13.110 The only thing I've ever taken, Taking a back from, and the only thing I was really 00:01:13.110 --> 00:01:17.970 like, man, this one really stung a little bit from just like the leader perspective, 00:01:17.970 --> 00:01:21.160 like being a leader in the space, somebody who has a lot of followers, somebody 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:26.000 who has a lot of, community, folks that follow him was the, the recent live 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.310 stream you did where, you know, you singled out one individual and sort of 00:01:29.570 --> 00:01:31.740 took apart his, sort of website build. 00:01:31.970 --> 00:01:32.850 That was the only thing. 00:01:33.170 --> 00:01:36.400 That I was really like, man, didn't really, that one didn't 00:01:36.410 --> 00:01:37.590 really fit good with me. 00:01:37.770 --> 00:01:41.250 Just like when Mullenweg called out and it made personal tax and you 00:01:41.250 --> 00:01:42.440 didn't even go that far, by the way. 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:47.510 But when I saw Mullenweg do something in his vein of like having an outburst 00:01:47.510 --> 00:01:50.560 and I'm not even calling your thing an outburst, but his outburst, I was 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:54.020 like, man, from a leader's perspective, left the bad taste in my mouth. 00:01:54.390 --> 00:01:57.630 I understand your passion for it. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.340 This is a long lead up and I want to give a long lead up because I've 00:02:01.340 --> 00:02:02.990 thought about this meeting for a while. 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:08.600 And a month or so ago, somebody was like, you don't really know Kevin and you've 00:02:08.600 --> 00:02:11.570 never taken his page builder one on one course and understood all the stuff. 00:02:12.070 --> 00:02:14.260 And I did, I took your page builder one on one course. 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:15.220 Fantastic. 00:02:15.860 --> 00:02:20.720 You are an advanced and intelligent individual on CSS. 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:22.110 And it was great. 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:24.900 I will admit I skipped some of the tech parts cause I'm not building 00:02:24.900 --> 00:02:28.820 websites anymore, you know, from the ground up, but a fantastic course. 00:02:29.870 --> 00:02:34.980 and I think that, you know, my perspective is maybe you're, and, 00:02:34.980 --> 00:02:37.730 and I'm not even saying this label, and we'll have this, this discussion. 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:43.100 Maybe you're misunderstood in, from the, the, the folks on the 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:44.550 Gutenberg side of the fence. 00:02:44.550 --> 00:02:46.760 Like, maybe they're just like, hey, they don't see the same passion. 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:50.140 Maybe they all should take the PageBuilder 101 course, and I think they should. 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:53.380 Because at first blush, I was like, oh, he's just an internet 00:02:53.380 --> 00:02:54.980 marketing guy who's got a course. 00:02:56.255 --> 00:02:58.205 And this is an advantage to his business. 00:02:58.905 --> 00:03:02.375 And then I took the course and I was like, Oh, he's no, he really knows his stuff. 00:03:02.375 --> 00:03:04.295 And he's, he, it is from the heart. 00:03:05.515 --> 00:03:09.505 One commenter said it's like being in the trenches and dodging bullets, 00:03:10.725 --> 00:03:14.175 which was funny, but it certainly sets the stage and the tone. 00:03:15.195 --> 00:03:22.185 And I wanted to give this opportunity to just chat about maybe why you think 00:03:22.205 --> 00:03:25.960 people Might you might rub people the wrong way because I think you even 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.270 fully admit it to and in in that course like hey This might not be for you. 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:30.020 I'm fast paced. 00:03:30.040 --> 00:03:30.920 I'm in your face. 00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:33.620 This might not be the thing for you. 00:03:34.130 --> 00:03:37.800 Anyway, this is a long preamble I am happy to have you here, but I did want 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:43.430 to just frame it with let's let's unpack the Kevin Geary that maybe some folks 00:03:43.580 --> 00:03:47.670 Don't see on Twitter and chat about that 00:03:48.890 --> 00:03:52.270 Kevin: Well, I'm very passionate about our industry. 00:03:52.420 --> 00:03:54.680 I'm very passionate about WordPress. 00:03:54.770 --> 00:03:59.360 I'm very passionate about the people that I serve, which is WordPress 00:03:59.370 --> 00:04:02.820 developers, web designers, whatever they want to call themselves. 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:08.120 but people working within the WordPress ecosystem and those people 00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:13.710 have families and those people have real lives and our tools. 00:04:13.910 --> 00:04:18.340 And the work that we do has a dramatic impact on the lives of those people. 00:04:18.760 --> 00:04:20.390 Those people have employees. 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:23.300 there's a lot of people that rely on WordPress. 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:27.660 There's a lot of people that rely on the work that we do in this ecosystem. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.330 There's a lot of clients that rely on the work that we do as 00:04:31.330 --> 00:04:35.150 well, who have real businesses and real families and real employees. 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:38.560 And so I've spent the last few years teaching. 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:43.920 What I consider to be best practices as I know them, paying a lot of 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:49.250 attention to details and to workmanship and to quality and accessibility. 00:04:49.650 --> 00:04:53.290 And I put this education out there for free. 00:04:53.670 --> 00:04:57.960 And in doing this, I've also realized some of the areas where 00:04:57.960 --> 00:05:03.210 we can improve workflows and I've built software and tools to fulfill. 00:05:03.545 --> 00:05:08.785 Those purposes, contrary to popular belief, the educate, the free education 00:05:08.795 --> 00:05:15.605 came first, the tools came second, the tools were built for the, gaping holes 00:05:15.625 --> 00:05:19.885 in people's workflow based on what we teach as far as best practices goes. 00:05:20.275 --> 00:05:20.605 Okay. 00:05:20.605 --> 00:05:23.245 So that's where I'm coming from. 00:05:23.695 --> 00:05:24.745 if anybody doubts. 00:05:25.395 --> 00:05:30.755 Whether I support WordPress or love WordPress or whatever, as an 00:05:30.765 --> 00:05:33.935 ecosystem, as a project, as a whatever. 00:05:34.465 --> 00:05:39.005 if I didn't like WordPress, I would actually not say anything. 00:05:39.175 --> 00:05:43.545 I would let WordPress continue down the path that it's currently going, 00:05:43.805 --> 00:05:48.305 because I don't think that that is a winning path, because I deeply. 00:05:48.575 --> 00:05:49.785 Love WordPress. 00:05:49.815 --> 00:05:52.885 And by the way, I've been using WordPress since 2005. 00:05:52.935 --> 00:05:56.035 so I've been around for a while, not new to WordPress. 00:05:56.405 --> 00:05:59.025 and you know, I want WordPress to survive. 00:05:59.535 --> 00:06:02.595 Most of my journey with WordPress has been. 00:06:02.965 --> 00:06:06.475 With this default understanding that WordPress is the dominating 00:06:06.835 --> 00:06:09.055 thing in, on the internet, right? 00:06:09.055 --> 00:06:12.865 So we, we all know the stat 43 percent of websites are powered by WordPress. 00:06:13.065 --> 00:06:17.685 That's been the understanding the, the entire, until now, until now, I know 00:06:17.685 --> 00:06:22.345 that that status still kind of sticking around, but the underlying stat of 00:06:22.355 --> 00:06:27.785 new projects started with WordPress is dramatically lower dramatically. 00:06:27.785 --> 00:06:30.675 And it's, and it's continuing to decline. 00:06:30.695 --> 00:06:32.175 And I think that there are very. 00:06:32.595 --> 00:06:35.015 clear reasons as to why this is. 00:06:35.315 --> 00:06:39.245 And it's become very clear to me that if something doesn't change, I don't 00:06:39.255 --> 00:06:44.655 think WordPress is going to continue to dominate, and that is a problem for me. 00:06:44.665 --> 00:06:48.065 It's a problem for all the people that I do work for. 00:06:48.085 --> 00:06:49.915 It's a problem for all of my clients. 00:06:49.925 --> 00:06:52.665 It's a problem for that entire ecosystem that I just talked about. 00:06:52.995 --> 00:06:56.935 And so I feel like if people don't start standing up and saying 00:06:56.935 --> 00:06:59.065 something, and saying something. 00:06:59.530 --> 00:07:04.140 A little bit loud because I've also recognized that WordPress does have a 00:07:04.150 --> 00:07:06.320 little bit of an echo chamber problem. 00:07:06.830 --> 00:07:11.790 and so I, I think if there isn't some counter leadership, let's call 00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:15.420 it, the, the changes that need to be made are not going to be made. 00:07:15.430 --> 00:07:15.790 So. 00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:21.200 but no, I 100 percent love WordPress and I'm 100 percent committed to WordPress. 00:07:21.210 --> 00:07:25.680 All of my products, all of my work is done on WordPress and for WordPress and 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:27.270 for people in the WordPress ecosystem. 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:29.020 So there should be no doubt there. 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:29.770 Yeah. 00:07:31.310 --> 00:07:37.380 Matt: You, I mean, I've made a career, a podcasting, audio career on being 00:07:37.380 --> 00:07:40.130 opinionated about WordPress largely from. 00:07:40.670 --> 00:07:42.500 the leadership perspective, right? 00:07:42.530 --> 00:07:47.100 Mullenweg, critical, been a critic of WordPress, both critical and positive. 00:07:47.100 --> 00:07:51.550 And, you know, I love WordPress, probably as much as, as you do. 00:07:51.950 --> 00:07:55.240 it's funny, I was talking to, probably a, a friend of, a shared friend of 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.530 ours, Mark, Zemanski about this stuff. 00:07:57.530 --> 00:08:01.970 And I was, I was like, Mark, you know, you know, I, I've been criticized from, 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:08.780 from my own content that I put out because let's face it, you and I are in probably 00:08:08.780 --> 00:08:13.570 the smaller, well certainly me cause I usually cover like business and, and 00:08:13.590 --> 00:08:15.060 community opinion and stuff like this. 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:17.940 You're in the more of the broader category because you're doing front end development 00:08:17.960 --> 00:08:20.620 and, and, and coding and stuff like that. 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.750 But largely the people who consume content for WordPress. 00:08:23.995 --> 00:08:25.645 Are like the pure developers. 00:08:25.705 --> 00:08:30.375 Hey man, just talk to me about JavaScript, PHP, HTML, CSS, my SQL 00:08:30.395 --> 00:08:32.335 database optimization and hosting. 00:08:32.595 --> 00:08:34.805 That's like the broad audience. 00:08:34.835 --> 00:08:36.965 And then, you know, when I come along and talk about business, 00:08:36.965 --> 00:08:37.985 they're like, get out of here. 00:08:38.755 --> 00:08:41.015 I don't want to, I don't care about how, how you build your 00:08:41.015 --> 00:08:42.825 million dollar plug in business. 00:08:42.825 --> 00:08:43.555 That's whatever. 00:08:43.935 --> 00:08:48.055 so I, I feel like we, we share that sort of same struggle of, you know, 00:08:48.055 --> 00:08:51.395 the, the community being like, ah, this content isn't for me. 00:08:52.255 --> 00:08:55.785 but I can certainly respect your, you know, your passion 00:08:55.785 --> 00:08:57.385 and, and your angle on it. 00:08:57.715 --> 00:09:04.065 Do you ever look at it as like from a content creators perspective, like 00:09:04.115 --> 00:09:08.355 I need to be different to stand out or this is just that passion just 00:09:08.365 --> 00:09:12.134 bleeding out all over the place when you're, when you're creating this stuff. 00:09:12.345 --> 00:09:13.855 Kevin: Yeah, I mean, nothing that I do. 00:09:13.885 --> 00:09:16.945 I mean, you can watch, I think people, well, I don't know. 00:09:16.975 --> 00:09:20.495 I mean, some people are good actors, but like, I don't have all 00:09:20.495 --> 00:09:22.195 the content I produce is just me. 00:09:22.445 --> 00:09:24.985 I can't, I'm not a good actor. 00:09:24.995 --> 00:09:28.535 Like I just, I turn on a camera and I, and I, and I record, 00:09:28.905 --> 00:09:31.865 99 percent of my videos are. 00:09:32.165 --> 00:09:34.075 mostly unedited, right? 00:09:34.175 --> 00:09:35.915 there, there'll be a little snippet here or there or 00:09:35.915 --> 00:09:38.095 whatever, but, mostly unedited. 00:09:38.105 --> 00:09:41.795 I do hours of live streaming every single, it's just, it would 00:09:41.805 --> 00:09:43.835 be too exhausting to, to act. 00:09:44.155 --> 00:09:46.495 and so I say what I say on my live streams. 00:09:46.525 --> 00:09:50.515 I say what I say in my videos and I say what I say on social media 00:09:50.545 --> 00:09:52.675 and it's all extremely consistent. 00:09:53.115 --> 00:09:54.675 and that's, that's just it. 00:09:54.755 --> 00:09:57.470 And I decided a long time ago, I was like, you know, you know, Cause 00:09:57.470 --> 00:10:01.270 when I first started making videos, I was actually a little worried. 00:10:01.270 --> 00:10:03.090 Like I, I held back a little bit. 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:05.260 and I was like, let's, let's button it up. 00:10:05.290 --> 00:10:07.510 Let's make it a little bit more corporate. 00:10:07.510 --> 00:10:08.770 Let's package it nicely. 00:10:08.780 --> 00:10:12.490 And, and I was just like, man, this is, it's too mentally 00:10:12.490 --> 00:10:13.800 and emotionally exhausting. 00:10:13.800 --> 00:10:17.990 It's way easier to turn on a camera and just be yourself and just do what you do. 00:10:18.165 --> 00:10:19.595 And publish it and that's it. 00:10:19.605 --> 00:10:21.015 And that's what I've lived by. 00:10:21.065 --> 00:10:24.825 you know, a few weeks in, I was like, no, not doing that anymore. 00:10:24.855 --> 00:10:26.885 And, it was just me from that point forward. 00:10:29.505 --> 00:10:33.815 Matt: When people, ask, let's talk about, the criticisms of Gutenberg. 00:10:33.835 --> 00:10:36.925 And, and again, I, I'm not saying you're wrong. 00:10:37.005 --> 00:10:42.305 I think what people are missing is there needs to be healthy debate. 00:10:42.315 --> 00:10:45.635 There needs to be healthy criticism on both sides of the fence. 00:10:45.635 --> 00:10:48.365 If it's just one person agreeing with everybody, the echo chamber, 00:10:48.365 --> 00:10:49.205 like you mentioned, then. 00:10:49.630 --> 00:10:51.280 It's just the same thing over and over again. 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:52.550 And there is no progress. 00:10:52.550 --> 00:10:55.090 Like there needs to be a little bit of what I'll call, 00:10:55.110 --> 00:10:57.070 you know, chaos that happens. 00:10:57.270 --> 00:11:01.640 And then out of that chaos, something new happens, whether you agree with 00:11:01.640 --> 00:11:04.800 it or not in this open source world, whether it's like, Hey, I don't 00:11:04.810 --> 00:11:06.020 like these features in Gutenberg. 00:11:06.020 --> 00:11:09.245 Well, This is the chaos that got us to this point and maybe there'll 00:11:09.445 --> 00:11:12.665 be more chaos that happens again that gets us to the next point. 00:11:12.675 --> 00:11:18.805 It's not a beautiful way to, to envision it, but sort of how I see open source or 00:11:19.355 --> 00:11:21.725 local politics, you know, to a degree. 00:11:22.195 --> 00:11:24.355 when people say, Hey man, like you've got some great ideas. 00:11:24.395 --> 00:11:26.125 Why not bring it to the leadership? 00:11:26.175 --> 00:11:31.925 Why not sit down with a meeting with Mullenweg or Rich Tabor or Anne McCarthy 00:11:31.925 --> 00:11:34.415 and say, Hey, I've got these notes. 00:11:34.485 --> 00:11:37.135 I've got these strong opinions on the software. 00:11:37.375 --> 00:11:41.375 Let me just go and have these one on one meetings or, you know, interview them 00:11:41.375 --> 00:11:42.845 on your channel or something like that. 00:11:42.925 --> 00:11:49.765 And sit down and have those more, what I'll say, relaxed debates versus The 00:11:49.765 --> 00:11:51.435 live streams or the Twitter threads? 00:11:52.575 --> 00:11:54.575 Kevin: I think it's a very simple answer to that. 00:11:54.595 --> 00:11:59.675 I've never been invited to any of those things, so it's not that I 00:11:59.675 --> 00:12:01.495 would reject them or decline them. 00:12:01.625 --> 00:12:07.515 I invited Matt to come on my live stream, which they had initially agreed to. 00:12:07.515 --> 00:12:09.955 We just, I think it was right before he went on his sabbatical, 00:12:09.955 --> 00:12:11.025 so it probably got lost. 00:12:11.155 --> 00:12:13.625 to reconnect and things like that. 00:12:13.625 --> 00:12:17.205 So, you know, Matt is open and, and that's one thing that I've actually 00:12:17.205 --> 00:12:22.155 praised Matt for a lot is his willingness to go on people's podcasts and live 00:12:22.155 --> 00:12:26.015 streams and do this stuff and answer questions and take criticism and take 00:12:26.015 --> 00:12:27.665 heat and, and have the conversations. 00:12:28.025 --> 00:12:31.855 so on that point, you know, I, I would give him maximum praise. 00:12:32.175 --> 00:12:35.265 you know, anybody that works on the project, if they invited me 00:12:35.265 --> 00:12:38.865 to conversations more than happy to, to have those conversations, 00:12:39.165 --> 00:12:43.745 a few people said that they would, I said, DM me, we'll set it up. 00:12:43.865 --> 00:12:44.325 It's very simple. 00:12:44.355 --> 00:12:45.805 Like I live stream every week. 00:12:45.845 --> 00:12:46.875 I mean, this is very open. 00:12:46.875 --> 00:12:48.045 It's very easy to get to me. 00:12:48.045 --> 00:12:49.455 I'm on podcasts all the time. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.580 They don't end up DMing me. 00:12:51.640 --> 00:12:54.300 and so, you know, that that's why it doesn't happen. 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:57.500 It's not that I'm avoiding it or not wanting it to happen. 00:12:57.800 --> 00:12:58.880 I'm welcome it. 00:12:58.920 --> 00:13:00.040 I a hundred percent welcome it. 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:05.420 every time that I've brought things up, mainly the reaction is why don't 00:13:05.430 --> 00:13:07.010 you become an official contributor? 00:13:07.010 --> 00:13:08.720 It's essentially like, why don't you come? 00:13:08.950 --> 00:13:09.950 Do free work for us. 00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:13.440 Why don't you come, put ideas in the voting pool and then wait on 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.905 them to happen and yada, yada, yada. 00:13:15.905 --> 00:13:18.670 And it's like, okay, that, that part of it, I'm not super interested in. 00:13:18.670 --> 00:13:20.400 Like I I'm building my own products. 00:13:20.400 --> 00:13:22.730 I have a full plate as it is. 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:24.340 but I do. 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:28.130 you know, I do love WordPress and I do love the direction that 00:13:28.150 --> 00:13:30.010 it, the potential that it has. 00:13:30.030 --> 00:13:30.350 Right? 00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:35.550 and my main concern right now is, is more than a feature request missing 00:13:35.550 --> 00:13:37.950 here or there or a slight adjustment. 00:13:38.140 --> 00:13:43.320 It's not something I can go into the contributors area, or get and 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:45.110 just write up something real quick. 00:13:45.450 --> 00:13:46.430 It's more about. 00:13:46.695 --> 00:13:52.005 The block editor being a fundamental departure from longstanding web 00:13:52.005 --> 00:13:53.875 design practices and principles. 00:13:53.895 --> 00:13:56.915 And you can't fix that with a feature request and you can't 00:13:56.925 --> 00:13:58.395 fix that with a contribution. 00:13:58.705 --> 00:14:02.485 the only way you can really get an understanding and a potential fix 00:14:02.495 --> 00:14:09.025 for that is through these kinds of conversations and public examples of. 00:14:10.010 --> 00:14:12.560 Asking what exactly is going on here? 00:14:12.570 --> 00:14:12.800 What? 00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:14.430 And what is the vision for this? 00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:16.420 And so that's the only way I've seen to do it. 00:14:16.470 --> 00:14:19.450 And, you know, anybody that wants to have discussions about it 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:20.870 further, I'm more than open to. 00:14:21.670 --> 00:14:25.850 Matt: Yeah, it's certainly one of the same things that I struggled with. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.250 You know, years ago, it was the same challenge, right? 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:32.350 Because I was critical of leadership. 00:14:32.350 --> 00:14:37.320 It was very difficult to, you know, get Matt on as a podcast guest. 00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:38.610 Little less. 00:14:39.330 --> 00:14:42.730 Challenging now, because I think he's seen that I'm a little bit more level 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:47.380 headed than some, not you, but others in the space who, who come up with really 00:14:47.380 --> 00:14:52.030 wild, allegations on, on the way he runs his business and decides things. 00:14:52.520 --> 00:14:54.530 and it's, it's a tough space. 00:14:54.920 --> 00:14:58.130 This is, I don't know if this is just the WordPress community or. 00:14:58.690 --> 00:14:59.690 Open source in general. 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:04.550 I spend most of my professional career in two different open source 00:15:04.550 --> 00:15:06.780 worlds, WordPress being the biggest. 00:15:06.780 --> 00:15:08.710 And then the other side is podcasting. 00:15:08.790 --> 00:15:10.745 There's a whole podcast thing called podcasting 2. 00:15:10.745 --> 00:15:10.750 0. 00:15:10.750 --> 00:15:11.550 It's an open source. 00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:13.340 Yeah. 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:17.180 it's a lot smaller obviously than, than WordPress, but it's the same like 00:15:17.180 --> 00:15:21.710 challenges of, there are people sort of at the top have been doing it for decades 00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:26.520 or started a project and then you kind of have to, you A little tug of war, a 00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:31.210 little back and forth to get attention and to get people to, whatever, validate 00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:32.830 your thoughts and your ideas to get there. 00:15:33.630 --> 00:15:37.350 but, you know, one of the practices, again, thanks to, to Mark, I, I complained 00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:41.700 about something with, getting to templates in, no, excuse me, getting to template 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.940 parts in, the site editor, right? 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:46.810 Because it's tucked away in, like, the patterns library or something like that. 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:50.830 And I was like, why can't I just use Command K to get there? 00:15:50.830 --> 00:15:52.890 I mean, there's a whole point of this Command K thing. 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:54.120 what is to get there? 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.300 And, you know, whatever. 00:15:56.025 --> 00:15:57.375 Ranted on Twitter or something like that. 00:15:57.375 --> 00:15:59.880 And he was like, put your money where your mouth is and , you know, and go to GitHub. 00:15:59.900 --> 00:16:00.975 So I was like, okay, fine. 00:16:01.215 --> 00:16:03.945 So I, I went to GitHub and I said, here's the issue. 00:16:04.125 --> 00:16:08.560 I want to get to template parts inside of, the command palette, command K. 00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:10.815 And, you know, sure enough, somebody picked up on it. 00:16:10.815 --> 00:16:13.905 I think actually somebody else, you know, Brian Cord, which, mm-Hmm. 00:16:14.145 --> 00:16:17.180 . Part of the, part of the discussion today, Brian Cords picked up on it, wrote. 00:16:17.945 --> 00:16:21.525 Actually some code to pull it up in the, in the command palette. 00:16:21.535 --> 00:16:24.945 And I think it's coming to six, six, maybe six, seven in the future. 00:16:24.945 --> 00:16:29.505 But the idea is, is like, yeah, I can understand like these huge, massive. 00:16:29.925 --> 00:16:33.095 shifts in the way the software is, is being developed 00:16:33.095 --> 00:16:34.795 might be too much for that. 00:16:35.185 --> 00:16:39.945 but I think there could be some inroads there if, if spent with the right people. 00:16:40.075 --> 00:16:42.365 And maybe it's them inviting you, or you inviting them. 00:16:42.415 --> 00:16:44.065 I think there can be some movements there. 00:16:44.245 --> 00:16:46.635 Cause I, I do think that is one of the greatest strengths 00:16:46.635 --> 00:16:48.045 that we have in WordPress. 00:16:48.335 --> 00:16:49.705 Is that you can leave a mark. 00:16:49.705 --> 00:16:50.625 It's gonna be tough. 00:16:51.260 --> 00:16:56.340 At first, but I think you have the audience and the respect 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:58.180 enough to, to have those meetings. 00:16:58.190 --> 00:17:01.590 So it's unfortunate that they haven't cycled, cycled back to you to book those. 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:06.180 But, I think it can go both ways where a little bit of maybe spend a 00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:09.550 little time in GitHub and leave some comments and then they go, okay, fine. 00:17:09.550 --> 00:17:10.210 This guy gets it. 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:13.110 And now there's some connection there. 00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:15.050 I think it'd be better for, for everyone. 00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:19.300 Kevin: Yeah, I think, building bridges is always good, right? 00:17:19.300 --> 00:17:22.040 So if it has to start small, then it has to start small. 00:17:22.410 --> 00:17:23.790 you know, shout out to Brian. 00:17:23.800 --> 00:17:28.600 Brian's been probably one of the most responsive on that side of the 00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:34.070 aisle to various pieces of feedback, discussions, vocal, vocalization. 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:35.770 it's been, it's been great. 00:17:35.770 --> 00:17:37.040 And I really appreciate that. 00:17:37.050 --> 00:17:40.040 So I do think, I do think we need more of that. 00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:44.510 but it goes back to, and a lot of what I've been talking about lately is, is this 00:17:44.850 --> 00:17:50.790 concept of the vision of the block editor and the ideal user of the block editor. 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.467 And I just have a feeling and you know, it's kind of written in 00:17:55.467 --> 00:17:58.502 their mission statement that this is for everybody and democratizing 00:17:58.502 --> 00:18:00.020 publishing and yada, yada, yada. 00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:04.290 But if you, if you build software with a faulty premise, it can't 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:06.110 really ever become good software. 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:07.910 And I just feel like the. 00:18:08.455 --> 00:18:11.605 The premise of who the block editor is for is faulty. 00:18:11.645 --> 00:18:15.405 And so they, they, they're designing it for a beginner. 00:18:15.435 --> 00:18:18.675 They are designing it for, it's kind of the same like as the Wix audience. 00:18:18.675 --> 00:18:21.915 It's like anybody off the street should be able to open up WordPress 00:18:21.915 --> 00:18:25.755 and feel comfortable assembling pages or doing whatever they're doing. 00:18:25.775 --> 00:18:27.125 And it's just never going to happen. 00:18:27.145 --> 00:18:30.915 It's, it's not, it's not, that's a faulty premise that you, the idea that. 00:18:31.305 --> 00:18:35.475 I always use my mom as an example, the idea that my mom can spin up 00:18:35.475 --> 00:18:39.775 WordPress and open the block editor and start assembling pages is lunacy. 00:18:39.825 --> 00:18:41.375 It's not even close to reality. 00:18:41.695 --> 00:18:44.965 it doesn't matter how simplified you make it, how much you dumb it down. 00:18:44.965 --> 00:18:46.285 It just doesn't matter. 00:18:46.285 --> 00:18:47.925 She's never going to be able to do that. 00:18:48.285 --> 00:18:50.635 And so if you build software for her. 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:53.080 The people who are going to suffer is everybody. 00:18:53.110 --> 00:18:54.370 Everybody's going to suffer. 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:55.760 I think my mom can't do it. 00:18:55.780 --> 00:18:58.780 And then everybody else is frustrated with it because of what you've done to 00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:00.220 try to make it so that she can do it. 00:19:00.620 --> 00:19:03.430 And that's kind of what I feel the block editor has been doing. 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:08.440 and, it's even, even over simplification beyond what Wix does 00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:10.430 in terms of simplifying web design. 00:19:10.860 --> 00:19:15.310 And it's insanely frustrating for people who know the language of web design. 00:19:15.320 --> 00:19:19.170 So if you know the language of web design and you open the block editor, 00:19:19.555 --> 00:19:20.855 This is a fundamental departure. 00:19:20.865 --> 00:19:24.085 You have no idea what to do, where to start or what's going on. 00:19:24.565 --> 00:19:27.635 and that's a, that to me is a big problem. 00:19:28.025 --> 00:19:30.385 I'm not opposed to evolution. 00:19:30.415 --> 00:19:32.275 I'm not opposed to innovation. 00:19:32.685 --> 00:19:36.825 if there is a, if there's a fundamental departure from standard 00:19:36.825 --> 00:19:41.145 practices and somebody can say, look, I get it, this is brand new. 00:19:42.505 --> 00:19:43.525 looks way different. 00:19:43.865 --> 00:19:46.215 but we did it for very good reasons. 00:19:46.225 --> 00:19:51.085 It actually, when you learn it, it is, it's going to insanely improve how you 00:19:51.085 --> 00:19:54.525 build websites and maintainability, scalability, et cetera, whatever 00:19:54.525 --> 00:19:56.185 else that we actually care about. 00:19:56.425 --> 00:19:58.595 It's going to do wonders for all of these things. 00:19:58.765 --> 00:20:01.805 So just be patient, give it a second and let me walk you through it. 00:20:01.955 --> 00:20:04.875 If that is the pitch, I have no problem with that. 00:20:05.075 --> 00:20:08.695 In fact, automatic CSS has done many things to innovate workflows. 00:20:08.725 --> 00:20:09.895 And I tell people that all the time. 00:20:09.895 --> 00:20:11.455 I'm like, look, just be patient with this. 00:20:11.465 --> 00:20:12.465 It's going to be brand new. 00:20:12.465 --> 00:20:13.365 It's a new concept. 00:20:13.375 --> 00:20:17.035 Nobody's doing this, but here are the advantages to doing it this way. 00:20:17.645 --> 00:20:20.655 I feel like the block editor has made a fundamental departure from 00:20:20.655 --> 00:20:22.205 the best practices of web design. 00:20:22.520 --> 00:20:27.930 And has not been able to list a single advantage other than, well, your mom 00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:31.620 can use it a little bit easier than a normal, you know, environment. 00:20:32.070 --> 00:20:33.900 And that's not gonna, that doesn't cut it. 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:34.740 That doesn't cut it. 00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:36.440 So that's been my main objection. 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.740 Now, if anybody wants to come in and say, no, no, no, here are the. 00:20:39.910 --> 00:20:42.910 Here are the dramatic advantages that you get, but they're, they're 00:20:42.910 --> 00:20:44.210 really, I've, I've looked at it. 00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:47.200 I mean, I've tried to look at it objectively and I haven't identified 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.600 any, you take an environment where if you want to compare it to something 00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:56.210 like bricks, where everything can be done in bricks that needs to be done. 00:20:56.520 --> 00:20:59.110 And then you compare to the block editor where it's like, well, now, I mean, 00:20:59.110 --> 00:21:00.760 we've got to introduce new languages. 00:21:00.760 --> 00:21:02.460 We've got to introduce Jason files. 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:04.100 We've got to introduce VS code. 00:21:04.100 --> 00:21:05.540 We've got to custom blocks. 00:21:05.540 --> 00:21:09.400 We've got, I mean, man, we're taking something that could be unified. 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:13.060 And we're spreading it out across multiple different tools and languages. 00:21:13.360 --> 00:21:16.770 That doesn't seem easier or better or faster for anybody. 00:21:17.030 --> 00:21:21.030 and so it's fundamental problems like that, that I've continued to bring up. 00:21:21.550 --> 00:21:26.150 Where the vision just doesn't seem to, it's not capable of 00:21:26.150 --> 00:21:28.770 leading to a great conclusion. 00:21:29.050 --> 00:21:31.705 And that's where I start to get very worried and I'm like, I don't know. 00:21:31.865 --> 00:21:33.635 Are we going in the right direction with this? 00:21:33.775 --> 00:21:37.025 And then you see the decline in new projects being started with WordPress, and 00:21:37.055 --> 00:21:41.345 you start to wonder, is it because of this direction that, that WordPress has gone? 00:21:41.825 --> 00:21:43.485 That's why we need to have the conversation. 00:21:44.185 --> 00:21:44.475 Matt: Yeah. 00:21:45.205 --> 00:21:51.190 One of the things that I've said, and whether you're, you know, Bricks user 00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:55.855 or Elementor or whatever, like other page builder you have, I think one 00:21:55.855 --> 00:21:59.175 of the great things, and, and want your thoughts on this, obviously, is 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.870 I feel like the, the page builders have won, right? 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:07.200 You know, you, you have Bricks and you have WordPress that'll 00:22:07.210 --> 00:22:10.450 integrate into, into, you have Bricks that'll integrate into WordPress. 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:11.930 You have Elementor, Beaver Builder, whatever. 00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:13.460 Like, you can put these tools on top. 00:22:14.735 --> 00:22:17.925 And WordPress continues to flourish, right? 00:22:17.925 --> 00:22:20.145 Or, or we need WordPress to continue to thrive. 00:22:20.605 --> 00:22:22.795 So haven't we already won? 00:22:22.795 --> 00:22:26.665 We being, let's say the page builder community, haven't we already won just 00:22:26.785 --> 00:22:31.735 for the sheer fact that we're able to build a bricks tool and then your tool on 00:22:31.735 --> 00:22:35.705 top of all these other tools, like, isn't that already a winning scenario or does. 00:22:36.305 --> 00:22:40.975 WordPress need to fundamentally shift along with all of these tools continuing 00:22:40.975 --> 00:22:43.785 to, to flourish at the same time. 00:22:44.225 --> 00:22:45.255 Kevin: It's a really good question. 00:22:45.325 --> 00:22:49.415 no, we, we have one by, by the, this is open source. 00:22:49.465 --> 00:22:50.545 This is the wild west. 00:22:50.565 --> 00:22:52.235 We can do whatever we want with WordPress. 00:22:52.265 --> 00:22:53.975 That's, that's the best part about it. 00:22:54.525 --> 00:22:58.555 WordPress is number one advantage is being open source, not just in its 00:22:58.565 --> 00:23:01.485 flexibility, but in the ownership of data. 00:23:01.690 --> 00:23:02.000 Right? 00:23:02.040 --> 00:23:05.470 Like that actually matters most to me is the ownership of data. 00:23:05.820 --> 00:23:06.930 so I control my data. 00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:11.020 I own my data that I can't go to Webflow and say that I can't go to Shopify and 00:23:11.020 --> 00:23:12.730 say that I can't go to Wix and say that. 00:23:12.790 --> 00:23:13.170 Okay? 00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:15.140 so that is the number one advantage. 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.100 And I actually firmly believe that if that advantage didn't exist, WordPress 00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:21.330 was beat and defeated a long time ago. 00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:23.690 but it does have that going for it, which is awesome. 00:23:23.870 --> 00:23:24.370 amazing. 00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:26.830 That's why, that's why I've been in WordPress for so long and 00:23:26.830 --> 00:23:28.280 continue to stay in WordPress. 00:23:29.360 --> 00:23:30.840 So, that's fantastic. 00:23:31.020 --> 00:23:36.510 The problem is, the wild west of WordPress does not align 00:23:36.510 --> 00:23:38.640 with the vision of for everyone. 00:23:38.810 --> 00:23:42.600 it, it, it, except, so there's a caveat to the for everyone thing. 00:23:42.860 --> 00:23:44.284 PageBuilding 101. 00:23:44.785 --> 00:23:47.465 It's actually the joke is that it's not a one on one course. 00:23:47.465 --> 00:23:49.705 It's actually, it's like two Oh one three Oh one four. 00:23:49.705 --> 00:23:51.115 It's all baked in the, but it's called, 00:23:51.125 --> 00:23:52.615 Matt: yeah, it's, it's a pretty intense, 00:23:52.665 --> 00:23:53.575 Kevin: it's a pretty intense course. 00:23:54.955 --> 00:23:55.885 Make it appealing to people. 00:23:55.885 --> 00:23:57.485 But I tell them at the beginning, I'm like, I'm not going to 00:23:57.485 --> 00:23:58.525 treat you like an idiot. 00:23:58.555 --> 00:24:02.140 I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like, You know, baby, you through this 00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:05.060 thing, I'm going to tell you and teach you what you need to know. 00:24:05.060 --> 00:24:06.670 And we're going to cover advanced topics. 00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:09.650 And I'm going to do my absolute best to make you able to 00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:10.860 absorb it and understand it. 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.720 but you are going to learn everything you need to know, to be more 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.600 advanced than most of the people building websites on WordPress. 00:24:17.620 --> 00:24:17.930 Okay. 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:20.760 So that's what I told people at the beginning of page building one on one. 00:24:21.040 --> 00:24:24.930 So the question is, is page building one on one for everyone? 00:24:25.155 --> 00:24:30.095 And the answer is yes, but it's for everyone who wants to do the work. 00:24:30.315 --> 00:24:34.125 It's not for people who want to click an easy button and magic appears. 00:24:34.315 --> 00:24:39.335 It's for people who want to learn web design and practice web design and 00:24:39.335 --> 00:24:41.085 care about quality and workmanship. 00:24:41.115 --> 00:24:42.315 That's who it's for now. 00:24:42.885 --> 00:24:44.695 So does that describe everybody? 00:24:44.725 --> 00:24:46.805 I don't know, but anybody can come in. 00:24:46.965 --> 00:24:47.355 All right. 00:24:47.365 --> 00:24:49.685 But not everybody's going to make it through probably. 00:24:50.055 --> 00:24:51.455 So WordPress. 00:24:52.065 --> 00:24:56.845 You can't say, well, Kevin's mom is going to be able to come in here. 00:24:57.035 --> 00:24:59.675 If it's the wild west, it's already a wrap. 00:24:59.695 --> 00:25:00.605 She's already done. 00:25:00.615 --> 00:25:03.775 You already lost because if you think about onboarding somebody into 00:25:03.775 --> 00:25:05.615 software, you onboard somebody into Wix. 00:25:06.155 --> 00:25:07.825 Very streamlined experience. 00:25:07.835 --> 00:25:09.425 Welcome to Wix. 00:25:09.525 --> 00:25:10.495 Here's our editor. 00:25:10.625 --> 00:25:11.565 Here's our templates. 00:25:11.675 --> 00:25:14.605 Here's our, this, here's our, that here's education on how to 00:25:14.605 --> 00:25:15.905 do this and how to get going. 00:25:16.465 --> 00:25:19.685 My mom can probably do some of that, right? 00:25:19.695 --> 00:25:21.715 Choose a template, change some content, whatever. 00:25:22.375 --> 00:25:25.765 But you come into WordPress and what is the onboarding flow for WordPress? 00:25:25.775 --> 00:25:28.495 First of all, you have to install it on a server that you 00:25:28.555 --> 00:25:30.265 have already set up and own. 00:25:30.275 --> 00:25:32.205 Thankfully they have one click install, but we're already 00:25:32.205 --> 00:25:33.285 at like, what's the server? 00:25:33.415 --> 00:25:33.995 What's this? 00:25:33.995 --> 00:25:34.485 What's that? 00:25:34.485 --> 00:25:34.785 Okay. 00:25:35.065 --> 00:25:38.335 So then we get into WordPress, into the dashboard and now it's okay. 00:25:38.345 --> 00:25:40.324 Your first step is you need to choose a theme. 00:25:40.325 --> 00:25:43.845 Well, it's actually not just the design and layout. 00:25:43.845 --> 00:25:46.575 It's the actual architecture built into the theme. 00:25:46.575 --> 00:25:50.325 So different themes are going to give you different options and 00:25:50.325 --> 00:25:54.445 different ways of approaching how this website is built in and designed. 00:25:54.775 --> 00:25:55.115 Okay. 00:25:55.155 --> 00:25:58.025 Well, that just, you just sent that person down a rabbit hole of, 00:25:58.025 --> 00:26:00.535 well, what are the pros and cons of this theme versus that theme? 00:26:00.535 --> 00:26:03.065 And, oh, we got block themes and we got non block themes. 00:26:03.065 --> 00:26:05.545 We've got, oh my gosh, this is insane to a beginner. 00:26:06.105 --> 00:26:07.735 And then it's like, well, what do I do next? 00:26:07.735 --> 00:26:11.065 Well, you actually have to extend WordPress because a lot of functionality 00:26:11.065 --> 00:26:12.605 comes through these things called plugins. 00:26:12.605 --> 00:26:14.765 And so there's a gazillion plugins to choose. 00:26:14.765 --> 00:26:15.975 Well, which plugins do I need? 00:26:15.975 --> 00:26:18.525 Well, we have to have some conversations about that, don't we? 00:26:18.715 --> 00:26:20.315 And so now they're down another rabbit. 00:26:20.315 --> 00:26:25.125 I mean, this is days of just investigating and weighing options. 00:26:25.125 --> 00:26:28.805 And you know, this is assumed you even understand the pros and cons of the 00:26:28.805 --> 00:26:31.045 ramifications of what is going on here. 00:26:31.375 --> 00:26:32.335 This is not. 00:26:32.495 --> 00:26:34.125 A for everybody platform. 00:26:34.135 --> 00:26:37.695 It never it's for anybody who wants to come in and go through 00:26:37.695 --> 00:26:39.325 the learning curve for sure. 00:26:39.455 --> 00:26:39.795 Right. 00:26:40.065 --> 00:26:44.035 But this idea that we should then craft the main editor, the block 00:26:44.035 --> 00:26:49.365 editor as if somebody day one fresh off the street should be able to use 00:26:49.365 --> 00:26:51.225 it without without learning anything. 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:53.880 The entire platform has to be learned. 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:58.600 The entire ecosystem has to be understood before you can do anything in WordPress. 00:26:58.900 --> 00:27:03.000 So the idea that we should have a completely dumbed down editor 00:27:03.070 --> 00:27:06.210 that departs completely from the fundamentals of web design and 00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:12.100 frustrates most advanced web design users, that it seems like a, a mismatch. 00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:14.900 And it also seems like, you know, the vision doesn't compute. 00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.230 And for some reason it's like, why haven't they. 00:27:17.510 --> 00:27:21.200 Realize that that vision doesn't compute in an ecosystem like WordPress. 00:27:22.030 --> 00:27:26.330 Matt: Yeah, you know, I, I seen the recent numbers about like the decline of 00:27:26.330 --> 00:27:30.890 new installs and I don't know, I think it's, I mean, listen, I have no idea, 00:27:31.090 --> 00:27:35.410 opinion just like everybody else, but, I think it's a, is it a lagging indicator? 00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:36.700 Like we're, we're catching up. 00:27:37.270 --> 00:27:43.110 To the tail end of everyone of evacuating WordPress when Gutenberg came out. 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:47.890 And then a couple of years after that, we had COVID where everybody spiked to going 00:27:47.890 --> 00:27:49.810 to WordPress and other web platforms. 00:27:49.810 --> 00:27:51.170 Cause everyone was at home building stuff. 00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:52.910 Everybody, Oh shit, I need a website now. 00:27:53.100 --> 00:27:53.380 Right. 00:27:53.410 --> 00:27:56.930 You did like when I was in business, I was at ran an agency for a decade. 00:27:57.430 --> 00:27:59.140 It's been, I've been out of, out of it now for. 00:27:59.900 --> 00:28:03.510 I don't know, like seven years, but when COVID hit people, people, I was trying to 00:28:03.510 --> 00:28:07.870 sell websites through back in 2010 were calling me up going, I need that website. 00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:11.360 Now I'm like, where the hell were you when I was trying to get you that website? 00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:15.030 but I think this is like the lab, maybe anyway, lagging indicator of 00:28:15.030 --> 00:28:18.680 like the, the real techies who were in WordPress who left when Gutenberg hit. 00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:22.760 And then we had like this weird fluctuation of, of data from, from COVID. 00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:25.040 And I think it like, maybe it'll plateau. 00:28:25.470 --> 00:28:27.580 I think, well, let me ask you this. 00:28:27.610 --> 00:28:28.930 Do you think it's as easy? 00:28:30.310 --> 00:28:34.100 Do you think it's an easy fix for WordPress to just say advanced 00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:38.050 mode, easy mode, easy mode enables the site editor advanced mode. 00:28:38.050 --> 00:28:39.050 You can just shut it off. 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:42.230 And it's now just a framework like it was. 00:28:42.855 --> 00:28:45.215 10 years ago, pages, posts, custom post types. 00:28:45.215 --> 00:28:47.215 Let me go nuts and let me bring in my own page builder. 00:28:47.375 --> 00:28:50.145 Do you think it's easy enough for them to just go easy mode, advanced 00:28:50.145 --> 00:28:52.295 mode and advanced mode, you can just shut all this stuff off. 00:28:52.295 --> 00:28:55.185 And we're back to like this blank canvas framework. 00:28:55.185 --> 00:28:56.005 Like we used to, 00:28:57.025 --> 00:29:00.285 Kevin: yeah, I, I, I mean, I don't know how easy it is from like 00:29:00.285 --> 00:29:01.815 an architectural perspective. 00:29:01.815 --> 00:29:05.485 I don't think anything's easy now because they've got, you know, FSC 00:29:05.745 --> 00:29:09.955 and the, the UIs are a complete departure from one another. 00:29:09.965 --> 00:29:12.765 We have to bring a lot of cohesiveness in. 00:29:13.080 --> 00:29:15.350 and then yes, we do need to talk about. 00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:20.370 Advanced users versus beginners and making the experience because it's, 00:29:20.470 --> 00:29:21.850 you don't really have to pick one. 00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:25.260 You can, you can build a tool that has all of the necessary 00:29:25.260 --> 00:29:26.500 controls for advanced users. 00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:31.710 But then we have to get into this idea of there is two big camps, right? 00:29:31.730 --> 00:29:35.580 There's the camp of I love to live in VS code. 00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:38.680 I want to create, I want to write my own custom blocks. 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:40.090 I want to use tailwinds. 00:29:40.300 --> 00:29:42.430 I want to do, I want to do all this stuff in VS code. 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:47.635 And then it just appears in Versus The other side of the aisle, which is Nope. 00:29:48.005 --> 00:29:49.405 I want to do everything in a UI. 00:29:49.615 --> 00:29:51.405 I want to do everything in a page builder. 00:29:51.405 --> 00:29:55.745 We have this concept of page building now, and that's where I choose 00:29:55.765 --> 00:29:57.795 and prefer to do all of my work. 00:29:58.165 --> 00:30:00.505 so those, that situation has to be handled. 00:30:00.515 --> 00:30:02.895 Now WordPress can support both of those for sure. 00:30:03.315 --> 00:30:06.765 But on the UI side, I think the developers can continue to do what developers do. 00:30:06.855 --> 00:30:09.155 I mean, they're, they're able to do that in VS code. 00:30:09.155 --> 00:30:11.745 They can do all the work they want is same old workflow, whatever. 00:30:12.185 --> 00:30:15.075 It's really the UI side of things that we're talking about here. 00:30:15.210 --> 00:30:20.330 And so people that use page builders want a specific experience. 00:30:20.620 --> 00:30:22.890 Elementor was the, one of the first page builders. 00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:25.130 Divi was obviously one of the first page builders. 00:30:25.340 --> 00:30:30.120 they kind of introduced this whole concept and proved that, Hey, you can actually do 00:30:30.120 --> 00:30:33.670 work like this and you can build entire sites and it's a good experience and, 00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:35.630 and we've come a long way since then. 00:30:35.630 --> 00:30:35.970 Right. 00:30:36.370 --> 00:30:40.920 but if WordPress is, you know, WordPress had the option of, okay, well, we're 00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:42.850 going to do something page building like. 00:30:43.120 --> 00:30:44.000 That's native. 00:30:44.510 --> 00:30:46.260 Should it be along those lines? 00:30:46.450 --> 00:30:51.220 And should we give advanced users, people who know the language of web design, all 00:30:51.230 --> 00:30:56.120 the controls and power that they need at their fingertips and WordPress flat 00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:58.890 out said, no, we should not do that. 00:30:59.135 --> 00:31:04.545 We should, we should only serve absolute beginners with this UI. 00:31:04.715 --> 00:31:07.165 And anybody that wants to do anything beyond this is going to 00:31:07.175 --> 00:31:09.315 have to extend the block editor. 00:31:09.575 --> 00:31:13.035 And by the way, in order to do that, they just isolated all these page 00:31:13.035 --> 00:31:15.345 builder people, because if you don't. 00:31:15.730 --> 00:31:18.870 Do work in VS code and you don't understand multiple languages. 00:31:19.070 --> 00:31:24.690 You are excluded from participating in that custom block building, extending the 00:31:24.690 --> 00:31:29.120 block editor side of things that at least it's, that's a big jump to get there. 00:31:29.180 --> 00:31:29.520 Right. 00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:34.130 and so now what we have is a product where a lot of people. 00:31:34.250 --> 00:31:38.620 There's a, I mean, look at the size of Elementor, look at the size of Divi, look 00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:40.360 at the size of the page building world. 00:31:40.620 --> 00:31:44.480 They feel like the block editor was not built for them. 00:31:44.540 --> 00:31:48.210 Like they were excluded from being considered in the 00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:49.660 development of the block editor. 00:31:49.860 --> 00:31:54.190 That is an isolation of a, of a large part of the WordPress ecosystem. 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:56.560 And I don't think that that was a great decision. 00:31:56.570 --> 00:32:00.820 Not involving people who use page builders in the vision for the 00:32:00.820 --> 00:32:02.760 block editor, I think was a huge. 00:32:03.035 --> 00:32:06.875 step backwards for WordPress and has created a lot of this tension. 00:32:08.805 --> 00:32:09.035 Matt: Yeah. 00:32:09.035 --> 00:32:13.465 I mean, I, it goes back to, you know, some of the stuff we will, we'll talk about and 00:32:13.475 --> 00:32:15.905 stuff you already mentioned, stuff we'll, we'll talk about in a minute, but like 00:32:15.915 --> 00:32:22.265 Wix and Squarespace, no code tools again, you know, I, I think a lot of this, again, 00:32:22.265 --> 00:32:26.655 I have no answers, just pontificate, just like everybody else, but I remember 00:32:26.655 --> 00:32:32.735 years ago thinking about, like remember the Avada theme and visual composer, 00:32:32.755 --> 00:32:34.785 my God, those things were terrible. 00:32:34.925 --> 00:32:35.125 Kevin: Yeah. 00:32:35.525 --> 00:32:36.295 Matt: They were terrible. 00:32:36.295 --> 00:32:37.465 And as an agency owner. 00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:40.370 You know, you get somebody knocks on the door and they're like, yeah, this, you 00:32:40.370 --> 00:32:44.030 know, this person, down the street, my cousin's neighbor's boyfriend built me 00:32:44.030 --> 00:32:47.770 this site and, I don't want to pay any money, but he built me this site and 00:32:47.770 --> 00:32:50.460 here it is, it's, and you boot it up and it's Avada and you're just like, what 00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:54.970 the hell, like, I have to tear this thing apart and I think we had a real issue with 00:32:55.320 --> 00:33:01.800 WordPress being fragmented and it's, it's a big debate to also like sit back and 00:33:01.800 --> 00:33:07.110 say, okay, What are the motives of, say, Automatic and open source WordPress, and 00:33:07.370 --> 00:33:13.870 is this really a, cohesive way to, to get, whatever, free labor and free research 00:33:13.870 --> 00:33:17.190 and development for the betterment of Automatic, which I don't believe, like, 00:33:17.190 --> 00:33:23.740 I believe that Matt Mullenweg really is, A huge advocate for, for open source and 00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:28.140 I think he'll do anything he can to, to also keep WordPress open source, even from 00:33:28.170 --> 00:33:30.600 investors in automatic, yada, yada, yada. 00:33:30.610 --> 00:33:36.330 But I think what he realized was we have a frag, fragmentation issue and I can't 00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:41.760 make this nice, cohesive iOS and Apple ecosystem like experience with WordPress. 00:33:42.205 --> 00:33:47.565 If I don't, if there isn't a major shift like this, in order to get people to, to 00:33:47.565 --> 00:33:52.865 stay on just what's the most base level of WordPress I can, I can give them that'll 00:33:52.865 --> 00:33:55.785 allow them not, or give them the ability to do all this stuff without having to go 00:33:55.785 --> 00:33:58.945 and get Elementor and then Gravity Forms and then all this other stuff, you're 00:33:59.165 --> 00:34:02.385 building all those things, and that's where, that's where his real monetization 00:34:02.385 --> 00:34:04.235 comes in, which is Jetpack, right? 00:34:04.255 --> 00:34:07.645 Like if I can give somebody the basic framework to build a 00:34:07.645 --> 00:34:09.935 website easily, that's a win. 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.130 It's just taken like 10 damn years to get there and we're still not 00:34:14.130 --> 00:34:15.630 even like crossing that bridge yet. 00:34:17.015 --> 00:34:21.275 It's not, it's not easy to solve that, but I, I certainly, I certainly understand 00:34:21.275 --> 00:34:25.045 it and I certainly, I certainly feel it, you know, coming from, you know, 00:34:25.045 --> 00:34:27.815 the Bricks and the Elementors and, and the Beaver Builders of the world. 00:34:28.135 --> 00:34:31.415 Kevin: Well, the way I, the way I look at it is, there, there's actually, 00:34:31.435 --> 00:34:37.355 WordPress is poised to serve both of these markets very easily, and very well. 00:34:37.810 --> 00:34:41.360 so, and I mentioned this when I was on Jamie's, podcast as 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:43.540 well, which is there's wordpress. 00:34:43.540 --> 00:34:44.580 org and wordpress. 00:34:44.580 --> 00:34:44.880 com. 00:34:44.900 --> 00:34:45.600 Wordpress. 00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:49.670 org is a self hosted ecosystem, the wild, wild West. 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:54.550 Anybody who wants to learn and be a developer and be a real web 00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:56.570 designer and all of that should use. 00:34:56.580 --> 00:34:57.890 org and. 00:34:58.220 --> 00:35:01.220 org should be structured to serve those people. 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:04.300 And then anybody who wants a Wix like approach. 00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:08.560 Can, could go to.com if, if they, if they structured this correctly, 00:35:08.740 --> 00:35:13.120 could go to.com, wordpress.com, spin it up and it's as user friendly 00:35:13.120 --> 00:35:15.970 and dumb down as they want to make it and do whatever you guys want. 00:35:15.970 --> 00:35:18.700 With the.com side of things, that's not for us, okay? 00:35:18.970 --> 00:35:20.370 For us, right? 00:35:20.375 --> 00:35:23.730 People understand the language of web design and development.org 00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:24.880 needs to be protect. 00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:29.000 org needs to facilitate the work that we do and the way that we do it. 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.560 And that's where the vision went wrong. 00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:33.070 That's where, yes, he, you're right. 00:35:33.070 --> 00:35:36.760 He saw a problem and he aimed and he shot at it and he missed. 00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:38.190 and that's just the facts. 00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:39.750 it can still be fixed though. 00:35:39.810 --> 00:35:41.290 It can still be fixed easily. 00:35:41.720 --> 00:35:45.780 Webflow, by the way, for anybody who is, you know, there's, I see 00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:47.390 the counter argument a lot that. 00:35:47.805 --> 00:35:52.165 If we made, if they built an editor that was too advanced, right? 00:35:52.495 --> 00:35:54.285 it, it would, it would turn people away. 00:35:54.295 --> 00:35:55.065 It wouldn't work. 00:35:55.075 --> 00:35:56.485 There wouldn't be enough adoption. 00:35:56.675 --> 00:36:00.655 And I think Webflow has completely proved that philosophy incorrect. 00:36:00.665 --> 00:36:06.515 I mean, 4 billion plus valuation in a very small, relatively small amount 00:36:06.515 --> 00:36:08.571 of time, compared to WordPress. 00:36:08.631 --> 00:36:14.101 they, they built essentially a tool for advanced web design and development and 00:36:14.101 --> 00:36:18.021 then spent millions of dollars educating people on how to use it and how to do it. 00:36:18.311 --> 00:36:22.371 And they get adoption rates through the roof on a platform that's not open 00:36:22.371 --> 00:36:24.401 source, that doesn't have data ownership. 00:36:24.681 --> 00:36:26.441 So they don't even have that going for them. 00:36:26.581 --> 00:36:28.431 And they were able to wildly. 00:36:28.586 --> 00:36:29.446 Be successful. 00:36:29.636 --> 00:36:34.656 so I think they've proved the model of if you give people a functional tool and 00:36:34.656 --> 00:36:37.876 teach them how to use it, if they don't already know the language of web design 00:36:38.446 --> 00:36:41.206 one, they will do it, they will adopt it. 00:36:41.346 --> 00:36:42.756 They will go through the learning. 00:36:43.006 --> 00:36:46.516 And what I've always argued is two on the other side of it. 00:36:46.516 --> 00:36:49.196 And I don't want to dodge your question that you initially asked 00:36:49.196 --> 00:36:53.456 in the very beginning, which is the controversy over calling somebody out. 00:36:53.526 --> 00:36:53.866 Right. 00:36:54.186 --> 00:36:55.756 but if you get to. 00:36:55.996 --> 00:37:00.646 A level where your skills have dramatically elevated because you're 00:37:00.646 --> 00:37:03.476 using a functional tool, because you do something like page building 00:37:03.476 --> 00:37:07.896 one on one or whatever education is out there that actually elevates 00:37:07.896 --> 00:37:11.876 your understanding and skill level and abilities, your confidence. 00:37:12.261 --> 00:37:18.221 dramatically improves the work that you do for clients dramatically improves. 00:37:18.491 --> 00:37:21.541 And the other thing that we haven't talked about yet is we have an epidemic 00:37:21.751 --> 00:37:23.881 because there's very low barrier to entry. 00:37:24.061 --> 00:37:27.471 We have an epidemic of people in this industry doing work who actually 00:37:27.471 --> 00:37:28.751 don't know what they're doing. 00:37:29.051 --> 00:37:30.511 And that harms clients. 00:37:30.521 --> 00:37:31.811 It harms the ecosystem. 00:37:31.811 --> 00:37:33.131 It harms the industry. 00:37:33.321 --> 00:37:36.451 and they're doing it in many cases for bottom of the barrel prices. 00:37:36.801 --> 00:37:40.791 I, I do see that as a, as a big problem that also needs to be addressed. 00:37:41.051 --> 00:37:43.961 And when we go back, we tie this in with the block editor. 00:37:44.141 --> 00:37:48.731 When you dumb the tools down, guess what you attract more of people who 00:37:48.731 --> 00:37:51.001 don't actually know what they're doing. 00:37:51.241 --> 00:37:53.831 so there's two big problems there that are tied together. 00:37:53.831 --> 00:37:55.111 Matt: Yeah. 00:37:55.391 --> 00:37:56.681 Let's, let's move in that direction. 00:37:56.691 --> 00:37:58.431 That's something that's near and dear to my heart. 00:37:58.481 --> 00:38:01.436 one of the questions I always used to ask when I started my podcast, the decade 00:38:01.436 --> 00:38:06.926 ago when I was running my agency was what do we do about the 500 website? 00:38:06.956 --> 00:38:07.226 Right? 00:38:07.226 --> 00:38:11.156 Like, cause back then, even back then I was seeing people, I famously tell 00:38:11.156 --> 00:38:14.756 this story, this kid that, you know, I would see out at all when I was doing 00:38:14.756 --> 00:38:18.426 my agency and I was doing all the, like chamber of commerce meetings. 00:38:18.426 --> 00:38:22.766 Cause that's what you did back in like, 2010 to like find 00:38:22.766 --> 00:38:24.046 business, to sell websites. 00:38:24.416 --> 00:38:27.606 I would see him everywhere and he'd be like selling 500 websites. 00:38:27.646 --> 00:38:30.766 And then he finally sold to some like big e commerce. 00:38:31.576 --> 00:38:33.416 I don't even know what the hell they did, but they had just had thousands, 00:38:33.416 --> 00:38:37.296 tens of thousands of skews and he knocked on my door and he was just like, 00:38:37.316 --> 00:38:39.356 I don't know what I can do with this. 00:38:39.356 --> 00:38:44.126 And he was running on like some shared hosting service trying to import over 10, 00:38:44.126 --> 00:38:45.986 000 products into a WooCommerce store. 00:38:45.986 --> 00:38:48.296 And I'm like, Oh, What, how much did you sell this for? 00:38:48.306 --> 00:38:49.536 It was my biggest project ever. 00:38:49.536 --> 00:38:51.036 I sold it for like five grand. 00:38:51.336 --> 00:38:52.606 I'm like five grand. 00:38:53.126 --> 00:38:58.246 I'm like, we were, we're at like 50 K minimum for a project like this, just 00:38:58.256 --> 00:39:03.176 for the, just for the project management and, and architecture stuff alone. 00:39:03.186 --> 00:39:04.636 We're not even building the website yet. 00:39:04.806 --> 00:39:05.036 Right. 00:39:05.066 --> 00:39:06.596 Trying to like figure this stuff out. 00:39:06.596 --> 00:39:07.196 What does he do now? 00:39:07.196 --> 00:39:08.096 He's a real estate agent. 00:39:08.306 --> 00:39:11.586 So like I, I totally am. 00:39:11.626 --> 00:39:12.546 I am there. 00:39:12.596 --> 00:39:13.386 I'm there with you. 00:39:13.716 --> 00:39:14.076 and. 00:39:14.556 --> 00:39:19.086 Speaking about like your 101 course, when I got done with it, I was like, man. 00:39:19.916 --> 00:39:22.586 This guy, you should just be teaching CSS. 00:39:22.596 --> 00:39:23.916 Forget like bricks. 00:39:24.556 --> 00:39:29.266 Because I think like what I learned from that and like hearing you go through 00:39:29.266 --> 00:39:34.636 that, that course, I was like, this guy doesn't even need bricks or WordPress. 00:39:34.656 --> 00:39:40.246 You, you could just step up 50, 000 feet and look at CSS as a whole. 00:39:40.676 --> 00:39:44.626 instead of having to, to teach the bricks, the pocket, a well called a pocket 00:39:44.666 --> 00:39:46.856 of, of bricks in the WordPress world. 00:39:47.236 --> 00:39:48.726 What are your thoughts on that? 00:39:48.726 --> 00:39:52.176 Like when you're thinking about elevating people, do you ever just think like, yeah, 00:39:52.176 --> 00:39:55.996 maybe I should just extract the CSS part of it or, or as bricks that critical. 00:39:56.651 --> 00:39:57.231 to your, to 00:39:57.231 --> 00:39:58.411 Kevin: your workflow that you need. 00:39:58.491 --> 00:40:03.171 I mean, Bricks is critical in the, in the, in the web design, right? 00:40:03.191 --> 00:40:05.511 CSS is only one part of the web design. 00:40:05.511 --> 00:40:07.831 So something has to write the HTML. 00:40:07.851 --> 00:40:10.731 Something has to, be dabbling in PHP. 00:40:10.740 --> 00:40:13.221 Something has to be helping with JavaScript, right? 00:40:13.221 --> 00:40:16.771 So Bricks has interactions and conditions, and it's got a lot of things built into 00:40:16.771 --> 00:40:19.011 the UI that make all that stuff easier. 00:40:19.041 --> 00:40:22.461 And so people, if they're getting into web design and they're learning 00:40:22.471 --> 00:40:24.181 web design, what I tell them is. 00:40:24.521 --> 00:40:28.421 If you have a capable, a quality capable page builder, and for anybody that 00:40:28.421 --> 00:40:31.131 doesn't know why we're talking about Bricks or the advantages of Bricks. 00:40:31.531 --> 00:40:37.001 Bricks is a builder that proved that you can have a page builder write code 00:40:37.001 --> 00:40:39.221 for you that's not an absolute mess. 00:40:39.301 --> 00:40:43.031 The code output of Bricks is almost as if you wrote it by hand. 00:40:43.371 --> 00:40:46.201 they have a lot of respect for accessibility, for performance. 00:40:46.491 --> 00:40:50.471 For clean code output, logic, class first workflow, all of 00:40:50.471 --> 00:40:52.121 the fundamentals of web design. 00:40:52.121 --> 00:40:54.051 This is respected by Bricks. 00:40:54.061 --> 00:40:57.401 It's one of the only page builders in existence that does this. 00:40:57.801 --> 00:41:00.370 certainly the most popular page builder that does it. 00:41:00.841 --> 00:41:05.661 And so when I'm trying to like, I, I want more people to get into web design. 00:41:05.721 --> 00:41:07.791 I want beginners to come into our space. 00:41:07.801 --> 00:41:11.966 You can't have an ecosystem and an industry that Thrives if it's not bringing 00:41:11.966 --> 00:41:14.186 in new talent and new beginners, right? 00:41:14.196 --> 00:41:16.956 So I do want more beginners to come in. 00:41:17.216 --> 00:41:21.116 I don't want more beginners to be lied to about how easy it is 00:41:21.116 --> 00:41:23.806 to get into web design or how easy it is to build websites. 00:41:24.186 --> 00:41:25.276 I think Wix lies. 00:41:25.306 --> 00:41:26.585 I think Squarespace lies. 00:41:26.625 --> 00:41:31.136 I think the WordPress block editor lies, about what is required to actually 00:41:31.136 --> 00:41:32.816 come in and learn and do good work. 00:41:32.816 --> 00:41:33.086 Right. 00:41:33.426 --> 00:41:35.616 so, and that's why I told people on page one in one on one, I'm not gonna 00:41:35.616 --> 00:41:36.916 lie to you and I'm not gonna baby you. 00:41:36.956 --> 00:41:39.366 I'm like, I'm going to tell you what you need to know and we're going to do it. 00:41:39.706 --> 00:41:41.486 and, and this is the only path forward. 00:41:41.856 --> 00:41:47.930 So in facilitating that, if I, yes, I tell them in page building 101, there is one. 00:41:48.291 --> 00:41:50.631 Thing you really do need to know and understand. 00:41:50.641 --> 00:41:51.661 And that is CSS. 00:41:52.171 --> 00:41:54.801 the page builder is going to write the HTML for you. 00:41:54.861 --> 00:41:57.171 The page voter is going to write the PHP for you. 00:41:57.211 --> 00:42:00.671 The page voter is going to write the JavaScript for you, but when it comes to 00:42:00.781 --> 00:42:06.211 styling on a website and when it comes to best practices of maintaining and scaling 00:42:06.211 --> 00:42:09.411 styling, you have to understand CSS. 00:42:09.431 --> 00:42:11.581 And that's why CSS was a big part of. 00:42:11.746 --> 00:42:13.026 Of page building 101. 00:42:13.326 --> 00:42:17.426 Of course, it's why, I, I advocate so strongly for a framework and why I 00:42:17.436 --> 00:42:21.245 built the framework that I built and it works the way that it works because of 00:42:21.245 --> 00:42:22.956 that philosophy and those principles. 00:42:23.246 --> 00:42:25.796 but without bricks, it would be okay. 00:42:25.796 --> 00:42:27.136 I'm going to teach you the, the. 00:42:27.371 --> 00:42:29.711 Fundamentals of scalable, maintainable CSS. 00:42:29.971 --> 00:42:31.971 But then I also have to teach you HTML. 00:42:31.971 --> 00:42:33.581 And I also have to teach you PHP. 00:42:33.591 --> 00:42:35.481 And I also have to teach you basic JavaScript. 00:42:36.041 --> 00:42:38.791 That barrier to entry is huge, right? 00:42:39.031 --> 00:42:44.091 And so I look at a page builder and, and trust me, like I'm, I'm all for, clean 00:42:44.091 --> 00:42:46.000 code and scalable, maintainable projects. 00:42:46.261 --> 00:42:49.041 If the page builders were doing what Elementor is doing still. 00:42:49.261 --> 00:42:49.551 Right. 00:42:49.551 --> 00:42:55.361 Which is outputting really, really, really bad code and ignoring the 00:42:55.361 --> 00:42:59.841 fundamentals like a class first workflow and, all the things that I talk about. 00:43:00.401 --> 00:43:03.090 I, I would object to using a page builder as well. 00:43:03.571 --> 00:43:05.080 I look at a tool as. 00:43:05.471 --> 00:43:12.821 Does this tool have tremendous upside and does it have a very small list of cons? 00:43:13.231 --> 00:43:17.120 And Elementor has a lot of upside for beginners, okay? 00:43:17.120 --> 00:43:18.541 And people entering the space. 00:43:18.761 --> 00:43:24.110 It also has a laundry list of cons, like deal breaking cons. 00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:29.256 Bricks does not have That laundry list of cons, it doesn't have any deal breakers. 00:43:29.486 --> 00:43:34.676 And so when I'm introducing new people to web design, bricks is a, 00:43:34.746 --> 00:43:37.266 it's a critical piece in that puzzle. 00:43:37.596 --> 00:43:39.906 and I'm not saying it's, it's always going to be the only one. 00:43:39.936 --> 00:43:42.146 And I'm not saying, I'm not saying it is the only one. 00:43:42.195 --> 00:43:42.505 Okay. 00:43:42.506 --> 00:43:43.545 There's a couple others. 00:43:43.746 --> 00:43:44.966 They're just not as known. 00:43:45.226 --> 00:43:47.866 but bricks facilitates this. 00:43:48.191 --> 00:43:53.641 So much for people and they, they get confidence, I would say three to five 00:43:53.641 --> 00:43:57.850 times faster than they would if we were just saying, Oh, I'm just going to 00:43:57.851 --> 00:43:59.061 teach you how to hand code everything. 00:43:59.371 --> 00:44:01.071 that, that wouldn't work nearly as well. 00:44:02.151 --> 00:44:02.701 I think you've, 00:44:03.611 --> 00:44:06.450 Matt: well, I don't want to put, I don't want to put this all in your shoulders, 00:44:06.450 --> 00:44:12.461 but I think you've, you've really tipped the scales of, page builders, in the 00:44:12.461 --> 00:44:16.531 page builder, what I'll say, page builder community, you've tipped the scales to, 00:44:16.551 --> 00:44:21.021 to, to have an advantage to even have the, have this discussion in the space. 00:44:21.251 --> 00:44:25.611 Cause you probably remember as long as you've been in the space when Elementor 00:44:25.611 --> 00:44:30.571 and Beaver Builder and we had page lines, site origins, we had all like these little 00:44:30.571 --> 00:44:32.321 page builders trying to break through. 00:44:32.671 --> 00:44:36.651 I don't know what year it was, 2014, 2015 ish. 00:44:37.281 --> 00:44:41.526 And my God, if you brought up page builders, You were just, you just 00:44:41.526 --> 00:44:43.226 cast out of the conversation, right? 00:44:43.226 --> 00:44:45.496 Because you had the hardcore developers who were like, get out of 00:44:45.496 --> 00:44:46.976 here with this page builder thing. 00:44:47.186 --> 00:44:47.436 Right. 00:44:47.436 --> 00:44:51.676 And I, and I think of course these tools have evolved, but then so have 00:44:51.676 --> 00:44:55.775 folks like you come out with education around this stuff and it's really built 00:44:55.786 --> 00:44:58.756 up, you know, the confidence, like you said, in, in that sort of page builder 00:44:58.756 --> 00:45:02.366 community, but also it allows people that to have a little bit more of a, 00:45:02.426 --> 00:45:05.336 of a respected conversation around it. 00:45:05.336 --> 00:45:07.346 Like it doesn't, everything doesn't have to be. 00:45:08.266 --> 00:45:11.466 Hand coded and, and, and done, NDS code or whatever. 00:45:13.066 --> 00:45:18.896 Having said that my, my, one of my, challenges to using something like bricks, 00:45:18.896 --> 00:45:23.566 because like you said, like the front end development and the CSS and the styling, 00:45:23.586 --> 00:45:27.496 this is just one aspect of the complete delivery of a, of a website project. 00:45:27.686 --> 00:45:28.646 So one of the things that. 00:45:30.186 --> 00:45:33.236 I'm not pushing back, but the challenging question is in my 00:45:33.236 --> 00:45:37.766 agency, when I was running it there for bigger projects, there was no 00:45:37.766 --> 00:45:39.556 way we're using a page builder. 00:45:39.766 --> 00:45:42.406 And again, you got to remember this is many years ago. 00:45:42.406 --> 00:45:45.426 So beaver builder was like the only one I really felt comfortable with. 00:45:45.766 --> 00:45:51.056 I would use that on the ones that needed lower budget and faster deployment time. 00:45:51.096 --> 00:45:54.256 So we were using beaver builder, but any bigger project, we were 00:45:54.256 --> 00:45:55.766 not slotting in beaver builder. 00:45:55.786 --> 00:45:57.556 And I probably still wouldn't today. 00:45:57.911 --> 00:46:02.421 For one of the largest issues was, continuity in the business. 00:46:02.911 --> 00:46:07.681 There's always a front end developer and a back end developer on every project. 00:46:08.021 --> 00:46:12.191 And when they're coding, they're deploying to GitHub repo, where testing 00:46:12.191 --> 00:46:15.801 or QA and all this stuff, on staging servers, like we weren't deploying 00:46:15.801 --> 00:46:17.211 code until the customer tested it. 00:46:17.451 --> 00:46:20.781 Now, maybe these are just bigger, more complex projects that these 00:46:20.791 --> 00:46:21.965 page builders are just not aware of. 00:46:22.176 --> 00:46:27.126 A perfect fit for, but I'm curious, like in scaling the agency side of 00:46:27.126 --> 00:46:31.506 things, when you look at something like bricks, the continuity of the business. 00:46:31.656 --> 00:46:33.906 Hey, I got to find somebody who, who knows bricks. 00:46:33.936 --> 00:46:36.296 I know bricks, but now I have to teach somebody else. 00:46:36.526 --> 00:46:37.846 What if that person's on vacation? 00:46:37.906 --> 00:46:43.946 How do I go back and check the code and the changes that they were deploying? 00:46:44.136 --> 00:46:47.896 It can't certainly just be in scanning the UI of Bricks and seeing 00:46:47.896 --> 00:46:50.356 what their changes was and copying and pasting something back in. 00:46:50.806 --> 00:46:55.656 We certainly want something that has, You know that, like get hub repository. 00:46:55.726 --> 00:46:57.086 Like I can see all the code committed. 00:46:57.086 --> 00:46:58.076 I can see comments. 00:46:58.336 --> 00:47:00.646 I can roll it back if I need to do a different version. 00:47:00.815 --> 00:47:03.575 So what, what are your thoughts on like scaling the business? 00:47:03.576 --> 00:47:07.345 I get how you scale code and, and building your sites through a tool 00:47:07.345 --> 00:47:10.805 like bricks, but how do you think about it as scaling the business? 00:47:10.826 --> 00:47:13.446 Somebody leaves, you hire somebody new, you're growing a team. 00:47:13.881 --> 00:47:14.631 Et cetera, et cetera. 00:47:14.871 --> 00:47:18.661 Kevin: You know, I think it's a challenge regardless of the route that you go. 00:47:18.681 --> 00:47:22.441 It's the same challenge of our thing is built in react. 00:47:22.461 --> 00:47:26.370 And this other thing is built in view or built in Svelte. 00:47:26.441 --> 00:47:30.551 And it's like, okay, the develop the main developers that built this left. 00:47:30.831 --> 00:47:33.141 And the company is like, we've got to go hire people. 00:47:33.331 --> 00:47:35.181 let's say, you know, it was built in view. 00:47:35.201 --> 00:47:36.711 Well, you got to go find view people. 00:47:36.831 --> 00:47:37.151 Right. 00:47:37.161 --> 00:47:41.631 So to, to bring in, and in WordPress, it could be built in a page builder, 00:47:41.631 --> 00:47:43.211 or it could be built in a code editor. 00:47:43.391 --> 00:47:46.681 If it's built in a code editor, let's say it's built with a, they 00:47:46.721 --> 00:47:48.071 created a custom block theme. 00:47:48.171 --> 00:47:48.571 Okay. 00:47:49.011 --> 00:47:51.970 So now you're immediately limited and you've got to go find people 00:47:51.970 --> 00:47:54.321 who understand block themes versus traditional themes. 00:47:54.581 --> 00:47:58.021 this, this problem is just constant in our space. 00:47:58.081 --> 00:48:00.391 and, and there's many, many different angles to it. 00:48:00.731 --> 00:48:05.201 Now, do I, do I wish that there was more, compatibility with. 00:48:05.491 --> 00:48:08.111 Bricks and get, yeah, for sure. 00:48:08.111 --> 00:48:11.211 I think that's a big conversation that should be had and should be talked about. 00:48:11.561 --> 00:48:15.881 Now, my ideal client and the ideal client of most of the agencies that, you 00:48:15.881 --> 00:48:20.551 know, are in my ecosystem and that I've spoken with, you know, if you're doing 00:48:20.551 --> 00:48:22.195 websites for a small business, go for it. 00:48:22.266 --> 00:48:24.636 Clients, the average small business client, especially 00:48:24.636 --> 00:48:25.816 service based businesses. 00:48:25.816 --> 00:48:29.236 I do want to say, I don't do anything with e commerce e commerce 00:48:29.236 --> 00:48:30.676 is a completely different beast. 00:48:30.896 --> 00:48:35.646 and there's a lot of complications when it comes to e commerce and protecting 00:48:35.906 --> 00:48:38.116 the versioning of a website, right? 00:48:38.116 --> 00:48:41.616 Because you can't, you can't just pull it off to a staging server 00:48:41.616 --> 00:48:42.666 and then try to push it back. 00:48:42.856 --> 00:48:46.456 Like you're, you're, you know, you're losing, all the transit, the transactions 00:48:46.456 --> 00:48:48.256 that came in during that time, right? 00:48:48.256 --> 00:48:49.956 There's a, there's a lot to consider there. 00:48:50.421 --> 00:48:54.351 The average small business website, like, you know, Joe Plummer, the 00:48:54.351 --> 00:48:58.111 gym down the street, or even SaaS companies, or that are just using 00:48:58.111 --> 00:49:00.211 WordPress as a front end marketing site. 00:49:00.211 --> 00:49:03.331 It's not even, it's not powering their app or anything else, right? 00:49:03.911 --> 00:49:07.091 They are just fine using a page builder like Bricks. 00:49:07.111 --> 00:49:08.351 They don't need Git. 00:49:08.381 --> 00:49:10.961 They don't need all this hyper version control. 00:49:11.311 --> 00:49:12.571 We do daily backups. 00:49:12.571 --> 00:49:18.201 We do have in place, bricks has native versioning of, what you've done in 00:49:18.201 --> 00:49:20.101 the builder on every single page. 00:49:20.371 --> 00:49:25.621 it has now the protection of multi users working and not overriding 00:49:25.621 --> 00:49:28.841 each other's work, not messing up the classes that they might be using 00:49:28.841 --> 00:49:30.131 and adding to different elements. 00:49:30.421 --> 00:49:32.171 So there is a lot of that at play now. 00:49:32.381 --> 00:49:35.151 and I, and I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff that page builders do that. 00:49:35.351 --> 00:49:36.851 Of course they didn't used to do. 00:49:37.141 --> 00:49:41.451 And so a lot of the assumptions about how page builders work are based on the old 00:49:41.451 --> 00:49:45.801 model of page builders and not really what page builders are capable of doing today. 00:49:46.131 --> 00:49:50.001 But I'm also not saying that bricks is, is a great tool for every 00:49:50.001 --> 00:49:53.201 single situation and every single scenario and every single website. 00:49:53.391 --> 00:49:56.881 If you need version control and you need get, and it's an enterprise 00:49:56.881 --> 00:49:58.881 level thing, don't use bricks. 00:49:58.991 --> 00:50:02.671 Don't use bricks, you know, do a, WordPress route for sure. 00:50:04.181 --> 00:50:04.491 Matt: Yeah. 00:50:04.581 --> 00:50:07.691 Yeah, I just remember like just for folks who are listening 00:50:07.691 --> 00:50:09.171 and maybe never experienced it. 00:50:09.171 --> 00:50:11.841 Remember, I'm not, I just dabbled in development. 00:50:11.841 --> 00:50:13.731 I was a system admin way, way, way back. 00:50:13.731 --> 00:50:16.540 And that's how I started my agency and WordPress, yada, yada, yada. 00:50:16.541 --> 00:50:22.445 But from like the owner's perspective, I learned really quick that when we were 00:50:23.016 --> 00:50:26.486 You know, we didn't turn over a lot of, freelance, developers and designers, 00:50:26.506 --> 00:50:30.486 but I learned real quick when they were deploying code to a client who was 00:50:30.486 --> 00:50:34.936 paying us thousands of dollars a month that there was no way I could just go 00:50:34.936 --> 00:50:40.741 into this blindly and, and, And not know what these people developed on the site. 00:50:41.011 --> 00:50:43.861 and that's how I just learned my lessons stumbling and failing when 00:50:43.861 --> 00:50:46.461 the customer called up and say, Hey, this, this website's running slow. 00:50:46.461 --> 00:50:50.411 And we had hired some, you know, somebody who said they knew WordPress and suddenly 00:50:50.411 --> 00:50:52.311 we're trying to debug all this code. 00:50:52.621 --> 00:50:55.491 And I was like, Oh yeah, we need, we need version control. 00:50:55.491 --> 00:50:58.481 I need continuity in this stuff from the business perspective. 00:50:59.471 --> 00:51:00.561 It's an insurance policy. 00:51:00.791 --> 00:51:03.501 but like you said, if there are, there may, and I did it too. 00:51:03.511 --> 00:51:08.251 Like I use Beaver Builder on, on a certain class of our customers and then a certain 00:51:08.251 --> 00:51:09.721 class of customers got it the other way. 00:51:09.721 --> 00:51:11.541 So, yeah, that's the 00:51:11.541 --> 00:51:11.811 Kevin: one. 00:51:11.841 --> 00:51:15.561 The one good thing about bricks is, it is a page builder that 00:51:15.561 --> 00:51:17.321 respects the language of web design. 00:51:17.431 --> 00:51:20.141 So it is not a proprietary builder. 00:51:20.291 --> 00:51:22.491 Elementor is a proprietary builder. 00:51:22.501 --> 00:51:24.541 Divi is a proprietary builder. 00:51:24.821 --> 00:51:26.831 Beaver is a proprietary builder. 00:51:27.081 --> 00:51:28.991 Bricks is not proprietary. 00:51:29.061 --> 00:51:31.501 Bricks uses the language of web design. 00:51:31.501 --> 00:51:35.511 It respects the fundamentals of web design, which means that anybody, 00:51:35.511 --> 00:51:39.361 there's a giant ecosystem of page builder developers in WordPress who 00:51:39.361 --> 00:51:41.871 are very, yeah, like good at that. 00:51:41.966 --> 00:51:43.456 Their job and what they do. 00:51:43.826 --> 00:51:47.426 And if you understand the language of web design, you can open Bricks and 00:51:47.426 --> 00:51:51.416 have zero problems understanding how the site was built, the concepts that 00:51:51.416 --> 00:51:53.996 were used, classes, CSS, et cetera. 00:51:54.166 --> 00:51:57.326 You gotta, you gotta, if you don't have any experience with Bricks, figure out 00:51:57.326 --> 00:52:00.656 where the inputs are and things like that, and how the templating system works and 00:52:00.656 --> 00:52:04.546 yada, yada, yada, but it's a very fast, like you're talking about a couple of 00:52:04.556 --> 00:52:08.066 days, you take somebody who understands web design, you can onboard them. 00:52:08.351 --> 00:52:09.251 In a couple of days. 00:52:09.281 --> 00:52:13.141 And now they're managing and scaling the website that was built in bricks. 00:52:13.551 --> 00:52:17.521 People who build websites and Webflow have the same exact issue, right? 00:52:17.741 --> 00:52:20.411 So if I have a client that their website is built in 00:52:20.411 --> 00:52:21.651 Webflow, they have two options. 00:52:21.661 --> 00:52:26.121 They can go find a Webflow developer, or they can hire any developer that 00:52:26.121 --> 00:52:29.091 understands the language of web design, who is willing to work in Webflow. 00:52:29.141 --> 00:52:30.851 And that person can take over their project. 00:52:31.081 --> 00:52:31.451 Why? 00:52:31.461 --> 00:52:34.041 Because Webflow respects the language of web design. 00:52:35.041 --> 00:52:40.841 Elementor, Divi, Beaver, these are proprietary systems where if you 00:52:40.861 --> 00:52:44.711 understand the language of web design, it doesn't actually matter because 00:52:44.711 --> 00:52:48.131 when you open the builder, you are completely lost and you will stay 00:52:48.131 --> 00:52:51.830 completely lost until you understand, oh, this is how Elementor works. 00:52:51.961 --> 00:52:53.701 Does things and names things. 00:52:53.911 --> 00:52:56.371 This is how beaver does things and names things. 00:52:56.371 --> 00:52:59.031 This is how Divi does things and names things because they 00:52:59.031 --> 00:53:00.881 all do it their own special way. 00:53:01.041 --> 00:53:04.251 And by the way, the block editor is exactly the same. 00:53:04.581 --> 00:53:08.761 It departs from the language of web design and it has its own language 00:53:08.791 --> 00:53:12.861 and its own workflow and its own ideas for how things should be done, which 00:53:12.861 --> 00:53:16.311 means that it doesn't matter how much experience you have in web design. 00:53:16.721 --> 00:53:19.291 You're not going to be able to do anything in the block editor unless you 00:53:19.301 --> 00:53:21.581 learn the language of the block editor. 00:53:21.801 --> 00:53:24.631 and that is a barrier to entry. 00:53:24.631 --> 00:53:27.701 In my opinion, that is not something that facilitates the 00:53:27.701 --> 00:53:29.071 work that we're all trying to do. 00:53:29.071 --> 00:53:29.370 Do 00:53:30.751 --> 00:53:31.681 Matt: you have time to continue? 00:53:32.001 --> 00:53:32.191 Yeah. 00:53:32.221 --> 00:53:37.741 Or, so let's, let me, can you unpack, an S an example of that? 00:53:37.861 --> 00:53:40.941 Cause, cause I don't know, I don't have the answer, but I assume it, 00:53:41.011 --> 00:53:45.061 I assume it might be like sort of like the container in, in rows. 00:53:46.221 --> 00:53:48.361 Theory or module, methodology. 00:53:48.601 --> 00:53:51.271 cause I've seen you talk about that in the page builder one on one course and, 00:53:51.291 --> 00:53:54.781 and your other live streams on how bricks sort of handles that versus the others. 00:53:54.891 --> 00:53:58.281 Is that the most simplistic approach that a lot of these other page builders 00:53:58.281 --> 00:53:59.701 are failing at Gutenberg included? 00:54:00.611 --> 00:54:01.911 Kevin: so yes, there is. 00:54:02.151 --> 00:54:04.821 So when you're writing HTML, you write, you write HTML. 00:54:04.851 --> 00:54:08.751 And if you're selecting elements that are writing the HTML for you, it's 00:54:08.771 --> 00:54:10.931 very helpful if that is predictable. 00:54:11.041 --> 00:54:15.001 So when you ask it to do something and it does something completely different than 00:54:15.001 --> 00:54:17.261 what you expect, that's a disconnect. 00:54:17.261 --> 00:54:18.991 And then it's like, why is that happening? 00:54:19.031 --> 00:54:19.351 Okay. 00:54:19.351 --> 00:54:20.511 Now we've got to investigate. 00:54:20.551 --> 00:54:21.551 We've got to learn, right. 00:54:22.746 --> 00:54:27.036 But I think actually a better example would be classes, CSS classes, the 00:54:27.036 --> 00:54:30.966 use of classes, since the very, very early days of web design. 00:54:30.966 --> 00:54:34.366 If you want to style something, you add a class to it and you assign 00:54:34.366 --> 00:54:36.176 styles to those classes, okay? 00:54:36.176 --> 00:54:39.166 This is a very, very fun, this is like what you would learn 00:54:39.166 --> 00:54:40.816 on day one, of web design. 00:54:41.526 --> 00:54:47.131 And Elementor and Divi and Beaver and the block editor, All say we 00:54:47.131 --> 00:54:52.261 are rejecting the notion of you doing web design with classes. 00:54:52.281 --> 00:54:55.461 We're doing away with that and we're doing our own thing. 00:54:55.621 --> 00:54:58.211 Divi uses presets, what they call preset. 00:54:58.221 --> 00:55:00.821 These are not, these are very similar to classes, but they're not the same. 00:55:00.851 --> 00:55:05.531 They have, wild disadvantages over using classes that I've detailed in an article. 00:55:05.801 --> 00:55:10.591 Beaver Elementor is very, very heavy in styling, just styling everything at the 00:55:10.591 --> 00:55:12.441 ID level, which is a fundamental mistake. 00:55:13.481 --> 00:55:15.751 That would be what you would learn not to do on day one. 00:55:15.751 --> 00:55:19.541 So element or beaver asking you to do the opposite of what you 00:55:19.541 --> 00:55:20.971 should be doing in web design. 00:55:21.301 --> 00:55:23.621 the block editor is essentially the same. 00:55:23.661 --> 00:55:29.161 And in order to try to overcome the lack of classes, they have to come 00:55:29.161 --> 00:55:31.871 up with things like block styles and they have to, and now you're 00:55:31.871 --> 00:55:33.451 in Jason and doing all this others. 00:55:33.491 --> 00:55:35.331 Like it's all workarounds. 00:55:35.391 --> 00:55:38.761 And, and, So all I've been doing is asking, okay, well, if we're going 00:55:38.761 --> 00:55:42.321 to have this tremendous deviation from the fundamentals, what are 00:55:42.321 --> 00:55:45.911 the advantages of deviating so strongly from the fundamentals? 00:55:46.111 --> 00:55:48.531 And that's where nobody's ever been able to give me an answer. 00:55:48.791 --> 00:55:52.421 What I've come to the conclusion is these tools believe. 00:55:52.676 --> 00:55:56.756 That people are either not smart enough to understand classes 00:55:56.776 --> 00:55:59.006 or they just don't care enough. 00:55:59.266 --> 00:55:59.656 Okay. 00:55:59.666 --> 00:56:04.276 And so with Elementor, for example, if you come to that conclusion and you 00:56:04.276 --> 00:56:07.306 say, our product is not going to have classes, we're going to have everybody 00:56:07.306 --> 00:56:08.696 style everything at the ID level. 00:56:08.906 --> 00:56:10.146 What is the result of that? 00:56:10.256 --> 00:56:13.586 The result of that is that you have thousands, millions of 00:56:13.586 --> 00:56:19.426 websites that are Poorly built and literally objectively built wrong. 00:56:19.656 --> 00:56:20.556 They're not scalable. 00:56:20.566 --> 00:56:21.596 They're not maintainable. 00:56:21.616 --> 00:56:24.886 The accessibility, if you care about accessibility is also non existent. 00:56:25.206 --> 00:56:29.726 because you're facilitating workflows, for people that don't know what they're doing. 00:56:30.006 --> 00:56:32.196 And not only are, do they not know what they're doing? 00:56:32.206 --> 00:56:33.446 You're encouraging them. 00:56:33.456 --> 00:56:35.846 You're actively encouraging them to do it wrong. 00:56:36.086 --> 00:56:41.146 the tool, the official approved workflow of the tool is to do it wrong. 00:56:41.426 --> 00:56:42.556 and so I've always. 00:56:42.641 --> 00:56:45.181 Fundamentally objected to that. 00:56:45.221 --> 00:56:47.871 And, and I think the block editor does the exact same thing. 00:56:49.626 --> 00:56:53.606 Matt: And this is just from, I think I, I, one of your recent tweets, I 00:56:53.606 --> 00:56:57.936 saw you talk about maybe just like the max width that, of the group, well 00:56:57.936 --> 00:56:59.946 called group block that Gutenberg sets. 00:56:59.946 --> 00:57:01.916 And you're just like, why, how did we even get to this number? 00:57:02.196 --> 00:57:02.406 Right. 00:57:02.566 --> 00:57:03.116 I was like seven. 00:57:03.396 --> 00:57:04.056 I don't know what it was. 00:57:04.096 --> 00:57:04.946 Seven, six years ago. 00:57:04.946 --> 00:57:05.136 Kevin: Yeah. 00:57:05.136 --> 00:57:06.146 It starts with a magic number. 00:57:06.156 --> 00:57:10.286 Well, yeah, that, that, so the block editor, if we're going to talk about 00:57:10.286 --> 00:57:14.236 deviation from fundamentals, like the block editor goes even a step further 00:57:14.631 --> 00:57:20.801 Elementor, Divi, and Beaver are all outside in, environments, which is, 00:57:20.811 --> 00:57:23.671 that's the fundamental of, if you go, if you go into CodePen and start just 00:57:23.691 --> 00:57:28.211 coding a website with HTML and CSS, you're working outside in, things are block 00:57:28.211 --> 00:57:32.011 level elements, they reach the edge of the screen, and then you work in from there. 00:57:32.476 --> 00:57:35.326 in the block editor, they decided that it's going to be an inside out 00:57:35.326 --> 00:57:39.186 workflow, that everything actually starts contained on the inside and you 00:57:39.186 --> 00:57:41.186 have to work your way out from there. 00:57:41.566 --> 00:57:45.696 And so again, anybody who has spent any time in web design is going 00:57:45.696 --> 00:57:47.476 to be completely confused by that. 00:57:47.776 --> 00:57:48.436 And so. 00:57:48.846 --> 00:57:51.776 Again, I don't have a problem with it, if it has some sort 00:57:51.776 --> 00:57:53.666 of magic, tremendous advantage. 00:57:53.946 --> 00:57:57.256 But I ask, what are the advantages of deviating from 00:57:57.256 --> 00:57:59.326 the, like, standard practice? 00:57:59.346 --> 00:58:01.716 And I haven't been given any advantages. 00:58:01.956 --> 00:58:04.536 But I do see disadvantages in doing it this way. 00:58:04.866 --> 00:58:09.446 They also don't use containment, like actual containers to contain content. 00:58:09.806 --> 00:58:14.526 they use, they use magic, assignments of max width to all children in a group. 00:58:14.796 --> 00:58:18.446 so when you say like, I want this group to contain the, it's children, 00:58:18.626 --> 00:58:20.446 it doesn't use a container to do that. 00:58:20.456 --> 00:58:23.666 Like you would see in traditional web design, it uses virtual 00:58:23.666 --> 00:58:25.336 containers with, with max width. 00:58:25.686 --> 00:58:29.066 So yeah, it's a technical discussion that we could go deeper into, but again, it's 00:58:29.066 --> 00:58:31.576 like, that's not the standard practice. 00:58:31.576 --> 00:58:33.586 So why are we deviating from the standard practice? 00:58:33.596 --> 00:58:34.816 What is the advantage? 00:58:35.166 --> 00:58:35.556 And. 00:58:36.291 --> 00:58:38.061 Same thing with naming things, right? 00:58:38.091 --> 00:58:39.741 Like, what are we going to call these things? 00:58:39.741 --> 00:58:41.401 Where a group is not a thing. 00:58:41.581 --> 00:58:43.721 You can't add a group in HTML. 00:58:44.051 --> 00:58:46.681 not in any, you know, general layout capacity. 00:58:46.681 --> 00:58:47.911 You wouldn't see that happening. 00:58:47.921 --> 00:58:50.511 You would use a section or you would use a div or something like this. 00:58:50.511 --> 00:58:51.391 You wouldn't use a group. 00:58:51.761 --> 00:58:54.511 so we have to understand what that's called and why is it called that? 00:58:54.531 --> 00:58:56.231 And why can it actually be many things? 00:58:56.231 --> 00:58:58.351 You can turn a group into a section if you want to. 00:58:58.681 --> 00:59:01.411 but a section is fundamentally different from a normal div. 00:59:01.601 --> 00:59:03.871 I've outlined this in, in detail as well. 00:59:04.291 --> 00:59:06.271 And, but, but they are, they are opposed. 00:59:06.421 --> 00:59:09.891 Like I've, I've actually proposed, Hey, why don't we have a section elements, 00:59:09.901 --> 00:59:11.881 extremely important element in web design. 00:59:12.211 --> 00:59:14.261 and I visualized that I've shown it on video. 00:59:14.261 --> 00:59:14.761 Look at bricks. 00:59:14.761 --> 00:59:15.711 That's a section element. 00:59:15.721 --> 00:59:16.471 Look how it behaves. 00:59:16.471 --> 00:59:17.631 Look what we're able to do with it. 00:59:17.631 --> 00:59:19.091 Can we have this in the block editor? 00:59:19.371 --> 00:59:19.791 No. 00:59:20.201 --> 00:59:22.511 They've said, no, we're not adding that to the block editor. 00:59:22.741 --> 00:59:27.091 So, again, it's, where are the advantages to, to this fundamental 00:59:27.091 --> 00:59:28.981 departure, I'm not given any. 00:59:29.011 --> 00:59:33.801 And so what I end up saying is, well, this is a frustrating environment to use. 00:59:33.801 --> 00:59:37.021 If you, if you know the language of web design, this is not the language of web. 00:59:37.021 --> 00:59:38.161 Does this a new language? 00:59:38.341 --> 00:59:40.511 It's an experimental language, by the way. 00:59:40.731 --> 00:59:44.911 and so if you can't give me strong advantages, I just have to reject it. 00:59:46.151 --> 00:59:46.381 Matt: Yeah. 00:59:46.591 --> 00:59:47.941 Advantages are probably. 00:59:48.941 --> 00:59:54.221 Just so they can, they being Gutenberg and all the other page builders, 00:59:54.531 --> 00:59:57.471 except for Bricks, the advantage of them building their product, right? 00:59:57.471 --> 01:00:01.131 And hopefully, hopefully, air quotes, making it easier for their 01:00:01.131 --> 01:00:03.591 users to, to build these sites with. 01:00:03.891 --> 01:00:04.101 Yeah. 01:00:04.131 --> 01:00:04.901 they make it easier 01:00:04.911 --> 01:00:09.771 Kevin: for their users to build bad sites is the conclusion of that. 01:00:09.821 --> 01:00:12.711 If you follow it to the end, here's what I will say too. 01:00:12.741 --> 01:00:15.271 I don't know if this is the motivation for Elementor. 01:00:15.271 --> 01:00:17.641 I don't know if this is the motivation for the block editor. 01:00:17.946 --> 01:00:21.646 We talk all the time about lock in and the problems with lock in. 01:00:21.646 --> 01:00:22.906 We don't want to be locked in. 01:00:22.906 --> 01:00:25.006 We want to democratize content. 01:00:25.016 --> 01:00:25.836 We want you, right? 01:00:25.836 --> 01:00:29.806 We want this to be able to flow from one platform to another if need be. 01:00:29.846 --> 01:00:30.226 Okay. 01:00:31.036 --> 01:00:34.486 Proprietary workflows create lock in. 01:00:35.126 --> 01:00:38.336 And so if somebody learns, let's say you're getting into web 01:00:38.336 --> 01:00:40.486 design and you learn on Elementor. 01:00:40.706 --> 01:00:40.926 Okay. 01:00:40.926 --> 01:00:42.046 I've been very clear about this. 01:00:42.376 --> 01:00:44.416 You don't really know anything about web design. 01:00:44.476 --> 01:00:48.476 You know, about building websites in a tool called Elementor. 01:00:48.636 --> 01:00:51.906 If I put you in bricks, you will have no idea what you're doing. 01:00:51.916 --> 01:00:53.836 Cause you don't understand the language of web design. 01:00:53.836 --> 01:00:55.606 You only understand the language of Elementor. 01:00:55.896 --> 01:00:57.516 If you learn in the block editor. 01:00:57.691 --> 01:00:59.331 You do not know web design. 01:00:59.341 --> 01:01:01.241 You do not understand web design. 01:01:01.471 --> 01:01:05.771 You know, the proprietary language of the block editor, which by the 01:01:05.771 --> 01:01:11.271 way, makes switching platforms, switching builders, whatever, way 01:01:11.271 --> 01:01:13.021 harder, way harder for people. 01:01:13.191 --> 01:01:17.731 So if we're trying to avoid lock in, what we actually need is a standardization 01:01:17.891 --> 01:01:20.911 of namings and practices and workflows. 01:01:21.356 --> 01:01:23.616 Which web design has, has done, right? 01:01:23.616 --> 01:01:26.306 We've, we've done this with classes and BIM and things like that. 01:01:26.696 --> 01:01:31.426 what we have is a bunch of different developers creating their own cute little 01:01:31.486 --> 01:01:36.666 package for how they want web design to work that completely deviates from all 01:01:36.666 --> 01:01:38.076 the fundamentals and best practices. 01:01:38.256 --> 01:01:43.036 And anybody who goes into that actually gets trapped inside of that. 01:01:43.286 --> 01:01:44.986 You can't, your projects can't leave it. 01:01:45.056 --> 01:01:46.216 Your mind can't leave it. 01:01:46.626 --> 01:01:49.146 Very, very difficult to switch to change. 01:01:49.396 --> 01:01:50.906 And that is a huge advantage for them. 01:01:50.946 --> 01:01:54.526 I don't know if that's the main motivation for making it proprietary, but it 01:01:54.526 --> 01:01:56.926 is a fact of making it proprietary. 01:01:57.226 --> 01:01:57.926 And so, 01:01:58.756 --> 01:02:01.756 Matt: but on the brick, on the brick side, like I can understand it 01:02:01.766 --> 01:02:03.996 being, like, web development first. 01:02:04.331 --> 01:02:05.531 Kind of methodology. 01:02:05.531 --> 01:02:09.011 But if you were, because again, watching one on one video series 01:02:09.201 --> 01:02:12.761 and some of your other live streams, like I've seen you input CSS into 01:02:12.761 --> 01:02:14.421 the input fields inside bricks. 01:02:14.721 --> 01:02:19.841 Surely if you disable bricks, that data saved in the database is gone and 01:02:19.841 --> 01:02:23.401 you're kind of that, wouldn't that be lock in or are you saying, well, it's, 01:02:23.751 --> 01:02:27.471 you still know how to develop a website more purely through the bricks model. 01:02:28.206 --> 01:02:28.756 Kevin: Correct. 01:02:28.806 --> 01:02:32.396 so yeah, for example, other people who know web design can take over 01:02:32.396 --> 01:02:33.846 your projects and manage your product. 01:02:33.866 --> 01:02:35.576 You're still locked into the builder for sure. 01:02:35.626 --> 01:02:35.866 Got it. 01:02:35.896 --> 01:02:38.526 And I, and I think that builders should, I'm not saying that 01:02:38.536 --> 01:02:39.846 that's a great thing about bricks. 01:02:39.846 --> 01:02:44.336 I think that builders should construct it in a way where you could potentially 01:02:44.336 --> 01:02:49.226 disable the builder and, all of your, your whole website still exists, or 01:02:49.236 --> 01:02:52.376 really my main argument is like web flow. 01:02:52.586 --> 01:02:55.116 The platform should have a native capable builder. 01:02:55.476 --> 01:02:58.916 And that's what we're all using and it respects the language of web design. 01:02:58.916 --> 01:03:00.106 That's the advantage of Webflow. 01:03:00.136 --> 01:03:03.256 Webflow, and that's why Webflow onboarding is so easy. 01:03:03.256 --> 01:03:06.116 You open Webflow, there's one editor, there's one environment, 01:03:06.126 --> 01:03:08.876 you know the language of web design, you can use it like magic. 01:03:09.156 --> 01:03:11.416 there's not a big learning curve if you already know what 01:03:11.416 --> 01:03:12.436 you're doing in web design. 01:03:12.446 --> 01:03:18.016 So, that, that is, would be the direction, WordPress could go with, with org. 01:03:18.326 --> 01:03:21.806 You're with the wild, wild west situation with plugins and all this, you are 01:03:21.806 --> 01:03:23.246 going to have dependencies, right? 01:03:23.246 --> 01:03:23.366 Yeah. 01:03:23.366 --> 01:03:23.636 Yeah. 01:03:23.656 --> 01:03:27.066 Bricks is a dependency, but it's a dependency that respects 01:03:27.066 --> 01:03:28.176 the language of web design. 01:03:28.176 --> 01:03:31.456 So if you do need it, like I was on oxygen, I was a big 01:03:31.456 --> 01:03:33.036 oxygen guy for a while until it. 01:03:33.466 --> 01:03:34.846 You know, shot itself in the head. 01:03:35.186 --> 01:03:39.756 so I, when I switched from oxygen to bricks, people were like, 01:03:39.756 --> 01:03:41.356 how, how hard was that switch? 01:03:41.356 --> 01:03:43.396 I was like, not hard at all. 01:03:43.426 --> 01:03:45.636 Both the builders respect the language of web design. 01:03:45.636 --> 01:03:48.016 So if you know what you're doing, it's that it's a 01:03:48.016 --> 01:03:49.796 weekend and you're done, right? 01:03:49.796 --> 01:03:53.196 You just, Oh, bricks puts this thing here and oxygen, put it over there, 01:03:53.346 --> 01:03:56.896 but they're the same fundamental things and it's the same fundamental workflow. 01:03:57.126 --> 01:04:00.200 So it was so easy for me to jump ship from oxygen to bricks. 01:04:00.201 --> 01:04:00.761 To bricks. 01:04:00.791 --> 01:04:04.411 That's what I kind of am talking about with like portability and not lock in. 01:04:04.851 --> 01:04:08.831 If I was on Elementor for five years and Elementor blew up and then 01:04:08.831 --> 01:04:11.361 they were like, well, how was the switch from Elementor to bricks? 01:04:11.481 --> 01:04:12.171 Not good. 01:04:12.411 --> 01:04:12.911 Not good. 01:04:12.991 --> 01:04:16.491 Cause all I, all I know is Elementor and I don't know a 01:04:16.491 --> 01:04:17.801 thing about actual web design. 01:04:19.251 --> 01:04:23.061 Matt: Does that, When you're talking to other, do you still do agency work? 01:04:23.121 --> 01:04:24.541 This is something I should ask at the top of the show, but 01:04:24.541 --> 01:04:25.921 do you still do agency work? 01:04:26.271 --> 01:04:30.191 Kevin: we have existing agency clients that we maintain their websites and help 01:04:30.191 --> 01:04:31.851 scale their websites and things like that. 01:04:31.851 --> 01:04:35.921 But over the past year, year and a half, I've been actively phasing out. 01:04:36.221 --> 01:04:38.061 and we've put a block on all new work. 01:04:38.061 --> 01:04:40.141 I actually just launched our new website, digital gravy. 01:04:40.531 --> 01:04:40.691 co. 01:04:40.691 --> 01:04:41.851 It's the same company. 01:04:42.101 --> 01:04:45.351 but we are focused completely just because the size and scope 01:04:45.351 --> 01:04:46.811 of our software products now. 01:04:47.221 --> 01:04:47.771 And. 01:04:48.141 --> 01:04:51.081 Half of the team that was working on the agency side, I've 01:04:51.081 --> 01:04:53.091 actually moved into software now. 01:04:53.921 --> 01:04:58.591 so it just doesn't make sense economically for us to pursue agency work anymore. 01:04:58.601 --> 01:05:01.081 We are a hundred percent committed to our software products. 01:05:01.411 --> 01:05:02.351 and, and that's it. 01:05:03.281 --> 01:05:03.461 Matt: Good. 01:05:03.511 --> 01:05:07.381 I guess what I'm getting at is like, I guess the risk and the reason why I never 01:05:07.381 --> 01:05:09.541 used, I was always looking at how can I. 01:05:09.706 --> 01:05:11.276 De risk the situation. 01:05:11.286 --> 01:05:17.136 How, how few plugins and areas of risk can I, pull out of a project for a client? 01:05:17.506 --> 01:05:19.646 And just like we saw with, I'm gonna forget the name of it. 01:05:19.966 --> 01:05:24.176 The one that shut down the page builder that shut down quickly, quickly. 01:05:24.641 --> 01:05:24.971 Yeah. 01:05:25.511 --> 01:05:29.641 I mean, it's still probably something that, that you would preface any 01:05:29.641 --> 01:05:33.321 of the, anybody comes to you for education purposes or learning to 01:05:33.341 --> 01:05:34.691 be like, Hey, this is still a risk. 01:05:34.691 --> 01:05:37.411 Like bricks could either go out of business or all of a sudden 01:05:37.411 --> 01:05:40.761 it could be a thousand dollars a month per license that you have. 01:05:40.961 --> 01:05:42.331 Like that is a risk. 01:05:42.341 --> 01:05:46.051 That's a point of, of failure or a point of contention for the business. 01:05:46.051 --> 01:05:48.021 So it's something that everyone should be aware of. 01:05:48.291 --> 01:05:51.341 Cause I just feel like in this page builder world, I love it. 01:05:51.401 --> 01:05:53.631 I love your opinion on it as I just see page builder So many 01:05:53.631 --> 01:05:59.541 people going for, you know, faster, cheaper, cheaper, more add ons. 01:05:59.581 --> 01:06:02.961 And I'm just like, man, people, don't you ever just, all right, so your tool 01:06:02.961 --> 01:06:08.061 doesn't have six of those, like, you know, whatever they're called, Jotty files, the 01:06:08.071 --> 01:06:09.971 animation ones, or what a lot of files. 01:06:10.831 --> 01:06:11.941 Like, so, all right, fine. 01:06:11.951 --> 01:06:12.891 You don't have those. 01:06:12.891 --> 01:06:13.311 Okay. 01:06:13.491 --> 01:06:16.911 Don't switch your whole business over to a new page builder just because 01:06:17.131 --> 01:06:18.941 you don't have those six free add ons. 01:06:18.941 --> 01:06:21.291 Like stay, stay focused here. 01:06:21.691 --> 01:06:25.481 So surely you, you must let folks know that, Hey, this is a risk and, 01:06:25.521 --> 01:06:26.911 and, you know, stay, stay the course. 01:06:27.151 --> 01:06:27.471 Kevin: Absolutely. 01:06:27.471 --> 01:06:27.791 Yeah. 01:06:27.811 --> 01:06:29.561 you know, any, any page voters are risk. 01:06:29.681 --> 01:06:34.471 What I've actually said though, is, and people really need to understand this. 01:06:34.781 --> 01:06:38.041 The block editor itself is a risk. 01:06:38.336 --> 01:06:38.656 Okay. 01:06:38.656 --> 01:06:43.396 There is no guarantee that the block editor survives and thrives. 01:06:43.436 --> 01:06:44.606 It is an experiment. 01:06:44.716 --> 01:06:46.276 Let's be very clear about that. 01:06:46.656 --> 01:06:51.186 And it's eight years into development and still not nearly where it needs to be. 01:06:51.466 --> 01:06:56.746 and it could absolutely still fail now with regard to bricks. 01:06:56.796 --> 01:07:01.646 When you follow best practices, especially best practices in a content management 01:07:01.646 --> 01:07:06.106 system like WordPress, thankfully, a lot of your data, if you're using custom post 01:07:06.126 --> 01:07:10.396 types, if you're using custom fields, if you're using loops and templates, a 01:07:10.396 --> 01:07:12.726 lot of your data, a lot of your data. 01:07:12.941 --> 01:07:14.011 Is not in bricks. 01:07:14.081 --> 01:07:15.031 A lot of your data. 01:07:15.041 --> 01:07:18.661 It's all of your blog posts and most of your page and custom post type 01:07:18.671 --> 01:07:20.721 data is actually in the database. 01:07:20.941 --> 01:07:23.011 completely separate from bricks. 01:07:23.281 --> 01:07:29.371 So if bricks died tomorrow, I could put in the next page builder that is closest 01:07:29.431 --> 01:07:35.201 to a professional workflow and all of my data is, The, the, what I have to rebuild 01:07:35.221 --> 01:07:38.501 is a couple of templates and I got to, and I got to hook up the dynamic data 01:07:38.531 --> 01:07:40.241 again and the loops and logic, right? 01:07:40.491 --> 01:07:44.981 that is a, a much smaller, like that's not a disaster scenario. 01:07:45.451 --> 01:07:49.131 now if you build an element or a Divi or Beaver and, and you're not 01:07:49.131 --> 01:07:51.631 using loops, you're not using custom post types, you're not using custom 01:07:51.631 --> 01:07:55.031 fields and dynamic data and literally everything exists in the builder. 01:07:55.231 --> 01:07:56.941 I've even had clients come to me. 01:07:57.171 --> 01:08:00.641 It's heartbreaking to have to tell them this kind of stuff, but like, They have 01:08:00.791 --> 01:08:07.321 576 blog posts and every single one of them were like assembled in Divi, 01:08:07.331 --> 01:08:10.491 like in the, not in, not in WordPress. 01:08:10.681 --> 01:08:13.941 and so, you know, you're getting rid of Divi and you're, and you're, you're, 01:08:14.131 --> 01:08:18.801 and it's like, man, this is all of that content is going to be absolutely littered 01:08:18.801 --> 01:08:21.001 with short codes and other nonsense. 01:08:21.331 --> 01:08:22.841 and it's just not a good situation, right? 01:08:23.161 --> 01:08:27.081 Bricks, you can avoid 90 percent of all of that hassle. 01:08:27.721 --> 01:08:31.191 But, but by the way, if you ever have to leave WordPress, block editor 01:08:31.191 --> 01:08:32.781 content is not really portable. 01:08:32.811 --> 01:08:35.541 I don't know if anybody's looked at what that the block editor 01:08:35.541 --> 01:08:36.891 does to your underlying data. 01:08:37.121 --> 01:08:38.541 but it's not, it's not pretty. 01:08:38.811 --> 01:08:40.241 so you're going to have massive issues. 01:08:40.241 --> 01:08:43.461 If you do have to leave WordPress for whatever reason, your data is not 01:08:43.461 --> 01:08:45.371 really safe in, in leaving WordPress. 01:08:45.371 --> 01:08:48.431 So even natively, there are problems. 01:08:49.241 --> 01:08:54.871 Matt: I would hope that the data liberation project is going to make that 01:08:54.871 --> 01:08:56.581 part of the scenario a little bit easier. 01:08:57.231 --> 01:08:57.831 One would hope 01:08:58.311 --> 01:09:02.021 Kevin: maybe, I mean, what is the data liberation project from what I've 01:09:02.021 --> 01:09:07.461 seen so far WordPress is WordPress is committed to liberating data from other 01:09:07.461 --> 01:09:09.861 platform and bringing it to WordPress. 01:09:09.981 --> 01:09:11.061 Matt: Yeah, yeah. 01:09:11.251 --> 01:09:15.351 I mean, I, I just wrote about this, on the last episode of the, of the 01:09:15.641 --> 01:09:19.681 five minute, podcast, you know, Here's the thing with, with all open source 01:09:19.691 --> 01:09:23.591 stuff that, that Matt talks about and, you know, encourages others to do. 01:09:23.751 --> 01:09:25.191 I always say like, man, call the bluff. 01:09:25.211 --> 01:09:31.571 Like when he put GoDaddy on blast, I was like, why, why doesn't GoDaddy just 01:09:31.591 --> 01:09:38.391 take 50 million a year, in engineers and commit them to WordPress core? 01:09:38.671 --> 01:09:43.171 Because then if all of a sudden 50 GoDaddy people showed up and were like, 01:09:43.171 --> 01:09:44.821 okay, we're ready to contribute to core. 01:09:45.141 --> 01:09:45.871 That would be like. 01:09:46.161 --> 01:09:48.271 I think that's when he'd be like, Oh my God, you called the bluff. 01:09:48.951 --> 01:09:51.481 Now, now I actually have to deal with, with folks that, 01:09:51.491 --> 01:09:52.711 because I see these things. 01:09:53.491 --> 01:09:56.881 I see like the, automatic, they have a name for it. 01:09:56.891 --> 01:09:59.951 They have like their own internal conference, automatic design, something. 01:10:00.306 --> 01:10:03.876 It might just be like their design teams meet up, but they all like coalesce get 01:10:03.916 --> 01:10:07.096 in their own meetings About like the design of like Gutenberg and all this 01:10:07.096 --> 01:10:10.036 stuff, but their core They're the ones that were contributed to court now. 01:10:10.036 --> 01:10:14.816 I don't think there's any super conspiracy here I think that it's just they they 01:10:14.846 --> 01:10:20.621 commit the most amount of payroll to committing to to WordPress core. 01:10:20.701 --> 01:10:24.571 It just happens to be Matt's company and I think that GoDaddy could do 01:10:24.571 --> 01:10:28.981 like the same call the same bluff and say, okay, here's our team of 50 to 01:10:28.981 --> 01:10:30.631 a hundred that will commit to this. 01:10:30.881 --> 01:10:34.301 Bluehost does this and you know, they're a sponsor of the WP minute. 01:10:34.311 --> 01:10:35.051 Thanks Bluehost. 01:10:35.361 --> 01:10:38.731 and a lot of people give Bluehost flack because hey, they have 01:10:38.731 --> 01:10:40.321 a 5 a month hosting plan. 01:10:40.361 --> 01:10:40.851 I get it. 01:10:41.351 --> 01:10:42.571 It's a volume play. 01:10:42.806 --> 01:10:43.866 They know the challenges. 01:10:43.886 --> 01:10:47.056 Everyone knows the challenges, but they also commit to WordPress core 01:10:47.216 --> 01:10:51.456 and they have for over a decade funding word camps and paying 01:10:51.466 --> 01:10:52.646 people to commit to WordPress core. 01:10:52.646 --> 01:10:54.806 So yeah, they're good stewards of the community. 01:10:54.946 --> 01:10:57.766 But even the Wix thing I wrote about, which was I was getting at this data 01:10:57.766 --> 01:11:02.666 liberation, these other platforms could also call the bluff and build 01:11:02.666 --> 01:11:06.151 their own plug in solution for data liberation to sink websites over time. 01:11:06.541 --> 01:11:12.251 Across from each other to and from WordPress to Wix and guess what we 01:11:12.251 --> 01:11:16.601 would all win But neither party it's like it's you know It's a standoff like 01:11:16.601 --> 01:11:18.991 neither party really wants to do it because they're like no we're trying 01:11:18.991 --> 01:11:22.231 to keep our users You're trying to keep your users But if the everyone 01:11:22.231 --> 01:11:26.471 did it then we would all win at the end of the day wouldn't be pretty But 01:11:26.471 --> 01:11:27.951 we would all win at the end of the day 01:11:29.531 --> 01:11:30.151 Kevin: No, you're right. 01:11:30.151 --> 01:11:30.461 You're right. 01:11:30.461 --> 01:11:30.781 You're right. 01:11:30.791 --> 01:11:35.361 And the reason why is because I mean, if we, if we really, look at the underlying 01:11:35.361 --> 01:11:40.071 motivations, if you are going to truly liberate content, which means you can 01:11:40.071 --> 01:11:44.191 move, you can put content anywhere and use any platform very easily. 01:11:44.621 --> 01:11:47.591 It does actually become a true competition at that point. 01:11:47.671 --> 01:11:51.676 Who has Who has the best builder environment that actually 01:11:51.676 --> 01:11:53.576 resonates with the market. 01:11:53.936 --> 01:12:01.066 And I think right now, WordPress has to look at its position and say, we're in 01:12:01.066 --> 01:12:03.906 probably the weakest possible position. 01:12:04.016 --> 01:12:04.326 Okay. 01:12:04.326 --> 01:12:09.266 If we compare our editor to what Wix offers users, and then Wix of course 01:12:09.266 --> 01:12:10.986 has an advanced editor as well. 01:12:11.476 --> 01:12:14.166 if we compare our position to Webflow. 01:12:14.371 --> 01:12:15.611 Very weak, right? 01:12:15.861 --> 01:12:20.671 the Gus goes back to the only, the only advantage they currently have, and 01:12:20.671 --> 01:12:22.221 I want them to have every advantage. 01:12:22.261 --> 01:12:22.571 Okay. 01:12:22.571 --> 01:12:23.221 Let's go back to that. 01:12:23.251 --> 01:12:24.801 I want WordPress to win. 01:12:25.051 --> 01:12:26.481 I want WordPress to dominate. 01:12:26.661 --> 01:12:29.641 The only advantage we have right now is being open source. 01:12:29.671 --> 01:12:31.511 That is the only advantage we have right now. 01:12:31.871 --> 01:12:38.121 Technologically from a CMS standpoint, from a native editor standpoint, We are 01:12:38.121 --> 01:12:41.731 at a weak position and those are the things that we need to fix and shore 01:12:41.741 --> 01:12:45.281 up from an onboarding perspective, from an, from an ecosystem, the 01:12:45.291 --> 01:12:47.281 ecosystem is the plus and the minus. 01:12:47.331 --> 01:12:47.731 Okay. 01:12:48.281 --> 01:12:50.741 It's a plus in that everything is available to you. 01:12:50.911 --> 01:12:53.041 It's a minus in that it's the wild, wild West. 01:12:53.051 --> 01:12:57.101 And you have to do a lot of, research and understanding and weighing of 01:12:57.101 --> 01:13:00.451 pros and cons to figure out how you're going to piece your stack together. 01:13:00.761 --> 01:13:03.021 and then what direction you're going to go with your workflow. 01:13:03.021 --> 01:13:05.301 It's just decision after decision, after decision. 01:13:05.516 --> 01:13:08.866 That is a plus, but it's also a dramatic weak point. 01:13:08.896 --> 01:13:14.756 So I think if data was truly liberated, and if let's say Wix and Webflow and 01:13:14.756 --> 01:13:17.096 WordPress were all open source options. 01:13:17.441 --> 01:13:18.831 WordPress dies tomorrow. 01:13:18.991 --> 01:13:20.231 WordPress dies tomorrow. 01:13:20.301 --> 01:13:21.311 It can't compete with those. 01:13:21.331 --> 01:13:24.381 The only reason it's still competing is because it's open source. 01:13:24.801 --> 01:13:28.181 and I don't think, you know, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket 01:13:28.181 --> 01:13:30.181 in anything that you do really in life. 01:13:30.181 --> 01:13:32.261 We don't want to put all our eggs in that one basket. 01:13:32.441 --> 01:13:34.571 We want to also have the best native experience. 01:13:34.571 --> 01:13:36.491 We want to also have the best onboarding flow. 01:13:36.651 --> 01:13:42.111 We want WordPress to make cohesive sense in terms of how it functions in the UI. 01:13:42.591 --> 01:13:49.201 We want the C the CMS is the best part of WordPress and it's been all but abandoned. 01:13:49.401 --> 01:13:51.966 and, and that's, that's a really bad thing. 01:13:52.186 --> 01:13:56.486 we need to get back to making it the best CMS that anybody's ever used. 01:13:56.736 --> 01:13:58.136 So much work to be done. 01:13:58.376 --> 01:14:00.776 and we just, we just need, I think. 01:14:01.041 --> 01:14:03.111 A little counter leadership is what we need. 01:14:03.791 --> 01:14:05.031 Matt: Yeah, I don't disagree with that. 01:14:05.101 --> 01:14:09.341 you know, I, I think we've gotten to this point because, certainly Matt 01:14:09.361 --> 01:14:12.761 is the decision maker and there's, I just wrote about this as well, either 01:14:12.761 --> 01:14:15.891 last week or the week before that, look, there, there's no changing. 01:14:16.176 --> 01:14:16.406 Right. 01:14:16.406 --> 01:14:19.836 There's no changing that, you know, there's no changing it. 01:14:19.856 --> 01:14:20.416 Hands down. 01:14:20.436 --> 01:14:22.386 We have to just accept it and move on. 01:14:22.596 --> 01:14:27.546 But what we can do is maybe try to influence those around him because I 01:14:27.546 --> 01:14:32.316 really think he's going to get to a point because he suffers from probably 01:14:32.316 --> 01:14:36.621 just like, just like you, except he has maybe a few zeros more on the end of his 01:14:36.621 --> 01:14:38.366 payroll that goes out every single month. 01:14:38.636 --> 01:14:39.996 but he struggles with the same thing. 01:14:40.196 --> 01:14:43.776 Not enough people, not enough time to get all the stuff done. 01:14:44.046 --> 01:14:49.591 Automatic does they have like Twenty five products, you know, along with wordpress. 01:14:49.591 --> 01:14:53.971 com and VIP and then all the people that that that he pays to commit to 01:14:53.971 --> 01:15:00.291 WordPress core that he can't even he cannot corral the this enterprise that 01:15:00.301 --> 01:15:03.261 he's built in order to focus on one thing. 01:15:03.496 --> 01:15:03.836 Right? 01:15:04.006 --> 01:15:09.386 From Pocket Cast to Tumblr to Simple Note to Videopress, to Newspack. 01:15:09.576 --> 01:15:12.686 I mean, we're, you know, so many products and things that he has his hands in. 01:15:12.706 --> 01:15:14.706 How could you even stay focused on this stuff? 01:15:15.176 --> 01:15:20.716 and I think what we're gonna see is maybe some people put in charge 01:15:20.746 --> 01:15:22.946 of the direction of WordPress. 01:15:23.361 --> 01:15:27.201 Over the next maybe six months to a year like I, I think what I'm about to, 01:15:27.261 --> 01:15:31.771 to, to see happen is we'll see like the rich Tabor's, the Anne McCarthy's, the 01:15:31.771 --> 01:15:37.571 Matias's really step in as leaders and then Matt will just show up for state 01:15:37.571 --> 01:15:40.941 of the word, which is kind of loosely what's been happening, I feel, but 01:15:40.971 --> 01:15:46.191 he'll show up more for the dramatics of the presentation and more of these 01:15:46.191 --> 01:15:48.281 folks will be directly in charge. 01:15:48.281 --> 01:15:50.201 And that is kind of what's happening today. 01:15:50.201 --> 01:15:51.571 Certainly not making, he's not making. 01:15:51.796 --> 01:15:55.446 Every single decision, but he is the north star for this stuff. 01:15:55.686 --> 01:15:59.596 And sometimes, you know, all of a sudden you get like a hundred year hosting plan. 01:15:59.596 --> 01:16:00.566 And you're like, where the hell did this come from? 01:16:01.266 --> 01:16:03.826 Like, why, why are we wasting time with this? 01:16:04.096 --> 01:16:05.426 Like, can we just move on? 01:16:05.796 --> 01:16:06.056 yeah, 01:16:06.486 --> 01:16:07.856 Kevin: no, I, I think you're absolutely right. 01:16:07.856 --> 01:16:10.956 I think, you know, any, anytime you have an organization this size, that's 01:16:10.956 --> 01:16:15.136 still kind of mostly going through one person, it's a really big problem. 01:16:15.146 --> 01:16:16.256 Like to have. 01:16:16.711 --> 01:16:18.161 Something like this be successful. 01:16:18.161 --> 01:16:22.471 You have to find talented people, put them in positions of leadership and 01:16:22.481 --> 01:16:24.901 influence and let them do their thing. 01:16:24.991 --> 01:16:25.301 Right. 01:16:25.521 --> 01:16:30.031 and, and you have to be willing to have conversations with people 01:16:30.041 --> 01:16:34.241 that, You know, exactly on the same page as you with regard. 01:16:34.271 --> 01:16:37.011 And, and you also have to know that's coming when you deviate so 01:16:37.011 --> 01:16:39.271 strongly from traditional practices. 01:16:39.631 --> 01:16:43.261 but the other thing that I think is what would shore a lot of this stuff up. 01:16:43.561 --> 01:16:47.171 I did a poll, I did a poll like maybe two years ago where I said, 01:16:47.361 --> 01:16:49.591 is the block editor, a page builder. 01:16:49.591 --> 01:16:49.962 Okay. 01:16:49.962 --> 01:16:54.416 I, I, I thought this was a very easy question to answer. 01:16:54.416 --> 01:16:55.901 It was 50, 50. 01:16:56.201 --> 01:16:56.601 Okay. 01:16:56.641 --> 01:16:57.881 About 50 50. 01:16:57.881 --> 01:16:58.071 Okay. 01:16:58.081 --> 01:17:01.791 I can't remember the exact percentages, but it was pretty close to 50 50, which 01:17:01.791 --> 01:17:08.941 tells me that the WordPress ecosystem doesn't even know how to classify the 01:17:08.941 --> 01:17:11.721 native editor in WordPress, which. 01:17:12.061 --> 01:17:18.021 Tells me there is a communication and vision issue that if we're going to do 01:17:18.021 --> 01:17:22.651 this thing, you have to come out with very clear communication and paint a 01:17:22.651 --> 01:17:27.241 picture and say, guys, and again, if it's going to take eight to 10 years, 01:17:27.391 --> 01:17:31.091 even more so is the communication and vision casting important. 01:17:31.401 --> 01:17:34.341 You've got to come out and say, this is where we are going. 01:17:34.556 --> 01:17:34.956 Okay. 01:17:35.106 --> 01:17:38.446 And this is how we're going to get there in stages and it's 01:17:38.446 --> 01:17:39.886 going to look very different. 01:17:40.116 --> 01:17:43.136 And here's why it's going to look very different. 01:17:43.286 --> 01:17:46.726 And here are the advantages of it being very different. 01:17:47.296 --> 01:17:48.926 I haven't seen really any of that. 01:17:48.966 --> 01:17:53.236 It's kind of all just done and it appears when it appears and it appears in pieces 01:17:53.606 --> 01:17:55.996 and we're all just left to figure it out. 01:17:56.296 --> 01:17:59.766 and it just, yeah, it's not a great situation to be in. 01:17:59.766 --> 01:18:00.856 It's a little bit frustrating. 01:18:02.406 --> 01:18:02.726 Matt: Yeah. 01:18:02.746 --> 01:18:03.676 The, I. 01:18:04.226 --> 01:18:08.476 The Gutenberg project, like if you look at Gutenberg's standalone, you know, I 01:18:08.486 --> 01:18:13.076 think that, again, you go back to Matt's grand vision, crazy grand vision for 01:18:13.076 --> 01:18:17.846 some things, like his idea of Gutenberg, it could still happen, but, you know, 01:18:17.846 --> 01:18:22.526 it being a standalone project, So that it could be an editor for anything like 01:18:22.536 --> 01:18:27.146 literally, you know, he thinks that it can be forked and used on you like 01:18:27.146 --> 01:18:32.666 your Samsung refrigerator as an input like, okay, I need five eggs, right? 01:18:32.676 --> 01:18:36.686 Like, I think he thinks of it that way, because he's even said that 01:18:36.696 --> 01:18:40.246 he envisioned the Gutenberg project being bigger than WordPress someday. 01:18:40.626 --> 01:18:45.791 And I think that's his crazy thinking, like, Not only am I going to not only am I 01:18:45.791 --> 01:18:50.811 going to forge a page building experience in WordPress It's going to continue to 01:18:50.811 --> 01:18:54.951 permeate through the internet in other areas and other people can build other 01:18:54.951 --> 01:18:59.031 things like wouldn't that be amazing as he sits in like some mushroom high 01:18:59.031 --> 01:19:03.991 and With Tim Ferriss somewhere micro dosing on the top of a mountain, right? 01:19:03.991 --> 01:19:07.761 I'm just you know, sorry Matt, but you know, you did the podcast You know and 01:19:07.761 --> 01:19:11.191 and I think those are those crazy visions I think that we need like crazy vision 01:19:11.191 --> 01:19:14.841 leadership sometimes, but man, we got to get off this roller coaster at some point. 01:19:15.521 --> 01:19:16.041 Kevin: Yes. 01:19:16.101 --> 01:19:16.551 Yes. 01:19:16.611 --> 01:19:20.741 And, and, and that, I, like, I think big ideas, create awesome things. 01:19:20.741 --> 01:19:21.021 Right. 01:19:21.171 --> 01:19:21.371 Right. 01:19:21.421 --> 01:19:25.821 but yeah, you can't let them wander and you can't let them linger. 01:19:26.111 --> 01:19:29.721 Like eight to 10 years in, and it's still not a cohesive thing. 01:19:30.061 --> 01:19:32.821 and still doesn't have a lot of the fundamental stuff that we needed to have. 01:19:33.151 --> 01:19:35.121 And a lot of people are frustrated with it. 01:19:35.121 --> 01:19:39.051 I mean, there, you know, the classic editor plugin is what's still like 01:19:39.061 --> 01:19:40.631 probably the most installed plugin. 01:19:40.661 --> 01:19:42.341 People just kind of opting out. 01:19:42.616 --> 01:19:44.206 Of the Gutenberg experiment. 01:19:44.446 --> 01:19:45.466 that's a huge problem. 01:19:45.506 --> 01:19:46.416 That's a huge problem. 01:19:46.416 --> 01:19:51.226 So, we, again, we find ourselves right now in a very weak position. 01:19:51.286 --> 01:19:53.836 I wish we were not in this weak position. 01:19:54.296 --> 01:19:56.226 I don't care about blaming people. 01:19:56.396 --> 01:19:59.836 I do care about how we're going to get to where we need to be. 01:20:00.136 --> 01:20:05.846 And, I think spending another five years on the block editor experiment, going 01:20:05.846 --> 01:20:08.496 down the same road and neglecting the CMS. 01:20:08.496 --> 01:20:13.966 And I don't see that as a one, it's not a winning proposition and two, it 01:20:13.966 --> 01:20:15.806 could actually be the end of WordPress. 01:20:15.816 --> 01:20:21.306 Like it could, like, I just, I described on Twitter, we are a wounded elephant, 01:20:21.316 --> 01:20:26.216 like no doubt WordPress is an elephant, gigantic, monstrous, powerful, right? 01:20:26.486 --> 01:20:27.466 It is wounded. 01:20:27.751 --> 01:20:30.801 And it is surrounded by a hungry pack of wolves. 01:20:31.021 --> 01:20:34.791 And that is not a, and we don't have five years to figure it out. 01:20:34.931 --> 01:20:38.271 We need to kind of figure it out like now, because things 01:20:38.271 --> 01:20:40.211 rapidly change in this industry. 01:20:40.371 --> 01:20:41.831 We've got AI coming in. 01:20:41.851 --> 01:20:43.161 We've got all this stuff, right? 01:20:43.161 --> 01:20:44.381 We don't know what could happen. 01:20:44.736 --> 01:20:47.176 We can't stay in this wounded state any longer. 01:20:47.186 --> 01:20:48.046 We cannot afford it. 01:20:48.056 --> 01:20:50.306 So to me, that's like an emergency. 01:20:50.526 --> 01:20:54.176 And so emergencies require like flashing lights and like, Hey, 01:20:54.466 --> 01:20:56.666 Hey, everybody stop for a second. 01:20:56.816 --> 01:20:58.226 We got to figure this thing out. 01:20:58.396 --> 01:21:00.386 And that's kind of what I've been doing a little bit on Twitter. 01:21:02.186 --> 01:21:03.076 Matt: you have 10 more minutes. 01:21:05.316 --> 01:21:07.786 How, what, what, what is your stance on, on AI? 01:21:07.786 --> 01:21:08.416 Do you think it's going to. 01:21:09.061 --> 01:21:12.041 How far out do you think it's actually going to impact web design? 01:21:12.041 --> 01:21:16.071 Because I look at it and it can't do anything for me ever. 01:21:16.641 --> 01:21:21.841 I mean, the closest thing I've ever come to is like a decent summary with using 01:21:21.901 --> 01:21:24.641 a Claude AI, but I, I really can't get. 01:21:24.846 --> 01:21:29.176 Chat GPT or any of these AI website building platforms to do anything 01:21:29.346 --> 01:21:32.656 of substance for me, whereas I could just go into, you know, let's say 01:21:32.666 --> 01:21:34.386 use cadence as an example because they have a bunch of premade 01:21:34.386 --> 01:21:36.486 templates, but I could just go themes. 01:21:36.486 --> 01:21:36.966 I could just go. 01:21:37.146 --> 01:21:38.626 Oh, restaurant website, click. 01:21:38.726 --> 01:21:40.166 Oh, lawyer website, click. 01:21:40.346 --> 01:21:44.126 And then I'll just do the rest of the 5 percent 10 percent later on. 01:21:44.516 --> 01:21:46.836 Like, I don't see AI doing anything crazy yet. 01:21:46.856 --> 01:21:48.856 Do you see it really progressing as a threat? 01:21:50.166 --> 01:21:51.256 Kevin: not as a threat. 01:21:51.306 --> 01:21:51.796 No. 01:21:51.986 --> 01:21:52.756 let's be honest. 01:21:52.756 --> 01:21:53.126 Like. 01:21:53.496 --> 01:21:57.116 So let's say AI could, let's say a business owner, the, the, 01:21:57.126 --> 01:21:59.796 the Wix person, the person Wix is trying to sell websites to. 01:21:59.796 --> 01:22:00.076 Okay. 01:22:00.436 --> 01:22:03.656 So that person, your average Joe Schmo business guy comes in. 01:22:03.666 --> 01:22:05.236 He's like, you know, I don't want to pay a developer. 01:22:05.236 --> 01:22:07.376 I want to use this AI thing to build my website. 01:22:07.376 --> 01:22:10.976 So he gets on whatever, and he says, this is what I want my website to do 01:22:10.976 --> 01:22:12.226 and how many pages I want it to have. 01:22:12.226 --> 01:22:14.016 And you have to, and let's just say. 01:22:14.341 --> 01:22:18.171 It can make him what looks to be a traditional business 01:22:18.171 --> 01:22:19.591 website in his industry. 01:22:20.071 --> 01:22:22.421 And it says kind of all the right things. 01:22:22.471 --> 01:22:24.701 And then he pushes the button to deploy it. 01:22:25.941 --> 01:22:30.331 There's not much difference from him going into Wix right now, choosing a 01:22:30.941 --> 01:22:36.211 design pack that somebody already designed professionally and has starter copy. 01:22:36.411 --> 01:22:39.441 and you know, putting that up and there's not going to be much difference. 01:22:39.941 --> 01:22:41.931 Neither website is going to work. 01:22:42.126 --> 01:22:42.376 Okay. 01:22:42.376 --> 01:22:47.036 This idea that if you build it, they come, we all know that that's not a thing. 01:22:47.046 --> 01:22:49.086 There's a gazillion websites on the internet. 01:22:49.576 --> 01:22:52.086 So, and, and I just had this conversation on the live stream 01:22:52.086 --> 01:22:54.696 the other day where I told people stop being just a web designer. 01:22:54.706 --> 01:22:57.276 Like it's not design, build, good luck. 01:22:57.356 --> 01:22:59.466 That's like, if you're doing that with your clients, That's 01:22:59.466 --> 01:23:00.626 a, that's a huge problem. 01:23:00.876 --> 01:23:04.216 It's design, build, and then there's got to be a pathway to success. 01:23:04.576 --> 01:23:06.856 What is the pathway to success that you're going to offer? 01:23:06.856 --> 01:23:07.796 Is it going to be PPC? 01:23:07.806 --> 01:23:08.946 Is it going to be SEO? 01:23:08.946 --> 01:23:10.416 Is it going to be email marketing? 01:23:10.426 --> 01:23:11.566 Is it going to be social media? 01:23:11.606 --> 01:23:12.706 Like, what is it going to be? 01:23:12.996 --> 01:23:15.776 There's got to be a pathway to success because for the average 01:23:15.796 --> 01:23:19.391 business owner, it's If you design it, build it and launch it, it will 01:23:19.411 --> 01:23:21.541 sit there and do absolutely nothing. 01:23:21.551 --> 01:23:24.941 They will get zero leads, zero ROI, zero anything. 01:23:25.001 --> 01:23:25.371 Okay. 01:23:25.631 --> 01:23:25.971 Yeah. 01:23:26.081 --> 01:23:29.281 They think that handing out business cards with their website on the 01:23:29.281 --> 01:23:30.841 bottom is actually doing something. 01:23:30.851 --> 01:23:31.811 It's not doing anything. 01:23:31.811 --> 01:23:32.981 It's not moving the needle. 01:23:33.471 --> 01:23:36.571 And you could say, well, they didn't have a website before, but they have one now. 01:23:36.731 --> 01:23:37.861 But what is it doing? 01:23:38.171 --> 01:23:42.551 So the other side of the puzzle is what's called lost opportunity cost. 01:23:42.821 --> 01:23:47.661 If you hired a professional that knew how to design, Develop right, really 01:23:47.661 --> 01:23:49.721 well, and then had a pathway to success. 01:23:49.981 --> 01:23:53.301 You would have a website that's actually generating traffic, 01:23:53.461 --> 01:23:56.731 actually generating leads and an ROI and growing your business. 01:23:56.911 --> 01:23:57.321 Okay. 01:23:57.711 --> 01:24:00.511 Doing Wix, doing AI and having a website. 01:24:00.521 --> 01:24:03.561 Ooh, look, look what it built for me sitting there doing nothing. 01:24:03.996 --> 01:24:07.596 You are experiencing tremendous lost opportunity costs. 01:24:07.636 --> 01:24:09.046 You think you had a success? 01:24:09.256 --> 01:24:10.146 You've done nothing. 01:24:10.236 --> 01:24:11.226 You've done nothing, right? 01:24:11.436 --> 01:24:15.726 And so even if AI could do that, it's not building anything of, of merit 01:24:15.726 --> 01:24:17.196 for people or success for people. 01:24:17.636 --> 01:24:21.836 So I'm in that regard there, you still have to have consultants and you still 01:24:21.836 --> 01:24:26.166 have to have experts who understand marketing, who understand actually 01:24:26.166 --> 01:24:27.966 moving the needle for a business. 01:24:28.276 --> 01:24:32.311 AI is, you know, Far off from being able to even create a template. 01:24:32.471 --> 01:24:37.151 It's way far off from actually being the expert on how this business needs 01:24:37.151 --> 01:24:38.611 to be represented on the internet. 01:24:39.621 --> 01:24:40.471 Matt: Yeah, a hundred percent. 01:24:41.261 --> 01:24:43.061 Kevin Geary, thanks for hanging out today. 01:24:43.061 --> 01:24:46.551 Thanks for, sharing your thoughts and opinions on WordPress. 01:24:46.571 --> 01:24:49.131 Where do you want folks to go to say thanks? 01:24:49.201 --> 01:24:52.421 How do you want them to check you out on Twitter or on your 01:24:52.421 --> 01:24:53.841 website or your products? 01:24:53.841 --> 01:24:55.001 Give us everything you got. 01:24:55.341 --> 01:25:01.461 Kevin: Yep, everything is available@geary.co, so GEAR y.co. 01:25:02.691 --> 01:25:03.201 Matt: Awesome stuff. 01:25:03.201 --> 01:25:03.711 Kevin: Thanks, Kevin. 01:25:03.981 --> 01:25:04.401 Thank you.