Steven Evans 0:00 You all right. Well, thank you so much for being here, and for coming on and telling the show, you know, the honest truth, just about your experience, and just kind of going through the different stages, you know, and that's something that's important to me, and I hope can ultimately help a lot of people. Tony 0:18 Wait, I'm supposed to tell the truth. Speaker 1 0:20 Yes. Surprise, surprise, you know. And Speaker 2 0:23 this was all made up, Speaker 1 0:24 right, man? If only, if only, right. But Speaker 2 0:27 no, I'm just busting. Speaker 1 0:28 I think I think everybody has, like, you know, that image of a hero persona in their, their mind of who they, they kind of are in their arc. And I always want to ask, where, if you were to begin your own story, where you'd begin? Speaker 2 0:46 Hmm, Hazleton, Pennsylvania, I guess, where I was born. Nice. Yeah. Speaker 1 0:51 And what in Hazleton Speaker 2 0:54 is Northeast, Northeast PA? Speaker 1 0:56 Nice. Yeah, Speaker 2 0:57 you know. And I guess it would be my story comes way before me. You know, it's my family that came there, and you know, it was a bunch of coal miners, basically Italian and Irish immigrants, you know, came over and worked the mines. Speaker 1 1:13 Wow, yeah, I didn't know that they, you know, were working in the, like, literally in the mine. So the folks, they, so it was from which side of the family, Speaker 2 1:24 both sides, Speaker 1 1:25 both sides. Okay, so both everybody Speaker 2 1:26 there pretty much worked in the mines, you know. Speaker 1 1:29 Yeah, and that, although I just Speaker 2 1:30 found out my brother did this ancestry on my dad's side, actually, maybe they didn't work in the mines. My dad's side, he said, Whose great grandfather must have been was a butcher. Speaker 1 1:43 Wow, Speaker 2 1:45 and now I'm a surgeon. Yes, exactly. Hopefully not a butcher. Well, similar, you know, similar skill set, Speaker 1 1:51 you know, fine, fine cutting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 1:55 So, yeah, it's. I think that's helped give me, you know, a good perspective on life in general. You know, thinking back, for whatever reason, I don't remember when this came to me. Might have been in college, med school, you know, thinking back, how, you know, sometimes it's not easy, like you're struggling, you're staying up all night, you're studying, but you know, you think back to a generation, two generations, you know, before us, and the stuff that they had to go through. I mean, you know, imagine being in a mine, however many feet deep, with a little canary in the cage to see if the, you know, the air quality is going to take you out or not, like you know, if those people didn't do that, I wouldn't be here, Speaker 1 2:44 right? You Speaker 2 2:45 know, nobody in my family would have, you know, anything that they've had. If those folks, you, same thing, you know, folks in your family that have done those sacrifices, so you know, I think that I try to carry that as part of my story, you know, is where I've come from, and the countless people in my life that have guided me and been there with me, and you know, said, 'Hey, maybe go through this door. Yeah, Speaker 1 3:11 yeah, I mean, that's part of what we're here to kind of uncover and kind of think through, and, like, I always like to think through the moment, if you will, of leaving that safety net, right, the safety net of your home, and you know, whether your family, your parents, you know, your family of origin, as it's often called, so when kind of put me in that place of, you know, hey, I'm, you know, 18 or 17, you know, I'm excited, I've got accepted to some, you know, school, or I'm decided I'm gonna strike out on my own, and I'm gonna go for it. Yeah, you know, I remember Speaker 2 3:46 that some, like, some parts of that pretty vividly. Yeah, you know, I was 18, went, was going to college, and I remember pulling out of the driveway, you know, leaving my house to go drive to college in Philly, and I remember my grandmother, who, like, would never do this when we're leaving anywhere, like actually walked out the front door and like was waving goodbye. Wow, you know, like I remember that clearly. And then you know we went there. I don't remember all the details of the beginning of everything, but then my parents left, and then I remember there's this one bridge that you walk across, like from one side of the campus to the other. I went to St. Joe's, City Avenue runs through, like, part of the campus, and I lived in the Nerd House on the one side. So I was walking over the bridge, and I stopped at the bridge, and I was like looking up and down City Avenue to go to some event, you know, welcome event, and it was like becoming to be dusk, and I was like, holy shit, man, this is really it, like I'm on my own, this is the next phase of life, Speaker 1 4:52 yeah, Speaker 2 4:53 like it was a clear moment that I, I remember, Speaker 1 4:56 and then in that time, what was sort of the person. And that you were sort of hoping to become, or the person you were maybe telling yourself that you were, Speaker 2 5:06 you know, I, I really studied hard a lot, then, you know, I mean, I think in high school I had a good time, and I also studied hard, I played sports, you know, but when I went to college, I kind of had it in my mind, I think I want to go to medical school, so I, you know, I really bared down and worked hard, and I mean, that's what my mindset was initially, but I was also just open to whatever college was going to bring, you know, I was excited, like all young kids, you know, you go there and you're excited to see what it is, what it's about, Speaker 1 5:38 right, and I mean, the the idea of like working hard and the concept of, hey, this is what it takes, was that somebody something that somebody had handed to you, or maybe somebody had shared, you know, this is what it's going to take, Speaker 2 5:54 you know, I think kind of what I was touching on before, a little bit like just knowing the history of my family, and, like, my dad, even, like, I don't know, he would get up early in the morning, be out of the house, work one job, then come home, go do another job, and then come home at 7pm you know, most of the time, yeah, and he had some flexibility, where he'd make it to the baseball games, coat help coach, you know, do things, I definitely remember him being around, for sure, but you know, he was up early and home late often, but the region where I'm from, it was just like it's a really blue collar area, you know, people just are real, and you know there's just a.. I don't know if it's a work ethic combined with loyalty, and I don't know something deep, you know, that just gives you this drive to do things, but I think other part of it was just whatever in me. I guess I just had some ambition, and wanted, you know, I always was kind of challenging myself. I remember my mom saying, you know, I would be up late doing homework, she'd say go to bed, yeah, you know, not like, hey, stay up and do it, where my brother be like, I don't remember him ever doing homework, literally. I don't know how he, like, if he would have done more, he would have. But yeah, so I think it was a combination of things. I guess coaches, you know, I had some coaches that really, you know, helped me develop, I think, in sports discipline and a work ethic to show, like, hey, you put the effort in, you're gonna succeed. Teachers that certainly did the same thing, that saw something in me, and you know, pushed me, took the extra time to, you know, acknowledge me, or give me that extra urging to do something a little bit more than the standard level, I mean, so I think it was a lot of people in my life, family, certainly my mom, my dad always would encourage me to do things, but never pushed me, you know, they always just let it be like, hey, so, and I guess peers, I think I was around a lot of friends that also had, you know, similar drives that they were competitive and wanted to get better at basketball, better at baseball, better at football. We'd be playing outside, doing things all the time, to, you know, going to camps, going to the playground. So I was really lucky, I guess I could say I had really so many different aspects in my life where it kind of cultivated that spirit, you know, Speaker 1 8:49 and also you have the action part, right, sort of the, you know, studies the the behaviors and practicing right for sports or otherwise, but what about the inside, you know, where you're thinking about what matters, you know? What did you think at that point, you know, you needed to do to matter? Speaker 2 9:15 Well, you know, I think you wanted to do the right thing, you know, Speaker 1 9:21 yeah, Speaker 2 9:22 and I wanted to, I mean, we obviously did some wrong things too, but the idea is you want to grow up to save the world, you know, and make the world a better place, Speaker 1 9:30 right? You Speaker 2 9:30 know, I remember a friend of mine, we were in high school, going to have coffee like old men at this, you know, a place in town that we'd always go and talk about, you know, someday getting into politics, and you know, doing things that are really going to help people, you know, make the world a better place, pretty much. You know, I think, you know, we never talked about, hey, let's conquer the world and make so much money and do this, it was really about. Or let's make some kind of positive change when it really came down to it, you know, Speaker 1 10:04 right, right, and I guess in terms of the motivations there it sounds like that's a pretty, pretty strong motivator for, you know, the work ethic required that then comes next, right, for you know you're in college, you're studying, you know, there's all the craziness of college, right? Whether it's, you know, this to study, to go to a party, to not study, right, all of the above, right? And, like, how did that help, you know, coming from where you came from, you know, to make those decisions to help you, you know, stay on the right path, Speaker 2 10:40 yeah. you know, I'm really not sure. I just.. I always wanted to just crush everything, you know? I just wanted to know the most possible. I never wanted to get anything wrong. I just wanted to know the subjects and inside and out I'm not sure, yeah, you know why that is, or but it wasn't for a grade necessarily, you know, and it wasn't because I wanted to be better than the other person, it was I wanted to master that subject and really completely get it, yeah, and then I also had another, like, besides that side of it, like the studies in college, I had a completely, you know, formational experience in terms of, you know, what I truly thought it meant to be human and alive, and everything, and you know, social justice type stuff, that kind of thing, was, you know, probably even more influential than any of the other stuff in college, I mean, I was a chemistry major, you know, Speaker 1 12:01 yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's all I feel like part of the experience, because you go and you, you go in with one idea of who you want to be, and then you kind of get exposed to a bunch of other things in these four year sprints, and then you know kind of you come out a different person, yeah, and you know it's I feel like who you go in, you know, to college as, as a person, you come out completely different, you know, in some ways, and that's part of the transition. I feel like the one of the sort of passages that every kind of guy goes through, you know, and I think for me it was, you know, I was going to go to, you know, become a film major, as an example, and my, you know, dad was, he said, you know, heck no, think of, think again, you're not going to become, you know, but a film major, and this is not, you know, what you should pursue, and you know, I then decided to write political theory or economics might be the right choice, but you know, thinking through the thinking through that decision, there were two sides of me, on the both on in there, you know, there's the artistic sort of side, where I'm curious about how do you position, let's say, you know, videography in a certain way to make the elicit an emotion from the audience, compared to you know, thinking through goods and services, and indifference curves, and all that craziness in economics. I, you know, I had to choose one side over the other, where I, you know, prefer, I had to prefer, in order to get a job, marketable skills, and it was a sacrifice, I think, in the long run, Speaker 2 13:42 you always got to make trade-offs. Yeah, what films kind of inspired you, like, to want to be doing that? Like, do you remember certain films growing up or something that was like, 'Wow, that's what I want to do. Like, this really is amazing. This, do you have any moments that you remember, Speaker 1 14:01 yeah. Well, I think when I was a kid, the best movie I can recall was A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe, right, where he thinks through, he has a mental illness, but he doesn't know at the beginning, and so you, as the audience, kind of go through that experience of the discovery and the panic and the terror of all of it, all the while you know it's it's a love story, right, about him and his wife, and how she sort of centers and guides and light and surfaces his light, you know, to him winning the Nobel Nobel Prize. I mean, that, that for me was one of my favorite movies, one because of the story, but also because of the way it was shot, you know, and the way that the director keeps the audience guessing the whole time. Speaker 2 14:48 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, Speaker 1 14:49 yeah. So I always wanted to do something like that, and you know, maybe in the future, you know, we'll get there, but here I am. Look, the podcast, look what we're Speaker 2 14:58 doing now, yeah. Yeah, certainly. You know, hitting that creative side, and yeah, you know, I think it's a segue into what you wanted to do. Yeah, Speaker 1 15:10 fingers crossed, you know. We'll see, you know. And I think when it comes to that time, though, it's.. it's.. it's always.. I don't want to say hit or miss, but it's sort of like the cashier is like cat, right? You know, depending on when you look at it, it could be one thing or another, right. And you know, I feel like when you're deciding, okay, I really think I'm going to go to medicine, and I'm going to, you know, 100% commit to this path, kind of walk me through what you felt like you might be maybe leaving behind or giving up as a trade off Speaker 2 15:51 baseball was one of the things I guess you know I was considering walking on trying out for the baseball team at St Joe's, but then I thought, well, I don't know if I want to try to do med school, potentially. Let me just focus on that, you know. So I decided against, you know, trying out for the baseball team as a walk-on, and just focused on the studies, which I have no regrets about. Yeah, you know, once I decided on medicine, I didn't really think about what I was going to be missing out on, you know. I know that there were plenty of sacrifices and things that I missed: weddings, being in weddings, funerals, birthdays, all those kind of things throughout my training, med school, residency, I mean, taking call, so many things I missed, but you know that I didn't carry that as a like a negative aspect, I guess, or I didn't like have sorrow about things I was missing, I obviously, I felt bad when there were things I like couldn't go to my cousin's wedding that I was supposed to be in, or my best friend's wedding that I was supposed to be in, and I just couldn't go, like not allowed to leave the program, you know. At this point, it's just the way that the hierarchy goes, and I think everybody was understanding. I'm sure that they kind of felt bad a little bit, but it's tough because nobody.. I don't think you really know, unless you're walking those shoes, you know. Yeah, like I had no idea what I was getting myself into, especially with surgery, like you do rotations, and you see, but you really have no idea what it actually is until you're walking in those shoes, but yeah, when I was in medical school, no, sorry, in college, yeah, I wasn't 100% sure I was working towards doing medical school things, and then I took this awesome philosophy class my freshman year. It was a service learning class they have at St. Joe's, so you go to a service site for three hours a week all year long, in conjunction with your class, and then people from the Service Learning Department, there are other college students come in, and they help guide discussions based on what you're learning in the class, what you're experiencing at your service site, kind of to deepen your humanity. Speaker 1 18:36 Yeah, Speaker 2 18:37 is really what it's about, and that was like really like getting into me, then my grandmother Speaker 1 18:46 died, and Speaker 2 18:47 I was like that hit me, you know, she lived with us for a long time, and you know, made me start thinking about all of that stuff that we were talking about in philosophy class, the human person and moral philosophy, I think, were the two the full year long course, and going to the service, talking about these things. Then my dad died the following year, and I actually joined the service learning department, which was like one of the most amazing things I've ever done in my life, you know, the people involved in that, the way we supported each other, kind of, you know, it was an intentional community, you really checked in with each other and tried to help each other grow as individuals, but also as a community, challenged each other, supported each other, Speaker 1 19:40 right, Speaker 2 19:41 I mean, it's so easy to do in college, I guess, because it's this, you know, bubble thing, but it was like really a great model of way we should live at the same time, you know, I had, you know, grown up Catholic, I wasn't really too religious or. Spiritual, but the Jesuits at St. Joe's were just so they're so insightful and so welcoming, and there was no judgment about anything, and it wasn't, you know, hey, do this, do that, it was more of an enlightenment, like, hey, let's talk about things, you know, and that cocktail of everything helped me really think hard about, you know, what do I want to do that when I'm on my deathbed, I'm going to say, okay, that was a good life, you know, it just helped me cut away all the fat, all the bullshit, nothing, the stuff that doesn't matter, and I just kind of really, since then, I think, I hope that I know I lost sight many times, but it's given me a good idea of what's my home, you know, like what keeps my heart pumping and makes me truly feel, you know, at one with what I'm doing and the way I'm living my life, and you know, I thought being a doctor, man, I mean, I think this is something I should do for sure, Speaker 1 21:16 and I mean, there's there's definitely a lot there to go through and to impact, but there are, for example, grandmother passing away, and you know, father passing away. Those are two extreme losses. And my Speaker 2 21:32 dog, I forgot to, yeah, right. Oh my gosh, and your dog at the same time, but Speaker 1 21:36 still it's like it's still a lot in a very, very short period of time, and you know it helped to, it seems to crystallize for you what mattered, and it helped to make, make clear. Okay, so this could be what a good life looks like, if you know at the end of the day we are all out of here, you know, same way, you know, pine box, whichever. How do I want to live that life, you know? And I mean, was there anything that maybe they had shared with you about, you know, perhaps your journey or their hopes or maybe ways of living that they, that you espouse to now or aspire to? Sorry, yeah, Speaker 2 22:20 you know, probably, but I think a lot of, you know, I've been thinking about this lately, a lot too, like, you know, we try to say so many things to our kids, and, or whoever, and I'm sure some of that sticks, and there are things that I remember, but I think it's just modeling, you know, be the change you wish to see, you know, you know, live the life the way you would want others to live, right, and you know, I think that has the most impact, and honestly, like, the simplest thing that just came back to me is just, it's love, man. It's like it's the purest, simplest form of love, like that's just completely untouched, you know? Like that simple, pure form of love, like that's what it's about, that's what this whole thing is about, and if you could cut away everything else, you could just get down to that, and that's what you focus on. I mean, with you, even here, man, like we're not family, we're friends, but like that's how I connect with you, is like really just trying to break away everything that has impacted you, has impacted me, and realize, hey, we're these two humans that are here walking this earth together at this same time, and you know, really, the greatest connection you can have with another person is just getting that, that level of love, that's you know, just loving each other for being humans and the person you are. Yeah, you know, and if you can open that to strangers, you know, they respond to that. I mean, I'm sure you've seen the same kind of thing, maybe not described that way, but that's how I think that maybe they modeled love in their life, the things that they did, the things that they said, things that they do. I mean, I remember my dad, you know, and my dad was older, you know, he was an older dad, you know, for me being a young kid, and me thinking now, too, when you're working, getting up early, working all day. I mean, he knew I loved baseball. I remember him in our basement getting these little golf wiffle balls, like little golf, you know what? You know what I'm talking about? They're golf balls, but they're wiffle balls, and he wanted to work my hand-eye coordination, and we weren't, you know, we're probably from here to there. Not very far, and he'd just be pitching to me, and I'm swinging like with a real bat, hitting these wiffle balls, and you know, hitting him, and just taking that extra effort at night. I never remember this being in the daytime, you know. It was always, it was always dark out. Speaker 1 25:14 Yeah, Speaker 2 25:15 you know, we're just doing that. You know, that's that love. You know, I mean, that's just, you don't have to say, "Hey, I love you so much, and, or, whatever. It's good to say those things. It's good to put it into words. Some people need to hear that, but living out those actions, modeling your life in that way, it you know, I know how much my dad loved me. He didn't have to say it to me once, you know, just by his actions. I know how much my grandmother loved me. I know how much my mom loves me, and you know, people in my life. Yeah, Speaker 1 25:56 yeah, man. And, like, when you come, it comes to, you know, I would say the culmination of their, you know, efforts and the lessons that they've imbued in you, you know, bring us to almost to today, you know, where some you are now responsible for, you know, a family, you have a life, you know, those kinds of things, you know, walk me through the transition that passage from, you know, med school to today, and you know the motivation that you've had and the identity that you've had, and how it's held up in that time. Speaker 2 26:36 Yeah, you know, I think that a couple things. One is where I came from, and kind of how I'm kind of an old school guy, and in the sense of, you know, you work hard to take care of your family, you know, and it doesn't matter what happens to you, to you, or you know, you got to make sure that you're just putting the grind in to put food on the table and help your family get what they need, and again, I never really tried to complain about it, or making that comparison, like, hey, I have to stay up 2430 hours doing this, not eating that much, but hey, I had grandparents that were in a mine, like, and I'm a surgeon, like, can I really? Yes, everybody can complain about things, but like, if you keep that in the focus, maybe it was a good thing, maybe it was a bad thing, but that was one sense of it, like, and I think you have this same thing. We've talked about this before. You want to provide, right? That's not the most important thing, though. Speaker 1 27:51 Right? Speaker 2 27:51 I mean, it's essential, but it's not the most important. I think the most important thing is just what I was talking about, man. It's love, you know? Just don't get caught up, try not to get caught up. I mean, we're all human, and shit's gonna happen, but I mean, just let that love shine through, and for your kids, for your family, like that's really the most important thing, I think, is just making everybody know that they're loved and supported, and that's just the way I was raised. I mean, countless people, like everybody, not just my immediate family, who certainly that was the case, love and support, work ethic, but coaches, teachers, aunts, un uncles, cousins, extended family, friends, parents of friends. You know, I think all helped kind of bring that, that to fruition. I think, but you know, it's tough to balance that, right? You know, I mean, we've talked about this. It's, it's tough to balance, but you got to try. Speaker 1 29:08 Yeah, I mean, Speaker 2 29:09 even if it's not a balance, it's in balance. You got to try your best, you know. Speaker 1 29:12 Absolutely, absolutely. And it sounds like from the community and the folks, the family that you've had, the lessons that they've shared, was there ever a moment where you kind of found yourself kind of reaching for those lessons that they shared, but then perhaps they were no longer helpful, you know? Or maybe, you know, man, I've come to this period where in my life where I don't have anything that I can reach for to help me, you know. Have you ever found yourself in a place like that? Speaker 2 29:45 I mean, I don't know if I'll answer the question exactly, and maybe you can rephrase what you're looking for, but I think I've definitely gotten to a point where I'm like, okay, I'm at. The point in my career where I'm good, you know, I know my trade, I'm good at it, I'm comfortable with it, like whatever you guys bring at me, I'm okay with dealing with it, maybe it's stressful, maybe it's not, but I know how to handle it, like you've attained that, this thing that I like, if I go back and think, holy shit, you're gonna be a surgeon doing this stuff. Like, when I was going to med school, I was planning to do just family, not just, but family medicine. Never even thought about surgery. But then, yeah, you get to a point, and you're like, okay, I'm here, I'm doing this, going to do surgery, I'm coming home, we're doing these things. You're like, is this it? You know, is this.. is this where we're at? Is this it? And am I just going to do this for the next 3040 years? And then, you know, that's life, Speaker 1 30:50 right? Speaker 2 30:51 You know, I don't know if that's kind of answering the question you were asking or not, but. but then new things come along, right? You know, like, and you know, just talking with Loretta, my daughter, about this yesterday, about I love school. She asked me, "Do you like school when you were a kid? I'm like, "I still love school, I love learning, I love reading, I love, you know, learning new things, and if you keep that curiosity about life and learning new things, it just opens up so many doors, so many things to just keep you going, and where that comes from, I don't know. I mean, but Speaker 1 31:42 I mean, I don't even Speaker 2 31:43 remember what your question was. Another beer, we only sniffed one, I know, right? Speaker 1 31:49 Barely, but still, still good. But I think you know, when it comes to the constant curiosity, that's something I've heard has helped folks like people stay grounded, especially when things feel uncertain, you know, and making sure that, okay, well, if I, if I come up against anything new, I can count on myself to either handle it or I can learn how to handle it, and that in itself provides like a sense of stability, a sense of confidence, and that's sort of what I'm hearing, especially as it relates to your career, you know, and like there are, you know, I always, when I'm working, I try to hold myself accountable, right, if you know I'm struggling with something, or you know, person asks for something, and I find myself making a mistake. For example, I always say, well, if I was a surgeon, you know, if I made a mistake, well, there's a lawsuit for me. Not always, you can Speaker 2 32:50 fix mistakes, mistakes, Speaker 1 32:52 yeah, just got to be Speaker 2 32:53 honest about it. I think that's what it is, Speaker 1 32:55 right? Right. And I think when it comes to, you know, the perfection that's sort of expected in a way of a lot of us, it can become draining, not only draining, but it can conflict so much in a way with your identity that it makes you feel objectified, right, like I am only, I am only as good as my what I produce, right? You know, if you think about that, you know, it's sort of like a Marxist idea of, you know, when the human is associated so closely with the means of production, it strips away in many ways what it means to be human. Speaker 2 33:40 I've never thought that way, Speaker 1 33:41 right? Speaker 2 33:41 Yeah, no, I've never thought that way, ever. Speaker 1 33:44 Yeah, Speaker 2 33:44 you know, I think maybe I'm more Marxist. Yeah, no, no, it's more the human looking at the human, right? I mean, I'm more at that, who you are, not what you do, Speaker 1 33:56 right, Speaker 2 33:57 not what you produce. I mean, and I've hoped that that's what I've been judged as, to you know, who I am, not what I do, what I mean. Obviously, I want to, Speaker 1 34:11 yeah, be Speaker 2 34:12 perfect in my job and the things that I do, but, like you said, we're all imperfect, and no, no, I, I don't think I've ever kind of went along those lines of those lines. Speaker 1 34:25 Yeah, Speaker 2 34:26 I never.. I don't think I really kind of went down that path. I mean, it obviously plays a role, you know? You do want to do well, you want to be.. I mean, or at least I do. I want to be the best at what I do, you know. Of course, maybe some people don't. I guess they're like, 'Hey, I'm fine just doing this thing, but yeah, but I don't think that that's really truly Speaker 1 34:58 how you judge each other. Right, right. I agree, I agree, and like, when you think about the, you know, when the marriage, then the children, you know, they all arrived. I mean, what is layering all of the, you know, complexity of that on top of your existing performance and work and all that stuff? Bring kind of walk me through, you know, how that affected you, and Speaker 2 35:22 you know, I just rolled with it, honestly. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I did. I just rolled with it, and I think that was a mistake. You know, I think, or maybe it wasn't a mistake, but I didn't know much better, I guess. Biz, I was busy working, you know, in love, in love with wife, kids, life, but you know, looking back, kind of getting to why you're doing this podcast, you know, was that Miss Conversation or something, or the Speaker 1 35:58 missing conversation, yeah, Speaker 2 36:01 you know, I've recently certainly had many thoughts of man. I wish my dad was alive. I wish I could sit down and just talk with my dad a little bit about this or that, and you know, I think that I've always at least shown that I think, hey, I got my head on my shoulders, I'm doing the right thing, I'm being successful, I'm like, have this, you know, great family, great job, kind of people, or whatever the viewpoint is, but that I would have been open to hearing for a little bit more guidance on, hey, this is the way things might play out in life, and this is what's coming in this decade. This is what's coming in that decade, Speaker 1 37:04 right? Speaker 2 37:04 You know, take this seriously. You know, sit down, think about it. And certainly, I'm sure people have said things along the way, but those real missing conversations, like you're saying, you know, I think this is huge, man. What you're doing, and I'd encourage anybody that's willing to come have a couple beers and sit with an awesome guy and chat about it. Who knows what's going to happen with this, but I think just us talking about it's good for us, you know, right? But that that component that can give a little insight, guidance, pull you out like somebody that's been through it, and they're going to tell you, hey, you know, like make sure you watch out for this and do that, so Speaker 1 38:02 yeah. I was there like anything that particularly like blindside is pretty strong, but anything that took you by surprise, you know, that maybe stepping into the role of father or provider kind of that maybe you weren't prepared for. Speaker 2 38:24 I mean, everything. Yeah, I mean, come on, man, you're doing it too. Yep, everything, everything about like everything about life. Speaker 1 38:33 Yeah, Speaker 2 38:34 pretty much. You know, like I said, I mean, I went through med school, was training, training, training. You finish med school, you're like, I'm a doctor, and then you realize, no, I'm not, I have to go through residency, then I'll actually be a doctor, and like, residency, you have no idea what that Speaker 1 38:53 is, Speaker 2 38:53 and then you go through it, and you're like, wow, that was nuts, and then you go and start actually working, like, whoa. so much more. I mean, in life, I mean, you think, oh yeah, I want to have a family and do this, but I mean, I took on two young girls, you know, at an early stage in my life during my training, and, and then had two younger kids later, too, Speaker 1 39:27 right? Speaker 2 39:28 And you know, guidance, no, I mean, it was really, and how to do it, yeah, it was figure it out, kind of thing, and just try to be loving. I think that's, I think that's the one thing that I was able to fall back on, not knowing the playbook, and I'm sure there's so many different playbooks, you could grab a book about every different way to do it, but you know, if you try to be loving. And kind throughout all of it, I think that you know brings you to a place where you're doing the right thing, you know, Speaker 1 40:11 and like was there anything that you were building, you know, in a psychological landscape, for example, to help you manage, you know, the new responsibilities, and let's say the new challenges you mentioned, constantly learning, and you mentioned, you know, trying to make sure that you know you were focused on the right things, but what about, for example, learning to, you know, change a diaper, and and laughing at the craziness of how you know baby poop is anti gravity for some reason. It travels up and all of a sudden it's in their hair, right? You know, like unbelievable. I have to clean this up now. You know, the mix, the mismatch between that, that reality of the chaos of kids and perhaps the pristine and linear and clean sort of path of being a surgeon. Speaker 2 41:09 Well, that's not that linear and clean, maybe not. Yeah, that's pretty. That can be pretty chaotic, and things can change on a dime in a second. And so I think the kids thing was, you know, I think the biggest thing with the kids was more not the chaos of it, but this new opening of a love that's like, whoa, this is crazy. Speaker 1 41:44 Wow, Speaker 2 41:44 you know how much you can love, and the responsibility, Speaker 1 41:50 yeah, Speaker 2 41:51 and the care, like, you just want everything to be okay, you know? I mean, everybody, almost every parent would say, "Oh, you don't know until you have a kid, you know, although some parents do have kids, and they don't seem to get it. Yeah, Speaker 1 42:10 no, but, Speaker 2 42:11 or maybe they do, and whatever happened in their life, just they can't step up. But yeah, I think that was more the impactful thing for me, you know. Speaker 1 42:25 Yeah, I think for me, when I first ever wrote when Caden was born, I was.. we felt like he had.. he was mighty because his cry when he was born was so loud, it like, you know, was the first thing we heard in a very quiet operating room, you know, because he was delivered by C-section, so it was just like silent. You hear the beeping of the monitors, of course, and then all of a sudden you hear Cadence crying, and we're like, "Wow, this is amazing, you know. And that was him, our first born, and so I think since then it was definitely the responsibility, but also the, the wanting to cherish that moment, that for as long as I can to bring to his every day, you know, like, yes, you are new, you are powerful, you are strong, you are all these great things, but from a dad perspective, it's how do I make sure that I can stay in the right head space to do that for him, because sometimes I'm not in the right headspace, you know, and I'm like, you know, I'm not, you know, tired from the day, or my bandwidth is low because of something, and maybe I'm hungry, or whatever, right? Some stupid reason, but I can't encourage him in the right moment. You know, he might miss a basketball shot or something, and instead of being emotional or not emotional, being attuned to what he needs in that moment, I might jump to coaching, right, because that's familiar, you know. Instead, just loving him, right, and hugging him, and telling him, man, I know you missed that shot, that must have really, really sucked. And, like, just being him, being there for him, you know, Speaker 2 44:18 100% I mean, that's exactly.. I was just gonna say, I mean, I've been there, buddy, you know, of course, Speaker 1 44:24 yeah, Speaker 2 44:25 but if we could just cut away all that fat and just see, like, you know, see that precious little kid in that delivery room, you know, I mean, and that's that's what you see all the time, you know, if you could keep that in your mind and you do, I mean, it's just.. it's tough to adhere to that all the time, but especially as the, you know, like what we're talking about here, the dad's side, if you're.. hey, I got to provide, I got to do this, I got to have to go out to work or stay out and work, do the. This thing, that thing, and I'm exhausted. Speaker 1 45:03 Yeah, Speaker 2 45:04 but I know that it's not that I need to do this for you. I want to do this too, but I'm not in the right frame of mind. I don't have the energy, but you know, just try to squeak out that shine, that one little light of love out there, and I think that they, they cut us some slack, Speaker 1 45:25 yeah, yeah. I think we're Speaker 2 45:27 harder on ourselves probably than our kids are on us, you know. Speaker 1 45:32 Yeah, yeah, because we, we want, we see the full circle, you know. Yeah, you know, we're like, I definitely don't want to hurt them. I don't want to give them, you know, anxieties about x, y, and z, and you know, we want to be their rock in a way, you know, but we're also human. We have our own insecurities, we have our own things that we're going through and dealing with. So, I feel like that's part of what the show's about. Speaker 2 45:59 Yeah, Speaker 1 45:59 yeah. Well, there's always I feel like, like a part in the middle of a career or in a person's life, called like the long middle, right, where you're you're grinding, you're working, and the goal is far away, you know, where it could be 10 years, 15 years, maybe it's I gotta keep working to get these kids to school, to get these kids into college, right. And so you know that stretch where you kind of question who you might be. I mean, walk me through sort of what that experience was like for you. I mean, from the inside, kind of the day in, the day out, you know, nine to however late you work, you know, just kind of getting through the grind of it, Speaker 2 46:55 you know, I think part of it was just put one one foot in front of the other, you know, wake up and do what you got to do. Speaker 1 47:05 Yeah, yep, Speaker 2 47:07 I got it. I think certainly talking about goals, and this is where I want to be, keeping that in mind while you're getting through it was, you know, helpful, useful, coming home to a family, Speaker 1 47:26 yeah, Speaker 2 47:27 is really, you know, I think, oh, this is why I'm doing it, this is why I'm here, this is why I keep pushing and pushing, is for this, you know, for them, and to see we can create together, and we can have, and we'll get there, you know, we'll get there, and it's not really, we'll get there, you know, something that remember, if it was a, I think it was a book I was reading when I was in college, and it was talking about how, like, this kind of thing. Hey, we'll get there, you know, that when you call it the long middle, or whatever it is, that takes, say, you're getting going on a vacation, right? Hey, when are we going to get there? When are we going to get there? When are we going to get there? What about the journey? Speaker 1 48:22 Right, Speaker 2 48:23 you know, the journey.. there's so much, so much to see and feel and live. I mean, we're losing that part of our life if we don't truly be present to that journey, Speaker 1 48:38 right? Speaker 2 48:40 And I remember taking a trip, I think I was.. I don't even remember what the trip was for. I think it must have been for a med school interview, or yeah, it must have been a med school interview, because I was taking a flight from Philly to Chicago. I think I was going to interview at Northwestern, and I was like, let me just really be present to this journey, and I remember when I left, like, my place in Philly to when I landed in Chicago, I was like, "Holy shit, I could write a book. No, I literally can write a book, like being so present to just that journey, it was so enriching, and there was so much that I experienced just being present in that simple trip. I'll never forget, you know, I'll never forget that Martin Sexton. I don't know if you ever listened to Marty, but you know, he's a great songwriter, singer, guitarist, but he's got a song in the journey too. Music's another thing, by the way, you know, along my whole life, that's really been there with me. I've always thought about, you know, if I ever wrote an autobiography, the chapters would be, you know, Dave Matthews' era, Grateful Dead era, Martin Sexton, you know, like whoever it was, Bob Marley era, right? You know, those are the times in my life where that was really what I was listening to, mostly, but the journey, you know, I think being present to that experience, not just, hey, I'm in this grind, and we're going to get there, we're going to get to whatever we're trying to achieve, but really truly living, you know, being awake, and really it's the human interactions. I mean, that's every day, if you're able to just have real, true interactions with people, great people that you know and love, like we're doing right here, strangers, just having a real interaction, nothing that's, you know, fake, and you know you put on an air about yourself. No, just be yourself, let them be their self, and you know, you, it's a dance you get with people, and you know you connect, Speaker 1 51:18 right? Speaker 2 51:21 Long-winded answer to whatever the fuck the question was. Well, a good Speaker 1 51:25 answer, I think. And, and when it comes to, like, looking, I would say, like, looking back across the full arc of your life, and not the version you designed, but the one you actually lived, what was the thing that you would say turned out to matter to you the most, not necessarily like a lesson or advice, but like just what your life has showed you that maybe you couldn't have seen from the beginning. One Speaker 2 51:55 thing I mean, it's people, Speaker 1 52:05 yeah, Speaker 2 52:06 definitely. That's without question the people that have been in my life. Speaker 1 52:11 Yeah, Speaker 2 52:12 that's there's nothing you can't take me to any view in the world any experience anything anywhere out of this world? Even I think that would compare to the people that have been in my life, and you know, have walked with me, walked along with me, carried me on their shoulders, or I carried them at some point, hugged each other, cried with each other, laughed with each other, fought each other, got wrecked with each other, went to a concert, stayed up all night drinking coffee, talking about some kind of philosophical thing, arguing about politics, learning from my children. Speaker 1 53:06 Yeah, Speaker 2 53:09 yeah, definitely people, Speaker 1 53:11 yeah, big time, 100% I agree, and like when it comes to maybe some of the takeaways from those seasons in your life, you know, was there a person that maybe stuck out to you most that helped, or maybe a season that you've heard you would say applies maybe even to today? Speaker 2 53:39 I mean, there were a lot of people, Speaker 1 53:41 yeah, Speaker 2 53:42 definitely, yeah, there were a lot of people thinking about, you know, just the time that I'm in right now with, you know, severe, oh, playing baseball, me coaching, like, I think it back to my little league coach, Ronnie Gray, Speaker 1 53:58 yeah, Speaker 2 53:58 you know, he was just, he was a special dude, you know, just encouraged everybody, and like he was a coach, like just made everybody feel like they were the best player on the team, and we were playing as a team, Speaker 1 54:23 right? Speaker 2 54:23 You know, and how to win together, how to have fun together, how to lose together, how to work hard, how to take care of each other. You know, that's what I think is important with sports, all the lessons you can learn with it, but you know, he was certainly one that's, you know, well, I'm not talking about family, obviously, in family, there's so many people too, Speaker 1 54:49 but I mean, it shows you just even the importance of coaches and the other roles in your life, you know, I also had many people for me who ended up becoming. Sort of cornerstones of my sense of self and sense of what it means to be a man, and to pursue that sense of masculinity, and coaches, for example, my crew coach or baseball coach, have been really cornerstones for me, definitely, definitely. Well, thank you for your time, for coming on the show, and for honoring us with the truth, that's it, that's it, that's it, that's always Speaker 2 55:25 easy, man, Speaker 1 55:26 yeah, man, hey, that's that's what it is, Speaker 2 55:28 it's your turn now, Speaker 1 55:29 I know, right, we'll see, maybe some will interview me, we'll turn around and do a special one with just me, but yeah, that's that's a show, man, and you know, appreciate you being honest and open, and really, you know, sharing with us your opinion and your story. I think that's really what speaks, you know, the.. it's not necessarily the lessons, and you know, five bullet points to better x, y, and z. I did Speaker 2 55:56 write down a couple things, right? Speaker 1 55:58 Exactly, it's the story, and really the real life of everyone that is so unique, and I hope that you know our listeners will, will really kind of jive with the story and grok what you're putting out, man. So, well, it's unique. Speaker 2 56:12 Sorry to interrupt here, you know, it's unique, but it's not, you know, we're all we're all riding the same wave, man. Speaker 1 56:19 Yeah, Speaker 2 56:19 I think, and this is that's what's so good about this. Yes, we have our unique lives, but so much that's we all got to walk that same road. Speaker 1 56:33 Yeah, yep, and better together. I agree. Speaker 2 56:36 Jack Johnson said that too. Better together. You don't know that. Listening to a live version of that, so good, Speaker 1 56:43 really. Yeah, here we'll play this. Just outro, that will be the outro. Yeah. Speaker 2 56:48 Oh my god, such a good song. Let me just pull it up. I think it should be on. Oh yeah, listen to this. Hopefully it works.