[Ian Landsman]: Hello?
[Aaron]: Welcome back. We're gonna start right away. I got a bone to pick with you, Ian.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh baby,
[Aaron]: Yeah, welcome home from vacation.
[Ian Landsman]: I love some
[Aaron]: You said
[Ian Landsman]: controversy.
[Aaron]: on Twitter that Taylor Swift is the greatest business person of her generation,
[Aaron]: as if Taylor Swift and I weren't born in 1989, the same year. So here's the issue.
[Aaron]: If we're judging by money or
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: sold out stadiums or... Cultural Impact or
[Ian Landsman]: Sure.
[Aaron]: Platinum Albums? Sure, fine, she's the best. If we're judging by maintained and
[Aaron]: half maintained GitHub repos, I'm on the list. I
[Ian Landsman]: You're out
[Aaron]: gotta
[Ian Landsman]: there.
[Aaron]: be above her, right?
[Ian Landsman]: You have to be right? I think
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: so. I
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: can't imagine
[Aaron]: I guess my point
[Ian Landsman]: her.
[Aaron]: is, what are we judging on is the question.
[Ian Landsman]: I can't imagine her GitHub repo game is as strong as yours, right? Like
[Aaron]: I appreciate
[Ian Landsman]: I just can't.
[Aaron]: that.
[Ian Landsman]: I just can't.
[Aaron]: I was just looking for a little, like, a little nuance to the conversation.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh man, yeah, I know it's, uh, she's so good. I don't know, but yeah.
[Aaron]: So she's now selling, she's now outselling like Avengers in pre, what is it? She's doing
[Aaron]: a concert movie that she's pre-selling?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so she's had like the biggest concert series ever over this past
[Ian Landsman]: year. And it actually continues into next year. But, uh, you know, tickets
[Ian Landsman]: are, I don't know, a friend of mine, uh, just bought tickets for like $3,000
[Ian Landsman]: a ticket for next November. So, I mean, it's
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: insane.
[Aaron]: my gosh.
[Ian Landsman]: Um, and so she's been on this tour. and she's been recording, you know, obviously
[Ian Landsman]: she's recording videos of herself. I think
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: all artists do this, like they record the audio and the video, whatever, just
[Ian Landsman]: in case they ever wanna use it for something. But she's obviously got more
[Ian Landsman]: of a plan than that, and she's releasing it in the movie theaters. So you
[Ian Landsman]: can go see it in this break of the tour over the winter, she's not
[Aaron]: Amazing.
[Ian Landsman]: performing till next spring, she's gonna have the movie, so people who can't
[Ian Landsman]: spend $3,000 can go see it in the movie theater 20 bucks or whatever. So
[Ian Landsman]: I of course got tickets to go see
[Aaron]: Of
[Ian Landsman]: it
[Aaron]: course,
[Ian Landsman]: in IMAX.
[Aaron]: yeah!
[Ian Landsman]: You know, I need a seven story Taylor Swift
[Aaron]: Of course.
[Ian Landsman]: and yeah, I'm pretty excited about
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: My wife and several of our friends went to the tour and they
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: resurrected the group chat and were like, all right, when are we buying tickets
[Aaron]: to go see the movie? It's like, yeah, of course
[Ian Landsman]: You
[Aaron]: they're
[Ian Landsman]: gotta
[Aaron]: going to go
[Ian Landsman]: see
[Aaron]: see
[Ian Landsman]: it. Yeah. All the
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: angles
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: you can see.
[Aaron]: I think I saw AMC movie theaters said that they were like beefing up their infrastructure
[Aaron]: so that they could start doing the presale. and somebody was like talking about
[Aaron]: how Taylor Swift is an ops queen because she's making all of these companies
[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe
[Aaron]: increase their ops so that they can handle the rush.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, and that's what you were saying, is that AMC broke all kinds of records
[Ian Landsman]: for presales
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and things. And yeah, so I mean, she's just gonna print all the money. It's
[Ian Landsman]: like, she's totally ready, right? She's had a plan. Like, I didn't even consider
[Ian Landsman]: this. I don't think
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: many people even thought about it. I don't think anybody knew about it. And
[Ian Landsman]: she just comes out of the blue, obviously well planned, not actually out of
[Ian Landsman]: the blue. And it's like, boom, oh, tour's ended for this year. Here it is
[Ian Landsman]: in the movie theater. Everybody
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: can go. And...
[Aaron]: And super smart that she didn't cannibalize her own tour sales, because
[Ian Landsman]: Yes,
[Aaron]: it wasn't like, there
[Ian Landsman]: wait
[Aaron]: will be
[Ian Landsman]: on that.
[Aaron]: a movie, you don't have to come.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: Nope.
[Ian Landsman]: nope. She's and then while the iron's hot, right, while
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: everybody's talking about it and it's a huge cultural moment, it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: boom, nope, it keeps going. We're not stopping the train. Here's here's
[Ian Landsman]: the movie version. And obviously,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: then there'll be the home version and blah, blah. And yeah, so I mean, it's just
[Ian Landsman]: going to lead
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: into
[Aaron]: I will allow
[Ian Landsman]: next year.
[Aaron]: it. I will allow her to edge me out for business person of the year 1989. That
[Aaron]: sounds fine to me.
[Ian Landsman]: What an honor that you were born in the same
[Aaron]: Right?
[Ian Landsman]: year as Taylor Swift.
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: That's, that's amazing. I wish
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: I could
[Aaron]: know.
[Ian Landsman]: say that. Unbelievable.
[Aaron]: I know. It's really it's an honor and it's also like, oh, dang, we're the same age.
[Aaron]: Shoot, that sucks.
[Ian Landsman]: She's a little ahead.
[Aaron]: Yeah. We're playing a different game,
[Ian Landsman]: Money
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: wise,
[Aaron]: all. We're, yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, different
[Aaron]: money-wise,
[Ian Landsman]: game.
[Aaron]: not open source repo-wise.
[Ian Landsman]: You know, if you listen to her songs, you know, she has not done so well in
[Ian Landsman]: the love department. And I think you're ahead in the love
[Aaron]: That
[Ian Landsman]: department
[Aaron]: is true.
[Ian Landsman]: and the kid department and all the, that end of the world, you're in the lead.
[Aaron]: That is
[Ian Landsman]: You're
[Aaron]: true, that is
[Ian Landsman]: just
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: behind
[Aaron]: very good
[Ian Landsman]: on the
[Aaron]: point.
[Ian Landsman]: money, but you're working on that.
[Aaron]: But
[Ian Landsman]: We
[Aaron]: we'll
[Ian Landsman]: got
[Aaron]: get
[Ian Landsman]: you there.
[Aaron]: there, yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: We'll get there, y'all come to my movie. Okay, so you're back.
[Ian Landsman]: I'm back and you're back. This
[Aaron]: We're all
[Ian Landsman]: is the
[Aaron]: back.
[Ian Landsman]: first episode that we're in
[Aaron]: Uh-huh.
[Ian Landsman]: our, both in home turf. So
[Aaron]: That's right.
[Ian Landsman]: this is exciting.
[Aaron]: How was the
[Ian Landsman]: Proper
[Aaron]: return
[Ian Landsman]: cameras.
[Aaron]: home?
[Ian Landsman]: Good. We also had a long, you know, you were on a long trip. This
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: is like the longest trip, like road trip, I think we've really ever taken
[Ian Landsman]: down to the Outer Banks. So that was a bit of a haul, but the kids are
[Ian Landsman]: big now. So it wasn't too bad, not too much fighting and crying and stuff
[Ian Landsman]: like that. Everybody's...
[Aaron]: That's good.
[Ian Landsman]: humanoid now, which is awesome.
[Aaron]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
[Ian Landsman]: And so, uh, yeah. So we actually stopped in DC both ways to, uh, just like break
[Ian Landsman]: up the trip to avoid the 11 or 12 hours straight through. Um, and
[Aaron]: Did
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: y'all do
[Ian Landsman]: worked
[Aaron]: any
[Ian Landsman]: out nice.
[Aaron]: like sightseeing or was it just overnight?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. The first, the way down, we did do say singing. We've been there a few
[Ian Landsman]: times before, but, um, you know, kind of walked the national mall,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I love the Lincoln Memorial. It's my favorite. So hit up Lincoln. Um, did
[Ian Landsman]: that kind of area. And then I know we went out to dinner, whatnot. And
[Ian Landsman]: then way back, we were gonna go to the postal museum. We didn't even realize
[Ian Landsman]: there was a postal
[Aaron]: Oh.
[Ian Landsman]: museum. We were like, oh, postal museum. But anyway, it didn't happen.
[Aaron]: What is that?
[Ian Landsman]: We got
[Aaron]: Just
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: a bunch
[Ian Landsman]: too
[Aaron]: of
[Ian Landsman]: late.
[Aaron]: letters? Or what do
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: they have
[Ian Landsman]: this
[Aaron]: there?
[Ian Landsman]: is what the kids theory was. Like it's just stamps.
[Aaron]: That's just
[Ian Landsman]: Not
[Aaron]: lost
[Ian Landsman]: going to see
[Aaron]: mail.
[Ian Landsman]: just stamps. Yeah, it's all lost mail. So I don't know what's there because
[Ian Landsman]: I didn't get to it because we got
[Aaron]: Oh, well.
[Ian Landsman]: going kind of late and then it wasn't gonna work out. So everybody was
[Ian Landsman]: exhausted. But we just went into the hotel. I played poker because there
[Ian Landsman]: was a
[Aaron]: Did
[Ian Landsman]: reasonable
[Aaron]: you win?
[Ian Landsman]: casino there. I lost a few hundred dollars, so not too
[Aaron]: Ah!
[Ian Landsman]: bad. But I did play like a super long session and it was a good game. Like there
[Ian Landsman]: was, it was a great game actually, but I just couldn't find the right spots.
[Aaron]: If I know anything about gambling and I don't, the strategy is you should chase your
[Aaron]: losses. I think that's what you're supposed
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: to do.
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha
[Aaron]: Like
[Ian Landsman]: ha.
[Aaron]: if you're down, you just keep playing and eventually it turns around.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I mean, this is sort of the level, it was like a five, 10 for those
[Ian Landsman]: of you who play poker. So $300 loss is actually like almost kind of even,
[Ian Landsman]: which is fine.
[Aaron]: Yeah, 510, that feels like a lot.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: Feels like
[Ian Landsman]: that's
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: a
[Aaron]: big
[Ian Landsman]: bigger
[Aaron]: game.
[Ian Landsman]: game than I normally play, yeah. So,
[Aaron]: Jeez.
[Ian Landsman]: but you know, when I have these opportunities to play bigger games, I like
[Ian Landsman]: to take it because like where I play locally never has that. So,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: that was good. But we went to Topgolf. That's the thing we did that
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: night.
[Aaron]: nice.
[Ian Landsman]: We went to Topgolf, which that was another first. So we did the Waffle House,
[Ian Landsman]: first time at Waffle House, first
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: time at Topgolf. And that was a lot of fun. Food was better than I expected.
[Ian Landsman]: And whatever, just get out there and smack the golf ball around a bit.
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: So that was cool.
[Aaron]: it's fun. It's fun that they bring the food and drink out to you. And
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, just gonna hang
[Aaron]: it's
[Ian Landsman]: out.
[Aaron]: like, you know, it's bar food, but it's so fun. I don't even
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: golf, but it's a lot
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: of fun.
[Ian Landsman]: I don't love golf either. My middle kid is kind of in this. I don't know.
[Ian Landsman]: He's picked up golf in the last month and he's kind of super in the zone on
[Ian Landsman]: it. So
[Aaron]: That's fun.
[Ian Landsman]: he was all jazzed and, um, yeah, it was good. That was good. So, but good to
[Ian Landsman]: be back. I have like
[Aaron]: Good.
[Ian Landsman]: 8 million things to do.
[Aaron]: Yeah, that's what I was gonna
[Ian Landsman]: Um,
[Aaron]: ask. How's the return
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: to
[Ian Landsman]: So.
[Aaron]: the office life for you?
[Ian Landsman]: Man, it's been a crazy morning
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: already. This is the first day back. It's absolutely bananas. We're doing
[Ian Landsman]: this like, for HelpSpot, we're rolling out this new store. So HelpSpot has,
[Ian Landsman]: it's not like a regular SaaS app or in the app you do things. It's got this
[Ian Landsman]: whole store set up that's separate from the app. Because we, partially because
[Ian Landsman]: it's ancient and so that's
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: like how you did things in the old days when you had on-premise apps, but
[Ian Landsman]: also. We do a lot of other stuff that isn't even that easy to do with Stripe,
[Ian Landsman]: even still like invoicing,
[Aaron]: Mmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I know they do invoicing, but we handle all kinds of different types of payment
[Ian Landsman]: and you can send us a
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: check and whatever, blah, blah. So we have our own thing for that. And so that's
[Ian Landsman]: a new version that's rolling out today. And in the middle
[Aaron]: today.
[Ian Landsman]: of that. Yeah. So they're working on that. The guys are cranking away on that.
[Ian Landsman]: And then, uh, I come back to like other, other decisions I made before I
[Ian Landsman]: left that I don't love, so I'm fixing those decisions and then,
[Aaron]: Ah,
[Ian Landsman]: um,
[Aaron]: yes.
[Ian Landsman]: And then, uh, and then in the middle of all that, I got one of these emails
[Ian Landsman]: where like, so I've had IanLansman.com for whatever, 20 something years, right?
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: And one of these Reuters images, you know, copyright royalty
[Aaron]: Mm.
[Ian Landsman]: services, uh, has hunted me down and found an image I used in 2005.
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: on a blog post and they want, you know, $2,000. So
[Aaron]: What?
[Ian Landsman]: now I gotta go through all that headache. So I like took
[Aaron]: What?
[Ian Landsman]: that down. But of course, like my site is built on like an ancient version
[Ian Landsman]: of Jigsaw. So even just taking down
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: the page
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: was like,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I had to like update the whole thing and like whatever. So I got that done,
[Ian Landsman]: got
[Aaron]: Wait,
[Ian Landsman]: the page
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: taken down.
[Aaron]: somebody tracked you down for... What is it? I guess a copyright violation?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, like I embedded a Reuters image in a blog post in 2005. Um, probably
[Ian Landsman]: just, yeah, not obviously intentionally, uh, from somewhere else
[Aaron]: Yeah, it
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: was 2005,
[Ian Landsman]: presumably.
[Aaron]: it was run and gun, baby.
[Ian Landsman]: I know. So they have these services. You know, this is just the way they're making
[Ian Landsman]: who knows. I'm sure they make millions of dollars a quarter on juicing their
[Ian Landsman]: numbers by hunting down random blog posts and sending threatening letters.
[Ian Landsman]: So.
[Aaron]: So are you free and clear now? Are you just gonna ignore it?
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, it just happened this morning. I took it down. You are absolutely
[Ian Landsman]: not free and clear when
[Aaron]: This
[Ian Landsman]: you take
[Aaron]: is
[Ian Landsman]: it
[Aaron]: legal
[Ian Landsman]: down.
[Aaron]: advice, so yeah, if you're paying attention, we're both attorneys for sure.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I think, you know, whatever. It's one of these games, right? Where
[Ian Landsman]: like, I'm always gonna push back on them. Hopefully they cut it down a
[Ian Landsman]: little bit. Do I think? I could win in court. Like, I mean, I don't know, probably
[Ian Landsman]: not, to be honest with you, because like,
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I use this image, it was there.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Um, you know, obviously when it's a thousand dollars or let's say we get
[Ian Landsman]: down to like a thousand dollars, like,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: can I hire a lawyer and fight them for a thousand dollars? Do I want to like
[Ian Landsman]: go through? Right. So it's this whole thing. The main thing I was worried about
[Ian Landsman]: is, is it even real? So
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: I went through all that. It does seem to be real. So I don't know. It's
[Ian Landsman]: like this game where
[Aaron]: She
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: is.
[Ian Landsman]: not enough money to fight it. So
[Aaron]: Right?
[Ian Landsman]: you're just kinda stuck paying the ransom for this ridiculous blog post that
[Ian Landsman]: nobody's ever seen.
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: And even when it was new in 2005, 50 people saw it. Whatever. So I went
[Ian Landsman]: through every other image that's up there in my
[Aaron]: Oh gosh.
[Ian Landsman]: ancient history of blogs, uh, and made sure there was nothing else to lead
[Ian Landsman]: a few things that whatever I knew they weren't my images. Uh, I don't think
[Ian Landsman]: they didn't seem good enough to be Reuters images,
[Aaron]: I'm sorry.
[Ian Landsman]: but whatever they were just whatever delete them. So anyway, so that's
[Aaron]: Wow,
[Ian Landsman]: been my
[Aaron]: welcome
[Ian Landsman]: crazy
[Aaron]: home,
[Ian Landsman]: return
[Aaron]: that sucks.
[Ian Landsman]: to work. Exactly. So
[Aaron]: Now
[Ian Landsman]: how's
[Aaron]: I'm thinking
[Ian Landsman]: things with you?
[Aaron]: we should start a business that exploits those images and
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha.
[Aaron]: emails and demands payment. That sounds pretty awesome.
[Ian Landsman]: This is exactly what my wife said. She's like, we needed one of these gigs.
[Ian Landsman]: I'm like,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: yeah. Or what about we take the white hat version of that, a service that
[Ian Landsman]: checks your websites and says, hey,
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: some of these images look a little iffy. You might want to clean this up
[Ian Landsman]: before these bad guys get ahold
[Aaron]: before
[Ian Landsman]: of you.
[Aaron]: we sell
[Ian Landsman]: So,
[Aaron]: the lead to the bad guys who are
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: gonna sue you.
[Ian Landsman]: Right, exactly.
[Aaron]: I think that's like a protection racket. So
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: I love
[Aaron]: probably
[Ian Landsman]: a good gangster,
[Aaron]: no good there. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: gangster thing. You know, I'm big
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: on the gangsters.
[Aaron]: yeah. Things are good over here. We tried to do potty training for the kids over
[Aaron]: the weekend. Just total epic disaster. Just
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.
[Aaron]: not even close to working.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Um, so we didn't, uh, let's see, we didn't fail. We're just going to try again
[Aaron]: later. We, we put,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: we put a hold on it and said, okay, this isn't, this isn't working. They are a
[Aaron]: little young to be fair. And
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: so we're just going to try again later. But boy, that was the worst. That was not great.
[Aaron]: That was super not great.
[Ian Landsman]: Do they have an interest yet or they're not really interested?
[Aaron]: Um, they're not really interested.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: I'll be honest.
[Ian Landsman]: I think
[Aaron]: They're
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: just
[Ian Landsman]: hard
[Aaron]: interested
[Ian Landsman]: until
[Aaron]: in
[Ian Landsman]: they're
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: interested.
[Aaron]: peeing on the floor.
[Ian Landsman]: Right,
[Aaron]: And it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: okay,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: this is gross. Yeah, not a huge fan of that. I'll be honest.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, until they get the interest, until they're showing interest in like the
[Ian Landsman]: toilet and stuff, I feel
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: like it's kind of, it's gonna be rough there.
[Aaron]: Yeah, so back to diapers and everybody's happy. Kids are at school today and so
[Ian Landsman]: Woohoo!
[Aaron]: my wife is feeling very light and free. So
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: always good.
[Aaron]: much, much better. Yeah, and then yesterday was Labor Day and I did a little, I had a little
[Aaron]: fun me time and just redesigned my site a little bit. Actually, that's totally
[Aaron]: not fair. Hugo, the designer at Tupel. redesigned my personal site and then Jason
[Ian Landsman]: Nice.
[Aaron]: Beggs, a good guy Jason, built
[Ian Landsman]: Go.
[Aaron]: out a lot of it. And then you know when you get a design done and then you start
[Aaron]: to put the real content in and you're like, Oh man, I didn't tell the designer about
[Aaron]: this part
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: and they couldn't have known and so I'm gonna, I am going to tweak it which usually
[Aaron]: means like destroy the design.
[Ian Landsman]: Sir.
[Aaron]: But that's what I've spent a few hours doing was like playing around with how am I
[Aaron]: gonna fit this content into this design and It was fun, you know, tailwind, still pretty
[Aaron]: great, still
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: love
[Ian Landsman]: awesome.
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: It's the goat.
[Aaron]: I used some of those wild like descendant selectors, very,
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: very cool, lot of fun. So
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: yeah, a good distraction after a weekend filled with very few wins, I will say.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, those potty training days, those are rough. Those are just brutal. It's
[Ian Landsman]: just brutal. Especially I can't imagine two at once. Forget even just one is
[Ian Landsman]: a disaster. Two is
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: it scales linearly, I think.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: It was a double
[Ian Landsman]: Linear
[Aaron]: disaster,
[Ian Landsman]: is good.
[Aaron]: yeah, for
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: sure.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. You might have to do one at a time just because they're twins doesn't
[Ian Landsman]: mean you have to do them both at the same
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: time too. So you could
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: whichever one takes an interest that might help get the other one interested
[Ian Landsman]: once the one's doing it. You know, then
[Aaron]: Yeah, that's
[Ian Landsman]: kind
[Aaron]: true.
[Ian Landsman]: of kind of go
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: route
[Aaron]: good point.
[Ian Landsman]: with it. Yeah. Man, how's the I've seen some people talking about screencasting.com
[Ian Landsman]: videos
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: as if they've seen them But then
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: I checked and it wasn't launched. So I don't know if you have some people like
[Aaron]: I got
[Ian Landsman]: in
[Aaron]: some
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: people
[Ian Landsman]: testing
[Aaron]: on the mailing
[Ian Landsman]: it out
[Aaron]: list, man. So
[Ian Landsman]: Okay
[Aaron]: I'm trying to do the whole like, hey, sign up for the mailing list, I'll send you
[Aaron]: stuff. Sign
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: up for the mailing list, I'll send you stuff. And it's working.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: And so I've sent out a preview of maybe like three or four of the lessons. And then
[Aaron]: I've started to do, I started to solicit videos from other people. Be like, send me
[Aaron]: your video, I'll do a video review of your video.
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: And I've sent out a few of those like, I actually have sent out one of those teardowns
[Aaron]: and I have another one going out to the list today. And so it's kind of like, you
[Aaron]: know, the incentive to sign up for the list is you'll get some content early and
[Aaron]: then
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: hopefully when launch time comes, the list will be, you know, bigger enough to make
[Aaron]: a difference. So yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: What are you looking at for launch? When, when are you thinking that's
[Ian Landsman]: going
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: to
[Aaron]: think,
[Ian Landsman]: happen?
[Aaron]: yeah, I think so today we're recording is September 5th. I think it's going to be
[Aaron]: September, what is it? 20th maybe? Whatever the Wednesday of that week
[Ian Landsman]: Okay,
[Aaron]: is. I think it's
[Ian Landsman]: oh,
[Aaron]: like two and
[Ian Landsman]: pretty
[Aaron]: a half
[Ian Landsman]: close.
[Aaron]: weeks away. Yeah, very
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: close. Um, so a lot of good, a lot of good stuff happening there. I've also started
[Aaron]: to reach out to people to do, um, like a screencaster spotlights. And
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: so we got one in already, uh, Mateus who's a, you know, friend of Laravel.
[Ian Landsman]: Yep.
[Aaron]: I reached out to him and I was like, hey man, I would love for you to do a video
[Aaron]: on like, hey, I'm Matthias, this is what I do, here's kind of my setup, this is
[Aaron]: my camera, my microphone, here's what I like, here's what I don't like. So do like
[Aaron]: a short, you know, three to five minute video on that
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: and then on the page have it listed below of like, here's all the gear that Matthias
[Aaron]: uses, here are the links where you can find
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: Matthias' stuff. That way, you know, it's a fun, like it's a fun... way for people
[Aaron]: to see what other people are doing.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: If they start to look around at different cameras and microphones, they can look at some
[Aaron]: of these other screencasters and be like, oh, this guy uses the camera I was thinking
[Aaron]: about using, let me watch his video or something like that. And I think it'll be
[Aaron]: good like social, drive social behavior, right? Because then
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Ahem.
[Aaron]: every screencaster that we spotlight is gonna wanna send people over there and be
[Aaron]: like, hey. look at this thing I have on Screencasting.com that has like a backlink
[Aaron]: to my, you know, to my screencasting stuff. And so trying to round out some of the
[Aaron]: content there to make the site a little bit heavier for SEO and social stuff.
[Ian Landsman]: And everybody loves gear posts. Like gear posts,
[Aaron]: Loves
[Ian Landsman]: just
[Aaron]: it, yes.
[Ian Landsman]: classic win. Like you're just gonna have people wandering through there just
[Ian Landsman]: cause why not? I just love seeing what gear people are using and what they're
[Ian Landsman]: doing with it and everything. So that's a definite win there. Yeah, and the
[Ian Landsman]: things to work together, definitely useful to just like, yeah, which camera maybe
[Ian Landsman]: I already have a piece of something. Like maybe
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I can see like, well, what are people pairing with this and how's that going
[Ian Landsman]: and everything. So yeah, I liked that a lot, especially with like, if they have
[Ian Landsman]: something a little bit to write up about. how they like it or just like, is
[Ian Landsman]: there a trick? Like, oh, you need to do this or the microphone
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: setup should be that, especially with the mic stuff tends to be a lot of
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: things like that. Or specific cameras having like whatever the good settings
[Ian Landsman]: for streaming or even video setup sometimes, since they're usually kind
[Ian Landsman]: of more photography focused by default in their default settings. Sometimes
[Ian Landsman]: you have a few tweaks there you need to do to get it set up for the video.
[Ian Landsman]: So. I like that.
[Aaron]: Yep, yep, and I think we'll end up with a page that's like screencasting.com slash
[Aaron]: cameras. And it'll
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: be a whole listing of like the different camera options and then in each section for
[Aaron]: like the Canon M50, which is what I'm running. Then
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: we can have links out to all the profiles of people that use the Canon M50. And then
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: we can have like a full super heavy in terms of content page for screencasting
[Aaron]: cameras. And I think... Given the domain and the fact that we can put a ton of content
[Aaron]: on there, I think we'll rank pretty highly for screencasting cameras.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, especially the camera, I think, or even the mics too. I mean, I think
[Ian Landsman]: if you had a page for each of the big camera systems and mic systems. And
[Ian Landsman]: then even just whether it's you or something, you know, pay somebody to
[Ian Landsman]: go through and do the work of like, either building these or even just finding
[Ian Landsman]: the good videos about on YouTube, about how to set them up. Because like
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: when I was setting up for this new setup I have here, it's like, it took me
[Ian Landsman]: like four YouTube videos and like
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: three hours for this particular camera, which like Sony A7C. And
[Aaron]: Mm.
[Ian Landsman]: so like this, and this is actually a really good camera potentially for streaming,
[Ian Landsman]: like. It's a video oriented camera to some degree anyway, but it's like
[Ian Landsman]: even that didn't have like here is how you would set this camera up for streaming
[Ian Landsman]: and the things you
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: should do. And like, so I think just having that for, you know, because basically
[Ian Landsman]: if you do the Sony's and the cannons, you don't have to do every
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: single one even. But the big ones, a lot of them are same across anyway,
[Ian Landsman]: it's like, you know, the menuing
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: system and everything's the same across multiple cameras in the series.
[Ian Landsman]: So I think that'd be super useful. And you get a lot of links for that because
[Ian Landsman]: it's actually pretty hard to find that. there
[Aaron]: Pretty
[Ian Landsman]: tends to
[Aaron]: hard
[Ian Landsman]: be you're
[Aaron]: to find. So
[Ian Landsman]: kind of piecing
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: it.
[Aaron]: just went through this. So like what part was hard for you to find? Was it concise
[Aaron]: or comprehensive or what was
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: the part
[Ian Landsman]: because
[Aaron]: that was missing?
[Ian Landsman]: you end up take there's there was like nobody as I found anyway, at least
[Ian Landsman]: for this particular camera that really went through and like how to set it
[Ian Landsman]: up, especially for the streaming, which
[Aaron]: Got
[Ian Landsman]: might be a little
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: different than what you're doing. But even for the video, there was just a lot
[Ian Landsman]: of like, here's some of the settings. But then I knew other stuff. I mean,
[Ian Landsman]: I know a little bit about it, which helped if I
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: started from less knowledge. I think it would have been even worse. But.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, just, and just even things like how do you run the power to it? Like,
[Ian Landsman]: can you, should
[Aaron]: Hmm
[Ian Landsman]: you do HDMI out or a lot of the cameras have USB-C, which can pipe over
[Ian Landsman]: it, but there's actually a difference. and HDMI is probably better, but not necessarily
[Ian Landsman]: always. And so there's
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: kind of things like that in terms of the setup, physical setup of how you're
[Ian Landsman]: gonna power it and how you're gonna get
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: the
[Aaron]: interesting.
[Ian Landsman]: feed out.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: And then also then the Sony system, all these camera systems, the menu
[Ian Landsman]: is a disaster. So, you know, how do you find all the little spots where
[Ian Landsman]: you need to set it up for, whether it's changes for the continuous power or changes
[Ian Landsman]: for like what setting that should be on for video and all
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: great
[Ian Landsman]: stuff.
[Aaron]: idea.
[Ian Landsman]: So just to get that initial setup so you have something reasonable.
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: And you're not, you know, some of them have overheating issues. Is there
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: certain things you have to do? Maybe you shouldn't run it at 1080P or whatever,
[Ian Landsman]: like whatever, all the different things to be aware of for the particular camera.
[Ian Landsman]: So you, you know, your first run experiences, aren't you get 20 minutes
[Ian Landsman]: in and it's shutting down and,
[Aaron]: Right, in
[Ian Landsman]: or
[Aaron]: the middle
[Ian Landsman]: you're
[Aaron]: of
[Ian Landsman]: not
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: getting the video
[Aaron]: recording session,
[Ian Landsman]: or whatever.
[Aaron]: which is super
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: frustrating.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: Ooh,
[Ian Landsman]: So
[Aaron]: this is
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: could
[Aaron]: good
[Ian Landsman]: be cool.
[Aaron]: idea. This is a really good idea. I think, so one of the things I'm thinking for
[Aaron]: like, continually filling the top of the funnel, because I want this
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: course to last forever, you know,
[Ian Landsman]: Right, yeah,
[Aaron]: as
[Ian Landsman]: why not?
[Aaron]: forever as possible.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I'm thinking I'll do a separate YouTube channel that is just screencasting
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm
[Aaron]: focused.
[Ian Landsman]: that makes sense
[Aaron]: And... This could be a really good couple of videos where I synthesize all of
[Aaron]: the information about, because people are trying to teach you how to use the camera
[Aaron]: for everything,
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: and I could synthesize all of that into, here's how you use it just for a webcam
[Aaron]: or a screencast
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: basically.
[Ian Landsman]: Yup.
[Aaron]: That is really interesting, I like that idea. The question is, am I gonna have
[Aaron]: to buy a bunch of cameras to do it honestly, because I don't wanna do that.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, I
[Aaron]: Hmm
[Ian Landsman]: mean, there's a bunch of services for renting cameras. So for like 20
[Aaron]: Duh.
[Ian Landsman]: bucks, 30 bucks or whatever, you can just like rent the camera and the lens
[Ian Landsman]: for two days, do the video, send it
[Aaron]: Of
[Ian Landsman]: back.
[Aaron]: course,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: of course
[Ian Landsman]: I would just,
[Aaron]: Ian,
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: this
[Ian Landsman]: you
[Aaron]: is
[Ian Landsman]: go.
[Aaron]: why we do this.
[Ian Landsman]: There
[Aaron]: We do
[Ian Landsman]: you
[Aaron]: this
[Ian Landsman]: go.
[Aaron]: podcast for my benefit. This is amazing. Okay, yeah, that's obvious. Yep, what is it
[Aaron]: called? There's one that's like
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a big
[Aaron]: Glass
[Ian Landsman]: one.
[Aaron]: Rent or I'm thinking of Rent the Runway, which is different.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I'll look it up. That's fine.
[Ian Landsman]: It
[Aaron]: Great
[Ian Landsman]: should be
[Aaron]: idea,
[Ian Landsman]: easy to find. Yeah.
[Aaron]: okay.
[Ian Landsman]: I can't remember the names, but I know a ton of people use them. Everybody
[Ian Landsman]: seems to have pretty good results
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: with it. So I think that you're getting like pretty, you know,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: good, good gear and good shape. And it'll be fine for your purposes of getting
[Ian Landsman]: set
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: up
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: and
[Aaron]: don't
[Ian Landsman]: stream
[Aaron]: even want
[Ian Landsman]: it.
[Aaron]: to keep the gear, so it's
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: perfect. So, okay.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. And you only need one lens, probably, or whatever. So.
[Aaron]: Yeah. Okay, cool.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: That'll
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: be
[Ian Landsman]: you
[Aaron]: fun.
[Ian Landsman]: go. There's another project for the list.
[Aaron]: Yeah, seriously. I count this as a sub project, so mentally this doesn't
[Ian Landsman]: Doesn't
[Aaron]: take
[Ian Landsman]: weigh you
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: down,
[Aaron]: slot. Yeah, exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: right? Ha ha ha.
[Aaron]: I don't feel like, oh man, I got a million. No, I only have like four things to
[Aaron]: juggle, of which subtask A is record a million videos. So.
[Ian Landsman]: Right? I have a hard time with that. I get down that path. This is part of
[Ian Landsman]: the stuff I've been eliminating from
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: decisions I made pre-vacation,
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: is it's just like I get too much stuff going and I'm not as good at that.
[Ian Landsman]: I've never been that good at it. If I get too many balls, then I just start
[Ian Landsman]: to get like, it just weighs on me. And then I don't do even the things
[Ian Landsman]: I need to be doing. It's just like, oh, it's too much stress and pressure.
[Ian Landsman]: So then I gotta go back through and be like, no, don't actually need to do
[Ian Landsman]: those things right now. Like. It'll
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: be fine. We can wait a few months or six months, whatever. Put it on like a separate
[Ian Landsman]: notion page for like kind of backlog of ideas. Just
[Aaron]: Parking
[Ian Landsman]: send
[Aaron]: lot,
[Ian Landsman]: it over
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: there. So it's not like in my day to day vision. And then, uh, yeah,
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: got it.
[Aaron]: are
[Ian Landsman]: Got to do
[Aaron]: super
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: not alone. I feel the same way. I feel like I have like a natural kind of ebb and
[Aaron]: flow cycle almost of like expand, let's do everything. And then I
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: get to like the maximum expansion and I'm like, oh,
[Ian Landsman]: I'm sorry.
[Aaron]: this is
[Ian Landsman]: Ha
[Aaron]: too
[Ian Landsman]: ha
[Aaron]: much.
[Ian Landsman]: ha.
[Aaron]: And then I contract down and focus on the few things that I think are most important
[Aaron]: maybe or most pressing. And
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: then that kind of just kind of ebbs and flows over time. And I don't know if that's
[Aaron]: bad. Like I don't know if that's bad.
[Ian Landsman]: I don't know.
[Aaron]: I maybe wish I didn't get to the point where it was like, ah, this is way too
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: much,
[Ian Landsman]: overwhelming.
[Aaron]: I'm gonna die, yeah. Which is
[Ian Landsman]: I do think
[Aaron]: where I am now, so.
[Ian Landsman]: there is this entrepreneurial, I think a lot of entrepreneurs have that. issue
[Ian Landsman]: and it's like you get that little bit of space like you actually get some space
[Ian Landsman]: and you're like I must
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: fill this space like I must there's more things to do let's pile stuff
[Ian Landsman]: into the gap and then all of a sudden you look around a week later you're
[Ian Landsman]: like oh I actually have tons of stuff to do and then the thing you know
[Ian Landsman]: you have no capacity for like when someone comes out of the blue and wants
[Ian Landsman]: to charge you two thousand dollars for a photo
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: you used 20 years ago or like all these you know random stuff that comes
[Ian Landsman]: up when you're running
[Ian Landsman]: even just your day job needs you to work longer or whatever, like who knows,
[Ian Landsman]: like just having the extra capacity to take on those unknown things. Yeah, I hit
[Ian Landsman]: that all the time where I'm like running too close to the capacity and
[Ian Landsman]: then like something
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: happens and I'm like, oh no, I got to deal with that and rework
[Aaron]: And then you start
[Ian Landsman]: things.
[Aaron]: actively
[Ian Landsman]: So,
[Aaron]: trying to like shed projects. You're like,
[Ian Landsman]: right,
[Aaron]: ah, I can't do that.
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: I mean, Hugo designed my website, I think back in like September or October of
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: last year, and it's now September
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: of this year. And it was just one of those things where at the time, I was like,
[Aaron]: yeah, hell yeah, let's freaking, let's do a website, that seems awesome. And then
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: he designed it and I was like, oh gosh, I don't
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: have time
[Ian Landsman]: Now I have
[Aaron]: to
[Ian Landsman]: to
[Aaron]: do
[Ian Landsman]: build
[Aaron]: this.
[Ian Landsman]: this.
[Aaron]: I can't do this anymore. That's one thing where I think I do get in trouble sometimes
[Aaron]: is I'll have like, I'll start the project and have
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: like other people, you know, pay them, of course, but have other people
[Ian Landsman]: Right. Yup.
[Aaron]: do parts of it. And then I'm like, Oh no, now it's back to me. And so,
[Ian Landsman]: Yup.
[Aaron]: you know, hopefully, hopefully Hugo's happy one to see his design out there. And
[Aaron]: two, of course I did pay him for it. But now I'm finally like, all right, here we
[Aaron]: go. This is now it's come back around to I have time to do this.
[Ian Landsman]: The number of people and the amount of money I've paid for people to not
[Ian Landsman]: do the things I asked them to do is
[Aaron]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
[Ian Landsman]: completely insane. Um, yes, I know I paid you. I'm- I'm fine with you not
[Ian Landsman]: doing it, just forget it. Like just the, what you were gonna do and then place
[Ian Landsman]: on me. Like I'm fine just paying you to not just take that
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: money, enjoy it. I don't even want you to produce it. And I
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: just want to not worry about it. So yeah, I do have had that happen numerous
[Ian Landsman]: times. So.
[Aaron]: Yeah, and it's kinda like, if they do produce the thing, it's like, yes, I'm thrilled
[Aaron]: to death with the work you've done. It's amazing, I
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: love it. I just, I'm gonna sit on it for a little
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: while. Sorry about that. Ha, ha, ha.
[Ian Landsman]: So
[Aaron]: But.
[Ian Landsman]: we should get the full update. What's up with the hello query? I don't think
[Ian Landsman]: we've even talked about that on
[Aaron]: We
[Ian Landsman]: this
[Aaron]: have
[Ian Landsman]: pod
[Aaron]: not talked
[Ian Landsman]: much,
[Aaron]: about
[Ian Landsman]: so.
[Aaron]: that in a while. So we've been doing a push with, do you know Boris Lepkin in the
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm,
[Aaron]: Laravel community? He's the guy who wrote
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: Advanced
[Ian Landsman]: don't think so.
[Aaron]: Inertia.
[Ian Landsman]: Okay, yes, I know that.
[Aaron]: So he's the inertia type script.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: He's a wizard. Like I thought for a long time that I was a really good developer
[Aaron]: and I think I am. I'm
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: not as good as Boris. Like
[Ian Landsman]: No, right?
[Aaron]: Boris is a gosh dang machine.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: And it also happens that he's like really, really good at the front end. Um,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: and I'm, I'm okay at front end, but in terms of like, all right, let's wire up
[Aaron]: inertia and view all together with typed stuff on the backend, like I don't, I
[Aaron]: don't hold a candle to Boris.
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: So anyway, we've hired Boris to help us build out some of that stuff. Um,
[Ian Landsman]: Awesome
[Aaron]: because like I said, I got to this point where I was like, Oh, this is too much.
[Aaron]: Um,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: And we were just moving too slowly because I just, I was also having a hard time.
[Aaron]: Like the project's been going on for a thousand years,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: um, and losing some of that motivation for that side. And so
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm
[Aaron]: bringing Boris on to like, just plow through some tasks has been really awesome.
[Aaron]: So that's been going well. We're reaching the point where it's like, all right, let's,
[Aaron]: let's onboard some customers here.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh
[Aaron]: And
[Ian Landsman]: wow.
[Aaron]: so. Yeah, Colleen and I are talking about like, okay, we're about to approach the
[Aaron]: starting line of this project. Like, even
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: though it feels like this should be the finish line, we're approaching the starting
[Aaron]: line. Let's talk about like what that's going to look like going forward.
[Ian Landsman]: Yo.
[Aaron]: And so there's still some, you know, there's still some decisions and stuff to be
[Aaron]: made there. But just having someone else that's really, really talented help me
[Aaron]: on the development side has been like a huge boost in terms of like, like emotional
[Aaron]: fortitude to
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: have somebody else picking up some of that slack. So that's been great. So thanks,
[Aaron]: Boris. Thanks.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Thanks for being thanks for being a 10x developer. That's amazing.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I think there's getting to shipping is so important. And like, that's something
[Ian Landsman]: I haven't always factored enough in. And actually with a huge new project that
[Ian Landsman]: we'll talk about on here eventually. Um, I've been reworking a lot of that so that
[Ian Landsman]: to try to get to that shipping part faster,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: um, and, uh, Yeah. So I think, uh, I think that's super important. Like six,
[Ian Landsman]: when you're just on that march of like the
[Aaron]: Brutal.
[Ian Landsman]: never ending marches, it is very difficult to stay motivated and even
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: to remember what you were trying to do at
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: times and
[Aaron]: yep,
[Ian Landsman]: things like that.
[Aaron]: yep.
[Ian Landsman]: And so I think having that, um, yeah, whether it's help or just reorganizing,
[Ian Landsman]: I think there's actually a Jason Cohen has a really, uh, interesting blog post
[Ian Landsman]: about this where. kind of indirectly about this, but he was more talking about like
[Ian Landsman]: MVPs and how he doesn't like MVPs.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: But more about the idea than doing something where it's just smaller but
[Ian Landsman]: complete so that
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: like even if you then don't add on to whatever or even if it takes longer
[Ian Landsman]: than to get to the full vision, it's not that you're shipping this kind of
[Ian Landsman]: junky doesn't even work for the customer tool. It's just that you're shipping
[Ian Landsman]: something that is small but that there is a use set and people could love
[Ian Landsman]: that small feature set and then you can either build on
[Aaron]: iterate
[Ian Landsman]: it or
[Aaron]: off
[Ian Landsman]: not
[Aaron]: of
[Ian Landsman]: build
[Aaron]: that,
[Ian Landsman]: on
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: it, but that different take on it, which I kind of like that idea of it
[Ian Landsman]: as well.
[Aaron]: Yeah, yeah, and I feel like there is, there is like a big emotional win from having
[Aaron]: that in people's hands. So that you can start to get that like, that, you know,
[Aaron]: that dopamine from people actually using the thing instead
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: of just sitting quietly alone working on
[Ian Landsman]: some
[Aaron]: it all the time.
[Ian Landsman]: money changing hands and all that
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: stuff.
[Aaron]: exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: always.
[Aaron]: when you mentioned it in passing, you had a big secret project we're going to talk
[Aaron]: about at some point.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, we'll talk about the big secret project
[Aaron]: Alright,
[Ian Landsman]: at some point.
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: love it. Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: we're not there
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: yet.
[Aaron]: y'all stay
[Ian Landsman]: We're not
[Aaron]: tuned,
[Ian Landsman]: there yet.
[Aaron]: come back. Come back
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: next week and we'll probably not talk about it then, but keep coming
[Ian Landsman]: We're
[Aaron]: back
[Ian Landsman]: not being
[Aaron]: and
[Ian Landsman]: next
[Aaron]: maybe
[Ian Landsman]: week, but
[Aaron]: eventually we will
[Ian Landsman]: eventually,
[Aaron]: talk about it.
[Ian Landsman]: eventually we'll get to it. We're definitely gonna talk about it, but not
[Ian Landsman]: yet.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: We have lots of other stuff to talk about though.
[Aaron]: Let's
[Ian Landsman]: So
[Aaron]: do
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: no worries. What else we got here? So... All right, so what about, well,
[Ian Landsman]: all right, we can talk about this. So I posted about year of Livewire. What
[Ian Landsman]: do you think
[Aaron]: You
[Ian Landsman]: about
[Aaron]: did.
[Ian Landsman]: that? I think 2024 is the year of Livewire, is the year of filament, is the
[Ian Landsman]: year of the Livewire ecosystem. To
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: me, this
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: is gonna be a big Livewire
[Aaron]: before
[Ian Landsman]: year.
[Aaron]: I tell
[Ian Landsman]: All
[Aaron]: you any thoughts, tell me
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: what you were doing and what kind of prompted the Year of Livewire tweet.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, I've just been super deep in LiveWire again. Um, so sort of a long story,
[Ian Landsman]: but the short version is I plan to do a bunch of stuff with LiveWire three
[Ian Landsman]: last year when it was, you
[Aaron]: Okay. Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: know, sort of supposed to come out and actually, you know, did some sponsoring
[Ian Landsman]: to help do some of that. Whatever. It just took longer as these software projects
[Ian Landsman]: do whatever. So it's fun. So that's this is where I kind of then got over
[Ian Landsman]: towards into the React and all that, which we've touched on a
[Aaron]: Mmm.
[Ian Landsman]: little bit here. I was like, well, I never looked at inertia. Never looked
[Ian Landsman]: at React. Let me go off in that direction for a bit. So I went over there,
[Ian Landsman]: learned React, played with inertia and all that stuff. So then LiveWire 3 comes
[Ian Landsman]: out and. Filament comes out and there's a bunch of other, you know, projects
[Ian Landsman]: all along the ecosystem. The Spatty stuff's all being updated to LiveWire
[Ian Landsman]: 3. I know the Laravel Core stuff that uses LiveWire has been updated or will
[Ian Landsman]: be updated
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: soon. So I've been back in LiveWire 3 streets. I'm like, all right, let me get
[Ian Landsman]: in here since this was kind of my original plan. And we use LiveWire for
[Ian Landsman]: other stuff anyways. So Lara Jobs uses it and the store thing that's launching
[Ian Landsman]: today for Help Spot uses it and
[Aaron]: Nice.
[Ian Landsman]: whatever. So we use LiveWire a bunch of places, but. And I just love it.
[Ian Landsman]: I'm not even like super, super deep on it yet, but I've been loving all the
[Ian Landsman]: changes. I just think it's like so obviously like the foundation to then build
[Ian Landsman]: on for world domination. And
[Aaron]: Oh wow.
[Ian Landsman]: so yeah, I'm all about the world domination. And
[Aaron]: Yeah, me too.
[Ian Landsman]: I just think this is like, it's so integrated with Laravel in the way that
[Ian Landsman]: none of the other things can ever be, right? And so, yeah, it's just great.
[Ian Landsman]: And I think what the film in... guys are doing is great and how they've expanded
[Ian Landsman]: that to where you can build. It's not just like an admin panel anymore.
[Ian Landsman]: It's, you know, got bigger ambitions than that. And you can really use it to build
[Ian Landsman]: other sorts of apps and things. Um, and I mean, filament sort of a little bit
[Ian Landsman]: intense, uh, and, and
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: heavy
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: to get started
[Aaron]: talk
[Ian Landsman]: with,
[Aaron]: to me about
[Ian Landsman]: but.
[Aaron]: Filament. Cause I thought it was an admin panel, but now I'm seeing people like
[Aaron]: you say, it's like application builders. So like,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: what is the scope? What is the scope there?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I mean, the scope is kind of massive. So I mean, it's definitely where
[Ian Landsman]: you could use it now for, and maybe you always could to some degree, but
[Ian Landsman]: I think it's been fleshed out a bit more where it's not just like admin for
[Ian Landsman]: the, like the literal admins of the
[Aaron]: Uh huh.
[Ian Landsman]: system to manage a SaaS app, but you could definitely use it whether, it's
[Ian Landsman]: gonna be a little hard to explain, but they have this kind of a panel, which is
[Ian Landsman]: sort of like an admin dashboard, but you could use it for actually the UI of
[Ian Landsman]: your app now with what
[Aaron]: interesting.
[Ian Landsman]: they've done with it. or part of the UI, like maybe you have like, you know,
[Ian Landsman]: like a user area, but then there might be other areas that don't necessarily
[Ian Landsman]: use filament for like the front, let's say that maybe is
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: more custom or things like that. So you could mix and match. You could also
[Ian Landsman]: just use the individual components like the table builder. Like I just saw like
[Ian Landsman]: Spatty's using the table builder
[Aaron]: Yeah, I've
[Ian Landsman]: in
[Aaron]: seen the table builder.
[Ian Landsman]: the media library, I think. Yeah, and the form builder and things like
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: Uh huh.
[Ian Landsman]: So. And, you know, it's basically the missing component library of the Laravel
[Ian Landsman]: LiveWire kind of
[Aaron]: I see.
[Ian Landsman]: ecosystem, in terms of if you want the like fully integrated components.
[Ian Landsman]: Now, I still don't think they're all the way, and they're definitely not all
[Ian Landsman]: the way, to sort of the full-on polishness of like the React ecosystem.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: But I do think it's gotten a lot closer and is a lot better. And then you're
[Ian Landsman]: making different trade-offs. Maybe it's not quite as uber polished as that
[Ian Landsman]: in areas, but then on the flip side, it's super tied into Laravel and
[Aaron]: Right? Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: it understands Laravel. And you can just totally ignore a whole bunch of
[Ian Landsman]: annoying kind of API validation,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: all that stuff, networking communication type things because it all just magically works.
[Ian Landsman]: So... Yeah, so I don't know,
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: I think,
[Aaron]: are you using
[Ian Landsman]: hmm.
[Aaron]: filament for anything at this point?
[Ian Landsman]: So I'm not, well, we use actually one of the components like the table builder
[Ian Landsman]: in the new
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: store. But I am evaluating for a super big secret project, possibly using
[Ian Landsman]: it pretty heavily. So
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, so that's what I've been kind of digging into that stuff. But yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: I just think it's like all reaches place. I think it's all gonna get a lot better
[Ian Landsman]: too. Like they're coming out with like, like Filman's the lead designer,
[Ian Landsman]: I think he is at Filman is coming
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: out with like a theme package so that you can have some different styles
[Ian Landsman]: in there. If you want something like a little cleaner than the default, things
[Ian Landsman]: like that.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: And yeah, there's just a lot of activity on the LiveWire end and the Filman
[Ian Landsman]: end with people, you know, doing a lot of active dev work around it. So
[Aaron]: It does
[Ian Landsman]: I expect
[Aaron]: seem to
[Ian Landsman]: everything
[Aaron]: be
[Ian Landsman]: to
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: get a lot
[Aaron]: very
[Ian Landsman]: better.
[Aaron]: active project.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: It seems
[Ian Landsman]: yeah,
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: film
[Aaron]: there are
[Ian Landsman]: is
[Aaron]: a lot
[Ian Landsman]: very
[Aaron]: of
[Ian Landsman]: active.
[Aaron]: people working on it and there's a lot of motion on it and a lot of people are
[Aaron]: like contributing to it. Is there a paid component? How do these people make money?
[Ian Landsman]: Uh, filament, I don't believe has a directly paid component. No, um, you
[Ian Landsman]: can sponsor Dan
[Aaron]: Got
[Ian Landsman]: who
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: kind of runs it. Um, and
[Aaron]: Oh,
[Ian Landsman]: same
[Aaron]: and Dan
[Ian Landsman]: with lot.
[Aaron]: is working for a company, right?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I think he works for Kershbaum. Um,
[Aaron]: Yeah, and he
[Ian Landsman]: so
[Aaron]: works
[Ian Landsman]: I think he's like
[Aaron]: on
[Ian Landsman]: semi sponsored
[Aaron]: film. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: in that way. I don't
[Aaron]: okay.
[Ian Landsman]: know exactly the exact deal there, but I do think they do give him at least
[Ian Landsman]: some time to work on it is my impression. Um, And then, you know, Caleb has
[Ian Landsman]: the kind of Livewire, the Alpine components, I
[Aaron]: Right,
[Ian Landsman]: know he sells,
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: and he has a lot of GitHub sponsors, although
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: GitHub has kind of messed that up a little bit
[Aaron]: They have,
[Ian Landsman]: on the
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: sponsorship front. But and Livewire also has a paid support channel now, too, if
[Ian Landsman]: you want
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: to get
[Aaron]: right.
[Ian Landsman]: paid support for like if you have a big Livewire project and want to be
[Ian Landsman]: able to have kind of direct access to the core brain trust, then you can.
[Ian Landsman]: can pay
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: them
[Aaron]: right.
[Ian Landsman]: for that, which is a great program too. So yeah, I mean, all these things, I think,
[Ian Landsman]: it's like every open source project, it's like how do you
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: monetize it to kind
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: of survive and pay the bills so
[Aaron]: Tough,
[Ian Landsman]: you can build
[Aaron]: tough question.
[Ian Landsman]: the open source thing people want. But.
[Aaron]: Okay, so Livewire 3 plus ecosystem plus tight integration with Laravel. That's
[Aaron]: why you think 2024 is the year of Livewire.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I just think with this new foundation, so there's always been a little
[Ian Landsman]: bit of rough edges to LiveWire
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: when you get in there and build something more complicated where there can
[Ian Landsman]: be just more difficult error states or a lot of subtle things you have to
[Ian Landsman]: be aware of
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: to make that work. And so... I think that was always a little bit tricky.
[Ian Landsman]: Over for pages with lots of components, there'd be like a lot
[Aaron]: Right?
[Ian Landsman]: of network stuff going on and things like that. And a lot of that stuff is,
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, almost all of it really has been, you know, made a lot better fixed
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: if it was like kind of more bugs or more sensible defaults or optimized
[Ian Landsman]: in terms of like the networking. So like the foundation is super strong. And
[Ian Landsman]: I think... with filament on top, then you just have this nice way to actually
[Ian Landsman]: get started with,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: bam, I can like build out an idea really quickly, which I know has always
[Ian Landsman]: been also kind of one of Taylor's core tenants, so to speak,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: with Laravel is like, can you get to building something, you know, pretty
[Ian Landsman]: quickly, which why Laravel always does such a great job with, you know, the other
[Ian Landsman]: elements of like. Uh, you know, authentication and having all those jet stream
[Ian Landsman]: and all those things to make it really easy to just get all that boiler
[Ian Landsman]: plate stuff that is terrible to build kind of out of the way right at the
[Ian Landsman]: beginning and Laravel just can give you that. So, so yeah, I don't know. I
[Ian Landsman]: just think, uh, you know, you know, I now having just gone through all the
[Ian Landsman]: react stuff too, it's like, you know, even with inertia. It's still, you
[Ian Landsman]: know, it's still JavaScript, right?
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Like
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: ultimately,
[Aaron]: got him. Got him. Welcome
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: home,
[Ian Landsman]: still JavaScript.
[Aaron]: baby.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I'm
[Aaron]: You're
[Ian Landsman]: back
[Aaron]: back.
[Ian Landsman]: home.
[Aaron]: Woo.
[Ian Landsman]: So.
[Aaron]: It's still JavaScript.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's still JavaScript. And it's like, if you don't have to be in there
[Ian Landsman]: or if something can make it nice for you so that you're in there but you
[Ian Landsman]: don't have to really know too much about it except for when you really need
[Ian Landsman]: to. And then LiveWire does a great job with that. It's all integrated with
[Ian Landsman]: Alpine like fully now. So it used to be the sort of like they weren't actually
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: one in the same but now it's essentially like they're one in the same. And
[Ian Landsman]: so you can use Alpine, which I like a lot and they can cross communicate
[Ian Landsman]: really easily where you need to. for those times we do need to do something
[Ian Landsman]: JavaScripty that's literally only in the browser, then great, like you can
[Ian Landsman]: do those weirdo JavaScripty things
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and sync it up with LiveWire if you need to and have that all work magically.
[Ian Landsman]: So yeah,
[Aaron]: I buy it. I buy
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: it. I'm with
[Ian Landsman]: you
[Aaron]: you.
[Ian Landsman]: go.
[Aaron]: So I think I think Livewire 3 is like a step change, like a fundamental
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: improvement over Livewire 2. Just I was never a heavy Livewire user and I'm still
[Aaron]: not actually. But I have used Livewire 2 and I've used Livewire 3 and I do think all
[Aaron]: of the time and energy that Caleb put into Livewire 3 was worth it because
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: I think
[Ian Landsman]: totally
[Aaron]: I think
[Ian Landsman]: agree.
[Aaron]: a lot of a lot of the like I feel like a lot of the drive-by criticisms of LiveWire
[Aaron]: 2 was around performance and requests and that kind of stuff.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: And I feel like Caleb went to the nth degree trying to solve some of the batching
[Aaron]: and like you said, tight integration with Alpine. So you can do some stuff that
[Aaron]: is strictly front end, but is still fully integrated to LiveWire such that when
[Aaron]: you do send a request, like it all goes together.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: And so I think I think my point of view on LiveWire is, I actually don't mind
[Aaron]: writing JavaScript that much because I write view and not react. Little barb to
[Aaron]: react
[Ian Landsman]: I'm
[Aaron]: there.
[Ian Landsman]: not going to view
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: that for sure,
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: but we're not talking about that again.
[Aaron]: Yeah. But what I do love about LiveWire is just the network chasm has been crossed
[Aaron]: and you don't have to worry about, I think you mentioned like APIs and validation
[Aaron]: at some point. Like it's just all, it's just all there. Like the front
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: end and back end. is handled, like the communication between the two is handled
[Aaron]: for you. And that is just, it's just a delight to use to not think about like, all
[Aaron]: right, how am I going to serialize this and send it across the wire and validate
[Aaron]: it and send some response back and respond to it. Like Jason wired up my new website
[Aaron]: and there's like a listing of content and you can filter between like videos and
[Aaron]: articles and talks and that kind of thing. And he did it all in LiveWire
[Aaron]: Is that the single page one
[Ian Landsman]: Yep.
[Aaron]: or is Volt the single page one? Which one's the page router?
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. Well, the Volt is the single page live wire component
[Aaron]: Yes,
[Ian Landsman]: and then, yeah.
[Aaron]: Folio's the page routing. Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: so he did it all with volt style LiveWire.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: And so you just open up this content list.blade.php and like you
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: see a little bit of LiveWire at the top and then the view or the template at the
[Aaron]: bottom. It's like, oh,
[Ian Landsman]: there.
[Aaron]: I get this.
[Ian Landsman]: Right. Ha ha ha.
[Aaron]: This has like collapsed a level of mental complexity in my mind
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: and I really dig it. So I do think, I do think. ecosystem is developing. I think
[Aaron]: all the work that Filament is doing is great. I think also Filo, everything that
[Aaron]: Filo touches
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: in
[Ian Landsman]: I feel
[Aaron]: the Livewire
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: ecosystem is incredibly high quality and he's got, I don't know all of his projects,
[Aaron]: but he's got a lot of stuff going on over there. But I could see it. I could see
[Aaron]: 2024 being the year of Livewire and hopefully with like the... the PHP resurgence
[Aaron]: and me trying to convince people that PHP
[Ian Landsman]: Yes,
[Aaron]: is good.
[Ian Landsman]: get
[Aaron]: Hopefully
[Ian Landsman]: them over to team effort.
[Aaron]: we get some momentum going here.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, the other thing too, I think that's huge for LiveWire is this sort
[Ian Landsman]: of, that it's been fully brought into the fold under the Laravel domain. So
[Ian Landsman]: it's like livewire.laravel.com. So that's always the other thing is like, you
[Ian Landsman]: know, you can drop LiveWire in for sure and just like use it here and there,
[Ian Landsman]: but also it's. You know, I think ideally in some ways like you'd be, especially
[Ian Landsman]: in three, where there's like kind of the single page mode where it can
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: really
[Aaron]: which
[Ian Landsman]: be preloading things
[Aaron]: is super
[Ian Landsman]: and like,
[Aaron]: cool.
[Ian Landsman]: so you can just have it be everything basically. But that's a huge commitment. And
[Ian Landsman]: obviously everybody's always scared about like, well, this is like kind
[Ian Landsman]: of a thing. It's run by, you know, one
[Aaron]: You
[Ian Landsman]: or
[Aaron]: all right?
[Ian Landsman]: two people. Like, do I want to have my entire app built on this thing?
[Ian Landsman]: And so, you know, being in the official Laravel fold just has that extra level
[Ian Landsman]: of assurance that, you know what, like the Laravel in-crew is going to
[Ian Landsman]: take care of this project, like no matter what LiveWire is here to stay and
[Ian Landsman]: it's going to get better and it's going to be either even more. integrated
[Ian Landsman]: into Laravel core in the future in different ways. And so, and same with volt
[Ian Landsman]: being released by Laravel Inc. So you have that support there. So it's just
[Ian Landsman]: like everything's coming. Everybody's on board with LiveWire that this is how. This
[Ian Landsman]: is like the default way to me to write a Laravel app. It's like.
[Aaron]: Woo,
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: LiveWire.
[Aaron]: spicy.
[Ian Landsman]: And then like then there's, you know, obviously there's other reasons why
[Ian Landsman]: you might use
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: ReactorView or just Blade in a super simple scenario, whatever, but kind
[Ian Landsman]: of your main line, I'm building a real app that's significant in size. I feel
[Ian Landsman]: like LiveWire is the front end technology you're looking at for that on Laravel.
[Ian Landsman]: And that's what kind of where things are going in my mind. So anyway, so
[Ian Landsman]: I think all of that kind of comes together to be the year of LiveWire.
[Ian Landsman]: So
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: we'll
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: see, yeah.
[Aaron]: it. You want to hear my spicy take on the
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: sub domain sub domain thing?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sub the main
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: thing.
[Aaron]: want there to be inertia.laravelle.com too. And I
[Ian Landsman]: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[Aaron]: know I know that inertia is like all things to all people. A little Bible reference
[Aaron]: there. But I know
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: that inertia has all these different frameworks.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: I want I want it to be first party
[Ian Landsman]: to be
[Aaron]: Laravel.
[Ian Landsman]: in the fold,
[Aaron]: Yes,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: I want it to be in the fold, fully adopted. And I know that it's like feature
[Aaron]: complete or whatever, but I just want it to be more specific to Laravel and maybe
[Aaron]: like, sure, continue on with the other frameworks, you know, bless their hearts. But
[Aaron]: like, I want it to be more specific to Laravel.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, this is a very interesting point because this is actually, um, one of
[Ian Landsman]: the things I hit with inertia and now it's been like two months, so I don't
[Ian Landsman]: even remember the exact details, but basically
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I hit a thing where like, I thought it should be doing something a little
[Ian Landsman]: bit differently and I wish I could remember the details, but I literally
[Ian Landsman]: don't even remember the details,
[Aaron]: This is
[Ian Landsman]: but
[Aaron]: gonna be a good one. This is gonna be
[Ian Landsman]: yeah,
[Aaron]: good content. Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: but, but that's not really the point. The point is that like, that it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: everybody's like, yeah, it's done. It's featured complete. And I'm like,
[Ian Landsman]: well, but like. here's the
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: thing of how it's handling something like across the wire that like, I feel like
[Ian Landsman]: it should be doing a little bit differently. That would be easier to then
[Ian Landsman]: manage. I believe it was like
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: on the Laravel side, it could be doing something a little differently to
[Ian Landsman]: be better. And everybody's like, no, it's feature complete. And I'm like, I
[Ian Landsman]: kind of get where they're coming from. That's like,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: well, like, yes, like maybe like literally the wire. protocol
[Aaron]: Protocol,
[Ian Landsman]: of it is
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: feature complete, but I feel like there's these other maybe rough edges
[Ian Landsman]: and I'm poking around, other people seem to have the same rough edges
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: and things. And I'm like, I don't know, like then I do, I wanna be on the
[Ian Landsman]: thing that's like feature complete. Like what's, where is this software that's
[Ian Landsman]: done? Like I'm dying to find the done software. I've
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: never had done software ever. I feel like that's not really a thing. And
[Ian Landsman]: so that it's done feels a little anti-me, whereas like LiveWire is like, okay,
[Ian Landsman]: there's all this activity. I know
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: Caleb's
[Aaron]: yep,
[Ian Landsman]: super
[Aaron]: yep.
[Ian Landsman]: building it out. And it's like, the thing that's moving forward and is not
[Ian Landsman]: feature complete since I don't know what that means in software exactly
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: really so anyway that's kind of where I'm at so I agree like I would love
[Ian Landsman]: it to see I think whether I'm using it or not it would be awesome if it was
[Ian Landsman]: Sort of fully, I think it has been like sort of mostly adopted, but yeah,
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: think
[Ian Landsman]: definitely
[Aaron]: it has,
[Ian Landsman]: not official
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: official. And so, and I don't know if Taylor's inclined to like put a bunch
[Ian Landsman]: of work into it and things like that, especially since it isn't like just a
[Ian Landsman]: Laravel thing. It's sort of
[Aaron]: Right?
[Ian Landsman]: has to then maintain the Ruby version and I think
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: there's whatever other random frameworks it supports. So
[Aaron]: Yeah, there's all kinds.
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: I wonder if there's an opportunity for someone with good taste to like build on
[Aaron]: top of inertia that is Laravel specific.
[Ian Landsman]: I think there is a project where someone forked it and was doing a lot of the
[Ian Landsman]: stuff
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: I remember
[Ian Landsman]: people have
[Aaron]: that.
[Ian Landsman]: been kind of complaining about, but I don't know where
[Aaron]: I don't
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: think it went
[Ian Landsman]: stands.
[Aaron]: very far.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so that's the thing. It's like to get that momentum is so hard in open
[Ian Landsman]: source to,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: like you can fork anything obviously, but can you then like build up the crew around
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: it who
[Aaron]: exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: are interested in participating in it
[Aaron]: Oh,
[Ian Landsman]: is
[Aaron]: you know
[Ian Landsman]: much
[Aaron]: who should
[Ian Landsman]: harder.
[Aaron]: do this is Boris. Genius,
[Ian Landsman]: There you go.
[Aaron]: genius
[Ian Landsman]: More work
[Aaron]: machine
[Ian Landsman]: for Boris.
[Aaron]: Boris. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: Maybe
[Aaron]: Boris,
[Ian Landsman]: Hello
[Aaron]: if
[Ian Landsman]: Query
[Aaron]: you're listening,
[Ian Landsman]: takes
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: it over.
[Aaron]: should do this. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: There you go.
[Aaron]: yeah, we should definitely take on more. That's a good idea. Okay, Year of LiveWire,
[Aaron]: I buy it. Good,
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: good, good segment there. I think I wanna talk about LinkedIn.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh, going from the new school to the old school.
[Aaron]: Not terrible, like actually
[Ian Landsman]: Question
[Aaron]: kinda
[Ian Landsman]: mark?
[Aaron]: good, yeah. Um, okay,
[Ian Landsman]: Well,
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: good is far, but let's hear your take on it.
[Aaron]: here's... I said not terrible. Yeah, I maybe wrote down good, but I said not terrible.
[Aaron]: So historically, here's what I've thought about LinkedIn. LinkedIn
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: is a place where you go to tell made-up inspiring stories about how wonderful you are,
[Aaron]: right? So like,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: I'm walking to a job interview and there's a dog that needed water and I gave
[Aaron]: it water and I got to the interview and the dog was the Like wow,
[Ian Landsman]: I'm
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: sorry.
[Aaron]: amazing. That's incredible. It's like that's how I viewed LinkedIn forever
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: It's cringe. It's terrible. It's corporate speak. It's nothing and to be fair. There's
[Aaron]: a lot of that still there But I went over and posted some stuff on LinkedIn. I think
[Aaron]: the one that really Surprised me was there's a PHP developers group over there and
[Aaron]: I went and posted my PHP doesn't suck anymore video and it got like 400 reactions,
[Aaron]: I think is what
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: they call it, several dozen comments and like 30,000 views of the post, not the
[Aaron]: video,
[Ian Landsman]: All
[Aaron]: so
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: like 30,000 impressions
[Ian Landsman]: Wow.
[Aaron]: on this LinkedIn post. And I was like, who is active over here? And I think that's
[Aaron]: indicative of my small mind is like, I only see
[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha.
[Aaron]: Twitter as social media, but there's a whole
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: world out there.
[Ian Landsman]: Yep.
[Aaron]: And so I've started posting a little bit more a little bit more content over there.
[Aaron]: And I think one of my rules is always gonna be yourself. And so I'm not doing like
[Aaron]: the, you know, the cringe business content. I'm just basically
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: saying the same things I would say on Twitter. And I've noticed that it's getting
[Aaron]: a lot of, like a lot of traction
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.
[Aaron]: and I'm super surprised. And so I tweeted something like, you know, LinkedIn might be
[Aaron]: a viable place to hang. And you said something like, yeah, it's always been pretty
[Aaron]: good. Where, what have I been missing?
[Ian Landsman]: Well, I don't know. I said something along those lines, but really, I
[Aaron]: You're
[Ian Landsman]: mean,
[Aaron]: really walking back the good
[Ian Landsman]: I'm
[Aaron]: thing.
[Ian Landsman]: walking back
[Aaron]: You're...
[Ian Landsman]: on that because,
[Aaron]: You don't want to be on the record as saying it's good. Ha ha.
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, well, not that it's just so it's very interesting. First of all, that
[Ian Landsman]: you even had a more sort of a deeper understanding of it than I did until
[Ian Landsman]: like maybe a year or two ago when I started relooking to it again is more
[Ian Landsman]: like, I literally just thought it was a directory of corporate
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: people.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: Like and I was on there and occasionally people would be like, you know,
[Ian Landsman]: can we connect to you or whatever they called
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: it. And I would just go through like once a year and like check all the little
[Ian Landsman]: check boxes for the hundred people who asked to be connected and I would
[Ian Landsman]: let them be connected and then I wouldn't come back for a year. And I know
[Ian Landsman]: you could in-mail. And so I was like, okay, well, I guess people are over
[Ian Landsman]: there in-mailing each other and like, whatever, fine. But then like recently,
[Ian Landsman]: I don't know if it's like the fall of the, you know, kind of the semi fall
[Aaron]: Hmm
[Ian Landsman]: from grace of Twitter, we ignited it, or this has always been going on, so maybe
[Ian Landsman]: somebody can tell us the history, but then I was like, Oh, there's like actually
[Ian Landsman]: people like, I didn't even know about the boss dog story. Like, I just thought
[Ian Landsman]: there was like nothing going on there, but there's actually people posting
[Ian Landsman]: stuff there, like
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Twitter ish social media, like fashion. And I was like, Oh, wow. And so then,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, like then looking around a little more, everybody's like, yeah. Of course,
[Ian Landsman]: like LinkedIn's like the best place to post your stuff. And I'm like, really?
[Ian Landsman]: Like, I don't even think, I can't even think of LinkedIn. Like anytime
[Aaron]: Unfathomable.
[Ian Landsman]: I go to say anything in a social context, I never consider LinkedIn. I never
[Ian Landsman]: think
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: about it. I've been recently trying to make myself think about it unsuccessfully,
[Ian Landsman]: but I'm going to keep trying because I do think, I mean, it makes sense.
[Ian Landsman]: It's like, especially if you're on the angle of. you know, the more businessy
[Ian Landsman]: angle where I'm trying
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: to get
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: my name out there for my products or services or whatever. Well, like just talking
[Ian Landsman]: to pure business people probably makes more sense than just the randos on
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: Twitter. Right? But yeah, I don't know. There is, have you solved this
[Ian Landsman]: barrier? Like to me, there's things I still don't even understand. Like
[Ian Landsman]: you can be followed, but that's different than the thing
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: with the check mark. And I don't understand. I guess you could just follow me
[Ian Landsman]: without the check mark. And these are
[Aaron]: Correct.
[Ian Landsman]: two separate systems, I
[Aaron]: You
[Ian Landsman]: guess.
[Aaron]: can like
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: don't
[Aaron]: can
[Ian Landsman]: know,
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: the whole thing's
[Aaron]: turn
[Ian Landsman]: weird.
[Aaron]: on I think you can turn on creator mode or like something
[Ian Landsman]: Okay.
[Aaron]: like that on LinkedIn and that allows you to have followers and then
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: you can have the traditional like connections where
[Ian Landsman]: Okay, and those
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: are
[Aaron]: those
[Ian Landsman]: separate.
[Aaron]: people can message you or like you know them
[Ian Landsman]: Right, you're the one degree, two degree, whatever degrees separation, yeah.
[Aaron]: I don't really care about connections over there to be honest. So sometimes I'll
[Aaron]: get a whole bunch of connection requests and I'm like, I don't know any of you people
[Aaron]: know. And then sometimes I get some and I'm like, sure, whatever, I don't care.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: And so I don't have really good rules on that. But yeah, the turning on creator mode
[Aaron]: or follower mode or whatever it's called,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: separates the number of connections you have from the number of followers you have,
[Aaron]: which I think... makes it more like a social network than just
[Ian Landsman]: Riot.
[Aaron]: a traditional networking type thing.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, that's why I was talking to, I think the thing that really woke me up
[Ian Landsman]: was just like a few months ago. And I was talking to Eric Barnes of
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: Laravel News and he was saying how they have a hundred thousand followers
[Ian Landsman]: on LinkedIn. And I was like,
[Aaron]: Whoa.
[Ian Landsman]: what are you even talking about? It's like, yeah, we got a hundred thousand
[Ian Landsman]: followers. And I'm like, holy cow. Like who would have even thought? I haven't
[Ian Landsman]: even considered LinkedIn in
[Aaron]: He said
[Ian Landsman]: 20
[Aaron]: on Twitter
[Ian Landsman]: years.
[Aaron]: that LinkedIn drives more clicks to
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Laravel News than Twitter does.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Which makes sense. It all makes sense, but now it's just
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: like, how do I retrain my brain?
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: It's very difficult. Um,
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: but I do want to, because I think it just makes a lot more sense over there,
[Ian Landsman]: but, uh, we'll see maybe with some of this new stuff coming down the pike,
[Ian Landsman]: I can, I can try to rework my brain over to there a bit more, but so what
[Ian Landsman]: have you utilized that, like, have you posted about screencasting or what
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: have
[Aaron]: I've posted
[Ian Landsman]: you
[Aaron]: about
[Ian Landsman]: done?
[Aaron]: screencasting,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I've shared some of the YouTube videos, and
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: then something I'm trying to do as much as makes sense whenever I have something
[Aaron]: visual to share is make a little video about it, even if it's just like a screen recording,
[Aaron]: not like a talking head or anything.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Because to my understanding, which I don't spend a lot of time researching the
[Aaron]: rules of these networks, but to my understanding, every network is like... They
[Aaron]: want you to stay, they want the viewers to stay as long as possible. They want video,
[Aaron]: they want engagement. And so
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: I think, I always think like, what do the networks want? What do I want to do
[Aaron]: slash what am I comfortable like putting out there publicly? Like I don't ever want
[Aaron]: to end up in the spot where I'm I'm like tweeting these wise business sayings
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: because they get a lot of engagement. So like there's some happy medium between what
[Aaron]: does the network want? What do I wanna do? What is honest to me? And honestly,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: video is very easy. So like
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: with the site redesign,
[Ian Landsman]: That's a good point.
[Aaron]: you know, I'm tinkering around and I'm like, hey, I like the way that this looks.
[Aaron]: I could do a screenshot and that's better than nothing. Or I could make a little
[Aaron]: video of the interaction and then tweet that and put that also on LinkedIn. And that
[Aaron]: I think... drives the engagement up a little bit and at least drives
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: the watch time up. And then so then Twitter's like, ah, we'll push this to more
[Aaron]: people.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: So that's kind of what I've done recently is take these short little screen recording
[Aaron]: videos that are like 30 seconds or whatever,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: and then put a little bit of text with like, hey, I'm working on this thing. And that's
[Aaron]: another thing. I always wanna be like a little bit of the moment and talk about what
[Aaron]: I'm actually doing and not
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: like. I'm sitting in my ivory tower talking about, you know, how you should think
[Aaron]: about software development or business.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: It's
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha
[Aaron]: like, ah, that's just not my brand and I don't wanna do that. So that's kinda
[Aaron]: what I'm thinking in terms of what am I putting on specifically LinkedIn at this
[Aaron]: point.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, now that I have the new video set up, I kind of want to do more video
[Ian Landsman]: too. I think that makes sense. It is pretty quick to do really. And
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I'll have the screencasting course to
[Aaron]: Exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: make sure I'm doing it correctly. Cause that is
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: the part I get into like screen flow and I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing
[Ian Landsman]: in here. Forget
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: it. So
[Aaron]: yep,
[Ian Landsman]: like,
[Aaron]: I got you.
[Ian Landsman]: that'll be good. Yeah. So, yeah. So doing more video. How do you handle this?
[Ian Landsman]: Like, there is this so, I'm starting to think about some of the stuff for
[Ian Landsman]: like my new projects. And... It's like how early you talk about them. Like
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I hate, you know, cause you're so small, whether it was just you or even with
[Ian Landsman]: a small team, it's like stuff just comes up and then you're sidetracked for
[Ian Landsman]: a month. That just
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: happens all the time.
[Aaron]: Uh
[Ian Landsman]: And
[Aaron]: huh.
[Ian Landsman]: so then you don't make any progress for a month. And
[Aaron]: Uhhhhhh...
[Ian Landsman]: so I hate talking about it like too early, but also you have to talk about
[Ian Landsman]: it. I think a lot
[Aaron]: You've
[Ian Landsman]: of the
[Aaron]: got
[Ian Landsman]: interest
[Aaron]: to.
[Ian Landsman]: and engagement
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: is like, here's what I'm doing. This is what went wrong. So if I'm not talking
[Ian Landsman]: about it early, then it's just like, oh, it's launch day. And then whatever,
[Aaron]: Exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: you haven't built up any momentum. So
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: there is this like balance Like I want it to be functional to some degree before
[Ian Landsman]: I really get into talking about it, but also not too
[Aaron]: Man.
[Ian Landsman]: far along that it's already too far along. So I don't know.
[Aaron]: I feel that deep in my bones
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: because like
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: we
[Ian Landsman]: tricky.
[Aaron]: talked about, you know, expansion, contraction, you do a thing and then you're
[Aaron]: like, I can't do this thing right now. And then, you know, you cut it. And I'll be
[Aaron]: honest, it's a little embarrassing to talk about something you're doing
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: and then
[Ian Landsman]: that's true too.
[Aaron]: have to like have to pull back for a second. And then months later, people are
[Aaron]: like, oh, are you ever going to finish that thing? And you're like, yeah, honestly,
[Aaron]: I'm trying. Like
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: yes, I want to.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: And I will. But like, I... I have a full life full of things that I'm doing that
[Aaron]: are not just like the one thing that I'm tweeting about or the one thing that you
[Aaron]: latched
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: on to that I'm tweeting about, right?
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: So yeah, I feel that a lot. And I think the risk, so the benefits, let's talk about
[Aaron]: the benefits. The upside I think is potentially unlimited, you know?
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: You share the thing, somebody shares it, whatever, the whole deal of like, you put
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: yourself out there, good things are gonna happen. The downside is you're gonna
[Aaron]: potentially be embarrassed. And I feel that a lot. Like I
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: feel that a whole lot of, I'll put something out there and then have to drop it
[Aaron]: for sometimes a long time and people are like, why didn't you do that? And it is
[Aaron]: embarrassing and it sucks and I hate it.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: But I think it's better, like I have found that it's better to just like, talk about
[Aaron]: what you're working on at the time. And then like, just kind of hope that you carry
[Aaron]: it through. Like I have
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: a lot of open, I have a lot of open threads on what I'm doing and what people know
[Aaron]: that I'm doing and that sort of stuff. And sometimes I'll
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: pick up a thread and like push it down the road a little bit, mixed metaphor. I'll
[Aaron]: push the, you know, kick the ball
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: down the field, whatever.
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha.
[Aaron]: And sometimes I have to drop it. But like, I think the screencasting one is a good
[Aaron]: example. I didn't really tweet much about it at all until I was pretty close to
[Aaron]: being done because that one I knew like... man, you got a long road ahead of you.
[Aaron]: Like you just got the design
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: done and the design is very cool. I got the design done in like April or something,
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: but I hadn't recorded a single video and I was like,
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: I'm not gonna start this treadmill until I'm pretty
[Ian Landsman]: All
[Aaron]: close
[Ian Landsman]: right,
[Aaron]: to done because
[Ian Landsman]: so there
[Aaron]: that
[Ian Landsman]: you go.
[Aaron]: one
[Ian Landsman]: That's
[Aaron]: I wanted,
[Ian Landsman]: a good example for me,
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I like that, yeah.
[Aaron]: I wanna keep the hype, like I wanna carry the hype through to like the launch day
[Aaron]: where people pay me money and buy the thing
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: instead of like, this is something I'm just kind of working on, let's all see
[Aaron]: how it develops together. So,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I don't know, it's tough.
[Ian Landsman]: It is tough. It's, it's a very tough call. Yeah. But I liked that idea. I
[Ian Landsman]: mean, I guess that's kind of what I was thinking. It's like, I want to get
[Ian Landsman]: things to a point where they're like semi-functional and more than just an
[Ian Landsman]: idea in my head, but then
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: definitely way before. Yeah. It's coming out in a month or whatever. Like
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: gotta be before that. Um, what kind of gets into this whole idea too of like,
[Ian Landsman]: uh, I don't know, maybe we should say this for another episode, but I want to
[Ian Landsman]: get into that Tony Fidel tweet at some point that I'm obsessed
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: with. And
[Aaron]: let's
[Ian Landsman]: let's
[Aaron]: save
[Ian Landsman]: say
[Aaron]: that,
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: because I feel like
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, let's say that.
[Aaron]: that's gonna be a big one. You know
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: what I wanna end on?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, let's give
[Aaron]: I wanna
[Ian Landsman]: it.
[Aaron]: end on the fact that your kids aren't gonna drive. What's going on there?
[Ian Landsman]: Uh, trust me, this
[Aaron]: Ha!
[Ian Landsman]: is a very interesting, interesting story. You as a young, a young parent, um,
[Ian Landsman]: I'm going to come down, be the old wise man
[Aaron]: Alright,
[Ian Landsman]: here
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: in part
[Aaron]: tell me.
[Ian Landsman]: knowledge that like. You just have all these thoughts about your kids when
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: they're little or before you have kids or all these things. And then like
[Ian Landsman]: what actually how the world changes along the way is quite interesting.
[Ian Landsman]: And then how that impacts your children is quite interesting because the world
[Ian Landsman]: you have your kids in will not be the world that they grow up in and then
[Ian Landsman]: become young
[Aaron]: True.
[Ian Landsman]: adults in.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: And so. Yeah, like everything's changed in the world. So I don't know, of the
[Ian Landsman]: three kids, only the oldest so far has not got his license and doesn't
[Ian Landsman]: have really any interest
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: in
[Aaron]: hit
[Ian Landsman]: driving.
[Aaron]: me with the ages
[Ian Landsman]: So.
[Aaron]: again. How old are they?
[Ian Landsman]: So he's 17
[Aaron]: Seventeen.
[Ian Landsman]: and then the younger two are too young guys, 13 and 10. So,
[Aaron]: Okay, so the
[Ian Landsman]: but the
[Aaron]: 17
[Ian Landsman]: other two,
[Aaron]: year old.
[Ian Landsman]: at least right now are the younger two are like, we want to drive like they are
[Ian Landsman]: a little more
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: like how I felt. I mean, I was there literally the day I turned 16
[Aaron]: Yep, same.
[Ian Landsman]: in, in the DMV to like get my license and do all this stuff. Fine. Uh, but
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, the oldest he's not interested in it. And then at first we're
[Aaron]: So how
[Ian Landsman]: like.
[Aaron]: does he get around?
[Ian Landsman]: It's totally, he is okay with sacrifices. I would not be okay with. So
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: like, obviously we take them or, um, pretty much like, obviously we're taking
[Ian Landsman]: it most of the time, he has a girlfriend. So sometimes the girlfriend's
[Ian Landsman]: family takes him, but like even
[Aaron]: Does
[Ian Landsman]: right
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: there,
[Aaron]: girlfriend
[Ian Landsman]: like,
[Aaron]: drive? The girlfriend doesn't
[Ian Landsman]: no,
[Aaron]: drive either?
[Ian Landsman]: the girlfriend doesn't drive and he doesn't
[Aaron]: What?
[Ian Landsman]: drive. I know. And so like when
[Aaron]: Oh my goodness!
[Ian Landsman]: I, so I'm married to the woman I was dating when I was his age. So we are
[Ian Landsman]: married, my wife and I have been
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: together the whole time. And like, I was, I lived at her house. Like I,
[Ian Landsman]: like as soon as I got my license, I was gone. I was at
[Aaron]: Yeah!
[Ian Landsman]: her house all day every day. And We would go, whatever, we're driving all
[Ian Landsman]: over. We'd go to New York City, even though that was illegal, because you have
[Ian Landsman]: to be 18 to drive there. We'd be all over the place, right? And so we just,
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, I literally was never home. The minute I got my license, that was
[Ian Landsman]: it. That's the last my family saw me. I was out like 8 a.m. till midnight
[Ian Landsman]: every day. I was out in the world.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: And I don't know, he's like fine with it. And part of that is like that
[Ian Landsman]: the technology, like whatever, he can talk to his girlfriend, he can message
[Ian Landsman]: her, he can video chat with her, he could do whatever, like. I don't know,
[Ian Landsman]: like they're okay with it. And so then we started like just seeing these articles
[Ian Landsman]: pop up. This is not even weird. Like this is just a, this is a thing now. Like
[Aaron]: YEELEY
[Ian Landsman]: it's like a huge percentage of kids are not getting their license when
[Ian Landsman]: they're 16. It's like 50% or something crazy. And, and yeah, so I don't
[Ian Landsman]: know. Like,
[Aaron]: Wow.
[Ian Landsman]: is it because I know there's Uber? Is it because like people are gonna live
[Ian Landsman]: in cities and they feel like they don't need it? I don't know, but. He doesn't
[Ian Landsman]: really have any interest in he's okay with the limitations of like obviously
[Ian Landsman]: only being able to go places when we can take him for the most part. And,
[Ian Landsman]: um, yeah,
[Aaron]: Wow,
[Ian Landsman]: so it's very,
[Aaron]: I cannot
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: imagine.
[Ian Landsman]: very interesting.
[Aaron]: Okay, so being 16, driving through McDonald's and getting a McFlurry,
[Ian Landsman]: Lived
[Aaron]: and then
[Ian Landsman]: at McDonald's.
[Aaron]: drive around at like 11 at night, listening to Postal Service, thinking
[Ian Landsman]: Yup.
[Aaron]: about how you're never gonna die. Like that
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: is being 16!
[Ian Landsman]: I know. It's
[Aaron]: Wow!
[Ian Landsman]: very strange to me. That is, yes. I would just drive up and down our main
[Ian Landsman]: road, like
[Aaron]: Yes,
[Ian Landsman]: listen
[Aaron]: for
[Ian Landsman]: to music.
[Aaron]: sure. Take the long way home, yep.
[Ian Landsman]: Yup. Just like back and forth and yeah. Like, but you know, that's a whole
[Ian Landsman]: weird thing. I mean, with technology, I think, I mean, this is all part of the, I
[Ian Landsman]: guess, I feel like it's possibly a detriment. Who knows if it's actually
[Aaron]: That was a
[Ian Landsman]: a
[Aaron]: deep
[Ian Landsman]: detriment,
[Aaron]: breath. You
[Ian Landsman]: but
[Aaron]: were stealing
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: yourself for that whatever you were about to say
[Ian Landsman]: But
[Aaron]: there.
[Ian Landsman]: it's like even just driving around in my town, which is the
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: town I grew up in. So I know this town very well. I mean, when I'd ride
[Ian Landsman]: my bike around before I had a license, I mean,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: there was kids everywhere, kids on bikes.
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: I remember
[Aaron]: yep.
[Ian Landsman]: being scared of the kids on bikes. I remember
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: being friends with other kids on bikes, kids walking, kids everywhere. And
[Ian Landsman]: there's no kids anywhere now. Like there's no kids riding bikes. There's
[Ian Landsman]: no kids walking. There's no kids anywhere. So I do think there is. And
[Ian Landsman]: then, I mean, you think about like how did COVID impact all that?
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: Like a
[Aaron]: for
[Ian Landsman]: lot of
[Aaron]: sure.
[Ian Landsman]: these kids in their kind of formative years were like, well, no, now like
[Ian Landsman]: you're already staying inside a lot because you have game systems and phones
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: and all these things. And now like, no, you're really staying inside. And
[Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So it's just like that. This is the culture
[Aaron]: Amazing.
[Ian Landsman]: for this age range, but I don't know. He said he might get it at some point.
[Ian Landsman]: So he's not totally, totally written it off. but he's not in any rush
[Aaron]: Wow.
[Ian Landsman]: which is very interesting and definitely one of these things where like yeah
[Ian Landsman]: like I would never in a million years think I'd have a kid who didn't want
[Ian Landsman]: to drive because like I was like driver number one like I was there
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: minute
[Aaron]: for
[Ian Landsman]: one
[Aaron]: real.
[Ian Landsman]: doing it so yeah it's interesting
[Aaron]: Yeah, I mean, my bet with my wife is that our kids will never learn to drive because
[Aaron]: cars will drive themselves.
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: Not,
[Ian Landsman]: saw you say that.
[Aaron]: yeah, not because they won't want to. Maybe I'll win the bet on a technicality.
[Ian Landsman]: Man.
[Aaron]: So like, maybe that's
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: a good
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: thing.
[Ian Landsman]: you go.
[Aaron]: I love winning. Yeah, as long as I win, I'm happy. But
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I've been watching like the, I think it's Zooks, maybe Z-O-O-X has won.
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: Cruise has won. But like the Zooks cars are, it's interesting when you go to like
[Aaron]: autonomous vehicles, for real autonomous vehicles,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: they don't have to be, the interiors don't have to be designed and shaped like cars
[Aaron]: of the
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: past,
[Ian Landsman]: know, that's
[Aaron]: right?
[Ian Landsman]: what I want, yeah.
[Aaron]: Yeah, and so these Zooks cars are like mobile living rooms, basically, or they're
[Aaron]: like, you know, single, like single parts of a train, but on wheels. So you have
[Aaron]: like,
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: I think four seats that face each other and you just kind of push a button and it shows
[Aaron]: up and the little, you know, the little doors open and you climb in and then they close
[Aaron]: and... I think that's gonna be, frankly, I think that's gonna be the future. I think
[Aaron]: it's gonna be, even if you own one, maybe you own one, maybe not everything is
[Aaron]: a rental or on demand or whatever, but you have a vehicle that you can get in
[Aaron]: and tune out until you get to the spot you're going. And we don't have time to talk
[Aaron]: about it today, but also I think tunnels are the future. You can get me started about
[Ian Landsman]: You're
[Aaron]: tunnels.
[Ian Landsman]: full
[Aaron]: We
[Ian Landsman]: on the Elon,
[Aaron]: could, we could
[Ian Landsman]: the
[Aaron]: do it,
[Ian Landsman]: Elon
[Aaron]: we could,
[Ian Landsman]: train.
[Aaron]: yeah, we could do a whole hour on how everything should be underground. So, but I
[Aaron]: think, I think that's the future, but hey, if I went on a technicality
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.
[Aaron]: of like, you know, kids just want to stay inside, I
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: guess I win.
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, you should check the fine print of your,
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: of
[Aaron]: know,
[Ian Landsman]: your bet
[Aaron]: I need
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: to,
[Ian Landsman]: of
[Aaron]: I need,
[Ian Landsman]: if it
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: actually is, does it have to be truly autonomous or just that nobody drives
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: anymore?
[Aaron]: know,
[Ian Landsman]: Cause
[Aaron]: maybe
[Ian Landsman]: everybody
[Aaron]: I'll
[Ian Landsman]: is
[Aaron]: keep
[Ian Landsman]: V
[Aaron]: bringing it up to her and
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: I'll just
[Ian Landsman]: all
[Aaron]: drop
[Ian Landsman]: Apple
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: VR
[Aaron]: the autonomous.
[Ian Landsman]: headsets and like nobody actually leaves their house anymore.
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: So yeah,
[Aaron]: exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: it could be, it could be. All
[Aaron]: Okay, well we'll see,
[Ian Landsman]: right,
[Aaron]: check
[Ian Landsman]: man.
[Aaron]: back in. Let's see, they're
[Ian Landsman]: We'll,
[Aaron]: two years
[Ian Landsman]: we'll check
[Aaron]: old, check
[Ian Landsman]: back.
[Aaron]: back in 14 years.
[Ian Landsman]: Episode
[Aaron]: So y'all stay tuned. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: 7,846
[Aaron]: stay tuned to the pod. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: will.
[Aaron]: exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: We'll know for sure, but I mean sounds good
[Aaron]: Alright, talk to you soon. See ya!
[Ian Landsman]: We will yeah, I want to hey hold on
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: I want
[Aaron]: wow
[Ian Landsman]: to know
[Aaron]: we have a
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: whole
[Ian Landsman]: know
[Aaron]: list
[Ian Landsman]: to know
[Aaron]: now!
[Ian Landsman]: where to find us Yes, because every episode you like
[Aaron]: We
[Ian Landsman]: tell him
[Aaron]: fumbled
[Ian Landsman]: where to find
[Aaron]: it last
[Ian Landsman]: us.
[Aaron]: time.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: All
[Ian Landsman]: and
[Aaron]: right,
[Ian Landsman]: I'm always
[Aaron]: okay,
[Ian Landsman]: like, I
[Aaron]: back
[Ian Landsman]: don't know
[Aaron]: up, back
[Ian Landsman]: where to
[Aaron]: up,
[Ian Landsman]: find
[Aaron]: back up.
[Ian Landsman]: us
[Aaron]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do the thing
[Ian Landsman]: I don't
[Aaron]: where
[Ian Landsman]: know
[Aaron]: you say, all right, man, and I'll say, all right, and then we'll go to where to find
[Aaron]: us. So start over, go ahead.
[Ian Landsman]: All right, man
[Aaron]: All right, well, Ian, where can people find us? That was perfect.
[Ian Landsman]: You can find us at mostlytechnical.com, on Twitter at mostlytechpod. I guess we should
[Ian Landsman]: get a LinkedIn. I don't know if that's even a thing, but we should look
[Ian Landsman]: into
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: no.
[Ian Landsman]: And then mostlytechnicalpodcast.gmail.com. So if you have feedback, you can send that
[Ian Landsman]: there, or just hit us up on Twitter, and we will note that for the feedback
[Ian Landsman]: segments. But all right, thanks everybody.
[Aaron]: Okay now that's the end, see ya!
[Ian Landsman]: See ya!