Kevin: Hello, and welcome to Subspace Radio.
It's episode 71 for us.
It's episode nine for Lower Decks season five.
We're here to talk about Fissure Quest and I am Kevin.
Rob: And I am Rob, and I friggin hate the multiverse.
Kevin: So, so, uh, so good.
I only saw in hindsight what they did there is they knew the amount
of multiversal apathy there is among genre fiction consumers like us.
And so they got ahead of it with Boimler being more frustrated about
it that any of us could possibly be.
Rob: And yeah, it's the perfect, uh, uh, commentary on where the, the pop
culture world is at the moment with, uh, so much stuff focusing on, uh,
Well, it hasn't been coined multiverse until like within the last couple of
years, but before that it was, you know, parallel dimensions, alternate
dimensions, all that type of stuff.
Sliders created an entire existence with our dear old Ransom, uh, Jerry
O'Connell, in that show as well.
But multiverse has now become the go-to word that has not struck excitement or
joy, but dread, fear, and annoyance.
Not only with pop culture fans and nerds everywhere, but also
characters in said pop culture shows.
Kevin: The grand removal of stakes, as I like to think of it.
Rob: Yeah, very much so.
Anything is possible, nothing is interesting, and no one dies.
Kevin: Yeah.
But, uh, we're getting ahead of ourselves.
Uh, I think, uh, it's, it's worth calling out that the thing that we saw in this
episode that we most wanted to talk about was, uh, some of our returning characters,
specifically Harry Kim and T'Pol.
T'Pol, Rob!
Rob: T'Pol is back!
And uh, it was so fresh in my mind after watching it when we decided,
oh wait, there's been so much talk.
We've talked about it on this podcast many times.
Harry Kim has to show up at some point.
He has been alluded to, he's been the go to joke within the Star Trek world.
And I just said, we've got to do Harry Kim, we've got to do Harry Kim.
You compromised and said, well, let's do Kim and T'Pol.
I was so excited by that, I forgot the biggest thing we should have
focused on, which was Garak and Bashir.
Kevin: We could have done a whole episode on Garak and Bashir
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: absolutely.
Um, but yes, we'll talk about all of that as we, uh, walk through our
favorite moments of this episode and then, and then dwell on some
Kim and T'Pol outings of the past.
So let's get into it.
Fissure Quest, what did you think, Rob?
Rob: Look, um, despite all of William Boimler, our lead character in this
one, of course, the, the clone of, uh, Brad Boimler, who, uh, we thought
had died, but had gone to a parallel dimension, is now, uh, leading a ship
that looks a lot like the Defiant, but it has its own name, and trying to stop,
um, uh, these dimensional fissures.
Um, and despite the fact that he does not like it at all, and he's so sick
and tired of the multiverse, this is one of the freshest and most enjoyable,
uh, multiverse adventures I've ever seen in any medium, particularly how
they explain how this is another form of exploring a final frontier, uh,
with some of the characters returned.
It is dropping so many nerd drops, uh, so many nerd cookies, um, so
many memory bites, so many characters are coming back in this one.
All of the original actors coming back to play them as well, which I was shocked by.
I thought that Garak and Bashir were, were just um, uh, sound alikes, but no,
they got, um, them all back as well, and uh, I was just about to say, Alfre
Kevin: As soon as she went, Hang on, you're Lily Sloan!
I went, there is no way they got Alfre Woodard.
But there she was in the
Rob: The great Alfre.
If Alfre Woodard could do Desperate Housewives season 2, then she
will definitely come and do, uh, a return of her character that
she played in First Contact for
Kevin: Look, the only thing they didn't do is they didn't get the old man
who played Curzon in the flashbacks of Deep Space Nine to come and lend
his voice to the character here.
We assume.
As far as we
Rob: As far as we know, he is well and truly dead and buried.
He did sound like one
Kevin: Look, I'll say,
Rob: He sounded like Shaxs.
He sounded like Shaxs to me.
Kevin: Oh, he sounded like Shaxs.
That makes sense.
I was gonna say he sounded like Rene Auberjonois to me.
Every time he opened his mouth, I kind of felt like it was Odo.
Rob: Ah, well, there is the episode where, oh, where René
Auberjonois has to play Curzon, because he slips into the, when they
Kevin: Maybe that's why.
Yeah.
Rob: Um, yeah, I loved it.
I had so much fun.
They have so much disrespect for the multiverse, but so much respect for
Star Trek, and so much nerdy respect for Star Trek, and also, like I said, they
showed a little nod of how, you know, Lily sees this as the final frontier.
This is the fun.
A universe to explore, which, um, I think is no other, no other multiverse
has yet explored, uh, it in that way.
And I'm so, so, so very thrilled that they did it.
It was a great penultimate episode for the, for the not
only season, the whole show.
What about you?
Kevin: My overarching thought is this is how you do an end
of series crossover event.
If Star Trek Enterprise showed us how not to do it, this is how you do it.
Um, so infamously Star Trek Enterprise's final episode is a crossover with
Star Trek The Next Generation.
And we have Riker and Troi in there.
And our main cast of characters and their stories are kind of sidelined for
the final episode of their own series.
Rob: we use here, they are the B plot.
Kevin: Yeah, and you can totally see how they got there, but also the
lesson is clearly there to be learned.
And they did it in the right order this time.
Fissure Quest is where we, you know, pile on everyone who is left
on our wish list of guest stars and return characters from the past.
Let's find an excuse to pile them all into one episode and do it right,
and then clear the table for our, our main cast to be the stars of their
own show in the finale next week.
Rob: Most definitely, yeah.
It was a smart move, a clever move, and beautiful writing.
Excellently executed, um.
Kevin: The way they dovetailed those two things really work for me as well.
Like this whole episode is a setup for the crisis that our main characters
will have to resolve next week So that dynamic, uh, it really it was
satisfying to watch in real time and then looking back on what they did.
I just have to like, you know, give them the respect they're due.
They did it right, the end of this series and the way this, this particular episode
functions as a setup is, is so good.
We, we did not allow, uh, all of these guests to upstage our own
characters in their own show.
Um.
That said, so delightful.
Yes.
Every single one of them, Garak and Holo Bashir, Curzon Dax, T'Pol, Harry
Kim, who says, Whoa, whoa, whoa.
There's more than two dimensions?
Every single one of them was both a loving homage, but also like
poking fun at the characters too.
Like this was not a respectful return of Harry Kim or Curzon
Dax or any of the above.
All of them were allowed to play their own foibles and, and just as
Lower Decks always does for Star Trek, uh, poke knowing fun at themselves.
Rob: Yes, very much so.
The sheer shock and awe when they see that the latest Harry Kim that
has joined the ship has got two pips.
But I also found it was, you know, it was respectfully disrespectful, which
is the best kind of writing, but only, you know, it's very, it's very muddy
water when you get a fan of a show to be in charge or in, involved in
some sort of the writing of a show.
So we've had slips of that within, um, uh, Doctor Who.
We've had that slips within some of Star Wars.
But, um, there are some things that only fans know how to handle and handle
well without getting caught up in continuity or canon or anything like that.
So, to show, like you said, the foibles of each of these characters, but still
have a respectful moment, say, at the, without grand ending of, uh, Curzon.
That was done in such a beautiful way that two characters that we had never
seen connected before, T'Pol and Curzon, within 20 minutes, we are heartbroken.
Kevin: the katra of the other into the future of Star Trek lore.
Amazing.
Rob: Incredible stuff.
Um, really beautiful stuff.
And you know, how the relationship between Garak and Bashir plays out, which is, Such
an, uh, online, phenomenon, you know, this has become, this has grown, you know, so
much so that, you know, um, uh, the actors have recorded of, over Zoom calls, scripts
written by fans about how they're married and all this type of stuff, they've
sort of like, fandom has willed this gay relationship into existence, which is
amazing, and still has the multiverse, you know, get out jail free card by going,
Oh, they're from a different dimension.
Kevin: Yeah, at the risk of preempting next week's episode where we talk
about the finale, what blows my mind is that at the ending of all
of this, these two characters are like known to the prime universe.
So, If you'll accept that, our Garak and Bashir are going to get to find
out that there are alternate universe versions of themselves that are married.
That is especially delightful.
It doesn't, like, it moved beyond fandom.
Not just into canon, but, um, one presumes into the awareness of the characters.
Rob: It will be very interesting to see how long Bashir will stay with
Ezri Dax in the prime universe.
What I could do that?
Kevin: The return of William Boimler took me a second to get my head around.
He was last seen at the end of Crisis Point 2: Paradoxus, Season 3, Episode
8, where that character, we knew him to be on the Titan, and in that episode,
it was established in dialogue that he had died in a neuro, freak neurazine
gas accident in his quarters, and then in, as a post credit scene, we find out
he was, that death was actually faked by Section 31, and William Boimler
was going away to work in Section 31.
And I kind of had lost track in my mind of the fact that
that was an unresolved thread.
Uh, and so the fact that they, they skipped past, okay,
how did he get recruited?
Why did he get recruited?
They skipped right to, oh yeah, he's the captain of that
Defiant class ship that we saw.
Uh, and he is hunting down, um, the creator of these, these
fissures between realities.
Like, a huge leap there.
It was like, Oh, hang on, give me a second to catch up again.
Who is this?
And what do we know about him?
Uh, it, uh, it, it kind of came out of nowhere.
I'm, I'm glad they wrapped up that dangling thread, but, uh, yeah,
it was off my radar as something to be looking for this season.
Rob: Yeah, it definitely was, uh, it took me a moment to go, oh yeah, that's right,
he didn't die, and there was that post credits, uh, scene, but there's definitely
a different energy, and it's great work from Jack Quaid to be able to get so much
out of his Boimler, um, different lev yes.
Yeah, um, incredible stuff.
It's just,
Kevin: has a, has a beard, but a very short beard.
So to distinguish him from, uh, our prime Boimler.
Rob: It's more three day growth as opposed to the full beard,
but it is a lot more even.
It's like Rutherford's even three day growth, which,
Kevin: Well kept stubble.
Rob: Well kept, well manicured, or,
Kevin: and lest, uh, let us not forget, um, Mariner as well.
Yellow shirt Mariner or as, as I like to think of her just yellow Mariner
because she's scared of her own shadow.
Uh, and, uh, a beautiful turn for that character and that actor as well to
get to play a very different dimension.
In a way, uh, because Boimler is literally a transporter clone of the character we
know, so he's very similar, just same character in different circumstances.
But the Mariner we got to meet here was very different.
And when Boimler, you know, banged the table and said, what?
And she goes, don't do that!
I really, really liked how different she was.
Rob: Yes, it was quite a, uh, a jarring adjustment to go back to real, uh,
Mariner, uh, in the next episode.
Spoilers, we've already seen it, but we've already talked about it.
They go, oh no, that's right, she's a lot more ballsy bold.
But yeah, to have that Mariner with the doubt played up on her sleeve
and that self doubt in herself and fear and, you know, the nerdiness of
Mariner is, you know, is center as opposed to sort of like push behind
so that the bravado can play out.
Kevin: Yeah.
Her, her communication style is the same, but the motivation behind it is different.
Like, I really love the line when she's checking out, um, when she's
checking out Lily Sloan's USS Beagle and they're looking at the green pipes
underneath and she's like, so this is what lets you travel through realities.
And she says, well, yeah, unobserved complex gluon cores.
And Marina goes, well, you might want to observe a couple because
they're effed, was hilarious.
Um, and, and yes, reluctantly I had, I had to laugh at the, uh,
the deployment of profanity there.
It's really gotten especially thick and fast here towards the end of the series.
I feel like at the start it was still kind of, uh, taboo to use, to use the
spicy language, even here in Lower Decks.
But now at the end it's like three, three swears a minute sort of pace.
Rob: And I don't know, I guess because we do have the bleep sound, so it's
almost like the, the Star Trek universe is bleeping it personally, like,
Kevin: I like that take, yeah.
Rob: Um, so like hearing it in Picard and stuff like that, oh, the fucking
hubris, I'm going, no, no, no, no, I'd be okay with it if the, if the omnipresent
Star Trek universe bleeped it out in,
Kevin: Yes.
Yes.
Rob: So, I mean, my, my highlight for me is a great moment right at
the end, of course, which we all knew was gonna come, where William
Boimler goes, we've, we've sent the disaster into our prime dimension.
He'll know how to deal with it, of course, unless he freaks out.
And he cuts back, and he just goes, WE'RE ALL GONNA FUCKIN DIE!
Kevin: The definitive Boimler scream, I feel like, as he ran off, like clanging
pots and pans in the soundtrack.
Rob: And the scream just got higher, and higher, and higher in pitch.
It was, yeah, great way to, great way to go, we're never gonna hear that
scream again, unless it's in repeat, but, let's, let's end on a high.
And like, literally, a high note.
So yeah, I just, you know, I'm just gushing about it.
I can't talk about specifics, I'm, you know, we go to a alien
planet where, where, you know, the creatures we have seen before are
no longer nice, they are evil, yes.
Kevin: Evil Khwopians.
Least they aren't trying to drink our bones, was the line
in there if you were paying
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: So, nice veiled reference to Moopsy.
Rob: Moopsy, god bless Moopsy.
Um, yeah, it was great having, you know, Alfre Woodard there with her, you
know, voice of power, experience, charm,
Kevin: I loved, you talked about it before, but I want to plus one it.
The, the concept that we explore strange new versions of ourselves is an incredible
idea that, uh, Truly original concepts in Star Trek are so rare to encounter.
And this is one of them that really inspired me as well.
And I love how they dealt with it because they knew they would, it would take
us a second to get our heads around.
And so they allowed, they allowed our characters to have the same reaction.
And so, yeah, um, Lily patiently explains.
Yeah, Zef took a while to understand it as well.
And, um, Yeah, her, her talking about the fact that she's seen humans who
built rings around the sun, ships the size of continents, and that she
explores what humans can be mapping their potential is, is, yeah, I love that.
Rob: I mean, as a young sci fi fan, I got really into the concept of
parallel dimensions and stuff like that, and I was so excited by shows
that touched on it a little bit, um.
Or, or films and stuff like that, which was very rare growing up in like the, the
80s and 90s with that type of concept.
Um, uh, of course Sliders happened and that just became more and more of
a disappointment as it went along and didn't really fully explore the concept.
And then I've sort of like become the guy who makes, I'm the nerd on stage
who makes the gag about the fact that parallel dimensions are only, you know,
represented by zeppelins in the air, um, which a lot of parallel dimensions do.
Like anytime in Doctor Who they went to a parallel dimension, how do
we know it's a parallel dimension?
Zeppelins.
Um, but to have,
Kevin: Neelix with a crew cut?
Really big Spock?
Rob: Or evil dimension beard, um, or eyepatch.
Kevin: Really big Spock, a lovely
Rob: Really big Spock, that's right.
Um, but I just, yeah, love, uh, Lily's exploration of going this, you know,
seeing what humans are, the potential of humans and what they're capable of.
Kevin: I can't think of a better pitch for a reincarnation of this series
because that's the problem with this, this idea that parallel dimensions are
places where the truly bizarre, like, uh, what if questions can be explored?
Like, what if things were fundamentally completely different in a way?
How would that twist things, um is, uh, interesting to explore.
It's just very interesting.
It's very hard to explore on a TV budget for live action.
And so animation lets you go there.
We see that in the Marvel What If…?
series being animated is that they can do anything because
they just have to draw it.
Rob: And to varying, to varying success of how, of how far the potential goes.
Or they just go, let's do a little tweak here.
But yeah, the animation really explores it in going, let's
do a full episode of zombies.
Let's do all that type of stuff, so.
Kevin: Yeah.
And, and Lily's speech about the nature of her exploration mission is to me a
pitch for this show to return and to pay off what they've established here.
Um if they truly lean into that and it becomes maybe not so much a Star Trek
comedy, but maybe it still is, but the the show is And the stories are
powered by the truly weird and strange?
I wonder where that could take us.
It could probably take us some really funny places, but it could probably also
take us some really poignant places.
Uh, and every single character from an alternate universe in this episode is
kind of a hint of the kind of stories that we could tell with those tools.
Rob: Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, there's, there's a lot of potential there as long as, um, you know, uh,
everyone is kept on a really, you know, tight leash to explore as far as they
can and not, yeah, it's, stay true to that mission statement of what Lily said.
Um, I particularly like, uh, the title of the Beagle.
Uh, obviously the same name as, um, Charles Darwin's ship
when he explored the Galapagos.
So, uh, nice little hints there.
Always love a good little nugget of an easter egg, whether it's
a Star Trek reference or just a, you know, a nugget from history.
Kevin: The shape of that ship is a nugget from Star Trek.
It is modeled after the USS Enterprise XCV 330 prototype that is sketched in like
pencil drawing form on the wall of the Enterprise NX 01 in Star Trek Enterprise
and on the rec deck in Star Trek The Motion Picture, that, that big set where
the whole crew kind of comes together for an all hands meeting at the start.
Um, there are some drawings of Enterprises past on the wall and one of those
is this ring ship that for the first time we get to see in flight here.
Yeah, it's appeared in three places.
It's also appeared in Admiral Forest's office in, um, I think
Star Trek Into Darkness, the bad admiral in Star Trek Into Darkness.
He's got that whole row of ships, and you know how infamously the big scary ship
at the end is right there on his desk at the beginning, if you're looking for it?
One of the other ships in that row is this same ring ship as
Rob: Yes.
That's it.
It's gorgeous.
Gorgeous.
Yes.
Love the, the ring design of it.
Kevin: Uh, so yeah, not, not, anything bad to say about this episode, I have to say.
They, they knocked it out of the park.
I was, um, I was like, my mouth was hanging open for most of this
at what they've, not only what they've done, the scope of their
ambition, but also what they achieve, like how well it came together.
Rob: The, the comedy, the drama, the science fiction element of it, how they
brought a new way of looking at this.
You know, we literally start off within the first five minutes, Boimler
going, I fucking hate the multiverse.
To then end with, with Alfre Woodard voicing, uh, Sloane going, you know,
this is the potential of what a multiverse, uh, exploration is all about.
Plus you have Harry Kim's mutiny against the evil Harry Kim, who's got two pips.
It's just that it works on all, uh, levels.
And yeah, just, of course, Garak is going to be the lover in a
relationship who outwardly antagonizes his lover because it is fun.
Kevin: Yep.
Rob: He literally says, why are you doing this?
He goes, because it's fun.
That's
Kevin: No, it's not!
Uh, the idea that a hologram would make their, their, um, their
solid partner sleep on the floor, uh, is pretty funny as well.
And I think for me, the height of the episode is T'Pol agreeing that
"big Starfleet nerd" is an accurate description of Jonathan Archer.
Rob: Yes, that's right.
That's right.
And who calls him a big, big, um, Starfleet nerd?
Was it?
Yeah,
Kevin: I think it's
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, That is an accurate
Kevin: Um, yes, T'Pol was great.
You and I were talking off recording about the fact that she asked to be
only credited as Jolene and the, the show runners said, whatever you want,
we're not even going to ask questions.
Rob: Heh heh heh!
Whatever you want, whatever you need, we'll give to you.
I mean, they've, they've pulled some remarkable, uh, rabbits out of the
hat, uh, the Lower Decks people.
What, who they've been able to get back, who they've been able to get on board.
And, I mean, acting is acting, I get that, and actors would love to
do it, but considering some actors have, have given it up, you know?
In the case of some of the, uh, uh, some of the actors have moved on with their
lives and have no reason to come back for, you know, a thankless 20 minute episode of
an animated series for them to come back and be honored in that way and to be seen.
Uh, by the writers and the producers and be going, I want to be a part of
that, especially for characters have been given such derision from the fandom
or the negative feedback for, for, um, you know, for returns like, uh, T'Pol,
um, uh, our, our one name actress, um, is, is, is a really powerful,
uh, way of, um, celebrating Everyone.
I mean, Doctor Who's quite good at that.
They used to do that quite well back in the noughties, uh, early noughties when
they released a lot of the DVDs, uh, and so they do a lot of special features
where they would just find these actors who hadn't done the show in like 30, 40
years, but just, jobbing actor on the set for two or three days, but they're
being interviewed about their life, their career, their connection to Who.
I love this with Star Trek now on some facets, they're embracing the
past and embracing all these bit part players who have contributed to it
in some way or were regulars and have been disrespected, treated poorly,
uh, you know, as seen as just being the eye candy and belittling their
Kevin: I think that's the common thread for the two
characters we've called out here.
Harry Kim and T'Pol are going to be our focus for the rest of this episode, and
that for me, like, you and I agreed we would bring our favorite Harry Kim and
T'Pol episodes, and I don't mind saying I had to watch a lot of Star Trek this
week because it is hard to find good episodes that serve these characters.
These characters were both, in my view, underserved and hard done by
by the series that they starred in.
Rob: I, I, yeah.
Uh, um, I, I found a killer, uh, Harry Kim one.
I think it's the only good Harry Kim one, and we've probably got the same one.
Um, but when it came to T'Pol, I, I've gone with one, but it's not
even, she's not even like the, the main focus in her own story.
Like
Kevin: I'm with you
Rob: Yeah.
So she's sort of like the B plot of a story that should be about her.
Um, it's, it's, it's quite, uh, yeah, it's quite, it's quite hard.
It
Kevin: It's unusual.
Uh, yeah.
So, um, I, I think they were, in some respects, this episode we just
talked about is the best episode for both of these characters.
Rob: I heartily agree.
If T'Pol was written like this, um, for the entire five
seasons of, uh, Enterprise, I
Kevin: My god, she's funny.
She's the dry humor works so
Rob: Yep.
Very much so.
Her relationship with Curzon was amazing, and Curzon going full Klingon, and her
response to that is, I love it, love it.
Kevin: Sodium is not a rich, full life.
Maybe it is for me, damn it!
Uh, yeah, so good.
All right.
So let's take these one at a time.
We'll start with Harry Kim, I think.
Um, do you want to dive deeper into some high level thoughts about Harry Kim?
Or should we jump straight into the episodes?
Rob: Well, I mean, we can touch on it a little bit.
I mean, Harry Kim and connected to that, Garrett Wang, have become
a little bit of a laughingstock within the Star Trek world.
And he's kind of embraced that, and he's embraced that within the
fandom, and he's now loved for it.
And he's been, in many ways, a bridging gap between many of the tensions
within, um, Star Trek cast as well.
Like, he's been there, but, you know, there's famous footage of,
of Jeri Ryan talking about tensions between her and Kate Mulgrew, and
Garrett's there, like, consoling her and being this bridge between, uh,
healing and all this type of stuff.
And he's, of course, doing a podcast, um, about, uh, his time on Voyager,
which seems to be the big thing now.
But there's a lot of debate about, um, you know, seven years they were
in, you know, uh, a different quadrant and not one single promotion at all.
And it's been joked about so many, many times.
Even within Lower Decks, a comedy show, we've got our lead
characters being promoted within, and it only went for five years.
Kevin: Yeah, I'll, I think it's worth at least taking a beat to, to, to like
address that, the rank issue head on.
But to me it's, it's separate or at least maybe just loosely related to the deeper
issue, which is just how this character was used and written in that series.
Rob: Me personally, what I love so much about Deep Space Nine is that every
single character in that lead photo shoot, in that shot of all the cast,
every single character is interesting.
Even, even Sisko's son, Jake's got some really interesting stuff.
Not as high as some of the others, yes, but every single one.
You could go to Kira, you can go to Dax, you can go to Bashir, and they
worked hard to add more to them.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's not that they were interesting is that they worked
to tell interesting stories about
Rob: And they had incredibly talented actors behind each of those roles.
So even if in the early
Kevin: What are you saying, Rob?
What are you saying
Rob: And that's what I'm about to get to, yeah.
Even in the early days, when the characters aren't written well, the
charisma of, uh, you know, of, um, Alexander, of, uh, Terry Farrell,
when their characters weren't written that well at the start, their
charisma and talent oozed along.
Poor old Garrett, he's a lovely human being.
He wouldn't, what we would call one of the best dynamic,
naturalistic, Uh, charismatic actors, and Harry Kim is a very dull
character and I think they realised
Kevin: of the acting, you're saying?
Rob: I think it's a bit of, yeah, it isn't written well and the
actor didn't have enough ability to
Kevin: Yeah, it's a back and forth, right?
Like if the actor is, is charismatic and interesting, it makes writers want to
write stories about them and vice versa.
It goes both ways.
Rob: It's used a lot within Doctor Who as an excuse going, Oh, we've
got such a great actor as the Doctor, but the writing's so bad.
Um, and it's used a lot, especially within modern Doctor Who.
Um, whereas in Star Trek, in anything, it is a balance.
It is a dance that you do within the writing, within
the direction, with the actor.
And the actors will be inspired by the writing, but the writers will also be
inspired, on a regular basis on the TV show, by what the actors bring.
And sadly, um, Garrett didn't bring enough, and the writers didn't bring
enough, so we're left with seven seasons with a character who never really
evolved, never really changed, and was never really given the opportunity to.
And when they gave him little moments here or there, it wasn't enough to springboard.
They got more interested in, ooh, let's bring in a, uh, you know, Seven
of Nine, and that went so well, let's bring in more Borgs and change them up.
Kevin: Okay.
Accepted all of that.
I want to talk about the rank issue for a moment.
I've done some reading and people with military experience who have talked
about this issue, their take, like this, I've read some posts of like, I
served on a submarine sort of thing.
And, if your ship is away from port for a long period of time,
your captain can't promote you.
So the fact that Voyager is lost in the Delta Quadrant goes some of the
way to explaining why some people's ranks would not have changed, even
if they are a senior officer on the bridge in, in, um, Harry Kim's case.
But at least by the end of the series, that's definitely true.
Uh, but the, the take that, uh, I found interesting is what would normally
happen is as soon as you are in contact with port, as soon as, Voyager made
contact with Starfleet, they would transmit all their logs, and the brass
would decide who is owed a promotion.
And like, one of the first transmissions from the Alpha Quadrant back to Voyager
should have been, here is the list of promotions that, uh, you should make.
So that would have been the moment to give Harry Kim his second or third pip, uh,
but it didn't happen, for all the reasons that I think you just talked about.
Rob: Um, thank you for explaining that, because it is the go to gag,
going seven years as an ensign, ha!
But then the justification is they're going, well, they're away from port,
they have no connection, everything kind of freezes at that time, you know, rank
wise, everyone stays kind of the same.
Kevin: Well, let's, let's dive into an episode or two.
I'll be interested to see if we pick the same one.
I grabbed a fairly early one from season two.
Rob: We have not got the same one, because I've grabbed one from season seven.
Kevin: Ooh, that's different again from what I might've guessed.
We've talked before about.
For me, what would be truly my high point for both the actor and the character, and
that's season five, episode six, Timeless.
This is the one where Voyager crashes on the ice planet, and then a future
version of, uh, Harry Kim, who is wracked by guilt about crashing the ship,
comes back to try and change history.
Um, there'll be a link to the Subspace Radio episode where
we talked about that in detail.
Um, but, uh, that one aside, I'm picking one here that to me plays nicely into
this idea of alternate Harrys, uh, that we had in Lower Decks and it's
season two, episode five, Non Sequitur,
Rob: All right.
Kevin: in which Harry wakes up and finds himself on Earth, in San Francisco.
Uh, and he is, uh, living seemingly a charmed life with a fiancee, uh, that
he is about to marry, a swish job at Starfleet designing a new Runabout
with some, some experimental engines.
And, uh, he just, he, he, he can't go along with it because he feels so
guilty about the crew he left behind.
Uh, and he learns like his best friend from the Academy actually
went in his place on Voyager.
Uh, and then later again, he learns that Tom Paris also didn't make it onto Voyager
in this version of events and is a drunk in Marseilles in a, in a little bar there.
Rob: Beats being a prisoner in New Zealand.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Um, yeah, what, what he learns is that, um, that because Harry Kim was not there
on Deep Space Nine to be in the bar with Quark, um, uh, Paris, um, got into a
bar fight and got thrown in Odo's prison cell and missed, missed the boat to
the Delta Quadrant, uh, and got kicked
Rob: That's right.
I do remember that one.
I do remember that story.
Kevin: Yeah.
So, um, it, it is.
It is interesting a bit, I think.
Definitely, Harry Kim is in the spotlight.
He is the star of this episode.
Most of the rest of our cast are absent.
So, so Garrett Wang definitely has to carry the episode here.
Um, it's fun to see that character wrestle with a what if.
It's fun to get to see some parts of his life because I feel like that is
something that really prevented the Harry Kim character from developing is
we know so little about him other than he had a mom and he loves the clarinet.
Um, that's pretty much all we know about the guy.
Even in this episode, there's a point where he like looks around his
office and he's got his diploma on the wall and it says Harry SL Kim.
And to this day, we still don't know what that SL stands for.
Can you think of another, um, main cast character in Star Trek who
we know their middle initial, but we don't know what it stands for.
Rob: Um, we don't know what the D stands for in Odo.
Kevin: Oh, Very good.
Rob: Maybe the L stands for Liberius.
Kevin: But yes, a glimpse of what Harry left behind or what his life would have
been if he didn't get stuck in the Delta Quadrant is tantalizing here as well.
Um, and I feel like just the premise and also getting to visit future San
Francisco, those two things are worth signing up for here, but the episode is
maybe not as strong as I would like if I were going to say best Harry Kim episodes.
Like, the writing, I feel like, is not quite there.
A lot of the people around Harry Kim are behaving a little weird.
Like, he is clearly suffering some mental anguish and confusion.
And the people around him are like, what's wrong with you?
Pull yourself together.
He gets as far as being In a presentation at Starfleet headquarters
to an Admiral and choking in that situation, uh, and even then he
says, I need to go to see a doctor.
And everyone kind of just like walks out of the room.
His best friend supposedly says, you better be dying and then leaves.
And just the, the reactions don't quite add up as far as what people who
ostensibly care about you or even your professional colleagues would do if you
were having what to outward appearances would be a complete mental breakdown.
Rob: Very much late 90s version of the future.
We're going,
Kevin: Yeah, there's some big leaps in logic that, that are necessary
for the plot here that, uh, it could have used another pass.
Rob: Yes, we've made many jumps forward within the last two decades
with mental health awareness.
So that late 90s version of the future going, Oh, that's still, that's very much
as if it's still like original series, Those Old Scientists type era dealing
with just, you know, snap out of it.
Kevin: Yeah, there, uh, there are a few versions of the story, the
origin story for this episode.
And I've read a couple of them and some of them are quite
uncharitable towards the actor.
Like I think the uncharitable version is Garrett Wang here at the start of
the second season of Voyager went to the producers and said, are you ever going to
do anything interesting with my character, and like kind of threw a tantrum and this
is the episode they wrote to appease him.
The kinder version of events that rings more true to me is that at the start
of season two, the producers had a one on one meeting with all the main actors
and said, how's it going with you?
Is there, do you have any ideas for us?
And Garrett basically said, well, uh, I would love to do some action.
I would love to get the girl.
I would love a story that, that expands on my character a bit.
And they said we hear you and this was their first attempt
at responding to that feedback.
Uh, that, that feels like what happened here, but nevertheless,
it, like, it's shaky.
It's shaky.
Yeah.
Rob: It's, it's such a, not a tragedy, but it's such a disappointment that this
carries on for the entire seven seasons.
It's always quite, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll try.
Oh, it doesn't really spark us.
Let's get distra and they get distracted by other characters, easier
characters, I guess, to write, more charismatic, Um, invested actors.
I mean, it's quite, you know, either way, it's, it doesn't
paint a very good picture.
Like, Garrett going, uh, action, girl, more time?
Whereas a lot of actors go in going, I want specifically, let's focus on this.
How about this?
And then it's a collaboration thing.
Um, so yeah, it's, yeah, it's shaky all the way through.
Dear old, uh, Harry Kim does, uh, doesn't do himself any favors from
an actor or character point of view.
Kevin: He was much, much stronger in Timeless in season five, as I mentioned,
the other one that came to mind was season three, episode three, The Chute
where he and Paris are stuck in a prison together with implants in their
heads, driving them slowly insane.
And like they, they come to blows and I get choked up at the end of that
episode as the two of them kind of like, uh, Paris feels indebted to Harry for
his, for his life, uh, whereas, uh, Harry is racked by guilt for almost
killing his, his friend, Tom Paris.
And like that, that moment and the acting that leads up to it does
work for me, which I think is a testament to the performance there,
but it is more of a two hander than a Harry focused episode for me.
Rob: Yeah, and I mean, that's what he pretty much became.
He, and we'll talk about that a little bit in my episode, he
is the sidekick to Tom Paris.
And, um, they said like, where can we put him at the start?
He's paired, it never really is a partnership, it is a,
sidekick lead type of feel.
I've always felt that.
And I can see the bond between the two actors because they're both doing
this podcast together about their time on Voyager, which is amazing.
I love seeing that.
Whether that, you know, chemistry that they have off screen is shown
on screen isn't as, I think their chemistry off screen is stronger than
what we really get on, on screen.
But, um, yeah, it's a, like, a disservice to Kim that he was seen
more as the sidekick to Paris as opposed to an equal partnership.
Kevin: Well, let's talk about yours.
Rob: Uh, we're going Season 7, Episode 8, Nightingale,
Kevin: Right near the end.
Oh, yes.
Nightingale.
Very
Rob: directed by the great LeVar Burton.
So, um, so the main thrust of it is, uh, Kim's in the Delta Flyer with
Seven and Neelix, uh, as Voyager is, um, stranded on a planet, really, just
getting some much needed repairs, uh, Torres has been complaining for ages
that we need to stop and fix everything and it's only meant to be a couple of
days and it's going to be much longer because Torres wants everything fixed.
Kim, Seven and, uh, um, uh, Neelix are looking uh, near a nebula for
certain materials that they can siphon and then they get caught up in a, a
skirmish between some battleships, uh, attacking a defenseless ship that's
like got a faulty, uh, clone device.
Um.
And basically Kim sides with one and representatives from the other culture,
sort of like, do a connection with Janeway and Voyager on the, on the, on the planet.
Hence, uh, prime directives and all that type of stuff is messed up, um,
and, but Kim stands strong going, no, I've made, uh, a connection to this,
this is humanitarian mission, they're not, the only people surviving on this
ship aren't, um, pilots or officers, these are all civilians, it's a
humanitarian mission to get them home.
Um, and so, he, he wants this, he wants this as his, uh, real first command.
And even after seven years, which he says, I've been in the ensign seven years
and she goes, Oh, you're, Oh, you're bucking for in a promotion, are you?
Goes that's ambitious of you.
And you go, it's been seven years, woman, come on.
Um, and so, yes, as the story develops, um, the truth comes out,
Kim, uh, takes on, and is given the role of captain aboard the ship.
He names the ship Nightingale, after Florence Nightingale, obviously, and
starts to train up and teach, and then, with Seven's observation, who's sent
to observe him and keep an eye on him and support him, that he's more of a
doer than a shower, and, or getting them to do, look after themselves.
Um, and then there's some deceit in the ranks and Kim finds out that,
uh, it's not a humanitarian mission.
They're trying to save the cloaking device that was created by one of the
people on the ship and they need to get it back because they've been oppressed
by the other culture for three years.
So, it's Kim dealing with loss, sacrifice, um, how he, what it is
meant to be as a captain of a ship and getting, uh, stone cold truth from,
uh, Neelix and also, uh, Seven of Nine about what it is to be a leader.
Kevin: It's interesting, isn't it, that both, uh, unless I'm mistaken,
neither Neelix nor Seven of Nine have a rank, and so, technically,
Ensign Kim outranks both of
Rob: Yes, he does.
Yeah, and that's what that's why Seven of Nine goes on the mission.
Kevin: Yeah, although Seven, you might say, uh, seems a more forceful presence
in any room than poor Harry Kim.
Um, if you were to kind of pick em out of the lineup, she'd be the natural captain,
as we have seen in Star Trek Picard.
Um, but, uh, but yeah, it must be an interesting dynamic with
him giving the orders here.
Rob: Yeah, so there's a B plot here as well about Um, uh, one of the, uh,
Borg youth, Icheb, uh, oh, poor Icheb.
Kevin: Poor
Rob: Poor Icheb.
Um, Reading the signals wrong, thinking B'Elanna's got the hots for him,
and that Paris wants to challenge him to a physical confrontation.
It doesn't really go anywhere, it doesn't really do anything, ultimately.
Um, the main story is, uh, Harry Kim getting, uh, You know,
working for towards his command.
Kevin: So, I have not seen this episode in years.
I don't remember it well.
I want to ask, to what extent is Harry's inexperience a plot point here?
Like, is it, is it that he takes command and he's ready for it and
we get to see Harry in command?
Or is it that he thinks he's ready, but he isn't and that lesson is
what he learns in this episode?
Rob: Yes, I mean, he does well and he inspires.
Um, there's one of the only surviving officers, he teaches him about Federation
and about, you know, their way of doing things and teaches him how to,
you know, pilot the ship and all this type of stuff and all those skills.
However, he has not enough experience to trust the people of the ship
to take care of themselves.
And you can see the frustration of the crew going, well, he's doing everything.
Kevin: Gotta learn to delegate.
Gotta learn to delegate.
Yeah.
That's, that's.
Lifting the veil for a moment, Rob.
That's my leadership journey at the moment, is to learn how
to be a little more hands off.
Rob: I've had to learn that many, many times.
Uh, sometimes, you know, take the pressure off me.
Uh, and also, um, give more responsibility to people who are more than willing to
just go, Oh, no, Rob will do everything.
Kevin: Mm.
Rob: Yeah, it's, it's, it actually is a good episode for Kim, for
Harry Kim, to realize his faults and how he learns from that.
There's a, there's a loss on the ship when they're attacked one time
and one of the, the, uh, native crew members is, is killed due
Kevin: Oh, wow.
First,
Rob: due to the, Yeah, due to one of the, um, not being told the whole truth about
why, you know, they just thought it was a humanitarian mission and then one of the
scientists, um, played by the brilliant Ron Glass from, uh, Firefly, Serenity,
and back in the day, Barney Miller, he was in Barney Miller, great actor, sadly
passed away a couple of years ago, um, um,
So he learns about, you know, Seven is, is hurt within that situation, and then
they kind of taken away their power and responsibility, but he steps up
and goes, no, I need to learn from this and, and make this mission successful.
He does a really clever way to maneuver out of the situation to
save the rest of the crew and to save the cloaking device or the ship.
Um, and he realizes he's not ready yet, but he's, he's, uh,
excited about moving forward.
So that's that's how it ends with him going.
I'm not ready to be captain yet, but I will one day.
Kevin: Yeah, I got a taste and I still want it.
Rob: Yeah.
And so that's actually, you know, he's he's not that annoying.
And you know, it's and his
Kevin: Does the performance, like, you know, this is, this is season seven.
It's probably as good as it ever got.
Like,
Rob: Yeah, he's very, he's very comfortable on set.
He knows how to move as an actor from an acting point of view, watching.
He knows how to find his light to use a theater term.
He knows how to hit the tone right for the screen performance that he's doing.
He's just doesn't have that extra oomph.
There's some really awkward moments like this.
It's really awkward moments when he finally sees, uh, Tom Paris
and Paris is going, Hey, you're going on this mission without me.
Well, I can't take anyone higher than me.
And you're like, there's a woman, isn't it?
It's a woman.
There's a woman on there that you don't want me to, you know, know about.
And it's so forced the two of them.
And he does that whole thing.
It's like for years, you know, you play Captain Proton and I play
Bucky or whatever the sidekick is.
I want to play
Kevin: Yeah.
So they're self aware.
There's some credit to be given there, but it's still, it's still the
Rob: Yeah, it's, it's, for me, I was surprised how much I liked it, but
I could still see the cogs working in, uh, um, Garrett Wang's mind.
Kevin: Just to reiterate, I feel like it really is twofold, the
failure of this character here.
Like my favorite characters, not just in Star Trek, but in anything, are where you
can see the actor, uh, saying and behaving one way, but thinking something else.
Like there's a second layer there.
You can, you can see their inner world as well as their outer world.
And, uh, I struggle to find occasions where I can, I saw Harry's inner world
as distinct from his outer world, but it's because the character was
never written deeply enough to give the actor an inner world to play.
Rob: Exactly.
Exactly right.
It's, yeah, it's, yeah.
Um.
It's a frustrating thing to see.
All of it was flooding back while I was watching it going, oh, that's
why I got so frustrated watching Voyager back to back when I first
did all seven seasons back to back.
I enjoyed it, especially because the mistakes he made are mistakes
that any of us would make in that situation, and him learning from
that, uh, was, was quite exciting, but still, still quite surface level.
Kevin: Well, yes, I think he went out on a high here in Lower
Decks with the line Nice try!
I'm Harry effing Kim and you don't get to order me around!
Boom.
Rob: A very, very good way to sign off on a running gag within Lower Decks
and within the fandom for a long time.
Kevin: Yeah, let's talk about T'Pol.
Rob: Yeah, this one was tricky going into the world, we have delved into
the world of Enterprise before.
Um, and as you said, you found it quite a struggle to find something
T'Pol focused that is all about T'Pol and is actually good for
Kevin: I, I can't blame the actor I get the impression just cuz she was cast as
the ingenue and at the time where I was watch, watching this first run, I did not
hear "Jolene Blalock famous from X", it was, "and introducing Jolene Blalock,"
and so the impression I got is she came in relatively inexperienced, but either the
training or the raw talent was definitely there because she has a presence on
screen, she has gravitas, and so the, the character really worked for me.
I, compared to what we were just saying about Harry Kim, I bought that
this character has an inner life at all times, and it, it, it was rich.
Unfortunately, I think the plots did not serve this character.
Um, also the fact that the character came in as a high status, grumpy
Vulcan, left them very little to go.
She, she, they had to kind of backfill vulnerability into this character in
order to give her something to work with.
And unfortunately, the forms of vulnerability that they came up with
were very stereotypical, um, you know, sex object 1990s television, of
they were all will she won't she with Archer will she won't she with Tucker.
Um, she, she had the, the plot line around the forced, uh, mind meld
that caused her to have emotions.
And that was at least interesting in, in, as a, as a depth for the character.
But, um, but yeah, it, it rarely felt like, uh, T'Pol was in the spotlight
and even when she was, the stories seemed very much about what the
men around her were doing about her vulnerability than giving her agency.
Rob: Yeah, I mean, I haven't gone through all Enterprise.
The most I've seen of Enterprises through this podcast.
Um, and so, but yeah, it's been a sad side of the episodes I've seen
of going, yeah, there's so much potential not really explored.
The episode I have chosen, there's, you know, moments of it, but that's
the thing, whether it's a seven season run or a five season run cut
short or a four season run cut short,
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: It's so disappointing if you've only got four seasons, but there's
only moments of potential, you know
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: wrong.
Kevin: I think at the, when this character's was working at her best,
um, what I might compare her to is the Dana Scully in the X Files.
She often operated as the skeptic.
She would be the one who says the Vulcan Science Academy is determined
that the time travel is impossible.
And so that thing of our human characters witness something, and then T'Pol
goes, um, I think you imagined it.
Like that dynamic, at least, was fun in the same way that Dana Scully is fun
because she never sees what Fox Mulder sees and always asks for the evidence.
Um, so, so that worked, but, uh, yeah, I, I picked a, I've got a couple of
episodes here because I anticipate that we may have landed on the same one.
Um, so.
I might, I might start with the strongest one for me that I could find
this week, which is season two, episode 14, Stigma, which is a bit of a sequel
to season one, episode 17, Fusion.
I mentioned this storyline before.
In Fusion, she encounters a ship full of Vulcans who are practicing the, um, this,
the stigmatized practice of mind melds.
At this point in the Star Trek timeline, mind melds are taboo in Vulcan culture,
but there is a undesirable subclass that, uh, that experiments with them.
And there is a effectively sexually transmitted disease that comes out
of that called Pa'nar syndrome.
And so it's a very unsubtle allegory for the HIV AIDS epidemic and
how the sufferers of that were stigmatized because of their presumed
association with homosexual culture.
Um, so here in Stigma, the second episode of this kind of, um, two parter at a
distance, um, the treatments that Phlox is devising for her to control the symptoms
of Pa'nar Syndrome that have resulted from the forced mind meld that she underwent
in the previous episode, those treatments have, are losing their effectiveness
and, uh, Phlox wants to ask some Vulcan doctors at the, at the conference
they're attending for the latest research on Pa'nar Syndrome from Vulcan.
And, T'Pol is very reluctant to go along with this because she's like, I
don't want anyone to know I have this.
It's very stigmatized.
Um, I'll, I'll lose my position, um, on Enterprise.
But Phlox says, don't worry, I can keep it a secret.
I will say that I'm asking for research because we have a very
similar malady in Denobulan culture.
And I have a friend back home, who could really use anything
the Vulcans know about this.
Um, he does his best, but the Vulcans see right through his request.
And, uh, they, uh, they manage to discover that T'Pol is suffering from this.
And the rest of this episode plays out almost like a courtroom drama
where T'Pol is persecuted for the, the illness that she has.
Um, and she is.
told effectively that if you claim that you were forced,
then all of this goes away.
But she does not want to claim that she was forced, because that is, uh,
basically condoning the prejudice against, uh, these people who, who just
uh, love or communicate in a different way than, uh, what is commonly accepted
in Vulcan culture at a, at the time.
There, there are several scenes where there are two or three men around
T'Pol saying, just say you were forced.
And she says, no.
And there is, you know, just in that one decision is that agency that I
am so often lacking from T'Pol and she feels so strong in that moment.
It is, um, yeah, it's a beautiful thing for the character and
for the actor to get to play.
Um, so yeah, I do love it, but it is, I mean, it is conspicuous for
how rarely this which is the shame.
Rob: Yeah.
I mean, and that's what we love about sci fi.
We love hitting heavy, relevant, you know, contemporary issues, um, in,
under the guise of, uh, of science fiction and, and fantastical situations.
The Twilight Zone, you know, pioneered that back in the late
fifties, early sixties, obviously.
Um, but yeah, to, to see that played out in, in the Star Trek world, so
far in the past of what we know, is a fascinating concept to go, this thing that
is commonplace, it was actually shunned and outlawed, and to, Connect that with
a metaphor of something as tragic and, um, you know, horrifying and still in
recent memory of the, the AIDS crisis of the 80s is, um, you know, powerful stuff.
And it's a shame that that, you know, again, it's the enterprise folly,
folly of going, there's a moment, there's this moment of potential, it
could be, oh, okay, it's dropping.
Oh, we dropped
Kevin: But yeah, very, very good episode treating like using that Star
Trek allegory mechanism to talk about a real social issue at the time.
So, and, and the episode works, the performances are really good.
It is compelling from beginning to end.
It's tense.
The tension in this episode really just is like T'Pol's secret.
Will it, will it get out?
Will her privacy be invaded?
And that, that character driven tension really works here.
Um, so yeah, I, I think it's a, it's a great two parter,
the Fusion followed by Stigma.
Rob: Over two seasons, so from season one and then into season two, not back to
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Well, I jumped ahead to, uh, season four, episode
three, um, so it's Home, so I
Kevin: Ah, yes, I did watch Home this
Rob: Yeah, so I thought that this would be a good one.
I was wrong.
So for me, having not watched any of season three, I'm aware of the season
three arc, and that all focuses on the, the, the Xindi, it's all about
the Xindi coming in, and they're a threat to the Federation, and all this
type of stuff of, you know, before the Federation of the Federation.
Um, so this kicks in, episode three starts off with them, the valiant crew of the
Enterprise coming in and they've saved the Earth, uh, and all that type of stuff.
And so I'm missing a whole season worth of arcs and there's
all this trauma and issues and
Kevin: Yeah, it's very much like, uh, the TNG episode Family after, after the trauma
of best of both worlds where Picard is assimilated and he returns home to his
family vineyard and tries to reconcile with his brother, but he is so damaged.
And like, grappling with that damage, admitting it to themself
and starting to move past it is the purpose of that episode.
And that's, especially for Archer, what's going on here.
But there's this whole parallel story with Trip and T'Pol going to Vulcan.
Rob: Yeah, so it's sort of like there's three stories happening.
So there's Archer dealing with the trauma of what he's gone through,
uh, and going rock climbing.
Um, you've got, uh, the xenophobia developing within,
uh, Earth culture at the moment.
So if you are an alien, you are, you know, you need to leave.
And so, like, the Vulcan's embassy is closed off and they're not leaving.
Um, so Phlox is out at the bar, uh, drinking with a couple of, you know, with
a couple of the Enterprise crew and the humans, yeah, and they don't, not happy
at all, um, and gets into a fight, and we get the whole Phlox blowfish effect.
Um, but yeah, so then the story called home is relating to, you know, many
different characters, but T'Pol goes back to Vulcan to spend time with her
mum, and bring Trip along as well.
Um, and there are moments, I do see moments of, especially the scenes
with T'Pol, with the brilliant, the great Joanna Cassidy, who I've already
talked about before in a previous episode, when we talked about previous
episodes of Enterprise that she was in.
Great.
She does a great job.
And she brings a really good presence.
Kevin: The scenes between her and Trip Tucker actually work really well for me in
this episode with Trip and they're talking about T'Pol and, um, seeing her be a
mother apart from the tension that exists between her and her daughter when they're
face to face is, is really kind of sweet.
Rob: I do think she brings, uh, a bit out of, uh, T'Pol as well.
Her performance does improve slightly working with someone who's such a good
actor and such a giving actor as well.
Um, but again, she's sidelined in this, you know, it's all about other people
talking about her, and then the, you know, the would be fiancé comes in as well.
Um, so it's kind of, uh, I bummed out.
I thought I'd pick one that would be good for her.
Going home.
Oh, great.
Family tension and stuff.
I go, oh, it's all about everybody else except T'Pol.
Kevin: Yeah, there's more T'Pol stuff in season four.
I mean, there's the whole, there's The Forge trilogy where she gets involved
with the, the, uh, descendants of, or the followers of Surak and her
mom actually dies in that plot line.
Rob: That's, yeah, we did, we did review that one.
I have, did that one where, where Cassidy's character's killed off.
Kevin: So there's definitely more to come, but yeah, the, the tragic ending of
this of her, like, the, the cut, the cut to credits is especially brutal here at
the end when it's like, so is she going to go through with this sham marriage?
Yes, she is.
The end.
It's like, whoa, they're going to leave us on a low.
That Star Trek rarely has the confidence to do that.
And, um, I mean, if nothing else, I have to get, give them
credit for the swing there.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, um, uh, unlike the episodes you have, uh, focused on, yeah, there's
not much here for T'Pol to do.
And she really is, uh, hamstrung as a, uh, character and as an actor.
Kevin: Yeah, she, she is at turns, um, protesting and then passively
going along with events here and she never quite has the agency that, that
I think the story leads us to crave and then for effect does not give us.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: It withholds it.
But the thing is, I don't, maybe I'm wrong and if I rewatched it, it would
be there in that Vulcan trilogy, but from my memory at least is even past
the low end of this episode, she never quite comes back and reclaims that.
Her, her husband Koss eventually does, um, give her her freedom.
But it's mostly just because he, he sees that she, her life has nothing
to do with him and he's given one opportunity to help her and, uh,
and it is effectively to let her go.
And so as a nice guy, he does it.
Um, but it, it, never quite feels like T'Pol kind of claiming her agency
and making a decision for herself.
Rob: And it does seem to be a constant thing within the show when
she ever, you know, does have those moments of inspirational potential
of agency taken away snuffed out pretty quickly, which is a shame.
So
Kevin: Related, the other one I thought you might have brought was
season three, episode eight, Twilight.
That is during the Xindi arc and they're exploring the Expanse there.
Um, and, uh, this is a beautiful kind of break from that.
In it, the the ship is, uh, encounters like a subspace anomaly that infects
puts like, um, subspace microbes in Archer's brain and prevents
him from forming new memories.
And then we get to jump into Archer's future as he can no longer
be captain of the Enterprise.
The Xindi mission fails and Earth is destroyed.
And then he wakes up one morning and he is living on Ceti Alpha V, which
is Khan's planet, um, with T'Pol in his kitchen, and he has gray hair
and T'Pol is basically his full time carer, and every morning he wakes up
and she has to explain to him what has happened over the past 12 years of his
Rob: It's Star Trek version of 50 First Dates.
Kevin: That's right.
Uh, and it is, it is sweet.
It is, um, it is an interesting turn for T'Pol, but it's also kind of tragic
that uh, like, this thing that happens to Archer basically ends T'Pol's career
and future because she gives it all up to be his carer, um, is, is both
sweet and tragic and, um, interesting.
But once again, this episode is not about T'Pol.
T'Pol has an interesting place in it, has a couple of nice speeches, but, um, but
ultimately is not her story to act in,
Rob: yeah
Kevin: which is, which is the forever story with T'Pol.
So, uh, it was lovely to see her as first officer of the, Anaximander
here in, uh, in Fissure Quest.
And um, here's to more T'Pol episodes, if she's willing
Rob: She was stellar.
Yeah, bring her back.
You can, yeah, just be your first letter if you want to
be credited as just J. Do it.
Kevin: Hm-hm-hm-hm…
Rob: to see more of you.
Um, so yeah, bit of a, bit of a downbeat ending, with a downbeat ending of an
episode where we, the potential of, uh, T'Pol was never really realized, so thank
you Lower Decks for giving us a little taste of that for at least 22 minutes.
Kevin: Yes, well, we'll make it up next week with the grand finale of Lower Decks.
Rob: want to say goodbye!
Don't want to
Kevin: We've got some fun stuff to talk about.
Rob: Very much so.
Looking forward to it.
Even though I don't want to say goodbye, I am looking forward
to talking about that episode.