WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Jethro Jones: Welcome to a Vision for Learning on the Be Podcast Network. 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:05.310 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:05.370 --> 00:00:08.430 You can find me on all the socials at Jethro Jones. 00:00:08.760 --> 00:00:14.335 I'm very excited to have on the podcast today, nick Pot Kki, who is the, writer of 00:00:14.335 --> 00:00:17.375 the Substack, that is called Educating ai. 00:00:17.435 --> 00:00:21.835 You can find links to that in the show notes at, a vision for learning.com. 00:00:22.015 --> 00:00:27.235 He's an AI literacy consultant, a language arts teacher, academic researcher in AI 00:00:27.235 --> 00:00:29.875 linguistics rhetoric and Instruction. 00:00:30.295 --> 00:00:33.325 And he's worked in both public and private settings with students from 00:00:33.325 --> 00:00:34.555 middle school to graduate school. 00:00:35.160 --> 00:00:37.950 He is got a wealth of knowledge about these various institutional 00:00:37.950 --> 00:00:41.520 spaces and student social, emotional, and academic development across 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:47.100 this age range, as it relates to developing responsive AI systems. 00:00:47.580 --> 00:00:50.070 So definitely a very interesting conversation. 00:00:50.075 --> 00:00:51.900 Nick, welcome to a Vision for Learning. 00:00:51.905 --> 00:00:52.980 So great to have you here. 00:00:53.900 --> 00:00:54.320 Nick Potkalitsky: Thanks. 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:58.710 Jethro Jones: So what is the most valuable thing people are gonna 00:00:58.710 --> 00:01:00.720 get from our conversation today? 00:01:02.305 --> 00:01:07.195 Nick Potkalitsky: I think the take, taking the next steps into this AI 00:01:07.225 --> 00:01:12.559 space, that we're creating for students is gonna be forged by building, 00:01:12.914 --> 00:01:17.834 greater trust with our students, making our AI practices more, more 00:01:17.834 --> 00:01:20.684 transparent and working alongside them. 00:01:21.204 --> 00:01:25.944 to show them that this is a useful tool, but it will never 00:01:25.944 --> 00:01:27.324 replace their own thinking. 00:01:28.349 --> 00:01:29.489 Jethro Jones: Oh, so good. 00:01:29.709 --> 00:01:30.819 I'll totally second that. 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.689 And I think the thing that people should really hang on for is where we start 00:01:34.689 --> 00:01:39.699 talking about the criteria that we can use to evaluate the use of AI tools 00:01:39.699 --> 00:01:41.079 and whether or not it's going to be. 00:01:41.619 --> 00:01:44.739 An effective and worthwhile thing for them to do. 00:01:45.279 --> 00:01:49.269 so on this show, a vision for learning, we talk about the future of 00:01:49.269 --> 00:01:51.009 education, what it's gonna look like. 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.589 we've been talking a lot about the Apple Vision Pro because that's what has been 00:01:55.589 --> 00:02:01.289 released recently, but I'm excited today to talk all about AI and how it works. 00:02:01.289 --> 00:02:05.349 And I look forward to you, hearing this conversation, and we'll get to that 00:02:05.349 --> 00:02:07.509 conversation with Nick in just a moment. 00:02:11.395 --> 00:02:16.075 Nick, I think a good place to start out is talking about the idea of plagiarism. 00:02:16.505 --> 00:02:22.085 it's still something that people are worried about and are still feeling stress 00:02:22.085 --> 00:02:28.135 about and feeling like it's, that's the thing we need to worry about with ai 00:02:28.135 --> 00:02:32.485 and I think it is really down at the bottom of the barrel of things that we. 00:02:33.100 --> 00:02:35.140 Actually need to worry about it. 00:02:35.500 --> 00:02:38.710 To me right now, plagiarism is no different than plagiarism has always 00:02:38.710 --> 00:02:41.980 been, except that it's a lot easier and that's the only difference. 00:02:42.260 --> 00:02:44.000 kids are still gonna be motivated to do it. 00:02:44.330 --> 00:02:46.640 Kids are still gonna want to do it, to get out of hard work. 00:02:46.920 --> 00:02:47.610 that's all the issue. 00:02:47.610 --> 00:02:51.180 Where are you coming down on the idea of AI and plagiarism right now? 00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:59.250 Nick Potkalitsky: throughout this sort of crisis as it's been, built 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:03.690 up to be, we have to maintain, the human connection with our students. 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:07.075 That has to be held up as priority number one. 00:03:07.825 --> 00:03:11.725 That's the criteria that we have to measure any sort of intervention against. 00:03:12.025 --> 00:03:16.945 So I must admit, once the AI generated papers started rolling 00:03:16.945 --> 00:03:23.295 in last spring, was definitely tempted to resort to ai detectors. 00:03:23.345 --> 00:03:28.575 but after, quickly doing research, I realized just how, inefficient 00:03:28.575 --> 00:03:29.955 and ineffective they were. 00:03:30.555 --> 00:03:35.325 In particular was impressed by a post by Alberto Romero, late in the summer 00:03:35.330 --> 00:03:39.815 of 20, when he was talking about how these detectors introduced sort of a 00:03:39.815 --> 00:03:42.335 surveillance culture into our classrooms. 00:03:43.085 --> 00:03:45.450 And that's where, that was the tipping point for me. 00:03:45.500 --> 00:03:50.580 when I decided that I had to really change the way that I was teaching, I had 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:55.950 to start to think about, If I was gonna continue to lean into, into long form 00:03:55.950 --> 00:04:01.720 essays as a English teacher, then I had to, start to structure them differently. 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:05.410 I had to collect them more incrementally. 00:04:05.980 --> 00:04:10.340 I had to open up, the essays to more AI in integrated processes. 00:04:11.450 --> 00:04:15.745 And make that part of the workflow, because, we have to adapt to 00:04:15.865 --> 00:04:19.845 the conditions on the ground, I think, as opposed to, just 00:04:19.845 --> 00:04:22.065 holding onto the mythical past. 00:04:22.165 --> 00:04:26.545 so yeah, I like the way that you have framed it as it's a leveling 00:04:26.605 --> 00:04:28.715 that this is, it's all plagiarism. 00:04:29.255 --> 00:04:32.015 we need to start with those conversations as. 00:04:33.495 --> 00:04:38.345 statistical print printouts, which, if you go down that road, you'll very 00:04:38.345 --> 00:04:43.415 quickly, your students will have their own statistical printouts to show you that 00:04:43.415 --> 00:04:46.205 what they're doing isn't AI generated. 00:04:46.205 --> 00:04:50.590 So it's it's just you're, you go into that Cold war mentality and 00:04:50.590 --> 00:04:52.960 then inevitably nobody's learning. 00:04:53.140 --> 00:04:54.250 there's no trust. 00:04:55.990 --> 00:05:00.800 There's no enthusiasm in the classroom, and you get to the point where you're 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:02.830 just wondering, what are we doing here? 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:04.700 it's definitely not education. 00:05:04.850 --> 00:05:06.805 So that's where I'm at. 00:05:06.905 --> 00:05:07.685 Jethro Jones: So Nick. 00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:15.310 Tell me about, about your idea of how you're changing your teaching as you're 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:19.090 focused on integrating AI more now. 00:05:19.145 --> 00:05:20.195 what does that look like? 00:05:20.295 --> 00:05:24.705 there, there's the idea that you don't, Have students take home and write essays 00:05:24.705 --> 00:05:30.615 solely at home, and that's, that would be like an obvious, easy first response. 00:05:30.615 --> 00:05:34.635 But what else does that look like where you're actually integrating 00:05:35.085 --> 00:05:37.755 AI work into your kids' work? 00:05:39.465 --> 00:05:44.135 Nick Potkalitsky: That's a great question and for me it's, there's a answer to. 00:05:45.590 --> 00:05:50.360 Because, as of right now, we realistically don't have a lot of 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:56.820 evidence as to the impact of, fully rolling out AI processes into, in 00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:58.710 my case, like a writing curriculum. 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:01.440 So one of the things that I'm interested. 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:10.420 What's really the impact on like basic core, writing and 00:06:10.420 --> 00:06:12.070 communicative literacies? 00:06:12.230 --> 00:06:15.090 that's my core research question right now. 00:06:15.190 --> 00:06:19.475 so we're entering into sort of an experimental space, I am hesitant 00:06:19.475 --> 00:06:24.525 to go all in the sense of having a fully integrated AI classroom. 00:06:25.045 --> 00:06:27.925 I know that some teachers are doing that and I'm glad that 00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:31.705 they are doing it because I'm learning from their experiences. 00:06:31.710 --> 00:06:36.610 But I'm running sort of two parallel tracks within my class where. 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:42.760 There are times where, we are still just working, in a very traditional 00:06:42.760 --> 00:06:50.490 way, just generating, generating ideas without, using ai, tools, x and E. 00:06:50.490 --> 00:06:54.390 Hello, for instance, just coming up with those ideas from scratch. 00:06:55.335 --> 00:06:58.160 I think, post pandemic kids really need that. 00:06:58.270 --> 00:07:03.340 because like throughout the pandemic, they had so many assistive tools that 00:07:03.340 --> 00:07:07.795 were bumping them in terms of here, do this next thing, do this next thing. 00:07:07.795 --> 00:07:11.545 particularly those two years when they were mostly on screens. 00:07:12.065 --> 00:07:14.775 so we have to, I'm finding that we have to. 00:07:15.885 --> 00:07:22.055 Find ways within the curriculum to, to create those x ni, hello skills. 00:07:22.135 --> 00:07:23.965 at the same time the, yeah. 00:07:24.065 --> 00:07:25.865 Jethro Jones: and Nick, the other part of that is that. 00:07:26.735 --> 00:07:31.775 All these kids who were in middle school or beginning high school when the pandemic 00:07:31.775 --> 00:07:33.995 hit, I guess middle school and lower now. 00:07:34.055 --> 00:07:36.080 'cause it's already 20, 24 time flies. 00:07:36.080 --> 00:07:42.140 But we basically told these kids that everything was made up and the school 00:07:42.140 --> 00:07:46.190 didn't really matter because we canceled it so fast across the whole country. 00:07:46.570 --> 00:07:49.240 and so now they're like, does this really matter? 00:07:49.570 --> 00:07:52.780 Do I really need to do my own thinking here or. 00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:57.460 Because if something happens, I know you can just freeze my grades and 00:07:57.460 --> 00:08:01.570 wipe away everything, and we don't have to take tests this one year. 00:08:01.570 --> 00:08:06.940 And like we sent a very strong message to them that we can just 00:08:06.945 --> 00:08:09.640 cancel school at the drop of a hat. 00:08:09.790 --> 00:08:11.770 and a lot of people don't tear me say that, but that's 00:08:11.775 --> 00:08:13.145 the reality of what we did. 00:08:13.820 --> 00:08:16.790 Nick Potkalitsky: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and we're. 00:08:17.375 --> 00:08:22.955 We're continuing to see the effects of it in terms of enthusiasm and engagement. 00:08:23.615 --> 00:08:27.480 It's almost as if my students are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. 00:08:27.690 --> 00:08:29.280 Jethro Jones: The next thing that's gonna cancel it. 00:08:29.490 --> 00:08:29.820 Yeah. 00:08:29.955 --> 00:08:35.085 Nick Potkalitsky: yeah, and then, AI comes along and it's a tool that. 00:08:36.985 --> 00:08:40.245 manifest a lot of these processes that they're working 00:08:40.245 --> 00:08:42.985 so hard to, learn and master. 00:08:43.495 --> 00:08:48.180 and you, I can imagine they're just wondering, so where are they in the 00:08:48.180 --> 00:08:51.200 middle of this, the middle of this on. 00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:57.470 not necessarily having the stamina to do things from scratch 00:08:57.470 --> 00:09:01.130 and then having technologies that can do them effortlessly. 00:09:01.640 --> 00:09:06.390 And we're we're walking a tightrope in the classrooms right now. 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.245 and I see, in, in school spaces. 00:09:10.145 --> 00:09:18.425 One, one method is to, ignore the, these AI tools, and just kind of, just lean 00:09:18.425 --> 00:09:24.265 into the hard work, the, the struggle, make everything as, as hard as possible. 00:09:24.875 --> 00:09:30.945 every, brainstorming has to be, just pulling up all of the ideas from yourself. 00:09:31.045 --> 00:09:34.715 And, our kids are really struggling with that kind of work. 00:09:34.715 --> 00:09:41.110 And so I'm trying to meet them, I'm trying to meet them, in, maybe 20% of 00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:44.590 the time with some AI responsive lessons. 00:09:44.690 --> 00:09:46.565 so to make it a little bit more concrete. 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:51.940 So we're working on an essay on, west Moore's. 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:52.170 great. 00:09:53.445 --> 00:10:00.725 Great book, the other West Moore, and it's a, it's an, eighth or ninth grade classic. 00:10:00.775 --> 00:10:05.165 so a ya version of, the, a longer piece that he did. 00:10:05.165 --> 00:10:09.670 So he's now governor of Maryland and just a tremendous, story 00:10:09.670 --> 00:10:12.350 of, of never giving up and. 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:19.430 So we're going into kind of some thematic questions and like we've already done 00:10:19.430 --> 00:10:23.840 what I was talking about is like the one track where we've done some brainstorming 00:10:23.870 --> 00:10:29.470 X knee hello, with a different essay, but, so now, we've dipped our toe 00:10:29.500 --> 00:10:34.920 into AI a little bit and they have, access to some models and I've, I've. 00:10:35.010 --> 00:10:39.520 I laid the groundwork through parent permissions, to get them that access. 00:10:39.670 --> 00:10:46.175 And and we've, I've given them some very, carefully structured prompts and, they've 00:10:46.175 --> 00:10:53.105 accessed some potential outlines and, and I've also had them use some brainstorming 00:10:53.105 --> 00:10:55.175 to create some thesis formula. 00:10:55.695 --> 00:10:56.085 so it's. 00:10:56.685 --> 00:11:00.195 The idea is to use AI more Socratically. 00:11:00.315 --> 00:11:06.030 and I got the idea from, con Conmigo, which is a, it's a commercial 00:11:06.030 --> 00:11:10.800 product out there that, con Conna Academy is, has put out and is 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:12.360 rolling out in a number of schools. 00:11:13.155 --> 00:11:18.855 And what's distinctive about their product is that it doesn't just like dump answers. 00:11:19.125 --> 00:11:22.725 like most AI models it, it will ask more questions. 00:11:22.780 --> 00:11:25.410 so I've created, prompts for my students that will. 00:11:26.550 --> 00:11:31.360 Not jump out, here's the thesis, but it says, here's like a formula that you have 00:11:31.365 --> 00:11:33.790 to then populate with your own ideas. 00:11:34.300 --> 00:11:38.110 so we're doing all of that, like on the front end of writing, and then 00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:42.230 we shift to a more of a concentrated human space where they're gonna 00:11:42.235 --> 00:11:44.630 be doing the writing and drafting. 00:11:45.170 --> 00:11:48.620 And then we'll come back after we have the drafting and we'll 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:50.750 get some commentary from ai. 00:11:51.260 --> 00:11:56.540 I have this, theory about AI that it's really only effective at the beginning 00:11:56.540 --> 00:11:59.070 and at the end of the writing phase. 00:11:59.190 --> 00:12:02.725 Like you, you have to, particularly at the end, you have to fill up 00:12:02.730 --> 00:12:06.775 the AI bucket, for it to start to do anything interesting. 00:12:07.195 --> 00:12:10.555 and I'm hoping, like I'm working with ninth graders now, so the 00:12:10.615 --> 00:12:13.195 AI literacy just beginning, but. 00:12:13.765 --> 00:12:17.815 I'm hoping as I work with, students that are older, we can start to get a 00:12:17.815 --> 00:12:22.675 little bit more sophisticated in the sense of, I would love to show them, 00:12:23.315 --> 00:12:28.620 how you can enter in information at a very low level and get a certain kind 00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:33.840 of response, but if you really want AI to help you write something super 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.410 specific, then it's a much more like. 00:12:36.965 --> 00:12:42.155 Involved process and what actually is revealed is like, there's a lot of 00:12:42.155 --> 00:12:47.765 specific kind of writing that takes place between you and the model. 00:12:48.365 --> 00:12:52.160 And I'm thinking like down the line, like what is writing 00:12:52.820 --> 00:12:54.260 instruction gonna look like? 00:12:54.310 --> 00:12:59.980 Like a lot of people are fearful that, okay, AI is gonna out mode English, as 00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:02.565 a subject, or writing as a discipline. 00:13:02.570 --> 00:13:07.040 I, in my conversations with folks, I'm like, no, it's just writing's changing. 00:13:07.090 --> 00:13:10.120 it's, we're just gonna be learning how to write more 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.500 functionally, and operationally. 00:13:13.130 --> 00:13:16.640 Jethro Jones: Nick, I think that's really valuable and very clear 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:19.000 that how we write is changing. 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.630 One of the things that I've seen, and the way that I described this 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.740 is that it's easy to get AI to do anything, but it's really hard to 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:28.690 get it to do one thing specifically. 00:13:29.170 --> 00:13:36.920 And so it's actually not easier for me to write with ai. 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:39.230 It's actually easier to write without ai. 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:43.850 Because I already know how I write and I already have the skills. 00:13:44.210 --> 00:13:47.060 And I think that this is a very interesting challenge because 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.960 especially as you're talking about these kids who were in school during 00:13:50.965 --> 00:13:56.450 the pandemic and probably did not have a ton of writing opportunities 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.440 and an opportunity to develop that writing, they don't have a voice. 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.490 And so when they ask the AI to write it, then. 00:14:04.850 --> 00:14:07.610 It's a really big deal because it produces something better 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:08.750 than what they could write. 00:14:09.050 --> 00:14:10.250 As far as they can tell. 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:15.710 When I ask the AI to write something, it is never as good as what I could write 00:14:16.130 --> 00:14:18.800 myself, at least in my opinion, right? 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:23.205 and so I think, I wouldn't use that word, I wouldn't write it that way, et cetera. 00:14:23.685 --> 00:14:26.475 And so we need to change. 00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:32.000 Our perspective about how we are writing things and be aware that is changing. 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.315 And I think that piece is the part that's really hard for teachers 00:14:36.495 --> 00:14:39.855 to grasp and appreciate because I. 00:14:40.545 --> 00:14:44.775 There's this nostalgic way that we used to do it, and then there's this new way 00:14:44.775 --> 00:14:48.685 that's scary and we don't understand it, and we don't, nobody really understands 00:14:48.685 --> 00:14:54.105 how these, transformers work so that, so that it actually produces the text. 00:14:54.105 --> 00:14:58.145 Even the people who are creating the algorithms to make it work, 00:14:58.445 --> 00:15:02.315 they don't even understand exactly how it's working and that part. 00:15:02.900 --> 00:15:04.100 It's scary for everybody. 00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:05.180 I totally get that. 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:08.700 So I like what you're saying about how you're going through that process. 00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:12.050 How, the AI is only helpful in the beginning and in the end. 00:15:13.130 --> 00:15:15.225 can you talk a little bit about your. 00:15:16.445 --> 00:15:20.545 Your writing and how much you use it, and if it is, something that is 00:15:20.545 --> 00:15:24.135 helping you or hindering you as you're writing your sub substack posts that 00:15:24.135 --> 00:15:26.315 are so good and detail oriented. 00:15:26.685 --> 00:15:29.955 what's your experience with your own personal writing as opposed to your 00:15:29.955 --> 00:15:31.575 teaching writing to your students? 00:15:33.210 --> 00:15:34.425 Nick Potkalitsky: That's a great question. 00:15:34.575 --> 00:15:40.370 so AI has changed the way I write because I do use it as, a finishing agent. 00:15:40.520 --> 00:15:44.790 and using it as a finishing agent has freed me up, to 00:15:44.790 --> 00:15:46.980 just write Torrance of text. 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:51.120 I used to be, a highly, critical, writer. 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:56.230 And what I mean by critical is like critiquing ideas as I was writing 00:15:56.230 --> 00:16:03.770 them and, worrying about, okay, how's this gonna look at the end product? 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:08.500 and And that kind of would plant sort of a seed of doubt in me, 00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:14.100 about, ultimate purpose and about how it was gonna land with audience. 00:16:14.400 --> 00:16:20.390 And, and then I'm not saying that AI is ultimately doing all that 00:16:20.510 --> 00:16:26.360 finishing for me, but for some reason kind of me synergizing with ai. 00:16:27.765 --> 00:16:31.405 lifted a little bit of those that worry and those concerns. 00:16:31.505 --> 00:16:36.095 in to, with, I've done a PhD and I've grappled with my 00:16:36.095 --> 00:16:37.790 own writing demons now for I. 00:16:38.345 --> 00:16:39.245 20 years. 00:16:39.245 --> 00:16:45.095 So I mean like me com compared to how anxious of a writer I was in 00:16:45.125 --> 00:16:47.165 undergrad compared to how I am now. 00:16:47.165 --> 00:16:51.185 I've just gotten a little bit quicker each year and a little bit less critical. 00:16:51.335 --> 00:16:56.085 But now like with AI in tow, it's like something's just happened with me. 00:16:56.445 --> 00:17:02.875 I'm truly grateful for it, because now when I like sit down, it's just, I know 00:17:02.875 --> 00:17:09.505 that I just, I need to give, these AI systems like the sort of the logical 00:17:09.510 --> 00:17:16.245 connections, between my ideas, like those that really is what it needs to do. 00:17:16.245 --> 00:17:18.485 A lot of its sort of polishing work. 00:17:18.965 --> 00:17:24.515 And so I just go in there and I'm like, I have these connections of the ideas. 00:17:24.515 --> 00:17:26.495 Like the ideas were always there for me. 00:17:27.045 --> 00:17:30.045 I'm just like slamming the ideas out, right? 00:17:30.125 --> 00:17:33.575 and I'm not worrying so much about the articulation. 00:17:34.205 --> 00:17:38.415 And then I get into a conversation with AI about the, like. 00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:40.170 What it looks like. 00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:45.701 And I let it do a first look through, and it will give me some, initial 00:17:45.701 --> 00:17:50.711 sort of, here's some things to consider, as you do some editing. 00:17:50.711 --> 00:17:55.940 So I'll allow it to give more like a laundry list of things to, to do 00:17:55.940 --> 00:18:01.251 as opposed to actually going through and, Kind of going through and 00:18:01.251 --> 00:18:03.670 actually revising all of the text. 00:18:04.270 --> 00:18:08.856 And then, with those directives in hand, usually I'll get to a 00:18:08.860 --> 00:18:10.926 place where it's almost, polished. 00:18:11.025 --> 00:18:15.466 I don't know, I've just become much more, more efficient and freer as a writer. 00:18:15.585 --> 00:18:18.885 and I'm in with doing the substack now once a week. 00:18:18.916 --> 00:18:20.811 I'm just in, in like maximum. 00:18:21.466 --> 00:18:26.296 performance zone, as a writer, where it's like I'm just feeding off 00:18:26.296 --> 00:18:30.876 the audience and I'm like nestled into like this, like amazing group 00:18:30.876 --> 00:18:33.245 of writers right now on Substack. 00:18:33.346 --> 00:18:39.360 like Alejandro and, Nat and Michael Rutenberg, like these, we, 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:43.501 I mean we're a small e in terms of the AI community on there. 00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:49.450 we've, we're just chopping up ideas and doing guest posts and helping 00:18:49.450 --> 00:18:56.511 lift each other and, it's just, it's like social media before social media, 00:18:56.610 --> 00:18:58.291 Jethro Jones: I know exactly what you're talking about. 00:18:58.591 --> 00:19:00.091 So let me ask you this question. 00:19:00.091 --> 00:19:06.645 As you've been using AI for your own work, your own writing, how has that 00:19:06.645 --> 00:19:12.841 helped you relate to and s helped students see where the AI is beneficial 00:19:12.841 --> 00:19:14.730 or not for what they're doing? 00:19:16.036 --> 00:19:19.076 Nick Potkalitsky: with me and my students, it's brought us down on the 00:19:19.076 --> 00:19:23.626 same kind of playing field in terms of we're all experimenters in this 00:19:23.626 --> 00:19:26.360 new field of, textual generation. 00:19:26.870 --> 00:19:33.701 Whereas, early on in January when I was very fearful of AI and was trying 00:19:33.701 --> 00:19:35.621 to keep it out of the classroom. 00:19:35.991 --> 00:19:40.576 and I'm talking about January of 2023, like that. 00:19:40.696 --> 00:19:43.631 To go back to my earlier point about trust, there was fear 00:19:43.631 --> 00:19:45.491 and suspicion in the classroom. 00:19:45.561 --> 00:19:46.221 now. 00:19:47.196 --> 00:19:52.545 We're in, in co-pilot mode, where I'm learning from their use as 00:19:52.545 --> 00:19:57.325 much as, they're learning from my experiments up on the board. 00:19:57.445 --> 00:20:00.850 so it, it's a much more, collaborative, a collaborative 00:20:00.850 --> 00:20:03.010 energy, collaborative atmosphere. 00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:05.170 and I think the. 00:20:05.590 --> 00:20:08.550 And this is something that I encourage, the teachers that I 00:20:08.550 --> 00:20:14.360 encounter is to have a, to have a culture of transparency around use. 00:20:14.520 --> 00:20:19.250 if you, as a teacher, if you're using it to generate any classroom materials. 00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:22.930 it's, I think it's a good thing to be forthright with students 00:20:23.620 --> 00:20:28.560 that you have leaned into, AI to, to generate those materials. 00:20:28.590 --> 00:20:34.780 Um, you, we get into sort of a weird space in, in K through 12 00:20:34.785 --> 00:20:39.395 where you have some teachers who are prohibiting, student use of AI and 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:41.730 yet using it to make their tests You. 00:20:42.220 --> 00:20:44.110 Jethro Jones: don't get me started on that hypocrisy. 00:20:44.110 --> 00:20:45.760 That drives me nuts. 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:46.870 Oh my goodness. 00:20:47.320 --> 00:20:52.420 one, I wanna share real quick how I'm using ai because I think that it's quite 00:20:52.425 --> 00:20:58.350 different than you in my own writing, because what I do is I basically will say, 00:20:58.350 --> 00:21:02.640 here's the idea that I have, or here's something that I've already written. 00:21:03.275 --> 00:21:04.625 how else would you say this? 00:21:04.625 --> 00:21:09.325 Or would you have a different idea for an analogy or something like that. 00:21:09.745 --> 00:21:14.305 And then I don't ever copy and paste it, although I have in the past. 00:21:14.645 --> 00:21:14.670 I. 00:21:15.165 --> 00:21:18.855 But every time I copied and pasted it, I just never felt like it was 00:21:18.855 --> 00:21:21.425 any good or that it was worthwhile. 00:21:21.425 --> 00:21:26.810 I'm in a doctoral program right now, and the temptation is certainly there, 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:30.775 especially on certain assignments to just have it do it because. 00:21:31.805 --> 00:21:36.455 The assignment is basically pointless and like it doesn't really matter. 00:21:36.455 --> 00:21:42.425 And on those situations, I definitely want to use AI because when the assignment 00:21:42.425 --> 00:21:48.335 is pointless, then it's, it's really difficult to give it time and attention. 00:21:48.725 --> 00:21:53.395 And so if the assignment, what I'm doing in those situations where 00:21:53.395 --> 00:21:58.045 there's an assignment is I'm trying my hardest to figure out what the 00:21:58.045 --> 00:22:00.085 real purpose of the assignment is. 00:22:00.790 --> 00:22:05.590 How I can make it worthwhile for me in a different way that matters. 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:06.620 so that's. 00:22:06.935 --> 00:22:07.835 That's one thing. 00:22:08.045 --> 00:22:12.995 The other part of that is that when I do copy and paste it with one exception, 00:22:13.355 --> 00:22:16.355 which is I use an app called audio pen. 00:22:16.625 --> 00:22:24.515 Audio pen.ai, and what this tool does is it will take you speaking, 00:22:24.695 --> 00:22:29.495 which is something that I'm very comfortable with doing right, and it 00:22:29.495 --> 00:22:31.805 will take your speaking and turn that. 00:22:32.705 --> 00:22:36.365 Rambling, incoherent thought into something that is clear. 00:22:36.995 --> 00:22:42.305 That app, because of how I've set it up, has done the best job of taking my 00:22:42.305 --> 00:22:46.925 rambling, incoherent thoughts and turning them into something that is publishable. 00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:47.900 Nick Potkalitsky: Yeah. 00:22:48.020 --> 00:22:53.350 Jethro Jones: In writing and so that has been the biggest use case for me is being 00:22:53.350 --> 00:22:58.420 able to speak what I want to speak and then having the AI turn it into text. 00:22:58.430 --> 00:23:00.020 that is readable. 00:23:00.020 --> 00:23:04.985 And then I typically clean that up a bit and have it be, a little bit better. 00:23:04.985 --> 00:23:08.455 But that tool specifically has been the best one that I've used 00:23:08.455 --> 00:23:10.415 so far, and it works really well. 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:17.165 Even better than having an audio conversation with chat GBT, which I am 00:23:17.465 --> 00:23:19.445 really amazed at how good that is Also. 00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:21.290 Nick Potkalitsky: Yeah, no. 00:23:21.290 --> 00:23:26.150 I've seen people have audio pen in their workflows, and I've just 00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:28.760 never been able to, there's some. 00:23:29.345 --> 00:23:32.165 I'm just more of a type and think kind of person. 00:23:32.255 --> 00:23:38.005 But I can see you, the audio is probably something that you're, you would gravitate 00:23:38.005 --> 00:23:43.460 to, but yeah, I find the only time that I really copy and paste is like when 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:48.850 I have a particularly gnarly sentence, where I have three or four ideas blocking 00:23:48.850 --> 00:23:53.105 out and there's just like a verb that's really giving me some like issue. 00:23:53.825 --> 00:23:55.495 And I just need some help. 00:23:55.835 --> 00:23:59.735 I've had this problem historically throughout my writing career where 00:23:59.735 --> 00:24:04.845 it's just I hit sort of a block in my thinking, like how can I unwork this? 00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:10.160 And, when I was writing my dissertation, those sort of blocks would halt 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.380 my writing process sometimes for. 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:17.560 Five, six minutes, and now with sort of an AI tool, I can get a 00:24:17.560 --> 00:24:21.310 couple different options to, to play around with pretty quickly. 00:24:21.360 --> 00:24:27.410 yeah, but mostly it's I like how, I mostly work with, chat GPT, version 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:32.390 four, which has been acting really quite strange the past couple weeks. 00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:33.230 But, um. 00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:35.790 Jethro Jones: so let's. 00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:39.330 Let's stop there for a second because this is something else that is so 00:24:39.330 --> 00:24:43.560 fascinating is that it has been acting strange and it's been doing 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:48.410 bizarre things and we don't really understand why it's doing that. 00:24:48.800 --> 00:24:53.210 But if you don't have those basic skills already. 00:24:53.780 --> 00:24:56.000 That could throw you for a real loop. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.830 I was, I'm in a chat with someone and they said that they, that they 00:24:59.830 --> 00:25:05.140 were doing something with getting a, some sort of Japanese flower 00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:07.670 folding, thing for their wife. 00:25:07.670 --> 00:25:09.890 And they know Japanese so they know what it is, but they didn't 00:25:09.890 --> 00:25:11.090 wanna translate it themselves. 00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:15.230 They put it into chat, GPT, and it translated into a story about 00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:18.920 somebody killing someone else instead of teaching you how to, 00:25:19.310 --> 00:25:20.960 how to fold this flower correctly. 00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:26.340 and what's so fascinating is that if this goes back to that whole 00:25:26.340 --> 00:25:29.640 literacy piece, that if you don't know what you're doing already. 00:25:30.330 --> 00:25:33.870 Then you could really be in a lot of trouble with it. 00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:36.760 and that's really what learning is all about, right? 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:40.300 That we wanna teach people to know how to do the things that we're doing. 00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.990 And in, in one of your subsets, I don't remember which one, you linked 00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:50.720 something from, AI for education, io that talked about, about one, there was 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:52.430 a flow chart and one of the things said. 00:25:53.285 --> 00:25:56.705 If you're skipping the learning, you're doing it wrong, consider 00:25:56.735 --> 00:26:00.485 using AI in a different way and like that piece is just so important. 00:26:00.545 --> 00:26:02.945 We, we shouldn't be skipping the learning. 00:26:03.375 --> 00:26:04.360 any thoughts on that? 00:26:04.360 --> 00:26:05.860 On the skipping the learning part, I. 00:26:08.725 --> 00:26:13.010 Nick Potkalitsky: the absolute worst outcome of this whole, situation is that, 00:26:13.230 --> 00:26:15.755 it becomes a prosthesis for learning. 00:26:16.325 --> 00:26:21.690 that, and that we have a whole generation of students that somehow, you know. 00:26:23.345 --> 00:26:29.365 Skip over the cognitive, gains that come from having, the sustained critical 00:26:29.370 --> 00:26:31.285 engagement with a writing process. 00:26:31.365 --> 00:26:35.895 I think a writing process can take a lot of different forms and different shapes. 00:26:35.895 --> 00:26:42.005 It can be, multimodal, and it's our job as educators and particularly, writing 00:26:42.005 --> 00:26:48.495 and structure instructors to invite students into a deep, critical engagement. 00:26:48.985 --> 00:26:55.595 ethical aesthetic, philosophical, Rhetorical, these sort of deep engagements 00:26:55.645 --> 00:26:58.105 with texts and whatever form they come. 00:26:58.105 --> 00:27:02.365 we, and you can stage that in a number of different ways depending upon where 00:27:02.365 --> 00:27:04.165 your students are developmentally. 00:27:04.795 --> 00:27:08.470 but if, I think there's gonna be a tipping point, as we think about 00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:10.720 implementations and integrations. 00:27:11.900 --> 00:27:15.720 where these processes, will start to encroach on some 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.070 of that critical thinking. 00:27:17.550 --> 00:27:22.280 and that's where we have to be, have that overseeing or that, and that, Also 00:27:22.280 --> 00:27:27.910 hold on to a vision, that I think are going to ultimately, like the only way 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:31.980 that we're gonna be able to maintain it is by establishing some principles or, 00:27:32.430 --> 00:27:37.420 and some outcomes that we wanna see from these, syner synergistic kind of spaces. 00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:42.770 so like in my most recent post, I was starting to plan out some ai. 00:27:43.490 --> 00:27:49.910 Learning outcomes, that, that were, that, I wanna continue to think about. 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:54.575 and there are also, there are a lot of like isti, and there's quadruple 00:27:54.580 --> 00:27:58.325 a, which is a big a ai, promotion. 00:27:59.165 --> 00:28:03.195 Organization, but they have an educational wing, like they're a company or 00:28:03.435 --> 00:28:08.495 organizations that are building these like deep, literacy programs, that I 00:28:08.495 --> 00:28:15.100 think are gonna help us to structure our practices, and help teachers build up some 00:28:15.100 --> 00:28:18.730 sort of watch points or criteria to, to. 00:28:19.775 --> 00:28:23.015 think about, is this particular implementation 00:28:23.095 --> 00:28:25.015 maintaining critical thinking? 00:28:25.615 --> 00:28:27.535 Are we giving away too much? 00:28:27.635 --> 00:28:30.110 it's gonna, I think a lot of it will just come down to sort of 00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:36.530 like, um, costs and and benefits for particular implementations. 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:38.870 so when I was at a conference out. 00:28:40.325 --> 00:28:41.075 Philadelphia. 00:28:41.075 --> 00:28:46.145 A couple weeks ago, I did a training with teachers from across the Eastern 00:28:46.145 --> 00:28:51.365 seaboard where I walked them through a AI writing process and, we used 00:28:51.365 --> 00:28:57.535 AI to do brainstorming, and then initial drafting and then editing. 00:28:58.165 --> 00:29:03.965 And I had them go through like a five scale, like a valuation of, How did 00:29:03.965 --> 00:29:10.445 AI do you know, and I, the major like criteria that we were working on, was 00:29:10.445 --> 00:29:14.980 like, knowledge and skills generation, like was there new knowledge being 00:29:14.980 --> 00:29:17.470 generated through the integration of ai? 00:29:17.470 --> 00:29:19.450 Were there new skills being generated? 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:21.270 I think we need something like that. 00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:26.750 like some sort of like solid criteria that we can use to evaluate use. 00:29:26.750 --> 00:29:28.040 Because like right now it's. 00:29:29.135 --> 00:29:30.635 It's pretty ambiguous. 00:29:30.685 --> 00:29:34.290 I don't know, like the, at the conference there was like, the 00:29:34.290 --> 00:29:38.650 value they were throwing out was like, human centered, right? 00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:40.190 is our integration? 00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:44.090 Is it helping us keep education human centered? 00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:46.980 And that's, that's like a good big idea. 00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:50.320 But it seems, there's also like other things underneath that, 00:29:50.325 --> 00:29:51.885 like what, what exactly does. 00:29:53.370 --> 00:29:57.630 so that's gonna be the work I think of the next couple months, maybe 00:29:57.630 --> 00:30:02.740 year, of figuring out those criteria, for evaluating implementations. 00:30:03.905 --> 00:30:04.805 Jethro Jones: let me ask you this. 00:30:04.855 --> 00:30:10.475 what would be your suggestions or advice to, teachers who are resistant 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.745 to doing anything with it, and how would you encourage them to? 00:30:14.285 --> 00:30:19.755 Um, I don't wanna say speed up the adoption of ai, but at the 00:30:19.755 --> 00:30:24.415 same time I wanna say like, don't run fearfully from it. 00:30:24.865 --> 00:30:26.940 How, what would be your advice? 00:30:29.415 --> 00:30:32.835 Nick Potkalitsky: So I had several people in the room in my training who 00:30:32.835 --> 00:30:39.575 were resistant and fearful and, the power, and the willingness comes from 00:30:39.575 --> 00:30:42.635 actually just engaging with the tools. 00:30:42.935 --> 00:30:48.375 and and I'm working with, A guy, right now in Australia, developing some, 00:30:49.115 --> 00:30:54.335 some leadership, training materials because, the major stop gap right now 00:30:54.335 --> 00:31:00.265 for AI integration and K through 12, it's, instructional leaders who are 00:31:00.265 --> 00:31:06.100 slowing down the process and, they're in a, a position of tremendous, trust. 00:31:06.625 --> 00:31:08.395 And they want to get it right. 00:31:08.575 --> 00:31:12.665 and I think like part of our vision for this, these training 00:31:12.665 --> 00:31:13.865 materials are just kind of. 00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:19.020 coaxing leaders just to sit down and use the products, as part 00:31:19.020 --> 00:31:21.240 of an acculturation process. 00:31:21.290 --> 00:31:23.120 what can these actually do? 00:31:23.570 --> 00:31:28.110 I think once you sit down, when you sit down immediately and you ask or right 00:31:28.110 --> 00:31:32.080 away and you see it, that it can create a sonnet, like that's, that sort of 00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:34.915 blows you away and you're like, oh, wow. 00:31:34.945 --> 00:31:35.215 the. 00:31:36.085 --> 00:31:40.405 there's no nothing that you know, that these machines can't do. 00:31:40.435 --> 00:31:45.925 But, as you prompt away with it for, a half hour, then you start to see 00:31:46.645 --> 00:31:49.075 the limitations, the repetitions. 00:31:49.075 --> 00:31:52.120 You start to see the hollowness of the text. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.710 you start to ask it questions about the text, and three prompts in that, 00:31:57.710 --> 00:31:59.360 the level of understanding just. 00:32:00.545 --> 00:32:03.475 Maybe it gets a little bit, blurry. 00:32:03.535 --> 00:32:06.475 and I don't know, you, you start to understand the way 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.445 it works and, once you get 00:32:09.375 --> 00:32:12.405 Jethro Jones: I may be so bold as to say anybody who's still 00:32:12.405 --> 00:32:14.835 worried about plagiarism. 00:32:15.330 --> 00:32:20.040 Has never used the tool because once you use the tool you realize this really 00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:22.440 isn't a worry because it's not there yet. 00:32:22.620 --> 00:32:26.165 It's, it cannot mimic a person's voice that well. 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:30.915 And you can tell, and when I read things online, I can tell almost all the 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.070 time that is done and generated by ai. 00:32:34.540 --> 00:32:38.500 There are little key words and phrases that are like, okay, that a 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.030 real person doesn't write that way. 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:43.300 However, I think real people are going to start writing that way 'cause they're 00:32:43.305 --> 00:32:44.710 gonna be mimicking what they see. 00:32:44.740 --> 00:32:49.190 Just as a little side note, not to get us too off course, but, so as we 00:32:49.190 --> 00:32:51.290 close up here, Nick, this was awesome. 00:32:51.540 --> 00:32:54.210 in the show notes, if it's okay with you, you put a. 00:32:54.495 --> 00:32:58.605 A great outline of your process of how you've gone through learning 00:32:58.605 --> 00:33:02.085 about this and a few different links to yours and other substack 00:33:02.085 --> 00:33:04.515 that were just really powerful. 00:33:04.515 --> 00:33:07.575 I'm gonna leave those in the show notes so that people can check that out. 00:33:07.575 --> 00:33:11.485 We didn't have a chance to go into all of those things, but they, I 00:33:11.485 --> 00:33:14.485 thought they were really good and really interesting, and so I want 00:33:14.485 --> 00:33:15.895 people to be able to check those out. 00:33:16.315 --> 00:33:19.525 How can people connect with you and learn more about the stuff that you're doing? 00:33:19.525 --> 00:33:19.855 Nick? 00:33:21.395 --> 00:33:23.565 Nick Potkalitsky: you can reach out to me on Substack. 00:33:23.725 --> 00:33:25.960 you can also find me on LinkedIn. 00:33:26.620 --> 00:33:32.440 So you could also set, shoot me an email at, at ky@gmail.com. 00:33:32.860 --> 00:33:38.585 So I'm excited to help, schools, make a transition into this AI space. 00:33:38.885 --> 00:33:42.555 Uh, and thank you, Jethro for setting up this interview. 00:33:42.615 --> 00:33:44.925 It was an amazing time. 00:33:44.985 --> 00:33:49.770 I think we really broke some new ground here, You're a good guide on this. 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.230 Jethro Jones: thank you very much and I appreciate you being here. 00:33:53.230 --> 00:33:54.340 This was a lot of fun. 00:33:54.340 --> 00:33:57.740 I hope that this is not our last, conversation together 00:33:57.745 --> 00:33:59.485 because I think that l. 00:34:00.095 --> 00:34:04.385 Like I said, we barely scratch the surface of what we could have talked about. 00:34:04.385 --> 00:34:08.910 And so I think this was a good start, for, for this podcast and definitely 00:34:08.910 --> 00:34:10.555 something that, I wanna stay in touch on. 00:34:10.555 --> 00:34:15.255 So, uh, links to his, Substack and LinkedIn are in the show notes, 00:34:15.465 --> 00:34:19.875 so definitely go, go check that out at a vision for learning.com.